Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12391

 1                           Friday, 25 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7             Good afternoon, Mr. Mujkic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

 9                           WITNESS:  RAMIZ MUJKIC [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Karadzic, are you ready to begin your

12     cross-examination?  Yes, let's start.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Good afternoon, Your Excellencies.  Good afternoon to everyone.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Mujkic.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, I will try to put, as simple as possible, my

20     questions.  And whenever it suits you, you can answer with a yes or a no,

21     because we don't have too much time.

22             Is it correct that in March 1996, you gave a statement to the AID

23     in Sarajevo?

24        A.   I provided a statement at the police in the Novi Grad

25     municipality.  I don't know whether that was the AID or someone else.  I

Page 12392

 1     didn't ask.  I wasn't really interested.

 2        Q.   So this was four years after the events; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And in the statement, did you describe in detail the events from

 5     May and June, and then from August, that pertained to the

 6     Rajlovac Barracks?

 7        A.   No, I didn't mention the Rajlovac Barracks because I didn't know

 8     the purpose of their being there.  So I really didn't want to give an

 9     incomplete statement.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's refresh your memory a

11     little bit.

12             So let's look at 65 ter 22188 in the e-court, please.

13             Can we look at the first page, please, so Mr. Mujkic can identify

14     the document.  And then we will go to the seventh page in the Serbian the

15     ninth page in the English.  This is the e-court pages or pages 18 --

16     pages 19 and 22 in the document, itself.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this your statement from --

18     actually, this is a Rule 92 bis bundle which contains the statement.

19             Can we look at page 19 in the e-court from this bundle of

20     documents, and that will be page 22 in the English.  Page 22 in the

21     English in the e-court.  We also need to look at the page in the Serbian.

22     In the English, it's in the middle somewhere, where it says "Apostolski"

23     and "Karadzic."  My name is there.

24             Can we have the Serbian version.  Actually, would you please

25     leave the English version on the screen, even though Mr. Mujkic would

Page 12393

 1     need to look at the Serbian version.  And can we look at the English on

 2     the other half of the screen now, please.  It's 22 in the English

 3     version.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can I ask you to look at the bottom third of the page, where we

 6     see that it says:

 7             "In the morning, Mile Tintor came in, son of Mirko ..."

 8             And so on and so forth.  Can you look at that.  Here, it's

 9     somewhere in the middle.  It's on the bottom half of the page:

10             "In the morning ..."

11             Yes, this is in the English.

12             Can you please look at this paragraph:

13             "I used to see him in Ahatovici, how he was, and so that he was

14     looting the stolen property."

15             Is this a description of the visit of these people to you while

16     you were captured, while you were a prisoner, a prisoner at the Rajlovac

17     Barracks?

18        A.   Are you asking me?

19        Q.   Yes, yes.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  After that, in June 1997, you gave a statement to the

22     Prosecutor's Office of this Tribunal; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now look at your

25     description of this event in the statement.

Page 12394

 1             Can we look at 65 ter 22188.  I think it's the same document, but

 2     we just need to look at the 10th page in the Serbian and the 11th in the

 3     English in the e-court.  Same document, page 10 in the Serbian, page 11

 4     in the English.  Page 10 in the Serbian, page 11 in the English.  The

 5     following page in the English, please.

 6             This is the sixth paragraph from the top or the third from the

 7     bottom:

 8             "While I was ..."

 9             No, no, this is in the hospital.  We're talking about Rajlovac:

10             "While I was in Rajlovac on the 7th of August, 1992, I was

11     visited by Goran Lemez and Major Vlasto Apostolski.  I asked Goran for a

12     cigarette.  The major told me, 'His name is not Goran; he is a vojvoda, a

13     duke.'

14             "Goran had a lot of paper regarding other prisoners."

15        Q.   And then you describe Huso Gacanovic and Asim Novalija were

16     brought to Rajlovac, and so on and so forth.

17             Is this a correct description?  Did you provide that statement?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And then you say that he was a member of the SDS; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   To whom are you referring?

22        Q.   To this vojvoda.

23        A.   Goran Lemez?  Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know that the SDS did not have any titles, it didn't give

25     anybody a title, nor did it tolerate anybody having any kinds of titles?

Page 12395

 1        A.   Your Honours, I know exactly who said what.  I didn't know about

 2     the titles, but this is how they introduced themselves.

 3     Vlasto Apostolski would always say, This person is a "vojvoda."  For

 4     another person, he said he was a "nadvojvoda," an archduke.  I don't know

 5     how they issued these titles or what they did.

 6        Q.   All right, we will find out later.  In this passage, you describe

 7     that these two persons also visited you in the Rajlovac Barracks on the

 8     7th of August 1992?

 9        A.   But this was during the day.

10        Q.   Then you gave another statement on the 24th of March, 1998,

11     where, for the third time, you described your stay at the Rajlovac

12     Barracks; is that correct?

13        A.   I don't remember the dates anymore, what statement I provided,

14     when.  What does it say in the statement?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, let's refresh your

16     memory.

17             Can we look at 1D3269, please.  1D3269, 3269.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

19        Q.   Allow me to read this for you.  Everybody can follow.  We can

20     look at the first paragraph, the first two or three sentences:

21             "After my wounding and capture on the 6th of April, 1992, I know

22     that: that on the 6th of August, 1992, in the late evening hours,

23     Goran Lemez came to my cell at the Rajlovac Barracks, together with the

24     Rajlovac Brigade police commander, Vlasto Apostolovski, and asked me to

25     give a statement."

Page 12396

 1             Is that correct?

 2        A.   He was the second person who entered my cell.  The first one was

 3     Mile Stojanovic, but Goran came to me on the 7th as well.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Later, we will tender

 5     this when we finish with the document.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   After this statement to the OTP, you gave an additional statement

 8     on the 8th of April, 2009; is that -- 2000; is that correct?

 9        A.   I don't remember the exact date, because I was at the Tribunal in

10     Nedzarici, I provided a statement there on two occasions.  In 2004, I

11     gave a statement.  I really cannot remember the dates, when I gave which

12     statement.

13        Q.   All right.  This is your statement that we're looking at on the

14     screen right now; is that correct?

15        A.   I don't see that it's signed with my signature.

16        Q.   This is page 1.  Did you give a statement like this?

17        A.   Well, it's very difficult to read.  I cannot read it, and there

18     is no signature.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  We received this from

20     the OTP as your statement.

21             Can we now look at 1D --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we show him the next page, the next page

23     and on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can, but we're just wasting

25     time.

Page 12397

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No, in B/C/S.

 2             Just a second.  No, this is not the -- second page.  That's the

 3     last page.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is this your handwriting?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And was it your signature you saw at page 4?  Show

 8     him the last page, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see the signature here.  I

12     didn't see my signature in the earlier pages, and the place for the

13     signature was blank.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And is this your statement that was retyped, and you actually

16     signed your handwritten; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, this is my signature in my handwriting.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we now have 1D3268, please.  This is an additional

20     supplemental statement that you gave on the 28th of April, 2000.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is this your signature at the bottom?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   All right.  Let's look at this second paragraph.  Can we look at

25     that:

Page 12398

 1             "Regarding the incident that took place on the 6th of August,

 2     1992, when I was wounded and captured by the members of the Serb military

 3     formations, I now do remember chronologically that I was transported by

 4     TAM to the Rajlovac Barracks in the evening hours and put in an

 5     improvised cell.  Stojanovic, Mile, came to take my personal details

 6     later on.  Lemez, Goran, and Apostolovski, Vlasto, a Macedonian, an

 7     active serviceman who was employed in the former JNA barracks in Rajlovac

 8     before the war as a 'plavac,' member of the air force in the rank of

 9     captain first class ..."

10             Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, I know him.

12        Q.   All right.  We don't need to continue reading.  Everyone can read

13     that.

14             Can we read the second paragraph.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters, kindly, would like to look at

16     the original.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The original is in e-court.  The

18     interpreters should be able to see them.

19             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.  Could you repeat the last part.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is the following paragraph.  I haven't read the first one.

22     It's the second evening.  In the English, we would need to look at the

23     next page:

24             "On the next evening, Mile Tintor, who was in civilian clothing,

25     and Lasta Apostolovski, came to the cell.  After they entered the cell,

Page 12399

 1     and when they saw me, Tintor addressed Apostolovski, 'What are you doing

 2     with the wounded people, Major?'  Then Apostolovski started to exonerate

 3     himself and shrugged his shoulders.  After that, Tintor again addressed

 4     Apostolovski, 'Major, if anyone touches Ramiz from now on, you will see

 5     who Mile Tintor is.'  After that, nobody beat me, but they kept on taking

 6     Gacanovic, Huso ...," and so on and so forth, "out."

 7             So these two visits that you described here, and as say you were

 8     visited by Lemez and Apostolovski, before that Mile Stojanovic, and after

 9     that Tintor; is that correct?

10        A.   Mile came in the afternoon, so I don't know why it says there

11     that it was in the evening.  It was still light.  In August, the days are

12     long.  It's true that he did say that to Vlasto, and it's true that

13     nobody ever touched me after that, but they did beat these other two men,

14     Asim Novalija and the other guy.

15        Q.   So a year after this supplemental statement, year and a half

16     after the supplemental statement, again you meet with the OTP of this

17     Tribunal, and for the fifth time you give an explanation in relation to

18     your statement from 1997; is that correct?

19        A.   Well, I really cannot be sure of the dates again.  I should have

20     kept a diary in order to keep track of everything.  I cannot remember all

21     of that.

22        Q.   Yes, we will call up these documents.  You have the right to

23     refresh your memory.

24             Can we now look at 65 ter 22188 now, please, page 4 in e-court,

25     and page 5 in English.  Let's look at paragraph 3 from the bottom in both

Page 12400

 1     versions.  It says:

 2             "Page 5, paragraph 5, lines 1 and 2:  It should be clarified that

 3     when I was wounded and taken prisoner in Ilijas municipality, I was

 4     driven to the Rajlovac Barracks in a TAM truck which belonged to the

 5     Butile Barracks before the war and which had been at that time before the

 6     war driven by Nikola Stanisic.  On that day when I was driven into the

 7     Rajlovac Barracks, the truck was driven by Slavisa Koprivica."

 8             Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  After that, you were summoned to come and testify in

11     the Momcilo Krajisnik case; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   That was in 2004, 12 years after the event and 5 years after you

14     gave these statements and provided the addendum to the statements; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Well, yes, that's approximately the time-frame.

17        Q.   So this testimony of yours is preceded by five statements, one

18     addendum to the statement, and your evidence given in the Krajisnik case.

19     You said that on the 7th of August, you were visited at Rajlovac Barracks

20     by the brother of Momcilo Krajisnik as well, whom you had never seen

21     before; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Would you like to see this to refresh your memory?

24        A.   There's no need.  I lived through it, and everything is in my

25     head.  No need for that.

Page 12401

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at your amalgamated

 2     witness statement, which is 65 ter 90219.

 3             The question was mistranslated, although I'm speaking more

 4     slowly.  Therefore, my proposition is that:  After five statements and

 5     addendums and twelve years after the event, for the first time in the

 6     trial against Momcilo Krajisnik, you mentioned that his brother came to

 7     visit you while you were in the cell; is that correct.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at your amalgamated

10     statement, page 12, paragraph 59.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The first visit by Mile Stojanovic, the second visit by Goran and

13     Apostolski, the third visit Tintor and Apostolski; is that correct?

14        A.   No.  The third visit was paid by these three gentlemen,

15     Mr. Poplasen and Mirko, and the third person was in uniform.  He didn't

16     say a word.  I didn't know him, and he never addressed me.  Of course, it

17     was Vlasto Apostolski who brought him in.

18        Q.   Did you just mention the name of Poplasen?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Now, I'm going to read it to you, paragraph 59, and it will be

21     translated to you:

22             [In English] "On the 7th of August, 1992, I received the third

23     visit to my cell that night.  Major Vlasto Apostolski came in.  He was

24     the commander of the military police of the Rajlovac Brigade, and three

25     men came in after him.  I knew Apostolski from before.  He was an active

Page 12402

 1     captain.  He introduced them and said of one, This is 'nadvojvoda.'  This

 2     man who was introduced as "nadvojvoda" was of middle build, perhaps a bit

 3     skinny, and with a beard.  This man was in civilian clothes.  I recalled

 4     him immediately as Nikola Poplasen because I used to see him from the TV.

 5     He also had specific accent that wasn't from Sarajevo.  One of the other

 6     men was Mirko Krajisnik, who I recognised.  I didn't recognise the third

 7     man, and he didn't introduce him either.  Krajisnik asked me to tell them

 8     where Hasan Mujkic was hiding and Husein Mujkic, two brothers.  Hasan

 9     Mujkic was the head of the Ahatovici Territorial Defence, TO, because he

10     was a policeman before the war.  He was an active-duty policeman.  They

11     were looking for my son, Elvir Mujkic, and they were looking for

12     Junuz Mujkic, too."

13             And so on and so on.

14             [Interpretation] Mr. Mujkic, who suggested to you that after five

15     statements and amendments to the statements, and 12 years later -- you

16     should involve Mirko Krajisnik in your statement?

