Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14701

 1                           Wednesday, 15 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning.  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

 9     Good morning to everyone.

10             Good morning, Ms. Hanson.

11             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

12                           WITNESS:  DOROTHEA HANSON [Resumed]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

14        Q.   In paragraph 12 of your report, you said:

15             [In English] "None of the SFRY federal, republic or provincial

16     documents examined to date use the term 'Crisis Staff' or

17     'War Presidency,' although the latter term is found in the 1984 Statute

18     of the Prijedor municipality."

19             [Interpretation] And in paragraph 13, you say:

20             [In English] "As noted above, the term, itself, has not been

21     found in any legislation.  The SDS used this undefined term and applied

22     it to a different kind of body, a party organ which claimed the authority

23     of a collective municipal presidency."

24             [Interpretation] You put that in your report; correct?

25        A.   Yes, that is in my report.

Page 14702

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Could we now see D368 in e-court.

 3        Q.   We're waiting for the English version, but you know the Serbian

 4     language and you can look at it already.  Is it a document from the

 5     Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated

 6     September 21, 1991?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On the 31st -- at the 31st session of the Presidency

 9     of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Then we see who was

10     present; the president, Izetbegovic, Plavsic, Kljuic, Boras and

11     Ejub Ganic, including also the president from -- member of the SFRY

12     Presidency, Bogicevic, Prime Minister Jure Pelivan, Cengic, Jerko Doko,

13     Alija Delimustafic, the general secretary and his deputy.

14             At this meeting, on page 2 in Serbian and English -- could we see

15     page 2.

16             Let us look at this:

17             "The Presidency established the Crisis Staff with the following

18     composition:  Members of the Presidency, Ejub Ganic; co-ordinator,

19     Dr. Biljana Plavsic; Franjo Boras; Minister of the Interior,

20     Delimustafic; Defence Minister Jerko Doko, and the commander of the

21     Territorial Defence.

22             "The base of the Crisis Staff will be at the premises of the

23     Presidency ..."

24             On what basis was this Crisis Staff established?

25        A.   I don't see a citation to legislation here.

Page 14703

 1        Q.   Did the SDS make this up and set this up, as you suggest in

 2     paragraph 13, that the SDS is using this undefined term, or is it the

 3     state presidency, the presidency of the republic, that established this?

 4        A.   As I note in footnote 5, there were other crisis staffs.  Had I

 5     understood -- this issue has come up before in earlier times that I'm

 6     testifying, and if I understood it was such a difficult issue for the

 7     other side, I would have expanded it.

 8             There were other crisis staffs.  I do not claim that the SDS

 9     invented the term.  What I do state is I have not found any legislation

10     using that term.  And because it is used from the level of the Presidency

11     to the level of a factory, I consider it a fairly undefined, flexible,

12     ad-hoc term.  So, yes, we see a crisis staff here in the BH Presidency.

13     We will see other crisis staffs formed elsewhere.  What I do not find is

14     a legislative definition of the term "crisis staff."

15             JUDGE KWON:  So your first -- the first sentence in para 12 is

16     not correct?

17             THE WITNESS:  I have not found -- oh, documents, yes.  I'm sorry,

18     the "documents" is not correct.  Yes, I see the problem there, and I

19     apologise for that.  It should be "legislation."  Indeed, that is wrong,

20     misleading, and I understand now the source of the misunderstanding here.

21     So I will readily agree we see documents about other crisis staffs.  I

22     don't find legislation on it, and my apologies for that error.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you know that in 1990 or 1991, OSCE formed a crisis staff to

25     monitor the situation in Yugoslavia?

Page 14704

 1        A.   I'm not familiar with it, no.

 2        Q.   Why did you put all the rest in your footnote and you included

 3     only the SDS in paragraph 13 and ascribe this invention to the SDS?

 4        A.   I do not ascribe it as an invention of the SDS.  My terms of

 5     reference were to examine the Bosnian Serb crisis staffs.  Therefore,

 6     that's the thrust of my writing.  However, I note that there are other

 7     crisis staffs.  I will readily concede that there were crisis staffs on

 8     the Bosnian side and on the Croat side.  It doesn't affect my conclusions

 9     about Bosnian Serb crisis staffs, which I see as formed on the orders of

10     the SDS.  I do not say the SDS invented the term.  I say that the SDS

11     ordered the formation of SDS party crisis staffs.

12        Q.   And your main task was to study the legislative origins and

13     legislative grounds of crisis staffs relative to which legal system?

14        A.   The legislative origins was part of my task.  My tasking was the

15     origins and operations of Bosnian Serb crisis staffs, not the legislative

16     origins of the term "crisis staff," per se.  Obviously, I would look at

17     the legal system which was in place at the time that the crisis staffs

18     were formed.

19        Q.   Is it right that in the letter of 16 December 2009, sent to you

20     by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you were primarily tasked with studying the

21     legislative basis for crisis staffs or not?  If it's listed as the first

22     task, isn't it then your primary job?

23        A.   No, I see that as a kind of chronological ordering of the topics

24     to be studied.  I don't think that it's more important than the role of

25     the crisis staffs in the Bosnian Serb state or the actions of the crisis

Page 14705

 1     staffs in the municipalities.  I see all those topics as having equal

 2     weight, and I think she arranged them in a logical progression.

 3        Q.   Ms. Hanson, you were supposed to find the legal basis in our

 4     legal system.  Is it possible you don't know that there are legal grounds

 5     in our laws to form various bodies, including the operation of municipal

 6     authorities in municipalities?

 7        A.   As I said, I would look for the legal basis in the legal system

 8     operating at the time the crisis staffs were formed.  I do note that

 9     there is certainly provision in the legislation for collective municipal

10     presidencies to operate in time of emergency.  I want to stress, I do not

11     see these named as crisis staffs.  I would be very glad to find some

12     legislation that uses the term "crisis staff," because it's so widely

13     used I'm surprised that it doesn't appear.  But I do see legislation for

14     collective municipal authorities and also for the councils for

15     all people's defence.  I note these in my report.  But I repeat, I find

16     no legislation for crisis staffs.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember a provision which provides for the

18     collective municipal authorities?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I note that in the first paragraph, "the

20     Presidency."  It's known as the Presidency, not as the War Presidency,

21     but it's in the -- I found it in the Bosnian Constitution.  I believe

22     it's also in the SFRY Constitution, but I thought this was enough of a

23     citation.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Did you note it in your footnotes?

25             THE WITNESS:  Footnote 1.  Paragraph 11 deals with this concept

Page 14706

 1     of a collective municipal presidency.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Please continue.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you also state this example of the Crisis Staff formed by the

 6     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina as something unusual and illegal, not

 7     based in law?

 8        A.   I didn't say that crisis staffs, in themselves, are illegal.  I

 9     say they are not legally defined.  That's the difference, not to say

10     crisis staffs, as a notion, are illegal.  But, no, I did not cite this

11     Presidency Crisis Staff in my report on Bosnian Serb municipal crisis

12     staffs.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Could we see 1D3563.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  If they are not legally defined, what, then, is

16     their status?

17             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry?

18             JUDGE BAIRD:  If they are not legally defined, what is their

19     status?

20             THE WITNESS:  I find that hard to define.  I think their

21     authority is what they claim.  That's my -- how I see it.  I think in the

22     example of this kind of crisis staff formed at the Presidency, it's meant

23     to be kind of a maybe a working group or a special-tasked group, the

24     centre for information, where information is supposed to go, the people

25     who need to deal with it most quickly and effectively.  But it's formed

Page 14707

 1     within the body here of the Presidency and has, I think, the authority of

 2     the Presidency.  It's all Presidency members who form the Crisis Staff.

 3             As I say, I have not found any legislation on it.  I have heard

 4     some discussion of it as just a term that would be used even in a

 5     factory.  If there is, you know, a flood in the municipality, the

 6     municipality might form a crisis staff of the most important actors in

 7     the municipality to solve problems.

 8             The Socialist system had a tradition of collective

 9     self-management.  A group get together of -- to act collectively, and in

10     this case, a small group in times of emergency, but I can't say what its

11     status was.  It seems to be whatever people wanted to be at the time.

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You see that Professor Koljevic was not a member of the

15     Crisis Staff, so that not all members of the Presidency of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina were in the Crisis Staff?

17        A.   No, I didn't mean all members were.  I said it's a smaller group.

18     But those who are, as far as I can see, are members of the Presidency or

19     else people who, ex officio, ought to be involved.  No, I do not see that

20     Koljevic is a member of the Presidency -- I'm sorry, of the Crisis Staff.

21     He is certainly a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina at this

22     time.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Is it the case that in municipal crisis staffs,

24     members were chosen ex officio to do jobs they normally did?

25        A.   In the crisis staffs that I looked at, the Bosnian Serb crisis

Page 14708

 1     staffs, they were first formed within the party, and they had party

 2     members who were either already performing municipal functions or were

 3     the unsuccessful SDS candidates for those functions, so they would not

 4     include the non-Serb municipal president, president of Executive Board,

 5     other positions.  So it was not a question of taking everybody in the

 6     municipal positions, but those Serbs -- SDS members who either fulfilled

 7     those positions or were chosen by the SDS as candidates for those

 8     positions.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll come back to that.

10             Can we see 1D3563.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can we agree that this is a document of the HDZ of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 18 September 1991, and it says they made

14     certain conclusions; namely, that the hitherto Security Council shall

15     from now on be called the Crisis Staff of the BH HDZ and shall consist of

16     the following people:  Stjepan Kljuic, Mate Boban, Branko Kvesic, who was

17     chief of the joint security, Mijo Tokic, Jerko Djoko, minister of the

18     Joint Defence, and other people, including Bozo Rajic, who was assistant

19     minister:

20             "Alongside the Executive Political Crisis Staff, the Staff shall

21     set up a specialist command organ which will be the expert military organ

22     with direct responsibility for individual operative areas.

23             "The Crisis Staff shall start working immediately and shall be in

24     charge of the entire system of the defence of the Croatian people in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina and ensure the acquisition of weapons.

Page 14709

 1             "The president of the Crisis Staff shall be Stjepan Kljuic, and

 2     the vice-president, Mate Boban."

 3             Have you reviewed this document?

 4        A.   I've seen it before.  I --

 5        Q.   You see here that before this Crisis Staff, they had a security

 6     council, whereas Serbs formed one only on the 27th of March, 1992.  They

 7     had a crisis staff several months before the Serbs.  They had an

 8     executive police organ.  They had a military organ, a specialised one.

 9     The president of the Crisis Staff was the president of the HDZ and member

10     of the Presidency, Stjepan Kljuic.  And you relegated this to a footnote?

11        A.   Yes, it's a footnote in my report on the Bosnian Serb municipal

12     crisis staffs -- or not this document, itself, is a footnote, but the

13     existence of other crisis staffs.  I don't cite this document, itself.

14        Q.   Was this conduct of this party in our political life of any

15     influence to the conduct of the Serbian side?

16        A.   Quite possibly.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Let's see what the Crisis Staff is supposed to do.  It must

20     convene meetings at the request of any member.

21             The second paragraph:

22             "In the event of armed conflicts in areas dominated by Croatian

23     population, crisis staffs shall assume all the functions of municipal

24     authorities, and it shall continue until the threat of war ceases.

25     Crisis staffs must also be established urgently along these same lines as

Page 14710

 1     the republican and regional crisis staffs:  The Travnik regional

 2     community, Herzegovina regional community, and the Posavina regional

 3     community.

 4             "The Republican Crisis Staff shall co-ordinate the Sarajevo

 5     regional community of the BH HDZ directly."

 6             And item 3, second paragraph, says:

 7             "It is recommended that the chairpersons of the municipal crisis

 8     staffs should be the presidents of the municipalities if they were

 9     appointed by the HDZ, and if not, the presidents of the municipal

10     executive councils or the chairmen of the municipal boards of the BH HDZ.

11             "It is the duty of the persons representing the BH HDZ in the

12     government bodies to continue performing their tasks conscientiously --"

13             JUDGE KWON:  We can all read the document.  What is your

14     question?

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   My question is:  Did you cite this document, even if only in a

17     footnote, as an example of early establishment of HDZ crisis staff,

18     including all the Croatian representatives in the BH authorities,

19     including the political and military command component, et cetera?

20        A.   As I already said, I did not cite this document in my report on

21     Bosnian Serb municipal crisis staffs.

22        Q.   Well, look at this, what Kljuic is doing; contact the SDA, ask

23     them to make their political position clear, but he's also duty-bound to

24     elaborate their own political position, even without the co-operation of

25     the SDA.

Page 14711

 1             And look at item 9:

 2             "The regional and municipal crisis staffs are tasked with

 3     urgently establishing a system of information and alerting in emergency

 4     conditions."

 5             And the last page:

 6             "Note:  This material and instructions are strictly confidential

 7     and may be made available only to the members of the Security Council of

 8     the BH HDZ, members of the Presidency from the HDZ, and presidents of

 9     municipal boards."

10             Would the council be completely informed --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Would the Trial

12     Chamber.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   -- be fully informed about the nature of the Serbian crisis

15     staffs if this is kept away from them?

16        A.   If I had been tasked to discuss all crisis staffs in Bosnia at

17     the beginning of the conflict, yes, I would have included this.  I do not

18     see that the existence of other crisis staffs changes my conclusions

19     about how the Bosnian Serb municipal crisis staffs were formed.  And my

20     tasking was the Bosnian Serb municipal crisis staffs.

21        Q.   So you mean to say that intensive preparations for the war on the

22     part of the Croat and Muslim sides in Bosnia and Herzegovina throughout

23     1991 did not have any influence over the fact that the Serb side

24     activated their crisis staffs not earlier than April 1992, and that

25     actions of the Serb side were unjustified, unmotivated, that it happened

Page 14712

 1     in a vacuum, so it was an act of diversion on the part of the Serb side;

 2     sabotage, in other words?

 3        A.   I do not claim that the actions of the Serb side were

 4     unjustified, unmotivated.  I do not even claim that events happened in a

 5     vacuum.  However, I am not called as an historical expert.  I was not

 6     asked to discuss the entire origins of the conflict in Bosnia.  So

 7     although I think the Trial Chamber should be, certainly, made aware of

 8     the events in 1991, I do not see that as my specific job here.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can this document please be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1329, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D3569.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Here, Remzo Tucakovic from Novi Grad explains -- please look at

16     item 2 --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I don't see a

19     translation for that document in e-court.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Is this not the document?

21             THE WITNESS:  It seems to be.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Remzo Tucakovic is writing to the Main Board of the SDA, and in

24     item 2, he says as follows:

25             "At the multi-party elections, after the formation of the SDA, I

Page 14713

 1     joined the party and immediately made myself available to organise the

 2     military wing of the party, the Patriotic League ..."

 3             And then further down in the same paragraph, he says:

 4             "When the Patriotic League was organised in the beginning of

 5     1991, I was elected to the Crisis Staff of Novi Grad municipality, and I

 6     worked on forming the first Patriotic League units."

 7             Can we go on to the next page in the English language:

 8             " ... which is to take over the defence of the Miro Popara local

 9     commune, Vojnicko Polje, and then arming them."

10             "After the formation of these Patriotic League units, I began to

11     train them ..."

12             "I did the same with all Patriotic League units ..."

13             And so on.

14             And then further on he says:

15             "When the war began, we were quite ready to offer armed

16     resistance and successfully resist the aggression.  I successfully

17     carried out all of the tasks," and so on, "assigned by the crisis staff

18     of Novi Grad municipality."

19             So he explains what he actually did and explains the whole

20     situation.  I don't want to read everything.

21             But have you considered this document at all, have you taken it

22     into account?  And the fact that as early as in 1991, there was a crisis

23     staff which was active, setting up a secret military organisation called

24     the Patriotic League, does it mean anything to you?

