1 Thursday, 30 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Yes. I heard that you had
6 something to raise, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.
8 Yes. I wanted to state the position of the Defence concerning the time
9 we have available for this witness. This witness has more than 200
10 paragraphs. There are several hundreds allegations, very general
11 statement which can and must be questioned, challenged, and refuted. If
12 the Defence does not get this opportunity, then any of these allegations
13 may become a basis for a sentencing judgement regardless of whether the
14 Trial Chamber or an Appeals Chamber would give weight to this witness. I
15 don't even have one full minute for each allegation which he expresses.
16 And in addition to that, we still need to cover in full, Zvornik,
17 Bijeljina, on the ground, Vojkan Djurkovic, Brcko, the supposed sins of
18 the police of Republika Srpska and high officials of Republika Srpska and
19 my and my family's connection with criminals and so on and so forth. The
20 Defence can clarify and prove all of that if it is given the opportunity.
21 If it is not, then it makes no point to defend oneself. With such
22 witnesses who are so general and free to state unfounded claims, if the
23 Defence has no chance to challenge that, and this is only a question of
24 time. So I would ask to be given this day and tomorrow for this witness.
25 It will be easier for the Trial Chamber to see everything, because these
1 witnesses have managed to put the Prosecution on the wrong track, and
2 they can do the same thing with the Trial Chamber, so as not to delude
3 the Trial Chamber.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Can the accused please repeat the last
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I notice that we were very
7 efficient last week. As for Belgrade, this has not been recorded. We
8 have the transcript of his testimony at the court in Belgrade. It was
9 the trial of people from Zvornik connected with the Yellow Wasps, and the
10 Trial Chamber should see this. The Defence will present that.
11 We were efficient last week. You concluded that yourselves.
12 Seven witnesses for five days, and for me personally and for the Defence
13 as a whole, this rhythm was very exhausting, but if it is, we should have
14 enough time available to question each witness as necessary.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, excuse me. Your microphone seems to
17 be on.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. It appeared that one of the
21 microphones was on. I just wanted to alert the Court, and I think the
22 registrar took care of that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we allowed you seven hours for your
1 cross-examination, and you have spent almost five hours, so two hours
2 left. That's my understanding. If you use till the end of today, you
3 will have in total nine and a half, extra two and a half in addition to
4 the original seven hours. So that's the time you will have for your
5 cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will try to cover as
7 many topics as I can in that time, but I'm afraid I might make errors due
8 to speeding up.
9 JUDGE MORRISON: [Previous translation continues] ... Dr.
10 Karadzic, can I simply suggest that you concentrate on the specific
11 matters and leave out the general ones. In terms of allocation of time,
12 I think you'll be better served that way.
13 JUDGE KWON: Let's bring in the witness.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to raise a
17 redaction of matter. It's about redaction of transcript, and I would
18 like to do this orally so that the Defence also is aware of why we do
19 that, but it needs to be in private session.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll go back -- go into private session.
21 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's bring in the witness.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, while we're doing that, I would
3 like to advise you that with respect to the Prosecution's motion for
4 leave to reply concerning the ICMP motion, we object to grounds 1 and 2,
5 and we don't object to them replying on ground 3. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 WITNESS: MILORAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Davidovic. I hope you had a good
11 rest. Yes. We'll try hard to conclude your evidence today. In the
12 meantime, I would appreciate it if you could concentrate on answering the
13 questions in a brief manner.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue your cross-examination.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
18 A. Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.
19 Q. I want to show you a document. Did you know the
20 National Assembly of Republika Srpska adopted a law on the obligation to
21 submit information about the commission of crimes and that I promulgated
22 this law on the 4th of January, 1994, in early 1994. It obliged everyone
23 who knew anything about crimes to submit the relevant documents.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7835. 1D3785, excuse me.
25 Unfortunately, the translation is not completed yet.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you please have a look whether this is a decree on the
3 promulgation of the law on obligatory submission of information about
4 committed crimes against humanity and the international law.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can we please see the next page. As you know, the laws are
7 adopted by the Assembly, and the president declares them to be in force.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you agree that it says here that whoever has information or
10 items which may be used to prove crimes against humanity and
11 international law that were committed during internal armed conflict and
12 the civil war in the territory of Republika Srpska and other territory of
13 the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, which began in 1992 and which as specific
14 crimes are described under chapter 16 of the Criminal Code of Republika
15 Srpska is obliged to put these items or information at the disposal or,
16 as necessary, submit them to a relevant body and so on and so forth?
17 A. Yes. One can see from the law that it is emphasised what is the
18 purpose of all this, but if you would allow me, I would make a comment.
19 When I was in the territory of Republika Srpska in 1992, I
20 informed and warned Minister Mico Stanisic that a team should be set up
21 or a department or a separate organ which would be a part of the MUP and
22 which would deal only with the crimes which had been committed and had
23 not been investigated, though there was information about that. He
24 agreed, but I can see that it was only in April 1994 that there was an
25 attempt to do that. Was that too late? It's never too late, but perhaps
1 this should have been done from the first day.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Davidovic, you answered the question, and you
3 proceeded to make further comments. I would appreciate it if you make
4 your answers a bit simpler unless requested by the accused or by the
6 Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Just to clarify this, Mr. Davidovic. Do you agree that this is a
10 law which obliges others who have such information and that perhaps the
11 ministry or the government did set up specific bodies or the like, as you
12 had proposed? Is there such a possibility?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Can we please see the last page, Article 6. It
16 "Whoever refuses to place at the disposal of a relevant body for
17 the collection of information on crimes against humanity or international
18 law which have been committed as described under Article 1, paragraph 1
19 of this law or who prevents such submission shall be sentenced for a
20 crime by a fee or a prison sentence of up to one year."
21 So do we have a punishment included here for the suppression of
22 such documents or information?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted?
1 JUDGE KWON: What is the 65 ter number of this? It's 3750
2 instead of 7835. Yes. I confirmed it. That will be marked for
4 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI 1424, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3785 is actually 3785. That
6 should be the 65 ter number.
7 JUDGE KWON: Correct.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then there might be a translation
9 as well. Fine. Could we now please have 1D3779.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you agree that this is my order to the Main Staff of the Army
12 of Republika Srpska, to the Supreme Court-Martial, and the Military
13 Prosecutor's Office dated the 15th of December, 1994 by which I order
14 that there should be co-operation with the Supreme Court-Martial and
15 prosecutor's office of the army in accordance with the law and that
16 instructions be issued to security organs in order to enable the
17 operation of judiciary tasks?
18 A. I'm sorry, I just can't see the date.
19 Q. You can see it in the English version.
20 A. Oh, yes. The 15th of December. Yes, I confirm that this order
21 relates to your order on the activities the relevant organs.
22 Q. Do you agree that this is strictly confidential, that this is an
23 internal document and that it says that the order must be executed by the
24 15th of January, 1995, and that I must be informed?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1425, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 1D3770.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you please have a look at these two versions, Serbian or
8 English, whichever you find more legible. On the 5th of January, 1995,
9 the military prosecutor, Lieutenant-Colonel Nebojsa Supic, acted in
10 accordance with my previous order and says:
11 "In regard to the order of the president of the republic of 15th
12 of December 1994, we enclose instructions," which I ordered should be
13 drawn up and disseminated.
14 Can we please see the following page?
15 He had already drawn it up on the 29 of December, and on the 5th
16 of January he sent it, and it is prescribed here what the military police
17 and the security organs are obliged to do in order to help military
18 courts and military prosecutor's offices.
19 Do you agree that while you were there neither civilian nor
20 military judiciary were fully developed and there were -- there was also
21 confusion about the jurisdiction of the courts and prosecutors' offices?
22 A. Yes, you are right about that.
23 Q. Can we please show the following page just for the witness's
24 inspection. We don't have to read out anything, but I would like the
25 witness to see what were all the things that were envisaged.
1 It says here in the penultimate paragraph:
2 "On the basis of collected information, security organs shall
3 draw up a criminal report in which they will state the evidence which
4 were found when information was being collected ..."
5 And so on and so forth.
6 Is this the usual ending of the previous procedure?
7 A. Yes. Instructions are issued with all details about how to act.
8 This is not contested.
9 Q. Thank you. Would you like to read through it or can you
10 recognise this as the usual working procedure?
11 A. This is instructions on work. It is clear, and there is no room
12 for any improvisation.
13 Q. Can we please see the last page. Would you agree that it is
14 ordered here that it should be ensured that an on-site investigation is
15 carried out, that warrant arrests should be implemented and so on?
16 A. Yes. These are all activities which are envisaged for criminal
17 prosecution or as part of it.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted, please?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1426, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now please have
23 65 ter 13395.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Davidovic, can we see from these documents that the time of
1 chaos was over and that the rule of law is being implemented?
2 A. Yes, I agree. This is already 1994 and 1995. After the
3 Vance-Owen Plan, many things changed.
4 Q. Thank you. Can I now ask you to have a look at this. It's
5 Republika Srpska, the president of the republic is writing to the
6 National Assembly of Republika Srpska. It is a proposal of conclusions
7 in order to improve the situation in the domain of penal policy.
8 Would you agree and are you aware that the president of the
9 republic is authorised to send such proposals of conclusions to the
10 Assembly, even proposal of laws and other documents?
11 A. I agree. This is your right and your obligation.
12 Q. Thank you. Can you now please have a look at the overview. It
13 says here in the first paragraph:
14 "On the basis of information prepared by the Ministry of Justice
15 and administration it shows that in 1994, out of a total of 175.527 cases
16 the number of cases that remained undecided in the regular courts was
17 76.466 or 43 per cent. In other words, they did resolve almost 100.000
19 A. Yes. Or 49 per cent.
20 Q. Yes, they did not decide in 43 per cent; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in 1993, 49 were unsettled and then it says according to the
23 data on penal policy in the regular courts in 1994, provided by the
24 republican prosecutor's office, the situation without the Bijeljina
25 senior public prosecutor's office is as follows and then we have the
1 information. It's for 1994; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The total is 102 -- 1.256 convictions. Of this, prison sentences
4 304 -- or 504? No, 304. And then fines and everything else.
5 Can we please see the next page, and in English we can keep the
6 one we see on the screen now.
7 Now, after number 14: "Proceeding only from the number of
8 convictions and approved appeals, I have concluded that on the whole the
9 situation in the area of penal policies unsatisfactory."
10 Can we see the next page in English and have the same page in
12 Which can have detrimental consequences, et cetera. Now it says:
13 "Taking advantage of its constitutional powers --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Karadzic please read more slowly.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, without showing the proper page, the
16 interpreters have difficulty in following you. Otherwise, please -- you
17 have to slow down. We changed the page, and then you just kept that
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian page is correct.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. That was a preamble. Let us leave the conclusions, all courts,
22 in English.
23 Is it the case that I am suggesting to the National Assembly to
24 adopt these conclusions:
25 "1. All courts (regular and military) shall be required to step
1 up their work on all cases, especially in criminal cases."
2 And since we can all read for ourselves, do you agree that there
3 are five conclusions here? We can't see the fifth in Serbian. The
4 second conclusion is that all courts be required to pass more stringent
5 sentences so that if sentencing range is 1 to 5, they should sentence to
6 5. Then the Ministry of the Interior should intensify its work on
7 detecting perpetrators. Then 4, that the public prosecutor and supreme
8 military prosecutor report to the Assembly every three months on the
9 situation in the area of penal policy and the problems related.
10 Can we see the last page in Serbian.
11 "The working group for drafting of a uniform Criminal Code is
12 required," et cetera, et cetera.
13 You are familiar with our political system. Does the president
14 of the republic have other tools at his disposal except to suggest to the
15 government and the Assembly certain measures that he believes should be
16 taken? Can he do anything else apart from the MUP, et cetera?
17 A. No. No, nothing except what can be seen from these orders.
18 These are your constitutional responsibilities and powers, as far as I
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1427, Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Davidovic, the Defence is required to shed light and elicit
2 details concerning your statement to make sure what is what. In
3 paragraph 158 of your statement, you described your encounter with
4 Vojkan Djurkovic. He asked you, "Who do you think you are, protecting
5 the Muslim?" Et cetera, et cetera. And then in his defence, he showed
6 you a paper, a document, signed by Mr. Krajisnik authorising him to expel
7 Muslims. In other words, to carry out a humane removal or transfer of
8 the Muslim people using the police, et cetera. And then you say you
9 approached Dragan Micic, an MP at the National Assembly of
10 Republika Srpska. You told him what you had seen, that document, et
11 cetera, et cetera, and Micic told you then that he was unhappy about the
12 expulsions of Muslims and he had discussed the situation with Djurkovic
13 himself. Djurkovic had shown him the same document. Djurkovic did not
14 hide the fact that he had that document or who had got it from, and he
15 said he had seen Krajisnik -- Micic had said he had seen Krajisnik about
16 seven or ten days later, and Krajisnik told him to stay out of it.
17 65 ter, please --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Karadzic repeat the number.
19 JUDGE KWON: Please repeat the number.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 7066.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. This is a decision appointing a war commissioner's office for the
23 municipality of Bijeljina, and the members are named. The first one is
24 Dragan Micic, MP. Is that the same person?
25 A. Yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: We don't have English translation of this. We'll
3 mark it for identification.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1428, Your Honours.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. We can see from this that I appointed these people and authorised
7 them to be war commissioners and to assist the authorities of Bijeljina;
8 correct? These were very prominent people, including Dragan Andjelic,
9 President of the Executive Board; Dr. Jovo Vojnovic, vice-president of
10 the municipality; and a certain Mr. Arsenijevic, the manager of an
11 enterprise; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can we now see 1D3673. Do you know that in the Krajisnik case,
14 Mr. Dragoljub Micic, whom we call Dragan, made a statement? You
15 mentioned it yesterday. He gave a statement to the Defence team of
16 Momcilo Krajisnik. Do you recall saying that?
17 Are you receiving me? Do you recall saying that?
18 A. I've never seen this statement by Micic. I'm just reading it.
19 Q. I mean in the Krajisnik case.
20 A. I mean the same thing.
21 Q. We now ask Mr. Micic to give a statement for our case, and in
22 that statement he says Vojkan did not show him any authorisation to expel
23 Muslims, and he had no contact with Vojkan, in fact, and that he himself
24 initiated with the police that Djurkovic should be arrested, which was
25 done twice. And then it says the leadership of SDS Bijeljina filed a
1 criminal complaint against Vojkan Djurkovic. All this is happening at
2 the time when the SDS was the governing party in Bijeljina.
3 Did you know that prominent people from the SDS and the municipal
4 authorities filed criminal reports and Djurkovic was arrested?
5 A. In 1992 and 1993, I don't know that he was arrested. He was
6 brought in a couple of times for certain incidents, personal settlement
7 of accounts, something of that sort, but that he was ever brought in for
8 ethnic cleansing or expulsions of Muslims, I didn't know. But if you
9 allow me, can I say something about this statement by Micic?
10 Q. Please, but briefly.
11 A. You see, he denies that I was ever with him, that he showed me
12 that, and the distance between Vojkan Djurkovic and him is like 200
13 metres between their offices. And as he told me, as he says in the last
14 paragraph, why did I state this. And after that conversation with me, he
15 stopped any contact with him. That's not true. Instead, when I
16 returned, he said to me, "Please don't mix me up in that. I don't want
17 to get involved. I don't want any trouble."
18 I am in touch with him to date, and we participated in a public
19 debate together. We were sitting together, the three or four of us. So
20 what it says in this statement, of course it's his right to say whatever
21 he wants, but I have no reason to make up his involvement or anything.
22 Q. Let me read part of this, which is important for the record.
23 "Based on the above, I assert --"
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I just wanted to correct you. What is
1 denied by the witness has no bearing at all. You said it is important
2 for the record. It is not. Unless this is to be admitted, reading out
3 the content of the statement has nothing to do with any factual
4 assessment. Take it into account.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Let me just say that in this statement Micic said he would not
7 say good day to you, but he said you were not in touch, and he says he
8 holds it against you that you gave an inaccurate statement; correct?
9 A. That's what's written here.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this statement be admitted?
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I --
12 JUDGE KWON: I -- we don't need your assistance,
13 Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.
14 There's no basis to admit this at all, Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's why I wanted to read the
16 gist of it. The gist is that this witness -- this gentleman, Mr. Micic,
17 refutes what this witness is saying.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Put the question to the witness. What is
19 important here is the witness's answer to the question.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In that case it has
21 been answered.
22 Can we now see 1D3672.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You say you don't know that he had been reported by prominent
25 representatives of the SDS for his treatment of Muslims. You know that
1 he was brought in for other offences.
2 A. Yes. He was brought in because he got into brawls with some
3 people, but I never heard that he was brought in for ethnic cleansing of
4 the Muslims. I've never had occasion to hear that, maybe you can show me
5 something. I know that he did that during the war without running into
6 any trouble.