17        A.   Your Honours, nobody suggested that to me.  I did not mention

18     that in my first statement because it was completely pointless.  I didn't

19     know what the reason for their visit was.  However, when I came here to

20     this Tribunal for the first time, I listened to the telephone

21     conversations between Bakir Alispahic and Mirko Krajisnik.  The second

22     conversation was between Mirko and Momcilo Krajisnik.  And then

23     everything fell into place, the whole picture why they came to visit me.

24     Alispahic said, Tell me his son was killed, tell me how much money you

25     need, and this is where this conversation ends.  Mirko wanted to see

Page 12403

 1     Dzino, the vojvoda, and Spahic [as interpreted] was to locate him, and

 2     that was the substance of this conversation.  However, the conversation

 3     between Momcilo and Mirko Krajisnik, Mirko told Momcilo, I've just

 4     received a call by Bakir, but Spahic [as interpreted] is offering me

 5     money.  We have Ramiz Mujkic in Rajlovac, who is seriously wounded.  Then

 6     Momcilo responds by saying, If you don't have money, I can give it to

 7     you.  He's looking for our snipers, What kind of money are you talking?

 8             So now I realised why they came to see me, and of course that was

 9     something that landed me in hospital.  I don't know if there was another

10     person --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slowly repeat the

12     second part of his answer.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mujkic, the interpreters were not able to catch

14     up with your words, so could you repeat from the part referring to you

15     didn't know if there was another person.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never heard that there was any

17     other fortunate man who had a fixator implanted in 1992 during the bloody

18     conflict or the bloodiest conflicts that took place in the village of

19     Ahatovici, and I can also mention Rakovica, the neighbouring village, as

20     well as Svrake in Vogosca municipality.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, a fixator is implanted in patients who have broken

23     bones.  Why would it be implanted to someone else?  Are you trying to say

24     that we did not treat the wounded people?

25        A.   I know that I was in Blazuj Hospital.  I knew that Serbian

Page 12404

 1     wounded people came and wanted to see me as some kind of freak.  And I

 2     said that that's all I knew and that I couldn't confirm anything.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Who suggested to you that in addition to Mirko

 4     Krajisnik, you mentioned the name of Mirko [as interpreted] Poplasen?

 5        A.   Do you really think that I am mad, that I need someone to tell me

 6     what to speak about here?  I can tell you at any time of the day what I

 7     went through and lived through.

 8        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, the Defence has to examine why you -- and explore why

 9     you didn't mention this in your first, second, third, fourth and fifth

10     statement, why you never mentioned such prominent figures before.  How

11     did it come about that suddenly you remembered Mirko Krajisnik, and later

12     on Mirko [as interpreted] Poplasen?  Did somebody tell you that Poplasen

13     was the commissioner in Vogosca?

14        A.   Well, Vogosca is not miles away.  I knew everything.  But I'm

15     telling you again there was no need for anyone to suggest anything to me.

16     I used to see Nikola Poplasen on TV when I was at home.  All these

17     sessions and meetings that took place before the war, he was shoulder to

18     shoulder with you, and he was among the highest echelons of the SDS.

19        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, when did you see Mr. Poplasen on TV?

20        A.   Towards the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992.  So it was not

21     just one day; it was every day.

22        Q.   What was Nikola Poplasen's function at the time?

23        A.   I am not a journalist or a reporter to be able to tell you which

24     position he's held, because I simply don't know.  I know that he was

25     sitting next to you in some of the meetings.

Page 12405

 1        Q.   That were broadcast by TV?

 2        A.   At the time, we had only Sarajevo TV.  There were no other TV

 3     stations.  In fact, there was TV Belgrade, but I was watching this on

 4     Sarajevo TV.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the transcript

 6     of your evidence in the Krajisnik case.  That's 65 ter 22191.  In the

 7     transcript, that's page 8005, and 84 in e-court.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So you stand by your statement that you knew Nikola Poplasen from

10     television and from the political life?

11        A.   I only knew him from TV.  I didn't know him personally, and that

12     is the truth.  And I made a declaration here that I was going to speak

13     the truth, and that is the truth.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we now look at from line 3, the question is:

16             [In English] "Do you know the name Nikola Poplasen?"

17             [Interpretation] And then you say:

18             [In English] "Not until that time, but the man was the president

19     of the Serbian Republic and President Petric replaced him."

20             [Interpretation] A new question:

21             [In English] "Did you see Nikola Poplasen at any time in August

22     1992?"

23             [No interpretation]:

24             [In English] "I didn't see anybody, just the people who came to

25     my cell."

Page 12406

 1             [Interpretation] So you hadn't seen Nikola Poplasen entering your

 2     cell with the other people.  Now, I'm kindly asking you once again --

 3        A.   The translation was so unclear and so random that I cannot make

 4     any connection between the details.  Can you repeat, please?

 5        Q.    [In English]  "Just the people who came to my cell, so no."

 6        A.   "So no," I think refers to Poplasen.  Your Honours, this is taken

 7     out of the context.  Where did I give this statement?

 8        Q.   You were asked this question by this same Prosecutor, Mr. Gaynor,

 9     who questioning you now, and this is stated in the Momcilo Krajisnik case

10     on transcript page 8005.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mujkic, this is a transcript of your evidence

12     given at the time of the trial against Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, so this is

13     part of your evidence.  I'll read it for you again.

14             So the question was this:

15             "Do you know the name Nikola Poplasen?"

16             And your answer is:

17             "Not until that time, but the man was the president of the

18     Serbian Republic, and President Petric replaced him.

19             "Q.  Did you see Nikola Poplasen at any time in August 1992.

20             "A.  I didn't see anybody, just the people who came to my cell.

21     So no."

22             So that's the transcript of your evidence.

23             So could you make any observation?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really surprised that this

25     statement was recorded as such, because I couldn't have said this.  It

Page 12407

 1     doesn't make sense, because I knew Nikola Poplasen from TV.  I knew him.

 2     He came to my cell.  However, the fact that she was the president of the

 3     Serbian Republic is something that refers to postwar period, so this is

 4     just a mish-mash of all various things.  And, therefore, I cannot accept

 5     this as my statement.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, would you like to see the video footage of your

 8     evidence on that day when you said what is recorded here?

 9        A.   It is impossible for me to have said something like this.  The

10     essence is missing and the sequence is missing.  I didn't see him --

11     there's mention of Petric.  That was after the war, and I was not

12     concerned about him at the time.

13        Q.   Who suggested to you to mention the name of Nikola Poplasen?  The

14     Prosecutor asked you if you knew him and whether he came to your cell,

15     and you said he didn't.  Now, who told you afterwards to mention

16     Nikola Poplasen alongside Mirko Krajisnik?

17        A.   I categorically state here that nobody suggested that to me.

18     This was my experience that I, unfortunately, had.  And I know these

19     three men who came to see me.  Nikola Poplasen and Mirko Krajisnik came,

20     and this third man with a well-groomed beard who didn't ask me anything.

21     You're asking me for the third time who suggested this to me, and that

22     implies that I'm telling a lie, and that's not a lie.

23        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, do you know what Nikola Poplasen did before the war?

24        A.   I think he was a professor.

25        Q.   And do you know that before the war, Nikola Poplasen didn't play

Page 12408

 1     any role in the political life, nor was he a member of the SDS?

 2        A.   I don't care about that.  I didn't keep any record of who was a

 3     member or who was not.  But I would really like to see if there were any

 4     Serbs who weren't members of the SDS.

 5        Q.   Now, if I tell you that nowhere before the war, not in any

 6     meeting with me or in some other meetings, did he participate, what do

 7     you have to say to that?

 8        A.   I will tell you that you are not telling the truth.

 9        Q.   Do you know which party was Nikola Poplasen a member of?

10        A.   Your Honours, is it possible for these questions not to be asked

11     of me?  I only mentioned that Nikola Poplasen came to visit me in my

12     cell.  What he did before the war is something that doesn't -- didn't

13     interest me.

14        Q.   But you said that you saw him sitting next to me?

15        A.   Yes, I saw him on TV, but I don't know which position he held.

16        Q.   Let me help you, Mr. Mujkic.  Nikola Poplasen was a distinguished

17     professor at the Faculty of Political Sciences.  He was not involved in

18     any kind of politics, any kind of public life before the war.  He was

19     asked, as a person of a high reputation, to go to Vogosca to help the

20     authorities there.  Otherwise, he was president of the Serb Radical

21     Party, and, as such, he won the election.

22             JUDGE KWON:  You are not giving evidence.  I think that question

23     has been asked and answered.  Let us move on.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Well, what I said, are you denying that?  Are you denying that he

Page 12409

 1     was president of the Radical Party?

 2        A.   Sir, I am not interested in that at all.  I never mentioned the

 3     position he held before the war.  I saw him with you, and I know that he

 4     was president of the municipality in Vogosca during the war.  After the

 5     war, he was president of the Serbian Republic, and Wolfgang Petric, the

 6     high representative, removed him because of what you said, right, the

 7     wonderful reputation he enjoyed.  And we all know full well what that was

 8     all about.

 9        Q.   Let you see now how come you mentioned out of the blue something

10     you refer to in the proofing.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 226190, 65 ter, can we have a look

12     at that.  Can we have that transcript page from the Krajisnik trial --

13     can that be admitted, and all the previous ones, the ones we displayed

14     previously?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you mean in their entirety?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not necessarily; just individual

17     pages, the pages we displayed and that were commented upon by the

18     witness.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from you, Mr. Gaynor?

20             MR. GAYNOR:  No objection to that request, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I don't remember how long those

22     statements were, but we'll admit the relevant pages.  If it is short,

23     there's no problem in admitting them all, but we admit what we have seen.

24             Shall we give the numbers, respectively?  First, the 92 bis

25     statement.

Page 12410

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  The 92 bis statement, 65 ter 22188, will be

 2     Exhibit D1101.  The 1998 statement, which is 1D3269, will be

 3     Exhibit D1102.  The 2000 statement will be Exhibit D1103.  That's 1D3268.

 4     And the transcript page, 22191, will be Exhibit D1104.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Let us see how you remembered all of this all of a sudden just

 8     before you testified in Krajisnik.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have what I already

10     mentioned, 22190.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   This is additional information that you provided to the OTP just

13     before you testified.  Let us see where it says -- the lower third of the

14     page, the 10th line.

15             JUDGE KWON:  But it will be better for you to explain the nature

16     of this document, what this document is about.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You gave additional information to the OTP in relation to your

19     statements and all of these things that happened after you were taken

20     prisoner and after you were taken to the prison in Planjo's house.  Now,

21     I would be interested in the following:  Do you remember that you

22     provided, on the 1st of November, 2004, just before you testified in the

23     Krajisnik case, that you provided some supplemental information?

24        A.   I really cannot.  I did not keep a diary as to when I said what.

25     But if it has my signature there, I stand by it.

Page 12411

 1        Q.   You are not directly quoted here.  You are being interpreted here

 2     by the learned Mr. Gaynor.  I'm going to read this out to you, and you

 3     are either going to recognise it or not:

 4             [In English] "During the witness's detention at Planjo's house,

 5     he witnessed a number of events of humiliation and cruelty carried out by

 6     'weekend Chetniks' and prison guards, such as, first, forcing a May

 7     detainee to eat used cigarettes and to perform oral sex on another male

 8     detainee in the presence of guards and other detainees; and, second,

 9     forcing detainees to dive off the high fence onto concrete."

10             [Interpretation] You provided a description here, and you

11     seriously accused people, and this is appalling.  However, you never

12     mentioned any of that in your previous five statements given to the

13     authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to the OTP, you never mentioned

14     that.  You remembered that when you were supposed to appear before this

15     Court and testify against Momcilo Krajisnik; isn't that right?

16        A.   That is not right.  No one ever asked me about these things that

17     happened.  Quite simply, in my first statement -- I mean, I wish I could

18     erase all of this from my memory, and I wish I had never seen any of

19     this, but it is true.  I was with an investigator.  I think that he was

20     from Australia.  And we went to Planjo's house.  I saw a photograph --

21     last Tuesday when I was being proofed here, I saw a photograph of

22     Planjo's house, and also there was this picture of the bus, the massacre

23     that occurred at Sastina [phoen], and he asked me what the attitude of

24     the Serb guards was towards you then, you, the detainees.  Then I spoke

25     of this excessive conduct -- excuse me for a moment.  The man was

Page 12412

 1     appalled by what I told him.  I mean, when you get there and when you

 2     actually see the spot, and when you see that he jumped there to prove

 3     that he could swim.  So those two statements were afterwards included in

 4     my statement.

 5        Q.   Oh, I see.  So you were instigated by the Australian

 6     investigator?

 7        A.   No, sir, he did not instigate me.  He just asked me what the

 8     attitude was.  He didn't force me to say anything.  I just told him about

 9     what had happened.  You are twisting things.

10        Q.   Why didn't you say that in your first statement to the

11     authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   To the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Well, to tell you the

13     truth, I did not know at the time how far all of this would go, and

14     nobody really asked me anything.  They knew about torture.  Sir, you know

15     all of that full well, except that you are evading the truth.  Not even

16     the prison of God is good, let alone a Serb prison.  I'm not saying that

17     prisons are much better, I mean, other ones.

