1 Friday, 19 August 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. The Chamber will give its
6 ruling on certain pending matters.
7 With respect to the accused's 56th motion for finding of
8 disclosure violations and for sanctions, Witness KDZ-029, which was filed
9 yesterday, 18th of August, 2011, the Chamber has considered the arguments
10 of the accused and the Prosecution's written response and finds that the
11 Prosecution violated its obligation under Rule 66(A)(ii) by failing to
12 disclose the proofing note of KDZ-029 before the 7 May 2009 dead-line.
13 However, the accused himself acknowledges that the "substance of the
14 proofing note is not earth-shattering" and does not suggest that he has
15 been prejudiced by this late disclosure.
16 Having reviewed the one-page proofing note and considering the
17 submissions of the parties, the Chamber finds that the accused will have
18 sufficient time to consider this newly disclosed document and incorporate
19 it if necessary in his cross-examination of KDZ-029. Given the length
20 and content of the new material, the Chamber is not convinced that the
21 accused has been prejudiced by this late disclosure. In these
22 circumstances, the requested exclusion of KDZ-029's testimony is denied.
4 We go into private session.
5 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We have filed a motion for
10 subpoena for Christoph von Bezold, and in an attempt to make contact with
11 him, we're told by the German authorities that they would not provide us
12 with his contact details but that any correspondence should go through
13 him -- through them and they would forward it to him. So on the
14 23rd of June we wrote a letter to Mr. von Bezold and sent it to the
15 legal advisor here in The Hague for the German embassy, and we've heard
16 nothing since then. Earlier this week I sent them another correspondence
17 asking them if they could give us a report on whether they had been able
18 to transmit that to Mr. von Bezold and whether they've had any response
19 from him. So I'm hoping to hear from the German authorities in the next
20 few weeks and I'll advise the Chamber as soon as I do, and I think once
21 we've heard, then that matter will be ready for a decision.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Unless there are any
23 matters to be dealt with we'll bring in the witness. Yes, Mr. Robinson.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, just going back
25 for a moment to the issue of our correspondence with states, I just
1 wanted to advise the Chamber that the Registry has taken the position
2 that they won't serve any of our correspondence on the states, so that's
3 why we make them filings. And the Trial Chamber earlier -- the
4 Pre-Trial Chamber had actually ruled that they would not compel the
5 Registry to serve our correspondence on states. As a result, when we
6 initially tried to request documents from states, and I went around on my
7 bicycle to the embassies and handed the letters there, we got no
8 responses, so they treated it as junk mail. So we find that whenever we
9 correspond with the states through the Registry, we do get responses, and
10 when we drop our letters off by ourselves, we don't. So if you don't
11 mind, we would like to find a way to continue to use the services of the
12 Registry so that our communication with the states can be more
14 JUDGE KWON: Having heard that, we will look into the matter
15 again. Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: It's probably because you're going on a bicycle,
18 Mr. Robinson. Maybe if you took a limousine, they might take it rather
19 more serious.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Maybe I'll apply to OLAD for the funds for the
21 limousine for that next time.
22 Also, Mr. President, yesterday we received a motion from the
23 Prosecution for -- notifying us that they had applied for a subpoena for
24 one of their witnesses, and I just wanted to advise the Chamber that we
25 won't be filing a response to that motion.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let us bring in the witness.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had also kindly asked just to say
3 one sentence.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, I would like to say that
6 the ambitions of the Prosecution are not that small in respect of this
7 witness. His amalgamated statement contains 88 pages, and they go into
8 evidence. So the greatest masters of law are asking this simple man all
9 sorts of questions, and he gives answers and all of this goes beyond his
10 role, his education, and his profile as such.
11 To put it bluntly, if this amalgamated statement is going to be
12 admitted into evidence, the Defence is asking for considerably more time.
13 If that will not be the case, Rule 92 ter will be seriously compromised.
14 You saw for yourselves that it's much better when we have
15 viva voce testimony. It is much easier to see whether it is the witness
16 who is formulating his own thoughts or the Prosecution. So I'm asking
17 for more time, please.
18 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has carefully considered various
19 factors, including the scope of anticipated testimony and his
20 92 ter statements and concluded two and a half hours is sufficient for
21 your cross-examination. There's no need to revisit the issue unless --
22 yes, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: I'm -- I think the Court has already made a ruling,
24 so I don't want to spend much time on this, but I think it's worth noting
25 that the amalgamated statement is comprised of examination in court. So
1 the submission is certainly unfounded to the extent it suggests
3 JUDGE KWON: Is the witness being brought in?
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 WITNESS: KDZ-340 [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness. We apologise for the delay this
11 morning. If you weren't advised, it didn't have anything to do with you,
12 but it related to procedural matters that weren't connected with your
13 testimony, so -- but those are completed and now we can begin.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Mr. Witness, you --
17 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, if we could go into private session
18 for the next series of questions.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 17490-17496 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE KWON: Probably due to some time constraint yesterday you
17 forgot to read out the summary of this witness, but that should not have
18 any impact upon our hearing.
