Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15574

 1                           Wednesday, 29 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             There is a ruling the Chamber wishes to issue at this stage.

 7             On 14th of June, 2011, the Chamber ordered the Prosecution to

 8     file public redacted versions of six witness statements which had been

 9     previously admitted under seal by the Chamber pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

10             On 27th of June, 2011, the Prosecution filed a notification of

11     compliance with the Trial Chamber's order in relation to witness

12     statements admitted pursuant to Rule 92 bis, requesting the Chamber to

13     admit into evidence the public redacted version of the witness

14     statements, which have now been up-loaded into e-court and bear 65 ter

15     numbers 08874A, 12138A, 90137A, 90138A, 90139A and 90140A.

16             The Chamber has reviewed these six documents and will admit them

17     into evidence.  The Chamber, therefore, requests the Registry to assign

18     exhibit numbers to these documents.

19             Unless there's any matter to deal with in the absence of the

20     witness, let's bring in the witness.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I just wanted to alert the Chamber

22     and the parties that the next witness, there's an outstanding motion for

23     disclosure of ex parte materials concerning the protective measures, and

24     we would like to have that material before the beginning of the

25     cross-examination of the next witness, if we are to receive that

Page 15575

 1     material.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           WITNESS:  MILORAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, do we have the response to that motion

 8     referred to by Mr. Robinson?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  You should have received it

10     yesterday afternoon.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  I'll check it after this session.

12             Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your

15     cross-examination.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to everyone.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   After everything we looked at yesterday, you also had problems

23     with the law and with the police; is that correct?

24        A.   I don't know when or where.  I didn't have any problems.  I don't

25     remember.

Page 15576

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D3639.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 3        Q.   Were you interviewed on the 22nd of July, 1994, at the MUP of the

 4     Republic of Serbia?  Was this interview conducted with you by the police

 5     because, as we can see in the first paragraph -- can we please see the

 6     next page, page 3 in English -- because this person whom you took from

 7     Bijeljina to Belgrade had a forged personal identification card with him?

 8     The fact that Edib owned a falsified ID --

 9             [In English] "Edib owned a falsified ..."

10             [Interpretation] And here in Serbian, you can see the fact that

11     Edib owned a falsified ID card in the name of Zoran Jovanovic, and so on

12     and so forth, "I didn't know."

13             Was this interview conducted with you at the Serbian police?

14        A.   Yes, they conducted an interview with me at the Serbian police

15     because Edib was in my apartment.  I had brought him from the hospital in

16     Bijeljina, or, rather, from Lopare, where he was accommodated when he was

17     taken from the veterinary station in Bijeljina.  He was a veterinary

18     [as interpreted], himself, and he was accommodated at the dressing room

19     of the Lopare Football Club.  And through some connections, I took him

20     out of there, I put him in a car and I brought him to Belgrade.  I took

21     him for treatment to the Military Medical Academy, where he stayed for a

22     while because he had serious injures of his kidneys and other injuries

23     that he had sustained because he was hit.  He also had a hematoma.  The

24     police which came to check if he was there, brought him in and then found

25     a forged personal ID card on him.  I didn't know this and I wasn't

Page 15577

 1     interested in it.  He probably wanted to have something just in case his

 2     ID was checked so that he wouldn't be identified as a Muslim, and that

 3     was probably the reason he had this on him.  This is what he told me

 4     later on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we please have this admitted?

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, could you tell us how this is relevant

 9     to your case?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness was a policeman with

11     the Federal SUP, and his colleagues called him to have an interview with

12     him because he had a man with a forged ID and who had entered Serbia

13     illegally.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but how is this relevant, either in relation to

15     your case or in relation to the evidence given in his

16     examination-in-chief?

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The Prosecution would not have any

20     objections to this because it actually confirms the evidence that the

21     witness has given.  So that would be the relevance, as the Prosecution

22     would see it.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have established that this

25     witness was dismissed from the police, that the police often had

Page 15578

 1     suspicions against him, that he was often questioned, and that he was

 2     sent away from Bijeljina because he over-stepped his authority.  And this

 3     creates a full picture of this witness, not just from the point of view

 4     of credibility, but, generally speaking, it shows that he is not fit to

 5     be a witness.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1406, Your Honours.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say something?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, briefly, Mr. Davidovic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything that Mr. Karadzic says

11     is completely untrue, and it has nothing to do with reality.  I was

12     officially retired.  I did not have any problems.  It's normal that the

13     service should take information from me about circumstances connected

14     with Edib.  I'm proud that I was in a situation to help this man and

15     other people.  I'm not ashamed of that at any moment.  On the contrary,

16     this confirms that whatever I say is the truth.  And I was not dismissed

17     from service.  I was retired with all the entitlements that are due to

18     any member of the Federal Ministry of the Interior.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You were sent away from Bijeljina, Mr. Davidovic, from Bijeljina?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Now you can answer the question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a different subject.  I

23     completed my mandate when the SDS and the SDA had me replaced.  That is

24     to say, two other persons were assigned to my position in Bijeljina,

25     according to a decision, because they belonged to the party, first, of

Page 15579

 1     the chief, Predrag Jesuric, and then he replaced me.  And the other

 2     position of commander was for the SDA.  A teacher was appointed to that

 3     position.  I didn't know him at all.  I was not thrown away, but I was

 4     sent on holiday and I needed to wait for my new assignment.  And in the

 5     meantime, this was finished even before I was in a situation to be

 6     replaced, I received an offer to be transferred to the Federal SUP.  I

 7     communicated with them.  They said they approved of my transfer.  And

 8     when I was thrown out from Bijeljina, as you say, then there was an

 9     Assembly decision.  When I got there in 1992 and when I did what I did,

10     that is to say, I disarmed paramilitaries, because the first thing I did

11     when I came to Bijeljina, I arrested members of Arkan's units or they

12     fled from Bijeljina, to the last man.  Later on, I found a group of five

13     of them in a house.  They were looting during the night in Bijeljina.

14             Later on, when I arrested the murderers of Salko Hukic, and when

15     the curfew was imposed by the command and the corps commander,

16     Colonel Ilic, then, during the night, we arrested Mauzer and brought him

17     to the SUP.  And after that, there was hue and cry after me.  They said

18     that I was a Communist, that I had come there to arrest people again and

19     to re-institute the old regime.  And then there was a request that

20     proceedings be initiated against me before the Assembly and that I should

21     be sent away from the territory of the municipality.  But the decision

22     was not carried out because I continued working in Brcko after that, and

23     then in Zvornik, and then once again in Bijeljina.  And the decision that

24     was made just confirms that when I came there, I worked in accordance

25     with the law, rightfully, and that the Crisis Staff didn't like me, and

Page 15580

 1     so did the others who were doing improper things.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, what you described, you were commended for what

 4     you did, and you were confirmed both by the representatives of the

 5     government, I mean the Miskin one who came from Pale to commend you, and

 6     also the deputies and other imminent people from Bijeljina.  In 1992, you

 7     were thrown away when you over-stepped your authority and when you did

 8     things which were outside of the law.  This is what I'm talking about.

 9             And for what you now describe, weren't you commended and

10     confirmed for that?

11        A.   At the Assembly meeting, Jovo Miskin was present, and throughout

12     the time he was there with me, and he was informed about everything that

13     was happening.  At that Assembly meeting, he spoke several times about

14     the measures I took and what I was doing in order to prevent the

15     mistreatment of Muslims and everything else that had been happening up to

16     my arrival.  Except in addition to Jovo Miskin and what he said, and what

17     other deputies said, the majority of the SDS members voted for a decision

18     requesting that I should be expelled from the Bijeljina territory.

19             Savo Kujic, who was the SDS secretary at the time, even requested

20     that I should be prohibited from coming to Bijeljina.  However, I'm not

21     sure if the decision was adopted.

22             Everything that they requested could not affect me, nor could

23     they make a decision to dismiss me.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Davidovic, to cut a long story short, Jovo Miskin

25     is a government representative who had come from Pale, was supporting you

Page 15581

 1     all along; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What you were doing, that is to say, you arrested paramilitaries

 4     and criminals, is something you did on the order of Momo, who -- of me.

 5     I was the president of the SDS and the president of the republic.

 6        A.   It was at the orders of Mico Stanisic.  Whether you informed

 7     Mico Stanisic about that, I don't know, but Mico Stanisic told me that we

 8     should come to help with disarming the paramilitaries.

 9        Q.   Please have the last paragraph of this statement which you gave

10     to the Serbian MUP:

11             "Bearing in mind ..."

12             This is the last paragraph we see on the English page.

13             "Bearing in mind that ..."

14             We can see it there in English, we can start:

15             "Bearing in mind that between April and September 1992, at the

16     order of the Republika Srpska leadership, I participated in the

17     identification and capture of Serbian war criminals and the disarming of

18     various Serbian paramilitary formations, and the fact that since 1992, I

19     have been receiving frequent threats from members of these groups, I

20     conclude that this was provocation ..."

21             And so on and so forth.

22             So didn't you clearly confirm to them here that you were aware

23     that the leadership of Republika Srpska requested you to make these

24     arrests and to disarm the paramilitaries?

25        A.   I never said anything else.  You and Mico Stanisic and his

Page 15582

 1     deputy, they are the leaders.  They are the leadership of the Ministry of

 2     the Interior.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 149 of your statement, you said:

 4             "After I left Bijeljina in August 1992, the SDS reorganised

 5     itself, and new people were appointed ..."

 6             And so on and so forth.

 7             Let us establish, when did you leave Bijeljina?  The first line

 8     and the first sentence of paragraph 149 is what I referred to.

 9        A.   I left Bijeljina sometime in the second half of July, I think, or

10     in mid-July.

11        Q.   You were not in Bijeljina in September; correct?

12        A.   No, I was in Pljevlja.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please have a look at paragraph 150.  You say

14     that after these new people were appointed, they made a plan for the

15     ethnic cleansing of Muslims, those that remained in Bijeljina, Lopare and

16     Zvornik.  There were still around 17.000 Muslims in Bijeljina and 12.000

17     Muslims in Janja:

18             "This plan was discussed in front of me in the corridor of the

19     Executive Council offices."

20             So after you had left, the SDS was consolidated, and the new

21     leadership made a plan and discussed about it in front of you, even

22     though you had left.  How do you explain that?

23        A.   Firstly, I talked about the changes that happened after I had

24     left and that there was new leadership in Bijeljina who were appointed to

25     specific positions at the Bijeljina MUP.  When you say that I was

Page 15583

 1     present, what I had in mind and what I said was that I was present at the

 2     Crisis Staff or the particular council which made decisions and reviewed

 3     the security situation while I was in Bijeljina, and I was personally

 4     present when they adopted the plan which concerned the way they would

 5     work and how they should move out Muslims from Bijeljina.

 6             I remember well the decision in which they requested, as the

 7     first item --

 8        Q.   Wait, wait.  We'll reach that.  Did the Crisis Staff exist in

 9     Bijeljina while you were there?

10        A.   It did.  The chief of the Crisis Staff was Mauzer.

11        Q.   The Municipal Crisis Staff?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you report this, which you heard, to anyone?

14        A.   I informed the federal minister in writing about that, because

15     hey sent me to this area.  I had also told Mico Stanisic about this.

16        Q.   Do we have this report of yours?

17        A.   I don't know.  I did not have a chance to see it.  No one offered

18     it to me.

19        Q.   And then here in paragraph 50, you list quite a number of men

20     who, in your view, made these plans for ethnic cleansing of Bijeljina, in

21     which in August or after August, there were still 17.000 Muslims, as well

22     as 12.000 Muslims in Janja.  And then you said that Moco Stankovic made a

23     list, and after that this was carried out via Mauzer and the

24     Security Service.  You say that the leadership of Bijeljina made a list

25     of Muslims who should be expelled and that this was carried out through

Page 15584

 1     Mauzer and the Security Service; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  But in order to clarify this, you have to allow me to tell

 3     you what was the reason for making such lists.

 4             As soon as the Serbian Democratic --

 5        Q.   Please, you said all that in your statements.  I want to clarify

 6     what I'm interested in.  I'm leading the cross-examination now.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, do you have your statement in front

 8     of you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And you must have referred to 150, not 50.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 150, yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Further on, you say that Drago Vukovic was a member of the

16     Crisis Staff and the chief of the Security Service and the

17     Public Security Station; correct?

18        A.   Yes, State Security.

19        Q.   And then you say how a family was killed.  This is item 151.

20     First of all, the plan which was made and carried out through Mauzer and

21     the Security Services, was that something you reported to anyone?

22        A.   No, I didn't.  Who could I report that to?  To those who were

23     doing this and making the lists?  Who can you report it to?  This was

24     information which I submitted to my minister about the entire situation.

25        Q.   Does not the police report this to the judiciary?

Page 15585

 1        A.   Wherever I found that there was some illegal act committed in

 2     Bijeljina, I would submit a criminal report, and there is -- there are

 3     records about this.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   This was happening after I had left Bijeljina and when the SUP

 6     was consolidated because they wanted to prevent the continuing peace in

 7     Bijeljina; namely, when I got there and when Muslims were not taken away

 8     anymore, when there was no more looting and killings.

 9        Q.   So they wanted to make chaos in their own house; correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's right, precisely.  That was the goal.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Further on, you say that a family was killed --

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  The interpreters are having a terribly difficult

13     task.  Neither of you are leaving any breaks between questions and

14     answers.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You say that then a Muslim family was killed, and that's

18     paragraph 151:

19             "On the opposite side of town, another family of 18 were killed."

20             You also say this was done by Dusko Malovic's group.  They killed

21     a family of 18 from Bijeljina.  He gave the orders to his men to do the

22     killings; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you have any evidence of this?

25        A.   When I returned from Pljevlja in October, I was at Bosanska Villa

Page 15586

 1     together with Dusko Malovic because a meeting was supposed to be held

 2     there.  Before the meeting, I had a chance to sit next to Dusko and ask

 3     him, Dusko, what happened in Bijeljina, who murdered that family, the

 4     Sarajlic family?  And he said, Don't ask me anything about that.  It was

 5     done at the request of the Security Service and their chief,

 6     Drago Vukovic.  He personally told me that, and I stated that here at the

 7     Tribunal and also at the service where I worked, this information I

 8     learned.

 9        Q.   Did you arrest him or report him because he was in Belgrade, in

10     Serbia, at the time, and you were working for the Federal SUP?

11        A.   No, I didn't arrest him, and I couldn't report him to SUP because

12     the event took place in Bijeljina and he was in Belgrade all this time.

13     And when this happened, Dusko Malovic was not in Bijeljina, but rather in

14     Belgrade.  He told me that his unit had done that.

15        Q.   Uh-huh.  And when did you talk to him?

16        A.   It was at some point in October.

17        Q.   Please have a look at the last two sentences of paragraph 151.

18     The killings occurred in late September 1992.  It was common knowledge

19     that Malovic was responsible; correct?

20        A.   Yes.  Everyone in Bijeljina was saying at the time that they saw

21     members of his group, because they wore a typical uniform and they were

22     easy to recognise because of that.  Everyone said that Dusko Malovic's

23     men had done that.  But I was not in Bijeljina at the time, and I didn't

24     know that, nor could I inquire about details.  The first information I

25     reached was from Dusko in Belgrade once I had returned from Pljevlja.

Page 15587

 1        Q.   Look at paragraph 152.  You say Malovic and his men also killed

 2     another family of three a few days in Bijeljina; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   What are the last names of these families; Sarajlic?

 5        A.   The one family, Sarajlic, and the other one is Sejmenovic, I

 6     think.

 7        Q.   And third one is Malagic?

 8        A.   Possibly Malagic.  I cannot remember all the names exactly.  But

 9     it was Sarajlic.  I know them very well.

10        Q.   Thank you.  During another questioning, you said that you don't

11     know anything about that; right?

12        A.   I don't understand what you're saying.  What do you mean, I don't

13     know anything?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the number that

15     Mr. Karadzic referred to.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3143 -- 3643.  3643.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did the Prosecutor's Office of Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the

19     14th of January, 2008, question you about these incidents?

20             Can we have an answer?

21        A.   Never in my life did I give a statement to the Office of the

22     Prosecutor of the BH, nor do I know of this statement.  And I would like

23     to see whether there's a signature of mine on this document.