7 Q. Please take a look. Is this a document from the president of the
8 Bijeljina Municipal Assembly, chairman of the Executive Board of
9 Bijeljina, president of the municipal SDS board, et cetera, to the public
10 security centre?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. "Request to bring in and start proceedings against citizen
13 Vojislav Djurkovic and his associate Risto Marjan from Bijeljina, because
14 on the night of 22nd and 23rd July, 1995, without the knowledge or
15 approval of the authorised representatives of Bijeljina municipality,
16 they took away by force about 50 Muslims from Mount Majevica."
17 And 2: "Likewise at about noon on 23rd July 1995 in a public
18 place in the area outside the hospital in Bijeljina, before more than 100
19 people, Djurkovic publicly and loudly threatened and insulted the
20 people's deputy, that is, MP Dragoljub Micic, saying that he would muddy
21 the Drina River with a deputy."
22 Does it mean he would throw the man into the Drina River?
23 A. That's probably what he meant. Let's just look at the date.
24 That was written on 24 July 1995.
25 Q. Thank you. We can see that.
1 A. That's the end of the war.
2 Q. Does it say that he threatened he would take him to Tuzla himself
3 and made other threats?
4 A. Yes. That was not unusual for him.
5 Q. Can we see the next page in Serbian. Can you see the signatures
6 of these people? We can see the signatures on the original report.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And Dr. Novakovic is one of the signatories.
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1429, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Could you now look at paragraph 116 of your statement, 116. You
16 say that Jelisic -- I'll read in English.
17 [In English] "Jelisic asked me who I was and spoke for so long
18 that the call was traced. So Jelisic was arrested only to be released by
19 following day. Dr. Milan Novakovic, president of the Bijeljina Municipal
20 Board of the SDS announced on radio that the Jelisic factory was the most
21 productive at expulsion of the -- and murder of Muslims."
22 [Interpretation] Is that the same Novakovic whose name we saw on
23 the report?
24 A. That's the same Dr. Novakovic who stated in 1992 when those
25 killings happened, camps were set up and Muslims were expelled from
1 Brcko, he said that the most productive factory of this kind was the one
2 that Jelisic ran, and that's what he said publicly.
3 Q. Was he proud of the fact or was he being sarcastic?
4 A. I don't think so. I think he had other motivations.
5 Q. How can you say he was proud of it? He was a psychiatrist, a
6 very prominent person, and he was in favour, as we saw he advocated the
7 rule of law and he was a member of the Assembly that was passing these
9 A. Mr. Karadzic, I know Milan Novakovic very well. Before this war
10 started, I took Milan Novakovic three times to a mental hospital for
11 treatment for his alcohol abuse. I know him very well. I know his
12 inclinations and weaknesses. I know that he had certain very bad times,
13 because he was a chronic alcoholic.
14 Q. Well, see what you think about various people and how many people
15 you find okay, but we'll just admit this document.
16 A. Please don't comment. I only confirmed what I said in my
17 statements earlier. I'm not talking casually about people. I'm only
18 answering questions, and you asked me about that man.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D3775.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you see that this is my memo, dated the 31 of August, 1994,
22 sent to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, the MUP of
23 Republika Srpska, and the command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the
24 president of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, and the President of
25 the Executive Board of the municipal -- municipality of Bijeljina, in
1 which I informed them -- it reads, "I inform you that on the occasion of
2 the latest" -- we have a problem with translation.
3 "I inform you that on the occasion of the latest reports on the
4 problems relating to the Muslim population in Bijeljina, in particular as
5 regards the treatment of Muslims who are members of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska, I have formed a working group with the following
7 composition: General Bogdan Subotic, chief of the military office of the
8 president of the republic; Goran Milinic, security advisor; Petko Budisa,
9 assistant manager of the public security department of MUP.
10 The task of this working group is to monitor the situation on the
11 ground and submit to me a report with a proposal of measures. And you
12 are obliged to present to me all available data and facts concerning this
13 issue to the working group.
14 Do you see that this commission was set up, that it consisted of
15 highly-ranking officials and that it was instructed to see what the
16 situation on the ground was?
17 A. Yes, I can see that. I don't know if you have the report of this
18 commission. I would like to see it if you do, and I guess this has to do
19 with the problems that the Muslims who were enlisted in the VRS were
21 Q. This is what the document reads.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it admitted?
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. It says here Muslim population, and in particular the Muslim
25 soldiers in the VRS. Correct? The Muslim population. That's what it
2 A. Yes. It reads so, but if you allow me, I think I can clarify
3 because I think these were the problems which arose with people who were
4 at the front, and meanwhile their families were rounded up and taken to
5 the separation line and then allowed to go in the direction of Tuzla.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1430, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 65 ter 7953. I
11 don't think we have the Serbian version of this one. This is my letter.
12 It don't have to be broadcast if -- though I don't think there are any
13 reasons not to broadcast it. Can Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff please tell us what
14 her position is?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't see a problem with a letter being
16 sent to the ICRC being broadcast.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's proceed.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. So as you can see, but let me not read it. Can you read English?
21 A. I? No.
22 Q. Then I will read it out to you, and then it will be translated.
23 "[In English] This is a brief note to let you know that the
24 recent events in Bijeljina and Janja involving members of the Muslim
25 minority have been totally misinterpreted by the media as well as
1 officials of international organisations such as ... [No interpretation].
2 "[In English] We are not, repeat, not conducting a policy of
3 ethnic cleansing, nor are our local authorities in any way implicated in
4 what has been going on. However, we recognise that the problem existed
5 and it is my firm intention to solve it. A start has already been made:
6 the regional police head has been replaced. I am also taking certain
7 other steps to deal with this matter, but I ask you to be patient and let
8 me get on with this. Finally, I ask you to remember similar events in --
9 in the Prijedor area some time ago. We had the same problem of
10 extremists taking law in their own hands. We addressed that problem and
11 solved it soon thereafter. The same will be true of Bijeljina and
13 [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic, the problems existed. You
14 concluded yourself that the initial chaos began to ease as the rule of
15 law set in. You saw that in August I sent a commission, and do you
16 remember that at the time the chief of the police in Bijeljina was
17 replaced, not because he persecuted anyone but because he was not able to
18 prevent this? And you can see this letter in which Dr. Kuhn is informed
19 about this.
20 Do you realise that the existence of problems implies the efforts
21 of the state and that the issue of the extremists is one that you cannot
22 blame on the state policy and the state organs. The problem exists. It
23 is -- this is realised, and then we work on resolving it.
24 A. Yes. I would agree with that. Can you just remind me, who was
25 this chief of police that you replaced? I cannot remember. And then I
1 will answer the second part of your question.
2 Q. I don't know when Vajo Andric was there. You know these people
3 from Bijeljina.
4 A. This is why I asked you. I wanted to know who this was, who was
5 replaced, and at what time.
6 Q. September 1994.
7 A. It could have been only Branko Stevic who was replaced at the
8 time, because after September 1991, I don't know who else could have been
9 there in that period. However, it doesn't really matter. Let me not
10 enter into any arguments with you. It's obvious from this memo that you
11 were aware of the facts, that there was pressure against you from
12 international organisations and the public and that for this reason when
13 you faced the problems you made efforts by writing the letter setting up
14 commissions, removing the chief in order to change the situation. It's a
15 fact and it's true.
16 Q. But, Mr. Davidovic, a part of your comment implies that I
17 wouldn't have done it if there was no pressure. Did you see strictly
18 confidential documents which were not intended for public use but,
19 rather, addressed to organs of state in order to implement the rule of
21 A. Yes, Mr. Karadzic. I said that earlier documents and this one
22 which you presented show that there was a need and that you were making
23 efforts but for what reasons? I suppose it was the public pressure. But
24 one question from me then to counter this. How is possible that you
25 personally promoted Vojkan Djurkovic and awarded him the rank of major
1 and a medal at a ceremony at the square in Bijeljina in 1994? If you
2 knew that Vojkan Djurkovic carried out ethnic cleansing throughout the
3 war and that he only did that and that that was his only task, how is it
4 then possible that it should happen that you would present him an award?
5 Was it an award for the work he had done or for the acts he committed?
6 Or what was the reason?
7 Q. Mr. Davidovic, do you stand by that, that this is correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. We'll come to that.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You saw in this document that Prijedor is mentioned, and that I
14 mentioned that we did something similar in Prijedor. Can we now please
15 have D1138?
16 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1431, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says D1138. It's already been
19 admitted, but just to have a look, as I mentioned Prijedor, to see that
20 these activities were carried out in Prijedor as well.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. In which army did I promote this gentleman, and where did he
23 receive this rank from me?
24 A. He was in Arkan's army. He was a soldier of Arkan's all along.
25 Q. Do you have any evidence of that?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the answer?
2 JUDGE KWON: Slow down. The interpreter didn't hear your answer,
3 Mr. Davidovic. To the question from Mr. Karadzic that -- whether you had
4 any evidence of -- of the fact that he was in Arkan's army, he was a
5 soldier in Arkan's all along.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question, if you allow, was
7 whether the witness has any evidence that I promoted him, and I asked him
8 in which army was he serving when I promoted him.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vojkan Djurkovic was a soldier for
10 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. In the video-clip that we saw yesterday or
11 the day before yesterday when there was a troop review in Bijeljina, at
12 the head of the unit, when they were ready to line up, to his left or to
13 our right was Vojkan Djurkovic. He was standing there at the head. He
14 was a soldier for Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. All along, he was never
15 engaged in the Army of Republika Srpska and he was honoured and awarded
16 at the square, when the unit was lined up in front of the court building
17 in Bijeljina. I think it was in 1994. Some citizens were present. This
18 was a public ceremony; nothing contested about that.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Davidovic --
21 JUDGE KWON: In your previous answer that you said in your answer
22 I quote:
23 "How is it possible that you personally promoted
24 Vojkan Djurkovic and awarded him the rank of major?"
25 What do you mean by that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in 1994, there was a
2 line-up of this unit of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, in Bijeljina after
3 some activities they had carried out in that area. Some of them were
4 commended or promoted, and Vojkan Djurkovic was awarded the rank of major
5 at the time and he was also awarded a medal. I don't remember which
6 medal any more; I was not present, but I know that he was there, that
7 there was this line-up, that there was a troop review and that this
8 decision was publicly promoted and this honour was awarded to him
9 personally by Mr. Karadzic.
10 JUDGE KWON: But he wasn't promoted by Mr. Karadzic, was he?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that he promoted him
12 personally, because who else could have promoted him to a higher rank,
13 and who could have made this decision on his promotion, if not
14 President Karadzic? He was the one who awarded honours and who initiated
15 these extraordinary promotions and who gave such medals.
16 JUDGE KWON: Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I -- do I do that for every army or just the
19 Army of Republika Srpska? Do I promote people in all armies in Europe or
20 in the Balkans?
21 A. I only have in mind the Army of Republika Srpska, because you
22 were not the military commander or president of all Balkans or any other
23 country. I'm talking only about the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Thank you, but Vojkan was not a member of the Army of
25 Republika Srpska, was he?
1 A. No. He was in Arkan's unit, but you awarded particularly Arkan's
2 unit. You promoted it as a unit which did much in the territory of
3 Republika Srpska.
4 Q. For the sake of Trial Chamber, this was video-clip P2858.
5 Mr. Davidovic, this line-up of the unit which was part of the
6 MUP of Republika Srpska at the western Krajina front, did it take place
7 on the 29th of October, 1995?
8 A. I don't know when that took place. I think it was in 1994. I
9 just know that from the first day, even before the war events in
10 Bijeljina, Arkan was present in our territory. First of all, he
11 organised a camp between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was a
12 training camp to which members of the Serbian Democratic Party were sent,
13 young people who were being trained and prepared for some events. I know
14 that Arkan came at the invitation of the Crisis Staff. We could see this
15 from documents. And I know that he waged war in Bijeljina. I also know
16 that he went to work around Brcko and Zvornik just as he did in
17 Bijeljina. He wanted to liberate these places, and I said that I saw his
18 members at the Lukavica garrison in Sarajevo.
19 This is all I said about this army. It was coming and going and
20 passing through all along during the war. It was going to the territory
21 of Krajina in Croatia, and I know that it could move freely through the
22 territory of Republika Srpska. I also know that there were a number of
23 conflicts with active-duty officers of the army between Arkan and his men
24 and the forces that he was leading.
25 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I will ask you to be very specific and to prove
1 everything that you are saying.
2 A. You are free to do so.
3 Q. All right. Let us finish with this document first. What I said
4 earlier about Prijedor, this was in April 1994, and in order to complete
5 the investigation of the events and crimes in Prijedor, investigative
6 measures and everything else. Were you aware of that?
7 A. I can see that you wrote a memo and that it had to do with
8 Prijedor. I also know that you said toward the end, I looked at the
9 English version which mentions Bijeljina and Janja. I also know that the
10 entire population of Janja was moved out and that 80, if not even 90 per
11 cent of the Muslim population from Bijeljina were also moved out.
12 Q. So you stand by that, by the claim that all the population of
13 Janja was moved out and 80 to 90 per cent of the Muslim population from
15 A. Yes, everyone from Janja, and at least 80 to 90 per cent of the
16 Muslims from Bijeljina.
17 Q. We'll prove that easily.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a look at
19 the document 1D3791?
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Do you know, Mr. Davidovic, that Arkan between April 1992 and
22 September 1995 was not present at the front lines of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
23 rather, Republika Srpska?
24 A. I don't know whether he was present, but I know personally that
25 in the month of June, when the corridor was opened - I cannot remember
1 whether it was June or July - when he passed through Republika Srpska
2 with his unit he was going towards Kninska Krajina when the corridor was
3 opened. They were taking some aid there or something to them. That I
4 know. After that, I don't know what happened, because then I left
5 myself. I wasn't there all the time. I wasn't there on a daily basis in
6 order to be able to follow.
7 Q. Thank you. So he was travelling --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Slow down, please. Could you repeat
9 your question.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So he was travelling to Kninska Krajina and carrying aid, passing
12 through Republika Srpska?
13 A. Yes, he passed through Republika Srpska and Bijeljina. That is
14 my view of the war, yes, when he passed through Bijeljina.
15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember --
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Davidovic, can you see the transcript which is
17 scrolling down a little bit in front of your -- on the monitor in front
18 of you? Can I give you a tip? The timing you can --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: The timing you can start your answer is when the
21 transcript stops, which reflects the interpretation of Mr. Karadzic's
22 question is over. Thank you. Please bear that in mind. Please put a
23 pause between the question and answer.
24 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I do apologise. I
1 will follow it in the future.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. And do you remember that Arkan was on the front line in Serb
4 Krajina, Croatia, and that he was taken prisoner by Croatia and that
5 Croatia let him go without him standing trial at all?
6 A. I know that, and I know that he was released. It is only now
7 that some articles appeared in the newspapers saying how he was released,
8 but this is more by way of comment, and I won't want to go into that. I
9 know that he was arrested. I know that he was released without having
10 stood trial at all.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that in the autumn of 1995, after the
12 bombing of Republika Srpska, from the 28th of August until the 15th of
13 September, Republika Srpska was attacked by the Croatian Muslim
14 federation, which is twice as big, also Republika Srpska was attacked by
15 Croatia, the Croatian Army, and NATO, along with all sorts of other
16 factors that were involved.
17 A. Yes, I know that. It was in all the media. Nothing was a
18 secret. At that time, the Army of Republika Srpska sustained terrible
19 losses, and everything that happened was organised, as far as I know, by
20 the active-duty forces of the Republic of Croatia and the Muslim Croat
21 forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina led by Dudakovic, and I also know that
22 before that there was a conflict of this man from Bihac, yes, Abdic and
23 Dudakovic. They had a conflict in the area of Bihac. But it is true
24 there was an offensive. These people took part, supported by NATO
25 forces, and allegedly they gave physical and logistical support to these
1 forces and Arkan was directly involved in these war developments.
2 Q. Thank you. So in that situation, volunteers were admitted only
3 if they were among the ranks of the army or the police. Do you know of
4 anyone who fought in the Krajina outside the army or the police?
5 A. I don't know how people fought, but I know that I recently read
6 this comment, made by General Manojlovic who was chief of General Staff
7 and who was at the front line at that point in time. He said that he had
8 problems with Arkan's forces in that area when these joint actions took
10 Q. Did he have problems because Arkan was capturing deserters or
11 were there some other problems? Remember that it was mentioned that he
12 captured deserters?
13 A. Yes, that's true. They said that Arkan found all of those trying
14 to desert and then I assume he sent them back to their units. I read
15 that recently. It just so happened I read it in a news magazine,
16 Manojlo Milovanovic was talking about what he remembered, and he said
17 that that was a problem that he faced.
