Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12726

 1                           Wednesday, 2 March 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Sorry to commence with

 7     something as mundane as scheduling concerns but I thought it best to

 8     raise them now.  I had discussed them briefly with Mr. Robinson earlier.

 9     So, a few matters arise that I wanted to bring to the Court's attention,

10     and hopefully with some anticipation, we might be able to resolve them.

11             First of all, the Court will recall perhaps that the testimony of

12     Mr. Banbury was rescheduled from commencing on 14th to 15th and

13     discussions about his interview by the accused also took place with the

14     Defence and while -- and now on the basis of the understanding that we

15     would not be sitting on the 14th, which was the reason for moving him to

16     the 15th, in the first place.  Now I understand we are scheduled for

17     the -- to have court on the 14th.  I would --

18             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Are we scheduled to sit on 14th?

19             MR. TIEGER:  That's what I understood from the Registry

20     yesterday.

21             JUDGE KWON:  It is so scheduled, but the Chamber is not in the

22     position to sit on the 14th.  That's why I -- probably that message has

23     not been -- has not been conveyed clearly to the Registry.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I see, Mr. President.  Well, that certainly obviates

25     one problem so I'm pleased that we raised it.  In a related matter, we

Page 12727

 1     are trying to project out the appearances of witnesses for a number of

 2     reasons, one of which is whether or not we would come to the commencement

 3     of proceedings and have witnesses left who didn't testify.  I discussed

 4     that with Mr. Robinson as well.  Another is whether or not witnesses

 5     would have to give way for long periods to fixed witnesses.  So in that

 6     regard I would ask two things.  Number 1, if the Court would be in a

 7     position to provide the cross-examination estimates for KDZ182 and

 8     Mr. Banbury at the earliest opportunity; and number 2, if there was the

 9     possibility of exploring whether or not some extended sessions could be

10     held perhaps tomorrow and/or Tuesday of next week, and that might

11     eliminate the risk of one of the witnesses being here for quite an

12     extended time waiting while fixed witnesses take the stand.

13             Thank you, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the Chamber will consider the matters.

15             Unless there are other matters to be raised, we will bring in the

16     witness, Mr. Muracevic.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No problem.  Yes, Mr. Tieger?

20             MR. TIEGER:  One additional inquiry, the current court calendar,

21     as you noted, erroneously has us sitting on the 14th but it also notes

22     that we are not sitting on the 18th, and I didn't know if the Court --

23             JUDGE KWON:  We will move Tuesday to Friday.

24             Good morning, Mr. Muracevic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 12728

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, time is precious, Mr. Karadzic.  Please

 2     continue.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning to

 4     everyone.  Good morning, Excellency Lattanzi.  I am glad to see you back.

 5     That means that you have recovered.

 6                           WITNESS:  ESET MURACEVIC (Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Muracevic, how are you?

10        A.   I'm very well, Mr. Karadzic.

11        Q.   Yesterday, we went a little bit forward with respect to the

12     events.  Therefore let's go back in time.  A critical time in Svrake.

13     And up until the 2nd of May, you practically had no war.  There was only

14     tension and mutual mistrust; is that correct?

15        A.   One could say that.  Concerning the departure of Serbs from our

16     village, it wasn't related only to the need to have peaceful nights

17     outside our village, but overnight there was shooting from the places

18     where they went, from automatic weapons, and that caused anxiety in the

19     village where I was living.

20        Q.   Was fire opened at your village, Mr. Muracevic, or was that just

21     the shooting into the air?

22        A.   There was some shooting into the air but at times a stray bullet

23     would reach our village as well.

24        Q.   Was anyone hurt?

25        A.   No.  Not in those shootings prior to the 2nd of May.

Page 12729

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now let us be accurate.  I put it to you that that

 2     many Serbs, 170 of them, in the midst of 1080 Muslims needed to go to

 3     other villages to spend nights in uncomfortable conditions because they

 4     were afraid and they were frightened of your guards, not in order to

 5     shoot at your village.

 6        A.   That's not correct, Mr. Karadzic.  People from our village, who

 7     lived in the centre part of the village, had their houses on the edges of

 8     the village.  Therefore, they did not sleep in uncomfortable conditions.

 9     They slept in their own houses, because many of them, on the slopes of

10     the Paljevo hill, had built houses later in the centre of the village,

11     such as the Cetkovic family.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Were you closely connected and did you have close

13     cooperation with your police station?

14        A.   Since our police station had a branch office, so to speak, in our

15     local commune, we can say that we were keeping close relationship because

16     part of the police force from Vogosca was deployed in my local commune,

17     and I'm talking about the part of the reserve police force, that they

18     were in charge of.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I am making a pause, and you should know why I'm

20     doing that, and please also pause before answering.

21             These two telegrams of the 12th and the 29th of April, did they

22     contain information about the attack on the JNA?

23        A.   I may have -- need to look at these telegrams but I don't think

24     that anyone from the police notified me of that.

25        Q.   Well, we saw this document yesterday but we can look at it again.

Page 12730

 1     I think it's -- but let me check the number of the document.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could D400 be shown to the witness

 3     in order to refresh his memory?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   That's the second one, immediately prior to your crisis.  D400.

 6        A.   I don't have it on my screen.

 7        Q.   Press e-court.

 8        A.   I didn't have an opportunity to see this document before the

 9     conflict broke out in my village.  As I said yesterday, I saw this

10     document for the first time here in this courtroom.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at the date, which is the

12     29th of April?  And it says to the Security Services Centres, all of

13     them, SJB, all of them, and secretary of the Sarajevo SUP, and then it

14     says, "Order on the implementation of the decision of the Presidency of

15     the Republic BH," and then this is followed by the number of the order.

16     And it says, "On the 27th of April, the decision was made," and then,

17     under number 1:

18             "It is ordered to carry out the full and massive blockade of all

19     road intersections on the territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

20     on which the units of the former JNA are beginning to withdraw technical

21     and material assets and do that in coordination with the MUP.  Carry out

22     the blockade of the wider region of military facilities from which

23     technical and material assets are attempted to be taken out of with

24     various methods of formational and natural barriers which should be

25     secured for the units of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of BH.

Page 12731

 1     Unannounced convoys of units of the former JNA and those that are not

 2     escorted by the MUP should be prevented from leaving the barracks and

 3     communicating on the territory of the Republic of BH.  Immediately begin

 4     preparing and initiating battle activities on the entire territory of the

 5     Republic of BH and coordinate them with the headquarters of the

 6     Territorial Defence of the region, district or Republic of BH.  Within

 7     the scope of battle activities, plan all encompassing measures of

 8     protecting the population, the material assets of the citizens of the

 9     Republic of BH.  Minister of the Interior, Alija Delimustafic."

10             Therefore there is no doubt that your police station had received

11     this.  Why didn't they inform you about these preparations for war

12     operations against the JNA?

13        A.   There were elements of the police in my village, so I can tell

14     you with full responsibility, and I said that yesterday as well, I saw

15     this document for the first time yesterday.  Before the conflict broke

16     out in my local commune, nobody told me about the content of this

17     document.

18        Q.   Well, I'd like to believe you but do you think that it would be

19     appropriate for the secretary of the local commune to be notified about

20     what was being prepared at the Semizovac barracks?

21        A.   There were some police actions regarding the barracks in

22     Semizovac, but there was no need, actually, for that because the army had

23     already distributed the weapons from Semizovac to the local Serbs a long

24     time before that.  Nobody informed me about this but they should have

25     done that, and as I said yesterday, I knew nothing about this document,

Page 12732

 1     and I saw it for the first time here in the courtroom.  But I didn't know

 2     about this document, nor did anyone inform me about the content of this

 3     document before yesterday.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that in testimony of yours, which is in

 5     document 1D3349, in your testimony in the case versus Dragan Damjanovic,

 6     before the state court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, when asked whether you

 7     attacked by the JNA, you said, "No, it was done by our Serb neighbours

 8     who were stationed within the JNA facilities."

 9             Let me ask you this for starters:  Do you agree that the

10     Slovenes, the Croats, the Muslims, failed to respond to the call-up of

11     the reserve forces of the JNA?

12        A.   I know that some of them didn't.  However, as far as the

13     activities of the local Serbs and the JNA is concerned with relation to

14     the Semizovac barracks, I can state with full responsibility that the

15     local Serbs enjoyed tremendous support by the JNA stationed at the

16     Semizovac barracks, which, until 1991, until the conflict broke out, was

17     gradually coming under the control of the Serbian authorities.  So in a

18     way, the Semizovac barracks served as a kind of compound where weapons

19     were being distributed, where local Serbs were trained in handling the

20     weapons, and also when all these barricades were erected, it provided a

21     significant logistical support to the local Serbs by placing all the JNA

22     assets in the Semizovac barracks at their disposal.  So the local Serbs

23     and members of the JNA who were at the Semizovac barracks acted in

24     concert against my village.

25        Q.   Let's turn this a little bit upside down.  I put it to you not

Page 12733

 1     that the local Serbs had the support of the local Serbs but that it was

 2     vice versa and that it was only the local Serbs who responded to the

 3     call-up, but the Muslims and the Croats didn't.

 4        A.   I cannot confirm that because I was not part of the JNA

 5     structure.  I had no opportunity to see what was the rate of response to

 6     the mobilisation.  What I'm telling you is based on my own experience as

 7     the secretary of the local commune because my local commune had an

 8     excellent cooperation with Pero Crnogorac, the commander of the barracks,

 9     and the barracks itself, in terms of cultural cooperation and every other

10     cooperation, and also previously through TO units that were joint, and we

11     always had understanding on the part of the Semizovac barracks before the

12     war.  Therefore, there was no need for the people at the barracks to be

13     frightened of the villagers of Svrake because, for years before that, the

14     population did not show in any way whatsoever that they were bent on

15     threatening the safety and security of the soldiers.  After all, the JNA

16     was the army of our common country and state, and we considered it to be

17     our army as well.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that until the 2nd of May, 1992, the JNA

19     had already had bloody and terrifying experiences with their barracks in

20     Slovenia and Croatia, where they were under blockade, where soldiers were

21     killed, where they had electricity, water and telephone lines cut off,

22     that it had been humiliated and that as a whole it was under the threat

23     posed by the local population in those republics?

24        A.   From the media, I know what was going on, but the Semizovac

25     barracks did not face these problems.  As a commander of the barracks, he

Page 12734

 1     was my friend.  Dobrica Stojanovic was also there.  We were good friends.

 2     And as secretary of the local commune and representatives of my local

 3     commune and representatives of the executive branch in those times when

 4     these events were taking place in Slovenia and Croatia, we went to the

 5     barracks to pay them visits, to exchange experiences, to discuss the

 6     shooting that was happening overnight around our villages, and we asked

 7     the JNA to help us calm down the situation and try to reduce the level of

 8     the shooting that was present at the time.  In other words, there was no

 9     fear that the local Muslims in my local communes would threaten the

10     safety and security of the JNA barracks in Semizovac in any way

11     whatsoever, and their commander Pero Crnogorac and other associates of

12     his, on the other hand, never warned us, as something that might due to

13     our conduct jeopardise their safety.

14        Q.   Can we please focus on your answers because I don't think that

15     you would like to stay here tomorrow as well, but nevertheless, we would

16     like to hear everything that you wish to say.  Now, if I put it to you

17     that the Semizovac barracks --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The previous question put by Mr. Karadzic to the

20     witness was about Slovenia and Croatia and I was about to rise and ask

21     him what the relevance of that question was in any event.  And now he's

22     telling the witness to focus when, in fact, he was the one that put the

23     question.  And the witness actually brought it back to his commune.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 12735

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   If I may just say that the relevance is in the fact that the army

 3     already had such experiences and they had reasons to be afraid, and since

 4     they intercepted these two telegrams, and I had them on my desk on the

 5     same day the Muslims sent me those telegrams, so they also knew about

 6     them.  So if I were to ask you, Mr. Muracevic, if you agreed that the

 7     Semizovac barracks was mostly for the warehousing of ammunition and fuel

 8     for the JNA, would you say "yes" or "no"?

 9        A.   I think that the JNA barracks in Semizovac and the one in Misoca

10     was one of the barracks used to store fuel, lubricants and so on.  So it

11     was more of a depot, yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D3349?  I don't

14     see -- I don't see it.  I don't see it on the screen.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   This is a transcript from your testimony in the Damjanovic case.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry to interrupt again, Your Honour, this

18     is actually a summary of the witness's testimony.  Mr. Karadzic has the

19     witness's full testimony at 1D03350, so I think it's better to take the

20     witness to his actual testimony and not a summary of his testimony.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Summary of his transcript or the excerpt?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.  The document Mr. Karadzic is taking the

23     witness to now is a summary of the transcript of his evidence, but we do

24     have the witness's actual evidence at 1D03350, and I think if

25     Mr. Karadzic is going to put any questions to the witness, he should put

Page 12736

 1     his actual testimony to him and not the summary of the transcript of the

 2     testimony.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I tend to agree with Ms. Sutherland's observation.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we then get that

 5     number?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Next -- just next 65 ter number.  1D3350.  You have

 7     it in your list.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  It's there but in order

 9     to save time, it would have been easier for me.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is it correct that in response to the question that -- were you

12     attacked by the JNA, you replied at these proceedings, during the

13     cross-examination, your reply to lawyer Stojanovic, that it was not the

14     JNA but that it was the neighbours, the local Serbs; is that correct?

15        A.   We were attacked in coordination by local Serbs and the members

16     of the Yugoslav People's Army who were there because the local Serbs

17     were -- a large number of them were billeted at the Semizovac barracks

18     any way.  So in a way when I say "the local Serbs" that already would

19     imply that it was the local Serbs who had been well instructed by that

20     time and already billeted at the barracks in Semizovac.  So in some way

21     the attack of the local Serbs on my village was in full coordination with

22     the equipment and materiel located at the Semizovac barracks.  Fire was

23     opened from Semizovac itself and also from the actual facility of the

24     JNA.

25        Q.   But you still said it wasn't the JNA but it was the Serb

Page 12737

 1     neighbours.  I kindly ask for a little bit of patience.  I thought that

 2     this summary would help to us work more quickly.  Now we are going to get

 3     the right page.

 4             It's page 33 in the Serbian.  Up there, your answers at the top:

 5             "Stojanovic, no, not the JNA but our neighbours, the Serbs from

 6     Semizovac, Krivoglavci, and the inhabitant Serbs from Svrake, meaning

 7     that they used the capacities of the former Yugoslav People's Army,

 8     specifically the barracks in Semizovac, which up until then was a

 9     barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army, even the air force?"

10             Were the peasants from Krivoglavci and Semizovac have aviation

11     [as interpreted]?

12        A.   As for the villages, the peasants, did they have the aviation,

13     you may say that they didn't but a member of the Serbian ethnic group

14     from my village was a pilot from the Yugoslav People's Army, and during

15     the attack, the air force of the JNA was used on my village and,

16     specifically, a number of buildings were damaged in the bombardment and

17     some of the air bombs that were dropped on my village did not activate.

18     And then later, the local Serbs, when the village fell, took some of

19     those unexploded air bombs and took them to certain housing facilities,

20     public and private ones, and blew up those buildings.  Specifically in

21     that way they knocked down my home, the local mosque in Svrake and they

22     also blew up a commercial building in another local commune.  Part of

23     this testimony from this court does say that we were attacked by the

24     local Serbs who, to their full capacity, used all that the JNA had at its

25     disposal in the Semizovac barracks.

