Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11191

 1                           Thursday, 3 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness take the solemn declaration,

 7     please.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 9     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  BARRY HOGAN

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please be seated.

12             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  One quick housekeeping

14     matter before we commence.  In discussions with -- or following

15     discussions with the Registry, I simply wanted to note that with respect

16     to the last video-clip played yesterday, the conclusion is that the most

17     efficient approach would be to give that clip a new 65 ter number, which

18     would be 40202H, and then assign a new exhibit number to that.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be done.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the exhibit number will be Exhibit

21     P2184.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Hayden.  Good morning to you.

23             MR. HAYDEN:  Good morning, Mr. President.

24                           Examination by Mr. Hayden:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hogan.  If you can state your full name for the

Page 11192

 1     record.

 2        A.   Barry Alan Hogan.

 3        Q.   And you're an investigator with the Office of the Prosecutor?

 4        A.   I am.

 5        Q.   How long have you worked in the Office of the Prosecutor?

 6        A.   I was first here from October 1998 to October 2004, left the

 7     Tribunal for a period of time, and then I came back in March 2006, and up

 8     until the present time.

 9        Q.   And prior to working with the OTP, had you had any experience in

10     investigative work?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Can you briefly elaborate on that experience?

13        A.   I was a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police from 1975

14     until I joined the Tribunal in 1998.

15        Q.   And aside from your work with the ICTY, have you had any

16     experience working in the former Yugoslavia?

17        A.   Yes, I have.  When I was still with the Mounted Police, the

18     Royal Canadian Mounted Police, I was seconded to UNPROFOR for a period of

19     one year, from May 1992 to May 1993.

20        Q.   Now, during your work as an investigator with the OTP, have you

21     worked on any Sarajevo-related investigations?

22        A.   Yes, I did.  I worked on the Stanislav Galic case from

23     January 2000 until I moved to the Banja Luka field office in June of

24     2002, and from March 2006, when I rejoined the Tribunal, I was assigned

25     to the case of Dragomir Milosevic, involving Sarajevo.

Page 11193

 1        Q.   And as part of those investigations, did you travel to Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.  I've been to Sarajevo dozens of times over the

 3     years.

 4        Q.   Now, before exploring further issues related to those Sarajevo

 5     investigations, I want to ask you some questions concerning the

 6     provenance of certain document collections of the OTP.

 7             Have you ever been involved in efforts to obtain documents from

 8     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

 9        A.   Yes, I have.

10        Q.   Can you briefly describe when you first engaged in those efforts

11     and the nature of those efforts.

12        A.   When I was first assigned to the case involving Stanislav Galic

13     and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, I started sending formal requests for

14     assistance to both the Republika Srpska and the -- and the Federation of

15     BiH and to the government of Serbia in efforts to locate the archives.

16        Q.   And were those initial efforts successful?

17        A.   No.  All the efforts that I made and others made over the years

18     were fruitless until June of 2006.

19        Q.   And can you briefly describe to the Court what happened in

20     June 2006 and how it was you came to locate those documents.

21        A.   I might have misspoken.  It might not have been 2006.  It might

22     have been 2007.  I would have to check my reports.  But in any case, the

23     Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina had amalgamated the armies.

24     The Army of Republika Srpska and Army of ABiH were amalgamated into one

25     state military.  Orders had been sent out to gather the archives from

Page 11194

 1     both armies into central locations.  We were notified -- we at the

 2     Tribunal were notified that these archives had been assembled, and as a

 3     result, I accompanied a colleague to the archives at the Kozara barracks

 4     in Banja Luka to do research, to discover the extent of those archives.

 5     I subsequently led a mission of 11 other colleagues to do -- to gather

 6     scanned images of various documents.

 7        Q.   Aside -- aside from documents from the SRK, were there documents

 8     from any other parts of the VRS in the Kozara barracks archives?

 9        A.   Yes.  The archives were quite extensive, but on the mission that

10     I led in June and July of that year, we limited ourselves to the

11     SRK collection, Main Staff collection, Drina Corps, East Bosnia Corps,

12     and there was a separate room for Ministry of Defence documents, which

13     we -- which we also researched.

14        Q.   Focusing on the SRK documents, how exactly did you obtain the

15     documents?  For example, did you seize the originals or were copies made?

16        A.   The -- the originals -- by agreement, the originals stayed in the

17     archives.  As we selected various documents, we scanned them on site.  We

18     had two electronic scanners with us, and we scanned those original

19     documents and returned the originals to the archives.

20        Q.   And did you obtain all the SRK documents that were in the

21     Kozara barracks?

22        A.   No.  The -- the collection was much too extensive to copy all of

23     the documents.  We -- I believe it was between 6 and 7.000 pages that we

24     scanned, and as a rough estimate, it was somewhere between 5 and

25     10 per cent of the total collection of the SRK that we -- that we copied.

Page 11195

 1        Q.   And what criterion did you and others on the mission employ to

 2     decide what to copy and what not to copy?

 3        A.   We were looking for, obviously, inculpatory documents, because

 4     the purpose of the SRK research was to support the case against

 5     Dragomir Milosevic.  We were also looking for exculpatory documents

 6     which -- for disclosure to the Defence team in this and other cases, and

 7     we were trying to get a comprehensive picture of the daily combat

 8     reports, so we copied as many of those as we could locate.

 9        Q.   And in your view, was the collection a comprehensive collection

10     insofar as the -- as it relates to the years 1992 to 1995?

11        A.   No.  We noticed that there were obvious gaps, obviously missing

12     documents, especially apparent when binders of documents were arranged

13     chronologically and dates were missing from the binders.  We also noticed

14     that some documents that referred to previous orders or previously

15     numbered reports, when we looked for those other reports, we could not

16     locate them where they were supposed to be.

17        Q.   Did you make any inquiries with the staff at the archives with

18     respect to those apparently missing documents?

19        A.   I did.  I raised this issue with the chief archivist while we

20     were doing our research, and he offered an explanation that everything

21     that had been sent in from the various locations was included in these

22     archives which we were researching, but in his opinion, when officers

23     were leaving service or leaving various units, they would have taken some

24     of the original documents with them for their personal collections, and

25     therefore they were not available in these archives.

Page 11196

 1        Q.   And was the same process that you've described here with respect

 2     to the criteria employed for choosing the documents, was that same

 3     process applied to the other document collections, the Main Staff, the

 4     Drina Corps, et cetera?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And was there phenomena of missing documents that you observed in

 7     the SRK collection also observed in those other collections?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, you mentioned before that you have been involved in Sarajevo

10     investigations and that you have spent considerable time in Sarajevo as

11     part of those investigations.

12             MR. HAYDEN:  I'd like to turn to some images in the Prosecution's

13     Sarajevo-specific map book and ask for 65 ter 21213.  And this is map --

14     or image number 3 in the map book for those that have it in front of

15     them.

16        Q.   What should appear on the screen, Mr. Hogan, is a photograph.

17     There you have it before you.  It's actually a panoramic photograph, and

18     I'm not sure if all of it fits on our screen, so we'll see how we cope.

19             Do you know who took this photograph?

20        A.   Yes.  Excuse me.  This photograph was taken by OTP photographer

21     Zoran Lesic, and I was with him when he obtained this panoramic photo.

22        Q.   And where was the photograph taken from?

23        A.   This was on the Pale road, just at the foot of Mount Trebevic,

24     and this -- this view is looking north over the eastern and central part

25     of Sarajevo.

Page 11197

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  Now, if I can ask for the assistance of the

 2     Court Usher, I'd like to have Mr. Hogan mark some features on this

 3     photograph.

 4        Q.   Are you able --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 6     questions and answers for the benefit of interpreters.  Thank you.

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   If I can ask you to mark the state hospital, if you can see it,

 9     on the photograph there.

10        A.   I'm afraid this photograph is cropped.  Both edges are cropped,

11     so it doesn't appear.

12        Q.   We can return to another image where that might appear.  Now, can

13     you see the Kosevo hospital?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   If you can circle that and mark it with number 1, please.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And the Presidency.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And again mark this one with number 2, please.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   And finally, are you able to locate Markale Market on this

22     photograph?

23        A.   I'm afraid I can't see enough detail on this.  It might be off

24     the right edge.

25             MR. HAYDEN:  I -- I take it from the Registry that this is the

Page 11198

 1     full image that we're able to bring up on e-court.  Thank you.

 2             Okay.  We'll leave that and ask that this image be tendered into

 3     evidence.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Can you put your initial -- signature and the date.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 6             MR. HAYDEN:  The next image I want to go to is number 4 in the

 7     map book, and this is 14665.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give the next -- the Prosecution exhibit

 9     number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit P2185.

11             MR. HAYDEN:  And if we can have 14665, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hayden, I don't understand why we can't upload

13     the whole picture of page 3 of that map book.  Page 4 is uploaded in

14     e-court as it is.

15             MR. HAYDEN:  Let me just --

16             JUDGE KWON:  The full panoramic view is uploaded.  So could you

17     check it later.

18             MR. HAYDEN:  Certainly.  Let me just consult with Mr. Reid.

19             JUDGE KWON:  This is -- yes.

20             MR. HAYDEN:  We might return to the third image if we are able to

21     upload the panoramic version.  This is map number 4 we now see in front

22     of us.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's it.

24             MR. HAYDEN:

25        Q.   Again, do you know who took this photograph, Mr. Hogan?

Page 11199

 1        A.   This photograph was also obtained by Zoran Lesic, and I was in

 2     company with him when he took these -- this panoramic photo.

 3        Q.   And which direction -- well, sorry.  Firstly from which location

 4     is it taken?

 5        A.   This was taken from Vraca park in Sarajevo, and it's looking

 6     north.

 7        Q.   And which part of Sarajevo does it depict?

 8        A.   This is the -- this is the central part of Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   I think we're being reminded to leave pauses between our

10     questions and answers.

11             Again using the pen, I'll ask you to point out some features for

12     the Court.  The first one is Hum hill.  If you can mark it with number 1.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Pofalici, number 2.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Velesici, number 3.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   The high-rise buildings in Grbavica, number 4.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   The location of the Marsal Tito Barracks, number 5.

21        A.   [Marks] I'm afraid I'll have to mark an arrow, because the

22     location is actually hidden behind those high-rise buildings.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The Holiday Inn with number 6.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   The Unis towers with number 7.

Page 11200

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   The Metalka building with number 8.

 3        A.   Is it possible to zoom this in just a fraction?

 4        Q.   I think we'll lose the markings if we zoom in on the image.

 5        A.   Okay.  I can manage here.  [Marks]

 6        Q.   The Assembly building with number 9.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   The state hospital that we couldn't see in the previous image

 9     with number 10.

10        A.   And again, my circle for number 9 sort of encompasses the state

11     hospital, so I'll put an arrow at the state hospital.  [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Grdonj with number 11.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And finally, Sharpstone with number 12.

15        A.   [Marks]

16             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender this for the next Prosecution exhibit.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Could you put your signature and date again,

18     Mr. Hogan.

19             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2186, Your Honours.

22             MR. HAYDEN:  If I can ask for 21214, please, and this is number 5

23     in the map book.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE KWON:  There's a technical problem with the previous

Page 11201

 1     marking.  The Registrar was not able to capture his signature and date,

 2     so could you put it -- they will publish the image so that the witness

 3     can mark the -- put his signature again.

 4             Could you kindly put your signature.  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you.  65 ter 21214 is the next image, which is

 8     number 5 in the book.

 9        Q.   Do you know where this image was taken from and who took this

10     photograph?

11        A.   Yes, I do.  This was obtained once again by Zoran Lesic.  It was

12     during the same mission as the previous photographs that we've seen.

13     However, he was in a hospital at the time.  I was not with him.  And the

14     helicopter was in the area over Novi Grad in Sarajevo.

15        Q.   If you can point out the following features:  The area of

16     Alipasino Polje with number 1, please.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Are you able to see the PTT building in this image, Mr. Hogan?

19        A.   No.  It's just to the left, just a little bit west of the end of

20     this photograph.

21        Q.   And the TV building with number 2.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   The general area of Vitkovac with number 3.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   And the general area of Boljakov Potok with number 4.

Page 11202

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And finally, the Miljacka River, the parts you can see, with

 3     number 5, please.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   I tender this as the next exhibit, with your signature and date,

 6     please, Mr. Hogan.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2187, Your Honours.

10             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you.  21215, number 6 in the map book.

11        Q.   Again, do you know who took this image and where that photograph

12     was taken from?

13        A.   Yes.  Again it was taken by Zoran Lesic.  He was again in the

14     helicopter during the same mission, and I was not with him.  It was -- I

15     believe the helicopter appears to be hovering just over the

16     Jewish Cemetery, looking north.

17        Q.   And on this image, can you please mark the following with

18     number 1, the location of the Marsal Tito Barracks.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   With number 2, the Holiday Inn.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Number 3, the Assembly building.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   With number 4, the museum.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 11203

 1        Q.   Number 5, the Metalka building.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And finally, with number 6, Vrbanja Bridge.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And please append your signature and today's date.

 6             MR. HAYDEN:  And I ask that that be the next exhibit.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2188, Your Honours.

10             MR. HAYDEN:  And the final photograph we'll look at in this book

11     is 21216, which is image number 7.

12        Q.   I take it that this image again was taken by Mr. Zoran Lesic from

13     a helicopter.  Approximately, if you know, do you know where the

14     helicopter was hovering above?

