Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17484

 1                           Friday, 19 August 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  The Chamber will give its

 6     ruling on certain pending matters.

 7             With respect to the accused's 56th motion for finding of

 8     disclosure violations and for sanctions, Witness KDZ-029, which was filed

 9     yesterday, 18th of August, 2011, the Chamber has considered the arguments

10     of the accused and the Prosecution's written response and finds that the

11     Prosecution violated its obligation under Rule 66(A)(ii) by failing to

12     disclose the proofing note of KDZ-029 before the 7 May 2009 dead-line.

13     However, the accused himself acknowledges that the "substance of the

14     proofing note is not earth-shattering" and does not suggest that he has

15     been prejudiced by this late disclosure.

16             Having reviewed the one-page proofing note and considering the

17     submissions of the parties, the Chamber finds that the accused will have

18     sufficient time to consider this newly disclosed document and incorporate

19     it if necessary in his cross-examination of KDZ-029.  Given the length

20     and content of the new material, the Chamber is not convinced that the

21     accused has been prejudiced by this late disclosure.  In these

22     circumstances, the requested exclusion of KDZ-029's testimony is denied.

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Page 17485

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Page 17486

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have filed a motion for

10     subpoena for Christoph von Bezold, and in an attempt to make contact with

11     him, we're told by the German authorities that they would not provide us

12     with his contact details but that any correspondence should go through

13     him -- through them and they would forward it to him.  So on the

14     23rd of June we wrote a letter to Mr. von Bezold and sent it to the

15     legal advisor here in The Hague for the German embassy, and we've heard

16     nothing since then.  Earlier this week I sent them another correspondence

17     asking them if they could give us a report on whether they had been able

18     to transmit that to Mr. von Bezold and whether they've had any response

19     from him.  So I'm hoping to hear from the German authorities in the next

20     few weeks and I'll advise the Chamber as soon as I do, and I think once

21     we've heard, then that matter will be ready for a decision.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.  Unless there are any

23     matters to be dealt with we'll bring in the witness.  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  First of all, just going back

25     for a moment to the issue of our correspondence with states, I just

Page 17487

 1     wanted to advise the Chamber that the Registry has taken the position

 2     that they won't serve any of our correspondence on the states, so that's

 3     why we make them filings.  And the Trial Chamber earlier -- the

 4     Pre-Trial Chamber had actually ruled that they would not compel the

 5     Registry to serve our correspondence on states.  As a result, when we

 6     initially tried to request documents from states, and I went around on my

 7     bicycle to the embassies and handed the letters there, we got no

 8     responses, so they treated it as junk mail.  So we find that whenever we

 9     correspond with the states through the Registry, we do get responses, and

10     when we drop our letters off by ourselves, we don't.  So if you don't

11     mind, we would like to find a way to continue to use the services of the

12     Registry so that our communication with the states can be more

13     productive.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Having heard that, we will look into the matter

15     again.  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  It's probably because you're going on a bicycle,

18     Mr. Robinson.  Maybe if you took a limousine, they might take it rather

19     more serious.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Maybe I'll apply to OLAD for the funds for the

21     limousine for that next time.

22             Also, Mr. President, yesterday we received a motion from the

23     Prosecution for -- notifying us that they had applied for a subpoena for

24     one of their witnesses, and I just wanted to advise the Chamber that we

25     won't be filing a response to that motion.

Page 17488

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let us bring in the witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had also kindly asked just to say

 3     one sentence.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, I would like to say that

 6     the ambitions of the Prosecution are not that small in respect of this

 7     witness.  His amalgamated statement contains 88 pages, and they go into

 8     evidence.  So the greatest masters of law are asking this simple man all

 9     sorts of questions, and he gives answers and all of this goes beyond his

10     role, his education, and his profile as such.

11             To put it bluntly, if this amalgamated statement is going to be

12     admitted into evidence, the Defence is asking for considerably more time.

13     If that will not be the case, Rule 92 ter will be seriously compromised.

14             You saw for yourselves that it's much better when we have

15     viva voce testimony.  It is much easier to see whether it is the witness

16     who is formulating his own thoughts or the Prosecution.  So I'm asking

17     for more time, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has carefully considered various

19     factors, including the scope of anticipated testimony and his

20     92 ter statements and concluded two and a half hours is sufficient for

21     your cross-examination.  There's no need to revisit the issue unless --

22     yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  I'm -- I think the Court has already made a ruling,

24     so I don't want to spend much time on this, but I think it's worth noting

25     that the amalgamated statement is comprised of examination in court.  So

Page 17489

 1     the submission is certainly unfounded to the extent it suggests

 2     otherwise.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Is the witness being brought in?

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           WITNESS:  KDZ-340 [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.  We apologise for the delay this

11     morning.  If you weren't advised, it didn't have anything to do with you,

12     but it related to procedural matters that weren't connected with your

13     testimony, so -- but those are completed and now we can begin.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, you --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, if we could go into private session

18     for the next series of questions.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

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Page 17490











11  Pages 17490-17496 redacted. Private session.















Page 17497

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15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Probably due to some time constraint yesterday you

17     forgot to read out the summary of this witness, but that should not have

18     any impact upon our hearing.

19             Are there any objection to the associate exhibits.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We would object to

21     65 ter number 0060 --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just give me a minute.  Yes.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  We're objecting to just one, 00604, the statement

24     of Svetislav Mitrovic, also known as Niski.  In this particular

25     circumstance -- first of all, besides it being the statement of a third

Page 17498

 1     person, which we believe is not admissible, if you look at the evidence

 2     at page 24 of the witness's amalgamated statement, the statement was only

 3     used in the Krajisnik case so that the witness could identify the name of

 4     Niski.  And so under those circumstances we don't believe that it's

 5     indispensable to the understanding of the previous testimony, and for

 6     those reasons we would ask that the Court not admit it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I think that falls within the ambit of the previous

 9     discussion, Your Honour, so I accept Mr. Robinson's position.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And with the exception of that exhibit,

11     i.e., 65 ter 604, and those that have already been admitted, all the

12     associated exhibits will be admitted into evidence and given numbers in

13     due course.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Witness.  You'll be asked by

16     Mr. Radovan Karadzic for his cross-examination.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   I would like to take the advantage of your giving testimony in

22     order to shed some light on the events that took place at the very

23     beginning.  You confirmed yesterday your earlier statements that on the

24     8th of April you took your family across the Drina to Serbia; is that

25     correct?

Page 17499

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Were you the only one who did that, or were other cases of the

 3     same nature?

 4        A.   Yes.  There were many people like that.  There were even my

 5     neighbours who were Muslims whom I transferred across.

