110301ED

Page 12606

1 Tuesday, 1 March 2011

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.

7 Now we are back to Courtroom I.

8 Today, we are sitting in the absence of Judge Flavia Lattanzi,

9 who is indisposed today. I hope she will recover very soon.

10 Good morning, Mr. Witness.

11 WITNESS: KDZ020 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, let's conclude your cross-examination

14 in 40 minutes' time.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. Good

16 morning to everyone.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Good morning, sir.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. In order to be fair to you, yesterday you mentioned Renovica. Is

22 it the Renovica who had a moustache and who was in the State Security in

23 the old system as well, so he's an old professional operative?

24 A. I'm thinking of Mile Renovica, who was the chief of the State

25 Security Service for Vogosca and Ilijas. He did have a moustache. I

Page 12607

1 don't know how long he was employed in the service.

2 Q. And was he introduced by the Serbian Democratic Party after the

3 1990s or was he in the service before that?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. In order to be fair to you, if this is an old cadre, then I did

6 recall him, and you are correct. But I thought that you were thinking of

7 a cadre of the Serbian Democratic Party, and there was no such person.

8 All right. Can you please tell us if you know what happened on

9 the 4th of May in Kotonje and after that in Vlahovici?

10 A. I don't know what you're specifically thinking of.

11 Q. On the 4th of May, did the -- were the Serbs in Kotonje attacked

12 as a minority community, and that many of them fled to Grahoviste, and

13 that they were captured and intercepted in Grahoviste and then later

14 killed? That was the group that was killed later?

15 A. Well, you put a number of questions and assertions here. Serbs

16 in Kotonje were not a minority community, absolutely not, because there

17 was a significant number of Serbs in Kotonje who lived there and worked

18 there. I'm not aware that they were attacked on the 4th of May, and I'm

19 not aware that they fled from Kotonje to Grahoviste. It wasn't logical

20 for somebody, even if they were attacked, had a need to escape from

21 Kotonje to Grahoviste. It would have been logical if they had a need to

22 escape from Kotonje somewhere. Then it would have made sense to flee

23 towards the centre of Vogosca, to that area, because the Serbs were

24 already in power there.

25 Q. If they had to pass by an armed group or something, I would agree

Page 12608

1 with that.

2 But let us now look at 1D3341 in the e-court. I believe that

3 there is a translation.

4 This is an announcement by the Crisis Staff of the Municipal

5 Assembly of Vogosca, and states that in relation to the arrests of nine

6 ethnic Serbs at Grahoviste on the 3rd and 4th of May, it is again

7 informing the public about certain details of the arrests.

8 I would like to ask that this page not be broadcast.

9 It states:

10 "One day before the arrests took place, Hamdija Ackar, a

11 well-known grocer from Kobilja Glava had arrived in Grahoviste ..."

12 Do you know this Hamdija Ackar?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. " ... and started ensuring inhabitants that there was no reason

15 to be afraid of Muslims. However, he advised them not to separate, and

16 if they had any weapons, not to fire. They spoke merrily, and then

17 immediately after he left, the -- right after he had left, Green Berets

18 came from the direction of the Salatovic [phoen] houses, with rifles

19 pointed at the people, and took away 11 men. They had been taken through

20 the woods to Barice."

21 Is this village of Barice close to Vogosca?

22 A. The village of Barice is between Kotonje and Ugorsko, and it's

23 part of the Vogosca municipality territory. So if you're going from the

24 direction of Kobilja Glava, you have Kobilja Glava, Hotonj, Glavica,

25 Ugorsko, and Vogosca as a populated area.

Page 12609

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Could all parties please look at this. And then after that, I

3 would like to look at page 2 in the Serbian. I believe that it's also

4 page 2 in the English, and I would kindly ask that the document not be

5 broadcast. I'm not going to be reading it out loud. Page 2 of both

6 versions, please.

7 You can see that it states here "Haris Trnka; Cutura, Murat," and

8 so on. I'm not going to be reading the names, so please can everybody

9 look at the second paragraph on this page.

10 How is it possible that neighbours who -- no. Well, up in the

11 previous area, it says when they had arrived in Busci, Obren Sikiras and

12 Mile Palija were released, thanks to certain local Muslims, while the

13 other 9 were stripped naked and taken away. And then it says that the

14 neighbours did see and know who did that. Do you see these names?

15 A. Well, it doesn't say that in the Bosnian, but I do understand.

16 I can see the Cyrillic writing, and I can see the names.

17 Q. Would you like to read it in the English? If you cannot read it

18 in this Bosnian that doesn't exist, perhaps you can read it in English.

19 Perhaps it would be easier for you.

20 A. I would kindly ask you not to insult me. The language I speak is

21 called Bosnian. I'm a Bosniak by ethnicity, I'm a Muslim by faith, and

22 yesterday you referred to my ethnic group by its religious name. If you

23 would like to be fair until the end, I would like you to use the official

24 terms. I speak the Bosnian language. I understand the language that you

25 speak. By ethnicity, I'm a Bosniak, and I'm a Muslim by faith. I don't

Page 12610

1 want to be insulted here.

2 Q. Sir, you are possessing the -- laying claim on the language.

3 It's actually the Serbian language. You called yourselves Muslims and

4 Bosniaks, and you would be upset if you were referred to as something

5 else.

6 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, trading insults with the witness

7 is not only wasting your time, it's wasting the whole of the Court's

8 time. Now, please just carry on and ask specific questions relating to

9 the indictment.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree completely. I shouldn't

11 have been caught on his hook.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. But, anyway, since you read in English -- you can read English,

14 do you see these three names here, sir?

15 A. Yes, I see all three of the names.

16 Q. Do you know these people?

17 A. Yes, I know each of these three people.

18 Q. Are you trying to say that these families were mistaken and they

19 don't know who took away their relatives?

20 A. How do you know what I want to say? Yesterday, you asked me,

21 too, about this event, you put questions to me about it, and I said that

22 in this instance, I didn't participate in any way in this incident, and

23 that I am prepared before any court in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the world,

24 or before an international court, to reply to questions on this incident.

25 In this incident, I had no part in it, I had nothing to do with it.

Page 12611

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Can we tender this document?

3 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Well, while the witness did offer something with

5 respect to name recognition of some of the individuals involved, he

6 flatly denied any involvement in the incident that's brought out in the

7 document, Your Honours, so --

8 JUDGE KWON: How about the incident, itself?

9 MS. EDGERTON: As regards the incident, Your Honour, I'm not

10 accepting and we're not prepared to accept that it took place in any way

11 that was depicted in this document. I also don't find the incident to be

12 at all relevant.

13 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to reply, Mr. Karadzic?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson is going to reply.

15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.

16 Well, first of all, we think that the witness's answers without

17 the document wouldn't have that much context, and this is a situation

18 where the document provides sufficient context for his answers that it

19 should be admitted.

20 And while it is true that he has denied the allegations about

21 himself in the document, I think it would be unfortunate if the Chamber

22 didn't receive a document simply -- that's so relevant to a witness and

23 to their credibility simply because the witness denied parts of its

24 contents. So I think there's sufficient elements within the witness's

25 answer to admit the document.

Page 12612

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. In order to understand the context of the

3 witness's evidence, we admit this. Give the Defence exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1110, under seal, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Can we now have 1D3326, please. And can this document also not

8 be broadcast, please. I don't know if we have a translation, but the

9 date is the 12th of May. All right, we do have a translation.

10 Can we now look at page 4, please. In the Serbian, it's at the

11 top, in the right-hand column:

12 "According to eye-witnesses, Serbs and Muslims arrived ..."

13 And so on and so forth.

14 Can you look at that, please. In the English, it's page 6, but,

15 yes, we have it:

16 "According to the Serbian Muslim eye-witnesses ..."

17 And it says here -- actually, it repeats the same thing and says

18 that they were taken to Barice and the arrest was made by -- you can see

19 who it is. You can see, again, what it says, and then:

20 "The Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Vogosca will do

21 everything in their power to exchange the nine arrested Serbs for the

22 detainees from Svrake who participated in the armed attack on Vogosca."

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you know what happened with this? Do you know that these nine

25 people were exhumed and that traces of slaughter and massacre were found

Page 12613

1 on them?

2 A. While giving testimony here, I heard about it here. I don't know

3 if it was found that their throats had been cut and that they had been

4 massacred. I don't know that.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

6 Can we tender this document, please?

7 JUDGE KWON: Not this time. This is just a news clipping, and

8 the witness didn't confirm anything. And I think it's sufficient to have

9 admitted 1D3341, not this one.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Can I remind you -- or, actually, do you agree -- do you remember

12 that on the 18th of April, the Green Berets, and the Muslim part of the

13 MUP, and SDA activists from Vogosca attacked the Pretis factory on the

14 18th of April?

15 A. Which incident are you thinking of, specifically?

16 Q. On the 18th of April, there was one single major incident by

17 these formations. Members of the Green Berets, the Muslim part of the

18 MUP, and the SDA activist attacked the Pretis factory, the military

19 factory Pretis. It was a large attack. Did that attack take place?

20 A. You're not saying the correct things.

21 Q. All right. Enlighten us, tell us what happened.

22 A. With pleasure.

23 On the 18th of April, a special unit of the Ministry of the

24 Interior, and you refer to them as the Muslim part of the MUP. Actually,

25 it was the special unit of the Ministry of the Interior under the command

Page 12614

1 of Dragan Vikic. It's generally known that Dragan Vikic is not a Muslim.

2 I hope you know that as well. You know very well who that man is.

3 Q. Dragan Vikic is a Croat. He was a member of the Muslim-Croat

4 coalition; is that correct?

5 A. I kindly ask you not to interrupt me. It's not important to me,

6 what Dragan Vikic is by ethnicity. In this context, it's important to

7 know that he's not a Muslim. The unit that he commanded throughout the

8 war was completely multi-ethnic. It had Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats, and

9 other ethnicities. On the 18th of April, they entered the Pretis factory

10 and they took some of the weapons that were needed for the defence of the

11 town of Sarajevo. Thank God that they were successful, because by doing

12 that they saved hundreds of people from your shells and from your crimes.

13 This was a legal and legitimate action carried out by a unit of the legal

14 Ministry of the Interior, and the weapons, in any case, belonged to the

15 Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina. What was left of the weapons fell

16 into your hands, and it is well known how and how often you used it, all

17 the way until NATO bombed that particular factory.

18 Q. Mr. Witness, do you know that the Yugoslav People's Army, or

19 rather its unit that was guarding the factory, refused the warnings and

20 the assistance offered by the Serbian side because they did not consider

21 the Serbian side as an existing entity? They considered this factory to

22 be the property of the JNA, and, therefore, no attack by the MUP can be

23 considered legal if the target is a legal installation of the Yugoslav

24 People's Army?

25 A. Again, you are presenting erroneous facts. This factory was not

Page 12615

1 guarded by any JNA unit. The factory had its own internal security

2 service. Security officers, as they call them in English. This unit was

3 led by Risto Bajalo. You mentioned him here. And as I said, there was

4 no JNA unit guarding the factory. The responsibility for providing

5 external security was under the remit of the Government of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the MUP forces.

7 Q. And these security officers within the factory, under whose

8 command were they?

9 A. They were under the command of Risto Bajalo, a Serb.

10 Q. And Risto Bajalo, under whose command was he?

11 A. I already told you the factory had its own internal security

12 service. Therefore, Risto Bajalo was an employee of the factory.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D3327.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Witness, was this part of Pretis factory a military plant?

16 A. I believe so.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you please now look at the column on the left,

18 paragraph 3. It says:

19 "Members of the Green Berets and the so-called BH MUP carried out

20 an armed attack on the Unis factories in Vogosca, which resulted in the

21 first casualty. On that occasion, some of the Pretis special-purposes,

22 industry-produced products and a large number of the cars were looted and

23 stolen. This prompted the Serbs to take power in the municipality, and

24 all of this affected and resulted in the suspension of the production."

25 Is this the event that we are talking about?

Page 12616

1 A. You have already put forth a number of assertions that are

2 absolutely untrue. This event could not possibly be the last straw that

3 induced the Serbian Crisis Staff to take power in Vogosca, because they

4 had already had power in Vogosca and did what they wanted. I'm telling

5 you again, that was a legal police operation. There were no

6 Green Berets, no activists, no hoards, as you often call them in your

7 statements, took part in this operation. Therefore, we are talking about

8 a legal police operation carried out by the legal forces of the BH.

9 Q. So the victims were also legal?

10 A. There were -- what kind of casualties are you talking?

11 Q. How many Green Berets were killed on that day?

12 A. This operation was carried out so superbly that not a single

13 member of the police force, which you call Green Beret, was wounded. You

14 probably have wrong information provided to you by your people from

15 Vogosca. Nobody was killed, and none of the Pretis employees were among

16 the casualties. There were only casualties the following day. The first

17 operation was carried out during the night; whereas, the next day there

18 are casualties.

19 Q. Now, look at this:

20 "They burst into it on the 17th of April, and then they came back

21 on the 18th of April to capture the factory, which caused tremendous

22 casualties."

23 Do not qualify my question. Does it say here that the

24 Crisis Staff took power at that point, and that was on the 14th of May?

25 A. I absolutely don't understand what you are trying to say. You

Page 12617

1 have cited a number of things that don't hold water, and I don't

2 understand them. You are completely lost in asking questions.

3 Q. Does it say that on the 13th of May, 1992, that this event was

4 the cause for the Serbs to take power?