Page 12738

 1        Q.   Can we agree on something, please?  Can we make it a little bit

 2     more succinct?  Mr. Muracevic, did you know that pilot from your village?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.  His name was Predrag Cetkovic.

 4        Q.   Was he deployed in Sarajevo?

 5        A.   I don't know where he was deployed, but before the conflict broke

 6     out, I had the opportunity to see him once when he landed in a helicopter

 7     at the local stadium in my local commune.  I had the opportunity then to

 8     see him myself as he was getting out of the helicopter.  He wasn't

 9     operating an aeroplane at the time but he had at that time come to visit

10     his house.

11        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  But you don't know whether he took part

12     in this action or not?

13        A.   Well, I can't confirm that.  From the ground you cannot see who

14     is piloting the airplanes, and it wasn't just one plane in the action but

15     several.  So if he was one of the pilots, this is something that

16     I couldn't have seen.

17        Q.   So let's clarify this, then.  Was this action by the air force

18     the action by the JNA or some private action of one of your neighbours?

19        A.   Until the air force began to operate, actually I'm not aware that

20     any private individual had a war plane that was part of the JNA

21     formations in his own private possession.  Several aeroplanes that bombed

22     my village, though, were planes of the Yugoslav People's Army.  They were

23     part of their arsenal.  I'm not aware that any individual could have had

24     such a type of combat plane in their personal possession.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that the mosque was damaged in a

Page 12739

 1     subsequent action by an unexploded bomb or was it hit by an aeroplane?

 2        A.   The mosque in Svrake was significantly damaged after an air bomb

 3     that had not exploded was activated.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  So it wasn't struck by an air bomb, was

 5     it?

 6        A.   Well, you understand, the minaret of that mosque was not

 7     destroyed during that attack on our village but it was destroyed later

 8     when an unexploded air bomb was detonated.

 9        Q.   Can you tell me how many people were killed in that action, from

10     the 2nd to the 4th of May?

11        A.   One person was killed and four people were wounded in my

12     settlement.

13        Q.   In the amalgamated statement, paragraph -- let me just tell you

14     which one, you say that a number of people were killed.  Why do your more

15     recent statements paint the Serbs in a worse light?

16        A.   Can you please show me that statement?  As far as I know,

17     I always said that one person was killed and four were wounded.  Perhaps

18     this was something to the effect that several people were hurt.

19        Q.   Can we look at paragraph 13 of your amalgamated statement now,

20     please?  Here it says:

21             "[In English] People were wounded and killed.  [Interpretation]

22     One person was killed and the second one killed themselves?"

23             Well, it arises from this that people were wounded and killed.

24     How is it that you increase the number in this general formulation when

25     one person was killed?

Page 12740

 1        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you're evidently either not reading what I said.

 2     One person was killed and that means that one person was killed in that

 3     period.  At that point in time, it wasn't possible to determine whether

 4     that person was killed from a self-inflicted wound or from fire from

 5     somebody else.  So one person was killed, four people were wounded.  In

 6     the statement at the time, we couldn't pinpoint whether that person was

 7     killed by fire from the Serbs or as a result of a self-inflicted wound.

 8     So one person was killed, four were wounded.  There are no two persons

 9     killed.

10        Q.   Here it says people were wounded and killed.  Can you please tell

11     us how that one person was killed?

12        A.   I wasn't there when the person was hurt, but the person had a

13     wound.  I was able to get to that person, to their house, and I could see

14     a specific wound in the chest.  Since, in the action on my village,

15     different kinds of ammunition were used, fragmentation ammunition and

16     dumdum bullets, I couldn't really tell whether the person was really hit

17     by fire from local Serbs or perhaps by a weapon that that person happened

18     to have on them.  So in the statement it is not precisely stated whether

19     the person was killed as a result of fire from Serbs or as a result of

20     self-wounding.  I wasn't able to establish how the person died.

21        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, believe me, all of that can be said much, much

22     more briefly.

23        A.   Well, that's up to you, Mr. Karadzic.

24        Q.   All right.  So you say that at that point in time, you didn't

25     know whether the person was killed by their own device or they were hit

Page 12741

 1     by some Serbs.  Did you know that when you gave the consolidated

 2     statement?  Was it clarified that that person died from a wound inflicted

 3     from their own home-made pistol?

 4        A.   We were able to see that later.  When the person was actually

 5     killed, no criminal investigation was carried out to establish the cause

 6     of death.  The body was there unburied for days and then, after a few

 7     days, it was buried at the local cemetery.

 8        Q.   All right.  All right.  I didn't ask you where and when the

 9     person was buried.  Can we please look at 3354?  Is your memory better

10     today than it was in 1992?

11        A.   Well, as for my specific recollection of this particular event,

12     I couldn't establish whether the person was killed by Serb soldiers or by

13     a self-inflicted wound from the weapon that he had on him.  I stuck more

14     by the option that he was probably killed from a self-inflicted wound,

15     and that was the context even though there was no particular

16     investigation.  This was more a matter of my personal conviction than an

17     actual --

18        Q.   Thank you, thank you.  Sir, you escaped on the 5th of December,

19     and then on the 6th, you provided your first statement, "yes" or "no"?

20     We can go with a "yes" or "no" here, please.

21        A.   Yes, 6th of December.

22        Q.   Can we now look at page 3 of this statement of yours?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are looking at page 1 but can we

24     look at page 3 in the Serbian?  I believe that it's probably page 3 in

25     the English as well.  Can we please look at the first paragraph of page 3

Page 12742

 1     of this statement?  Let me just find it.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the statement, I stuck to the

 3     option that the person was killed from a self-inflicted wound because the

 4     person had an improvised device on them which could have caused the

 5     wound.  So in that context, I stayed by the option that it was actually

 6     self wounding and not perhaps a shot fired by the local Serbs.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Well, let's see what you say in the beginning.  You say:

 9             "I went towards the bus station in Vogosca where I managed to get

10     to Semizovac in a bus of Centrotrans, by hiding myself, where I increased

11     the combat readiness of the TO units and the reserve police, and called

12     on the population to undertake maximum measures of caution and use of

13     shelters" and so on and so forth.

14             So you managed to raise the combat readiness of the units.  Why

15     did you do that, Mr. Muracevic?

16        A.   From what you read, you can see why.  Had I not done that, had

17     I not taken the inhabitants to a safe place, I assumed that there would

18     have been many more casualties in my village than there already were,

19     because for days before that you could hear the rattling of weapons

20     around our village, especially from early 1992.  So in some way we were

21     constantly afraid of some possible attack occurring.  An attack was even

22     attempted between the 3rd and 4th of April, 1992, because in the

23     Krivoglavci local community there was a --

24        Q.   Thank you, thank you.  Please believe me --

25        A.   I'm sorry, but, Mr. Karadzic, Your Honours, if I can clarify --

Page 12743

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please, Mr. Muracevic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For months before the attack on my

 3     village, the neighbouring village and the local commune of Krivoglavci,

 4     where the firing range of the JNA was, as well as of the TO and everybody

 5     else, that's where they checked weapons.  For days, on that firing range,

 6     local Serbs, together with various volunteers who arrived from theatres

 7     of war in Slovenia, Croatia, stayed there.  One day, between the 3rd and

 8     4th of April, 1992, from this road between Zenica, Sarajevo, where there

 9     was a police station right by Krivoglavci, they tried to attack my

10     village from there.  They even opened fire.  But thanks to the night

11     guards we had, they didn't manage to enter the village.  So in a way,

12     before the 2nd of May when my village was attacked, it had gone on for

13     months, gunfire provocations, everything that happened at the firing

14     range in Krivoglavci, all these people who we hadn't known before who

15     came to this firing range and who tested different weapons.  We were

16     afraid, in a way, and we were waiting for something to happen to our

17     village.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, as for these incidents and attacks against your

20     village before the 2nd of May, you never said a word of any of that in

21     your previous statements, right?

22        A.   That's not right.  Perhaps you did not have an opportunity to

23     read all the statements that are referred to in the footnotes.  But when

24     we spoke about the Serb population getting out of our village and the

25     beginning of 1992, when in my statements I refer to armed Serb guards

Page 12744

 1     around our village, also the trenches that were dug out around our

 2     village, that in a way went without saying, what was possibly in the

 3     making as far as my local commune was concerned.

 4        Q.   Sir, going without saying is not a fact.  It is a fact that you

 5     never stated that any Serb had attacked you before the 2nd of May.  Do

 6     show us a statement where you said that, or tell us of a criminal

 7     complaint that was filed before that.

 8             However, let's deal with this now.  Sacir Fejzovic, you did know

 9     that on the 6th of December, was killed as the result of a self-inflicted

10     wound, and when you were compiling your amalgamated statement you said

11     that people were wounded and killed.  Tell us now, is that what you said

12     or did this sort of slip into your statement?

13        A.   It didn't slip into my statement.  It is a fact that

14     Sacir Fejzovic was killed during the attack on my village.  Now, was this

15     deadly wound self-inflicted or was it inflicted by the Serbs, there is

16     nothing special in that respect.  It is a fact that he lost his life in

17     that period.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, as Mr. Karadzic knows well, the

20     witness doesn't prepare the amalgamated witness statements, the Office of

21     the Prosecutor does based on all of the witness's prior testimony.

22             JUDGE KWON:  But he read through --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  He reviewed the --

24             JUDGE KWON:  -- reviewed and confirmed --

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  He reviewed the amalgamated statement but he's

Page 12745

 1     not the one that puts the amalgamated statement together, if I can put it

 2     like that.  And also, in relation to paragraph 9, if Mr. Karadzic reads

 3     when he -- the witness actually does say that there was a lot of firing

 4     and they sometimes turned the weapons on the Svrake village.  So that

 5     sort of information is contained already in the witness's statement, also

 6     in relation to the sentence "People were wounded and killed," the

 7     footnote to that specific sentence takes Mr. Karadzic to the witness's

 8     prior statement where he says, four people were wounded and one was

 9     killed.  And that was a statement taken in 1996.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect to

11     Ms. Sutherland, we object to the amalgamated statements because they were

12     authored by the OTP.  As we move on, they get worse and worse, as far as

13     the Serbs are concerned.  And on the 6th of December, 1992, this witness

14     unequivocally stated that Sacir Fejzovic killed himself with this device

15     that he had made by himself.  So as time goes by, and as the OTP creates

16     more and more of these statements, the Serbs look worse and worse.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With respect to the amalgamated statements,

18     Your Honour, the OTP has been instructed by the Trial Chamber to prepare

19     an amalgamated witness statement or submit one testimony of a witness.

20     This witness has not testified previously before this Tribunal.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let us move on.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can we agree that the population had been warned by the JNA as

25     well to seek shelter and to take care of themselves because there would

Page 12746

 1     be operations under way?

 2        A.   The population of Svrake had not been warned by the JNA that

 3     there would be certain operations under way.  That is to say that the

 4     population of my village had not been informed by the JNA that there

 5     would be certain operations under way.

 6        Q.   Then who spoke to the population through a loud speaker and

 7     warned them to hand over their weapons, telling them that there would be

 8     operations going on?

 9        A.   Well, it was done by the local Serbs.  The local Serbs.  They

10     used a loud speaker, issuing warnings.  There were all sorts of threats

11     issued as well.  At any rate, the local Serbs were calling upon people to

12     leave the village.  In these threats they did not say that it would be

13     the JNA that would attack or whoever.  They were just calling upon the

14     population to leave the village.  And as for the people themselves, why

15     would they leave their homes of their own accord, just like that?

16        Q.   Let us see that -- or, rather, let us see what you said in

17     1D3350.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have that back?  Can we have

19     the next page?  Next one, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You said that two of your representatives went to negotiate and

22     received guarantees that they could leave and they did leave with one

23     group, and another group was left behind and that group was taken to the

24     barracks, right?

25        A.   We talked about that yesterday.  It's not two groups.  It is one

Page 12747

 1     and the same group.  The local Serbs and members of different armies cut

 2     it off.  There was just this one group, this one column, that was cut off

 3     by the local Serbs, the army and all sorts of other formations that were

 4     there.

 5        Q.   All right.  Yesterday we saw that that was not the case, that

 6     they did not inform you and that you left in a great rush only after

 7     them, and that that is why you were not included in this announcement

 8     that pertained to the first group.  So you were warned through

 9     loudspeakers that the population could seek shelter while operations were

10     under way, right?

11        A.   That is not right, Mr. Karadzic.  Now you are misstating what we

12     discussed yesterday.  We did not discuss that yesterday.  These two

13     gentlemen who went to negotiate with the local Serbs, familiarised me

14     with the agreements that had been reached.  However, the two of them did

15     not familiarise the entire village with that.  However, I went, together

16     with my co-workers, to warn the rest of the people in the village about

17     this, and to tell them that we should leave the village in an organised

18     manner.

19             It is a fact that these two and part of the column left before

20     the set deadline.  That is to say, before the entire village managed to

21     get together at this point of departure.  So this column that they

22     started was one column.  And it was just cut off, and part of that column

23     was taken to the Semizovac barracks.  There was no mention whatsoever of

24     one column leaving and another one having who knows what happen to it.

25     It was the entire population of the village that was involved.

Page 12748

 1        Q.   Let us see what happened exactly in the barracks.  There were

 2     about 400 people there, right?

 3        A.   Roughly.

 4        Q.   The next day, after the night was spent within the barracks

 5     compound, women, children, the elderly, civilians, were returned into the

 6     village.

 7        A.   I was among the first to be taken out of the barracks, and

 8     I found out only a few days later that women and children were taken back

 9     to the village and that men from the barracks in Semizovac were taken to

10     Naka's garage, close to the Vogosca flyover, and after that, they were

11     returned to Svrake, but they were supposed to report to Planjo's house.

12     Later on, it turned into everyday detention for them.  28 villagers from

13     my village were taken in an unknown direction, sometime in mid-June, from

14     that particular location, and to this day, no one knows what happened to

15     these 28 persons except for three of them whose mortal remains we found

16     after the war in the bed of the Bosna River near Visoko.

17        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, that is part of one of my next questions.  We'll

18     get to that.  That is a very important thing.  So were you with these

19     people who were in Naka's garage, and did you spend 33 days there, or

20     were you taken further immediately?

21        A.   I was immediately taken to the bunker, but on one occasion they

22     took me from Naka's garage, where I spent one night, and almost half of

23     the next day.  Actually, on one particular day, they took me from the

24     bunker to Naka's garage.  I spent the night there.  So I had the

25     opportunity of seeing that in this facility of Naka's garage, there were

Page 12749

 1     150, or perhaps even more than 150, villagers from my village.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So nine of you were detained in the bunker.  You

 3     mention or you accepted that the Serbs knew what you had been doing.

 4     Today we read that you were the person who raised combat readiness there.

 5     Yesterday, we saw, from your very own words, that you smuggled a mortar

 6     and mortar rounds.  However, you said that among these nine, there were

 7     some for whom you did not know why they had been detained in the bunker.

 8     Are you trying to say that there was some personal revenge involved

 9     there, because one of them was a teacher and then one of his students was

10     after him?  Could you try to deal with this as briefly as possible?  If

11     it wasn't the case of personal revenge in your personal case, because you

12     were involved in preparing the defence, what about all these other

13     people?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic puts about four or

15     five statements and then says try and deal with this as briefly as

16     possible and then goes on again.  So he needs to put a question and get

17     an answer, and a question and answer.