24        Q.   Let us see what it says here:

25             "On the 10th of January, 2008, in accordance with an agreement

Page 15588

 1     reached with Prosecutor Bozidarka Dodik, I conducted an interview with

 2     Milorad Davidovic, nicknamed Mico, born" et cetera, et cetera, "who

 3     according to certain information at the time of the disappearance of the

 4     families Sejmenovic, Sarajlic and Malagic, who was in Bijeljina as a

 5     member of the federal SUP."

 6             The transcript is full of shortcomings, and I'm sure that I'm to

 7     be blamed.  This is what it says:

 8             "According to some information received when the families of

 9     Sejmenovic, Sarajlic and Malagic disappeared, he was in Bijeljina as a

10     member of the Federal SUP."

11        A.   This person allegedly had an interview with me about all these

12     things that are mentioned here.  At the moment these families were

13     killed, Sejmenovic, Sarajlic and Malagic, I was not in Bijeljina.  I had

14     left Bijeljina and went to Pljevlja.  And the person who wrote up this

15     note, saying that he or she had interviewed me, I do not recall this.  It

16     must have been an informal conversation.  I probably didn't even want to

17     go into any details.  And it's not that I focused on what was actually

18     happening at the time.  I don't know who this person is, so why would I

19     have this kind of discussion?

20             Also, this detail that says that I was chief of the Public

21     Security Station in Bijeljina, I think that has nothing to do with the

22     time when I was there.  So this doesn't make any sense, but, well,

23     anybody can write up whatever they thought they learned as the member of

24     a department or a service.

25        Q.   Thank you.  It doesn't say here that you were chief.  It says

Page 15589

 1     here that as a member of the Federal SUP, you were in Bijeljina at the

 2     time.

 3             Can we now have page 2.

 4             Look at paragraph 3:

 5             "Specifically as regards the perpetrators of the crime against

 6     the members of the Sejmenovic, Sarajlic and Malagic families, he does not

 7     know anything, except that retired policeman Miladin Vasilic knows more

 8     about that ..."

 9             And so on and so forth.

10             Is that what you said?

11        A.   I did say that, and I say that once again.  I cannot speak about

12     what happened at the moment when the crime was committed, because I

13     wasn't there at the time, but I did say that this policeman,

14     Miladin Vasilic, should be interviewed because he was working at the time

15     and he knew more about this.  I think I said that and that it was

16     recorded here.

17        Q.   Boze Bagaric is the investigator on the next page.  So can we

18     have the next page, please.  And the prosecutor who ordered this

19     interview is Bozidarka Dodik.  We saw that on the first page, but can we

20     see the last page.

21             Sorry, while we're on this page anyway, you say that some person,

22     Stevanovic, was part of my personal detail.  You say that allegedly, in

23     all fairness.

24        A.   I don't see where it says that.

25        Q.   It's underlined.  Did you say that this person, Laura, was a

Page 15590

 1     security man of mine?

 2        A.   I have never heard of this man.

 3        Q.   You proposed here a second stage of the investigation plan and

 4     who they should talk to.

 5             And can we have the last page now just to see who the signatory

 6     is.

 7             Investigator Boze Bagaric; correct?

 8        A.   [No audible response]

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Did you answer the question asked by the accused?

11     Mr. Davidovic, do you remember talking to or being interviewed by this

12     investigator, Boze Bagaric?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that some person - I

14     don't know his name - came, and my impression was that this was not

15     official, that this was an informal conversation, because this was a

16     colleague who used to work in the service and we knew each other from

17     earlier on.  When I talked to him, I suggested to him that, among others,

18     he talk to some people who were still in the service, like Vasilic, who

19     was still in the service, the chief of the Public Security Service in

20     Bijeljina, and that they try to talk to people who were closer to the

21     actual events to see how it happened, how come these crimes were

22     committed.  He wrote this up as a note, and I cannot remember some of

23     these things that he mentions here.  But I really do not see anything

24     controversial in this official note.  Quite simply, he is providing

25     information that was important to him, that was of interest to him.  I am

Page 15591

 1     suggesting to him what should be done, and I'm saying that I'm not aware

 2     of any details of what was going on, that I was not there.  But I know

 3     full well that this family was killed, and I know what the reason was; to

 4     create this atmosphere of fear, and hopelessness, and everything else

 5     that was happening in Bijeljina before I went.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I think we have a basis.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No objection, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be admitted.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1407, Your Honours.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   A few times you mentioned Mr. Drago Vukovic --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We'll mark it for identification,

13     pending translation.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we do have a translation, and

15     it's -- maybe Mr. Karadzic made a mistake.  According to the binder that

16     I have, it is under 3642, and it's with a translation.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter, whereas I had a 1D number.

18     Thank you.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We'll send the translation.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then that had been admitted in full.

21             Yes, let's proceed.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You mentioned Drago Vukovic, head of the National Security

24     Service.  Through this service, evacuations were carried out, or

25     expulsions, and let's see what Mr. Vukovic says about that.

Page 15592

 1             Before that, let me ask you:  Do you know that after Dayton,

 2     every public official had to go through very thorough clearance by the

 3     international community?

 4        A.   Yes, I know that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that Mr. Drago Vukovic was, in the

 6     post-Dayton period, an adviser in the Joint Presidency of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina?

 8        A.   Yes, I know that very well.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we have 1D3637.  This is the statement that was given by

11     Mr. Drago Vukovic in 2005.

12             And could we please have page 2 now.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You see what he says here.  Everyone can see it.  I don't need to

15     read it.  So he claims that we did not have any lists whatsoever,

16     especially not lists of rich Muslims.  And then he says further on that

17     there were no organised expulsions of non-Serbs, and that many people,

18     some of them highly-respectable citizens, led a normal life, some of them

19     were members of the Army of Republika Srpska, and the majority Muslim

20     population in Janja lived an absolutely normal life all the way up to

21     1994.  It was that year that a large number of Muslims voluntarily left

22     Janja and went to third countries.  After the armed conflict, to the

23     present day, most of them returned to their original place of residence.

24     Do you know that?

25        A.   I know part of this, but I have to explain.

Page 15593

 1        Q.   Please don't explain anything.  Do you know this?

 2        A.   I know it --

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  He should be allowed to explain.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Of course, of course.

 5             Please go on -- carry on, Mr. Davidovic.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No matter how hard I try to respond

 7     to Mr. Karadzic's questions, he doesn't allow me to do that.  He just

 8     says, Tell me whether you know or not.  Drago Vukovic wrote up a

 9     statement in which he says, inter alia, that it was peaceful in Bijeljina

10     and that there were no lists.  So who took these Muslims away, on the

11     basis of what?  How come they conducted the selection as to who was

12     supposed to leave and who was not supposed to leave?  Why did he not

13     mention some of these highly-respectable citizens who stayed in

14     Bijeljina?  Out of 25.000 Muslims, only 5.000 remained in Bijeljina.

15     Where are these Muslims?  How were they brought together, how were they

16     taken away?  I know for sure, and I can confirm that, that Drago Vukovic

17     was present during the night when families were being taken away, even

18     people who were screaming on trucks, saying, Drago, please, give me some

19     water.  He just kept silent, and he pretended not to know these people

20     and simply didn't want to intervene.

21             Now, were there any lists?  Yes, there were lists.  They were

22     made by local leaders of the SDS.  And according to these lists, locally

23     made, people were taken away.  Some people managed to purchase their

24     freedom.  Others did not.

25             So why did they voluntarily leave Janja in 1994, as Drago Vukovic

Page 15594

 1     said?  How did that happen all of a sudden?

 2        Q.   We've been given an explanation of that.  Let me just ask you

 3     now, Mr. Davidovic:  Since they left, there must have been some lists.

 4     This conclusion of yours, that there were lists, do you draw that on the

 5     fact that some persons left Bijeljina and Janja?

 6        A.   I had an opportunity of seeing a great many people who

 7     forcibly --

 8        Q.   I am asking you whether that is the conclusion you draw.  You

 9     said [indiscernible] just now.  Of course there must have been a lists,

10     where are these people otherwise?  Is this by way of an analogy that you

11     are drawing this conclusion that there must have been a list because some

12     people left?

13        A.   Look, a list did exist because the Muslims themselves knew that

14     they were on some kind of list.  So for example, they went to see

15     Moco Stankovic or some other prominent individuals in Bijeljina and they

16     asked to be taken off these lists.  And I had opportunity of seeing these

17     lists.

18             JUDGE KWON:  In order for us to have a transcript, you have to

19     slow down and put a pause between the question and answer.  It's simply

20     impossible.

21             Mr. Davidovic, could you repeat your answer?  Nothing has been

22     noted after you said:  "Well, look ..."

23             Please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim, with full responsibility

25     and certainty, that the lists that were made in Bijeljina were made by

Page 15595

 1     the chiefs of the local SDS branches, and they were provided to the

 2     central service of Drago Vukovic, or someone else, who had these lists,

 3     or Vojkan Djurkovic, since I know that these lists existed, because some

 4     persons who were on these lists told me that they were on these lists,

 5     and then by resorting to financial resources, they managed to get their

 6     names off these lists.  And some were not taken away because they

 7     managed, through these local officials in the local commune, to be able

 8     not to be taken away.  And then in 1993 and 1994, people were gathered

 9     en masse and taken away, but I'm talking about the initial period when

10     the Crisis Staff and the SDS started functioning.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, in this statement, paragraph 150 something -- 150

13     or 51, didn't you say it was done through the Security Service and

14     Mauzer?  Now you say that Drago Vukovic and the National Security Service

15     instrumentalised Vojkan.  So what do you stand by?

16        A.   I stand by what I said earlier on.  Lists were made, and they

17     were provided to certain persons.  I think they were provided to

18     Drago Vukovic and Mauzer, who was head of the Crisis Staff in Bijeljina,

19     who knew all about this and was taking care of all this.  And this list

20     and the names of persons who should be taken away are provided to

21     Vojkan Djurkovic by someone, Vojkan Djurkovic who is the one who actually

22     does this on the ground, corralled all the Muslims in Bijeljina.  In the

23     beginning, in 1992, and later on, these lists were not even necessary

24     because Muslims were being taken away.

25        Q.   You say "I think"?

Page 15596

 1        A.   I claim.  I claim.

 2        Q.   Here in line 5, you say:

 3             "I think they were provided to Drago Vukovic."

 4             Right?

 5        A.   Sir, what I'm saying, I'm saying based on facts that I heard.  I

 6     visited Drago Vukovic in his office.  I saw other people as well.  I had

 7     the opportunity of seeing the lists and many other things that nobody

 8     ever asked me about or is recorded in a statement.  I had occasion to see

 9     many things.  There's no reason for me to think one thing and say

10     another.

11        Q.   Look at 152, the end of 152, where you claim there was a plan to

12     liquidate a group of Muslims, et cetera, et cetera.  You say:

13             "Through a public statement of Mirko Blagojevic, it was announced

14     on all the radios."

15             And then you say:

16             "After that incident, the MUP of Republika Srpska issued a

17     statement signed by Mr. Tomo Kovac, condemning that crime.  It is not

18     true that in those critical days, I used to see Dusko Malovic, who spent

19     most of his time in Belgrade.  On the day in question, I was not in

20     Bijeljina .  This is a perfidious lie by Prosecution witnesses, and

21     Dusko Malovic is no longer alive to say otherwise."

22             Is it true that he was killed?

23        A.   I think he was killed in 1993.  I'm not sure.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the question you just

Page 15597

 1     asked --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Davidovic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You say Drago Vukovic has nothing

 4     to do with it.  He was a person who worked in the Security Service, and

 5     that he knows Dusko Malovic, and says that the latter spent most of his

 6     time in Belgrade.  I know that he spent his time with Mico Stanisic and

 7     was accountable to him.  But whenever Dusko -- but whenever

 8     Minister Mico Stanisic visited, Dusko made contact with him, and he

 9     talked to all of them.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What's going to be the fate of this

11     document?

12             JUDGE KWON:  When asked about this statement of Mr. Vukovic, you

13     said:

14             "I know part of this, but I have to explain."

15             When you say you knew part of this, what did you mean?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the killings of these

17     people or you mean the conversation with Dusko Malovic?

18             JUDGE KWON:  No, the statement of Vukovic, what he stated in this

19     statement.  What you meant is that you knew the incident or you knew --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I don't think we have any basis to admit

22     this document, Mr. Karadzic.

23             Yes.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, also objection from the

25     Prosecution side, because this is --

Page 15598

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That's what I said, that I would not admit it, so

 2     your assistance is not necessary.  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D3670.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a record of witness interview, the witness being

 6     Momcilo Djilas, regarding the murder of Sarajlic, Sejmenovic and Malagic

 7     families on 24th/25th September 1992.

 8             Can we see page 3.  It seems to be the second page in English.

 9     Page 2 in English.  No, no, sorry, page 4 in English.

10             Please look at the last fifth in Serbian:

11             "I did not inquire any further into this incident because at that

12     time it was very dangerous to inquire about such incidents.  I emphasise

13     this because at that time in the area of Bijeljina, there were special

14     police units."

15             It's page 5 in English.

16             "... special police units, and I remember, in particular, members

17     of such police who were natives of Sokolac and who had characteristic

18     camouflage, black-and-white uniforms.  I remember them because we police

19     officers were in awe of them and we feared them all.  We had to stand

20     still even when they were just passing by us.  I know they were

21     subordinated to Dragan Andan and Mico Davidovic, and they did whatever

22     they pleased in Bijeljina.  On one occasion, there was a lineup of all

23     members of active-duty and reserve policemen from Bijeljina ..."

24             Can we have the next page in Serbian.

25             "... on the street that connects the CSB and the traffic police.

Page 15599

 1     After we were lined up, Dragan Andan read out some sort of dispatch

 2     requesting assistance in Ugljevik because Muslims had allegedly almost

 3     taken control of Ugljevik.  Then Andan said that those who don't want to

 4     go to the front-line should go to the barracks."

 5             And then further down, it says:

 6             "I emphasise that during the police line-up, Mico Davidovic was

 7     present.  While we were standing, lined up, members of the Special Police

 8     Unit yelled from windows, calling us cowards and other names.  I noted

 9     this incident especially because I know Andan and Davidovic gave orders

10     to this Special Police Unit, their superiors.  I also want to say that I

11     am prepared to repeat this in court and to confront all those people who

12     held back or lied about certain events."

13             So this police officer, Momcilo Djilas, gave a statement in 2006

14     in Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Agency for Protection and Investigations,

15     and he says you were in Bijeljina in September, that you were the

16     commander of that special unit, that regular policemen were in fear of

17     you, and that you were present at this line-up.  Is this correct?

18        A.   I have to explain this.

19             When I came to Bijeljina and when the Republic MUP assigned me --

20     assigned Dragan Andan to be a co-ordinator between me and the federal

21     ministry, I did not know the unit of Dusko Malovic and they were not in

22     Bijeljina.  That unit came 10 days later and made their headquarters in

23     the SUP of Bijeljina.  The orders on their arrival and accommodation was

24     issued by Mico Stanisic.  This unit, which had its deputies and

25     assistants, was subordinated only to Mico Stanisic.  Dusko even told me

Page 15600

 1     that I have no right to command that unit, they have their own superiors,

 2     I have nothing to do with them, and they have completely different

 3     missions.

 4             As far as I know, and you can ask Dragan, who, by the way,

 5     already testified about this, and you will find out that I had no need of

 6     such a unit.  I didn't need them for any operation because that unit had

 7     very heavy weaponry, and, as such, I did not need them, I did not need

 8     them with me.  That's one thing.

 9             And the second thing about this line-up, I have to tell you the

10     details.

11             Considering that in the SUP of Bijeljina, in the Security Centre,

12     there were over 1300 reserve policemen, everyone who wanted to keep away

13     from the front-line, everybody who didn't want to be mobilised into the

14     army, took refuge in the reserve police; that is, sons, rich tradesmen,

15     people who were city people, who didn't want to go to the front-line.  On

16     one day, we decided to check how prepared they really were to be engaged

17     somewhere actively, if necessary, and we made this test order, a fake

18     order, saying that there was shooting in Majevica and that volunteers

19     were necessary to go to the front-line to defend it.