18        Q.   Muslim prisons?

19        A.   Well, if the prison of God is not good, nobody's prison is good.

20        Q.   All right.  Let us see what you said in your amalgamated

21     statement, that is 65 ter --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we have this admitted

23     as well?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  No objection, Mr. President.

Page 12413

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  But when was it, Mr. Mujkic, that you said to

 2     the Australian investigator about the horrible incidents during your

 3     detention?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please don't take my word for the

 5     date, but before I came for the first time in 2004.  We were there in the

 6     summer, and then I came in October/November 2004 for the first time, so I

 7     cannot say exactly what the date was, but it was summertime, it was very

 8     hot.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             That will be admitted as Exhibit D1105.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, were you a member of the Crisis Staff in Ahatovici?

13        A.   No, I was not.  I state that with full responsibility.  However,

14     upon orders of the Crisis Staff, I remained in Butile Barracks until the

15     9th of May.  And then on the 9th of May, I escaped, because they wanted

16     to put a uniform on me and to issue weapons to me, and then I could not

17     go home.  On the 9th of May, Sokolje was attacked, because that day was

18     not really a normal day at the Butile Barracks.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll go back to that.

20             Let's look at 65 ter 22188, page 16, in e-court.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   That is your statement to the AID in 1996, that is, the secret

23     police of the Muslim part of Bosnia; right?

24        A.   I gave a statement at the police building.  I mean, quite simply,

25     I wasn't interested in who was who.  As for the AID, I don't really know

Page 12414

 1     people.  For the most part, they wore civilian clothes.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 3     witness.  Other microphones are on.  Could they all please be switched

 4     off.  Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] In English, it's page 18, and in

 6     Serbian, it's page 16.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure the interpreters followed the last bit

 8     of your question and answer.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Yes, I think everything

10     was interpreted, but with great difficulty.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Let's continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 16 in

14     Serbian and page 18 in English of this statement.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   If you look at the Serbian page, look at the name of

17     Alija Delimustafic in line 15.  I think that is going to help you find

18     that page, capital letters.  And over here in English, it's around the

19     middle:

20             [In English] "To TO:  I informed the commander of the TO, Hasan

21     Mujkic ..."

22             It says:

23             "I informed the commander of the TO, Hasan Mujkic, about this,

24     who told me that he was working on the order of Alija Delimustafic, the

25     then minister of the interior, and he showed me a fax message that he had

Page 12415

 1     received, which said that the army barracks in Butile should not be

 2     attacked.  Three or four days later, a message came from Delimustafic

 3     that the army barracks in Butile should be taken.  It was already too

 4     late because we found out that, in the meantime, intervention units of

 5     the Serb volunteers, called the White Eagles, had arrived there."

 6             Let us see now how you explained all of this in your testimony in

 7     the Krajisnik case.  It's the very same occurrence.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, let us remember this page,

 9     and now let us have 65 ter 22191.  22191, page 150 in e-court, and 9240

10     in the transcript, itself.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Let us look at line 14:

13             [In English]

14             "Q.  Now, do you agree with me, Mr. Mujkic, that you don't say

15     anything there about that order from Mr. Delimustafic that the army

16     barracks in Butile should be taken over was just a rumour being put about

17     by women?"

18             [Interpretation] Your answer:

19             [In English] "It doesn't say so here, but that's the truth,

20     because I didn't see the second fax and the statement doesn't say that I

21     saw it."

22             [Interpretation] Question:

23             [In English] "Now, you've gotten that last sentence there:  'It

24     was already too late because we found out in the meantime.'  Who was the

25     'we'?"

Page 12416

 1             [Interpretation] Answer:

 2             [In English] "Well, the Crisis Staff."

 3             [Interpretation] Did you say that?

 4        A.   I cannot remember whether I said it.  It is possible that I did.

 5     I was not a member of the Crisis Staff.  However, I just wish to explain

 6     here to clarify something.  I haven't said that anywhere before, but I

 7     shouldn't go on forever.  Six soldiers remained in Butile Barracks.  They

 8     were ethnic Albanians.  They did not manage to withdraw from the

 9     barracks.  And there was a Croat who was left there, and I didn't know

10     that he was a Croat otherwise I would have gotten him out, because I did

11     get five Croat soldiers out, anyway.

12             During the night, because he was my messenger, because I was a

13     mechanic and the bakery in Butile had to operate, and then this messenger

14     would come to see me whenever possible and he brought me news as to what

15     was going on, and then he said, The barracks can be taken, because

16     Nikola Soput's unit has left and there are only a few drunken reservists

17     there.  And I told Hasan Mujkic about that.  He sent a fax to

18     Delimustafic.  The fax returned:  "Do not touch the Butile Barracks.  I

19     saw that, and I guarantee that that's the way it was.

20             Soon afterwards, three, four, five days later, whatever, Hasan

21     called me and said, A fax arrived that the barracks should be taken.  A

22     soldier did not come to see me after that.  And I said, I'm not going

23     there anymore.  And that was that.

24        Q.   Thank you.  The Crisis Staff of Ahatovici, did it place any

25     roadblocks?

Page 12417

 1        A.   We did not place any roadblocks, but we had three trenches

 2     opposite us, because Ahatovici and Dobrosevici are separated only by a

 3     road, and we are about 50 metres from the road.  That's why we had three

 4     trenches where weapons were.  People came there in shifts, the weapons

 5     stayed there, but we did not have any roadblocks, no.

 6        Q.   And it says here that you blocked the approaches to Ahatovici and

 7     Dobrosevici, right, and that was ordered by the Crisis Staff; right?

 8        A.   No, that's not true, because Dobrosevici was primarily populated

 9     by Serbs, so it was not possible for me to go in front of a Serb house

10     and to put a roadblock there.

11        Q.   All right.  Let us have a look at this now --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a number for this

13     transcript page that we have shown just now, transcript page 9240, the

14     Krajisnik transcript.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to tender it?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we add it to the already-existing transcript

18     or shall we admit it separately?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, very well.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll add it to the previous one, which is

21     Exhibit D1104.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You say that you did not block the approaches to Ahatovici and

24     Dobrosevici because Dobrosevici was populated by Serbs, predominantly by

25     Serbs; is that right?

Page 12418

 1        A.   I said that I wasn't in the Crisis Staff.  There was nothing else

 2     I could do.  As for the roadblocks, I don't know.  My house is at the

 3     beginning of Ahatovici, and across from there immediately is the

 4     settlement of Dobrosevici.  My neighbours across the street were Serbs.

 5     My house was on the right-hand side.  There were no roadblocks there,

 6     other than two roadblocks the Reljevo and Bojnik bridges.  These were two

 7     main arteries leading to the town.  I mean, what would be the point of

 8     the roadblocks if you cannot go to town?  Why would I be going to

 9     Dobrosevici?

10        Q.   On line 21 -- page 20, line 26 of today's transcript, you say:

11             [In English] "So it was not possible for me to go in front of the

12     Serb house and to put a roadblock there."

13             [Interpretation] Let us now see what you said in your statement

14     from 1996.  This is the same 65 ter 22188, on page 15 and page 17 in the

15     English.  65 ter 22188.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we tender this page 16 as

17     well?  We can add it to the same number, the page 16 where we talked

18     about Delimustafic.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, in light of the fact that the witness

20     is putting quite -- that the accused is putting quite a number of pages

21     from these statements to the witness, I submit that the easiest thing

22     might be to do, to admit the statements in their entirety, both of the

23     prior statements that have been shown to the witness by the accused.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would need a lot more time, then,

25     for the cross-examination, because then I would need to shed light for

Page 12419

 1     the other aspects.  All I'm interested in is what I'm citing in the

 2     courtroom.  If I get more time, then I have nothing against that, but

 3     let's not lose any more time now.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, let's do that.  Given that we did not

 5     admit so many pages so far, so we'll follow that.  That will be added to

 6     the transcript.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 17 in the

 8     English so that everyone can see what we are looking at.  In the Serbian,

 9     it should be page 17; page 3 in the actual statement.  What I'm looking

10     at here is page 5, actually.  It should be page 3 in the Serbian, and in

11     the English -- actually, that is page 15 in the e-court in the Serbian,

12     page 15 in the e-court in Serbian.  And English, page 17 in e-court.

13             Thank you, and let's get the correct page in the English.

14     Page 17 in the e-court, and that is actually page 4 in the statement,

15     itself.  The English is good and the Serbian is good.

16             The last paragraph in English, and now we will see where that is

17     in the Serbian.  The bottom third in the English.  It says:

18             "Armed Serbs set up barricades on the road as early as March as

19     an introduction into war activities, and they controlled the traffic and

20     passengers with a constant mistreatment.  As a reply to their activities,

21     we also set up check-points in the villages of Ahatovici and

22     Dobrosevici ..."

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did you state that, sir?

25        A.   I couldn't have said anything like that, because I was not in the

Page 12420

 1     Crisis Staff.  It's not just -- Ahatovici is not just the place where my

 2     house is, it's a broader area, and it doesn't make any sense for us to be

 3     setting up check-points in Dobrosevici.  There were two main barricades

 4     on the two bridges, and whoever passed that way would experience

 5     mistreatment, and all entrances and exits were monitored.

 6        Q.   In this statement, though, you said that you did place a

 7     roadblock in front of Dobrosevici.  Did somebody change or alter these

 8     statements, and do you stand by what you said there?

 9        A.   It's impossible to have that in Dobrosevici.  It's Serbian all

10     the way from Dobrosevici to Ahatovici, it's all Serb houses.  Sir, I

11     mean, as I said before, I cannot go in front of a Serbian house and place

12     a barricade there.

13        Q.   All right.  We're going to see later how that goes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 90219,

15     and can we add this page, please?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not already in the evidence, or only part of

17     it?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think so.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you let us know the page numbers of this

20     document which we have already admitted?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We admitted -- or asked to have

22     page 16 in the Serbian and page 18 in the English, then here we have page

23     15 in the Serbian and page 17 in the English.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We are admitting from 16 to 18, the pages.  That

25     being the case, I see no problem.  We'll admit it.

Page 12421

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we now look at 65 ter 90219.  This is your consolidated

 3     statement, paragraphs 35 to 38.  That's in English, yes, the consolidated

 4     statement.  65 ter 90219, consolidated statement of Mr. Mujkic,

 5     paragraphs from 35 to 38.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And now here you describe the events in Gornja Bioca.  Do you

 8     remember describing that on this page of your statement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Let's look at paragraph 36, where it says:

11             "Unfortunately ..."

12             [In English] "... I did not meet up with our group.  Instead, I

13     encountered Serbs near the village of Gornja Bioca who had been taken

14     over the village and were now pushing from the north.  These were voices

15     of the Serb soldiers going from Ilijas.  According to the way they spoke

16     and the swear words they used, I realised that it was the Serb Army."

17             [Interpretation] So here you assert, before this Tribunal, in

18     this statement that you were personally at that place, at that time, and

19     that you concluded that it was the Serbian soldiers because they were

20     swearing?

21        A.   I'm very familiar with the way Serbian soldiers speak.  I was

22     born there.  I was 44, and I had lived there all that time, so I am very

23     familiar with that jargon.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The answer begins with:  "Yes," for

25     the purposes of the transcript.  Please, can we note that the witness

Page 12422

 1     first said, "Yes," at the beginning of the answer.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The other soldiers don't swear; is that correct?

 6        A.   Your Honours, I can explain.  For example, somebody would

 7     pronounce "bread" in a different way.  For example, they wouldn't say

 8     "hleb," they would say, "leb," and this is something that I heard when I

 9     came to that place.  And I could tell because they were dropping the Hs.

10     The houses were empty, there was nobody there.  Bioca was occupied the

11     day before, so these forces started moving from Ahatovici forward towards

12     the north.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break, if it is convenient.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one question, if I may just

15     round off this part, Your Honour.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   In your testimony --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document,

19     please?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not his amalgamated statement?

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I believe it's P2314.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then look at 65 ter 22191,

24     please, so that we can see what you stated in the Krajisnik trial.

25     65 ter 22191, page 25 in the e-court.  And in the transcript, this is

Page 12423

 1     page 7946, line 10:

 2             [In English] "On the 22nd of August, I was brought from the

 3     hospital, Zica Blazuj, the Ilijas municipality, to Planjina Kuca,

 4     Planjina house in Semizovac.

 5             "Q.  Now, sir, you said that the population of Gornja Bioca had

 6     been taken away to the school of Donja Bioca.  Who took them away?"

 7             [Interpretation] Answer:

 8             [In English] "Sir, Your Honours, I can't say -- or rather, on the

 9     basis of their stories and what they said, this was done by the Serb

10     Army, the Serbian soldiers, the units of the Ilijas municipality, in

11     fact.  I can't comment.  I can't guarantee.  I didn't see it myself.  But

12     what I did see ..."

13             And so on and so on.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   So there is no mention of swear words or anything about you

16     hearing and being able to recognise the rhetoric of the Serbian soldiers?

17        A.   Well, Your Honours, you cannot take it like that.  We're talking

18     about some 20 days -- actually, three months after that.  I heard the

19     swear words on the 31st of May, 1992.  I'm a little bit unsure about the

20     dates here.