19 Are there any objection to the associate exhibits.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We would object to
21 65 ter number 0060 --
22 JUDGE KWON: Just give me a minute. Yes.
23 MR. ROBINSON: We're objecting to just one, 00604, the statement
24 of Svetislav Mitrovic, also known as Niski. In this particular
25 circumstance -- first of all, besides it being the statement of a third
1 person, which we believe is not admissible, if you look at the evidence
2 at page 24 of the witness's amalgamated statement, the statement was only
3 used in the Krajisnik case so that the witness could identify the name of
4 Niski. And so under those circumstances we don't believe that it's
5 indispensable to the understanding of the previous testimony, and for
6 those reasons we would ask that the Court not admit it.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: I think that falls within the ambit of the previous
9 discussion, Your Honour, so I accept Mr. Robinson's position.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And with the exception of that exhibit,
11 i.e., 65 ter 604, and those that have already been admitted, all the
12 associated exhibits will be admitted into evidence and given numbers in
13 due course.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Witness. You'll be asked by
16 Mr. Radovan Karadzic for his cross-examination.
17 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. I would like to take the advantage of your giving testimony in
22 order to shed some light on the events that took place at the very
23 beginning. You confirmed yesterday your earlier statements that on the
24 8th of April you took your family across the Drina to Serbia; is that
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Were you the only one who did that, or were other cases of the
3 same nature?
4 A. Yes. There were many people like that. There were even my
5 neighbours who were Muslims whom I transferred across.
6 Q. Am I right, then, to say that a situation emerged in which both
7 the Muslims and the Serbs wanted at least their families, if not
8 themselves, have transferred across to Serbia?
9 A. Yes. We were all afraid of what the future would bring.
10 JUDGE KWON: Probably you heard this from Victim and Witness
11 Section. Could you please put a pause before you start answering the
12 question, because both of you, Mr. Karadzic and you, are speak the same
13 language. The interpreters have difficulty if you do not -- if you do
14 overlap. Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I will
17 take care of that.
18 JUDGE KWON: No, you don't have to apologise. We do overlap.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you. Now, what happened, and when did this situation
22 begin, the situation which prompted you and all other Serbs, many other
23 Serbs, and even some Muslims, to believe that it was necessary to take
24 your families out of Zvornik to the right-hand side bank of the Drina
25 into Serbia?
1 A. Well, there was mutual mistrust setting in in town. The Serbs
2 didn't believe the Muslims and vice versa. A corporal was killed in
3 Sapna some 15 days ago [as interpreted], I think, before the conflict
4 broke out. Nearly no Serbs came to work at the police station in fear of
5 their lives. For that reason, the Serbian police station was set up in
6 Karakaj and the Muslim remained behind.
7 The Muslims were arming their fellow citizens instead of giving
8 any weapons to the Serbs. So before any hostilities broke out and before
9 we heard about this killing, there were already Muslims under arms a
10 couple of days before the conflict. In Bijeljina they were already in
11 street fully armed, and at that time they were already patrolling the
12 streets. I was also patrolling the streets, but I was not armed. So
13 they were controlling Zvornik until the night of 8th of April, five or
14 six days before the conflict, and after that, the Serbs took over the
15 control of Zvornik in spite of the fact that some Muslims remained in
17 Since a soldier was killed in Zvornik near the department store,
18 and he was fired at from Kula, I suppose, an action was launched to seize
19 Kula because it dominates over Zvornik and there's forest there. So that
20 was a very convenient place for them to hide.
21 This is how I understood the situation in Zvornik at the time.
22 Q. Thank you. Now to simplify things a little. You were saying
23 that there were many Muslims on the streets under arms. Were those
24 long-barrelled arms?
25 A. Yes. I even saw a submachine-gun carried by one man. That was
1 the first time I saw such a weapon. Although I was working in the
2 technical department, I had never seen it before.
3 Q. Were those regular police forces that one could have trusted, or
4 were those some different citizens? Were some people among them who were
5 unreliable or even criminals? And I'm talking about people patrolling
6 the street.
7 A. I did not go downtown at the time, but I did hear that there were
8 criminals with long-barrelled firearms. As for the rest, they were all
9 members of the Zvornik TO. An appeal was broadcast on the Radio Zvornik
10 inviting the citizens to defend the town. However, the radio station was
11 controlled by the Muslim officials. And my neighbours were already in my
12 neighbourhood, or people from thereabout.
13 Q. Mr. Witness, how come that ordinary people and even criminals had
14 so many weapons?
15 A. Well, most probably in compliance with our All People's Defence
16 system there was -- there were arms in depots for the army and the
17 reserve police, and they probably -- these weapons intended for reserve
18 police were distributed to Muslims. And the TO warehouse, which belonged
19 to the army and was intended for defence, was situated in Zvornik. And
20 before the conflict, that was where the Zvornik TO depot was located.
21 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned that the Muslims took all the weapons
22 from the depot that belonged to the police, that the Serbian policemen
23 relocated to Karakaj, to the Serbian part of Zvornik. Does that mean
24 that the Muslims had MUP weapons in their hands and only later the Serbs
25 managed to take control of the TO depot?
1 A. Yeah, one might say that. It was possible for people to obtain
2 weapons in Mali Zvornik. Those were our weapons from Zvornik, as well as
3 the uniforms, ammunition, and everything else. Well, how this was
4 transferred over there I don't know, because I reported only on the
5 13th of April.