18             JUDGE KWON:  It's about time, Mr. Karadzic, to -- for your skills

19     to have improved.  One by one, and be simple in putting questions.  But

20     can you answer the question or shall I ask the accused to reformulate his

21     question?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since Mr. Karadzic

23     said a few things that were untrue in relation to what I did, I wish to

24     say that I did not smuggle a mortar.  We took it away from the local

25     Serbs at the check-point.  How come they had it?  I did not smuggle

Page 12750

 1     anything.  Smuggling means that you are buying and reselling things for

 2     personal profit.

 3             As for the specific question, whether there was any personal

 4     revenge involved, in this group of nine men from Svrake, there weren't

 5     any teachers who were there with me.  Obviously the teacher that he is

 6     actually referring to is the man who was brought in much later, not

 7     together with these nine men from Svrake.  But I would not say that it

 8     was a question of personal revenge or anything like that.  Quite simply,

 9     it was something coordinated that was done by the local Serbs.  For

10     instance, before my village was attacked, Jovan Tintor, as the leader of

11     the local organisation of the Serb Democratic Party and president of the

12     Crisis Staff, almost a day before my village was attacked issued an order

13     in relation to the Kontiki bed and breakfast, that is better known as

14     Kod Sonja.  He declared it to be his staff.  And that is what they had

15     intended to do, that they would bring certain people detained in there,

16     in the bunker, and it so happened that I was one of them.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Let me tell you something.  A moment ago

19     I recapitulated what you said yesterday, that, yes, you were smuggling,

20     but I mean it wasn't smuggling for the sake of selling something.  You

21     managed to get a mortar into the town of Sarajevo through Serb lines,

22     surreptitiously and also a few mortar rounds.

23             And now you mentioned Jovan Tintor.  Do you agree or should we

24     look for a document, that Jovan Tintor only had this building handed over

25     to the Ministry of Justice and that the prison was something that the

Page 12751

 1     Ministry of Justice planned, not Jovan Tintor?

 2        A.   As for the facilities that were used for detaining the non-Serb

 3     population, they could be subdivided, as it were.  Jovan Tintor, as the

 4     president of the local organisation of the SDS in Vogosca and president

 5     of the Crisis Staff, did have influence over the local authorities, the

 6     establishment of local authorities --

 7        Q.   Oh, please.  This is a very restricted question.  You mentioned

 8     that Jovan Tintor decided to detain people and that he intended to use

 9     Planjo's house for those purposes and that he designated it for that.

10     Jovan Tintor, as a local functionary, approved that it be handed over to

11     the Ministry of Justice.  Was Planjo's house under the Ministry of

12     Justice, the department for sanctions, and for keeping captives and

13     detainees?

14        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you are constantly trying to put words in my mouth.

15     I said that by his order, Mr. Jovo Tintor placed Kontiki and the bunker

16     as the facilities for detention.  As for Planjo's house, it had been a

17     detention facility throughout the whole period.  I think that sometime in

18     mid-July 1992, the local authorities issued an order, and by this order,

19     it was placed at the disposal of the Ministry of the Interior.  And even

20     before that order, Planjo's house was used to detain people from Svrake.

21        Q.   Can we now look at 1D3351.  On the 6th of December, it was quite

22     clear to you how Sacir was killed, and then on the 26th of December --

23     can we have the next page, it's 1D3351.  This is your statement from

24     1992, can we look at page 3?  The first complete sentence reads:

25             "As a result of this operation, Sacir Fejzovic was killed, son of

Page 12752

 1     Smajo, and four people were wounded."

 2             On the previous page it says that the JNA bombed Svrake with

 3     two aircraft, and that Sacir Fejzovic was killed as a result.  Only two

 4     weeks later, you have completely twisted this whole story and attributed

 5     this to the Serbs.  Why did you you do that?

 6        A.   The fact is that Sacir Fejzovic was killed during these war

 7     operations.  In my previous statement I only clarified it to the effect

 8     that I wasn't sure whether he was killed by a bullet from the Serbs or

 9     whether he died of a self-inflicted wound.  So I wasn't determining

10     anything.  I just wanted to state the fact that one person was killed and

11     four were wounded.  And I don't see anything that is in dispute here,

12     because there is a possibility here that this was a self-inflicted wound.

13        Q.   But on this page, where Hajrudin Djulovic is mentioned and

14     Senad Kevla [phoen] reached an agreement but failed to inform the

15     population, but rather, on the 5th of May, people set off in a

16     disorganised way so that the enemy forces let a small portion of the

17     population to pass through.  So we are finished with this.

18             Now, when you were in the bunker, are you talking about the

19     bunker next to Sonja's restaurant?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Was this facility fenced?

22        A.   Are you talking about the bunker itself or the entire facility of

23     Kontiki guest house?

24        Q.   Where you stayed, were this whole compound secured by a fence?

25        A.   On the side facing the local road, I think there was a -- there

Page 12753

 1     was a hedge, and there were guards posted by the prison management.  So

 2     on the side facing the road that connected Semizovac and Vogosca was a

 3     kind of hedge, maybe there was also a fence there, but I'm not quite

 4     sure.  It might have been concealed by this greenery.  And there was a

 5     gate leading into the compound, whereas on the other side, where the

 6     railroad tracks were, there was no fence.

 7        Q.   So a hedge needs time to grow up; is that correct?

 8        A.   I suppose so.  I don't know how it looked before.

 9        Q.   There was no wire fence, and when you went out you were not

10     confined in a wired area?

11        A.   When we were going out from the bunker, there was no wired or

12     mesh fence, but the whole compound was fenced, or rather, restricted from

13     one side by the railroad and the other side by the hedge next to the

14     road.  So that constituted a kind of physical barrier in which there was

15     a gate leading to the restaurant.

16        Q.   Thank you.  At one point in time, the Serbs brought mattresses

17     from the gym for you to sleep on them, and these became soaked later by

18     rain; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is it correct that the inmates had been roasting lambs on stakes

21     whenever delegations came to visit them, for example, UNPROFOR?

22        A.   The bunker inmates were taken out quite often to perform a kind

23     of -- all kinds of jobs, including roasting lambs when some celebrations

24     were held, and that included the visit by UNPROFOR.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please put a pause between the answer and your

Page 12754

 1     question.  You make the life of Judge Lattanzi, who has just recovered,

 2     very difficult.  The French interpreters are relying on the English

 3     translation, so you have to further slow down.  Let's proceed.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  One more reason for me

 5     to make an effort.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is it true that some detainees would go to the well to fetch

 8     water and that they picked pears on the way?

 9        A.   It is a fact that some detainees were taken to the well which was

10     in close proximity to the Kontiki guest house.  Now, whether they picked

11     pears on the way, I suppose they did.

12        Q.   Were they being taken there or were they being sent to the well

13     to fetch the water?

14        A.   They were taken from the bunker, but I don't know whether from

15     the Kontiki, they were let go to go there on their own.  However, I saw

16     quite often that these detainees were accompanied by guards.

17        Q.   But sometimes it happened that they had no escort but that you

18     were, rather, sent away to the well to bring water and that on the way

19     they would pick pears and bring them back; is that correct?

20        A.   Look, yesterday you spoke about various interpretations and

21     translations.  When we say that people were taken out of the bunker to

22     carry out jobs, including the fetching of water, I could not have known

23     whether they were taken from the Kontiki guest house and whether they

24     were escorted by the guards.  But I think in most cases, they were

25     accompanied by the guards who were providing security for the Kontiki and

Page 12755

 1     the detention facility as a whole.

 2        Q.   Did you tell your people, after you escaped, that you had seen

 3     and identified General MacKenzie, when he came to visit?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the name of the

 5     place.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a statement given before

 7     representatives of UNPROFOR or the international community, I explained

 8     under which circumstances I saw General MacKenzie.  However, after I left

 9     prison, and in the context of the statements that I gave at the time,

10     I mentioned in passing visits paid by representatives of the

11     international community, specifically UNPROFOR.  However, in it my

12     statements given in early 1993, I wasn't able to confirm that in the

13     context relating to the account of the visit of UNPROFOR to this

14     facility, that were given by some other detainees, or members of the

15     Serbian army, such as Borislav Herak and Sretko Damjanovic, as well as

16     some of the inmates of the bunker who had often been taken to do the

17     roasting of lambs, so in my statements given in early 1993, it was not

18     possible for me to confirm, based on their stories, the fact that I saw

19     UNPROFOR coming to the area.  All I knew was what I heard from these

20     inmates who told me that they had come to that area.

21             Sometime towards the end of 1994, I subsequently recalled a

22     situation when a Serbian soldier whom I hadn't known before, because he

23     was not part of the security detail in the prison, who came to take me

24     out of the bunker and take me in an unknown direction.  Because he was

25     treating me in that way, I had an opportunity to see in front of the very

Page 12756

 1     restaurant certain UNPROFOR vehicles.  I did not link this event at the

 2     time with UNPROFOR visits to this location irrespective of the fact that,

 3     for days before that, the prison management were speaking about a visit

 4     by members -- representatives of the international community and

 5     General MacKenzie.  I just was aware of this kind of situation and

 6     I heard guards saying that Mr. Tintor had appropriated or misappropriated

 7     in a certain way a number of UNPROFOR vehicles.  I thought that that was

 8     the situation in which they would use one such vehicle to transport me to

 9     Pale or somewhere else.

10             Now, in those circumstances, I noticed a number of people dressed

11     in UNPROFOR uniforms, and among them, I noticed an individual about whom

12     I was not aware at the time that that was General MacKenzie.  I learned

13     that only much later when I saw on TV.  It reminded me that it was

14     possible that general himself was there in the area.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I will kindly have to ask the Chamber to give me some time

17     tomorrow as well because you are giving me really lengthy answer.

18             Now, is it true that in the BH media, a campaign was launched

19     against General MacKenzie in which there were allegations that the Serbs

20     pimped minor Muslim girls to him at the restaurant?  Do you remember that

21     campaign?

22        A.   Yes.  I remember that people were making statements to that

23     effect, and the possibility that something like that happened.  However,

24     I was in Kontiki, and I knew that representatives of the international

25     community came to visit us and I know that on such occasions, lambs were

Page 12757

 1     roasted and all these feasts were prepared, but I couldn't know any

 2     specifics about what this was all about.  There were situations like

 3     this.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can we just stick to "yes" or "no"?  After your

 5     escape, did you state that you had seen and recognised General MacKenzie,

 6     and that at the time, there were four girls loosely dressed and that it

 7     you couldn't believe that that was attributable to such a reputable

 8     general?

 9        A.   No.  I was not involved in these intrigues targeting

10     General MacKenzie because this visit of his to Kontiki was being

11     discussed by the Serbs, such as Borislav Herak and Sretko Damjanovic, who

12     were detained alongside me.

13        Q.   Do you want to confirm that Borislav Herak and Srecko Damjanovic

14     were convicted by the Bosnia-Herzegovinian court of murder of people who

15     later on turned out to be alive; "yes" or "no"?

16        A.   I am not quite familiar with the grounds on which they were

17     convicted.  I know that one of the persons charged, whether

18     Sretko Damjanovic or the other one, one of the victims appeared to be

19     alive and his sentence was reduced.

20        Q.   Or he was maybe acquitted because it was decided that everything

21     was fabricated and based on lies?

22        A.   No.  He wasn't -- Sretko Damjanovic wasn't acquitted.  He was

23     sentenced to eight years in prison and the time spent in prison during

24     trial was credited to his total sentence.

25        Q.   Were you a human shield?  Were you used as human shield once?

Page 12758

 1        A.   Yes, I was.

 2        Q.   Were you taken out of the bunker to perform labour?

 3        A.   Yes, I was.

 4        Q.   Can we now look at 1D3356?  How many times were you taken out for

 5     work assignments from the bunker?

 6        A.   I was taken from the bunker twice, but throughout the whole

 7     period of my detention, I was taken out six times tops, but specifically

 8     twice from the bunker.

 9        Q.   All right.  Can you see that this is an interview that you gave

10     to Lars Nielsen in 1994, a police inspector of the United Nations?  Do

11     you remember that he interviewed you?

12        A.   Yes.  I remember that they talked to me.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You told him that you escaped on the 5th of December,

14     after being used as a human shield, live shield.  Is that what you said?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can we now get -- just one moment, please.  Could all the

17     participants please take a look at this first page before we move to the

18     next one?  It states here -- I will have to read in English here:

19             "[In English] The witness explained that there was no well

20     situated on the plot.  He knew, however, that there was a well somewhere

21     east of the plot.  He knew that the well was located near the pear tree.

22     He knew this because when people had been sent for water, they often

23     brought back pears.  Most of the time it was Hido, Ahmed, and

24     Zornic, Zlatan, who were sent to the well."

25             [Interpretation] And then on page 2 it says that there was no

Page 12759

 1     fence on the northern side of the restaurant, that the parking lot was on

 2     the eastern side, and that there was a green fence, a hedge, you have

 3     said that, and that there was no barbed wire fence; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that is right.

 5        Q.   And then it goes on to say a little bit further along:

 6             [In English] "At the end of May 1992, beginning of June 1992, the

 7     prison held about 40 male prisoners.  These were held in the bunker,

 8     together with one woman.  In the barracks were held four girls from the

 9     village Vogosca.  He did not know them by name but he recognised their

10     faces.  He assumed that they were Muslims."

11             [Interpretation] Were they waitresses or were they something

12     else?  Because you say here, "He assumed" so you assumed something; is

13     that right?  Did you know were they waitresses or were they something

14     else?

15        A.   Those girls were not waitresses in that location, and since

16     during those days I was frequently taken out to a hut that was between

17     the bunker and the Kontiki guest house, I had the opportunity to see

18     those girls.  I had the opportunity even to hear when the prison warden,

19     Branko Vlaco, was giving certain instructions to the girls, how they

20     would behave towards the guests.  I didn't know which guests were in

21     question at the time, but judging by their expression I could see that

22     these were persons there who had been brought from outside of the

23     locality of the territory of the Kontiki guest house, and they were not

24     part of the restaurant staff at the guest house.

25        Q.   Are you saying that men and women detainees were permitted to go

Page 12760

 1     out, but at the time they were accompanied by armed guards?  Are you --

 2     then you speak here about how you got these mats.  Can we look at page 3.

 3     Can you please tell us how you identified General MacKenzie, and you talk

 4     about it on this page?  What did you notice about him that made you

 5     convinced that it was him?

 6        A.   Well, it's described there.  I don't have anything particular to

 7     add other than just something that is not indicated in the statement.  I

 8     don't know because it's an English translation so I don't know exactly

 9     what is written there, but I think that that person that I later

10     identified as General MacKenzie had an unusual watch on his wrist.  It

11     was a bit larger than what I had had the opportunity to see, in terms of

12     watch size before.  But everything else is in the statement.

13        Q.   It says:  "MacKenzie was dressed in green battle dress.  [In

14     English] His shirt sleeves were rolled up."

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have a copy of the statement

17     that's been translated into B/C/S if it -- to assist the witness.  This

18     was disclosed to the Defence a few days ago.

19             JUDGE KWON:  But not yet uploaded in the e-court?  Yes, a hard

20     copy can be provided to the witness.

21             Shall we take a break, Mr. Karadzic, now?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Trial Chamber, in view of

23     these very long answers, allow me a bit more time?

