Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13744

 1                           Monday, 21 March 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Today, again, we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with

 8     Judge Morrison being away due to his official function.

 9             Today, we are going to finish your cross-examination,

10     Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

11                           WITNESS:  NEDJELJKO PRSTOJEVIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Good morning, Excellencies.  Good morning to all.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Prstojevic.

17        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yesterday -- or, rather, on Friday,

19     we touched upon relationships within the party and how it functioned, so

20     now I would like to put some documents to you.

21             I believe that you attended this plenary meeting of the

22     Main Board of the Executive Board, and other officials, on the 14th of

23     February, 1992, in the Holiday Inn, when the negotiations on the

24     transformation of Bosnia were already underway.

25             Could we please have P12.  It has to do with this decision,

Page 13745

 1     D1222, about the election of the Executive Board that we spoke about.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you remember that we had frozen the work of the party and that

 4     it was only at the 17th plenary session in Jahorina, held on the 17th of

 5     February, we resumed our party activities because many parties had been

 6     established in the meantime?

 7        A.   I remember that, that is quite correct.  We had major problems

 8     with the membership because they were asking that the party operate.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to draw your attention now to my words

10     that you can see here, where I say:

11             "We hope that the MPs are strengthening their activities in the

12     municipalities."

13             It's towards the bottom of this page.

14             Let us have a look at the English page.  It's somewhere there.

15     It's page 2, actually, in English.  Yes, page 2.

16             So:

17             "We hope that the MPs are getting more active in municipalities,

18     because as we concluded the last time, our representatives' authority for

19     us party and parties are service to the elected people, to the people,

20     and to people elected by the people to carry out the political will of

21     the people."

22             So:

23             "Party officials are not authority to us."

24             Can we have the next page in Serbian, though:

25             "Authority for us are, first of all, the representatives, then

Page 13746

 1     representatives in municipal assemblies and others."

 2             Was it your experience that this was a well-founded position that

 3     we did not deviate from?

 4        A.   This is quite correct, we did not deviate from this.  We were at

 5     the service of our own people.  We were the servants of our own people.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Could I have page 7, please, in Serbian.  And in English, it is

 8     page 9, and then we'll move on to page 10.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Towards the top, it says:

11             "I have to say that in many municipalities, the party is not

12     doing anything."

13             And then towards the bottom, in the last quarter, it says:

14             "Another problem that cropped up is the problem of alienation of

15     the authorities from the party.  We cannot allow that.  Presidents of

16     municipalities, presidents of municipal boards, do not really hold in

17     high regard the MPs that they are supposed to hold in high esteem.  They

18     are a member of the Joint Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Our policy --"

19             The last words down there, can we have it scrolled up:

20             "Our policy is charted not in the Executive Board, but the

21     Political Council and the Club of Deputies."

22             Is that something that was well known as well and a position that

23     was not deviated from?

24        A.   That is quite correct, and I'm sure that they are -- told the

25     investigators once, or perhaps even twice, that the Club of Deputies,

Page 13747

 1     headed by Vojo Maksimovic, was a very important link in the chain in the

 2     Serb authorities and that it had major influence.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 12 in Serbian and

 4     20 in English.

 5             I'm afraid that I haven't provided the right page references.

 6     Three pages from here.  In Serbian, it's the third page from that point.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Yes.  Where it says:

 9             "... 500.000 Serbs, a million Serbs, are staying outside the

10     Krajina and we have to reach an agreement.  If this policy is no good,

11     that is what the Main Board must conclude today, that it is not good,

12     that it leads us nowhere, that it's not been realised, that none of the

13     goals have been achieved, and then we should change the leadership.  I

14     will personally be grateful to you.  They are going to give me a medal.

15     I am going to be an honorary member, I don't know what, because I was the

16     first president of the party and I'm going to be happy and grateful if we

17     move on to another policy.  And if there is another policy and if you are

18     offering it, and we are not implementing it, then we deserve to be

19     replaced by you."

20             And towards the bottom, it says:

21             "The top authority of the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina is

22     the Serb Assembly ..."

23             And so on and so forth.

24             Do you remember that you were elected by the Main Board, although

25     I supported another candidate who was in competition with you, and that

Page 13748

 1     that was honoured?

 2        A.   That is quite correct, and that's what I told the investigators

 3     several times.

 4        Q.   Towards the bottom, I am complaining a bit about our people.  I

 5     am saying Alija Izetbegovic -- next page in Serbian too:

 6             "Alija Izetbegovic never crossed my mind.  He is unimportant.  It

 7     really has to do with our people who are not behaving in terms of loyalty

 8     or the policy we have charted.  You cannot chop Bosnia-Herzegovina in

 9     fragments.  You must transform Bosnia-Herzegovina.  America came to pay

10     their respects to us.  Zimmerman came and said, 'You can't chop up

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina,' and now Brdjo wants me to chop it.  No way, you must

12     point out that it's going to remain within its present borders, but you

13     must transform it in such a way that it does not break down.  Make it

14     flexible, make it a republic consisting of three sovereign peoples.  In

15     this, we found allies in the Croats ..."

16             And so on and so forth.

17             Do you remember that we accepted that Bosnia should leave

18     Yugoslavia with our consent on the condition that it is transformed

19     within, that it is good enough for all three constituent peoples?

20        A.   Well, I remember.  It was quite clear that that was our policy,

21     that Bosnia-Herzegovina is our state as well, but that there should be an

22     equality of rights or, rather, to avoid a situation in which the Muslim

23     people out-vote the other two peoples.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have page 22 in

25     English.

Page 13749

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Around the middle, in Serbian it says - these are my words:

 3             "I do not wish to head this party a single day longer.  I think

 4     that I have repaid my debt to my people, what I owe to my people.  I have

 5     no desire whatsoever to remain one more day here.  I can hardly wait to

 6     return to my profession and my occupation.  A better person will be

 7     found.  It is not a problem.  Nobody is irreplaceable."

 8             Do you remember that that was my position?  I did not put myself

 9     up as a candidate for anything; I remained in my profession until the

10     1st of March, 1992.

11        A.   The entire Serb people remember all of this, Mr. President,

12     because the people were wondering why you were not a candidate in the

13     elections in 1990, in the elections for the Presidency of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, because your last name is a well-known one, as

15     opposed to the last name of Mrs. Biljana Plavsic and Koljevic.  You would

16     have won a lot more votes of other ethnic groups, not only Serbs.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             I would like to ask whether this document had been admitted in

19     its entirety when it was tendered by the Prosecution.  I see, in its

20     entirety.

21             D456, can we have that now briefly.  This is the 20th session of

22     the Assembly held on the 14th and 15th of September, 1992, in Bijeljina.

23             Can we now have the Serbian and the English version, please,

24     page 15.  Sorry -- yes, it is actually page 15.  In Serbian, it's

25     page 17, page 17 in e-court.

Page 13750

 1             You can see that it is my words.  Yes.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Now, I would like to draw your attention to the middle, roughly,

 4     the middle of this page in Serbian and also in English:

 5             "I must say that it often ..."

 6             Et cetera.  And this is what it says in Serbian:

 7             "I must say that very often some municipal functionaries behave

 8     in an illegal way that actually calls for arrests and punishment.  We

 9     have to point that out as an Assembly, and perhaps we even need to punish

10     it and find a way for the Presidency to take a stand in such matters

11     between two sessions of the Assembly.  Namely, we should consider

12     ourselves lucky that there have not been any executions so far, but in

13     the future there will be arrests and punishment.  This Assembly, as the

14     legislative body and the body whose duty it is to protect legality, will

15     have to note this and give us authorisation, even if we do not declare a

16     state of war in order to straighten things out in certain municipalities

17     which are of vital importance, to use vigorous measures."

18             Do you agree that rumours and propaganda were destroying us

19     considerably, and I always proceeded from the fact that rumours were

20     correct and I very often criticised people at lower levels basically

21     without any grounds for that?  They were being reprimanded; right?

22        A.   I remember that there was criticism levelled at me, too.  I

23     remember, specifically, that you said several times that no one allowed

24     looting and that there was looting.  There was a fierce struggle being

25     waged for the rule of law, and it was only in the beginning of 1993 that

Page 13751

 1     this started functioning in the area of Ilidza.  However, that is what

 2     war always lent itself to, having the law violated by individuals who

 3     bore weapons; rifles, tanks, et cetera.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we have page 53 in Serbian and page 58 in English.  In

 6     e-court, 53.

 7             No, no, it's got to be more than this.  It should say "56," five

 8     further up in Serbian, and in English, 58.  I'm not sure that it's the

 9     right page in English either.

10             "Kasagic," where it says "Kasagic."

11             This sentence, this is also my speech:

12             "Tonight, here, we have to say things loud and clear so that

13     I can dismiss and arrest some president of a municipality who is not

14     good.  You are clashing against self-management, man.  Is self-management

15     a remnant of the previous regime?"

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   And our people encouraged to do whatever they want, should

18     everything be voted on, was that the basis of the socialist system that

19     we had?

20        A.   Self-management was the foundation of the socialist system from

21     1973 onwards, according to the Associated Labour Act that governed

22     companies and institutions.  I was a prominent representative of that

23     kind of work, because I know that law by heart, it was in my bloodstream.

24     I did not know how to operate in a different way.  I listened to the

25     grassroots.  I listened from the grassroots from around me and from below

Page 13752

 1     me.  I was more tolerant towards those who were below me than those who

 2     were above me.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell me if you agree that I never got

 4     these powers, and if I had wanted to replace you, I would have had to

 5     begin a lobbying process among your deputies for them to replace you?

 6             In the English, it's page 53.  Page 53, please.

 7             Is it correct that we never got these powers from the Assembly,

 8     and that in order to replace you or any other president of the

 9     municipality, I would have done that only by initiating a lobbying

10     process among your deputies for them to replace you?

11        A.   I understand the question, but I am waiting.  I am simply waiting

12     to see.  I don't know when I should begin to speak so that we should not

13     overlap.

14             I, as the president of the Assembly, in order for somebody to be

15     able to replace me, they would have had to convince -- lobby the deputies

16     in the Assembly so that they would replace me at the Assembly and give me

17     a vote of no confidence.  There was no other way to replace someone,

18     except when, God forbid, I committed some grave crime, and then the MUP

19     or the military police would have had to arrest me.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you think of that mechanism when you said that I

21     could have replaced you whenever I wanted?

22        A.   Well, I practically always asserted that you couldn't replace me

23     whenever you wanted to and that nobody could have replaced me whenever

24     they wanted to, because, simply, I know when I settled in at Ilidza, the

25     MUP was functioning constantly, but when the army began to function, when

Page 13753

 1     it established itself and it was maintaining law and order through the

 2     MUP and the police, military police, I knew how much of leverage I had

 3     among the people; not only in Ilidza, but in Sarajevo as well.  Perhaps I

 4     made a slip somewhere.

 5        Q.   I think that in some testimony, the Prosecution emphasised, based

 6     on some interviews, that I could have done that.  But was that the only

 7     mechanism available to me, had I wanted to replace anyone?

 8        A.   Precisely, that is the only legal mechanism.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we now have 65 ter 30851, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   This is another telephone conversation on the 2nd of July, 1992,

13     between Dragan Lubura and Nedjeljko Prstojevic.  Do I remember correctly

14     that Dragan Lubura was a leader in the Kasindol Local Commune?

15        A.   No.  Dragan Lubura was not a leader in the

16     Kasindol Local Commune, and that's what the problem is, the fact that the

17     representatives -- The Hague representatives -- The Hague investigators

18     do not look at who is the other -- at the other end of the line.  This is

19     a person carrying the lowest-ranking civilian procurement job when none

20     of the key people are there.  When the president of the commissioner's

21     office, Mr. Zeljaja, is not there, when other people are not there, then

22     he would pick up the phone.  If he's not there, then the cleaner would

23     pick up the phone.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we look at the following page, please.  In English, it's on

Page 13754

 1     the first page.  Can we stay on the first page in the English, please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Here, you're saying that you need to speak with me on the phone,

 4     and then you say:

 5             "No, somebody blackened our name here."

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note:  We don't see the

 7     original.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the English, the

 9     following page, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And then you say:

12             "Prominent people from Kasindol told him that," about you.  "I

13     had no idea about that, honestly ... one of the best crisis staffs, which

14     does its job the best.  They are feeding the hospital and all the people

15     in it, and so on."

16             Again, this is a confirmation of somebody having said something

17     to me against the people in Kasindol and about tarnishing their

18     reputation with me; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the following page in

21     the Serbian, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Then you say, all right, you appointed somebody:

24             "He was no good.  He'll be fired.  Now, if they insist on

25     appointing someone else, we'll accept that too."

Page 13755

 1             And then you go on to say:

 2             "But if you want, you can as a local ... I don't think they'll

 3     ask the local authority organs anything.

 4             "Ilidza municipality will have nothing more to do with the

 5     hospital, and you can take upon yourselves the supply of the hospital and

 6     everything else."

 7             Can we look at the following page in the English, please.

 8             Do you agree that again what is being mentioned here is regarding

 9     the bad-mouthing and that dispute that Miso is responsible for that?

10     Well, all right, I don't have to read any more.  Do we agree?

11             Can we have two pages further in the Serbian and one in the

12     English, I think?

13             I say -- Lubura says:

14             "Well, allegedly Karadzic should also be there, that guy who came

15     to give me certain details told me so."

16             And then you say:

17             "All right.  If Karadzic comes, you'll know what needs to be

18     said ..."

19             And so on and so forth.  And then that the bottom then, it says

20     they were saying something about the vehicle pool, and I told Karadzic:

21             "They have the papers of the vehicle pool.  They collected the

22     people there."

23             And so on and so forth.

24             Is this about care being taken, in the midst of war, that at the

25     hospital and around the hospital, everything is done according to the

Page 13756

 1     law?

 2        A.   Yes, precisely that's what it was about, to behave according to

 3     the law.  The Executive Board was not happy with the work of

 4     Miso Obradovic, whom it appointed.  They wanted to replace him.  He

 5     complained to the Health Ministry, Mr. Kalinic, and then there was some

 6     tensions there.  This Kasindol Municipal Staff was very good, and I had

 7     put myself on their side.  And it's clear, if they want to replace him,

 8     then they can do that, but then we will no longer be supplying the

 9     hospital, because this was a person who was supplying not only the

10     civilian population, but also the hospital, and this is why we were

11     discussing this.  And in time, there will be a change -- a legal

12     replacement of this director.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't doubt that you were

14     much more powerful than the Defence Ministry.  Thank you.

15             Can we admit this document?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1223, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 07177.  We had

19     that document before.  And can we have page 44 in the e-court.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is your testimony of the 15th of June, 2005.  I'm just going

22     to read this one answer you gave:

23             [In English] "Well, it's perfectly clear.  When the minister of

24     national defence was appointed for the Serb Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and certain people in the Territorial Defence were

Page 13757

 1     designated, our commander of Territorial Defence Staff in Ilidza was

 2     immediately linked through this hierarchy with them, and he had all the

 3     necessary consultations and instructions from the people from that

 4     ministry.  However, if you allow me one more thing, from that date, the

 5     16th of April, until the 19th of May, when the Army of Republika Srpska

 6     was created, for the most part, in the area of Ilidza municipality, our

 7     staff of Territorial Defence organised our defence on its own initiative,

 8     with the verbal support and minimal, almost symbolic logistical support

 9     from the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska."

10             [Interpretation] Was this also the reason why you felt left to

11     your own devices, and you felt that you had to deal with it yourself, and

12     that there was no key support from the central organs?

13        A.   Precisely that.  It's correct that the Ministry of Defence, which

14     had just been formed, and we know the number of municipalities in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina, was unable to provide any kind of assistance.  And I

16     am stating now that in this period until the Army of Republika Srpska was

17     formed, all of our defence exclusively rested on the TO Staff, and me, as

18     the commander of the Crisis Staff, and the people down.  All assistance

19     could have boiled down to perhaps if they could have checked something on

20     the telephone.  There was no other help.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we now have 65 ter -- actually, it's the same number, but

23     it's page 96 now.  After that, we'll look at 97.  Actually, we were

24     supposed to have moved to page 45 to see this last sentence.

25             If this is 96, can we look at line 23.  It's right at the

Page 13758

 1     bottom.  96 in the e-court.  Actually, this is not the page we're looking

 2     at.  It's the same time document, 07177, page 96, transcript pages 14595.

