Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12051

 1                           Thursday, 17 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning.  Today we are

 6     to hear evidence of KDZ 041 via videolink.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there are some matters to deal with before

 9     we start hearing the evidence.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, there are two matters.  First of all,

11     I understand the witness has with him some notes in -- where he is now

12     and he wishes to refer to them during his evidence, and I've -- he may

13     wish to address the Chamber on that.  I've advised him that it would be

14     better if he put those notes to one side during his evidence and simply

15     testified without referring to them.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let us deal with it by ear.  Yes, thank you

17     for the information.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  The other matter is the motion which we filed

19     confidentially, perhaps we could go into private session for that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We go into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12052











11  Page 12052 redacted. Private session.















Page 12053

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, before we bring in the witness,

11     Mr. President, if I could be heard on a motion concerning the

12     cross-examination of this witness.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  We would like to make a motion to postpone the

15     cross-examination of this witness.  It was revealed to us first in the

16     motion that we received late last night that I don't think Mr. Karadzic

17     has received yet himself, but it was revealed that the witness had given

18     testimony in a state court proceeding in Bosnia about these same events,

19     and then more details were provided to us this morning by the Prosecution

20     that the testimony took place in 2009.  Now, this is a witness who we

21     have only prior statements from, no prior -- this witness hasn't

22     testified in any previous proceedings, and therefore, the testimony of

23     this -- the transcript of this testimony would be the only opportunity we

24     would have to review any cross-examination material or questions by a

25     judge.  So we think that it's more significant than it might otherwise be

Page 12054

 1     in an ordinary case.

 2             The witness declined to be interviewed by our Defence team so we

 3     didn't have the opportunity to even find out about the fact that the

 4     witness had given prior testimony.  As we've said, it wasn't disclosed to

 5     us until last evening.

 6             Now, you know that we have filed a motion for the Prosecution to

 7     be ordered to inquire of its witnesses and obtain for us prior statements

 8     of witnesses or testimony in other trials in state proceedings which are

 9     not in their possession, and we recognise that you denied that motion on

10     the 12th of January of 2011.  And also, on the 8th of February, we take

11     into account the fact that you told Dr. Karadzic not to tilt at

12     windmills, as it were, and pursue every possible document from other

13     proceedings and you told him to consult with experienced Defence counsel

14     about that.  And I'm an experienced Defence counsel and I'll tell you

15     that my own experience is that these prior statements and particularly

16     prior testimony are of a lot of importance in assessing the credibility

17     of witnesses.

18             If you look at the judgement in the Rwamakuba case at the ICTR,

19     you'll see that that case was an incidence where witnesses testified

20     under pseudonyms for the Prosecution in Arusha and then went back to

21     Rwanda and made many testimonies in Gacaca proceedings, in front of their

22     own people and under their own names, and those testimonies were very

23     different than the testimonies they had given with pseudonyms in Arusha.

24     And as a result of that, Mr. Rwamakuba was acquitted because those

25     testimonies undermined the testimony in court.  And since then, in many

Page 12055

 1     cases at the ICTR, Gacaca proceeding testimonies and, indeed, state court

 2     proceeding testimonies have been found to undermine the credibility of

 3     Prosecution witnesses.  So we feel that there is at least a good reason

 4     why we should have access to the cross-examination and the testimony of

 5     this witness before conducting our cross-examination.  Thank you.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  If I can respond, Mr. President?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  First of all, we don't have a copy of the transcript

 9     in question.  Second, we discovered yesterday at about 3.15 p.m. that the

10     witness had previously testified before the state court of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Third, he testified as a protected witness in those

12     proceedings.  Now, obviously where a person testifies as a protected

13     witness in domestic proceedings, there is a concern that we do not

14     violate any protective measures in force in those domestic proceedings.

15     Fourth, the witness did consent today to the disclosure of this fact of

16     his prior testimony to the Karadzic Defence, and within minutes of his

17     consent, we informed the Karadzic Defence of that.  Finally, as for the

18     correct remedy, in my submission, the correct remedy is for

19     cross-examination to continue today, for the Defence to get a copy of the

20     transcript in question, they can then review the transcript in question

21     and then can do one of two things.  They can either tender that

22     transcript for admission before the Court, without recalling the witness,

23     or they can make an application to recall the witness for further

24     cross-examination.  But I think we should go ahead today with at least an

25     initial cross-examination of the witness.

Page 12056

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Whether it is a violation or not is one thing, but

 2     one thing -- and the -- to have a proper preparation is quite another.

 3             Yes Mr. Tieger?  Do you have any observations.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Just to make one, Your Honour, but it's on the heels

 5     of a conversation I had with Mr. Robinson this morning.  And following

 6     that conversation, I was surprised that the -- that it was up to

 7     Mr. Gaynor to clarify that what Mr. Robinson knew, that is that we had

 8     just received that, that we are -- that we have been engaged in

 9     precisely -- in fulfilling precisely the agreement reached with the

10     accused to inquire of witnesses during the course of making travel

11     arrangements and during their proofing about such matters.  It didn't

12     arise here because this witness was in Sarajevo.  Mr. Robinson sent an

13     e-mail earlier today about this.  We had a discussion about it.  He

14     agreed that the Prosecution is acting in full good faith and in a

15     proactive manner and in accordance with the agreement to obtain

16     information about prior testimonies.  So I apologise for raising that.

17     I wouldn't have, although I was a little concerned about the fact that

18     there might have been an implication left in the manner in which

19     Mr. Robinson raised this issue.  I wasn't going to rise.  But since the

20     Court raised the possibility of a violation, I thought I needed to do so

21     because there is no issue about that here.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I meant to say although it is not a violation of any

23     disclosure obligation, we need to consider whether Defence has some time

24     to review the transcript.  That was the point.  Probably I was not clear.

25             Just a second.

Page 12057

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger, for myself, I certainly didn't

 3     understand Mr. Robinson to be criticising the Prosecution.  And from what

 4     I've heard, it seems to me, for myself, I would have thought the

 5     Prosecution had behaved perfectly in this case.  But, Mr. Robinson, might

 6     there not be some value in cross-examining today, seeing what answers are

 7     given, and then having something concrete to compare with the transcript

 8     of the other proceedings as and when you get them?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  I understand that, but I actually think when we

10     have absolutely no prior cross-examination of this witness before to

11     actually embark on a cross-examination with -- essentially without the

12     benefit of that might be more detrimental than beneficial to us in this

13     case.  In other cases, where we are talking about one additional

14     statement or -- such as with General Smith or with Captain Rechner, when

15     this issue arose before, we didn't ask that the testimony be postponed.

16     We just reserved the right to try to call them back if we learned

17     anything from their other testimonies.  But here, when we have absolutely

18     no other prior testimony of a witness, I think it would be more

19     detrimental than beneficial to launch a cross-examination and then try to

20     patch it up later.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber -- before we consider the matter, can

22     I ask, just in case, Mr. Gaynor, whether the next witness is available?

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, the next witness is in The Hague but I do not

24     believe he's been brought from his hotel just yet.  Could I point out one

25     matter in private session, please?

Page 12058

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will go into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12059

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We granted the image distortion on the same

10     ground on which we granted the pseudonym to this witness.  Yes,

11     Mr. Gaynor, you just informed me that the computer is now

12     working.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, that's correct, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with the suggestion made by

15     Mr. Gaynor, so we decided to go to hear the cross-examination by the

16     Defence, but we'll favourably consider when Defence makes a motion to

17     recall the witness on the ground of the newly disclosed transcript.

18             Yes.  Let's bring in the witness.

19             THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The

20     witness is ready to take the solemn declaration.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Good morning, Mr. Witness.

22             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly take the solemn declaration?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Page 12060

 1                           WITNESS:  KDZ041

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you are already aware, for security reasons

 5     you will be called as just Mr. Witness or with your pseudonym, which is

 6     KDZ041, and any other people outside the courtroom will not be able to

 7     see your image.  Do you understand?  Are you following what I'm saying,

 8     Mr. Witness?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't hear anything.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you hear me now, Mr. Witness?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no translation.

12             THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]:  Your Honours, we seem to have a

13     technical problem.  I'm just calling for some assistance.

14                      [French interpretation on English channel]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, can you follow in the language you

16     understand?

17             THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]:  Your Honours, it appears that the

18     problem persists, so kindly bear with us until we get some technical

19     help.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]:  Somebody's on his way now.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we adjourn for ten minutes?  That seems to be

23     a sensible solution.  We'll adjourn for ten minutes.

24                           --- Break taken at 9.33 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 9.48 a.m.

Page 12061

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Witness, again.  Do you follow the

 2     proceedings in the language you understand?  I will try again.

 3             Mr. Witness, do you follow the proceedings in the language that

 4     you understand?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Probably you are already aware, in any

 7     event I want to double check, for security reasons you will be called as

 8     just Mr. Witness or by your pseudonym, which is KDZ041.  Therefore -- and

 9     you will be granted the protective measures of image distortion, which

10     means people outside this courtroom will not be able to see your image.

11     Do you understand?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Furthermore, whenever we discuss matters which may

14     reveal your identity, we will go into private session, thereby the people

15     outside the courtroom will not be able to follow the proceedings and the

16     transcript of which will not be revealed to the public.

17             And one matter I wanted to clarify with you is that you want to

18     take a break every hour?  My question is how long.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  How long should that break be?  I.e., how long do

21     you need to take a break every hour?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between 15 and 20 minutes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will take a 20-minutes break every

24     hour.

25             Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

Page 12062

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm not sure if the witness has taken the oath yet,

 2     Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  He did.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 6        Q.   Witness, good morning.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that you've previously provided statements to the

 9     authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina and you've provided information to

10     the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up 65 ter 90224.

13        Q.   While that's coming, Witness, did you, with the assistance of an

14     interpreter, review an amalgamated statement which contains relevant

15     portions of information which you provided in previous witness

16     statements?

17        A.   Yes, I have.

18        Q.   Do you have a copy of that document in front of you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you confirm that that is your name on the first page of that

21     document?

22        A.   Yes, I can.

23        Q.   Now, if you were questioned today about the same events, would

24     you provide the same information to the Trial Chamber?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12063

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  I seek admission of that document under seal,

 2     Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2310, under seal, Your Honours.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to read a summary for the public of the

 6     evidence which has just been admitted.

 7             The witness speaks about events in the Novi Grad municipality.

 8     Momcilo Krajisnik was the principal SDS figure in the area.  Other Serb

 9     military and political leaders in the area included Jovan Tintor,

10     Nikola Stanisic and Ranko Torbica.  Nikola Stanisic and Ranko Torbica

11     told Muslim inhabitants --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Now do you follow the proceedings, Mr. Witness?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Gaynor.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             Nikola Stanisic and Ranko Torbica told the Muslim inhabitants of

19     Ahatovici that they would be attacked if they did not vacate the village.

20     Armed Serb groups threatened and harassed the local population.

21             By May 1992, Serb families had vacated areas surrounding

22     Ahatovici.  Serb paramilitaries including Arkanovci and White Eagles came

23     to the area.  By mid-May, telephone and electricity were disconnected.

24     On 27th May 1992, Serb forces with tanks and armoured vehicles took up

25     positions around Ahatovici and ordered the Muslim inhabitants to

Page 12064

 1     surrender.  There was limited resistance.  A stronger attack was launched

 2     by the Serb forces a couple of days later.  15 to 20 Muslim inhabitants

 3     were killed and about 130 houses damaged or destroyed.  The witness

 4     attempted to escape in a group of about 30 men but was caught by Serb

 5     forces.  The group was split in two and about 15 men were executed by the

 6     Serb forces.  Jovan Tintor was present shortly after the execution and

 7     ordered that the surviving men be taken away.

 8             The Muslim men from Ahatovici were taken to a location outside a

 9     supermarket near Butile barracks.  Several men were taken away in groups

10     of four and were viciously beaten by Serb soldiers and local Serbs.  The

11     Muslim men were taken and detained in two empty fuel cisterns located

12     next to the army barracks at Rajlovac.  While detained at the cisterns,

13     the men were taken out and beaten severely.  The commander of those

14     guarding the cisterns was Mile Stojanovic.  The witness was one of

15     approximately 55 prisoners who were taken out of one of the cisterns,

16     placed on a bus and driven by a man called Zuti towards Semizovac.  Zuti

17     was said to be the driver of Jovan Tintor.  The bus was escorted by four

18     vehicles which contained armed men.  The bus was stopped in the village

19     of Sokolina.  The men on the bus were ordered not to get up or they would

20     be shot.  Shortly after the guards and driver had got off the bus, the

21     bus was fired upon for about 15 minutes.  Almost all the men on the bus

22     were killed.

23             That ends the public summary.

24        Q.   Witness, I want to take you now to the moment during the attack

25     on Ahatovici where your group of 30 men were arrested.  Do you recall

Page 12065

 1     that?

 2        A.   Yes.  Half of the people were killed, half were arrested.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  This is at the top of page 7 for the other

 4     participants in the courtroom.

 5        Q.   Witness, you said that half of the people were killed and I want

 6     you to describe what exactly you saw during that incident.

 7        A.   When we tried to make a breakthrough to the nearby forest and

 8     head onwards to Visoko, fierce infantry fire was opened from the forest

 9     and from the surrounding area at a group that was in a plum grove.  Some

10     ten men were either shot dead or wounded.  I was among the wounded.

11     I was wounded in the leg.  Since there was no other way out for us, the

12     Chetniks surrounded us and those who were able to walk or were slightly

13     injured were taken to a nearby field.  They told us to sit down on the

14     ground and to put our hands behind our heads.  Next to me was a cousin of

15     mine who nodded his head towards me and said there were Bato Arnautovic

16     and Dragan Koprivica there.  The two approached the dead and the

17     seriously wounded and shot them.  I also noticed when they took out their

18     knives, they grabbed Jusuf Suljic, aka Juka, by the head and slit his

19     throat.  Also they did the same to Nihad Tomo.  One of the soldiers

20     shouted at us, "Bow your heads.  Otherwise I'll kill you all."  At that

21     moment, from the direction of the houses in Kalkan [phoen], an officer

22     appeared and came close.  One of the soldiers, Stevo Petricevic --

23        Q.   I'll stop you there, Witness, please.  Witness, I'd like to ask

24     you a couple of questions about the description you've just given.  In

25     the group of people who were shot at, you said some were dead already.