18 Q. Just another problem in relation to Krajina in the autumn of
19 1995. Did you hear of the extent to which civilian -- Serb civilians
20 were suffering, Mrkonjic, elsewhere? Have you heard of the mass graves
21 that were found there?
22 A. Yes, I heard that there were many mass graves and many killings,
23 that the forces that were penetrating the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 were committing abominable crimes. I actually know of neighbours who
25 were killed in that front -- on that front line, and they couldn't even
1 find their mortal remains even after all the DNA analyses. They haven't
2 even been buried properly. It is true that there was a great deal of
3 retaliation and a great many persons were killed.
4 Q. Thank you. Can we focus on this document that is here now. The
5 Eastern Bosnian Corps is writing up a report on the session of the
6 National Assembly of Republika Srpska held on the 22nd of August, 1994,
7 and it says in Pale, on the 18th of August, the 44th session of the
8 National Assembly of Republika Srpska was held at Pale, and it says what
9 was done there. The subordinates are being informed about what happened,
10 the tactical group of Majevica, but that means that other units were also
11 made aware of this. So can we have the second page now.
12 Maybe it's going to be the third page in English, so could we
13 have that as well.
14 I would like you to look at the fifth paragraph from the top of
15 the page, "The Assembly decided ..."
16 Until we find our way in the English version, please focus on
18 "The Assembly decided that the new government should prepare a
19 program of measures and tasks in the newly created conditions that would
20 be discussed at the session of the Assembly on the 31st of August, 1994."
21 Within an item on the agenda entitled questions and proposals by
22 MPs, at the request of the MPs, at a closed session of this Assembly, the
23 President of the Republic Radovan Karadzic, the Vice-President
24 Nikola Koljevic, Speaker of the Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, and the
25 representative of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska,
1 Major-General Zdravko Tolimir informed the MPs about the topic of
2 political and security --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, impossible. Impossible to follow if
4 you read it out in that speed.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I do apologise. It says -- well, at the request of the MPs at a
7 closed session, the President of the Republic, Radovan Karadzic,
8 Vice-President Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Speaker of the
9 Assembly, and the representative of the Main Staff and so on and so forth
10 answered questions put by the deputies. Since it was a closed session,
11 that is not contained in the transcript. However, let us see what
12 General Simic's report was.
13 Can we have the next page. The next page in Serbian, and we'll
14 try to see where the English is. It's fine in Serbian and in English
15 it's probably one page ahead.
16 "The President of Republika Srpska condemned the engagement of
17 the organs of authority of the Zavidovici municipality, in the expulsion
18 of people from Vozuca, adding that the assessment that it was safer to
19 live in Vozuca than in urban parts of Sarajevo where the front lines were
20 on both sides of the street and where civilians were being killed every
21 day, but they did not move out, and they withstood all Muslim offensives.
22 The President of the Republic also condemned all cases of indiscipline,
23 alcoholism, evasion of military service, criminal activities against
24 members of the Army of Republika Srpska carried out by Vojkan Djurkovic
25 and the group around him."
1 What do you say to that? This is closed session of the session
2 of the Assembly of Republika Srpska? What do you say to that? What do
3 you say in relation to your assertion that I awarded and rewarded
4 Vojkan Djurkovic?
5 A. I don't see what you're trying to say.
6 Q. You see this?
7 A. I see that you criticised him and said that he created some
8 problems. However, I said that in spite of all of that, he was promoted
9 and a decoration was conferred upon him.
10 Q. Give the OTP a document to that effect.
11 A. I'm going to collect statements from persons involved, and I'm
12 going to send them.
13 Q. Consciously, you are misinforming the OTP and the Trial Chamber.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please put a pause. Just a second.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: I think we have exhausted this topic. Let's move
17 on, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted as Exhibit D1432.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Would you now please focus on paragraph 165 of your statement.
24 This is what you say:
25 "I recall having been told by Djurkovic that on one occasion
1 when they expelled 100 to 150 Muslims he collected 150.000 to 200.000
2 marks. Djurkovic told me he was paid well for the authority to be in
3 charge of the expulsion of Muslims from Bijeljina. Djurkovic talked
4 publicly about giving money to Karadzic and Krajisnik. Djurkovic paid a
5 certain percentage of money collected for each group of people expelled
6 to Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo Krajisnik."
7 Is that what you wrote?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now we're going to see. So you're chatting with him, and he is
10 taking you in his confidence and saying what kind of money he is
11 collecting, and you did not file a criminal report with the police, no?
12 Did you write up a criminal report after that conversation?
13 A. Will you allow me to wait for the typing to stop so that I could
14 answer as instructed by the President of the Trial Chamber.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. Please proceed.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not chatting with Vojkan. I
17 did not have an opportunity to converse with him. I conducted
18 semi-official or official talks with him. I had several contacts, very
19 unpleasant ones, with him, and when I asked him once, "What are you
20 doing? How can you be doing that kind of thing?" and so on, he said, "If
21 I didn't have the right to do that, I wouldn't be doing it. And if I did
22 not benefit from it like those who are telling me to do this."
23 And I said, "Well, who is giving you the authority to do that?"
24 "Well, I get paid for what I'm doing, and I'm paying further on,
25 and it's easier to see --" I've already said that when he rounds up 300
1 or 400 men on a truck, he takes them to a special location and searches
2 these people for two days. I said that even very old women were examined
3 gynecologically because they were looking for money. And usually he
4 would tell them, Take what you can with you, so they don't take too many
5 things. People would take diplomas if they have any, and some clothes
6 and their valuables. In these groups of 300 or 400 persons, there would
7 be millions of marks and -- or, rather, about 500.000 marks.
8 He publicly boasted about this. He didn't only tell me about it.
9 He told everybody in town about all of these things that he bought during
10 the war and that he took, and he said that he took part of that money
11 collected to you and to Mr. Krajisnik and that that is why you gave him
12 the right to do that and that no one, therefore, dared stop him. At the
13 moment when he did that, the army and the police did not do anything
14 about it, although they knew what was going on. They even received
15 telephone calls from neighbours saying here they are, they're coming, but
16 they didn't dare react. And then the problem was perpetuated. This is
17 to say that this kept happening all the time, from 1992 more or less
18 until the end of the war. That did happen. The international community
19 knew about this, the international Red Cross. I don't know who amongst
20 the authorities did not know about that and did not stop it nevertheless.
21 Q. Let us -- let us go back to this paragraph of yours. Was this
22 chatting or was this an official talk?
23 A. I cannot chat with persons like that. I can have an informal
24 talk, but all of these conversations are aimed at providing information
25 that I eventually wrote up and sent to my superiors. Several times I
1 wrote about this to my superiors. I must say even to President Milosevic
2 through Minister Bulatovic. I sent him a document asking him to try to
3 prevent this kind of thing from happening in Bijeljina in any way he can.
4 I don't know whether you have that kind of information here. I did
5 inform my superiors about that, and the authorities in Bijeljina knew
6 about all of this in detail.
7 Q. Thank you. So you talked to Vojkan Djurkovic, and there is an
8 official report in this connection and a criminal report. If not a
9 criminal report, at least an official note.
10 A. Not a criminal report but an official note sent to my superior,
11 and I wrote up a memo on several pages about all of these things that
12 were happening, and I asked Minister Bulatovic to send this memo further
13 on to Mr. Milosevic.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you write this, that he admitted that he would
15 gather 150 to 200.000 marks and that he gave a percentage to Krajisnik
16 and Karadzic?
17 A. Yes, exactly.
18 Q. Where is this official note?
19 A. I don't know. I had this official note. I don't have it any
20 more. I don't know if it was found in the federal SUP or the documents
21 that were before this Tribunal before. I don't know. I cannot say.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see the time, Excellencies, so I
23 don't think that I should call up a document now. Perhaps I can do it
24 after the break, if you so decide.
25 JUDGE KWON: If it is convenient, we'll take a break now.
1 Before we break, I just have one matter.
2 Mr. Tieger, the Chamber has considered your request of 29 June
3 2011 for leave to reply to the accused's response regarding further
4 orders on DNA testing and ICMP. We will grant you leave to reply but
5 only in relation to item 3 of the request, that is on the issue of
6 whether further orders by the Chamber are still appropriate in light of
7 the accused's response.
8 Could this reply be filed by the end of the day today?
9 MR. TIEGER: As always, we'll try to do so, Your Honour. If it
10 appears that the -- that that won't be possible, I will let the Court
11 know quickly.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
13 We'll resume at 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you seen your official note to
20 Minister Pavle Bulatovic. You sent your note to President Milosevic. We
21 know that President Milosevic is dead. Is Minister Bulatovic alive?
22 A. No. He was killed in Belgrade. I can't remember the year.
23 Q. He was killed.
24 A. The defence minister.
25 Q. Did you sent any official note to the MUP of Republika Srpska?
1 A. No, because I knew that they had all that information. They know
2 because they are directly involved in all of these developments, and they
3 know it.
4 Q. They were involved?
5 A. Well, since when Vojkan Djurkovic was rounding people up in the
6 streets the police was not intervening. Even when the citizens called
7 them in they did not come. And at the station they would remain inside
8 and only when the rounding up is over did the police come out into the
9 street. They knew from the start that he was doing it.
10 Q. So you are making inferences. If they are not preventing him,
11 they are accessories. Make a pause, please.
12 A. I am thinking quite naturally. If they see what's going on and
13 doing nothing about it, that means they must have orders not to do
14 anything. All the time Vojkan Djurkovic is talking about it publicly,
15 and everyone knew the kind of person he was. He likes to boast. He
16 always drops names, emphasises that he has contacts here and there. So
17 they knew, too, who he was and that he was doing what he was doing.
18 Q. Help me make this clear. You are using analogy and making
19 inferences, namely if somebody is aware that somebody else is doing
20 something and doing nothing to prevent them, they mean -- that means they
21 are involved and an accessory. You say that Vojkan Djurkovic is the kind
22 of person drops names and brags about his contacts to show that he is
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you believed him, that it was not only bragging, that it was
2 A. I didn't say I believed him. I'm not saying that all he said was
3 true. I'm only saying what I heard from Vojkan, and that's what I
4 conveyed to you. How much truth there was in what he was saying, I don't
5 know, and I wasn't asked about it. I'm only talking about my personal
6 experience, what I saw and heard myself. Everything else is up to
7 everyone's personal judgement. How much truth there was in Vojkan's
8 words, I don't know. After all, I'm not the only one who knew about it.
9 The state authorities had all this information beginning with the police
10 and the secret police, state security and the army. Everyone was aware
11 of it.
12 Q. I can't speak on behalf of the OTP, but I believe the Office of
13 the Prosecutor will kiss you when you bring that official note that you
14 talk about.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's not appropriate to make such a comment.
16 JUDGE KWON: Absolutely.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me just a moment. I
19 presented to the OTP a written document stating that certain documents
20 from Bosnia and Herzegovina had been taken away from me and that official
21 note was among them. There is such a document, in any case. Now, what
22 happened with the documentation that I submitted to my command, I'll be
23 free to say that before I came to testify in the Krajisnik case, I asked
24 to be given certain documentation. They were unable to give it to me.
25 They said a lot of it was destroyed during the bombing because the
1 federal SUP building was bombed, and they still haven't looked through
2 the remaining documents to see what there is there. So they were unable
3 to give it to me.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
5 Q. Did Mr. Djurkovic tell you how he sent money to me and
6 Mr. Krajisnik, by mail or personally?
7 A. Well, supposedly he took it directly, and he even said, "When I
8 hand over a bag full of money, nobody will mind. And if I wasn't paying
9 that money, they probably would have taken that right away from me a long
10 time ago."
11 He was talking about a nylon bag full of money. Whether that was
12 bragging, whether it was a lie, I don't know, but he said it to me, and
13 he said it publicly. Everyone knew about it more or less. I can't
14 understand that you are now trying to say that you didn't know about it,
15 that you didn't know about him saying these things.
16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Davidovic, we have all reports from the
17 State Security Service. Nobody ever reported about that to me. At least
18 we would have had those reports.
19 Did you know that my office recorded every visit and every
20 telephone call to me and that in these diaries and agendas there's no
21 trace of any contact between Vojkan Djurkovic and me?
22 A. I believe you. I'm just telling you what I know. That's what I
23 was able to hear and see myself. Now, why they didn't inform you, why
24 your subordinates did not give this information to you, I don't know, but
25 that was common knowledge. It was notorious. Everybody knew about it.
1 That's why people kept quiet, and nobody dared do anything, because they
2 thought it comes from the top, and they had to bow to it.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. You confirmed that you know you were
4 sent to provide assistance to the MUP of Republika Srpska after a public
5 appeal made by the Prime Minister of Yugoslavia, Milan Panic, and myself
6 to provide help in clearing up and eliminating paramilitaries; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember that on the same occasion the FRY prime minister,
9 Milan Panic, and I made a public appeal to the Muslims to return to areas
10 where there is no combat? I mean, those Muslims who had fled, they
11 should return to areas where there is no more combat.
12 A. I don't remember, but I believe such appeals were made,
13 especially by Milan Panic who was rather free in his speech, and he often
14 said things that ran counter to what was going on to -- in Serbia,
15 especially contrary to what Milosevic and other people said.
16 Q. Please stay on the question. Do you recall that we also made an
17 appeal to people to return to areas where there is no combat?
18 A. Possibly. You may have said it, but I focused on what I was
19 told, that he was summoned, told to go to Bosnia at the request of
20 Prime Minister Panic and you to help the Republika Srpska in disarming
21 paramilitaries. That's the only thing I had to focus on. It's possible
22 that you also said that Muslims should return to areas they had fled
23 earlier, but I don't think they could have returned, because everything
24 was either destroyed or given to other people.
25 Q. Did anyone respond to that appeal? Did any Muslims return to
2 A. I must say when I came to Bijeljina and restored peace to some
3 extent, some people returned from Hungary, from Serbia. Some Muslims did
4 return to Bijeljina. I knew some of them personally. I saw them at the
5 border crossing in Bosnia, because we were just establishing a
6 check-point on the border at that time, a police check-point, and I could
7 see at that time that some Muslims were returning to their homes,
8 believing that combat had stopped, especially in Bijeljina, that people
9 were no longer being rounded up and taken away.
10 Q. Did I have to return to those people the money that I allegedly
11 received from Vojkan? Do you have that information? Was the money given
12 back to those people, and did I have to return my share as well?
13 A. I don't know. Many of them accused Vojkan of taking money from
14 them. Nobody mentioned you, and the fact that Vojkan says that he paid
15 off you and Krajisnik is a different matter. I haven't seen his
16 statement. I don't know. I never heard that anybody was claiming money
17 from you. Even the weapons that had been taken away are now being
18 claimed back. I know that there are many problems with the Muslims
19 returning to the area of Bijeljina and Janja.
20 Q. Could we briefly look at D473. Is this a summary from a working
21 meeting of the leaders of the MUP, dated 20 August 1992, strictly
22 confidential? Correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could we look at English page 10, Serbian 7, or perhaps 8.
25 Serbian 8, English 10.
1 Look at the last paragraph.
2 "In Bijeljina, the situation is relatively good, but it's much
3 worse than it looks at first glance. The problem with the Muslim part of
4 the population is increasingly complicated with the return of Muslim
5 refugees and those who had earlier left and this was affected by the
6 recent statements of Mr. Karadzic and Panic. Among this population there
7 is a certain number of Muslim extremists, and it is estimated that a
8 large number of citizens of this ethnicity have weapons."
9 Do you see that even extremists felt encouraged to come back
10 after my appeal and that of Mr. Panic?
11 A. Yes. This confirms that some Muslims were trying to return, but
12 they were unable to return to their homes and that created significant
13 problems, but I don't know how Muslim extremists would have been treated
14 at that time. When I was there in 1992, there were no Muslim
15 extremists -- there were no extremists. People were so afraid. They
16 were trying to be invisible. I even had a good friend, a Muslim.
17 Whenever he saw me around town, he would look away, cross to the other
18 side of the street to be invisible. When I stopped him and I said, "What
19 are you doing, neighbour? Why are you so afraid?" He would say, "I'm
20 not afraid for myself. You will have problems if you are seen with me."
21 Q. Mr. Davidovic, do you know about my very strict view against all
22 type of crime and all sorts of criminals and especially corruption?
23 A. No. I must say I'm not aware of it. It's the first time I hear
24 of it. And if you have any document about that, I'd like to see it very
1 Q. Could we look at P4 briefly, an intercept dated 18 November 1991.
3 In addition to other criminal features of Vojkan's conduct and
4 the conduct of other people, would you call it also war profiteering?
5 A. You're asking me. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. This is an intercept of my conversation with Predrag,
7 late Predrag Radic, in fact, Vukic, Radic, and Brdjanin. One is the
8 president --
9 A. Mayor.
10 Q. Mayor of Banja Luka. Brdjanin was an MP. Could we see page 3 in
11 both versions.