 6        Q.   Am I right, then, to say that a situation emerged in which both

 7     the Muslims and the Serbs wanted at least their families, if not

 8     themselves, have transferred across to Serbia?

 9        A.   Yes.  We were all afraid of what the future would bring.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you heard this from Victim and Witness

11     Section.  Could you please put a pause before you start answering the

12     question, because both of you, Mr. Karadzic and you, are speak the same

13     language.  The interpreters have difficulty if you do not -- if you do

14     overlap.  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  I will

17     take care of that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  No, you don't have to apologise.  We do overlap.

19     Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what happened, and when did this situation

22     begin, the situation which prompted you and all other Serbs, many other

23     Serbs, and even some Muslims, to believe that it was necessary to take

24     your families out of Zvornik to the right-hand side bank of the Drina

25     into Serbia?

Page 17500

 1        A.   Well, there was mutual mistrust setting in in town.  The Serbs

 2     didn't believe the Muslims and vice versa.  A corporal was killed in

 3     Sapna some 15 days ago [as interpreted], I think, before the conflict

 4     broke out.  Nearly no Serbs came to work at the police station in fear of

 5     their lives.  For that reason, the Serbian police station was set up in

 6     Karakaj and the Muslim remained behind.

 7             The Muslims were arming their fellow citizens instead of giving

 8     any weapons to the Serbs.  So before any hostilities broke out and before

 9     we heard about this killing, there were already Muslims under arms a

10     couple of days before the conflict.  In Bijeljina they were already in

11     street fully armed, and at that time they were already patrolling the

12     streets.  I was also patrolling the streets, but I was not armed.  So

13     they were controlling Zvornik until the night of 8th of April, five or

14     six days before the conflict, and after that, the Serbs took over the

15     control of Zvornik in spite of the fact that some Muslims remained in

16     Zvornik.

17             Since a soldier was killed in Zvornik near the department store,

18     and he was fired at from Kula, I suppose, an action was launched to seize

19     Kula because it dominates over Zvornik and there's forest there.  So that

20     was a very convenient place for them to hide.

21             This is how I understood the situation in Zvornik at the time.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now to simplify things a little.  You were saying

23     that there were many Muslims on the streets under arms.  Were those

24     long-barrelled arms?

25        A.   Yes.  I even saw a submachine-gun carried by one man.  That was

Page 17501

 1     the first time I saw such a weapon.  Although I was working in the

 2     technical department, I had never seen it before.

 3        Q.   Were those regular police forces that one could have trusted, or

 4     were those some different citizens?  Were some people among them who were

 5     unreliable or even criminals?  And I'm talking about people patrolling

 6     the street.

 7        A.   I did not go downtown at the time, but I did hear that there were

 8     criminals with long-barrelled firearms.  As for the rest, they were all

 9     members of the Zvornik TO.  An appeal was broadcast on the Radio Zvornik

10     inviting the citizens to defend the town.  However, the radio station was

11     controlled by the Muslim officials.  And my neighbours were already in my

12     neighbourhood, or people from thereabout.

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, how come that ordinary people and even criminals had

14     so many weapons?

15        A.   Well, most probably in compliance with our All People's Defence

16     system there was -- there were arms in depots for the army and the

17     reserve police, and they probably -- these weapons intended for reserve

18     police were distributed to Muslims.  And the TO warehouse, which belonged

19     to the army and was intended for defence, was situated in Zvornik.  And

20     before the conflict, that was where the Zvornik TO depot was located.

21        Q.   Yesterday, you mentioned that the Muslims took all the weapons

22     from the depot that belonged to the police, that the Serbian policemen

23     relocated to Karakaj, to the Serbian part of Zvornik.  Does that mean

24     that the Muslims had MUP weapons in their hands and only later the Serbs

25     managed to take control of the TO depot?

Page 17502

 1        A.   Yeah, one might say that.  It was possible for people to obtain

 2     weapons in Mali Zvornik.  Those were our weapons from Zvornik, as well as

 3     the uniforms, ammunition, and everything else.  Well, how this was

 4     transferred over there I don't know, because I reported only on the

 5     13th of April.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In addition to --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I'm sure the witness is -- is

 9     trying to comply with the Court's encouragement to pause, but it's, of

10     course, difficult to know.  I noted that the Court sometimes suggest to

11     witnesses to watch the cursor and see when that ends and that's -- that's

12     a helpful way of knowing when the translation has been completed.  You

13     may want to mention that to the witness as a technique for identifying

14     when the translation has concluded.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could you take that into account, sir.

16             Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Apart from the weapons that belonged to the MUP or the reserve

20     police, were there any other weapons?  Did the parties involved procure

21     weapons?  Did the Muslims receive weapons from some quarters and did the

22     Serbs later also receive weapons, or was it taken from these regular

23     depots that under the law were controlled by the municipality?

24        A.   That is most probably the case, but I cannot confirm how either

25     of the side procured their weapons.  Probably they did it in the way you

Page 17503

 1     described.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can one say that in the Muslim part of Zvornik,

 3     excluding Karakaj, from the 4th or the 5th of April until the

 4     9th of April, only a handful of Serbs remained and that nearly all of

 5     them had left either to Karakaj or to Serbia?  Can you please wait with

 6     your answer.

 7        A.   That is correct.  Many Serbs left Zvornik, particularly those who

 8     were living in apartment blocks.  Only a few of them remained.  Even in

 9     my neighbourhood there were many Serb families, and in this period after

10     the 9th of April, only five or six of us remained there on the street

11     where I lived.  People who lived in the centre of town in apartment

12     blocks, once they saw who was patrolling the town, they immediately left.

13     On the afternoon of the 8th of April, a bus was put to block the bridge

14     which prevented anyone leaving Zvornik by car.  When I wanted to return

15     to Zvornik, I had to go through Karakaj and then through the Scemlija

16     village.  I had to take this village road in order to reach my house

17     where my mother and father and brother were, and I wanted to take them

18     away.

19        Q.   Who blocked the bridge by putting the bus there?

20        A.   It was the Muslims.  At Vidakova Njiva, which is the exit point

21     towards Karakaj, they also erected a roadblock on the 6th or

22     7th of April.

23        Q.   Thank you.  It seems to me -- but just one more question.  Did

24     anyone persuade the Serbs to leave, or did they reach their own

25     conclusions and were they afraid when they saw who was patrolling the

Page 17504

 1     streets under arms?

 2        A.   I was afraid for the security of my family.  That's why I took

 3     them away.  But I myself returned to Zvornik.  Generally speaking,

 4     everybody was afraid of something.