Page 12066

 1     Can you give an estimate as to the number of men who were, in fact,

 2     killed in that specific incident who were not already dead?

 3        A.   Around 15.

 4        Q.   Were any of those men, of those 15, armed at that moment?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Now, I'd like to move on to the arrival of Tintor, which you

 7     describe in your statement and you describe it at paragraph 27 of your

 8     statement.  First of all, could you give me the full name of Joja Tintor?

 9        A.   Jovan Tintor.  His nickname is Joja.

10        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 23, you describe Tintor as the

11     commander of the enemy formation.  And elsewhere you referred to him as

12     being in a position of command.  What was it that you saw which led you

13     to believe that he was in command?

14        A.   First and foremost, a relative of mine who led the group from the

15     village when they went to negotiate at the Butile barracks had

16     Jovan Tintor there, on the other side, as well as Nikola Stanisic and the

17     rest.  That's what he told us about when he came back from the

18     negotiations.

19             The second thing I wish to point out is that when we were taken

20     prisoner, when Joja Tintor came to us, he introduced himself to us and he

21     asked whether there were any wounded persons there.  And from his

22     military bag he took something out and gave us something to keep us warm.

23     He wore the summer uniform of the JNA.  He had a pistol at the waist.  He

24     had a military bag, and on his head, he wore a cap with a five-pointed

25     red star.

Page 12067

 1        Q.   And what was it your relative had told you, after coming back

 2     from negotiations with Tintor, about Tintor's position?

 3        A.   He said that they had negotiated, that they had demanded that men

 4     from the age of 15 to 70 surrender to the barracks and that they would

 5     guarantee their safety and security.  However, our leaders did not accept

 6     that.

 7        Q.   Specifically focusing on the question of Tintor's position, what

 8     did your relative tell you Tintor's position was?

 9        A.   Tintor commanded a paramilitary formation that, in my view,

10     consisted of about 2.000 men.  When they arrived - how should I put

11     this? - it was as if they were ants.

12        Q.   Just one final question:  Was there anything else that Tintor

13     said or did that made you believe that he was in command of the

14     paramilitary formation?

15        A.   Well, while we were sitting there, all these soldiers of his

16     addressed him as Commander Joja.  How should I put it?  Even before,

17     until Stevo Petricevic came there, he's a neighbour of mine, and he had a

18     radio transmitter on his back, as far as I can remember, it was an RUP 3,

19     a military radio.  He addressed him as Commander Joja, what do we do

20     about this, what do we do about that?  So he talked to him.

21        Q.   I want to move now to the period that you were detained at the

22     cistern in Rajlovac.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up 65 ter 01428, please?

24        Q.   Now, Witness, you're about to be shown a photograph.  I'd be

25     grateful if you could tell the Court what the photograph depicts.

Page 12068

 1        A.   This depicts the compound where the company was, the fuel

 2     company.  There are two cisterns there, in which we were held prisoner.

 3     The smaller one was a petrol cistern and there were about 90 prisoners

 4     there, and the bigger one had been used for diesel fuel, and other

 5     prisoners were held there.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Thank you, Witness.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask that that be admitted.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 130.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  That can be a public exhibit, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be Exhibit P2311.

11             MR. GAYNOR:

12        Q.   Which of the two cisterns were you detained in, the smaller one

13     or the bigger one?

14        A.   I was in the smaller one.

15        Q.   Now, how many nights did you spend in that cistern, do you

16     recall?

17        A.   13 nights.

18        Q.   Could you describe the surface of the cistern?  By which I mean

19     the ground, essentially, of the cistern.

20        A.   As for this cistern, they made a door there, like two by two

21     metres, and then they put a reinforced door there.  There was a chain and

22     a padlock on the door.  However, as they cut that opening for the door,

23     there was this 15-centimetre edge that they could not cut through, so

24     that was there by way of support.  And that is where water accumulated

25     because it rained, and in -- therefore in the cistern itself, there was

Page 12069

 1     always about 15 centimetres of water.  In 1985, this has been -- this had

 2     been abandoned, this entire terminal --

 3        Q.   Let me -- let me interrupt you, Witness, please.

 4        A.   -- however, you could still feel the smell of fuel, I mean the

 5     odour, bad odour.

 6        Q.   How were you able to sleep in the cistern if there was

 7     15 centimetres of water on the ground?

 8        A.   We didn't sleep at all.  Whoever managed to tried to lean against

 9     the metal wall.  Some people would even fall asleep and then fall into

10     that water.  That's the way it was, roughly.  We were crowded into half

11     of that cistern.

12        Q.   I'd like to take you to a person called Hajro Delic.  He was

13     detained with you in the cistern; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you describe briefly what happened to him?

16        A.   Well, as for Hajro Delic, a day after we were brought there, he

17     and his son and their neighbour had been captured.  They told us about

18     those details, how they had been captured.  However, some two days later,

19     Nikola Stanisic came with Sok and the members of his special unit, and

20     quite simply, they said that they needed to interrogate him about

21     something.  They took him away that day and returned him only the next

22     morning.  He was all black and blue.  He had been beaten that badly.  His

23     tongue was swollen as if it were a ball.  He could barely say anything.

24     I knew him from before and his son was there as well.  We tried to hold

25     him and he just managed to say that Nikola Stanisic had asked him for one

Page 12070

 1     million marks in order to release him, and then he and these members of

 2     the special unit beat him up.  As far as I can remember, they had been

 3     involved in conflicts even before the war.

 4        Q.   Did he survive his injuries?

 5        A.   This is what I wish to say:  Just as he said that to me, a woman

 6     walked into the cistern, she wore a white coat, and she examined him, and

 7     she established at that point in time -- I mean, I noticed that he took a

 8     deep sigh and he died.  She examined him and gave him some kind of an

 9     injection and realised that he was dead, established death.

10        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I'm afraid I'm going to have to press on.

11     Could you describe very briefly what happened to Enver Celik?

12        A.   Well, I don't know exactly which date it was, but this Sok,

13     Mile Stojanovic, these four members of the special unit, they had wooden

14     sticks, and there was this short man who came with them, as if he were a

15     child, and allegedly he pointed out Enver Celik and said that he had

16     mistreated his sister.  They took him out and took him behind the

17     cistern.  However, the cistern nearby was in such a position that those

18     other prisoners could see what had happened.  They hanged him on this

19     construction where cisterns were filled with fuel.  So they saw him

20     hanging by the arms from that construction, they hit him twice with

21     metal bars, and they broke his backbone in that way, so he never moved

22     afterwards.

23        Q.   Witness, in your statement, this is at paragraph 44, you state

24     that on or around the 10th of June, Zuti came to your container and

25     called ten people out.  And you go on to say that you --

Page 12071

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   They had never been heard of or seen again.  Do you have any

 3     information as to what became of those ten men?

 4        A.   These men were allegedly taken out for an exchange.  As far as I

 5     can remember, it was stated that they were taking them to Ilidza.

 6     However, as far as I can remember, I never heard of them again.  I mean,

 7     I heard that they had been killed and some of them were found at Vlakovo,

 8     in the city cemetery.

 9        Q.   I want to move now to the incident involving the bus.  You state

10     in your statement that -- this is at paragraph 50 -- that Serbian police

11     Special Forces arrived armed to the teeth and ordered you to step out in

12     single file and to board the bus.  What was it that made you believe that

13     they were Serbian police Special Forces?

14        A.   When they came there to the cistern, they stood there in a line

15     of three or four metres.  They had black masks on their faces, black and

16     white camouflage uniforms, with those anti-terrorist automatic weapons

17     and ordinary automatic weapons.  They had grenades around their waists.

18     I mean, like real guerrillas.  Then they ordered us to leave the cistern,

19     one by one, with our hands on our heads.  We were supposed to run to the

20     bus.  And after we board the bus, we were supposed to lie on the floor,

21     one upon the other, for our own safety, and then we would be taken for an

22     exchange to Kobilja Glava.

23        Q.   I want to move on.  You said that the driver of the bus was Zuti,

24     who had been a driver for Tintor.  How do you know that he had been a

25     driver for Tintor?

Page 12072

 1        A.   Yes.  When he came to the cistern to get those ten other people

 2     that he previously took away for an exchange, allegedly, my neighbour

 3     Alija Gacanovic was in the cistern too and he used to know him, and he

 4     said that he was a member of the Special Forces of Vikic's army, who left

 5     after the war started.  So I heard that from him.  And I saw him then as

 6     well, when that van took them and I saw him at the steering wheel on --

 7     in the bus.

 8        Q.   Now, Witness, very briefly, you said that the bus was accompanied

 9     by four cars.  Could you describe, very briefly, who you believe were in

10     those four vehicles?

11        A.   In those vehicles -- well, they were escorting those who had come

12     to get us.  I mean they were the ones who brought these vehicles in the

13     first place and the bus too.

14        Q.   Who was in the vehicles?

15        A.   These Special Forces members.

16        Q.   Witness --

17        A.   The ones that I could not see.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just one intervention, the

19     transcript does not reflect that the witness also said "probably."

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Could you clarify that as well?

21     I wonder whether the witness has answered your previous question, what it

22     was that made him believe that they were Serbian police Special Forces.

23     Did he mean the police from Republic of Serbia?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I'll clarify that, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 12073

 1             MR. GAYNOR:

 2        Q.   First of all, in your immediately previous question, Witness --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- you said -- I asked you who were in the vehicles.  Did you say

 5     that they were Special Forces members or probably Special Forces members?

 6        A.   Well, judging by the way they were dressed, I considered them to

 7     be Special Forces members, a Special Forces unit.

 8        Q.   Now, my next question is, in the English language, the term

 9     "Serbian police Special Forces" is somewhat ambiguous.  Could you clarify

10     whether you meant they were from Serbia or whether you meant they were

11     Serbs from Bosnia?

12        A.   Well, I cannot say where they were from, but I know for sure that

13     they were not ordinary soldiers.  I mean, it's like in the movies, when

14     you see those anti-terrorist forces.  That's what they looked like, with

15     those socks over their faces.

16        Q.   Very well.  I'll continue.  Witness, I want to take you now to

17     the moment when Zuti got off the bus to put some water into the cooler of

18     the engine.  Could you just describe, and keep it fairly short, what you

19     were able to see or hear just when he -- when you -- when he decided to

20     get off the bus?

21        A.   When we came to this place that was called Sokolina, I heard the

22     driver, because on the bus there were two men who were escorts, guards,

23     who asked him why he stopped.  He said that the engine was boiling and

24     that he had to add some water into the cooler.  What I heard was the

25     stream, the brook, nearby, when the bus stopped.

Page 12074

 1        Q.   Now, could you describe the nature of the weapons used?  In your

 2     statement you state that small arms, hand-held rocket launchers and

 3     zoljas were being fired.  How were you able to tell that?

 4        A.   Now I'm going to tell you all about this but I'm not going to

 5     take too long.  When they got off the bus, for about 10 or 15 seconds --

 6     or, rather, after 10 or 15 seconds, a strong detonation was heard from

 7     the front and then gunfire started from small arms, and there were also

 8     two stronger detonations.  Then hand grenades were going off underneath

 9     the bus.  This went on for about 15 minutes.  Later on, it went quiet.

10     I heard vehicles that were turned on afar, I heard wailing.  I was being

11     sensible, and I said, "Try to keep quiet because if they hear that anyone

12     survived, they are going to kill everyone."  However, nothing could be

13     heard after that.  Vehicles approached the front of the bus.  One man got

14     out of a vehicle and said to this person in the other vehicle, and I

15     heard it, he said, "Board the bus and see whether there is anyone who

16     survived."  And this other one swore at him, he was using swear words in

17     relation to God and the church and he said that he could board the bus

18     himself and check if he wanted to.  And then these vehicles went back to

19     the -- in the direction of Srednja.

20             I mean, I was underneath the dead and I was drinking the blood of

21     my relatives and neighbours.  I was on the floor.  My face and mouth were

22     on the floor but there was that much blood.  It was unbearable.

23     I managed to get out with a neighbour and two more relatives and we managed

24     to get two other men out as well into the nearby forest, about 50 metres

25     away.  They died on the spot.  So we continued through the forest.

Page 12075

 1             Let me try to explain something.  Before the war, I was a

 2     mountaineer, so I could recognise different places.  I could realise

 3     whether there would be any settlements nearby.  I could also read

 4     markings on trees, and luckily, I managed to get to Vukasevici, a Muslim

 5     village, where I was received by the then Territorial Defence, headed by

 6     Dzafer Heric, who immediately organised two tractors and went to take the

 7     massacred persons out.

 8        Q.   Okay, Witness --

 9        A.   He found some zolja and Osa ammunition and some machine-gun

10     ammunition belts, and then the commander of the Chetnik guard in Srednja

11     arrived with his Chetniks and they tried to hush things up.  However,

12     Dzafer said to Dragan Ikanovic, Dragan, there are witnesses who are still

13     alive.  He said to Dzafer Heric that he did not see anything, that he is

14     not going into that, that this what is Boro Radic did and Ratko Hadzic.

15     And that's what Dzafer Heric conveyed to me when he came back, all of it,

16     and I saw these weapons that had been used.  And that is why I claim

17     what -- that that was used to fire.  And all of that.

18        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Now, in -- could you just specify the

19     precise number of men who were able to get off the bus after the shooting

20     incident?

21        A.   Six of us got out.  Two of them died immediately after they were

22     out, and the rest were found by the territorials on the next day, when

23     they came to get the massacred persons out.