24             JUDGE KWON:  How much more would you need?  You have half an hour

25     left.

Page 12761

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, at least the next session.

 2     The witness gave a lot of statements, testified in a lot of cases, and

 3     it's very important, all of this, for the Trial Chamber to be able to

 4     have an insight into all the things that this witness said.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Conclude your cross-examination in an hour's time.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We will resume at 11.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Well, in order to keep it short, I kindly ask you to reply with a

15     "yes" or "no" wherever possible.  Is it correct that in different

16     statements you cited different number of times that were you taken out

17     for work assignments while you were at the bunker?

18        A.   Yes, that is correct, but mostly it was not more than six times

19     altogether.

20        Q.   Is it correct -- excuse me, is it correct that you stated that

21     you were taken out twice, four times, seven times?

22        A.   See, when we are talking about being taken out of prison,

23     I talked about the more significant times that I was taken out.  I went

24     out of the bunker compound a number of times.  But these six times, two,

25     four, six times, that was when I was in some way exposed to firing from

Page 12762

 1     both sides of the separation line, and when I was doing some more

 2     difficult assignments that prisoners were taken out to carry out.  And

 3     this was six times at the most.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in one statement you said that you

 5     were never used as a human shield?

 6        A.   The use of human shields and what is a human shield is something

 7     that one cannot know unless they experience it.  My escape from prison

 8     involved the classic use of human shields.  However, when I went out to

 9     do certain work assignments, in a way I could also be considered as a

10     human shield because the jobs that we were doing were in the areas

11     between the two armies, in the areas of separation between the Serbian

12     army and the Bosnian army.  On the 5th of December, when I escaped from

13     prison, I was in an actual human shield situation where I was exposed, in

14     front of the Army of Republika Srpska, facing the JNA.

15        Q.   Hides behind the grandfather in order to fire at the bear.  Does

16     that mean that you were placed in front of Serbian soldiers who were

17     advancing and you were in the role of a human shield?  When did this

18     happen?

19        A.   The most significant human shield situation where I was -- where

20     I was -- that I was in was on the 5th of December, when I escaped from

21     the prison where I was kept captive.  The Serbs placed us in front of

22     them.  We were carrying ammunition boxes, they placed heavy weapons on

23     the shoulders of some prisoners and were pushing them in front of them.

24     We were practically walking in front of them so that we would be exposed

25     to Bosnia-Herzegovina army fire, and at the same time, in case we

Page 12763

 1     encountered an explosive or a device or a mine, we would be the first

 2     ones to trip or to be exposed to these explosive devices.

 3        Q.   So you were a live target or a human shield, is that the same

 4     thing to you?

 5        A.   I'm sorry.  I was a human shield, and at the same time, I served

 6     as a live target for the other side.  We were used as a kind of shield

 7     behind which the Serbian army soldiers could hide because they held some

 8     of us by the shoulders and were pushing us in front of them.  They also

 9     placed heavy weapons on our shoulders and they were walking in front, and

10     before that, they were warned that they were not allowed to bend over, to

11     try to seek cover in any way.  They were instructed to behave like human

12     live targets.

13        Q.   And in which statement specifically did you describe that?

14        A.   Wherever I was describing my escape.  Wherever I said that

15     I escaped, I said that I escaped from being a human shield.

16        Q.   Well, we will find that if we have time.  Please tell us, you

17     described that you were sent to cut trees, to do other things.  What were

18     the kinds of things that you did and is it correct that those who applied

19     to go to work got more food and more cigarettes?

20        A.   Well, there are different forms of torture that people who were

21     together in the camp with me were exposed to.  Those who went out for

22     work assignments, in order to be able to carry out these difficult tasks

23     given to them, they were given certain quantities of food when they were

24     doing these jobs.  Not infrequently, those of us who stayed behind did

25     not really get adequate quantities of food or were given that much

Page 12764

 1     attention from the Serbian soldiers.  While prisoners were taken out for

 2     tasks outside of the compound, we were sent to cut wood, that's what

 3     I did specifically.  We were sent for digging and covering up the

 4     trenches, whenever the lines moved forward, so mostly these were jobs

 5     involving trench digging between the line of separation between the two

 6     armies.  This was when the Serbian army was moving its lines forward

 7     towards the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Then they would release the

 8     prisoners into the area in front of them in order to dig the

 9     fortifications, in order that they could capture that area later.

10             At one occasion I was taken out with a group of prisoners to the

11     Ravne hill above Semizovac, this is a plateau that runs towards

12     Ravne Nabozic mountain from Semizovac, and in mid-August, we were

13     clearing the forest there, in order to create a clearing that was located

14     between the two armies, and that forest was exposed to a fire the night

15     before.  It was torched.  So besides being exposed to strong sunlight, we

16     also suffered from the heat from the fire that raged in that area

17     earlier.  And at the same time, we had to clear the scorched trees in

18     order to create a clearing, and at the time we were also suffering from a

19     shortage of food and water.  We were suffering from burns as well because

20     we were not allowed to drag those smouldering pieces of wood but we

21     actually had to pick them up and carry them to a place where that

22     material was going to be burned.  But those who were suffering from

23     exhaustion, who couldn't work, who couldn't run, were subjected to

24     physical torture.  They were hit and they were struck by rifle butts, by

25     the Serbian soldiers.  One of the fingers on my left hand was hurt and

Page 12765

 1     then later when I returned to the camp, for days after that I didn't get

 2     proper medical treatment for that injury, so that the wound got infected

 3     and was treated only after I escaped from prison.  This was after the

 4     5th of December when I crossed over into the territory under the control

 5     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, you're making this big salad of lies here.  Did

 7     the prisoners report voluntarily for work assignments?

 8        A.   There were some for which the detainees themselves reported.

 9     However, when it happened that in addition to agricultural work and

10     trench digging, the prisoners were being used as human shields, then

11     there were less and less volunteers.  So in the beginning of September,

12     hardly anyone wanted to volunteer for any kind of work because it was

13     well known that they could be used as human shields as well.  Or perhaps

14     they could be exposed to gunfire in other ways.

15        Q.   Please, wherever possible, just say "yes" or "no."  Did you

16     report for work voluntarily ever and, if so, how many times?

17        A.   I never volunteered to go out to work.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Who was mistreated in the way that you described and

19     was then beaten using rifle butts?  Give us a name.

20        A.   Suad Sosevic, Zahid Barucija and a few others who I cannot

21     remember.  I cannot remember their names.

22        Q.   Did you see that or did someone say that to you?

23        A.   I saw it myself.

24        Q.   Where?

25        A.   Suad Sosevic at the Ravne hill above Semizovac, Zahid Barucija on

Page 12766

 1     the Zuci [phoen] plateau.

 2        Q.   Who was responsible for them, then?  Who was it that escorted you

 3     up there, name and surname?

 4        A.   Well, I cannot give you the name and surname of the person, the

 5     soldier, who was actually beating him.  I didn't know his name.  But the

 6     responsible person on that line, in this zone, rather, was

 7     Dragisa Damjanovic.  So, at the time when he was mistreated, he was some

 8     kind of commander in the area.  Dragisa Damjanovic.

 9        Q.   How many guards did you have in the bunker, Mr. Muracevic?

10        A.   Since the number changed, it was, say, 15 or 20, but I cannot

11     give you any definite figure as to how many there were.  Around the

12     bunker usually there would be about ten soldiers, ten guards, in

13     different positions.

14        Q.   Did you know the names of the persons who were taking you out to

15     do that work?

16        A.   Most of the guards that were there -- well, we knew them but very

17     often it wasn't the guards themselves who took people out to work, those

18     who were guarding us at the place where we were held captive.  Various

19     persons came for this person, either members of military units or police

20     structures or some local Serbs, and I was not aware of what they

21     particularly did in that area.  So it wasn't the guards who invariably

22     escorted the prisoners to the locations where they worked, for which they

23     were taken out of the place where they had been detained.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So we cannot identify the Serb who mistreated these

25     two men because they were so weak, right?

Page 12767

 1        A.   Well, it's not that we cannot but I don't know.  Specifically,

 2     Suad Sosevic was mistreated by Ranko Jankovic.  He's the brother of a

 3     friend of mine from school, and he had some kind of a command position in

 4     that area.

 5        Q.   Have you ever you stated that before?

 6        A.   Well, somewhere, but I don't know whether it was included in the

 7     statements that are part of this sublimated statement.  There are a lot

 8     of statements.  There have been a lot of statements and I'm not sure that

 9     all of them are contained in this one.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned some people who came from time to time

11     and wore cockades, where?

12        A.   Usually on their caps, berets, head gear, right?

13        Q.   Thank you.  You say that some persons mistreated others but they

14     said that Branko Vlaco, the commander, should not find out about that.

15     Was it your impression that they were afraid of Vlaco?

16        A.   Branko Vlaco was the commander of the prison, so the logic is

17     that his subordinates were afraid if he were to find out what they did,

18     especially if they did something that he did not tell them to do.

19     However, sometimes some prison wardens and guards brought in persons who

20     we did not know, or dogs, or they themselves took part in the

21     mistreatment of prisoners, and on such occasions they would say to us

22     that we could not convey that to Brano Vlaco, the commander of the

23     prison.

24             However, when certain mistreatments took place, when tear gas was

25     brought into the bunker and things like that, in front of these guards

Page 12768

 1     and in front of Branko Vlaco, this kind of thing would happen but neither

 2     he nor the guards did anything particular to protect us.  I am not sure

 3     that Branko Vlaco did not know what his subordinates were doing.

 4        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, it would be a very good thing, and the Prosecution

 5     would appreciate it, if you would stick to the truth.  This way, you are

 6     just ruining your very own credibility.  And the --

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's not a comment that should be made by

10     Mr. Karadzic.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  You put a question to the witness.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You said that they were afraid of Branko Vlaco, and you even said

14     in some statements that guards did not mistreat you but that some guards

15     allowed unknown persons to enter the premises and mistreat people.  On

16     one occasion, when they threw some kind of gas in, the guards were trying

17     to save people; right?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Muracevic, you want the

19     reference for that?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I had the amount of time that I

22     had asked for, you'd have a reference too.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did you state that, sir?  That they were afraid that Branko Vlaco

25     would find out what they did?  That's one question, "yes" or "no"?

Page 12769

 1        A.   As for whether they were afraid or not, I do not remember having

 2     stated anywhere that they were afraid of this Branko Vlaco.  However, as

 3     a person whose -- who was their boss in a way, if I can put it that way,

 4     they should be afraid if they did something without him knowing about it.

 5     However, when I said that in prison not all the guards were extremists

 6     who mistreated the camp inmates, that was presented in my statement, but

 7     some of them were more extreme and they themselves mistreated us who they

 8     were guarding, but at the same time they also brought in other people to

 9     mistreat us.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You are wasting my time terribly.  I just asked you

11     whether they threatened you that the warden should not find out.  In

12     paragraph 11 of your statement, did you not say --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic said that

14     the witness said a certain thing.  The witness said that he didn't say it

15     and then he's telling him he's wasting his time.  He's simply answering

16     the allegation that's being put to him.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did you not say in one statement in respect of persons who

19     mistreated you, that they threatened you saying that the prison warden

20     should not find out about that, "yes" or "no"?

21        A.   Mr. Accused, that is just one situation in a sea of other

22     situations in which they and the prison commander coordinated their

23     intimidation of the detainees.  Well, there was a certain situation when

24     they took some money from a person who they brought into custody.  And

25     this person had collected that money in order to buy something for some

Page 12770

 1     other citizens.  And then they threatened him saying that they -- that he

 2     should not tell the prison warden that they had taken that money from

 3     him.  So that is that situation that you're getting at, whether they were

 4     afraid or not.  Of course, they were afraid if they took something away

 5     from someone and did not report that to the prison administration.

 6        Q.   And had they reported that, you say that they could get away with

 7     it, right, "yes" or "no"?

 8        A.   Sorry, no one took that money away from me but they did take away

 9     this money from Asif Sehic.  In the bunker we tried to resuscitate him

10     for three days because he was beaten so badly.  He said that when he

11     came, the guards took some money away from him and threatened him that he

12     should not report that to the prison warden.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask the Trial Chamber to

14     give me another session so that we go through all of the statements made

15     by this witness.  This is not a question.  This is a request.

16             Did you not say in paragraph 11 -- I'm going to read it in

17     English:

18             [In English] "The Municipal Crisis Staff of which I was a member

19     was involved in working on manning the police reserve formation and later

20     on working on the recruiting people into the new TO unit.  In cooperation

21     with the Municipal Crisis Staff I was engaged in acquisition of weapons

22     for the settlement of Svrake, Semizovac --"

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, these questions were all dealt

24     with with the witness yesterday.  I don't know why Mr. Karadzic wants to

25     go back over them again today, if he has very limited time.

Page 12771

 1             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   My question is whether it is true that you had dugouts where you

 4     hid these weapons.

 5        A.   We had no dugouts and we did not have any special weapons that we

 6     were supposed to hide in dugouts.

 7        Q.   But then we'll have to call up a document, a record of when you

 8     were heard as a witness on the 15th of March, 1993.  The Army of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina versus yours truly.  ERN page number -- I'll have to

10     rely on that, 00287259.  This is what you say.  Some hunting weapons that

11     we had we hid in bunkers, dugouts and cellars.

12             Did you have them all on the 2nd of May?

13        A.   Every house, or most houses, in my neighbourhood had certain

14     basements.  We didn't have any bunkers.  Bunkers are special

15     establishments that have to be built.  Now, in addition to housing

16     facilities, whether someone had dug out a trench or a small dugout or

17     something to protect oneself from gunfire that was aimed at our village

18     for months, it is possible that that kind of thing existed.  But it

19     wasn't that these were specific dugouts for hiding weapons that we didn't

20     even have, right.

21        Q.   Does that mean, witness, that we should not take your statements

22     verbatim?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?  Did you find the reference?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

Page 12772

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  65 ter number 22195 is the statement of the

 2     25th of March, 1993.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let us upload it and show it to the witness.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honour, a moment ago when I made a

 5     reference to Mr. Karadzic having very limited time, that's his

 6     understanding, it's not the OTP's.  He's had over four hours with this

 7     witness already.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Where can we see his reference to bunkers --

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Page 3 of the English translation and --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2 of Serbian.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND: -- page 2 of the B/C/S.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   While we are waiting for that, may I explain.  Today the witness

14     said that he had not been informed about what the MUP had been informed

15     about.  This is what I read from his statement and it shows that he

16     cooperated with the MUP.  And also what I said, that he was buying and

17     procuring weapons, and then he says that they only had hunting guns.

18             Ah, yes, now I'm going to read it.  It's the end of the

19     second paragraph, Witness.  The end of the second paragraph.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And in English, could you also get

21     the English version for the other participants?

22             JUDGE KWON:  At this moment, I don't think the English

23     translation has been uploaded.  But let's proceed.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   The end of the second paragraph, you say, "Near your village --

Page 12773

 1     or, rather, the military facility of Semizovac fire was opened at our

 2     village and for two days we put up some resistance with the few hunting

 3     weapons we had.  We hid in dugouts, shelters, and bunkers -- or, rather,

 4     basements."

 5             If that was not the case, can we not take your statements

 6     verbatim?