15        A.   Yes, I do.  It appears that the Holiday Inn is just in the direct

16     foreground, so the helicopter would have been just directly above the

17     Holiday Inn.

18        Q.   And which way are we facing?

19        A.   This is facing south.

20        Q.   And I'll ask you to mark with a number 1 again the

21     Metalka building.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And with a number 2, if you can circle and mark the S-curve, the

24     tram track S-curve.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 11204

 1        Q.   And please, today's date and signature again, and this is the

 2     next Prosecution exhibit.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this is admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2189, Your Honours.

 6             MR. HAYDEN:  Your Honour, with respect to the first image that we

 7     had difficulty with, I'm asked if the Court Officer could release 21213,

 8     and Mr. Reid tells me he's able to fix that problem shortly thereafter,

 9     and we might return to that image later.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. HAYDEN:  Meanwhile, I ask for 13318, please.  Sorry, the

12     number was 13318.

13        Q.   What should appear on the screen in front of, Mr. Hogan, is a

14     declaration that has your signature on it from May 2009.  If we turn to

15     page 3, please.  And this is a list of Schedule F incidents from the

16     indictment.  Looking to the fourth column entitled "GPS," can you tell us

17     what information that contains?

18        A.   I physically attended each of the locations where these people

19     were wounded or where they witnessed people being wounded and killed in

20     company with a witness to the event.  I had a GPS unit which accesses

21     satellite signals to give an accurate reading of your location upon the

22     Earth.  These readings are north and east longitude/latitude readings to

23     locate the exact position where I was standing.

24        Q.   And just to clarify, that exact position was the position of the

25     victim or of the witness?

Page 11205

 1        A.   That was the position of the victim.

 2        Q.   If we could turn to page 6 of the same document.  This is a list

 3     of Schedule G incidents, and we see the same fourth column.  Again, did

 4     you provide the information in this fourth column, the GPS readings?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   And what do those GPS readings depict?

 7        A.   Those readings depict the location where the shell impacted.

 8     In -- in some instances, there were multiple shells, so I picked one

 9     particular shell impact and took the reading from that.

10        Q.   And again, did you visit those locations with -- in the company

11     of a witness or victim?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13             MR. HAYDEN:  Could this please be the next Prosecution exhibit,

14     this declaration.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, except for those two pages.

16             MR. HAYDEN:  Yes.  We can make it from page 3 to 9.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2190, Your Honours.

19             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 13567, please.  This is map number 8 in the

20     map book.

21        Q.   Do you recognise this map, Mr. Hogan?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  I participated in the preparation of this map.

23        Q.   And what does this map depict?

24        A.   This is a map of Sarajevo with the scheduled shelling and sniping

25     incidents indicated on -- on the map.

Page 11206

 1        Q.   And I take it that the locations indicated correspond to the

 2     GPS readings we've seen in the now-admitted chart appended to your

 3     declaration; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5             MR. HAYDEN:  On that basis, Mr. President, I ask that this map

 6     also be admitted as a Prosecution exhibit.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2191, Your Honours.

 9             MR. HAYDEN:  There are a number of subsequent extracts or

10     blown-up portions of this map.  A few of them have already been admitted,

11     but two have not, and at this stage I'd ask the remainder to be admitted.

12     That's map number 12, which is 13578; and map number 14, which is 13529.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So the others are admitted without any markings.

14             MR. HAYDEN:  I believe that's correct.  They've been admitted

15     through other witnesses, without markings.

16             JUDGE KWON:  What was the exhibit number for map 13?

17             MR. HAYDEN:  According to my records, D617 [Realtime transcript

18     read in error "D167"].

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Map 12 and map 14 will be admitted.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P2192 and P2193, respectively,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             MR. HAYDEN:  And if I can just correct the transcript.  The

24     map 13 is D617.

25        Q.   Mr. Hogan, you've spoken about the fact that you went to the

Page 11207

 1     scheduled incident sites with either the victim or an eyewitness to that

 2     incident, and you took GPS readings.  When you went to those locations,

 3     did you also record footage?

 4        A.   Yes.  Once again my colleague, Zoran Lesic, with a camera crew

 5     filmed by video the location and took still photographs which were later

 6     turned into 360-degree digital images.

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  I'd like to take a look at those -- some of those

 8     360-degree photographs.  Mr. Registrar, can we move into Sanction,

 9     please, and Mr. Reid will pull up 65 ter 09536.  In the meantime, if I

10     can ask for 09536A to be uploaded into e-court, which we shall return to

11     shortly.

12        Q.   On the screen in front of you shortly -- in front of you right

13     now, is a 360-degree photograph that we're viewing in QuickTime.  Do you

14     recognise this as the location of scheduled incident F1?

15        A.   Yes.  This is the front door of the residence, exactly where the

16     young girl was standing when she was hit.

17        Q.   I'm going to shift across and move this about to the right, and

18     you can see we have a 360-degree view of that location.  If I stop the

19     image here, Mr. Hogan, are you able to point out on this photograph -- or

20     able to see on this photograph the ridge known as Baba Stijena?

21        A.   Unfortunately on this photograph it does not come through

22     clearly.  It was kind of a smoggy day.  We could see it with the naked

23     eye from this location when we were doing the filming.  It just does not

24     come through on the photograph.  I can point to the location where it

25     was, though -- or where it is.

Page 11208

 1        Q.   To do so, we will go back into e-court and ask for page 1 of

 2     09536A.  If you can use the pen, Mr. Hogan, and mark at least the general

 3     area where Baba Stijena is and where you could see with your naked eye

 4     from that location.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   And your signature and today's date, please.

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  And this is the next Prosecution exhibit.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be done.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2194, Your Honours.

10             MR. HAYDEN:  Moving back to Sanction, please, Mr. Registrar.

11     Moving to the next incident, F2.

12        Q.   Do you recognise this as the location of scheduled incident F2,

13     Mr. Hogan?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Now, are you able to point out to the Court the Sharpstone ridge,

16     or do you need this image moved around?

17        A.   It is visible in this -- if I can describe it.  It's in the V

18     between the two roofs directly in the midpoint of the photograph.  It's

19     partly obscured by the branches of that tree.

20        Q.   Moving back into e-court and turning to page 2 of the

21     65 ter number which we had on our screen.  And if you can take the pen

22     and mark what you've just described for the Court.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   And again your signature, today's date.

25             MR. HAYDEN:  And this is the next exhibit.

Page 11209

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2195, Your Honours.

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  Again back to Sanction, and this is

 4     scheduled incident F3.

 5        Q.   Mr. Hogan, I believe this location is on a riverbank.  I'm now

 6     moving the screen to the left.  As I move around, are you able to point

 7     out to the Court where the Orthodox church or the spire of the

 8     Orthodox church is in this image?

 9        A.   Yes, I am.  It's directly ahead, just adjacent to the -- the

10     larger of the apartment blocks on the right bank of this stream.

11        Q.   And moving back to e-court, page 3 of the 65 ter.  Once again,

12     I'd ask you to mark the spire with your pen.  If you need to zoom in on

13     the image, then please let us know.

14        A.   It would be helpful to zoom in somewhat.

15             MR. HAYDEN:  Mr. Registrar, if we can zoom in following down the

16     canal, I believe.

17             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

18             MR. HAYDEN:

19        Q.   Today's date and your signature.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             MR. HAYDEN:  This is the next exhibit.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  While that's done, could Chamber Legal Officer

23     approach the bench.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P2196.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

Page 11210

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  If we can move to the next page of the current

 3     exhibit in e-court.  We won't go to the 360-degree image, but we will

 4     seek to admit those, all of those, into evidence at the end of the first

 5     ten.  I'll do so when we come to that juncture.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise this as the location of incident F4, Mr. Hogan?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   In this image, which is a still taken from the 360-degree image,

 9     are you able to point out Ozrenska Street area on Hrasno hill or

10     Hrasno Brdo?

11        A.   Yes, it's just at the top of the ridge in the middle of the

12     photograph.

13        Q.   Please mark that area, today's date and your signature.

14             MR. HAYDEN:  And this is the next exhibit.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  P2197, Your Honours.

17             MR. HAYDEN:  The next page of this 65 ter, please.

18        Q.   Again this is a still taken from the 360-degree shot of scheduled

19     incident F5.  Do you recognise this as the location of that

20     scheduled incident, Mr. Hogan?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Can you point out to the Court, again using the pen, the polje or

23     field from which, according to the information you received, the fire

24     came from?

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 11211

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  This is the next exhibit.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  P2198, Your Honours.

 4             MR. HAYDEN:  I ask for Exhibit P1803, please.  This is from

 5     page 11 of the map book.

 6        Q.   And I'll ask you, Mr. Hogan, just to quickly indicate to the

 7     Court where this location is on that map and where the field that you

 8     have just marked is in relation to that location when the map comes up.

 9        A.   In the top left-hand corner of the map, the red dot with the

10     number 5 is the spot from where that photograph was taken.  And if you'd

11     like me to circle --

12        Q.   Please circle the field that you also circled in the photograph.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Again, your signature and today's date.

15             MR. HAYDEN:  And I admit this into evidence, please,

16     Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2199, Your Honours.

19             MR. HAYDEN:

20        Q.   Returning to 09536A, and turning to page 6.  Do you recognise

21     this as the location of incident F6, Mr. Hogan?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Again, this is a screen shot from the panorama or the 360-degree

24     photograph.  I'll ask you to mark two things on this photo.  The first is

25     the spire of the Orthodox church with the number 1.

Page 11212

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   The second is any other building -- or any building in that

 3     direction which, according to the information you received, was under the

 4     control of the VRS at the time of this incident.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Mark that with number 2, please.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Today's date and your signature.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender this into evidence.

11             JUDGE KWON:  2200, Exhibit P2200.

12             MR. HAYDEN:  P1739, please, map number 10 of the map book.

13        Q.   On the map that will come up on your screen, Mr. Hogan, I'd ask

14     you to mark, firstly, the location of this incident and then point out

15     where the Orthodox church and the building you've just marked is in

16     relation to that location.

17        A.   This incident and the photograph we just saw was taken here on

18     this bridge with the number 6.  Shall I mark that with a number 1?

19        Q.   I think it's sufficiently marked as number 6.

20        A.   The spire of the Orthodox church is here.

21        Q.   And you've marked that with number 1.

22        A.   And that corner of that building is this building here.

23        Q.   And you've marked that with number 2.  Today's date, your

24     signature.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 11213

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  This is the next exhibit.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2201, Your Honours.

 4             MR. HAYDEN:  Back to 09536A, please, and page number 7.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise this as the location of incident F7?

 6        A.   I recognise the location, but if you could refresh my memory

 7     which --

 8        Q.   Certainly --

 9        A.   F7, which incident that was.

10        Q.   -- this is an alleged incident occurring on the 25th of May,

11     1994.  And if you give me two seconds.

12        A.   Yes, I do recall now.  This is in Dobrinja, yes, with the bus.

13        Q.   Yes, scheduled incident F7, Sehadeta Plivac and Hajra Hafizovic

14     were the alleged victims.  Now this is, again, a screen shot from the

15     360-degree, and in this photograph are you able to point out the area of

16     Nedzarici?

17        A.   Nedzarici is towards the end of the street.  It's not actually

18     visible on this photograph, but if you continue in a straight line, at

19     the end of the street you would reach Nedzarici.

20        Q.   Perhaps if you could draw an arrow in the direction of Nedzarici

21     down that road.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And your signature and today's date, please.

24             MR. HAYDEN:  And this is the next exhibit.

25             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 11214

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next exhibit.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2202, Your Honours.

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  Turning to page 8 of this exhibit -- sorry, the same

 4     65 ter number.

 5        Q.   In this photograph, Mr. Hogan, do you recognise it as the

 6     location of scheduled incident F8, incident of 19 June 1994?

 7        A.   I recognise it as the location which was pointed out to me by one

 8     of the victims that was on the tram, but I must point out that with --

 9     with the tram sniping incidents, they were moving at the time that they

10     were hit by bullets, so to say that this is the precise location where

11     the incident happened, it -- it could be within various metres of this

12     precise location.

13        Q.   And in this photograph, can you point out the area of the

14     Jewish Cemetery?

15        A.   It's not very well visible, but it is in this area here.

16        Q.   Your signature and today's date, please.

17        A.   [Marks]

18             MR. HAYDEN:  This is the next exhibit.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  P2203, Your Honours.

21             MR. HAYDEN:  Turning to page 9 of this 65 ter number.

22        Q.   Again a still from the 360-degree photograph.  In this photograph

23     which relates to scheduled incident F9, can you point out the building

24     known as the Institute for the Blind?

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 11215

 1        Q.   Today's date and your signature.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  And this is the next exhibit.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P2204.

 5             MR. HAYDEN:  Page 10 of this 65 ter, please.

 6        Q.   This relates to scheduled incident F10.  On this photograph,

 7     Mr. Hogan, can you point out the area on Hrasno hill or Hrasno Brdo in

 8     particular houses on Zagorska Street, if possible.

 9        A.   I'm afraid I can't make out Zagorska Street from this.  I don't

10     know which houses are on Zagorska Street, but it is in this area here.

11        Q.   Your signature, today's date.

12        A.   [Marks]

13             MR. HAYDEN:  This is the next exhibit.  65 ter 13578.

14             JUDGE KWON:  That will be Exhibit P2205.

15             MR. HAYDEN:  Sorry, I jumped the gun.  If I can bring up a map,

16     65 ter 13578, which is map 12 in the map book.

17        Q.   And on the map that will be brought up shortly, Mr. Hogan, I'll

18     again ask you to indicate the location of F10, scheduled incident F10,

19     and indicate where Hrasno Brdo is in relation to that incident, and, if

20     possible, to point out Zagorska Street.