24        Q.   Witness, I'd now like to show you a video, so if you look at the

25     screen in front of you, we are going to play 65 ter 40159E.

Page 12076

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  We can stop it there.  We've stopped at

 3     3 minutes and 14 seconds of that clip.

 4        Q.   Witness, could you explain what you saw in that video-clip?

 5        A.   I didn't see the video-clip.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need to broadcast that video

 7     otherwise --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can see.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we play it again?

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's broadcast only that video-clip.

12             We will play the video again, Mr. Witness.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it now.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll play it again.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. GAYNOR:  We can stop the video now.  Thank you.  We stopped

17     at 3 minutes and 7 seconds.

18        Q.   Witness, can you tell the Court what you saw in that video-clip,

19     please?

20        A.   This is the bus that took us there and we were massacred there.

21     As you can see, in the rear part of the bus, you can see a pile of

22     massacred bodies, and even on the outside, you can see blood that was

23     spurting all over.

24        Q.   In your statement, this is paragraph 60, you state that Ibrahim,

25     a photographer from Vogosca, filmed a video.  Is this the video to which

Page 12077

 1     you were referring?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that as a public exhibit,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2312, Your Honours.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Finally, I'd like to play another video.  This is

 8     65 ter 40159G.  And again, if this could be broadcast so the witness can

 9     see it.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. GAYNOR:  We can stop it there please, stopped at

12     15 minutes and 2 seconds.

13        Q.   Could you tell the Court what you saw in the first part of that

14     clip, please?

15        A.   That is the place near Vukasevici village, where the local

16     residents dug a mass grave in which the massacred residents of Ahatovici

17     village were buried.  This grave is still there, only The Hague had

18     requested exhumation, and as a result, all these residents had been

19     identified for the second time and are now buried next to the mosque in

20     Ahatovici.

21        Q.   And in the second part of that video we saw human bodies.  Could

22     you tell the Court what you know about those?

23        A.   Those were the bodies of the people who were butchered in the

24     bus.  They were pulled out by members of the TO.  And with their

25     assistance, since TO was in the area, and was commanded by Dzafer Heric,

Page 12078

 1     they were brought up there to this location and buried.  They were loaded

 2     on two tractors.

 3        Q.   Now, in your answer a moment ago, where you said that residents

 4     dug a mass grave in which the massacred residents of Ahatovici village

 5     were buried, were you referring to the victims of the attack on Ahatovici

 6     or to the victims of the bus massacre?

 7        A.   I was referring to the victims of the attack on the bus.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that as a public exhibit.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember the time frame where the video-clip

10     started?  It's around 13 minutes, I remember.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, 13.26.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2313, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             MR. GAYNOR:

16        Q.   Finally, Witness, were you personally present for the burial of

17     the victims of the bus massacre?

18        A.   Alongside my relative, I was there.  The other people who were

19     seriously wounded were transported via Olovo and Kladanj to Tuzla.  They

20     were supposed to be operated but they only received first aid.  My

21     relative and I tried to help with the identification of those massacred

22     bodies.  We tried to determine that on the basis of their clothes and

23     things like that because none of them had any IDs on them because all the

24     documents were confiscated from us at the time we were taken prisoner.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.  That ends the direct

Page 12079

 1     examination.  There are no associated exhibits to be tendered.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.  We will take a break for

 3     20 minutes, and we will resume at 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Now, Mr. Witness, you will be asked further

 7     questions by Mr. Karadzic.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, witness.  First of all, I would

11     like to clarify a number of issues relating to your village, and then we

12     shall move on to this incident.  When did you start preparations for the

13     defence of your village?

14             THE ACCUSED:  I don't hear.  [Interpretation] I can't hear the

15     witness.  You have to switch on that in front of you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Could you repeat your answer,

17     Mr. Witness?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, we did not make

19     any preparations for the defence of our village.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   But didn't you state already that you had made some preparations?

22     Did you have trenches around your houses?

23        A.   Those were not preparations.  These trenches were to serve as

24     cover for people from shells.  People wanted to survive, and as for women

25     and children, we hid them in the cellars of our houses that we called

Page 12080

 1     shelters.

 2        Q.   When did you dig those trenches in your village?

 3        A.   It took place on or around the 23rd -- or, rather, between the

 4     20th and the 25th, when the Serbian forces started digging themselves in

 5     on the hills around Ahatovici.

 6        Q.   And when did you set up the Crisis Staff?

 7        A.   The so-called Crisis Staff, it wasn't actually a Crisis Staff.

 8     Those were the village elders or leaders who, at the summons from the

 9     Serbs from the barracks, who inherited this barracks after the departure

10     of the JNA, to enter negotiations.  However, the Serbian side demanded

11     surrender of all men, which was not accepted.  Those were the men who

12     were village leaders, and they were answerable to the local residents of

13     the village.

14        Q.   Thank you.  With all due respect, Mr. Witness --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, make sure that you put a pause between

16     his answer and your question.  In particular, given the fact that the

17     witness is not with us at this courtroom.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm kindly asking you that we don't make any

21     generalisations.  Let us establish the exact order of move.  Is it true

22     that Vahid Alispahic was a high-ranking official of the SDA and he was a

23     high-ranking official in the MUP?  Was he the president of your SDA

24     branch?

25        A.   Well, I knew that he was the president in town, but I don't know

Page 12081

 1     that he did anything in the village of Ahatovici.

 2        Q.   But do you know that Bakir Alispahic, Hasan Efendic, commander of

 3     the TO, and Jusuf Pusina, another high-ranking police official, came to

 4     Ahatovici often during the summer of 1991?

 5        A.   I don't know about that, but I do know, while I was captured in

 6     the camp, Mile Stojanovic, who introduced himself as the prison warden

 7     and who said that he was a captain who had been stationed in another army

 8     district, and I know that because a relative of mine, Esmar Jusufovic,

 9     who is unfortunately deceased, told me later, after the war, that they

10     used to work together.  That's how he introduced himself.  And whenever

11     he came in front of this cistern where we were locked up, he would

12     mention Bakir Alispahic, who allegedly promised exchange at Kobilja Glava

13     and the women and children at the Bozica pump, he actually said that

14     Bakir Alispahic had no people for exchange.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let us be precise.  Is it true that this Crisis Staff

16     was formed in 1991, "yes" or "no"?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Is it true that at the head of this Crisis Staff, as its

19     commander and the commander of the TO, was Hasan Mujkic?

20        A.   I don't know about that.

21        Q.   In your amalgamated statement, in paragraph 5, did you say that

22     Mujkic, Hasan Mujkic -- give me just a moment, that in March of 1992,

23     during negotiations between representatives of the SDA and SDS, it was

24     decided by the Serbs to ask the Muslims to vacate the village of

25     Ahatovici and that this was conveyed to you by Hasan Mujkic,

Page 12082

 1     representative of the village, who attended the meeting?  Is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes, but he was a representative of the residents of Ahatovici, a

 4     representative, and nothing else.  He wasn't a commander and he wasn't a

 5     military person.  I didn't know that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  41 Serbs, voters, are asking 1500 Muslims to move out

 7     of the village, is that what you're trying to say?

 8        A.   I know that they made that request, that they said that we should

 9     surrender at the barracks and that our safety would be guaranteed, and

10     that pertained to men between 15 and 70 years of age.

11        Q.   When did the war start in Sarajevo, Mr. Witness?

12        A.   Well, the war -- the media war and every other war, as far as I'm

13     concerned, started when my village was attacked.

14        Q.   Let me remind you that the war in Sarajevo started on the

15     6th of April.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  How was it possible, then, for the Serbs to ask you,

18     in March, to surrender, and 41 of them asked 1500 of you to surrender in

19     March, before the outbreak of war?

20        A.   I don't know if it was March.

21        Q.   Can Mr. Ram show you your statement because that's what it says

22     in your statement under item 5, to the effect that in March, negotiations

23     were held and that the Serbs were requesting you to leave the village.

24        A.   That's not correct.  I know that there were negotiations in May,

25     when Hasan Mujkic went there, and then he returned and told us what the

Page 12083

 1     other side wanted.

 2             JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You say, that the Serbs had erected barricades and that they

 6     checked people at those barricades and their identity cards were

 7     inspected.  When were these barricades erected?

 8        A.   Well, sometime between 20 and 25th, while they were preparing an

 9     attack on Sokolje village.

10        Q.   Which month?

11        A.   May.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But up until then, you could move freely without any

13     checks?

14        A.   Well, the barricades around Ahatovici were set up earlier, I

15     don't remember the exact date, on the bridge near Butile barracks, where

16     at present there is cattle market.  There is a bridge on the River Bosna

17     and that's where one barricade was, so in order to pass through there,

18     you had to be inspected.  It was possible to go to -- through the forest

19     to Visoko via Bioca.

20        Q.   When was this barricade erected and how long it stayed there?

21        A.   This barricade was still there when I was taken prisoner and

22     taken away to Butile.  And after that, when we were transported in a

23     military bus from Butile to Rajlovac, all these barricades were there.

24     They had to remove those iron beams in order to allow the vehicles to

25     pass.

Page 12084

 1        Q.   That was nearly two months into the war, correct?

 2        A.   Not two months.  The war that I recollect, and everything else,

 3     started on the 25th of May when Sokolje came under attack.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But up to that point, you didn't have any problems

 5     with the war?

 6        A.   No.  I didn't have any problems because I was trying to survive.

 7     I was working in Blazuj and sometime in February or March 1992, my

 8     foreman told me not to come to work anymore.

 9        Q.   Let's dwell on the barricades.  You say that people were stopped

10     there and that their IDs were checked, and that the people manning the

11     barricades had certain lists.  Does that mean that they were looking for

12     specific people and that if the people were not on the list, they were

13     let through?

14        A.   Yes.  That's correct.  While the bus was travelling between

15     Dobrosevici and Stup, it was mostly women who travelled.  Men didn't dare

16     venture out, and they would tell us what they saw on the way, after they

17     would return, and what the situation was.

18        Q.   In 65 ter 90224, this is another statement of yours, you said

19     that the Serbs were checking the people while they were going to work.

20        A.   No.  We heard that from the women upon their return from town,

21     because that is what they saw.  If there were any men on the bus, they

22     were probably Serbs.

23        Q.   Well, there were your women, Muslim women?

24        A.   Yes.  And they witnessed when people were checked, their

25     identification papers were checked.  And that's what they did at the

Page 12085

 1     barricades.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 7 of your statement, didn't you say that while you

 3     would go to work, you would come across these barricades, and the Serbs

 4     checked identity of the passengers by looking at a list and they compared

 5     the names with the names on the list?  Is that how it was?

 6        A.   No.  That's not what I said.  When I was travelling to Blazuj,

 7     already in Blazuj, near the company where I worked, they were erecting

 8     barricades and checking people's IDs.

 9        Q.   I'm going to read your paragraph 7.  Unfortunately, I have to do

10     it in English.  That's your amalgamated statement, page 3:

11             [In English] "Since I travelled to Sarajevo daily by bus, at that

12     time, due to the presence of the -- these Serbs, check-points and

13     barricades, I feared to come to work.  The Chetniks who manned these

14     check-points used to stop the buses and search them with the pretext of

15     searching for weapons.  I noticed that during these searches the Chetniks

16     checked the Muslims rather than the Serbs, who travelled in them.  They

17     always asked for our identity cards and checked them with a list of

18     Muslim names which they had.  I do not know on what basis this list was

19     prepared.  However, no one was arrested in my presence.  I have not seen

20     this list but I am aware that it was prepared in March 1992 and

21     consistent -- consisted of Muslim names whom the Serbs thought were

22     trouble-makers."

23             [Interpretation] Is this what you stated?

24        A.   All of this was happening in Blazuj, at the barricades.

25        Q.   But it says here that you travelled from Ahatovici to Sarajevo,

Page 12086

 1     in which case you don't pass through Blazuj?

 2        A.   Yes, but at the time there was no barricade on the bridge in

 3     Bojnik.  When I reached Stup and then Ilidza, and from Ilidza by bus to

 4     Blazuj, at the Mostar intersection in Blazuj there were already

 5     barricades erected and IDs were checked.

 6        Q.   But, Mr. Witness, Blazuj is not in Sarajevo.  Ahatovici is closer

 7     to Sarajevo than Blazuj; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes, I know that.  And I said where they performed these checks

 9     in Blazuj.  If I said barricades, I didn't say that there was a barricade

10     in Bojnik.

11        Q.   We'll get back to this.  It says here that you were afraid to go

12     to work any longer.  You don't say that you were sacked from your job by

13     your foreman.

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12087

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes [Microphone not activated].

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Since we don't have much time, Witness, let us clarify something.

23     You can freely say what you wish.  Any answer will do, as far as I'm

24     concerned.  Is it true that in Dobrosevici you bought and obtained

25     weapons before the war broke out?

Page 12088

 1        A.   No.  Well, some people did but I don't know about that.  People

 2     who had money and whatever, perhaps they did buy some.  I know that in

 3     Ahatovici, there was a registered hunting society, and then from

 4     Dobrosevici, Kobilja, Bioce, this was a hunting society and these people

 5     had hunting guns.  Some people even had two.  Before the war people had

 6     pistols as well.  And I'd like to point out that in Ahatovici, and in

 7     part of Dobrosevici and the surrounding area, there were some active duty

 8     policemen as well of the reserve police force.  They had had automatic

 9     weapons issued to them.  I know that.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at

12     65 ter 22187?

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   That is your statement from the 15th of April, 1993.

15             Could it please not be broadcast because of the name.

16             The second paragraph contains information that you gave, that you

17     had, about 150 small arms and that these were actually semi-automatic and

18     automatic rifles.  Is that what you said?

19        A.   I meant semi-automatic and automatic weapons that active duty

20     policemen had as well as the reserve police force.  There were only about

21     15 pieces or so.  All the rest were hunting guns.  They -- the hunters

22     also had carbines.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 17 of this

25     document?  And I'm going to read it out to you.