5 A. Sir, I'm not interested at all in reading any pamphlet printed by

6 the SDS. This is a Chetnik and a Greater Serbian pamphlet full of lies.

7 Q. This is a municipal bulletin, not a pamphlet.

8 A. Was it a joint municipality or just a Serbian?

9 Q. Only the Serbian.

10 A. So now you expect me to accept the statements of Chetnik

11 provenance.

12 Q. Now, you see, sir, why you have been branded as a dangerous

13 extremist.

14 A. If I may be allowed to answer this question.

15 Mr. Accused, I am a Muslim, and I will remain a Muslim forever.

16 You are not a relevant person -- you're absolutely not a relevant person,

17 particularly in the position that you are in, to judge whether I am an

18 extremist or not. This is up to you. I am telling the truth here, and I

19 refuse to be insulted. I cannot be anything else but a Muslim. However,

20 your blind hate of the Muslims is your problem; it's not my problem.

21 Q. Do you see what is written here about the 3rd of May, saying that

22 Green Berets from Kobilja Glava, together with HOS, attacked Blagovac?

23 Was Blagovac and part of Hotonj, where Serbs lived, attacked as well as

24 the central part of Vogosca? Did that take place on the 3rd of May?

25 A. There was some combat operation. I don't know which operation

Page 12618

1 you're having in mind. I don't know whether there was one on the 3rd of

2 May, but there were no HOS members or Green Berets taking part in these

3 operations where police and the regular Territorial Defence, which was

4 later renamed Army of BH. Of course, you find it difficult to say the

5 name of BH Army because they have caused so much trouble for you. And,

6 of course, we are talking about regular MUP police forces. But I do

7 understand your need to distort the truth.

8 Q. Did the BH Army exist on the 3rd of May?

9 A. There was a regular and a lawful Territorial Defence of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which would later grow into the Army of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Now, what was the basis for this regular, whatever you wish to

13 call it, force, to attack Kotonje, the Serbian village of Blagovac,

14 Krivoglavci, and the central parts of Vogosca? What was the reason for

15 that attack?

16 A. First of all, the TO and the police did not attack the Serbian

17 village of Blagovac, as you say, although in this village, the Serbs were

18 a dominant community. But there were also Bosniaks and Albanians living

19 there as well.

20 Now, from these positions -- positions from Krivoglavci, from

21 Blagovac, from the central parts, there were shells fired on a daily

22 basis. What do you expect them to do? Should they have been sitting and

23 not responding to fire? People were being killed by shells, by snipers.

24 The power -- the power was cut, the water supply was cut. Did you expect

25 us to sit quietly and just look at it without doing anything? You, as a

Page 12619

1 peacemaker, wanted to ethnically cleanse Vogosca.

2 Q. Please refrain from these patterns.

3 Were you fired at from Vogosca and all these parts before the

4 3rd of May?

5 A. I kindly ask you again not to interrupt me again.

6 Q. You are wasting my time. Please answer my questions. Don't ask

7 me questions.

8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Please calm down.

9 And you don't have much time, Mr. Karadzic. Just ask the

10 questions one by one.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The question is clear. Are you saying that -- as you say, the

13 fact that fire was being opened, did that happen before the 3rd of May?

14 A. You had started firing before the 7th of January, 1992, from

15 artillery guns, from sniper rifles. You were using the whole arsenal of

16 weapons that you had at your disposal. Are you trying to tell me that

17 that is not true?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We are going to ask the

19 OTP to corroborate your statement with appropriate documents.

20 Can we have this document tendered into evidence, because it was

21 a contemporaneous document drafted at the time of the event?

22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you put your question to the witness

23 based upon the viewpoint of this article, and the witness answered

24 clearly to the questions, so we don't need -- we don't need this article

25 to understand the context of the witness's evidence.

Page 12620

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Can we now have 1D3346.

3 This is news from Bosnia, published by the Sandzak News Forum,

4 which is a Muslim forum based in Sandzak, in Serbia, and it says here:

5 "On the night between the 17th and 18th of April, special MUP

6 units, based on the previous co-operation, established contacts with the

7 most responsible people from Vogosca and demanded support for carrying

8 out an operation in order to take out equipment and materiel from the

9 Vogosca Pretis factory and take them away from TO Vogosca."

10 It says here that a number of Patriotic League were involved in

11 this. Then it says that from Stari Grad municipality, units were

12 dispatched. And towards the bottom, it says part of the unit TO

13 Novi Grad, led by the late Safet Hadzic - and later on a street was named

14 after him - Safet Hadzic, unfortunately, with his van came to the unit's

15 main gate, where from the forest and the bunker across, they were faced

16 with Chetnik bursts of fire from machine-guns.

17 Do you agree that a number of people were killed on that occasion

18 and that Safet Hadzic was amongst them?

19 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Witness: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

20 MS. EDGERTON: It would have been useful to have been notified

21 about this document.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree and I apologise, but this

23 is the result of the witness's rebuttal of things that are generally

24 known.

25 JUDGE KWON: It is something from one's blog.

Page 12621

1 Yes, in any event, can you answer the question, Mr. Witness?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I can, Your Honours.

3 This was taken off a private Internet provider. Anyone can have

4 their blog on the Internet, and they can put on it whatever they please.

5 I absolutely don't want to comment what is written here, because a huge

6 number of things stated here are not true. It's your problem, if you had

7 been using this for your propaganda purposes.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Is this a Muslim blog, sir?

10 A. I browsed the Internet very often, and I don't care whether any

11 blog is Muslim, Croatian, Australian, Israeli, or whatever. I don't view

12 them in that way. I don't know if it is Muslim. Objectively speaking,

13 it could have been created by the Serbs.

14 Q. The Serbs, in that case, would have called it "Raska." Do you

15 agree?

16 A. No, I don't agree. For me, Sandzak is Sandzak, and you may call

17 it what you want.

18 Q. Sir, do you dispute that Safet Hadzic, a hero after whom a street

19 was named, was killed on the night between the 17th and 18th on the

20 attack on Pretis?

21 A. Mr. Safet Hadzic was killed one day after the operation carried

22 out by the MUP special unit.

23 I haven't finished.

24 So the special unit carried out an attack during the night, and

25 before dawn they left the premises of the factory. Safet Hadzic,

Page 12622

1 however, was killed sometime around noon on the following day.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this blog admitted into

3 evidence?

4 JUDGE KWON: We have no basis, Mr. Karadzic, to admit this.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 Can we now have 1D3340, and can it please not be broadcast.

7 This is a document that was retrieved from the archives, and it

8 was created from the 1993/1994 section. We still don't have a

9 translation. I'm going to read it.

10 Archive document. The year is --

11 JUDGE KWON: This is another document which was not notified?

12 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am really sorry, but this pace is

14 really killing me, and it is affecting our ability to present evidence,

15 and it can also jeopardise our health.

16 Now, I am going to present this to everyone concerned. This is

17 an archived document kept in the archives, and this document was created

18 in 1993 and 1994.

19 Can we please have page 4. Do not broadcast this.

20 Here, listed are the activities, the crimes, and the

21 mistreatment, and the names of the perpetrators.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Now, Witness, if you'll look on the column on the left,

24 paragraph 3, "Nijaz Grebovac" and the others, look at these names. Do

25 you see that according to these archived documents, all these people took

Page 12623

1 part in organised taking away of the Serbs to Kosevo, where they were

2 executed? They also carried out preparations for combat and provided

3 arms to the Muslims? Can you see these five names here?

4 A. Out of these five names that we see here, only two are people

5 from Kobilja Glava. So that is incorrect, for starters.

6 I have already denied participation in what you are trying to

7 impose on all of us here now, so this doesn't really mean anything to me,

8 that my name is contained in your archives. As a matter of fact, I am

9 pleased that that is the case, because it means how worthy I am.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 A. You're welcome.

12 Q. Look at these names. Where it says, at the very bottom, that

13 during lunch, they killed the Ristovic family sometime in the summer of

14 1992. Is it true that the Ristovic family was found having lunch at home

15 and then they were killed, all of them? Just say that, don't be afraid.

16 A. Don't you worry about me. I'm not afraid. It is true that the

17 Ristovic family was killed. Nobody is denying that, and don't you worry

18 about me.

19 Q. What about these starting with the letters "Zh" onwards?

20 A. Yes, I know each and every one of them because they live there --

21 they lived there, rather, at Kobilja Glava.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. And that's no secret.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Can this document be admitted, or marked for identification

Page 12624

1 before it's translated?

2 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, what's the provenance of the

3 document? "An archival document" means absolutely nothing to us.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain?

5 The Army of Republika Srpska and the ministry were abolished, but

6 all of this material has been archived, and that was done then in 1993

7 and 1994. That's the date of the document, and these complete archives

8 were established. And the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska no

9 longer exists, but the archives remained within the joint documentation.

10 I'm afraid that you have been notified of this document, that the

11 Prosecution had been notified that this document would crop up.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, have you heard of a person by the name

13 of Milorad Bukva?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never heard of that person.

15 JUDGE KWON: We mark it for identification, but only for the

16 purpose of understanding the context of the witness, because this was put

17 to the witness. He identified some names and some incidents, not beyond

18 any more.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you. We just -- I don't know what the

20 document is at all. That's the basis of my question, and I'm still no

21 clearer on what the document is.

22 JUDGE KWON: Really? I'll consult my colleagues.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something before you

25 reach your decision?

Page 12625

1 These are archived documents, and they have become part of the

2 archives of all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And notice was provided yesterday

3 that I would be using this document during the cross-examination. These

4 are voluminous archives.

5 JUDGE KWON: At this moment, we are not satisfied with the

6 foundation of this document, Mr. Karadzic. And some parts of this

7 document was recognised by the witness, and I think it's sufficient by

8 this. At this moment, we would not admit this document.

9 You have five minutes to conclude.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly request a few more

11 minutes.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, are you sure that these paramilitaries existed in your

14 day in Vogosca, these White Eagles and whatever, and how did you

15 recognise them?

16 A. What do you mean, specifically, Mr. Accused?

17 Q. Well, you mentioned in different statements and during the

18 examination-in-chief that there were different paramilitary groups there,

19 that the White Eagles and Seselj's men were there, and that you

20 recognised them by the white eagles that they wore?

21 A. Well, it's a generally-known thing that Seselj's soldiers, the

22 White Eagles, were in Vogosca. They were put up at the Park Hotel. Any

23 child in Vogosca knew that. Any inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina knew

24 that. It is a generally-known fact that they took part in military

25 operations, and their leader, Seselj - do not interrupt me, I haven't

Page 12645

1 cannot deal with every aspect of the evidence-in-chief. Let's

2 concentrate on important issues, and then believe in the Judges' --

3 professional Judges' ability.

4 We'll adjourn for half an hour. We'll resume at 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

8 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Muracevic.

9 If you could take the solemn declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

12 and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: ESET MURACEVIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honours. Good morning.

19 Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Muracevic.

21 Could you please state your full name?

22 A. Good morning. My name is Eset Muracevic.

23 Q. As we've discussed, part of your evidence in this case will be

24 submitted in writing, so we first need to deal with the formalities

25 associated with that submission.

Page 12646

1 It's right, isn't it, that you've provided a number of statements

2 generally to the Bosnian authorities, and also statements in relation to

3 a number of suspects?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. You've also provided a number of statements to members of the

6 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. You've also had an opportunity to review a statement which has

9 consolidated relevant information from these prior statements into one

10 amalgamated witness statement; is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Registrar, could I have 65 ter 90228 on the

13 screen, please.

14 Q. Mr. Muracevic, is this the statement that you reviewed? Do you

15 recognise your signature at the bottom of the page?

16 A. Yes, this is the statement that I signed.

17 Q. And you initialled each page and signed the last page; is that

18 right?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Do you confirm that the statement is accurate?

21 A. Yes, it is accurate.

22 Q. If you were asked today about the same matters contained within

23 that statement, would you provide the same information to the

24 Trial Chamber?

25 A. Yes, I would provide the same answers.

Page 12647

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter number 90228, the

2 statement of the witness, into evidence.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be admitted as Exhibit P2361.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: With Your Honours' leave, I'll now read a

6 summary of the witness's written evidence.

7 Prior to the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the witness worked

8 for many years as the secretary of the local commune of Svrake, in the

9 Vogosca municipality. The witness describes events from the multi-party

10 elections and changes that were felt in the village from that point on.

11 At the beginning of 1992, check-points were established on all

12 main roads. In early March 1992, Muslim-owned houses came under infantry

13 fire and another set on fire. Barricades were established in the Svrake

14 area.

15 The witness describes the arming of the local Serb population by

16 the JNA and others. Weapons from the Pretis factory in Vogosca were

17 taken to the Semizovac military barracks, from where the local Bosnian

18 Serb population collected automatic rifles and ammunition.

19 At the beginning of May 1992, the village of Svrake was attacked

20 by SDS paramilitary formations, houses destroyed, and the village

21 plundered.

22 On the 4th of May, 1992, when a convoy of around 600 villagers

23 attempted to escape to the Bosnian-controlled territory of Breza, the

24 last group of 430 villagers were stopped by police and soldiers and taken

25 to the military barracks in Semizovac.