21             As for the people in Semizovac in prison --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  I can raise this in redirect, but if the accused is

25     going to put that part of the answer to the witness, he should carry on a

Page 12424

 1     little further down through the answer and put the rest of it to the

 2     witness.  I think he knows the part I'm talking about.  Just simply the

 3     next three sentences, if he could put those to the witness, out of

 4     fairness to the witness.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's look at it:

 6             [In English] "What I did see and I did happen to meet those Serb

 7     soldiers who had already cleared Bioca and moved towards Ahatovici.  So

 8     there was an order to this.  I didn't see that actually happen, but

 9     judging by what they said, yes, because the 3rd unit wasn't there, the

10     one that could have done that."

11             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Well, it's the whole answer and it's different from what you said

13     in paragraph 36 of the consolidated statement; isn't that right?

14        A.   You mixed up a lot of things here.  I understand your status and

15     I understand that it's in your interests to mix things up, but you cannot

16     mix things up because I am going to say everything in the sequence

17     according to the dates as things happened.  I lived through that.  It's

18     my life.  Nobody wrote it down for me to be able to learn it off by

19     heart.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I will really need to

21     have some extra time.  I'm really frustrated by this lack of time.  I

22     mean, we can take the break now, but I would really like to ask for an

23     entire session.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add this page to the Exhibit D1104.

25             And we'll have a break for 25 minutes.  We'll resume at seven

Page 12425

 1     minutes past 4.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             From the document 22188, 65 ter, can we have pages --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the page

 8     numbers.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Page numbers?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Those are pages, in e-court, 19 and

11     22, Serbian and English respectively, and the second part is number 10

12     and 11, Serbian and English respectively.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say you are tendering those pages?

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, they will be added to the exhibit.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, you were born in 1948; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Were you born in Ahatovici?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was Ahatovici in Rajlovac municipality at the time or was it the

22     district of Rajlovac which later became the municipality?

23        A.   As far as I know, we were part of Novo Sarajevo municipality.

24     And when Novi Grad municipality was established, which is about 10

25     kilometres from Novo Sarajevo, we became part of Novi Grad.

Page 12426

 1        Q.   Do you know that up until 1958, when you were 10, Rajlovac used

 2     to be a municipality, and Ahatovici was part of that municipality?

 3        A.   I don't remember that.  A 10-year-old child did not necessarily

 4     need to know in which municipality or district he lived.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I object on the ground of relevance.  It's a totally

 7     irrelevant question.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have document 1D03259.

 9             Your Excellency, I would like to remind you that Donia and other

10     witnesses, including this witness, objected to the process of

11     establishing the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac.  Our proposition was

12     that it used to be a municipality, that it was abolished and driven into

13     poverty because all the major economic assets were moved to Novi Grad

14     municipality.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   What is written in your birth certificate?

17        A.   That I was born in Ahatovici village and that I was a citizen of

18     BH.

19        Q.   No municipality?

20        A.   Novi Grad municipality.  It is true, there was a register office

21     in Rajlovac, and these records were moved to Pale.  I know that because I

22     work at Novi Grad Municipality and I am familiar with these procedures.

23     And even UNPROFOR had to intervene for those records to be returned to

24     Novi Grad municipality that belonged to them.

25        Q.   Rajlovac municipality never existed.  Now, look at --

Page 12427

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, look at this document.  Why do we not

 2     have English translation?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We didn't have time,

 4     Your Excellency.  We were going to translate the whole interview, but I

 5     only wanted to ask Mr. Mujkic whether he knew that Rajlovac municipality

 6     had existed until 1958 in which there were Orao factory, a distribution

 7     centre, Sprint, Sarajevo Gas, and other important economic enterprises

 8     were located there.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Orao is located

10     within the compound of the Rajlovac Barracks, and it was part of the

11     military complex.  Therefore, it was never part of the civilian

12     structure.  The distribution centre was built in the 1980s, and that used

13     to be just an agricultural co-operative with barren fields.  And there

14     were about 50 houses there, the land taken from the farmers, pursuant to

15     Tito's decree, and taken to -- and given to the co-operative.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You can say whatever you like.  This municipality was renewed in

18     February 1992 as a municipality, which means before the war.

19        A.   My dear sir, we had barricades at the time.  The first barricades

20     were set up in January on the Reljevo Bridge, and no Muslim could pass

21     through.  And there's only 300 metres from the bridge to the distribution

22     centre, where your wartime municipality was.  For your information, as

23     the secretary of the local commune in 1996, I had an office in the

24     distribution centre, because everything across the bridge had been

25     demolished, and it was impossible to move because of the land-mines until

Page 12428

 1     a team established that there were no mines.

 2        Q.   You deny that this was a municipality, and it says the contrary

 3     here.

 4        A.   It was wartime.  I couldn't go there, I never mentioned it, and I

 5     don't want to talk about it.

 6        Q.   You say that Orao company was not a civilian company?

 7        A.   Orao was part of the military industry, and it was within the

 8     compound of the Rajlovac Barracks.

 9        Q.   In your statement of the 22nd, June 1997, page 2, you say that

10     Orao was a civilian company, run by the military?

11        A.   Well, that's one-and-the-same thing, it just being formulated

12     differently.  It was within the barracks, and no one had access there,

13     other than through the main gate, and people were coming to and from

14     work.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we going to tender this

16     interview into evidence and, actually, marked for identification?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, when I asked you why we do not have an

18     English translation of this document, you said you wanted to ask -- you

19     wanted to ask the question to the witness, a question which is totally

20     unrelated to this interview.  You have been repeatedly warned by the

21     Trial Chamber that you must have English translations of all your

22     documents in order to use them in the courtroom.  I think we have been

23     very generous in permitting you to make use of untranslated documents

24     thus far.  And I also advise you to better organise your team and make

25     use of the Tribunal's translation tracking system, et cetera.

Page 12429

 1             Please take this advice to heart.  Next time, we may stop you

 2     using untranslated documents.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I fully understand and

 4     I accept that, but I have to say that this pace that I am trying to

 5     maintain is extremely difficult and neck-breaking.

 6             The question whether the municipality of Rajlovac was established

 7     for economic or political reasons was something that was raised by

 8     Prosecution witnesses, primarily Donia, and this was also mentioned by

 9     this witness, which I don't think they found too pleasant or acceptable.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But with respect to this clip, did the witness say

11     anything about this one?  I don't see any basis.

12             Mr. Gaynor.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  I agree, Mr. President.

14             I'm not in a position to comment on a very informed basis,

15     because I have no idea what this article says, but I don't believe the

16     witness has said anything to confirm this article.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Let us proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, you worked as a civilian in the Yugoslav People's

20     Army; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, from the 1st of October, 1967.

22        Q.   Thank you.  As a JNA employee, did you have certain obligations

23     towards this army, in terms of loyalty, confidentiality, et cetera?

24        A.   Yes, while it was the Yugoslav People's Army.

25        Q.   And when did you decide that it was no longer the Yugoslav

Page 12430

 1     People's Army and that you do not owe it any loyalty or any obligation to

 2     observe the Rules of Service?

 3        A.   When Yugoslavia started to disintegrate, first it was called rump

 4     Yugoslavia, and the behaviour of the military personnel, officers and

 5     soldiers, was completely disrupted.  When they removed the five-pointed

 6     star and put instead the insignia of the Serbian Army, that wasn't the

 7     Yugoslav People's Army for me any longer.

 8        Q.   Was that in September of 1991?

 9        A.   I know that you like to refer to dates.  However, I cannot

10     confirm this.  It was towards the end now of 1991, though.

11        Q.   Did you persuade, in September of 1991, your son to desert from

12     the JNA?

13        A.   Yes, and I managed to pull him out from Sremska Mitrovica during

14     my third attempt to take him out.  He was driving Seselj's men towards

15     Vukovar and Vinkovci, and people used to ridicule him for the fact that

16     they thought that he looked nice with a cockade.  And in September 1991,

17     I personally took him out of the army.

18        Q.   And in September 1991, the Serbs wore cockade -- the

19     Yugoslav People's Army wore cockades?

20        A.   In Croatia, yes.

21        Q.   Well, this is news to me, Mr. Mujkic.

22        A.   I think you know that very well.

23        Q.   Why didn't you mention that earlier?  Rather, you said that you

24     persuaded him to secretly leave the JNA in September.

25        A.   He served in Topci [phoen] there, in Belgrade, and he left in

Page 12431

 1     this 18-kilometre convoy.  I didn't see it, personally.  I saw it on TV

 2     only.  And his unit was stationed in Sremska Mitrovica.  Those were

 3     combat operations conducted against Croatia and Vukovar.  And I don't

 4     know which person of a sound mind would allow his own child to go and

 5     fight for somebody else's interests.

 6        Q.   At that point, Bosnia was still part of Yugoslavia, and no

 7     decision was yet made to secede, nor was it recognised?

 8        A.   I wasn't on the Presidency of Bosnia.  Therefore, I wouldn't like

 9     to remember these things.  I wasn't part of that, and, therefore, I don't

10     want to answer that question.

11        Q.   In this same statement from 1997, on page 3, you say the

12     following, and that is while you were working at the barracks:

13             "Because I was a Muslim, I try not to observe too many things,

14     but at least on 10 occasions I saw people arriving in cars."

15             Did you make a point of trying to observe as little as possible?

16        A.   Pursuant to an order of the Crisis Staff, I remained in the

17     barracks until the 9th of May.  And for your information, I wasn't on the

18     payroll during the months of March and April, because we received our

19     salaries in cash rather than through the savings bank.  But I stayed

20     behind precisely because I wanted to see what was going on.

21     Butile Barracks was close by, and everything was normal until a military

22     police unit with Colonel Nikola Soput came, and then everything went

23     pear-shaped.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And pursuant to an order of the Crisis Staff, you

25     stayed behind to spy on the army in which you were working as a civilian?

Page 12432

 1        A.   Sir, as soon as they removed their five-pointed star, they were

 2     no longer the army I worked for.  They became a Serbian Army.  And for

 3     your information, although you know that very well, the Croatian

 4     personnel, both the soldiers and the officers, left it.  The people from

 5     Kosovo left it as well, as much as they could, because it was difficult

 6     for them to reach Kosovo.  And Muslims were also leaving en masse.  And

 7     as an electrician who was working at the bakery, Nikola Soput told me

 8     personally, Make sure that there is bread for each soldier, and for the

 9     rest, don't have any problems.  And that is why I stayed.

10        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, a minute ago you said that you stayed as ordered by

11     the Crisis Staff, and I think you repeated that in your 1996 statement,

12     and that the purpose of that was to inform the TO of Ahatovici about the

13     developments in the barracks.  Is that it?

14        A.   Well, yes, that's it, and I'm not ashamed of that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the people of Ahatovici, in February

16     1992, which means before the elections and before barricades, introduced

17     nightly patrols and that they had been preparing for war.  They didn't

18     have enough weapons, but you, nevertheless, had permanent positions and

19     dugouts around the village?

20        A.   You have enumerated so many things.  I don't remember saying

21     anything to that effect, but it is true that we had three trenches facing

22     Dobrosevici with three automatic rifles, and people rotated, because the

23     remaining weapons were hunting rifles or some make-shift rifles made of

24     water-pipes.  You might not believe it.  But as for these sheds and

25     barricades that you mentioned, I don't know about that.

Page 12433

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this statement, which

 2     is 65 ter 22188 from 1997?  It's page 3 in hard copy, and I don't know

 3     which page it is in e-court.  So page 3.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   While we are waiting:  Mr. Mujkic, can we agree that the first

 6     barricades were erected on the 1st or 2nd of March, 1992?

 7        A.   Which barricades are you having in mind, specifically?  Because

 8     you are moving left and right, I would like you to tell me exactly which

 9     barricades you mean.

10        Q.   The first barricades erected by the Serbs.  Were they erected on

11     the 1st of March, after the killing of a member of the Serbian wedding

12     party in Sarajevo?

13        A.   I don't want to talk about Sarajevo.  I had no need to go to the

14     city because my house was on the left bank of the River Bosna.  I didn't

15     go to the city in those days because it was risky.  Therefore, I'm not

16     going to answer this question.

17             And as for these two barricades on the bridge, it is true that

18     they were erected, and initially it was possible to pass through.  But

19     later on, public transportation buses would stop people, ID would be

20     checked, et cetera.

21        Q.   Thank you.  The checks were carried out in April, after the war

22     broke out in Sarajevo; right?

23        A.   It was in March too, sir.  And in February, the barricade on the

24     bridge in Reljevo had already been placed because - how shall I put

25     this? - there are 500 metres apart.  It's only the Bosna River that

Page 12434

 1     divided them.  Well, no Muslim could get through that.

 2        Q.   Why did no one ever report on this in the media or in official

 3     reports, that before the 1st of March, there were some barricades,

 4     Mr. Mujkic?  How come nobody knows that there were no barricades?

 5        A.   Well, I've already told you where I worked, and I worked there as

 6     an electrician.  And I wasn't a journalist, I wasn't supposed to send

 7     reports to the media.

 8        Q.   I'm not sure that this is that statement, 65 ter --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Try page 8.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the 92 bis package, 22198,

11     I think.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I meant the B/C/S 8, the next page for the English.

13             Is this it?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Could you please focus on this:

17             "People in the village of Ahatovici ..."