Page 12089

 1             JUDGE KWON:  [Microphone not activated]

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Page 17 of the document says -- so here it is.  It's the second

 4     line from the top:

 5             "To that end, we bought weapons individually, exclusively

 6     infantry weapons, that is to say, pistols, guns, all the way up to

 7     semi-automatic and automatic rifles.  With a view to better organisation

 8     and defending the village, we established a Crisis Staff and it was

 9     headed by Hasan Mujkic, son of Jakub.  We had about 150 weapons.  In

10     addition to Hasan Mujkic, on the Crisis Staff there was Mujkic Husein,

11     Mujkic Sefko, Gacanovic Cazim, Gacanovic Muhamed, Novalija Meho, Mujkic

12     Fikret, Mujkic Dzemal ..."

13             Is that true what you stated in April 1993?

14        A.   Well, look.  Again you're saying Crisis Staff.  These are village

15     leaders, the village elders.  You can call them the Crisis Staff or

16     whatever.  I told you no one could forbid the people to buy weapons and

17     whatever.  However, even if there were who knows how many weapons in the

18     village, if you look at guns, tanks, Pragas, on the other side, and then

19     there is this village in Lijeva [phoen] that is surrounded by barracks,

20     and also around Ahatovici, even if some people did buy weapons out of

21     fear, so what?  To defend their own homes, their own door step, no

22     problem with that.  As for Ahatovici, I know about 50 men were there,

23     able bodied --

24        Q.   We'll get to that.  Please.

25             JUDGE KWON:  [Microphone not activated] Let me understand the

Page 12090

 1     situation, how the witness is able to see the document.  Is he seeing the

 2     document through e-court or has he the document in front of him?

 3     Probably Court Deputy in Sarajevo can help us.

 4             THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]:  Your Honours, we have the

 5     document here, but we're not sure of the page number.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Whenever a specific document is referred to,

 7     please help him to read the document.  We are on page 17 of his

 8     statement.

 9             Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 22187, Mr. Ram, and it's

11     page 17 in this longer document.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, while it's being found, I don't call that the

14     Crisis Staff.  You were calling it the Crisis Staff.  And you say who

15     headed it.  In the next paragraph, you say that the Serb population moved

16     out, in mid-May, from Ahatovici to Butile and Reljevo.  Are you trying to

17     say that, in mid-May, the Serbs, the Serb population, went to the

18     barracks in Butile to stay there, to live there; is that right?

19        A.   They left their homes and they went down there to Bojnik, where

20     Serb areas were.

21        Q.   What about Butile, does that mean that they went to the barracks?

22        A.   I consider that to be Serb territory at the time.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Is Butile barracks of the former JNA?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In this same statement you say that you stood guard

Page 12091

 1     around the village, and then, on the 25th of May, you received an

 2     ultimatum from the former JNA and the local paramilitaries to surrender

 3     your weapons, and this was done through a loud speaker.

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.  An armoured vehicle was moving about and they

 5     used a loud speaker from the school in Dobrosevici, and they were asking

 6     for surrender.

 7        Q.   They were calling for a surrender of weapons, right?

 8        A.   Well, surrender.  Well, generally speaking.  I mean of men, too.

 9     And probably they meant weapons as well.

10        Q.   Could you please take your statement where it says that you

11     should hand over weapons.  It doesn't say that you were supposed to

12     surrender?

13        A.   This is what was said very nicely, that men should surrender,

14     whoever has weapons.

15        Q.   Could you please have a look at this paragraph on the first page

16     of your statement?  "On the 25th of May, 1992," do you see that

17     paragraph?  Page 17 of this compound document, on the first page.

18             JUDGE KWON:  It would be more convenient if you read out the

19     ERN number so that the Court Deputy can be -- can identify the proper

20     page.

21             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Does it say here that you should surrender your weapons?

25        A.   I'm going to read it out:

Page 12092

 1             "On the 20th of May, 1992, we received an ultimatum from the

 2     former JNA and local paramilitaries to surrender our weapons.  This

 3     request was issued by guards around our village."

 4        Q.   This request came over a loud speaker.  That's what it says,

 5     right?  You skipped one line.

 6        A.   "This request came over a loud speaker.  Of course, we did not

 7     agree to this, and we continued to stand guard around our village."

 8             That's right.  But they were issuing this ultimatum to us for us

 9     to surrender as well.

10        Q.   So why didn't you say that in this statement?

11        A.   Well, I cannot think of everything.

12        Q.   Then, on the 27th of May, you say you were attacked.  By what

13     kind of forces, how many soldiers were there?

14        A.   On the 27th of May, that is after the attack at Sokolje, on the

15     27th, because they did not manage to take Sokolje, they just turned their

16     weapons, because Ahatovici is to the left.  All the hills around

17     Ahatovici, Serbs were there, they dug in there with their heavy weapons,

18     and the barrels were just turned in this direction.

19             Let me just tell you one more thing.  You can see the barracks of

20     Butile and Rajlovac from my house, and the entire farm, and also the area

21     where the tanks were placed.  On the hills you saw Pragas that were dug

22     in.  It's about 100 metres away from my home as the crow flies.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Can I please ask you that we do not speak

24     in so general terms.  Let us focus on these details.  Were you attacked

25     by infantry from Dobrosevici or by artillery on the 27th of May?

Page 12093

 1        A.   On the 27th, shelling started and, from time to time, there was

 2     gunfire coming from side arms, probably to scare the population, and to

 3     show force.

 4        Q.   And then you say that you successfully repelled that attack

 5     without any losses on your side.  How could you repel an artillery

 6     attack?  Were you attacked by the infantry from Dobrosevici and you

 7     managed to repel the attack?  Look at this very same page, the next

 8     paragraph.

 9        A.   I have to explain this a bit.  I was in the lower part of the

10     village because up above Ahatovici you could hear infantry gunfire,

11     things like that.  It's possible that someone was attacking.  Perhaps the

12     guards were trying to repel the attack.

13        Q.   You say, in another paragraph, on the 20th of June, 1997 --

14     65 ter 22187, we had called it up a few moments ago.  Let's just see

15     which page we need.  You say that attacks on Ahatovici took place on the

16     27th of May from Rjecica and Rajlovac at 2300 hours, but the villagers --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The villagers responded with gunfire and repelled the attack.

20     For defence we only had about 50 small calibre weapons.

21             So how many did you have as stated?

22        A.   The entire village had between 50 and 150 weapons, as far as

23     I could tell, roughly.  And I did say that it came from the area of Do.

24     It's on the other side.  There is this small river there, this brook.

25        Q.   And you say here that you were attacked from the direction of

Page 12094

 1     Rjecica, the brook, and from the direction of Rajlovac?

 2        A.   Yes.  That was behind the part where we were, this brook, and

 3     Rjecica was behind us, where our guards stood, and that's above

 4     Ahatovici.  That place is called Do.

 5        Q.   Did you suffer any losses on the 27th of May?

 6        A.   As far as I know, there were people wounded.

 7        Q.   In your statement given on the 15th of April, 1993, you say that

 8     you repelled the attack and sustained no losses; whereas in your

 9     statement of the 20th of June, 1997, you say that two Muslims were killed

10     and about ten wounded.  So which is true?

11        A.   What is true is that they were wounded, that people were wounded.

12     As for two Muslims, I heard in the village that they had committed

13     suicide.

14        Q.   Why would they commit suicide?

15        A.   Most likely -- four women committed suicide with them, probably

16     out of fear.

17        Q.   Why is that not mentioned anywhere in your statements?

18        A.   Well, it just depends on what I remembered at what point in time.

19        Q.   Ah-hah, all right.  Let me now read parts of the statement of

20     Mujkic Edin, which is 65 ter 22184.  You don't have that part with you.

21     I will read it out to you.  He gave that statement and on page 2, and

22     over on page 3, he says:

23             "I learned later on that commander of the Territorial Defence of

24     Ahatovici, Mujkic Hasan, decided to flee before his men.  He's a former

25     policeman, and he fled together with his brother and deputy Husein and

Page 12095

 1     his uncle, Junuz.  They reached Visoko via Krstac hill."

 2             And then on page 3 it says:

 3             "I emphasise that the enemy found, in his house, lists of

 4     fighters with weapons issued to them.  It was typed on four pages.  I saw

 5     these lists in the hands of aggressor officers.  They used these lists in

 6     order to determine the status of each one of our captured soldiers.  In

 7     relation to that, they particularly tortured those fighters who had been

 8     issued with a sniper or with a mortar."

 9             So you had the names of fighters, taking the whole of four pages,

10     together with information about the weapons issued to them.  Among them

11     there were people who had snipers issued to them and mortars, sabotage

12     mortars.  Do you know about that?

13        A.   I don't.  I don't know about that.

14        Q.   Did you build two shelters, two fortified shelters in your

15     village?

16        A.   No, no shelters were built.  Those were simply houses who had

17     very strongly built basements.

18        Q.   And were they reinforced?  What did they use to reinforce them?

19        A.   No, this was just a basement area, cellar area, that was made out

20     of concrete.

21        Q.   Uh-huh.  Did you have trenches or not?  And then back in 1991,

22     did you have them?

23        A.   Not in 1991, but in 1992, in May, depending on where people lived

24     and where they had houses, people would dig out an area in order to hide

25     there, near their houses.  And I apologise but let me tell you that I had

Page 12096

 1     no weapons whatsoever, nor did I have any need to attack anyone or kill

 2     anyone.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You mention here that the barracks were just across.

 4     Was it the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army?

 5        A.   There were two barracks.  One was called Orao, which was a

 6     factory, and the other one was the Butile barracks.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that in mid-1991, there was a

 8     mobilisation of reservists of the Yugoslav People's Army due to war in

 9     Croatia?

10        A.   I know about that.  But let me tell you, I also was a reservist

11     in the barracks called Koran, at Pale.  They called me up sometime in

12     1988.  If you remember, there were exercises, manoeuvres, held of the

13     Yugoslav People's Army.  I think that the whole operation was called

14     Nevesinje 88.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  It was quite sometime

15     ago.  And then in 1990, they called me to come to Lukavica.  There was an

16     entire battalion there, mostly Muslims and Croats, who were dismissed.

17     They returned their equipment and they were sent home without being given

18     any other assignment.

19        Q.   Did you say 1988?

20        A.   Yes.  But actually during that period of time, I'm not quite

21     sure, it was a long time ago.  Perhaps you know better than I do.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise to the interpreters.  In Ahatovici, did

23     you manufacture weapons, ammunition and explosives?

24        A.   I don't know about that.

25        Q.   So there could have been something of that nature without you

Page 12097

 1     knowing about that?

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly ask you, since we do not have much

14     time, and we would rather not recall you to come back to complete your

15     testimony, let us just focus on the most important things.  You say that

16     the main attack on Ahatovici commenced on the 29th of May, that they used

17     Howitzers, 105- and 155-millimetres multiple rocket launchers, mortars,

18     tanks and similar weaponry.  How did you come to this conclusion?

19        A.   Yes.  It was an all-out attack from all directions, from both

20     barracks, from the surrounding hills, such as Tijekovac [phoen]

21     Koprivica, Paljevo.  From the entire area that had been taken by Serbs

22     around Ahatovici, they started shelling, and it lasted some three days,

23     as far as I can remember.  Everything was on fire.  My house was knocked

24     down.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I regret about your house, but let us look at this,

Page 12098

 1     Witness.  You mentioned 4.000 shells.  How did you come to conclusion

 2     that 4.000 shells had fallen?

 3        A.   I gave it as a rough figure.  There were numerous shells,

 4     innumerable shells that fell.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  How many Serb fighters, Serb soldiers, attacked you

 6     on the 29th of May?

 7        A.   Well, I can't give you the exact number but there were thousands

 8     of them.  They came from all directions.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In one place you said 1.000, in another place you

10     said 2.000.  So there could have been more than 2.000?

11        A.   Well, listen, that's my estimate.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you undertake any offensive operations prior to

13     that against surrounding Serb villages and the Butile barracks?  Did you

14     undertake any offensive operations against surrounding villages?

15        A.   No.  I personally didn't.  But some people that had weapons, most

16     likely they did return fire.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who was the leader of the Green Berets

18     and Patriotic League in your village?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Do you know that the Patriotic League and the Green Berets had

21     been established back in early 1991?

22        A.   I know that they were established, but I don't know that any of

23     them were present in Ahatovici.  I know that we received some

24     misinformation that there were about 500 members of Green Berets in

25     Ahatovici, which is simply beyond comprehension, as though it rained

Page 12099

 1     members of the Green Berets in Ahatovici.  We didn't have that many

 2     residents.

 3        Q.   Weren't there 1500 Muslim residents in Ahatovici?

 4        A.   Yes.  But many residents fled as a result of fear.  They fled to

 5     their relatives in the city and surrounding towns, Visoko, Breza and so

 6     on.

 7        Q.   Is it true that it was mostly women, children and the elderly who

 8     went to stay with relatives?

 9        A.   Also younger people left, because the parents took them with

10     them.  They didn't allow them to remain back in the village.  When the

11     attack started, people were fleeing all over, in panic.  Some managed to

12     flee via the forest.  Some came across minefields.  All kinds of things

13     happened.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can we see 1D3261?  I hope that you have that in

15     hard copy in front of you.  1D3261.  Could we see it in e-court, please?

16     Unfortunately we don't have it yet but I will read it out to you.

17             This document comes from the Ministry of the Interior of

18     Republika Srpska, and this is the bulletin of daily events number 114.

19     It says here that there were places where sniper fire was opened in

20     Dobrinja and Vrace.  And then in the second paragraph it says:

21             "Green Berets and other Muslim paramilitary formations which,

22     yesterday, on the 29th of May, 1992, attacked parts of local commune

23     Dobrosevici, villages Bjelugovici, Mihaljevici and Bojnik, were repelled

24     and pushed into the -- into the school in Dobrosevici and from the

25     village of Bioce in Ilijas municipality, and then surrounded in the

Page 12100

 1     village of Ahatovici.  The Serb army issued an ultimatum to these

 2     paramilitary groups in the village of Ahatovici to surrender by

 3     30th of May, 1992, by 1800 hours."