20             Out of a thousand men lined up there, the entire MUP came out

21     into this street, 150 men only stepped out, 100 of them being regular

22     policemen whose superior I was.  Everyone else tried to skivvy and to

23     avoid going to the front-line.  And I told them then to leave their

24     weapons, not to carry their weapons through town, and I said the entire

25     unit, 800 men, should be given to the corps, and the others should not

Page 15601

 1     remain on the reserve police force because they were not necessary.  And

 2     then chaos started.  People cried, begged, but we remained firm that

 3     nobody can be amnestied from this.  They were assigned to be on standby

 4     for defence efforts, not reserve police officers.

 5             And when I left in the second half of July, a good part of these

 6     reserve policemen returned, because I already told you who these were;

 7     people who had money; that is, sons, children of public officials, people

 8     who didn't want to go to the front-line.

 9        Q.   So this line-up took place in September.  Now you told us that

10     you left Bijeljina in the second half of July, but you were in Bijeljina

11     in September, because this policeman was mobilised into the reserve

12     police force only in September, and only after that mobilisation was he

13     part of this lineup.

14        A.   That's not correct.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  At least according to the translation that

18     we have, the witness Djilas was speaking of September 1991 and not 1992.

19     But there may be a mistake in the translation.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you clarify, Mr. Davidovic?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That could not have happened in

22     September of that year.  That was in early July 1992.  And at the end of

23     the day, there are documents at the SUP, when policemen were assigned to

24     the army, to be at the disposal of the army.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 3 in Serbian,

Page 15602

 1     page 4 in English.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Isn't it written here, Mr. Davidovic, that he was mobilised in

 4     September 1992, and that, of course, he could have been present at that

 5     line-up only after being mobilised?

 6        A.   I cannot say when he was mobilised.  I cannot confirm any dates

 7     he mentioned.  All I know is when things happened.  I say, with full

 8     responsibility, that it was in early July or perhaps the end of June, but

 9     that whole scene with the reserve force when we threw 800 men out of the

10     reserve police force was not in September, because beginning with the

11     second half of July, I was in Pljevlja, doing something completely

12     different for the federal ministry.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I see now September 1991.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, and this witness is only speaking about

16     when he was mobilised.  When this event took place that he described,

17     there's no date at all.

18             JUDGE KWON:  No.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, together with Andan, you were present at this

21     line-up.  Andan was the superior of this unit, and you were working

22     together with him?

23        A.   Dragan was a co-ordinator between the MUP of Republika Srpska and

24     me, as a member of the Federal Ministry of Internal Affairs.  With this

25     kind of organisation, Dragan was re-assigned to become the chief of the

Page 15603

 1     Security Centre in Bijeljina.

 2             Concerning the unit that was at my disposal, he could not have

 3     been subordinated to me.  Whether he was the subordinate of the chief of

 4     the centre in Bijeljina, I don't know.  But Dusko Malovic told me before

 5     that Mico Stanisic said, I can't allow anyone else to have command over

 6     this unit, and I'm sorry, because I know you well, I can't allow even you

 7     to command over this unit.  Everything done with them is strictly between

 8     me and Mico Stanisic, the minister.  And that was the end of that

 9     discussion.

10        Q.   I would appreciate shorter answers whenever possible.  So you say

11     you did not have command over that unit; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 7497, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is from July 1992, the 4th of July.  General Tolimir, who

16     was a colonel at the time, is writing about the case when you

17     over-stepped your authority.  He says --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Karadzic should give us a reference where

19     he's reading from.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This first paragraph says you were there with that unit.  In the

22     second paragraph:

23             "The Eastern Bosnian Corps Command of the Army of SR BH has faced

24     the following problems with the activities of that MUP special unit:

25     over-stepping of authority vis-a-vis military officials; abuse of

Page 15604

 1     authority; disrespect of military and police patrols; searches of the

 2     military and other vehicles, even the military police vehicles and

 3     intelligence and security authorities' vehicles; arrests of military

 4     officials, while Mico Davidovic, the commander of the unit, is behind all

 5     of these activities."

 6             And then paragraph 4 says:

 7             "Mico Davidovic has stated that he has approval by General Mladic

 8     for all these measures, which is not correct."

 9             And before that, paragraph 5 says:

10             "After Major Micic was detained at SJB Bijeljina, he was stripped

11     naked and started their interrogation only 90 minutes later, and later on

12     they searched his house."

13             Are you aware of this telegram sent by Colonel Tolimir to me and

14     the Minister of the Interior, that you detained this major, locked him up

15     at the police station, stripped him naked, and left him like that for

16     90 minutes, and then interrogated him and searched his house?

17        A.   When I came to Bijeljina --

18        Q.   Can we please not --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let him answer.  Do not interrupt the

20     witness.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then give me more time, then give

22     me enough time, Your Honour.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I came to Bijeljina, I only

24     had the orders of the then Minister Bulatovic that related to

25     paramilitaries, that whoever was found looting or robbing, that they

Page 15605

 1     should all be taken in and prosecuted, and that the measures envisaged by

 2     law should be taken.

 3             As for the agreements about my authority, an agreement was

 4     reached with General Ratko Mladic, and he personally requested that

 5     regardless of whether the persons were active-duty officers or not, that

 6     we should take all measures envisaged by law.  When someone was taken in

 7     by our police, military police would be informed about that, and this

 8     military police in Bijeljina would also take certain measures.

 9             It is true that we took in, among others, General Micic, and that

10     for these reasons a dispatch was sent to Minister Mico Stanisic.  And

11     then Mico asked us what this was all about.  I drew up a simple report

12     for him about that, and I clarified this on several occasions when I was

13     a witness in the Mico Stanisic trial, and during the preparation for my

14     testimony, I discussed the details mentioned here.

15             What was this about?  Dusko Atanackovic, who was the chief of

16     security of the corps in Bijeljina --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry.  I believe

18     you allow the Prosecution to control and lead the examination.  This is

19     too long a story.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I asked you whether you arrested this man, stripped him naked,

22     and whether you were ordered to do this by Pavle Bulatovic.

23        A.   I had an order from Ratko Mladic to take in and detain military

24     personnel, and if I did that, that I should inform military police about

25     that and military authorities, which I did.

Page 15606

 1        Q.   Did Mladic tell you to strip them naked?

 2        A.   No one told them to strip them naked, nor were they stripped

 3     naked.  But when they are taken in, then their belt would be taken off,

 4     and their shoelaces, so that they wouldn't commit suicide.  There was no

 5     reason for them to be stripped naked.  There are such claims, but they

 6     have nothing to do with truth.  However, anyone has the right to claim

 7     whatever he wants.  But I know what the rules are, and they were applied.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             I would tender this into evidence.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that's already in evidence.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2808, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             65 ter 7138, can we see that document, please.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This is in evidence as Exhibit P2895.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Here, to this telegram which was sent to me and Stanisic,

18     Stanisic replies to the Security Services Centre in Bijeljina.  That was

19     probably in -- Andan at that moment in July, or it was perhaps still

20     Jesuric.

21             Please have a look at this document.  It says that:

22             "The Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic has informed

23     us that special MUP units have arrested the battalion commander of the

24     1st Semberija Brigade, Major Jovan Micic, because of the robbery

25     committed by six soldiers from his unit, whom you have also arrested."

Page 15607

 1             And then it says:

 2             "It is necessary that you immediately hand over the arrested

 3     major and his soldiers to the military police.

 4             "We emphasise, once again, as we have already done several times

 5     verbally or in directives and orders, that measures must be taken and

 6     procedures followed in a completely legal manner and the provisions of

 7     the Law on Internal Affairs, the Law on Criminal Procedure, and other

 8     regulations in the field of internal affairs must be observed.  And if

 9     offences are committed by military personnel, and under Articles 115, 116

10     and 117 of the Law on the Army, must also be observed, with full

11     co-operation and co-ordination action with military organs in preventing

12     and detecting crimes and their perpetrators."

13             So could the late Pavle Bulatovic order you, and did he order you

14     or not - you can answer with yes or no - to do anything that was outside

15     the provisions of the Law on Interior Affairs, the Law on Criminal

16     Procedure and the Law on the Army?

17        A.   He could not have ordered me to do anything that was not in

18     accordance with the law.  But he emphasised that, in agreement with

19     General Mladic, whatever was applied to civilians should also be applied

20     to military personnel.  But when active-duty military personnel were

21     detained or taken in, it was our duty to inform military police about

22     that, which we did.

23             When Major Micic is mentioned here, we should emphasise that he

24     was found while perpetrating a crime, because he had stolen goods, items,

25     technical goods in three trucks which he was driving from Brcko to his

Page 15608

 1     house.  That was why we conducted a search of his house with personnel

 2     from the Crime Prevention Service.  We found several truckloads of stolen

 3     goods.  Everything was seized and placed in the Bijeljina MUP premises.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the accused please repeat the number of the

 6     document.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 18364, please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   On the same day, the 5th of July, Minister Stanisic, is writing

10     to the Command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, and in this dispatch he says

11     that as soon as he learned that the major was arrested:

12             "... we took measures for them to be handed over to the military

13     police."

14             He then says that there were many crimes committed by individuals

15     and groups, most often armed, and as there are not enough

16     Crime Prevention Service employees who can carry out the duties in

17     Semberija:

18             "... please help us to prevent the commission of the crimes and

19     discover the perpetrators ..."

20             And so on and so forth.  He asks for co-operation, and so on and

21     so forth.

22             Did you know that this was addressed to the corps command?

23        A.   Yes, I did.  And after that, there were no such incidents

24     anymore, because Petar Salapura, who was an envoy from the

25     Military Security Service, from the Main Staff Command, spent quite a lot

Page 15609

 1     of time together with me, so that we reacted jointly.  And together with

 2     the military police, we arrested military personnel and prosecuted them

 3     just like civilians.  But there were no more documents like this one

 4     issued, because it was clarified, what my authority was, and what was the

 5     basis for my coming to the territory of Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Did you notice that I did not respond, and do you find this

 7     normal, because the minister is working and doing his job?

 8        A.   Yes.  Mico talked to me immediately, and in another memo he

 9     indicated that there should be no such objections voiced anymore so that

10     there would be no confrontation between us and the organs and the Army of

11     Republika Srpska.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1408, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   In paragraph 205 of your statement, you say that in your opinion,

17     there was even an instance when your son was kidnapped.  Isn't that what

18     you say?  Please have a look at paragraph 205 of your statement.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You say that your son was kidnapped and that these were

21     Petko Budisa and Tomo Kovac who had arranged the kidnapping of your son;

22     is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And you connect that with your activities, that that

25     was a sort of revenge against you; correct?

Page 15610

 1        A.   I don't know if it was revenge against me, but it was very

 2     unpleasant.  They took in my son without identifying themselves and

 3     saying where they were taking him.  And then at 9.00, or 9.30, rather,

 4     they called me to my office at the Belgrade SUP.  My wife called me and

 5     his wife, my son's wife, and they told me that, Last night, Jovica had

 6     been taken away, this son of mine.  I tried to establish who had taken

 7     him from Kijac, from Drago Vukovic, from -- I don't know who else I

 8     asked.  Nobody could tell me if he had been taken, and where, and if

 9     these were legal organs.

10             And around 11.00, an inspector from Bijeljina called me on the

11     phone and told me, You have to know that now is the time when people are

12     taken away from their homes at night and murdered, so you can expect

13     anything.  It's even possible that your child may be found dead

14     somewhere.  You can imagine what sort of shock a man experiences when

15     he's told that his child has gone missing, and that he can expect that he

16     might be found murdered.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did your son Jovica have any problems with the law,

18     and does he have any problems still?

19        A.   Yes, he did.

20        Q.   What sort of problems?

21        A.   Well, there was this vehicle which you mentioned.  He had a

22     vehicle which he had bought from a person.  He also had a traffic license

23     in his name.  And when this was seized from him, I mean the vehicle,

24     three or four days later he was sitting in front of a cafe in Bijeljina

25     with a group of his friends, and he saw the same car passing along, being

Page 15611

 1     driven by somebody else and with different license plates.  So with a

 2     group of his friends who were present, he went -- or, rather, the vehicle

 3     was next to Dvori, and in front of the Spaj, in front of the hotel in

 4     Dvori, he went out with a gun in his hand.  He took the vehicle.  He said

 5     it was his, and he drove it away and put it in a garage somewhere,

 6     intending to hide it.  Then a procedure was initiated, and they said that

 7     this was a crime of robbery.  As far as I know, later on during the

 8     proceedings, he was acquitted for that part and he was released from

 9     custody, and this is what I know about these proceedings.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did he have any other problems with the law?

11        A.   He had another one two or three years ago.  I don't know what it

12     was.  It had to do with a conflict with some persons.  He was --

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Objection.  I question the relevance of this

16     kind of issue.  I mean, the witness has mentioned the event with the car,

17     and it's sort of related to this case.  But whatever the son did three

18     years ago is not really of concern for this Trial Chamber.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I quite agree with it.

20             Mr. Karadzic, move on to another topic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, if you look

22     at paragraph 205, where the arrest -- or, rather, the taking in of this

23     witness's son, it's connected with his activities.  Let's have a look how

24     this is phrased, this paragraph:

25             [In English] "... The wanted to avenge everything I had done.

Page 15612

 1     Kijac didn't tell me who was after me.  I eventually found that my son

 2     was being held at the Brcko SUP.  A colleague of mine, Krsto Stojkic,

 3     from Bijeljina, was in Brcko at the time, and he was told by someone from

 4     SUP that my son was being held there."

 5             [Interpretation] And so on and so forth.  And then it reads that

 6     Petko Budisa, who was a high-ranking police official, and Tomo Kovac, who

 7     was a minister, had arranged his kidnapping, and today he says that he

 8     was only taken in.

 9             So this is really relevant, because the father was concerned

10     about his son, to be sure, and this instance is important, particularly

11     as the witness, himself, says that this was connected with his

12     activities.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic, this issue is

14     something I have to clarify.  You certainly want me to do that.

15             You're trying, in every possible way, to devalue me and my

16     family.  You use all means available, and you want to show that my son

17     has a criminal character.

18             Mr. Karadzic, I did very complex and difficult duties, the most

19     difficult duties that existed at the time.  When I arrested Dusko and his

20     brother, the Yellow Wasps, and the remaining members of the gang which

21     kidnapped and looted around Zvornik, and when these persons were

22     prosecuted, after 30 days they were released from custody, and I will

23     tell you, it was at your and Mr. Krajisnik's insistence, according to

24     your theory that Serbs should not be arrested or prosecuted.

25             And this Zuco was released from custody, and as soon as he did,

Page 15613

 1     on that very day, on that very moment, he went looking for my son, and

 2     then he put a Colt gun in his mouth and asked him, Where is your Daddy

 3     now?  You do not mention this or other consequences that me and my family

 4     had to bear throughout the war, because when I left from Bijeljina, two

 5     times they entered into my and my parents' house.  Searches were

 6     conducted because allegedly I was hiding Muslims in my house.  Pressure

 7     was exerted on me.  Whoever of my family members was found in the street,

 8     they were frisked.  They wanted to show that they had power, and they

 9     said, "Where is this Mico Davidovic now?  Can he put up any resistance

10     now?

11             I did not want to complain about this before this Tribunal, but

12     you are trying to show, in every possible way, what sort of relationship

13     I and my family had or the attitude we had towards some legal decisions,

14     leaving aside the fact that we did many good things, that we found many

15     perpetrators, murderers and criminals, and you should not try to devalue

16     this and humiliate me as much as you can.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic, we'll get to that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time.  It's time to take a break.

19             We'll have a break for half an hour, and when we resume at 11.00,

20     I would like you to move on to another topic, leaving the issue of his

21     son.

22             11.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your

Page 15614

 1     cross-examination.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, did you have any knowledge to the effect that I

 4     had ordered the arrest of the Yellow Wasps?

 5        A.   Yes, that is what I was told by Stanisic.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Today, you said that either I or Krajisnik had

 7     ordered their release; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I or Krajisnik; who?

10        A.   Well, my information was that both you and Krajisnik intervened

11     that they be released from detention, and that was done.

12        Q.   And that was done, proceedings were brought to an end?

13        A.   Yes.  Proceedings were never initiated.

14        Q.   You had information from who?

15        A.   People from the judiciary and the MUP.

16        Q.   Name, surname, time, when you received this information?

17        A.   I was informed by my colleague, Ostoja Minic, who was working on

18     that case, who was writing up the criminal report, and later on I heard

19     that at the Prosecutor's Office as well, from the prosecutor.  I think

20     her name was Nada Milosevic.  I can also tell you about the details that

21     led to the interruption in these proceedings.