12 Can you see the fourth from above?
13 Karadzic said, "So I asked him nicely, I said to him, Andjelko,
14 don't you guys hang around with criminals. Please don't. Your career's
15 at stake. And then he says, absolutely. And I say, he says you know,
16 they're not criminals. If they're not criminals, he says only two or
17 three are, then great. Two or three. Sit down with the military
18 prosecutor and the two are three that are criminals can stay in
19 detention, and the other ones can be released."
20 And then a bit further down Karadzic says, "But there has to be
21 an agreement, and it really has to be checked who is a criminal and who
22 has to stay. We must not base our policies on criminals. Let Tudjman do
24 And a bit further down there is a swear word, and I say, "I don't
25 need Serbs like that. I don't need 32 tossers. They say that 20 of them
1 were released right away."
2 Do you can you see that I advocated that people for whom there
3 are reasons to keep them in custody should not be released?
4 A. Yes, Mr. Karadzic. I see that's what you're advocating, but
5 while you were advocating such things, you were probably aware that at
6 the time there was much crime in the area of Republika Srpska, much
7 crime, much crime and much collusion between crime and people who were in
8 high positions who were allowing this or they were sharing profits with
9 someone, but objectively speaking, you must know yourself that crime was
10 rife and widespread. And I see what you advocated but whether all this
11 information was reaching you or not is something I couldn't know but I'm
12 telling you what was really happening on the ground. I can see that you
13 were -- your position was against that and you wanted people who were
14 doing such things to be arrested. So I'm not contesting at any time the
15 efforts that you were making in that direction.
16 Q. Thank you. Can we please show the next page.
17 Mr. Davidovic, did we call you to drink tea together or did we
18 call you to help us about crime?
19 A. You called me to help prevent the crime.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. And something else. You gave me carte blanche. I have told the
22 Prosecution that I did not have any prohibition, any restrictions or
23 anything else. I was completely autonomous when planning activities and
24 operations, arresting, bringing people in. No one ever told me don't do
25 that or didn't allow me to carry out anything.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you please have a look at the fifth or sixth line
2 from above where it says not private businessmen here. "I don't have
3 anything against the private businessmen," Karadzic says there, "but the
4 war profiteering cannot be stamped out," and then there's a swear word.
5 "These are war profiteers. They are not patriots."
6 Would you agree with that?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we now please have a look at 65 ter 31672.
10 This is my telephone conversation with -- rather, dated the 2nd
11 of November, 1991, with Nenad Stevandic. He was a party man from
12 Banja Luka. Can we please see the following page in both Serbian and
14 And here down near the bottom, please have a look,
15 Nenad Stevandic says:
16 "Ah, he was here in Belgrade for two days and I don't know who he
17 came to see. I believe that he mentioned you as well, and so ..."
18 And Karadzic says, "He can't mention me. I will be in Belgrade.
19 I will be in Belgrade as well and tell people to disregard it. Uzelac
20 has carte blanche there. There is no way to have any paramilitary
21 formation to embarrass us and do what they did."
22 And then Stevandic says --
23 Can you see from this that others also referred to me, they
24 mentioned my name, and that this is something that I'm denying here?
25 A. Yes. It happened frequently, Mr. Karadzic, that people,
1 especially if they had a criminal past or if they had such inclinations
2 would refer to you saying with full conviction that they had your
3 approval what they were doing. To what extent that could be checked at
4 such time, I cannot say, but I heard very often that your name was
5 mentioned in various situations, and I must say sometimes these were bad
6 people, criminals, swindlers, and your name was mentioned in various
7 kinds of situations.
8 Q. Thank you. Please have a look. He says: @doctor, the problem
9 is no the paramilitary formations. The problem is that they really did
10 plunder ..."
11 It's page 3 in Serbian in English we can keep page 2.
12 "They really did plunder, and they really did share that with" --
13 and some names are listed, Mladjenovic, Savicic, and Andjelko. And then
14 it goes on to say, Stevandic says:
15 "They know that if these fall, the others will fall, too."
16 And Karadzic says, "let them fall, they mustn't do that. We
17 cannot rely anywhere."
18 And Stevandic says, "God forbid."
19 And then I say, "What we are doing, we must not build a rotten
20 stone in the foundations of what we are building. We shall not rely on
22 Is this also evidence that my position was that we had to build
23 sound stones as part of the foundation of what we were building at the
25 A. Yes. One can conclude that from this.
1 Q. All right. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this intercept be admitted with
3 all limitations as a MFI'd document?
4 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
5 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D1433, Your Honours.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 32054, please.
7 65 ter 32054.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. This is my telephone conversation with Mr. Stevandic on the 20th
10 of December, 1991. Let us please look at page 2 in English and page 3 in
12 Stevandic says, on the previous page in Serbian, "I'm interested
13 if that's a political game, that they be released, then we should say."
14 And Karadzic says, "No, no."
15 And then on page 3 in Serbian and page 2 in English:
16 "Thieves are not national heroes and we cannot lie to the
17 people" - this is what Karadzic says - "no, no, they are -- they cannot
18 be released until the investigation is completed. If the investigation
19 is completed, then they can be released or remain detained until the
20 beginning of the trial."
21 And then he wants to ask me if anyone ends up from Serbia if
22 there are internal conflicts or showdown and then someone from Serbia
23 could intervene.
24 And Karadzic says, "No, no. Nobody from Serbia will intervene.
25 No way. Nobody will stand up for criminals. Only when the investigation
1 is over and there's no need for them to be in prison, then let them be
3 And then a bit further down, it says, "There's justice. No
4 discussion about that. You may tell that to Stojan. We stick to
5 position of the rule of law and we will protect ..."
6 Yes, in English we need the next page, please.
7 "You may tell Stojan this, because we support rule of law and
8 we'll protect both Stojan and Uzelac in that sense. There -- no one over
9 there can behave against the rule of law."
10 Would you agree there may have been problems for Uzelac as the
11 corps commander and Zupljanin as the chief of police while they
12 prosecuted criminals and that by this I'm saying that they have our
14 A. Yes. They could be exposed to criticism and have problems, and I
15 can see from this that you are supporting them.
16 Q. Thank you. Can we please have page 4 in Serbian and we can keep
17 the page that we can see on the screen now in English.
18 Karadzic says here, "yes, yes, yes. All that will -- there's
19 no -- you may say to Stojan that I stand behind that. No one -- none of
20 them are allowed to behave any differently from any decent citizen."
21 And then later on he says that he will attack Brdjanin.
22 And then I say, "If they attack Brdjanin and the others and
23 commit a criminal offence, they will have to go to gaol again. So there
24 are no problems, and politically I'll fuck them to pieces."
25 Well, it's a swear word, no doubt about that.
1 And then a bit further down: "A change of a political position
2 and attitude regarding the legality of the state. There is none of
4 Can we now please see page 5 in Serbian.
5 Karadzic says, "we'll never rely on criminals, and they have to
6 know that. We won't mix -- or get involved in the issue of their guilt.
7 Let the court decide about that?"
8 And a bit further down: "By making political movements, we will
9 neither facilitate or make their position more difficult. Therefore, we
10 are not going to make it easier or more difficult for them."
11 And the following page in Serbian, please.
12 "Therefore, that's out of the question. If they want to have an
13 influence, the climate is somewhat different now and there's no doubt
14 about them not being guilty. If the investigation is over, the judge had
15 the right to release them, but the investigation must be over and then
16 end either with a conviction or an acquittal. Therefore, such an
17 attitude must be resolved."
18 Would you agree that this means advocating the law and that this
19 is not something addressed to the press? I'm telling that to my party
20 colleague from Banja Luka.
21 A. Yes, I agree. There's no doubt about it. It's a fact.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this intercept admitted
24 in the same manner as the previous ones?
25 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D1434.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And one more on this subject:
3 65 ter 0036 -- 30036.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This is my conversation with someone from state administration.
6 The previous one was a party official, and now I'm talking with
7 Mr. Miodrag Simovic who is the vice-premier of the joint Bosnian
8 government on the 8th of June, 1991, 20 years ago. Miodrag Simovic was
9 not a member of the party, but at the proposal of SDS, he was the
10 vice-premier in charge of the judiciary and administration. Perhaps you
11 knew that. Can we now see page 2 in both Serbian and English.
12 Seventh line from above Karadzic says, "Were you at the
13 government session when he accused the parties leaders for interference?"
14 Simovic replies, "No."
15 And then a bit further down after Delimustafic, Karadzic says:
16 "You can ask for it that Mr. Delimustafic writes down the names
17 of the leaders who wanted to intervene. When did they call him and
18 intervene. I never called him and I never ..."
19 And a bit further down:
20 "No, no. But that's why he shouldn't be allowed to get out of
21 this now. He has to say whether it was Alija or somebody else, but then
22 he has to say who to be specific when, which leader, and for which
23 person. And then finally, why should he listen to anyone? If somebody
24 committed a crime, why would he obey any party leader?"
25 So the Minister of the Interior, Alija Delimustafic, said at the
1 government session that some party leaders interfered with the work of
2 the MUP and Radovan Karadzic requests the vice-premier, who is superior
3 to Delimustafic because he is in charge of the judiciary and
4 administration to clarify this and to make Delimustafic say out clearly
5 who interfered with his work.
6 So would you say that this is an intervention relating to these
7 anonymous claims that someone was trying to interfere?
8 A. I agree.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?
11 JUDGE KWON: Again, this will be marked for identification.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1435, Your Honours.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can you please focus your attention on paragraph 145 from your
15 statement. You're talking about Zvornik and in the second sentence you
17 "[In English] My opinion was that the RS leadership was more than
18 happy to have a state of chaos continue in Brcko, Bijeljina, and Zvornik.
19 The re-establishment of law and order would have made it difficult for
20 the RS leadership through the SDS to continue war profiteering."
21 [Interpretation] Can you now please look at this one, D456. Can
22 we please show that one so that we can see what was being said at the
23 Assembly of Republika Srpska.
24 Let us have a look at this. These are the minutes from the 20th
25 session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska, and I would like us to have
1 a look at page 59 in Serbian and page 55 in English. That was my speech
2 before the Assembly. In English, 55, right, and Serbian, 59.
3 It's the sixth line from the bottom of the page. "I'm saying
4 that we've been given a lot of credit by the international community,
5 that we are cooperative, that we want to work on humanitarian issues.
6 That has assisted us a great deal. Do not worry about that. We do not
7 need Manjaca. I wish all of the Green Berets were killed while they
8 still had a rifle in their hands. However, if you took them prisoner
9 then you have to observe the Geneva Convention. That has to happen. It
10 also suits us to close this. Just not for them to appear on the
12 Can we have the next page, please. In the middle, the end of the
13 first paragraph on this page and the beginning of the second one, I say:
14 "There is an imminent threat of war. That is what we have
15 declared. And if we need to declare a state of war for that to become an
16 efficient government, then I probably say that we'll not be afraid to be
17 firm when they exercise authority. It's -- power's not an easy thing,
18 but you either have it or you don't. Some people say that is true. I am
19 pleased when I see that in Bijeljina children are playing ..."
20 And so on and so forth.
21 Could I please have the next page. In Serbian it's 60 and in
22 English it's 56.
23 It says: "Please let us look at this and let us see what will
24 give us sufficient authority to do our work relentlessly as of the next
25 day, because we do not have the right to fool around with our people, not
1 only with Republika Srpska but with the Serbian people and all Serbian
2 lands. Further on it says the democratic party has to be tolerant, mild,
3 and allow different opinions, but that cannot be the situation in state
4 organs. That's why laws exist and that's why laws do not allow any
6 And further down, it says: "The government, the ministers,
7 commissioners, municipal authorities, the military police, they must all
8 start functioning within three days or we're doomed. That's a must. Get
9 rid of the shitheads, if they are not for the police. Return them to the
10 front and bring to the front people whose hands are clean. Change the
11 whole police force."
12 Do you agree, Mr. Davidovic, that the president cannot do more
13 than ask for these measures to be carried out?
14 A. I agree. I think that that was right on your part.
15 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you whether you remember that Dragan Andan
16 was a police inspector first and that then he was appointed acting chief
17 of the CSB?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. 65 ter 18400. Could we have that now, please. Now we're going
20 to see why Dragan Andan was promoted.
21 First of all, he was a police inspector. We're going to see that
22 on the last page. Then he was promoted acting chief of the security
23 services centre. Then he was suspended and we saw for what reasons. You
24 yourself would have suspended him. Now, let's see why he was promoted.
25 This is the 17th of June, 1992, just before you arrived -- or, rather,
1 you may have been there already. It says report on supervision.
2 Actually, this is 65 ter. There should be a translation as well.
3 JUDGE KWON: The fact that a certain document does bear a 65 ter
4 number does not necessarily mean there should be a translation, but that
5 should be confirmed by --
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we don't have a translation.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. It is your responsibility to offer the
8 translation of documents.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Since
10 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is on duty today, I am not asking you to criticise
11 her, but you may criticise Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I would like to go through this carefully, because there is no
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, that's another improper comment.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. That was by way of a
17 joke. I could not resist, because you criticise us when we do not
18 provide a translation. The OTP have this as a 65 ter document, and they
19 did not provide a translation as well. I thought you should criticise
20 them the way you criticise us, but I thought that Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff
21 should not be criticised like a man would be criticised, but if that is
22 inappropriate, then I withdraw what I said.
23 JUDGE KWON: Let's not waste more time. Let's proceed.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
25 Q. I will have to read out more than I would if we had a
1 translation. It says: "Report on supervision and insight into the
2 situation in SJB Brcko and SJB Zvornik and partly the situation in SJB
3 Bijeljina." That is the public security station in Bijeljina.
4 Could you please read this for yourself, and I will simply
5 recount what this is about. Does this say that Danilo Vukovic and
6 Dragomir Andan from the 29th of May until the 12th of June, 1992, carried
7 out instructional supervision and provided indispensable professional
8 assistance to the stations of Brcko and Zvornik and then it says that on
9 the 29th of May, the basic functions of the Brcko station were not
10 carried out, and it says there was no komandir of the police, the crime
11 investigation service was headed by a national security official, but
12 their work was carried out in a very superficial way.
13 And then further down, it says: "With the assistance of the
14 chief of the public security station, we managed to constitute the
15 service as such."
16 And it says that: "Along with proposals and suggestions from the
17 public security station chief, we appointed top officials within the
18 station itself."
19 And then the last sentence says: "As for the functioning of the
20 patrol service in the territory of the liberated parts of the town of
21 Brcko, we establish this service thanks to the understanding of the
22 military organs who allowed for 155 policemen to be withdrawn from the
23 front line."
24 Do you remember that during these first months of the war the
25 police had to abandon their regular duties and go and defend the front
2 A. There were such cases. I knew about Brcko because Dragan told me
3 about that when I got there. When we came to Brcko later, he told me
4 about these details.
5 Q. Thank you. Can we have the next page. The middle of the second
6 paragraph says: As we arrived, we looked into the lists of the reserve
7 police force, also checked against the criminal records. After that, 21
8 persons who went through these records -- or, rather, who were cleared
9 were sent to TO Brcko. Does that mean that they were sent to the
11 A. Yes, yes. My answer was yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Next page. Part of my answer was not included. Does
13 that mean that they were excluded from the police and returned to the
14 TO -- or, rather, the army?
15 A. Yes. All of those who were cleared and who were found among the
16 reserve police force were returned to the regular army, that is to say,
17 to the defence.
18 Q. Do you agree that for them that was a lot more unfavourable, to
19 return to the TO and to the army and to go to the front line, that that
20 was a lot more unfavourable than doing police work in town?
21 A. But of course. They all wanted to be on the reserve police force
22 and to be policemen. It would be a lot easier for them, a lot better.
23 Q. Thank you. In a way -- in this way the police was cleansed, and
24 it was a kind of punishment, wasn't it?
25 A. Well, I assume that those who came in such a way had to leave,
1 but it's obvious that persons who actually did have a criminal record and
2 who were admitted without giving them clearance beforehand, this --
3 someone simply said, "As of today, you are policemen." This happened on
4 a massive scale.
5 Q. Thank you. And then it says: "The special unit of the police
6 station of Brcko that has 24 members is working in an unorganised way at
7 their own initiative, wilfully, and that is not allowed." Right?
8 A. Yes. That kind of thing is not allowed.
9 Q. And then the next paragraph speaks about the crime investigation
10 department. It says:
11 "As we were in Brcko, this department was constituted and it
12 started operating in keeping with the conditions there. The department
13 started collecting intelligence and other information of interest to the
14 crime investigation service, homicide, rape, murder, et cetera. Since
15 most of them were admitted by the public security station of Brcko, it
16 was agreed that intelligence should be gathered and that after that, as
17 the armed conflict ended in Brcko, then in the territory of Brcko other
18 measures should also be taken against the said persons."