6 Q. Thank you. In addition to --
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. I'm sure the witness is -- is
9 trying to comply with the Court's encouragement to pause, but it's, of
10 course, difficult to know. I noted that the Court sometimes suggest to
11 witnesses to watch the cursor and see when that ends and that's -- that's
12 a helpful way of knowing when the translation has been completed. You
13 may want to mention that to the witness as a technique for identifying
14 when the translation has concluded.
15 JUDGE KWON: Could you take that into account, sir.
16 Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
17 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Apart from the weapons that belonged to the MUP or the reserve
20 police, were there any other weapons? Did the parties involved procure
21 weapons? Did the Muslims receive weapons from some quarters and did the
22 Serbs later also receive weapons, or was it taken from these regular
23 depots that under the law were controlled by the municipality?
24 A. That is most probably the case, but I cannot confirm how either
25 of the side procured their weapons. Probably they did it in the way you
2 Q. Thank you. Can one say that in the Muslim part of Zvornik,
3 excluding Karakaj, from the 4th or the 5th of April until the
4 9th of April, only a handful of Serbs remained and that nearly all of
5 them had left either to Karakaj or to Serbia? Can you please wait with
6 your answer.
7 A. That is correct. Many Serbs left Zvornik, particularly those who
8 were living in apartment blocks. Only a few of them remained. Even in
9 my neighbourhood there were many Serb families, and in this period after
10 the 9th of April, only five or six of us remained there on the street
11 where I lived. People who lived in the centre of town in apartment
12 blocks, once they saw who was patrolling the town, they immediately left.
13 On the afternoon of the 8th of April, a bus was put to block the bridge
14 which prevented anyone leaving Zvornik by car. When I wanted to return
15 to Zvornik, I had to go through Karakaj and then through the Scemlija
16 village. I had to take this village road in order to reach my house
17 where my mother and father and brother were, and I wanted to take them
19 Q. Who blocked the bridge by putting the bus there?
20 A. It was the Muslims. At Vidakova Njiva, which is the exit point
21 towards Karakaj, they also erected a roadblock on the 6th or
22 7th of April.
23 Q. Thank you. It seems to me -- but just one more question. Did
24 anyone persuade the Serbs to leave, or did they reach their own
25 conclusions and were they afraid when they saw who was patrolling the
1 streets under arms?
2 A. I was afraid for the security of my family. That's why I took
3 them away. But I myself returned to Zvornik. Generally speaking,
4 everybody was afraid of something.
5 Q. Sometimes you say you returned on the 13th, and in another
6 testimony of yours, on the first page of -- second page of your
7 amalgamated statement you say that you returned on the same day, the 8th.
8 It is not exactly important, but can you tell us if you returned on the
9 8th and reported for mobilisation, or did you return on the 13th?
10 A. I returned on the 8th of April. During the fight for Zvornik, I
11 was in my home. I went to Scemlija. My mother, myself, my two Serbian
12 neighbours, and two Muslim neighbours went there. I remained there until
13 the afternoon. My mother and my brother and the Muslims left earlier. I
14 remained in Scemlija. I exited the town via Tomanici Escilja [phoen].
15 After that I went back to Serbia once again on the 9th of April, and then
16 I came back on the 13th and reported at the Crisis Staff.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
18 be asked to slow down a bit. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: In addition to putting a pause between question and
20 answer, could you kindly slow down as well when you speak. Very kind,
21 thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. So we have clarified this. It is correct that you
25 returned on the same day and that you returned on the 13th.
1 Do you remember that on the 4th of April the Rump Presidency of
2 BH made up of Muslim and Croat members declared general mobilisation, and
3 apart from the killing of the JNA column and mobilisation itself,
4 contributed to the emergence of such a huge number of unauthorised people
5 bearing long-barrelled arms and weapons on the streets of Zvornik?
6 A. All of that contributed to this, even the killing of the wedding
7 party in Sarajevo. This undermined the trust of citizens, not only in
8 Zvornik but in other places as well, because at that time we were all
9 watching the news and trying to get as much information as possible. We
10 don't know how correct and accurate they were, but we were all very much
11 involved regardless of our ethnicity in following what was going on.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you notice then that a slaughter took place in
13 Sijekovac on the 26th of March?
14 A. I cannot confirm that.
15 Q. Was that covered by the media?
16 A. Yeah, possibly, but I myself cannot confirm that. I'm not
17 100 per cent sure that I heard of it.
18 Q. Thank you. You said that you were aware that there was a crisis
19 in Bijeljina. Did that have an impact on the fear instilled in the Serbs
20 in Zvornik?
21 A. In my opinion, that was not the only factor that caused fear
22 among the Serbs. They went out in Bijeljina walking around the town
23 bearing weapons, and that was a very strong psychological effect. We
24 were just concerned about the possibility of trying to avoid any
25 conflict. Although we Serbs had some weapons, we decided not even to
1 display any handguns in order to avoid being blamed for the conflict,
2 because when you have two sides who are armed, there will always be
3 somebody who is foolish enough to pull out his weapon and fire, because
4 the atmosphere was such. There was something in the air indicating that
5 a conflict was going to erupt.
6 Q. Thank you. And then you reported to the Crisis Staff in response
7 to mobilisation. Was that also in accordance with the Law on
8 All People's Defence, that is to say, that it was the municipality that
9 was in charge of defence, and in some of your statements you said just
10 like the president of the state is the Commander-in-Chief, likewise the
11 president of municipality is the Commander-in-Chief with respect to the
12 defence of a municipality; right?