21        A.   I'm circling the incident F10.  I'm making a large circle around

22     Hrasno Brdo, and I will draw a line down Zagorska Street.  Oops.  Sorry.

23     And circle the name "Zagorska."

24        Q.   And your signature, today's date.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 11216

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  And that's the next exhibit.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P2206.

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  At this stage, Mr. President, I tender into evidence

 4     09536.  That's the 360-degree photographs of F1 to F10 incidents which

 5     came from the Galic case, and Mr. Reid will provide those on a DVD, those

 6     ten files.  We ask for one exhibit number for those.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  You mean the 360-degree photograph that can be

 8     viewed by QuickTime Player.

 9             MR. HAYDEN:  That's correct.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I find it a bit ridiculous to say this.  The Chamber

11     has not access to QuickTime Player, so I don't see the point of tendering

12     that -- such evidence into evidence.

13             MR. HAYDEN:  Mr. President, we're aware of this problem, and

14     we've actually approached the appropriate people within the Registry

15     about this issue.  The information that I've received is that this --

16     this can be addressed and that the IT personnel are willing to provide

17     QuickTime to the OTP and to the Chambers.  I'd also -- and I know

18     you've -- you've noted this is ridiculous.  These are actually exhibits

19     in the Galic and Milosevic cases.  They were relied upon to make those

20     determinations, and we have adjudicated facts arising from both those

21     cases which rely on these exhibits, so we do feel it's very important

22     that they be accessible by the parties and by the Chamber.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The -- the Chamber will make efforts to -- to

24     see whether from -- given this stage we find it important that programme

25     should be available to the Chamber.  So let's see.  Having said that,

Page 11217

 1     we'll admit this.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2207, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MR. HAYDEN:  Mr. Registrar, if we can move into Sanction once

 5     again, and Mr. Reid will bring up 65 ter 10419.  For the benefit, for the

 6     Chamber and the parties, what we'll see before us is a collection of

 7     360-degree photographs that were prepared for the Dragomir Milosevic case

 8     and this covers scheduled incidents F11, F12, F14 to 17, as well as G9 to

 9     15 and G19.  In e-court, and we can return to this subsequently, there is

10     an index attached which indicates which incidents in the

11     Dragomir Milosevic case correspond to which incidents in this case so

12     that this exhibit may be easily followed, and when we return to e-court,

13     I'll bring that up for the Chamber's benefit.

14             I want to turn to scheduled incidents F11, and F14 to 16.  As

15     alleged, these are all incidents that occurred on trams in roughly the

16     same area.

17             If we can ask Mr. Reid to move to incident number 1 in this

18     presentation.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Hogan, do you recognise this location - and I can turn

20     it around for you, or ask Mr. Reid to do so - as the location pointed out

21     to you where incident F11 occurred?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   You've already briefly pointed out to the Court that where tram

24     sniping incidents were involved, that there was some difficulty in

25     determining the precise location.  How did you determine this particular

Page 11218

 1     location for scheduled incident F11?

 2        A.   When I attended this location with the witness, we met in the

 3     parking lot of the museum, and although I did not have a copy of the

 4     witness's statement to consult, or any photographs or reports for the

 5     witness to consult, I asked the witness to the best of recollection point

 6     out where you were when the bullets hit the tram or you were wounded by

 7     the bullets hitting the tram, and this is the location.  The witness

 8     stood on the sidewalk and pointed to this spot on the tram tracks.

 9        Q.   From this location -- and, Mr. Reid, if we can slowly turn that

10     around.

11             From this location, can you see the Metalka building?

12        A.   No, you cannot.

13        Q.   Thank you.  That's sufficient.  We'll move to another location.

14     That's marked number 13 in this presentation.

15             Now, from this location can you see the S-curve, the tram track

16     S-curve?

17        A.   No, you cannot.

18        Q.   If we ask Mr. Reid to turn to the left.  Are we able to view --

19        A.   Yes.  That is the S-curve as it moves from the median of the

20     boulevard, and the tram tracks go to the outer edge of the boulevard.

21     That's known as the S-curve.

22        Q.   Now, I'm going to ask you to point out two locations, and these

23     relate to incidents F11, F14, F15, and F16.  The first is the

24     Metalka building, and perhaps you can guide Mr. Reid as to the direction.

25        A.   The photograph -- or the 360 should be panned to the right.  And

Page 11219

 1     stop.  And the building just at the end of the street straight ahead from

 2     the aspect of the viewer is the Metalka building.

 3        Q.   And if you could also point out the high-rise buildings in

 4     Grbavica, and again direct Mr. Reid if you need the image moved.

 5        A.   And again to the right, please.  And stop there, please.  And if

 6     you could zoom in.  And pan to the right again slightly.  And zoom in

 7     further.

 8             This is a white flat roof in the middle of the screen, and just

 9     behind that white flat roof there are the towers of the white skyscrapers

10     visible.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. HAYDEN:  If we could go back to e-court, please, and

13     Mr. Registrar, 10419A, please.  Page 2, please.

14        Q.   In this image can you circle the Metalka building, Mr. Hogan?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Today's date, your signature, please.

17             MR. HAYDEN:  This is the next exhibit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2208, Your Honours.

20             MR. HAYDEN:  Move to page 3 of this 65 ter.

21        Q.   And in this image can you circle the high-rise buildings of

22     Grbavica that you've just described for the Court.

23             MR. HAYDEN:  Mr. Usher, I think we're having difficulties with

24     the pen.  It's been rectified.

25             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 11220

 1             MR. HAYDEN:  This is the next Prosecution exhibit.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P2209.

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  There are two remaining incidents I want to look at

 4     with respect to this presentation.  If we can move back to Sanction and

 5     move to a spot marked as number 5.  And this corresponds to incident F12

 6     of our indictment.

 7        Q.   Now, from this location -- and again, if you need the assistance

 8     of Mr. Reid to move the image, please let us know.  From this location,

 9     where is the Metalka building?

10        A.   The Metalka building is directly at the end of the street that

11     you can see running off to the right.  It's not visible in this image,

12     though, because of the leaves of the trees.

13             MR. HAYDEN:  Move back to e-court, please, and ask for 10419A,

14     page 1, same 65 ter as previously, page 1.

15        Q.   Now, this is a still shot of the 360-degree photograph we were

16     just looking at.  Can you mark roughly where the Metalka building is

17     if -- if you were looking through the trees?

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Today's date, signature.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             MR. HAYDEN:  And this is the next exhibit, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2210, Your Honours.

24             MR. HAYDEN:  Back to Sanction, please.  And move to spot

25     number 15.  This incident corresponds to scheduled incident F17.  And I

Page 11221

 1     ask Mr. Reid to pan this image around.  We're moving to the left.

 2        Q.   Do you recognise this as the location of incident 17, the

 3     shooting of Tarik Zunic at Sedrenik Street?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Can you point out for the Court Sharpstone ridge from here?

 6        A.   It's the woody -- wooded, rocky ridge visible in the centre left

 7     of the photograph, just above the post of the barbed wire fence.

 8             MR. HAYDEN:  Back to e-court, the same 65 ter, and page 6,

 9     please.

10        Q.   This is a still shot we were just looking at on our screens.  And

11     if you can mark the area you described as being Sharpstone ridge.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Today's date, signature.

14        A.   [Marks]

15             MR. HAYDEN:  And this is the next exhibit.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2211, Your Honours.

18             MR. HAYDEN:  We can leave the scheduled incidents behind us now,

19     and I want to move to two other discrete issues and ask for 65 ter 09390,

20     please.

21        Q.   This is a map of Sarajevo, Mr. Hogan.  And when the map comes up,

22     I'll ask you to point out for us the location of Markale Market.  And if

23     you need to zoom in on this map, then, please direct the Registrar to do

24     so.

25        A.   Yes.  If I can get you to zoom in on the eastern part of the

Page 11222

 1     city, please.  That will be fine.

 2        Q.   Can you point out Markale Market and mark it with number 1,

 3     please.

 4        A.   [Marks].  This is within a hundred metres.

 5        Q.   And if you were travelling in the north north-east direction from

 6     Markale Market, can you point out, to the best of your knowledge, the

 7     closest point of the confrontation line.

 8        A.   I'm afraid we've zoomed in too much.

 9        Q.   I thought that might happen.  We might have to lose this marking,

10     zoom out, to capture --

11             JUDGE KWON:  We can mark it again, or we just scroll up.

12             MR. HAYDEN:  Keep scrolling.  Perfect.

13             THE WITNESS:  If I -- if I could mark again the location of

14     Markale.

15             MR. HAYDEN:

16        Q.   Yes, please.  And again, number 1 next to that.

17        A.   [Marks].  And the closest point in the north-easterly direction

18     with the confrontation lines would be Sharpstone ridge at this location

19     here, 2.

20        Q.   And have you measured the distance between Markale Market, as you

21     identified it with your GPS readings, and Sharpstone ridge?

22        A.   It was -- I believe it was 2.340, but if we can say approximately

23     2.340, that would be more accurate.

24        Q.   And how did you -- how did you make that measurement?

25        A.   That was -- you can -- you can have the GPS display distances

Page 11223

 1     between waypoints.  So if you take a waypoint at Markale and a waypoint

 2     at Sharpstone ridge, it will display the distance between the two.  I've

 3     also, for interest's sake, measured it on a map similar to this with a

 4     scale, and it's approximate 2300 metres on the map.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we were to imagine a cone which marks the

 6     north north-east direction from Markale Market, can you identify on this

 7     map the furthest part of the confrontation line.

 8        A.   If we're using north north-east as a central point of 18 degrees

 9     and plus or minus 5 degrees either way, approximately this location here

10     would be the easterly edge of the cone, and the confrontation line is

11     approximately 2.800 metres at that location.  And if I could put a

12     number 3 beside this line.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. HAYDEN:  I tender this map into evidence, please.

15        Q.   With your date and signature, Mr. Hogan.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be Exhibit P2212.

18             MR. HAYDEN:

19        Q.   Now with respect to the locations you've just marked, have you

20     measured the altitudes at those points?  Or firstly, if I can ask you

21     about Markale Market.  Have you measured the altitude at Markale Market?

22        A.   Yes, I have.  The altitude is 556 metres above sea level.

23        Q.   And how did you measure that?

24        A.   Again that was using a GPS.

25        Q.   And have you measured the altitude at Sharpstone?

Page 11224

 1        A.   Yes, I have.  That altitude was 874 metres above sea level with

 2     the GPS.

 3        Q.   And generally speaking, if you were to follow a line north

 4     north-east through Markale Market, through Sharpstone and kept going,

 5     would the altitude immediately after rise or fall?

 6        A.   It would rise.

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  Mr. President, there's one more issue I wish to

 8     address with Mr. Hogan.  I wonder whether now's a good time to take a

 9     break.

10             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient for you, yes.  We'll take a

11     break for half an hour and resume at 5 to 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

15             MR. HAYDEN:  Before I address the last issue with Mr. Hogan,

16     there are two matters to deal with.  The first is the images, the

17     360-degree images in 65 ter 10419.  I'd ask that they be admitted into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2213, Your Honours.

21             MR. HAYDEN:  And the second, if we could return to 65 ter 21213.

22     You will recall this is the very first photograph we looked at.  We now

23     have the panoramic version uploaded.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

25             MR. HAYDEN:

Page 11225

 1        Q.   Mr. Hogan, this is a image we looked at before or looked at part

 2     of it before.  You said it was taken from the Pale road and you were in

 3     the company of Mr. Lesic when he took this photograph.  I'll ask you to

 4     mark four features on this photograph with the pen.  The first one is the

 5     state hospital?

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Number 1.  The second one, marking with number 2 is the

 8     Kosevo Hospital.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   The third marking with number 3 is the Presidency.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   And the fourth with number 4 is Markale Market.

13        A.   I'll have to draw a little arrow to the marketplace.  It's very

14     difficult to see.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And your signature and today's date.

16             MR. HAYDEN:  And perhaps, Mr. President, this can replace

17     Exhibit 2185.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objections from Defence?

19             So at that will be done.  That -- Exhibit P2185.

20             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Hogan, do you know who Colonel Andrej Demurenko is?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   How do you know him?

24        A.   He was a witness in the trial of Dragomir Milosevic.

25        Q.   And just briefly, in what capacity do you know him, i.e., what

Page 11226

 1     was his position at the relevant time period that he testified about?

 2        A.   In August of 1995, he was a Colonel in the Russian army, seconded

 3     to UNPROFOR.  He was the Chief of Staff to the commander of

 4     Sector Sarajevo, as far as I can recollect.

 5        Q.   Are you familiar with his view as to why the Bosnian Serbs could

 6     not have been responsible for the shelling of Markale Market at the end

 7     of August 1995?

 8        A.   Yes, I am.

 9        Q.   And if you could briefly describe the view or theory as you

10     understand it.

11        A.   During his testimony in the Defence case for Dragomir Milosevic,

12     Colonel Demurenko produced a -- or showed a video and testified that the

13     investigation conducted by both UNPROFOR and the local Bosnian

14     investigators revealed the angle at which the 120-millimetre mortar

15     impacted the street in front of the market building and the direction of

16     fire of that mortar.  Using a mortar table for an M-52 mortar,

17     Colonel Demurenko, in the video and in his testimony, worked out the

18     six possible points at which that mortar could have been fired.  He

19     testified, and he stated on the -- in the video that he physically

20     attended, along with VRS soldiers, the three possible sites on the VRS

21     side of the confrontation lines and viewed the ground within a 10-metre

22     radius of those sites and found no signs of a mortar having been fired.

23     Therefore, he said that if it did not come from those three particular

24     sites within 10-metre radius, it could not have originated from the VRS

25     side.