Page 12648

1 From May until December 1992, the witness was detained in a

2 number of different facilities under the control of the Bosnian Serb

3 authorities. He was first detained in a facility known as the bunker,

4 which was nearby to the local restaurant Kontiki, otherwise known as

5 Kod Sonja. While he was held at the bunker, he was taken to another

6 facility for one night, known as Naka's garage, where a large number of

7 local non-Serb population were being held. Around 11 August 1992, he and

8 other detainees were transferred from the bunker to a detention facility

9 known as Planjo's house.

10 The witness describes how the detainees were interrogated,

11 beaten, abused, and threatened with death by the guards, interrogators,

12 and various other groups, including Seselj's men, who would enter the

13 bunker and Planjo's house. Branko Vlaco, the head of the detention

14 facilities in Vogosca, was regularly present when the detainees were

15 subjected to the abuse.

16 The witness describes the conditions at the bunker. The

17 detainees received little food, slept on cold, wet floors, and did not

18 receive medical treatment. A number of detainees were taken from the

19 bunker for exchange and never seen again.

20 On a number of occasions, the witness and other detainees were

21 taken from the bunker and Planjo's house for forced labour to the

22 front-lines, where they were also used as human shields. A number of

23 detainees were killed and injured doing this forced labour and being used

24 as human shields. Bodies of those killed while forced -- doing forced

25 labour were brought back to Planjo's house and buried by other detainees

Page 12649

1 in the local cemetery. The witness describes a visit in August 1992 to

2 Planjo's house by Momcilo Mandic and a journalist from Serb Radio/TV in

3 Pale. Mandic told the detainees that there was no need for them to be

4 exchanged because they were already at their homes.

5 On the 5th of December, 1992, the witness was taken from Planjo's

6 house to the front-line and used as a human shield, and while at the

7 front-line, he managed to escape to Bosnian-held territory.

8 After his escape, the witness resided in Sarajevo. He describes

9 the terror inflicted on the population, the civilian population, by the

10 shelling and sniping by the Bosnian Serb forces, and relates specific

11 instances of shelling of the city between 1993 and 1995, when he was

12 wounded as a result of the shelling.

13 In 1996, after re-integration, the witness found a number of

14 documents in the Vogosca municipality building and provided those

15 documents to a number of Bosnian agencies and also to the ICTY. He

16 provides information relating to some of these documents and also

17 additional documents shown to him.

18 Your Honour, that completes the summary of the witness's written

19 evidence. I have a number of question.

20 Q. Mr. Muracevic, as secretary of the Local Commune of Svrake,

21 briefly, what were your duties in early 1992?

22 A. As the Local Commune secretary, I was involved in technical

23 issues relating to the organisation of life at the level of the Local

24 Commune. That also included co-ordination with political parties,

25 co-ordination of certain actions that were organised at the level of the

Page 12650

1 Local Commune. I was in charge of that.

2 Around 1200 people lived in my village, predominantly of Muslim

3 ethnicity; i.e., around 1.036. There were only 170 Serbs, whereas the

4 remaining population was composed of members from other communities, such

5 as Croats, Yugoslavs, and those who declared themselves as the others.

6 Before the war, my village was one of the best-known villages

7 where good inter-ethnic relations prevailed. Therefore, there was no

8 indication before the war of what happened later in 1992 and thereafter.

9 Q. Your statement contains details of your interrogations and

10 beatings in the bunker, and conditions of detention, and that's at

11 paragraphs 20 to 61, and also in Planjo's house, and that's paragraph 62

12 to 84. So I'm not going to ask you to expand on those details in the

13 limited time I have, because I wish to show you a number of documents.

14 If we could have 65 ter 19133, a photograph, please. It consists

15 of two photographs. If we could have the first -- the exterior

16 photograph first.

17 Mr. Muracevic, looking at the photograph in the top left-hand

18 corner, the upper photograph there - there's two photographs - do you

19 recognise what's depicted there?

20 A. This photograph shows the camp or the bunker close to Kontiki Bed

21 and Breakfast in Vogosca. It was better known as Kod Sonja. At the time

22 when I was there, this bunker was not covered with roof tiles. The

23 photograph beneath depicts one of the rooms inside the bunker, where we

24 were detained.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

Page 12651

1 I seek to tender 65 ter number 19133, which consists of those two

2 photographs, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE KWON: Different from this map, together with pictures?

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we can admit the whole map. That's

5 part of -- oh, I'm sorry. I called up 19133, which is the entire map.

6 The two photographs are in 65 ter number 01449. So I'm in Your Honours'

7 hands as to whether you wish --

8 JUDGE KWON: Having the benefit of the computer, through which we

9 can zoom in, I don't think we need to accept separately the two photos.

10 I think this will --

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yeah. Or we could actually admit the two

12 photographs, which are 01449.

13 JUDGE KWON: If you please, yes.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE KWON: No problem. We'll admit 1449.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. It's -- I misspoke when

17 I mentioned the 65 ter number 01449. It's simply 19133, which is what

18 we're seeing on the screen. I'm sorry, my apologies.

19 I wish to show 65 ter number 23096. And, Your Honours, I seek

20 leave to use that photograph -- that's to add it to our 65 ter list.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. So shall we admit 19133?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, please.

23 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2362, Your Honours.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 12652

1 Q. Mr. Muracevic, do you see what's depicted and do you recognise

2 what's depicted in that photograph?

3 A. This photograph depicts one of the camps known as Naka's garage.

4 It's a tyre repair shop of Nasif Karalic, and it was used as a camp known

5 as Naka's garage.

6 Q. And in your statement, you say that you were taken there for one

7 night only and then back to the bunker; is that right?

8 A. That's right. I saw around 150 people, residents from my

9 village, in this facility who were detained there.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that photograph.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2363, Your Honours.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND:

14 Q. Mr. Muracevic, what happened to the house that you lived in in

15 1992?

16 A. Since in the attack on my village, the JNA Air Force was also

17 used to bomb my village, close to my house eight aerial bombs fell, but

18 did not explode. However, after the village was captured by

19 representatives of the Bosnian Serbs some 10 or 15 days later, they took

20 a number of detainees from the camp who were in the bunker with me, and

21 they forced these people to carry one of those unexploded bombs into my

22 house, into the local mosque in Svrake, and a third one in

23 Nurija Selimovic's business premises in Gora Local Commune. By

24 detonating these devices, they demolished my house, the mosque, and the

25 business premises of Mr. Selimovic.

Page 12653

1 Q. I want to turn now to what you describe in paragraph 69 to 84 of

2 your statement, and that is how you and other detainees were taken for

3 forced labour and used as human shields. Can you first briefly describe

4 for the Chamber what you had to physically do when you were taken for

5 forced labour?

6 A. The taking of the detainees to perform certain labour jobs from

7 their place of detention was done under Branko Vlaco's authorisation, who

8 was the warden of the prison. He, in a certain way, gave his approval

9 for the detainees to be taken out. The detainees were forced to carry

10 out various jobs, mainly on the front-lines, which included the digging

11 of trenches, communication trenches, and other fortification features.

12 Such jobs carried out on the front-lines actually took part along the

13 lines of separation between the Serbian Army and the BH Army. The

14 majority of the detainees who carried out these jobs was virtually

15 exposed to fire from both sides. Many of the people who went to perform

16 this labour never returned. Some of them were killed and buried at the

17 local cemeteries either in Svrake or in the vicinity of the detention

18 facility.

19 Naturally, there were some jobs that were requested by the local

20 population, which involved working the fields. Then other units made

21 similar requests, such as the Rajlovac Brigade, Serbian Brigade. Then

22 there were jobs relating to the Ilijas Police Station, et cetera. For

23 the most parts, all these jobs were performed on the front-lines, where

24 the detainees were exposed to fire from both sides. Quite a few of them,

25 as I said, were killed while doing labour. Many were seriously wounded,

Page 12654

1 and some of those seriously wounded did not receive proper medical

2 assistance, which caused the injuries to heal in a very complicated way

3 and it took a long time.

4 Q. What, if any, psychological -- what was any psychological impact

5 on you from -- as a result of you being used as a human shield?

6 A. Of course, the very knowledge that you are between two fires

7 enhances your fear of what might happen. I, myself, was injured once

8 when I did the labour and I did not receive proper medical assistance,

9 and I had complications in my left hand all through the end of my

10 detention. Before the war, I was able to play guitar, but due to the

11 badly-treated wound, I am not able to do that any longer.

12 Q. And when you actually went to work on the front-lines, what did

13 you actually have to do?

14 A. Typically, we were digging trenches on the front-lines. On

15 several occasions when I was there, I was involved in the digging of

16 trenches, covering of the trenches. And once, before I escaped, I had a

17 feeling that they were preparing us to put us forth as a human shield,

18 because we were digging along the separation line facing Rajlovac and

19 Zuc. All this work mainly involved the digging of trenches, carrying of

20 ammunition and heavy weaponry, and providing their lines with materiel,

21 whether it be ammunition or the like.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that is all the questions that I

23 have.

24 I seek to tender all of the associated exhibits; that is, the

25 exhibits listed in paragraph 88 of the statement and also the one listed

Page 12669

1 in proceedings in Bosnia, for which we don't have his testimony yet.

2 We're hoping to receive that at some point, and those are proceedings

3 involving Momcilo Mandic, Mladen Milanovic, Sretko Damjanovic, and

4 Borislav Herjak [phoen]. So it's my understanding he testified in trials

5 of each of those persons, and we don't have the transcripts or the

6 recordings of those. I just want to make a note of that. Then if it

7 becomes necessary to ask for any relief, we'll do that in the future.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Muracevic.

14 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

15 Q. According to your statements, you worked in Svrake, as secretary

16 of the Local Commune, from 1981 until 1992; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I have to ask you, and remind myself, to take -- to make small

19 pauses so that the interpreters can actually interpret what we are

20 saying.

21 Am I right when I say that before the system changed after the

22 elections in 1990, you worked as the secretary of the Local Commune?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. At the time, were you a member of any political party?

25 A. Yes. I was a member of the League of Communists.

Page 12670

1 Q. Thank you. I'm pausing for the interpreters, just so that it

2 doesn't puzzle you in any way.

3 Did you then go on as a member of the party that was the

4 successor of the League of Communists?

5 A. Well, in 1990, as a member of the League of Communists, I held

6 the position of the secretary of the Municipal Conference of the

7 Socialist Alliance of the Working People in Vogosca. After that, I

8 was -- I became a member of the organisation that was called the Alliance

9 of the Reformist Forces. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was headed by

10 Nenad Kecmanovic.

11 Q. Thank you. In one of your statements, it says "SDP," so I

12 thought --

13 A. Well, the League of Communists. You know how that transformation

14 went. The SDP was -- well, I mean, I don't know how to put this. I was

15 a member of the League of Communists, and it was later transformed into

16 the SDP. But just before the outbreak of the conflict, I was a member of

17 the Alliance Of the Reformist Forces, headed by Mr. Nenad Kecmanovic.

18 Q. Thank you. You can also follow the transcript, and when the

19 transcript stops, that means that the interpreters managed to interpret

20 what we were saying.

21 Am I right if I say that in view of those 11 or 12 years, as

22 secretary of this local commune, you were one of the prominent citizens

23 in your village?

24 A. I don't know whether you can call it prominent. But as a man who

25 carried out this technical work for the Local Commune, I was a person who

Page 12671

1 everybody knew, and, in a way, I was involved in the organisation of life

2 in the territory of the Local Commune. I was carrying out different

3 activities related to the functioning of a village; right?

4 Q. Thank you. Did you note the formation of the SDA, the SDS, and

5 the HDZ before the elections in 1992 in your village?

6 A. I did note the formation of the SDS party and the SDA party in my

7 village. Other than the political parties that were active before - I'm

8 thinking of the League of Communists and the Socialist Alliance - there

9 were no other options before that.

10 Q. There weren't too many Croats there, so you didn't have the HDZ

11 there, did you?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. We didn't.

13 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us who represented the SDA?

14 Who were in the party? Who was the SDA membership in your village?

15 A. It was mostly the local population of Muslim ethnicity, no one in

16 particular who was prominent in that party. It was mostly the local

17 inhabitants.

18 Q. Are you trying to say that the more prominent Muslims stayed

19 faithful to the left-oriented parties, the SDP and the reformist parties,

20 or did any of them cross over to the SDA?

21 A. I don't think that many people crossed over into the SDA and the

22 SDS, although a number of people who were in these parties did transfer

23 to the SDS and the SDA.

24 Q. Thank you. In your consolidated statement, paragraph 3, you said

25 that the ethnic structure of the population was 1.240 total in the

Page 12672

1 village of Svrake; around 1.030 Bosniaks, 170 Serbs, 2 Croats, and 21 who

2 declared themselves as Yugoslavs, and 18 persons -- actually, 18 per cent

3 of other ethnicities. Who are these others? What did you think of?

4 A. Mostly the Roma, Albanians, and some others who declared

5 themselves as others and did not declare themselves as belonging to the

6 ethnic group that they belonged to. This is according to the ethnic --

7 to the census of 1991.

8 Q. So they did not declare themselves as being as any of the three

9 constituent peoples, Serbs, Croats, or Muslims; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Am I correct that there were fewer Serbs than these others?

12 There was about 16 or 17 per cent of Serbs, and the others, there was

13 18 per cent of them?

14 A. There were just 170 Serbs. So when you make that comparison,

15 that's what it comes to, approximately, although the others, who declared

16 themselves as others and as Yugoslavs, there were also Bosniaks and Serbs

17 who did not declare themselves according to the ethnic definition or

18 orientation.