22        Q.   We'll get to that.  Is this Ostoja Minic alive?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25   (redacted)

Page 15615

 1   (redacted)

 2        Q.   Did he write the criminal report?

 3        A.   He was on the team that was working on the criminal report.  It

 4     was either Vukovic or Dragan Andan that signed the report.  I think that

 5     it was Dragan who was supposed to write it because he was chief of the

 6     centre then.

 7        Q.   Wasn't it you?  Didn't you write up the criminal report after

 8     carrying out the appropriate procedure?

 9        A.   I arrested the Yellow Wasps, and they were brought into custody,

10     and they were disarmed, if I can put it that way.  That is how I

11     eliminated them as a paramilitary formation.  And the professional

12     services within the organ of the interior were in charge of their own

13     work.  Some people are involved in identification, others in taking

14     statements, and also the preparations for writing up the criminal report.

15     These are teams that are involved in all of this.  If I were to be

16     involved in arrests and writing of criminal reports and everything, then

17     I'd probably have to be working 100 hours a day.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Just yes or no, did you state on several occasions

19     that you had processed them and that you wrote the criminal report?  Just

20     yes or no.

21        A.   I did take part in their processing and in the preparation of the

22     criminal report, but -- I was present as they were being interviewed, but

23     I did not write the criminal report.  I had actually left when the

24     criminal report was written.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you also to pause between question and

Page 15616

 1     answer.

 2             Now I'm going to mention some names to keep things short.  Did

 3     you know some of these persons, and were you also opponents with persons

 4     like Vojislav Jekic, Goran Zugic, Mauzer, Dusko Malovic?  Did you know

 5     these people?

 6        A.   Yes, I knew all of them.

 7        Q.   Were all of them killed?

 8        A.   No.  Vojislav Jekic was killed, as far as I know, somewhere in

 9     Belgrade.  Vojkan Djurkovic is alive.  Mauzer was killed, also after the

10     war.  I don't know exactly when.  That is in response to the questions

11     that you've put.

12        Q.   I don't know if I mentioned Vojkan Djurkovic.  I probably meant

13     Goran Zugic.

14        A.   Ah, Goran.  He was killed later in Montenegro, when we were

15     working on Operation Zvornik, a few months later he went to Zvornik, and

16     he was the chief of the Security Centre in Herceg Novi, then he was

17     transferred to the MUP and allegedly he was killed there.  I don't know

18     what happened, and how this happened, but that is what I know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So they were not killed in combat.  They were killed

20     criminally, in the street or somewhere else, Mauzer, Vojislav Jekic,

21     Goran Zugic, and Dusko Malovic; is that correct?

22        A.   I don't know where they were killed, but I know that Jekic was

23     killed in Belgrade, when he was leaving a car.  Mauzer was killed in

24     Bijeljina, when he was in a vehicle.  I don't know where and how Zugic

25     was killed.  I just know I heard that he was killed.

Page 15617

 1        Q.   The six-member group of your son, were they accused of murdering

 2     Mauzer, and was one of them found?

 3        A.   Would you repeat your question, please?

 4        Q.   The group of your son, consisting of six men, was it suspected of

 5     having committed that murder, and was one of them found guilty as well?

 6        A.   Saying that it's a group that includes my son, I think that that

 7     is totally improper.  Now, whether he was interviewed in connection with

 8     the Mauzer case, you, again, have to ask him.  The man is 40 years old.

 9     You can talk to him.  I don't know.  I must admit that I do not have much

10     communication with him.

11        Q.   Are you trying to say that you did not know that your son was a

12     suspect in Mauzer's assassination?

13        A.   He was not a suspect, and please do not present these untruths.

14     I know a detail that --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic raises here quite

17     some very serious allegations, and he just puts it like this.  That's not

18     proper.  If he wants to -- if he wants to say something about the witness

19     or his family is responsible for killing opponents - it seems to me

20     that's what he's heading to - he should actually have something in hand

21     to do that and not just raise these kind of allegations.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So far, the witness has been able to answer the

23     questions, so I let it go.  Probably he's going to put something to the

24     witness.

25             Did you like to say something more, Mr. Davidovic, when I

Page 15618

 1     interrupted you?  Please carry on.  You said your son was not a suspect.

 2     Otherwise, I will have Mr. Karadzic continue.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is truly improper

 4     to say that he was a suspect.  That is untrue, and I think that this is

 5     no accident, that they were trying to link him to that.  And I think it

 6     had to do with me, actually.

 7             Ever since I appeared before this Court, they have been trying to

 8     involve me and my son in different ways to show that I was a man who

 9     testified in The Hague, and they're trying to portray me as an unreliable

10     witness.  The facts that Mr. Karadzic has been stating in relation to

11     suspicions regarding my son, I have to repeat, once again, are total

12     rubbish.

13             There was this big article that appeared one day that said that

14     my son took part in Mauzer's murder directly.  An investigation was

15     conducted, and I didn't want to interfere in any way.  And the

16     investigation concluded that he had nothing to do with it.  The person

17     who had perpetrated that crime was arrested.  Another person who also

18     participated in this had allegedly been killed earlier on, and that is

19     what I know.

20             Now, bringing my son up now and linking him up to all of this is

21     truly unfair, but he is probably trying to challenge everything that I've

22     been saying, and that is the reason why he is putting these questions.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.

24             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15619

 1        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, is it correct that Mauzer was killed in the year

 2     2000?

 3        A.   I don't know at all when he was killed, the date or the day, or

 4     was I interested in that, when he was killed or why he was killed.  I'm

 5     just saying.

 6        Q.   He was killed on the 7th of June, 2000, and you testified against

 7     Krajisnik in June 2005; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.  And what does that have to do with that?

 9        Q.   Thank you.  If I have any interest in doing so, we're going to go

10     back to that, but this is what I'm putting to you, Mr. Davidovic, as you

11     say this is a generally-known proposition:  As you were trying to save

12     your son because Mauzer's murderer was in his group of six men and he was

13     a suspect, you resorted to extremely false testimony before this Court in

14     order to make things easier for your son.  That is my proposition, not

15     what you said, that your son had difficulties on account of your

16     testifying, because you testified in 2005, and Mauzer was killed in 2000.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could both speakers be

18     asked to speak slowly.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Davidovic, the witness, denied his

20     son being a member of those alleged -- a group of six men and also denied

21     that his son was a suspect.  In order to put that question to the witness

22     again, you need to put something that would support your allegation.

23             And when you -- I would like both of you to slow down and put a

24     pause between the question and answer.

25             So what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 15620

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   If it is correct that Mr. Davidovic is challenging the fact that

 3     his son was a suspect, and that he was a member of the six persons that

 4     included the murderer, I would like to ask for this text to be displayed.

 5        A.   Mr. Karadzic, indeed, this is the first time I hear these

 6     questions from you.  I have been through this entire procedure of giving

 7     a statement, and then I came to The Hague a couple of days ago.  No one

 8     ever, especially not this Office of the Prosecutor, and I'm referring to

 9     everyone that I spoke to, no one ever mentioned this and no one ever

10     mentioned my son in any way in relation to my testimony.  As a matter of

11     fact, I am 100 per cent certain that this OTP, in addition to the fact

12     that this is the third time that I am appearing before this Court, never

13     had any knowledge or any motive, or they never talked to me about my son

14     in any way, especially not in the context of Mauzer's assassination.

15     I think that they, themselves, are taken aback by what is being said

16     here, and bringing me into this context and saying that I was blackmailed

17     to say something to your detriment and in the interest of the OTP.

18     I think that is so improper and that it goes way beyond any kind of

19     elementary propriety.  I think that this kind of behaviour on your part

20     is totally inappropriate, and in the future I'm going to ask the

21     Trial Chamber to spare me of this kind of polemic with you.  Obviously,

22     you are moving on to a topic that has nothing to do with my testimony,

23     and I presented 90 per cent of all of this in my statement.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can this please be placed on the ELMO.

Page 15621

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, may I remind you of the fact that I did not

 3     involve your son.  You involved your son.  He was brought in by the

 4     police, and in paragraph 2005 [as interpreted], you justified that or,

 5     rather, you link that up to your testimony.  So you involve your son in

 6     paragraph 205, and I'm saying that that's not the way it was.  I'm saying

 7     that it's actually the other way around.  You are testifying here five

 8     years after Mauzer was killed.  You are testifying in a very extreme way,

 9     falsely, and you are making off-handed allegations because your son is in

10     trouble.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  You are simply engaging in a series of comments.

12     This is very far from cross-examination.  You know the difference between

13     commenting, and pretending or purporting to give evidence, and asking

14     relevant questions.  I haven't heard a relevant question now for some

15     time from you.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  In relation to this newspaper article that

19     I'm just being shown to be put on the ELMO, I object against it.  This is

20     just a newspaper article from a Banja Luka newspaper, and it's going on

21     about the son, and of the rest I can't really read because it's only in

22     the B/C/S.  I would object against the relevance of this.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And the witness, himself, referred to some newspaper

24     article which was turned out not to be true at the end of the day, so I

25     don't see any point of putting those news articles to the witness.  I'll

Page 15622

 1     consult my colleagues.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something before you make

 4     your decision?  May I say something before you make your decision?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it was at your

 7     initiative that I showed the document.  You said that if I wished to

 8     continue taking that line, that I had to come up with something.  I am

 9     coming up with something, something that the witness, himself, referred

10     to; that that was in the media, for instance.

11             Your Excellency Judge Morrison, I agree that perhaps it hasn't

12     been phrased as a question, but I'm presenting the case of the Defence

13     here.  I am actually presenting the position of the Defence, that is in

14     contrast to what the witness has been claiming, but perhaps that needs to

15     be done more skillfully.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, you're cross-examining, Dr. Karadzic, and

17     it has to be the Defence case can be put through asking relevant

18     questions which indicate what the case is and test the witness's view of

19     it.  But simply making comments as you have been doing, first of all, it

20     doesn't help us determine anything about the accuracy or credibility of

21     the witness, and, secondly, it's not something we can take into account

22     because it's simply a comment.  It uses huge amounts of time.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Dr. Karadzic, if I might refer to what I mentioned

24     last week, if, when you put your suggestion to the witness, give him a

25     chance to answer, yea or nay, and then put another one, so that in that

Page 15623

 1     way, your case is answered one way or the other by the witness, and it's

 2     on the record.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I refer you to what the witness stated

 4     today.  It's page 44, line 14.  He is said:

 5             "There was this big article that appeared one day that said that

 6     my son took part in Mauzer's murder directly.  An investigation was

 7     conducted, and that I didn't want to interfere in any way.  And the

 8     investigation concluded that he had nothing to do with it."

 9             Having heard this answer, there's no point of putting that

10     newspaper article to the witness.  It's totally a waste of time.  You can

11     prove that fact with other witnesses, if you have that.

12             Let's proceed.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, were you ever a threat to anyone's life?

15        A.   No.  Why?  I don't see any reason.

16        Q.   Apart from that major, were you mixed up in other cases of police

17     brutality?

18        A.   I don't know what you mean by the word "brutality."  I carried

19     out police duties in extraordinary wartime circumstances, when I must

20     admit we were not always able to limit ourselves to the regular means and

21     methods as in regular peacetime police work.  We were dealing with people

22     who were armed, who did not choose their means to get to their

23     objectives, so I don't know what you mean by "brutality."  I'd like you

24     to explain that.

25        Q.   We'll come to that.  Let's see why you mixed up Tomo Kovac, then

Page 15624

 1     deputy minister and later minister of the interior of Republika Srpska.

 2             In paragraph 205 -- could we now see 1D3671.

 3             This is a submission against Dragan Andan, director of the

 4     Police Force of Republika Srpska.  And in the first paragraph, we read:

 5             "In the past three years, Dragan Andan has continuously used his

 6     position at the Ministry of the Interior ..."

 7             And so on.  And the last sentence in paragraph 2 reads:

 8             "Because of such conduct in Bijeljina, the police officers

 9     mutinied, and I, as the assistant minister, had the task of calming down

10     the police officers, but they, as well as the relatives of fallen

11     policemen, demanded that Andan not be allowed to enter the MUP and to

12     have Mico Davidovic's unit expelled from Bijeljina."

13             And then the third sentence in the next paragraph:

14             "During the clearing up, an attempt on my life was organised by

15     Mico Davidovic and Dragan Andan, but they only managed to damage the

16     vehicle.  The assassin fired at me from the Radical Party offices in

17     Bijeljina."

18             Do you know where that building where the Radical Party

19     headquarters were is located, and do you know about this shooting at

20     Tomo Kovac?

21        A.   This is the first I'm hearing about it.  I never heard about it

22     from anyone, let alone anyone saying that I was involved in such an

23     attempt.  I was a high-ranking police official.  If I wanted to kill

24     someone or do something against the law, I could have done it in a

25     different way, a very different way, without getting personally involved.

Page 15625

 1     I was not involved in any of these things described here, but this is

 2     such rubbish that it doesn't deserve comment, really.  It's completely

 3     beyond the pale, trying to connect me with an assassination attempt

 4     against Tomo Kovac.  I don't know who made this up.

 5        Q.   This is an official submission to the Government of

 6     Republika Srpska, to the minister of the interior, written by Tomo Kovac

 7     and his assistant.

 8             Can we see the next page in Serbian.

 9             You see the last paragraph.  In English, we need the next page.

10             You see the last paragraph, where he says:

11             "I warned the minister about responsibility, in view of the

12     consequences on the citizens, because you can see that I cannot wash my

13     hands of anything done by any lunatic.  But we did deal, together with

14     members of the service, with people like Andan, Karan, Tomic.  We

15     suspended, removed them and detained them."

16             Is it true that you detained, suspended and removed members of

17     the police?

18        A.   We did not do any of these things.  We discussed already that

19     Andan was removed from the police.  We discussed that in the

20     Mico Stanisic case, and I don't see how and what I could have to do with

21     all these persons, Andan, Karan and Tomic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D3668.

23             If you need to see the signature, we can show you the last page

24     of this, just the last page in Serbian, and then we can move on to

25     1D3668.

Page 15626

 1             Then one more page.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you see the signature of Tomo Kovac?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D3668.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   11 September 1992, decision:

 8             "Andan, Dragan, shall temporarily be removed from the Ministry of

 9     the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as of

10     11 September 1992."

11             "Temporary removal," is that another synonym for suspension?

12        A.   Yes, it is.  He was suspended from the SUP, and we all know for

13     what reason.  At the Mico Stanisic trial, it was discussed why he was

14     suspended.  Perhaps the OTP has the documents that can be admitted into

15     evidence, but I know that reason.

16        Q.   What was the reason?

17        A.   When I left Bijeljina, Dragan Andan remained as chief of the

18     Security Centre in Bijeljina.  I had gone to Pljevlja because of the same

19     or similar problems.

20        Q.   What was his sin?

21        A.   Let me finish.  I got a call from Dragan Andan saying that he had

22     received orders from Minister Stanisic, that he had to go to Foca and

23     work again with a part of his unit, to disarm paramilitary units.  He

24     went to the so-called Bosnian Villa in Belgrade where he was received by

25     Mr. Stanisic, and when that meeting was over he called me again and said,

Page 15627

 1     They suspended me because I had refused to go to Foca.  And when I had

 2     talked to him earlier, I had told him that they know about him coming to

 3     Foca, that there would be an ambush, and there could be problems.  And

 4     when I asked him in that second conversation if that was the reason he

 5     refused, he said, yes, that was the reason.  And later, when I went to

 6     Belgrade and returned from Pljevlja, from Montenegro, I found

 7     Mico Stanisic.  I went to the SUP.  Tomo Kovac was there as well.  And

 8     they told me then they suspended him because Dragan Andan had, without

 9     authorisation, from the premises of the SUP, where seized objects are

10     kept, he removed two or three -- those gambling machines - what do you

11     call them? - you know -- yes, those gambling machines, and he placed them

12     in some privately owned cafes and, of course, profited from it in some

13     way.  I told them that was the first time I was hearing about it, and I

14     told them they were right, I would do the same if I determined that

15     something like that had been done.