13 A. We had an All People's Defence system before the war, so all
14 members of a certain age, after they finished their compulsory military
15 service were members of the TO or the reserve police. So that applied to
16 the civilians who were also mobilised.
17 I automatically was a member of the TO, and subsequently I became
18 a member of the armed forces. Of course, one had to know who was in
19 charge. All these operations were administered and run by the president
20 of the municipality, although we had staff commanders, but he was in
21 charge of the civilian side of that. I presume that they were constantly
22 discussing and agreeing how to proceed.
23 Q. So the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik issued
24 this call, and that is what you said in pages 2 and 3 of your amalgamated
25 statement. You said that everybody, regardless of their ethnicity, was
1 called up, and you said that at that time, Serbs remained living in the
2 Serbian part of Zvornik, as well as some Muslims, that they responded as
3 well, and that you set up joint patrols; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. We were all there, the Serbs and the Muslims alike. Zuca
5 told me, "Let Serbs patrol also, and this will improve our chances of
6 maintaining the law and order."
7 Q. Thank you. He said something -- actually, Stevo Radic said
8 something similar. He said, "It is not important if a person is a
9 Muslim. He is a citizen of the town, and let him patrol, because that's
10 his place of residence."
11 A. I didn't have many contacts with Stevo Radic in that period. I
12 just applied for a pass for going to Serbia and for movement around town.
13 Most frequently, because Stevo Radic was busy, I contacted Zuco, but
14 Stevo Radic did tell me that he agrees for both the Muslims and the Serbs
15 to patrol together.
16 Q. I'm looking at what you say at the top of page 5 of your
17 amalgamated statement, which corroborates what you just said. This has
18 been attributed to Radic, but you say that Zuca maintained a similar
19 position. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then there's a reference here to a Muslim on page 5.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I kindly ask Mr. Tieger for his
23 assistance. Do we need to go into private session since it has to do
24 with a personal relationship?
25 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think Dr. Karadzic thoughtfully raises a
1 good point, but the answer is no. Two things: As I indicated to
2 Mr. Robinson yesterday, we attempted to indicate as clearly as possible
3 whether a matter previously was addressed in open or private session, and
4 one can see that under the page references. So that's a helpful way of
5 indicating that. I appreciate that there may be circumstances which give
6 rise to confidentiality concerns otherwise, but I don't think this is
7 one. I think it was raised in that manner before.
8 And by way of clarification about something the accused said
9 earlier, I think that the reference at the top of page 5 was not
10 attributed to Radic but was attributed in -- if one looks at the
11 beginning of that passage at the bottom of page 4 and continuing on to
12 page 5, it's clearly a reference consistent with what the witness said in
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I also prefer to remain
16 in open session.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So you did have an opportunity of seeing that the late
19 Sejfudin Hadziefendic was brought in, and in passing you were asked
20 whether you knew him, and you said when you identified him in the car,
21 you said that you knew him and that he was a good man and that he should
22 be released and that they should apologise to him; right?
23 A. First of all, Sejfudin is not Hadziefendic, he is Hadziavdic. I
24 said that because I had knowledge from 1991, as far as back as that, and
25 we knew each other for many years before that. When there was this
1 conflict this Croatia, because we all knew that humanitarian aid was
2 being sent to Croatia, it wasn't being sent to Serbs, it was sent to
3 Croats in Croatia, he asked me then how he could provide humanitarian aid
4 to the Krajina, and I said through the Red Cross from Serbia. And he did
5 what I said. He said, "(redacted) that is what I did."
6 And knowing all of that, that he is a hard working and honest
7 man, when I saw who it was, that is why I said what I said, that he's an
8 honest and that he is a fair man. I did not say that he sent aid to
9 Serbs in Croatia I just said that he was an exceptionally fair and honest
10 man and that they should release him and that nobody should touch him and
11 that they should apologise to him.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Can we go into private session briefly.
14 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. So these were very dramatic times, right? You were not some
18 office-holder in the government. Basically you were an ordinary citizen.
19 They asked you about that man. Is it correct that they released him and
20 that they apologised to him?
21 A. It is correct that they released him and apologised to him.
22 After these clashes, when he came to see me he told me about that. We
23 did not discuss it at length. He just said, "It's all right that they
24 listened to what you said. They took me back, and they apologised for
25 having done what they did."
1 Q. Thank you. If I had the amount of time that I had asked for,
2 every answer of yours would have been precious to me, no matter how
3 extensive. However, in view of how short our time is, let us try to keep
4 your answers as short as possible whenever possible.
5 Does that mean that the persons who brought him in cared about
6 whether he actually did something or not and whether he was an honest
8 A. I think there are two questions there, whether he had done
9 something and whether he was an honest man. My answer yes, he's an
10 honest man.
11 Q. And those who detained him, was that important for them to
12 realise whether he was an honest man or whether he had done something
14 A. Most probably, yes.
15 Q. Thank you. On page 7 now of your amalgamated statement --
16 actually, I'd like us to make a distinction. Do you agree that in our
17 system, before the Army of Republika Srpska was established, there was a
18 municipal brigade of the Territorial Defence?
19 A. There was not a municipal brigade of the Territorial Defence.
20 There was a detachment of the TO. As for the establishment of this
21 brigade and the municipality and the Army of Republika Srpska, that is
22 when the brigade was formed and then the detachment no longer existed.