19 Q. Thank you. I'm not sure if we were talking about persons or

20 percentages.

21 A. I think it's persons, individuals, not percentages. 170 persons

22 of Serbian ethnicity lived in my local community.

23 Q. And that amounted to 17 per cent; is that correct?

24 A. I never made that calculation, but I assume that that is correct.

25 Q. Thank you. In other words, this was a predominantly Muslim

Page 12673

1 village, not to say exclusively Muslim; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your statement, the consolidated statement, in paragraph 4 you

4 say -- I will have to read in English because we don't have a Serbian

5 version:

6 [In English] "The residents of Serb ethnicity started visiting

7 neighbouring Serb villages more often, such as Semizovac, Krivoglavci,

8 Paljevo Brdo. This was during 1991 and more often during the first

9 months of 1992. It usually happened during the night, and during the day

10 they would return to their homes to feed the cattle. Since I was

11 secretary of the Local Commune, we organised our men of Bosniak ethnicity

12 to look after Serb houses so that there would not be any robberies."

13 [Interpretation] You did receive the translation. Is this your

14 statement?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And are you able to tell the Trial Chamber and the participants

17 why the Serbs spent nights in Serbian villages and not in Svrake, in

18 their own homes?

19 A. In the course of 1991, at your rallies devoted to organising the

20 plebiscite of the Serbian people, you had the habit of announcing the

21 following: that in the municipalities and areas that would be under the

22 control of the Serbs, you would ban the sale of properties to Muslims,

23 you would ban the construction of houses for Muslims in territories that

24 are under your control, and that any Muslim foundations that are built

25 will be blown up. This you had the habit of stating at your public

Page 12674

1 rallies before the plebiscite of the Serbian people.

2 Sometime in late 1991, you publicly threatened, from the Assembly

3 platform, that the Bosniak people would disappear if a conflict were to

4 break out. Perhaps all of that had an effect on the local people who had

5 some kind of instructions from representatives of the Serbian

6 Democratic Party that we were not aware of. And as good neighbours, a

7 place where inter-ethnic relations were good, it was strange to us why,

8 from time to time in 1991, they were more often going to Krivoglavci,

9 going to Paljevo, where some of them had weekend homes before. So, in a

10 way, we were afraid that some local criminals, perhaps, could rob one of

11 their houses. We were afraid that there would be an incident, and we

12 were also afraid that the Serbian population was trying to bring about an

13 incident.

14 I must say that in 1991 or early 1992, the majority population of

15 the Svrake Local Commune, which comprised of Muslims, did not cause a

16 single incident that would cause such behaviour on their part. There

17 wasn't even a single incident involving robbery of their property or

18 anybody threatening anybody's security. I think that the fact that they

19 kept leaving the settlements was pursuant to directions of the Serbian

20 Democratic Party, either the local branch, the local branch that had

21 links with the municipal organisation, which, in turn, was linked to the

22 republican organisation under you.

23 Q. Sir, are you trying to say that the Serbian people were so

24 obedient that they would go to sleep and spend the night in discomfort

25 upon recommendation of the Serbian Democratic Party? Is that so?

Page 12675

1 A. There was no other reason. There was no other reason. The

2 Muslim population did not give any single cause for something like that.

3 They had to have been listening to somebody. They didn't leave their

4 houses because somebody was telling them to leave or driving them out.

5 Even in conversations with them, we kept asking them not to go, but they

6 wouldn't listen.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Muracevic, where did you hear that I said

8 publicly that Muslims will not be able to build houses and settlements in

9 Serbian territory and that foundations would be blown up? Where did you

10 hear that?

11 A. In documents -- there is an audio-recording of such a statement.

12 I don't have it with me. There is an audio-recording of a statement of

13 yours, where you say that.

14 Q. And you studied those audio-recordings and documents of my

15 speeches at the meetings of my party; is that right?

16 A. Later, there was an opportunity to hear and to read all sorts of

17 things, as they say; of course, not prior to the conflict, but after the

18 war.

19 Q. Ah-hah. And somebody showed you that after the war. Who was it

20 that showed that to you?

21 A. I had the opportunity to read that in a gazette or a bulletin of

22 the State Commission for Investigation of War Crimes.

23 Q. Ah-hah. So then we have to take into account that what you are

24 saying, you are not saying based on your own experience or what you went

25 through in the field, but based on your experiences while studying

Page 12676

1 documents about war crimes, as compiled by the state; is that correct?

2 A. In 1991, I didn't have the opportunity to hear these transcripts

3 and read them. I had the opportunity to read that after the war.

4 Q. And after you read that, can you please tell us, is it correct

5 that I conveyed, at a party Planum, what I told Mr. Izetbegovic in

6 response to his idea to move in four million Muslims from Turkey, and

7 that I told him, Yes, you can do that, but not to Serbian areas. You are

8 not going to artificially alter the ethnic compositions. Such

9 settlements will not be set up in the Serbian areas. I am interpreting

10 what I told privately to Izetbegovic, and I stated that at a closed

11 meeting. And you say that I said that. Is it the way I said it?

12 A. Well, it's your right to say whatever you will, but what you are

13 saying is something that I don't know. What I do know are the results of

14 what you, together with the local authorities and the local SDS in my

15 local community in my municipality, what you did.

16 For example, in the territory under the control of the Serbs in

17 the beginning of 1992, which is meaning that in a year -- in a territory

18 controlled by Serbian forces from Vogosca, 13.127 citizens were deported,

19 over 11.000 of whom were Bosniaks. This was in the territories that were

20 under your control from May 1992 until mid-June 1992 [as interpreted],

21 when the local Serbian authorities in Vogosca municipality made some kind

22 of census. You expelled 13.127 non-Serb inhabitants, including over

23 11.000 Bosniaks.

24 If this is what you were talking about with Mr. Izetbegovic

25 privately, or reached some kind of agreement about something, then all

Page 12677

1 right. But I am aware of what was happening in the territory that was

2 under your control.

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will wait, of course.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think that there

7 may have been an interpretation mistake. Page 71, line 1, "until

8 mid-June 1992." Mr. Karadzic may like to clarify with the witness

9 whether he means 1992 or 1993.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 I cannot see page 71. Something has stopped here on my screen.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. But, Witness, sir --

14 JUDGE KWON: The public, common computer.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Ah-hah.

16 Q. You say here at the beginning of this page that the Serbian

17 authorities, up until mid-June 1992, expelled 11.000 -- actually, 13.127

18 people?

19 A. I'm sorry, I made an error. I'm talking about June 1993. It was

20 a slip of the tongue.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir, are you saying this as someone that

22 you, yourself, saw, or are you talking about it based on what you read in

23 the material given to you by the State Commission for Investigation of

24 War Crimes?

25 A. I'm speaking partly from personal experience, because 1.036

Page 12678

1 Bosniaks from my village in that period left. None of them stayed. None

2 of the Bosniaks stayed behind in Tihovici, either, which was

3 predominantly populated by ethnic Muslims.

4 So this is information partially obtained during the war.

5 According to the documents, upon the integration of Vogosca as part of

6 the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation, dealing with the Vogosca municipality,

7 a report by the Census Commission indicates how many citizens there were

8 in 1993 in territory controlled by Serbian forces. So from May 1992

9 until this census in June 1993, 13.127 non-Serb citizens were deported,

10 expelled, placed into camps from the territory under your control. This

11 included more than 11.000 Bosniaks, and the rest were people of other

12 ethnic groups and those who did not declare themselves as Yugoslavs.

13 Q. Sir, Mr. Muracevic, is my information that you are a poet

14 correct?

15 A. Well, you could say, amongst other things, that I do write poetry

16 as well, yes.

17 Q. Thank you. I think that all people are honourable, and

18 particularly poets. And, of course, you also gave your solemn oath here.

19 So may I ask you this: You are not here as an expert of the Bosniak

20 government; you are talking about things that you know reliably. Thank

21 God you know a lot, and, unfortunately, you went through a lot of these

22 things yourself. So because there are so many of these things, why would

23 you also need to look at material that the Government of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina gave you to look at? Were you coached, and who coached you

25 for this testimony?

Page 12679

1 A. Sorry, the government or anybody else [as interpreted] gave me

2 any kind of documents to prepare myself for this testimony.

3 After 23rd of February, 1996, when we returned to the part of the

4 Serb-controlled Vogosca, I found certain documents in the municipality

5 where I used to work. Among other documents, the documents that we see

6 today here are there. So nobody gave them to me. This is what I found

7 inside the municipal building, in schools, in the Kontiki Bed and

8 Breakfast, in the vicinity of the bunker camp, et cetera.

9 So we are talking about the documents that I personally

10 collected. We are not talking about any documents given to me by the

11 government or anybody else in order to coach me for giving evidence here.

12 Q. Witness, you were able to see what happened about 1.000

13 inhabitants of your village. You couldn't know what happened to about

14 13.000 people, so let us just confine ourselves to the things that you

15 personally saw or experienced yourself.

16 JUDGE KWON: Let us clarify with the transcript again.

17 Did you say, Mr. Muracevic, that government or anybody else gave

18 you any kind of documents to prepare yourself for this testimony? It's

19 line 5 and 6 of page 73.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The government did not give me any

21 kind of documents in order to prepare myself. However, the documents

22 that I personally collected were placed at the disposal of various

23 agencies.

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one second, please. I

Page 12680

1 apologise, Mr. Karadzic. Since you asked me and the President took the

2 floor, I failed to give you an answer.

3 In the area of Vogosca municipality, I stayed in the camps until

4 the 5th December 1992. Therefore, I had an opportunity to see and hear

5 what was happening in the area that you controlled in Vogosca, meaning

6 not in my village alone, but in the whole area of Vogosca under the

7 Serbian control.

8 During my detention at various camps, occasionally other people

9 would be brought in, coming from other parts of Vogosca municipality, who

10 then gave me accounts of what was happening in their respective areas.

11 Now, if we talk about the number of people expelled from the territory

12 under your control, this is something that I have personal knowledge

13 about.

14 Q. Thank you. I will be grateful to you, and I believe that goes

15 for other participants as well. If you present all of this that you saw

16 yourself, and I'm wondering if what you say -- saw yourself. A minute

17 ago, you gave us a precise number, 13.127, which is the figure that you

18 saw in the papers produced by the Commission for the Investigation of War

19 Crimes. Did you, yourself, acquire this information or did someone

20 provide you with it?

21 A. Mr. Karadzic, it is not true that these documents were given to

22 me by representatives of the government. That's the document that I

23 personally found in the municipal building in Vogosca, left behind by the

24 Serbs.

25 As for my personal knowledge about the expulsion of the

Page 12681

1 population, I just made a comparison between the two and the document

2 from 1991, and we reached the figure that I mentioned. So I'm talking

3 about the document that was left behind by the Serbs after the 23rd of

4 February, 1996, when this area became an integral part of the Federation

5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. Are you trying to say that on the premises where the Serbian

7 authorities had been, you found a document produced by a Muslim

8 commission for investigation of war crimes, even before the document was

9 compiled, because it hadn't been compiled before February 1996.

10 Therefore, Mr. Muracevic, I am calling upon you as an honourable poet and

11 man to tell us the truth.

12 A. Mr. Karadzic, you are not speaking the truth. I found this

13 document after February 1996 on the premises that prior to that had been

14 controlled by the Serbian side. So nobody gave me that document. I

15 found it personally in the municipal building of Vogosca.

16 Q. Is that a document of the Muslim or Bosnian Government or is it a

17 document produced by the Serbian authorities?

18 A. This is a document produced by the Serbian authorities, not the

19 Bosnian Government.

20 Q. Can you show us this document?

21 A. Sir, I'll try.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I do have the two documents the

24 witness is referring to.

25 I think Mr. Karadzic is confusing the witness somewhat.

Page 12682

1 Mr. Karadzic was given a proofing note the other day which said that

2 there was a Serbian document that was found in the municipal building,

3 and he was also given a document which states in the proofing note that

4 it was authored by the witness, which has the figure of 13.157.

5 So these are the two documents that the witness is referring to.

6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: That could go on the ELMO, perhaps.

8 JUDGE KWON: Do you like to see that document now, Mr. Karadzic?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I know which document is being

10 spoken about by Ms. Sutherland. But the witness spoke about the document

11 produced by the Commission for Investigation of Crimes. This is not the

12 one. That was the kind of interim census that was carried out in the

13 course of the war. I am interested in the document that the witness

14 received from the Commission for Investigation of War Crimes. And if my

15 LiveNote was in order, I would have given you the exact page and line.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic, you're not talking

17 truthfully about what we are discussing. I never said that I received

18 this document from the Commission for Investigation of War Crimes.

19 Instead, I found it in the municipal building, upon my arrival on the

20 23rd of February, 1996, to the territory that had been under the Serb

21 control. Therefore, it is not true that anyone from the Commission for

22 Investigation of Crimes gave me this document, or anyone from the state

23 authorities, for that matter.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When I asked you how you knew that, didn't you, yourself, mention

Page 12683

1 the Commission for Investigation of Crimes?

2 A. I gave you that answer in relation to your public appearance with

3 regard to the plebiscite in 1993.

4 Q. Who gave you those documents?

5 A. The ones referring to the plebiscite, is that what you mean, the

6 1991 plebiscite? Your question is not clear.