Page 11227

 1        Q.   Have you ever been asked to conduct an investigation to test part

 2     of this view?

 3        A.   Yes, I was, in the summer of 2007 I was so tasked.

 4        Q.   Can you briefly describe what you did in order to test part of

 5     that theory or view?

 6        A.   Because Colonel Demurenko had stated on the video that he used a

 7     direction of fire of 176 degrees and distances of possible points of

 8     origin of -- I believe it was 3.600 metres, 3.400 metres, and

 9     2.700 metres, I believe, or 2.400 metres, I'm not sure, but I got the

10     assistance of our mapping unit to produce a satellite image of the area

11     of Sarajevo with markings of 176 degrees from Markale Market and little

12     arrows to indicate the distances at which Colonel Demurenko had stated

13     those possible launch sites.  I also had them mark a line of 170 degrees,

14     because 170 degrees was the indication in the UNPROFOR report of the

15     direction of fire.

16             I then attended Mount Trebevic and tried to go as closely as

17     possible to those possible launch sites, those potential launch sites to

18     take GPS readings and to take photographs.

19             MR. HAYDEN:  65 ter 23085, please.

20        Q.   I believe that what we're about to see is a series of photographs

21     that you took whilst on that mission, as you've just described.  Firstly,

22     what will come up on our screens is an attachment to those photographs,

23     an index of those photographs, and I'd ask you to confirm, Mr. Hogan,

24     that the information recorded here reflects the information you recorded

25     with your GPS on Mount Trebevic and that you logged with the evidence

Page 11228

 1     unit upon return?

 2        A.   Yes, it does.

 3             MR. HAYDEN:  Before looking at those photographs I want to go to

 4     10417.  65 ter 10417, please.

 5        Q.   Now, you mentioned before that prior to going on the mission you

 6     worked with the mapping unit using a satellite image, and you marked out

 7     170 degrees and 176 degrees, and you marked the different waypoints where

 8     the photographs were taken.  Does this image reflect that exercise?

 9        A.   Yes, it does.

10             MR. HAYDEN:  Now, I'll first ask this image to be admitted into

11     evidence unmarked.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2214, Your Honours.

14             MR. HAYDEN:

15        Q.   And just for the benefit of the Court now, can you circle

16     waypoint 2, 3, and 5 on that map.

17        A.   [Marks].  I should point out that there's actually a small black

18     crescent which can be visible beside the letters WP and the number, and

19     that small crescent Is the actual spot THAT I was standing on when taking

20     the GPS reading.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. HAYDEN:  I don't think we need to admit this marked version.

23     The -- as Mr. Hogan has explained by referring to that small black

24     crescent, the image is self-explanatory.  If we can go back to 23085, the

25     series of photographs.

Page 11229

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know where this is.  Could

 4     it please be marked.  I don't see what you mean.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Well, if we zoom in further.  Let's zoom in the

 6     bottom part where we can see "WP2."

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I see it.

 8             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             Turn to page 10, please.

10        Q.   Now, according to the information at the beginning of this series

11     of photographs, this is a photo taken at waypoint 2.  Can you confirm

12     that's the case?

13        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

14        Q.   Turn to page 12, please.  Again an image taken at waypoint 2; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   That is correct.

17             MR. HAYDEN:  And final image, waypoint 2 is page 15, according to

18     the information in the index.  Thank you.

19             Now turning to page 21.  We might go to the next image, sorry.

20     Page 22, then.

21             And now look at page 24 -- sorry, page 25.  Page 25, please.

22        Q.   And can you confirm those three images we've just seen, the GPS

23     reader and those two photographs, were taken at waypoint 3?

24        A.   Yes, they were.

25             MR. HAYDEN:  And we'll finally go to page 40, and to page 41.

Page 11230

 1        Q.   Can you confirm that these two images we've just seen were taken

 2     at waypoint 5?

 3        A.   Yes, they were.

 4             MR. HAYDEN:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender the series of

 5     photographs, the full series of photographs along with the index at the

 6     front.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, that will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2215, Your Honours.

 9             MR. HAYDEN:

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hogan.  That concludes the direct examination.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  It's now for you to cross-examine Mr. Hogan.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning to all.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hogan.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   I hope that you will understand that since our time is very

18     short, I will try to put questions that will make it possible to give a

19     mere yes or no answer.  Sometimes I understand that you will have to say

20     more than that.

21             What was -- what was your task in terms of finding the locations

22     of these incidents?

23        A.   My task was to find -- are you talking about the photographs on

24     Trebevic or the sniping and shelling incident locations?

25        Q.   All locations.  Your overall task.  When you were given this

Page 11231

 1     task, what was it that your task was?  What were you supposed to

 2     establish in relation to all the incidents or all the locations that you

 3     visited?

 4        A.   Regarding the shelling and sniping locations, my task was to find

 5     out -- to accompany the witness or the victim to the location to

 6     establish as closely as possible where the incident happened.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  So you had the assistance of the witness.  Was that

 8     the crucial point, when the witness would say where a particular incident

 9     occurred?

10        A.   That's what I was using as my guidebook, yes.  Where the witness

11     said the incident happened, that's what I took as the incident location.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have the assistance of witnesses in terms of

13     places where fire had come from?

14        A.   Regarding sniping incidents, they could indicate the direction of

15     fire, but by the very nature of being hit by a bullet, they were not in a

16     position to say exactly what the precise origin of fire was.  They knew

17     where -- which direction the bullet came from, but they did not know

18     precisely which building or feature that bullet originated from.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you use the results of the official investigation

20     of the local police with the assistance of the witnesses, or did you

21     simply restrict yourself to where the witnesses would take you to?

22        A.   Just to clarify the procedure I was taking, I was not -- I was

23     not gathering their evidence at that point.  I was only taking them to --

24     having them take me to the locations for the purposes of this filming.

25     When they came to testify, that was the important part of identifying the

Page 11232

 1     sources of fire.  At the time that we were doing the filming, I only

 2     asked for the direction of fire.  So we did not use the statements or the

 3     police investigation reports or the UNPROFOR reports at the time of these

 4     filming incidents -- these filming procedures.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  However, this fire is determining the location is

 6     concerned, in addition to being taken to different places by witnesses,

 7     did you also have information as to what it was that the local police had

 8     established the location to be?

 9        A.   Yes.  The local police investigation reports were tendered into

10     evidence at the trial, yes.  I didn't -- I did not consult them for the

11     purposes of the filming.  I depended upon the witnesses.  This -- this

12     exercise was designed to shorten the witnesses' testimony.  It was not to

13     take their evidence at the -- at the scene.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we therefore infer that you were not in a

15     position to compare the location of the incident that was established by

16     the local police on the one hand, and on the other hand, what the witness

17     had shown -- or the victim, rather?

18        A.   During the filming, no, I did not compare.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So you set the coordinates in accordance with what

20     the witnesses had shown you, and that is what is on your films; right?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   Thank you.  When determining the location involved, do you

23     determine the coordinates of the location where you were standing or the

24     location where the incident had taken place?

25        A.   I would stand at the location where the witness or victim

Page 11233

 1     indicated that he or she was hit by the bullet or the person had been

 2     killed by the bullet, and that's where I was standing when I took the

 3     GPS reading.  And I'm speaking of sniping incidents now.  The shelling

 4     incidents were a little bit different.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  It seems that you used Garmin GPS or Garmin or

 6     whatever the pronunciation may be.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   Can you explain to us in the briefest possible terms what the

 9     technical capabilities and technical characteristics of that device are?

10        A.   I'm afraid I can't.  I know how to turn it on, and I know how to

11     take a reading.  I don't know how it actually works.  It's like a

12     computer.  I know how to turn it on and use it, but I don't know how it

13     actually works.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3091.  Could we have that,

16     please, in order to get some education in terms of the letters and

17     numbers that this device can display.  Yes, that was it.

18             Thank you.  That's the device, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes, or one very similar.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain to us what the lettering means and

21     what the numbers depict?

22        A.   The screen shot of this instrument is set for compass reading,

23     and it indicates that -- that the GPS unit is pointed south at a degrees

24     of 202, and at the bottom is 0.0 speed.  So the unit is stationary while

25     this screen shot is taken.

Page 11234

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So it works in compass mode.  That's what we see

 2     here; right?

 3        A.   It can.  That's -- that's one of the functions of the unit.  It

 4     can work in compass mode, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Could we now have 1D -- actually,

 7     let me just ask this:  Can we tender all of this together once we're done

 8     with all of these photographs?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is another photograph,

11     1D3092.  Can that be on one side of the screen and then can it all be

12     admitted together as a single photograph?  So 1D3092.  Could that be on

13     half of the screen.  Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you tell us now which mode this is?

16        A.   This is operating in a waypoint, for want of a better term.  This

17     displays a grid reference where the unit is located at the time of the

18     reading.

19        Q.   Thank you.  When measuring the coordinates, did you express them

20     in such numbers, such seven-digit numbers?

21        A.   No.  The -- the readings that I recorded on the attachment to the

22     previous exhibit were in decimal degrees, so degrees with decimal points.

23     You can display the readings in degrees, minutes, seconds; decimal

24     degrees; or with what they call UTM, universal transverse mercator of

25     grid references.

Page 11235

 1        Q.   And what did you use?

 2        A.   I used decimal degrees.

 3        Q.   Did you use the global coordinate system?

 4        A.   I'm not familiar with that term.

 5        Q.   Are you familiar with the term "GWS"?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this photograph be admitted as

 9     a whole.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Two images will be admitted into one Defence

11     exhibit.  So they should be merged as page 1 and page 2 later on.  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Defence Exhibit number --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He doesn't have to sign it; right?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number again, D?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that's Exhibit D990.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's part of the still from a video.

17     Yes.  Let's move on.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Please, when coordinates are established in the way in which you

20     established them, can they be entered into the maps that were used by

21     UNPROFOR -- or, rather, the coordinates that you establish in this way,

22     are they identical to the coordinates that were established by UNPROFOR

23     when they worked on this?

24        A.   I have no idea.  I'm not sure exactly which maps UNPROFOR was

25     using, and I don't know whether they would be able to be transferred, but

Page 11236

 1     if -- logically, if they were using maps that displayed latitude and

 2     longitude with enough detail, you could take the latitude and longitude

 3     readings from a GPS and mark the appropriate location on a map.

 4        Q.   But you did not make these comparisons.  You did not establish

 5     whether it was compatible with the maps and coordinates use by UNPROFOR;

 6     right?

 7        A.   I did not specifically do that, no.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You do understand why I'm putting these questions.  I

 9     understand.  I'm not criticising you.  We have documents and exhibits

10     that come from UNPROFOR, and that's why I'm asking you these questions.

11             All right.  You dealt with the incident location at

12     Zmaja od Bosne that occurred on the 8th of October, 1994; right?

13        A.   I'm sorry, is that one of the F scheduled incidents?  Yes.

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 11237











11  Page 11237 redacted.















Page 11238











11  Page 11238 redacted.















Page 11239

 1   (redacted)

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you tell us what it was that you said here, what it was that

 4     you established in relation to this location?  Have you heard what you

 5     said, or would you like us to play this again?

 6        A.   No.  I was reading the GPS coordinates from the instrument into

 7     the camera.  That's what I was reading.

 8        Q.   So that position pertains to the spot where you are standing;

 9     right?

10        A.   I don't know.  As I said before, I -- I might have gone over to

11     the tram tracks, taken a reading and stored it into the GPS unit, walked

12     back onto the sidewalk and read it off the screen.  I'm not sure.  Or I

13     could have taken it on the sidewalk.  I'm not sure exactly what -- which

14     method I used.  I should point out, though, that you can hear me saying

15     the degrees, minutes and seconds for the readings, and then when I

16     returned to The Hague and was providing the readings to mapping unit,

17     they preferred to work with decimal degrees.  So instead of saying

18     49 minutes, 20 -- 49 degrees, 20 minutes, 13 seconds, they preferred

19 degrees, and the instrument can convert those automatically just

20     by adjusting the settings.  So that's how I recorded them in my later

21     declaration with the decimal degrees.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is now putting a special task

24     before us.  Can we ask for a break of about 10 minutes to establish how

25     we are going to proceed in view of this new fact.

Page 11240

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will have a break for 10 minutes.

 2                           --- Break taken at 11.38 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.54 a.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

 5             MR. HAYDEN:  Just a brief note, Mr. President.  If the Defence

 6     are going to be using this footage or footage like this, out of an

 7     abundance of caution I think it shouldn't be broadcast, at least not

 8     initially, so as not to reveal potentially the identity of protected

 9     witnesses.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Until we find our bearings in terms of all this electronics,

13     Mr. Hogan, could you have a look at this map of the US government.  Could

14     you look at the markings there, and can you tell us how it reflects on

15     your work.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we switch to e-court, then.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then have in e-court

18     0361-5780.  That should be the map.  0361-5780.  That's the ERN number.

19     The map should be there.  It should be on the ELMO.  Thank you.

20             Could you put it lower down and then move it to the left a bit.

21     Yes.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can you look at 26 seconds -- or, rather, 94 on a horizontal

24     plane.  And the next one is 95 and 27 seconds, and then on the vertical

25     one we have 43, 52, and 55 seconds.  What are these markings, and how

Page 11241

 1     does that influence the measurements that you were telling us about?

 2        A.   This map, if you're talking about the letters CC, DD, EE, across

 3     the horizontal top -- is that what you're?  Okay.  93, 94, 95, those are

 4     grid lines, yes.

 5        Q.   The numbers.

 6        A.   And then -- then there are also numbers, 26 minutes, 27 minutes,

 7     and those are the -- the degree minutes.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us now what you did and what was converted here?