 5        Q.   Sometimes you say you returned on the 13th, and in another

 6     testimony of yours, on the first page of -- second page of your

 7     amalgamated statement you say that you returned on the same day, the 8th.

 8     It is not exactly important, but can you tell us if you returned on the

 9     8th and reported for mobilisation, or did you return on the 13th?

10        A.   I returned on the 8th of April.  During the fight for Zvornik, I

11     was in my home.  I went to Scemlija.  My mother, myself, my two Serbian

12     neighbours, and two Muslim neighbours went there.  I remained there until

13     the afternoon.  My mother and my brother and the Muslims left earlier.  I

14     remained in Scemlija.  I exited the town via Tomanici Escilja [phoen].

15     After that I went back to Serbia once again on the 9th of April, and then

16     I came back on the 13th and reported at the Crisis Staff.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

18     be asked to slow down a bit.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  In addition to putting a pause between question and

20     answer, could you kindly slow down as well when you speak.  Very kind,

21     thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  So we have clarified this.  It is correct that you

25     returned on the same day and that you returned on the 13th.

Page 17505

 1             Do you remember that on the 4th of April the Rump Presidency of

 2     BH made up of Muslim and Croat members declared general mobilisation, and

 3     apart from the killing of the JNA column and mobilisation itself,

 4     contributed to the emergence of such a huge number of unauthorised people

 5     bearing long-barrelled arms and weapons on the streets of Zvornik?

 6        A.   All of that contributed to this, even the killing of the wedding

 7     party in Sarajevo.  This undermined the trust of citizens, not only in

 8     Zvornik but in other places as well, because at that time we were all

 9     watching the news and trying to get as much information as possible.  We

10     don't know how correct and accurate they were, but we were all very much

11     involved regardless of our ethnicity in following what was going on.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you notice then that a slaughter took place in

13     Sijekovac on the 26th of March?

14        A.   I cannot confirm that.

15        Q.   Was that covered by the media?

16        A.   Yeah, possibly, but I myself cannot confirm that.  I'm not

17     100 per cent sure that I heard of it.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you were aware that there was a crisis

19     in Bijeljina.  Did that have an impact on the fear instilled in the Serbs

20     in Zvornik?

21        A.   In my opinion, that was not the only factor that caused fear

22     among the Serbs.  They went out in Bijeljina walking around the town

23     bearing weapons, and that was a very strong psychological effect.  We

24     were just concerned about the possibility of trying to avoid any

25     conflict.  Although we Serbs had some weapons, we decided not even to

Page 17506

 1     display any handguns in order to avoid being blamed for the conflict,

 2     because when you have two sides who are armed, there will always be

 3     somebody who is foolish enough to pull out his weapon and fire, because

 4     the atmosphere was such.  There was something in the air indicating that

 5     a conflict was going to erupt.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And then you reported to the Crisis Staff in response

 7     to mobilisation.  Was that also in accordance with the Law on

 8     All People's Defence, that is to say, that it was the municipality that

 9     was in charge of defence, and in some of your statements you said just

10     like the president of the state is the Commander-in-Chief, likewise the

11     president of municipality is the Commander-in-Chief with respect to the

12     defence of a municipality; right?

13        A.   We had an All People's Defence system before the war, so all

14     members of a certain age, after they finished their compulsory military

15     service were members of the TO or the reserve police.  So that applied to

16     the civilians who were also mobilised.

17             I automatically was a member of the TO, and subsequently I became

18     a member of the armed forces.  Of course, one had to know who was in

19     charge.  All these operations were administered and run by the president

20     of the municipality, although we had staff commanders, but he was in

21     charge of the civilian side of that.  I presume that they were constantly

22     discussing and agreeing how to proceed.

23        Q.   So the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik issued

24     this call, and that is what you said in pages 2 and 3 of your amalgamated

25     statement.  You said that everybody, regardless of their ethnicity, was

Page 17507

 1     called up, and you said that at that time, Serbs remained living in the

 2     Serbian part of Zvornik, as well as some Muslims, that they responded as

 3     well, and that you set up joint patrols; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  We were all there, the Serbs and the Muslims alike.  Zuca

 5     told me, "Let Serbs patrol also, and this will improve our chances of

 6     maintaining the law and order."

 7        Q.   Thank you.  He said something -- actually, Stevo Radic said

 8     something similar.  He said, "It is not important if a person is a

 9     Muslim.  He is a citizen of the town, and let him patrol, because that's

10     his place of residence."

11        A.   I didn't have many contacts with Stevo Radic in that period.  I

12     just applied for a pass for going to Serbia and for movement around town.

13     Most frequently, because Stevo Radic was busy, I contacted Zuco, but

14     Stevo Radic did tell me that he agrees for both the Muslims and the Serbs

15     to patrol together.

16        Q.   I'm looking at what you say at the top of page 5 of your

17     amalgamated statement, which corroborates what you just said.  This has

18     been attributed to Radic, but you say that Zuca maintained a similar

19     position.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And then there's a reference here to a Muslim on page 5.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I kindly ask Mr. Tieger for his

23     assistance.  Do we need to go into private session since it has to do

24     with a personal relationship?

25             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I think Dr. Karadzic thoughtfully raises a

Page 17508

 1     good point, but the answer is no.  Two things:  As I indicated to

 2     Mr. Robinson yesterday, we attempted to indicate as clearly as possible

 3     whether a matter previously was addressed in open or private session, and

 4     one can see that under the page references.  So that's a helpful way of

 5     indicating that.  I appreciate that there may be circumstances which give

 6     rise to confidentiality concerns otherwise, but I don't think this is

 7     one.  I think it was raised in that manner before.

 8             And by way of clarification about something the accused said

 9     earlier, I think that the reference at the top of page 5 was not

10     attributed to Radic but was attributed in -- if one looks at the

11     beginning of that passage at the bottom of page 4 and continuing on to

12     page 5, it's clearly a reference consistent with what the witness said in

13     court.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I also prefer to remain

16     in open session.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So you did have an opportunity of seeing that the late

19     Sejfudin Hadziefendic was brought in, and in passing you were asked

20     whether you knew him, and you said when you identified him in the car,

21     you said that you knew him and that he was a good man and that he should

22     be released and that they should apologise to him; right?

23        A.   First of all, Sejfudin is not Hadziefendic, he is Hadziavdic.  I

24     said that because I had knowledge from 1991, as far as back as that, and

25     we knew each other for many years before that.  When there was this

Page 17509

 1     conflict this Croatia, because we all knew that humanitarian aid was

 2     being sent to Croatia, it wasn't being sent to Serbs, it was sent to

 3     Croats in Croatia, he asked me then how he could provide humanitarian aid

 4     to the Krajina, and I said through the Red Cross from Serbia.  And he did

 5     what I said.  He said, "(redacted) that is what I did."