18             The fourth paragraph from the top:

19             "People in the village of Ahatovici introduced, in February 1992,

20     some neither patrols after the Serb reservists placed a check-point

21     across the Bosna River right by the barracks."

22             Were there any Serb reservists there in February 1992 or was this

23     the JNA fully legitimately in Bosnia, and Bosnia was part of Yugoslavia?

24        A.   Well, soldiers who did their military service had an extension of

25     three months, and then six months, because new soldiers were not being

Page 12435

 1     brought in.  At the time, reservists came, and they were arming.  Some of

 2     them stayed in barracks, but sniper shooters went outside the barracks.

 3     They were just issued with camouflage uniforms and sniper rifles, and

 4     they left the barracks.  And I believe, and I say this with full

 5     responsibility, there were reservists at the end of February and the

 6     beginning of March at the Butile Barracks.

 7        Q.   What about Vehbija Karic, Enver Hadzihasanovic, and Karavelic?

 8     I'm not sure about Karavelic, actually.  Were they still in the Command

 9     of the 2nd Military District, the 4th Corps in Sarajevo?

10        A.   I don't know about Karavelic, but I know about Enver Zejnilagic,

11     because he was commander of the Butile Barracks.  And for your

12     information, I can say to you that I took his car out.  He had a Skoda, a

13     new Skoda car.  It had only 2.000 miles on it.  And he left the gate, and

14     there was no -- there were no guards there.  But before the Bosna River,

15     I gave him his car and we said goodbye, and I never saw him again.  I

16     don't know about the others.  I didn't go up there.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at this same paragraph.  This is what

18     you're saying --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Next for the English.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In the same paragraph, you say:

22             "After April 1992, the Muslims were not allowed to pass at all."

23             JUDGE KWON:  The previous page, page 3, the page --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the same in Serbian, the same

25     paragraph.

Page 12436

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   "The village of Ahatovici ...."

 3             Do you see there:

 4             "At first, they did not check anyone.  After, they started doing

 5     random checks.  After April 1992, Muslims were not allowed to pass that

 6     way at all.  Serbs, however, could pass check-points at any time.  This

 7     check-point did not stop me from arriving at work, but only from arriving

 8     in Sarajevo."

 9             Do you know that after the 5th of April, front-lines were

10     established in Sarajevo, and that's why you could not get into Sarajevo?

11        A.   I'm saying now and I'll say it again:  I had no need to go to

12     Sarajevo because the barracks were only 2 kilometres away from my home on

13     the left bank of the Bosna river, so I didn't have to go to that

14     check-point.  As for Sarajevo, when the front lines were established,

15     you're supposed to know that because you're the one who organised them.

16        Q.   We're going to leave your remarks aside.  Let us look at the next

17     paragraph:

18             "We patrolled only during the night."

19             And look at this, what it says here:

20             "There was no co-ordination with larger units."

21             You had Territorial Defence, 200 men, and there was no

22     co-ordination with larger units.  The TO was not well armed, but they did

23     have some permanent positions around the village, dug outs, and cottages.

24     When did you build all of that for war purposes?

25        A.   There were no dugouts there ever.  I don't know how this came up.

Page 12437

 1     I do not remember saying that.  Trenches, everyone knows what a trench

 2     is.  And then a tarpaulin is placed on it so that rain would not fall

 3     into it.  But - I don't know - say howitzers, mortars, et cetera, we

 4     didn't have that kind of weaponry.

 5        Q.   What was it that you knew, Mr. Mujkic?  What was it that you knew

 6     and that other people did not know, and how come you then sent your

 7     daughter to Germany in April 1992?  Or did others also know and send

 8     other people out?

 9        A.   I knew because I watched you on TV every night.

10        Q.   And you sent your daughter to Germany, and your son stayed in the

11     Territorial Defence; right?

12        A.   I also begged him, besieged him, not to leave, and he said,

13     Father, the Chetniks are going to come here, and you don't know what the

14     Chetniks are.  They put a cockade on my head.  I know.  So,

15     psychologically, I'm at peace from that point of view.  Regrettably, I

16     still don't know where his bones are.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did anybody else send their children out, civilians?

18        A.   Whoever had someone in Germany, they did, especially children who

19     were minors.  And I'm glad that at least my daughter is alive.

20     Otherwise, who knows what would have happened had she stayed behind.

21        Q.   On this same page, you say, both in English and Serbian, on --

22     actually:

23             "The attack on Ahatovici started with shelling from 3.00 p.m. on

24     the 29th of May, 1992, and it lasted until 9.00 p.m."

25             Is that right?

Page 12438

 1        A.   On the 29th, it was a Friday, around 3.00 in the afternoon.  The

 2     first tank shell exploded in the upper part of Ahatovici, from the

 3     Rajlovac Barracks, because my house is a bit shielded by a hill, so they

 4     could not hit my house from the Rajlovac Barracks, and that is the truth.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct if I say that almost two months went

 6     by, that is to say, 50 days, from the breaking out of the war in

 7     Sarajevo, and you did not have any conflict with the Serbs around you;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Well, that would be it, roughly.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that you attacked the Serb parts of the

11     local commune on the 29th and that the Serbs responded on the 30th of

12     May?

13        A.   The truth is the exact opposite, sir.

14        Q.   Now we're going to have a look at that, Mr. Mujkic.  This is a

15     piece of news from the 3rd of May.  This is what it says:

16             "On Sunday, the 3rd of May, 1992, at 10.15, a rocket attack

17     started by the Green Berets from the direction of Visoko and Breza.  At

18     the same time, an infantry attack was carried out against the Serbian

19     village of Dobro, and on that occasion eight Serbs were killed."

20             And so on.

21             Are you aware of that?

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Sorry.  Before you answer --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, I mean, the entire war,

24     I cannot deal with all of that.  Your Honours, I don't want questions

25     like this.  This doesn't have to do with my statement.  I don't know

Page 12439

 1     about this, I never mentioned it.  Do you want me to tell you about what

 2     was going on in Pale as well?

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, could I ask the accused to direct us

 4     to the piece of news from the 3rd of May that he's referring to so we can

 5     follow the proceedings?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Given that the citation was not that long, I just

 7     let it go, instead of seeing an untranslated newspaper again.  But you

 8     referred to a newspaper.  If you're going to put a question, do so.  And

 9     if you would like to read out from a document, you have to show that

10     document to the witness.

11             Let's move on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's from a news agency.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   But, Mr. Mujkic, I don't know how much time I have.  I'm just

15     going to say something to you now, and you are free to say whether it's

16     right or wrong or whatever.  No problem whatsoever.

17             This is a piece of news from a news agency.  Since I don't have

18     it translated, I didn't dare to --

19        A.   I would just like to know whether it's written in Cyrillic.

20        Q.   Why does that matter, Mr. Mujkic?

21        A.   Because if it is in Cyrillic, then there is no truth in it.

22        Q.   Ah, I see.  The truth cannot be written in Cyrillic?

23        A.   Well, it can be written in Cyrillic, but not at that time, it

24     wasn't.

25        Q.   Now I'm going to put certain things to you that are part of the

Page 12440

 1     Defence case, and that is legitimate.  So, please, don't get angry.  You

 2     can just say, Yes, No, or, I don't know.

 3             So the local commune of Dobrosevici included the village of

 4     Ahatovici, almost 90 per cent of the population was Muslim, and then

 5     Vojnik, Mihajlevici, and Dobrosevici.  Some of them are purely Serb, and

 6     Dobrosevici is predominantly Serb; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to mention a book now that I cannot tender

 9     yet, written by Vahid Karavelic and Z. Rujanac.  Have you heard of this

10     book written by the two of them?

11        A.   No, I haven't read it.  I wouldn't want to discuss it.  I don't

12     know.  Quite simply, I don't know.

13        Q.   All right.  They wrote -- I don't know what they were doing from

14     the 1st of April onwards, but they said that Ahatovici were of strategic

15     importance for the Muslims because the plan was to link Sarajevo with

16     Central Bosnia via Ahatovici and Visoko.  Yes or no?

17        A.   I wouldn't want to talk about that.  I haven't read the book.

18     And Ahatovici, geographically speaking, is on this corridor towards

19     Visoko.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see that in the summer of 1991, Hasan Cengic

21     often came to Ahatovici, a well-known person from the SDA, one of their

22     top people; then Bakir Alispahic was born in Ahatovici, and who was a

23     high official in the joint police; then Jusuf Pusina, also a high

24     official of the joint police?

25        A.   I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned Alija Izetbegovic as

Page 12441

 1     well, that you didn't say that he came there too.

 2        Q.   Delimustafic did come there.  What about these three?

 3        A.   Your Honours, I said that I was not a member of the Crisis Staff;

 4     that is to say, that people were not coming there for parties.  If people

 5     came, they came to see people who were on the Crisis Staff.  So I cannot

 6     give comments regarding all of this that I did not know about.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  What about the village guards?  Did they function

 8     within your organisation and -- the organisation of your

 9     Territorial Defence, rather, all the way up until the 29th of May, 1992?

10        A.   Yes.  The night patrols, the night guards, yes.

11        Q.   Was fierce fighting underway in Vogosca, Ilidza, Rajlovac --

12     between Rajlovac and Sokolje, and so on, for 50 days, everywhere but in

13     your village?

14        A.   Well, you know that very well, you know that scenario.  You did

15     not have enough strength to do all of it at once.  You took one

16     village -- village by village, Rakovica -- sorry, not Sokolje but Svrake.

17     Right.  Now, we stayed on like this water in this glass.  We were cut off

18     from Sarajevo, and then from Visoko, and we were like this [indicating].

19        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not asking why.  I'm just saying whether it's

20     true that there was no fighting in your village.  Do you remember that

21     Dragomir Cabulja and Rado Kukalovic [phoen], Serbs, were initiators of

22     many meetings between Serbs and Muslims in your local commune from March

23     until the end of May 1992, and that the last meeting of this kind was

24     held at the end of May, 1992?

25        A.   If I were president of the Crisis Staff, I would have known about

Page 12442

 1     that.  This way, I don't know.

 2        Q.   This was a meeting of citizens, sir.  Did you attend it?

 3        A.   No, no, I claim that with full responsibility.

 4        Q.   Now I'm going to tell you.  This meeting was held, and we're

 5     going to get the names of the attendees, but Hasan Mujkic came to the

 6     meeting, though at a later stage, with two escorts.  They were all

 7     wearing camouflage uniforms.  They had automatic weapons.  And he simply

 8     interrupted the meeting, and he asked that joint check-points be

 9     established.  And Stojan Dzino accepted that on the condition that these

10     Muslims are from Bojnik not Ahatovici, those who would stand guard by

11     Bojnik.  Do you know about that?

12        A.   Your Honours, can you free me of all of this?  I mean, really, I

13     am sorry, I am sorry, but, you know, the gentleman is turning this into a

14     party, and this is a court of law.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I told you to put your -- to make your

16     question simple and direct.  You are making -- instead of putting

17     questions, you are just making statements, very lengthy and compound

18     statements, which lead us nowhere.

19             Mr. Mujkic, as an accused for serious charges, the accused is

20     entitled to ask questions.

21             Mr. Gaynor, I remember you rose.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

23             Well, I think the point has been largely covered by Your Honour,

24     except for the observation that the witness has already given evidence

25     that he was not at the meeting, and then the accused went on to recount a

Page 12443

 1     whole lot of things that purportedly happened at the meeting.  So it's --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Correct, Mr. Gaynor.  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We demonstrated that the gentleman

 4     was a member of the Crisis Staff and that he confirmed that himself when

 5     testifying before this Tribunal.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   But, Mr. Mujkic, you say that your civilians, 512 civilians, were

 8     exchanged and went to the city of Sarajevo.  What did the Serbs get in

 9     return for them?

10        A.   Your Honours, in that period I was in the forest with Gacanovic,

11     Huso, who was wounded.  I had no idea whatsoever.  We did not have a

12     radio, we had no idea what was going on.  We were just trying to stay

13     alive.  Now, what the Serbs got in return, I have no idea.

14        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, they didn't get anything, but they let your civilians

15     enter Sarajevo.  And you call that an exchange of civilians.  Can you

16     please tell us any civilians that we got in exchange for those 220

17     civilians?  I don't know of any exchange where you let your civilians

18     enter --

19             JUDGE KWON:  This is your statement, or, rather, an argument with

20     the witness.  The witness said he didn't know whether there was an

21     exchange or not.

22             How much longer do you have for this witness?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, he says "exchange" in

24     his statement.  On several occasions, he says that these civilians were

25     exchanged.  I am not agreeing with the formulation that this was an

Page 12444

 1     exchange of civilians.  There was no exchange.  These were civilians just

 2     allowed to enter Sarajevo.  Mr. Mujkic just says that he doesn't know

 3     that there was an exchange.  He just said that they entered Sarajevo.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, among those 512 civilians,

 5     there was my wife, my mother.  They told me that they were exchanged.

 6     Why, an exchange for whom?  I really don't know.  I cannot answer that.

 7     At the time, I was in the forest.  I had no idea what was going on.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   You spent two months in the forest?

10        A.   And four days.

11        Q.   At the time you were armed, there was a group of you.  Who was in

12     this group?