25        A.   It means that the term "crisis staff" was used by a number of

Page 14714

 1     different bodies.  As I said, I have seen other crisis staffs.  My

 2     tasking was Bosnian Serb municipal crisis staffs.  I don't see this one

 3     as a Bosnian Serb crisis staff.  It is municipal, but it seems to be an

 4     SDA organ, not the SDS.

 5        Q.   And when you spoke about the Crisis Staff -- the Serb

 6     Crisis Staff of Novi Grad, did you take into account the fact that the

 7     SDA Crisis Staff had already been in existence for a year before the Serb

 8     Crisis Staff was established, and that the Patriotic League unit was

 9     already in existence, that it was already trained and armed and so on?

10     Because this man describes precisely what he did to that effect.

11        A.   No, I did not, because my tasking was not to describe the -- all

12     events of 1991.

13        Q.   So although it was your task to present a full report in order to

14     enable the Trial Chamber and the laypeople to understand what was

15     happening, what the Serbs did, you left out all the context -- the entire

16     context in which the Serbs were acting.  You isolated the Serbs, and then

17     you said that in April 1992, they started setting up their crisis staffs.

18     Is this, indeed, a full report?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness has said on a number of

21     occasions what the terms of reference were for writing the report.

22     I think it's been asked and answered.  And it's not for Mr. Karadzic to

23     say that it's her task to present a full report in order to enable the

24     Trial Chamber and the laypeople to understand what was happening.  She's

25     already explained what she did.

Page 14715

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I agree, Ms. Sutherland.

 2             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Karadzic, again it's a comment in the guise

 4     of a question, and it's not helpful.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellencies, I merely

 6     paraphrased what is contained in the letter of the 6th of December,

 7     written by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  I will read it:

 8             [In English] "In relation to the admission into evidence of

 9     source material used by an expert in compiling his or her report, the

10     Chamber notes that the purpose of having an expert report is to assist

11     the Chamber by providing an understandable compilation and analysis of

12     technical materials which might not easily be comprehensible by a

13     layperson.  Expert reports, generally, should be complete and

14     understandable in themselves, such that there is no need to tender for

15     admission into evidence the sources used by an expert in compiling his or

16     her reports."

17             [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, we have a Prosecution person

18     testifying here, not an unbiased, independent expert, and that's my

19     objection.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you recall having received this letter, and do you remember

22     that Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff informed you about the position of the

23     Trial Chamber in this matter?

24        A.   Are you asking me if I received that letter?

25        Q.   Yes, I'm asking you.  This is a letter to you:  "Dear

Page 14716

 1     Ms. Hanson," dated the 16th of December, 2009.  And let me repeat,

 2     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff repeats several times that this is the position of the

 3     Trial Chamber, that your report should be comprehensible and

 4     comprehensive and full, and you act selectively and you single out the

 5     Serb side, you isolate it, and --

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Karadzic, you're commencing an argumentative

 7     line with the witness.  It's not helpful.  If you are going to make a

 8     reasoned comment later on that the witness's evidence is partial, that's

 9     entirely a matter for you.  But at the moment, it would be much wiser to

10     use the limited time available to ask specific and pointed questions.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Judge Morrison.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Are you aware of this letter?

15        A.   I cannot recall it at the moment, I'm afraid, but I see my -- the

16     terms of reference letter.  I'm sure I saw it, but I can't recall it.

17     I'm not aware of it right now.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see the letter?  Is it in e-court?

19     Otherwise, let's put it on the ELMO so that we can have a look.

20             THE ACCUSED:  Just a moment, please.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Can we zoom in a bit further so that we can read.

22             THE WITNESS:  I do --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Having heard the question from Mr. Karadzic,

24     could you comment on it?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do recall this document.  It was a request

Page 14717

 1     to provide a list of source documents to accompany my report, which

 2     eventually formed the basis of Annex A and Annex B.  It's after my report

 3     has been written.  It's to make a selection of the documents best shown

 4     to the Court, the most illustrative documents.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this letter please be admitted

 7     into evidence?

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Just a moment, Your Honour.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1330, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like this letter by

16     Ms. Hanson to everybody in the Prosecution to also be put on the ELMO.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   And then you notified the Prosecution that you found as follows:

19             [In English] "At the joint meeting of the Crisis Staff and the

20     Trnovo SDS Main Command, a decision was passed that the entire Serb

21     population of Trnovo from the territory of Sirokari, Dobro Polje And

22     Kalinovik be evacuated by 30th of May 1992 and that in a joint effort

23     with the Kalinovik forces, the entire Muslim and other population be

24     killed or expelled in an armed intervention to thus provide an ethnically

25     clean Serb territory along the entire line of Krupac-Foca."

Page 14718

 1             [Interpretation] Did you write this?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a moment.

 3             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this email relates to the report

 5     that Ms. Hanson wrote for the Krajisnik case, not the Karadzic case.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's immaterial.  This is a

 7     document, a letter, about the fact that a document was discovered, and

 8     Ms. Hanson recommends that this document be used by the Prosecution.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Is this your letter?

11        A.   Yes, and I believe you also have the following letter in which I

12     say why I don't want to use this document, because it turns out not to

13     have been what I -- not reliable.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we will move on to the next

15     letter now, but can this be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have a date?

17             Yes, that can be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1331, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Well, this is the letter that follows the one that we've just

21     seen, the one that you mentioned, and you say:

22             "Dear all.

23             [In English] "I should have been more skeptical about the Trnovo

24     Territorial Defence document I sent around last week; it was, of course,

25     too good to be true."

Page 14719

 1             [Interpretation] And then you go on to explain that this was, in

 2     fact, a document -- the previous document was a document produced by the

 3     Muslim Secret service.

 4             Why is it, then, too good to be true, Madam?

 5        A.   Because they interpreted this -- what they said about the

 6     ethnically-clean Serbian territory was not in the originally-sourced

 7     material.  I had found two summaries of -- typewritten summaries of the

 8     handwritten minutes of the Trnovo SDS and Crisis Staff.  The

 9     transcriptions of the minutes were accurate, but I found -- so I had

10     assumed they were reliable.  When I found that these summaries were, in

11     fact, too good to be true, I looked at them more closely and saw that

12     they were not the original documents, so I withdrew them from my report.

13     I went back and withdrew all typewritten transcriptions of the minutes,

14     and I used the original handwritten minutes myself.  So I do not use this

15     document in my report.  I rely only on the handwritten original minutes.

16             Usually, an analyst knows if a document is too good to be true,

17     it's probably not true.  The trial was ongoing.  We were looking for --

18     we were looking for exhibits.  This caught my eye.  Within a few days, I

19     caught my mistake.  I corrected it.

20        Q.   Madam, I am challenging your impartiality here, because you are

21     sad because a document that is harmful to the Serbs is not authentic, so

22     you're looking for the Serbs' wrongdoings.  You are -- you feel sorry

23     that this document is not authentic, because you wanted to catch the

24     Serbs red-handed planning the ethnic cleansing?

25        A.   This was -- I --

Page 14720

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like my question to be

 2     interpreted, because I asked:  "Is that right?"

 3             THE WITNESS:  In addition to writing an expert report, I

 4     generally assisted the Krajisnik -- brought to the attention of the trial

 5     team evidence.  The team was prosecuting a Bosnian Serb leader.  "Too

 6     good to be true" is just generally a phrase analysts use, like "a smoking

 7     gun," but -- no, not "a smoking gun," but something that's "too good to

 8     be true" is just the sort of thing we're looking for, but fits so nicely

 9     with what we need that we have to be more skeptical about it.  And I was,

10     in the first few days, skeptical about it.  And I said I didn't use it in

11     my report, it's not in my presentation, so I don't think my conclusions

12     are harmed.

13             Had I been assigned to a team prosecuting Croat perpetrators or

14     Bosnian Muslim perpetrators, I would doing my professional best to assist

15     the Prosecution in those endeavours, and I would be looking for evidence

16     that supported that.  I would also be looking for exculpatory

17     evidence and bringing it to the attention of the trial team.  I don't see

18     that finding a document which summarises the case nicely, and then

19     saying, Oops, it's not reliable, is an example of bias.

20        Q.   So you are assisting the Prosecution, and you are looking for

21     something that fits in, that dovetails in the case.  So what does it fit

22     in; the presumption of the Serbs' guilt?  Is that correct?

23        A.   The Serbs, you mean all Serbs?  I certainly don't --

24        Q.   Please, Madam.

25        A.   I'm trying to understand your question.

Page 14721

 1             I am looking for evidence that supports the Prosecution case.  I

 2     am also looking at all the evidence to see where the Prosecution case is

 3     incorrect, or needs to be corrected, or the Prosecution doesn't

 4     understand things.  This, as I said, dates from the time of the Krajisnik

 5     trial, when I was not kept at a distance.  For this trial, I have not

 6     been involved in any of the Prosecution theory, or team meetings, or

 7     looking for evidence beyond my report.  I want to stress that, because it

 8     was a different modus operandi back at the time of this e-mail.  For the

 9     purposes of this trial, my participation was limited to my report and the

10     evidence that I've been looking for for my report.

11        Q.   So you studied the indictment in the Krajisnik case, and then you

12     sought to underpin it, to support it.

13             Ms. Hanson, thank you very much for your answer.  And I would

14     like this document to be admitted.

15             JUDGE KWON:  You made a statement without asking a question.

16     That does not help the Trial Chamber, Mr. Karadzic.

17             Do you like to comment on this?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Well, a little while ago, you said that you looked for documents

20     that support the indictment; is that so?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But, again, there's no question, Your Honour.

22     "Is that so" on the end of it as I rose.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, there's a question.

24             Can you answer the question?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we have a problem with

Page 14722

 1     interpretation, because I started my question by saying -- by an

 2     inversion, "Did you," and that was the question.

 3             THE WITNESS:  At the time of the e-mail, I had written my report

 4     but was still pulling up documents I would like to use in my court

 5     presentation.  That is the context of that thing.

 6             In the Krajisnik case, once my testimony was over, I was fully

 7     participating in the Prosecution team.

 8             Again, I did not base my report on the indictment.  I was given a

 9     tasking very early on, Would you look at crisis staffs?  We don't know

10     what these bodies were.  Were they rogue organs, were they part of the

11     state?  What were they doing?  That was my general first tasking.  I

12     wrote a memo -- an internal memo on that, which the Prosecution team then

13     suggested I turn into an expert report.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit this second e-mail.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1332, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, did we deal with 1D3569?  Are you

17     tendering that?

18             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I would object.  It's the Chamber's practice not

20     to admit statements.

21             JUDGE KWON:  It's attached to a document.  Can we see the

22     document, 1D3569.  Can we see the first page of this document.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a report to the Main Board of

24     the Democratic Action Party.  It's not a statement; it's a report.  It's,

25     in fact, a complaint about the decision on promotion.

Page 14723

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So it's a form of a statement, Your Honour.

 2     It's a complaint about non-promotion.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to reply, Mr. Robinson, on this issue?

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, I don't believe that I have

 6     anything to add at this point.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit this document, not for the whole truth

 9     of the document, but the fact that in this letter, a certain individual

10     is referring to a crisis staff.  It will be admitted.  So to that extent,

11     we'll admit this document.  And give the number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1333, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can we please have 65 ter 512.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   65 ter 512, here we have the Croatian Democratic Union of the

17     Kotor Varos Municipality, the Municipal Board.  The date is the 16th of

18     March, 1992.  It's the decision on the establishment of the Crisis Staff,

19     with the following members.

20             Did you include this document in your report when you wrote about

21     Kotor Varos municipality?

22        A.   No, I did not include this in my report on Bosnian Serb municipal

23     crisis staffs.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can this be admitted?

Page 14724

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1334, Your Honours.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now let us go back to Bosanski Petrovac, which you describe as a

 5     municipality where there was persecution.

 6             Can I please have 65 ter 1074.

 7             These are minutes from a session of the Crisis Staff --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Before we move on, I wanted to check that while

 9     Ms. Hanson refers to Bosanski Petrovac and Kotor Varos, they are not

10     included in the indictment.  Is that correct, Ms. Sutherland?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct, they were --

12             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated].

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They were removed.  They were in

14     the indictment.  However, this is not relevant to the municipality.  It's

15     relevant to the report.  Ms. Hanson says the crisis staffs were

16     responsible of wrong-doing there.  We can't take her word for it.  We

17     have to see the documents on the basis of which she made that conclusion.

18             JUDGE KWON:  My understanding is Ms. Hanson wrote a report before

19     those parts were removed.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's correct, Your Honour.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it's updated, the report

22     has been updated.

23             JUDGE KWON:  In September.  I'm not limiting you.  I just asked

24     that for the information.

25             Please proceed.

Page 14725

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Let us look at this:

 3             "Dragan Gacesa ..."  that's the third paragraph:

 4             "Dragan Gacesa, chief of the Public Security Station, informed

 5     those present on the operation of disarmament in the territory of the

 6     municipality.  He said the leaders of the SDA will appeal to their

 7     population to surrender weapons in one location and that they will bring

 8     it to the Public Security Station."

 9             Can we see page 2.

10             Do you see that leads of the SDA, on the 13th of June, are

11     active, and they are involved in disarming their own supporters?

12        A.   I see that, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at the conclusions.

14             Item 6:

15             "The Public Security Station is hereby ordered to disarm

16     Zeljko Topalovic, Mica Zec from Bjelaj and Basta, Milan from Krnjeusa."

17             Since you know our language and those times and circumstances, do

18     you agree that these three persons were Serbs?

19        A.   These three people certainly appear to be Serbs, yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  D1335, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we now see 65 ter 1075.

25             A crisis staff session on the 1st of June, 1992.  We can read the

Page 14726

 1     entire, but we have no time.

 2             Could we see page 2, item 2.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   At this session, the Crisis Staff reviewed the situation in the

 5     territory of Petrovac municipality, specifically the issue of certain

 6     representatives of the SDA moving out:

 7             "The Crisis Staff concluded that the best solution for the moment

 8     is that the said representatives remain in Petrovac and that they are now

 9     what their people need the most."

10             Were you aware of this document of the Petrovac Crisis Staff?

11        A.   Yes, I reviewed the documents of the Petrovac Crisis Staff.

12        Q.   And on this basis, you concluded the Serbs were conducting ethnic

13     cleansing; right?

14        A.   Five days later, Petrovac was one of the municipalities that said

15     that they wanted Muslims to move out to a level at which Serb power can

16     be efficiently maintained in their territory.  As I noted yesterday,

17     Petrovac was one of the most Serbian of any of the municipalities, and

18     the Muslims were largely contained within the city.  I believe that most

19     Muslims in the municipality lived within the city of Bosanski Petrovac,

20     and perhaps -- my conclusion would be that perhaps it was not difficult

21     to maintain Serbian power over that territory, given the specific

22     situations in Petrovac.

23        Q.   Ms. Hanson, the document you are referring to was not signed,

24     whereas here you have an official document, according to protocol, signed

25     properly, and still you do not attach due attention to it?

Page 14727

 1        A.   I believe I attach the attention to it that it deserves.  I have

 2     seen another -- other documents which confirm the sub-region meeting and

 3     other documents from Sanski Most Crisis Staff which echo the ideas in the

 4     sub-region meeting that I do find that one credible.  As I say, I don't

 5     find them incompatible here.  The municipality wants Muslims to move out

 6     to a level at which Serbian power can be maintained efficiently.

 7     Petrovac was in such a situation already.

 8        Q.   That is not true, Madam, and we will prove it.  But why did you

 9     not cite this at least as the initial position of the authorities in

10     Petrovac?  Why didn't you mention that the authorities in Petrovac tried

11     to keep the leadership of the SDA so that they would be able to solve the

12     problems of their own community?

13        A.   As we see in the course of the summer, the main problem --

14        Q.   I am asking you about this initial position, the 1st of June.

15             JUDGE KWON:  If you ask a question, you do not intervene while

16     the witness answers your question.  It's unacceptable.