 3     The following page, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The question here is -- I'm going to be reading in English:

 6             [In English] "Why did you understand that Mr. Radovanovic had

 7     been sent to Ilidza?  For what purpose?

 8             "A.  Well, I never quite understood why the municipalities in the

 9     area of Serbian Sarajevo were given commissioners when they had

10     well-established local governments, municipal governments, and other

11     bodies, but those people simply came, told us that they had been

12     appointed, that they were superior to us, that they were going to follow

13     the work of local governments in the municipalities, the work of the MUP,

14     the police and the army, the entire structure functioning in the area of

15     a municipality.  And I think -- in fact, I don't think, I know, that the

16     last commissioner for us told us loud and clear that he would inform the

17     leadership in Pale that the Executive Board and the local authorities

18     were operating properly and that there was no need for his presence here.

19     I can't remember the name of the man now.  And that's what happened.  He

20     informed Pale, and then he left.  And later followed the decision of

21     Republika Srpska voiding the decision to establish war commissioners."

22             [Interpretation] Do you agree that it wasn't the case that the

23     power was preserved in all the municipalities, and that municipal

24     assemblies could convene in all of the municipalities, and that it wasn't

25     everywhere like this, and that in some municipalities there was some

Page 13759

 1     people who were quite inept at carrying out responsible duties?

 2        A.   Yes, I agree with that.  But this man, this second commissioner

 3     whom I couldn't remember at the time, is people's deputy

 4     Mr. Jovo Mijatovic, and I have here in front of me documents whereby the

 5     investigators have evidence that the Assembly introduced commissioners'

 6     offices in some municipalities.  The National Assembly of

 7     Republika Srpska introduced them and later abolished that.  I have a

 8     notebook in front of me here that says that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that with the roads being cut, and the

10     telephones, telefaxes, other communications were compromised to a large

11     extent, and that was also one of the reasons why the central leadership

12     didn't know what was going on, the government didn't know what was going

13     on in the municipalities, and for that reason they wanted to have the

14     presence of these commissioners?

15        A.   Yes, I completely agree, because it's absolutely correct that one

16     didn't know where the seat of the government was, where certain

17     republican functionaries were based, and this kept changing.  You would

18     have that they were in one building, and then later in another, and then

19     again another.  It was difficult to communicate by telephone.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Karadzic.

22             Mr. Prstojevic, could you tell us the time-frame when the

23     Pale voided [Realtime transcript read in error "avoided"] the appointment

24     of such war commissioners?  I said "voided," not "avoided."

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The National Assembly abolished war

Page 13760

 1     commissions offices in the decision dated the 18th of December, 1992.

 2     Let me check this once again.

 3             On the 17th of December, 1992, the war commissioners' offices

 4     were abolished.  But shortly thereafter, because of the peculiar

 5     situation of Ilidza, which was, in territorial terms, divided into three

 6     pieces - there was territory controlled by us, then by Muslims, then by

 7     us - on the 16th of January, 1993, we, on our own initiative, established

 8     a war commission.  And in making that decision, I did not consult anyone.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Will these two excerpts from

11     testimony be admitted or is it sufficient to have them on the record?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I would add them to the existing Exhibit D1221, four

13     pages, transcript 14542 to 14543, and 14595 to 14596.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.

15             Can we have P1487.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I am fully aware, Mr. Prstojevic, that it entirely depends on me,

18     whether I will elicit a yes-or-no answer from you, but since we don't

19     have time, I'll try to do just that.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is P1487, General Mladic's

21     diary, and can we have page 143 in Serbian, and I mean the typed version,

22     and 144 in English.  Page 143 in Serbian, the typed version, and 144 in

23     English.  We need page 144 in English.  We still don't have the English

24     version.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13761

 1        Q.   You say:

 2             "We haven't done many things, we haven't constituted a state, not

 3     all the verticals are functioning.  The state is run by a few men.  We

 4     did not secure the army.  Politics - stop, go - is disastrous for us."

 5             You mean the army politics, is that right, there?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   This is some sort of meeting which took place with

 8     General Mladic; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will get to the date later.

11             Can we now have the next page in both version.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The 7th of November, 1994.  Still, the vertical structures are

14     not well functioning.  This seems to be your opinion, and not everyone

15     seems to agree.

16             So can we have 44 in Serbian and 45 in English in e-court.

17             The transcript says:

18             "It seems that others do not agree on this."

19             But based on your participation in the meeting, there was

20     agreement on this issue; right?

21        A.   Yes.  I suppose the transcript reflects a misinterpretation.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's see about Mr. Radic.  Is he the president of

23     the Ilijas municipality and people's deputy, or was he no longer

24     president at the time?  I don't know exactly.

25        A.   Mr. Trifko Radic was a peoples' deputy from Ilijas, a man held in

Page 13762

 1     high repute.  I think he had a law degree and worked in the

 2     Kosevo Hospital.  The president of the Ilijas municipality was Mr. Ratko

 3     Hadzic, and the two of them did a great deal for the municipality of

 4     Ilijas and Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Radic's assessment is that there was general chaos

 6     and lack of discipline:

 7             "Unless a state of war is declared, I will take up weapons and

 8     will never set my foot back in the Assembly.  When one individual is

 9     wounded, 16 carry him away and abandon the lines."

10             So evidently the notes only reflect the gist of what was said,

11     but do they reflect what Deputy Radic stated at the meeting?

12        A.   Yes, this is true.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Are we looking at the correct English page,

14     Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  In English, it should be

16     page 145 in e-court.  Now we have it.

17             Can we now have 65 ter 10930.  It's a meeting of the

18     SDS Town Board, dated the 18th of April, 1991.  I do believe that

19     Mr. Radic is among those present, too.  But I'm afraid we don't have a

20     translation, so I'll just read out one excerpt from it.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is this the minutes from the Town Board meeting, dated the

23     18th of April, 1991?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3.

Page 13763

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Under item 6, it reads:

 3             "When it comes to the appointment of the Council of the SDS

 4     Town Board of Sarajevo, Jovo Jovanovic told those present that the

 5     councils would be auxiliary bodies of the Town Board, comprising people

 6     with the greatest expertise, education and capabilities proposed by

 7     municipal boards."

 8             Does this not show that it is the municipal boards who have the

 9     authority to put forth candidates for these bodies, rather than have the

10     higher structures interfere in this?

11        A.   Yes, and I did say that I was a member of the SDS Town Board.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it marked for

13     identification, and we'll have it translated?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1224, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 00948.

17             This is the wrong number.  Can we have 16767.  We have a

18     translation.  Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is this the statutory decision passed by your Ilidza Board in

21     February 1992?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we have page 4.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13764

 1        Q.   Does it read, in the second line from the top:

 2             "The presidential shall be held answerable for his activity by

 3     the Assembly and the Municipal Board"?

 4             Is this how the understood the chain of authorities?

 5        A.   Yes, and I explained to the investigators that we passed this

 6     statutory decision at my express request.  Other municipal boards did not

 7     have this, but the League of Communists had statutory decisions governing

 8     the basic structures of the League of Communists.  Guided by that

 9     principle, I wanted to organise the work of the Ilidza SDS

10     Municipal Board along these lines.  And later on, I came across

11     difficulties simply because I wanted to act in accordance with the law,

12     and this is in accordance with the statute of the Serbian

13     Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we have the document admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1225, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 30862.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This is your telephone conversation with Jovo Bozic.  A female

21     person says:

22             "Yes, hello."

23             "Serbian municipality of Ilidza, President Prstojevic needs to

24     talk to President Bozic."

25             Let me ask you, if General Gvero [Realtime transcript read in

Page 13765

 1     error "Jovo Bozic"] called someone, and we don't know who, and if he

 2     addressed him as president, how many presidents did we have and how many

 3     individuals could he have addressed in this manner?

 4        A.   Well, he could have addressed, as president, all those who were

 5     presidents of municipalities.  And let me tell you that all the mass

 6     media outlets, including radio and television, addressed me as president,

 7     as they did you, president of the republic.  We had to correct them.  In

 8     some cases, it wasn't corrected.  In some, it was only after or toward

 9     the end of the war.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we have page 2, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   "Any news, anything new to report," Jovo Bozic asks you.  And you

14     say somewhere in the middle:

15             "Well, nothing special, to tell you the truth.  When it comes to

16     help in this Sarajevo area, there's nothing new to report.  We are

17     neither assisted by the higher-up political levels or by the government,

18     nobody.  What's more, it was the Sarajevo region that has given more to

19     them than they to us."

20             Is that true?

21        A.   Yes.  In fact, that's how it was.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 5 of the document.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You said --

25             JUDGE KWON:  You can take a look at line 22 of the previous page,

Page 13766

 1     which is on the monitor.  Did you ask the witness if Jovo Bozic called

 2     someone, or you refer to someone else?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I meant General Gvero or anyone.  I

 4     said if we heard anybody address somebody else as president, whereas

 5     Jovo Bozic was the person who was in this telephone conversation.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I just wanted to check the accuracy of the

 7     transcript.  Let's move on.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Jovo says:

11             "No way, we have no flats."

12             And you say:

13             "No, they don't have any flats at their disposal, but we should

14     try and find a weekend cottage or something of the sort."

15             And then he tells you:

16             "Please take it upon yourself."

17             And then you go on to say:

18             "You know where the problem lies.  I have -- it's very busy here

19     with me in the town."

20             And he says:

21             "I know ... there's a great deal of wheeler-dealers who are

22     taking away flats ..."

23             Et cetera.

24             Can we have the next page in Serbian, please.

25             And he says:

Page 13767

 1             "There is a lot less of that at my end, and yet I can't put a

 2     stop to it.  But please see what you can do."

 3             So was it not the case that in Ilidza, the ratio was one local

 4     inhabitant to a refugee?  Was it a problem to find accommodation for all

 5     these refugees?

 6        A.   Yes, it was a big problem, and I have documentation with me here.

 7     As early as the 17th of April of 1999, we were discussing the possible

 8     accommodation for refugees in Ilidza.  We have memos from the

 9     Rakovica Local Commune which is on the border with Kiseljak.  We also

10     have a memo from a brigade to that effect.  The population in the area

11     under our control rose from 20.000 to 45.000, and if we factor in some of

12     the Serbs who were there who had also fled from elsewhere, there were

13     more refugees there than locals.  And that's true for Eastern Ilidza as

14     it is for Republika Srpska.  And as for the Croats, I said that more than

15     85 per cent of the Croats stayed with us.  They didn't move out.

16        Q.   Thank you.  This conversation revolved around possibilities of

17     putting up these refugees in weekend cottages, et cetera?

18        A.   Yes, in the periphery of the municipality, including Rakovica.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we admit the document?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1226, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have 65 ter 30863.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is your telephone conversation also with the president of

Page 13768

 1     the municipality of Rajlovac, Jovo Bozic.  And it says down here:

 2             "The municipality of Rajlovac."

 3             "The president wishes to speak to you."

 4             And could we have the second page now.  In English, yes, it's the

 5     lower part here.

 6             Jovo Bozic says:

 7             "Is there anything new going on, any news?"

 8             And he says:  "Nothing special."

 9             "Well, do you know anything about this Assembly tomorrow in

10     Banja Luka?"

11             And he says:  "I don't know.

12             And you say:  "You are invited to the Assembly."

13             Ah, yes, it is the next page in English:

14             "You have been invited to the Assembly in Banja Luka.  Well,

15     presidents of SDS municipal boards, tonight ..."

16             And so on.

17             And he sa s:  "Yes."

18             And you say:

19             "To tell you the truth, I have decided that I'm not going to

20     Banja Luka."

21             Did you go to Banja Luka then?

22        A.   I don't know if I went.  I did go once.  If I said that I decided

23     I wouldn't go, something could have changed, Jovo Bozic could have

24     persuaded me to go.  However, I was there once, and not at that Assembly

25     all the time.

Page 13769

 1        Q.   There were cases when you did not attend, and nothing bad

 2     happened to you because you did not attend?

 3        A.   No, no, nobody would have even asked why I hadn't come.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.  I think

 5     you can keep the same page in English.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So some Seso gets into the picture, and Seso says:

 8             "If we could meet up to analyse this, about four or five

 9     municipalities, Adzic, Bozic, and Andzic from Ilijas."

10             And you say:

11             "You can -- you take that schedule one-on-one meeting somewhere

12     and we will come."

13             Were these meetings a necessary form of work, since there wasn't

14     good communication with the government and the central authorities?

15        A.   Well, absolutely, it was necessary, and we had a great many

16     meetings at lower level.  This Seso is Svetozar Stanic, who then held the

17     post of the president of the municipality of Vogosca.  It was only later

18     that Rajko Koprivica would take over.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1227, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have for a moment, please,

24     P1105.  This is a session of the People's Assembly held on the 23rd and

25     24th of November, 1992.

Page 13770

 1             Could we have page 102 in English in e-court, and the Serbian

 2     page is ERN 0214-9731.  It seems to be page 100 in e-court, the Serbian

 3     version.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The chairman is most probably the speaker of the Assembly,

 6     Krajisnik.  And down here, towards the middle, it says:

 7             "Djuric complaining because he is not aware of what the

 8     commissioners are doing.  I therefore would ask, but I don't know.  I

 9     don't think they are right.  Perhaps they are.  I would therefore ask

10     these commissioners.  Let me explain only briefly.  The function of the

11     commissioners was to ..."

12             Well:

13             "... and most of them were deputies and who went on behalf of the

14     state to places where authority does not function.  Try to help resolve

15     some problems so that the authorities could be established."

16             Do you agree that this was their purpose?

17        A.   I agree.  And they were objective, in practical terms, and they

18     helped us in allowing the rule of law to prevail.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we have 65 ter 01611.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you agree that those who passed laws know those laws the best;

23     that is to say, members of Parliament?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Here, we see a certificate confirming that Jovo Mijatovic was

Page 13771

 1     appointed a member of Parliament, and instead of the president of the

 2     Presidency, it was Krajisnik who initialled this.  This is just a

 3     certificate stating that the Presidency had appointed him.  Do you agree

 4     with that?

 5        A.   I do agree, I do.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1228, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 20647.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   This is a decision of the National Assembly.  It was signed by

13     President Krajisnik; the speaker of the National Assembly, that is.  It

14     is dated the 17th of November, 1992.  And Article 1 says:

15             "The decision on the formation of war commissions in

16     municipalities during an imminent threat of war or state of war ceases to

17     be valid."

18             "On the day this decision enters into force, the war commission

19     shall cease to function."

20             And then:

21             "This decision shall enter into force on the day it is issued and

22     shall be published in the 'Official Gazette' ..."

23             Is that what you said a moment ago?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 13772

 1             Can this be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1229, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 1656.

 5             Part of my question is missing in the transcript.  The Assembly

 6     passed this, and the Assembly declared it null and void.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   And you confirmed that?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, I confirmed it a moment ago.

10        Q.   Thank you.  This is a document of the Serb municipality of

11     Ilidza, dated the 16th of January.  I think that you mentioned it a few

12     moments ago.  It is an order on the establishment of war presidencies --

13     of a war presidency.  Can you confirm that it is not people by name who

14     are appointed to these war presidencies, but in terms of the office they

15     hold; the president of the Municipal Assembly, the vice-president of the

16     Municipal Assembly, secretary of the Municipal Assembly, president of the

17     Municipal Executive Board, brigade commanders on the territory of Ilidza

18     Serb municipality, Ilidza police station commander, Rade Ristic,

19     Vojkovici war commissioner?  So it is not that they are appointed there

20     as individual people, but in terms of the office they hold?

21        A.   That is quite true, it has to do with the offices they hold.

22     This Rade Ristic was pointed out in particular because he pertains to the

23     eastern part, and that will be the same thing there.  He will replace me

24     there.  It's the same people who are going to be there, the commanders of

25     brigades, et cetera, because Ilidza has three brigades and two battalions

Page 13773

 1     and another brigade, then three police stations, plus the border police

 2     station and so on.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Article 6 says what the tasks are of the

 4     War Presidency:

 5             "... to co-ordinate the functions of government (the army, police

 6     stations, economic facilities and government organs) for the sake of

 7     defending the territory, maintaining and establishing civilian authority,

 8     and organising all other parts of life and work on their territory.

 9             "They will receive certain instructions from republic government

10     organs and provide necessary information with the aim of ensuring

11     conditions for the work of military organs and units and the police

12     stations for the defence of the Serb people.

13             "They will create conditions and enable the work of charity and

14     humanitarian organisations, i.e., the unhindered transport of

15     humanitarian aid convoys, refugees, prisoners of war and the like."