 6             And knowing all of that, that he is a hard working and honest

 7     man, when I saw who it was, that is why I said what I said, that he's an

 8     honest and that he is a fair man.  I did not say that he sent aid to

 9     Serbs in Croatia I just said that he was an exceptionally fair and honest

10     man and that they should release him and that nobody should touch him and

11     that they should apologise to him.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Can we go into private session briefly.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17510

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So these were very dramatic times, right?  You were not some

18     office-holder in the government.  Basically you were an ordinary citizen.

19     They asked you about that man.  Is it correct that they released him and

20     that they apologised to him?

21        A.   It is correct that they released him and apologised to him.

22     After these clashes, when he came to see me he told me about that.  We

23     did not discuss it at length.  He just said, "It's all right that they

24     listened to what you said.  They took me back, and they apologised for

25     having done what they did."

Page 17511

 1        Q.   Thank you.  If I had the amount of time that I had asked for,

 2     every answer of yours would have been precious to me, no matter how

 3     extensive.  However, in view of how short our time is, let us try to keep

 4     your answers as short as possible whenever possible.

 5             Does that mean that the persons who brought him in cared about

 6     whether he actually did something or not and whether he was an honest

 7     man?

 8        A.   I think there are two questions there, whether he had done

 9     something and whether he was an honest man.  My answer yes, he's an

10     honest man.

11        Q.   And those who detained him, was that important for them to

12     realise whether he was an honest man or whether he had done something

13     wrong?

14        A.   Most probably, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  On page 7 now of your amalgamated statement --

16     actually, I'd like us to make a distinction.  Do you agree that in our

17     system, before the Army of Republika Srpska was established, there was a

18     municipal brigade of the Territorial Defence?

19        A.   There was not a municipal brigade of the Territorial Defence.

20     There was a detachment of the TO.  As for the establishment of this

21     brigade and the municipality and the Army of Republika Srpska, that is

22     when the brigade was formed and then the detachment no longer existed.

23     The detachment could also have several battalions like the brigade did,

24     so it's similar but the formulation is different.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the Army of Republika Srpska came

Page 17512

 1     into being on the 20th of May, after the withdrawal of the JNA?

 2        A.   I agree with that, yes.

 3        Q.   So up until the 20th of May, there was a detachment of the

 4     Territorial Defence that was under civilian control of the Crisis Staff

 5     and under the command of the commander of the TO of the municipality;

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes.  The commander of the staff of the TO.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  After having reported from the 13th of April until

 9     the 3rd or 4th of May, you were given a task by the Crisis Staff to

10     patrol the streets, and you did that with one or two Muslims who had also

11     been given that assignment by the Territorial Defence; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On the 4th of May, you were told that you should

14     report to the commander of the Territorial Defence, and you waited for

15     them all day because they were somewhere at the front line facing Sapna

16     and Nezuk.  Were they attacking Sapna and Nezuk, or were the Muslims from

17     Sapna and Nezuk attacking the Serb part of Zvornik?

18        A.   I don't know exactly whether they were attacking, but they were

19     in Sapna and Nezuk.  In the evening, sometime on the 4th or 5th,

20     Aco Sekanic saw me, and I then reported on the morning of the 6th to the

21     Crisis Staff, to the TO staff, in order to get a particular assignment.

22     So that was St. George's Day.  And they went to Nezuk.  Now, why?  For

23     which reason?  I really cannot say because I was not in contact with

24     them, so I had no way of knowing.  About these details, that is.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Who had Sapna and Nezuk under their control?  You say

Page 17513

 1     "they."  Were Sapna and Nezuk in Muslim-held territory?

 2        A.   Sapna and Nezuk were under Muslim control, like Zaselak [phoen]

 3     and a few other villages in the area.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  On page 8, we see what kind of work you were

 5     assigned, and that was in line with your VES, that is to say, your

 6     military speciality that you were assigned while serving in the JNA,

 7     while doing your military service, compulsory military service; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Then the Army of Republika Srpska was established on the

10     20th of May, and then sometime in the beginning of June, the

11     Zvornik Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska was established; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   For a short period of time the commander of that brigade was

15     Mr. Blagojevic; right?  And then -- and then he was replaced -- actually,

16     can you help us with that?  Who replaced Blagojevic?

17        A.   Slobodan Vasilic, Bobe.

18        Q.   Ah-ha.  Thank you.  That has nothing to do with the Vasilic who

19     was in the MUP; right?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Vasilic not Vasovic.  But, all right, that can be corrected in

22     the transcript.

23             Now I'd like us to specify something.  The municipality kept the

24     infrastructure of the Territorial Defence, which is owned by the

25     municipality anyway; right?

Page 17514

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   There was still a commander of the Territorial Defence, and there

 3     was -- there were still depots of the Territorial Defence, and in a way

 4     they were supposed to be under the supervision of the army, but basically

 5     they are a municipal institution; right?

 6        A.   The depot of the Territorial Defence that was in Mali Zvornik was

 7     not functioning until the 19th of May because all the materiel and

 8     technical resources that were there were transferred to Zvornik.

 9        Q.   To familiarise the Trial Chamber with this, while there was still

10     a single state, Mali Zvornik was on the right bank of the river and is in

11     Serbia, and Zvornik, which is on the other side of the river in Bosnia,

12     it was one and the same thing while there was a single state; right?

13        A.   Yes.  And it was only the Drina River that was between them.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean the Serb municipality of Zvornik

15     because it remained without any infrastructure of the MUP and without the

16     weapons of the MUP and without the weapons of the Territorial Defence of

17     companies and enterprises that are in the urban area, does that mean that

18     they took over their municipal property from Mali Zvornik and transferred

19     it to the Bosnian part of Zvornik, to Zvornik as such, and that they

20     established a depot there and the infrastructure of the Territorial

21     Defence; right?

22             MR. TIEGER:  That seems an enormously complicated question that

23     also builds in some facts not in evidence, so I think it needs to be

24     deconstructed and commenced again.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could you break down the questions.

Page 17515

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that we had established

 2     that, that the entire infrastructure and the weaponry of the MUP had

 3     remained in Muslim hands; whereas the infrastructure of the Territorial

 4     Defence remained in Mali Zvornik and that the Serbs took it over and

 5     returned it to the Serb municipality of Zvornik.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Ask questions.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  And I would also emphasise that that relates

 8     to particular periods of time.  I understand that Mr. Dr. Karadzic is now

 9     in May.  I think the previous answer referred to sometime in early April,

10     and I think in order to have any clarity at all, those matters need to be

11     raised discretely and clearly.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In a word, the Serb municipality of Zvornik, did it transfer the

15     weaponry and depot of the Territorial Defence across the river and

16     establish their own depot?