17             Please proceed, Ms. Hanson.

18             THE WITNESS:  In the course of the summer, we see that one of the

19     principal concerns of the Muslims of Petrovac is their safety in

20     remaining and the organised moving out of the Muslims.  Therefore, this

21     is not incompatible, to say that the leaders of the people should stay

22     now with the Muslims that there are in Petrovac.  Perhaps one possible

23     interpretation is they want them there to help keep order.  We saw that

24     they were helping hand over -- helping the Muslims hand over their

25     weapons.  The Serb leadership may have found it useful to have those

Page 14728

 1     leaders there to help manage the Muslims that were there.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The question was whether you reflected such

 3     observation in your report.

 4             THE WITNESS:  In my report, I can -- I put the documents in

 5     context of all the events over the -- over the course of the critical

 6     months.  I would weigh this against what we do know about the organised

 7     moving out of Muslims, what we do know about the population structure of

 8     Petrovac.  So, no, this specific document I don't have in my report, and

 9     I explained why.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Hanson.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             I tender this document.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   Ms. Hanson, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from

16     speculating and judging.  I asked you if you acknowledged this initial

17     effort to provide security to the Muslims and cited this document, and

18     you said, no, you did not even notice these initial efforts in the

19     beginning of June to give safety to the Muslims, and you made a judgement

20     that it is not important.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again, it's comment.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, and then that's the question asked and

23     answered.

24             We'll give the number for this.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'll just note, Your Honour, that it's a

Page 14729

 1     Crisis Staff meeting held on the 29th of May, 1992.  The document is

 2     dated the 1st of June.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1336, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             We will now go through this summer that you refer to and see the

 6     development of events.

 7             Can we now see 65 ter 7024.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   These are minutes of the 3rd June, and the session was on the 2nd

10     of June.  And item 1 says it was decided that all Muslims and Croats who

11     wish to evacuate from the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

12     should be enabled do so, and it's based on the conclusions of the

13     Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina that all Muslims and

14     Croats who so wish be enabled to evacuate from the territory, but only

15     under the condition that the Serbs outside the Serbian autonomous regions

16     also be allowed to evacuate to the territory of the Serbian Republic

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

18             And then the next page in English, second paragraph:

19             "From Central Bosnia, a large number of Serbs want to move to

20     Krajina, but the local authorities do not let them.  They keep them as

21     sort of hostages."

22             "The Crisis Staff simultaneously decided to put up resistance to

23     all attempts to forcibly move the population and to stop this by all

24     legal means."

25             Do you know that in this case, the Crisis Staff limits itself to

Page 14730

 1     voluntary movement of population and sets the condition that it must be

 2     reciprocal?

 3        A.   I take that to be the ARK Crisis Staff, not the Petrovac

 4     Crisis Staff.

 5        Q.   Madam, the Petrovac Crisis Staff received this.  Bogdan Latinovic

 6     read out the conclusion of the Crisis Staff of Krajina, and this

 7     Crisis Staff, on that basis, makes its own decision and its own option;

 8     to enable voluntary evacuation on the condition that the Serbs are

 9     allowed to do the same.  And then it says the Crisis Staff will

10     resolutely oppose forcible movement of population or anyone moving out

11     under pressure.  Did you take this document into account?  --

12        A.   I reviewed this document.  I did not include it in my report.

13             JUDGE KWON:  First resolve this, whether this is an ARK crisis

14     or --

15             THE WITNESS:  It's ambiguous.  It's ambiguous.  They are --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see the first page in English.

17             THE WITNESS:  They are discussing the conclusions of the ARK

18     Crisis Staff under item 1.

19             JUDGE KWON:  But it says -- the heading says "Municipal Assembly,

20     Petrovac Crisis Staff."

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, but on the agenda -- item 1 on the agenda is

22     discussing the conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff.  So then under agenda

23     item 1, they are proposing to adopt in full the conclusions of the ARK

24     Crisis Staff, but it's not clear if -- whose conclusions they are.  If we

25     go on to the English on the next page, it seems to be the conclusions

Page 14731

 1     adopted in full I would read to be the ARK Crisis Staff conclusions.  In

 2     the paragraph -- in reaching this kind of decision, it's clearly

 3     referring to the ARK Crisis Staff.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If you read AD-1, a certain individual read

 5     the conclusion of the Banja Luka Crisis Staff, and Petrovac Municipality

 6     Crisis Staff gave a proposition to be adopted in full as follows.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Right.  So I'm just saying the last two paragraphs

 8     are ambiguous as to just which crisis staff, but certainly it states

 9     here -- if they are adopting it in full, they are adopting, yes, the --

10     the conclusion to oppose any kind of forceful evacuation of the

11     population.  So perhaps it's not a difference.  It was just -- I have --

12     I've reviewed all the minutes of the Petrovac Crisis Staff, so I've read

13     this at some point.  But just to be presented with it right now, it took

14     a moment to sort out which crisis staff.  I apologise if it seems a waste

15     of time, but I had to sort it out.

16             They seem to be adopting the ARK position, but at the same time

17     we know what happened in the ARK and what was going on in the ARK at this

18     time.  So this document has to be weighed against the actual events.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was just going to say, if I could

21     assist Ms. Hanson and the Court, the ARK conclusion is in an exhibit, and

22     we could actually put them side by side.  There seems to me -- it appears

23     there is text -- the second-to-last paragraph on the document that we see

24     on the screen doesn't appear to be in the ARK Crisis Staff conclusion,

25     but I don't know if you want to bring up this document.

Page 14732

 1             JUDGE KWON:  It may be the subject of your redirect, but let's

 2     proceed.

 3             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, you may continue.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Could you then look at the last page:

 6             "The Crisis Staff invites the leadership of the SDA and HDZ to

 7     actively get involved in enabling the movement of population."

 8             Can we see the last page -- the second page in both versions with

 9     conclusions, the passage before the conclusions.

10             Item 5 says:

11             "The Crisis Staff decides that a board be appointed to implement

12     these conclusions, conclusions about the evacuation of Muslims from the

13     territory of the municipality."

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot follow at this speed.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could you slow down and repeat.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page in English.

17             Yes, that's it now.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Item 5, second paragraph:

20             "The Crisis Staff has decided to form a board for the

21     implementation of these conclusions; that is to say, the evacuation of

22     Muslims from the territory of Petrovac municipality."

23             The following persons were appointed to the board:  Safet Hidic,

24     Rifet Bahtijaragic, Dragan Ivanic, Slavko Banjac.  Do you agree that the

25     first two names are Muslims and the second two names are Serbs?

Page 14733

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit D1337.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1091, please.  1091.  Am I

 6     mispronouncing things so that interpreters do not understand me?

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This is also minutes from the 14th of July.  I don't want to read

 9     everything.  Let's look at AD-1:

10             "Introductory statement.  To take position at the level of the

11     Autonomous Region of Krajina as to how to treat the population which is

12     not loyal to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The loyal

13     part of the population should be involved in defence preparations, such

14     as building fortifications, construction and repair of roads for

15     logistical support and so on, in view of the fact that currently there

16     were not enough weapons to arm these people, too, and send them to the

17     front."

18             I invite the interpreters to use what is on the screen.

19             And then the next paragraph -- the next page in English:

20             "Furthermore, D. Gacesa informed those present that some business

21     premises owned by citizens of Muslim nationality had been damaged the

22     previous night by bomb or mine explosions, and a vigorous investigation

23     was underway to find the perpetrators."

24             Were you aware the authorities in Petrovac were not destroying

25     Muslim businesses, but instead were looking for the perpetrators?

Page 14734

 1        A.   In this document, they are not destroying Muslim businesses.  I

 2     know in other ones, they are closing Muslim businesses.  The very fact is

 3     they are making that distinction between Muslim businesses and Serb-owned

 4     businesses.

 5        Q.   We'll come to that and we'll see why, although it was your duty

 6     to present that here.

 7             Let us have page 2, please, in Serbian.  The English page is

 8     good.

 9             Then it's 3.  This is just the certification?  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   "Obrad Vrzina stressed the demand that all Muslims working in

12     administration of the Municipal Assembly be sent on unpaid leave to

13     diffuse the dissatisfaction among citizens and TO members over the fact

14     that Muslims were receiving salaries, while a large number of citizens

15     and TO members had no income whatsoever as a result of war operations."

16             And further down, Bogdan Latinovic says in the last sentence:

17             "But also there are some Muslim officials who are still working

18     very hard in responsible jobs, and their abrupt removal from their jobs

19     would have adverse consequences on the functioning of administrative

20     organs."

21             And in the conclusions, it says:

22             "The work of --"

23             THE INTERPRETER:  We don't have a reference.  This is going too

24     fast.  It doesn't lend itself to simultaneous interpretation.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Start from the conclusion.  The interpreters simply

Page 14735

 1     cannot catch up with your speed.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters,

 3     but I'm under time pressure.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Here in the conclusions, the last paragraph -- that is, the first

 6     paragraph, last sentence, they are wondering how to treat the Muslims,

 7     Muslim citizens, who did not declare their loyalty or who made their

 8     hostility clear.  And Bogdan Latinovic says that Muslim officials and

 9     employees who are working well in the municipality should not be removed.

10             Do you agree, Ms. Hanson --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

12             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, could Mr. Karadzic refrain from

14     stating what's not in the document in his comments and questions.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?  Could

16     you reformulate your question?

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My question, Ms. Hanson:  Do you see that here, Muslim officials,

19     in the middle of June, two and a half months into the war, are still

20     working, receiving their salaries, and under the circumstances of civil

21     war, there are many people who are unhappy about it, and the municipality

22     is wondering what to do, and an experienced, politically mature man, such

23     as Latinovic, is opposed to the idea of sending them on leave?

24        A.   I have no reference here to know about his political maturity,

25     but I see the conclusion is that they refer to the ARK because they find

Page 14736

 1     it, apparently, a difficult question, but they will prepare a plan for

 2     excluding employees of Muslim nationality and prepare replacements of

 3     Serbian nationality.  That's what the document says.  They're discussing

 4     it.  The very fact that they're discussing whether some of their citizens

 5     should be allowed to continue in employment tells you what it meant; to

 6     create a Serb power in a mixed municipality, even one that I say is one

 7     of the most Serbian municipalities.  The few Muslims that are there are

 8     still working.  Some people don't like that.  They're going to prepare a

 9     plan to replace them with Serbs, but there are referring it to the ARK

10     because the ARK has made statements that Muslims should not be in any

11     leading positions.  The ARK has made it clear that Muslims should not be

12     employed in significant places.

13             Latinovic's political experience and maturity, as you say, may be

14     in avoiding making a decision and referring it up to a higher level.

15        Q.   Madam, do you accept that they are doing that under pressure, the

16     pressure of dissatisfied masses who are not getting paid and who have to

17     go to the front-line?

18        A.   I see that that is -- one member is saying that that's the

19     reason.  I also know that the ARK was taking a similar position from

20     above.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are now dealing with Petrovac.

22             I tender this document.

23             THE WITNESS:  Petrovac was part of ARK.

24             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.  Exhibit D1338.

25             And we'll have a break for half an hour.

Page 14737

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before you continue, Mr. Karadzic, Judge Baird has a

 4     question for the witness.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. Hanson, before the break, in answering one of

 6     the questions put to you by Dr. Karadzic, you stated, inter alia, that

 7     had you been assigned to a team prosecuting Croat perpetrators or Bosnian

 8     Muslim perpetrators, you would have done your professional best to assist

 9     the Prosecution in those endeavours.  And this is my focus:  And you

10     would also be looking for exculpatory evidence and bringing it to the

11     attention of the trial team.  Do you recollect this?

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes, all right.

14             And, indeed, I think on the first day you testified, you had

15     stated that in respect of your present report, when you encountered

16     exculpatory evidence, you passed it on to the lawyers.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

18             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, what I would like you to assist us with,

19     Ms. Hanson, is:  What was the impediment, if there was one, to your

20     including that exculpatory evidence in your report?

21             THE WITNESS:  Because I don't see the -- in the issue of some

22     Muslims wanting to leave, I don't see that as exculpatory to the forced

23     removal of those who didn't want to leave or to the creation of

24     conditions such that people felt they had no choice but to leave their

25     homes.  I would say exculpatory would be rather stating, We see that some

Page 14738

 1     of our citizens want to leave.  That's not the kind of state we want.

 2     Let's do everything we can to make them stay.

 3             JUDGE BAIRD:  Did you encounter any exculpatory material at all

 4     in preparing this report?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I encountered much exculpatory material, beyond

 6     even the scope of crisis staffs, not a lot, but I'm saying beyond the

 7     question of what crisis staffs did or didn't.  That's part of my job as

 8     review of other documents.  In terms of the crisis staffs, itself, yes, I

 9     did encounter a few.  I passed them on.  But the terms of my -- the

10     understanding -- my understanding of exculpatory material was that

11     evidence that would show that some other -- somebody else or some other

12     organs committed crimes -- the crimes ascribed, not that the other side

13     also committed crimes, for example.  And my report -- in my report, I do

14     not try to pass judgement.  I simply state what I saw going on.  So a

15     municipality in which a crisis staff or war presidency is acting like a

16     regular municipal authority and caring for its people would be what one

17     would expect a municipal authority to do.  It's when I see them doing

18     something that fits into the overall pattern of the crimes in Bosnia in

19     1992, then I would fit it into those crimes.

20             Do you understand?  Am I being clear?

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  I thank you, I thank you.

22             Mr. Karadzic.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Hanson, you referred to the creation of

24     conditions such that people felt that they had no choice but to leave

25     their homes.  Was that also part of your mandate as an expert?

Page 14739

 1             THE WITNESS:  As an expert, I'm expected to know the overall

 2     events.  I was not tasked to present them in the report, but I was

 3     certainly expected to know what was going on in Bosnia at the time.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Ms. Hanson, what purpose would it serve, that you knew something,

 8     if unless you include it in your report?

 9        A.   I can't include everything I know in one report, but it

10     informs -- my reading of documents, it informs my interpretation of

11     documents.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can we look at 65 ter 1163.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You've just said that the Serbs -- or, rather, the authorities in

16     Bosanski Petrovac treated buildings owned by Muslims differently, and I'm

17     here referring to various businesses, cafes, and shops and so on.  This

18     is the -- probably the document that you're referring to.  It says here

19     that:

20             "Muslim owners or keepers of catering establishments and

21     businesses shall close their premises for their own security and that of

22     their property.

23             "The closing of premises is of a temporary nature ."

24             The date is the 18th of June, 1992.

25             Is this the document that you had in mind, or perhaps you had

Page 14740

 1     some other document in mind?

 2        A.   This is the one I had in mind.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1339, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at 1093.

 7             Your Excellencies, while we're waiting for this document to come

 8     up, I would kindly ask you to give me Friday, because I would have less

 9     than three minutes to deal with each paragraph in the report and I could

10     not even begin to address the documents.  I have 420 minutes for 147

11     paragraphs, and I kindly ask you to give me some additional time on

12     Friday.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You were allotted seven hours to deal with this

14     witness for your cross-examination, and you spent hours and hours to deal

15     with matters that took place in Petrovac and Kotor Varos.  And you have

16     an hour and a half for this session.  How much more would you need at

17     all?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, as regards

19     Kotor Varos, Krupa, Bosanski Petrovac, they're not contained in the

20     indictment, but they are presented here as the striking examples of the

21     worst actions on the part of the Serb authorities.  And we have documents

22     to support that, and I need all the sessions today and all the sessions

23     on Friday in order to be able to examine this witness on all the

24     particulars.  We're talking about 147 paragraphs in the report and

25     thousands and thousands of documents that are referred to in the

Page 14741

 1     document, itself, and in the footnotes.

 2             If we abide by what you ordered, that reports should be complete

 3     and understandable, they cannot be complete and understandable unless we

 4     have an opportunity to cross-examine this witness thoroughly.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I present another argument?