16             Article 7 says that the War Presidency decisions have to be

17     verified by the Assembly by a majority of votes.  Is that customary in

18     our system?  Is this customary to have this kind of concentration of

19     power when decisions have to be made urgently, and they have to be

20     subjected to verification in the Assembly once the Assembly can meet?

21        A.   Well, precisely.  As I said a moment ago, Ilidza was split into

22     three parts.  And for the sake of functionality in a situation of war,

23     war was being waged every day, every day people were losing their lives

24     and there was fighting going on, so as soon as the Assembly would meet,

25     they would verify the decisions reached or they would say, No, that's not

Page 13774

 1     right and I'm not going to vote for that.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that the members of the Assembly,

 3     Municipal Assembly, were also in the trenches?

 4        A.   Mr. President, you don't know about this, but the investigators

 5     know full well that I closed the municipality a countless number of

 6     times, and all the officials went to the trenches to fight.  The

 7     investigators know that I fought as an infantryman together with Assembly

 8     officials for six days.  They know that we regularly held the defence

 9     line towards Sokolovic Kolonija, several days during the week and for

10     several hours.  For example, the soldiers would go home for 15 minutes to

11     take a bath, to have some lunch, and that was it.  We were not just

12     rocking in our armchairs.  Everyone had to be there on the front-line and

13     fight.  Ljubo Bosiljcic was in the Territorial Defence Staff, and he was

14     in charge of logistics.  No one was exempt from these defence duties.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can this be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1230, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we now have D1164 briefly.

21             This is a document that was exhibited.  It is a UN document dated

22     the 15th of September, 1994.

23             Can I have page 4 of this document.

24             I am going to read this now, although I know that you can

25     understand the English, read it in English:

Page 13775

 1             [In English] "Movement of people.

 2             "The office of ICRC in Hrasnica reported that last Sunday the BH

 3     police stopped 100 people, Serbs residing in Hrasnica, from crossing

 4     through Mount Igman to Serb-controlled areas.

 5             "ICRC employees, who witnessed the return, have been denied to

 6     interview these people who, after interrogations at the police station,

 7     returned home.

 8             "ICRC believes that some of them may have become homeless due to

 9     the fact that their apartments were immediately occupied by others.

10     There are some indications that BH authorities may offer an exchange for

11     Muslim residents in Ilidza."

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   First of all, this report of the United Nations refers to the

14     possibility of this promise made to the Serbs, that they could leave, and

15     as soon as they would leave their apartments, somebody would occupy their

16     apartments, and then they would not actually be allowed to leave.  Was

17     that the practice that prevailed?

18        A.   I'm aware of this case.  Actually, from the 28th of April, 1992,

19     there were a bit over 300 Serbs who were left in Hrasnica, and they were

20     hostages.  They were not allowed to leave.  However, before this date,

21     somebody from the Muslim authorities had promised the Serbs transport to

22     Kiseljak, and had taken money from them for that, and people know how

23     much money it was.  They were supposed to provide buses and everything

24     else that was needed.  However, when they were taken to Igman, then this

25     happened, what the UN is saying here.

Page 13776

 1             Now, when they were returned to Hrasnica, then these Serbs - I

 2     mean there were women there, children, and some able-bodied men - they

 3     were spat at, mistreated.  Various objects were thrown at them by the

 4     Muslim population there, in the presence of the authorities and those who

 5     had organised their departure.  This is pure manipulation.

 6             Secondly, it is incorrect that we have Muslims in Ilidza for

 7     exchanges, because we had freedom of movement.  However, there was no

 8     freedom of movement only for Serbs who were of military age.  They could

 9     only desert, but everybody else was allowed to go wherever they wanted to

10     go.

11        Q.   In 1994, in Ilidza, there were still Muslims living there who

12     hadn't wanted to leave?

13        A.   Well, yes, Mr. President.  I believe that as a physician, you

14     know Dr. Vlado Mehmetbasic [phoen].  Throughout the war, he was with us.

15     His villa, his house, is in this alley -- this big street, rather, where

16     the Command of the Ilidza Brigade was 150 metres away.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             This has already been admitted, so let's move on.

19             65 ter 07177, please.  That's the document that we already had.

20     And then in e-court, it is page 127, 127.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Now I'm going to read out this answer of yours in English:

23             [In English] "The Muslims were not -- in Ilidza were not being

24     expelled in an organised fashion, and this can be proved for the

25     entire -- for this entire area.  It was in the areas that were -- combat

Page 13777

 1     activities were being conducted that Muslims were driven out.  In 1992,

 2     there were numerous Muslim units in the area, and under such

 3     circumstances even thousands of households would actually move out, but

 4     both on the Muslim and Serb side.  Throughout the war, many homes were

 5     left abandoned, those that were abutting the line of contact, the line of

 6     confrontation as the people were leaving the area.  However, the Muslim

 7     and Croat population were allowed to go wherever they wanted to go if

 8     they wanted to.  Initially, they were allowed to go wherever they wanted

 9     to go, and then subsequently they were allowed to go to those

10     municipalities where there were no combat activities under Croat control

11     because the front-line was held so strictly that civilians could cross

12     these areas only through organised exchanges."

13             [Interpretation] Does this correctly reflect the circumstances

14     and the manner in which the civilians could have avoided the areas in

15     which they did not want to stay?

16        A.   See, Mr. President, during my interview in 2003, I was working in

17     a company from 7.00, and sometimes I was interviewed for over 19 hours.

18     I was unprepared and often I was tired, and I told the investigators on a

19     number of occasions, I'm tired, but I will answer that question.  And

20     they abused that.

21             I wasn't precise here, but also the interpreter -- I have about

22     20 objections to the translation from 2003, the mildest one of which

23     would be I didn't say that.  The investigator would then give a break,

24     and then afterward that they would say, You said so and so.  There are

25     two cases like that.

Page 13778

 1             Here, I could not have said that the Muslims were expelled

 2     somewhere.  What is the gist?  The areas where there is fighting is an

 3     urban area, it's part of the town.  The population was fleeing on its

 4     own, both Serbs and Muslims and Croats.  Everybody was escaping because

 5     the fighting had started.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I was saying in 2003, in

 8     essence, is correct, but it's not precise enough.

 9             The most clear formulation would be nobody ever moved out the

10     population from Ilidza during wartime in an organised manner, or from any

11     other area.  Because of combat, the population from all three ethnic

12     groups was fleeing on its own.  We can give examples.  Let's say the

13     priest from the monastery in Nedzarici is somebody who was an eye-witness

14     of all of these events.  I will mention that as an example.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Well, that Catholic monastery was preserved on our side.  The

17     whole time, you had preserved the monastery and returned the library to

18     them?

19        A.   Yes, that is quite correct, that's right.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 154 in the same

21     document in the e-court.  This is the testimony of the 16th of June,

22     2005.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Line 1 here, it states -- 154 in e-court, and the page is 14659.

25     So it's the following page, please.

Page 13779

 1             You state:

 2             [In English] "We did not expel any Muslims in an organised

 3     fashion from Ilidza, and we did not undertake anything else against the

 4     Muslim population."

 5             [Interpretation] And the question:

 6             [In English] "Isn't it the case that repressive measures were

 7     taken against Muslims, which resulted in them increasingly fleeing from

 8     the territory?

 9             "A.  I don't know if any repressive measures have been taken, but

10     whoever was in a minority in a given area would not have been safe.  And

11     the population moved en masse.  No matter what population, if they were

12     not in a majority, they would tend to move to those areas where they

13     were."

14             [Interpretation] Is this also your answer that you can confirm

15     again today?

16        A.   Well, generally, this applied, and I confirmed that.  But

17     Ilidza -- the Serbs from Ilidza, the inhabitants there, were extremely

18     tolerant in comparison to refugee Serbs, who were disappointed, had

19     suffered casualties and were like this or like that, and they could have

20     created situations like that.  I stand by what I said.  I think in 2005,

21     it was.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we add these pages, too, to the document, please?

24             JUDGE KWON:  I think we need the previous page as well in order

25     to understand the context.

Page 13780

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  And in order to understand the context,

 2     Your Honour, with respect to the pages -- now referring back to the first

 3     reference that begins at 14631, that discussion continues through to the

 4     beginning of 14638, so I think we should include those.  And as to

 5     1465 -- sorry, go ahead.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  You mean eight pages?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  And as for the discussion that begins at

 8     14659, that continues on to the next page, 14660, and I will check to see

 9     if the underlying document, which is identified at page 14658 - so maybe

10     we should start there - is in evidence.  And I think for context, it

11     would need to be.  So for that section, it would be 14658 through 60.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's fair enough in relation to the second

13     part.  Are you happy to admit eight pages, Mr. Karadzic, in relation to

14     the first part?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would have no objection if

16     Mr. Prstojevic would confirm that these are faithfully convey stance.

17     Otherwise, we would have a problem.  Perhaps, in the questioning,

18     Mr. Tieger could ask if those pages are okay.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see the page 127 first, transcript

20     page 14631.

21             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:  I have to disagree with the accused's suggestion,

23     Your Honour.  He raised this point.  This is testimony in court,

24     transcribed and recorded.  These additional pages are in the precise same

25     context the accused tendered them.  There is no need for the expedient of

Page 13781

 1     going through it with the witness, who said those words in court, and

 2     they can be --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not correct, man.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Prstojevic, it's not for you to interfere at

 5     this time.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I think page 127 speaks for itself.  And if

 8     necessary, you can deal with the remainder of the pages referred to

 9     during re-examination.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I'll have a limited time in -- I'll bow to the

11     Court's will, of course, but I think that is a clear continuation, and

12     I think it should be included, particularly since this occurred in open

13     court, as part of the questioning which the accused seeks to tender.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say --

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  At this moment, we'll admit just one page, 14631,

17     and it's entirely up to you, Mr. Tieger, to raise the remainder of the

18     pages referred to.

19             So we'll add these four pages to Exhibit D1221.

20             And I note the time.  It's time to take a break.

21             As I indicated to you, Mr. Karadzic, I would expect you to

22     conclude your cross-examination in the next session.

23             Half an hour.  We'll resume at 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

Page 13782

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, Mr. Tieger was kind

 3     enough to tell us that he would need at least those 45 minutes, and

 4     perhaps a whole hour, so if the Trial Chamber wouldn't have many

 5     questions, I would ask to have some half an hour from that session, to

 6     use this opportunity that the witness is here.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Given that we allowed you originally 10 hours, that

 8     request is admitted.  You'll have half an hour in the next session.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10             Can we have 65 ter 223 -- 22231.

11             JUDGE KWON:  There seems to be another technical difficulty in

12     relation to the French translation.  We are not getting any.

13             Shall we try again.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  If the Court Deputy could see to it.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do we now have French translation?

18             I hope the matter has been resolved.  No.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Judge Lattanzi has kindly agreed to follow in

21     English in the meantime.

22             Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we now have 65 ter 22231.  This is your statement of the

25     6th of May, 2005, just a small excerpt.  E-court page 49 in English, and

Page 13783

 1     in the B/C/S, 48.  98 in Serbian.  The English is okay.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I am going to read it in English.

 4             The question is:

 5             [In English] "What does the term 'ethnic cleansing' mean?"

 6             Prstojevic:

 7             "I simply do not know, because we did not use that term in our

 8     terminology during the war.  Simply because of security, for example,

 9     Sarajevo had 176.000 Serbs.  All the Serbs that were not under the

10     control of Serbs, which means that they were under control of Muslims or

11     Croats, they wanted to leave those territories, and for them, that was

12     saving their lives."

13             [Interpretation] Do you agree, Mr. Prstojevic, that this was a

14     temporary relocation of the population in order to save their lives, and

15     it was regulated by at least four international agreements with the other

16     two warring parties?

17        A.   I have that in front of me, and I'm trying to process it in

18     detail.

19             As far as international conventions are concerned, I'm aware of

20     only one thing.  The combat area, where it was not safe for the

21     population, where there was destruction of buildings, it's possible or

22     it's permissible to move out the population.  I stand by what I said in

23     2005.

24             As for Ilidza, and I state this, never carried out any organised

25     relocation of the population anywhere, because that would imply

Page 13784

 1     organising buses, providing transport for the people, and so on and so

 2     forth.

 3             However, as for Serbs in Sarajevo, leaving the Muslim territory

 4     meant reaching freedom.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we add this page?  Can we -- actually, this is a different

 7     document.  This is a statement; it's not testimony.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, only that page.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1231, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we have 65 ter 14692 now.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We have a document here signed by the president of the

14     Municipal Assembly.  We will see that at the end.  And what is being

15     sought here from the Bosnia-Herzegovina Government is to adopt two

16     decisions, to return Serbs from Serbia and Montenegro and that their

17     property shall be confiscated.  I assume that means in case they don't

18     return.

19             But let's look at paragraph 4.  From the Serbian municipality of

20     Ilidza, not only the Serb, but Muslim and Croat population have also

21     moved out.  Was that how it was?

22        A.   That is quite correct.  Until that fateful day, the 22nd of

23     April, 1992, when that horrendous attack on us took place, more Serbs

24     were killed than Muslims.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 13785

 1             Can we admit this, please?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1232, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Of course, this threat of confiscation of Serb property, of

 6     deserters, is something that you never actually carried out; is that

 7     right?

 8        A.   Well, look, here's what's important:  It's very important to

 9     differentiate between something that is said from the possibility of

10     actually implementing it.  We were not an organ, at the level of the

11     municipality, that could do that, that could actually carry that through.

12     In order to confiscate property, you need to adopt legal regulations at

13     the level of the state.  The attempt here was to return military

14     conscripts, Serbs, from Serbia and from Montenegro, and some of our

15     activities in that area were effective to have deserters come back to

16     defend their country and their -- or their land and their houses.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we have 65 ter 01535.  01535.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This is your document, dated the 19th of May, 1992, where a

21     decision is issued allowing the departure of the Croats and Muslims from

22     all the areas of the Serb municipality of Ilidza, save for Butmir,

23     Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica, where such departures are not allowed.

24     Were Sokolovic Kolonija, Butmir and Hrasnica under your control or were

25     they under Muslim control?

Page 13786

 1        A.   Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica, Butmir and Donji Kotorac were under

 2     Muslim control throughout the war.  Nobody has a shred of any valid

 3     proof, the orders of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, or Ilidza, or any other

 4     units which would have issued orders to attack.  These settlements have a

 5     corridor by way of Igman, a way out, and this was the way which some of

 6     the Serbs took, as confirmed by UNPROFOR.

 7             We were angry because the Serbs were not allowed free movement,

 8     and all the discussions ended unsuccessfully.  At a later date, we would

 9     amend this decision, and it only takes a day or two to do so.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can it be admitted, please?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1233, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 16774, a 65 ter

15     document.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, people who wanted to have free movement, would

18     they approach an authority to be issued with permits to that effect or

19     were permits forced on them?

20        A.   You see, Mr. President, with a view to prohibiting military

21     conscripts, the Serbs, from leaving Ilidza, we, and I mean first the

22     Crisis Staff and then the MUP, started issuing permits.  When the Army of

23     Republika Srpska was set up, only the permits issued by the MUP and the

24     VRS would be valid, and they applied solely to conscripts.

25             In this particular instance, it has to do with permits for Serbs,

Page 13787

 1     military conscripts, because, otherwise, the MUP or the VRS would not --

 2     or the TO, that is, would not allow them to leave, and only those

 3     [Realtime transcript read in error "Serbs"] holding permits could be

 4     allowed passage at check-points.

 5             Secondly, all the remaining population who were not military

 6     conscripts were not issued permits.  This is also applicable to the

 7     Muslims.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says here that only the Serbs

 9     could pass through check-points with these passes.  That's what the

10     transcript says.  Can we clarify this?

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Does everyone who holds such a pass, and who has a wartime

13     assignment either as a work obligation or at the front, be it Serb or

14     Muslim, have the right to pass -- go through the check-point, and those

15     who didn't have them wouldn't?

16        A.   Absolutely.  Whoever had the pass was guaranteed passage.  Even

17     here, with me in The Hague, I have a pass for -- issued for a Muslim.

18     Such passes were issued by my own associates, and I and they can testify

19     to the fact that these passes were received also to Muslims.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can this be admitted, please?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1234, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can I have 65 ter 30784.

Page 13788

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is a telephone conversation which took place on the 21st of

 3     May, 1992, between you and -- or, rather, between Unkovic and Gagovic and

 4     then between you and General Mladic.