7 Q. Who gave you the documents produced by the Commission for

8 Investigation of Crimes that you mentioned here?

9 A. Nobody gave them to me. I said that I read that in a bulletin of

10 that commission, and part of those speeches were published in the media;

11 specifically, in "Oslobodjenje" newspaper, where reference was made to

12 your statements given during the plebiscite. So nobody gave me that

13 personally. I rather had an opportunity to read it in a public document.

14 Q. With all due respect, Witness, you said here that I said in a

15 public speech, which is something that I actually said in a closed

16 meeting of my party, and that was an interpretation of what I had

17 discussed with Mr. Izetbegovic in private.

18 Now, who gave you the documents that were not in the public

19 domain?

20 A. There is no such document. I just quoted part of the speech that

21 you delivered before the 1991 plebiscite. There were broader statements

22 carried in the media, and there were lots of things that you said apart

23 from what I wanted, so in the bulletin of the State Commission for

24 Investigation of Crimes, part of it was published in "Oslobodjenje."

25 Unfortunately, I don't have the copy of that newspaper with me here.

Page 12684

1 Q. Just one more question. What you're talking about now, did you

2 know all of that in 1992?

3 A. Well, I knew some things, because your fiery speeches at the SDS

4 rally were intended to awaken the national consciousness of Serbs.

5 Perhaps you did not directly instigate certain things, but you used to

6 express yourselves in a poetic way, as you did, and that provoked a

7 certain reaction.

8 Q. Witness, I would like to get an answer from you, because you

9 didn't know anything about what you cited from that meeting because that

10 wasn't published, and you didn't know that in 1992. Are you trying to

11 say that the Serbian peasants knew about that in 1992, or is it that they

12 went to spend the nights in the Serbian villages because they were afraid

13 of what might happen to them?

14 A. I believe that members of the Serbian population could have known

15 that, because they regularly attended various rallies and meetings of

16 yours, where you gave a variety of speeches, and that applied to my

17 fellow villagers. I don't know whether they went to this particular

18 meeting that had to do with the preparation for a plebiscite, but they

19 did attend the meetings that you held.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it the time for a break?

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

22 Very well. We'll have a break for 30 minutes and resume at three

23 minutes past 1.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

Page 12685

1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Muracevic, in early March you sent your family to Germany; is

4 that correct?

5 A. No, I did not send my family to Germany in early March, but

6 rather my family, that is to say, my wife and my children, on the day

7 when our village was attacked, went to pay a visit to my wife's mother.

8 And then from there, during the war, they left for Germany and joined my

9 brother there, who had been working there for quite a number of years.

10 Q. Well, I am now confused, Mr. Muracevic. It says here, in

11 paragraph 2 of your amalgamated statement:

12 [In English] "My wife and children left B and H in March 1992,

13 and returned in 1996, after the war."

14 [Interpretation] And you said a similar thing in one of the

15 interviews that you had with the Prosecution in 1996, immediately before

16 your family returned.

17 A. My family left my village in May 1992. On the 2nd of May, to be

18 precise.

19 Q. Why did you then say here that they left in March?

20 A. I can't now compare and explain various statements that I made.

21 I don't know why it says "March," but I know that they left the village

22 on the day when the village was attacked, and they went to Visoko to join

23 my wife's mother.

24 Q. And when did they leave Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. In the course of 1992. I didn't know exactly. They lived in

Page 12686

1 Visoko with my mother-in-law for a certain period of time, then they

2 moved to my sister's place in Zenica, and then they established contact

3 with my brother in Germany, and eventually they left for Germany in 1992.

4 Q. Which month?

5 A. I didn't know that at the time, but I think it was towards the

6 end of 1992.

7 Q. When did you find out when they left?

8 A. I spoke with my family for the first time in 1993, after I

9 escaped from the camp. So I spoke to them for the first time on that

10 occasion, and that is when I found out that they were practically living

11 with my brother in Germany.

12 Q. But after your escape, one day after your escape, you told the

13 Muslim authorities that your family was at Visoko?

14 A. At the time when I escaped, I knew that they were in Visoko, but

15 I didn't know that they had already left Bosnia and Herzegovina. At that

16 moment when I gave them this statement, I was not aware of the fact that

17 they had left Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is something that I learned only

18 in 1993; that is to say, that they were not living in Bosnia any longer.

19 Q. But after 1993, you knew when they left. Why did you maintain

20 your claim that they left in March?

21 A. It must have been a misprint. I have always claimed that they

22 left in May, so it's probably a misprint.

23 Q. You say that you organised night guards to protect the Serbian

24 houses in your village?

25 A. Yes. Alongside the local police and the population, we made an

Page 12687

1 effort towards protecting these houses from being looted by criminals or

2 preventing any incidents happening that might cause the Serbs to say that

3 their property was under attack.

4 Q. It's not clear to me, Mr. Muracevic. And in spite of the guards

5 and this protection, the Serbs preferred to go to spend nights in other

6 villages. Wasn't everything that you did enough to make them feel safe?

7 I think maybe it was just the contrary. That is what made them go out

8 and sleep elsewhere.

9 A. I don't think that you are describing the situation correctly. I

10 even think that Serbs had certain instructions about the attack on our

11 village by the Serbs, even before the 2nd of May, when the village was

12 attacked. Probably due to this kind of information, they decided to

13 leave the village in order to avoid becoming a target of their own units.

14 Q. I understand that you were thinking, because, as they say,

15 everyone has a back and everyone has a thought in his mind, but, I mean,

16 do not tell us what you think. Tell us what you know.

17 A. They started leaving our village towards the end of 1991.

18 Immediately after the multi-party elections, people felt in my village

19 that inter-ethnic relations were being disrupted. It was particularly

20 due to the influence of the neighbouring village of Krivoglavci, where

21 215 citizens of Serb ethnicity, in relation to the municipality of

22 Vogosca, where there were representatives of Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats,

23 they sent a petition, actually, to this Vogosca Municipal Assembly to ask

24 for banning the sale of Serb houses to Muslims and to prohibit Muslims

25 from building houses in that village. So all of that, in a way, affected

Page 12688

1 their behaviour in our village. Towards the end, in 1991, they started

2 leaving, and in 1992, it was practically an everyday occurrence.

3 In view of everything that happened at the beginning of May, it

4 probably indicates what -- that they knew what would happen to my village

5 even before the village was actually attacked.

6 Q. Six months before that?

7 A. Well, yes. Yes, precisely in that period.

8 Q. This petition, did you bring the OTP this petition not to have

9 farms and property sold to Muslims?

10 A. I haven't brought it, but it's a public document. You can find

11 it in the archives of the municipality. I didn't bring that, and I

12 didn't attach it to my documents, but that is a fact, and it can easily

13 be found in the archives of the municipality of Vogosca.

14 Q. Am I right, Mr. Muracevic, if I say that you gave at least 10

15 statements and other forms of testimony?

16 A. Well, it could be put that way.

17 Q. How many -- in how many statements and testimonies did you

18 mention that petition?

19 A. Several, a few, possibly. I cannot say that with any degree of

20 certainty now.

21 Q. Well, we are going to ask the distinguished Ms. Sutherland to

22 save the day for us, because I have not found that in a single one of

23 your statements or in a single one of the testimonies you provided. This

24 is the first I hear of it. What do you say to that?

25 A. I cannot say anything for sure. I mean, I know how many

Page 12689

1 statements you have there at your disposal, but I just mentioned this

2 petition. I mean, I didn't attach it here.

3 So it is a fact that at one of the first sessions after the

4 multi-party elections, one of the first sessions of the Municipal

5 Assembly, where the SDS participated as well, this kind of document was

6 received, and that can be found in the municipal archives.

7 Q. Thank you. This is a first-rate document. If it exists, we

8 certainly need it. If it does not exist, then, Mr. Muracevic, your

9 statement and your testimony that you are providing just now look quite

10 different, don't they?

11 A. The document does exist, and we shall do our best to have it

12 provided to you.

13 Q. Thank you. You said, in paragraph 8 of your statement, your

14 amalgamated statement, that after the referendum, incidents started

15 occurring, the Public Security Station was split up on an ethnic basis,

16 roadblocks were set up, et cetera. Are you linking these roadblocks to

17 the referendum?

18 A. Well, for the most part, these barricades/roadblocks have to do

19 with the referendum on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Sorry,

20 although there were some barricades - perhaps I can call them that - but

21 there were some check-points at the entrance to certain villages that

22 were primarily Serb populated. They existed before, too. But if we're

23 talking about barricades and roadblocks, we basically link them to the

24 period around the referendum.

25 Q. And what you said about before the referendum, could you please

Page 12690

1 give us specific information and proof to that effect?

2 But you did mention that these barricades had something to do

3 with developments related to the referendum. What particular

4 developments are you referring to?

5 A. Well, on the 29th of February and the 1st of March, 1992, there

6 was a referendum that had to do with citizens stating their views on the

7 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Already during the night of the 29th

8 of February, things started happening. In Krivoglavci, which is a

9 village near the Vogosca fly-over, there was shooting, so the balloting

10 station had to be closed there.

11 On the 1st of March, 1992, the local population of Serb ethnicity

12 got an enormous quantity of weapons out of the Semizovac Barracks. This

13 was weaponry of the Territorial Defence that was actually stored at the

14 Semizovac Barracks, and all of this was taken to Krivoglavci,

15 Kotorovici [phoen], above Simovac, and other places that were populated

16 by Serbs.

17 After the 2nd of March, the roadblocks cropped up all over town.

18 Q. Mr. Muracevic, are you trying to say that the Serbs were

19 hindering that referendum, obstructing it?

20 A. In Blagovac and other areas, yes. As a matter of fact, the

21 Local Commune of Blagovac did not allow a balloting station to be placed

22 in Blagovac because one of the voting stations had to be moved to the

23 university in Vogosca. And as for Krivoglavci, since the referendum went

24 on for two days, the polling station in Krivoglavci had to be closed down

25 because of the provocations of the Serbs. There was shooting and so on.

Page 12691

1 Q. Mr. Muracevic, do you know that we received compliments from the

2 United Nations and the European Union because we made it possible for

3 Muslims and Croats to vote? In Serb-populated villages and towns, there

4 weren't balloting stations because the Serbs did not want to vote; isn't

5 that right?

6 A. Well, that is not right. I don't know about these compliments.

7 But as for the question of voting in Krivoglavci and Blagovac, that could

8 not be linked to those compliments, because the voting was actually

9 obstructed in those places. Also, there were some Serbs who voted at

10 that referendum. Specifically in my Local Commune of Svrake, there were

11 Serbs who came to vote.

12 Q. And why was this not carried by the press? That is close to

13 Sarajevo.

14 A. Well, you're not telling the truth or you didn't read the local

15 newspapers, especially in relation to these incidents in Krivoglavci, at

16 the polling station there. That was reported in the press. As a matter

17 of fact, during the night between the first and second day of the

18 referendum in Krivoglavci, the Serb population even attacked a police car

19 in which there were three policemen of different ethnic backgrounds.

20 There were even Serbs among them. It was riddled with bullets from

21 rifles, because during the night -- between the first and second night in

22 Krivoglavci, there was some shooting, and in this way pressure was

23 brought to bear on the Adrovic family, and also the next day the police

24 patrol intervened and was attacked by the Serb population -- the local

25 Serb population. This patrol managed to leave through my village. So

Page 12692

1 from Krivoglavci, they escaped to Svrake, and from Svrake, they managed

2 to get to Vogosca.

3 Q. What is this? Is this a unit or is it villagers from

4 Krivoglavci?

5 A. I cannot say whether it's a unit or whether it's the villagers,

6 but the local population, that most probably had weapons. Well, I didn't

7 really testify about this incident, but I was a witness when this police

8 patrol got out of Krivoglavci and came to Svrake. I personally went with

9 them to the police station in Vogosca in order to get there, because they

10 were so scared by everything that was going on because of this gun-fire

11 that had been opened at them, at policemen.

12 Q. All right. Why are you and I beating about the bush? Why are we

13 not talking about the main thing that happened; that is to say, the

14 roadblocks? Why are we avoiding that? Is it not true that the

15 barricades were put up because a member of a Serb wedding party was

16 killed near Bascarsija?

17 A. I cannot say anything about that. I wasn't the organiser of

18 these roadblocks or barricades, so I cannot speak about that. At any

19 rate, it did happen during that period of time. But I cannot testify

20 that that was the reason, the killing of the member of the Serb wedding

21 party there or the referendum, because I had nothing to do with that.

22 Q. So you cannot say that it was the referendum that was the reason

23 for that? You've just said so.

24 A. Well, all of that has to do with these situations. It has to do

25 with this period of time. Now, what the real cause was, you probably

Page 12693

1 know that because you organised it.

2 Q. In paragraph 8, you say that in addition to these barricades and

3 all of that, the Public Security Station was split up on an ethnic basis;

4 isn't that right? Do you remember that or do you want me to read it out?

5 A. Well, sometime in March, there was this division of the police

6 force along ethnic lines, so, yes, yes, that it happened, the police

7 station was split up on an ethnic basis, yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Did Muslims erect roadblocks at the same time?

9 A. No, not at the same time. It was only after -- afterwards, when

10 the Muslim population saw these barricades that were erected by the

11 Serbs. Then for a short period of time, barricades were placed in

12 certain neighbourhoods, but very soon they were removed and no longer

13 existed.

14 After these barricades that were put up in March, Serbs were

15 placing barricades, roadblocks, at check-points, and they continued to

16 check vehicles and people passing there. So they did keep these

17 check-points under their control.