16             So I supported Mico Stanisic and Tomo Kovac in that case.

17     There's nothing controversial about that.

18             And in subsequent proceedings, I believe Dragan Andan was a

19     witness in the Stanisic case.  On that occasion, I gave the same

20     statement, the same evidence, and what can I say now?  At first, I didn't

21     know the real reason, and later I found out and I confirmed it.  And in

22     the Stanisic case, I said I had seen a document, an official document,

23     stating that Dragan Andan had removed those gambling machines from

24     official police premises and made a profit from it.

25        Q.   When did you return from Pljevlja and when did Stanisic tell you

Page 15628

 1     that?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I have to tell you that while I was still in

 3     Pljevlja, when Dragan was suspended, I went to the Main Staff of the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska.  I found Mr. Tolimir there, as well as

 5     Petar Salapura, and told them that if they have any vacancies, they

 6     should take Dragan Andan to work for them.  And I believe I went to

 7     Bijeljina at that time.  I found Mico Stanisic and Tomo Kovac.  Tomo was

 8     at the time his assistant or deputy.  Mico Stanisic was no longer

 9     minister later, but Tomo Kovac remained.  But at that time, he was in

10     Bijeljina, and there was Cedo Kljajic present as well when we discussed

11     this.

12        Q.   But even though you heard that knowledge during the war, and you

13     told Mico Stanisic and Tomo Kovac you were right, in your paragraph 114

14     of your statement, you still go on saying that Dragan Andan had been

15     suspended because he had good intentions towards Muslims?

16        A.   I have to say what I've said before in my evidence.

17     Dragan Andan, working in his job, as least as far as I was concerned,

18     carried out his work impeccably.  I did not notice, in this conduct, any

19     sign of discrimination against any other national community, and he was

20     extremely dedicated and committed to me, as his superior, and always

21     followed orders.

22             And I also have to say that Dragan Andan was not very well liked

23     in the MUP of Republika Srpska.  I believe he had had a conflict with

24     Mico Stanisic even before the war.  Mico confirmed that and Cedo Kljajic

25     confirmed that, because when Cedo Kljajic suggested Dragan Andan became

Page 15629

 1     my assistant as a co-ordinator, then Mico Stanisic said, Why are you

 2     sending him, Cedo.  You know who Dragan Andan is.  He was involved with

 3     the Muslims.  He mentioned some butcher, some football referee.  And Mico

 4     said, I don't want to see him here in Sarajevo.  And then Cedo said, I

 5     sent him to Brcko, to work in the organs, to help out, if necessary.

 6             And this relationship between Mico Stanisic and Dragan Andan is

 7     something I know nothing about.  Why they couldn't tolerate each other, I

 8     don't know.  But I confirm that in his job, Dragan Andan was a very good

 9     officer, and what he had done later is really something that I condemn.

10             And I said, speaking to Mico Stanisic later, I would have done

11     the same, I would have suspended him because of what he had done with

12     those gambling machines.

13        Q.   Let's come back to what is written here.  Look at paragraph 114

14     of your statement as well.

15             Mr. Davidovic, you know who appoints the chief of the Security

16     Services Centre; it's the minister?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   Is it correct that Mico Stanisic, despite what you say, that they

19     were in conflict even before the war, is it true that Mico Stanisic

20     appointed Dragan Andan chief of Security Services Centre?

21        A.   He was appointed by Cedo Kljajic, and he signed his letter of

22     appointment, his temporary appointment as acting chief of

23     Security Services Centre.  Cedo probably made that decision in agreement

24     with Mico Stanisic, and the reason was probably that Dragan Andan had

25     worked with us in Brcko, Zvornik and Bijeljina, and that's probably what

Page 15630

 1     motivated Mico Stanisic to give his consent for the appointment.  It

 2     could have been -- it could not have been done without Mico.

 3        Q.   So he was appointed because he was expected to work well, and you

 4     also received praise in your work.  But despite the fact that you knew

 5     all this even during the war, in paragraph 114 you still state that he

 6     was suspended -- Dragan Andan was suspended because he was good to the

 7     Muslims, and you changed that only when Stanisic showed you the document,

 8     whereas here, in the statement given for my case, you had a chance to

 9     correct this, and you were banned -- and this theory that he was

10     suspended because he was good to the Muslims.

11        A.   I don't know if they had dealt with these details.  If they had,

12     I mean, the Prosecution, I would have shown them the statement I gave in

13     Mico Stanisic's case.  I put all the relevant facts there.  This

14     statement was prepared at a time when I did not know about this.  The

15     investigators, themselves, could have co-ordinated these statements.

16     There was one member of the Trial Chamber in that case who asked me,

17     Would you have suspended the man, knowing what you knew?  I said I would.

18     But I know -- I knew at the time there were some problems, and I thought,

19     when he went to have that meeting in Belgrade, that he was suspended for

20     some other reasons.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted,

22     the one on the screen now?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1408, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  1409?

Page 15631

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry, 1409.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3669, can we please see that one

 3     now just to look at it briefly to see if that was the document you were

 4     presented concerning reasons for the suspension of Andan.  1D36 -- yes,

 5     3669.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please have a look at this document.  Is that the document you

 8     were shown during the Stanisic trial?

 9        A.   I think it is.  More or less, the essence is the same.  It has to

10     do with machines that were seized from the SJB depot.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we have it admitted, please?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1410, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   In paragraph 169 of your statement, you talk about Zuca, his

17     arrest, and you say that five to six persons were arrested, they were all

18     released about three days later, and that, as far as you remember, that

19     you were already in Belgrade at the time, and that later on Zuca was

20     indicted in Sabac and was sentenced to seven or eight years.

21             Now, you say in paragraph 169 --

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it's in fact 168.

23             JUDGE KWON:  He realised this mistake.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And in 169, you say:

Page 15632

 1             [In English] "It was only because I was working in the Federal

 2     SUP, that I was able to achieve what I did."

 3             [Interpretation] And the sentence further down:

 4             [In English] "As a consequence of our achievement, Dragan Andan

 5     was dismissed from his post right after my return to Belgrade."

 6             [Interpretation] Then a bit further down, you say:

 7             [In English] "I can see at page 3 of this document, it says that

 8     Dragan Andan was temporarily suspended for illegal use of poker machines.

 9     I was not aware of this before.  It shows that Stanisic removed Andan

10     from his post for this reason, not because he was involved in disarming

11     or arrest of paramilitaries."

12             [Interpretation] Is -- that paragraph 169 of your statement, is

13     that what it reads?

14        A.   Please wait a little bit.  I have to find this paragraph.

15     Everything is mixed, we skip and jump from one thing to another, so I

16     cannot find my bearings.

17        Q.   169.

18        A.   Yes.  Now, please let me read it.

19             Yes.  So what is contested here?  Can you please repeat what you

20     asked me?

21        Q.   Well, you can see that in the same paragraph, you stick to it

22     that as a consequence of his successful work, Dragan Andan was dismissed

23     from his post.  And then you see, yourself, that in the same paragraph

24     you say, yourself, that that was not the reason, but, rather, his

25     criminal activities?

Page 15633

 1        A.   Well, I told you how things developed and what happened.  Now,

 2     what happened later about his suspension, this is something that I

 3     clarified in detail in the Stanisic trial.  You're insisting on this once

 4     again.  I described it then.  I gave my testimony, and I also gave my

 5     statement about things as I was aware of them now.

 6             Dragan Andan informed me that Mico Stanisic suspended him, would

 7     not allow him to go on working.  He didn't tell me that the reasons were

 8     the gambling machines, in the first place, but problems about his

 9     departure to Foca and earlier problems that there were between

10     Mico Stanisic and some Muslims that Mico Stanisic had known.

11             So that was a statement I gave at that moment, and later on there

12     was clarification about the other documents which are referred to now,

13     which were presented in the Mico Stanisic case.  So I do not deny that

14     that was the reason and that I would have suspended him as well.  At the

15     moment when I knew what was happening, this is what I said.

16        Q.   And Stanisic informed you --

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Nothing else is actually said in the

20     amalgamated statement.  The witness has already, in the amalgamated

21     statement, corrected his previous view as can be seen, and there is also

22     reference to the document that he was looking at and saw that the

23     gambling machine was actually the reason for the suspension.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond to this, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 15634

 1             We have the witness's answer.  We can proceed.  Move on to your

 2     next question.  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, now please focus your attention on paragraph 54 of

 5     your statement.  You say that you were with me and Mladic in Lukavica.

 6     What sort of meeting was that?  Who was the chairman, and who was keeping

 7     the minutes?

 8        A.   It was not a meeting, it was not scheduled, it was not chaired by

 9     anyone.  At the request of Petar Gracanin, who was my minister - there

10     were intercepted conversations here - he informed me that I should go and

11     report to Ratko Mladic and inform him whether I needed additional

12     equipment, weapons or ammunition, that I should report to him, and that I

13     had to report to Ratko Mladic, who was at the barracks in Lukavica.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just asking you if it was a meeting which Mladic,

15     you and I attended.

16        A.   No, it was an informal conversation, because you suddenly showed

17     up while I was talking with Ratko Mladic.  You were not announced, and no

18     one knew you would come.  I think that even General Ratko Mladic didn't

19     know that you would appear.  Once you entered the room, we got up to

20     greet you, and then you joined us in the conversation.  The conversation

21     couldn't have lasted for more than five to ten minutes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You say:

23             "I demanded of Mladic that measures be taken regarding the

24     looting, the stealing of cars, and against criminals in the MUP of

25     Republika Srpska."

Page 15635

 1             And so on.

 2             Was it a duty of the army, and how could you demand from Mladic

 3     to do something that is a police job?

 4        A.   When I came there and talked to General Mladic, at the beginning

 5     of our conversation, when he asked me what we were doing and where we

 6     were, I told him, among other things, that I noticed that there were many

 7     incidences of looting, robbery and so on, and that active-duty policemen

 8     and reserve policemen were doing that, that there were informal groups

 9     who broke into Muslims' apartments and homes, took out items.  I had

10     occasion to see, in front of a high-rise building, how they were hauling

11     stuff.

12        Q.   All right, all right.  I'm just asking you whether this was the

13     duty of the police or the army to do that.

14        A.   I informed him about this with the intention to have him know

15     about that, as a general of the army, and to receive any sort of

16     suggestion from him what we should do if we came across such people doing

17     such things.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Pause, pause.

19             Yes, put your question, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Karadzic was present and a party to the conversation.

22     Karadzic and Mladic confirmed that such things were happening and that it

23     was quite noticeable, and that it could be changed.  Mladic told Karadzic

24     that it was hard to function with all this chaos.  Karadzic's reply was

25     that he would speak with Djeric and see what could be done.

Page 15636

 1             Djeric was the prime minister at the time; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Karadzic said that we should try and prevent the looting, but

 4     that there should be no arrests of Serbs or conflicts between them.

 5     Karadzic said that it was very important for Serbs not to fight one

 6     another, as it had been the case in the Second World War.  Is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So at the moment, was I the head of Republika Srpska or the

10     president?

11        A.   I think you were.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a look at

13     D1406.  If we can please see page 2.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you please read this, beginning with:  "Considering ..."?

16     This is your statement given to the Serbian MUP; correct?

17             Is that the statement you gave to the Serbian MUP which we looked

18     at a while ago?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   Can you please read the last paragraph, which begins with the

21     word "Considering"?

22        A.   "Considering," is that what you mean, "that between April and

23     September 1992, at the order of the leadership of Republika Srpska, I was

24     involved in identifying and arresting war criminals who are Serbs, and

25     disarming various Serbian paramilitary formations, as well as information

Page 15637

 1     that since 1992 I received frequent threats from the members of these

 2     groups, I conclude that this is provocation designed to compromise me as

 3     a character and as a member of the Federal MUP."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now have a look at another document.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the accused please repeat the number.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2741.  I'm sorry, 65 ter 7442.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2900, Your Honours.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a report sent to the president of the Presidency of the

11     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina by Dragan Andan.

12             Can we please see the last page.  This is about what you and he

13     were doing.  This is the 29th of July.  You were already in Bijeljina at

14     the time, and he described to me what you were doing in Bijeljina.  So

15     please have a look at my comments.

16             Can you please read to the Trial Chamber what is handwritten in

17     Cyrillic at the bottom of the page?

18        A.   I think it says:  "Keep --"

19        Q.   "Enforcing"?

20        A.   " ... enforcing order ..."

21        Q.   " ... and the rule of law."

22        A.   "Keep enforcing order and the rule of law ."  I apologise.  And

23     this is your signature.

24        Q.   This is a document which the Prosecutor showed you during the

25     proofing; correct?

Page 15638

 1        A.   No.  This is the first time I see it.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a look at

 3     something from your statement, paragraph 101 of your statement, where you

 4     say:

 5             [In English] "I do not know whether the handwritten note, 'Keep

 6     enforcing order and the rule of law,' 2nd of August, 1992,

 7     Radovan Karadzic," in ERN so and so, "comes from Radovan Karadzic or not.

 8     This is the first time I see it, but I can say that I or Dragan Andan

 9     never received any support or recognition from the work we were doing."

10             [Interpretation] So you have seen it, but you doubt it; correct.

11        A.   I saw it now, but Dragan never told me that he ever received that

12     with your signature and that you wrote a comment.  I didn't know that.

13        Q.   Put in paragraph 101, you confirm that you have seen this

14     document?

15        A.   I don't know.  I'm not sure whether I saw it.  It was not shown

16     to me here by the Prosecution, and I don't believe I saw it earlier.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we now please see 1D3734.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should know I had the occasion

20     to be presented with many documents at the first and the second trial,

21     and now, so it's difficult for me to say with any certainty whether this

22     document was presented to me or not.  You have to understand, it's really

23     a heap of documents.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 264 in e-court of this

25     document, 1D3734.  Or, rather -- yes, yes, that's the page.

Page 15639

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You were asked here, in the second question from the top of the

 3     page --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You better tell the witness what this document is

 5     about.  This seems to be the transcript in the Krajisnik case.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, it's the transcript

 7     from the Krajisnik trial.  I thought the witness should be given a chance

 8     to see that and if he remembers it.

 9             It's Monday, the 13th of June:

10             [In English] "So I take it there that you blamed the SDS for

11     losing your job as chief of police?"

12             [Interpretation] Then you say, it's line 18:

13             [In English] "Had I wanted to join in, I would have done it.  I

14     was offered promotion."

15             [Interpretation] You were saying that you were offered to become

16     a member of SDS and that you were offered a promotion.  Is it correct,

17     Mr. Davidovic, that elections were held in November 1990 and you remained

18     in your position until June or July of 1991.

19        A.   When the elections were completed, after less than a month or

20     two, once the Republican MUP came into power, I was relieved of my post

21     and Predrag Jesuric was assigned to my post.  Before this replacement and

22     the change of complete relationships, which were a consequence of

23     elections, when the party was registered, as it was registered as an

24     association of citizens rather than a political party, it was only after

25     the election that a law was adopted according to which political parties

Page 15640

 1     could be formed.  That was the multi-party system which was then

 2     established, so parties could now be registered.  And up until that time,

 3     the law which was in force stipulated that only associations of citizens

 4     could be registered with the organ of Internal Affairs.  So if it was

 5     from Bijeljina, it had to be registered at the Bijeljina SUP, and then

 6     the statute would be established, the Executive Board, the members who

 7     were in the governing bodies, and so on.  Then a proposal would be

 8     submitted and what was then called the Association of Citizens would be

 9     registered.  Later on, it was changed into a political party.

10             At the moment when there were preparations ongoing for such a

11     preparation, Predrag Jesuric, who was organising all this in Bijeljina,

12     talked to me frequently.  And, among other things, he offered me to join

13     the SDS party, saying that once the party came into power, that it would

14     offer me a better and more adequate position, that I would be promoted

15     and so on, but I did not accept that.  We were in two different worlds,

16     how we saw me and my possible position on the political scene at the

17     time.

18        Q.   Were you a sworn and firm Communist at the time?

19        A.   I had been a member of the party.  Once the League of Communists

20     ceased to exist, I was never a member of any another political party.

21        Q.   Your answer here:

22             [In English] "Had I wanted to be a member ..."

23             [Interpretation] And so on and so forth:

24             [In English] "... any party that is called Serbian Democratic,

25     et cetera, Serbia, sounded like something which was not progressive."