 5             Can we have page 2, please.

 6             Rather than read everything, let me just summarise this.

 7             You greet Mladic, and then Mladic says:

 8             "Listen, the convoy set out ..."

 9             And he's telling someone to lower the volume of something:

10             "A convoy is set out from the barracks.  They turned over the

11     food stuffs ..."

12             And please look at what he says next.  Tolimir:

13             "And then they have a warrant officer second class on board

14     without [indiscernible]."

15             And then he says:

16             "Tolimir went there.  Their convoy should be prepared

17     immediately, and it should be the same as it was when it came here.  It

18     should go straight to Kobiljaca.  You will be escorted, and you will not

19     hold it up."

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karadzic repeat his question, please?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you repeat your question,

22     please, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Does this telephone conversation with Mladic mean that a convoy

25     carrying food set out, and that it was accompanied by a warrant officer

Page 13789

 1     of armija -- that's to say of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who had an

 2     ulcer perforation, and that it was supposed to go straight to Kobiljaca?

 3     Would it cross over to the BH Army territory upon reaching Kobiljaca?

 4        A.   This conversation needs to be explained in greater detail.  It

 5     does mean precisely that, but it has to do with a convoy of children from

 6     Sarajevo and conscripts from Sarajevo.  The convoy is some eight

 7     kilometres' long.  This activity was run by the Ministry of Health.  The

 8     convoy reached eight kilometres into our territory, and there were

 9     problems on the Muslim side because they wanted to include among those in

10     the convoy also the defenders of Sarajevo.  However, since there had been

11     a massacre committed in Pofalici earlier on, the Serbs would approach the

12     convoy, asking that some 317 civilians, Serbs who were killed on that

13     occasion, and 70 who were taken prisoner.  I have very precise

14     information about this.

15             What you stated in your question is true, but let me say this:

16     In relation to this particular date, the 19th, there is a forgery, a

17     faked decision of the Crisis Staff, which I have been in possession of

18     since 2000, but I knew that it wasn't genuine, it wasn't ours.  And this

19     was also confirmed by an official of the American Embassy.

20             And last winter, as I was looking at the documentation, I

21     observed that the stamp wasn't ours at all, and, of all things, the stamp

22     contains a swastika.  And I compared it to our stamp which I wanted to

23     show to Dusko, the individual who had been given this document to begin

24     with.

25        Q.   All right, let's go on.

Page 13790

 1             It says here that Mladic would explain to people from Pofalici

 2     and is asking you not to stall the matter, as the Muslims have been.

 3             Can we have the next page.  The English page is all right.

 4             You say:

 5             "We have always been fair."

 6             And Mladic is kindly asking you:

 7             "I'm not saying that you haven't been fair, but please tell these

 8     families.  Let them take some water ..."

 9             Et cetera.

10             And you say:  "Fine, it will be done."

11             So you were told that the convoy should be given food and water

12     and that Mladic would take upon himself to explain this to the people of

13     Pofalici.

14             Do you know that Mladic's house in Pofalici was burned that day?

15     Did you know that he had a house there?

16        A.   That's absolutely true, his house was torched.  And this convoy

17     would be taken care of by our border police.  I have an exact annotation

18     in my diary as to the measures we took to secure the convoy; for

19     instance, to have a police officer 100 metres -- police officers 100

20     metres apart, to have care taken of women with infants, if any,

21     et cetera.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can this be admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1235, Your Honours.

Page 13791

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 30788.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Rather than read the whole document, let me tell you that you're

 4     talking to Colonel Gagovic on the 21st of May yet again, and he asked you

 5     if anybody was bothering you.  You complained that you had too many

 6     people in your charge, and I suppose it refers to refugees.

 7             Can we have the next page.

 8             Did you mean refugees when you said that you had too many people

 9     there?

10        A.   I meant refugees as well, but we had some five to six

11     conversations about this particular convoy.  The Muslim leadership

12     launched a widespread offensive in Sarajevo and then charged us with this

13     particular convoy and waited to see what would happen with the people who

14     had had members of their families killed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in

16     English.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You say here that you were worried about Alija because he did not

19     take care of his people:

20             "The only thing he's doing is bad-mouthing me in the media."

21             The answer you gave was not complete.  You said the Muslims sent

22     a convoy, and you said that they placed 200 of some others, expecting

23     that the families of those killed - I suppose in Pofalici - would make a

24     problem out of it.  What did you mean, exactly?

25        A.   This is what I meant:  The convoy held a large number of military

Page 13792

 1     conscripts, more than 200, I suppose, because the column was more than

 2     eight kilometres' long, so you'll understand that if somebody's family

 3     was killed the day before, and there were many families there whose

 4     people were among the 317 who perished there.

 5        Q.   Fine.  Thank you.  You can see on this page that you say:

 6             "I will have to explain to the people.  We were explaining to

 7     them somewhat that it was Alija's sin."

 8             So you were explaining to the people that it was Alija's fault

 9     because of his lack of care; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You say that he is not showing any interest, it's not the

12     powerless who are to blame, and then you say:

13             "Well, he's manipulating them.  He'd like to achieve something

14     with the public by doing that, but we'll see.  Maybe things will resolve

15     themselves somehow today."

16             And you're referring to the convoy, aren't you?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.  And we

19     can keep the English.  The relevant part is at the bottom.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Gagovic is telling you this:

22             "These Muslims are fleeing Dobrinja head over heals."

23             "Is that so?"

24             "I ordered the press centre to make it known that we will allow

25     only entire families of Muslims to leave Dobrinja ..."

Page 13793

 1             So:

 2             "... husbands, wives, children."

 3             "But only entire families.  We will not allow women and children

 4     to leave alone, leaving the others behind."

 5             Therefore, Gagovic is telling you that he will allow civilians to

 6     leave, but he also wants men to leave, rather than men getting civilians

 7     out of their way and staying behind and fighting there?

 8        A.   Yes.  On that day, we had the Red Cross and their Crescent

 9     meeting to agree on some issues.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can it be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1236, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 31629.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   This is your conversation with one Ekanovic on the 14th of

17     July --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Of the 14th of June.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   We're reading from the fifth or sixth line from the top:

22             "Let them find a solution for that."

23             And you say that you are now in the same sort of situation where

24     you were on the 4th and 5th of April, and:

25             "... I have that situation here now.  It's incredible."

Page 13794

 1             So you're confirming that you haven't progressed, but you haven't

 2     regressed either; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   What you say here is:

 7             "The question is -- the question is one of survival."

 8             And then you're saying:

 9             "The situation seems to have no way out, and when things do not

10     start right, we have to narrow things down.  Everything will go to the

11     devil.  There is no space, you can barely breathe."

12             What is meant here; the fact that the front-lines have

13     practically reached the houses themselves, that they have really pushed

14     you all the way to your houses?

15        A.   Precisely.  We had to be like a hedgehog in order to defend

16     ourselves.  Later on, we managed to stretch out.  I don't know who it is

17     I'm talking to here.  I'm assuming that I'm talking to Mr. Kezunovic, who

18     is going to Pale.  But my primary concern here has to do with the

19     surrender of the airport to UNPROFOR, which is cutting Ilidza off, what

20     we were talking about the other day.  Instead of being able to go to the

21     eastern part and to go home within 15 days [as interpreted], and instead

22     of getting the wounded to where they're supposed to be taken, one has to

23     travel for three hours, rather than fifteen minutes.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

Page 13795

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1237, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 30803, can we have that,

 4     please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Your conversation with General Mladic on the 24th of May.  You

 7     see in the lower half, Mladic is asking you whether you have buses there

 8     from Pofalici, with aid for Sarajevo.  And you say that you have prepared

 9     everything that you have, and you say that there has been a

10     misunderstanding somewhere.  And he's saying:  "What?"

11             And you say:

12             "Caritas buses practically entered much earlier.  They entered

13     before the convoy ..."

14             And you say:  "Where did they enter?"

15             And you say:  "In Sarajevo and Ilidza."

16             Is Caritas a Catholic humanitarian organisation?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you would regularly let them enter Sarajevo through Ilidza?

19        A.   Well, yes, Mr. President.  As for us in Ilidza, Caritas, all the

20     other humanitarian convoys - I have five or six convoys jotted down here,

21     the ones we let through before the 19th of May - UNPROFOR also had no

22     problems with us.  Also, UNPROFOR aircraft flying low.  I don't know

23     whether anybody had any problem with us.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have the second

25     page.

Page 13796

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mladic is asking who is controlling Stup, and you say that --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot find this on

 4     either page.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And Mladic is saying:

 7             "Who is controlling Stup?"

 8             And you say:

 9             "We allowed a Croatian municipality to be established in Stup and

10     to have control half-half."

11             And further down, Mladic says that food was unloaded near Caritas

12     and that that food should be given to them, that it should go to them.

13     And then you say:

14             "It doesn't cost anything.  It means we'll have to call the MUP.

15     All right, we'll get it done."

16             And he said:

17             "You arrange this with our MUP.  Commander Milenko is here as

18     well ..."

19             And so on.

20             And towards the bottom, it says:  "Agreed."

21             And now:

22             "This is a matter of convention.  When can I see you?"

23             Et cetera.

24             First of all, Mladic doesn't know who has Stup under their

25     control on the 24th of May, which speaks of the lack of communication

Page 13797

 1     involved.  And, secondly, Mladic is saying something, and you are

 2     agreeing; namely, that the Caritas food be allowed to get through and

 3     that they should be allowed to receive it?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right, they were let through.  But there were some

 5     problems there as well, and it was the border police, our border police,

 6     that took care of this; not the regular police, the border police.  These

 7     are two different police forces.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1238, Your Honours.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 30808.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This is a telephone conversation on the 26th of May between the

15     minister of justice and Tomo Kovac, your boss, the chief of police in

16     Ilidza, and they are exchanging conventional greetings here.

17             And now can we have the second page.

18             Kovac is complaining here, saying that there are some people who

19     are driving Muslims out.  And Mandic is asking for criminal reports to be

20     filed, for detention to be set.  And Kovac says:

21             "Muslims cannot be expelled from here, from Ilidza."

22             And the one-but-last says:

23             "It's not only a question of the president.  He cannot deal with

24     them either.  There has to be agreement from above."

25             And so on.

Page 13798

 1             Is that what you said, that refugees from Central Bosnia were

 2     intolerant of your local Muslims?

 3        A.   Well, precisely, precisely.  Mr. Kovac is saying here that we in

 4     Ilidza cannot manage all of this by ourselves, and he is asking for

 5     someone to be sent in, some armed formation from the top, a special

 6     police unit or a special MUP unit, to help us, because Ilidza is already

 7     chock-a-block full of refugees, people have nowhere to live.  Various

 8     places, like Nedzarici, although they are under our control, there are no

 9     Serbs living there, but there is the population of 2.000 to 3.000, and

10     they only go in during the night.  No one wants to live there.

11        Q.   What about what Mandic says previously:

12             "Let us see about this president of the Crisis Staff."

13             And Tomo Kovac is saying:

14             "It's not only a question of the president.  He cannot deal with

15     them either."

16             This has to do with the president of the Crisis Staff; right?

17        A.   Yes, but it's not the Crisis Staff that is number one here.  It

18     is the civilian police that is in charge here, where Mr. Kovac is in

19     charge, and it is the police of the Army of Republika Srpska that is in

20     charge, the Command of the Ilidza Brigade, because the conversation

21     pertains to its area of responsibility.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Their assessment was that you could not manage either

23     without additional police forces, that you cannot deal with all these

24     offences and violations?

25        A.   Yes, exactly.

Page 13799

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Further on, this is what they're saying:  A clear message should

 4     be sent to Ilidza and the armed forces.  And then Kovac says:

 5             "No one made a decision to move the Muslims out."

 6             And this entire conversation, as you can see for yourself, says

 7     that there's this clash between the police and the territorials.  And

 8     then Mandic says:

 9             "It has to be the army.  The Territorial Defence is no more, it

10     has been dissolved."

11             And so on.  And then it says:

12             "Look, they are the army now, but they are now a bit better."

13             And so on:

14             "Only when Karadzic signs --"

15             No, this is what Mandic is saying:  "Nothing else."

16             Only Mladic can reach such a decision; nobody else.

17             Does this correspond to the situation on the 26th of May, 1995,

18     that the Territorial Defence is being transformed into the army and that

19     Ilidza needs additional forces in order to maintain law and order?

20        A.   That is precisely what it means.  On the 20th of May, the

21     Ilidza Brigade was established.  This is what I wish to add here:  We

22     cannot manage this on our own.  Secondly, if somebody is speaking of the

23     president of the Crisis Staff, while I have already started functioning

24     as the president of the municipality as of the 20th, and I'm keeping both

25     offices in my hands, I do not have any other instrument in my hand but

Page 13800

 1     the civilian police.  That is not under me, and also the army is not

 2     under me either, so my powers are declarative.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can this be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1239, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1553, please.

 8             No, this isn't it.  65 ter 1553.

 9             Yes, now we have it.

10             This is a bulletin of daily events for the 2nd and 3rd of June,

11     1992.

12             Can we have the next page, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Prstojevic that what is being described here

15     are break-ins and assaults against Serb families, Cetic, Markan Dugonjic,

16     and then:

17             "We were informed that members of the Green Berets were moving

18     from the direction ..."

19             And so on and so forth.

20             Doesn't this first part show that the Serbs are equally unsafe in

21     all that chaos, just like the Muslims?  Actually, on that particular day,

22     it was the Serbs that suffered more than the Muslims; right?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can this be admitted?

Page 13801

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1240, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly have P1110.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a conversation of yours taking place on the 2nd of June.

 6     You are talking to Mr. Mandic, minister of justice, the same day that

 7     that bulletin of daily events pertained to.

 8             Can we have the next page, please.

 9             Momcilo Mandic is saying:

10             "It came up there to the government and to us that you are

11     giving --"

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot find this.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 3.  It's not right in Serbian:

14             "It has come to our attention and that of the government that you

15     are issuing ultimatums to some Turks, evicting people from certain

16     settlements, and people respond badly to it.  They are taking advantage

17     of this, those Muslims in the media ..."

18             And so on.

19             And you say:  "Yes."

20             And he's explaining, and this next response is saying:

21             "Well, please, don't do anything like that.  First consult

22     Djeric ..."

23             That's the prime minister; right?

24             "... and those people up there.  We cannot cleanse either Ilidza

25     or any other place ethnically."

Page 13802

 1             That is the position of the government -- at least, that is the

 2     position of the government and political leadership, is how we reached

 3     the top.  In some settlements, you gave them 24 hours to move out, and

 4     they -- and so on.

 5             You say:  "Where did I say that?"

 6             And then he's giving an answer.  And then you are saying:

 7             "I know, but we did not say that, not in public.  That's not our

 8     policy."

 9             Mandic says:

10             "I know.  I know what it should be and how we should operate."

11             And you're saying:

12             "Yes, but we did not say that in public anywhere, nor did we

13     write it."

14             And then Mandic is explaining that some Fadil Musanovic, a

15     Muslim, should be appointed a judge.  And I don't think I have to read

16     this, anybody can read this.

17             So let's have the next page.

18             You're saying:

19             "With the best of intentions, in view of what the Muslims did as

20     for the blockade in Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija, it's been a month

21     now that no Serbs have left."

22             And Mandic says:

23             "I know.  My sister and my father are there."

24             And you're saying:

25             "No one got out of there, although we are allowing them to leave

Page 13803

 1     immediately.  Let them take 5.000 Muslims from there, and let them allow

 2     that many Serbs to leave.  We are not in a position to do that.  We are

 3     not in a position to let someone work.  Our misdemeanors court has not

 4     received a single report yet, no one has submitted any."

 5             And he says:

 6             "Well, make Tomo Kovac do that."

 7             And so on.

 8             Can we have the next page, please, the last page.

 9             And it says here:

10             "Please discuss this with your people."

11             Tomo Kovac:  "Work on that so the people would be punished,

12     because these criminals and profiteers are extremely active."

13             And Prstojevic says:  "That's right."

14             "But, you see, only the other day we received -- actually, we

15     received --"

16             And then further on, you say:

17             "Yes, the 'Official Gazette' number 6.  We only received that the

18     day before yesterday."

19             And you're saying:

20             "Only now can we have a legal basis for this, we can start

21     working."

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Now, my first question:  Is it correct that there were a lot of

24     rumours that were going around, and propaganda, bad-mouthing, saying that

25     some things that actually never happened did happen?