 4             So you attacked --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a minute.  Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I simply want to inform the Court that an English

 7     translation of this "SRNA" press release -- sorry, of this document,

 8     excuse me, is available at 65 ter 00298.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see it in the

11     e-court and we can put aside the Serb version because I've read it out.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness --

14        A.   Yes?

15        Q.   The first paragraph, before the heading "Banja Luka CSB."

16             Witness, so the Green Berets attacked the Serb parts of the local

17     commune of Dobrosevici.  They were repelled, pushed back to Dobrosevici

18     and then given an ultimatum to surrender.  It was only then that an

19     ultimatum was issued to have soldiers surrender, right?

20        A.   Mr. Karadzic, what is stated here is not true.  Just like when

21     I was in the camp in Rajlovac, when I was imprisoned in the cistern, they

22     came with a prewritten text and those people who had no visible injuries

23     were given these texts to read out while the cameraman from "SRNA" was

24     filming it, and these people had to lie in front of cameras.

25        Q.   Please, please, let us not waste time because we will need

Page 12101

 1     ten hours instead of two.

 2        A.   So this is not true.  Did you capture a single member of the

 3     Green Berets?

 4        Q.   We will get back to that.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D3262, which is where

 6     police report the events on the next day.  I hope this document has been

 7     translated too.  This is the bulletin of daily events number 115.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   It says here, constant sniper fire in the area of Grbavica, Vrace

11     and Dobrinje is what Muslim groups used to provoke and so on.  And then

12     the next paragraph, in the Serbian village of Rajlovac, local commune

13     Dobrosevici, village of Ahatovici, the Green Berets carried out an attack

14     on the Serb houses in the villages of Bojnik, Bjelugovici and

15     Mihaljevici.  The attack was repelled during the night on the

16     1st of June, 1992.  Muslim terrorists were encircled.  In the village of

17     Ahatovici they are putting up resistance, but the village is under the

18     control of the Serb army.

19             Witness, let me ask you:  In your statement given on the

20     15th of January, 1998, you said that they captured all of your civilians.

21     So were you a civilian on that day or were you a combatant?

22        A.   Which date did you mention?

23        Q.   Well, on the 1st of June, 1992, you were pushed back into

24     Ahatovici.

25        A.   This is when the village Ahatovici was captured.

Page 12102

 1        Q.   And in relation to that, you say that women and children were

 2     separated and then transported to the industrial centre.  And they

 3     arrested all of us civilians.  So were you a civilian?

 4        A.   I was.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, we have a hard copy of the English

 6     translation of this document.  I can provide the hard copy to

 7     Your Honours right now.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But I take it Mr. Karadzic has done with that

 9     document, right?  Do you need to continue with that document?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I am done with this,

11     only this part pertains to Ahatovici.  We don't need to deal with this

12     document anymore.  We can use it for some other locations.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time.  It's time to take a break.  This

14     time we'll have a break for half an hour.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you please take into

16     consideration the possibility that we might need more time?  It is well

17     known that people from Bosnia, we, who come from Bosnia, like to talk at

18     length.  I would prefer him to focus on the answers, but at any rate,

19     I would appreciate if additional time were granted to me.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We will resume at half past 12.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 12103

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, what kind of military specialty did you have in the

 2     army?

 3        A.   Technical service.  I underwent three months of training and

 4     after that I was appointed a courier.

 5        Q.   Is someone who is a courier good with maps?

 6        A.   Yeah, well, yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now discuss groups that you mentioned.  Do you

 8     call all Serbs Chetniks or were you referring to some specific groups

 9     based on their insignia and their uniforms?

10        A.   I was referring to specific groups according to their uniforms.

11        Q.   Therefore, you are not calling all the Serbs Chetniks and

12     extremists?

13        A.   No, I don't.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us now which specific groups you

15     observed and identified, what kind of uniforms they had, and what kind of

16     insignia they wore?

17        A.   They had fur hats with a cockade, with four Ss.  They had

18     bandoliers and bayonets and weapons.  Only a few of them had rifles.  The

19     majority had automatic weapons.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement when you are making reference to

21     Serbian Special Forces, did you mean those groups?

22        A.   No.  When I said Serbian Special Forces, I was referring to the

23     soldiers dressed in camouflage uniforms who had Red Berets on their

24     heads, that's what I saw.

25        Q.   You say that the Serbian Special Forces wore masks.

Page 12104

 1        A.   Yes.  Those who came to the camp where we were, allegedly to take

 2     us for exchange.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you noticed White Eagles and Arkan's

 4     men.  How did you distinguish between the two?

 5        A.   When I was taken prisoner in Bojnik, Zoran Damjanovic told me

 6     about Arkan's men.  In fact he says, "You will be taken over now by

 7     Arkan's men."  As for the White Eagles, they had white ribbons on their

 8     sleeves and around their heads.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, this man Zuti that you mention was a member

10     of Vikic's unit of Special Police, is that the same Vikic who remained as

11     the commander of the Muslim Special Police, the notorious Vikic?

12        A.   Yes, that's him.

13        Q.   Thank you.  So this person Zuti was a member of Special Forces.

14     Are you sure that such member of Special Forces would be a simple driver

15     for Mr. Tintor?

16        A.   I don't know about that.  I heard that from Alija Gacanovic, a

17     neighbour of mine who knew him, and he said this is Zuti, he's a member

18     of the former special unit of Vikic, and the driver of Joja Tintor.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement of the 30th of October -- just a

20     moment.  No, no, thank you.  I'm sorry.  You say that a woman wanted to

21     kill some people because her brother had been killed by the Muslims.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you make any mention of a student who wanted to

24     take revenge on his teacher while he was a young man?

25        A.   I don't remember that.

Page 12105

 1        Q.   Thank you.  During the fighting in Ahatovici, did you have any

 2     combatants outside Ahatovici?

 3        A.   No.  We didn't.  Those were not combatants.  Sometime in May,

 4     from the direction of Visoko, four men were brought down there who

 5     originated from Bratunac, who were actually captured in Bratunac and were

 6     imprisoned in the school, and they were exchanged in Visoko.  In order

 7     for them to be exchanged they were brought to Ahatovici and they were

 8     supposed to proceed to Sarajevo.  However, it was impossible for them to

 9     travel any further and they remained in Ahatovici.  I remember that the

10     two of them had the last name of Salkic, and another two were brought

11     with these two.  They were all active-duty soldiers of the former JNA who

12     had fled Vukovar and were brought there.  They didn't have any weapons

13     with them.  I remember the name of one of them, Ramiz Peljto.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Witness, if I tell you that we captured some

15     men several times, do you realise then that these men from Bratunac had

16     come there to fight again once they had been exchanged?

17        A.   No.  They just wanted to pass through and head for Sarajevo.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   I'm sorry, they had relatives in Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You say here, on page 4 of your statement, that

21     Nikola Stanisic used to have some personal problems with the man called

22     Sok, and that that was a good opportunity for him to settle the accounts

23     with him.

24        A.   I'm sorry, it wasn't Nikola Stanisic who had problems with Sok.

25     Sok was the commander of the unit that mistreated us.

Page 12106

 1        Q.   Yes.  You're right.  I'm sorry.  Delic Hajro, you say, told us

 2     that at the initiative of Nikola Stanisic, with whom he had some problems

 3     before, was beaten by Sok as if it was Nikola Stanisic who had ordered

 4     that?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm trying to keep up with the various statements

 7     that the accused has referred to, so if he could just -- every time he

 8     refers to a statement could he tell us which statement he's referring to,

 9     please.  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, that's the witness [as

11     interpreted] of the 15th of April, 1993, given by this witness, and on

12     page 3, at the bottom, and on page 4, it says that Hajro Delic told

13     how -- about how he had been beaten up and then he said that that was

14     done at the initiative of Nikola Stanisic with whom he had some conflicts

15     before the war.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Then on the same page, page 4, towards the bottom,

20     you said that a woman called Mladjenka asked the guards, a couple of

21     prisoners, so that she can execute them because allegedly we, the

22     Muslims, had killed her brother Mladjen in Ahatovici, and that the guards

23     removed her and drove her away?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Again, there is reference to the guards when Zuti threw tear gas

Page 12107

 1     or some other gas to the cistern, and as soon as he went away, the guards

 2     opened the cistern up and saved you?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  On page 5, you say that on the 14th of June, at

 5     around 1830, Ramiz Peljto was taken out by his former colleagues, two of

 6     his former colleagues, from the JNA, that he had abandoned, and that you

 7     had never seen or heard of him again.  Was there something between those

 8     three?

 9        A.   Well, look, as far as I know, the two who came there were dressed

10     in camouflage uniforms and they called the name of Ramiz Peljto, claiming

11     that they allegedly went to school together.  They took him behind and

12     I never saw him return.  Immediately after that, members of the Special

13     Forces came, packed us on to the buses and drove us away where they did.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know or is your village in Novi Grad

15     municipality?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that Joja Tintor was associated with

18     Vogosca municipality?

19        A.   I know that very well.  Joja Tintor and my late father were

20     friends.  My father was born in Ahatovici and my grandfather, my late

21     grandfather, being elderly people, they knew each other.  There were

22     brotherly connections among these people and I really don't know who

23     could have driven a wedge between them, and how a human being can do

24     something like that to another human being.  Now, Joja Tintor had friends

25     in Ahatovici that he used to visit.  Anyway, I would see him in passing,

Page 12108

 1     and to this day I believe that he was a nice man.  I saw him when I was

 2     taken prisoner, and he sent us in a file -- and these soldiers were

 3     taking us.  But as soon as he came, all these things that were happening

 4     stopped.  He gave us bandages to dress our wounds.  I never saw

 5     Joja Tintor again, but I know that he owned a restaurant in Vogosca.  I

 6     know where his family house is.  They used to attend burials, funerals,

 7     at the Serbian Orthodox cemetery.  For example, the funeral of Dusko from

 8     Rajlovac, we all attended the funeral.  People knew each other.  They

 9     were perhaps not nodding acquaintances that didn't need to socialise.

10        Q.   Thank you.  But during the attack you did not see Joja; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   No, I didn't.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You saw him after the attack.  Who told you that he

14     was the commander?

15        A.   That's how the soldiers addressed him, Commander Joja.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   Maybe if I add something it will help.  On the ex-JNA uniform

18     that he wore he had three stars on each epaulette.

19        Q.   And he had a five-pointed star on his cap?

20        A.   Yes, he did.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, I must tell you that the last person on this earth

22     to put the five-pointed star on his cap would be Joja Tintor.  Could that

23     have been perhaps someone else?

24        A.   No.  When we were imprisoned in the camp, this man Sok, whose

25     full name I don't know, used to wear a flag on his shirt, the Yugoslav

Page 12109

 1     flag, and also another flag on the right-hand side of his cap.

 2        Q.   If I told you that he never liked either Yugoslavia or the

 3     four-pointed star -- now, you were taken out of this detention and put on

 4     the buses on the 14th of June?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How many men were in the bus?

 7        A.   55.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And you say that you were all lying on the floor of

 9     the bus?

10        A.   In the rear of the city transport bus, if you can imagine how big

11     this space is, which is only the space for standing, we were lying face

12     down, one on top of the other, like sardines in a tin.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In how many rows, all 50 of you or whatever number

14     you said?

15        A.   Two rows.  And in between, between those rows of seats, there was

16     some more space.

17        Q.   Were you in the first row and was someone lying on you or were

18     you in the second row and was someone on the other side?

19        A.   I was in the first row.  I was the third one to get out of the

20     cistern, and I lay there by the back door of the bus, right next to the

21     stairs.

22        Q.   And how many men were lying over you?

23        A.   All of them.  There were like five men lying on me.  It was

24     crowded.

25        Q.   Five rows or five men or in two rows?  How many rows were above

Page 12110

 1     you?

 2        A.   One row, but there were five, one next to the other.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And inside, in addition to yourself, how many did you

 4     say were there, 50, 55?

 5        A.   55, 55.  Packed, no one was allowed to sit down where the chairs

 6     were.  At the entrance, this guard, who had this black mask on his face,

 7     he was hitting people in the back and he was saying, "Going to -- go into

 8     the back of the bus, lie down, face down."

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So there were two guards there in addition to the 55

10     of you packed like sardines?

11        A.   Two guards and a driver, of course, this Zuti, who I know as

12     Zuti, and who came with a van in front, and Alija Gacanovic said that he

13     was a member of the Special Forces of Dragan Vikic.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Then you went from Semizovac to Srednjevo [phoen],

15     right?

16        A.   We set out towards the gate, to the right, to Rajlovac, across

17     the railroad.  You know very well that you go right to town and to the

18     left you go to the Vogosca intersection, and from there, you go to the

19     right to Kobilja Glava and to the left to Semizovac.  And then from

20     Semizovac to the right and on the right is Ilijas.  Let me just remind

21     that you had family members in Gora, which is a village near Srednje, if

22     you know the area.

23        Q.   Yes, yes, in Gora, the predominant population is Croat, right?

24     So you took the right-hand road towards Srednjevo?

25        A.   Yes, to the right from Semizovac.

Page 12111

 1        Q.   Did you pass Srednje or did you turn before Srednje?

 2        A.   When you pass the bridge, in Srednje, we passed underneath

 3     somehow, and we turned, and that is where the barricade was, and I heard

 4     the driver ask, Where is this, what place is this?  And this man said

 5     Srednje.  And he also asked how much more to this place called Sokolina.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that along that road towards Gora and

 7     Bozic, that's where the separation line was, right, or the front line?

 8        A.   I don't know about that.  I don't know about that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Then you turned right and you came to this place

10     called Sokolina?

11        A.   Well, look, in Srednje, we turned left, and that is where this

12     conversation took place, and then we went straight ahead.  Then I felt

13     that we were on a macadam road.