13        A.   On the 3rd of June, 1992, I found Huso Gacanovic wounded.  He was

14     a young man of 22 at the time.  And I got him into the forest that

15     evening.  We were alone for 11 days, and then on the 12th day I found

16     Asim Novalija, a man who was some 65 or 66 years old at the time.

17     Unfortunately, he died about four years ago.  This was a man who was

18     completely off his mind.  The whole time, he had been living by himself.

19     There was just -- there was just three of us.  There was no group, there

20     were no contacts, no meetings.  We just happened to meet, Asim Novalija

21     and I, and Huso Gacanovic and I.

22        Q.   You had some clashes with Serbs at that time, armed clashes; is

23     that right?

24        A.   That is not true.  I never met anyone.  I was fleeing from even

25     the idea of meeting anyone, because this young man was wounded.  I didn't

Page 12445

 1     want to create any trouble.  I mean, he was there.  What would I do with

 2     him if that happened?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last sentence

 4     the witness said.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did you ever fire?

 7        A.   I did fire a magazine when I was wounded.  I wanted to fire at

 8     myself in order not to be caught alive, captured alive.  However, I

 9     didn't manage to take the magazine out.  I don't know if I got confused

10     or something, but the second magazine remained full.  I did fire when I

11     was wounded.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mujkic, I'm afraid the interpreters might have

14     not heard your last part of your answer, so I read out what you said.  So

15     tell us what is omitted or not.

16             To the question whether:

17             "You had some clashes with Serbs at the time, armed clashes; is

18     that right?"

19             Your answer is recorded as follows:

20             "That is not true.  I never met anyone.  I was fleeing from even

21     the idea of meeting anyone, because this young man was wounded.  I didn't

22     want to create any trouble.  I mean, he was there.  What would I do with

23     him if that happened?"

24             Did you say anything after that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that.  In response to the

Page 12446

 1     question did I fire, I said that I fired when I was wounded.  When I saw

 2     what happened, what was going on in the direction from where we were

 3     being fired at, then I fired back --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- 30 rounds of ammunition.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Well, that was my question.  Did you exchange fire with the

 8     Serbs; that's all?

 9        A.   On the 6th of August, when I was wounded, I did not fire a single

10     bullet after the fall of Ahatovici.

11        Q.   Thank you.  How did you eat those two months, how did you feed

12     yourself?

13        A.   In the forest where I was, and this is my own forest, I felt very

14     safe there.  I knew every single path there.  So at night, I knew,

15     without any hesitation, where I was and where I was supposed to go.

16     Above it in some meadows, there was a weekend house settlement.  It

17     exists today.  All the weekend houses had their front doors broken in to,

18     and the Serbian soldiers who had captured the Bioca settlement spent the

19     night there and then moved forward towards Ahatovici.  Sometime -- at

20     someplace, I would find some oil or a kilogram of sugar, a kilogram of

21     flour in odd places.  But it was such a very good year, in terms of the

22     harvest, that I don't remember any year having such a rich harvest as it

23     was that year.  There was a lot of fruit.  So I didn't suffer from

24     hunger.

25        Q.   What fruit ripens in July, other than cherries?

Page 12447

 1        A.   Well, there were pears, early pears, there were potatoes.  You

 2     know all of that very well.

 3        Q.   And where did you cook that potato?  What did you do with the

 4     flour?  What did you do during those two months?

 5        A.   I took gas canisters -- cylinders from those weekend houses, so

 6     we used that for heating.  There was also a furnace.  We brought that

 7     from one of the weekend houses.  We would bake bread in there, cook some

 8     beans, and then the next day we would just make something more.  It was

 9     summer.  It was easy.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And how did you manage with the water supply?  What

11     did you do for water?

12        A.   There are three natural wells in my forest.  There is a pipe

13     still there that I made then.  And the well was just 10 metres from the

14     tent where we were staying.

15        Q.   Here is a document that they showed you in the Krajisnik case.

16     This was a Prosecution exhibit, P374, and it states that the Green Berets

17     and other Muslims - this is a police report - and other Muslim

18     paramilitary formations attacked a part of Dobrosevici "yesterday," on

19     the 29th of May, and they were pushed back from the school in Dobrosevici

20     and from the Bioca village in the Ilijas municipality, and they were

21     surrounded in Ahatovici, and that the Serbian Army issued an ultimatum.

22     This is 65 ter 2981 -- 65 ter 298, page 1.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's not tendered, can we tender

24     this page, the page that we're looking at right now on the screen?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, page 8 to 9 will be added - I mean the e-court

Page 12448

 1     pages - will be added to the Exhibit D1101.

 2             How much longer do you have, Mr. Karadzic, to conclude?  Your

 3     time is almost up.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must say that this witness said

 5     so many things that I cannot touch upon not even a fifth of it, and

 6     really it's a question of time.  The question of time is placing these

 7     entire proceedings in jeopardy.  I'm convinced of it.  For this witness,

 8     I would need as much as I requested.  I am getting one-third to

 9     one-quarter of the time that I'm asking for.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  You'll have an additional 20 minutes to conclude

12     your cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             May I just say, for the transcript and also for your information,

15     we are not getting all the material in time in order to be able to

16     prepare the translations.  On the other hand, a large number of general

17     statements of all the witnesses are placing us in the situation that we

18     are asking ourselves what it is that we need to dispute first, because

19     the time that we are given in order to present our case is really

20     insufficient.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, can you please look at the second paragraph:

23             "The Green Berets and other Muslim paramilitary formations

24     yesterday attacked, on the 29th ..."

25             And so on.  It says that you attacked the villages of

Page 12449

 1     Bjelovici [phoen], Mihajlovici, and Bjelugovici?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know what it says here, but it's a pure lie.

 3        Q.   Well, this is written in the Roman alphabet, it's not in the

 4     Cyrillic.  It's a police report.  It's not propaganda.  It's a police

 5     report.

 6        A.   A report by whose police?

 7        Q.   Aha, even that's a problem with this.  It's the Serbian police.

 8        A.   Well, sir, you are very familiar with the language of hate that

 9     you, yourself, spoke as well, and these reports are also something that

10     sowed the bone of contention.  The HOS and the Green Berets were

11     bothering you, and they were always mentioned whenever there was an

12     alleged attack that took place.  However, in all reports, in all

13     exhumations there was nobody from the outside, especially not from the

14     HOS, because they have a Croat first and last name.  All of this is pure

15     fabrication.  I don't know how else to describe it other than as lies.

16        Q.   Thank you.  The police is informing their superiors here.  This

17     is not something that is meant for the media.  All I'm asking you is to

18     pay attention to the following thing here.  Does it not state here that

19     an ultimatum was set for the 30th of May, 1992?

20        A.   On the 30th of May, the shelling lasted for 24 hours.  It began

21     on the 29th of May.  Who could have ventured out under the rain of

22     shells?

23        Q.   Just one thing.  Does it not say here that the Serbian Army

24     issued an ultimatum to these paramilitary formations in the village of

25     Ahatovici to hand themselves in "today" by -- does it not say that or

Page 12450

 1     not?

 2        A.   All I know is that the public prosecutor and I threw this out.  I

 3     didn't say that anywhere in my statement.  As for your statements, I'm

 4     not interested in them.

 5        Q.   All right.  Here's your statement.  Can you please look at

 6     paragraph 27.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Whose statement?  The amalgamated statement; yes?

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9        Q.   Paragraph 27:

10             [In English] "I have been shown page -- or paragraph 5 of a

11     document, 65 ter 1698, which states that Tesanovic sought the approval of

12     the president on 30th May, 1992, in order to commence shelling at 18

13     hours.  This is consistent with and must be a reference to the shelling

14     of Ahatovici on 30th May 1992."

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Just so the record is clear, the witness has given

16     evidence, when adopting his statement, that that particular paragraph is

17     the paragraph he wants removed from his statement.  So I'm not suggesting

18     the accused can't cross-examine on it.  I just want to make Your Honours

19     aware it's not in his amalgamated statement as adopted.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for the reminder.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have 65 ter 1698, please.

22             This is a document that states that there was no shelling before

23     1800 hours on the 30th of May, and we can see from this report that the

24     ultimatum was running out at 1800 hours on the 30th of May.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1698 in e-court, please.

Page 12451

 1             And Mr. Gaynor has now given us new evidence of all the things

 2     that you can do with statements.  You can tweak it here and tweak it

 3     there.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Improper statement.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you please look at this.  This is an AID document, a document

 7     of the Muslim Secret Service, official secret, strictly confidential, on

 8     the 18th of October, 1996.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, was this not part of an associated

10     exhibit, Mr. Gaynor?

11             MR. GAYNOR:  The previous document we were looking at is --

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, this one, 1698.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  I informed the Registrar by e-mail this morning that

14     this is not being tendered by the Prosecution as an associated exhibit,

15     because it was part of the paragraph 27 of the amalgamated statement,

16     which is the paragraph not adopted by the witness.  So we're not

17     tendering this particular document as an associated exhibit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 5.  This is a

20     supplementary document that speaks about Tesanovic's intercepts, or it's

21     his journal.  So can we have page 5.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Tesanovic, at 1745:

24             [In English] "Tesanovic asked the president that mortar fire be

25     opened at 1800 hours."

Page 12452

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I am offering this along with

 2     the previous document, the bulletin of events, to the effect that an

 3     ultimatum was set for 1800 hours on the 30th of May, due to the fact that

 4     the Muslims' forces carried out an attack on the 29th of May and that

 5     Tesanovic here is asking for permission to open fire.

 6             Can we have this tendered into evidence?

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  No objection to the admission of this --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  You didn't ask a question to the witness about this

 9     document.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is contrary to what the

11     witness is saying.  I claim that you attacked on the 29th and that the

12     Serbs responded on the 30th.  We see that you dealt with this issue in

13     paragraph 27, and you said that this was consistent with the beginning of

14     shelling.  I'm talking about paragraph 27 of your amalgamated statement,

15     and I would like this to be reintroduced into evidence as a Defence

16     exhibit.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this does not

18     correspond to the truth.  In all my statements, and I said, and I still

19     maintain, that on the Friday, the 29th of May, at 1500 hours, a first

20     tank shell was fired from Rajlovac at Ahatovici, and that heralded a kind

21     of signal for the mortars to start fire.  And each mortar had a cluster

22     of houses in their sites.  There was not a single place in Ahatovici

23     where shells didn't land.  As for this report, somebody wrote it to suit

24     their needs.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 12453

 1        Q.   During those 24 hours of shelling, how many people died?

 2        A.   Thank God, only two.  We were lucky, because those were initial

 3     fightings in 1992 and the crews serving mortars didn't have much

 4     experience.  Had it been in 1993, the number of casualties would have

 5     been higher.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that we have grounds to

 7     admit this, because once he accepted this and --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 9     questions and answers.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can safely move on.

11             Mr. Gaynor, did you want to say -- raise something?

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Simply to point out that we did, in fact, initially

13     tender this.  So if the accused wishes to have this admitted, we don't

14     oppose that, but we'll leave it in the Court's hands.

15             JUDGE KWON:  How about -- yes, in order to understand the context

16     of this witness's evidence, I think we can -- we should admit this.  How

17     about admitting page 1 and page 5 of this document?  This is a document

18     of page -- a document of 41 pages --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  -- and that first we admit the first page and

21     page 5.  We'll give the number.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  D1106, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You have 10 minutes.  Nine minutes, actually,

25     Mr. Karadzic.

Page 12454

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, you saw, during your stay in the woods as a fighter,

 3     which is basically highly esteemed by the Serbs, you saw that in the

 4     village of Gornja Bioca, the Serbs released women and children and even

 5     one man to go and milk the cows and deal with the horses and things like

 6     that; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  That was on the 31st of May or on the 1st of June.  I don't

 8     know the date at the moment.  I saw this man who was a relative of mine.

 9     I say "was" because he was exhumed from a mass grave in Ilijas

10     municipality.  But that was it.  Nobody else was allowed to leave the

11     school, and the rest were taken to Planjo's house, where I was taken on

12     the 2nd of September.

13        Q.   Let's stay with the civilians.  The civilians were inside the

14     school, and you didn't see them being guarded by soldiers; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Your Honours, the school -- the elementary school is in

17     Donja Bioca.  As for Gornja Bioca, it's a village which is close to our

18     village.  It's on the border between Ilijas and Novi Grad municipalities.

19     There was no way for me to go to the school, because I would have to go

20     through open spaces.  I only went to Gornja Bioca, and I saw those people

21     there.  I saw a woman milking a cow, and I saw a man taking a horse out.

22     After that, I went back to Ahatovici, and I don't know who actually was

23     in the school in Bioca.  I think I didn't mention that anywhere.

24        Q.   This is what you said in the Krajisnik case on 3rd of November,

25     page 7946, when you said that women freely went out to milk the cows and

Page 12455

 1     that there was a man who went out to release a horse.

 2             Mr. Mujkic, my proposition is that the civilians were provided

 3     shelter in Gornja Bioca, they were not detained, and then were released

 4     on the 13th of June, and they went to Sarajevo.  Do you have any proof to

 5     the contrary?