Page 13804

 1        A.   That is correct.  But this speech demands an analytical approach

 2     and explanation, because the Prosecution, for reasons unknown to me,

 3     ascribe major significance to this speech, and I don't know why.  When

 4     you approach it from an analytical aspect, you can see that I immediately

 5     told the minister that this was not correct.  When I listen, what was

 6     said, and I have it in the Serbian on the page that is in front of me, I

 7     use the word "reci kaze" [phoen] because I'm surprised, "do tell, say."

 8     But then when he told me what it was, I immediately told him, Well, where

 9     did I say that?  I didn't say that.

10             I simply don't know what the minister was thinking in stating

11     that incorrect thing, the incorrect thing about the MUP and then the

12     incorrect thing about the government, because during those 10 days from

13     the 20th of May up to this day, there were no armed battles, there were

14     none.  The Muslims were preparing, regrouping, for the offensive that

15     would be launched on the 8th [Realtime transcript read in error "18th"]

16     of June, so it was quiet.

17             The second thing is at this point in time, Mr. Mandic was sitting

18     in Kula, in the eastern part of Ilidza, where there are five Ilidza local

19     communes.  He can see all the Muslim local communes, Sokolovic Kolonija,

20     Butmir, Hrasnica, Donji Kotorac, better than I could, and he couldn't

21     tell me where I said that.  So I said, We don't have the instruments.

22     Even if we wanted to, we don't have the instruments in our hands, because

23     the military is independent and the MUP is independent.  And that is

24     probably what he thought when he was speaking with Kovac, meaning

25     individuals that were not under control were the ones who were creating

Page 13805

 1     the problems.  I clearly said our politics is -- it's not our policy to

 2     issue ultimatums to remove people, but the investigators were proceeding

 3     along their own track, and so on and so forth.  And in the end, you can

 4     see that he bad-mouthed the MUP, saying that the MUP was stealing,

 5     looting, they weren't doing anything, which is quite incorrect.

 6             In my testimony from 2003, where I looked at this speech of mine

 7     analytically, Mr. Mandic pulled back, and at one point he said, All

 8     right, that does not refer to Ilidza.

 9             Simply, this is not correct, and nobody can prove that an

10     ultimatum was issued anywhere.  They cannot bring one single witness

11     forward, a Muslim witness, to confirm that.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             In the transcript, it should say the 8th of June as the start

14     date of the offensive, not the 18th of June.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you recall that in the conversation of the 26th of May, you

17     said that Alija Izetbegovic was bad-mouthing you in the media, and do you

18     recall that there was a lot of propaganda and a lot of lies that were

19     published, among other things, about Ilidza too?

20        A.   Yes, I do remember that, Mr. President, but let me remind you.

21     When we established the crisis -- when the Muslims established their

22     Crisis Staff for Bosnia and Herzegovina in May, and the Croats did that

23     in September 1991, immediately, according to socialist methods, in a

24     strategic way they took the initiative into their own hands and declared

25     the Serbs as the aggressors.  We have that in our documents, where it is

Page 13806

 1     said, literally, "name the aggressor."  And throughout the whole war, it

 2     was the propaganda that got to us, because they were lobbying numerous

 3     journalists.  The most correct were the military analysts.

 4             Let me give you an example of Viktor Bezruchenko.  In all his

 5     testimony to date, I never had any problems with military analysts.  We

 6     would resolve what's what in five minutes, because they know the

 7     situation, whereas investigators don't understand many things.  They

 8     ascribe importance to them, and they don't have that importance.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we now have D416 for a minute, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And while we're waiting, let me ask you this, Mr. Prstojevic:

13     You wrote to the government about using abandoned houses and flats, and

14     on the 5th of June, 1992, the government -- the secretary of the

15     government gives you a response; isn't that right?  You say -- and says

16     that:

17             "The government finds that citizens whose apartments or houses

18     have been destroyed may obtain only temporary solutions for occupancy of

19     deserted houses or apartments."

20             And they say:

21             "The government will make a proposal for a special

22     regulation ..."

23             Do you remember that problem; that you sent an inquiry to the

24     government as to what to do on this matter, and the government replied

25     with this letter?

Page 13807

 1        A.   Yes, I remember that, and I will add only this:  Before this

 2     happened, the government will adopt legislation to regulate this

 3     particular area.  We sealed abandoned apartments on our own initiatives,

 4     Serbs, Muslim and Croat apartments.  This didn't yield any results,

 5     because practically this was a sign that the apartment was free.  And

 6     then en masse, break-ins occurred, and that's why we were asking the

 7     government what to do.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The Prosecution showed you P1515 in the case.  This

 9     is a conversation of the 25th of June, 1992, where, in that intercept,

10     the awarding of Muslim apartments to Serbs is referred to.  Before that,

11     on the 26th -- actually, we're talking about the 5th of June, and this is

12     admitted.

13             Can we move on.

14             Giving permissions was actually based on this letter by the

15     government; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, but it was on a temporary basis.  These certificates or this

17     permission to move into an apartment was of a temporary nature.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 11258, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This was also given to Serbs and Croats -- to anyone who lived in

21     Ilidza; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, of course, of course.

23        Q.   And is this the decision regulating the allocation of

24     accommodation or flats?

25             Actually, we can move to page 2 immediately.  You can see it

Page 13808

 1     better on that page.

 2             Isn't it correct that an apartment is being -- is this

 3     Kata Timotija, a Croat?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And that an apartment is being issued to her for her use, because

 6     her house had been damaged in the war, and this is resolved as in the

 7     dispositive?

 8        A.   Yes, of course.  You can see in the preamble that these are --

 9     this is a decision based on the instructions.

10        Q.   And it's about temporary occupation, isn't it, of the apartment;

11     right?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can we admit this, please?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1241, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D111 for a minute,

18     please.  D111.  It's a translation.

19             Can we zoom on it a little bit, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This has been signed by me on the 23rd of August, 1993

22     [as interpreted], so I'm a little bit lagging behind on these matters

23     that have already been regulated by the government.  In the introduction,

24     it says:

25             "It has become common for local people to move into empty flats

Page 13809

 1     instead of refugees, and they sometimes even retain some kind of 'right'

 2     to several flats.

 3             "The occurrence of abandoned flats is a wartime issue, and so are

 4     refugees.  This means that both of these occurrences are of a temporary

 5     nature."

 6             And then I issue this instruction in what way temporary

 7     accommodation can be awarded and to whom.

 8             Do you recall these instructions?  I think that they were

 9     published in the "Official Gazette" and issued to every municipality.

10        A.   I know about this, and I know about a series of measures

11     requiring urgent action issued by the government.  The situation was

12     similar in other municipalities, too.  There were scores of thousands of

13     Serbs who had been relocated from other municipalities.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last sentence

15     by the witness.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 16766.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Prstojevic, did you say what other

18     municipalities are that you referred to?  The interpreters couldn't hear

19     the last words of your previous answer.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant referred to the Ilidza

21     municipality and the area of combat, the whole area covered by the

22     front-lines.  Our population was fleeing as well, so that in our

23     municipality, we had whole settlements where our citizens couldn't live,

24     so we had to dissolve with the housing issues in the depth of the

25     territory, where it was safer.  So we had to give solutions to those who

Page 13810

 1     came from Central Bosnia, from Sarajevo, and also to those who came to us

 2     from our own municipality.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 16776, 65 ter 16776.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a document by the Serbian municipality of Ilidza of the

 6     21st of July, and you can see that it says here what all the outstanding

 7     issues on the agenda are.  It states:

 8             "Take all measures to liberate, preserve and surround the

 9     territory of Ilidza Serb municipality, and have civil authority in place

10     in the real sense of that word.

11             "Also, all measures are to be taken to preserve the necessary

12     unity of citizens ..."

13             Does this mean regardless of their ethnicity and religious

14     affiliation?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And then it says:

17             "In order for work and life to function on the territory of

18     Ilidza municipality, the military authorities and the

19     Ilidza Police Station are obliged to execute their tasks and do their

20     work with devotion, fairly and conscientiously."

21             Can we look at the next page, please.

22             Everything is important, but what it says here:

23             "Pay special attention to citizens leaving Ilidza municipality."

24             And then a bit lower, it says:

25             "Strictly take care about all material goods and preventing

Page 13811

 1     robbery, loot, and all other forms of crimes in the area of the Ilidza

 2     municipality.  Therefore, misdemeanor, criminal and other measures must

 3     immediately be taken to prevent any abuse or possible crime of any kind."

 4             Is this an authentic document, and were these the things that the

 5     civilian authorities attempted to do?

 6        A.   Yes, this is an authentic document.  I think I have the original

 7     even with me here.  And I think this is a conclusion from a meeting of

 8     myself, as the president of the municipality, and the municipal

 9     functionaries.  I always tried to get the most responsible people

10     together as a working consultative meeting, where we could agree and

11     establish what to do, then turn that into a written document, into a

12     record of the meeting, and then move to implementation.  At the following

13     meeting, we would then go over what things were done and what things were

14     not done.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we admit this, please?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1242, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 1418.  This

20     is a book of duty transfer at the police.

21             Can we now look at Serbian page 30 and English page 16.

22             The entire document is worth looking at, but we don't have time

23     for that.

24             Can we look at page 30 in the Serbian.  In the English, page 16.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13812

 1        Q.   Does it not state here:

 2             "Upon the permission of the commander, Andrej Juretic, son of

 3     Zdravko, born on 2nd February ...," and so on and so forth, "... was

 4     brought in.  The same person, with the approval of the commander, was

 5     sent to the barracks.  At 1130, the Crisis Staff from Kasindol arrested

 6     Pero Golijanin from Kasindolska Street.  The same person was released

 7     after being questioned and with the approval of operative worker

 8     Luka Majsorovic [phoen]."

 9             And then it goes on:

10             "At 1330 hours, the military police from Kasindol arrested

11     Dusan Matic ..."

12             And:

13             "At 1530 hours, the Crisis Staff from Lukavica arrested

14     Daliborka Delberovic."

15             Are these all Serbs that are being arrested by the police?

16        A.   The bottom four are completely Serbian, and these are males,

17     military conscripts.  The first one at the top, I don't know, but it's --

18     well, the first person could be a Croat.  But it's evident that this is a

19     military conscript that is being brought in, and this is a kind of spot

20     check.

21        Q.   So the basis for this arrest is not ethnicity, but some other

22     kind of action; right?

23        A.   No, it's evident that these are military conscripts who are being

24     arrested for the purpose of mobilisation.  It's a check of what they're

25     doing.  Are they walking around or what?

Page 13813

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 26 in the

 2     Serbian -- in the English, and page 28 in the Serbian.  48 in the

 3     Serbian, actually.

 4             That is not 48, I think.  It must be 16.  Yes, yes, yes, that's

 5     it.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So this is the 1st of July, 1992.  This is a description of all

 8     the things that happened that day.  It states:

 9             "The telephone is still not working."

10             And then the entire document, until the end, at least up to the

11     28th of July, reports from day to day that the telephone line, for

12     example --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please be asked to repeat the

14     number.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   The telephone is still not working, so on each page it is noted

17     that the phones are faulty, they're not working.  Is it your information

18     as well that your phones were cut off and you had difficulty getting

19     anybody outside of Serbian Sarajevo?

20        A.   Well, practically as of the 18th of June, 1992, when fighting

21     took place during the June offensive launched by the Muslims, which

22     lasted 50 days, since the PTT office was close to UNPROFOR in Nedzarici,

23     on the 18th of June the telephone lines of the entire southern area were

24     cut off, Vojkovici, Grlica, Krupac, Kasindol, Kotorac, and parts of

25     Dobrinja, and this would remain the case through to the end of the war,

Page 13814

 1     with the exception of the military police and MUP telephone lines, which

 2     would eventually be up and running.  In the civilian area, we would only

 3     have two telephone lines available and one line at a later date in

 4     Dobrinja.  In other words, around 10.000 inhabitants had no telephone

 5     lines that were operational as of the 18th of June, and the situation was

 6     the same for the military and the army -- and the MUP, save for the few

 7     lines that they had.  It was the Muslims who cut off these lines in the

 8     PTT switchboard facility in Nedzarici.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can this be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  What is the 65 ter number of this, Mr. Karadzic?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1418, 1418.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, it will be admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1243, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have P2450, P2450.

17             This is a programatic declaration of the Ilidza SDS for the

18     wartime period, and it goes on to say:

19             "In all places and at all times --"

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter isn't aware of where

21     Mr. Karadzic is quoting from.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All those -- item 6 in English.

23             Can we have the next page or two pages from here.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Item 6, you have it there.  Were you able to read it for

Page 13815

 1     yourself?

 2        A.   I have that document with me.  It's clear that this was our

 3     position, that we were struggling to have the rule of law.  The

 4     Prosecutor asked me who the dragon was.  Well, we meant that it was the

 5     Islamic fundamentalism.

 6             Let me tell you that St. George is the patron of Ilidza, is the

 7     patron saint of Ilidza, and I have here a document from the Ilidza

 8     municipality documents bearing the symbol of St. George killing the

 9     dragon.

10        Q.   You didn't say "black vultures."  You said "the black dragon"?

11        A.   We said, The dragon with black wings.

12        Q.   And that is the dragon?

13        A.   And that is the life of St. George, the Christian saint.  And I

14     have here the image of St. George killing the dragon and saving a girl.

15        Q.   Thank you, because I asking you this because it was translated

16     that you said "vultures with black wings," and not "dragon."  That's what

17     the translation says.

18        A.   Well, translations at times completely twist the meaning.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 1662,

20     please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This was in February, and we now have a document from April.  If

23     refugees were returning, was it your duty to guarantee their safety?

24        A.   It is absolutely true that we had to ensure the safety of

25     refugees and find accommodation for them.  What's more, some of these

Page 13816

 1     people were looking to find a job.

 2             What I have here with me dating from that period, and

 3     specifically the following month, is a report of the

 4     Serbian National Security, which details the state of security in Ilidza.

 5     There are some 13 bullet points here detailing lack of security, and I'll

 6     name only three.

 7             Fire was opened at a tank from the municipality and brigade

 8     buildings.  Our military police clashed with the civilian police.  And

 9     classic-type murders were committed by a Serb against a Serb, and the

10     authorities of the Croatian Herceg Bosnia issued 150 permissions for

11     people to move into the Ilidza municipality, and we honoured them.

12             I have here a document from General Mladic allowing the passage

13     of 2.000 Croat refugees from Central Bosnia, Vares and Kiseljak, across

14     our territory for the following couple of months.  There was some

15     soldiers passing through, as ordered by the Main Staff, complete with

16     their weapons.  All of this followed the decision that we issued.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  And can I

18     ask the Trial Chamber if, by their leave, the witness could hand over the

19     documents to the Registry, and perhaps those could, as well, be admitted,

20     the assessment of the State Security of the security situation and the

21     decision by Mladic allowing 2.000 individuals to traverse the area?

22             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1244, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I don't have any problem you get the document from

25     the witness via the Victims and Witnesses Section, but it's up to you,

Page 13817

 1     whether you tender it or not with this witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like these two to be

 3     admitted, at the very least, and I would like Mr. Prstojevic to hand over

 4     to the Registrar all the documents he referred to during his testimony as

 5     sources of the facts he related.

 6             Could these two documents be assigned a number?  I haven't seen

 7     them, but they are authentic, without a doubt.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  There is no basis at this moment to admit any

 9     document we haven't seen.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             Can we now have 65 ter 40200.  This is a transcript of an

12     interview with Mr. Krajisnik on TV about the establishment of

13     Republika Srpska.

14             Can we have the next page, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   In the middle, the document reads:

17             [In English] "We realised that both Yugoslavia and

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina were disintegrated, and on those ruins, of both Bosnia

19     and Yugoslavia, we were laying foundations for the new country.  During

20     those two phases and even afterwards, lots of anarchy appeared, and other

21     things that we did not support appeared as well.  And the law tries to

22     implement that/he is probably referring to decisions they made on the

23     establishment of Republika Srpska/as much as possible.

24             "We also established our own army in the second phase, and that

25     represents the shaping of country's foundations.  The third phase, which

Page 13818

 1     is already behind us, represents enactment of all the laws as the ground

 2     work for the functioning of the country.  And during that enactment of

 3     the laws, we were also dogged by a certain consequences of the

 4     disintegration of Yugoslavia and the federal unit of Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina.  That is, we could not establish absolute regularity of the

 6     functioning of authority, even though it was far and away better than in

 7     the Croatian or Muslim part.  We are now near the end of the third phase,

 8     in which we are putting a crone of that, let me just say, the base of a

 9     certain country."