19 Could you now please look at the last paragraph:
20 "The public security station in Brcko, as for paramilitary
21 formations Captain Dragan, the so-called Chetnik units from the area of
22 Bijeljina that are led by a certain Goran Jelisic and the self-styled
23 Chetnik units from the area of Ugljevik. These units are actually
24 exercising pressure against these public security stations and on two
25 occasions -- actually, can we have the next page. An armed attack was
1 attempted against the police station in Brcko. Did you know about that
2 just before you arrived in Brcko?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. And then further on it says that some goods were
5 found, some stolen goods. The value of these goods was about 200.000
6 Deutschmark, and then it says:
7 "Afraid of self-styled vojvodas, majors, generals, policemen
8 still conduct their work with some fear. We have seen that these persons
9 do not stop at using weapons even against their close associates."
10 And further down it says somewhere that a certain Goran Jelisic
11 committed crimes, rape, murder of innocent Muslim civilians. This same
12 person was bragging about his misdeeds in Brcko and Bijeljina. Policemen
13 are fearful whether he's going to draw a gun at them too if he says them
14 and if a policeman looks at him in a way that he doesn't like, he would
15 draw a gun at him?
16 Had you heard of this fear and terror in Brcko?
17 A. Yes, I heard about that. The first thing I did was try to arrest
18 Jelisic as soon as I arrived in Brcko.
19 Q. Further on it says:
20 "In order for the public security station to function in an
21 unhindered way, we believe that all paramilitary formations should be
22 expelled from this area. Also, from the territory of Serbia the arrival
23 of paramilitaries should be banned altogether."
24 And then a bit further down, it says:
25 "We believe that it is indispensable to provide proper equipment
1 to this SJB, especially communications equipment, teleprinters,
2 telephones with neighbouring municipalities ..." and so on.
3 Can we have the penultimate page.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We do not see the text at
5 all. We have no reference.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So we saw that in the case of Brcko, there weren't even the right
8 technical conditions for carrying out proper work.
9 A. It was insufficient. These are very small hand-held radios that
10 are given to policemen who are on the beat.
11 Q. This is what it says about the public security station in
12 Bijeljina, somewhere around line 10 or 12 or somewhere after CSB
13 Bijeljina: "We were present during such an armed rebellion, when 550
14 members of Chetnik formations led by Vojvoda Mirko wanted to use land,
15 land, and other infantry and other artillery weapons to destroy the
16 security building in Bijeljina."
17 Can we have the last page, please.
18 This was signed by Dragomir Andan and Danilo Vukovic. Did you
19 know this Vukovic as well?
20 A. Of course I did. He arrived when I came to Bijeljina, when I was
21 sent by the MUP -- or, rather, he was appointed head of the general crime
22 department, including homicide.
23 Q. Mr. Davidovic, after such proposed measures, the MUP promoted
24 this man to chief of CSB, and he is also given to you as your liaison
25 officer in your operation of doing away with the paramilitaries,
1 disarming them, and so on.
2 A. As I was sent to Republika Srpska, I first went to Pale where I
3 talked to Mico Stanisic and Cedo Kljajic. When a proposal was made for
4 Andan to come from Brcko and to be a coordinator, Mico was against that
5 energetically. However, Cedo Kljajic insisted, and also what it says
6 here, that when he went to Brcko, he compiled a good report showing that
7 he did have knowledge and professionalism. So that's what I was told
8 when I came to Bijeljina, that Dragan Andan would be withdrawn from Brcko
9 and that he would be appointed coordinator for me.
10 After 10 or 15 days, Dragan Andan was appointed chief of the
11 public security station in Bijeljina, acting chief, actually.
12 Q. Of the centre of the security services or the public -- or the
13 public security station?
14 A. The centre of security services for the entire region.
15 Q. From the level of police inspector to --
16 A. Head of the security services centre.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: This will be marked for identification.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1436, Your Honours.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now see 1D3619.
22 It need not be broadcast because there is a name that should not be
23 broadcast for the person's own protection. It's not a guilty party, it's
24 a witness. 1D3619.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Is this an order by the president of the Presidency, that is
2 president of the municipality of Bijeljina, Cvijetin Simic, dated
3 8 April, 1992, prohibiting the sale of alcoholic beverages to uniformed
4 persons in the area of Bijeljina and envisaging sanctions in case of
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Does it look to you like fighting chaos or advocating chaos?
8 A. This looks like a decision to suppress chaos, but I can say with
9 absolute certainty that nobody ever honoured that decision. It was only
10 later in 1993 and 1994 that some catering establishments were closed down
11 or fined because they violated certain rules or worked longer hours than
12 allowed, but, yes, this is an order prohibiting the sale of alcohol.
13 Q. We see at the bottom that a person is appointed to a certain
14 position, but that's a different topic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1437 under seal, Your Honours.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can we see 1D3620. We're now on the subject of Bijeljina, and
20 while we're on it, let's see what the authorities in Bijeljina were
21 trying to do. 1D3620.
22 8 April 1992, the very beginning of the war. Presidency of the
23 Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina. Cvijetin Simic, pursuant to his
24 authority, issues this order prohibiting the carrying of weapons in
25 public by persons not in uniform and unauthorised persons. It says:
1 Persons -- it says un-uniformed and unauthorised persons are hereby
2 prohibited from carrying weapons without a permit in public within the
3 territory of Bijeljina municipality and it envisions certain sanctions in
4 case of violation.
5 A. I know about this order. It helped me when I came there. We
6 enforced it, because many un-uniformed people carried ammunition belts,
7 wore ammunition belts and carried even rifles. There were even
8 psychiatric patients whom I had known from before carrying weapons, going
9 about town, and it was pursuant to this order that we were able to disarm
10 them, take them to the misdemeanour court, and I think this order had a
11 very good effect in the town of Bijeljina.
12 Q. We have to clear up one thing for the sake of precision. When
13 you mention the Crisis Staff, do you make a distinction between the
14 Presidency of the municipality, the Territorial Defence Staff, and the
15 Crisis Staff? You see, on the 8th of April, Bijeljina does not have a
16 Crisis Staff any more. It has a Presidency.
17 A. Mr. Karadzic, you know that the Presidency in Bijeljina was
18 established already in April and was operative, but there was a
19 Crisis Staff that operated where the leading people in the municipality
20 met and made key decisions. I don't know what that body was called. All
21 I know is that the head of the Crisis Staff was Mauzer, and he was also a
22 deputy to the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina. He was not a member of
23 the Crisis Staff, but he was the chairman of the personnel commission, I
24 think. But when certain decisions and restructuring were done regarding
25 the Crisis Staff, he took over the functions of the Crisis Staff,
1 replacing Cvijetin Simic, and he didn't let Cvijetin Simic do any of
2 that. He wanted to do it himself.
3 I don't know exactly how he did it, but I heard from people that
4 he arrogated all this authority very brutally, and for a year or so he
5 acted as the head of the Crisis Staff, as person number one in Bijeljina
6 who was able to make any sort of decision, do whatever he wanted without
7 being afraid of any punishment or even being confronted by anyone. And I
8 see that there are, on the other hand, very useful orders such as this
9 one prohibiting the carrying of weapons in public, helping to restore law
10 and order.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1438, Your Honours.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in this context I'm just
16 wondering why the previous one was put under seal, because that's not --
17 not different from what -- what we have here from the former. It's a
18 decision, so why would it be under seal?
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE KWON: Could you help us in this regard, Mr. Karadzic?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I quite understand what
22 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff is saying, because this passage that I didn't want to
23 be seen has not been translated. The English version, in any case, does
24 not have to be under seal.
25 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, we'll put it in the public
1 domain. Yes. We admit it publicly.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I wonder, I thought this, what
3 we have, the English translation would be reflecting the B/C/S document,
4 but then I hear there is something not translated. I'm just wondering
5 what that is.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Was it the case or you just wanted not to
7 broadcast the document?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second part, the untranslated
9 one, refers to a different decision about an appointment, and it's not an
10 integral part. It's not organically linked with this first order. If we
11 go into private session briefly, I'll explain.
12 JUDGE KWON: I think that's sufficient.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's proceed.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3621, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: But we have to be very precise in terms of admitting
17 that document. You need to redact the unnecessary part from the Serbian
18 version then. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you please focus on this. In Bijeljina, at the session of
22 the Municipal Assembly, which is working on the 10th of April, the
23 Presidency of the Municipal Assembly made a decision to amend the
24 decision on the names of squares and streets in the town of Bijeljina and
25 the settlements of Janja and Dvorovi. Take a look at this and I'll put
1 this proposition to you: Certain streets are renamed because they had
2 been named by Partisans or Chetniks or whatever, Communist regime, and
3 they are renamed to remove these Communist names. Let's see what happens
4 with Muslim names. Number 4, Hamze Hamzic Street shall be renamed
5 Mehmeda Spaho street. So one Muslim name is being replaced by another
6 Muslim name, correct? Is that right? Is it right that
7 Hamze Hamzic Street, who was Muslim, probably a partisan fighter, is
8 renamed Mehmeda Spaho Street; right? And both of them were Muslims.
9 It's not on the transcript. Can we have an answer from you?
10 Mr. Davidovic?
11 A. Yes. You're asking me?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes, streets were renamed, but they were renamed into the names
14 of Muslims who were suitable in the eyes of Serbs. For instance, the
15 street called Jaksic Brothers, was renamed into
16 Second Lieutenant Smajic Street. Second Lieutenant Smajic got killed
17 fighting for the Serbian Army in Vukovar. That's how they wanted to
18 acknowledge the fact. Then the street you mentioned,
19 Hamze Hamzic Street, I can't see how it was renamed. Mehmed Spaho. You
20 know who Mehmed Spaho was and what role he played in the
21 Second World War. So all of these are streets that were an eyesore to
22 the Muslim people, and they still want these streets to be renamed again
23 because there was the street that was renamed into
24 Serbian Volunteer Guard.
25 Q. Let me put it to you that's my case, Mehmed Spaho was the leader
1 of a pro-Yugoslav Muslim organisation. His name is given to the street
2 previously called Hamze Hamzic who was a Communist. Then Fadil Jahic
3 Spaniard Street, a fighter in the Spanish civil war, is renamed into the
4 name of the member of the young Bosnia organisation; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please slow down.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, slow down and start again.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So number 7, Brothers Jaksic street is renamed into
10 Second Lieutenant Smajic street, a Muslim who got killed in the JNA.
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Jaksic Brothers, were they Serbs?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Point 9. Ivan Markovic, Irishman Street is renamed Hasan Kikic.
15 Ivan Markovic Irishman is a Serb, whereas Hasan Kikic is a Muslim, an
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Point 12. Patris Lumumba street, a leader of Angola, is renamed
19 into Camil Sijerica street, Camil Sijeric being a famous author?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Alija Alijagic street, and Alija Alijagic was a Communist and an
22 assassin of a minister before the war --
23 A. Minister Draskovic in Zagreb.
24 Q. -- is renamed into Meso Selimovic, a great writer of Muslim
25 origin; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can we see the next page. 21, the name Muslim Brigades --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, while you're complaining about the
4 shortage of time, I'm struggling to see the point of reading out all
5 these names. What's the relevance?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the war had
7 already started, and in the renaming of streets there is nothing
8 discriminatory or ethnic. It is all about politics. The names of Muslim
9 Communists are replaced by the names of Muslim intellectuals, writers,
10 authors, people whose value is less transitory. The point is that the
11 authorities in Bijeljina are making changes not on an ethnic basis but an
12 ideological basis, without removing Muslim names. That's the point.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please spare us your comments.
15 JUDGE KWON: No. You can put your question simply, in a simpler
16 manner, but reading out all these streets names was pointless. That was
17 my point.
18 Yes, since you've heard the accused, you are entitled to answer,
19 Mr. Davidovic. Please go ahead.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should not deprive me of my
21 right to comment. If streets were renamed, I must tell you that some
22 streets were renamed four times during the war and some of these names
23 have been completely eliminated. It's true that Muslim names were
24 sometimes given to Serbian streets with the aim of acknowledging people
25 who were taking the Serbian side, who were somehow suitable to the
1 Serbian spirit. You know who Meso Selimovic is. All these people were
2 close to the Serbian people and who supported the Serbian people in their
3 literary or other work. But Muslims never accepted the new names of
4 these streets and they still challenge them and they still demand that
5 streets be renamed back and that Meso Selimovic and Hasan Kikic and this
6 lieutenant what's-his-name who replaced Jaksic brothers be removed
7 because these names irritate the Muslims. Why were these names given in
8 the first place because it was effective vis-a-vis the Muslims.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Look at point 21. Muslim Brigades Street - and Muslim Brigades
11 was a Partisan Communist brigade - is just renamed Muslim Street. And my
12 case is that this is about ideology, not about ethnicity. Those were
13 pro-Yugoslav Muslims, and the Serbian side wants and supports
14 pro-Yugoslav Muslims. It's their right. And the Muslims who were either
15 anti-Yugoslav or Communist were removed as street names.
16 A. This street that you say was renamed Muslim Street was renamed
17 again a couple of months later.
18 Q. My question is --
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. --
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Was the name of one Muslim replaced by the name of another
22 Muslim? That's what I'm asking.
23 JUDGE KWON: Please bear in mind the invaluable advice given
24 Judge Baird. Put your question one by one, if you would like to get the
25 answer, if at all. So this question was whether one Muslim name was
1 replaced by another Muslim name. Is that your question, Mr. Karadzic?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. My question was whether the
3 reason for these changes was ideological or ethnic, when the Muslim
4 street names were removed or was that something that went along with the
5 change of the system and a change of the favourites. The Serbs favoured
6 pro-Yugoslav Muslims and Muslim authors rather than the Muslim
7 revolutionaries. Was Hasan Kikic both revolutionary and a writer, but he
8 was more a writer.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to answer.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. No. My question is whether he was a well-known writer and that
12 it was more important that he was a writer than that he was a
14 A. Yes, he was a writer. Meso Selimovic was also a writer.
15 Ivo Andric is a writer as well but the Muslim population did not see him
16 as their writer; that's the problem. He is a writer and we rightfully
17 treated him as one but the Muslim population did not accept him, for the
18 reason that they thought that it was at the detriment of the Muslim
19 people. That was the reason why I'm saying this. It was all calculated
20 to change names, to rename the streets after Muslims again, but people
21 who had sympathies for the Serbs. You know why Meso Selimovic moved into
22 Belgrade and you know about the murder of his brother, so let me not talk
23 about this background information. You know that all that was calculated
24 to irritate Muslims in this way, by letting them know who were the
25 Muslims who can be acceptable for the Serbs, those who were inclined to
1 us. I'm not going to say that writers were obeying us, but --
2 Q. Sir, Meso Selimovic is really a big writer.
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And in item 21, it says the Muslim Brigade Street change into
5 Muslim Street. So who doesn't like the Muslim Street?
6 A. You know how long it remained the Muslim Street? They removed
7 the name.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted? I wonder they
9 did not remove them all. Perhaps we should have named streets after the
10 Muslims who were Ustashas.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, please. And don't ascribe to
12 me something I never said.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1439, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3622, please.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Davidovic, this is also a decision from the meeting of the
19 Presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, dated the 14th of
20 April, on the appointment of commission for enrolling children into the
21 first grade of primary school. Number one primary school
22 Muhamed Mehmedbasic in Bijeljina. Did you know that one of the schools
23 was called Muhamed Mehmedbasic and that he was a Muslim?
24 A. This is the first time I hear about the name of this school and
25 it is the first time that I see that that was the name it had. I never
1 heard it or came across that that there was a school with such a name in
3 Q. Thank you. Can you please have a look at item number 2.
4 Fatima Odzakovic was an employee. She was a children's psychologist at
5 this school.
6 A. Yes, but she was removed from office and left from the school.
7 Q. Do you have evidence?
8 A. Yes. They wrote to us about this several times.
9 Q. Can we see the next page please. Under item 5, Primary School
10 Meso Selimovic in Janja. Psychologist teacher Jasarevic, Dzana; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you see under item 6, Dzana Jasarevic was a children's
13 psychologist at another school in Glavicica?
14 A. That was just one class in Glavicica.
15 Q. Is this Dzana also a Muslim?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Can we see the next page just to see that it was
18 signed by Cvijetin Simic?
19 A. Can you just tell me what date was that.
20 Q. The 14th of April, 1992. So it was in the middle of the war.
21 A. It was at the outbreak of the war. They were appointed on the
22 14th of April. Were they still there in September when the school year
24 Q. Please let us stick to the subject.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would ask for this to be admitted
1 now, and I will present another document.
2 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1440, Your Honours.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 8276, please. Can we please
5 have 1D3623, because I cannot identify the date here. So we don't need
6 this one. 1D3623, please.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
8 Q. This is a decision on maintaining law and order in Bijeljina.
9 Cvijetin Simic once again. The 28th of April, 1992, and item 1 talks
10 about maintaining law and order and that that can be done only by members
11 of active duty and reserve police.