 6        A.   As for the school in Bioca, I didn't mention it, I don't want to

 7     talk about it because I don't know anything about it.  As for this

 8     exchange near the petrol station in which my mother and my wife were

 9     involved, I didn't know what was happening at the time.  I only heard

10     about it later.  That's it.

11        Q.   In Bratunac -- in Ahatovici, you had fighters from Bratunac as

12     well; is that correct?

13        A.   Those were not fighters.  Those were exchanged prisoners from

14     Pale, and they came to Visoko.  They had families in Sarajevo, and on

15     their way, they reached Ahatovici.  However, they couldn't proceed across

16     the River Bosna.  There were six of them all together from Bratunac.

17     This is what I said, and this is the truth.  And you like to call them

18     the Green Berets and so on and so forth.

19        Q.   But you said that there were 12 of them, or even that 12 people

20     from Bratunac were killed.

21             Now, look at your statement or your evidence in the Krajisnik

22     case of the 3rd of November, 2004, page 7990.

23             Were you afraid for those people who were captured by the Serbian

24     Army for the second time, and that you were afraid that something bad

25     would happen to them, contrary to the Geneva Conventions?

Page 12456

 1        A.   Well, you know that the Geneva Conventions provided protection

 2     for a lot of people.

 3        Q.   Is this what you said, that you feared for their lives because

 4     they were captured for the second time?

 5        A.   I didn't say that.  I just feared for my family.  They were

 6     afraid because they were captured for the second time.  I had no reason

 7     to be afraid, my dear sir.  I was only afraid for my family.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the fact that we captured the

 9     exchanged Muslim fighters several times was the reason for me to send

10     them to third countries instead of recapturing them over and over again?

11        A.   If I didn't know you as a blood-thirsty tiger from TV, I would

12     just think now that you'd like to portray yourself as a lamb.

13        Q.   I'm going to disregard this remark.

14        A.   You don't like to hear the truth, but you know that very well.

15        Q.   What was your personal experience with me?  Did you know me, did

16     we meet?

17        A.   No, but I see the killer of my son in you.  All the bloodshed in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina was the result of your three objectives:  Number 1, to

19     preserve the rump Yugoslavia; the second objective, to create a Greater

20     Serbia; and, thirdly, to create a Serbian republic.  So everything was to

21     accommodate Serbs alone, and all the blood was shed for the sake of all

22     those objectives of yours.

23        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, do you realise that the crisis was generated because

24     of an attempt to have Bosnia-Herzegovina secede, contrary to the will of

25     the Serbian people?

Page 12457

 1        A.   I was listening about this on television, but you know that I was

 2     not with Izetbegovic, which would allow me to know certain things that

 3     you are imputing now.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 1D3339.

 5     This is a proclamation to the Muslim people of the 12th of June, 1992.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So you know nothing about Mr. Izetbegovic, and you know

 8     everything about myself?

 9        A.   Well, our people say, Do not speak ill of the dead.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I apologise for this

11     not being translated, because we are really receiving lots of material at

12     the 11th hour.  We received some material for the witness who's going to

13     be examined on Monday.

14             So we have here the news agency "SRNA," the 12th of June.  Can we

15     look at page 3 of this document.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's time to come to your last

17     question.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is the penultimate question:  Sir, can you look at this?  It

20     is, admittedly, in Cyrillic, but I'm addressing the Muslim population by

21     saying that:

22             "In our common fatherland, a brutal war is being waged which has

23     claimed thousands of lives and destroyed a lot of material assets.  There

24     are very few peoples in the world who depended on one another so much.

25     Our history is the same.  We have one-and-the-same country that we cannot

Page 12458

 1     leave.  We have no other place to go.  Even if we wanted to do that,

 2     nobody would want us, either you or us.  We speak the same language, and

 3     we may call it whatever we want, but that must not be the reason for us

 4     to fight.  We pray to God in different ways, that is true, but that also

 5     mustn't be a reason for conflict."

 6        A.   Sir, Your Honours, may I ask him a question?

 7        Q.   No, no, sir, you cannot.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   My penultimate question is:  Mr. Mujkic, do you know that we did

11     our best to avoid the war, except to accept a single Bosnia dominated by

12     the Muslims?

13        A.   I don't know about that, but I watched you when you said in the

14     Assembly of BH that if war broke out in our territory, the Muslim people

15     would become exterminated.  I thought that you wanted to cite that as one

16     of your smart and wise instructions to the Muslims.

17        Q.   That was an antiwar speech, and I begged them not to enter the

18     war.

19             My last question:  You saw the mosque in Ahatovici, and it was

20     demolished?  You visited the site, and you saw all the places -- all the

21     pieces strewn around?

22        A.   Unfortunately, I was the first to reach the site of the

23     demolished mosque.  That was on the fourth or fifth day of the shelling.

24     I had been in the wood with this man.  That was such a strong detonation,

25     and I said the mosque was blown out.  When we arrived there, I saw that

Page 12459

 1     the minaret was gone.  And when the darkness fell, I went down there,

 2     and, unfortunately, that is the truth, sir --

 3        Q.   You said that there were pieces everywhere around, the rubble.

 4     Where were they?

 5        A.   One hundred metres from the mosque, there was a beam embedded in

 6     the ground.  And as for roof tiles and bricks, were all around that no

 7     one could go nearer than 50 metres.  Since even the foundations were

 8     deformed, you can only imagine how powerful that detonation was.

 9        Q.   Mr. Mujkic, you exactly described an inside explosion.  No one

10     would be foolish enough to spend so much ammunition and explosive to blow

11     up a mosque.  This is what happens when you store explosives inside.

12             Is this how it exploded?  You were storing explosive devices

13     inside?

14        A.   A minute ago, I said that the truth is an equation with lots of

15     unknown to you.

16        Q.   Just tell me that.  We can easily prove that.

17        A.   No, no, that's not true.  There was no soldiers -- there were no

18     soldiers in the mosque.  You cannot imagine that.  Only you can claim

19     such a thing.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say that I regret the

21     fact that I didn't have time to question this witness completely.  There

22     are lots of statements --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if necessary, I'm

24     willing to stay for another month, and I'm going to reiterate everything

25     that I said today, because this is my life's story.

Page 12460

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mujkic.

 2             Mr. Gaynor, if you can finish in 10 or 15 minutes, your redirect,

 3     then we can go on.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Certainly, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Okay.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 8        Q.   First of all, I would like to clarify one thing with you,

 9     Mr. Witness, and it concerns the soldiers who you saw at the village of

10     Gornja Bioca.

11             You gave evidence earlier today that you could hear, from their

12     accent, that they were from Serbia; is that right?

13        A.   I said that they were Serb soldiers.  I did not say that they

14     were from Serbia.  It was night-time.  I was sent to get help from

15     Visoko.  That is the information that we received.  I thought it was then

16     because I heard commotion.  But at any rate, I was in the bushes, hiding,

17     and he was passing by me.  According to the accent, I realised that it

18     wasn't our people, and then I was panic-stricken.  I didn't go any

19     further.  I waited for daybreak.  Just before dawn, I arrived in

20     Donja Bioca.  I saw what I saw.

21             As for the weekend cottages, in every one of them you could hear

22     the clamour of people.  It was actually -- it was soldiers that had taken

23     Bioca.  They spent the night there, and then they went further on in the

24     morning.

25        Q.   And your attention was drawn to a reference you made in your

Page 12461

 1     evidence in the Krajisnik case, where you referred to the units of the

 2     Ilijas municipality.  Do you remember that?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, these Serb soldiers were there from the

 4     municipality of Ilijas, but that is to the north, as far as we are

 5     concerned, and the prison was in Ahatovici.  I showed you this glass.  We

 6     were like this water in this glass.

 7        Q.   So is it your evidence that there were soldiers from the -- Serb

 8     soldiers from the municipality of Ilijas and Serb soldiers from

 9     elsewhere?  Is that right?

10        A.   Sir, I am telling you now that it was night-time, and I realised,

11     by the way they pronounced the letter H and the way they spoke in

12     general, what their accent was, I realised that they were Serb soldiers.

13     And I couldn't just walk out there and say, Where are you from?  I would

14     have been shot.  But, at any rate, it was forces that arrived from

15     Ilijas.

16        Q.   I want to ask you one or two questions about your -- about a

17     visit you went to -- to Planjo's house with an investigator you think was

18     from Australia.  You said this at page 22 of today's transcript.  And the

19     Presiding Judge asked you a bit more about when that was.  You said you

20     thought it might be in 2004, it was summertime, it was very hot.  Do you

21     remember that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, did you, with that investigator, visit places other than

24     Planjo's house on that occasion?

25        A.   We went to Sokolje, where this massacre was committed.  This

Page 12462

 1     bus -- these people from Ahatovici were killed.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I call up 65 ter number 22189.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Mujkic, this is only in English, but I can read part of

 4     it to you.  Actually, no, we see now there is a translation.  If we can

 5     keep the translation on the left.

 6             In any event, it says:

 7             "On 4th of July, 2004, together with Trial Attorney

 8     Magde Karagiannakis and Interpreter Darko Bartula, I spoke with ..."

 9             And it gives your name, Ramiz Mujkic.  It then says:

10             "Mujkic then took us to various locations as indicated below.

11     Digital photographs were taken at each of these locations by myself.

12     Mujkic explained what these places were."

13             Now, if we can turn to, please, page 14 of this document, and

14     zoom in at the photograph at the top of page 14, please.

15             Are you able to see that photograph at the top there?

16        A.   If you're asking me, yes, I do see it.

17        Q.   I am.  Can you tell us who --

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Do you recognise yourself in that photograph?

20        A.   Yes, it's me on the photograph up here.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Can we just go to the final page of that document,

22     please.  And if we could look at the photograph on the second half of the

23     page and rotate it 90 degrees, Mr. Registrar, please.  Zoom in on that

24     photograph, please.

25        Q.   What is that building, Mr. Mujkic?

Page 12463

 1        A.   This building is Planjo's house, where I spent two months and

 2     five days along with the other prisoners.

 3        Q.   Did you visit that location with the Australian investigator?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  I think that he took the picture.

 5        Q.   And you described to that investigator some of the things that

 6     took place in that house; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.  I wish to God I had never seen this, but I did.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, please, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2343, Your Honours.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  The final point, if we could call up a map, please.

12     It's P2327.

13        Q.   What's coming up now, and Mr. Mujkic, it's an exhibit which has

14     been admitted, and it is, I believe, a map that you prepared prior to

15     your testimony in the Krajisnik case.  I should say that you placed

16     stickers on this map prior to your testimony in that case.  I'd just like

17     you to confirm that.

18             If we can move to the second page of this.  If we can just focus

19     in on where all the red stickers are towards the second -- the lower part

20     of the map.

21             In the legend you've provided with this map, Mr. Mujkic, you say

22     that number 10 marks the house of Momcilo Krajisnik.  Could you confirm

23     that?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   Now, was Mirko Krajisnik from this area or was he from a

Page 12464

 1     different area?

 2        A.   They had a very big house and also an old house where their

 3     parents were.  I think that Mirko and Momcilo built this enormous house

 4     together.

 5        Q.   The stickers marked 3, 4, and 5 are in and around the village of

 6     Ahatovici; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  This is a hamlet of Ahatovici.

 8        Q.   About how far was the Krajisnik house from the hamlet of

 9     Ahatovici?

10        A.   As the crow flies, it wasn't more than two or three kilometres.

11     However, since the terrain is hilly, and you see the zigzag of all the

12     roads, it was six kilometres from Ahatovici to Rajlovac.  And as for

13     Zabrdje, if you take into account that Rajlovac is up there, then it's

14     about six or seven kilometres if you take the road.  As the crow flies,

15     two or three kilometres.

16        Q.   How many years had you known Mirko Krajisnik before 1992?

17        A.   Well, let me tell you.  All of this is a single area.  I mean,

18     now, if you were to pin-point the centre, it's a circle with a diametre

19     of three kilometres, or six if you were to put the centre right in the

20     middle of this picture.  All of these people knew each other.  We would

21     see each other on buses and wherever in the 1970s 1980s, and the last

22     time we sat next to each other I sat between the father, and Momcilo and

23     father -- and Mirko was on the other side of the father sometime in 1991,

24     or the beginning of May, at the funeral of a relative of theirs.

25        Q.   Approximately how long have you known Mirko Krajisnik?

Page 12465

 1        A.   I've known Mirko Krajisnik since I was 44 -- since I was 20,

 2     actually.  It not that we had any transactions or any business to

 3     conduct, but it was sort of, Hello, neighbour, Hello, and that was it.

 4        Q.   Now, you've given evidence to the Trial Chamber that you saw

 5     Mirko Krajisnik in Rajlovac Barracks on the 7th of August, 1992.  Do you

 6     recall that?

 7        A.   You said "Ahatovici"?  Yes.

 8        Q.   No.  My question was - I should have said it more slowly - you've

 9     given evidence to the Trial Chamber that you saw Mirko Krajisnik in the

10     Rajlovac Barracks on the 7th of August, 1992?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honours, that's what I said, and I stand by that.