 9     How was that conversion carried out?

10        A.   I didn't use this map.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that, but I'm speaking of these minutes,

12     seconds, degrees.  Can you explain that to the Trial Chamber?  Can you

13     explain what it was that you did and how that was converted here in

14     this -- in which way?

15        A.   I see.  The GPS instrument has a variety of ways to display your

16     location.  You can either display it by grid reference with these --

17     using the numbers 93, 94, 95, across the top, 60, 61, et cetera, along

18     the side.  So horizontal and vertical numbers.  Where they intersect

19     would give you a one-square kilometre range.

20             By narrowing it down, if you had 9456 by 6178, for example, you

21     could get within 10-square metres using those grid references.  However,

22     when I first recorded, as we saw, on that video the position, I was using

23     degrees, minutes, and seconds.  So each degree is divided into

24     60 minutes, and each minute is divided into 60 seconds.  That's one

25     alternative display on the GPS.

Page 11242

 1             The third alternative is decimals, so you can have decimal

 2     degrees.  45 -- for example, 45 degrees, 30 minutes, 0 seconds, equals

 3     45.50 degrees in decimals.  So you can display them anyway you want.  And

 4     taking the same position, you -- just by changing a setting on the

 5     GPS unit, it will automatically convert the display.  It's the same

 6     location, just displayed differently.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  But if it's done here rather than on the spot, what

 8     happens?

 9        A.   I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.  I couldn't hear the translation.

10        Q.   If that is done here in The Hague rather than on the spot where

11     you were taking measurements, what would you do then?  How would you

12     convert it then?

13        A.   Well, there are very simple computer programmes that will do it

14     automatically.  It's -- it's very common measurements.  It can be -- I'm

15     sure if you just do an internet search, you can find a very good computer

16     programme that will convert it into whichever reading you want very

17     accurately.

18        Q.   And is there any loss in translation, to put it metaphorically?

19     Is there any loss, any error in this conversion?

20        A.   In -- in the conversion from one reading to another, no, there's

21     no -- it's the same.  The actual reading, the accuracy depends upon how

22     many satellites you're able to access at the time, whether you're

23     accurate within 30 metres, or accurate within 10 metres, or accurate

24     within 1 metre.  It depends on how many satellites are available that you

25     can access.  But the actual reading will get you just as precisely to the

Page 11243

 1     same location, whether it's in the grid, or degrees, minutes, seconds, or

 2     decimal degrees.

 3        Q.   But you agree it would be useful to us to have both measurements

 4     and see for ourselves how the conversion was done.

 5        A.   I'm sure that the --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

 7             MR. HAYDEN:  Sorry.  That's a question really asking for

 8     speculation on the part of the witness.  He doesn't know what's useful

 9     for the Defence or others.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I didn't -- I don't think I follow that.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Well, my question is should this be verifiable?  Shouldn't we be

13     able to have all the measurements and check for ourselves whether the

14     conversion was done correctly?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Can you answer the question, Mr. Hayden -- I'm

16     sorry.  Mr. Hogan.

17             THE WITNESS:  I'm sure that they can be converted very easily.

18     But I must point out that the reason that these GPS readings were taken

19     was for the purpose of putting dots on these maps that have been

20     provided, and the dots themselves are probably a hundred metres in

21     diameter.  So to get it accurate within 1 metre I don't think is going to

22     make much difference to the placement of these dots on the maps.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I'm just trying to say that if the measurement was done in one

25     system and was represented to us in a different system, I think I should

Page 11244

 1     have -- I should be given the chance to check for myself whether the

 2     conversion was done correctly.

 3             Am I able to check that if I don't have both measurements?

 4        A.   I -- I'm not sure if you can -- as I say, they can be converted

 5     very easily with a programme.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  After the break, can you show an example how a

 7     specific grid reference is converted into -- I don't know the name, but

 8     to be able to mark a specific point on the map.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Certainly.  Your Honour, Mr. President, I probably

10     need the assistance of the mapping unit to demonstrate the computer

11     programme that converts it, but I can certainly show how to mark on a map

12     the various grid references and GPS readings.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  There's a difference, isn't there, whether

14     you're working from the map to the location or the location to the map,

15     and there will be a difference.  If you're seeking to find your position

16     in a completely featureless area, like the middle of the sea, then the

17     accuracy of GPS, according to the number of satellites, will be important

18     but not critical.  Especially if you're only travelling at five knots.

19     But if you're looking for a particular location on the ground where you

20     might want to go in for, say, a six-figure grid reference as opposed to a

21     four-figure grid reference to give you the enhanced accuracy that that

22     provides, Dr. Karadzic does have a point.  What really matters at the end

23     of the day is were you satisfied with the accuracy of your measurements.

24             THE WITNESS:  Would you like me to respond to that, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

Page 11245

 1             THE WITNESS:  For the purposes of the mapping exercise that I was

 2     doing, I was satisfied with the accuracy.  As I say, the dots that we

 3     were placing on the map were -- convert to about 100 to 150 metres in

 4     diameter, and the purpose of these readings and the videos of the

 5     witnesses was not to replace their testimony.  It was to shorten their

 6     testimony.  So the important points that were made were while they were

 7     testifying and their evidence was being -- was able to be tested during

 8     cross-examine.  This was only just to demonstrate that the locations --

 9     to shorten their testimony for the Court's purposes.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I can just make an observation

11     that some of those victims were not allowed to testify because their

12     testimony was admitted under Rule 92 bis.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Hogan, you would agree, wouldn't you, that in the

16     circumstances of street fighting, when the confrontation line sometimes

17     bisects a building, these deviations of 100, 150 metres make a big

18     difference.  And we've had experience with mapping by UNPROFOR where the

19     error margin was 300 metres.  Do you agree that we have good reason to

20     want to protect ourselves from these errors?

21        A.   I would agree that you have reason to protect yourself from

22     errors, but I must stress that the reason that these GPS readings and

23     dots were placed was not to prove the -- the elements of each incident.

24     It was to assist in shortening the testimony of witnesses.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at e-court and go back to that place

Page 11246

 1     where you established the coordinates for this incident from October 1994

 2     in Zmaja od Bosne Street.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the number.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say the 65 ter number?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see it is 1D, but it's part of

 6     this film that has been exhibited as a P exhibit, Prosecution exhibit.

 7             Perhaps it's in Sanction.  Can we now play it from 47 to 54.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9              ".4 minutes 17.3 seconds.  Point to the location where the tram

10     was located on the 8th October 1994, when the bullets hit the tram.

11              "Thank you.  And can you please point in the direction that the

12     tram was moving.

13              "Thank you.  And could you please indicate for the camera just

14     by pointing to your ..."

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you agree that this witness is pointing at the area between

17     the buildings of the government and the building of the philosophical

18     faculty?  This building on the right, is this the philosophical faculty?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And in the projection, at a right angle across the

21     road from you is the place on the tram tracks where the tram was when it

22     was hit; correct?

23        A.   It's -- it's just behind the camera.  So if you're looking -- I

24     would -- in this image, I would be looking at the tram tracks, and it

25     would be to the back of the cameraman.

Page 11247

 1        Q.   Behind the cameraman.  All right.  Then all that is to the east

 2     of the Faculty of Philosophy, which is that building, the white building

 3     there.  Do you see it?

 4        A.   I see it, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that a bit further to the east behind

 6     you is the building of the Executive Council, that is to say, the

 7     government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   It's just behind that large sign and behind the fences here in

 9     the top left-hand corner of this image.  That's the Assembly building.

10        Q.   Thank you.  This is quite enough about this incident.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see a part of this video

12     that relates to -- this entire video has been exhibited; right?  There it

13     is.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Isn't the witness here pointing at the direction from which she

16     was shot?

17        A.   I actually think she was demonstrating the way she was standing

18     at the time she was shot.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             "Thank you."

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now move to the segment related to the

23     incident of 18 November 1994, which you already examined.  We don't have

24     to play it.  You examined it again with a victim of that incident, right?

25             THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] Can we see 307, and the video is

Page 11248

 1     0006997, from 13.08 to 13.43.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Incident number 5 of 18 November, 1994.  I have taken a

 4     GPS reading from this location using a Garmin eTrex GPS unit.  The

 5     coordinates are north 43 degrees, 51 minutes, 20.1 seconds; east

 6     18 degrees, 24 minutes, 12.1 seconds."

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Is that the spot the witness indicated as the place

 9     of incident?

10        A.   I think we would have to see a little bit more of this, because

11     at one point in this, I would ask her to stand at the spot where she was

12     shot.  So I'm not sure if this, where she's standing now, is the spot.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "Also in attendance are Zoran Lesic and Igor Lesic, the

15     videographers --"

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Can you stop it?  I'm not sure to

17     what extent we allow the protected -- is the name of the victim --

18             MR. HAYDEN:  I believe in this instance this is not a protected

19     witness, but I would like to just double-check that's the case.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you do that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think it is a protected

22     witness, because in previous testimony, the name of both the woman and

23     her child were mentioned.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

25             MR. HAYDEN:  It's not a protected witness, Your Honour.

Page 11249

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  So, we can proceed.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Sarajevo field office and witness number 129.

 4             "Witness, at this time I would like to ask you to please stand in

 5     the location where you were shot on the 18th of November, 1994.

 6             "Can you please point ..."

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree that the witness is now very close to the building

10     of the museum and much farther from the crossing?

11        A.   She -- much farther -- so the distance to the museum is closer

12     than the distance to the crossing?  Is that what you're asking?  I'm not

13     sure.

14        Q.   Is it?  That's what I'm asking.  Do you see where she is in

15     relation to the museum, and do you know that there is a street with a

16     pedestrian crossing nearby?

17        A.   I do, and the street is just at the end of the hedgerow, just at

18     the left-hand corner of the photograph, and we can see the corner of the

19     museum.  So I judge it to be about equidistant between where she's

20     standing, between the street corner and the corner of the museum.

21        Q.   If we look at this hedgerow, don't you think the ratio is 1:2,

22     meaning closer to the museum?  I don't mean the width of the pavement.  I

23     mean the length of the hedgerow.  Looking at the hedgerow, is -- isn't

24     the woman closer now to the museum than to the street that she was about

25     to cross?

Page 11250

 1        A.   I think you might be a little confused from --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  While keeping this image from this

 3     Sanction or video, is it possible to turn -- to upload an e-court

 4     picture?

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If not, we can note that it's

 7     14.45.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, we can revisit this scene.  It's 14.45.

 9     Then can you upload in e-court 21 -- 65 ter 21216, the picture.  So that

10     we could see whether witness is -- would be able to locate the position

11     on this picture.  I don't remember the exhibit number of this, but ...

12             Can you -- do you think you can mark the position where the

13     witness stands?

14             THE WITNESS:  I believe so, Your Honour, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Or should we zoom in a bit further?

16             THE WITNESS:  If it's possible to zoom in.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  That should be fine.

18             THE WITNESS:  If we recall in the video that we saw the Bogumil

19     headstones in the background on the other side of the hedge, I think just

20     about here is where the witness was standing in this -- I'm sorry for the

21     little tail on that circle.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Witness -- could we see that film again.  I think she was

24     standing much further to the west, and we can establish that, because

25     this is oriented to the south.  So the west is on the left side.

Page 11251

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we keep this for the moment or do you like to

 2     revisit it?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll come back to it if we can

 4     save it.  I'd just like the witness to check again the distance to the

 5     hedgerow on the film.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's switch to Sanction.  And 14.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "Witness, at this time I would like to ask you to please stand in

 9     the location where you were shot on the 18th of November, 1994."

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   If I may remind you, behind you there were two buildings, and

12     between you and the witness, there is one feature and one lamp-post, and

13     she's standing exactly in the protection of this lamp-post or is it the

14     tree?  Could we now go back to that photo.

15             Do you agree that this tree we see there, she stands in the same

16     line as that tree, and between you and her, there is this little obelisk

17     in the middle.  She's standing further to the west from this little

18     obelisk?

19        A.   No, I don't think so.  If you keep in mind these headstones, when

20     we first see the image in the video, you can see this -- if we're

21     counting from the east or the left of the hedges had -- rectangle, there

22     are two headstones and then one in the middle.  The third one would be

23     the long horizontal one in the middle.  That is behind her left shoulder

24     or right shoulder, I think, in the first image from the video, which,

25     with the angle of the camera, would put it -- would put her pretty much

Page 11252

 1     where I've marked that circle.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you sign and put the date.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   May I ask you to connect these two headstones to the east and to

 6     mark the tree next to the museum, and then we'll go back to the film.

 7        A.   I'm sorry, mark the two headstones, the first two in that

 8     rectangle?

 9        Q.   First two from the east.

10        A.   [Marks].  And the tree?

11        Q.   You can also mark this middle one.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And the tree.  Thank you.  Can we now go back to the photograph.

14             MR. HAYDEN:  The still has been now uploaded as 90214 if you want

15     to use it in e-court, in case Mr. Karadzic wants the Defence to -- the

16     witness to mark that, that's possible.

17             JUDGE KWON:  90214.  65 ter number.

18             MR. HAYDEN:  90214, yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give an exhibit number for this, and --

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this is Exhibit D991.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And why don't we upload 90214.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the previous one again?

23             Can you -- well, this is the photograph, isn't it?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, so the witness would be able to mark on this

25     photo.  But if you'd like to revert to the video-clip, you can do so.

Page 11253

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it's better to use the

 2     photograph.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you mark those two now that are right behind you.

 5        A.   The two headstones?

 6        Q.   Yes, two headstones.  And then the third one and then the tree.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Do you agree that you are standing in the same line as these

 9     two headstones, the first ones?