10             This interview took place on the 1st of January, 1995.  Do you

11     agree that the introduction of a rule of law was a painstaking and

12     long-lasting activity?

13        A.   Yes, I do agree in every respect.  Anyone carrying a gun, in a

14     moment of intoxication or diminished mental capacity, could do anything

15     dangerous, and whoever happened to cross his path, be it a member of a

16     brigade, a civilian, or politician, could be in harm's way.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Was not one such victim the president of the Executive Board of

20     Novo Sarajevo, Udo Obradovic, an excellent man, who was killed by a Serb?

21        A.   Yes, precisely so.  On the day of his murder, I attended an

22     internal meeting where Mr. Obradovic was present as well.

23        Q.   This is what Mr. Krajisnik said:

24             [In English] "Judges have been elected.  The authorities started

25     to function and apply these laws.  So now in the fourth phase, I expect

Page 13819

 1     that authorities start to function completely and that we integrate,

 2     during the negotiations, our own nationally constructive identity."

 3             [Interpretation] So the fourth stage where it is expected to be

 4     fully operational would commence on the 1st of January, 1995, and not

 5     sooner; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

 8             And I suppose that we will take the break now.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted as Exhibit D1245.

12             And we'll have a break for half an hour.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please conclude by half past

16     1.00.

17             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

18             [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have 65 ter 10876.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While we're waiting for it, Mr. Prstojevic:  Tell us, what was

21     the situation like with regard to water and electricity supply in Ilidza

22     and other areas?

23        A.   You see, you need to know the issue thoroughly.  The water

24     sources for Ilidza originate in the mountains, with the natural fall of

25     the water, and in the underground wells in Ilidza, where water needs to

Page 13820

 1     be pumped out at a certain feature, at Mojmilo, as well as at certain

 2     water-pump stations in Sarajevo which would take it from there.  Let me

 3     tell you that some of the wells at Ilidza were under Serb control, two or

 4     three were at Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica, and one was at Stup, under

 5     the HVO control.

 6             Right from the start, the Muslims would re-siphon the wells at

 7     Kolonija and Mojmilo for their own purposes, which is easily done, and

 8     Vojkovici and Grlica, which are neighbourhoods of Ilidza, would start --

 9     would actually no longer have water as of April of that year.  So the

10     population had to resort to other means.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Look at this document, where, as reasons for the

12     suspension of water supply, was mentioned the constant shelling of

13     Ilidza.  And due to the shelling, the water supply system has been

14     damaged at the pumping station and well site at Bacevo, et cetera.

15             So was this the main reason, specifically shelling of transformer

16     stations and pumping stations, behind the lack of water?

17        A.   What I have before me is the water grid of Ilidza.  The pumping

18     station was some 200 metres away from the Command of the Crisis Staff,

19     which was later to become the Command of the Ilidza Brigade.  It was

20     frequently shelled, and this was also one of the reasons why the staff

21     could not reach their work-place frequently.  There were only two

22     occasions when there was electricity, and both the Serbian and the Muslim

23     areas would have water.  In all the other circumstances where the

24     electricity was not available, nobody would have water because it

25     couldn't be pumped.  The brigadier general --

Page 13821

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... in his book, "The Defence of

 3     Sarajevo," confessed that throughout the war they received their water

 4     supplies from Jahorina, where our leadership was located, because there

 5     was the natural fall of water.  They also received water from Tilava,

 6     which was under the command of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade in the area of

 7     the responsibility of the Ilidza Battalion of Kasindol.  And this is what

 8     he had to say about Ilidza, and I'm quoting:

 9             "When these water sources didn't have electricity," and thus

10     disabling the system, "the town would have no water."

11             But he admitted that the town was lucky to have these wells

12     because there was underground water, so they didn't have any problems.

13             But that particular date, the 4th of August, 1992, several days

14     later the Muslims would launch a fierce offensive against us and have

15     heavy losses.  This was the 31st of July and the 4th of August, and they

16     would sustain the highest losses on these two dates.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have much time.  I have to move on.

18        A.   Let me just tell you, there was a fierce attack on Vojkovici and

19     Ilidza on this day when everything was damaged and destroyed.  I think

20     the document speaks for itself.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can this be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1246, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3083, please.

Page 13822

 1             It's the 27th of January, 1993.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Your director of the public utility company is informing you

 4     about the waterworks situation.  There is a reference to electricity,

 5     problems with central heating.  He says that the pipes are half empty and

 6     have, therefore, frozen and are broken now.

 7             Can we have the next page, please.

 8             So there are many breakdowns.  It is impossible to clean the

 9     clogged pipes.

10             And on the next page, it says that many problems were dealt with,

11     but on that very day, they have 300 breakdowns that were reported.  He is

12     complaining that a lot of water is being wasted when the pipes break

13     down.

14             Do you remember having received this information from the

15     director of the public utilities company?

16        A.   I remember, and I have the original of that report here with me.

17     But I have to tell you more about the 4th of August.

18             UNPROFOR was informed, and the breakdown was repaired within the

19     shortest period of time possible.  I think that by the 12th of August,

20     according to my records, it was supposed to be repaired.  This report is

21     a professional and accurate report.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can this be admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1247, Your Honours.

Page 13823

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 5305 briefly, please.

 2     P5305 [as interpreted], please.  P2305.  It has been admitted as a P

 3     document, and the 65 ter number is 1658.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We have a report here from our State Security Service in Ilidza,

 6     and there are still problems with Brne.  You see what the second

 7     paragraph says; that when the new commander arrived, Colonel Cajic,

 8     Brne's formation felt it would not have the privileges it had had until

 9     then, and they were even getting ready to assassinate him.

10             There is another reference here to the effect that the leadership

11     had ordered their re-subordination and that they did not want to be

12     re-subordinated; that they are bad-mouthing people.  Brne says, for

13     instance, that former JNA officers are a bunch of incompetents, whereas

14     Captain Dragan, Arkan, and he personally are the only ones who are of any

15     use.  Then there is slander of members of the MUP, and so on and so

16     forth.

17             Does this correspond to the situation as it was ?

18             Yes, I read this out too fast.

19             It should be pointed out that, likewise, they were bothered by

20     the civilian authorities, as well as officials of the MUP concerning whom

21     they are saying various things that are untrue, slandering them, saying

22     that they are thieves, criminals, and so on.

23             Is that the situation with this small group that is just lying

24     around in Rakovica and behaving as if they were a foreign body?

25        A.   This is correct.  This group of some 20 men, although others

Page 13824

 1     overestimated because they don't have accurate information, they did not

 2     want to be under the command of the Igman Brigade, but that was not

 3     possible.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we have that old 65 ter number now, 07177, your testimony of

 6     the 15th of June, 2005.  So 07177, and then page 49.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This is your answer that starts with the words:  "Well, I don't

 9     know ..."

10             I don't have to read all of it out.  And you're speaking up until

11     line 11, and you're saying that some groups mentioned at the beginning of

12     a particular telephone intercept, Brne's group, Balkan's group, they only

13     came to Ilidza briefly, as well as some Chetniks from Zvornik, from

14     Republika Srpska.  Arkan's group spent two or three days there.  And you

15     say:

16             [In English] "But we were not in [indiscernible] their presence,

17     and they left Ilidza very quickly.  I cannot tell you the exact date now,

18     but I believe that I have told you at same point ..."

19             [Interpretation] Is this correct, this -- what was said in

20     relation to these groups?

21        A.   Allow me just a bit --

22        Q.   We really haven't got any time.

23        A.   You see, the Prosecutor took advantage of a particular section.

24     He took something out of context to say that I brought people from

25     outside, but this is what I said previously:  We were not bringing people

Page 13825

 1     from elsewhere, from outside.  Generally speaking, we were not.  I heard

 2     that part on the CD the other day.  I have this here in front of me.  And

 3     then he asked me, Who are these people from elsewhere, it has to do with

 4     that conversation with this other man -- Arkan's group, Brne's group and

 5     Balkan's group, and not a single group was there at that point in time.

 6             I say quite clearly, But we did not bring people from elsewhere,

 7     generally speaking.  Again, somebody is translating this and saying:  "We

 8     were not enthralled."  I said, I never worked with any of these people.

 9     I never asked for any of these people.  As a rule, they came of their own

10     free will as an evil.  This is what it says in my interview from 2005

11     [Realtime transcript read in error "1995"], "as an evil."  Ilidza was

12     strong.  We did not need these groups.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             2005.  It is not 1995.  There is a mistake in the transcript.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2005.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 54 in this

17     same document.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is what you say here:

20             "I think there was no need for any special decision, in fact."

21             [In English] "Who took this decision in Ilidza?  Who imposed to

22     these paramilitaries to re-subordinate to the Army of RS?"

23             [Interpretation] This is what you say:  That there was no need

24     for any special decision; that there were pre-existent rules and

25     regulations with regard to mobilisation, and that referred to all of the

Page 13826

 1     population:

 2             "Everybody had to be either encompassed by the military units or

 3     within the MUP, or they had to be under the so-called work obligations."

 4             Is that what you said then?

 5        A.   Yes, and now I confirm.  According to the mobilisation rules

 6     within the federal regulations that were in force, volunteers had to be

 7     part of TO units or military units.  What I have here with me is the

 8     commander -- is the order of the commander of the Ilidza Brigade of the

 9     25th of May to the effect that military conscripts and volunteers are

10     sent to the commands of brigades in order to receive uniforms and to be

11     deployed.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Could these two pages be added to that other document?

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's better to admit one page previous,

15     i.e., from T-14546 to 14522 in its entirety.  It's not very long, just

16     six or seven pages, and one page is just blank.

17             I take it there's no position on your part, Mr. Tieger, to admit

18     those six or seven pages.

19             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour, you're correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  They will be admitted -- added to the previous

21     exhibit, 1221.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we have P1483, General Mladic's diary, page 182 both in

24     Serbian and in English.  The typewritten version in Serbian, please.

25     P1483, on the 2nd of June, 1993, the meeting between the representatives

Page 13827

 1     of the government and the commanders and organs of the

 2     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  So it is page 182.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And now have a look at this.  Galic says:

 5             "There are blockaded forces in Sarajevo.  The 1st Muslim Corps

 6     (11 brigades - around 40.000," he says, "Turks)."

 7             Was that our objective, for them to be blockaded, not for us to

 8     take Sarajevo?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly what General Mladic meant.  However, I know

10     something else.  We never tried to take Sarajevo, and there is no order

11     to that effect, as far as the part of Ilidza is concerned.

12             Secondly, from the 1st Corps, they could already send troops out

13     through the airport, those that would act in co-ordination with

14     Tactical Group South and the 3rd Corps and the Podrinska Brigade, and

15     attack from the outside, attack Serb Sarajevo from the outside.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Please, let us have the next page, page 183, where it says that

18     the problems are poor supplies, moving out, paramilitaries; right?

19             You see here at the top.

20             "... poor supply, moving away, paramilitaries."

21             And then can we have page 185.

22             185, Prstojevic says:

23             "Co-operation with all four brigades at a very high level."

24             Already at that point in time until February -- no, until

25     June 1993, you have 553 dead and 1.876 wounded, excluding civilian

Page 13828

 1     casualties.

 2             Can we now have page 190, please, 190 from this document, both in

 3     Serbian and in English.

 4             The president of Novo Sarajevo says the municipal numbers around

 5     30.000 people, including 1.500 Muslims and 200 Croats, and he complains:

 6             "We are constantly exposed to sniper fire coming from the right

 7     bank of the Miljacka River, Mojmilo, Asimovo, and Debelo Brdo."

 8             Can we have 191, the next page.

 9             The president of the Assembly, Krajisnik, says:

10             "That is the most difficult front."

11             And Mladic is saying that it's wrong that the military do not

12     have IDs.  And he's saying:

13             "How can there be any paramilitary formation in the territory of

14     Sarajevo?  Paramilitaries are never going to bring freedom."

15             The next page both in Serbian and in English:

16             "They will never bring freedom, and criminals cannot create a

17     state."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you remember this meeting of the Sarajevo municipalities and

20     General Mladic?

21        A.   I remember.  But you see, practically, paramilitaries are

22     formally under the command, but every now and then they do something

23     apart from the command that is not referred to in their orders, and that

24     is why there is this reference to paramilitaries.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In the Serb municipality of Ilidza, in the government

Page 13829

 1     there, was there a person called Dragisa Dragisic?  Was there any

 2     official in the government there called Dragisa Dragisic?

 3        A.   No, no, not in the government, not in the SDS of Ilidza.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now have 65 ter 30766 to see who it was that called groups

 6     to come to Ilidza.  65 ter 30766.  This is a conversation between some

 7     Valter - this is obviously a conspiratorial name - and Legija, and then

 8     an unknown man, and then Zeljko Raznatovic and Legija.

 9             Can we have the next page, please.

10             The last entry or reply states Legija says:

11             "Everything --"

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not see where that was.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

14             It's not in the transcript because of the speed, and then the

15     document will be tendered anyway.

16             So he says what was promised or what was said did not pass, so he

17     had to organise on his own.  And then it states:

18             "He did not link us up with anybody ."

19             And that he called the Crisis Staff himself; that it was

20     disorganised, there's lack of discipline:

21             "As soon as the first casualties occurred, everything became

22     completely disorganised and discipline broke down."

23             Can we have the next page, please.

24             It says that he was completely encircled there.

25             The next page in the Serbian here, it says:

Page 13830

 1             "He never connected us with anybody."

 2             Can we have the next page.

 3             He was encircled, there were wounded, and that in the middle of

 4     battle, he says:

 5             "These hicks stole their vehicle and escaped from the front."

 6             Can we have the next page, please.

 7             It says here that it's that vehicle, and then it says here that:

 8             "You cannot ..."

 9             And then he curses.  When you take him to battle, he gets to his

10     house.  And then he says:

11             "I am proceeding no further.  My house has been liberated."

12             And then it goes on with a swear word of some sort, and then it

13     continues.  He talks about Juka and taking prisoners, and then he says:

14             "Yesterday, I had --"

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note:  We do not see the

16     original.

17             JUDGE KWON:  It's impossible to follow.  What is your question?

18     And I see the time.  Put your question to the witness.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   It's my question:  This Dragisa Dragisic, and we will see that

21     here, some Dragisa Dragisic, called them.  This is, let's say on -- first

22     of all, on the next page, it says that the chief of the SUP did not allow

23     anything to happen to those prisoners.  He said:

24             "These are neighbours ..."

25             And so on and so forth.  Well, if we get the next page, we are

Page 13831

 1     going to see that; in the English as well.

 2             And then on page ERN 0329-0475, it says that Dragisa Dragisic,

 3     who had called them and promised, did not keep -- make good on his

 4     promise and that they did not manage to make any connections.

 5             Did these people appear completely without any connections to

 6     you, as is indicated by this telephone conversation?

 7        A.   This is absolutely correct, but I think this is

 8     Dragisa Ivilja [phoen] that is involved here, who was not under any kind

 9     of control by the police even before the war.  It's not true that he had

10     100 prisoners in the place where there was battle underway.  This could

11     be something else.  This group completely came along private lines, just

12     like all the others.

13        Q.   Some witnesses here mentioned that there was some private

14     arrangements and so on.  So that is what you mean, isn't it, when you say

15     that definitely this Dragisa did not represent any kind of authorities in

16     Ilidza?

17        A.   Right.  He was not under the control of the Ilidza authorities

18     before the war.  This also refers to Sinisa Ilic, called Monga [phoen].

19     I know this from the government, from the Assembly, before the war.

20     These are people who belong to the Ilidza underground.

21        Q.   At 0329-0476, it says:

22             "It went well for a couple of days before there was shooting."

23             Does that mean they had come a few days before the firing, tried

24     to organise some kind of training?  He says:

25             "We tried to organise some training."

Page 13832

 1             And then:

 2             "There was lack of organisation.  Even Serbs were firing at each

 3     other."

 4             And then already Zeljko Raznatovic is speaking here.  He repeats:

 5             "Yes.  When they come to their house," he says, "I have defended

 6     my house, I'm not going any further."