23 The detachment could also have several battalions like the brigade did,
24 so it's similar but the formulation is different.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the Army of Republika Srpska came
1 into being on the 20th of May, after the withdrawal of the JNA?
2 A. I agree with that, yes.
3 Q. So up until the 20th of May, there was a detachment of the
4 Territorial Defence that was under civilian control of the Crisis Staff
5 and under the command of the commander of the TO of the municipality;
7 A. Yes. The commander of the staff of the TO.
8 Q. Thank you. After having reported from the 13th of April until
9 the 3rd or 4th of May, you were given a task by the Crisis Staff to
10 patrol the streets, and you did that with one or two Muslims who had also
11 been given that assignment by the Territorial Defence; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. On the 4th of May, you were told that you should
14 report to the commander of the Territorial Defence, and you waited for
15 them all day because they were somewhere at the front line facing Sapna
16 and Nezuk. Were they attacking Sapna and Nezuk, or were the Muslims from
17 Sapna and Nezuk attacking the Serb part of Zvornik?
18 A. I don't know exactly whether they were attacking, but they were
19 in Sapna and Nezuk. In the evening, sometime on the 4th or 5th,
20 Aco Sekanic saw me, and I then reported on the morning of the 6th to the
21 Crisis Staff, to the TO staff, in order to get a particular assignment.
22 So that was St. George's Day. And they went to Nezuk. Now, why? For
23 which reason? I really cannot say because I was not in contact with
24 them, so I had no way of knowing. About these details, that is.
25 Q. Thank you. Who had Sapna and Nezuk under their control? You say
1 "they." Were Sapna and Nezuk in Muslim-held territory?
2 A. Sapna and Nezuk were under Muslim control, like Zaselak [phoen]
3 and a few other villages in the area.
4 Q. Thank you. On page 8, we see what kind of work you were
5 assigned, and that was in line with your VES, that is to say, your
6 military speciality that you were assigned while serving in the JNA,
7 while doing your military service, compulsory military service; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then the Army of Republika Srpska was established on the
10 20th of May, and then sometime in the beginning of June, the
11 Zvornik Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska was established; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. For a short period of time the commander of that brigade was
15 Mr. Blagojevic; right? And then -- and then he was replaced -- actually,
16 can you help us with that? Who replaced Blagojevic?
17 A. Slobodan Vasilic, Bobe.
18 Q. Ah-ha. Thank you. That has nothing to do with the Vasilic who
19 was in the MUP; right?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Vasilic not Vasovic. But, all right, that can be corrected in
22 the transcript.
23 Now I'd like us to specify something. The municipality kept the
24 infrastructure of the Territorial Defence, which is owned by the
25 municipality anyway; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. There was still a commander of the Territorial Defence, and there
3 was -- there were still depots of the Territorial Defence, and in a way
4 they were supposed to be under the supervision of the army, but basically
5 they are a municipal institution; right?
6 A. The depot of the Territorial Defence that was in Mali Zvornik was
7 not functioning until the 19th of May because all the materiel and
8 technical resources that were there were transferred to Zvornik.
9 Q. To familiarise the Trial Chamber with this, while there was still
10 a single state, Mali Zvornik was on the right bank of the river and is in
11 Serbia, and Zvornik, which is on the other side of the river in Bosnia,
12 it was one and the same thing while there was a single state; right?
13 A. Yes. And it was only the Drina River that was between them.
14 Q. Thank you. Does that mean the Serb municipality of Zvornik
15 because it remained without any infrastructure of the MUP and without the
16 weapons of the MUP and without the weapons of the Territorial Defence of
17 companies and enterprises that are in the urban area, does that mean that
18 they took over their municipal property from Mali Zvornik and transferred
19 it to the Bosnian part of Zvornik, to Zvornik as such, and that they
20 established a depot there and the infrastructure of the Territorial
21 Defence; right?
22 MR. TIEGER: That seems an enormously complicated question that
23 also builds in some facts not in evidence, so I think it needs to be
24 deconstructed and commenced again.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could you break down the questions.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that we had established
2 that, that the entire infrastructure and the weaponry of the MUP had
3 remained in Muslim hands; whereas the infrastructure of the Territorial
4 Defence remained in Mali Zvornik and that the Serbs took it over and
5 returned it to the Serb municipality of Zvornik.
6 JUDGE KWON: Ask questions.
7 MR. TIEGER: Right. And I would also emphasise that that relates
8 to particular periods of time. I understand that Mr. Dr. Karadzic is now
9 in May. I think the previous answer referred to sometime in early April,
10 and I think in order to have any clarity at all, those matters need to be
11 raised discretely and clearly.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. In a word, the Serb municipality of Zvornik, did it transfer the
15 weaponry and depot of the Territorial Defence across the river and
16 establish their own depot?
17 A. Yes. That's April. And then up until the 19th of May, it was
18 only natural that people went to their own warehouse and that's in
19 Serbia, but then that turned out to be a different state. At the time I
20 was involved in the transportation of this equipment from Serbia to our
21 depots that were in Standard and even in the atomic shelter of the Birac
22 factory, because we had three hangars there where our equipment was, and
23 we could not find enough room for all of that in Standard.