14        Q.   Thank you.  But if you had turned left, you would have gone to

15     Bozici.  Straight ahead you went through Vukasevici and Visevice; right?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   Is Sokolina along the road between the villages of Visevice and

18     Vukasevici?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  Also, there is a sawmill there that was processing

20     wood, logs, from that area.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Your hearing is pretty good, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You heard a vehicle escorting you behind the bus, right?

24        A.   No.  No.  When we set out from Rajlovac, I saw two vehicles

25     straight ahead, and two vehicles behind us.  These two vehicles were

Page 12112

 1     following us.  I heard them all the way up to the barricade in Srednje.

 2     When we took this macadam road, I no longer heard them.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that Vukasevici is a Muslim village in

 4     Serb territory?

 5        A.   I don't know that they are in Serb territory, but I know that it

 6     is a Muslim village.  Next to Vukasevici is the Serb village of

 7     Drazevici.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Vukasevici, at that point in time, had a

 9     Territorial Defence which helped you, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Then at one moment, you said that you heard a big

12     explosion, right, and after that you also heard automatic gunfire, right?

13        A.   Yes, a strong detonation, explosion.  As I was lying in the back

14     part, I felt this detonation behind my back.  There were masses of

15     people.  Everybody was shaken.  Glass was shattered.  We heard wailing.

16     Well, look, that cannot happen if a bullet is fired.  It can only be a

17     100-millimetre rocket launcher or zoljas.  The Territorial Defence, when

18     they took out the massacred men and brought them to the spot and showed

19     them there, and down there, there were members of the Serb army as well,

20     headed by Dragan Ikanovic, until then they were negotiating.  You know

21     where Gajevi is, at Cevljansko Polje, where the hunting lodge is, of the

22     former president, the late president Tito.  That is where they met and

23     where they negotiated all the way up until the massacre.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So the Visevice is a Serb village, and this Dragan --

25     is Dragan actually from Visevice or Srednje?

Page 12113

 1        A.   From Visevice.

 2        Q.   Vukasevici is a Muslim village and they had reached an agreement,

 3     and I can refer to folk poetry to describe this, but it meant that no one

 4     would touch anyone.

 5        A.   That's right.  It was just this road where the massacre was

 6     committed that was separation line, as it were, from Visevice.  And then

 7     from Visevice, a road had been made -- or actually, it was made later on,

 8     from this hill, where these locals took me.  And they showed me trucks

 9     and trucks, going from Vogosca, and they were driving something, but I

10     don't know what it was.

11        Q.   When was this shown to you, Witness?

12        A.   During those days between the 16th of June and, well, further on,

13     because I stayed there with my uncle for about 11 days, for

14     rehabilitation and recovery.

15        Q.   In Vukasevici?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  How was it that you got wounded?  Did you enter the

18     bus as a wounded man?

19        A.   Yes.  My big toe on my left foot, it was grazed by a bullet and

20     also my upper leg was grazed by a bullet.  This was before the massacre.

21     However, during the massacre, my upper left arm was hurt.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And wounded as you were, you got up and left with

23     your colleagues.  Were any of them wounded?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  My neighbour, a young man who was about 15 at the

25     time, his arm and his leg were wounded, and my uncle was wounded -- I beg

Page 12114

 1     your pardon, his private parts.  And my relative was wounded with a large

 2     calibre bullet, it must have been a 7.9, in the arm, up here, sort of

 3     somehow it went length wise through his arm.  And then his leg.  And then

 4     I, with the help of my uncle, who was a pretty strong man, so we managed

 5     to help each other and also we helped those two.

 6             We were so afraid but I realised that they were alive, sort of,

 7     Rizvanovic Safet and the other colleague, and we just got them out

 8     through the window.  Oh, it was unbearable.  And it was in the nearby

 9     forest, we got them out there.  It was about 50 metres away.  And then

10     they died there in the forest because they had been so badly injured.

11             Let me just mention, Mr. Karadzic, that I had been a mountaineer,

12     a boy scout, that I did my military service in the army, that I know,

13     because there was a transmission line there, that I would reach some

14     village, and on a plateau I could hear fire.  So I didn't want to go that

15     side.  I went to the other side where it was peaceful.  The road brought

16     me, luckily for me, to these Muslim villages.

17             And let me say one more thing.  Up until then, negotiations were

18     taking place.  And let me say one more thing.  When the massacred men

19     were being buried, a Serb from the village of Drazevici came and said

20     that his wife died when she heard of this case, when these Muslims who

21     had not attacked went out there and helped him to bury his wife.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let us try to explain this.  The two men you got out

23     died soon afterwards, and you also said today that three men who remained

24     in the forest died and were later found massacred.  Does that mean --

25        A.   No, no.  No, no.  Those three hadn't died.  What I said was that

Page 12115

 1     three more men were found after the Territorial Defence arrived but they

 2     were pretending to be dead.  They didn't know who it was until they saw

 3     TO on the shoulders of these men.

 4        Q.   The Muslim TO was wearing its own insignia in Serb-held

 5     territory, right?

 6        A.   I don't know about that being Serb territory at the time.

 7        Q.   On whose territory was the bus hit?

 8        A.   Where the separation was, right in the middle of the road.

 9     That's where the bus was stopped.

10        Q.   On the separation line, right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And wounded as you were, how long did it take you to

13     get to Vukasevici, how long is the road between Sokolina and Vukasevici?

14        A.   I don't know exactly.  But, look, an area that is unknown, fear,

15     everything else, when we got out of the bus -- and let me point out one

16     more thing.  The rain that started to fall, it was all over the ground.

17     We just remained in our T-shirts and underwear, and throughout the night

18     we walked through the forest, and I managed to find some dirt path as

19     well, and I could crawl there, and I was trying to check whether land

20     mines had been planted there.  And it's only towards daybreak that

21     I reached that village.  Somehow I first tried to realise who was living

22     there, whether there were any sheep or pigs, or what kind of clothes

23     people were wearing.  So this young man who was 15 years old, we told him

24     to go towards the house and to shout, "Neighbour, help."  We said to him

25     that if everything is all right, he should get in touch with us, let us

Page 12116

 1     know that everything was all right.  If he doesn't get in touch

 2     afterwards, then we should go on running.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please try to keep the answers as short as

 4     possible so that we don't take up too much time?  So we did see that on

 5     the 16th -- or, rather, on the 15th, in the morning, this Ibrahim

 6     recorded this with a camera.  Why didn't he get closer?  Why did he stay

 7     so far away?  Was it because of the separation line?

 8        A.   No.  Look, he was up there because when Dzafer Heric, the then

 9     commander of the Territorial Defence up there, there were about 30 or

10     35 territorials, arrived.  However, when they were getting the massacred

11     people out and towards the end, Dragan Ikanovic came with his own

12     fighters and with two trucks in order to trail the bus away.  Probably to

13     cover up.  I don't know.  I can only guess.  However, three days later,

14     they came and they set the bus on fire.

15        Q.   Let us now try to keep it simple, Witness.  Serbs -- two plus

16     two Serbs, two guards and two drivers, are driving 55 prisoners on a bus.

17     Then they use an explosive device to hit their own bus and the explosion

18     is strong.  Then they fire at their own bus in order to ruin it and in

19     order to hit some Muslim inside if they are lucky, and then they leave

20     everything the way it was, and then the Muslim Territorial Defence

21     arrives.  They get the dead and wounded outside.  They record it with a

22     camera.

23             Can you explain this to me?  How is it that the Serbs found that

24     to be useful for their own purposes, to do that and to leave the bus

25     right there on the spot?

Page 12117

 1        A.   Well, look --

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  He started, yes, just a second.  Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  My objection is this.  It's quite all right for the

 5     accused to put a summary of the incident to the witness but the summary

 6     is inaccurate.  He says:  "Serbs -- two plus two Serbs, two guards and

 7     two drivers."  I mean the evidence is quite clear.  There was a bus and

 8     four vehicles escorting the bus.  There were two guards on the bus plus

 9     the driver.  That's point number 1.  Point number 2, I don't think there

10     has been any evidence so far that the Muslim Territorial Defence took the

11     wounded off the bus.  So if Mr. Karadzic is going to summarise the

12     incident, I submit that he should do so accurately.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

14             He's absolutely right, Mr. Karadzic.  Be cautious citing evidence

15     when summarising evidence and putting it to the witness.

16             Probably, Mr. Witness, having had the benefit of hearing

17     Mr. Gaynor, now you should be able to answer the question.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did you say in your statements that on the following day, on the

21     15th, the TO came from the Muslim village of Vukasevici to pull out the

22     dead and wounded?

23        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

24        Q.   Is it true, and did you state this and was it true when you

25     stated it, that in the morning, on the 15th of June, the Territorial

Page 12118

 1     Defence from the Muslim village of Vukasevici reached the bus in order to

 2     pull out the dead and the wounded?

 3        A.   Yes, they came with two tractors.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And it was then that they filmed the bus, from the

 5     hill, from an elevation?

 6        A.   Well, it wasn't the hill.  It was a road, a path, used by horses

 7     to transport logs, and there was a stable there where the horses were

 8     kept, the horses used to pull out logs from the forest.  And let me tell

 9     you something else.  When I managed to get out, when I managed to go up,

10     the territorials left immediately, and the TO men had their own scouts,

11     and their scouts followed the situation as it unfolded.

12        Q.   All right.  So we have resolved that.  The Muslim TO came to pick

13     up these people.  Did the Army of Republika Srpska join them or perhaps

14     another regular military formation headed by this Dragan, did they come

15     on the same day, did they analyse what had happened?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   All right.  Witness, I will put this to you, this hypothesis.

18     This bus was hit by some sort of an explosive.  It was either a mortar or

19     a rocket launcher, and then they started firing on it, and it was a sort

20     of an ambush and people in that ambush killed those on the bus and just

21     left them there.  Do you know exactly which unit attacked you and who did

22     this?

23        A.   I can't say.  I didn't see who fired at us.  I didn't see

24     anything.  All I know is that once they had brought in the massacred

25     people, Dzafer Heric said that Ikanovic had said that he knew nothing

Page 12119

 1     about the case and that it was the doing of Boro Radic and Ratko Hadzic.

 2        Q.   Witness --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to show everyone here

 4     65 ter 30836, please.  With all the reservations we have concerning the

 5     intercepts, let us see what is it that Momcilo Krajisnik and his brother

 6     discussed on the 15th.  I regret that you don't have the document there.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The witness is -- the Sarajevo

 8     office does not have this document.

 9             THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]:  We do not have the document,

10     Your Honour.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You don't have it, all right.  Can

12     you see what's on e-court?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I read it out?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Before putting the question, if you could tell the

16     witness the nature of this document.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Witness, I have in my hands here, in hard copy, and we also have

19     it on our screens, the intercept of a conversation which took place on

20     the 15th of June, 1992, and it is a conversation between

21     Momcilo Krajisnik and his brother Mirko Krajisnik.  Krajisnik Momcilo is

22     at Pale in the assembly, whereas Mirko Krajisnik is in Rajlovac in his

23     village of Zabrdje.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will skip the first two pages in

25     the Serbian -- rather, three pages in the Serbian version, and then we

Page 12120

 1     will go straight to page 0736, which is page 6 in this document in

 2     Serbian.

 3             Could we find the corresponding page in English, please?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And for you, sir, I will be reading this out in the drama style,

 6     theatre drama style.

 7             Mirko says:  "What is it?"

 8             Momcilo says:  "Well, running around all day."

 9             Mirko cursing devil and saying, "I heard that the Muslims who

10     were running away from Misoca killed a full bus of Serbs in Srednje,

11     Misoca was being cleansed."

12             Momcilo:  "Yeah?"

13             Mirko:  "So Muslims killed a full bus of Serbs," and then Mirko

14     says, "who were on their way to Pale as refugees.  Just a little while

15     ago, they told me that this wasn't the case but that, in fact, they took

16     these prisoners with them.  Actually an old sergeant who does exchanges

17     up there received a phone call from the city, can you hear me?"  And so

18     on.

19             And then the following page in Serbian, Krajisnik says:

20             "So they called them from the city.  Alispahic, what was his

21     name, and he said those prisoners had been killed.

22             Momcilo:  "What prisoners?"

23             Mirko:  "They took the prisoners to Pale again."

24             Momcilo:  "Uh-huh."

25             Mirko:  "And then at Srednje, they were intercepted by Muslims

Page 12121

 1     who killed all those prisoners.  Our two men were heavily wounded."

 2             Momcilo:  "They thought those were our people."

 3             Mirko:  "They thought those were our people too.

 4             Momcilo:  "Yeah."

 5             Mirko:  "And tonight they want to retaliate against all Serbs in

 6     the city and in prison."

 7             Momcilo -- or rather, Mirko says:

 8             "And allegedly, they will use their cut-throats to attack

 9     Rajlovac in groups and all kinds of things like that."

10             Do you see, Witness, that this first explosion is a completely

11     illogical attack on the bus, as a result of which two Serbs were wounded

12     too?

13        A.   I don't know about that.  I know how long they fired for, how

14     long they fired on the bus.  I know what they used to fire.  What do you

15     think, that two, three lengths of ammunition belts for machine-guns were

16     enough, the so-called Gorenje.  They fired over 1.000 bullets, and we saw

17     casings that had been brought from up there.  How did they end up being

18     there?  They didn't just fall from the sky.  Then we saw all those

19     casings of zoljas and other ammunition used from rocket launchers.  I saw

20     them as they fired at the bus.

21        Q.   Sir, I'm not challenging that.  I'm asking you only:  Was it only

22     the Serbs who had rocket launchers, bombs and zoljas, or did Muslims have

23     them too?

24        A.   I don't care who had what.  What I know is that genocide was

25     perpetrated, a massacre, a completely incomprehensible killing of people,

Page 12122

 1     helpless people.

 2             And let me just tell you that the day before, on the 13th, when

 3     women, children and men were exchanged at a petrol station, in Boric --

 4     in Bozic they then put us into refrigerated trucks and they drove us

 5     along the same road.  They only opened the door when we reached Sokolac.