17        A.   Yes.  That's April.  And then up until the 19th of May, it was

18     only natural that people went to their own warehouse and that's in

19     Serbia, but then that turned out to be a different state.  At the time I

20     was involved in the transportation of this equipment from Serbia to our

21     depots that were in Standard and even in the atomic shelter of the Birac

22     factory, because we had three hangars there where our equipment was, and

23     we could not find enough room for all of that in Standard.

24        Q.   Am I right if I say that in the Serb part of Zvornik, or, rather,

25     the Serb municipality of Zvornik, Karakaj, Alhos, Standard, and Glinica,

Page 17516

 1     all of them are there in this area that was always populated by Serbs.

 2     Had there not been a war, it would have been the Serb municipality of

 3     Zvornik.

 4        A.   Yes, because the population there was 99.99 per cent Serb.  But

 5     the Glinica Alumina factory had their own weapons and other weapons had

 6     their own weapons, but all of that was within the system of All People's

 7     Defence in the depots in Mali Zvornik.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On page 11 of your amalgamated statement you say that

 9     some people, that is to say, this Pavlovic, he actually had a different

10     name and you found out about that much later.  Can one say that sometimes

11     people did falsely represent themselves either in terms of their name or

12     the office they held or the importance they had?  Were there situations

13     where people would come and introduce themselves in a certain way but

14     that way would turn out to be false or exaggerated?

15        A.   I'm sorry, but I did not really understand your question.

16        Q.   Was it only this Pavlovic who used a false name when introducing

17     himself, or were there other people who introduced themselves by using

18     certain nicknames or were they using their own names but inventing

19     offices and positions they held?

20        A.   Pavlovic falsely represented himself at the time, because later I

21     found out that his name was Branislav Popovic.  Other persons just

22     introduced themselves by their nicknames.  They did not give their first

23     and last names.  So quite a few people were known by their nicknames.  As

24     for the particular offices that they held -- how do I put this?  It was

25     either in the municipality or in the brigade.  They decided who would

Page 17517

 1     hold which position and where.  As far as I can understand your question,

 2     that is.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, we'll have break

 5     now for 20 minutes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you remember that the republican organs had not declared a

13     state of war ever on the level of the whole republic and only seldom they

14     did it partially?

15        A.   Yes.  I remember that it wasn't declared.  The only thing that

16     was declared was an imminent threat of war.

17        Q.   Do you recall that under such conditions civilian structures

18     exist, including the Territorial Defence, and that it was the civilian

19     authorities who were in charge of the territory and the army was in

20     charge of the front line?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you remember how long the process of constituting and

23     equipping the 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade last?  Was it up until

24     sometime in mid-June?

25        A.   The forming of the brigade started towards the end of May, and

Page 17518

 1     they gave their solemn oath on the St. Vitus Day, on the 28th of June.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can I just now establish a clear distinction between

 3     the situation that prevailed until the 28th of June and the one after

 4     that.  Is it true that volunteers reported to the municipal authorities,

 5     whether you wish to call them a Crisis Staff, the Presidency of the

 6     municipality or interim government?  Did they report it in keeping with

 7     the law and the decision of the SFRY Presidency stipulating that

 8     volunteers were a legitimate and regular force?

 9        A.   I didn't quite understand your question relating to the

10     volunteers.

11        Q.   In a nutshell, was it regulated by law and was it legal for

12     volunteers to report?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Were local people subject to military obligation, whereas those

15     who were not subject to that obligation, that they came from other

16     countries such as Serbia, Montenegro, et cetera?

17        A.   We who were locals had an obligation to defend ourselves and to

18     be part of those units.  As for them, I don't know exactly to whom they

19     reported once they arrived.  However, later on they were all assigned to

20     the brigade units.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let us establish that they came, they were assigned

22     to TO brigades, and when they formed their separate units, such as

23     Pivarski, Niski, Yellow Wasps, et cetera, it turned out that there were

24     many local conscripts in those units?

25        A.   Yes, they were members of battalion.  More than 80 per cent of

Page 17519

 1     local residents were in Zuco's voluntary units, in Zuco's units.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can one say, and that can be inferred from many

 3     statement of yours, that the majority of the volunteers, both those who

 4     came from elsewhere and the local ones, that they were all patriots, that

 5     they were good people and well behaved on the line?

 6        A.   Yes.  The majority of them were well behaved.  However, there

 7     were isolated incidents and misbehaviour.  Nobody can deny that, but that

 8     was happening everywhere.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at page 13 of your statement.  You were

10     asked in open session in another case about who issued tasks, and it was

11     established that after St. Vitus Day, the 28th of June, when the brigade

12     became official and legitimate, it was possible for Marko Pavlovic as

13     well to give orders to the Territorial Defence, whereas the commander of

14     the brigade issued orders to his troops.

15        A.   Yes.  But I don't know what kind of co-operation existed between

16     Marko Pavlovic and the brigade commander.  I don't know what kind of

17     meetings they had, but it is true that both of them issued assignments

18     and gave assignments to the conscripts.

19        Q.   You mentioned that you were a reserve officer.  Did you have any

20     rank?

21        A.   Yes.  I was a non-commissioned officer, more specifically a

22     corporal.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I'm now on page 13.  Tell me, does this look to you as some kind

Page 17520

 1     of state of dual authority, because both were entitled to issue orders?

 2        A.   Well, one can say that because within the defence system, if you

 3     have a regular unit, such as brigade, it's up to them to issue.  However,

 4     what they're going to agree mutually between themselves, what was

 5     important for the responsibility of the brigade, I cannot go into those

 6     details.  The situation was such that the military conscripts should

 7     receive orders only by the brigade commander regarding their activities.

 8     That is what I think, at least, because by the very fact of the brigade

 9     being formed, all of us who had been before that in Territorial Defence

10     Staff were transferred to this unit, both the reserve officers and

11     active-duty officers, and we were supposed to receive orders directly

12     from the brigade.

13        Q.   Thank you.  But that didn't happen immediately; right?

14        A.   Yes.  With the establishment of detachment, this was still not a

15     practice.  This happened maybe after I left detention.  While I was in

16     detention that was the situation, but after that Marko Pavlovic actually

17     left Zvornik.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You have confirmed that Marko Pavlovic, and that's on

19     page 13, that Marko Pavlovic had some kind of certificate testifying that

20     he was a member of the VRS.  Did he need such a certificate in order to

21     pass through the army check-points, because army did not recognise this

22     dual status?