24 Q. Am I right if I say that in the Serb part of Zvornik, or, rather,
25 the Serb municipality of Zvornik, Karakaj, Alhos, Standard, and Glinica,
1 all of them are there in this area that was always populated by Serbs.
2 Had there not been a war, it would have been the Serb municipality of
4 A. Yes, because the population there was 99.99 per cent Serb. But
5 the Glinica Alumina factory had their own weapons and other weapons had
6 their own weapons, but all of that was within the system of All People's
7 Defence in the depots in Mali Zvornik.
8 Q. Thank you. On page 11 of your amalgamated statement you say that
9 some people, that is to say, this Pavlovic, he actually had a different
10 name and you found out about that much later. Can one say that sometimes
11 people did falsely represent themselves either in terms of their name or
12 the office they held or the importance they had? Were there situations
13 where people would come and introduce themselves in a certain way but
14 that way would turn out to be false or exaggerated?
15 A. I'm sorry, but I did not really understand your question.
16 Q. Was it only this Pavlovic who used a false name when introducing
17 himself, or were there other people who introduced themselves by using
18 certain nicknames or were they using their own names but inventing
19 offices and positions they held?
20 A. Pavlovic falsely represented himself at the time, because later I
21 found out that his name was Branislav Popovic. Other persons just
22 introduced themselves by their nicknames. They did not give their first
23 and last names. So quite a few people were known by their nicknames. As
24 for the particular offices that they held -- how do I put this? It was
25 either in the municipality or in the brigade. They decided who would
1 hold which position and where. As far as I can understand your question,
2 that is.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, we'll have break
5 now for 20 minutes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you remember that the republican organs had not declared a
13 state of war ever on the level of the whole republic and only seldom they
14 did it partially?
15 A. Yes. I remember that it wasn't declared. The only thing that
16 was declared was an imminent threat of war.
17 Q. Do you recall that under such conditions civilian structures
18 exist, including the Territorial Defence, and that it was the civilian
19 authorities who were in charge of the territory and the army was in
20 charge of the front line?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember how long the process of constituting and
23 equipping the 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade last? Was it up until
24 sometime in mid-June?
25 A. The forming of the brigade started towards the end of May, and
1 they gave their solemn oath on the St. Vitus Day, on the 28th of June.
2 Q. Thank you. Can I just now establish a clear distinction between
3 the situation that prevailed until the 28th of June and the one after
4 that. Is it true that volunteers reported to the municipal authorities,
5 whether you wish to call them a Crisis Staff, the Presidency of the
6 municipality or interim government? Did they report it in keeping with
7 the law and the decision of the SFRY Presidency stipulating that
8 volunteers were a legitimate and regular force?
9 A. I didn't quite understand your question relating to the
11 Q. In a nutshell, was it regulated by law and was it legal for
12 volunteers to report?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were local people subject to military obligation, whereas those
15 who were not subject to that obligation, that they came from other
16 countries such as Serbia, Montenegro, et cetera?
17 A. We who were locals had an obligation to defend ourselves and to
18 be part of those units. As for them, I don't know exactly to whom they
19 reported once they arrived. However, later on they were all assigned to
20 the brigade units.
21 Q. Thank you. Let us establish that they came, they were assigned
22 to TO brigades, and when they formed their separate units, such as
23 Pivarski, Niski, Yellow Wasps, et cetera, it turned out that there were
24 many local conscripts in those units?
25 A. Yes, they were members of battalion. More than 80 per cent of
1 local residents were in Zuco's voluntary units, in Zuco's units.
2 Q. Thank you. Can one say, and that can be inferred from many
3 statement of yours, that the majority of the volunteers, both those who
4 came from elsewhere and the local ones, that they were all patriots, that
5 they were good people and well behaved on the line?
6 A. Yes. The majority of them were well behaved. However, there
7 were isolated incidents and misbehaviour. Nobody can deny that, but that
8 was happening everywhere.
9 Q. Thank you. Can we look at page 13 of your statement. You were
10 asked in open session in another case about who issued tasks, and it was
11 established that after St. Vitus Day, the 28th of June, when the brigade
12 became official and legitimate, it was possible for Marko Pavlovic as
13 well to give orders to the Territorial Defence, whereas the commander of
14 the brigade issued orders to his troops.
15 A. Yes. But I don't know what kind of co-operation existed between
16 Marko Pavlovic and the brigade commander. I don't know what kind of
17 meetings they had, but it is true that both of them issued assignments
18 and gave assignments to the conscripts.
19 Q. You mentioned that you were a reserve officer. Did you have any
21 A. Yes. I was a non-commissioned officer, more specifically a
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I'm now on page 13. Tell me, does this look to you as some kind
1 of state of dual authority, because both were entitled to issue orders?
2 A. Well, one can say that because within the defence system, if you
3 have a regular unit, such as brigade, it's up to them to issue. However,
4 what they're going to agree mutually between themselves, what was
5 important for the responsibility of the brigade, I cannot go into those
6 details. The situation was such that the military conscripts should
7 receive orders only by the brigade commander regarding their activities.
8 That is what I think, at least, because by the very fact of the brigade
9 being formed, all of us who had been before that in Territorial Defence
10 Staff were transferred to this unit, both the reserve officers and
11 active-duty officers, and we were supposed to receive orders directly
12 from the brigade.