 7        A.   Sorry, you cannot say that you cannot take my statements as such.

 8     This is in context.  When you're fired at, you have to hide somewhere.

 9     I mean bunkers and dugouts, as I say here, it's sort of makeshift

10     bunkers.  It's not those that were fortified by concrete.  Before that,

11     during the attacks, people were digging dugouts to protect themselves

12     from the fire that was coming at them.  And that is what you can

13     establish on the basis of this statement.  It is true that we were

14     seeking shelter before fire.

15             But in your previous question, when you asked about bunkers,

16     dugouts and cellars, it seems that we had enormous quantities of weapons

17     that we were hiding in basements, bunkers, and dugouts.  After all, if

18     there was combat activity going on, we wouldn't be hiding weapons.  We

19     would be using it, possibly.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, after escaping, on the 5th of December,

21     1992, did you join the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina again?  You can say

22     "yes" or "no" now.

23        A.   After my escape from prison, I did join the Army of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25        Q.   Thank you.  The Army of Republika Srpska, the Sarajevo

Page 12774

 1     Romanija Corps, did they make it possible for you to see your mother in

 2     1993?

 3        A.   It wasn't this Sarajevo Romanija Corps that made it possible for

 4     me.  This happened in a very roundabout way.  Before the war, my mother

 5     was treated in the Kasindol hospital.  After I escaped from the camp,

 6     with the assistance of the local Red Cross and with the assistance of the

 7     International Red Cross, I managed to transfer my mother from the

 8     Kasindol hospital to Sarajevo where I lived.

 9        Q.   This will also require only a "yes" or "no" answer.  Does the

10     Kasindol hospital belong to the area of Sarajevo under Serb control?

11        A.   It was under Serb control.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3353, could I have that now,

13     please?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm actually having trouble with

15     LiveNote.  I can't scroll back up to the transcript.  I don't know if

16     that can be fixed by the technicians.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  One way of resolving is to restart but, okay, no

18     doubt the technician will look into the matter.  I have no problem with

19     mine.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, this is the Main Staff of the Army of

22     Republika Srpska addressed to the command of the Sarajevo Romanija and

23     Drina Corps, dated the 25th of November, 1993.  Can we now look at the

24     next page?  And it reads as follows:

25             "On Sarajevo-Grbavica road, and then via Pale towards Belgrade,

Page 12775

 1     the following reunion of the people with their family will take place.

 2     Number 1, Muracevic, Rabija and her son Muracevic, Eset," and now the

 3     remaining names are Croatian and Muslim respectively.  And it was signed

 4     by Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic, the Chief of Staff.  So he's giving

 5     permission to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to enable you to reunite with

 6     your mother.  Is that how it happened?

 7        A.   That is when my mother was exchanged.  With the assistance of the

 8     ICRC, my mother was transferred from Kasindol hospital to Sarajevo where

 9     I lived.  It is true that that is when my mother was transferred to the

10     part of Sarajevo which was under the control of the BH Army, and she

11     joined me.

12        Q.   You, as her son, Eset Muracevic, you said that she was exchanged.

13     What did the Serbs gets in exchange for her?

14        A.   As I told you, with the aid of the ICRC, my mother was reunited

15     with me and she came to live with me.  I have no information as to what

16     preceded that and what was the response of the Army of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The only detail I knew was that with the assistance

18     of the Red Cross, my mother would be transferred and that is what

19     happened.  But I didn't have an opportunity to see this document.  Maybe

20     it was hidden somewhere in the piles of documents, and I see some

21     signatures here.  I was offered at the time of reunification to sign some

22     documents.

23        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, let's go on.  Your mother remained living in the

24     Serbian territory while you were in captivity.  Then she was treated in a

25     Serbian hospital, and then, in November of 1993, at your request, she was

Page 12776

 1     released and she reunited with you; is that correct?

 2        A.   My mother was supposed to be placed at the clinical centre in

 3     Kosevo to receive treatment.  However, due to some prior treatments that

 4     he [as interpreted] had received in Kasindol, that is why she was put up

 5     there.  She stayed in that hospital, according to her words, and she

 6     wasn't maltreated by anyone there because she was an elderly person who

 7     suffered from high blood pressure and diabetes.  According to what she

 8     said after reunification, she had not had any significant problems, apart

 9     from the fact that she was worried that no family members came to visit

10     her.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted

13     into evidence?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1111, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  1111, yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have now to move to an important

18     document, and if the Trial Chamber allows me, on some other occasion, we

19     are going to demonstrate a whole number of incongruities that occurred in

20     the statements given by this witness.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, did you bring with you or did you provide a list

23     here - can we have 1D3334? - a list of citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24     killed in Vogosca by the aggressor army?

25        A.   That's part of the list that was provided in a sort of way, as

Page 12777

 1     part of my statements.  However, the final number that I reached of the

 2     people killed in Vogosca municipality that were under the control of the

 3     Serbian authorities was 294.  Those people were either killed or taken to

 4     an undisclosed location.  Many of them passed before that through the

 5     camps, Planjo's house and the garage and bunker, and some were killed in

 6     their villages.

 7        Q.   Let's stick to the documents.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Since we do not have the English translation,

 9     could you kindly read the first two lines, including the title,

10     Mr. Muracevic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this is one of the lists of the

12     people killed --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly read the document so that we can

14     hear the interpretation?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "List of the citizens who, during

16     the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the period 1992/1995, were

17     killed in Vogosca by the aggressor army, the army of Bosnian Serbs, and

18     whose burial places are not known."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   We are now going to demonstrate that these people that have

22     numbers next to them, at least those people, but not only them, we

23     identified with the assistance of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina as

24     people who rejoined the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and were subsequently

25     killed in combat.  The list that we received from the Army of

Page 12778

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina is 1D3355.  If we can have this list on the other half

 2     of the screen, so 1D3355.  I'm going to read now.  Adnan Puris, killed in

 3     combat, and is listed under number 50 --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think we are experiencing some technical

 5     difficulty.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We need to break for ten minutes.

 8                           --- Break taken at 11.43 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.55 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Mr. Karadzic, you will have 15 minutes.

11             THE ACCUSED:  15?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED:  I think -- I think I would have even more than 15.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Maybe 20 minutes but not more than that,

15     Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would the participants please look

17     on the right-hand side of the screens?  The Republican Centre for

18     Investigation of War Crimes is informing us in February of this year that

19     there was a list attached to this letter that had already been provided

20     to The Hague Tribunal.  I'm going to read this letter:

21             "Attached herewith please find the list in electronic form

22     provided at your request referring to members of the BH Army killed

23     during the war in 1992/1995.  This list had previously been provided to

24     The Hague Tribunal, and the Hague Tribunal placed these lists at the

25     disposal of the Commission for Srebrenica of the government of

Page 12779

 1     Republika Srpska and the archives of the commission are stored in the

 2     Republican Centre for Investigation of War Crimes."

 3             Number 1, I'm not sure if this list has been disclosed, and

 4     secondly, can we have the -- this list, 1D3348?  We need both the list

 5     that we saw earlier and the one which is listed as 1D3348.  This one is

 6     okay.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  1D3334.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now it's all right.  We have both

 9     lists.  Can we now find page 543 in e-court on the left-hand side of the

10     screen?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  453.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, you said killed by the aggressor army.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we have 1D3334 and next to

15     it 1D3348, and then within 1D3348 we need page 453 in e-court.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You say, and this list has been introduced through you, claiming

18     that these people were killed.  Do you make a distinction in our language

19     between dying and getting killed?

20        A.   Mr. Karadzic, on the left-hand side of the screen we see the list

21     of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on the right-hand side

22     is the list that I provided of the people who were killed in the

23     territory under your control.  The left-hand side list treats people who,

24     in a way, regulated their status as members of the armed forces.  So in

25     this list, it is not shown the circumstances of their death.  The people

Page 12780

 1     listed on the right-hand side of the screen are people who were in

 2     Vogosca under the Serbian control and they were either detained on the

 3     premises where I was kept, such as Planjo's house, the garage and the

 4     bunker, or were taken away from their homes and executed in a way.

 5             So the list that I provided contains the names of the people

 6     killed in the territory controlled by the local Serbs.  At the time when

 7     these people were killed, they were not killed as members of any armed

 8     formation of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, meaning that they were not

 9     members of a unit that was attacking the local Serbs.  They were -- they

10     lost their lives as prisoners, people who didn't have weapons, and were

11     in the territory under your control.  Most probably depending on the

12     degree of their engagement before taken prisoner, whether they were in

13     the reserve police or the regular police, their families probably had an

14     opportunity to regulate their status as members of the armed forces, and

15     the list that you are showing on the left-hand side of the screen shows

16     the people whose families managed to regulate their status as members of

17     the armed forces.  They were killed, though, in the territory under the

18     Serb control but they were not killed carrying weapons or a rifle but,

19     rather, as unarmed people.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please keep your answers short.  Are you

21     saying that Adnan Puris was killed in Vogosca as a prisoner?  If the

22     answer is yes, can you tell us where and when?

23        A.   When I came here, I provided a list.  I don't know if it was

24     given to you as well.  It contains the names of 294 people who perished

25     in the territory under the Serb control.  Maybe we can call up some of

Page 12781

 1     those documents because this particular list contains the details as to

 2     the place and date of their demise.

 3        Q.   Are you saying that Ibrahim Brkic was killed as a prisoner or was

 4     he killed as a combatant?

 5        A.   Definitely not as a combatant.  He was killed as someone who had

 6     been detained in the territory under the Serb control.  So he was not

 7     killed as a combatant who was engaged in fighting with a rifle in his

 8     hand but, rather, killed in the territory held by the Serbs and he was

 9     not armed.

10        Q.   Can you tell us when was Adnan Puris killed?  Can you tell us

11     that?

12        A.   294 people who --

13        Q.   When was Adnan Puris killed?

14        A.   Well, you can't ask me to give you such details off the top of my

15     head about nearly 300 people.  If you would allow me to see and look at

16     this list, I can give you this information.

17        Q.   Could the participants look at the number 50291, Adnan Puris,

18     born in Foca, lived in Vogosca, killed on the 21st of February, 1991.

19     "A" means "army."  Killed.  Not a civilian.  He was killed.  He wasn't

20     murdered.  You say that the family here of the late Adnan Puris was

21     smuggling something.  Is that correct?

22        A.   You're showing the list of persons on the left-hand side of

23     persons who were killed while they were in the armed forces.  Adnan Puris

24     definitely was killed in the territory of Vogosca, which was under the

25     control of your forces.

Page 12782

 1        Q.   When and where?

 2        A.   Perhaps we can call up the document that I brought with me.  I

 3     don't know if you've been provided that document.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I hope that we will get the document that

 5     you brought.  I don't have it.  I wasn't given it.  But let's move on to

 6     the next thing, sir.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  This was provided to Mr. Karadzic with the

 9     proofing note.  It's document number 13 which was attached to the note.

10             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, can you zoom in on the left document so

11     that we can read the columns?  The titles and the column.  Can you show

12     the first column, the first row?  Could you read the column for our

13     benefit?  Because we don't have the English translation, Mr. Muracevic.

14     Could you read -- one by one.

15        A.   First column is RB, I assume that that means ordinal number.

16     Next is last name, then name of the parents.  Then the first name.  Then

17     JMBG, unique identification number.  Then municipality of birth,

18     municipality of residence, date of death, and ethnicity.  And the cause

19     of death.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you read the first column underneath cause of

21     death?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says "Poginuo," "killed."

23             JUDGE KWON:  So the person we saw, Adnan Puris -- I'm sorry, let

24     me find it, yes, Puris, Adnan Puris, died when?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the 21st of February, 1995,

Page 12783

 1     according to this.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  According to this.  And you wanted to take a look at

 3     your documents that you brought with you?  Let's revert to the previous

 4     setting so that we can see the first name, Adnan Puris.  Do you have it

 5     with you, Ms. Sutherland?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  Mr. Reid is uploading it at the moment.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  Mr. Karadzic, please continue in the

 8     meanwhile.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to recommend to the

10     participants, first of all a piece of information.  This left-hand list

11     was given to the Army of Republika Srpska by the Army of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina in a mutual exchange of information about those who

13     were killed.  So I would like to draw everyone's attention to column

14     "Belongingness" or "Membership," where we have the letters, A and P.

15     Army, police and unknown.  And the column "Cause of death," there is

16     killed and unknown.  So "N" is "unknown" and "Poginuo" is "killed."

17             Can all the parties now, as soon as the documents are uploaded,

18     to look at the left-handed number on the right-hand list and that is the

19     number according -- under which the person is in the left list, in the

20     records of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were killed.

21     Can we look at the following page of the list on the right-hand side?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Are these members from Arab countries listed under 61 to 65,

24     Mr. Muracevic?

25        A.   I don't know if they come from Arab countries, but the documents

Page 12784

 1     that were found in the municipal building, these -- this was marked by

 2     the Army of Republika Srpska that these people were killed in that

 3     period, in that area.  I don't know who these people are.  They were

 4     killed in the area held by the local Serbs.  I don't know who they were.

 5     They were not brought to the facilities where I was detained.  I found

 6     their names in the part of the documentation that we found after the

 7     23rd of February, 1996, when we entered this part of the area.  And we

 8     found that among the documents that were left behind by the Serbian

 9     authorities.

10        Q.   Are you trying to say --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, bear it in mind that the Chamber does

12     not have the English translation of this.  So first thing you should do

13     is to ask the witness to read the handwritten part so that we can follow.

14     And whose handwriting it was.  And then put such questions.  Could you

15     read out what is written in by hand there, Mr. Muracevic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the list that I provided,

17     somebody added the numbers and specifically two, four, the five last

18     names that are circled, these are the names Majrem Abu, Maris Abu,

19     Imran Abu, Muraj Aub, and Talha Abu.  Somebody added in handwriting next

20     to those names, "Who are these Arabs?"  I don't know who added that.  It

21     was probably somebody from Mr. Karadzic's Defence.  They might have

22     marked that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Muracevic.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's the point I was going to

25     make.  The document did not have any of the numbers written down the side

Page 12785

 1     when it was -- when the witness provided it to the OTP.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Or the comment next to the names 61 to 65.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree that those comments, the note, has been

 5     made by the Defence?  Yes, thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.  On the left-hand side,

 7     the Defence put in the numbers under which these are listed in the list

 8     given to us by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As for this, "Who are

 9     these Arabs," it was probably an investigator from the Defence.  These

10     Arabs are not on the list of the Armija dead soldiers.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, who drafted this list, who compiled the list that

13     you brought?

14        A.   The list that we are looking at on the right-hand side is a list

15     that I made on the basis of my personal information and on the basis of

16     documents we found in the territory when we entered it on the

17     23rd of February, 1996, that was left behind by the Serbian authorities.

18        Q.   According to this, it turns out that the Serbs captured these

19     six Arabs, held them and killed them; is that correct?

20        A.   Based on the documentation that I was able to see, all the

21     documentation says is that they were killed on a specific day in the

22     Vogosca territory, but we couldn't decipher whether they were captured or

23     whether they were liquidated somewhere, killed.  I don't know.  There

24     were no circumstances listed as to how they died.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D335 now, please, on

Page 12786

 1     the right-hand side?  1D3335.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again I note for the record that

 3     the markings made on this document were not there when it was provided by

 4     the witness, so presumably the Defence have also made those.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic has agreed with it.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   May I ask you, Mr. Muracevic, to read the text that is above the

 8     names?