10        A.   In the same line.  I'm not understanding that.

11        Q.   On the same plane in relation to those two headstones.

12        A.   I think if you drew a line between those two, the first two

13     headstones, I might be standing a little bit further to the west of that

14     line, maybe a metre or two, but very close, very close.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put the date there and your

16     signature.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit number for this.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit Number D992.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time, Mr. Karadzic.  Shall we take a

22     break or -- yes.  We'll have a break for half an hour, so we'll resume at

23     1.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

Page 11254

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  May I --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  -- just address you very briefly on one matter,

 4     and that is, we would like to make a motion for reconsideration of the

 5     Chamber's oral decision of the 1st of February that denied Dr. Subotic

 6     anything in the way of consideration for other than to be physically

 7     present in the courtroom concerning the testimony of this witness.  We,

 8     as you suggested, contacted OLAD, and they have refused to compensate

 9     her, saying that the Trial Chamber made it clear that Dr. Subotic is not

10     required to provide expert assistance to Dr. Karadzic and, rather,

11     allowed her presence in the court to assist Dr. Karadzic exceptionally

12     instead of another team member.  And I think that you can see from the

13     quality of the examination that has been -- the cross-examination that

14     has been done, that the assistance of an expert was indeed required for

15     this witness.  And we don't think it's fair to require people on the

16     Defence to work pro bono, and Prosecution experts and there's a whole

17     mapping team that's assisting Mr. Hogan, all of whom are being

18     compensated regularly for their work.  So we would ask that you

19     reconsider your decision and allow Dr. Subotic to have the same status

20     with this witness as she has had for every other witness in which she's

21     been allowed to participate in the courtroom.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Does the Prosecution have any point on that?

23             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe we took a point earlier,

24     Your Honour, so I don't think we would weigh in now.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 11255

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, Mr. Robinson.  We'll consider it.  Let's

 2     proceed.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Before we move on to the next incident, Mr. Hogan, how many days

 6     did you spend on this assignment in Sarajevo?  I'm not talking about

 7     Banja Luka.  I'm talking about this.

 8        A.   I believe it took about a week to do the filming.  It could be a

 9     few days either way, though.  Actually, I don't think it was less than

10     that week.  It might have been ten days or so.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Who supplied you with this instrument?

12        A.   This was an instrument that was supplied by the Information and

13     Technology Section, I believe, of the OTP -- of the Tribunal.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Before you set out on that trip, was that instrument

15     calibrated for you?

16        A.   Every time I turned it on I had to recalibrate it, because you

17     have to orient yourself to the north, and once it acquires the satellite

18     signals, you have to turn in, I think, two complete circles so that it

19     calibrates itself to the north.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You also photographed the location of the incident

21     that occurred on the 27th of February, 1995; is that right?  It has to do

22     with the tram; right?

23        A.   I was present when -- when it was photographed, but my colleague

24     did the actual photography.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 11256

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we play that footage.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "This video is the sniping incident [indiscernible] of

 4     27 February 1995."

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Behind you we can see the Holiday Inn, and a bit further to the

 7     right we see the two Unis skyscrapers; right?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next one, from

10     37:09 to 37:42.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "At this time, I would like you to please go [indiscernible]

13     where the tram was located on 27 February 1995 when it was hit by

14     bullets.  Just point to the location.

15             "Thank you."

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Will you agree that the Holiday Inn is on the right-hand side and

18     the Technical School on the left, and that the tram was between the

19     Holiday Inn and the Technical School, facing this witness; right?

20        A.   That's what the witness was indicated, yes.

21        Q.   And that the tram was moving from town towards Ilidza.  That is

22     on the right-hand side of the photograph.  So it was moving from east to

23     west; right?

24        A.   The witness didn't indicate that on this video, and I'd have to

25     refer to the investigation reports to refresh my memory about the

Page 11257

 1     direction of travel.  I don't recall offhand.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has been admitted already as

 4     part of an exhibit; right?  No?  It hasn't?  Can we then tender this part

 5     from 35:50 to 35:58, and from 37:09 to 37:42.  1D3099.  That's the

 6     number.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised by the Court Deputy that this is a

 8     part of video-clip that has already been admitted.

 9             Can I get a confirmation of this?

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 40251M.  That's the 65 ter list.

12     40251M.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I was told that is part of the exhibit 1 -- I

14     forgot the number.  1208.  1208, is it correct?  Yes, 1028.  But please

15     get the -- while we get the confirmation, let's proceed.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you can we now have 1D3101.

17     It's a video.  From 1:26:15 to 1:27:29.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This has to do with an incident where Munira Zametica was the

20     victim.  You saw that as well; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Who helped you as a witness?

23        A.   I'm not sure whether this should be broadcast.  This witness was

24     a witness in the Galic case, and she was also present at the -- this --

25     this Dobrinja River at the time that the victim was shot and killed.

Page 11258

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So we are talking about F3 incident?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Did this incident take place close to this bridge, down by the

 4     river?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was -- it was at the water's edge.  The victim had been

 6     kneeling on the concrete embankment, trying to get water from the river

 7     by reaching forward with a bucket.  So it was just at the water's edge

 8     from where I was standing.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

11             MR. HAYDEN:  I believe this is not a protected witness, this

12     particular person.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you have reliable information as to whether the late Murin --

17     Munira was facing the river, or did she have her back turned to the

18     river?  Did they provide you reliable information about that, whether she

19     was facing the river or whether she had her back turned to the river?

20        A.   The information I obtained from witnesses was that she was facing

21     the river, trying to get water from the river with a bucket.  So she was

22     reaching forward facing the river.

23        Q.   Thank you.  No one managed to confirm that to us until now.

24             Can we watch the video now.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 11259

 1             "[No audio] ... was located at the time that she was shot.

 2             "When Mr. Lesic reaches the location ...

 3             "Mr. Lesic is now marking that location with yellow spray paint."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree, Mr. Hogan, that the late Munira was

 6     downstream in relation to this bridge.

 7        A.   Yes, slightly downstream.  About 5 metres or so.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Did you measure the distance between the location of

 9     the incident and the church in Dobrinja?

10        A.   I personally didn't, but it was measured at one point.

11        Q.   Can you recall which street goes across that bridge that we saw?

12        A.   It's a footpath, I believe, a footbridge.  I don't know if it has

13     a street name.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been admitted, or should

16     we admit it now?

17             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised it was not admitted.  So we'll admit

18     this part.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3101 from 1:26:12 to this point,

21     for as long as we played it, that is.

22             Thank you.  It's been given a number; right?

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give it a number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D993.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11260

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now we're moving on to the next incident, number 10,

 2     that occurred on the 3rd of September.  It is incident number 3 in this

 3     case, in the street of Aziza Sacirbegovic.  It used to be called

 4     Ivana Krndelja.  You recorded that as well; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   F4.  It seems to be F4 here, in this case.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3103, please, from 1:47:37 to

 8     1:47:45.  Yes.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you confirm, if you remember, that --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know whether this is

12     a protected witness.  It doesn't have to be broadcast if this is a

13     protected witness, and I don't know.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   What is being established here is where the lady's daughter was

17     standing when she was wounded.  Can we go on?

18        A.   If I could correct that.  She was asked to stand where she was

19     standing with her daughter at the time that they were both wounded.

20        Q.   Thank you.  A few frames before this, she indicated that she had

21     been wounded just a step from the barrier that was there; right?

22        A.   I'm not sure.  I didn't see that recently, but to my

23     recollection, she had just cleared the anti-sniping barrier and was

24     crossing this open stretch of footpath when she and her daughter were

25     hit.

Page 11261

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             "Please show me [indiscernible] where your daughter was located

 3     when she was shot.

 4             "I will --"

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  But can you confirm, so that we don't

 7     have to look for this, that when she passed the barrier that she was hit

 8     one step after that?  Right?

 9        A.   I can't confirm that it was one step.  I know it was -- it was

10     after she had cleared the barrier, but I'm afraid I can't remember if it

11     was just one step or if it was more, or less.  It was after she cleared

12     the barrier.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You also worked on this incident in which

14     Ramiza Kundo was wounded on the 2nd of November, 1993; is that right?  We

15     have it as incident number 5, F5.

16             Is this you with the victim?

17        A.   Yes.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "Could you please show me, to the best of your recollection,

20     where the corner of the garage used to be at the time you were shot.

21             "I will now mark that location using yellow spray paint.  I put a

22     yellow line and number 1.

23             "Mrs. Kundo, could you now show me and stand where you were

24     located, to the best of your recollection, at the time you were shot.

25             "We'll now mark that spot using yellow spray paint.  I've marked

Page 11262

 1     it with an X with a number 1 beside it.

 2             "Mrs. Kundo, could you please face in the direction that you were

 3     facing and assume the position that you were, as close as you can -- as

 4     you can recall at the time that you were shot.

 5             "Thank you."

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you confirm that the witness confirmed to you

 8     that she was at that spot and in this position when she was wounded?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You confirmed to the Prosecutor that the field from

11     where the bullet allegedly came is down there in the valley; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been admitted or should it

15     be admitted now?

16             JUDGE KWON:  I will consult the court deputy.

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're tendering it as 1D304,

19     video 6006 from 2:38:44, further on, up to this number.

20             JUDGE KWON:  You haven't tendered the previous clips, which I

21     understand is part of this clip as well, so we'll admit them all

22     together.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I don't mind, but I

24     would like to tender everything that the Prosecution has not tendered and

25     everything that I'm displaying.

Page 11263

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3103 -- 1D3103 from 47:37 to

 3     1:47:55.  This one is 1D3104 from 2:38 up until 2:44:53.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit them separately.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits D994 and D995, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We haven't got confirmation as to whether the

 7     witness shown in D994 was protected or not.

 8             MR. HAYDEN:  Sorry, is D994 the one on our screens now or?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No, the previous, 1D3103.

10             MR. HAYDEN:  I believe it's not protected.  I'll just --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Double-check it, yes.  Thank you.

12             MR. HAYDEN:  I confirm that, Mr. President, not protected.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Hogan, you were taken to Dobrinja to the location of the

17     incident of the 4th of February, 1994.  It had to do with humanitarian

18     aid and children's playground; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   That's an incident from the G7 list.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I now ask for 1D13105.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure about the number.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 14500.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             "Thank you.  Could you please walk to the location where there

Page 11264

 1     was a door on this side of the building on the 4th of February, 1994, to

 2     the best of your recollection."

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Now, please, is the witness showing you on this -- in this frame

 5     that there used to be a door there, in response to your question?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now rewind just a few frames

 9     back to see some numbering.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a frame or two back.  Where we

12     see letters on the wall.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   May I now ask you to look carefully of -- to look carefully at

17     these letters, "E, D, C, F," and to save this.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this freeze be -- be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  But what -- we have this video, and then in order to

20     produce a still, we may ask Mr. Reid to produce one, but what is your

21     question in relation to those characters?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the next frame will show

23     that.  I'd just like to tender this video, the passage that was played.

24             JUDGE KWON:  That has been admitted?  We'll admit that part.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D996, Your Honours.

Page 11265

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

 2             MR. HAYDEN:  I don't believe the person depicted in the video is

 3     a witness in our case, but out of caution, it should be under seal until

 4     we can establish if that's the case, and even if it's not, whether that

 5     person wanted this to be a public exhibit.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll mark it for -- we'll put it under

 7     seal for the time being.  But could you produce the still image from

 8     this.  Yes.  Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Could we now look carefully at the date, 4th February 1994.  This

12     is a video made by the local investigating authorities.  Can we now see

13     the sequence from .11 to .16.

14             Do you agree, Mr. Hogan, that this is the same image, the same

15     place?  There is the same lettering on the wall, but there is no door.

16        A.   I'm afraid it's not clear enough for me to make out -- oh, I see

17     the lettering now.  I do see lettering on the wall, yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You were told that this is the place where one shell

19     landed on the 4th of February, 1994; right?

20        A.   One of the three, yes.

21        Q.   Do you agree that this image does not differ much from the image

22     that you shot?  It's the same lettering.  It's the same location.  The

23     other details are the same, but there is no damage.

24        A.   No damage?  I see quite a bit of damage.

25        Q.   There's no -- there's not much difference.  It's the same

Page 11266

 1     letters, the same damage, and there's no door.  I just said there was no

 2     door.

 3        A.   Okay.  I missed the door part.  I don't see a door.  I see a high

 4     window.  Yes, I agree with that.  I don't see a door.

 5        Q.   Do you agree it's the same image as the one they showed you in

 6     2006?

 7        A.   The one that -- the image that I appear in?  That was filmed,

 8     actually, I think in 2001, but I do tend to agree that that was the same

 9     location as is being shown right here.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this one and the previous one

12     be received?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give a separate number for a -- for the

14     still image that is to be produced.  Yes.  That will be done.  For the

15     previous one that will be Exhibit D997.  And have we admitted this --

16     yes, Mr. Hayden.

17             MR. HAYDEN:  Mr. President, the still image is 90215.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And that will be admitted as

19     Exhibit D997, as I indicated.  And if this video hasn't been admitted,

20     we'll admit it now.  And shall we do the same, to produce a separate

21     still image from this?

22             MR. HAYDEN:  We will need the timer code.  It's not appear on the

23     screen now.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see it?

25             MR. HAYDEN:  So a still at 19 seconds.

Page 11267

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Shall we give the numbers.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The video will be

 3     Exhibit D998, and the still will be Exhibit D999.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And is the previous clip made by

 5     Mr. Hogan received?  It's 1D3105, beginning at 1:45 to 1:46:01.  I want

 6     that clip, because that's where the witness explains that the explosion

 7     occurred just outside the door.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That has been admitted as Exhibit D996.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Can we now see part of the movie with you, Witness.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3107, and the video 000-3497-1-A.