12 In item 2, setting up local check-points in local communes is
13 prohibited and carrying out the said duties by civilians and other
14 unauthorised persons.
15 Would you agree that this is also the implementation of law and
16 order rather than implementing chaos?
17 A. A decision about public law and order existed even before this
18 one. Something was changed in certain items, among other things that it
19 was prohibited to set up check-points in villages and the decision on
20 public law and order and the security of traffic existed in the territory
21 of the municipality even before this was adopted. So this was not the
22 first decision relating to public law and order that was adopted. As far
23 as I was in the police there, such a decision existed and I was
24 responsible for its implementation.
25 Q. Mr. Davidovic, why are you trying to devalue this? Of course it
1 existed, but then Simic was giving support to that, and you arrested
2 people on the basis of that?
3 A. Absolutely. Even if he hadn't, we would be acting in accordance
4 with the previous decision. So there is nothing contested about that.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted and have
6 another document before the break? Can this be admitted, please, 1D --
7 JUDGE KWON: We mark it for identification again.
8 THE REGISTRAR: 1D1441.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3624, please.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. 29th of May, same gentleman, Cvijetin Simic who is still
12 president of the presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina.
13 Would you agree this is a conclusion the presidency of the Bijeljina
14 municipality is of the view that the armed and uniformed groups and
15 individuals who have come to the area of Bijeljina from elsewhere and
16 without an invitation by the legal authorities of Bijeljina municipality
17 act in a manner which gives rise to the violations of public law and
18 order and endangers the security situation. In this connection, the
19 Presidency prohibits any engagement of any individual or group in any
20 other capacity in the organs of internal affairs or the Army of the
21 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as legal authorities, instructors or
22 any other capacity. Would you agree that in this way the Presidency of
23 the Bijeljina also tried to defend itself from incursions by various
24 persons who were armed?
25 A. I agree, but when I came there in the month of June, I found
1 Pejo, who was Arkan's deputy in SUP and one Sasa who was a komandir of
2 the police station. He had that duty and held that position. And the
3 other one had the insignia of chief inspector, just as I did. The
4 decision was adopted in May. I arrived in June, and I found him carrying
5 out the duty of the commander of the police station.
6 Q. Just another question, Mr. Davidovic. If they could implement
7 their decisions through their police, would you have been invited?
8 A. I have to tell you something frankly.
9 Q. Please --
10 A. No, please allow me.
11 Q. You are trying to slander this leadership. You said that they
12 liked the chaos. You see that they didn't. If they could have
13 implemented this decision without you would you have arrived at all?
14 A. Mr. Karadzic, I arrived with 15 men. What can 15 men do in such
15 a big area? You did not ask me how come that you came with 15 men and
16 you did what you did in Brcko, Bijeljina, and Zvornik. Bijeljina could
17 have done that. It did not need the federal SUP, nor did anyone have to
18 come to help it disarm paramilitaries. It had legal institutions, organs
19 and the police which was professionally trained so they could do that.
20 When I arrived I contacted the active duty policemen whom I knew. I told
21 them to do what was in accordance with the law and I allowed them to do
22 that. I didn't allow anyone to beat them, slap them across the face.
23 When they had this support for me as a police superior, the police really
24 started doing its work and public law and order was imposed in the town.
25 Fifteen men did not need to come there. It was a small unit that did
1 that. You didn't ask me how I managed to do that with 15 men. I didn't
2 do it with 15 men. I engaged active duty police then from Bijeljina,
3 from Brcko and from Zvornik and I managed to reinstitute the legal
5 Q. And, Mr. Davidovic, did Mico Stanisic place Karisik and members
6 of his unit at your disposal and give you authority to call for
7 reinforcement from Brcko and from Zvornik? Were you able on the basis of
8 this authority given to you by Minister Stanisic to enlarge the units and
9 to implement all this?
10 A. As I said, I asked Mr. Stanisic not to give me Karisik or his
11 help. I was afraid of Karisik's unit. I believed them to be
12 unprofessional and incompetent, and this unit was not sufficiently
13 efficient to do this work. At the insistence of Minister Stanisic, I
14 accepted the unit but I gave them peripheral duties that had to do with
15 dealing with the Yellow Wasps. What proved that I was right was that
16 when I left Zvornik for Belgrade, this unit which was headed by Karisik
17 was let me not the same as the Yellow Wasps but it had similar impact on
18 the population as the Yellow Wasps. They continued bringing into Muslim
19 apartments, seize them, live in them so they violated public law and
20 order and they also had serious problems with them just like when the
21 Yellow Wasps were in power.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted and,
23 Mr. Davidovic, none of that is true. We'll prove that. It was a high
24 profile and elite unit and you used it. Can it be admitted, please, and
25 then we'll continue.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
2 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I'm asking you this: Whether the authorities
3 for whom you say in the paragraph that we referred to wanted to have
4 chaos? Were they trying to have law and order or chaos?
5 A. Well, what happened once that we left.
6 Q. Wait. These authorities, this one is an active supporter of the
7 Prosecution. I'm trying to ask you whether they were trying to implement
8 law and order and that you were invited on the basis of that, but you're
9 saying, Yes, but. You say, Yes, but.
10 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to testify, Mr. Karadzic? Refrain
11 from making comments, and please slow down.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, you at the very
13 beginning --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I observed that the witness
16 tried to answer twice now and he was basically shouted down. This is
17 what I'm actually observing. I think that should not be allowed, that
18 he's basically shouting the witness down.
19 JUDGE KWON: I absolutely agree with you.
20 I think it's a perfect time to take a break. We'll break for an
21 hour. We'll deal with matters when we come -- yes Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I indicated I would
23 respond to the court about the reply and the timing the Court indicated
24 it had would like us to have it in, by the end of the day. If the end of
25 the day means close of business at 4.00 that would be difficult, but if
1 it means sometime today, I think we can do that.
2 JUDGE KWON: That would be appreciated. There's one further
3 matter. It may be better to be known at this moment. On the day before
4 yesterday, i.e., 28th of June, the Chamber admitted the associate exhibit
5 tendered through Mr. Milorad Davidovic with the exception of 14
6 statements which were listed in footnote 144 of his amalgamated statement
7 and for which it indicated that a decision would be issued in due course.
8 The Chamber has decided that these 14 statements would not be admitted
9 into evidence on the basis of the established practice that when it comes
10 to the statements of third parties, unless a witness comments on and
11 confirms or adopts the content of that statement, the third party
12 statement would not be admitted through that witness.
13 We'll rise and adjourn for an hour, resume at 1.40.
14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In relation to today's timing for the
19 witness, I would mention that I would have about 20 minutes to half an
20 hour of redirect.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Excuse me, can this previous document 1D3624 be admitted?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1442, Your Honours.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'll try, because I'm pressed for time, to put to
4 you as briefly as I can documents about the attempts to enforce law and
5 order just before you came to Bijeljina. 1D3625, please. This will show
6 why you were invited. 1D3625.
7 This first order, at the top I believe it's been translated, 11
8 June, Cvijetin Simic as president of the Municipal Presidency issues an
9 order, and ex officio, he's chairman of the Defence board of the
10 municipality. The order is to place under single -- under the single
11 command of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina all
12 armed units. Does this order indicate that this had been a problem?
13 A. Obviously.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: D1443, Your Honours.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3628.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. 25 June, perhaps one or two days before you arrived the same
20 Mr. Simic, president of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina passes this
21 conclusion which means the Assembly had convened and adopted this
22 conclusion: "To uphold the decision of the government and the Ministry
23 of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to send
24 Special Police Units or a Special Police Unit to Bijeljina to protect law
25 and order in co-operation with the Bijeljina public security station in
1 keeping with the regulation," and so on and so forth.
2 Is this another preparatory step for this major operation of
3 restoring order?
4 A. This is the first time I see this conclusion. I didn't know it
5 had been adopted, but obviously it had.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1444, Your Honours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3629, please.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. 25 June, pursuant to the previous conclusion, the president of
12 the Municipal Assembly now issues an order:
13 "Prohibiting uniformed and armed persons from moving in public in
14 Bijeljina unless authorised," et cetera.
15 "All armed and uniformed persons whose presence in public is not
16 in accordance with this order are hereby to be removed from all public
17 places in the municipality of Bijeljina." Is it what the order says?
18 A. Yes, that's the gist.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this 1D3629 will be admitted as Exhibit D1445.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, please P1478. It's a typed
22 page in English, 220, and in Serbian it's a typed page, 218.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. These are diary entries, entries in the diary of General Mladic.
25 We can move forward, perhaps, to earlier pages to see that it's the 23rd
1 of June, just before you came. P1478. I could like to see the typed
2 version, Serbian typed version pages 218, and the English typed version
3 is page 220. We can see that it's 23rd of June at 6.00 p.m. Yes. The
4 page is 217.
5 He notes down what I said:
6 "Karadzic: The following people are to go to Bijeljina tomorrow,
7 Plavsic, Krajisnik, Mladic, Subotic, Gvero, Tolimir. "
8 Next, I say:
9 "Two groups of paramilitary units are active in Semberija
10 (Mauzer's and Blagojevic's) groups. They are very extreme.
11 "All units must be placed under the single command of the army
12 and the police."
13 Next bullet point: "In Bijeljina try to resolve the problem
14 politically. They must not suspend the civilian authorities."
15 To the best of your knowledge were the civilian authorities in
16 the entire region including Zvornik and Bijeljina threatened by the
17 presence of these armed groups?
18 A. I believe they were. I believe in Semberija those authorities
19 were completely suspended because Mauzer had taken over completely as
20 president, as commander, as anything and everything and nobody was able
21 to confront him. I'm talking about Mauzer, whose real name is Savic.
22 Now, as far as Blagojevic is concerned, my answer would be a
23 little different, and I believe it needs clarifying. His role needs
24 clarifying, but only if you want me to. I believe this reflects the real
25 situation in Bijeljina.
1 Q. But to assist you, we agree, don't we, that Blagojevic was a more
2 positive character. He protected Muslims, did not arrest them, et
4 A. Well, this would require a slightly broader answer, if the
5 Trial Chamber allows.
6 Mirko Blagojevic at the outset was one of the people who was part
7 of this organisation, and then he transferred to Seselj's Radical Party.
8 With the beginning of the war, there occurred a flash -- a clash between
9 Mauzer and Blagojevic on personal grounds because Mauzer tried to
10 subordinate Blagojevic and to place Blagojevic's units under his own
11 command. Blagojevic refused. So at one point Blagojevic imposed a
12 complete blockade on Bijeljina, putting roadblocks on all access roads,
13 and of their own accord and self-will they arrested Mauzer, kept him in a
14 cellar, beating him.
15 I was around and General Gracanin gave me a call at the time and
16 told me that together with Pero Mihajlovic I should go to Bijeljina and
17 see what it's all about, to try to resolve this problem, to prevent
18 conflicts between Serbs. I came there. I found those roadblocks. At
19 the moment when I entered the SUP building Mauzer came to -- had come to
20 the SUP a few minutes before me. He had obviously been beaten. He had
21 managed to escape that basement somehow, and that conflict dates back to
22 that time.
23 Well, at the time I came to the SUP, the entire municipal
24 leadership was there, and they were discussing precisely that.
25 Q. Do you agree I could not have sent a stronger delegation to
1 Bijeljina, Plavsic, vice-president; Krajisnik, speaker of the Assembly;
2 Mladic; Subotic, et cetera? Don't you agree that these were people of
3 authority, a very strong delegation?
4 A. Yes. Those people had the authority to deal with the problem if
5 it could be dealt with.
6 Q. Could we see English page 313 and Serbian 311, also from the
7 Mladic diaries, where he notes what I said. It says:
8 "Karadzic: Regarding Muslims and Croats, we are going to build a
9 state with a rule of law, not an ethnically pure one."
10 The typed version, 311. Serbian typed version, 311. The English
11 page is good.
12 We are looking at the English page. Do you agree that it's not a
13 protest, it's a serious meeting discussing serious subjects?
14 A. Yes. I agree absolutely.
15 Q. We'll continue. We'll continue with these preparations to deal
16 with lawlessness.
17 Let's see how things -- what things looked like a bit later.
18 1D2751, please.
19 Do you agree -- I believe there is a translation. Do you agree
20 this is a telegram from me to the Ministry of the Interior of 29 April
21 1994? I'm saying the Main Staff had informed me that in several
22 municipalities, Teslic, Petrovo, Knezevo, Vogosca, Ilijas, attempts were
23 being made to set up paramilitary units? And in the last paragraph I say
24 it's necessary for the organs of the Ministry of the Interior to get
25 involved in exposing and preventing these activities. "All offenders
1 should be sanctioned, and I need to be kept advised of this."
2 Do you agree that's what I wrote to the minister?
3 A. Yes, in 1994.
4 Q. And it concerns fighting paramilitaries following a report from
5 the Main Staff.
6 A. Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1446, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now see
11 65 ter 13357.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you agree that on the same day I replied to the Main Staff,
14 personally to General Mladic, saying that I had ordered the Ministry of
15 the Interior to put in place these measures?
16 A. Yes. 29 April 1994.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1447, Your Honours.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3783, please. I don't know if
22 there is a translation. There is.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you agree on the same day the security advisor, on the
25 authority of the president and invoking the order of the Main Staff,
1 requires Petrovo municipality - and there is a similar document sent to
2 other municipalities - to report, and it says that what's going on there
3 runs counter to the order of the president to disarm paramilitary units,
4 and they require the municipalities to urgently inform the president of
5 the measures taken.
6 A. I agree. It's the same kind of document.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Davidovic --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Exhibit D1448.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. STRINGER: You said yesterday that information about the
12 legal troubles of your son was a media affair and that it had something
13 to do with your testimony in Krajisnik.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. After that, the Trial Chamber refused to admit those newspaper
16 articles and told me to show something else if I have it. Can I now call
17 up 1D3800.
18 We gave an order yesterday to our investigators to collect
19 evidence, and we have this evidence now before us. It has just arrived
20 today, but I'll read it because we have no translation.
21 The district prosecutor's office of Bijeljina. I'll read it
22 slowly. Number such and such, 30th June.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would actually oppose using
24 this document on the grounds of relevancy. If I can see it here, it
25 relates to not the witness but the witness's son, and looking at the
1 numbers, it seems to be matters from 2007, 2006. I don't really see that
2 there's any relevance to it.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, can you help us in this regard?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I have to note with regret
5 that this witness very carelessly involved both his son and my family in
6 his allegations, saying that his legal troubles resulted from his
7 testimony in Krajisnik, and in paragraph 205, he states that his son was
8 kidnapped, and that is also somehow connected, and he levies very serious
9 allegations against prominent officials of the MUP of Republika Srpska,
10 and of course he associates that with his testimony in Krajisnik. I am
11 very reluctant to deal with this, but this goes to credibility and the
12 essence of his evidence.
13 We now see that this has nothing to do with Krajisnik. The first
14 criminal report was in 1993, and there have been eight judgements in
15 total up until 2005.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would not like
17 to enter into polemics with you. My son is an adult, 40 years old. He
18 bears responsibility for his own behaviour.
19 I'll say something else. When his name is mentioned in newspaper
20 stories and --
21 JUDGE KWON: He wasn't asking a question yet to you. He
22 addressed me.
23 Mr. Karadzic, I think I told you we exhausted this issue
24 yesterday. Move on to another topic, please.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,
1 Your Excellency, you said I shouldn't bring newspaper articles, but if I
2 have something new, I should show it.
3 This goes to credibility. The witness associated the troubles of
4 his son with his own testimony, which is not true.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Davidovic, out of these eight judgements,
7 were five before 2005?
8 JUDGE KWON: No, no. Just a second. I will consult my
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber does not see the significant relevance
12 of this document. Please move on to another topic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, will paragraph 205 be
14 excluded from the statement?
15 JUDGE KWON: Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
18 Q. Mr. Davidovic, after Bijeljina and Brcko, you were invited by the
19 local leadership to help resolve the crisis in Zvornik; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You testified about that also in Belgrade in the trial of
22 Branko Grujic and others from Zvornik; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. 1D3793, please. It's the transcript of your testimony in
25 Zvornik -- I mean Belgrade, concerning the Zvornik case.
1 Is it true that in Zvornik once again you concluded that the
2 civilian authorities had no real power or ability to confront these
4 A. Yes. That's what I said at the beginning. When we arrived, they
5 were completely sidelined, and this group of Yellow Wasps had placed
6 those authorities, leadership, under their command and did whatever they
7 wanted. When they had done the job they had been paid for, then they
8 turned into their own opposites.
9 Q. Can we see page 4 in Serbian and 5 in English. It's the last
10 third in English, the last fourth in Serbian.