23        A.   This certificate was issued to him when he left Zvornik on the

24     28th of August in order for him to be able to regulate his status outside

25     the territory of Republika Srpska.  That's what I think, because before

Page 17521

 1     that, he himself could have signed such a certificate, and he was

 2     authorised to issue documents of that nature.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You spoke about the fact that everyone who appeared

 4     on the lines would receive orders from the regional commander of the

 5     brigade in its area of responsibility.  It is true that although there

 6     was no war, whoever appeared on the line, be it the police, the

 7     volunteers, the Territorial Defence, had to be resubordinated to the

 8     local brigade commander in his area of responsibility.  Was that a

 9     customary practice?

10        A.   That's how it should be.  But it wasn't the case on many

11     occasion, because the civilian authorities had their command, and the

12     police, for example, ignored the orders coming from the brigade commander

13     because they had a different structure.  Perhaps the reason for that was

14     that only an imminent state of war was declared rather than a state of

15     war.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Imminent threat of

17     war.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So from your answer on page 16, where you say that you were not

20     quite sure who was issuing assignments, do you agree that after the

21     brigade was formed, that is to say, from early July onwards, there was a

22     certain confusion in terms of the authority and who was commanding whom

23     and who was under whom?

24        A.   Yes.  I think that many people were confused.

25        Q.   On page 17 you speak about the manner in which equipment and

Page 17522

 1     materiel were issued from the Territorial Defence depot.  What was

 2     required was for someone to write a requisition order or something like

 3     that.  Somebody has to approve it, and then the required equipment is

 4     issued in compliance with what was approved, not what was requisitioned.

 5             Now, this whole procedure, was that something that was inherited

 6     from the previous system, or was it something new?

 7        A.   That was something inherited from the previous system, because

 8     the practice was, first of all, to have an order about operations, and

 9     after that, ammunition would be requisitioned from the depot, but it was

10     issued according to the approval.  It was well known how many kits were

11     required for how many soldiers.  If somebody asked for 10.000 rounds of

12     ammunition, they couldn't receive only 5, because what had to be taken

13     into account was the imminent operation.

14        Q.   If those who were deployed on the front line were responsible and

15     answerable to the brigade commander, who were all these groups

16     accountable during the periods when they were not on the front line but

17     in town?

18        A.   I cannot tell you to whom they were accountable.

19        Q.   On page 17 you mention Pivarski.  Did Pivarski hail from that

20     area?

21        A.   Pivarski is from Croatia.  He was born somewhere in the vicinity

22     of Vukovar or Borovo Selo.  I don't know exactly.  All I know is that he

23     was from Croatia.

24        Q.   Was the majority of his fighters also from that local area or did

25     they come from some place else?

Page 17523

 1        A.   A number of volunteers came from outside, but I don't know where

 2     from.  However, 70 to 80 per cent of all these units, Niski, Pivarski,

 3     Zuco, accounted or were made up of our local fighters.

 4        Q.   Do you agree that up until the 1st of July, the Territorial

 5     Defence and then the brigade, after the 1st of July, could have raised

 6     objections to the fact that local people were members of the formations

 7     that were being treated as volunteer units and later on as paramilitary?

 8     Was there any criticism with respect to local people being there?

 9        A.   As far as I know, there were no objections, because we from the

10     command assigned people to that unit.  Whether that was done by the TO

11     staff or the brigade, that was how it worked.

12        Q.   You are talking about the time of the Territorial Defence?

13        A.   Yes, but also about the time when the brigade was formed.  So

14     military conscripts, local conscripts, were assigned to those very units.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You also mentioned that these units got some names,

16     and most often they liked to call themselves special units.  Was there an

17     authorised organ that gave them that name, special units, or did they

18     call themselves that?

19        A.   I cannot say who gave them these attributes.

20        Q.   However, you haven't seen a single document on the basis of which

21     a unit was proclaimed a special unit or something like that?

22        A.   No, I haven't seen anything like that.  Because, actually, I

23     didn't have any documents that were accessible to me in view of the

24     position that I held.

25        Q.   Thank you.  As a reserve junior officer or non-commissioned

Page 17524

 1     officer or junior sergeant, as you had put it, in peacetime after you did

 2     your military service, were you called up for military exercises?

 3        A.   Yes.  One month after demobilisation I was called up.

 4        Q.   Were you employed somewhere at the time?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How many times did you spend on these drills or military

 7     exercises?

 8        A.   At that time, seven or ten days.

 9        Q.   During those seven or ten days, were you provided with a salary

10     by your company or by the military department, or did the military

11     department reimburse your company?

12        A.   In 1996, when I attended this military exercise, nobody refunded

13     my salary, because beforehand it was the Ministry of Defence that carried

14     out these obligations until 1991 in the case of such military exercises.

15     Afterwards, no one could afford that, but I did file an application,

16     though.

17        Q.   Thank you for this clarification.  I was actually referring to

18     the period before this war.  Once you did your military service, your

19     compulsory military service, you were given this rank and then you were

20     called up for military exercises; right?

21        A.   Yes.  And in that period I was given a salary in view of the rank

22     that I held and also my salary was reimbursed and I was given per diems.

23     That was before the war.

24        Q.   All right.  That was the system.  Either the company would pay

25     out your salary and it would be reimbursed by the ministry, or the

Page 17525

 1     ministry would pay it directly to you if you were not employed; right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   The municipal Territorial Defence, the system of Territorial

 4     Defence, did it inherit the very same system?  Namely, if persons are not

 5     employed, then they pay them directly, whereas if they are employed, they

 6     are paid by their salary.  So this is not taken out of their own

 7     salaries.

 8        A.   Yes.  That's the way it was during the war too.

 9        Q.   Let us not try to find the documents now.  Did you know that

10     there were payrolls for persons who were not employed anywhere and who

11     were engaged by the Territorial Defence and then the municipality paid

12     them; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is that how you received your salary?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Until when and from whom?

17        A.   The payroll was provided to the brigade.  I was in the brigade at

18     the time.  While I was in the brigade, that is when I received a salary.

19     And I received a salary for the month of June, because that's when I was

20     placed on this list, and I received a salary for the month of June.  In

21     the beginning of July, I was transferred to Zuco's unit, and I did not

22     receive a salary for the month of July.

23        Q.   Did I understand you correctly that after that first place that

24     you were dismissed from, you received a salary for that from the

25     Territorial Defence; right?

Page 17526

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, if necessary, can we just

 2     briefly move into private session, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17527

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17528

 1        Q.   So volunteers from the Territorial Defence were receiving

 2     salaries from the municipality -- or, rather, the Territorial Defence,

 3     although 70 or 80 per cent of them were locals; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned several times, and you confirmed here

 6     that most of these volunteers were fair, proper, good fighters, patriots.