18 Q. Are you trying to say that the barricades were not lifted already

19 on the 3rd of March throughout Sarajevo?

20 A. No, no, no, they were lifted by the Serb Democratic Party

21 throughout Sarajevo.

22 Q. Are you trying to say that they were not removed on the 3rd of

23 March, the barricades? What you said about the Serb Democratic Party,

24 you would have to prove that, Mr. Muracevic, and please stick to what you

25 know, please.

Page 12694

1 A. The representatives of Serbs who put up barricades that had to do

2 with the 2nd of March, I mean, the roadblocks, themselves, were removed.

3 But in most places in the municipality of Vogosca where these roadblocks

4 did exist, there were still physical checks that were carried out by

5 representatives of the Serb police and the Serb forces. They were

6 checking vehicles and also the movement of people in and out of various

7 neighbourhoods.

8 Q. Let us see what you say in paragraph 8:

9 [In English] "After that, Vogosca Public Security Station

10 employees split up on ethnic basis. Muslim and Croat policemen moved to

11 the village of Svrake and set up a police station and a check-point along

12 the Sarajevo-Zenica main road, in the village of Svrake."

13 [Interpretation] Who placed these check-points, according to

14 paragraph 8 of your statement?

15 A. Well, part of the local population, part of the police force, and

16 part of the Territorial Defence; right? Well, around us, Serb forces had

17 placed their check-points all over, so this was a way of protecting our

18 neighbourhood.

19 Q. So it's Muslims and Croats, as this paragraph says; right?

20 A. Well, Muslims, for the most part.

21 Q. And then in that way, the road leading to Zenica was obstructed,

22 or rather one had to pass through that check-point; right?

23 A. No. The Sarajevo-Zenica road was not stopped in any way.

24 Vehicles of the JNA and all other vehicles could just pass both ways.

25 That is to say that the JNA passed there.

Page 12695

1 Q. Thank you. Was there such a check-point at Kobilja Glava as

2 well?

3 A. I think so. So in response to the barricades erected by the

4 Serbs, counter-check-points were erected in areas where the Muslims were

5 a majority; specifically, Kobilja Glava, Barice, Svrake.

6 Q. These are predominantly Muslim neighbourhoods; right?

7 A. Well, for the most part, most of the population was Muslim.

8 Q. In paragraph 9, you say that:

9 "Serbs held the top positions in the overall system at that time,

10 in terms of military, politics, economy, education, simply everything."

11 You say "simply everything." Do you stand by that assertion?

12 A. I do. In my municipality, in all key positions, regardless of

13 whether it had to do with the municipality, the police, schools, any

14 other public institutions, even the barracks in Semizovci, it was the

15 Serbs who held all of these top positions. I can also testify to that

16 because I was secretary of the Municipal Conference of the Socialist

17 Alliance of the Working People at the time just before the referendum or,

18 rather, the multi-party elections in 1990, and I, therefore, had an

19 opportunity of seeing this; that is to say, what the personnel situation

20 was in the municipality of Vogosca.

21 Just before the multi-party elections, when the term of office

22 would expire of, say, the president of the municipality, or the head of

23 the League of Communists in the municipality, or the principals of

24 various schools, and so on and so forth, instead of agreeing on what the

25 ethnic structure would be, in accordance with the number of inhabitants

Page 12696

1 from different ethnic groups, most of these office-holders had their

2 terms extended. So there was no ethnic balance in these top positions.

3 It was primarily Serbs who remained in all these positions of top

4 authority.

5 Q. Mr. Muracevic, is the municipality of Vogosca an integral part of

6 the city of Sarajevo?

7 A. At that time, yes, it was an integral part of Sarajevo.

8 Q. Are you trying to say that in the town of Sarajevo in the

9 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serb national community was

10 dominant, holding all the levers of power?

11 A. Based on what I could see in my municipality and in all other

12 parts, mostly, all the significant posts, for the most part, were held by

13 the Serbs.

14 Q. And do you know who Alija Delimustafic was?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Was he a Muslim, and was he a member -- a minister of internal

17 affairs?

18 A. Yes, he was a Muslim and minister of internal affairs.

19 Q. Was Avdo Hebib a Muslim, and was he his police deputy?

20 A. First of all, you want me to testify about the structure of the

21 town, of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was subjected to certain torture in

22 the municipality of Vogosca, primarily in the settlement of Svrake, so I

23 would like to speak about those positions. When I said in my statement

24 that all the key positions were held by Serbs, what I mainly meant was

25 the municipality of Vogosca and in the territory where I lived at the

Page 12697

1 time.

2 Q. And was the president of the municipality in Vogosca a Muslim?

3 A. After the multi-party elections, the president of the

4 municipality, after God knows how many years, was finally a Muslim.

5 I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of Muslims who were

6 appointed to such high-ranking positions.

7 Q. What about the chief of the Public Security Station and the

8 number-one person in Internal Affairs; was that a Muslim?

9 A. At one point, it was. But as soon as the multi-party elections

10 were held, then again the post went to a Serb.

11 Q. What about Vehid Hodzic; is he a Serb?

12 A. No, no, Vehid Hodzic was one of the Muslims who was appointed at

13 the head of the police. Before that, no Muslim was at the head of a

14 police station. After the multi-party elections -- after the

15 multi-ethnic elections in 1990, there was a kind of balancing carried out

16 to a degree to have the president of the municipality post given to a

17 Muslim. The police head was given to a Muslim. I was also talking about

18 the situation before that.

19 Q. All right. But at the time when the crisis erupted in Vogosca,

20 which is what we're talking about, are you saying that the Serbs held all

21 the main levers of power in the municipality of Vogosca, in the city of

22 Sarajevo, and in Bosnia and Herzegovina? But let's stand -- let's stay

23 with Vogosca.

24 A. The president of the Vogosca municipality who presided over the

25 legislative body where half of the membership was Muslim, but the head of

Page 12698

1 the Executive Board was a Muslim, and that is practically the executive

2 power.

3 Q. Mr. Muracevic, do you remember that only as of recently the

4 executive authority became more important, but at that time the

5 number-one person would be the president of the municipality?

6 A. Well, that may sound like that, but executive power, after all,

7 is executive power. The president of the municipality, at least as far

8 as this first person who was elected after the multi-party elections, was

9 not really asked about much.

10 Q. All right. We will come to this in more detail later.

11 You are probably familiar with the directives -- I will wait.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm not sure if there's -- the

14 witness has misspoken or -- it's page 92, lines 2, 3, and 4, when he was

15 saying who the president of the Vogosca municipality was, and then who

16 was the head of the executive board, what ethnicities they were.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We heard that from previous

18 witnesses.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. But perhaps we can confirm that, that the president of the

21 municipality was a Muslim and the president of the Executive Board was a

22 Serb.

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. And in that system, was the president of the municipality

25 superior to the president of the Executive Board; is that right?

Page 12699

1 A. In a way, the president of the Executive Board was not above the

2 president of the municipality, but practically it was the other way

3 around.

4 Q. Practically, the Muslim president of the municipality was a

5 superior to the president of the Executive Board?

6 A. Well, the way the situation was at the time, the Executive Board

7 was taken much more into account. The president of the municipality was

8 the one who would convene all the different positions and ask people to

9 do what was needed, but the Executive Board president already had his own

10 body, and within that body they could implement certain decisions without

11 needing to resort to any outside bodies. As soon as that body was

12 convened, the president of the Executive Board could implement decisions

13 until the next Assembly was convened or until somebody drew his attention

14 to the fact that perhaps he wasn't doing his job properly. But on paper,

15 the president of the municipality was the number-one post and a superior

16 in relation to the Executive Board.

17 Q. What about the Executive Board? Was the Executive Board

18 president able to act outside of the Secretariat or did they act under

19 the auspices of the Secretariat, and did his cabinet consist of a

20 secretary?

21 A. Well, I really cannot go into the composition of the actual

22 cabinet, but the president of the Executive Board was asked about

23 everything. I don't know if he consulted with members of his cabinet.

24 I'm thinking about other members of the Secretariat. This not something

25 that I can talk much about, because I'm not really that knowledgeable

Page 12700

1 about the details, how the meetings were conducted and how he executed

2 his duties as the president of the Executive Board.

3 Q. Mr. Muracevic, you were a president -- you were a part of the

4 system. You were the secretary of the Local Commune. Is it correct that

5 the municipal government comprises the Secretariat and that the cabinet

6 is comprised of secretaries; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, for the most part, that's how it should have been.

8 Q. Do you know that the main secretarial functions in the

9 Executive Board of Vogosca were held by Muslims?

10 A. Look, my previous statement, which talks about the relationships

11 which preceded all of this that happened, what I spoke about what, up to

12 1990, was the situation up to the multi-party elections, when all key

13 functions were held by Serbs, this is what I talked about. After the

14 multi-party elections, there was a certain balance achieved in the

15 execution of these functions, but practically this was not something that

16 functioned. It didn't function properly, because representatives of the

17 Executive Board, Serbs mostly, reached agreement with the president of

18 the Executive Board, and those members did not, in turn, consult much

19 with the members of the Executive Board who were Muslims. Mostly, they

20 implemented the positions that they felt should be implemented.

21 Q. But you didn't attend those meetings, and that is your

22 impression?

23 A. Yes, that is my impression. So I didn't really want to go into a

24 debate about the work of that government, but the impression was that

25 mostly representatives in the Executive Board who were Serbs consulted

Page 12701

1 more with the president of the Executive Board and implemented those

2 positions they saw fit, and to a lesser degree did they consult with

3 members of the Executive Board who were from the Muslim ethnic group.

4 Q. Well, we're dealing with the Executive Board now, but you don't

5 know that. You didn't attend the meeting, so you don't know that. Do

6 you know that the main Secretariats were in the hands of the Muslims?

7 A. Yes, but this is what I'm telling you: The policies implemented

8 by the Executive Board did not correspond to what was established at

9 meetings of the Municipal Assembly, and what should have been established

10 and ascertained at the meetings of the Executive Board. It actually took

11 a completely different course that was to the advantage of the Serbs, in

12 a certain way.

13 Q. Mr. Muracevic, earlier on you said that the president of the

14 Executive Board cannot act in any other way other than through the

15 Secretariat, so how do you explain this impression of yours that

16 something was done when the president of the Executive Board does not

17 have the power, other than what is implied in the power of the

18 secretariats or the secretaries?

19 A. Let me explain what that means.

20 In a certain period, my local commune, in order to implement a

21 specific project, should have received 200.000 dinars at the time. I

22 don't know the value. And then, at the proposal of the Executive Board,

23 it was said that only 100.000 dinars was awarded in order to implement

24 that project. So now there is the question: If it was agreed that it

25 would be given 200.000 dinars, why did the president of the government

Page 12702

1 then only give us 100.000? So based on things like this, one would gain

2 the impression that the president of the Executive Board did not care

3 much for the opinion of his colleagues in the Executive Board who

4 happened to be Muslims.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Muracevic. By that analogy, in each government in

6 Europe, the Serbs would be in charge, because all governments function

7 like that; they promise you something, and then they give you a half of

8 it.

9 But, anyway, is it true that the war began in your area on the

10 2nd of May?

11 A. The attack was carried out or began on the 2nd of May, 1992.

12 Q. Thank you. And you in your statement you said that:

13 "The war in our area began on the 2nd of May."

14 Is that correct?

15 A. Yes. For me specifically and for my Local Commune, it began on

16 the 2nd of May, although the given is that the war in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina began a bit earlier, didn't it? Already, shells were falling

18 before the 2nd of May, launched by Serbian forces.

19 Q. Well, let's just leave aside the things that you don't know. We

20 have a list of the expended ammunition daily, as it pertains to Sarajevo.

21 A. It's not that I didn't know that shells were falling on Sarajevo.

22 You could hear detonations in Vogosca as well. The detonations of shells

23 dropping on Sarajevo could be heard in Vogosca and also in the place

24 where I was living; namely, Svrake. So you cannot say that I didn't know

25 that shells were hitting Sarajevo before the 2nd of May.

Page 12703

1 Q. Thank you. All right. So how do you explain that from the 6th

2 of April, when war broke out in Sarajevo, until the 2nd of May, there was

3 no war where you were?

4 A. How do I think that possible? My village, before the 2nd of May,

5 was completely encircled. From the beginning of 1992, it was literally

6 encircled by Serbian forces that were around the village, and that they

7 had armed guards, trenches. And then from the March barricades on,

8 literally, the village found it difficult to bring in food into the shops

9 that were still working. Very often, citizens were inspected at these

10 check-points. At some check-points, even cars were confiscated from our

11 people.

12 Q. In another place, Mr. Muracevic, you said that events further

13 away from Svrake were responsible for the shortages of food, and it's not

14 the way you are telling it today.

15 A. No, it's not true that I said that it had to do with events

16 farther than Svrake.

17 From the beginning, from 1992, my village was completely blocked

18 by Serbian forces, which literally monitored the entrance of each

19 individual, and each individual village [as interpreted], that entered

20 the settlement, including the supply vehicles. So from the beginning of

21 1992 until the attack on my village, the shops had a lot of difficulty to

22 obtain food articles in order for the people to be able to buy them.

23 Q. Mr. Muracevic, in paragraph 8 earlier, we read that the

24 check-points near your village were held by Muslims, not Serbs, so now

25 this is something new. Nobody knew about this before now. What

Page 12704

1 encirclement? Which forces encircled the village of Svrake from the

2 beginning of 1992?