 7             Was this also something that used to happened?

 8        A.   They came on the 12th, in the evening.  On the 13th, they were

 9     going all over Ilidza.  On the 14th, Sarajevo attacked us.  They took

10     part in the fighting.  And then after the 15th, I don't know anything

11     about them.  This is what Territorial Defence battling meant, battling in

12     front of your own house.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

14             Can we now tender this, please?  And then you can identify the

15     areas.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1248, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more question, one

19     document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, I haven't heard from you on this.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I wasn't going to enter into the intercept, but I

22     was concerned about the encroachment on the time that was allotted.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I rely on his statement that this is going to

24     be his last question.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D0 -- 1D1088.  This is

Page 13833

 1     a map.

 2             I'm sorry that we are not able to show you other maps for the

 3     Trial Chamber to be able to see where the lines went along your streets

 4     and between houses, but we are going to do that at some other time.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you recognise this map, Mr. Prstojevic, and do the blue areas

 7     represent Serb-populated neighbourhoods, the green ones Muslim-inhabited

 8     areas, and the ochre-yellow Croat-inhabited areas?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And is Hrasnica, shown here, as being under the control of the

11     Muslim Army --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Before you continue:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  I guess I just prematurely arose after what was

14     apparently the last question, but apparently the questions continue.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All I wanted to say was:

17        Q.   Is this correctly shown, how the neighbourhoods with Serb, Muslim

18     and Croat majorities indicate that it is mostly the Serbs who controlled

19     the Serbian neighbourhoods and the Muslims who controlled the Muslim

20     neighbourhoods?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the first part of

22     the witness's answer because the speakers were overlapping.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Prstojevic?  The

24     interpreters didn't hear you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered in the affirmative.

Page 13834

 1             Hrasnica was under Muslim control and has a wide exit towards

 2     Igman, which you can see.  However, this map is of a very large scale.

 3     You would need to have a military scale of 1:100.000 ratio where you

 4     could see streets where Serbs were on one side and Muslims on the other.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please put your signature and today's date

 7     on this map?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  It won't be necessary.  He didn't mark anything.  We

 9     cannot admit it as is.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he identified the map as

11     saying that the colours of the neighbourhoods correspond to the lines of

12     the fronts and that we can see how the lines lie in Ilidza.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, I did mark that on

14     other maps.  I have better maps on me right now.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I said it can be admitted as it is, without the

16     witness having to sign this document.  I don't think we need a

17     translation.

18             Yes, we'll admit it.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1249, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

22             Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Tieger:

25        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I'd like to begin with an issue that was raised

Page 13835

 1     by the accused at approximately page 33 today, and that was in connection

 2     with a portion of your testimony during the Krajisnik case that began on

 3     transcript page 14631.  And he read out to you a portion that derived

 4     from the question:

 5             "Well, if they weren't being expelled in any organised fashion,

 6     then in what fashion were they being expelled?"

 7             And then you went on to describe that in the areas that -- where

 8     combat activities were being conducted, that Muslims were driven out,

 9     et cetera.

10             Now, that conversation, Mr. Prstojevic, continued.  And as we --

11     there was a further discussion about Bascarsija, another question about

12     detainees and so on.

13             But when we get to page 14635 of that testimony, it continued:

14             "With respect to the position on how to deal with the situation

15     where combat activities emerge, was that your decision or a decision

16     taken at higher levels and passed on to you?"

17             You stated to the effect that when combat activities emerged,

18     things took their course.  The decisions were not taken individually, but

19     rather by collective bodies; in this particular case, by the

20     Crisis Staff.  You said it was a tumultuous period.

21             On the next page, the Judge asked you to respond to the question,

22     rather than provide a lot of things.  Then the Judge asked you the

23     question about what you said in a previous -- about a previous intercept

24     in which you were a participant and in which you said:

25             "I have a decision from before."

Page 13836

 1             And he asked:

 2             "What was that decision from before?"

 3             And you said at first:

 4             "I don't know which decision is being referred to."

 5             The Judge said:

 6             "Nevertheless, you just told us what the subject of the decision

 7     was.  It was about the position."

 8             And he said:

 9             "That suggests you know more about the decision, as you're

10     telling us now."

11             You said:

12             "That's precisely why I was telling you this.  The war situation

13     dictated the moves to be taken ..."

14             And so on.

15             And then continuing on to 14637, the Judge continued to press you

16     about that, saying he understood that decisions have to be taken, but

17     that's not a decision from before.  That refers to a decision that had

18     already been taken.  You said:

19             "You have to understand what I'm saying.  We had taken certain

20     views and positions to enable us to know how to react in a given

21     situation, because we would have failed entirely had we not known what to

22     do when."

23             The Judge asked -- you said at some point you couldn't recall

24     precisely what they were, they were not in written form.  The Judge said:

25             "Would that include expelling the population, including the

Page 13837

 1     civilian population?"

 2             You said:

 3             "It would mean that the population had to be moved out if the

 4     entire area was under a threat, or if it meant that the entire area would

 5     be lost to the enemy, or if it meant that the population would be in

 6     grave danger.  This is precisely what happened in Kotorac, which was

 7     mentioned in yesterday's intercept."

 8             The Judge asked:

 9             "Do I understand that if circumstances required you to do so,

10     that you would remove the civilian population from the area?"

11             You said:

12             "Yes, but that meant that both the Serbian and Muslim populations

13     were moved out, and this also meant that the -- and the Croats as well,

14     and the population itself would move out on their own initiative."

15             Mr. Prstojevic, those were your -- that was your testimony in

16     2005, specifically, June 16th, 2005, in the course of responding to the

17     question that the accused initially brought your attention to; correct?

18        A.   That is correct, but this actually is where you put some 10 or 15

19     questions.  As for the intercept of the 14th of June between myself and

20     Dragan Lubura, when there was a horrendous offensive by Muslim forces in

21     that area, because they had already captured certain sections of Ilidza,

22     I never used the term "protirivanje" [phoen], "to expel."  And this is

23     all right.  Yes.

24             MR. TIEGER:  You've been explaining for over 18 hours now.  I

25     have very few minutes to ask you a few questions.  You confirmed my

Page 13838

 1     question.

 2             Your Honour, I would tender these pages, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, do we have an intercept in which

 4     Mr. Prstojevic allegedly had said:

 5             "I have a decision from before"?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I believe that that question was in response to what

 7     is now P1492, Your Honour, in the context.  And I'm happy to tender the

 8     pages relating to that, but I believe that that is -- that that was in

 9     connection with his testimony in relation to that intercept.

10             JUDGE KWON:  So it's as part of P1494?

11             MR. TIEGER:  One moment, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Can we up-load it briefly.

13             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Your Honour.  The particular passage

14     is Mr. Prstojevic:

15             "Well, what should we do?  Would it be good if we gave it a

16     thought and if we organised people from outside to expel them all.

17     Nobody needs to be shot or killed.  Everybody expelled."

18             And then he continues -- that's after his interlocutor says:

19             "That would be the right move."

20             And he continues:

21             "That is a bit -- let's say that you make preparations.  I have a

22     decision from before."

23             And that's what the reference in these pages is to.

24             JUDGE KWON:  What is the exhibit number?

25             MR. TIEGER:  In our case, P1492.  It's --

Page 13839

 1             JUDGE KWON:  92, not 94.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, an intercept dated the 14th of June, 1992.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             We'll add those pages to the existing Prosecution exhibit.  Do we

 5     have a separate number for the Prosecution?  What was it?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What was it?  P2513.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   I'd like to move next to a discussion that took place around

10     pages 59 through 60 or so of today's testimony, Mr. Prstojevic, and

11     that's a discussion of the conversation that you had with Mr. Mandic --

12        A.   May I get -- may I get a chance to explain the term

13     "protirivanje" and the decision before that?

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think you explained several times before.

15             MR. TIEGER:  It has been the subject of testimony already.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never used the word

17     "protirivate" [phoen], "to expel."  The decision is in my head.  Where we

18     have battle or fighting, we know what we need to do, from the military

19     point of view, from the military aspect.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's move on.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And we have the intercept

22     and the audio in evidence, and that can be listened to extensively, if

23     necessary.

24        Q.   Again, turning to the intercept of the 2nd of June, you testified

25     today, Mr. Prstojevic, that you insisted -- you said to Mr. Mandic:

Page 13840

 1             "Where did I say that?"

 2             And then you also added that:

 3             "The investigators proceeded along their own track."

 4             In fact, that was the subject of testimony during the Krajisnik

 5     case as well, during which you were asked a number of questions about

 6     that intercept.

 7             First, your attention was brought -- and this is beginning at

 8     page 14644.  You were asked about Mandic's comment that his attention is

 9     brought and the attention of the government is brought to the fact you

10     were issuing ultimatums to some Turks, evicting people from certain

11     settlements and so on.  You said you denied it to the minister right

12     away.

13             And moving on to page 14645, you were asked whether you

14     understood that Mr. Mandic was calling because he wanted Musanovic to be

15     put in a position so it could be publicised.  You said that's the way you

16     understood it.

17             You were asked about Mandic further understanding that you were

18     evicting people from certain settlements, and then expressing concern

19     about the publicity that was bringing.  You said you didn't think he was

20     concerned one bit.

21             Then the question was put:

22             "Looking at the intercept, in particular," and you were

23     confronted with the fact that you then tell him:

24             "We didn't say it, not in public."

25             And then again you say:

Page 13841

 1             "Well, we didn't say it in public, nor did we write it."

 2             And then you were asked:

 3             "So you're assuring Mr. Mandic, are you not, that there shouldn't

 4     be any bad publicity because there's nothing public about it?"

 5             And then you say -- you said to Mandic:

 6             "Please, where did I say such a thing?  I don't know.  We never

 7     said that publicly.  This is not our policy."

 8             That continues until the Judges intervene and focus your

 9     attention on the fact that you said "not in public."  And that's

10     Judge Hanoteau speaking at pages 14647, 14648.  That's not the

11     investigators.  And Judge Hanoteau says:

12             "So this is what you're saying."

13             This is at page 14648:

14             "We did not say that, not in public.  We did not say that, not in

15     public."

16             So it seems that you're saying is that you said it, but not in

17     public.  And then, in fact, the next sentence, this is what you say:

18             "We did not say that in public."

19             And you continue until page -- talking about a number of other

20     things, including what happened in Kotorac and expelling civilians in

21     areas where circumstances require the population to leave, or where the

22     population want to leave on their own initiative, and then you begin the

23     answer from Judge Hanoteau by say:

24             "As for the part where I say that we did not say it in public,

25     had this been written or said in public, this would have been

Page 13842

 1     disseminated by the media and it would have disturbed the general

 2     public ..."

 3             Et cetera.

 4             And finally Judge Orie also presses you about -- to please

 5     explain at what point you flatly deny that evictions took place in this

 6     telephone conversation.  You say -- well, on this same page, after this

 7     long intervention where I say:

 8             "Well, yes, but please tell me, wherever did I say this?"

 9             And Judge Orie says, according to a logical interpretation, after

10     quoting you:

11             "You are denying that you said that you are not responsible for

12     their safety or something else.  It's not a denial of any conversation

13     occurring."

14             And he asks you to comment, and you say, in your conversation

15     with the minister, you focus him, saying that:

16             "We had issued an ultimatum to the Muslims in a settlement that

17     they were to move out within 24 hours, and that's what I focused on, and

18     I was denying that."

19             Mr. Prstojevic -- and there's a bit more, but it's on that same

20     page of 14650.

21             Mr. Prstojevic, that is a reflection of your responses to the --

22     to questions raised about the 2 June intercept with Mr. Mandic during the

23     course of your testimony in the Krajisnik case; correct?

24        A.   It's not correct.  An ultimatum was not broadcast anywhere.  I'm

25     not a trumpeter to climb up on a hill and announce this or that.  I

Page 13843

 1     explained this speech precisely in 2003.

 2             Fadil Musanovic is alive.  He can be called as a witness.  At

 3     that time, we did not interfere in the work of the judiciary.

 4             I keep saying if Mr. Mandic knows, where does he know that from?

 5     And this is why I was speaking.

 6        Q.   You had a chance to explain that during the course of this

 7     testimony.  I'm now tendering what you said in the Krajisnik case as

 8     well.  It will be before the Court.

 9             Your Honour, if we could have those pages added, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, as -- could you identify the transcript

11     page numbers, Mr. Tieger?  It's from 14645 to --

12             MR. TIEGER:  14644 to 14650.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             From 146 --

16             MR. TIEGER:  14644 to 14650.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness denied the accuracy of

19     what was written and how it was understood.  He does not accept that as

20     his testimony.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Accuracy of the transcript can be checked in other

22     ways.

23             We'll admit this, and this will be added to P2513.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  But before we move on, could you give the exhibit

Page 13844

 1     number of that intercept of 2nd of June?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I think that's 1011 --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1110.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, earlier in your testimony, specifically on

 8     Friday, you were asked by the accused, at page 13646, about agreements.

 9     And you said there -- you were asked the question -- excuse me.  You were

10     actually taken to an earlier -- earlier comments you had made from

11     earlier testimony about agreements, and you said there was political

12     activity in Bosnia aimed at seeking a peaceful solution.  The Ilidza

13     leadership went along with that:

14             "No matter what kind of agreement could be reached by our

15     leaders, we would have accepted it."

16             Et cetera.  And you indicated that you stood by what you said.

17             I wanted to now direct your attention to 65 ter 07875, and that's

18     a portion of an interview that took place in 2003.  That's contained at

19     page -- beginning at page 10 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S.

20             The question was asked:

21             "How did you receive the information in relation to the policies

22     that you were meant to apply in Ilidza?"

23             You said:

24             "Mostly there were certain meetings, and that one meeting, if

25     you -- if you don't remember well, you also asked me when the second

Page 13845

 1     phase -- when the local phase was to be activated, a discussion about

 2     that meeting before."

 3             You continue on to the next page.  That's page 11:

 4             "I will say only one sentence about it.  I understood at that

 5     meeting, there was a lot of -- at that meeting, there was a lot of

 6     threatening rhetoric, like if we cannot agree and we cannot find an

 7     agreement, he will do this, this and this, and I'm sorry to use this

 8     word, but we'll fuck their mother, and this last word, in particular, I

 9     mentioned because I heard it and I remembered it well, and the relations

10     or balance were 50:50.  And who will be destroyed, it was not known.  It

11     was relative."

12             And you were asked, after you said that, when you heard those

13     words you quoted, was it your understanding that then it was the case of

14     the ethnicity being imposed and one being destroyed, and you said:

15             "In essence, this should not be understood that -- that roughly,

16     but, in essence, it's division by hook or by crook or in a peaceful

17     manner, or by force."

18             And then you continued.  You were asked:

19             "Did you understand that the goal was to -- that after that

20     meeting, that the goal was to achieve ethnic separation by any means?"

21             And you said at page 12:

22             "Exactly in that way if they don't find the solution or

23     agreement.  But since we were dissatisfied with that, we did not take

24     certain steps to implement things, but naturally the time will cause

25     things to happen."

Page 13846

 1             And then it moves on to a discussion of the strategic objectives

 2     which I may refer your attention to in a moment.

 3             Mr. Prstojevic, that was a reflection of your discussion in 2003

 4     concerning the issue of agreement or what might happen if no agreement

 5     was reached; correct?  And that was on the 27th of November, 2003.

 6        A.   I don't know what it is you're asking me here.  What was the date

 7     of the meeting that we had over coffee, Markovic -- where we were

 8     informed at a meeting --

 9        Q.   That's what you said to investigators about that issue when you

10     spoke to them in 2003; correct?

11        A.   That's correct.  But what was the date of the meeting we are

12     discussing right now?  Do you have the date?

13        Q.   I think you're referring there to the --

14             MR. TIEGER:  First of all, Your Honour, let me -- I will direct

15     the witness's attention to that in a moment, but I'd like to tender

16     these -- those pages, please.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

18             The witness isn't clear about what is being discussed, so how can

19     we accept something as being of the witness if he is disowning it?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, when you say you are tendering it, you

21     are tendering it with the video as well?

22             MR. TIEGER:  Correct, Your Honour, yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And audio as well?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

25        Q.   And, Mr. Prstojevic, for your benefit --

Page 13847

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And he also confirmed that's what he said.  We'll

 2     admit it.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2522, Your Honours.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   For your benefit, Mr. Prstojevic, that appears to refer to the

 7     March meeting that you -- the pre-war meeting you spoke about, but the

 8     way I think you described it in your earlier testimony.  And you actually

 9     say, in the course of the exhibit that was tendered, the meeting was

10     sometime before the 1st of April.

11             Now, Mr. Prstojevic, you also advised the Trial Chamber that in

12     the period of early 1992, you and other Bosnian Serbs were following the

13     Assembly closely, and I think you -- that's your testimony at transcript

14     page 13637, in response to a question by the accused.