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I present another argument

 9     before you rule on this issue?  May I present another argument before you

10     rule?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm convinced that your knowledge

13     and your conclusions about the municipality of Kotor Varos would be quite

14     different had I not cross-examined this witness about this topic.  And

15     all the topics where we will not have proper cross-examination should not

16     be a basis for any of your findings, because Kotor Varos was presented

17     here as the case where there were the worst violations, and we have now

18     seen that this is not the case.  These are the pillars on which the

19     indictment rests.  Donia, Treanor, Hanson, and some other employees of

20     the Prosecution are presented here as impartial experts, and they are the

21     pillars of the indictment.  How can we learn what really was going on

22     unless we have an opportunity to cross-examine them thoroughly?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  You'll have until the end of today's

24     session.  That will be about eight hours and a half.  Try your best to

25     conclude your cross-examination.

Page 14742

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Could you please look at this document.  This is a session, dated

 3     on the 16th of June, 1992, again in Petrovac.  And let me just give you a

 4     summary.

 5             The president reported the situation on the front-line; one

 6     person killed, nineteen wounded.  And it says here they expect from the

 7     Crisis Staff to present a clear position towards the Muslims, and the

 8     military post wants that measures be taken against them that would make

 9     it impossible for them to operate and to organise in the rear of our

10     forces.  And mention is made of about some 40 groups of armed extremists.

11     Thirteen are beyond the reach of police organs, they have fled, and the

12     demand is made to isolate them in order to prevent them from becoming a

13     risk to our forces in the rear.  Now, this is a summary, again.

14             Did you take into account these developments as a factor, where

15     some 40 Muslim extremists are located in the rear of our forces and are

16     setting up a military organisation?

17        A.   I was aware that there was some armed resistance in some

18     municipalities.  Certainly, I read this, I was aware of it.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And then further down -- - can we have the next page

20     in English? - a decision is made that all persons who possessed weapons

21     illegally or have been registered as Muslim extremists, which renders

22     them a potential danger, shall be detained.  And then it goes on to say

23     where the detention facility is going to be located.  The explanation:

24             "The steps envisaged by this decision are being implemented

25     against all persons that have armed themselves illegally and organised

Page 14743

 1     paramilitary formations with the goal of organising an armed rebellion

 2     against the legal authorities because of the general safety of property

 3     and citizens.

 4             "An additional reason for such action lies in the fact that

 5     tensions and anxiety have grown among citizens in the territory of the

 6     municipality.  And due to the animosity toward the persons cited in

 7     paragraph 1 of this decision, endangering their personal safety, which

 8     the Crisis Staff has considered in making this decision."

 9             So in the depth of the Serb territory, there are groups that pose

10     a danger because they're opening fire on the troops from behind, and the

11     Crisis Staff issues a decision to detain such persons?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again, sorry to interrupt, but can

14     Mr. Karadzic please cite the evidence as it is.  The document states "a

15     group of about 40 persons," not "40 groups," which is what he said

16     originally and then proceeded to say, again, "groups."

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the problem is in the

19     translation.  But I am really rushing, so I would like you to read the

20     document.  Ms. Hanson reads Serbian, and everybody else can read the

21     translation.  That's why I'm rushing through those documents, because you

22     can all read the documents.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So do you agree with me, Ms. Hanson, that there was not peace,

25     law and order, in the depth of the Serb territory at this time, but

Page 14744

 1     people were being killed, there were attacks, and so on?

 2        A.   Yes, this document indicates that there were still some shooting,

 3     some fighting.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can this be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1340, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have 65 ter 1099.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I don't want to waste time reading this document.  Do you agree

11     with me, Ms. Hanson, that this document is a document in which the

12     Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Bosanski Petrovac is asking for

13     additional police, because it says in the second paragraph:

14             "During police curfews, a still unidentified group has been

15     shooting, demolishing and looting taverns, shops and kiosks owned by

16     citizens of Muslim nationality, but since recently also (those owned by

17     citizens) of Serbian nationality, keeping the entire civilian population

18     in anxiety and fear"?

19             And the third and the fourth paragraph of this document says

20     that:

21             "The members of our police have not managed to put a stop to this

22     practice.  We assume this is because of the lack of training or because

23     they don't want to -- for somebody to bear a grudge against them, and we

24     would like you to send a unit of the special police in order to prevent

25     the decreasing morale among part of our population ..."

Page 14745

 1             And so on and so forth.

 2             Are you aware that the authorities are asking for additional

 3     special forces to come in to maintain peace and to keep the Muslim

 4     community safe?

 5        A.   Well, the way they phrase it, not only Muslims, but also recently

 6     Serbs are asking for protection.  But, yes, they're asking for additional

 7     police forces to keep -- to introduce law and order.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1341, Your Honours.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have 65 ter 1107.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This is a session of the 7th of July, 1992.  I would like us to

15     look at the first paragraph in item 1:

16             "Obrad Vrzina reported on the security situation in the territory

17     of the municipality and assessed it is delicate, with a popular feeling

18     of discontent, especially directed towards the Muslims after the recent

19     events on the front-line, and stressed that the best and a sure solution

20     for the protection of the Muslims would be to move the population.  He

21     emphasised that the territory of the municipalities was large, did not

22     easily lend itself to safe-guarding and control, and that the forces were

23     not adequate to the needs."

24             Do you remember that I presented this argument, that I did say

25     that this was a large municipality and that it could not be put under

Page 14746

 1     control?

 2        A.   You said that in the context of a different document, and I said

 3     that the answer in that document was not that the municipality was large.

 4     Here, I see that.  However, as I said before, I recall that most of the

 5     Muslims in the municipality were, in fact, found in the town of Petrovac,

 6     and their -- the solution they're looking for seems to be to move the

 7     Muslims, rather than ensure their -- take extraordinary efforts to ensure

 8     their safety here.

 9        Q.   Madam, do you see here that he says that the municipality is

10     large?  And you want to say that there are no Muslims living in the

11     village of Bjelaj, in this municipality.  Are you trying to tell me that

12     there were no Muslim villages in the municipality?

13        A.   I did not mention the village of Bjelaj because I've never heard

14     of it.  I'm not saying there were no Muslim villages.  I said the

15     majority were found in the town.  But there is no place in Bosnia that is

16     completely one nationality or another, so I'm certain that there were

17     some Muslims beyond the town of Petrovac.

18        Q.   And do you see that a statement is made here that in addition to

19     the fact that it is difficult to put this municipality under the control,

20     because it's so large, that there were no adequate forces to meet the

21     needs?  And we could see that -- from the previous document that

22     additional police forces were sought.  Were the authorities here able to

23     do more, apart from proposing that the population at risk be evacuated,

24     be moved out, because the authorities could not protect them due to lack

25     of appropriate forces?

Page 14747

 1        A.   I think that there could have been other measures, but it's hard

 2     to speculate at this point with the information given here.  But the

 3     members of the -- the commanders of the police, of the local units, were

 4     part of the Crisis Staff or, in this case -- yes, still the Crisis Staff.

 5     There were armed -- they were in contact with the higher units of the

 6     army and so on.  I don't know -- it's hard to tell what else could have

 7     been done.  They certainly decry the lack of law and order.  I simply

 8     note that their solution to the problem is to move out the population.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can this be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1342, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have 65 ter 1114.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is -- this was a session -- or, rather, a decision was made

16     on the 31st of July, 1992, and it says here that the Muslims can move

17     out, on a voluntary basis, provided they sign a contract on the exchange

18     of immovable property and if they sign a statement ceding their property

19     to the state.  And then further on, it says that:

20             "Apartments used by Muslims who are holders of occupancy or

21     tenancy rights may only be handed over to the enterprises who own the

22     apartments and the enterprises shall give them for temporary use to their

23     employees, giving priority to --"

24             JUDGE KWON:  Slow down, slow down.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14748

 1        Q.   So they can only sell their movable property or give it away by

 2     signing a statement to the Municipal Assembly:

 3             "Persons who receive movable property are obliged to keep it and

 4     cannot transfer it to themselves until the end of the war."

 5             And:

 6             "All contracts on the exchange of property shall be revised."

 7             Did you take into account this document?

 8        A.   Yes, and I believe I cite it.

 9        Q.   And do you know that I revoked and invalidated -- I cancelled all

10     the decisions whereby property was gifted to either the state or a

11     municipality?

12        A.   No, I didn't know that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1343, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have 65 ter 1115.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The date is the 3rd of August, 1992.  And on item 2 of the

20     agenda, we can see we have the consideration of the security situation,

21     the issue of Muslims.  And then item 2, the second paragraph, it says:

22             "In the course of the session, a group of citizens of Muslim

23     nationality appeared, and they stated they want to attend the session of

24     this commission and to ask some questions.  The president and other

25     members of the commission allowed them to put forward their requests or

Page 14749

 1     questions.

 2             "Mase Druzic, Husein Odobasic, Remzo Terzic and Ismet Druzic and

 3     Gutlic presented their view of the situation and asked the following

 4     questions:

 5             "1.  Will the workers of Muslim nationality work in companies?"

 6             And the second question:

 7             "Will the Muslims in Petrovac have their safety guaranteed?"

 8             You've read this document.  The document is from early August.

 9     You cited it as if there had been no development of events; right?

10        A.   I cite it, yes, in my report.

11        Q.   Did you take into account the development of events?  It's five

12     months into the war.

13        A.   I do not discuss the events of the war in any detail in my

14     report, no, but I was aware of them as I wrote the report.

15        Q.   In paragraph 100, you say:

16             [In English] "When a delegation of Muslims enquired of the War

17     Commission in Bosanski Petrovac, whether the Muslims would have a

18     guarantee of safety in the municipality, the War Commission responded by

19     forming a commission for the departure of Muslims."

20             [Interpretation] And you treat that as ethnic cleansing, as the

21     intention of Serbian authorities to cleanse Muslims from Petrovac;

22     correct?

23        A.   I don't use the word "ethnic cleansing," or even "cleansing," but

24     I say that their solution to Muslims wanting safety was to move the

25     Muslims out.  And that that was one of the things that crisis staffs did,

Page 14750

 1     or war commissions in this case, was organise the departure of Muslims,

 2     and this is an example of it.

 3        Q.   Madam, if the Serbian authorities had a plan and intention to

 4     cleanse or evacuate or expel Muslims from Petrovac, why, then, in the

 5     fifth month of the war, was this decision taken that they may evacuate

 6     for their own safety?  Why were they not driven out immediately?

 7        A.   As I said repeatedly, Petrovac was a Bosnian Serb majority, and,

 8     in general, the Serb authorities may have felt they could control the

 9     power sufficiently.  The Muslims were concentrated in one spot.  As we

10     saw early on, the Muslims were co-operating.  The SDA was apparently

11     helping carry out the orders for disarming the Muslim population.  They

12     seemed willing to co-operate.  Petrovac was one of the groups that said

13     that Muslims should be removed to a level at which Serbian power can be

14     held efficiently.

15        Q.   You're talking now about Sanski Most.  We'll come to that if we

16     have time.  We're now talking about Petrovac.

17             Can this document be admitted?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Hanson.

19             THE WITNESS:  Petrovac was one of the municipalities.  That

20     document was written in Sanski Most.  But representatives of seven

21     municipalities, including Bosanski Petrovac, are named in that document,

22     so I include it as one of the relevant municipalities.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             We'll admit this.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1344, Your Honours.

Page 14751

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you see, Ms. Hanson, that the reason for that is the inability

 3     to establish control and to provide safety and security?

 4        A.   I see that given here as the reason, yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             65 ter 1138, please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   The session of 9 September 1992.  Paragraph 3:

 9             "Pursuant to a decision by the War Presidency and the

10     Resettlement Commission, all citizens of Petrovac wishing to move out of

11     Petrovac municipality will be provided with transport and escort to

12     places to which they wish to move, every day starting with 9 September."

13             Did you review this document?

14        A.   I believe so.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that this commission was made up of

16     two Serbs and two Muslims?

17        A.   Well, there was that commission that we saw in an earlier

18     document you provided, but the Commission for the Resettlement, I

19     believe, is the one founded in August, in response to the document we had

20     just seen from the 3rd of August.  I believe that's when they formed the

21     commission with that name.  So it's not clear.  It would take a long time

22     to go through all the documents to see just their names, whether they're

23     referring to the earlier one we saw that was half Muslim and half Serb or

24     the one from August.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be received?

Page 14752

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  D1345, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1162, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a decision invoking Article 3 on the decision invoking

 6     the War Presidency.  At the level of the municipality, a service will be

 7     formed to take charge of exchanges of flats owned by Muslims and refugees

 8     from other areas:

 9             "The following shall be appointed to the commission:  An officer

10     for housing matters of the Petrovac municipality administration organ;

11     one worker, member of the self-managing community of interest for

12     housing; and one member as a professional person/civilian representative.

13     The commission will draw up a contract which the interested parties will

14     sign and certify."

15             Do you see that this commission is being established as a service

16     to those who want to exchange property?

17        A.   Well, we've seen property exchanged.  The decision already from

18     the summer said that people who wanted to leave would either exchange

19     their property or donate it, so I thought the Commission for Exchanges

20     was already formed.  But, yes, here we see them -- the War Presidency

21     setting up a commission for the exchange of property.

22        Q.   This says "service."  Municipal services are created to cater to

23     those who need a notary public or something like that.  The authorities

24     are establishing this service, and this is 8 October -- 28 October.

25     Muslims still lived there, and they want to move out, to move somewhere

Page 14753

 1     else.  And in order for them not to lose their property, a service is

 2     created for them, and for Serbs who had fled from somewhere else, to help

 3     them exchange property.  Right?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The question.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Does Mr. Karadzic have a question?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a question.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is it right that the municipality is creating a service; not a

10     commission to drive out anyone, but a service to help those who want to

11     swap property?

12        A.   It says both "service" and "commission."  The first sentence says

13     "sluzbe," the second session "commission."  But, yes, that's what it

14     says.  It's being formed for the exchange of property.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can this be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1346, Your Honours.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you agree that this concerns Muslim owners and refugees from

21     other areas?  Do you agree that these refugees from other areas refers to

22     Serbs who came to Petrovac, or could it be any refugee?

23        A.   They simply say "refugee."

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1164.  That's the

25     65 ter number.

Page 14754

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is also 28 October, end October, and the Presidency takes a

 3     decision:

 4             "Muslim citizens must enjoy all rights ..."

 5             Et cetera, et cetera.  And the Public Security Station in

 6     Petrovac is instructed to increase patrols in areas where large numbers

 7     of Muslims live, and especially in the Bjelaj Local Commune, and also

 8     that rigorous measures be proposed against any persons who threaten the

 9     Muslims' rights to peace, life and work, and that they be arrested and

10     handed over to judicial authorities.

11             Do you agree that these Muslims are living outside Petrovac,

12     especially concentrated in Bjelaj, and patrols are ordered to pay more

13     attention to these Muslim-inhabited areas?

14        A.   Yes, that's what the document would suggest.

15        Q.   Did you include this document in your report?

16        A.   No, I did not.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             May this be received?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1347, Your Honours.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   In your paragraph 97, you said:

23             [In English] "The status, and exodus of non-Serbs in the Serb

24     municipalities was a constant theme of the Crisis Staff work.  The

25     Kljuc Crisis Staff stated that it had resolved issues about the organised

Page 14755

 1     emigration of Muslims as well as the very question of the status of

 2     Muslims."

 3             [Interpretation] Then you say that the War Presidency in Celinac

 4     gave a special status to Muslims.

 5             Do you know that in Basta, a village in Celinac municipality,

 6     five Muslims were killed, and I ordered an investigation?  There were

 7     these measures in Celinac that Muslims should not walk around during the

 8     night so as not to be killed?

 9        A.   I do not know about the killings in Basta, nor your order for an

10     investigation.  I don't see anything in that Celinac order that it was

11     for their own safety.  It was simply giving them a special status.

12        Q.   We'll come to that if we have enough time.

13             Paragraph 98.

14             [In English] "In Kljuc, for example, the War Presidency which

15     claimed to have resolved personal issues in the courts, municipal

16     administration, public and state enterprises, set out the criteria for

17     loyalty by which people in mixed marriages could be employed in state or

18     public companies."