 6     Some people suffocated on the trucks.  They urinated there.  They fainted

 7     there.  They drove us up there to Rogatica, and to Koran, where I used to

 8     serve as a reserve soldier of the former JNA, and then they took us back

 9     to Pale, to the old boy scout centre in front of the Panorama Hotel, and

10     I know it from my time as a boy scout.  And then they let us get off the

11     refrigerator trucks.  I met then somebody called Sasa, who used to serve

12     in the army with me.

13        Q.   Thank you.  It would be nice to hear all that if we had time but

14     let us go back to our topic.  What you described was much before the

15     event with the bus.  Now that you have mentioned the exchanged -- the

16     exchange which took place at the Bozic petrol station, let me tell you

17     what happened.  The Bozic petrol station is between Rajlovac and the

18     city, and this is where women, children and the elderly from Ahatovici

19     were exchanged -- rather, they were allowed to enter the city of

20     Sarajevo.  Was that the exchange?

21        A.   Yes, that was the exchange.  However, those of us who had been

22     kept in the smaller cistern were boarded on the refrigerator trucks, and

23     Mile Stojanovic told us that we were going to be exchanged at

24     Kobilja Glava.  However, they took us all the way to Rogatica, and then

25     again, in the evening hours, they took us back to fuel cisterns.  There

Page 12123

 1     were no longer any women, children, or the elderly there.  In my view,

 2     they did it in order to hide us, to conceal us from UNPROFOR so that

 3     UNPROFOR wouldn't find us there.

 4        Q.   All right.  So was that an exchange?  Did any Serb civilians

 5     leave Sarajevo on that occasion?  Or perhaps it wasn't an exchange, was

 6     it simply the case that the women, children and the elderly from

 7     Ahatovici were allowed to enter Sarajevo?

 8        A.   It was an exchange.

 9        Q.   And who left Sarajevo as part of that exchange?

10        A.   From Sarajevo, I have no idea.

11        Q.   Did some civilians come from the Muslim part to the Serbian part

12     of Sarajevo, or was it only the case that the Muslim women, children and

13     the elderly were allowed to enter Sarajevo?

14        A.   I don't know that either.

15        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  So we've concluded with that.  That was

16     on the 15th.  We don't know whether it was an exchange or simply women,

17     children and the elderly from Ahatovici were allowed to enter Sarajevo,

18     right?

19        A.   Yes, right.

20        Q.   Now, as for the able-bodied residents or, rather, prisoners, they

21     were transported on the following day to the place where this happened?

22        A.   Yes.  When we returned in the evening, let me tell you, the Serb

23     guards who were there, even they were surprised to see us back.  They

24     were surprised that we had been brought back.  We spent that night,

25     nobody slept during the night.  In the morning they brought some awful

Page 12124

 1     food, just salted water.  I ate bread that was all covered in mildew.

 2        Q.   I understand you, I understand you but we have to go on.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 30839, 65 ter, please?

 4     Another intercept intercepted by the Muslim state security.  Could we see

 5     it in e-court, please?  I will tell you what this is about.  This is a

 6     conversation where Camil calls Mirko Krajisnik and then they have a

 7     conversation.  So:

 8             "Hello, Mirko, Camil here," and so on.

 9             Could we see the next two pages in Serbian, please?

10             Camil says:  "Well, let me tell you," he curses a relative, and

11     he says, Well, let's see if we can find something equivalent."

12             And then Camil says:  "Edin Brajlovic seems to be here in the

13     Rajlovac barracks."

14             And then Mirko says:  "Edin Brajlovic."

15             And then Camil says:  "Yes, from Ahatovici."

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Did you know this Edin Brajlovic from Ahatovici?

18        A.   Zuti took Edin Brajlovic in the van and he was never seen again.

19     I also know Zijo Brajlovic.  It was a family there.

20        Q.   Very well.  Very well.  Thank you.

21        A.   There is a witness who is their relative and who says that

22     Edin Brajlovic was killed, and that he was found in some grave and then

23     later buried.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So we see that Camil is searching for Edin Brajlovic,

25     and then Camil says:  "Is he there at Rajlovac?"

Page 12125

 1             And then the other man says:  "No, there is nobody here."

 2             And then Camil says:  "So there is nobody there, so that means

 3     that we had a wrong piece of information."

 4             And then Mirko says:  "No, for sure, believe me."

 5             And just to tell you this conversation took place on the

 6     20th of June.

 7             And then Camil says:  "Somebody told me, somebody called me."

 8             And then Mirko says:  "No, everything -- everybody who was here

 9     was exchanged.  You know, 284."

10             Camil says:  "Yes."

11             And then Mirko says:  "I think that about 50 of them were

12     released beyond all requests or outside of all requests," and so on.

13     "The Gacanovics and the Martinovics and the rest were sent to Pale, part

14     of the people, as you know, got killed," and then they continue talking.

15             And he says:  "Parts of the people went up to the central for

16     exchange," and he says, "as a matter of fact, they are going somewhere to

17     Sokolac?"

18             So on the 20th of June, they mentioned this exchange, 284 were

19     exchanged, 50 were released to go home, then Gacanovics and Martinovics

20     are mentioned, and then Mirko says:  "You heard some of them got killed."

21     Obviously he's referring to the bus.

22             Sir, Witness, can we agree that first there was a detonation

23     which made all the glass on the bus shatter, right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you still believe that the Serbs would destroy their own bus

Page 12126

 1     if they wanted to kill somebody?  Wasn't it easier to take that person

 2     out and execute?

 3        A.   Listen, that was not a Serbian bus.  That was a city transport

 4     bus that had been confiscated by them.  It was not an army vehicle.  It

 5     was a state ownership.

 6        Q.   At the time of Republika Srpska?

 7        A.   Yes, but that was a city transport bus that had been confiscated.

 8     We were loaded onto this bus with the intention of killing us, as was

 9     done.

10        Q.   Witness, a little patience, please.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted

12     into evidence, the first and the second ones, but, of course, with all

13     the reservations that we have, and could it be marked for identification?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  I think it's fair to press Mr. Karadzic right now as

16     to whether he accepts these an authentic intercepts or not.  And if he

17     does not accept that they are authentic intercepts, on what basis is he

18     tendering them?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Having issued the decision on intercepts,

20     I think it's about time to hear the parties' argument and deal with it.

21     But before we do that, can you answer the point raised by Mr. Gaynor,

22     Mr. Karadzic, as to the authenticity of these documents you are

23     tendering?  Mr. Robinson?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  If I could just answer the

25     point with respect to intercepts.  Our position is that with respect to

Page 12127

 1     intercepts, we put the Prosecution to its proof to prove the reliability

 2     of any and all of the intercepts.  However, because the Chamber has

 3     decided to allow them to do that at the end of their case or later on in

 4     their case, we don't want to be disadvantaged by not using those

 5     intercepts that would be useful to our case, in the event that the

 6     Chamber finds that the intercept procedures were reliable and they are

 7     admitted.  So that's the basis on which we are proceeding.  So our

 8     position is that it's up to the Prosecution to establish the reliability

 9     of intercepts in general, and if they do that, then our intercepts should

10     be admitted as well as theirs.  And we still have -- reserve the issue of

11     the pre-war intercepts, which you've already ruled on.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not that you are having it both ways, you are

13     tendering them.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we are having it both ways, exactly, because

15     we are taking the position that the Prosecution has the burden of proving

16     that the intercepts are reliable and so we don't want to waive that

17     issue.  But in the event that you find them reliable, then he we also

18     will want -- we wouldn't want to be deprived of having the ability to use

19     intercepts to our advantage, so we are having it both ways in that sense,

20     but I don't see anything wrong with that.  It's not our job to prove that

21     these intercepts are reliable or unreliable.  That's the burden of the

22     Prosecution.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We will not spend too much time on this today.  So

24     what if we find those tendered by the Prosecution reliable and then you

25     did nothing about the intercept you tendered.

Page 12128

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, when we hear the testimony of the Bosnian

 2     officials who intercepted these conversations, I think that that

 3     testimony will apply to our intercepts as well.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will mark these two intercepts for

 5     identification following our practice.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits D1088 and D1089, marked for

 7     identification, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  It's time to have a break.  We will

 9     break for 15 minutes this time.  We will resume at 10 to 2.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 1.34 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, for your re-examination, five minutes would be

13     sufficient, Mr. Gaynor?

14             MR. GAYNOR:  It would indeed.  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  If you could conclude by 25 past.  If you could

16     conclude by 2.25.  You have about half an hour.

17             THE ACCUSED:  I do intend to conclude much earlier.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, I'm not going to go into any other details and minutiae.

21     On page 11, you said today that a man called Enver Celik had maltreated

22     somebody's sister and that these men took him out, hanged him and beat

23     him up for that; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is it true that you never mentioned the fact that he had been

Page 12129

 1     hanged?  How come?

 2        A.   I did mention that.  I don't know how this was not recorded.  I'm

 3     sorry, I have a document here with me compiled after the massacre, when

 4     I was doing the identification of the bodies, and it is written here,

 5     Hajro Delic and Enver Celik were murdered at the camp.

 6        Q.   Please, was it really possible for someone to do something bad in

 7     the past and then someone comes to take him out, beat him up and

 8     eventually kill him?

 9        A.   Listen, I can't tell you that.  I know that Enver Celik and the

10     late Esad Celik, his brother, and they had a third brother as well, whose

11     name I don't know, they were - how shall I put it? - they liked to enter

12     into brawls and fights.  They had tattoos.  So he recognised this man as

13     the one who abused his sister according to the tattoo that he had, and

14     these followers of his took him out because of that.  And you know how --

15     this structure for loading such big cistern that has the capacity of

16     8.000 tonnes, so they hanged him on that structure and they beat him and

17     they broke his spine.

18        Q.   So if we take all this into consideration, if it hadn't been for

19     the guards, these incidents would have happened more often; is that

20     right?

21        A.   Look, I'm not going to mention the name, but there was a guard

22     whom I knew very well.  We used to meet each other in a restaurant and

23     treat each other with drinks, so when he was on duty in the evening, he

24     would bring me bread and the packet of cigarettes.  And he would tell me,

25     Just go back there into the dark, so that no one would see this.

Page 12130

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  I would like to thank you, Mr. Witness, and

 2     allow me to express my regrets that you are on such bad terms with your

 3     neighbours and that everything happened as it did.

 4        A.   You're welcome.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.  Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, the first point relates to the village of Misoca,

 9     which was referred to in one of the intercepts that you saw.  Could you

10     clarify the ethnic makeup of the village of Misoca before the war?

11        A.   Before the war, there were only Muslims living in Ahatovici, only

12     those roads separated Dobrosevici from Ahatovici and Bioce.  So this was

13     a kind of dividing line between these villages.  The Muslims lived in

14     Ahatovici, Dobrosevici were predominantly Serb-populated, although there

15     were some Muslims and Croats as well.  Bojnik was predominantly Serb.

16     Bioce was a Muslim village, Rjecica, Rajlovac also --

17        Q.   The question was about the village of Misoca.  What was that

18     village before the war?

19        A.   Misoca was a mixed village.

20        Q.   Do you know what happened to Misoca at the start of --

21        A.   I think the Muslims were a majority.

22        Q.   And did they remain a majority throughout 1992?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I want to ask you now about the moments after the shooting

25     stopped in the bus incident.  And I want to focus, first of all, on the

Page 12131

 1     question of the escort cars.  In your statement, you said, at

 2     paragraph 52, that no cars could be heard anymore behind the bus.  And in

 3     your statement at paragraph 53, you said that after the shooting had

 4     finished, you heard the cars in your escort start and that the criminals

 5     went away from the scene of the crime.

 6             Could you clarify whether the escort cars, according to what you

 7     were able to hear, accompanied the bus to the location where shooting

 8     took place?

 9        A.   When we reached Srednje and when bus set off towards Sokolina,

10     I no longer could hear those vehicles.  However, when we arrived in

11     Sokolina, when the massacre was committed, I felt -- once the shooting

12     stopped there was the smell of gunpowder, of blood, but I felt that some

13     vehicles were being started.  People were crying because they were

14     wounded.  And I told them to be quiet because if those outside heard

15     them, they would come into the bus and kill us all.  These vehicles came

16     parallel to the bus and you know what happened later, that the one from

17     the first vehicle said, Go in and check, the other one responded in foul

18     language and didn't go, and all of them went back to Srednje from where

19     the bus had come.  Now, let me make this clear, in Srednje, when I was

20     not able to hear those vehicles, I believe that they had gone to set up

21     an ambush.

22        Q.   When you and the other survivors managed to get off the bus, were

23     the vehicles still at the location?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   I want you to focus now very much on the time when the driver

Page 12132

 1     said he had to get off the bus to put water in the cooler part of the

 2     engine.  Do you remember that specific moment?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, how much time elapsed between that moment and the start of

 5     the shooting?

 6        A.   Ten, 15 seconds.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  No further questions, Mr. President.  Thank you,

 8     Mr. Witness.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Enough for them to hide.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Witness.  That concludes your evidence.

12     On behalf of the Tribunal and this Chamber I would like to thank you for

13     your giving it notwithstanding all the difficult situations you are in.

14     Thank you.  Now you are free to go.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

16                      [Witness evidence via videolink concluded]

17             JUDGE KWON:  I think this will be it for today?

18             MR. GAYNOR:  As you wish.  We are prepared to start with the next

19     witness, as you wish, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we do that?  Then we have 25 minutes.  Let's

21     proceed.  Let's bring in the next witness.  In the meantime, I just

22     received the witness list for next week.  Is it --

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  So my question was whether it is subject to change

25     that may occur during the course of tomorrow.

Page 12133

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I think it's fair to say that it is subject to

 2     change.  If tomorrow's witness, we are talking about Dr. Zecevic,

 3     I presume, if he indicates that he wishes to testify, we are prepared to

 4     amend the appearance in order to permit that, facilitate that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  Did I hear tomorrow?  I think we are on leave

 7     tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, the initial appearance for Dr. Zecevic is

 9     scheduled to take place tomorrow afternoon.