 7     Is that a reason why many arrested persons were released very soon after

 8     their arrest?

 9        A.   I did not say that many volunteers were fair and honest.  I said

10     that a large number of the fighters who were in the units.  That did not

11     only refer to volunteers but it referred to locals as well.  I said that

12     they were fair, that they were honest, and that in all units and among

13     people in general, there are all kinds.

14             As for this second question, why some people were released

15     earlier and we were released later, in my opinion and in the opinion of

16     most of us who remained in detention, and that's most probably the case

17     anyway, we were kept because of Pale and because of the check-point.

18     That is the reason why we were kept there, because all the others were

19     released after seven or eight days, many volunteers, many locals as well.

20     It's not only that volunteers were kept.  Seven or eight of us were kept

21     in detention.

22        Q.   Thank you.  What about the rest?  They were deployed to other

23     units, and these existing units ceased to exist actually; right?

24        A.   Other volunteers from the groups of Niski and Pivarski were

25     deployed in other units; whereas volunteers from Zuco's group, that is to

Page 17529

 1     say, persons who were not from that area, they were transferred to

 2     Mitrovica.  They did not stay in our region.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that a list was compiled of 41 or

 4     43 persons who were banned from Republika Srpska after that?  Did that

 5     relate to those individuals, those who were transferred to Mitrovica?

 6        A.   I wouldn't know about this list.  That was not accessible to me

 7     anyway.  However, afterwards, as for one of these persons who was

 8     detained with me, I saw him in Republika Srpska again.  He was not in our

 9     region.  I saw him at a different front line.

10        Q.   On page 22, I'd like to deal with the question of what you were

11     suspected of.  Was it assistance, contacts, collaboration with the

12     Muslims?

13             Am I correct that in terms of contact with Muslims and helping

14     Muslims, no one would have held it against you, but they would hold it

15     against you if it were collaboration, because that would have meant

16     contact with the Muslim armed forces; right?  That's not what you did;

17     right?

18        A.   No, no, not that.  We did not do that.  We did help whenever we

19     could save someone.  There were foolish people who didn't do that.  There

20     were people like that among us, like anywhere else, but we proceeded from

21     the following:  Do not do unto others what you would not want done to

22     yourself.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In view of the fact that some crimes were committed

24     anyway -- I actually had to find the reference here, but you can confirm

25     it anyway.  Is it correct that some persons committed crimes in Zvornik?

Page 17530

 1        A.   I don't know whether we're in open session now, because I'd have

 2     to mention something.  So --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.  We'll go back -- we'll go

 4     into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17531











11  Pages 17531-17535 redacted. Private session.















Page 17536

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  We're in open session.

Page 17537

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, if I could have a page reference quickly,

 9     please.  I know approximately where it is, but it would be helpful to

10     locate it immediately.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a little patience.  I'll do it

13     immediately.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I've got it now.  And the reason I asked for it is I

15     thought that was in private session previously.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Page number?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Page 36.  And I think we therefore need to be in

18     private session again, and therefore we need a redaction for the previous

19     portions of the questioning.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We go back to private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17538











11  Page 17538 redacted. Private session.















Page 17539

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Since that was the

 5     answer I gave, I'm afraid that it might happen that my name be mentioned

 6     and that somebody would establish the connection, because I would have to

 7     say what I was doing specifically, and that would be probably sufficient.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can put general questions, and

 9     after that we can move to private session.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   So there were check-points established.  Can you tell us whether

13     that was the case from April until mid-July?  What kind of check-points

14     were established, and what was controlled?

15        A.   There was one at Crni Vrh, which was manned by the military

16     police and army in general in order to secure safe passage of the

17     vehicles going to Sekovici and Pale or to Serbia, and there was another

18     check-point in Zvornik, in Karakaj.  But there were also points in

19     Bijeljina, because they also checked whether conscripts were passing

20     through, avoiding to join their units.  So everything was under control.

21        Q.   So the army was controlling what was in their domain, that is to

22     say, the transportation of equipment, ammunition, materiel, and the

23     passage of deserters; is that correct?  Whereas the civilian police was

24     in charge of controlling the regularity of cargo, vehicles, supporting

25     documents and things of that nature; is that correct?

Page 17540

 1        A.   In my opinion and as far as I know what the situation on the

 2     ground was, everybody was controlling everything.

 3        Q.   But you know that under the law, the police was not authorised to

 4     control the army and that army was not authorised to control civilian

 5     affairs, and there was a conflict between Mr. Tolimir and --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters didn't hear the name of the

 7     officer.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The interpreter couldn't hear after

 9     "Mr. Tolimir and."

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So Mr. Davidovic, as a member of the civilian authorities, the

12     police, stopped a major, frisked him, perhaps he even detained him, and

13     General Tolimir -- actually, we showed this document when Mr. Davidovic

14     testified here.  General Tolimir protested, and that is something that

15     was not allowed.  Is that regulated by law, the military is not allowed

16     to conduct civilian police work, and the civilian police is not allowed

17     to do military police work?

18        A.   That's the way it should be as a rule, but that's not the way it

19     was on the ground.

20        Q.   In the cases when this did not happen on the ground these were

21     violations of the law; right?

22        A.   The general could write up a report saying that this man had

23     violated the law.  However, when a civilian policeman brings me in as a

24     military conscript, is that a violation of the law or not?  But that did

25     happen, indeed, with military conscripts in the town of Zvornik itself.

Page 17541

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So the check-point near the front line at Crni Vrh,

 2     the military part was controlled by the military, and the police part --

 3     actually, was there a police part of the check-point at Crni Vrh?  Was

 4     there a police team there?

 5        A.   No, there wasn't a police team there.  There was only a military

 6     team there, because policemen were standing only at the crossing on the

 7     bridge between the two states, Republika Srpska and Serbia.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So, in Zvornik, the army was not exercising this

 9     control but it was the police, and at Crni Vrh, it wasn't the police but

10     the army; right?

11        A.   It is correct that at Crni Vrh it wasn't the police that was

12     exercising control.  There was no control whatsoever exercised by the

13     police in Zvornik as regards the check-point.  It was only at the

14     crossing at the bridge that they looked at documents.  They were not

15     exercising any other control.  Only sometimes they would arrest military

16     conscripts who were in town, and as a rule, military men should be

17     arrested by the military police not the civilian police, but this kind of

18     thing did happen.  The civilian police sometimes arrested military men

19     too.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we actually have to move into

22     private session.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 17542











11  Pages 17542-17547 redacted. Private session.















Page 17548

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  It's time to take a break.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please tell me also --

21     can you please tell me how much time I'm going to be given?