19             [Interpretation] Is that right?

20        A.   Yes, that's what my report says.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             65 ter 11263 now, please.  11263, for us to see what they were

23     doing in Kljuc municipality.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This says that on 21st July, the second half of July,

Page 14756

 1     Asim Egrlic, until now the president of the Executive Board of Kljuc

 2     municipality, is released from his duties of president effective from the

 3     1st of June, 1992.  And this was a decision taken on the 21st July only.

 4             It was not in the form of a question, but I want the interpreters

 5     to add my question always.

 6             Is that the example which you used to show how the authorities in

 7     Kljuc resolved the issue of employment in various organs?

 8        A.   This is one such example, but it's not the one I cite to that

 9     sentence.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll come to those you

11     used as well.

12             May this document be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1348, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 65 ter 11264.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is this another example that Omer Filipovic, until that moment

18     vice-president of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc, is also discharged

19     from his duties?

20        A.   Yes, I see this as another such example.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we admit this?  And we will remember the names E grlic and

23     Filipovic.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1349, Your Honours.

Page 14757

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 822, please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So this material is handwritten at the Public Security Station,

 4     Kljuc.  It says, "just before the ethnic cleansing of Kljuc," et cetera,

 5     et cetera.  Now I ask for the next page.

 6             This was written by someone who found this document.  The note on

 7     the first page is by someone who collected this document; right?

 8        A.   That's what it appears, yes.

 9        Q.   Let's see what those Muslims we had referred to were doing.

10             "The Crisis Staff ..."

11             [In English] "... which operated before, but was dissolved

12     immediately before the armed conflicts."

13             [Interpretation] Muhamed Filipovic, SDA party and member of the

14     Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly; Omer Filipovic, commissioner;

15     Asim Egrlic, political figure.

16             We see all these names of people who were members of that

17     Crisis Staff in the municipality.  All these people were employed with

18     the municipality; is that right?

19        A.   All these people?  The names you've listed, yes, were apparently

20     employed with the municipality.

21        Q.   Are these the two who had been dismissed from the municipality?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   We see, therefore, that they also owned independent companies for

24     protection, independent platoons or a platoon.

25             Can we see the next page.

Page 14758

 1             The next page speaks about the military organisation of Muslims

 2     in Kljuc.  In Velagici there's one company, a commander, one platoon, and

 3     so on.  The structure of that unit in Krasulje, the same.  The commander

 4     is Muratagic.  There is a reference to prison.

 5             Can we see the next page?

 6             Did you see this document?  Did you review this document that

 7     refers to the military organisation in all local communes and villages

 8     inhabited by Muslims?

 9        A.   I saw these notes.  My understanding is they are notes by the

10     Kljuc Serbian police.  They are what they've learned about the Muslim

11     organisation.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can this be admitted?  I cannot go on through it.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1350, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 18817.  11 -- sorry, 18817.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Here we see the Crisis Staff of Kljuc informs - it's probably a

19     press release or something - informs that all citizens of Velecevo and

20     Dubocani who had surrendered weapons, illegally-purchased weapons, are

21     given guarantee of security.  And it says the Crisis Staff holds the

22     position that all regular units of the Serbian Army should not take any

23     forcible measures or actions against these citizens, with a view to

24     maintaining the existing security situation and protecting the citizens.

25     If any of the parties fail to honour this proclamation, the offenders

Page 14759

 1     will be subject to all the measures envisaged in these cases.

 2             Did you review this?

 3        A.   I probably saw it, although I'm not immediately familiar with it.

 4     It's not an unusual document to me.  So I can't say that I -- I can't say

 5     100 per cent that I reviewed it.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can this be admitted, MFI'd?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1351, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Pending translation, yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 905.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Would you agree this is a report on the work and activities of

14     the Kljuc Public Security Station, that is, the police station, during

15     combat operations on the territory of Kljuc municipality?  It's July

16     1992, covering these three months of war.

17             I said "July."  Didn't I say "July"?

18        A.   Yes, I agree.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 3 in Serbian and

20     English.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The status of the municipality, Krajina -- and then towards the

23     middle, it says:

24             "In view of the fact it was clear that the concept of unitarian

25     BH cannot succeed, all the activities of SDA were aimed at creating a

Page 14760

 1     Muslim municipality, which was, in fact, done in December, 1992, with the

 2     proclamation of the Bosnian Municipality of Kljuc."

 3             That's towards the top in English.  We need the previous page in

 4     English.

 5        A.   I'm sorry, I'm not seeing it in B/C/S or English.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 3 in English and in Serbian,

 7     item 4.

 8             Those are second pages in both versions.  We need the third page.

 9     It's different in e-court, I suppose.  We need the Serbian as well.

10             Here, item 4, towards the bottom.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did you know that Muslims had established their own municipality

13     of Kljuc?

14        A.   Yes, I knew that there was a division/separation in the

15     municipality.  It's the only one where I see Muslim -- or an equivalent

16     action on the Muslim side, equivalent to the Serb declarations of

17     municipalities.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   There is more:  Prijedor, Sanski Most, Vlasenica, Bratunac,

21     Madam.

22             Well, we can remain on this page in English.

23             Everything was arranged, and had they not reneged on it, the

24     Muslims in those municipalities, there would not have been a war.  But

25     you knew that there were so many municipalities where talks were in

Page 14761

 1     progress, and in some of those municipalities, the appropriate agreements

 2     had already been reached.  Kljuc was not the only one.  Is that not so?

 3        A.   No, I do not see any agreement on the division of municipalities

 4     before the declaration of Serbian municipalities.

 5        Q.   Please pay attention to Chapter 3:

 6             "The basic objective and task of the Public Security Station was

 7     to monitor all events of interest for the security and finding solutions,

 8     lest there should be a war.  The objectives were implemented relatively

 9     successfully up until the end of May 1992."

10             And then further on it says:

11             "Our municipality was one of the rare -- one of the few

12     municipalities where we did not have any open inter-ethnic conflicts."

13             Do you know that they managed to maintain peace until the end of

14     May in the municipality of Kljuc?

15        A.   Yes.  I would also just note an error in the English translation.

16     It says "the first quarter of 1991."  It should be "1992."  It doesn't

17     make sense there, "1991."

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we now look at page 6 in the Serbian version, which would be

20     page 4 in the English language.  So it's the next page in English and one

21     page further down in Serbian.

22             I think we need to go one page further in English, too.  We need

23     Roman numeral IV.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Well, here we see "Goals of the Armed Rebellion" on the part of

Page 14762

 1     the Muslim side.  It says:

 2             "It has been two months since the Muslim extremists and

 3     fundamentalists started their armed rebellion in the area of Kljuc

 4     municipality."

 5             And can we now move on to the next page, both in Serbian and in

 6     English, item 5, where it says -- well, I have to summarise because I

 7     don't have enough time to read through.  And I would like Ms. Hanson to

 8     look at this paragraph, if that was the gist of your objection.

 9             Please look at item 5, "Operative Intelligence," which has shown

10     that there is a parallel system of the Muslim Territorial Defence under

11     the command of Omer Filipovic, who was the president of the MVO in Kljuc

12     and a member of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, and he's a reserve

13     lieutenant; is that correct?

14        A.   Is what correct?  That's what the text says, if that's what you

15     mean, yes.

16        Q.   It's the same Omer Filipovic who was fired; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we now look at the next page, and the last paragraph before

20     the next chapter, where it says:

21             "The attacks began on the 27th of May in the entire valley of the

22     Sana River."

23             Do you know that in late May, there was an all-out attack by the

24     Muslims on Serbs and the Serb municipalities in the Sana valley, Sanski

25     Most, Prijedor, Bosanski Novi and Kljuc.

Page 14763

 1        A.   An all-out attack?  No, I am not aware of an all-out attack.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Look at item 6.  It speaks about the armed activities

 3     in the area of the Kljuc municipality, and it says that it started on the

 4     27th of May, 1992.  On that day, the Muslim extremists and

 5     fundamentalists carried out a synchronised set of armed actions against

 6     members of the police and the military of the Serbian Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina.  Were you not aware of that, were you?

 8        A.   I'm sorry, you were speaking so fast.  Where is the reference?

 9     Item 6, yes.

10             I've seen this report, so I have seen this description of this

11     ambush.  However, the tone of the report and its sources are such that I

12     take it with a grain of salt.  One ambush is not an all-out co-ordinated

13     attack.

14        Q.   We will list them in a minute, Ms. Hanson.  And I'm asking you:

15     Are you an expert, and was it your task to determine which documents to

16     include and which to exclude, which documents were valid and which were

17     not, or is it something that is incumbent upon the Trial Chamber?

18        A.   It is my job, as an expert, to make a selection of documents to

19     include in my report, and part of my selection is based on their

20     credibility and their relationship between the language they use and the

21     reality of events.  I looked at this, but I also looked at the report on

22     the work of the Crisis Staff.  And since my report was based on the work

23     of crisis staffs, I relied on that report.  But I certainly read this

24     one, and I read those police notes.  It's wonderful that the

25     Trial Chamber has a chance to read them all, but a selection is part of

Page 14764

 1     my job as an -- in writing an expert report.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will now see what kind of a job

 3     you did.

 4             Can we please look at the next page.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   On that day, hour by hour, we can see how many synchronised armed

 7     operations were launched against the police, the military, and the

 8     citizens.  That's Serbian page 9.  That would be page 9 in the Serbian

 9     version, item 1, "Ambush in the area of Gornji Ramici, and it's the same

10     page in the English language.  That's page 6 -- that's page 6 in the

11     English version.

12             Yes, I can see that we have the right page:

13             "Setting up an ambush in the Gornji Ramici Sector around

14     9:00 a.m."

15             Is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move on to the next page

18     both in Serbian and in English.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Item 2, "Ambush in the area of Busija and the village of

21     Perin Han."  At 1400 to 1430 hours, this operation was organised and

22     commanded by Amir Avdic and Nezir Djedic [phoen], and about 80 extremists

23     took part in it; is that correct?

24        A.   That's what the text says, yes.

25        Q.   Item 3, "Ambush in the area of Tocina."

Page 14765

 1             Item 4, "Blowing up the M5 road between the area of Velagici and

 2     Laniste."

 3             Do you see this was done on the same day?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   On the previous page, it says that -- well, we don't have enough

 6     time to go back, but Omer Filipovic is again mentioned.

 7             Can we move on to the next page?  We can remain on the same page

 8     in English.

 9             Item 5, "Attack on the check-point in Velagici."  Item 6,

10     "Capture of seven Serbian BH Army soldiers in the Crljeni Village

11     Sector."  Item 7, "Use of our Forces."

12             So the six combat actions on the same day, targeting the Serb

13     army, police and Serbs, themselves, in the depth of the Serb territory,

14     is that tantamount to armed rebellion or not?

15        A.   First of all, I don't know -- when you say "in the depth," I

16     don't know the exact location of these places in the municipality.  When

17     you say "Serb territory," if there are Muslims there, it is not

18     completely Serb territory.  As for armed rebellion, that's a question

19     beyond the scope of my report or expertise on what counts as a rebellion

20     and what is a -- you know, what is the status of the Serb government

21     against which these inhabitants appear to be rising.

22        Q.   Madam, you based your reports on documents.  That's what you told

23     us yesterday.  You said that you did not take into account any witness

24     testimony and so on.  Were you in the municipality of Kljuc in late

25     May 1992 or did you base your report on documents?

Page 14766

 1        A.   I was not in Kljuc in late May 1992.  I based my report on

 2     documents.

 3        Q.   So at page 63 of the transcript, line 5, you say that you

 4     compared documents with the situation in the field.  Did you check

 5     whether this was the situation in the field in the municipality of Kljuc

 6     in late May, and did you make a comparison, and then, based on your

 7     comparison, you decided not to use this document?

 8        A.   I decided not to use this document because it deals mostly with

 9     police matters, and I am dealing with crisis staffs, so I used the report

10     on the work of crisis staffs.  I also found this quite tendentious in its

11     references to fundamentalists and that kind of terminology.  I don't

12     deny -- I have no basis to accept or deny their accounts of these

13     specific attacks.  It's when they discuss the political objectives of

14     people who had been elected to municipal government positions and

15     describe them as fundamentalists and extremists, that's where I felt this

16     report, itself, was straining its own credibility.

17        Q.   Madam, you are saying that the municipal authorities, the crisis

18     staffs and so on, were arresting people, detaining people.  How can they

19     arrest them or detain them, if not with the use of police?  Do you know

20     that after this rebellion, this instance of rebellion, 1.280 citizens,

21     or, rather, rebels, armed rebels who took part in the armed rebellion,

22     were, in fact, arrested in this area?  It was after the rebellion, not

23     before?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the page

25     reference.

Page 14767

 1             JUDGE KWON:  What is the page number?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 12 in Serbian, 004 and so on, and

 3     it's page 8 in the English version.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder if you can answer now, Ms. Hanson.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I'm aware there were arrests at this time.  I don't

 6     know the figure, and I don't know if it was specifically of people who

 7     were known to have taken part in armed action.  I'm not going to accept

 8     the use of the word "rebellion" here; that seems a bit tendentious.

 9             But, yes, here it says that 1.278 citizens were sent to

10     prisoner-of-war camps, and it lists the criterion by which they were sent

11     to the camps.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   Were they arrested because of their religion or ethnicity or

14     because of what they did, and the things they did are listed here?

15        A.   Their list -- the criterion on which they were arrested is

16     listed.  Some of them are a bit vague, and there's no indication that

17     Serbs who owned weapons without a permit were arrested.  There's no

18     indication that Serbs who took an active part in spreading propaganda in

19     order to provoke ethnic hatred were arrested.  I believe the people who

20     were arrested and sent to camps were non-Serbs, but this criterion does

21     not say they were arrested purely on the basis of their ethnicity.

22        Q.   Does it say that they were arrested, inter alia, on the basis of

23     their ethnicity, or is it that it is their contact that was the reason

24     why they were arrested, or was it, inter alia, they were Muslims?  You

25     are excessively partial, Madam.  The conduct is the reason for their

Page 14768

 1     arrest.  Were all Muslims in Kljuc arrested or only those who took part

 2     in those actions?

 3        A.   Not all Muslims were arrested, but not all persons who owned

 4     weapons without a permit were arrested.  Not all persons who took an

 5     active part in provoking ethnic hatred were --

 6        Q.   Well, that's your speculation, Madam, that's your speculation.

 7     You don't have evidence for that.  This document does not contain proof

 8     of that.  It says that there were 12.000 Muslims and only 1.200 and odd

 9     were arrested.  And we saw the list of those who were in those units.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the document doesn't say 1200

12     Muslims, as far as I read it.  It says "persons."  Right down at the very

13     bottom, the very last one, it says "persons who belong to the so-called

14     Muslim TO or persons who actively took part in the organisation and

15     formation of the so-called Muslim TO."  That's the only reference.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Well, you dismissed this document.  It was your assessment that

18     it did not merit your attention; is that correct?

19        A.   It was not included in my report.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can this be admitted?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1352, Your Honours.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Now I would like you to look at paragraph 99 of your report:

Page 14769

 1             [In English] "The Crisis Staffs carried out the policies and

 2     procedures of the forcible departure of non-Serbs.  In Bosanska Krupa,

 3     the War Presidency, in its own words, "suggested two options to the

 4     Muslims: either to organise their own evacuation from the area or to have

 5     that effected by military means."

 6             [Interpretation] Is that so?

 7        A.   That's my report, yes.

 8        Q.   And you took one document out of the context and you characterise

 9     it in this way, and you formed your position on the basis of that; is

10     that correct?

11        A.   No.  I have many more than one document cited in the footnote of

12     the first sentence of that paragraph.  The citation footnote 170, is only

13     to that one quotation, although I notice -- note other relevant

14     documents.

15        Q.   In paragraph -- or, rather, in footnote 177, you use, as an

16     example of forced evacuation of the population, you use document

17     65 ter 6707.