Page 15641

 1             [Interpretation] What is the origin of your disgust?  Does it

 2     have to do with your membership in the League of Communists or what?

 3        A.   No, I was never a supporter of any national party.  Any kind of

 4     expression of ethnicity was something very conservative, from my point of

 5     view, because if someone highlights only one ethnic group or one nation,

 6     I do not want to talk to such people.  I do not belong to their ranks,

 7     and I have to tell you that I never defined myself that way, as to

 8     whether I belonged to one ethnicity or nation or another.  I belonged to

 9     the Serb people.  I was born a Serb.  I belonged to that culture.  That

10     is my identity.  Everyone can identify themselves as they wish, but I am

11     not disputing anyone else's right, any other ethnic or religious group.

12     Everyone should have their own customs and traditions.  But this very

13     name or prefix, "Serbian," means that this is a mono-ethnic community

14     that I could not belong to.  This does not have to do with belonging to

15     the Communist Party.  This has to do with my attitude towards people.  I

16     never distinguished among people on the basis of their ethnicity.  That

17     is below any kind of civilisational level that I find acceptable.

18        Q.   [No interpretation]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the number.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

21             It may not be that important, but while we are on this document,

22     shall we show the witness page 147 in e-court of this document, the

23     transcript, the last footage.  It is 0658, page 147.  It's about the

24     document which contains Dr. Karadzic's signature, because you said you

25     didn't remember whether you had seen this document before.

Page 15642

 1             It's in the middle of this, a question from Mr. Hannis from the

 2     Prosecution.  The question is like this at line 14:

 3             "Assuming for purpose of my next question that that is

 4     Mr. Karadzic's signature, saying, 'Keep on enforcing the rule of law' it

 5     would seem to indicate that there was approval from him for the work that

 6     you and Mr. Andan had done in Bijeljina."

 7             And then your answer was:

 8             "I did not get a raise or no support in any way.  I must admit I

 9     did not know about this, and I don't know whether this came from

10     Radovan Karadzic.  I mean, this is the document that I had not seen

11     before, and I don't know."

12             Now, do you remember having seen that document at the time of

13     your evidence -- your giving evidence in the Krajisnik case?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now that I've looked at this

15     statement, I know that I've seen it.  Please do not hold it against me.

16     I cannot recognise the document.  There were vast amounts of documents

17     that were shown to me, so it's hard for me to be able to tell each and

18     every time.

19             When I came for the first time, I told the OTP that it's hard for

20     me to remember exact dates and names, but basically I know what I did,

21     and that is why I'm talking about what I did.  That is why I keep

22     repeating myself.  I was not inventing anything.  I was not saying things

23     that were not true in any way.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  Rest assured, nobody

25     holds it against you.

Page 15643

 1             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit these two pages?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the number?  D ...?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1411.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we now look at 1D3646.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You sent a report to the minister about your activity in

12     Republika Srpska; right?

13        A.   Yes, several reports.

14        Q.   Did the first report go on the 8th of August, 1992?

15        A.   I cannot recall.  I should take a look.  I cannot remember,

16     especially not dates.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a version in Serbian too,

18     so could we please have both.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is that your first report, the 8th of August; that is to say,

21     after your mission?

22        A.   Possibly.  Please allow me to have a look at it.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page so that

24     Mr. Davidovic can see his signature.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15644

 1        Q.   Is that your signature?

 2        A.   I think it is.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we now go back to the beginning.  So everybody can read this,

 5     so I don't need to read it out.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You say what you did.  You headed the Brigade of the Federal SUP,

 8     and you were there to establish law and order, the normal functioning of

 9     organs of the interior; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Then it says that every day, the population was being mistreated,

12     irrespective of ethnic background; also, that there was robbery, looting

13     of privately-owned and socially-owned property; right?

14        A.   That's right.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Further on, it says because of the illegal functioning of the

18     organs of the interior and because of the terror of the paramilitary

19     units in the territory of the CSB Bijeljina, masses of the population

20     left, Muslim and Serbian, from the territories of Brcko, Bijeljina and

21     Zvornik municipalities; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.  I think

24     that it has to be the next page in English, too.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15645

 1        Q.   It says, around the middle of the paragraph, you can see "867,"

 2     the number 867, the number of reserve policemen, and that's how we're

 3     going to identify it.

 4             It's fine now.

 5             In the middle of the second paragraph in Serbian, it says

 6     employees of the milicija during the curfew, together with the military

 7     police, took over complete control, and in that period they prevented the

 8     commission of any kind of crimes; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   It was actually the next page in English, wasn't it?  In Serbian,

11     it says:

12             "Firm co-operation has been established with the corps command of

13     the Serb Army and members of the military police in carrying out their

14     joint tasks.  And as for our work, organs of the local authorities were

15     continuously informed and consulted about our work."

16             Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The last sentence down there, it says:

19             "For example, after we arrived in the territory of the CSB

20     Bijeljina --"

21             Can we have the next one; in English too:

22             "Not a single killing was committed as a result of inter-ethnic

23     altercations."

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Second bullet point:

Page 15646

 1             "There was no armed robbery."

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Third bullet point:

 4             "Preventive operative work uncovered a number of groups involved

 5     in organised crime ... they were arrested and placed under investigation

 6     or expelled from the area of the CSB Bijeljina."

 7             Is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you look at the one further down:

10             "The special unit carried out all its activity with the

11     professional team of the Ministry of the Interior of the BiH, and in many

12     cases they operated together with the Army of the Serb Republic of BiH."

13             Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the page that is three

16     pages ahead.  It says "7" in Serbian.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

18        Q.   "Through a prepared and organised action, synchronised with the

19     MUP of the SR BiH, the Special Unit very successfully, and without loss

20     of human life ..."

21             It is actually page 9 in English.

22             "... disarmed all paramilitary locations in the area of the CSB

23     Bijeljina."

24             Does the CSB Bijeljina include Zvornik and Brcko and all of

25     Semberija.

Page 15647

 1        A.   Yes, the entire part of Central Bosnia.

 2        Q.   Zvornik is not included in the transcript.  Lopare, Ugljevik.

 3     Can you tell us all of that?

 4        A.   Brcko, Bijeljina, Ugljevik, Lopare, Zvornik, Bratunac,

 5     Srebrenica, Sekovici, Milici.  That is that area.  However, we only dealt

 6     with three, Bijeljina, Brcko and Zvornik.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  So they disarmed members of the paramilitary

 8     formations that were engrossed in criminal activity, and --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind for the court reporter as well,

10     not -- in addition to the interpreters, please slow down when you read

11     out something.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   "We arrested those who were engaged in crime, and they will have

14     criminal proceedings instituted against them, and they will be

15     prosecuted.  They were returned to the FRY if they were nationals of the

16     FRY, whereas local persons were deployed in regular units of the

17     Serb Republic of BiH."

18             Is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.

20        Q.   The Vuckovic brothers, the leaders of the Yellow Wasps, were they

21     nationals of Serbia?

22        A.   Yes, they were.

23        Q.   Then you say here:

24             "The special unit displayed a high degree of professionalism,

25     efficiency and responsibility, for which they received commendations from

Page 15648

 1     the political organs in charge."

 2             It's the next page in English.

 3             "... and in these towns, we were welcomed as the liberators of

 4     Bijeljina, Zvornik and Brcko."

 5             Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this report be

 8     admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1412, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you remember that this operation was commended at sessions of

13     the Assembly of Republika Srpska, too?

14        A.   I was informed through some MP that there was a parliamentary

15     debate, and what was mentioned was that we did our police work extremely

16     well, and that that is the way each and every municipality should be

17     dealt with, and that this resounded favorably in the public.  However,

18     when a specific conclusion was supposed to be passed to continue such

19     activity, it was not actually adopted, first of all, because

20     Speaker Krajisnik was against it.  He said, Let us not arrest each other.

21     So that subject was not discussed any further.  At least that's what

22     Micic told me, an MP from Republika Srpska.  He said, People, I can just

23     tell you that as for Mico Davidovic and people like him, we are going to

24     make statues of them and keep them in the MUP for everyone to remember,

25     and that that was the end of that debate and that there was no effect

Page 15649

 1     further on.  Everything continued as previously.  And once we withdrew,

 2     things got even worse.

 3        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I looked at the entire transcript of Assembly

 4     sessions.  The transcript includes even situations when people coughed.

 5     Mr. Krajisnik did not say that.  Did you see that transcript?  Did the

 6     Prosecutor show you that transcript that would confirm Mr. Krajisnik said

 7     that?

 8        A.   No, no one showed that to me.  It was Micic, the MP, who told me

 9     about this.  However, the first time I mentioned him in the Krajisnik

10     trial, he did not wish to respond; also not in relation to some other

11     documents and individuals.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the names.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters didn't get some names.  Did you

14     mention some names of individuals, Mr. Davidovic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said Micic.  That was the

16     name of the republican MP from Bijeljina.  He said that to me.  Now,

17     whether that was true or not, whether he wanted to say that to me in

18     order to show me that he was trying to point out what a good job I was

19     doing or something, that I cannot say now.  I just know what it was that

20     he had said to me.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, is it correct that there were laws according to

23     which you did what you did in Republika Srpska?

24        A.   Yes, all the laws that were in force in the former Yugoslavia

25     were still in force, and we acted on the basis of these laws.  That gave

Page 15650

 1     us the right and authority to bring persons into custody, to file

 2     criminal reports, and to bring to justice persons who had committed

 3     murders, looting, robbery, et cetera.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  So the Assembly did not need to pass any new laws or

 5     bills, is that right, it was just a commendation in view of that

 6     operation; right?

 7        A.   Yes, but I have to say just one more thing.

 8             When I arrived in Zvornik, the provisional government suspended

 9     all republican and federal laws, and they ordered that it was only their

10     decisions that would be valid.  They placed themselves above any law, and

11     that was made public in some Official Gazette of Zvornik, I don't know

12     which one, though.  So they actually authorised themselves only to do

13     whatever they wanted, and they annulled all laws.

14        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, you know about state administration.  You know

15     that the government annuls wrongful decisions made by municipalities?

16        A.   Yes, I know that, of course.

17        Q.   So it was not a new enactment before the Assembly, no new bill

18     was proposed.  There was a discussion.  The operation was welcomed, then

19     received praise; correct?

20        A.   I suppose so.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't want to move to

22     a new subject just before the break.  Do you agree that we do that after

23     the break?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

25             We'll have a break, Mr. Davidovic, for an hour and resume at

Page 15651

 1     1.30.

 2                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, we should now move to the subject of Yellow Wasps.

 7     That was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, operation which ended

 8     your mission in Republika Srpska?

 9             In paragraph 142 of your statement, last passage, it says:

10             "We prepared the documents, submitted criminal reports to the

11     Military Prosecutor in Bijeljina, but as soon as we withdrew from that

12     region, all the proceedings were terminated and they were released."

13             Correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 65 ter 7284.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This Exhibit P2905, Your Honours.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   It says here - we can see the Serbian version - that the Lower

19     Court in Bijeljina, on the 28th of August, with the

20     Investigating Judge Biljana Simeunovic, et cetera, et cetera, concerning

21     the crime of aggravated theft from Article 148, made the following

22     ruling:

23             "Detention against the accused, Vojin Vuckovic, known as Zuco,

24     Rade Tanackovic," and other names, "is hereby suspended"?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15652

 1        Q.   There is no Dusko here; is that right?

 2        A.   I see Vojin Vuckovic, not --

 3        Q.   There is no Dusko Vuckovic, known as Repic?

 4        A.   No, because the report is for aggravated theft and theft.  As for

 5     the charge of murder, that was filed with the Military Prosecutor's

 6     Office, because a decision was then in effect that war crimes should be

 7     dealt with by military courts, whereas general crimes would be dealt with

 8     by the State Security Service.  That's why this criminal report was filed

 9     in this form.

10        Q.   So they were reported, according to you, and suspected and

11     accused of theft.  It says detention is suspended.  Can we see page 2 to

12     see why detention -- or, rather, remand in custody is terminated.

13             It says:

14             "As follows from the above, the Public Prosecutor does not find

15     there is sufficient grounds for detention at about 200 hours on 29 August

16     1992, it will have been a month since the date and the hour the detention

17     started; that is to say, the length of time the accused can be detained

18     pursuant to Article 197, paragraph 1 of the Criminal Code will have

19     expired."

20             Do you agree, then, that they were remanded in custody as long as

21     it was lawful, and they were released when this dead-line expired, or

22     just before it expired?

23        A.   I can't agree with this suggestion.  You have to clarify this

24     case from the beginning.

25             You showed me earlier a criminal report against these persons, if

Page 15653

 1     you remember.  I'll tell you the details why this case was not dealt with

 2     and how they avoided prosecution.

 3             When we were dealing with the Yellow Wasps in Zvornik, on that

 4     day the prosecutor who was in Zvornik packed up his things, locked up his

 5     office, and went to the front-line.  He volunteered to be a soldier on

 6     the front-line, not to be at the Prosecutor's Office any longer.  So he

 7     was gone, and we had to file the criminal report to the

 8     Basic Prosecutor's Office in Bijeljina.  This Prosecutor's Office made a

 9     decision several days later that they do not have jurisdiction because

10     the case happened in Zvornik, which was correct, so they rejected the

11     criminal report, sent it back to the MUP, saying that they should file it

12     with the Prosecutor's Office in Zvornik.  We did take it to Zvornik, and

13     the report lay there for 30 days without being dealt with by anybody.  It

14     was just lying in a drawer.  There was no prosecutor.  So these 30 days,

15     while we, as policemen, were in charge, expired, and all these days that

16     they spent in remand have expired.  And the question arose, what to do

17     with them.  Pressures were exerted that they be released.  I was told

18     later that it was Karadzic and Krajisnik who exerted that pressure,

19     because I inquired.

20             And what happened next?  When the district republic prosecutor

21     ordered that the Basic Prosecutor's Office in Bijeljina should take up

22     the case, then the prosecutor in Bijeljina, who is not mentioned in

23     preamble to this decision, if you would give us back the first page, it

24     is said they are charged with aggravated theft, and remand for that kind

25     of crime is allowed up to six months.  But since nobody was working on

Page 15654

 1     the case, they had been remand for 30 days already, they had to be

 2     released, and, therefore, they found a solution.  Article 197,

 3     paragraph 1, allows the accused to be charged only with theft; not

 4     aggravated theft or robbery, just theft.  And remand for that kind of

 5     crime is allowed only up to 30 days.  So they were released, they were

 6     free.  The case file remained in the drawer of the Prosecutor's Office in

 7     Bijeljina.  It was never taken up again.  They left the remand prison,

 8     and nobody ever took that case up again.  That's the entire problem with

 9     this case.  In fact, the Prosecutor's Office changed the legal

10     qualification from aggravated theft into simple theft.  That's how they

11     shortened the allowed remand in prison.

12        Q.   It says detention is suspended, and you are saying that,

13     furthermore, the whole case was abandoned?

14        A.   Detention was suspended.  The case was left sitting in a drawer,

15     and it was never prosecuted again.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D3659.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You filed a criminal report only for aggravated theft; right?

19        A.   For aggravated theft and robbery.  Those are serious crimes.  The

20     Prosecutor's Office changed that into the qualification of simple theft.

21        Q.   Look at this document, 14 September 1992.  The Basic Public

22     Prosecutor's Office in Bijeljina is writing to the investigating judge in

23     Bijeljina, requesting an expansion of the investigation against

24     Dusko Vuckovic, also known as Repic; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15655

 1        Q.   Article 148, aggravated theft; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that's what it says here, "aggravated theft."

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we have a translation in the

 5     Office of the Prosecutor.  We will provide it.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we put it on the ELMO?

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can we see, Mr. Davidovic, that a request is made here to expand

10     the investigation into aggravated theft from 28th June to 29 July?  He

11     was included in this investigation, although he was not in that first

12     group; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let's look at the next page.  You said you transferred this to

15     the Military Prosecutor's Office; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   See why the military prosecutor sent it back to the regular

18     prosecutor.  [In English] Yeah, okay.