10             THE ACCUSED:  Sorry, thank you, it doesn't concern me.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly take the solemn declaration,

15     please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  RAMIZ MUJKIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please make yourself comfortable.  Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Examination by Mr. Gaynor:

23        Q.   Witness, could you state your full name, please?

24        A.   My name is Ramiz Mujkic.

25        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, did you previously testify in the trial of

Page 12134

 1     Momcilo Krajisnik and have you previously provided information to the

 2     Office of the Prosecutor?

 3        A.   Yes, I did, in 2004 I testified here.

 4        Q.   Did you, with the assistance of an interpreter, review an

 5     amalgamated statement which contains relevant portions of your previous

 6     testimony and other information you've provided?

 7        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I ask for 65 ter 90219, please?

 9        Q.   Do you see on the screen in front of you an electronic copy of

10     the first page of your amalgamated statement?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we move to page 6 of this statement?  I'd like

13     to direct everyone's attention to paragraph 27.

14        Q.   Witness, I understand that paragraph 27, I'll summarise it

15     briefly for you, it states that you've been shown a page of a document

16     which states that:

17             "Tesanovic sought the approval of the president, on 30th of May,

18     1992, in order to commence shelling at 1800 hours.  This is consistent

19     with and must be a reference to the shelling of Ahatovici on 30th May

20     1992."

21             That ends the reading of that paragraph.  Is it correct that you

22     wish to remove that paragraph from your statement?

23        A.   I asked for that because it's not truthful.  The shelling started

24     on the 29th, so I don't see any reason for him to ask for the shelling to

25     commence on the 30th.

Page 12135

 1        Q.   Subject to the deletion of that paragraph from your statement, do

 2     you adopt that statement as your evidence, and if questioned today about

 3     the same subjects, would you provide the same information to the

 4     Trial Chamber?

 5        A.   After having made the declaration that I would speak the truth

 6     and nothing but the truth, I would like this to be removed because this

 7     is not the truth.  The truth is that the shelling started on the 29th and

 8     lasted the whole day on the 30th.  So there was no agreement and there

 9     was no ultimatum possible at that time.

10        Q.   Subject to that correction, Mr. Mujkic, do you adopt this

11     amalgamated statement as your evidence in this trial?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A little intervention.  The witness

14     said that the shelling lasted for 24 hours and it's not been recorded in

15     the transcript.

16             MR. GAYNOR:

17        Q.   Mr. Mujkic did you say that the shelling of Ahatovici lasted for

18     24 hours?

19        A.   Yes, I did.  And that's true because the tanks fired during the

20     night, the upper part of Ahatovici close to the forest, and then from

21     4.00 a.m. until 10.00 p.m., mortars were firing at houses.  So there were

22     several of them and each of them had their own area.

23        Q.   Very well.  We will come to that in a moment.  I just want to

24     complete one formality, that you do adopt this statement as your

25     evidence; is that right?

Page 12136

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2314, Your Honours.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll now read a summary for the public of the

 6     statement which has been admitted.

 7             Mr. Mujkic was a resident of Ahatovici prior to the conflict.

 8     Its population was primarily Muslim.  A Serb check-point was established

 9     near the village and Muslims were not allowed to pass.  Its establishment

10     is reflected in an order issued by the Rajlovac municipality Crisis

11     Staff.

12             Several of the Muslims in the village were lightly armed.

13             On 9th of May, 1992, the Muslim village of Sokolje was

14     intensively shelled.  Ahatovici was also shelled from 29th of May to

15     2nd of June, 1992.  Communication lines were cut.  The shelling was

16     followed by a Serb infantry attack.  Mr. Mujkic, who was armed, left

17     Ahatovici on the 31st of May, 1992.

18             He encountered Serb soldiers coming from the Muslim village of

19     Gornja Bioce, which was deserted.  On 3rd of June, 1992, Mr. Mujkic

20     returned to Ahatovici.  It was also deserted.  The Muslim houses in the

21     village had been burnt and the mosque had been destroyed.  An excavator

22     was digging holes and soldiers were throwing bodies into a hole.

23             Four years later, in 1996, bodies were exhumed from

24     three locations in Ahatovici.  One location contained the remains of

25     four women, including Mr. Mujkic's sister and her daughter.  Mr. Mujkic

Page 12137

 1     later learned that the surviving Muslim population of Ahatovici had been

 2     transported to and detained in three locations next to Rajlovac barracks.

 3     The military-aged men were detained in two fuel cisterns.

 4             Mr. Mujkic hid in the forest for two months until his capture by

 5     Serb soldiers on 6th of August, 1992.  He was transported in a military

 6     truck and detained in Rajlovac barracks, where he was interrogated and

 7     beaten.  One of his interrogators placed a grenade in his mouth and hit

 8     his chin, breaking his jaw.  On 9th of August, 1992, Mr. Mujkic was

 9     transported to a hospital and was later transferred by Serb military

10     police to Planjo's house, a detention facility in Vogosca municipality.

11             Mr. Mujkic comments on several records of the Serb Municipality

12     of Vogosca.  One records Mr. Mujkic's arrival at Planjo's house.  Another

13     is a record of the rental of Planjo's house for its use as a prison.  The

14     third is a list of 143 men detained at Planjo's house.

15             Mr. Mujkic says detainees at Planjo's house were Muslim and one

16     was Croat.  They were routinely subjected to grossly humiliating

17     treatment.  One male Muslim detainee was ordered to eat cigarette ends

18     and then to perform oral sex on another male detainee in the view of the

19     other detainees.  In another instance, a detainee was asked if he could

20     swim and was then ordered to strip naked and to dive head first from a

21     balcony of the building onto the ground beneath.

22             Mr. Mujkic's brother-in-law and his nephew were among the Muslim

23     men from Ahatovici detained in a cistern next to Rajlovac barracks.

24             Both men were killed on around 14th June 1992, when a group of

25     Muslim men were taken from the cistern, placed on a bus which was driven

Page 12138

 1     to a location where the bus was fired upon.  13 members of the Mujkic

 2     family were killed in the incident.

 3             Mr. Mujkic states that prior to the conflict, the area around his

 4     village was inhabited by over 1.000 Muslims.  A document issued by the

 5     Serb red cross in October 1993 states that by that time, there were no

 6     Muslims in Rajlovac municipality.

 7             That ends the summary.  I will begin the examination-in-chief.

 8     I'm not sure I'll finish it.

 9        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, what municipality was Ahatovici in?

10        A.   In the municipality of Novi Grad, in Sarajevo.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to call up now, please, 65 ter 01660.  This

12     is a decree on the promulgation of the Law on the Establishment of

13     Rajlovac Municipality with headquarters in Rajlovac.  This record is

14     taken from the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska and reflects a

15     decision signed on the 15th of May, 1992.  And the decision was signed by

16     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

17        Q.   We see, Mr. Mujkic, under Article 1 of this law -- would you

18     just -- you see that it says that Rajlovac municipality consists of the

19     territory of Novi Grad municipality?  Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Now, in Article 2, we see a number of settlements are named.

22     Could you just look at the names of the settlements in that article?

23        A.   Can it be zoomed in a bit?  The Sarajevo Rajlovac municipality

24     encompasses the following areas:  Bojnik, Dobrosevici, Ahatovici,

25     Crkotina, excuse me.

Page 12139

 1        Q.   Mr. Mujkic --

 2        A.   Okay.  I know all of that geographically speaking.  I live there.

 3     I know all of that.

 4        Q.   Now, the -- your town of Ahatovici was primarily what ethnic

 5     group?

 6        A.   Well, according to the census in 1991, there were 1.130 Muslims,

 7     920 Serbs, in the territory of the local commune of Dobrosevici.  I state

 8     that clearly.  And that included Ahatovici, Dobrosevici, Mihajlevici, and

 9     Bojnik.

10        Q.   Now, looking at the areas named in Article 2, outside your local

11     commune of Dobrosevici, were there other settlements named in that

12     Article which contained Muslim populations?

13        A.   In Zeljevo there were about ten Muslim houses.  In Rjecica none

14     whatsoever because that was a Serb settlement.  Then Perivoje is also

15     Serb populated.  Although that is the municipality of Vogosca, not Novi

16     Grad.  That is also where the oldest Serb cemetery is in that area.

17        Q.   Do you see any other settlements where Muslims lived in this list

18     of names?

19        A.   Here, no.  Well, there is Bacici up there but that never belonged

20     to Serb territory, or, rather, it wasn't taken.  And this part,

21     Brijesce Brda and Bacici, Halilovici also, that never fell into Serb

22     hands and there are quite a few Muslims there.

23        Q.   My question is:  Prior to the conflict, in the areas that you've

24     just named, there were significant Muslim populations there, is that --

25     is that correct?

Page 12140

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that for admission, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2315, Your Honours.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:

 6        Q.   Now, I want to turn to the mosque.  Did you attend the mosque in

 7     Ahatovici prior to the conflict?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   In your statement, you say that the mosque was "our symbol and

10     our fulcrum."  Those are the words you used.  Could you explain what you

11     meant by that?

12        A.   Well, the mosque had all the legal documents that were needed in

13     the former Yugoslavia, and it was built in the 1960s.  So it was a

14     centre.  Actually it was a symbol of the Islamic faith, of course.

15        Q.   What role did the mosque play during religious holidays, for

16     example?

17        A.   Well, during Ramadan, religious rites were performed there,

18     prayers were held.  It wasn't used on every day, except for Friday and

19     the month of Ramadan and then the holiday of Ramadan.  So there weren't

20     prayers every day.

21        Q.   I want to skip on now, due to time, I'm going to have to move to

22     another part of your evidence and I want to move to your arrest, when you

23     were arrested and taken to Rajlovac barracks.  Was that after your leg

24     had been injured?

25        A.   Yes.  I was wounded on the 6th of August in my right leg.  I was

Page 12141

 1     taken there on a stretcher, put on a truck and brought to Rajlovac

 2     barracks.

 3        Q.   Upon arrival at Rajlovac barracks, did you receive medical

 4     treatment for your leg?

 5        A.   Your Honours, no one got close to my wound.  As a matter of fact,

 6     they broke my teeth there and my jaw.

 7        Q.   Now, I want to move to the very early morning of the

 8     7th of August, 1992.  Do you recall that?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I survived all of that and I'm going to remember it

10     for as long as I live.

11        Q.   So in the early morning of the 7th of August, 1992, your leg was

12     broken and your jaw was broken.  Is that a correct understanding?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You were visited in the very early morning of that day while you

15     were in detention; is that right?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  A Major Vladislav Apostolski arrived, he was

17     commander of the Rajlovac brigade and the military police, and three men

18     followed behind him.  He said to me, "We want to ask you something."

19     I recognised this man, it was Nikola Poplasen, because I saw him at

20     different meetings, as I followed political developments.  He was among

21     the top leadership of the SDS party so we saw him on TV all the time.

22     The other man was Mirko Krajisnik, who I knew personally.  And the third

23     man wore a uniform and he had a well-groomed beard.  I would recognise

24     him now, but he did not introduce himself.  He didn't say a word.

25        Q.   How long had you known Mirko Krajisnik at this stage?

Page 12142

 1        A.   I knew Mirko Krajisnik for quite a while, but the last time we

 2     sat next to one another was at the funeral of one of his relatives

 3     towards the end of April 1991.

 4        Q.   Now, could you describe the nature of the interrogation that took

 5     place?

 6        A.   Nikola Poplasen put a question to me, where is Hasan Mujkic,

 7     where is Husein Mujkic and where is Elvir Mujkic.  Hasan Mujkic was a

 8     policeman before the war and he was commander of the TO of Ahatovici, the

 9     Territorial Defence of Ahatovici.  His brother Husein was also on the

10     Crisis Staff.  And my son, who was 20 years old, had fled from the JNA.

11     They knew about that.  And they probably would have skinned him alive in

12     front of me.  They were looking for the three of them.

13        Q.   You weren't able to speak during the interrogation; is that

14     right?

15        A.   I was covered with blood.  My broken jaw was covered with blood.

16     And I said that I couldn't speak.  Then Poplasen said, "Oh, he's a

17     literate one, I can see that.  Give him a pen and paper.  Have him write

18     all of this up and send it to me."  After they had left and that was it,

19     and then Apostolski brought me a pen and paper and said, "Write.  You

20     heard what the vojvoda said."

21        Q.   Mirko Krajisnik was present with Poplasen during that period, was

22     he?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  But he didn't say anything either.  Probably according

24     to this hierarchy, excuse me, this Chetnik hierarchy, Nikola Poplasen was

25     the top man.

Page 12143

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  I can stop there if you want, Mr. President.  I see

 2     we are just about at 2.30.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Witness, we'll -- we have to adjourn for today

 4     or for this week.  And next week we start on Tuesday?

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  In the afternoon.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  And we remain available, should Dr. Zecevic

 8     decide to testify, we are available to deal with that as Your Honours

 9     wish.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we probably would not be

11     available to hear his testimony on Monday, given the need for our expert

12     to come and consult.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let me see.  We are supposed to sit on Monday -- no,

14     we are not supposed to sit on Monday.  There is no sitting on Monday.

15     Unless other things take place, we will resume our hearing your evidence

16     on Tuesday, 2.15.  Have a nice weekend.

17             Mr. Tieger, yes?

18             MR. TIEGER:  Just one possible matter to enhance flexibility, if

19     there is any possibility of the Defence remaining in contact with their

20     expert, and ensuring to the maximum extent possible that should events

21     transpire, so that we know somewhat in advance of what is now an

22     unexpected hearing date, that her absence won't delay that and she

23     attempts remain available to the maximum extent possible.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  We'll do our best, Mr. President.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is now adjourned.

Page 12144

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.31 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

 3                           February 2011, at 2.15 p.m.