 9        A.   So we are talking about the document that is shown on the

10     right-hand of the screen and it is titled, "List of citizens who during

11     the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992 to 1995 were captured by the

12     aggressor soldiers, the Bosnian Serb army, detained at their camp in

13     Vogosca, and from there taken in an unidentified direction."

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at -- can we look at 5031, let's say.

15     Hajrudin Raonic Hajco, 50301.  Hajrudin Raonic Hajco, what do they say

16     for 50301?  Killed on the 16th of June, 1992.  Here it is, 50301,

17     Hajrudin, son of Rifet Raonic.  Vogosca, born in Vogosca, lived, killed

18     on the 16th of June, 1992, a member of the army.  You say that he was a

19     prisoner.  Where was he a prisoner?  Are you also trying to say that this

20     family also was messing with information?

21        A.   Mr. Karadzic, on the left-hand side, there is the list of persons

22     whose families did manage to resolve for their missing and killed and get

23     the status for them as members of the armed forces.  On the right-hand

24     list, all the persons who are on the right-hand list were captured,

25     detained by the Serbs in the Vogosca municipality area that you were

Page 12787

 1     controlling.  Specifically when you are talking about Hajco Hajrudin

 2     Raonic, that was one of the persons who was taken from the Planina Kuca

 3     camp in Svrake in June 1992 by representatives of the Serbian army, taken

 4     in an unidentified direction, and that was when this person was taken

 5     from this camp and has not been heard of since.  We don't know of his

 6     fate to this very day.  His body was never found, and he's still on the

 7     list of missing persons from the village of Svrake.

 8             The list also has Hasan Abaz under number 1, who was tortured

 9     horrifically in the camp.  He was beaten, made to somersault on his head

10     from a height of three metres.  He was exposed to homosexual relations,

11     he was forced into homosexual relations with other prisoners, and in

12     June 1992, this person was taken with a group of 28 Svrake citizens from

13     Naka's garage in an unidentified direction and we have not learned of

14     their fate to this very day.  Most of these people here, their fate is

15     unknown.  In the meantime, some of their bodies have been exhumed.

16        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, were you captured, just briefly, were you captured

17     and detained?

18        A.   I was detained by the Serbian army.  I was taken to the barracks

19     camp.

20        Q.   Yes.  We know all of that.  If you had been killed after 1993,

21     would you be listed as missing or would you be listed as somebody who was

22     killed?

23        A.   In the legal structures of the authority of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24     I would be listed as unofficial in the local commune of a certain

25     municipality, and probably my family would have tried to get me the

Page 12788

 1     status of a member of the army because members of the TO, the police, and

 2     the reserve forces, even if they were killed in detention camp, were

 3     considered as members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were

 4     killed.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I think now it's time for you to conclude your

 6     cross-examination.  We'll deal with the documents but come to your last

 7     questions.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, you claim that this list on the left-hand side,

10     which is an official document of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

11     where the status is killed, unknown, succumbed to injuries or wounds, are

12     you saying that list is incorrect and that what -- the list that you

13     brought you are saying that is correct and that we should not be taking

14     into account this list on the left-hand side; is that correct?

15        A.   The list that you are talking about on the left-hand side is a

16     list of names of people whose families, regardless of the fact that these

17     men were captured and detained, their families, because these people were

18     either members of the reserve forces, the Territorial Defence or of the

19     police forces, secured for them the status of members of the army.  So

20     this is a list of persons whose families managed to obtain for them the

21     status of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina regardless of the

22     circumstances of how they really died.

23             The list on the left-hand side are -- on the right-hand side is a

24     list of persons who were killed, taken away in an unidentified direction,

25     by Bosnian Serbs, and at the point of -- in time when they were killed or

Page 12789

 1     when they died in a different way, they were not part of the armed

 2     formations.  They were simply unarmed prisoners who were at the time held

 3     by the Serbian forces in camps such as Nakina Kuca, the bunker, Planjo's

 4     garage, and other things.

 5        Q.   Sir, Mr. Muracevic, do you have any proof that things are the way

 6     you say or should we just take your word for it?

 7        A.   Look, some --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the witness has answered the question

 9     already.  Whether you challenge it, whether it's correct or not, it is

10     subject of your further submission, but don't argue with the witness.

11     The witness said that on the left table -- side list, it is not shown the

12     circumstances of their death.  So it -- let's move on.  Or it's time to

13     conclude.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Well, I think, witness, sir, that these are dangerous lies that

16     insult these victims and these families, "yes" or "no"?

17        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I cannot understand this remark of yours.  It is

18     your intention to use this court to intimidate me and to make me forget

19     what I experienced.  On the right-hand side of the screen are listed

20     persons who were in detention in captivity in camps by members of the

21     Army of Republika Srpska.  They were taken away, killed, or taken away in

22     an unidentified direction from their places of captivity.  And, for

23     example, if we look at Alic, Enes, or any of these people have in the

24     meantime been exhumed.  Their bodies have been exhumed.  We have exhumed

25     a certain number, three persons, down river from that particular camp.

Page 12790

 1     It was some ten kilometres downstream from Svrake.  That's where their

 2     bodies were exhumed.  The other option was that all of these people on

 3     the right-hand side were captured in the places where I was, bunker,

 4     Planina Kuca, Naka's garage, they were in house detention, and sometimes

 5     we were would pass through areas where members of the Serbian army were

 6     keeping these persons captive.  At the point in time when they died, at

 7     their time of death, they were not part of any armed formations.  They

 8     were simply persons who were being held as prisoners, as detainees, or I

 9     don't know how else to describe them.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you.  Can these

11     three lists be tendered, please?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think we have seen four documents.  First 1D3334,

13     1D3334 and 1D3335, list A and B.  And a letter of confirmation, 1D3355,

14     and finally the list, 1D3348.  Are you tendering all of them?  Shall we

15     mark them for identification pending translation?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, Your Honour, 1D3334 and 1D3335, we have

17     read into the record the headings on the top of the document so I think

18     they can be admitted.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Ah, yes.  Yes.  We can admit those two documents

20     without having to wait for the English translation because we can read

21     them all.  So we will admit them, those two documents, with the caveat

22     that notations made on these documents were made by the Defence team.

23             And in the meanwhile, we'll mark for identification 1D3348 and

24     1D3355.  Shall we give the numbers?

25             The list of people -- only the columns can be -- should be

Page 12791

 1     translated not all the names.  So just the --

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I think that has been translated as well.  So we can

 4     admit that list as well, which is 1D3348.  It is document of 700 pages,

 5     more than 700 pages, yes.  That will be admitted.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The only thing, Your Honour, we would need to

 7     know what these other things stand for in the final column because I see

 8     some Ns and then some abbreviations.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But we heard what "poginuo" means.  And we heard

10     these Defence submission what N means and then --

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  What does "PODO.US.R" mean?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Can we have the assistance from the interpreters?

13     PODO --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may help, I assume that that

15     means succumbed to injuries or wounds, so wounded and then died later.

16     "N" can be "nepoznato," "unknown," or "nestao," "missing."  "Poginuo"

17     means killed in fighting.  "Ubijen" means "executed."  Membership, "A" is

18     "army," "P" is "police," so that means that there are no civilians on

19     this list.  There are only members of the army and the police.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Ms. Sutherland, do you have much for

21     redirect?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, maybe 15 or ...

23             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder whether we need to take a break or not.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Maybe 15 or 20 minutes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Then it's safe to have a break.  When did we resume?

Page 12792

 1     Since they haven't changed the tape we have to take a break now.  Half an

 2     hour.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I could just deal with the last

 7     document we were talking about?

 8             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. Sutherland, may I interrupt you for just a

 9     brief while to assist us in a very, very small matter?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Judge Baird.

11             JUDGE BAIRD:  And can I refer you to the statement of the

12     witness, the amalgamated statement, at para 13.  The attack on Svrake,

13     para 13.  You have it there?  The line, "People were wounded and killed."

14     Now, the conjunction "and" there is joining two sentences, is it not?

15     People were wounded and people were killed?  You agree with that.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

17             JUDGE BAIRD:  Well, now, you referred to us footnote 49, and you

18     said in his statement of 1996, he said that four people were wounded and

19     one killed.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  I mean, you know, they aren't the same, are they?

22     People were wounded on the one hand and one -- and killed, on the one

23     hand, and one was killed, on the other.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

25             JUDGE BAIRD:  What then would you want the Chamber to consider,

Page 12793

 1     if, for instance, it's addressing the issue of conflicting previous

 2     statements?  Which one?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness has clarified that the

 4     word -- that one person was killed and that's on the record.  So the

 5     sentence now reads, "People were wounded and one killed."  In fact, he

 6     said that four people were wounded.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  All right.  So therefore --

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Because the -- the footnotes to this statement

 9     are not in evidence.  It's simply the amalgamated witness statement is

10     and the footnotes are to assist the Defence if they want to go back to

11     find where the information that -- where we have drawn the information

12     from in compiling the amalgamated witness statement --

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  I appreciate that.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- and he can see --

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  So therefore when it reads, "People were killed,"

16     we should not take it literally as people, meaning more than one person

17     was killed.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, people were wounded and one person

19     was killed.  I take the point.

20             JUDGE BAIRD:  And one person was killed.  That is how we should

21     approach it?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much, indeed.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We haven't given the number for the last four

25     exhibits.  Shall we do that now?

Page 12794

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  1D3355 will be MFI D1112.

 2     1D3334 will be D1113.  1D3335 will be D1114.  And 1D3348 will be D1115.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, at one point in time, did you or did

 4     you not say that, in the meantime, you are going to produce all the

 5     inconsistent parts of various witness statements made by -- this witness?

 6     I'm trying to find that part.  Did you say so?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Sorry, I'm waiting for the

 8     interpretation.  [In English] I'm waiting for the interpretation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But in order to do so, do you not need to tender all

10     the witness statements?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  May I say what my idea was?

12     I wanted to seek leave to make this comparison and to tender these pages.

13     Not necessarily the entire material.  There are about 15 or 20

14     testimonies and statements.  Had they all been admitted, I would be able

15     to deal with it in my closing arguments but this way --

16             JUDGE KWON:  If it is not in the evidence we cannot look at it.

17     So that's why I turned to Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, it's unfortunate that he did

19     not have enough time to do this correctly so that we could have presented

20     them to the witness and gotten their comment -- his comment on them.  But

21     if you're minded to receive the statements, we would think that that's a

22     good solution, given the lack of time to use to -- for traditional

23     impeachment methods.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I disagree.  I think that the

Page 12795

 1     witness -- any inconsistencies that Mr. Karadzic deems in his prior

 2     statements, should be put to the witness that he has an opportunity to

 3     explain them.  And not simply after he's left the Tribunal to then

 4     produce a document.

 5             THE ACCUSED:  Then I need time.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We agree with you, Ms. Sutherland.  Now he's your

 8     witness.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Does it mean that I am going to get time?

10             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.

11             Ms. Sutherland.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, just on D1115 that's just been

13     admitted, the list of persons, the big long list, Mr. Karadzic asserted

14     that the word "poginuo," apologies for my pronunciation of it,

15     p-o-g-i-n-u-o, means "killed in fighting."  In fact, it's our

16     understanding that that word simply means "killed" and it can be a death

17     caused by unnatural causes or any other form of death, but simply, it

18     doesn't mean "killed in fighting."

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That has been noted.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We would invite the Chamber to seek input from

21     CLSS in relation to that matter.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we ask just the first page of that

23     document to be translated, to be safe.  Thank you.  That can be done.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting, "ubijen" and

25     "poginuo" mean completely different things.  If somebody is "ubijen,"

Page 12796

 1     "killed," and if he is a member of an army, although even if he were not

 2     to be killed in combat, if he loses his life, the status of his death

 3     remains the same, and his family is entitled to the same rights, if he is

 4     a member of the army.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  All those are matters to be discussed in the

 6     submission and to be clarified by the language expert.  But this is not

 7     the time to discuss it further.

 8             Ms. Sutherland.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

11        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, this afternoon, earlier today, at page 50,

12     Mr. Karadzic was taking -- was -- took you to one of the lists that you

13     had provided, a list of citizens killed, and you said that:

14             "That list was provided as part of my statements.  However, the

15     final number that I reached of people killed in Vogosca municipality that

16     were under the control of the Serbian authorities was 294."

17             First of all, that list, the earlier list, that was up on the

18     screen, that was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2001, was it

19     not?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I can have on the screen 65 ter number 23 --

22     sorry, 90236, please.

23        Q.   Do you recognise the document that's on the screen?

24        A.   I do.

25        Q.   And this was a list of 294 persons, and this list you provided to

Page 12797

 1     the Prosecution when you came to The Hague on the weekend; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   And is this the list that you were referring to earlier in your

 5     testimony?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   When did you prepare this list?

 8        A.   This list was created from the moment I was detained until

 9     I walked into this courtroom.  So we can take it until the present day.

10     That is to say that it was compiled on the basis of information that was

11     compiled after the war as well.  This list does include a large number of

12     people who were in bunker, Planjo's house and other locations where they

13     were detained.  They were taken from their homes and then they suffered

14     in the occupied part of the territory of Vogosca municipality.

15        Q.   And when you say this list was compiled from when you were first

16     detained until -- until today, if I understand you, does -- well, does

17     that mean that you're updating this list as we go or as -- as you obtain

18     further information in relation to exhumations, for example?

19        A.   That is correct.  Every new bit of knowledge that came after the

20     exhumations and after we found out about what happened to missing persons

21     meant that people were added to this list.  It is not a final or finite

22     list.

23        Q.   If we could just go to the last page, please, page 19, and that

24     is, I think, what you say at the bottom of the document, is it not?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's right.  This is a list of names, and

Page 12798

 1     then on the basis of exhumations or relevant witness statements, these

 2     are persons who may be considered to have lost their lives in

 3     Serb-controlled territory in the Vogosca municipality.

 4        Q.   When you say witness statements, are you referring to people

 5     coming to you in the municipality?

 6        A.   I'm referring to persons who were detained together with me in

 7     some of the camps or in the period when the territory of the municipality

 8     of Vogosca was under Serb control, they lived in that territory.  When

 9     the war was over in 1995, when we entered the area, we found about

10     100 inhabitants who were ethnic Muslims and who spent almost the entire

11     war in that area.  In most cases these were families that involved mixed

12     marriages and things like that.

13        Q.   And it was those people that provided with you the information?

14        A.   From these people, on the basis of personal knowledge, and also

15     in view of persons who spent some time with persons who had been killed

16     or who went missing from a certain area.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'd seek to tender this document.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You have to put it be marked for identification.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, until we have the document

21     translated.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does the Trial Chamber allow the

24     Defence to put a mark next to every one of these names of the persons who

25     are on this list denoting the nature of these deaths?  So can we bar

Page 12799

 1     table that kind of a document so that the Trial Chamber would know what

 2     this was all about?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll deal with that when it is filed.  I can't --

 4     I'm not in the position to give an answer to that question without

 5     knowing what it is about.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this document was disclosed to the

 7     Defence, so they may well have used it in cross-examination if they

 8     wished to.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will give that an MFI number.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P2397.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   Mr. Muracevic --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  Just one word.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to spare Madam Sutherland

16     of this remark of mine.  This was disclosed at the very last moment and

17     I've just seen it now.  I think that we got it on Monday, while I was

18     busy with other witnesses, so at the very last moment.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's move on.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, it is on the record that the

21     witness brought it on the weekend and it was disclosed on Sunday.