13 Q. Thank you. But that didn't happen immediately; right?
14 A. Yes. With the establishment of detachment, this was still not a
15 practice. This happened maybe after I left detention. While I was in
16 detention that was the situation, but after that Marko Pavlovic actually
17 left Zvornik.
18 Q. Thank you. You have confirmed that Marko Pavlovic, and that's on
19 page 13, that Marko Pavlovic had some kind of certificate testifying that
20 he was a member of the VRS. Did he need such a certificate in order to
21 pass through the army check-points, because army did not recognise this
22 dual status?
23 A. This certificate was issued to him when he left Zvornik on the
24 28th of August in order for him to be able to regulate his status outside
25 the territory of Republika Srpska. That's what I think, because before
1 that, he himself could have signed such a certificate, and he was
2 authorised to issue documents of that nature.
3 Q. Thank you. You spoke about the fact that everyone who appeared
4 on the lines would receive orders from the regional commander of the
5 brigade in its area of responsibility. It is true that although there
6 was no war, whoever appeared on the line, be it the police, the
7 volunteers, the Territorial Defence, had to be resubordinated to the
8 local brigade commander in his area of responsibility. Was that a
9 customary practice?
10 A. That's how it should be. But it wasn't the case on many
11 occasion, because the civilian authorities had their command, and the
12 police, for example, ignored the orders coming from the brigade commander
13 because they had a different structure. Perhaps the reason for that was
14 that only an imminent state of war was declared rather than a state of
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Imminent threat of
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So from your answer on page 16, where you say that you were not
20 quite sure who was issuing assignments, do you agree that after the
21 brigade was formed, that is to say, from early July onwards, there was a
22 certain confusion in terms of the authority and who was commanding whom
23 and who was under whom?
24 A. Yes. I think that many people were confused.
25 Q. On page 17 you speak about the manner in which equipment and
1 materiel were issued from the Territorial Defence depot. What was
2 required was for someone to write a requisition order or something like
3 that. Somebody has to approve it, and then the required equipment is
4 issued in compliance with what was approved, not what was requisitioned.
5 Now, this whole procedure, was that something that was inherited
6 from the previous system, or was it something new?
7 A. That was something inherited from the previous system, because
8 the practice was, first of all, to have an order about operations, and
9 after that, ammunition would be requisitioned from the depot, but it was
10 issued according to the approval. It was well known how many kits were
11 required for how many soldiers. If somebody asked for 10.000 rounds of
12 ammunition, they couldn't receive only 5, because what had to be taken
13 into account was the imminent operation.
14 Q. If those who were deployed on the front line were responsible and
15 answerable to the brigade commander, who were all these groups
16 accountable during the periods when they were not on the front line but
17 in town?
18 A. I cannot tell you to whom they were accountable.
19 Q. On page 17 you mention Pivarski. Did Pivarski hail from that
21 A. Pivarski is from Croatia. He was born somewhere in the vicinity
22 of Vukovar or Borovo Selo. I don't know exactly. All I know is that he
23 was from Croatia.
24 Q. Was the majority of his fighters also from that local area or did
25 they come from some place else?
1 A. A number of volunteers came from outside, but I don't know where
2 from. However, 70 to 80 per cent of all these units, Niski, Pivarski,
3 Zuco, accounted or were made up of our local fighters.
4 Q. Do you agree that up until the 1st of July, the Territorial
5 Defence and then the brigade, after the 1st of July, could have raised
6 objections to the fact that local people were members of the formations
7 that were being treated as volunteer units and later on as paramilitary?
8 Was there any criticism with respect to local people being there?
9 A. As far as I know, there were no objections, because we from the
10 command assigned people to that unit. Whether that was done by the TO
11 staff or the brigade, that was how it worked.
12 Q. You are talking about the time of the Territorial Defence?
13 A. Yes, but also about the time when the brigade was formed. So
14 military conscripts, local conscripts, were assigned to those very units.
15 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned that these units got some names,
16 and most often they liked to call themselves special units. Was there an
17 authorised organ that gave them that name, special units, or did they
18 call themselves that?
19 A. I cannot say who gave them these attributes.
20 Q. However, you haven't seen a single document on the basis of which
21 a unit was proclaimed a special unit or something like that?
22 A. No, I haven't seen anything like that. Because, actually, I
23 didn't have any documents that were accessible to me in view of the
24 position that I held.
25 Q. Thank you. As a reserve junior officer or non-commissioned
1 officer or junior sergeant, as you had put it, in peacetime after you did
2 your military service, were you called up for military exercises?
3 A. Yes. One month after demobilisation I was called up.
4 Q. Were you employed somewhere at the time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How many times did you spend on these drills or military
8 A. At that time, seven or ten days.
9 Q. During those seven or ten days, were you provided with a salary
10 by your company or by the military department, or did the military
11 department reimburse your company?
12 A. In 1996, when I attended this military exercise, nobody refunded
13 my salary, because beforehand it was the Ministry of Defence that carried
14 out these obligations until 1991 in the case of such military exercises.
15 Afterwards, no one could afford that, but I did file an application,
17 Q. Thank you for this clarification. I was actually referring to
18 the period before this war. Once you did your military service, your
19 compulsory military service, you were given this rank and then you were
20 called up for military exercises; right?
21 A. Yes. And in that period I was given a salary in view of the rank
22 that I held and also my salary was reimbursed and I was given per diems.