11 You say at all entry points in Zvornik they had their
12 check-points. They had their own men. They had full control over
13 everything going on in Zvornik. And you say the authorities had no
14 power. They were able to beat up policemen and anyone else; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can we now see Serbian page 5, English 6. You say Jekic, Zugic,
17 and you think Popovic came to see you. Jekic was from the MUP of Serbia;
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Zugic is the Goran Zugic who, as you confirmed, was killed in
21 Podgorica and had served in the state security in Podgorica and then
22 moved to the Serbian side.
23 A. Yes. He moved to Zvornik to work for the state security there.
24 Q. This Popovic was also a member of the Secret Service, but he hid
25 that and stayed in Zvornik under a false name.
1 A. He wasn't a member of the Secret Service. He pretended to be,
2 and he used a false name, but when I checked through the service to see
3 whether he indeed belonged to the security service, whether somebody had
4 sent him, I was unable to confirm that, and nobody in fact intervened for
5 him on any issue.
6 Q. Serbian 6, English 7, please. You confirmed on this page towards
7 the top, the second third, that with Colonel Salapura and Karisik, who
8 was a police general, which you did not mention here, you made a plan in
9 which everybody was assigned a key task and Zvornik was cut off from
10 Vlasenica. You had to cross a bridge to go to Zvornik.
11 A. No, no. It's not correct. Karisik did not participate in
12 planning or this operation. He was involved as a member of the special
13 unit he led, but he wasn't involved in the planning.
14 Q. Then I have to read:
15 "Together with me, Petar Salapura was involved in the staff. He
16 was a lieutenant-colonel or a colonel of the VRS. He was in the command
17 together with me. He planned and organised this operation."
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. "There was a special unit of the MUP led by Karisik."
20 A. That's correct. There was a special unit. This Petar Salapura
21 was involved in the planning, in all the details, but Karisik did not.
22 His unit only participated in the liberation of Zvornik from paramilitary
24 I'll tell you why you --
25 Q. We don't have time. Let me just read what you said. It's all
1 about precision. Perhaps you did not make this error deliberately.
2 "Milenko Karisik and I had an elaborate plan with detailed
3 assignments," et cetera. So Milenko Karisik participated in the
5 A. He didn't. He had an assignment. I just told him what his
6 assignment was in that plan. He didn't participate in the planning, and
7 he didn't know the whole plan. He use knew his own mission in that
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Did the -- did you say in that
11 transcript "Karisik and I had an elaborate plan"? Could you read that
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I read or --
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That operation, there was a special
16 unit of the MUP led by Milenko Karisik, and we had an elaborate plan. We
17 had an elaborate plan that means, where everyone got a detailed
18 assignment what and where they are supposed to do.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you. Then Jekic came to see you to ask your assistance in
22 disarming them.
23 A. Yes, twice or thrice.
24 Q. English page 7 -- sorry, 8. He described what they were doing in
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can we see Serbian page 10, English 13. You say when you made
3 the arrests and neutralised this large group of 100 to 150
4 paramilitaries, Branko Grujic, president of the municipality -- or,
5 rather, the temporary government of Zvornik, couldn't believe it. He
6 even cried from joy. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That's English page 13, straddling 14. Thank you.
9 He couldn't believe it. He asked you several times, "Is it
10 really true they were arrested?"
11 A. And he said, "Will they be released?" One woman who was on that
12 staff was from Sekovici, married to some doctor in Zvornik. I knew her
13 name. I forgot it.
14 Q. Can we now see page 17, then 18 in English and Serbian 14. I'm
15 confused Mr. Davidovic, because in Belgrade you said, "When I arrested
16 them, I knew it. I took statements from them."
17 Whereas yesterday you told us somebody else took those
19 A. Do you want an answer?
20 Q. Doesn't it say here, "When I arrested them, I knew. I took
21 statements from them."
22 A. When we arrested them and brought them to Bijeljina, a group of
23 crime inspectors was set up located in offices interviewing several
24 people, taking statements. As far as I was able to, I took the time to
25 visit all these offices, to listen for a while to these interviews and
1 hear what the arrested men were saying. So I didn't spend a lot of time
2 on all of it, but I wanted to follow all this work, to be kept informed
3 about what the service was doing, so I visited those interviews for a
5 Q. English page 22. That's where you describe how it happened. The
6 Yellow Wasps were not always called Yellow Wasps. They had a different
7 name in the outset. They were volunteers. They went to the front line.
8 When they got fed up with it, they came back to urban areas and
9 established control there. Correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Serbian, it's page 17 and 18, English 22. Then English page --
12 sorry, Serbian 19, and English page 23, the last paragraph, then on to
13 page 24.
14 You said here and there that Batkovic camp had been formed by the
15 municipality as a labour camp.
16 A. I said the same thing as here. Before the decision was issued to
17 appoint the camp commander, the army had first approached the
18 General Dencic, and that was later confirmed by Colonel Ilic, and they
19 asked for premises for a facility where some sort of labour camp or a
20 collection centre for Muslims would be placed. The municipality asked an
21 enterprise called Semberija, and this enterprise told them they could use
22 their facility in Batkovic where this company had one of its facilities,
23 agricultural facilities, large barns, large hangars where they kept
24 agricultural machinery. They had large plots of land. It was their
25 farm. And the municipality then suggested to the army and gave its
1 approval that the army may use it.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know that somebody misinformed you? Batkovic
3 was a legal and legitimate camp for prisoners of war, not for Muslims who
4 did not respond to call-up, as it says on page 24 in English and 19 in
5 Serbian. It was legitimate, and it was the only central prison for
6 prisoners of war from which persons were exchanged. Do you know about
8 A. In the beginning when the camp in Batkovic was established,
9 persons were brought there from Brezevo Polje, also some persons from
10 Zvornik, and some from Bijeljina. Later on when people found out about
11 this, because at first no one spoke about Batkovic in public, and I
12 remember the press conference that was held on that day in Bijeljina when
13 we arrested the Yellow Wasps. That is when a large group of some 50-odd
14 journalists came from Belgrade, from Serbia, and they asked whether it
15 was true there was some camp called Batkovic somewhere, and they asked
16 whether I knew about that. I was answering the journalists' questions
17 then, and I realised that that was the first time they started putting
18 serious questions about this camp. Later on when this camp was taken
19 over by the military and, as I said, it was people from Brezevo Polje,
20 Brcko and Bijeljina that were kept there, also people from Zvornik,
21 Janja, et cetera, these persons were taken from there to labour on
22 Majevica, in the Semberija company, also in some companies like the
23 construction company Rad and so on. They took them there and brought
24 them back, and later on this camp or -- well, this labour camp as they
25 called it, grew into a camp for prisoners of war. I did not know that
1 prisoners of war were kept there. I did not realise that that was how it
2 was defined later, that such persons were brought there, but I do know
3 that the International Red Cross came later and that one knew who the
4 persons there were kept and how many were there.
5 Q. 1776 65 ter. I need to call that up. It's not on the list, but
6 due to this answer of yours I have to ask for this document. 11776.
7 This is a document of the Eastern Bosnia Corps. It's got to have
8 a translation, I think, because it's a 65 ter document, and instructions
9 are being provided here concerning the organisation of life and work at
10 Ekonomija, and everything is prescribed there, what people do, when they
11 go out for a walk, everything. Just look at this document.
12 A. Yes, I've seen it.
13 Q. So this was a camp for prisoners of war. As for any proof of it
14 being something else, do you have any proof?
15 A. I know of facts and I speak about facts, and I know people who
16 were there and who had work obligations who went there and came back and
17 so on.
18 Q. Since there is no translation I will have to read out at least
19 the first paragraph. It says:
20 "On the order of the commander of the East Bosnia Corps, strictly
21 confidential," et cetera, et cetera, "the instructions on the treatment
22 of imprisoned persons number," et cetera, et cetera, "on the 13th of
23 June, 1992, the ministry of the defence of the Serb Republic of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina and regulations concerning International Law of War, I
25 hereby prescribe this instruction on the organisation of life and work in
1 the camp and the rights and obligations of persons who are prisoners
3 Do you see anything here that would be in contravention of the
4 Geneva Convention?
5 A. Mr. Karadzic, I said that I knew about this when I came to
6 Bijeljina because Colonel Ilic told me that in Batkovic there is this
7 camp, that the commander of that camp was appointed and that the function
8 of this camp was determined by the corps command.
9 I would like to say something to you that is not included in
10 these instructions here. Actually, beforehand, they came to different
11 facilities looking for something that would be a proper location for this
12 kind of camp. It wasn't only Batkovic. They had a few options, and they
13 visited them, and they even thought it would be near Ugljevik, near the
14 mine there, and then other places were considered too.
15 While this procedure was underway for this to be a collection
16 camp in Batkovic, a fence was being built, also a door. Where the
17 machines were, they put up a door so that it could be closed.
18 Q. Thank you. Can we have the next page. Item 10. Actually, on
19 the top of this page it says, "Valuables, money, and other personal
20 property of value can be temporarily taken away and returned when persons
21 are dismissed from the camp ...," and so on.
22 And then item 10 says:
23 "A list of persons kept in this camp concerning their personal
24 details shall be submitted to the Red Cross of the municipality of
25 Bijeljina with a view to provide the information to their relatives and
1 to the International Red Cross. The persons who are kept prisoner have
2 to be treated humanely and violence should not be applied against them.
3 Exceptionally, if the prescribed order is disrupted, then measures of
4 force may be applied."
5 And also there's a reference to the entry of unauthorised
7 Do you agree that these instructions were written up in
8 accordance with the norms of international humanitarian law?
9 A. Absolutely. Despot, the first commander of the camp compiled
10 these instructions. He was appointed by the military. He was a
11 lieutenant-colonel. He lived in Nis. I know him personally, and I
12 personally discussed this with him.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1449, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the next item, Mr. Tieger,
18 I have just noted that a motion was filed in relation to the next witness
19 asking for a reconsideration. We would be benefitted if we could have
20 your response by the end of today.
21 MR. TIEGER: I've been in communication about that, Your Honour.
22 That may be -- well, it will be difficult. Of course we'll try to do it,
23 but I wouldn't at this point want to preclude the possibility of the
24 Prosecution having to respond orally at the beginning of the day
25 tomorrow, but we'll do our best.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3793. We're going back to that
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. We're going back to the transcript of your testimony in Belgrade.
7 Is it correct that this Djurkovic had his counterpart or partner on the
8 Muslim side and that they were some kind of a commission for exchanging
9 civilians and family reunification?
10 A. As far as I know, on the other side there was also a person that
11 co-ordinated the work of these groups -- or, rather, the exchange of
12 persons. This is a man who is a lawyer. I think his name is -- now, was
13 it Bakir Pasic or -- I cannot remember right now. There's so many names
14 in my head. I think that it is Bakir Pasic. He was born in Bijeljina.
15 There was full co-operation with him when persons were being exchanged
16 through institutions. Then lists were provided to Djurkovic. That is to
17 say persons that should be brought over for exchanges, because there were
18 some who asked through persons like Bakir to be brought in and then taken
19 to Tuzla, and in return Djurkovic asked for other persons of Serb
20 ethnicity be brought there and then exchanged. These were contacts that
21 they managed themselves without involving persons who were in detention
22 or in prison or the like.
23 Q. If I understand correctly, these were not prisoners of war but
24 civilians and their family members. Is it correct that this Bakir gave
25 this wish list of the Muslims, which ones they wanted in Tuzla, and then
1 he got from Vojkan the wish list of the Serbs, which are the Serbs they
2 want from Tuzla?
3 A. Yes. I know that. People would say get my mother, get my
4 father, et cetera, and then Djurkovic would say in return, "Bring me such
5 and such a person who was in the territory of Tuzla." And that's a fact.
6 Q. Thank you. In Serbian it's page 20 and in English 25 and 26.
7 They collected money for these services; right?
8 A. I think so. I cannot be certain, but that's what I assume.
9 Nothing was done free of charge in that war. Everything had a price.
10 Q. Thank you. Now it's Serbian page 21 and English 26. And you say
11 that the Serbs either from Batkovic or elsewhere were taken towards Brcko
12 or Ban Brdo in the territory of Majevica. They would take them off buses
13 and have them exchanged; right?
14 A. They would take them out of buses and if it was at Ban Brdo and
15 Majevica then they would be released and then they walked down a road
16 because that's where the separation line was, and then as they get close
17 to this zone where the Muslim forces are sometimes there would be
18 shooting, random gunfire, and then they'd wait there for a while and
19 sometimes they would be taken by trucks to Brcko and then they'd go to
20 the separation line near Rahic. Again they would be released, crossed
21 the line kept by the Serb forces, and then they crossed the lines to the
22 Muslim forces and that is how they exchanged them.
23 Well, I mean they didn't exchange them. That's how they took
24 them. Exchanges took place later in a different way.
25 Q. On page 21 in Serbian, 26 in English, you mentioned that there
1 was some agency, some tourist agency within the SUP where you could
2 legally apply, give 2.500, hand over a passport ten days in advance and
3 in the amalgamated statement you corrected yourself and you said it
4 wasn't in the MUP but that the MUP -- sorry. Actually, on page 21, have
5 a look at it. Within SUP it was established, or rather, a travel agency
6 was established. Actually, it was another witness who said where it was
7 and that it was legal. Legally people would apply, pay, hand over their
8 passport and then travel abroad; right?
9 A. Yes. There was this organisation attached to the SUP or
10 whatever, but I know that Kovac gave his consent at the time to the
11 effect that Muslims who wanted to leave certainly had to pay from 2.500
12 to 5.000 marks. Some were actually staying at a hotel waiting for a
13 certain group to be established, then contact would be established with
14 the MUP of Serbia. At that point in time, it was Puzovic who was head of
15 the border department and then co-operation would be established and an
16 agreement would be reached as to how many buses should be there. Then
17 Vojkan Djurkovic would head that column, take over these persons and
18 sometimes escort them with police cars to Sentilj. No, not Sentilj,
19 Horgos, on the Hungarian border near Subotica and then they'd take them
20 to our border. They would check their passports. They would let them go
21 towards Hungary. The Hungarians didn't want to take them in, and then
22 between the two borders a group of buses would spend a day or two or
23 three there until the Red Cross arrived, took them over and then put them
24 up in different countries in Europe.
25 Q. Thank you. On page 29 Serbian, 37 English, you call these
1 persons who you arrested dogs of war. Do you still stand by that?
2 A. Yes. That is a name used for person who go wherever there is a
3 war in order to be able to loot. They stop at nothing. They only pursue
4 their own interests and they find it in looting.
5 Q. You repeated on page 40 in Serbian, 51 English, that you were
6 asked to come on the basis of the conversation at that took place between
7 Panic and Karadzic. That is the Yugoslav Prime Minister Panic; right?
8 A. Yes, yes. Everything I said here as well. That is what I was
9 told at the time, that it was at your request at the time.
10 Q. On page 41 now in Serbian, 52 in English, it says the
11 Presiding Judge is asking you did you know that later on proceedings were
12 stopped against these persons? This is a reference to the Yellow Wasps.
13 They were no longer in detention, and the proceedings were suspended.
14 "Answer: No, I just know that they were released from detention
15 and I know what happened to Vuckovic. I was with my unit in Pljevlja at
16 the time ...," et cetera. So you said that you did not know at that
17 point in time that proceedings had been stopped but you did know that
18 they were released from detention?
19 A. Mr. Karadzic, I never said that proceedings against them were
20 stopped. I've been saying throughout that proceedings were against them,
21 but they were actually in detention for 30 days and then released. I see
22 that this document in front of me Serbia is asking for a continuation of
23 proceedings and so on. However, these proceedings were never brought to
24 an end in Bosnia. Information was sought, and the proceedings stopped at
25 that point because these persons went to Serbia and never came back.
1 Although they actually did come back. They did cross the border. They
2 did come to Zvornik and Bijeljina, but these proceedings were not
3 completed. It was only later on the basis of what you said yourself and
4 on the basis of information gathered by the Republic of Serbia through
5 their subsequent activities. They came to learn that crimes had been
6 committed and then proceedings were instituted much later in Sabac on the
7 basis of the information that they had had.
8 Q. Thank you. Where were the Vuckovic brothers arrested?
9 A. In Sabac.
10 Q. You arrested them; right?
11 A. Not I personally, but Dragan Andan and three other members of the
12 federal SUP.
13 Q. And then the proposal was -- actually, Sabac is in Serbia; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The proposal was to have them transported to Bosnia while their
16 followers were arrested in Zvornik itself, Republika Srpska; right?
17 A. That's right. They were in Zvornik all day long until late at
18 night, but they were afraid of being arrested. And during the night they
19 would cross the Drina River and spend the night there. I was not aware
20 of that. As I was preparing to carry out this operation, Jekic came to
21 see me and said to me, inter alia, I'm offering you this possibility to
22 arrest Zuco and Repic, because during the night they are not in Bosnia.