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for half an hour, after which

23     you'll have 35 minutes to conclude.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

Page 17549

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, I'm afraid we have to move

20     into private session.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17550











11  Pages 17550-17553 redacted. Private session.















Page 17554

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Well, perhaps I am mistaken here, but maybe not.  Anyway, was the

12     car returned to you?  The other items were given back to you, but the car

13     that was found in that yard, was that returned?

14        A.   Well, the car that was found in the yard was not returned to me,

15     and it wasn't even my car.  As for my own car, it was returned, and they

16     had difficulty locating where the car actually was, because it was not on

17     the premises of Bijeljina MUP.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's move on to the arrest itself, and let's

19     deal with that topic.  Now, do you recall that before the arrest in

20     Zvornik, the unit of Mico Davidovic's, which had come as -- for -- as

21     support, as a support unit, after my address to Panic and then --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry to interrupt, but I'm fairly certain that the

24     arrest is also a matter covered in private session.  I don't think the

25     preliminary matters Mr. Karadzic has addressed have created any problem,

Page 17555

 1     but if he's moving on to the arrest itself, that's where we'll be.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your warning.  Yes.  Back to you,

 3     Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies.  Well, as 170 persons

 5     were arrested, I thought this could not really help anyone identify any

 6     of those.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  No.  What matters is whether it was in private

 8     session in the previous proceedings.  That's the practice we are taking

 9     at this moment.

10             MR. TIEGER:  And, of course, ultimately the issue is going to

11     involve this witness, and he'll be moving toward his own involvement, and

12     it will narrow that field.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Shall we go into private session?  Yes.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17556











11  Pages 17556-17569 redacted. Private session.















Page 17570

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, that will be admitted as

Page 17571

 1     Exhibit D1638.

 2             Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat what you said?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for five minutes

 4     for myself.  If you can go on without me, then that would be fine.

 5     Otherwise, let us take a five-minute break so that I could refresh

 6     myself, because I'm quite exhausted.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Either way is -- well, not either way is fine --

 8     yeah.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  It's more prudent to take a break for five minutes.

10     We'll break for five minutes.

11                           --- Break taken at 1.26 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President, and I will also endeavour

15     to be as efficient as possible with the very few questions and documents

16     I'd like to put to the witness.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But for your information, Ms. Elliott, I wonder if

18     there's a point of continuing with the next witness --

19             MR. TIEGER:  I -- I --

20             JUDGE KWON:  -- given the time.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  I think we're probably at that point,

22     Your Honour, and we were having the same discussion here as well.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I think I need to move into private session for this

25     first question.

Page 17572

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17573











11  Page 17573 redacted. Private session.















Page 17574

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'd next like to ask you about a matter that was

11     raised earlier today and that referred back to something that you said

12     yesterday as well.  That was at page 18 today.  And there were several

13     questions in connection with this, I believe, but Mr. Karadzic asked you

14     about access to MUP weapons, which ethnic group had weapons and was

15     displaying weapons and so forth.  For example, at page 18, yesterday --

16     the question was:

17             "Yesterday, you mentioned that the Muslims took all the weapons

18     from the depot that belonged to the police," and asked whether that meant

19     that the Muslims had MUP weapons in their hands and only later the Serbs

20     managed to take control of the TO depot.

21             I'd like to quickly show you 65 ter 00654.

22             And I would ask to direct the witness's attention -- it might be

23     helpful to show the next page first, just indicate what that is for the

24     witness, in both English and B/C/S, and then again the next page after

25     that.

Page 17575

 1             So this is a MUP document from Zvornik, Mr. Witness, outlining

 2     some work activities and some retrospective information from 1992 as

 3     well.

 4             And if we could turn to page 20 in e-court of the English and

 5     page 17 of the B/C/S.  And if I could ask you to look at the middle of

 6     the page in B/C/S.  And it should be, I believe, toward the bottom of the

 7     page in English where the report indicates that working on various

 8     check-points during the months of January and February.  Again, this is -

 9     if we could look toward the top of the page - referring back to 1992.

10             Police personnel of Serb nationality enabled the transport of

11     weapons, ammunition, and other materiel and technical equipment necessary

12     for the arming of the Serb people in the territory of this municipality.

13             First, Mr. Witness, let me just ask you, very specifically,

14     whether you were aware of activity by Serbian members of the MUP to

15     ensure that members of the Serb community were armed prior to the

16     outbreak of the conflict.

17        A.   All I can say in relation to the operation of the Zvornik public

18     security station in that period is that it was not the Serbian policemen

19     who took weapons from the MUP in Zvornik, but it was the Muslims who

20     controlled the situation.  There were more of them at the station, and

21     they were in charge of the whole management.

22             As far as I know, the arming in that period was assisted by the

23     policemen but in such a way that they were able to load it from

24     Mali Zvornik and transfer it to the other side.  However, what they

25     exactly did in that respect, I don't know.

Page 17576

 1             As for the weapons that remained in MUP, the Muslims took and

 2     distributed amongst themselves.  The Serbian policemen were checking the

 3     bridges and everything, which enabled the transfer from the depot in

 4     Mali Zvornik to Karakaj.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that document, Mr. President.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  He didn't confirm anything, and then he just put

 9     specific part of almost 60-page document.  What is the point of admitting

10     this through this witness, Mr. Tieger?

11             But I note the time.  I'm very much concerned about time.  You

12     will have another opportunity to tender this one.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I think -- first of all, I think there was

14     confirmation the arming in that period was assisted by the policemen.

15     Second, there's no dispute about the authenticity and relevance of this

16     document.  I have been extremely liberal with Mr. Robinson and

17     Mr. Karadzic in their use of documents in a similar manner.  I didn't

18     expect that a document that's clearly relevant to this issue --

19             JUDGE KWON:  You have more questions, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I don't.  That was my last question, Your Honour.  I

21     do tender this document again, however.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, what did you want to say?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We don't -- there's two

24     issues.  This paragraph, whether that should be admitted, you can decide

25     that, but a 60-page document shouldn't be admitted simply because one

Page 17577

 1     paragraph has been referred to.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, are you happy with admitting this page

 3     and the cover page, probably?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I don't accept that as a general proposition.

 5     I think we haven't been doing that, but under the circumstances and in

 6     light of the time, I realise that's a way to move us forward at the

 7     moment and I'll accept that.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber appreciates your understanding.

 9             The two pages will be admitted as Exhibit P3183.

10             Sir, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber and

11     the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to

12     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

13             We'll rise altogether, and have a nice weekend.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day

17                           of August, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.