3 A. Mr. Karadzic, I don't know whether you are deliberately or

4 unintentionally twisting everything that I'm saying.

5 If you look at my village, Svrake, on the map it was

6 strategically surrounded by places that were controlled by the Serbian

7 population. All key directions, Vogosca, Semizovac, Ilijas, the

8 Zenica-Sarajevo motorway that could provide entries into my area, were --

9 had check-points at the entrance of my village of Svrake, at Manjez, from

10 the direction of Ilijas. There was also a check-point controlled by the

11 Serbs. Also at the Vogosca roundabout leading from the motorway. The

12 Muslim police in Svrake, you could say, didn't -- I apologise -- didn't

13 have many check-points. Beyond the Muslim check-points, there were

14 check-points by Serb policemen from the direction of Ilijas, from the

15 direction of Vogosca, because the motorway passes through Svrake. So

16 from the direction of Ilijas, before you entered Svrake, in a part of the

17 village called Malacici [phoen], there was a Serbian check-point, as well

18 as on the point where you exit from Svrake and you go towards

19 Krivoglavci, going towards the Vogosca motorway. These were the points

20 where the Serbs had set up their check-points.

21 Q. Mr. Muracevic, let us save on time a little bit.

22 Am I correct if I were to say that earlier you said that Svrake

23 was encircled by Serbian forces, and then after that, just now, you say

24 that Svrake was encircled by Serbian settlements? Which of the two is

25 true?

Page 12705

1 A. Both are true, both encircled by Serbian forces and encircled by

2 Serbian settlements. Krivoglavci, Ilijas, were settlements that were

3 under the control of the Serbs. The entire area around my village,

4 Svrake, meaning Krivoglavci, Paljevo, Semizovac, were held by the Serbs.

5 Q. Were Serbs living there or were some armed forces there?

6 A. Both. There were people living there and there were armed forces

7 there, and they did this alongside the Serbian police forces deployed

8 there.

9 Q. Before 27th of March, 1992, was there a Serbian police force?

10 A. Even before the division of the police along the ethnic lines in

11 March, it operated before 1992 as two component organisations. They were

12 all together in the same police station, but they did not act exactly

13 together. However, I am reluctant to talk much about the police work,

14 because I have no knowledge about how these structures functioned. All I

15 know is that it often happens that the Serb policemen assisted the

16 barricades, that they were checking mainly Muslims and Croats, which

17 created an impression that even before they were officially divided along

18 ethnic lines, they acted separately as two components.

19 Q. Thank you. Did Muslim police officers man the check-points?

20 A. If we talk about the Vogosca junction, the main roads connecting

21 Semizovac, and further on with Tuzla, Zenica, Sarajevo, were mainly

22 manned by the Serbian police officers. Maybe a Muslim or two was with

23 them at times, but I never saw any of them at these check-points.

24 Q. As for the check-points on the motorway to Zenica, in the area of

25 Svrake, were those held by ordinary people or by the police?

Page 12706

1 A. Mainly by ordinary people and by reserve police force. Some of

2 the Muslim officers that were present there were more involved in

3 maintaining law and order inside the village, itself.

4 Q. Mr. Muracevic, I'm not holding you responsible for these

5 check-points, but you said precisely in paragraph 8 that those things

6 were done by the policemen?

7 A. Excuse me. When I say "police," I meant the reserve police

8 force, because in a certain manner, they acted as one single component.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Hasan Efendic, the commander of the

10 BH Territorial Defence, had issued two directives to attack the JNA and

11 the Serbs? One of them was dated the 12th of April, and the other one

12 was dated the 29th of April.

13 A. I'm not familiar with these directives.

14 Q. But do you know what happened at Pretis on the night between the

15 17th and the 18th of April?

16 A. Well, more or less, I know.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we take a look for a moment at

18 D400.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did you know about this second directive that was issued towards

21 the end of April?

22 A. I didn't know anything about either the first one or the second

23 one.

24 Q. Mr. Muracevic, do you accept that the 29th of April is a date

25 very close to the 2nd of May?

Page 12707

1 A. Well, you don't need me to confirm that. It is so obvious from

2 these two dates that they are not far apart.

3 Q. Look at this directive, please. Does it say:

4 "I order full and massive blockade along all the road

5 intersections on the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 on which the units of the former JNA are beginning to withdraw technical

7 and material assets along with the MUP.

8 "Carry out the blockade of the wider region of military objects

9 ...," et cetera.

10 Did you have any military facilities in Svrake?

11 A. No, we didn't have any military facilities in Svrake.

12 Now, first of all, speaking about this document, I must say that

13 this is the first time that I'm seeing it, and I absolutely had no

14 knowledge of it in 1992. As I said, this is the first time that I am

15 seeing it. As I said, there were no military facilities in the village

16 of Svrake.

17 Q. Where was this military facility, and how far your house was from

18 it?

19 A. The JNA barracks in Semizovac was on the right-hand bank of the

20 River Bosna, and my house was on the left-hand-side bank of the

21 Bosna River, exactly opposite the barracks.

22 Q. Can you see this item 2, which says:

23 "Carry out the blockade of the wider region of military

24 facilities ..."

25 Did this include this military facility that you mentioned,

Page 12708

1 regardless of the fact that you didn't know how and on the basis of what

2 the developments took place?

3 A. As far as the barracks is concerned, it is a military facility.

4 But I can't tell you what the intention of the author of this order is.

5 I know that there was no attack launched from Svrake against this

6 military facility, in relation to this order or any other order, for that

7 matter. This military facility was situated in a different local commune

8 on the other bank of the River Bosna, and all the main roads at the time

9 were under the Serbian control. Therefore, there was no possibility for

10 anyone to threaten this kind of facility, and we didn't have any

11 resources to do that anyway.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 1D3354.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You managed to escape on the 5th of December; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You gave your first statement on the 6th of December, which means

17 one day after you escaped?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Is this the statement?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 2.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Somewhere in the middle, after the paragraph which begins: "The

24 1st of March ... ," it says that:

25 "Military columns started moving in all directions, due to which,

Page 12709

1 because of the directive not to touch the army, and due to the lack of

2 proper materiel and equipment, we did not stop these convoys or control

3 them."

4 So it means that you knew that there were directives, and then

5 among them was the directive not to touch the army?

6 A. Well, that was a publicly-known thing. The Muslim leadership of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina called upon the people to refrain from entering into

8 clashes with the JNA. There was no written directive to that effect. It

9 just arrived from various statements given by politicians for the people

10 not to clash with the JNA. The fact is that columns were passing through

11 my village and through Semizovac, made up of the JNA assets obviously

12 stationed in the Serb-controlled areas.

13 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that on the 23rd or the 24th of

14 December, the military leadership of Yugoslavia came and held a meeting

15 with the entire leadership in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in which the Muslim

16 part of the leadership wanted the JNA to be more proactive and active in

17 preventing inter-ethnic conflicts? Was that something that was

18 published?

19 A. Well, I cannot remember the details. I know that there were

20 various alternatives relating to how the JNA should not interfere and how

21 they could help the people, but I can't recall exactly all the details.

22 I know that there were various options on the table for the JNA to become

23 more actively involved in trying to calm down conflicts, but we were all

24 witnesses of how that happened and that it did not happen exactly as how

25 you had agreed.

Page 12710

1 Q. Thank you. Did you take part in military defence preparations in

2 your village?

3 A. Well, in a certain way, after having studied everything that was

4 happening around us, we were, in a sort of way, forced to protect

5 ourselves in the event of a possible attack on our village.

6 Q. So you were an active participant in the defence preparations; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Well, you can put it that way, but I was not solely responsible

9 for that. But you can say that as the secretary of the Local Commune, in

10 a way, it was my responsibility and duty to take care of the population

11 living in my village.

12 Q. Look at this paragraph, please, which is second from the bottom,

13 which reads:

14 "On the 1st of May, I, Ferid Cutura, commander of the Svrake

15 Territorial Defence, Nijaz Salkic, an active policeman, in agreement with

16 Mirsad Durak, a Gras driver who often parked his bus in front of my house

17 in Svrake, decide to transfer one mortar in a Gras bus to Grad, to the

18 Police Officers' Club, which we succeeded in doing, even though we had to

19 pass through two of their barricades. On our way back from town ..."

20 Now, let's stop here.

21 Do you know that as early as on the 6th of April, separation

22 lines were established, but you managed to cross them with this mortar?

23 A. Well, speaking about this mortar, one needs to know that the

24 barricade that was erected on the motorway stopped a vehicle driven by a

25 Serb. Having inspected the vehicle, they established that certain parts

Page 12711

1 of materiel mentioned here were in that car. Since we did not need those

2 pieces of equipment and materiel in Svrake, and we had no intention of

3 using them, we decided to transfer them to the Territorial Defence of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the way described in my statement.

5 Q. Let's forget about this car driven by a Serb. In Svrake, you had

6 a mortar, and your judgement was that it could be put to a better use in

7 the city of Sarajevo. So you loaded it onto a Gras bus, you crossed the

8 separation line, you passed through the Serbian check-point, and you

9 managed to deliver it in Sarajevo?

10 A. Well, I can't give you a simple answer as it is correct or not

11 correct. We are speaking about some of the equipment and materiel that

12 in the days before that --

13 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you why you did it. I'm asking you if you

14 did it.

15 A. You can see, from the minutes, what I did. But the circumstances

16 that brought this about had to do with the fact that the local Serbs were

17 receiving weapons from the JNA barracks, and the mortar, driven by a

18 Serb, was confiscated on the road. Since we did not have any intention

19 of firing at Serbs from mortars, we decided to pass it on to the legal

20 formation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which at the time was the

21 Territorial Defence of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We did not need

22 it, because we didn't want to fight anyone by using a mortar.

23 Q. Thank you. When did you confiscate this mortar from this Serb?

24 A. That was on the night before the 1st of May, which means the last

25 day of April, 1992.

Page 12712

1 Q. Why didn't you provide a description of that?

2 A. What do you mean, I didn't provide a description? What do you

3 mean by that, if you see that I described this event in all the

4 statements I gave?

5 Q. Now, tell me, how did you manage to pass through -- over the

6 front-line? At that time, a public city bus was able to cross over?

7 A. At that time, if a public bus set off from Sarajevo, it could

8 only pass through the territory controlled by the Serbs. If it went from

9 Kobilja Glava to Donja Vogosca, which is on the other end of Vogosca,

10 when it turned back, the whole time it had to pass through the barricades

11 controlled by the local Serbs. So in that respect, the transport was

12 done in that way, because we made use of a bus that had been in Svrake,

13 and it managed to pass through Vogosca and onwards to Sarajevo.

14 Q. What would have happened if you had been detected and discovered

15 by the Serbs?

16 A. Well, they would probably have shot us dead.

17 Q. Thank you. You say here:

18 "Upon return from the town, and after consultation with the TO

19 Municipal Staff, Bakir Alispahic, Vehbija Karic and Mustafa Hajrulahovic,

20 it was agreed that we transfer the mortars to Sarajevo."

21 "Ferid Cutura and I, in a Jetta police car, took mortar shells,

22 and we hid it within the food articles that we were transferring and

23 transporting for the police."

24 Now, it seems that you were brave and you managed to hide four

25 mortars intended for Svrake, which means that it's not true that you had

Page 12713

1 no intention of opening fire from Svrake?

2 A. Well, we did not intend to go to Sarajevo. However, the

3 circumstances prevailing at the time couldn't guarantee anything. And

4 I think that it would have been impossible for us to repeat what we did

5 on the 1st of May, which is to say to transfer the mortars to Sarajevo.

6 Q. Were the Serbs aware of these activities that you were carrying

7 out?

8 A. I assume they were.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Karadzic misstates the record. It's

11 actually one mortar and four rounds for a mortar, not four mortars.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this is a wrong

14 translation, although I do not hold it against them, because due to such

15 speed that we speak at, they might make mistakes.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

17 Q. Mr. Muracevic, were you a member of the Crisis Staff?

18 A. By virtue of my position as the secretary of the Local Commune, I

19 was a member of the Crisis Staff.

20 Q. In Svrake local community?

21 A. Yes, in my local commune, and I co-ordinated things in a certain

22 way with the Vogosca Crisis Staff. I'm referring to the part where the

23 Muslims were a majority.

24 Q. When was the Svrake Crisis Staff formed?

25 A. After the multi-party elections and when all those things started

Page 12714

1 happening, there was an attempt, together with the local residents, to

2 rally people more, and it all started towards the end of September or

3 early October 1991.

4 Q. Thank you. Was the municipal Crisis Staff established at the

5 same time?

6 A. I believe that it was also established sometime in mid-September

7 or thereabouts.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me jog your memory

9 now.

10 Can we have the first page of this document, please.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The third paragraph says:

13 "Up until the moment when taken prisoner ..."

14 Mr. Muracevic, do you distinguish between taken prisoner and

15 arrests?

16 A. Well, arrests and prisoner-taking, it's one-and-the-same thing

17 for me. I mean, arrests, well, it means I'm taken prisoner when the

18 population is leaving our village; that is to say, on the 4th of May,

19 1992. That is to say, together with a column of people from Svrake.