15             So let me turn your attention quickly to two comments that were

16     made in the early part of 1992 in connection with the issue of agreements

17     or what might happen in the absence of agreements.

18             I'd like to turn first to D00088, which is a -- which is the

19     8th session of the Assembly of the Serbian People of

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 25th of February, 1992, and turn your --

21     direct your attention to two comments.  The first is found at page 21 of

22     the English and page 25 of the Serbian.

23             It's Mr. Krajisnik speaking, and he says:

24             "Today, we must discuss the first item which is crucial for the

25     Serbian people.  Gentlemen, we have two options:  One, to fight by

Page 13848

 1     political means, to make the most out of the present time, as a first

 2     phase, or to break off the talks and go for what we have done over the

 3     centuries - win our territories by force."

 4             And, similarly, turning to page 64 of the English and page 81 of

 5     the Serbian.  That's Mr. Krajisnik again, and he says:

 6             "Gentlemen, we want to remain in a single state together with

 7     Serbia, Montenegro, the Independent Autonomous Region of Krajina, now the

 8     Krajina state, and the rest.  We just need to agree on the method to

 9     achieve this.

10             "If we don't want to do this by certain methods, let us put a

11     stop to it.  You know what our profession has always been - to wage war."

12             Mr. Prstojevic, as someone who was following the Assembly closely

13     during that period of time, were you aware of this position by the

14     Bosnian Serb leadership, and did it conform to what you related about the

15     pre-war or the pre-April meeting that was the subject of discussion a

16     moment ago?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An objection.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             On what, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

21             Mr. Tieger is implying that a free debate amongst deputies is an

22     official position of the leadership.

23             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry.  I don't like to have to intervene like

24     that, but I have been obliged to interrupt, to stop speaking objections

25     that provide commentary/argument in the presence of the witness.

Page 13849

 1     Whatever -- in any event, whatever the accused thinks the implications of

 2     the evidence might be, I put a very simple question to the witness, and

 3     it's not dependent upon whatever the accused thinks we may or may not be

 4     able to -- be attempting to establish as a result.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any problem with the question.  We don't

 7     agree with you, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain, please?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No.

10             Mr. Tieger, please continue.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Do you have the question in front of you, Mr. Prstojevic, as you

13     recall it?

14        A.   I do have it, and I recall it.

15             When I said that people were following the republican sessions of

16     the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that's true.  There were people who

17     would follow the debates until late at night and would then have to go to

18     work on the following morning.  I didn't do it that way.  I followed the

19     political developments generally, so I'm not privy to the details;

20     specifically, to what the speaker of the Assembly is saying here as a

21     deputy, nor could I have been privy to the details.  What is important

22     are the conclusions of this particular Assembly.  It doesn't matter what

23     one or ten of the deputies may say.  What was important was what found

24     its way into the conclusions and what was subsequently implemented.

25        Q.   If you answer the question, then kindly, especially given the

Page 13850

 1     time, leave it at that, rather than augment it with what you may or may

 2     not think is important.

 3             You were also asked, at page 13618 and 13619, about

 4     transformation, not division.  And the accused asked, at 13619, I

 5     believe:

 6             "Do you remember that our position was transformation, not

 7     division?"

 8             I'd like to direct your attention to the 2003 interview I

 9     referred to that you looked at before.  There, you were asked, at page --

10     and we had stopped at page 12, and I'm continuing now.  You were asked at

11     page 12 about the strategic objectives, and you said you thought that

12     that was being reported at the time in the area of Republika Srpska.

13             And then at page 13, you were asked -- let me continue.  The

14     question was:

15             "We were just discussing the meeting and the fact that ethnic

16     separation was to be achieved.  Did you see these objectives," meaning

17     the strategic objectives, "as being consistent with that order?"

18             You said:

19             "You can also see it in this document.  Our understanding was

20     that we were supposed to divide with Muslims, because in our Serbian

21     language, we have the policy, what is written, that is the way to read

22     it, and that is the way to understand it.  So state or state separation

23     from the other two national communities."

24             And:

25             "Did you understand that that meant that the Serbian people would

Page 13851

 1     be on the Serbian part of the territory and the Muslim people would be on

 2     the Muslim part of the territory?"

 3             And you said:

 4             "Something like that, one by the other."

 5             Mr. Prstojevic, again, is that what you explained when you were

 6     asked about those issues in 2003?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I tender those pages, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Could you identify the page numbers again?  Page 12

10     to 13?

11             MR. TIEGER:  12 to 13, and that would be -- and that's in

12     65 ter 07875.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So that will be added to P2522.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, you were also asked on Friday whether you recall

16     that on the -- and this is a question by the accused, whether you recall

17     that on the 18th of March, an agreement was definitively reached, the

18     so-called Lisbon Agreement, the basis of which was the

19     Carrington-Cutileiro Plan about transforming Bosnia into three ethnic

20     republics, was the question, and your answer was in the affirmative.

21             Again, Mr. Prstojevic, let me direct your attention to a couple

22     of portions of the Assembly.  This is D00090.  This is the 11th session

23     of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, held on the 18th of March, 1992.  And,

24     first, I'd like to turn to page 5 of the English and page 7 of the B/C/S.

25             This is Mr. Karadzic talking about the document that emerged from

Page 13852

 1     the discussions, under the auspices of Mr. Cutileiro's office, and he

 2     said:

 3             "The document has been accepted as a basis -- as a foundation for

 4     further negotiations.  The document has not been signed.  We would never

 5     sign anything that we did not agree upon."

 6             And then turning to page 42 of the English and page 62 of the

 7     Serbian, the accused is again speaking and says:

 8             "What we have here is a process, and the mistake that

 9     Dobrovoje Vidic [phoen] is making has to do with the fact that an

10     unfinished process should not be assessed as if it were a finished one.

11     We have entered into this process with our strategic goals, and we are

12     accomplishing them stage by stage.  We would never have signed this paper

13     as a document, never, never, never.  But at this stage, it would be crazy

14     not to accept it."

15             Were you aware at the time, Mr. Prstojevic, or did you become

16     subsequently aware that no agreement was definitively reached and that,

17     in fact, the accused was reassuring people that the document had not been

18     signed and he would never sign such a document?

19        A.   What we knew at the time, including the entire people, was that

20     the Serbian leadership had accepted the Cutileiro Plan, as did

21     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, but he changed his mind at some point.  That is

22     the extent of what we knew out in the field and what we believed to be

23     true.

24        Q.   Let me turn quickly, as time is moving quickly, to further -- to

25     the issue of paramilitary units, about which there was further discussion

Page 13853

 1     today, indeed in the last session, if I recall correctly, and about which

 2     there was discussion earlier as well.

 3             Specifically, I think on Friday, you reassured the Court that --

 4     in response to a question by the accused, was it correct that at that

 5     moment you did not have any other military formations, except for the

 6     JNA, the MUP and the Territorial Defence, you agreed:

 7             "Absolutely, correct."

 8             And you said it's also absolutely the case that only legal

 9     formations were called upon:

10             "You can only use legal formations to defend yourself."

11             That was at 13662 and 13663, and that was a discussion about the

12     period of time at the beginning of the conflict.

13             Let me direct your attention to a few intercepts that arose

14     during that period.  The first is P2228.

15             This is a telephone conversation between Vojislav Seselj and

16     Branislav Gavrilovic, or Brne.  It takes place in April, I believe around

17     April 21st, 1992, during which Brne is explaining to Seselj about men --

18     their men in the town, 18 of whom are surrounded at that moment.  Seselj

19     points out, toward the bottom of the page in English:

20             "Look, I've just called Pale.  I can't find Radovan, and nobody

21     can find him."

22             Gavrilovic says:  "Yes."

23             But Seselj points out he's left the message that:

24             "If they don't get our men out, we'll withdraw all our men from

25     the front-lines and we'll never deploy them again."

Page 13854

 1             And then he tells Brne not to lose his nerve, and the

 2     conversation continues.

 3             I also want to direct your attention, before I pose a question,

 4     to 65 ter 30702, a conversation between Brne and Kaca Ducic on the

 5     21st of April, 1992.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the 65 ter number?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I failed to do that, Your Honour.  30702.

 8        Q.   As I said, I identified who's speaking.  And Ducic says that --

 9     greets Gavrilovic and says that -- well, first identifies himself or

10     herself as being from "SRNA," and indicates that he just spoke with Vojo:

11             "He told me this:  If they don't pull out, he will withdraw all

12     his forces from the whole ..."

13             It continues on page 2 of the English:

14             "... on the whole -- from the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

15     will not send in new ones."

16             And asks how things are going.

17             Gavrilovic explains, as he did in the intercept with Seselj,

18     that --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Next page for B/C/S as well?

20             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Gavrilovic explains that he had been wounded.  And then as we

22     continue on to the third page, and I believe the third page in B/C/S as

23     well, Gavrilovic again indicates that there are still 18 of his men who

24     are encircled, the subject of the -- some of the discussions.

25             Mr. Prstojevic, Brne Gavrilovic and his unit or units were

Page 13855

 1     operating in the Sarajevo area in April of 1992; isn't that correct?

 2        A.   That is correct, but not at Ilidza.  I was speaking about Ilidza.

 3     There were no paramilitary units in April.  Brne arrived at Ilidza on the

 4     9th of July, 1991 [as interpreted], and you have that piece of

 5     information, and this is April.  I don't know anything about this,

 6     because this has nothing to do with the municipality of Ilidza.  This is

 7     happening somewhere else.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 9             Your Honour, I tender 30702.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript -- the year is 1992,

12     not 1991.  A correction in the transcript.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. TIEGER:  For MFI, of course, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  That will be marked for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P2523, Your Honours.

17             MR. TIEGER:

18        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, yesterday the -- there was discussion about the

19     intercept of -- that referred to Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica,

20     where the people were to be taken, and also the issue of the possibility

21     of people converting on that.  And at -- that discussion took place

22     beginning around 13712 of your testimony.  I shouldn't say "yesterday."

23     That was Friday, of course.  And the accused asked:

24             "What follows next is your feverish activity on the 14th of May,

25     1992.  Do you recall that, Mr. Prstojevic?"

Page 13856

 1             Et cetera.

 2             At page 13713, you said:

 3             "It is true.  On that day, at 5.08, we were attacked at the

 4     front-line, and the front-line was over 20 kilometres' long."

 5             And then you were confronted with P1086, the intercepted

 6     conversation to which I just referred, and the question was:

 7             "It is that conversation during which you were leaving your rifle

 8     aside, it is the end of the day?"

 9             And as you had put it, if it is looked at as an isolated thing,

10     you're like a raven, everything is so dark.

11             Then you're asked about -- again about the fighting that began at

12     5.00 on that day - that's at page 13720 - and about the tremendous

13     psychological pressure and the very real arm pressure, et cetera, that

14     were to explain your comments of that day.

15             Do you recall that testimony, Mr. Prstojevic?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   And I think just to round that out a bit, we also see references

18     at 13722 about:

19             "Look here, Mr. President.  At this moment, I didn't know what my

20     name was.  I had eight killed, fifty wounded, and my territory was in

21     danger."

22             Again, still referring to this intercept.  That was immediately

23     on the heels of directing your attention to the comment in the intercept:

24             "Come on, tell me, the one who would accept the Orthodox faith

25     might stay, and so also the women and the children."

Page 13857

 1             Now, first of all, Mr. Prstojevic, I want to direct your

 2     attention to a couple of other things you've said about this intercept

 3     previously.

 4             First of all, at 65 ter 0723 [sic], at page 8 of the English and

 5     page 7 of the Serbian, again a discussion that took place in 2003, there

 6     you --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The 65 ter number?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  07273, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We had the wrong document.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   There, Mr. Prstojevic, you explained your comments somewhat

12     differently, saying that they were for the purpose of antiwar propaganda,

13     saying:

14             "See, I'm completely -- I'm not precise here, not concentrated

15     when we're talking.  Sokolovic Kolonija will be cleansed for us, Hrasnica

16     will be cleansed, Butmir will be cleansed, that was antiwar propaganda

17     because we were aware that the Muslims could intercept us."

18             And you say the same thing below:

19             "It was counter-intelligence propaganda."

20             First of all, those two references to the counter-intelligence

21     propaganda, Mr. Prstojevic, that's how you explained your remarks in

22     2003; correct?

23        A.   Yes, and I said the other day that a man who was the manager of

24     range chicken --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch what the witness

Page 13858

 1     said.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I focused on was that I spoke

 3     here five hours after it finished.  There was fighting in Kotorac going

 4     on, and now it is said here that it is necessary for the civilian police,

 5     the TO, or the JNA to do what it did.  The population was not expelled.

 6     Rather, they went to the place of their choosing and were escorted by the

 7     police.  Those who opened fire from the fire-arms they had were sent to

 8     prison.  And it was our legal and legitimate right to do this, because on

 9     that day they had launched an attack against Donja Nagica [phoen], which

10     was a Serb-populated area, and they had their units at the ready.  On two

11     occasions, weapons were seized from APCs, submachine guns --

12        Q.   In response to questions by the accused, you made -- you

13     explained to the Court that your comments arose from the fact that there

14     was such a significant attack on May 14th, and you had eight people

15     killed, and so on.

16             But let me direct your attention to what you said during the

17     course of your testimony during the Krajisnik case at page 14 --

18     transcript page 14604.  And, again, that was in the context of -- and as

19     we see on the same page, it's a discussion about:

20             "Tell them, those who convert to the Orthodox religion on the

21     spot, they can stay.  Butmir will be mopped up in time."

22             And so on.  And what you said is:

23             "What is of essence here is that this was a conversation which

24     did not take place on the 14th of May, 1992, because this event did not

25     happen on that day."

Page 13859

 1             And then you explain that you think the conversation took place

 2     on the 12th of May, not the date of the attack you spoke about.  And then

 3     that continues on the next page, 14605:

 4             "I would just like --"

 5             This is the bottom of that page:

 6             "I would just like to stress that the date is very questionable

 7     here, and it just could not have happened on the 14th of May, because on

 8     the 14th of May we experienced the terrible attack on the entire western

 9     part of Ilidza, and we incurred losses.  Forty-eight people were wounded

10     and eight were killed."

11             That's on page 14606.

12             That was your testimony in the Krajisnik case; correct,

13     Mr. Prstojevic?

14        A.   That is correct, but it's the same situation, all the more so.

15     The Muslims who left from Gornji Kotorac didn't know whether it was the

16     12th or the 14th.  They're still alive.  On the 12th, we listened to an

17     intercept of that here, had the same thing but in fighting with Hadzici.

18     And I always arrived at the same time in the evening, when it was already

19     dark, so it doesn't really matter whether it was on the 12th or on the

20     14th.  On both days, there was fighting, and nobody knows any more which

21     date it is.  Some Muslims say it was the 12th, some Muslims say it was

22     the 14th.  But it's the same people, the MUP, or the police, or the TO,

23     that did that legally and legitimately.  They were forced to do that.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I tender those pages, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, they will be added.

Page 13860

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  They will be added to the Prosecution excerpts from

 3     the Krajisnik trial.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  And also the previous pages that were identified,

 5     Your Honour, as well as the audio.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  You referred to his statement in 65 ter 7273?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2524, Your Honours.

10             MR. TIEGER:  I see the time, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just have one clarification?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Which is what, Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Confusion has been created in

14     redirect about whether Mr. Prstojevic is saying whether he said that in

15     public or not.  I just wanted to warn about one answer by Mandic, which

16     explains that this is all about the media.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, that's a subject of your later

18     submission.

19             Well, Mr. Prstojevic, at last you are -- this concludes your

20     evidence at the Tribunal in this case.  Again, I would like to thank you

21     for your coming to The Hague to give it and staying a long time with us.

22     I have to apologise to you for inconvenience resulting from a couple of

23     interpositions of your evidence by the testimony of certain witnesses

24     whose testimony have been fixed.  Now you're free to go.

25             Thank you.

Page 13861

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Are there any matters to be raised before we

 4     adjourn?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I don't have any at my finger-tips, Your Honour.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to wish you to

 7     spend the break in a nice and fulfilling manner.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the parties to make the best use of the

 9     adjournment to prepare for the case.  And when we resume, I hope that the

10     case could proceed as smoothly as possible, without having this kind of

11     unnecessary adjournment again.

12             We will resume on 23rd of May.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.37 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

15                           May, 2011.