12     From 1:41:46 to 1:41:50 something.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "... Figure X and then a number 2 beside it.

15             "Would you please show me by standing at the spot where to the

16     best of your recollection the second shell exploded on the

17     4th of February, 1994."

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you know how the locations of the incidents were marked at the

21     time and how many shells landed and where?

22        A.   On the 4th of February?  You're talking about this incident, the

23     4th of February, 1995.  Sorry, 1994.  I'm not sure what you mean by how

24     the marks -- how the shells were marked.  Where the impacts were?  I

25     don't know.  I was not there.

Page 11268

 1        Q.   Now, let us look carefully at this, including the background, the

 2     grass, and all the rest.  There is a bench there and grass.  Do you

 3     agree?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And there is a lamp-post there -- no, no.  No lamp-post.  There's

 6     something else there.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D3108.  Can this

 8     film we just played be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  1000, Exhibit D1000.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you see where people are showing the shell that fell just on

13     the edge, and the whole background is completely different to the

14     previous photo.  In the background we see tarmac, and there is some sort

15     of post that we did not see on the previous image.

16        A.   Yes, I agree.  And I should point out that I think it was a bit

17     unfair of me to ask that witness to demonstrate where the shell fell.  In

18     point of fact, she did make a mistake.  She went to the obvious -- it was

19     from another shell impact.

20             When a mortar explodes in the near vicinity and you're wounded,

21     to be asked seven years later to show where it fell was a bit unfair of

22     me, I'm afraid.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1001, Your Honours.

Page 11269

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Have we noted the time-frame?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's 1D3108, video 000 -- the video

 3     is 000-382-2-1-A.  The sequence from 8:32 to 8:46.

 4             May I now ask for 1D3109 from 5:47 to 5:49.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you see that trace that in your video the witness showed you

 8     as the trace of the shell from the 4th of February?  Is that the place?

 9        A.   That appears to be the place, yes.  That the witness showed me.

10        Q.   Thank you.  However, Mr. Hogan, you were disinformed again.  This

11     trace was completely neglected on the 4th of February, 1994, because it

12     was not fresh.  It did not originate on that day, and this place of

13     impact was not investigated at all.  Did you know that?

14        A.   As I said, I believe the witness showed me the wrong location,

15     and I don't think it was really fair of me to ask her to show me where

16     the shell fell, because she wouldn't have been in any position at that

17     point when she was wounded to do any kind of a crater analysis or to see

18     exactly where it fell.  So in other words, I think she made a mistake by

19     identifying this older crater.

20        Q.   Thank you.  The Defence has its own theory, but we won't

21     elaborate on that now because you are completely innocent here.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1002, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a video, and we can also

Page 11270

 1     make a still, because we have a similar video from Mr. Hogan.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You also investigated -- or, rather, examined and documented the

 4     place of the F10 incident that happened on the 22nd of July, 1994.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And to make things easier, can we

 6     call up 1D3110.  This is 6-007-1-A, from 1:58:10 to 1:58:43.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In this case, did the witness show you the place where they were

 9     wounded and the place happened to be on the corner -- it happened to be

10     between a shoe shop on the corner and the passage between two buildings?

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "Could you please show me where your sister was at the time that

13     you were shot to the best of [indiscernible] were shot."

14             THE WITNESS:  To my knowledge, this happened in front of the

15     shop.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Let's play it so we can see the witness show you the place.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "But I am going to give you some instructions.  Could you please

20     show me the location where, to the best of your recollection, you were

21     stopped, seated upon your bicycle, at the time that you were shot?

22             "I will now mark this location in yellow spray paint with the

23     figure X."

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11271

 1        Q.   Do you know in which street this film was made?  What is this

 2     street?  If I can help you, is this Dzemal Bijedic Street?

 3        A.   I believe that's in front of the building.  It's known locally as

 4     the hundred metre building on Ferde Hauptmana Street.  Actually,

 5     Ferde Hauptmana is the square behind it, but it's known as that address.

 6                           [Video-clip played].

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 09645.

 8     Page 1.  65 ter 09645.  We can skip that.  Can we see instead 09652.  We

 9     don't have time, and we're moving rather slowly.  65 ter 09652.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, this is

11     Exhibit P19.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see it?

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Okay.  We see page 1.  Do you see that it says Sarajevo,

15     Miljenka Cvitkovica Street number 4?

16        A.   Are you talking about the one at the bottom, the incident at the

17     bottom?  I think that's a different incident.

18        Q.   I think it's the same.  We'll see in a moment.  We see the date

19     22nd July 1994.  Is that when the incident happened, 22nd --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic is referring to the B/C/S version,

21     second line, but we must have a translation for this.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Well, here's the translation:

24             "[In English] Photo 5.  Reference:  Sniper wounds.  Place:

25     Sarajevo, Miljenka Cvitkovica Street 4.  Date of photo --"

Page 11272

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it's photo file.  Place:  Sarajevo,

 2     Miljenka Cvitkovica Street 4.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Perhaps if I could see the next page.  I'm not sure

 4     which incident this reference is.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see this --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I see it.  Yes, that's right.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you know this cafe?

 9        A.   I've been to that cafe, yes.

10        Q.   Do you know that the traces -- the evidence was led about this

11     incident based on the traces of damage on this cafe, and that's in that

12     documentation.

13        A.   There was damage on that cafe, and I believe there was damage on

14     the window of the -- the shoe store, which is just to the right of the

15     edge of this photograph, on the other side of the passageway that's

16     visible.  And, of course, there was damage on the young boy.

17        Q.   Do you remember that this cafe is located in a completely

18     different street, Dzemal Bijedic Street, which never changed its name?

19        A.   I'm not sure about the name of the street at the time, but this

20     is the cafe, that's the passageway, and just off the edge of the

21     photograph is the shoe store where this incident happened.

22        Q.   But the shoe shop is in a completely different street that was

23     called once Miljenka Cvitkovica and now it's called Ferde Hauptmana, and

24     this cafe is in a completely different street on the opposite side of the

25     block?

Page 11273

 1        A.   That's not true.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we show the witness the next page of this

 3     document, both in B/C/S and English.

 4             Is this the one you refer to as the shoe shop?

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hayden.

12             MR. HAYDEN:  Yes, Mr. President.  We need a redaction of that

13     last answer, and although it hasn't been tendered for admission, if it

14     is, the video does need to go under seal.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

17        Q.   The problem, Mr. Hogan, is the fact that the Street of Dzemala

18     Bijedica did not change its name, and it's not Miljenka Cvitkovica.

19     Perhaps the incident did occur in the Miljenka Cvitkovica, but it was

20     investigated in the street of Dzemala Bijedica.

21        A.   Well, I have no control over what the investigator at the time

22     wrote down for a street address, but this is the location.  Whatever the

23     street address was, this is the location that's depicted in the

24     photographs.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 11274

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, what we

 2     displayed?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  It has already been admitted as P19.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The previous one, the video we

 5     showed, 1D3110.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it under seal.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1003, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We have to hurry.  Let

 9     us move on to F7 in this case.  It's the 25th of May, 1995.  You were

10     taken there as well.  So could the distinguished Mr. Hayden tell us

11     whether we can have this broadcast, whether this is a protected witness.

12     Incident F7.

13             MR. HAYDEN:  Sorry, Mr. President.  I'm -- I'm unable to make

14     that determination without seeing who is on that video, so please --

15             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, let's not broadcast this video.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now have played

17     1D3111 from 58:09 up until 1:02:08.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "Would you please show me by standing at the location where the

20     front of the bus was located at the time it was hit by a bullet, to the

21     best of your recollection.

22             "I will now mark this line with yellow paint.

23             "Could you please show me where the side of the bus was.

24             "I will now mark that line with yellow paint.

25             "Could you please show me by standing on the location where, to

Page 11275

 1     the best of your recollection, you were located at the time the bus was

 2     hit by a bullet.

 3             "[Indiscernible]

 4             "I will now mark that with a figure X and a number 1.

 5             "Could you please show me by standing on the spot where, to the

 6     best of your recollection, the bullet hit the side of the bus.

 7             "I will now mark this spot with X and the number 2.

 8             "To the best of your recollection, can you show me where

 9     passenger A was seated.

10             "[Interpretation] Here.

11             "Thank you.  I will place a number 3 beside this location.

12             "Could you please show me, to the best of your recollection,

13     where passenger B was located.

14             "I will mark this spot with an X and a number 4.

15             "Could you please indicate by pointing which direction the bus

16     was facing.

17             "Could you please indicate by pointing from which direction, to

18     the best of your recollection, you heard the gunshot at or near the time

19     that the bus was impacted by the bullet.

20             "And finally, could you please show me where the back of the bus

21     was located to the best of your recollection."

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you help us with this:  Can you tell us what the orientation

25     would be in terms of cardinal points over here?

Page 11276

 1        A.   The -- this is -- this is in Dobrinja.  The front of the bus, as

 2     indicated by the witness, would have been facing south-west, I believe,

 3     and the camera right now is facing south-east.

 4        Q.   The camera that is filming this, not the one that can be seen in

 5     the background; right?

 6        A.   Correct.  The one that can be seen in the background would be

 7     facing north-west.  I'm sorry, I'm not sure what I just answered for the

 8     camera that we're looking from.  The camera angle that's being shown now

 9     is facing south-east, and the one that's -- that's in the background is

10     facing north-west.

11        Q.   Thank you.  This witness is indicating that the bullet had come

12     from the north-west; right?

13        A.   Yes.  From the direction of Nedzarici, yes.

14        Q.   We are going to establish whether it was actually from Nedzarici,

15     but the important thing is that it's north-west.  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

18             MR. HAYDEN:  It may be a public exhibit.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  Exhibit D1004.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             "This is shelling incident number 1.

22             "Once again, could you please stand on the spot --"

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could you please stop it.  Yes, Mr. Hayden.

24             MR. HAYDEN:  Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt the video-clip.  I

25     can raise this afterwards but I just wanted to note, looking at the time,

Page 11277

 1     that I do have around five minutes of re-direct examination.  I didn't

 2     want to run out of time at the end.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We have a separate fixed witness for the next week.

 4     Is my understanding correct, Mr. Tieger?

 5             How much longer would you need for this witness, Mr. Karadzic?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would need another hour,

 7     but I'll try to fit into the time that you have given me.  If we could go

 8     on a few minutes after 2.30, that would be useful.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Let me consult my colleagues.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  If -- if you would be able to finish your

12     cross-examination till -- we'll give additional 15 minutes, we'll do

13     that, but otherwise, we may think about interposing this witness with the

14     next witness, given that Mr. Hogan is working here.  So there should be

15     no difficulty in calling him again if necessary.  So I leave it in your

16     hands, Mr. --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll do my best to

18     finish.  If necessary, we're going to ask for him to come and testify

19     again.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Hogan, you have also been shown this incident G4, rather, the

22     location of incident G4 from this case, and that is a question -- no.

23     Actually, it is shelling.  The shelling of a playground; right?  1D3112.

24     That's it; right?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this played.

Page 11278

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             "Show me by standing on the spot where, to the best of your

 3     recollection, the second shell exploded on the 1st of June, 1993."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did this witness show you the location -- or, rather, the damage

 6     that was sustained and this red mass?

 7        A.   What he was showing me was a -- was a crater created by a shell

 8     that had been preserved by pouring in red-coloured cement-type or

 9     asphalt-type sealant.

10        Q.   Thank you.  According to this film, you were shown the location

11     where the second shell fell, the second one in that incident; right?

12        A.   In -- in this film clip, yes.  In previous -- if you had seen

13     previously, he would have shown the first shell.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please confirm that the witness indicated to

15     you the direction from which he heard the shot?

16        A.   I don't recall.  I don't recall.  I'd have to watch the whole

17     film clip.  I just don't really remember.

18        Q.   Do you know that tempore criminis, that is to say, at the time of

19     the incident -- or, rather, in November 1995, when an investigation was

20     carried out after the incident, that the local police established that

21     the second shell fell on the soil and that there were no traces of the

22     second shell on the asphalt.  The second one fell into a field, a garden,

23     whereas the first one fell on asphalt.

24        A.   I know that that's what the investigation report said of their

25     efforts two and a half years after this incident happened, but this

Page 11279

 1     witness lives in the area.  He was there at the time.  I think I'll go

 2     with what he told me.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So this witness showed you two craters on an asphalt

 4     surface; right?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   In 2001; right?

 7        A.   I believe -- yes, it was 2001 we filmed this.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The incident took place on the 1st of June, 1993.

 9     The investigation was carried out in November 1995, and it was

10     established then that there is one crater on the asphalt and that the

11     second shell fell into soft soil that was covered with some vegetation

12     and the crater could not have been examined at all.  Do you see that

13     there is something wrong there?

14        A.   Yes, I see the discrepancy, yes.

15        Q.   Also, this investigation in 1995 was carried out in the presence

16     of representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor.  So a representative

17     of the OTP was there when it was established that there is one crater on

18     the asphalt surface.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Witness.

20             Mr. Hayden, please.

21             MR. HAYDEN:  I believe it's on our 65 ter list, maybe already

22     admitted as an exhibit, but could we have a reference for this

23     investigation of 1995 so we can make sure we're all referring to the same

24     document.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can tell you the 65 ter number.

Page 11280

 1     09970, page 4 in Serbian.  It is the local investigation.  In English it

 2     is page 5.  The number is the same.  And the number of the

 3     investigation -- I don't know the exact number of the Prosecution.  It's

 4     probably the same number, but the English and Serbian are 0 --

 5     65 ter 09970.  The Serbian version page 4, the English page 5.  That was

 6     the representative of the Prosecution.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1699, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit 1699?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  P1699, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If necessary, let's.  Let us see

12     perhaps see this page in e-court.