19             [Interpretation] The Military Prosecutor's Office returned this

20     criminal report, explaining that the reported person, Dusko Vuckovic,

21     cannot be treated as a member of the Serbian Army of the

22     Serbian Republic, and that unlike other persons named in the report, he

23     did not belong to the regular armed forces.  So he was accused of theft,

24     reported to the Military Prosecutor's office.  The Military Prosecutor's

25     office explained that he was not a soldier and returned it back to the

Page 15656

 1     regular Prosecutor; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I give a clarification?

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Does it say that this name of this person is being included with

 7     the other names?

 8        A.   May I just give one more clarification about this passage that

 9     begins with the words:  "Military Prosecutor's Office"?

10             JUDGE KWON:  By all means, Mr. Davidovic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Military Prosecutor's Office is

12     terminating this because they explained, he was not a member of the

13     Serbian Army.  From what I know and from the documents shown me by the

14     Prosecutor's Office - I mean by the OTP - we can see that those were

15     members of the Territorial Defence Staff in Zvornik.  The

16     Territorial Defence Staff gave them their weapons and equipment and paid

17     their salaries as two members of the armed forces they had under them.

18     This claim by the Military Prosecutor's Office they were not members of

19     the army means they were not militarily engaged in military units at that

20     time, and they're not even treating them as a military unit, but as a

21     paramilitary unit.  And that's how it ends, that's how the case ends.

22     Nothing was prosecuted in this case later, as far as I know.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   As far as you know.  But you say the Military Prosecutor's Office

25     terminated the case.  It didn't.  It returned it to the civilian

Page 15657

 1     prosecutor.

 2        A.   But they -- I mean, the Military Prosecutor's Office considered

 3     they had no jurisdiction.  They returned it to the civilian prosecutor.

 4        Q.   It was not termination.

 5        A.   I explained they returned it to the civilian Prosecutor's Office

 6     in Bijeljina.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1413, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 667.

12             Could we see the next page in Serbian.  Can we see page 3 in

13     Serbian.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   16 November 1992.  Is this an invitation to an expert witness,

16     Milenko Tomic, in the case of Vuckovic et al?

17        A.   Yes.  We can see that it is a summons.

18        Q.   So in the month of November, work continues on that case at the

19     Court in Bijeljina?

20        A.   Yes, we can see that from this summons.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1414, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D3655.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15658

 1        Q.   The Lower Court in Bijeljina is writing to the 1st Municipal

 2     Court in Belgrade on 24 December 1993; requests to question an accused.

 3     Before this Court, criminal proceedings of investigation are underway

 4     against the accused, Vojin Vuckovic, Rade Tanackovic and others; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Signed:  "Investigating Judge Biljana Simeunovic"?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1415, Your Honours.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 18846.

13             Is this a Rule 70 document?  Maybe it should not be broadcast.

14     We don't have to go into private session.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, it is a Rule 54 bis

16     document.  But at the moment, I can't really see what is redacted.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the redacted version --

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation continues]... There is

19     a redacted version, Your Honour, under that number.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  The redacted version is Exhibit P2818,

21     Your Honours.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you agree -- page 3, please, without being broadcast.

24             Do you agree, Mr. Davidovic, that this Centre of the

25     State Security Sector, already on the 2nd of July, 1992 -- can we see

Page 15659

 1     page 2 in Serbian.  In e-court, that means the first page in Serbian.

 2     The beginning, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, do you remember having been shown

 4     this document when examined by Madam Uertz-Retzlaff?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, I know about this

 6     document.  I'm not going to mention the names.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Don't tell the names.

 9        A.   I know.  I've been shown this, and I have it.

10        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, they were charged with looting in Zvornik from

11     28 June until 29 July, and we see here that in the beginning of July, the

12     process of investigation by this State Security Centre had already begun

13     against these people.  The State Security Service is displaying an

14     interest and conducting interviews, investigating the activities of this

15     group; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we mention the place where this

18     State Security Department is from?  Oh, we can see it.  It's not

19     redacted.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So the State Security Department from Valjevo is already

22     conducting investigation, even before the period when they were looting,

23     or, rather, during that period, investigative activities were already

24     being carried out against this group; correct?

25        A.   No, this is not an investigative activity.  It has not been

Page 15660

 1     approved by any relevant organ.  This is just a note of authorised

 2     officials who are submitting that to their superior organ about

 3     information they have.  It is initial information.

 4        Q.   Initial information; right?

 5        A.   Yes, which is submitted to the relevant organ, and in order to

 6     prosecute someone, to initiate proceedings.  Then it's a later stage of

 7     the proceedings.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we please have a look at 1D3665 so that we can also see first

10     whether there are any restrictions with regard to this document.  1D3665.

11     I think there are no reasons.

12             We do not need to broadcast this, just in case, though I think

13     there are no reasons not to.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Does it say here that on the 14th of December, 1992 - that's the

16     text - and then the 7th of December, 1992, Mali Zvornik, Risto Zaric, a

17     member of the National Security of the Republika Srpska MUP from Zvornik,

18     informed me about extremist activities from Vojin Vuckovic, Zuca, from

19     Umka, in the area of Podrinje, and other operative information?

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we have a translation.  It's

21     just been printed for the ELMO.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I'm just wondering why the Defence could not get the

23     translation in advance, while the Prosecution has it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this is a huge

25     case and our forces are really small, immeasurably smaller than the

Page 15661

 1     Prosecution has at its disposal.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  As pointed out several times, it cannot be an

 3     excuse.

 4             We'll proceed.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Davidovic, that this is a case of co-operation

 7     between the State Security Department in Valjevo and officials of

 8     State Security from Republika Srpska?  They are exchanging information

 9     about this group in December 1992?

10        A.   I cannot hear.  Yes, now I hear you.  I apologise.

11        Q.   So do you agree that in December 1992, the Valjevo RDB is

12     co-operating with a high-ranking official who is a member of the

13     National Security of Republika Srpska in collecting information about

14     this group?

15        A.   Yes.  I can see that Zaric went to Mali Zvornik and informed

16     members of the State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia about

17     information he had from Republika Srpska about persons who were citizens

18     of the Republic of Serbia.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see item 2 on

20     page 2:  "Other volunteers ..."

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Does it say down here, under item 1:

23             "Other volunteers from the area of Republika Srpska,

24     Dusan Vuckovic, son of Milan, also known as Repic"?

25             Is that correct?

Page 15662

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If you could assist us, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, as

 5     to the confidentiality of this document.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I see no reference to anything.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll admit this.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1416, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we now have 1D3667, please.  1D3667, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Is it correct that the same office, RDB Valjevo, once it had

13     collected information and carried out some activities, filed a criminal

14     report with the District Prosecutor's Office in Sabac against Vuckovic,

15     Dusan, also known as Repic, so he's number 1 now, and number 2 is

16     Vujin Vuckovic, Zuco?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Because there is grounds to suspect that as co-perpetrators, they

19     committed the crime -- war crimes against civilians?

20             And can we see the next page, please.

21             Under Article 142 of the Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of

22     Yugoslavia, and Dusan Vuckovic individually committed the crime of rape,

23     and so on and so forth, unlawful arrest, and everything else is listed

24     here; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15663

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can this be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1417, Your Honours.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   So nothing was terminated.  Investigation is just being expanded,

 7     and so is the indictment; correct?

 8        A.   No, it's not correct.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

10             Can we now please see 1D7375.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I please clarify why I said

12     that it's not correct?

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I am satisfied with any of your answers.  You say it's not so,

15     but the document says it is.

16        A.   The reason I say that is weighty, and I think the Trial Chamber

17     should be aware of that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, for the crimes which he

20     undoubtedly committed, and it is known in Serbia that he did.  And there

21     was later information provided by Zaric, who was in Zvornik at the time

22     when the crimes were committed, and who was familiar with the procedure

23     of filing criminal reports against them.  In Bijeljina, the procedure was

24     terminated after 30 days, and they were released from custody.

25             What was the basic condition for the Prosecutor's Office, once a

Page 15664

 1     criminal report is filed, to say that there are grounds for keeping

 2     someone in custody?  The first reason is that the person cannot leave the

 3     site where a crime was perpetrated -- or, rather, the area.  He has to be

 4     there.  And what happened in Bijeljina was that the same person was

 5     acquitted and charged with a different crime, which is qualified

 6     differently.  After that, there were reports sent to Belgrade from the

 7     Court that they are looking for information and so on.

 8             So now, 15 or 20 years later, we have the question:  Why was this

 9     not prosecuted?  It was, but we couldn't reach him.  He had gone to

10     Serbia, so he was out of reach.  But why did he leave for Serbia?  That

11     was a mistake.  He was released from custody.  And why, who ordered that?

12     That's the essential issue.

13             It's true that after that, Serbia collected information,

14     initiated proceedings against him in Sabac, but only after so many years

15     and only after all the other crimes that had already been committed.  And

16     we had him in custody for the crimes he had committed right there on the

17     spot.  And this Zaric, who is working as a highly-ranking official, was

18     also there.  He informed the Serbian MUP, but he did not inform the

19     Court, the organ that he should work with and to which he should submit

20     reports.  This is why I'm trying to say what the mistakes were made,

21     procedural mistakes.

22             The case was transferred to Serbia, but they were set free.  The

23     essence is that pressure was exerted on the Prosecutor's Office.  They

24     were set free.  And when the public began to discuss this, when the

25     newspapers reported about what was happening in Zvornik, then they

Page 15665

 1     couldn't pass over it in silence.  They had to prosecute him in Serbia,

 2     they had to do that.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can this be admitted?  It's already been admitted.  All right,

 5     thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   All right.  Mr. Davidovic, you arrested all these men.  You

 8     reported them, you drew up criminal reports.  Why didn't you report a war

 9     crime?

10        A.   We did report a war crime to the Military Court.  A war crime is

11     prosecuted on the basis of a decision made by the government - I'm not

12     sure which ministry at the time - namely, that the State Security should

13     process war crimes and file criminal reports.  And Public Security is in

14     charge of aggravated theft and such crimes, and war crimes are prosecuted

15     by military courts.  This is why it happened this way.

16        Q.   So you were aware of a war crime and you reported it?

17        A.   We had to be aware, and we had to report it.  Why was it

18     prosecuted?  These were the first cases in Republika Srpska which were

19     prosecuted, the first reports that were written about someone who

20     committed this sort of crime.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have a look at

22     paragraph 141 of your statement.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   It says:

25             "In the reports and statements which we took, we did not take any

Page 15666

 1     other information about those relating to theft and robbery.  That was

 2     what we investigated, but we didn't know that before these thefts and

 3     robberies, they had also committed murders.  They did murder a group of

 4     civilians at Celopek, and they got that report from MUP in Zvornik, and

 5     they were identified in that report and described as people who are prone

 6     to killings ..."

 7             And so on and so forth.

 8             So you only investigated their robbery and you reported them for

 9     robbery, and you wonder that the army sent it back to the civilian

10     judiciary, and you wondered that they were released from custody, but you

11     did not report them for war crimes?

12        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I was with my unit --

13        Q.   Sir, I know where you were.  Did you report them because they

14     committed a war crime?

15        A.   Please allow me.  I spent a month there.  In that one month, we

16     arrested, in additional to the Yellow Wasps, Arkan's group in Bijeljina,

17     the murderers of Salih Hukic in Bijeljina.  We also processed cases in

18     Brcko, the Yellow Wasps --

19        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, we would be grateful --

20        A.   -- Red Beret --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, hear him out.  I said this to you

22     several times.  Don't interrupt while the witness is answering your

23     question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need another two days.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

Page 15667

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He's not answering my question,

 2     Your Excellency.  That wasn't my question.  My question is Article 141.

 3     It only relates to Vuckovic and the Yellow Wasps.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, we were in charge of arresting

 5     these people and establishing law and order, professional services which

 6     were working as part of the SUP; that is to say, the Security Services,

 7     the Crime Prevention Service.  These were the departments which are in

 8     charge of specific areas.  I was not specifically charged with taking

 9     statements or writing criminal reports.  I oversaw activities of

10     disarming paramilitaries, and I was interested in knowing how far they

11     got in taking statements, collecting information, and filing criminal

12     reports.  I wanted to know what happened with this case later on, but I

13     couldn't physically or in any other way manage to process so many cases

14     and file criminal reports during 25 days that I was there.  I arrested

15     and disarmed paramilitary formations, the dogs of war, criminals,

16     thieves, murderers, and that was the reason why I worked in this way.

17     And then I handed it over to the service of the Ministry of the Interior,

18     headed by Stanisic and later on by Kovac, so that they would work on

19     collecting other facts which would help to throw light on other crimes,

20     such as thefts, and murders, and everything else.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  This is not contested, and we were

22     grateful to you for that and we expressed that publicly.

23             The question is this:  You're accusing the judiciary of

24     Republika Srpska that they did not act as you expected, and you say that

25     you reported a war crime and that they set him free.  However, you

Page 15668

 1     reported him for only having committed aggravated theft, and this is what

 2     paragraph 141 of your statement says; that at the moment, you were not

 3     aware of murders, nor were you collecting any other information, except

 4     information relating to theft?

 5        A.   Mr. Karadzic, let me go back to the beginning.

 6        Q.   Do not justify yourself.

 7        A.   I'm not justifying myself to you.  We were just establishing what

 8     they did.  That's what I was doing at the moment.  I took them in for

 9     aggravated theft, and the aggravated thefts were recorded, and that was

10     submitted to the Prosecutor's Office.  In the meantime, we also learned

11     that in the same area, they also committed war crimes.  There was also a

12     report about that, it had to be submitted to one or the other of the

13     relevant organs, to the MUP or Mico Stanisic.

14             On the day when we were having briefing in Zvornik with him, he

15     was informed about the detail that the same persons had committed war

16     crimes.  We were told that the war crimes are processed by the State

17     Security, or the Military Prosecutor's Office, and that we should only

18     submit criminal reports for aggravated theft and such crimes.  So we

19     didn't do that because there were other relevant organs.  We were doing

20     what was possible at the time so that people would be remanded in

21     custody.

22             When someone is remanded in custody, in the meantime, new

23     information is collected, and the request to include new crimes is also

24     added.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please slow down for the benefit of the court

Page 15669

 1     reporting.

 2             Yes.  Could you start again:  "When people are remanded in

 3     custody ..."?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once people are remanded in

 5     custody, then all information and facts about them are collected; that is

 6     to say, whether they committed aggravated thefts, robberies, rape,

 7     murder, war crimes, and so on.  This is part of processing these persons.

 8     And people who are experts for that do that.  There is the

 9     State Security Department.  There is the Public Security Department which

10     is in charge of crime prevention.  So whoever works in these services

11     works on these tasks.  They collect facts and information so that the

12     existing criminal report can be expanded with new information.  That's

13     the logical procedure, rather than releasing people from custody, without

14     waiting for the final results, to check what information is available

15     about such persons.

16             I'm not attacking the judiciary of Republika Srpska.  I'm just

17     talking about specific cases that they were in charge.  There were

18     others.  I could also give you other examples of cases which were not

19     processed.  Murders were committed, people were then released from

20     custody, and these cases were only completed a few years ago.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.

22        Q.   Can we say that paragraph 141 of your statement is correct or

23     not?  You investigated it, but you didn't know about the murders?

24        A.   I wouldn't put it that way, that we didn't know about the

25     murders.  We just did not deal with that.

Page 15670

 1        Q.   Let us read it literally.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, when we look at page 52 in the

 3     English, it says:

 4             "But we did know that prior to those thefts and robbery, they had

 5     also been committing murders."

 6             It says they did know.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  For the clarity, why don't we pull up the Krajisnik

 8     transcript.  It has a reference to the transcript in Krajisnik, so let's

 9     see what he did say at the time.  This is a summary of his evidence given

10     in Krajisnik.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Correct, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's do that.  The transcript page is --

13     I think it's 1D3734 - that's the e-court number - and transcript page,

14     page 14313.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, in which language did you give your statement?

17        A.   In Serbo-Croatian -- or, rather, Serbian.

18        Q.   You said here -- if you allow, I will read it:

19             [In English] "We did not take any other data, except for that

20     theft and robbery.  That was what we were looking into.  But we did know

21     that prior to those thefts and robbery, they had also been committing

22     murders.  I'm not talking about mass murder, but they did murder a group

23     of civilians at Celopek, and I got that report from the MUP in Zvornik."

24             [Interpretation] Why didn't you report murders in the criminal

25     report you filed?