23 And I asked how come he knew, and he said I know they're in Sabac and I'm
24 offering this to you. You can arrest them in Sabac, in Serbia, and you
25 can bring them to Bosnia.
1 I accepted to look into that, and then I was told that I would be
2 given this possibility of arresting them, taking them to Bosnia, and then
3 he said and then we would arrest them and in this way kill them and close
4 the page regarding these fools.
5 I actually violated this agreement, because proceedings were
6 underway after I arrested them. In Serbia, they didn't even know about
7 this when this proposal was made, along with a criminal report three days
8 later, I received -- well, not exactly threats, but I was criticised.
9 They were asking what I had done. They wanted to get me there. They
10 wanted me -- they wanted to make me do something illegal, and then they
11 would say, Uh-huh, now you have to do what we tell you to do. I managed
12 to save myself. I did not do anything that would be held against me
13 later. However, this was held against me in Serbia, and I had very
14 serious problems because of that.
15 Q. Thank you. Let us focus on page 43 in Serbian and 54/55 in
16 English. In Davidovic just now described this offer to have them
17 arrested in Serbia, brought over to Bosnia -- or, rather,
18 Republika Srpska, and be liquidated there, and they ask you why. You
19 explain why.
20 Let me ask you, Mr. Davidovic, were you sorry about me as the
21 president of the country in which one Pavlovic or Popovic and one Jekic
22 were doing what they wanted and wondering whether they would arrest or
23 liquidate someone in the country that I was responsible for?
24 A. I must say, Mr. Karadzic, that as president you had great
25 responsibility at the time, but I reflected about this frequently,
1 whether you knew all this or whether you couldn't prevent it, but
2 objectively speaking, there was great chaos. And how was it possible
3 that you didn't manage to find associates who were trusted men, who were
4 able, and who were willing to do everything in accordance with the law,
5 because I see that you insisted on these legal measures. I must say that
6 up until today or yesterday, I didn't know that you wrote so many orders
7 and requested that legal measures be taken, and your name was always
8 mentioned in any context. Whatever anyone did, he always claimed to have
9 the approval of President Karadzic. Krajisnik or Karadzic were those who
10 decided. I did reflect about this and I must admit that sometimes I
11 wondered why did he invite us to come over when all that was happening
12 and taking place? I tried to be, let me not say realistic, but I was
13 thinking as a professional how was it possible that no one did what we
14 had to do, because it was nothing that required special -- a special
15 level of professionalism. It's a daily job for the police. You just
16 have to be decisive enough and professionally capable of doing it
17 properly, if they had your support. And I see through all this they
18 could have had your support, so they shouldn't have been afraid of
19 possible consequences of such activities. If I had known of this
20 support, I would have returned from Serbia to the MUP and I would have
21 placed myself at your disposal, and you may be sure that you wouldn't be
22 sitting here today.
23 Q. Thank you. You had, in addition to your 15 men, another 300 men
24 at your disposal from the army, from Salapura and from Stanisic from
25 police; correct?
1 A. Yes. That was a significant armed group, and when we entered
2 Zvornik that implied combat activities. That is to say, we fired shots,
3 they were shooting at us. Someone could have gotten killed on either
4 side, but fortunately, no one got wounded. And I must say we used more
5 chemical weapons to chase them out of apartments and houses and in this
6 way we arrested them. So we prevented any killings in the shoot-out
7 between us.
8 JUDGE KWON: Please slow down and note how your question was
9 reflected in the transcript and please slow down.
10 Q. It has not been recorded. You are right when you said that I
11 said that Mr. Davidovic, in addition to his 15 men, had at his disposal
12 from our police and our army an additional number of up to 300 men and
13 you arrested a total of almost 200 men, about 180 members of the
14 Yellow Wasps; correct?
15 A. Yes. I just need to clarify the number of 300 men. When I went
16 to Bosnia, primarily to Bijeljina, I knew what people I would have at my
17 disposal in Bijeljina. I also knew some of the people in Brcko,
18 primarily, I have in mind the active duty policemen. And when, in
19 addition to my 15 men, I would have 50 or 60 professionally trained
20 policemen from Bijeljina, a part of the military police from Bijeljina, I
21 would also have the support of people in Zvornik who were also active
22 duty policemen. I had a military unit which was sent by the Main Staff
23 and Karisik's unit, numbering 150 men. I was then certain that they
24 couldn't slip away or put up such resistance that we would have to
25 withdraw. I knew that we could carry out this task and this is why I had
1 to organise such a number of men from the police on such a large scale
2 that is to say.
3 Q. Thank you. You were asked a similar question by a member of the
4 Trial Chamber, Judge Olivera Andjelkovic in Belgrade, on page English 59
5 and in Serbian it's page 46, and then on page 47. And on page 47, you
6 say, answering to the question, "Local, could it be local or a wider
8 And you say: "What do you mean? It was the same everywhere. In
9 Brcko there was a man with a pony-tail and in sneakers and he would say I
10 am the commander of the police ..."
11 And so on and so forth. Please have a look at paragraph 1 on
12 page 47, "Where it was very dangerous," it says, "to kill a man.
13 Immediately he would kill you. He came there and he was killing ...,"
14 and so on and so forth, "he was not -- he did not report to anyone if you
15 looked at him he would kill you."
16 So you were aware then that the local forces cannot deal with you
17 or put up any resistance unless they got some reinforcement.
18 A. Just to make it clear, police is quite a strong force. If it is
19 well organised, as in Brcko, there were almost 90 active duty policemen
20 plus the reserve composition of the police. The groups that arrived were
21 always numbering 15, 16, 20 men.
22 As soon as they arrived, the paramilitaries would enter the SUP,
23 and it's interesting that they would enter the SUP, they would introduce
24 themselves, and say we are such-and-such forces, we are the Eagles, we
25 are Arkan's men, we are the Red Berets, and they would take over the
1 positions and everyone in the SUP would keep silent from the superiors to
2 active-duty policemen, and wait to see what these men would do. This is
3 something I could never understand. When I came to a SUP, particularly
4 when she asked me about Brcko, it's correct, I came in front of the
5 Brcko SUP building and a young man who was wearing some sort of
6 camouflage uniform and a hat on his head, he was wearing white sneakers
7 and he had gloves without the tops of the fingers with a Heckler in his
8 hands, and he asked me, "Who are these men?"
9 And I said, "Well, I'm the chief inspector, Davidovic." And I
10 asked him, "Who are you?"
11 And he said, "I'm the station commander." And again he asked me,
12 "Who are you? What do you want?"
13 I had to tell him, "I am the state." What else can you say to
14 such a person at such a moment? I am the state. I am the official state
16 Q. He would say that?
17 A. No. I said that. And immediately I would arrest him on the
18 spot. People I had with me were quite well trained to one single sign
19 from me. They could take care of such a man. This -- so this is what I
20 did. So when I arrested three, four, or five men that I found in the
21 SUP, at that moment the situation would change. A new situation would
22 arise. Those who were not really official members of the organ would try
23 to flee, try to hide, and I would reconstitute the active duty policemen,
24 who would begin to work. We would have to go to the municipality, we had
25 to take over the municipal building and we would reinstate the legal
1 organs which had to do their work. We were doing this in Brcko, in
2 Bijeljina and in Zvornik. In Zvornik, it was somewhat more difficult,
3 but we did the same there.
4 Q. Thank you. Let me remind you, do you remember and do you agree
5 that Andan in his analysis about Brcko said that they are grateful to the
6 army, that it allowed 120 or 150 policemen to return from the front line?
7 The fact that regular police had to go out onto defence lines, was it
8 something that also had a negative impact on the implementation of law
9 and order?
10 A. Well, I did not want to comment on what Dragan Andan said and
11 which you presented to me. I passed over it in silence for a simple
12 reason. You are angry when I'm not answering by saying yes or no but
13 provide explanations, but once again I'm in a situation where I have to
14 say something.
15 In Brcko, members of the reserve force were those who committed
16 crimes. Jelisic wore a police member's uniform. He was a policeman, a
17 reserve policeman. What happened? They came from Bijeljina to liberate
18 them, and they sent active duty policemen to the front line and people
19 from the outside came in such as Jelisic, Sasa, Pejo. They're all the
20 same types, one criminal next to another, and they took over the power.
21 So imagine Jelisic who gives him -- himself the right to mistreat people.
22 If people were standing in a line to get a passport he would take someone
23 out of the line, take out a gun and kill him. He's a member of the
24 police, reserve police and it was passed over in silence by police
25 officials and active duty policemen, by the military, by the leadership.
1 No one said a word. The members of the Crisis Staff thought that the
2 liberators had come, those who were the liberators believed that they
3 came to do whatever they liked and they did do that. So the whole
4 problem was that police mixed with such criminals. They were commanded
5 by Pejo, by one Sasa or some Legija and so on, and without right to
6 decide anything or do anything about that. This man would kill someone
7 in the street and he would remain a member of the forces legally without
8 anyone even asking him, How come you did that?
9 Q. Until they sent Andan to make an assessment, and on the basis of
10 assessment, they invited you?
11 A. Once an assessment was made and when the leadership of the Crisis
12 Staff realised what was happening then they asked me and begged me. I
13 was supposed to go to Zvornik first and they said, first go to Brcko,
14 please. We have finished this. It's a question of one day or the next
15 when we would all be killed. And if you allow me I will tell you another
16 detail which I deem to be interesting. While we were discussing with the
17 Crisis Staff in Brcko, on the premises of the MUP, and deputy Beli was
18 also there he was the president of the executive council of Markovic, I
19 think was his name and the garrison commander was there, the chief of the
20 SUP, and even the priest from Brcko was present. Seven or eight people
21 were there at the Crisis Staff. And while we were talking I noticed that
22 some vehicles, jeeps without roofs were circling around the MUP building.
23 People wearing hats on their heads, dangerous guys as one might call
24 them. The dogs of war, the criminals who managed to get weapons. They
25 were circling around the MUP and one of the people from my escort entered
1 and said, "Commander, it seems that we are encircled."
2 The leadership was frightened. It was a very complex situation.
3 We went outside and I told them, Don't be afraid. I went outside of the
4 building a minute or two later. Four, five vehicles arrived and some
5 young men came out, but the men I had with me were highly trained. They
6 were Specials. I need to explain that the Special is someone who was
7 trained at the police and had been trained for years to carry out special
8 tasks. They don't do patrols. They just do exercises. They do Judo,
9 shooting exercises, and so on. They can do anything that is requested.
10 I had 15 such mean with me, and quite understandably, I went outside.
11 When they approached me one of them asked me, "Who is the boss here?"
12 They would point me. I was standing next to a vehicle. They asked me
13 who I was and what I wanted to Brcko. I was armed as well. After a few
14 seconds, I would just give a sign to the police and in two minutes they
15 would have them all down on the ground. We would have a van, and we
16 would put 10 or 12 people inside, and we would quickly drive to Bijeljina
17 to get out of the encirclement. After 10 or 15 minutes, they would call
18 me by a radio from Brcko, "Mico Davidovic, do you hear us?"
19 I wouldn't answer and then Lieutenant-Colonel Milicevic - I
20 cannot remember his name - called me and said, "Please, Davidovic, can
21 you answer."
22 I could see it was serious. I would answer and then I would get
23 one of those who had remained in Brcko and he would say, "Unless you
24 release those you have arrested, we will kill a man every five minutes, a
25 deputy, a commander of the staff, and so on."
1 So how can I react otherwise than say feel free to kill them?
2 "You have no reason not to kill them but remember I will arrest you all.
3 I have you now. You cannot leave Brcko. I will have you." And then
4 they would say, "Well, we're not going to leave Brcko, only with our legs
5 forward, that is to say, dead."
6 So that was the end of that part. We would arrest them in the
7 morning, in the early hours at 2.30 a.m. we would enter Brcko just as we
8 did in Zvornik then we would release people from the hangar. We would go
9 and find the Red Berets who were quartered there. They were criminals,
10 they had truck trailers full of goods, they were about to depart, and
11 then once we had done all that, we would organise a meeting with the
12 Crisis Staff. After that, we would have a meeting with the police.
13 Usually the deputy minister or the minister himself, Mico, would arrive.
14 We briefed him about what we did and ten days later, or three or four
15 days, we would maintain the situation until the newly appointed commander
16 and everyone else began to work properly and the police station began to
17 function as it should have.
18 Q. Thank you for this vivid description. Just another question on
19 page 86 in Serbian and 108 in English about a conversation or, rather,
20 cross-examination. Branko Grujic asked you whether you knew that he
21 personally went to see Radovan Karadzic together with the chief of the
22 SUP to tell them that he couldn't live because of these people in Zvornik
23 any more. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. I can see what the time is. Unless the Trial Chamber allows me
1 some time tomorrow, I would like to thank you, Mr. Davidovic, and to
2 express my regret that I did not see you before the trial just in order
3 to specify some terminological imprecisions because I think a great deal
4 of the problems arise from precise formulations which are very important
5 for me as the Defence, whether it is the Crisis Staff or the staff of
6 Territorial Defence or the War Presidency and so on, and we have to
7 clarify what is rumour, and what is libel or slander, and what is
8 something that is really certain information. Thank you for doing what
9 you did when you helped in maintaining law and order there.
10 A. I wish to thank you. I'm sorry that in my capacity as a witness
11 I said what I have, but I really tried to say only the truth, which is
12 not pleasant at all. The truth is such as it is. From the very
13 beginning, I said everything as it was. I never imagined anything. I
14 just said what the situation was like, what I did, who I contacted with,
15 who I talked to. There is no need for me to distort anything, to say
16 anything that I don't know directly. I am a serious man. I have a
17 family. I wouldn't allow myself to do that, but, Mr. Karadzic, you tried
18 to communicate with me or rather your Defence team and, unfortunately,
19 you tried to do that through Cican Simic, the one who is mentioned in all
20 these orders, and no one from the Prosecutor's office or the Tribunal
21 knew that before. I didn't even know that I would be a witness here, nor
22 did anyone tell me that I would come to testify as a Prosecution witness
23 in your trial. And I must admit that I reflected earlier and I even told
24 that to the Prosecution when I testified the second time with
25 Mr. Stanisic, I said, please, don't invite me again. I am not a paid
1 witness. I have had some unpleasant situations because of that. Please
2 do not invite me, do not summon me. If I do not have to be a witness,
3 try to find a resolution so that I don't have to be a witness in the
4 Karadzic trial. However, I was requested to have a meeting without the
5 Prosecutor's office or ICTY knowing about that, and I refused any such
6 contact because I thought that was sidestepping legal organs and
7 institutions. I think it was even blackmail because of some proceedings
8 that were in progress, and I simply said I'm not going to talk with
9 anyone from your side. That was the main reason. Apart from that, when
10 I was a Prosecution witness in the Stanisic case, I talked to his Defence
11 and Mr. Stanisic, as far as I know, as far as I learned through his
12 Defence team, did not complain about my testimony. He said what he said
13 is true, and I cannot refute what is true. This is the reason why I was
14 slightly surprised about the way you tried to communicate with me,
15 sometimes angrily insulting me and questioning my integrity and my
16 family. But you have the right to defend yourself. I understood you.
17 It's not pleasant for you, it's not pleasant for us, but this is a job
18 that we all have to do; it's simply like that.
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Davidovic, I have to say something to you. We
20 talked to 80 per cent of the witnesses here and also this last question I
21 have for you, please. Do you have any proof of my brother Luka or my son
22 having a single commercial enterprise with Republika Srpska or knowing
23 Vojkan. Let us try to see specifically what is a rumour and what is not.
24 I am saying to you that my family was not involved in any kind of
25 business because I had prohibited that and none of them know Vojkan.
1 A. Believe me, I know this from Vojkan and from persons close to him
2 that through him he was establishing contact with you. I don't know how
3 true that is. He also mentioned Momo's brother there as well. He didn't
4 say I went directly to President Karadzic. He said through Luka, I took
5 care of all of that, and so and so forth. You know full well who
6 Vojkan Djurkovic is. I don't know whether this Court had the opportunity
7 of seeing him. He's a very dangerous type.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely negative, an absolutely
10 negative person. He is what he is.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. We tried to
12 conclude your evidence today, but evidently Madam Uertz-Retzlaff wants to
13 have some further re-examination tomorrow morning. So we rise today and
14 we'll begin tomorrow morning at 9.00.
15 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If Mr. Davidovic is coming back
17 tomorrow, can the Defence have a bit more time just to deal with one
18 particular topic, just to see what rumours are and what facts are, to
19 spell that out precisely?
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: You will have a quarter of an hour tomorrow morning,
22 but please bear in mind the Chamber is not interested in rumours.
23 Tomorrow morning, 9.00.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.04 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day
1 of July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.