22        Q.   On pages 24 and 25 today, Mr. Karadzic asked you a question in

23     relation to was it a matter of personal revenge of things being --

24     happening to you in relation to the bunker, and the detention facilities.

25     And in your answer you said, quite simply, it was something coordinated

Page 12800

 1     that was done by the local Serbs, and then you went on to refer to a

 2     document by Jovan Tintor.  And Mr. Karadzic said do you agree, should we

 3     look for a document that Jovan Tintor had this building handed over, and

 4     you said, no, it was earlier in May and then sometime in mid-July.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 01509 on the

 6     screen, please.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

 8        A.   Yes, I do recognise this document.

 9        Q.   And this is a document that you brought on the weekend, however,

10     it has been an exhibit in -- a 65 ter exhibit in this case for some time.

11     But in relation to the document, is this the document that you were

12     referring to earlier today?

13        A.   This is the document that I mentioned, and that shows that

14     Jovan Tintor, as president of the Crisis Staff, ordered the owner of the

15     Kontiki bed and breakfast and her son to make available these premises

16     for interrogating detained persons.  That is to say that before the

17     attack on my village, they planned certain activities and they realised

18     that they needed premises for interrogating persons brought in.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2398, Your Honours.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Muracevic, the document --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, just one observation?  This

Page 12801

 1     was not issued by Tintor.  It was issued by some deputy of his.  And

 2     secondly, it is the civilian authorities that are requisitioning property

 3     and handing it over to the police.  We are not dealing with this in any

 4     other way but just saying this, but what the witness said is different.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  You can make your submission later on.  We all can

 6     read.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   And the later document you referred to, Mr. Muracevic, I will not

 9     bring up on to the screen.  It's already an exhibit in this case.

10     Yesterday, you were asked about your experiences, about documents,

11     certain documents, that Mr. Karadzic was mistaken when he was assuming

12     that you reviewed certain documents given to you by the state commission,

13     and you clarified that and said that it was documents that you found in

14     the Vogosca municipality and that you had provided to them.  But then you

15     also went on to say that -- that you did have an opportunity to review

16     an -- an audio tape in relation to a speech that Karadzic had made.  Do

17     you recall that?

18        A.   I remember.  The documents that we are referring to, we found

19     after the reintegration of the Vogosca area into the federation area,

20     after the 23rd of February 1996.  And most of these documents, I can say

21     almost all the documents, that have been presented today and as part of

22     my statements, are documents that we found either in the municipal

23     building in Vogosca or in some other facilities that were before that

24     under the control of the Serbs.

25        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, if I can pause you there, if I could -- I want you

Page 12802

 1     to look at a document now to see whether this is, in fact, the audio

 2     recording that you referred to in your transcript yesterday.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And I could have Exhibit P00958, please.  And if

 4     we could see page 6 of the English translation and --

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I'm going to object to

 6     this now as going outside of the scope of the cross-examination, and this

 7     really should have been -- if this was important to the Prosecution, a

 8     speech of Dr. Karadzic, it should have been put to the witness on direct

 9     examination.  But to bring it up now and deny us the opportunity for

10     questioning, I think, is unfair.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, could you tell us how it is

12     transpired -- it transpired from the cross-examination?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Because Mr. Karadzic was putting to the witness

14     that he was provided all these documents by the authorities, and then he

15     was going on to say that -- well, I can do it another way, Your Honour.

16     In relation to -- he went further on, there was a discussion further on,

17     in relation to the selling of the land, not being able to be sold to

18     Muslims, and that's at -- on page 12687 and 12688.  The witness made

19     reference to the fact that 215 citizens of Serb ethnicity, in relation to

20     the municipality of Vogosca, where there were representatives of

21     Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats, they sent a petition actually to this Vogosca

22     Municipal Assembly to ask for banning of sale of Serb houses to Muslims

23     and not to prohibit Muslims from building houses in that village.

24             If I could have 65 ter number 90235 on the screen, please?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask for Madam Sutherland

Page 12803

 1     to let us know exactly what this document is?  The Chamber doesn't know

 2     what this document is.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The document that's on the screen is a

 4     transcript of a speech by Mr. Karadzic in relation to the plebiscite of

 5     the Serb people in November 1991, which was what was referred to by the

 6     witness yesterday.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where was it given?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Which is not used at this moment.  Let's move on,

 9     Mr. Karadzic.  She is not using this.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I may come back to it, Your Honour.

11             In relation to --

12        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, did you write a book?

13        A.   Yes.  I wrote a book, "The killed and missing victims of crimes

14     in the Vogosca municipality area in the period from 1992 to 1995."  There

15     is an excerpt from that book of mine that we can see on the screen, where

16     I talked about a part of a statement by Mr. Karadzic around the time of

17     the plebiscite, when he addressed a meeting, and then in the footnote,

18     you can see that the source for that is the bulletin of the state

19     commission for compiling facts about war crimes on the territory of the

20     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In further text, the bulletin.  And that

21     contains all the information that I was referring to.

22        Q.   And when you mentioned this in your testimony --

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think this is just another

24     way of getting in the same topic which we again say is beyond the scope

25     of the cross-examination.  Whether it's the speech directly or his

Page 12804

 1     writing about the speech on some other occasions, it's the same thing.

 2     So we maintain our objection.  I wonder also if Ms. Sutherland could

 3     advise us of when this was disclosed to us?  We don't seem to recall it.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  This was disclosed pursuant to Rule 66(B) in --

 5     I will find the date.  Your Honour, if I may respond to Mr. Robinson,

 6     this is not simply a way of getting these documents in through another

 7     way.  I am showing during the cross-examination, and I should have been

 8     more clear, Mr. Karadzic, this witness, they were talking about

 9     Karadzic's speech, and where he said that land should not be sold to

10     Muslims, and the witness mentioned a document that he had seen that was a

11     petition of 215.  And Mr. Karadzic said, "Have you seen this -- where is

12     this in your previous statements?"  And he said, "I have said it before

13     several times."  I am simply taking the witness to -- to his book to show

14     that he did mention it in 2002, and we actually have the petition of 215,

15     which I would like to exhibit.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But I simply wanted to take the witness to his

18     book first to see if he would recognise this document.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, the petition I think is --

20     very clearly comes out of the cross-examination but Dr. Karadzic's speech

21     does not.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for another clarification

24     of when the book was disclosed to me?  If the witness has written a book,

25     the Defence should have had the book.  Secondly --

Page 12805

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The book was disclosed to Mr. Karadzic on the

 2     13th of October, 2009.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And the second question, everything

 4     turned on whether the witness saw my speech publicly or whether he got it

 5     from the state security.  Footnote 3 confirms that this witness was

 6     coached on the basis of documents of the state security.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  No further intervention.  Let's move on.

 8     Ms. Sutherland.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we go to the next footnote -- the next

10     page, please, in this document?

11        Q.   And do we see there, Mr. Muracevic, reference -- the footnote 4?

12        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.

13        Q.   And is that the document relating to the 200 -- the petition of

14     215?

15        A.   That is that document.  It's part of the documents that we found

16     in the municipal building which were handed over to be preserved.  That

17     is that document.

18             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Not receiving the translation, Your Honour.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have the footnote 4

21     as well as footnote 3 read by the witness so that the interpreters can

22     translate them?  Could the witness please read them out so they could be

23     translated?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Could you read footnote 4,

25     Mr. Muracevic?

Page 12806

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Footnote 4 states the archives of

 2     the institutes for the investigation of crimes against humanity and

 3     international law in Sarajevo, from now on referred to as AIIZ, number --

 4     inventory number 31185, citizens of the village of Krivoglavci,

 5     municipality of Vogosca, to the president of the Assembly of the

 6     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and others, beginning, "Esteemed

 7     gentlemen."

 8             This is something that the population of the village of

 9     Krivoglavci sent by Serb inhabitants.  It's a petition sent to the

10     Municipal Assembly of Vogosca and many other addresses, including the

11     president of the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Actually it's a document that I found in the

13     building of the Vogosca Municipal Assembly, and that was handed over to

14     the archives of the institute for them to keep the document, this

15     petition.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly like to ask the

17     witness just to read footnote number 3.  He's read footnote 4.  Let him

18     read footnote 3 so that we can see what is the basis for the testimony of

19     this witness, so that we can see whether he's testifying based on his own

20     experience or on the basis of archival material that was provided to him.

21     This witness is not testifying as an expert witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not -- but it's fair enough to ask the

23     witness to read out footnote 3.  Can we go back to page 32?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Could you read out note 3?

Page 12807

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me just

 2     a couple of words about footnote 4.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Sutherland will come back to you if necessary.

 4     At this moment could you kindly read footnote 3 for our benefit?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Footnote 3 states:

 6             "Bulletin for the state commission for gathering facts on war

 7     crimes on the territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina" in -- for

 8     the text referred to as the bulletin number 7, February 1994, pages 3 and

 9     4.  This is a bulletin that was printed and it was available to the

10     public.

11             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.  No, Mr. Karadzic.  Yes,

13     Ms. Sutherland?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just 4, can we look at 4 just to

15     see the year, please?

16             JUDGE KWON:  He read out and we can see it later.

17     Ms. Sutherland, please continue.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Can I have

19     65 ter number 90233 on the screen, please?  Your Honours, I'm sorry, I

20     don't have an English translation of this document.

21        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, do you recognise what's on the screen?

22        A.   I do.  This is precisely the petition containing 215 signatures

23     of citizens.  Not only did I find the document in the municipal building,

24     when we entered it in 1996, but as the secretary of the local commune,

25     I was present at the municipal council meeting when this material was on

Page 12808

 1     the agenda before the conflict broke out in the Vogosca municipality.

 2     This is one of the first documents that the delegates or the deputies, I

 3     don't know how they were referred to at the time, of the Serbian

 4     Democratic Party at the time, submitted to the Municipal Assembly of

 5     Vogosca.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I tender that document, Your Honour.  If we can

 7     go to the second page, actually, just to -- so that the witness and the

 8     Court can -- and Mr. Karadzic can see the second page.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  So the footnote 4 we saw before refers to this

10     document, Mr. Witness?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  But I remember that footnote 4 does not bear a date,

13     does it?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour, just an archive broad number of

15     the institute.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Are you tendering the excerpt of his

17     book as well?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  We can see the archive

19     broad number.  The one that is in footnote 4 of the book with the broad

20     number is what is in the stamp at the bottom of the document on page 2.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I see.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  3-1185.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering both documents, the excerpt of his

24     book?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think that's been read into the

Page 12809

 1     record, the relevant pages.  I would leave it for Your Honours and -- but

 2     I seek to --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, why don't you admit them both.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We will actually upload the cover page of the

 5     witness's book.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So we will give the numbers.  We will mark that for

 7     identification.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  About the book --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm having some problems, I apologise for this,

11     but looking at the disclosure letter of the 13th of October, 2009,

12     I don't find that the book is included there.  It's 20 pages long and I'm

13     looking quickly so maybe I missed it, and that's also a disclosure of

14     materials relating to the death of individuals in Bosnia pursuant to a

15     Rule 66(B) request.  And if indeed the book was disclosed to us in that

16     way, I don't think that that's really an adequate disclosure to prepare

17     us to cross-examine this witness, and I'm going to ask, unfortunately,

18     that we allow this witness or ask this witness to remain so that we could

19     review the book this evening and, if necessary, put further questions to

20     him tomorrow, unless there is a better showing of how this was called to

21     our attention.  It's our fault for missing it if that's the case, but we

22     truly did -- all of us are seeing this for the first time and I don't

23     doubt it was disclosed to us at some point, but somehow we didn't connect

24     it with this witness and we're not -- we are just taken by surprise by

25     the fact that there is some book written by this witness that we should

Page 12810

 1     have read it.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, in the index that was provided,

 3     it's -- the description is:  "Book by Eset Muracevic in relation to

 4     events in Vogosca municipality between 1992 and 1995, presented to

 5     Stephen Margetts by Bilal Hasanovic [phoen]."  So we gave the title of

 6     the book and the source of how we got the book.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And it was in 199-- in 2009.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  13th of October, 2009.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I thought it would be in the interests

10     of the Defence to admit that book but may I take it that you are opposed

11     to admitting those two pages of the book?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we are.  Simply because we don't feel we had

13     adequate notice of it.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit the petition only.  We mark

15     it for identification.  Pending translation.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P2399, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Ms. Sutherland.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we also have the document that was

19     referred to in footnote 3, but I don't think that that is necessary.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It's up to you, Ms. Sutherland.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, yesterday Mr. Karadzic, at transcript page 12678,

23     or 77, and again was talking about documents that -- that you had found

24     in relation to the number of persons that were no longer living in the

25     Vogosca municipality, and I offered the two documents yesterday to

Page 12811

 1     Mr. Karadzic as -- during his cross-examination.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 90230, and we

 3     apologise for the quality of this document in advance, Your Honour, of

 4     the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise the document that's on the screen,

 6     Mr. Muracevic?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   And this is a decision appointing a municipal commission for the

 9     1993 census and the -- it's being issued by the chairman of the

10     Executive Board of Vogosca municipality; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   And as a result of that decision, a further document that you

13     referred to yesterday was produced.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 90231 on the

15     screen.

16        Q.   Do you recognise what -- that document?

17        A.   I do recognise this document.  This is an excerpt of listed

18     inhabitants living in the areas controlled by the local Serbs relating to

19     this decision to form this commission, census commission.

20        Q.   And this is the first results -- the first results for the

21     Ticisko [phoen] districts and hamlets and it's dated the 17th of June,

22     1993.  You said that there were no inhabitants of Svrake left in the

23     municipality at that time.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S and page 2

25     also of the English.

Page 12812

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a remark.  This is not an

 2     official census but this is a list made by the municipality of those

 3     villages that were accessible to it.  So that it could carry out a social

 4     policy, that it could provide services to the inhabitants.  This is a

 5     list of persons who are living there and those who have moved there in

 6     order to be able to provide them with benefits, but there are villages

 7     where it was not possible to go but that doesn't mean that there is

 8     nobody living in those villages.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that comment was unnecessary.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You're not giving evidence and, if necessary, after

11     the re-examination, you may ask for further cross-examination.  The way

12     how you intervene during the course of re-examination is not helpful

13     today.

14             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   And we can see, Mr. Muracevic, can we not, for the village of

17     Svrake, that there are no Muslims residing there as of June 1993; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   In this document, you can see that there were no Muslims there.

20     Svrake was under the control of the local Serbs.  They could have gone

21     in.  They were in control of it, in that area, in that period.  All these

22     settlements that are referred to in this list were under full control of

23     the Serbian authorities.  Each one of these hamlets and villages could be

24     accessed by them.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document and

Page 12813

 1     I also seek to tender the document 90230 which -- which is the decision

 2     of Koprica which, in fact, says:

 3             "Pursuant to conclusions from the 70th session of the government

 4     of the Republika Srpska, a committee will be formed."