12        Q.   How much time did you have to observe him on that occasion?

13        A.   A minute was like a year for me then, because my leg was

14     fractured, my jaw was broken.  Nobody even looked at my wounds.  But they

15     stayed for not longer than five minutes, because I couldn't talk.  Then

16     Nikola Poplasen said to Vlasto Apostolovski, Give him some pen and paper,

17     he is literate.  I can see that, judging by his face.  Let him write all

18     of this up nicely, and then you're going to submit it to me.  And then

19     they walked out of the room.

20        Q.   Is there any doubt in your mind that that was Mirko Krajisnik on

21     that morning, the 7th of August, 1992?

22        A.   No doubt whatsoever.  That is the truth and nothing but the

23     truth.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  No further questions, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mujkic.  That concludes your

Page 12466

 1     evidence.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, just one question that is

 3     not based on the redirect?  Actually, the bus was never mentioned during

 4     the cross-examination, whereas the learned Mr. Gaynor did bring it up

 5     during his redirect.  I did not deal with the bus.  That was just that

 6     one question.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not a question.  He was able -- the

 8     proofing was raised during the cross-examination, so it is legitimate and

 9     the Prosecution is entitled to deal with that, the proofing issue, and

10     the on-site visit.

11             That concludes your evidence, Mr. Mujkic.  I apologise again for

12     being interposed by a witness, and I appreciate your understanding very

13     much.  On behalf of the Tribunal and the Chamber, I would like to thank

14     you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

15     Please have a safe journey back home.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  And I will

17     always respond to any call from this Tribunal because I think that the

18     truth should be known.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just taking this opportunity, there is one ruling to

22     give at this moment.  It's related to the Prosecution's submission

23     concerning the Trial Chamber's decision on Prosecution's submission and

24     request in relation to outstanding exhibit issues, filed on 28th of

25     January this year.

Page 12467

 1             The Chamber considers that it is appropriate to admit

 2     Exhibit P51, under seal, and its public version after the original

 3     attestation documentation is submitted to the Chamber.  In this respect,

 4     the Chamber is not deciding on the submission until the Prosecution

 5     submits the original documentation, which should happen as soon as

 6     possible.

 7             So we'll break for about half an hour and resume at quarter past.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10                           --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Good evening, Mr. Witness.

12             If you could take the solemn declaration.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.

14             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

15     and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  KDZ020

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Please make yourself comfortable.

20             Good evening, Ms. Edgerton.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Good evening, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  It's now your witness.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

24                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, perhaps you could confirm a few things to us.

Page 12468

 1             You've given statements and information to the Office of the

 2     Prosecutor here at this Tribunal in 1998, 2005, and 2007; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   And you've testified here as well on two previous occasions, once

 5     in the trial of Momcilo Krajisnik in 2005 and very recently, in 2010, in

 6     the trial of Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin; also correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   Now, earlier this month, did you have read to you, in your own

 9     language, a further statement amalgamating evidence -- pardon me,

10     amalgamating elements of the evidence you've previously given?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If I asked you the same questions today that gave rise to that --

13     the evidence contained in that amalgamated statement, would you have the

14     same answers?

15        A.   Exactly the same, exactly the same.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, that amalgamated statement is 65 ter

17     number 90226.  Could that be a Prosecution exhibit, please, under seal?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2344, under seal, Your Honours.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

21             I'll now read a summary of this witness's evidence, his written

22     evidence.

23             This witness provides background to the geographic, economic,

24     military, political, and ethnic make-up of the municipality of Vogosca,

25     and identifies significant personalities involved in a number of those

Page 12469

 1     areas.  He gives evidence about his relationship -- pardon me.  He gives

 2     evidence about his relationship and conversations with those

 3     personalities.  He explains how these areas were all affected in the

 4     period leading up to the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He talks the

 5     formation of a Bosnian Serb crisis staff in Vogosca as early as September

 6     1991, led by Jovan Tintor.

 7             The witness is also familiar with and explains the structure and

 8     function of the offices and personnel of the Ministry of Interior of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina, particularly in Vogosca municipality.  He

10     discusses SDS efforts to influence staff appointments in the local police

11     forces, particularly in the late summer and early fall of 1991.  He

12     comments on and authenticates a number of intercepted telephone

13     conversations on those and other issues and incidents.

14             The witness speaks about the distribution of weapons from

15     Semizovac Barracks to Serbs in Vogosca municipality.  In January 1992, he

16     observed military trucks which had come from the barracks towing cannons

17     in the direction of Paljevo.  He was told these were for the Serb

18     Territorial Defence.

19             A local SDS leader, Rajko Koprivica, said, Why do you care?  This

20     is Serb business, it's none of your business, because you will disappear

21     anyway.

22             The witness discusses the breakdown of local municipal

23     authorities with the SDS walk-out from the Municipal Assembly.

24             On more than one occasion, he was told by local SDS leaders that

25     Muslims were going to disappear, that they would be destroyed if they

Page 12470

 1     don't leave voluntarily.

 2             The witness talks in detail about the ethnic separation of the

 3     police forces in Vogosca.

 4             The witness gives evidence about the deteriorating safety and

 5     security situation in the municipality and the rise in incidents of

 6     ethnically-based violence, including an armed attack on the Vogosca

 7     Police Station carried out by Bosnian Serb forces.

 8             Finally, he relates his information about the situation in

 9     Vogosca during the conflict, which he received from local Muslims who had

10     been exchanged or otherwise left Vogosca.  From these contacts, he

11     learned of the detention and mistreatment of the Muslim population at

12     three facilities referred to as Kontiki, the bunker, and Planjo's house.

13             And that's the summary of the written evidence.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I have only a few brief questions for you, and

15     they're actually by way of clarification of the chronology of certain

16     events in your written evidence that's just been filed.  And in that

17     regard, I'll start by referring you to paragraph 59 of your written

18     evidence, where you said that in March 1992, SDS delegates walked out of

19     a Municipal Assembly session, saying that they were going to organise a

20     Serb municipality of Vogosca.  And then at paragraph 71, you said that

21     the last session of the Vogosca Municipal Assembly took place in early

22     April 1992.

23             So my question here is:  By this, can we take that the

24     Municipal Assembly continued to meet following the SDS walk-out?

25        A.   Yes, your assumption is correct.  The Municipal Assembly had 51

Page 12471

 1     delegates or representatives.  Eighteen deputies were from the SDA, 15

 2     from the SDS, and 18 were the opposition forces.  As the SDS walked out,

 3     the Assembly continued to function normally, since there were 18 deputies

 4     from the SDA and 18 deputies from the opposition.  So there was a

 5     two-third majority, and even more than that, and it could, therefore,

 6     reach decisions properly.  After the walk-out of the SDS delegates and

 7     after the Serb municipality in Vogosca was established, that's what

 8     happened.

 9        Q.   Now, just to follow on with this line of questioning, in terms of

10     the chronology of events:  At paragraph 64 of your written evidence, you

11     referred to a dispatch from Momcilo Mandic, dated 31 March 1992.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  And for the record, that's P01116.

13        Q.   And perhaps you could just clarify:  Did the withdrawal from the

14     Joint Assembly happen before or after the date of this document?

15        A.   I think -- or, rather, it's not that I think; I know.  It

16     happened the week when the dispatch from Momcilo Mandic arrived.  The

17     week after the dispatch arrived, actually.

18        Q.   And in your statement, at paragraph 68 to 69, you referred to the

19     attack on the police station by Bosnian Serb forces.  How long --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you recall whether that happened before or after the date of

22     this document, before or after March 31st, 1992?

23        A.   Yes, I certainly remember that.  I'll never forget that day.

24     That was after Momcilo Mandic's dispatch.  This attack took place after

25     Momcilo Mandic's dispatch.

Page 12472

 1        Q.   Were the police forces in Vogosca separated at the time of this

 2     attack?

 3        A.   After the dispatch arrived from Momcilo Mandic, assistant

 4     minister, which explicitly ordered that a Serb MUP be established, that

 5     the existing Muslim -- or, rather, that the Muslims and Croats who were

 6     there be subordinated to the Serb MUP, we held a meeting at the station.

 7     And at that meeting, we reached a few important decisions.  The most

 8     important one was that until further notice, we would remain in the

 9     station and work together, as much as we could, in order to prevent

10     bloodshed, but we should stay at the station.  In fact, the station had

11     not been divided, but, de jure, it was actually divided, because Serbs

12     listened to Serbs, Croats listened to Croats, and Muslims to Muslims.

13        Q.   At the time of this attack, had the police forces in Vogosca

14     physically separated?  Had the forces split into different buildings, for

15     example?

16        A.   No, no, they were not physically split.  We worked in the same

17     building, in the same offices.  When anything happened, any kind of

18     incident, we went out together, and we fought against crime together.

19     Serbs, Bosniaks, Muslims, Croats, all of us were together at the police

20     station, and also during the attack against the police station that was

21     organised by Boro Radic.

22        Q.   What happened after the attack?  Did the police forces continue

23     to occupy the same building?

24        A.   Yes.  Even after the attack, when we returned to the station, it

25     was both Serbs and Bosniaks who returned.  We continued to work together

Page 12473

 1     at the station.

 2        Q.   Until what time?

 3        A.   Approximately for another two or three weeks, we worked together,

 4     and then there was this physical separation.

 5        Q.   And at what point -- thank you.

 6             Now, on the subject of the attack on the police station -- and,

 7     Your Honour, for this question, could we please go into private session?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12474

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             I take it you are minded to tender the associated exhibits.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             There are, obviously, a couple on this list that have been

 8     previously tendered, but P01116, being one of them, and P00045 being the

 9     other one.  I'm minded to tender the rest, if I may, Your Honour, noting,

10     of course, that a large number of them are intercepts, and I would ask

11     that they be marked for identification.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             We have an objection to that with respect to intercepts.

14             And if you look at the amalgamated statement and compare them to

15     what's being offered, you see that there's very little information

16     offered about the intercept in the amalgamated statement, apart from the

17     fact that he recognises the voices, in some cases, or in some cases he

18     provides very little information; that they're talking about Sarajevo or

19     they're talking about an individual.  And we don't think that that small

20     information is sufficient enough to warrant the admission of the

21     intercept for all purposes.  It's useful to help the Prosecution show the

22     reliability of the intercept.  Later, when they bring a witness, it may

23     be that you will want to admit that.  But on the basis of someone simply

24     saying that I recognise those voices, I don't think the content of the

25     intercept should be received by the Chamber.

Page 12475

 1             Also, four of these intercepts involve Mr. Mandic, and we think

 2     it's very unfair for the Prosecution to not have offered those intercepts

 3     during his testimony, and now, when there's no more ability for

 4     confrontation, to admit them at this stage.  So we object to those on

 5     separate grounds, in addition to the fact that the witness doesn't really

 6     provide any information about them.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, with respect to the first objection,

10     Your Honour, I did not ask for the intercepts to be admitted for all

11     purposes.  I asked them to be marked for further identification.  And,

12     frankly, the nature of the information that the witness offered with

13     respect to each of those intercepts, which, at a minimum, was the

14     recognition of the voices on the basis of his personal experience with

15     the interlocutors, is indeed a factor that would warrant their admission

16     for -- their admission to be further authenticated at a later time.

17             With respect to the second ground, since Mr. Tieger is behind me

18     and he dealt with the evidence of Mr. Mandic, perhaps he would like to

19     rise on that point.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Just as a matter of practicality, Your Honour, the

21     Court is well aware of the time that was taken with Mr. Mandic's

22     examination.  It is a practical impossibility to confront witnesses of

23     that nature with each and every document that they're associated with,

24     that they produced, or with each and every intercept.  In fact, a great

25     deal of information was presented through Mr. Mandic.  I would suggest we

Page 12476

 1     would have been here for a remarkably inefficient length of time if the

 2     issue of confrontation was expanded to those lengths, so I don't think

 3     that's -- the Court, in a case of this magnitude, hears evidence from

 4     many sources at many times and comes to a decision based on the totality

 5     of the evidence, and is fully capable of placing that evidence in

 6     context.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  For myself, I didn't bring the note --

 8     the list with my note to the courtroom, so I'm not in the position to

 9     deal with it.  We'll give our ruling tomorrow -- Monday morning.

10             In the meantime, then, are you prepared to start, Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, first of all, we were

12     notified yesterday that this witness would testify on the 28th.  The

13     other thing is that Madam Edgerton questioned the witness for a shorter

14     period of time than was announced, so we're not really prepared to begin

15     right now.

16             So in view of all of this and in view of my state of exhaustion

17     because of my cross-examination that went on earlier, I think that the

18     best course of action would be for us to begin on Monday.

19             The notification is D467 from yesterday.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any observation, Ms. Edgerton?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, Dr. Karadzic may not have

22     understood, but that notification was with respect to our list of

23     witnesses for the coming week and merely indicated that we expected this

24     witness's testimony would carry over until Monday.  He has always been

25     notified for this week, so I'm quite certain that Dr. Karadzic

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 1     misunderstood.

 2             And with respect to the period of time that was announced, I only

 3     asked for half an hour in the first place, Your Honour, and I've been 15

 4     minutes, so I don't think that that's a very long time.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It's a matter of 20 minutes.  We'll rise for today.

 7             Mr. Witness, the hearing will be adjourned for this week, and

 8     we'll resume on Monday next week at 9.00.  Please have a nice weekend.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and you too.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.41 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of

13                           February, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.