20 When, in agreement with the representatives of the local Serbs in

21 Semizovac, when it was agreed upon that they would let the citizens of

22 Svrake leave through Semizovac, I was in that column. However, the Serbs

23 did not honour that agreement, and they let part of the column pass, and

24 they took prisoner or arrested another part of the column, this group

25 that was taken to the Semizovac Barracks. And I was included in that

Page 12715

1 group, so that was when I was taken prisoner.

2 Q. Thank you. Before I continue with this paragraph: Is it true

3 that after this confusion, it's the fault of your two Muslim negotiators

4 who did not inform you what the Serbs had promised them; rather, they

5 just got their own people out, and you just managed to show up there

6 without any agreement having been reached with the Serbs?

7 A. Well, our negotiators told people that at 2.00, they would stop

8 firing at us, and that during that interval, whoever wanted to leave the

9 village could. However, the area of my local commune is rather big. Not

10 all the people from my local commune were in a single building. They

11 were throughout the territory of the Local Commune. So over this short

12 period of time, it was not possible to get almost 1.000 people to gather

13 there so that they could pass through this -- or, rather, by this

14 barricade over an hour or two. The Serbs said that they would allow two

15 hours for this passage, but already after an hour, an hour and twenty

16 minutes, they did not -- they cut the column and did not allow all the

17 people from Svrake to get to Breza and other parts of that area.

18 Q. We'll get back to that.

19 In one statement, Mr. Muracevic, you said that your negotiators

20 kept some information from you, what kind of guarantees they got from the

21 Serbs. They took their own people, and when they left, the people

22 organised themselves, and then that column was stopped; is that right or

23 is that not right?

24 A. Well, look, I cannot give a mere yes-or-no answer to your

25 question.

Page 12716

1 When the negotiators returned, they explained what the terms

2 were. However, the problem is the following: As I and some of my

3 co-workers were walking all over the village, trying to rally all the

4 people to gather, these negotiators managed to leave the village first of

5 all, and those who lived closest to the highway between Zenica and

6 Sarajevo left together with them, and also some others who were there

7 simply didn't have enough time to leave with them. That is where this

8 thing happened.

9 Q. Well, on the basis of this explanation, the agreed column passed

10 and the non-agreed column was stopped?

11 A. No, no. The agreement reached was that the entire village could

12 leave. However, the Serbs did not honour that agreement. So as the

13 column was leaving the village, they simply cut it off. Those who

14 managed to get through did, and the rest were taken to the barracks in

15 Semizovac. I was in this second group. As the secretary of the Local

16 Commune who had worked there for 10 years, I could not allow myself to be

17 at the head of the column and to be the first to leave, whereas some of

18 my citizens would be left behind. I tried to be among the last people

19 who would be leaving the village.

20 JUDGE KWON: My apologies, Ms. Sutherland. I kept you standing.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if Mr. Karadzic can give me the

22 statement that he's referring to, I'd be very grateful. Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I will certainly

24 do that.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 12717

1 Q. Up until the moment when you were taken prisoner, do you agree

2 that a criminal is arrested, but a fighter, an honest man, is taken

3 prisoner, so you did not explain it properly here?

4 A. Well, I explained specifically what it meant to be taken

5 prisoner. They simply cut off the column. I was with this group of

6 people who remained in the village, and I was taken to the barracks of

7 the Yugoslav People's Army, and that, in a way, was one of the first

8 camps that were established for the inhabitants of my municipality, or,

9 rather, my local commune.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm worried about whether "taken

11 prisoner" is a proper translation. I would like to have the word

12 "capturing" used.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "Taken captive."

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, let me continue.

15 Q. "I was not involved in the Territorial Defence. I was a member

16 of the Crisis Staff when it was headed by Abdil Kula and later by

17 Murat Cutura."

18 Let us stop at this point. This Murat Cutura, was he in the

19 police of Vogosca? Was he some important person up there?

20 A. Well, he did work in the Vogosca police. Now, I don't know

21 whether he was a really important person. He did work at the police

22 station in Vogosca.

23 Q. Do you remember that Skrbic, Zoran Skrbic or whatever his name

24 was, was dismissed, and this Murat Cutura replaced him at the police

25 station?

Page 12718

1 A. I don't know about that. But Murat Cutura was one of the

2 officers at the police station, and, in a way, he did something there.

3 He issued permits for weapons or whatever. I wasn't really that familiar

4 with the structure of the police station, itself, and I didn't know what

5 was actually going on within it.

6 Q. I think that the transcript misstates that you were not involved

7 in the Territorial Defence. You said that you were involved in the

8 Territorial Defence, and in your statement you say:

9 "I was involved in the organisation of the Territorial Defence."

10 A. Of course, as secretary of the Local Commune, it is only logical

11 that I was involved in all of this that had to do with the life and work

12 of my local commune, and that included protection from everything that

13 was going on around us and what started happening around our village

14 months before that, and there was this danger or threat that a certain

15 conflict could happen and my village would be attacked too.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 "At the same time, I was a member of the Crisis Staff for Svrake,

18 Semizovac, and Gora. Through an organised group of five youths, we were

19 in contact with the Green Berets, the radio station we had was operated

20 by Dzafer Devic from Svrake. Given that the Territorial Defence units

21 had been disbanded earlier, we were working on manning the police reserve

22 formation and later on recruiting people into the new TO unit. In

23 co-operation with the municipal Crisis Staff, I was engaged in the

24 acquisition of weapons for the settlements of Svrake, Semizovac, and

25 Gora, which we were paying between 600 and 800 German marks apiece,

Page 12719

1 depending on the type of barrels. Certain SDA activists were involved in

2 the acquisition of weapons through their channels too."

3 Did the Serbs know what you were doing?

4 A. Well, of course they did, because they were the main sellers of

5 this weaponry, because people from my local commune and the neighbouring

6 local commune, days before these activities, entered the army barracks in

7 Semizovac and, quite literally, got all these weapons free of charge.

8 Later on, they sold them to the persons you mentioned there. At any

9 rate, it wasn't that this was some kind of organised procurement of

10 weaponry. Basically, it meant buying weapons from the local Serbs who

11 got these weapons from the soldiers of the JNA from the

12 Semizovac Barracks.

13 Q. Thank you. Murat Cutura and Ferid Cutura, are they related?

14 A. I don't know. I don't know whether they are related. However --

15 well, I don't know whether they are related.

16 Q. It's an unusual surname. Are you not aware of the fact that they

17 are closely related; that they're brothers, as a matter of fact?

18 A. Well, I'm not sure. I don't know about that, and I really

19 wouldn't want to speculate.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Muracevic, can you explain to all of us here why

21 your amalgamated statement does not contain any of this from the first

22 two pages of this statement?

23 A. Well, as secretary of the Local Commune, I dealt with the

24 organisation of life and work in the territory of the municipality -- or,

25 rather, the Local Commune, and that includes the protection of the local

Page 12720

1 population. It meant that everything was included. In the statement

2 that was handed over here, there is a reference to statements as

3 documents. I don't see how this could have been concealed from you in

4 any way. I mean, the statement that I gave, and that is subject of this

5 other statement, too, I mean, there is a reference to these other

6 statements that you are quoting just now, so I don't think that anything

7 has been concealed. After all, there is nothing to hide.

8 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: The witness is right when he says in the

10 amalgamated witness statement, at paragraph 11, it talks about the

11 organisation and what the witness was doing in relation to the TO and the

12 weapons, and it actually footnotes and gives the B/C/S page as well as

13 the English page, to assist Mr. Karadzic. So this earlier statement is

14 actually footnoted in paragraph 11, when the witness describes all of

15 what Mr. Karadzic just talked about, except for the price of the weapons.

16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 But this buying and selling of weapons does not actually fit into

19 Mr. Muracevic's assertions made in his subsequent statements, that Svrake

20 was not armed and that they had only hunting weapons.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Isn't that right? That's what you said in your subsequent

23 statements, that Svrake did not have enough weapons and that the only

24 weapons that the people there had were hunting weapons?

25 A. All the weapons that existed there were so few, in relation to

Page 12721

1 what had been pointed at us. People who bought some weapons there at

2 very high prices, without the right kind of ammunition, I mean, that

3 really didn't mean very much for the defence of our village, because,

4 basically, people paid money for weapons for which you could not find

5 ammunition in the market for years even before that.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 I owe the Trial Chamber and the witness and Madam Sutherland a

8 reference for this agreement between the Serbs and Muslims about the

9 passage of civilians from the combat areas. 1D3351.

10 Now we can remove this, and tomorrow we will be dealing with

11 documents exhibited by the Defence.

12 So can we have 1D3351.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. In December, you gave yet another statement, or, rather, two more

15 statements on the 24th and on the 26th of December; right?

16 A. Well, there were several statements. I cannot remember at this

17 very moment how many there were, but I think that they are referred to in

18 the appropriate statements; right? Well, yes, this is one of those

19 statements.

20 Q. This is the 26th of December, 1992.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have the third

22 statement, or, rather, the third page.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

24 Q. What you say here is that:

25 "The enemy forces asked us to surrender several times. Without

Page 12722

1 consulting the entire population of Svrake, Hajrudin Djulevic went to

2 negotiate with the enemy. Hajrudin Djulevic was the commander of the

3 newly-formed Svrake Police Station, and Senad Kerla, a member of the

4 Svrake Crisis Staff. During the talks, they received assurances from

5 Miro Kuzman and Nebojsa Spiric that anyone wishing to leave the village

6 of Svrake and head towards the village of Gora would be able to do so.

7 However, after Djulevic and Kerla returned to the village, they failed to

8 inform all the residents about that, and, instead, on the 5th of May,

9 1992, people started leaving the village in an unorganised fashion.

10 Thus, the enemy forces allowed a small portion of the population to leave

11 Svrake, but stopped the remaining 400 residents who followed afterwards

12 and locked them up in a hangar in the Semizovac Barracks compound, where

13 all of us remained together until the 6th of May. After making a list of

14 the detained persons, Nebojsa Spiric and Miro Kuzman arranged for our

15 houses to be searched and looted ..."

16 And so on and so forth.

17 Does this correspond to the truth, that one group that had been

18 agreed upon with Djulevic and Kerla did manage to get out, and that this

19 other group that was moving in a chaotic fashion was stopped and sent to

20 the barracks?

21 A. Kuzman and Spiric, Nebojsa. These two other people, actually,

22 Djulevic and Kerla, they agreed with these two men that the entire

23 village could leave. However, these two men did not inform the entire

24 village about that. That is not to say that there were supposed to be

25 two groups leaving. Quite simply, while I, with my associates, were

Page 12723

1 trying to involve the entire population of my local commune in what they

2 had agreed upon with Kuzman and Spiric, they, on the other hand, left

3 with some other people from my local commune before the dead-line that

4 had been agreed upon. Do you understand that? So when this column

5 started leaving, some of these citizens could not get down there quickly

6 enough, and then this column was cut off. So it was just this one single

7 column, and the agreement reached had to do with the entire population,

8 not only with one group.

9 Q. Mr. Muracevic, I am very grateful to you for these detailed and

10 very extensive explanations. All the participants may benefit from that.

11 But then I'm going to have to ask the Trial Chamber to give me more time

12 tomorrow. However, let's try to round this off.

13 There were 400 people there. Is it correct that out of these 400

14 people, nine of you ended up in the bunker, in this prison?

15 A. Among the first ones, yes. It wasn't only nine that were there.

16 It was at the first moment that it was the nine of us, and then there

17 were others later.

18 Q. Is it true that the women and children were released on the 6th

19 to go back to the village, and then after 33 days, the rest of the men

20 were released, too, and were obliged to report back to work, while 9 of

21 you were detained at the bunker and later at Planina Kuca; is that

22 correct?

23 A. We were transferred from Semizovac to the bunker. A part of

24 the -- a number of the people who were captured at the Semizovac bunker,

25 out of them, with the women, were returned to this Svrake settlement,

Page 12724

1 while all the men were taken to another camp, called Naka's garage, at

2 the Vogosca motorway exit. After a few days, they were returned to the

3 Svrake settlement, but had to report in the evening to sleep at Planjo's

4 house. But before the people were returned to Naka's garage, to Svrake,

5 a group of people were transferred, together with us, to Planjo's house

6 and the Kontiki location. So some of these men returned to Svrake. They

7 had to report to Planjo's house to spend the night every night, which

8 then later turned into them having to spend the whole day to Planjo's

9 house, during the day. And then some of them were sent for work duty

10 every day, and then some of them completely disappeared and were never

11 heard of again.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How long are we working today? Do

13 we have time for another question?

14 JUDGE KWON: We've passed already.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Just one more question.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Since you confirmed to us that the Serbs knew what you were

18 doing, in terms of arming, do you see now that that -- the fact that nine

19 people were selected out of a total of four hundred had some sort of

20 basis in the things that the Serbs knew about you?

21 A. No, I don't think that that was that, because those nine people,

22 including me as the secretary of the Local Commune, and if you think of

23 us who were included in some kind of system, but then on the basis of

24 that, there were also among those people in the camp some people that

25 were not really included in anything.

Page 12725

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the first part of

2 the question.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we ask the Trial Chamber --

4 in view of this extreme broadness that the witness is answering with, I

5 would like to request a little bit more time tomorrow; actually, not

6 extreme, but actually useful broadness. I said "the useful broadness."

7 Well, I'm afraid that these translations are really not precise,

8 and I'm dealing with nuances here.

9 JUDGE KWON: That would be a good reason for you to plan to

10 conduct your cross-examination more efficiently.

11 Tomorrow, 9.00.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of

15 March, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.