18             Can we have 65 ter 6707.

19             You do know the place that is mentioned here, Arapusa; right?

20        A.   I don't know Arapus a personally.  I'm familiar with the

21     document.

22        Q.   And you say in your footnote -- you mention it in your footnote

23     177; right?  You give this as an example of a crime committed by Serbs?

24        A.   No, I do not give it as an example of a crime committed by Serbs.

25     I give it as an example of a crisis staff organising the removal of the

Page 14770

 1     population of a Muslim village.  I do not describe it as a crime.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, do you see that document in the

 3     footnote referred to?

 4             THE WITNESS:  I think he meant 170, not 177.  No, that's

 5     Podgrmec, sorry.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Arapusa is mentioned specifically

 7     in footnote 177, if I'm not mistaken.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see it, so could you check?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes, it's the bottom of page -- the bottom of

10     the page that has paragraph 101 on it, under "Bosanska Krupa," under

11     footnote 177, the second item.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Let us look at this document, Ms. Hanson.  This document speaks

14     about the evacuation in a column where people would be using their own

15     vehicles.  The column would be secured by the battalion.  And upon their

16     departure from the border post where the battalion command was, "the

17     battalion command on the Bozo Erceg will be responsible for providing

18     security for the entire village of Arapusa and all movable and immovable

19     property."

20             Can we move on to page 2?  We can remain on page 1 in the English

21     version and move to page 2 in the Serbian version.

22             "On the basis of an agreement with the War Staff Command of the

23     Serbian Municipality of Bosanska Krupa, Mr. Miroslav Vjestica, as soon as

24     peace is established, the command is obliged to ensure the safe return of

25     the residents to their homes in Arapusa and the refugees to

Page 14771

 1     Bosanska Krupa."

 2             The refugees from Bosanska Krupa to Bosanska Krupa.

 3             Do you see that this was signed on behalf of the

 4     Executive Committee of the Arapusa Local Commune, Emir Sejdic, a Muslim;

 5     and for the Committee of the refugees from Bosanska Krupa, a man by the

 6     name of Fuad Djugomovic, Fuad, again a Muslim; and on behalf of the

 7     battalion command, it was Bozo Erceg and Djordjo Jez; is that correct?

 8        A.   That's what the document indicates, yes.

 9        Q.   And you use this as an example of the expulsions of the Muslim

10     population?

11        A.   Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can this be admitted?

14             JUDGE KWON:  What is the 65 ter number of this?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 6707, I believe, 6707.

16             JUDGE KWON:  What is 17272?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that's the previous one.

18     Has it been admitted?  No, the previous one was 905.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, I refer to the number which is cited in a

20     footnote.

21             THE WITNESS:  That's where I found it.  Sometimes documents have

22     duplicates and there might be more than one 65 ter number, but I don't

23     know if that's true in this case.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the same document under a

25     different number.

Page 14772

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, we admit this.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1353, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to look at

 4     65 ter 6703.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you see this, that the date is the 19th of April, 1993?  It's

 7     a report by the Executive Board, so that's regular authorities.  They

 8     have submitted their report about the spontaneous migration of the

 9     population.  The Serbs crossed the River Una, from the left bank to the

10     right bank, and the Muslims moved in the opposite direction.  Are you

11     familiar with this document?

12        A.   I see no reference here to spontaneous migration, just an

13     exchange of population.

14        Q.   Well, it says here at the outbreak of war, there was a migration

15     of the population.  Serbs from the left bank of the Una crossed to the

16     right.  So they were not moved.  They left, themselves.

17        A.   According to this Serb -- member of the Serbian municipal

18     government, yes, that's the term he uses.

19        Q.   And do you agree with me that we have Bosanska Krupa and

20     Srpska Krupa, two municipalities that are divided by the river?  --

21        A.   We had the Serbs declare the Serbian Municipality of Krupa, so by

22     default, the other municipality or the municipality that was not part of

23     the Serbian municipality remained Bosanska Krupa, but it was not an

24     agreed division, as far as I know.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 14773

 1             Can this be admitted?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And do you know that talks were under way, and they would have

 4     been successful had not the SDA central [as interpreted] intervened and

 5     prevented this?

 6        A.   No, I have no basis for knowing that the talks would have been

 7     successful, nor that the SDA intervened.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1354, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Your last question before the break.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at

14     65 ter 6711.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   This is an overview of persons arrested, or captured and

17     arrested, on the 21st and 22nd of April, 1992, in an armed conflict in

18     Bosanska Krupa.  And we have a list of 12 people who were captured.  And

19     the third person on the list, Sadrija Djudja, was transferred to the

20     refugees because an assessment was probably made that he had not taken

21     part in the fighting.  Did you know about this document?

22        A.   I believe I've seen it, yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can this be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 14774

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1355, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for half an hour.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Unfortunately, Ms. Hanson, we cannot dwell on Krupa any longer,

 8     or some other municipalities.  But Krupa, as you confirmed, is the place

 9     where the president of the Crisis Staff, Mr. Klickovic, was acquitted

10     before the Bosnian Court.

11             I'd like to come back to the instructions, what the central

12     organs were doing.

13             In your paragraph 38, you said:

14             [In English] "On 26 April, 1992, the Government of the

15     Republika Srpska issued instructions for the work of crisis staffs of the

16     Serbian people in municipalities."

17             [Interpretation] Then in paragraph 43, you said that crisis

18     staffs acted in accordance with these instructions for crisis staffs.

19             Is that correct?  Is it right that you say that they received and

20     applied the instructions of the government?

21        A.   Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             D407, please, briefly.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is D407.  Is this an excerpt from the instructions for the

Page 14775

 1     work of crisis staffs, signed by Prime Minister Djeric on the 26th of

 2     April?  We'll see that on the next page.  That's the report that is

 3     meant; right?

 4        A.   That's one of the versions.  The version I used is in Cyrillic.

 5     But it's one of them, yes.

 6        Q.   So in Article 1, it says:

 7             "The Crisis Staff, under circumstances of war, takes over all the

 8     prerogatives and the functions of municipal assemblies, when these are

 9     unable to convene."

10             And item 3 says:

11             "The Crisis Staff co-ordinates functions of the authorities for

12     the purposes of defending territory ..."

13             It co-ordinates functions of the existing authorities; correct?

14        A.   It says "co-ordinates the functions of authority."  The

15     translation said "existing authority."  I don't see that exact word in

16     there.  I don't know if it's a question of the translation or not.

17        Q.   Do you understand that it's not a new government?  The

18     Crisis Staff is made up of the members of the existing authorities,

19     ex officio?

20        A.   It says it's the work of crisis staffs of the Serbian people in

21     municipalities.  I don't see that the -- it's not specified that they be

22     all Serbs, the way it was in the 19 December instructions.  But the

23     crisis staffs I see that operate according to this don't -- don't include

24     the non-Serb office-holders.  These are the organs of the Serbian people,

25     the Serbian municipalities or municipal assemblies.  So it's not purely

Page 14776

 1     ex officio, in that if the elected president of the Municipal Assembly

 2     was a Muslim, I don't see him included on the crisis staffs that operate,

 3     according to these instructions.

 4        Q.   If we decided to have our own municipalities, how would a Muslim

 5     be elected a representative of the Serbian people in that municipality,

 6     and how did you determine that Djeric is referring to the 19th December

 7     paper?  Where is it written that he had ever known about that paper?

 8        A.   He makes no reference in this to the 19 December instructions.  I

 9     see the continuity described in the documents of the organs, themselves,

10     that describe the continuity between the organs formed upon the 19

11     December instructions and the municipal organs here.  But you asked about

12     the "ex officio" question.  I'm saying that these are only from the

13     offices of the declared Serbian municipal assemblies.  I think we agree

14     on the "ex officio" question.

15             As for indications that Djeric had ever heard of the 19 December

16     instructions, I'd have to check whether he was at those Assembly sessions

17     at which they were discussed, but they were certainly discussed in the

18     Assembly.  And as we saw, declarations of municipal assemblies taken on

19     the basis of the 19 December instructions were published in "Javnost," so

20     we certainly couldn't exclude that he heard of them.  They were also

21     published in "Oslobodjenje," just about the -- no, it was in late March

22     1992, so he would have heard of them, most likely.

23        Q.   Madam, please, do you have any document by Djeric where he says

24     that he is acting upon the basis of the 19th December 1991 document; yes

25     or no?

Page 14777

 1        A.   No.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can we see the next page.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   While we're waiting:  Ms. Hanson, do you allow the possibility

 6     that the paper of the 19th December and this paper, too, have some common

 7     ground, and that the 19th December paper is not the ground paper, the

 8     fundamental paper?  There is another basic document for all of this.

 9     It's called the Law on All People's Defence.

10        A.   I certainly agree that the paper of 19 December and this paper

11     have some common ground; it's the crisis staffs of the Serbian people.

12     As for the Law on All People's Defence, they do call for the creation of

13     the council.  All People's Defence committees, as I indicated in my

14     report, I see some common ground, some commonality, between those organs

15     and the crisis staffs.  However, neither this document by Djeric, nor the

16     19 December instructions, explicitly refer to the committees for all

17     people's defence, all people's defence, or to the Law on

18     All People's Defence.  As far as I know, the Law on All People's Defence

19     does not use the term "crisis staffs," so I can't see a direct

20     connection, but I do see, in the documents of the crisis staffs and war

21     presidencies, themselves, that they see a direct chain from the

22     19 December instructions of party crisis staffs to Djeric's instructions

23     on municipal crisis staffs, and I see a continuity between those bodies.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Karadzic.

25             Can we see -- just for the purpose of a reminder, can we see the

Page 14778

 1     19th of December document?  Do you have that exhibit number?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  P960, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Can you up-load it briefly.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can leaf through to see where --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Because there was several versions, I now know what

 6     it was.

 7             Please proceed.  Let's go back to D407.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you see in this document items 9 and 10, what

10     Prime Minister Djeric instructs the crisis staffs to do?  Items 9, 10 and

11     13.  I don't want to read.  Let everyone read it themselves.

12             You said this was applied.  You said the instructions of the

13     government were applied.  Was this applied?

14        A.   The work with international peace-making and humanitarian

15     organisations, we certainly see -- have seen that discussion of the

16     International Red Cross.  The unhindered transport of humanitarian aid

17     was not always observed.  Article 10 again cites the

18     International Red Cross and acting humanely towards -- or utterly

19     humanely towards the combats -- non-combatants and humanely towards war

20     prisoners.

21             Again, we see crisis staffs involved in these issues, including

22     the condition of prisoners, including talking to the

23     International Red Cross.  So to that extent, yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  The basic question in paragraph 43 is that they

25     received it and acted upon it.  Do you stand by that, that they received

Page 14779

 1     the instructions and acted upon them?

 2        A.   Yes, I stand by that.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we see D408.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 6        Q.   One day later, Prime Minister Djeric -- or, rather, the Ministry

 7     for Health-Care and Social Protection sends instructions to all regional

 8     staffs to act humanely with humanitarian convoys, to enable treatment of

 9     the wounded and the ill, regardless of nationality and faith, that

10     international norms have to be observed in the treatment of prisoners of

11     war.  Did you take into account this, this instruction from a ministry to

12     crisis staffs?

13        A.   I'm not sure I did.  But had I seen it, I would certainly have

14     included it because -- as I have bemoaned the lack of documentation on

15     regional crisis staffs.  So if something from the Ministry of Health --

16     if you'll allow me to check my notes, I'll see if I've included this one

17     or not.  But I would have, had I seen it.  It certainly supports my

18     conclusion that the regional crisis staffs were also operating in the

19     state system.  I'm sorry, I can't find it right now, but I would have

20     included it.

21        Q.   With all due respect, Ms. Hanson, these are instructions from the

22     central level of government to crisis staffs.  Do you agree that

23     everything coming from central authorities indicates that they want to

24     preserve law and order?  Did you find any document from the central level

25     that would be contrary to this?

Page 14780

 1        A.   I would -- as I say, I didn't see this one, that I recall.  I

 2     would certainly have included it.  It certainly is expecting correct

 3     conduct, in accordance with international law, so it's very much in that.

 4     As for the broader question of anything coming, some of them -- I

 5     don't -- no, they generally -- where they refer to international -- or to

 6     law and order, they are for the maintenance of law and order, I'm

 7     struggling a little because I'm trying to recall every document I've

 8     seen, but I do not see them urging any illegal activities, if that's what

 9     you're trying -- the -- when they refer to law and order, yes, they are

10     trying to preserve law and order.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             For the record, this document, because we didn't see the

13     signature, was signed by then Minister of Health Dragan Kalinic, who was

14     a member of the government from an opposition party.

15             Could we now see P1095.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you help us, Ms. Hanson, whether the original

17     was written in English?

18             THE WITNESS:  It certainly appears to be the original in English.

19     That's the one with the stamp and the signature.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1095, please.

23             These are minutes from the 28th session of the government, dated

24     15 June.

25             The last page, please.

Page 14781

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The second paragraph:

 3             "The session --"

 4             The last page but one in English:

 5             "The session indicated the high importance of ensuring the

 6     functioning of government and overall life in all parts of the republic;

 7     inter alia, republic commissioners should contribute to that because they

 8     are representatives of all republic organs."

 9             Do you see that already in early June, after the decision to

10     abolish crisis staffs was taken, the government is trying to help out

11     local authorities by sending commissioners?

12        A.   Yes.  This is just five days after the presidential decision on

13     the formation of war commissions.  I would just note, for the Court's

14     assistance, that here in the translation, the word "povjerenik" has been

15     translated as "trustee," but that's the word that is usually translated

16     as "commissioner," so it is a reference to war commissioners.

17        Q.   Well, it's an issue in our language.  We don't like the word

18     "commissioner" because it reminds us of "komesar," so perhaps "trustee"

19     is not bad.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not get the number of the

21     document.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D440.  Let us see how the

23     vice-president of the republic, Koljevic, on 16 July 1992, expressed his

24     dissatisfaction with his own control and influence over these

25     commissioners.

Page 14782

 1             The next page, please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   He says that he is dissatisfied, he's offering his resignation,

 4     and he says it's not about the work of the Presidency, but its

 5     contribution.  He stressed he cannot govern republic commissioners, which

 6     he considers to be his failure.  Were you aware of this?

 7        A.   Yes, and then Momcilo Krajisnik was replaced as the member of the

 8     Presidency responsible for commissioners.  But in this session, Koljevic

 9     is trying to resign altogether from the Presidency.  He says the whole

10     work is too much for him and he's dissatisfied with his performance.  And

11     the other members want him to stay on, and he does, but some jobs are

12     taken away from him.

13        Q.   He says he cannot govern republican commissioners; correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's what Koljevic says.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Let's look at D445.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Does it look to you, Ms. Hanson, like the authorities are bending

19     over backwards to try to change the situation on the ground?  They are

20     changing crisis staffs and war presidencies and creating commissioners?

21        A.   Yes, that's how it looks.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at this.  This is a proclamation to the

23     citizens of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; citizens, mind

24     you, not Serbs.

25             The second paragraph refers to Geneva Conventions, which

Page 14783

 1     stipulate that civilians in war-afflicted areas must be allowed to

 2     evacuate.  Furthermore, evacuation has to be voluntary.  Therefore, it

 3     cannot be either obstructed or encouraged.

 4             And the second sentence:

 5             "The authorities of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina are not forcibly keeping citizens in war zones, because

 7     otherwise the citizens would be hostages, nor are they forcibly

 8     transferring them because that would be ethnic cleansing.  All refugees

 9     from the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will

10     be allowed to return without suffering any consequences.  Only criminals,

11     not civilians, are subject to legal sanctions."

12             Were you aware of this proclamation?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you include it in your report as a reference to the activity

15     and work of the central organs?

16        A.   No, because my focus was, as I said before, on municipal crisis

17     staffs, and this doesn't directly address crisis staffs.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we now see 65 ter -- could it be P1112?  65 ter 11273 --

20     65 ter 11273.