13             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, the first

15     investigation in 1995 was carried out two and a half years after the

16     incident had occurred and there were not two craters then.

17             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question to the witness?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question to the witness is

19     whether he is aware of the fact that he had been misinformed -- or,

20     rather, that they did not show him what the actual situation was, namely

21     that there was a significant discrepancy.  That has been confirmed by the

22     witness.

23             THE WITNESS:  I did answer that I -- I see the discrepancy, but I

24     don't believe I was deliberately misled by this witness that we're seeing

25     on the film.  He's showing me what to the best of his recollection and

Page 11281

 1     knowledge actually happened on that day.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't want to accuse this

 3     witness, but it is a fact that in 1995 there were not two craters there.

 4     Otherwise they would have been dealt with.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Don't you agree that the right thing to do would have been to

 7     carry out the investigation on the 1st and 2nd of June, 1993, that that

 8     would have been a proper investigation?

 9        A.   I do believe that there were -- there were efforts to do so, in

10     fact, by the UN commission of experts that were in Sarajevo, but they

11     were unable to get to Dobrinja because of the danger and there was

12     ongoing shell-fire, and they could not safely attend that scene to do the

13     investigation.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been admitted?  Is this

16     video part of some exhibit?  1D31112.  The one that we showed.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1005, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You said and you confirmed today and I think that's contained in

22     the statement as well that it was your task to collect inculpatory and

23     exculpatory material during this expedition of yours.  Did you collect

24     any exculpatory evidence?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11282

 1        Q.   Are we going to get that?

 2        A.   I do believe that there has been a lot of disclosure under

 3     Rule 68 made to you.  It was made to Stanislav Galic -- sorry, to

 4     Dragomir Milosevic in that case, and I do believe it's been disclosed to

 5     you as well under Rule 68.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did they inform you about the deployment of forces?

 7     Were you aware of the fact that this was urban warfare, the front line

 8     went through the streets, actually through buildings themselves?

 9        A.   I know that there were portions of the front line that did go

10     through city streets, yes.

11        Q.   Did they inform you during that tour of yours about the

12     deployment of forces?  Do you know, for example, who was at Grdonj and

13     who was at Hum?  These two hills are impressive, and you remembered them.

14        A.   I'm not sure which tour you're talking about, but during my

15     investigation and my involvement in the various Sarajevo cases, I do know

16     that Hum and Grdonj were within the ABiH lines, although they're --

17     that's -- that's a broad way to say -- of saying it regarding Grdonj

18     because -- for various reasons.

19        Q.   Yes.  Yes.  I meant your stay, that one-week stay.  I'm not

20     underestimating it in any way, or its importance, this investigation,

21     this one-week-long investigation.

22             Do you know about the other positions in town, who was deployed

23     where?

24        A.   In general terms, but I would probably have to refer to a map for

25     more -- to be able to answer precisely for positions.

Page 11283

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I received interpretation today that you said that

 2     Colonel Demurenko had been loaned to UNPROFOR.  Was he part of UNPROFOR

 3     just like all other officers were belonging to different nationalities?

 4        A.   Yes.  I don't know if that word "loaned" is accurate.  It's

 5     seconded or assigned to UNPROFOR.  His status was the same as all other

 6     UNPROFOR officers, as far as I know.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what Colonel Demurenko's position was in

 8     the Sarajevo command?

 9        A.   I believe he was the Chief of Staff of Sector Sarajevo.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you said today that Demurenko used

11     M-52 tables?

12        A.   That's what he showed on the video which was used in -- by the

13     Defence in the Dragomir Milosevic case, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  We have information that he used TG120 M-75 tables.

15     So we are going to collate that.

16             All right.  Tell us now, on pages 37 and 38 in P2214, you --

17     actually, can we have that, P2114.  Is it correct that you were sent to

18     locations that are on the northern slopes of Trebevic, that is to say,

19     those slopes of Trebevic that are facing the city itself?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that they were trying to justify the fact

22     that they did not see the shells was due to the fact, as they say, that

23     they were fired from the southern slope of the hill?  Did anybody tell

24     you about that?

25        A.   Who are you saying "they"?  I'm not sure who you're referring to.

Page 11284

 1     They didn't see the shell, or they didn't know, or they told.  Who's

 2     "they"?

 3        Q.   OP 1, I think.  I think that is observation point 1 below this

 4     trajectory that you drew.  They said that they did not hear or see any

 5     shells, and the justification was that the shell had been fired from the

 6     other side of Trebevic, from behind the mountain.  But all right.  You

 7     don't really have to deal with that?

 8             Did you choose these locations?

 9        A.   I can answer that if you wish.  The fact is that OP 1 was on the

10     slopes of Colina Kapa, which has rising ground behind it to the north of

11     it.  So Trebevic is largely shadowed by the slopes of Colina Kapa.

12     That's why -- it wasn't suggested that the mortar was fired from the

13     southern slopes of Trebevic.  It was suggested that it was fired on the

14     other side of Colina Kapa, which would be the north slopes of Trebevic.

15        Q.   Please, did you choose these locations, or did somebody suggest

16     them to you?

17        A.   Colonel Demurenko chose these locations.

18        Q.   Do you know at what angle of descent shells fall from these

19     locations?  What angles would that have to be?  Let me better ask you:

20     Do you know where the front line runs through here?

21        A.   At the time it was along the Pale road, which would be -- I mean,

22     I can mark it if you wish.

23        Q.   Could you please mark that and tell us who controlled Colina Kapa

24     at the time.

25        A.   [Marks].  And Colina Kapa was in ABiH territory at the time.

Page 11285

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that between the front line and Markale

 2     there is at least 2.5 -- 2.5 kilometres, if not even more than that?

 3        A.   No.  You can see on this -- on this satellite photo the

 4     2.000-metre mark is already on the slopes of Trebevic, south of the front

 5     line.

 6        Q.   But there was no less than 1.500 metres, according to your map;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Right.  From the front line to Markale about -- yes, about 15,

 9     1.600 metres, yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you put the date and the signature, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1006, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we didn't admit the video-clip that

16     was played, which is 1D3099, on the ground that it has been already

17     admitted, but I was advised it was not admitted, so we will admit it.

18     Relevant transcript page number is page 66, lines 10 to 13.  So we will

19     give a separate number for this.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That is Exhibit D1007, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Karadzic, if you are able to

22     conclude in ten minutes' time, we'll continue, but otherwise -- yes, you

23     can?  Let's do that, then.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can.  I'll do my best.

25             Could we now take a look at 65 ter 10419 -- or, rather, it's

Page 11286

 1     P2209.  Exhibited today.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Please tell us --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You marked this today.  Were you informed that the shots came

 7     from the location that is marked here, from that direction?

 8        A.   I don't recall.  This incident is one of the tram sniping

 9     incidents, and I don't recall what the evidence was as per the direction

10     or source of fire.

11        Q.   You were asked earlier today to mark high-rises on Grbavica, and

12     that's when you put this marking; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see I think it's 210 --

16     P2210.  I think I've got it wrong.  We can't see much here.  Perhaps we

17     should try that part that relates to Spicasta Stijena, Sharpstone, F17.

18     2211.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While we're waiting, to the best of your knowledge, is it easy

21     for a sniper to target a moving streetcar, a tram, in motion?  Would the

22     sight on the sniper rifle compensate for the movement or would it be

23     difficult?

24        A.   Well, we have had evidence from a sniping expert, but as somebody

25     who has used firearms in the past, I would say it would be extremely easy

Page 11287

 1     to target at that moving tram.

 2        Q.   You mean to say that the movement of the target does not create

 3     great optical distortion and instability.  Does it provide for great

 4     instability or not?

 5        A.   If your object is to hit the tram, it is a huge target, and I

 6     don't think there'd be any difficulty hitting it with either telescopic

 7     sights, open sights, machine-gun.  It would not be a difficult target.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know the distance between Sharpstone and the

 9     Sedrenik Street?  Is this Sedrenik Street that you marked?

10        A.   This is Sedrenik Street.  I don't recall.  I was with the expert

11     when he took measurements from all these locations.  I just don't recall

12     what numbers he obtained and included in his report.

13        Q.   Just one more question.  Do you recall that earlier today you

14     marked Pofalici on a photograph at the request of Mr. Hayden?

15        A.   Yes, I remember.

16        Q.   Do you know whose neighbourhood it is?  Is it a Serb or a Muslim

17     neighbourhood?

18        A.   I think it's mixed, as far as I know.

19        Q.   Do you know that it was controlled by the Muslim army during the

20     war?

21        A.   Well, everything within the cease-fire -- the confrontation lines

22     in Sarajevo was controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so it does

23     not surprise me.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did anyone inform you that already by 15 May 1992,

25     all the Serbs in Pofalici were killed and their houses destroyed?

Page 11288

 1             JUDGE KWON:  It's not for the witness to answer that question.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not asking whether it was a

 3     fact.  I'm just asking the witness if he had been informed about that.

 4     He was an investigator, after all, so he could answer whether he got that

 5     information or not.  Anyway, thank you, Mr. Hogan.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you can ask the question, but I doubt the

 7     necessity of it.

 8             Mr. Hayden.

 9             MR. HAYDEN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Hayden:

11        Q.   Mr. Hogan, during Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination some time was

12     spent on incident F12, which relates to Dzenana Sokolovic and her son,

13     and there was discussion about the location, this precise location of the

14     victims when they were shot.  My first question is:  Generally speaking,

15     when you went to these locations with the witnesses, did you give them

16     their statements to refresh their memories prior to asking them to mark

17     the locations?

18        A.   No.  They did not refer to statements or other documents that we

19     had in our possession with the OTP.  They were relying solely upon their

20     own memory.

21        Q.   And did you -- for example, if there was a relevant video of the

22     incident or the aftermath of the incident, was it shown to them?

23        A.   No, it was not.

24             MR. HAYDEN:  I ask to go to Sanction and ask Mr. Reid to play

25     65 ter 40110.  This is a very -- relatively short clip of about

Page 11289

 1     50 seconds.  I'll ask to play it through and then go back to two places

 2     in this clip.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. HAYDEN:  Sorry, we can stop the clip there.

 5        Q.   First, Mr. Hogan, do you recognise anyone in this clip?

 6        A.   I recognise the body of young Nermin Sokolovic.  He was the

 7     victim, and I have seen photos of the rescue personnel before, but I do

 8     not recognise anyone else.

 9        Q.   Is -- and I believe it was Dzenana Sokolovic who was in the clip

10     with you that Mr. Karadzic played the footage.  Do you see her in this

11     footage?

12        A.   I don't recognise her.  If she's in this footage, I really don't

13     recognise her.

14             MR. HAYDEN:  If we can go back to the 28-second mark and pause it

15     there.

16        Q.   Now, do you see where the victim is lying here?  Can you describe

17     the road that the victim is lying upon?  Do you see, for example, the

18     white markings underneath the victim?

19        A.   Yes.  This appears to be a cross-walk across the street, a

20     pedestrian crosswalk.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. HAYDEN:  If I can admit this clip, the 50 seconds we've just

23     played now, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2216, Your Honours.

Page 11290

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And I was advised that we omitted admitting one

 2     video-clip during the Defence examination, which is 1D3100.  That will be

 3     admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1008, Your Honours.

 5             MR. HAYDEN:  That concludes the direct examination.  I notice

 6     that the video-clip we played was played without sound.  It is the

 7     intention to have it admitted with the sound.  There is a soundtrack to

 8     it.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any problem admitting with sound.

10             Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Hogan.  Thank you for

11     coming.

12             There's one matter --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I -- just one question.  Has

14     the whole clip that has been played been admitted?  Are we now able to

15     use all of it?  Have we admitted the clip or just the still?

16             JUDGE KWON:  We have admitted the clip that has been played.

17             Thank you.  Now you're free to go, but in the meantime, we go

18     into private session briefly.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20            [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of  Chamber]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in private session, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  It's about Mr. Zecevic, Mr. Tieger.  Rather than

23     send a letter to -- as requested by the Prosecution, the Chamber deemed

24     it to be more efficient to ask the VWS to call the witness and convey

25     certain information to him, as well as explore the possibility of his

Page 11291

 1     testifying as a Chamber witness.  The VWS has reported the result of that

 2     conversation to the Chamber, and it is clear that the witness is not

 3     willing to testify as a Chamber witness.  Therefore, the Chamber would

 4     like to ask the Prosecution whether they now wish to request that an

 5     order in lieu of indictment and warrant of arrest be issued for the

 6     witness or whether they consider that there's another course of action to

 7     be taken.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Well, obviously, Your Honour, we would prefer

 9     another course if one could be identified.  I don't see one under the

10     circumstances.  Perhaps not withstanding the Court's explanation about

11     the feedback following VWS contact, we might identify some additional

12     option if we had a brief conversation with VWS.  We'd be prepared to do

13     that for the sole purpose of considering any possibilities that we -- we

14     didn't, but otherwise, I think it's clear that the warrant will have to

15     issue.

16             So I would say we should move forward on that unless the Court

17     hears otherwise from the Prosecution through your Legal Officer by the

18     end of this afternoon.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We are looking forward to hearing from

20     you.

21             The hearing is now adjourned, and I thank you -- we go back to

22     open session.

23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE KWON:  And I appreciate very much the indulgence of the

25     staff.  Have a nice weekend and we will resume on Tuesday at 9.00.

Page 11292

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day

 3                           of February, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.