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Did we have the English translation?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, both of them will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P2400 and 2401, respectively,

 9     Your Honours.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm sorry about this.

11     We are dealing with some exhibits that we're really not familiar with,

12     but if you could go back to the petition, 90233, the 65 ter number, that

13     was -- you've admitted, I'm wondering when that was disclosed to us

14     because in look -- if you could call that up and look at it on your

15     screen, I think it would be useful --

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, that --

17     sorry.  We obtained that document this morning at around -- whatever the

18     fax header says on the top of the page.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  I think that should have been noted.  First of

20     all, they needed permission to add it to the Rule 65 ter list.  We just

21     noticed it ourselves when we were looking at it.  It's a fax -- it's the

22     2nd of March, 2011.  Otherwise we were under the impression that this was

23     a document that had been part of the 2 million pages that have been

24     disclosed to us sometime within the last few years.  Now we find out that

25     it was -- it's been offered without any motion to add it to the 65 ter

Page 12814

 1     list.  It's never been disclosed to us.  I think that it ought to be

 2     withdrawn from admission as a sanction for this kind of way of

 3     proceeding.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this is re-examination, not

 5     examination-in-chief.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The petition was specifically mentioned during the

 7     course of cross-examination.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, it was.  It was, but this is a document that

 9     hasn't been disclosed to us before.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if I may, I'm sorry to intervene --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's leave it.  Let me consult my colleagues.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Robinson, can you tell us, this document, would

14     you have been taken ex improviso by this, by surprise?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we are taken by surprise by this.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  You have been, have you?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  This petition was raised during the course of

19     cross-examination and we are of the view that the Prosecution is entitled

20     to present this document, and if necessary, the Defence is allowed to put

21     further questions about this document, given the timing of this

22     disclosure.  Let's move on.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour, it's the Prosecution

24     position that documents used in re-examination don't need to be disclosed

25     to the Defence prior to being used in re-examination.

Page 12815

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Prior to -- prior to being used, just before

 2     you start the re-examination.  I think so, yes.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  So, Mr. President, just so that we are on the same

 6     page in case this arises again.  Just as we do when we start the

 7     cross-examination, we e-mail a list of all the documents we intend to

 8     use, so at the very latest the Prosecution should disclose at the

 9     commencement of the re-examination these documents, not that it would

10     have made much difference but I understand that would be the procedure

11     for disclosure on re-examination.  If the document has not previously

12     been disclosed to us, then at the time the re-examination commences, an

13     e-mail should be sent to us and the Chamber in which the list of

14     documents to be used in re-examination are disclosed.  Wouldn't that be

15     could be consistent with the same principles that we operate under for

16     cross-examination?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but re-examination comes

18     as a result of cross-examination, and you know, we are doing this on the

19     fly, and if we -- something that is said five minutes before the end of

20     the cross-examination, we react to it by getting a document and putting

21     it to the witness in a certain circumstance.  And I think that by putting

22     this -- what is requested by Mr. Robinson is wholly unnecessary and

23     unworkable.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say a word?

Page 12816

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No.  I -- not this time, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do I have the right to respond to

 3     what Ms. Sutherland said with regard to cross-examination?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I said no, Mr. Karadzic.  Yes, the Prosecution is

 5     entitled to use documents which was not listed on the 65 ter list, if

 6     that topic is triggered by the cross-examination.  And not because of the

 7     timing of this disclosure of this document, but newness of the content to

 8     the Defence, we will allow the Defence to put questions, if necessary, on

 9     that basis.  Let's move on.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the newness of the content of this

11     document, it's not new information.  We have other -- another exhibit,

12     for example, which has information along the same lines as this one.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber was of the view that -- Defence was not

14     in the position to know the content of this petition.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What did I ask -- then I will be

16     granted additional time?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Only in relation to this petition.  Yes,

18     Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, following on from the decision pursuant to a

21     conclusion of the government of Republika Srpska to set up the census

22     committee and then the results of the census committee in June 1993, you

23     then went on in your testimony yesterday to talk about 13.157 people

24     being expelled from the municipality.  And Mr. Karadzic asked you about

25     that figure and where you got that figure from and you said that, you

Page 12817

 1     know, you had the documents and that you had brought the documents with

 2     you.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 90232 on the screen.

 4        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.  I compiled it by comparing the official census

 6     numbers in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991 and the census conducted in

 7     June 1993, by the Serbian authorities in the territory under their

 8     control.  By making these comparisons, I included only the settlements

 9     that they listed and that they -- that were under their control.

10        Q.   And when you say the documents listed in their document, that's

11     the document that we have just seen, the 17th of June, 1993, document?

12        A.   Yes.  I'm talking about these very documents.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to object.  This witness is

14     not a demographic expert or any expert at all.  He is an eyewitness.

15     Therefore, I need additional time for cross-examination.  Here we have

16     elements and data introduced herein that were not comprised by the

17     testimony of this witness.  And in addition to that, I feel that I have

18     been ambushed because there are things that I am not aware of and that

19     I wasn't warned about.  I'm talking about the book, the petition and the

20     REST of it.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic was querying with the

22     witness where he was coming up with this figure of 13.157.  This is

23     simply to show that the witness compiled this document from the Serb

24     figures against the 1991 census figures.  And the 1991 census figures is

25     65 ter number 00242.

Page 12818

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And this is part of the document he brought.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  He brought this document and it was disclosed to

 3     the Defence on Sunday.  I seek to tender --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This is handwriting by the witness.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We don't see any problem in admitting this but shall

 7     we mark it for identification?  Or is it unnecessary?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, on Monday evening,

 9     and this is an expert work produced by this witness.  This is a document

10     that we are looking at.  And I received it on Monday night.  It was

11     disclosed to me after I returned from the court on Monday night.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it doesn't take an expert to

13     compile a chart.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The weight of this document is to be decided by the

15     Chamber later on.

16             Yes.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I can just take the witness to the second,

18     third and fourth pages.  Just -- sorry, I should have done that before

19     I sought to tender it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, can you just explain to the Court what is on the

23     second, third and fourth pages, please?

24        A.   These are the results of the census, the 1991 official census

25     carried out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it refers to the entire

Page 12819

 1     Vogosca municipality.  Listed here are the villages and settlements that

 2     were also the subject of the census carried out by the Serbian

 3     authorities in 1993.  So by comparing the figures from the official

 4     census and the figures that they reached, we got the numbers that were

 5     mentioned in the previous document.  This is an integral part of this

 6     document.  It is the structure of Vogosca municipality divided into

 7     villages and settlements, and the number of residents per nationality

 8     that lived in 1991 in those settlements and villages.  Specifically, if

 9     we speak about my local commune of Svrake, that's the fourth row from the

10     top, there used to be 1.245 residents; Muslims, 1.036; 170 Serbs;

11     two Croats; 21, the others -- Yugoslavs and the others.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That information is already on the record.

13     Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I think it's safer to mark it for

16     identification pending translation.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P2402, Your Honours.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have no further questions.

20             JUDGE KWON:  The number is 2400, 2400?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI P2402.

22             JUDGE KWON:  02.  If necessary, Mr. Karadzic, as we indicated, we

23     will allow you to put questions in relation to the petition, the document

24     we saw previously.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I would also like to ask

Page 12820

 1     questions regarding the census, because this was not mentioned in

 2     examination-in-chief.  I just have a few questions.

 3                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, did you find this document in Vogosca

 5     municipality building in 1996?  I'm talking about the petition.

 6        A.   Mr. Accused, I found this document in 1996 when we arrived in

 7     Vogosca.  However, that was not the first time that I saw that document.

 8     I had seen it much earlier because as a secretary of the local commune,

 9     I attended meetings of the Vogosca Municipal Assembly and I had an

10     opportunity to be in the municipal building when this petition was

11     discussed and was on the agenda of the meeting, which is before the 1992

12     conflict broke out.  So that was in the period after the multi-party

13     elections and 1991.  I cannot remember exactly which session that was,

14     and on which date it was held.  However, I did see this document before,

15     and as a secretary of the local commune, I did not only see it, I would

16     regularly receive materials for the Assembly meetings, and as part of the

17     materials that I received for these -- ahead of these sessions I saw this

18     document as well.

19        Q.   Yesterday, after the adjournment of this Court, who did you talk

20     to?

21        A.   What do you mean, after the adjournment?  What are you talking

22     about?  Are you talking about the courthouse or somewhere in town?

23        Q.   Who did you discuss this document with today in order to obtain

24     it?

25        A.   I personally did not talk to anyone.  I suppose that the

Page 12821

 1     Prosecutor -- I personally did not talk to anyone about obtaining this

 2     document.  However, since the place of custody of this document is

 3     mentioned in the footnote of my book, I suppose that it was the

 4     Prosecution who received the document.

 5        Q.   Somebody should have been called at the institute and ordered

 6     this document to be delivered.

 7        A.   You are asking me something that I was not in a position to do

 8     anything about.  I did not contact anyone in Sarajevo yesterday,

 9     particularly not in -- with a view to obtaining a document.

10        Q.   So this document was in public domain in 1991; is that correct?

11        A.   Well, the petition was being mentioned.  However, I can't say

12     whether it was published in any of the media.  Looking at the number of

13     the addresses that it was sent to, I think that it was in the public

14     domain.

15        Q.   And this is not the original, because there is a note which says

16     that the original petition is being kept by the secretary of the

17     Republican Assembly and it can be reviewed if necessary.  Do you have the

18     date of this petition?  And there must be the date on the original, on

19     the incoming stamp when it was received by the BH Assembly.

20        A.   As a secretary of the local commune, I received copies of the

21     material that was being sent to all the deputies that were in the

22     municipal council.  So I did not receive the original that was received

23     by the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was anyway not necessary for

24     me to get the original.

25        Q.   So what is the connection that you establish between this and my

Page 12822

 1     information relating to my conversation with Izetbegovic concerning your

 2     quotation?

 3        A.   I did not establish any link between this petition and your

 4     conversation with Mr. Izetbegovic.  It was mentioned only in the context

 5     of your fiery speeches delivered with regard to the plebiscite, when you

 6     specifically and personally said that in the areas that were going to be

 7     under the Serb control, no sale of land would be allowed to Muslims or

 8     the construction of any residential facilities by the Muslims in the

 9     Serb-controlled areas.  I also quoted the portion in which you said that

10     each foundation made by Muslims would be blown up in those territories

11     and the petition itself was mentioned in the sense that in a certain way,

12     representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party who were on the municipal

13     council, one of the documents that was presented at the joint session

14     which was attended by the Serbs and Muslims alike, they were requesting

15     the ban on the sale of land by the Serbs to the Muslims, and not to have

16     them building houses in that village.  So this is the relation that

17     I mentioned.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You don't know the date, but do you know if I ever

19     said this publicly or was it a document that was relating to a party

20     meeting?

21        A.   By reading the footnote and I think I provided the -- an

22     explanation of where this quotation came from, what the source was, and

23     this portion that I quoted as your words, I made a reference to a

24     document that was publicly published in the bulletin, which is mentioned

25     in one of the footnotes.

Page 12823

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Ms. Sutherland?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic put the very same

 3     question to the witness yesterday.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think you've exhausted with this.  We will allow

 5     you one or two questions about the census.  Just one or two.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   At least one question relating to the census.  Mr. Muracevic, was

 8     the sentence that I said, did it refer to the local Muslims?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I thought your ruling was that he

11     could ask questions in relation to the petition only.

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.  During the course -- when he raised the

13     question, we discussed it.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.

15             JUDGE KWON:  But my apology not to have asked you, but we agreed

16     to allow him to put questions in relation to that census, one or two

17     questions.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Muracevic, what I said to my party colleagues in relation to

20     my conversation with Mr. Izetbegovic, did it refer to the ban on the

21     purchase of land by the local Muslims or did it refer to the land that

22     was intended to be sold to Turkish immigrants that would alter the

23     demographic composition of Bosnia?

24        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I don't know what you meant when you said

25     "Muslims."  Whenever you said "Muslims," I understood that to mean all

Page 12824

 1     the citizens of that ethnicity.  I cannot guess, second guess, what you

 2     had in mind because I didn't have an opportunity to hear what you really

 3     meant.  When you said Muslims --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  How is that question related to that census?  Yes,

 5     Ms. Sutherland?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I was raising it for that reason, Your Honour.

 7     In fact, this question doesn't relate to the census.  It goes back again

 8     to something else.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understood that I was entitled to

10     two questions about the petition and the census respectively.  That's why

11     I wanted to ask whether this document shows what I actually said to

12     Izetbegovic.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Then I think -- do you have any further questions

14     with respect to that census we saw?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, tell me this:  During the war, were any Muslims in

18     the following villages, Hotonj, Kamenica, Kobilja Glava, Perca, Tihovici,

19     Ugljesici, and Ugorsko, and I'll stop there.  Were the Muslims living in

20     those villages throughout the whole war?

21        A.   Mr. Karadzic, your question goes beyond the census and the

22     documents that we saw because the census that was compiled by the Serbian

23     authorities --

24        Q.   I'm asking you what I'm asking you.

25        A.   Parts of Kobilja Glava and some of these settlements were under

Page 12825

 1     the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and, yes, Muslims indeed

 2     lived there.  However, the question of comparing the 1991 census and the

 3     1993 census and the figures contained there took into account only parts

 4     of the settlements that were under the Serbian control, and not the

 5     territory that was under the control of the BH Army.  Excuse me.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Don't argue with the witness.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Sir, were these boxes left blank, although they were on the list?

 9     So everything was left blank as if nobody lived in those villages?

10        A.   I would really like to see this document again, where the summary

11     is shown.  So in the villages that you controlled, before actually they

12     came under your control, a certain number of Muslims, Croats and the

13     others used to live, Yugoslavs and other ethnicities.  So in my village,

14     in Svrake, 1.036 Muslims lived; whereas in the 1993 census, made by the

15     Serbian authorities, it is shown that there was not a single Muslim

16     living in that village anymore.  The village of Tihovici was 100 per cent

17     Muslim, and in 1991 there were 367 Muslims living there, while your

18     census takers, in 1993, did not find a single Muslim there, and they

19     couldn't find them there because on the 4th of July, this village was

20     attacked by the Army of Republika Srpska and killed over 30 residents of

21     the village and expelled the rest of them.  So these are comparative

22     indicators of the situation in the villages and places that you held

23     under your control, and it also shows that before you gained control of

24     these territories, a certain number of Muslims used to live.  So these

25     are the territories that were exclusively under the control of the

Page 12826

 1     Serbian army.  And in 1991, there were 11.331 Muslims, whereas in 1993

 2     there were only 210 of them.  There were 660 Croats, and in 1993, there

 3     were 302.  And as for the rest, Yugoslavs and other ethnicities,

 4     accounted for 1.098 in 1991, and in 1993, your census taker registered

 5     only 239 members of this group.  So --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's more than sufficient.  Let's conclude

 7     here.  As for the -- Mr. Robinson's request to ask the witness to remain

 8     until tomorrow to be asked further questions about his book, given the

 9     timing of the disclosure, we find it necessary and we do not grant -- we

10     deny that motion, if that is a motion.

11             That concludes your evidence, Mr. Muracevic.

12             Thank you for your indulgence and thank you for your coming to

13     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm wondering whether there is any point to bring in

17     the next witness.  I leave it in your hands, Mr. Tieger or Mr. Hayden.

18             MR. HAYDEN:  Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock.  I think

19     we've only got six minutes left.  It's probably not worth beginning

20     today.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We didn't progress very well today.  Thanks to the

22     indulgence of the court staff and the interpreters and the stenographers.

23     We -- as indicated, we would be able to sit tomorrow five 1-hour

24     sessions, from 9 until 3.15.

25             And next week, Mr. Tieger, it seems implausible to sit for an

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 1     extended hours, given the court schedule.  There is a -- another trial in

 2     the afternoon.

 3             Well, tomorrow, 9.00.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.23 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of March,

 6                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.