Page 15671

 1        A.   I will go back to the beginning again.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, that has been answered, in my

 3     opinion.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now please see 1D3735.  In e-court, it's page 67, and in

 6     English, page 67 in e-court, please, from the Stanisic/Zupljanin case.

 7     Investigating Judge Biljana Simeunovic testified there.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Were you aware of this, and have you known this woman?

10        A.   Yes, I know that woman quite well, and I know that she was a

11     witness.  I don't know the details, but I know that she was a witness in

12     this trial.

13        Q.   And she signed the decision to release these men from custody

14     after the expiry of 30 days; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Let us look at this question:

17             [In English] "Were you able, at certain periods, to communicate

18     with, for instance, Pale?

19             "A.  I think there was ever -- there was never any need for me to

20     communicate with Pale.  I never called them, so I can't tell you much

21     about that."

22             JUDGE KWON:  Are we on the correct page?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  It's on page 67 in

24     e-court, lines 7 to 19.

25             Judge Biljana Simeunovic, lines 7 to 19:

Page 15672

 1             [In English] "Now, back in August 1992, if you had received this

 2     statement or any information from the civilian or military police about

 3     these crimes at the Celopek Cultural Centre, what would you have done,

 4     what actions would have you taken with regard to your criminal

 5     investigation in this matter?

 6             "A.  Well, for one, if I did receive -- if I had received this,

 7     and I didn't, and now we're just hypothesising here, so seeing that this

 8     was handled by the military police and knowing that this individual was

 9     detained probably pursuant to a ruling by the Military Court, I would

10     first get in touch with the prosecutor, or, rather, with the president of

11     my Court, we would then discuss it in the collegium, and I am certain

12     that we would have taken some steps and this person would not have been

13     released from custody."

14             [Interpretation] So the investigating judge that is in charge of

15     the investigation knows only what you wrote for her.  She did not know

16     about the war crimes committed; right?

17        A.   That is what she stated.  What did you want her to state, that

18     she knew about it and that she didn't do anything about it?  Do you know

19     that she's a judge in the war crimes tribunal in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20     She had to say that.  That was the only way she could have protected

21     herself, to say that she had acted appropriately, whereas facts say

22     otherwise.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 140 in e-court, can we have a

24     look at that now, from line 9 until line 13.  I read it a moment ago.

25     I can do it again:

Page 15673

 1             [In English] "Were you able at certain points to communicate

 2     with, for instance, Pale?

 3             "A.  I think there was ever -- there was never any need for me to

 4     communicate with Pale.  I never called them, so I can't tell you much

 5     about that."

 6             [Interpretation] Do you see, Mr. Davidovic, that you did not tell

 7     the truth, not to say that you lied?  Somebody intervened with this lady

 8     judge.

 9        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I would not be saying that kind of thing.  I came

10     from the inspectors who worked on that case and who worked in the Office

11     of the Prosecutor.  Obviously you are trying in every possible way to say

12     that you did not know about that.  Now, who asked for these persons to be

13     released from custody?  Why was it insisted upon that persons who had

14     serious criminal reports filed against them be released and have what

15     they did treated as mere theft?  How are their crimes being re-qualified?

16     How are they being set free?  All of this that followed was just formal

17     work of the Court to justify what had happened.

18             Now, that I lied, whether pressure was exerted or not, well, you

19     can see, yourself, that pressure was being brought.  They were being

20     released, assistance is being sought from Serbia, and many years later

21     Serbia was instituting proceedings because there was a great deal of

22     pressure coming from the public.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Mr. Karadzic put his

24     question while the witness was still answering.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Your question was overlapped so that it was not

Page 15674

 1     heard by the interpreters.

 2             But, Mr. Davidovic, in your answer, you said:

 3             "Why was it insisted upon that persons who had serious criminal

 4     reports filed against them be released?"

 5             What serious -- what criminal report are you referring to?  And

 6     when you say "serious criminal reports," what did you --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Theft and aggravated theft, that is

 8     what is referred to in the first criminal report that was filed with the

 9     Court.  When detention, 30-day detention, was ordered, that was what was

10     written in the criminal report, and then later on it was re-qualified so

11     that they would be released.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3790.

13             [In English] Sorry, I heard you earlier saying, Thank you.

14             [Interpretation] 1D3790.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you see that this is a list of persons who are

17     banned from entering the Serb Republic of BH?  Number 1 is

18     Vojin Vuckovic, Zuco, and the second one is Dusan Vuckovic, Repic.  Do

19     you see this list?

20        A.   Yes.  This is the first time I see it.

21        Q.   Do you see the other names?  You recognise some of them, don't

22     you?

23        A.   Yes --

24        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Davidovic, that Republika Srpska, only on the

25     13th of August, changed its name -- or, rather, from the Serb Republic of

Page 15675

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, it changed its name into Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   Believe me, I don't know these dates, and I have not kept abreast

 3     of all of these political decisions.  I'm not sure.  I cannot tell you

 4     anything with precision.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can this be admitted?  If we go all the way up until the end,

 7     there are 42 persons here who are banned from entering Republika Srpska.

 8             Actually, can we please look at the last page.

 9             42, can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1418, Your Honours.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.  Who banned

13     these persons from entering; the BH, or Serbia, or Republika Srpska?  I

14     haven't seen.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   That's why I asked you whether you knew that on the 13th of

17     August -- or, rather, up until the 13th of August, Republika Srpska was

18     called the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That is to say, this

19     was issued before the 13th of August.

20        A.   Who issued this?  Was it Serbia, or Republika Srpska, or --

21        Q.   How could Serbia ban entry into Republika Srpska?  This is a

22     document of Republika Srpska.

23        A.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let's show him the first page.

25             Just a second.  Could you read the last sentence of the last

Page 15676

 1     page?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The above-mentioned persons are

 3     banned from entering the territory of Serb Republic of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 5             Do you know why I asked that question?  As we were working on

 6     disarming paramilitaries at that point in time in Brcko and in Bijeljina,

 7     as we could not have these persons prosecuted, these persons who came

 8     with official IDs of the Republic of Serbia, war uniforms and equipment

 9     that they purportedly got from the Serbian MUP, we deported these persons

10     from Brcko and Bijeljina.  We boarded them on buses, and we brought them,

11     unarmed, to Raca, to the border with Serbia, along with this list of

12     persons who we were sending back.  That is why I asked whether perhaps

13     some of these persons had been banned from entering.  These were persons

14     who came as paramilitaries or formations sent by the MUP.  I'm referring

15     to the Red Berets.  That's why I asked who prohibited this, because the

16     MUP of the Republic of Serbia later also banned certain persons from

17     going to Republika Srpska.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 19541.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, let us see what my attitude was towards the

23     military judiciary and what kind of pressure I exerted.  19541, 65 ter.

24             So on the 1st of January, 1994, to the Ministry of Defence and to

25     the president of the Supreme Military Court.  Do you see this text?

Page 15677

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   "Our hitherto acquired knowledge and official reports on the

 3     activities of the military prosecution in Bijeljina testify to numerous

 4     flaws, which primarily refer to the release from custody of persons

 5     detained under reasonable suspicion of having committed grave criminal

 6     offences, carrying severe penalties.

 7             "Such omissions have contributed to the deterioration of the

 8     general security and political situation in Brcko and Bijeljina.

 9             "The situation demands that an inspection of work of the

10     Military Prosecutor's Office in Bijeljina be conducted immediately and

11     that possible errors or criminal offences of not undertaking the

12     necessary actions on the part of the prosecution be established.

13             "It is your duty to act in line with the inspection's findings

14     and inform me thereof."

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I see this.

17     It is 1994, but the period when I was there was 1992 and the times were

18     different.  That was the beginning of the war and all of this that was

19     happening in 1992.

20             As for this that you wrote up in 1994, my hat is off to you, and

21     I congratulate you on having done that.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The 1st of January, 1994 --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Your questions were not properly

25     reflected in the transcript.  What was your first question in relation to

Page 15678

 1     this?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Whether Mr. Davidovic knew that I

 3     had exerted this kind of pressure on the military judiciary, and --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And your second question was about the date of this

 5     letter?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic said that this was

 7     1994.  However, this pertains to 1992 and 1993, because this was the 1st

 8     of January, 1994.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Isn't that right, Mr. Davidovic?

11        A.   Yes, but I spoke about the period of 1992, the beginning of the

12     war, when paramilitaries came to Bosnia, and when institutions were just

13     being established, and when work was only starting.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Could this please be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1419, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2752, could we have that, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While we are on the subject of my attitude towards the judiciary,

21     and at this point in time the military judiciary, do you see that this is

22     the 7th of August, 1994, on the authority that I --

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it's a duplicate of

24     65 ter 22019, and we could see, then, the translation.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  Let's up-load it.

Page 15679

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you release it?  It hasn't been released.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It seems not working.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Then I'm going to ask you, Mr. Davidovic, to confirm or deny that

 8     this is a document asking for speeding up the procedure involved.  We

 9     sent a document earlier on, asking about the case of the commander of the

10     Brod Battalion, and then the second paragraph, it says:

11             "Since we have been informed by the top judiciary organs of the

12     republic that the case has not yet reached the judiciary organs, we ask

13     you to urgently inform us about measures taken and about the stage that

14     has been reached."

15             And it signed by Gordan Milicic, on the authority of the

16     president, the adviser for security.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter:  We did not hear the question

18     and we did not hear the beginning of the answer.  This is too fast.

19             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, just a second.  You started answering

21     too quickly, so the interpreters couldn't hear it all.  And they also

22     didn't hear the last part of your question, Mr. Karadzic.  Could you

23     check whether it's reflected or not?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The text was read out very

25     fast, so we only did a sight translation of the text.  We did not hear

Page 15680

 1     the question at all.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but for you to put the question again.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You say here that this reflects an effort made to establish rule

 5     of law.  Do you agree that this is an urging with the judiciary on the

 6     basis of the fact that we had heard that some things had not arrived yet?

 7        A.   Well, yes, this document or this kind of urgent document that is

 8     being sent in order to have things speeded up shows that an effort is

 9     being made to establish legality.  It is 1994, and it should be pointed

10     out that as time went by in Republika Srpska, in certain segments the

11     authorities started functioning, in part.  That's for sure.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can this be admitted?

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification as Exhibit D1420.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             1D3774.  There is a translation.  1D3774.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Please look at this, addressed to the Main Staff of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska:  "Confidential, deliver immediately," and then there is

20     a stain.  A request is made to submit a short progress report on the work

21     of military disciplinary courts, specifying the number of disciplinary

22     violations and the measures and sanctions, taken the problems and

23     shortcomings in exercising jurisdiction and proceedings before military

24     disciplinary courts.

25             Do you agree that this is an effort to re-assert the rule of law?

Page 15681

 1        A.   Yes, yes, it does.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1421, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2736 now, please.

 7             Could we zoom in.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree that Radovan Karadzic hereby requests the Supreme

10     Military Court of Republika Srpska and the Supreme Military Prosecutor's

11     Office of Republika Srpska to explain why the trial is scheduled for 26

12     September 1994, while the accused are free?  The first three accused --

13     sorry, the first seven accused --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters kindly ask Mr. Karadzic to slow

15     down.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Seven --

18             JUDGE KWON:  You have to slow down.  They lost you again, you're

19     so fast.  Start from:  "The first seven accused ..."

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought they could see it.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Seven of the accused spent only three days in remand, and three

23     of the major accused spent only 30 days.  That's all the investigating

24     judge could do, because the military prosecutor did not submit a motion

25     to remand in custody.  Such gross omissions should not occur.

Page 15682

 1             And now I have to intervene with the translation.  The

 2     translation should properly read "must not occur," not "should."

 3             Do you agree that the third paragraph says the judiciary must not

 4     allow - not "should," but "must" - not allow persons accused of murder to

 5     await trial at liberty, nor that in a period of imminent threat of war, a

 6     full 15 months elapsed from the time of murder until the beginning of

 7     trial?

 8             Do you agree, Mr. Davidovic, that I cannot interfere in the

 9     judgement, but I do interfere with their being at large?

10        A.   Of course.  This is an effort to restore the rule of law.  But

11     how all this came about, I don't know.  I can't comment.  When they

12     were -- when there was unrest in Banja Luka and there was general

13     discontent because people accused of murder were at large, there was

14     public dissatisfaction.  And perhaps that caused you to write this

15     document, in response to this unrest, or maybe this was something regular

16     of your own initiative.  If the latter, I can only welcome it and

17     congratulate you.  But, remember, there were roadblocks and barricades.

18     The army was very unhappy.  There were killings, suspects being released

19     from prison.  There was general discontent, and perhaps you wrote this

20     under this pressure.

21        Q.   For your information, September 1993 was resolved by police

22     means, and nobody was tried.  This is a regular thing, and it's about

23     murders.  Does that make you happy?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

Page 15683

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I think the witness has already

 2     said that he does not know about this particular, and he isn't sure

 3     whether it refers to a particular situation, or whether this was routine,

 4     that it was done frequently.  What we have here is a reference to a

 5     particular case that the witness cannot help us with, so I do not think

 6     that this is the right person to get this document admitted through.  We

 7     should know about that case, and why this particular letter was sent, and

 8     whether it was related to just this particular case and not, in general,

 9     the attitude at that time.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to respond, or should I ask Mr. Robinson

11     to help you?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last paragraph.

13             [In English] Just pay attention to the last paragraph.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think you already

15     understand the point that this is refuting the witness's testimony that

16     no efforts were made to punish people, and, in fact, that Dr. Karadzic,

17     himself, had personally seen to it had people were released.  And here is

18     evidence showing that, in fact, he is encouraging authorities in various

19     cases to enforce the rule of law and to keep people detained.  So I think

20     it's very relevant to this witness's testimony and it ought to be

21     admitted.  It's perhaps something that the witness has no personal

22     knowledge of, but it's definitely relevant to the subject of his

23     testimony and directly contradicts it.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can only add that the last

Page 15684

 1     paragraph says that this applies generally to all proceedings.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Separate from the weight to be given in relation to

 3     this document, in particular in relation to the witness's evidence, the

 4     Chamber finds this document to be relevant, and we'll admit it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1422, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, could you leave five minutes before

 7     the end of today's session so I can issue an oral ruling.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I also would need to state

 9     something in relation to an exhibit that was admitted, the one from

10     Serbia.  I can also do this after -- afterwards.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we adjourn for today?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just deal with one more

13     document related to this?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3786.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   That was my letter to the Supreme Military Prosecutor's Office

18     and the Military Court.  Do you agree that here, five days later, my

19     adviser is addressing the Main Staff and repeating that the president of

20     the republic makes it incumbent on the judiciary to urgently carry out an

21     inspection and review of all cases involving murder, with priority given

22     to crimes against life and limb, against war profiteering, and against

23     property, and sanctions must be maximum?  It must not be allowed that

24     people accused of murder await trial at liberty and that unnecessary

25     procrastination must not occur?  Do you agree that this is addressed not

Page 15685

 1     only to the Military Office of the Prosecutor and the

 2     Supreme Military Court, but also to the Main Staff of the VRS, asking

 3     them to make sure that the decision involved is enforced?

 4        A.   You're asking me?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   I agree that all this contributes to reinforcing the work of the

 7     judiciary.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, and then I

 9     won't go on because you need time.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1423, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  We will continue tomorrow

13     at 9.00.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do we need to go into private session to deal with

16     your submission, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour, that's not necessary.

18             It is related to Exhibit D1416, the document from Serbia that we

19     spoke about.  And I said before there are no protective measures, and,

20     indeed, there are no protective measures for the time being.  However,

21     this document was provided according to Rule 54 bis, and as it was

22     disclosed only recently, the Republic of Serbia has not been informed

23     about this, and they may perhaps want to ask protective measures.  In

24     particular, what they usually do is have the person -- the executive

25     making the memo redacted and the recipients.

Page 15686

 1             Therefore, my proposal would be to have it temporarily under

 2     seal, and we will inform the Government of Serbia and inquire with them

 3     whether they want redactions.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think there will be an objection.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  That's reasonable.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll put it under seal for the moment.

 7             I think it's safer to go into private session to give this oral

 8     ruling.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15687











11  Page 15687 redacted. Private session.















Page 15688

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             We'll rise and resume tomorrow at 9.00.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of June,

 6                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.