21             This is a session of the Cabinet on the 14th September 1992 in

22     Bijeljina.  We see that on page 1.

23             Can we see the next page in Serbian.

24             This is obviously my handwriting and my diary.

25             Let us then see page 6 in English.  I cannot even understand my

Page 14784

 1     handwriting.  We need page 6 in English.

 2             Let's see what Prime Minister Djeric says:

 3             [In English] "War is chaos, but it is a fact that each minister

 4     must be held responsible, the MUP in particular."

 5             [Interpretation] Page 7 in English:

 6             "Crisis staffs ..."

 7             [In English] " ... are authorised to do whatever pleased them,

 8     and now it is difficult to return everything to what it used to be.

 9             "Bad working conditions, bad communications"?

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you agree that this was in mid-September 1992, and we were

12     still having problems restoring normal functioning, and in some places

13     crisis staffs still exist?

14        A.   Could I see the original?  It certainly sounds it.  But by

15     September, I don't see many crisis staffs.  Many municipal assemblies

16     were already -- had already met in July or August/September.  "Crisis

17     staffs were authorised to do whatever pleased them" I see as part of

18     giving them the initiative, but with the -- initiative to take action on

19     the ground, giving them considerable latitude, but they were still seen

20     as part of the system.  "And now it's difficult to return everything to

21     how it used to be."  I don't know if he's referring to pre-war or before

22     the formation of crisis staffs.  That's not -- that's not clear.

23        Q.   Well, you said yourself that the crisis staffs were activated in

24     early April, when the war broke out.  But the point here is the

25     prime minister is actually saying that it is difficult to achieve that

Page 14785

 1     everyone can return because there is a chaos, and the crisis staffs were

 2     doing whatever they wanted.  It's difficult to go back to the way things

 3     were before.  And he is talking about bad communications and bad

 4     conditions of work.

 5             Do you agree with me that this is the position of the government

 6     in early September?

 7        A.   Yes.  I believe Djeric even tried to resign over -- at about this

 8     time.  I'm not exactly sure of the chronology, but he complained,

 9     similarly, that he is having trouble working because -- his working

10     conditions were poor because he was left out of -- he wasn't receiving a

11     lot of information.  He tried to resign, I believe.  But, again, I did

12     not review the chronology of the republican level at this time for my

13     report.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can this be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unless it has already been

18     admitted.  I'm not sure.  It hasn't been admitted yet, so can it then be

19     admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1356, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have 1D3590.

23             We don't have enough time to present everything that we have on

24     Prijedor.  Let us look at a report, how things were in Prijedor until the

25     end of 1992.

Page 14786

 1             So this is a report.  We're still waiting for the English

 2     version.  This is a report for the period between the 11th of September

 3     until the 26th of December, 1992, in Prijedor municipality.  It's a party

 4     report filed by the Municipal Board of the SDS.

 5             Now I would like us to go to page 7 in Serbian and page 6 in

 6     English.  Page 6 in the English version.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I would like you to turn your attention to the penultimate

 9     passage here:

10             "When the war broke out, on the orders of the leadership at Pale,

11     the crisis staffs are formed, later on war presidencies, to replace the

12     municipal boards, and the president of the Municipal Board of the SDS and

13     the People's deputy were not members thereof."

14             And then it goes on to say that:

15             "During the time of war and the secession of party activities,

16     there were no contacts with the central office of the party or the state

17     leadership of the Serbian Republic," or Republika Srpska.

18             And the last passage here says:

19             "Communication was not established until September 1992."

20             Are you aware of the fact that the central organs were not able

21     to communicate with the western part of Bosnia throughout this time?  And

22     here we see the example of Prijedor to corroborate that.

23        A.   Well, I see this contradicted, for example, by the Prijedor

24     decision on the work of the crisis staffs, which, as we noted, in some

25     places is a literal transcription of Djeric's instructions.  So they did

Page 14787

 1     receive those guide-lines.  I have heard -- I know this issue of

 2     communications has come up before, and there were times when

 3     communications were difficult, but they were often restored as well.  So,

 4     in fact, since I've seen evidence, first of all, that the Crisis Staff

 5     was formed well before the beginning of the war, so I tend not to believe

 6     that statement then, because I know they received Djeric's guide -- I

 7     tend not to believe the statement that they received no guide-lines or

 8     general directions from the leaders of the Serbian Republic.

 9        Q.   Do you agree that this is a report of the Serbian Democratic

10     Party and that they say that they have not been in touch with the central

11     organs?  I'm not talking about the Executive Board, I'm not talking about

12     the municipality.  I'm talking about the party.  The party was not

13     represented in the Crisis Staff.  It has ceased its operation, and it did

14     not have any contacts with the headquarters -- party headquarters in

15     Pale; is that correct?

16        A.   That the SDS party was not represented in the Crisis Staff, I

17     don't think that's correct.  Yes, I've heard -- I've seen considerable

18     reference throughout Bosnia to the order on the freezing of party

19     activities during the war or, basically, from the outbreak of the war to

20     the beginning of 1993, so I'm familiar with that.  But as I note, it's

21     the party leadership in the municipalities who generally become the

22     leaders of the Crisis Staff and now are communicating with the republican

23     level via state organs.

24        Q.   Well, it says here, quite clearly, in the War Presidency there

25     are no representatives of the SDS, and the people's deputy is not there

Page 14788

 1     either, and they did not have any contacts with the central level of the

 2     government of Republika Srpska until September 1992.  So do you reject

 3     this or do you agree with it?

 4        A.   It says that the president of the SDS Municipal Board was not on

 5     the Crisis Staff or War Presidency.  It doesn't say that the SDS had no

 6     representation there.  And I reject parts of this, because I don't think

 7     they're true.  As I said, I have evidence to the contrary, so I do not

 8     accept this report entirely.  And one of the things I do not accept is

 9     that they received no guide-lines from the leaders of the

10     Serbian Republic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in the diary that we looked

12     at a little while ago, if we had time, we would point your attention to

13     where it says that they had not had contact for 45 days with the

14     representatives from Prijedor.  But we don't have the time.

15             Can we go to page 8 in the Serbian version.  That's page 6 in the

16     English version.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Here, it says to this day, strong ties have not been established

19     with the party grassroots and the main board of the party in Pale,

20     although it had been arranged at the last meeting, because the personnel

21     was not brought up to the same level by the SDS, as they were supposed to

22     do.  Strong centres of power have been created - that's page 6 in the

23     English version - which are not under party control.

24             This whole passage begins with the words:  "Since July ..."

25             Now we're on page 7 in the English version, and we need page 6.

Page 14789

 1        A.   This is discussing the party relations, as I make clear in my

 2     report.  With the shift to public government functions of crisis staffs,

 3     the linking -- the linkage went through state organs and the party work

 4     was frozen.

 5        Q.   You can see here that by the end of December, proper

 6     communication has not been established yet between the party headquarters

 7     and the party bodies in Prijedor?

 8        A.   Well, it notes that a session of the Assembly was held in

 9     Prijedor, which certainly indicates some kind of communication and

10     accessibility.  But, again, this is about the work of the party board,

11     and I agree that there was a freeze announced on party work at this time.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1357, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And you claim, in your paragraph 13, that the party, the SDS,

17     used this undefined term, which is "the crisis staff," ...

18             [In English] "And applied it to a different kind of body, a party

19     organ which claimed the authority of a collective municipal presidency."

20             Do you mean to say that identical party -- that the party crisis

21     staff and municipal party staffs are identical, as state authorities,

22     from April 1992 onwards.

23        A.   I note that in some places when they became public municipal

24     authorities, some -- the membership sometimes was expanded.  I know in

25     Prijedor, there were more changes than usual, but we do see a crisis

Page 14790

 1     staff formed in Prijedor on the 19 December instructions and operating in

 2     public in April.  Most of the bodies which are public municipal

 3     authorities, in late spring/summer of 1992, quite openly trace their

 4     origin back to the party organs of 19 December 1991.  I agree, in

 5     Prijedor there was some personnel change.

 6        Q.   If I were to tell you that the crisis staffs of the party were

 7     not able and were not authorised to do anything more than just report to

 8     the party headquarters about the events, and that the municipal crisis

 9     staffs actually exercised power, and their composition was different,

10     well, is that correct or not?

11        A.   "Authorised" is a difficult question here.  We're talking about

12     authorisation of party crisis staffs.  On what authority?  On the

13     authority of the president of the party, they were told to take over the

14     police stations, for example.  And I say there is some differences in

15     composition.  The -- some personnel was added when they became municipal

16     crisis staffs, but the continuity is there.  They saw themselves as

17     founded on the 19 December instructions.  You, yourself, cite the

18     19 December instructions as the founding document that created secret

19     governments in minority municipalities, and those became the authorities.

20        Q.   So you're not making any distinction between municipal crisis

21     staffs, as authorities, and the party crisis staffs, as internal party

22     bodies, whose only power was to report and nothing else; yes or no?

23        A.   I can't agree with the entire statement, because I don't say that

24     party -- as internal party organs, their only power was to report, and

25     nothing else.  But, essentially, I see a continuity between the two,

Page 14791

 1     between party crisis staffs in December 1991 and public crisis staffs in

 2     April 1992.  But I refuse to comment on -- or I just don't feel I can

 3     comment on what were the powers of the party crisis staffs.

 4        Q.   Well, by way of example, I don't have a document here, but you

 5     say that the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Democratic Party from Bijeljina

 6     is reporting to the Main Board about something that was happening in

 7     Bijeljina, and I'm telling you the Crisis Staff of the Bijeljina Serbian

 8     Democratic Party is reporting to the party headquarters about what the

 9     defence council of Bijeljina is doing, as a state authority.  So the

10     party organ is simply reporting to the party headquarters about what

11     state authorities and another state organ is doing; is that so or not?

12        A.   The report of the police from Bijeljina says that under the

13     leadership of the SDS Crisis Staff, Arkan's volunteers and the Serbian TO

14     were operating in the municipality.  So although, yes, that document you

15     mentioned is simply a report, other documents indicate that the same

16     Crisis Staff was actually doing other things, including co-ordinating the

17     take-over.

18        Q.   Party crisis staff or the municipal crisis staff?

19        A.   SDS Crisis Staff is, I believe, how the police report refers to

20     it, but I'd have to check the exact citation.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             We don't have the time.  Bijeljina will be on the agenda later

23     on.

24             I would like to have this document admitted, and then we can look

25     at 65 ter 3719.

Page 14792

 1             It's been admitted?  Okay.

 2             Can we look at 65 ter 3719.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Now I will put it to you that everything that was done, including

 5     the participation of the ruling party, was done under the Law on

 6     All People's Defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and the Law

 7     on All People's Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8             Do you remember -- well, you noted that the president of the

 9     League of Communists of Bosnia-Herzegovina headed the Security Council or

10     the Defence Council.  And you said that if we were to replace the League

11     of Communists with the Serbian Democratic Party, it would become quite

12     clear why Karadzic became the head of the Council for National Defence?

13        A.   When I refer to replacing the League of Communists with the SDS,

14     I'm talking about the municipal borders.  I don't -- municipal

15     organisations.  I don't believe I mention Karadzic there.  It simply

16     says -- paragraph 15 is talking about if you replace SDS for League of

17     Communists, you can see that the municipal crisis -- I don't say

18     "municipal," I'm sorry, that's what I'm referring to, they refer these

19     committees more than they do the municipal presidencies.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the League of Communists was there

21     because it was the ruling party at the time, and that after the elections

22     in Serb areas, the Serbian Democratic Party came into power, and that

23     this formed the basis for the substitution?

24        A.   "Serb areas" is a problem.  In the Serb-majority municipalities,

25     yes, the SDS had the majority of municipal positions, but there was no

Page 14793

 1     area that was completely Serb.

 2        Q.   Are you familiar with this Federal Law on All People's Defence?

 3        A.   Yes.  I cite in my report the republic law, but I'm familiar with

 4     the federal, and I think they're in accordance with each other.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at Article 13.  I don't

 6     know what page it is, but can you just browse through it until we reach

 7     Article 13 in the English.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You can see here that:

10             "Workers and citizens have an obligation and the right to

11     organise themselves and to take part in the organisation/preparation for

12     an implementation of All People's Defence, to educate for

13     All People's Defence, and for the carrying out of tasks in time of war,

14     in the event of an immediate threat of war and other emergencies; to take

15     part in armed struggle and other forms of All People's Defence --"

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Karadzic is kindly asked to read a bit more

17     slowly.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you don't have to read out everything.

19     If you mean to read something, slow down.

20             So now we have Article 13.  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you see Articles 13, 14 and 15, which stipulate that this is

23     not only a right, but an obligation to take part in the defence of the

24     country, and one of the articles say that there need not be a call-up and

25     that people should take part in defending their country wherever they are

Page 14794

 1     at the given moment?

 2        A.   Yes.  I haven't had time to read everything, but I certainly know

 3     that that's the intention of this law.  I agree that that's the intention

 4     of this law.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we look at Article 17.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Article 17 specifies the rights and obligations in greater

 9     detail.  Do you agree that this law stipulates that even social and

10     political communities and organs of companies and other communities are

11     duty-bound to ensure that conditions are there in order to enable

12     citizens to meet the obligations from Articles 1 and 2 of this law?

13        A.   Yes, I see that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that in the republican law, the law of

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, it is stipulated in Article 5 -- well, we'll get

16     it in e-court, but we don't have it here.  It says if there is an

17     imminent threat of war or other emergency situation, or if there is an

18     attack on the country, citizens and workers, and social and political

19     communities, and work organisations are duty-bound to carry out their

20     duties in the defence of the country, and act in accordance with their

21     war assignment, and with the appropriate plan, defence plan, without

22     being called up to do so?

23        A.   I do not recall Article 5, that it says that.  I would not be

24     surprised that it does.  But without the article in front of me, I can't

25     confirm it.

Page 14795

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like us to admit this

 2     federal law, and then if we can call up the republican law.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1351, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have 65 ter 18606.

 6             Now please find Article 5.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Well, you read Serbian.  Look at the second paragraph in

 9     Article 5, where it says:

10             "Without being called up or without receiving a specific

11     order ..."

12             Do you agree with me?

13        A.   Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I thought that the

15     entire law would be translated, because this is a 65 ter document, but

16     that doesn't seem to be the case.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You used the Serbian version when you studied this law; right?

19        A.   Yes, I must have.  If it hasn't all been translated, I must have.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at Article 16.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

22        Q.   Article 16, you can see that this is -- it is a duty of workers

23     and citizens to ensure that intelligence is given, and Article 18

24     specifies that citizens must comply with the work obligation in line with

25     the law; is that correct?

Page 14796

 1        A.   I'm sorry, it was scrolled by pretty fast.  Article 16, could I

 2     see it in its entirety?  Thanks.

 3        Q.   "To maintain weapons and equipment that they have been issued

 4     with, in line with their wartime assignment; to inform the alerting

 5     centre, the appropriate organ of the local commune, or other organs, of

 6     any events that will affect national security and that they have

 7     observed."

 8             Do you know the indictment charges us that we actually gave the

 9     tasks to the organs in the field to monitor the transportation of weapons

10     through their territory and to monitor and report all other events that

11     were relevant for the defence of the country?

12        A.   I'm not familiar with that exact part of the indictment, no, but,

13     I mean, I know that that's -- I don't see it -- I don't remember it as a

14     charge in the indictment.  I'm familiar with it in the reports on the

15     development of the party, on events in Bosnia.  But as a specific charge

16     in the indictment, no.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that under this law, citizens are

18     duty-bound to report any events that are significant for the defence, and

19     everybody in the British Isles would be able to understand that quite

20     well?

21        A.   On the British Isles, I'm sorry, I don't know where that came

22     from.  Was that in the interpretation?

23        Q.   Well, just disregard that, please.  Look at this text.

24        A.   This is expect -- they are expected to be -- expected to do those

25     things to the responsible authorities, which are their municipal- or

Page 14797

 1     republic-level authorities.  They are supposed to do this within the

 2     existing political system.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we now look at Article 18, which regulates work obligation.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You knew, did you not, that the workers who were not engaged in

 7     the army were subject to work obligation, they had to perform the

 8     assignments that were given to them under the work obligation?

 9        A.   Yes.  I said I was familiar with that concept of work obligation,

10     yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we look at Article 33.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you know that here, in the documents and in the evidence of

15     various experts, there was some criticism levied towards work

16     organisations because they paid their profits into the municipal

17     treasury, or, rather, to the treasury of the Crisis Staff?  Do you agree

18     with me that Article 33 obliges companies to secure strategic stockpiles

19     and to carry out other preparations for the defence, in line with their

20     capacities and other capabilities?

21        A.   Yes, that's what it says here.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we see Article 46.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Item 1 says:

Page 14798

 1             "To organise themselves and prepare for conducting armed

 2     struggle, and applying other forms of resistance to the enemy.  Organise

 3     control and protection of local communes and security for facilities, and

 4     for those needs to form Territorial Defence units."

 5             All these paragraphs are important.

 6             Item 5:

 7             "To organise and conduct preparations to mobilise citizens

 8     assigned into the armed forces, in keeping with the relevant plan of the

 9     municipality."

10             Did you know that the Serbian Democratic Party is accused of

11     encouraging people to respond to mobilisation call-ups into the JNA?

12        A.   This is -- it specifies that it's supposed to be according to the

13     plan of the municipality.  As for the charge -- accusation, again, I

14     don't know that it's an accusation in the indictment.  It is certainly

15     discussed in the history or in the pre-trial brief, that the SDA -- SDS -

16     I'm sorry, I'm getting tired - the SDS encouraged people to respond to

17     the mobilisation call-ups.  But that it's an accusation, I wouldn't frame

18     it as such.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we look at Article 50.

21             It's on the screen.  It says that:

22             "Local communes may enlarge.  They can jointly organise

23     institutions and units of territorial defence and civilian protection

24     units."

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14799

 1        Q.   Is that written here in this article?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Article 51.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Socio-political organisations, that means parties, associations,

 7     et cetera, correct, also have certain obligations related to national

 8     defence, and they direct the activity of their members; correct?

 9             Article 52 --

10        A.   I'm still reading Article 51.  So far, it agrees with what you've

11     said, yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can we see Article 52 and 53, referring to the

14     League of Communists and the Socialist Alliance, as the ruling parties at

15     the time, and their obligations regarding defence.

16        A.   It says the League of Communists is the carrier of ideo-political

17     activities.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we just scroll down a little to see about the

20     Socialist Alliance of the Working People.  Let's see what socio-political

21     communities, such as municipalities and the republic, are supposed to do.

22             Can we see Article 58, "The Association of War Veterans, trade

23     unions, associations, the Association of Socialist Youth ."

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you believe that all socio-political organisations are

Page 14800

 1     required to get involved in the defence of the country?

 2             And then this article, if we can scroll down a little.  The

 3     rights and duties of socio-political associations or organisations.  We

 4     know that these are municipalities and republics.

 5             We need to see the bottom, lower down.

 6             "Rights and duties of socio-political communities," that's the

 7     heading; right?

 8        A.   Yes, that's the heading.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we see paragraph 6, sorry, in Article 59.

11             "Organise territorial defence.  Ensure the unity of organisation.

12     Control and command.  Communications."

13             Article 11:  "Preparation of mobilisation."

14             Item 12:

15             "Organise the preparation and training of their organs for work

16     in war and under immediate threat of war."

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you see that they are able to organise and prepare and enable

19     their organs, and within that framework, they can use the institutions of

20     presidencies, or crisis staffs, or any other way they see fit to make it

21     work?

22        A.   Again, I don't see "Crisis Staff" specified, but, yes, the

23     tradition -- the Socialist legislation went on the Partisan tradition and

24     emphasised, well, everybody participating, flexibility, local initiative.

25     In the event of invasion, where you lose contact with the leadership,

Page 14801

 1     take local initiative.  But this law is referring to the existing legal

 2     socio-political units.  It expects these duties to be carried out within

 3     the existing legal municipalities and other organs.

 4        Q.   Was this law in force in 1992?  And it hasn't been replaced to

 5     this day, has it?

 6        A.   I don't know the current state of -- you mean in -- in the

 7     Republic of Bosnia, I mean, I'm sure the laws have been adapted to the

 8     present day.  I believe this was in force on the 19th of December, 1991,

 9     and in the beginning of 1992.  I know the RS adopted a lot of the

10     legislation from the former Yugoslavia as its own, but I believe that --

11     their own Law on Defence, and they certainly did not include the

12     League of Communists' role.  I haven't sat down, personally, and done a

13     comparison -- I haven't studied the RS Law on Defence enough to say what

14     is taken from this and what is not, but I'm sure that some things have

15     been changed.  I don't know if this system of All People's Defence has

16     been retained.  I simply don't know.

17        Q.   Do you believe that until 1995, until the end of the war, this

18     law continued to be in effect without change?

19        A.   Throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  I don't know, I

20     don't know.

21        Q.   Do you remember that Republika Srpska proclaimed that the laws it

22     had not adopted, it will adopt and observe from the legislation of the

23     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?  The Assembly took that position?

24        A.   I do know that.  I do not know when the RS proclaimed its own

25     Law on Defence and how it compares to this.  I simply do not know.  But I

Page 14802

 1     am certainly aware that, yes, the laws not adopted will be taken from the

 2     legislation of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Article 66, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   66 and 67 deal with the role of the Presidency in war and

 7     immediate threat of war.  The Presidency of Municipal Assembly is

 8     organised.  The president of a Municipal Assembly directs resistance on

 9     the territory of the municipality, and the Presidency must report to the

10     Municipal Assembly as soon as it is able to convene.  The Presidency

11     consists of the president and a certain number of members.

12             And it says lower down, on the next page at the top:

13             "President of the Executive Board, Municipal Assembly, president

14     of the Local Board of the League of Communists," that means the ruling

15     party, "Socialist Alliance, commander of the Territorial Defence."

16             Does this Article 67 stipulate the composition of the presidency

17     of a municipal assembly in case of war or immediate threat of war?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we see Articles 68 and 69.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you agree that the Municipal Assembly organises a council for

23     national defence?  It consists of the president and a certain number of

24     members.

25             Look at Article 68, please, to see what this Council for National

Page 14803

 1     Defence deals with: providing direction, funding, All People's Defence,

 2     sources of its finance, organising territorial defence, civilian

 3     protection, the service of monitoring and alerting, encryption,

 4     et cetera.  And it says:

 5             "In war or immediate threat of war, the Presidency of the

 6     Municipal Assembly takes over from the Council."

 7             So in war, this Council stops operating, and its role is taken

 8     over by the Presidency of the Municipal Assembly.

 9             Is it exactly as I read it?

10        A.   I believe this article was translated.  When we first saw this

11     document, there was an English translation.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we have one.

13             THE WITNESS:  It was not on my screen, so I didn't know.

14             Yes, the Municipal Assembly shall formulate the Presidency of the

15     Municipal Assembly.  It takes over, yes.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is that, yes, 68 and 69.  Presidency, not Municipal Assembly.

18        A.   "The Municipal Assemble shall form the Council."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then it's the wrong interpretation.

20             JUDGE KWON:  He's referring to the last sentence.

21             THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm referring to the first sentence:

22             "The Municipal Assembly shall form the council."

23             The last sentence says that the presidency takes over the

24     functions.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14804

 1        Q.   The last sentence says the Presidency takes over the duties;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Could we look at 69.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The Council consists of the president, a certain number of

 8     members, and the president of the Municipal Assembly is, ex officio,

 9     president of the Council.

10             Ms. Hanson, maybe I'm not so found of our laws, myself, but you

11     see that a municipality is a state, in a nutshell.  It has its president,

12     its commanders, and all the other posts.

13        A.   Yes.  Under the former Yugoslav system of self-management, the

14     municipals -- the municipalities had a great deal of autonomy, and here

15     we see, yes, their own commanders, the president of the

16     Municipal Assembly, and so on.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we see Article 80 to see what the duties and responsibilities

19     of the republic were.

20             "The republic ...," Article 80.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Could you cast a glance?  It regulates the system of

23     All People's Defence; regulates special rights and duties of working

24     people and citizens; establishes the main elements of assessing the level

25     of threat; plans the work of state authorities, and the work of state

Page 14805

 1     authorities is regulated differently in times of war.

 2             Was this the basis for forming a Crisis Staff in

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina without declaring a state of war or immediate

 4     threat of war?

 5        A.   You mean the Crisis Staff of the Presidency of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   I'd have to see that decision again to see if they cite

 9     Article 80, specifically, as the basis, but certainly the thrust of the

10     law gives them that kind of authority.  But, again, the law does not use

11     the term "crisis staffs," but it gives them, I guess, a great deal of

12     initiative to -- yeah, the organisation of work of state organs.

13             It's a little difficult, I'm sorry, to read this legal Serbian so

14     quickly and absorb it all.  But it seems to be in accordance with the

15     law, if not directly based on this law.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see Articles 84 and 85 to

17     see what the Presidency of the Republic is doing.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It says:

20             "The Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina organises and directs All People's Defence in war as well as

22     all forms of general resistance in the territory of the republic, in

23     keeping with the unity of armed struggle and general defence effort in

24     the country."

25             And then:

Page 14806

 1             "The Presidency of the SR BH, in war or in the event of immediate

 2     threat of war, at the proposal of the Executive Council ..."

 3             Can we see the next column:

 4             "... or at its own initiative, shall enact decrees, with the

 5     force of law, on issues pertaining to the jurisdiction of the Assembly.

 6     If the relevant councils are unable convene, the Presidency of the SR BH

 7     shall submit these decrees for ratification to the Assembly as soon as it

 8     is able to convene."

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not get the question.

10             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Was the Presidency of the Republika Srpska doing the same thing

13     as envisaged in Articles 84 and 85?  I did ask the question, but it was

14     not interpreted.

15        A.   Well, we do see the Assembly of the Serb People meeting, so it

16     was able to meet some of the time, at least.  But the Presidency of

17     Republika Srpska was, I would say, following the general guide-lines of

18     these laws.  I'm not a legal expert to sit down and compare these

19     provisions to actual acts of the Presidency.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Article 104, please, 104.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   "The Committee for All People's Defence and Social

23     Self-Protection of the Republic consists of the president and a certain

24     number of members.  The president of the Central Committee of the League

25     of Communists of Bosnia-Herzegovina is, ex officio, president of the

Page 14807

 1     Committee for All People's Defence and Social Self-Protection of the

 2     Republic."

 3             Is he performing this role by virtue of the fact that the

 4     League of Communists is in power?

 5        A.   Yes, in the one-party state, it was quite clear which party was

 6     in power.  So the president of the Central Committee is, ex officio --

 7     the president of the Central Committee of the League of Communists is,

 8     ex officio, president of this committee, because it was essentially a

 9     one-party state.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at Article 109.  It's

11     on this page.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   "In the area of two or more municipalities, regional staffs of

14     territorial defence shall be formed and be responsible for organising and

15     preparing units and staffs of territorial defence in the area of these

16     municipalities."

17             Do you agree that municipalities have the right and duty to join

18     forces in order to build up their defence capability?

19        A.   Yes, the legal municipalities have that right.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Article 120, please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Does it say that commanders of territorial defence and commanders

23     of units and institutions of territorial defence, in exercising rights

24     and duties from their purview, may adopt -- may issue orders,

25     instructions, rule books, compulsory instructions, and other documents of

Page 14808

 1     control and command?

 2        A.   It says:  "The commander of the territorial defence of the

 3     republic."  And, yes, Bosnia, as a republic, had a territorial defence

 4     structure.  And, yes, it says that it has the right to do these things

 5     that you say, that are listed here.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You were interpreting Article 121, but please look at

 7     Article 120.  The same rights belong to commanders and commanding

 8     officers of units?

 9        A.   Yes, of the Territorial Defence.  Yes, commanders and officers of

10     the units of the Territorial Defence have those rights and duties.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see Article 207.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   207 speaks of:

14             "Evacuation in war or in the event of immediate threat of war and

15     other emergencies, evacuation of people and property may be organised and

16     conducted from cities and other affected areas, in keeping with the

17     defence plan of the republic.  Municipalities, in keeping with the

18     assessed level of risk, may determine that populations should be

19     evacuated."

20             Do you see that this is grounds -- this is a basis for evacuating

21     population at risk?

22        A.   Yes.  Municipalities, in accordance with the republic -- defence

23     plan of the republic, can evacuate population.

24        Q.   Municipalities, in keeping with their own estimate, their

25     estimate of the level of risk?

Page 14809

 1        A.   Yes, municipalities can make their own estimate of the level of

 2     risk and evacuate -- evacuate population from the threatened parts of the

 3     municipal territory.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now see Article --

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you know that this law has punitive provisions?  This law

 8     stipulates the existence of courts of honour and other sanctions.

 9             Can we see Article 402.

10        A.   I don't know -- I'm not specifically familiar with the punitive

11     provision.  I'm not surprised to learn that the law has such provisions.

12        Q.   Did you study the whole law - you've read it now - as a basis for

13     conducting war?

14        A.   No, I did not read the entire law.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So beginning with Article 402,

16     until the end, are punitive provisions for certain actions and omissions.

17             Can we see Article 124 to see that there also existed courts of

18     honour.  Sorry, Article 324.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Does it say "courts of honour," and several articles govern these

21     courts of honour, beginning with 324 until 325, that these articles

22     govern the courts of honour?  Did you know about that?

23        A.   I see that it says that here.  I don't think I read this section

24     in detail.  I think I was just looking for sections relative to

25     municipalities, but I see it here now.

Page 14810

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will tender this into evidence.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Ms. Hanson, in one paragraph, paragraph 147, you say the

 4     Presidency was mixed up in the movements of population.  Except in the

 5     evacuation of population from Vecici village, do you have evidence that

 6     the president, or the Presidency, or the government at the central level,

 7     was involved in any evacuation or any expulsion of the population?  Do

 8     you have evidence, a document, to prove that, or does your Article 147

 9     refer only to the case of Kotor Varos, because you connect this paragraph

10     to Kotor Varos?

11        A.   That quotation that I cite certainly applies only to Kotor Varos.

12     I -- that is the only explicit reference I have to the Presidency being

13     involved.  The other involvement is through the links -- the reporting,

14     the links from the municipal to the republic level, and in reverse, via

15     the commissioners, and other orders and other documents we see, but that

16     is -- that quotation there refers only to Kotor Varos and only to the

17     case of Vecici.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             I can see the clock.  If I cannot get any more time on Friday, I

20     have to thank the witness, but I'm asking you again to give me the whole

21     day of Friday, or at least one session.  We must note, again with regret,

22     that several expert witnesses of the Prosecution remained unexamined.

23             And I would also like to have this law translated in its entirety

24     and admitted.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 14811

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, on an exceptional basis, the Chamber

 2     has decided to give you one hour more on Friday.

 3             And we'll admit this, but we'll mark this for identification,

 4     pending translation.

 5             Ms. Sutherland, you agree that this document has to be translated

 6     in its entirety, the law?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would have just said the articles

 8     that Dr. Karadzic -- Mr. Karadzic took the witness to.  But it depends.

 9     We'll add up how many they are, and if it's --

10             JUDGE KWON:  It's about 45 -- [Overlapping speakers].

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Then we might as well get the whole document

12     translated.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we admit it in its entirety, and let's

14     have it be translated.  We give the number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D1359.

16             And, for the record, 65 ter 03719 will be D1358, and not D1351.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Tomorrow, we are not sitting because of the plenary.  So,

19     Ms. Hanson, as usual, please do not make any contact with any other

20     people or to discuss about your evidence.

21             Friday, 9.00.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you for the

23     additional time.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.34 p.m.,

Page 14812

 1                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 17th day of June,

 2                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.