23 That was before the war.
24 Q. All right. That was the system. Either the company would pay
25 out your salary and it would be reimbursed by the ministry, or the
1 ministry would pay it directly to you if you were not employed; right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. The municipal Territorial Defence, the system of Territorial
4 Defence, did it inherit the very same system? Namely, if persons are not
5 employed, then they pay them directly, whereas if they are employed, they
6 are paid by their salary. So this is not taken out of their own
8 A. Yes. That's the way it was during the war too.
9 Q. Let us not try to find the documents now. Did you know that
10 there were payrolls for persons who were not employed anywhere and who
11 were engaged by the Territorial Defence and then the municipality paid
12 them; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is that how you received your salary?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Until when and from whom?
17 A. The payroll was provided to the brigade. I was in the brigade at
18 the time. While I was in the brigade, that is when I received a salary.
19 And I received a salary for the month of June, because that's when I was
20 placed on this list, and I received a salary for the month of June. In
21 the beginning of July, I was transferred to Zuco's unit, and I did not
22 receive a salary for the month of July.
23 Q. Did I understand you correctly that after that first place that
24 you were dismissed from, you received a salary for that from the
25 Territorial Defence; right?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, if necessary, can we just
2 briefly move into private session, please.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So volunteers from the Territorial Defence were receiving
2 salaries from the municipality -- or, rather, the Territorial Defence,
3 although 70 or 80 per cent of them were locals; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. You mentioned several times, and you confirmed here
6 that most of these volunteers were fair, proper, good fighters, patriots.
7 Is that a reason why many arrested persons were released very soon after
8 their arrest?
9 A. I did not say that many volunteers were fair and honest. I said
10 that a large number of the fighters who were in the units. That did not
11 only refer to volunteers but it referred to locals as well. I said that
12 they were fair, that they were honest, and that in all units and among
13 people in general, there are all kinds.
14 As for this second question, why some people were released
15 earlier and we were released later, in my opinion and in the opinion of
16 most of us who remained in detention, and that's most probably the case
17 anyway, we were kept because of Pale and because of the check-point.
18 That is the reason why we were kept there, because all the others were
19 released after seven or eight days, many volunteers, many locals as well.
20 It's not only that volunteers were kept. Seven or eight of us were kept
21 in detention.
22 Q. Thank you. What about the rest? They were deployed to other
23 units, and these existing units ceased to exist actually; right?
24 A. Other volunteers from the groups of Niski and Pivarski were
25 deployed in other units; whereas volunteers from Zuco's group, that is to
1 say, persons who were not from that area, they were transferred to
2 Mitrovica. They did not stay in our region.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you know that a list was compiled of 41 or
4 43 persons who were banned from Republika Srpska after that? Did that
5 relate to those individuals, those who were transferred to Mitrovica?
6 A. I wouldn't know about this list. That was not accessible to me
7 anyway. However, afterwards, as for one of these persons who was
8 detained with me, I saw him in Republika Srpska again. He was not in our
9 region. I saw him at a different front line.
10 Q. On page 22, I'd like to deal with the question of what you were
11 suspected of. Was it assistance, contacts, collaboration with the
13 Am I correct that in terms of contact with Muslims and helping
14 Muslims, no one would have held it against you, but they would hold it
15 against you if it were collaboration, because that would have meant
16 contact with the Muslim armed forces; right? That's not what you did;
18 A. No, no, not that. We did not do that. We did help whenever we
19 could save someone. There were foolish people who didn't do that. There
20 were people like that among us, like anywhere else, but we proceeded from
21 the following: Do not do unto others what you would not want done to
23 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that some crimes were committed
24 anyway -- I actually had to find the reference here, but you can confirm
25 it anyway. Is it correct that some persons committed crimes in Zvornik?
1 A. I don't know whether we're in open session now, because I'd have
2 to mention something. So --
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you. We'll go back -- we'll go
4 into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 17531-17535 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. We're in open session.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, if I could have a page reference quickly,
9 please. I know approximately where it is, but it would be helpful to
10 locate it immediately.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a little patience. I'll do it
14 MR. TIEGER: I've got it now. And the reason I asked for it is I
15 thought that was in private session previously.
16 JUDGE KWON: Page number?
17 MR. TIEGER: Page 36. And I think we therefore need to be in
18 private session again, and therefore we need a redaction for the previous
19 portions of the questioning.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We go back to private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 17538 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Since that was the
5 answer I gave, I'm afraid that it might happen that my name be mentioned
6 and that somebody would establish the connection, because I would have to
7 say what I was doing specifically, and that would be probably sufficient.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can put general questions, and
9 after that we can move to private session.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. So there were check-points established. Can you tell us whether
13 that was the case from April until mid-July? What kind of check-points
14 were established, and what was controlled?
15 A. There was one at Crni Vrh, which was manned by the military
16 police and army in general in order to secure safe passage of the
17 vehicles going to Sekovici and Pale or to Serbia, and there was another
18 check-point in Zvornik, in Karakaj. But there were also points in
19 Bijeljina, because they also checked whether conscripts were passing
20 through, avoiding to join their units. So everything was under control.
21 Q. So the army was controlling what was in their domain, that is to
22 say, the transportation of equipment, ammunition, materiel, and the
23 passage of deserters; is that correct? Whereas the civilian police was
24 in charge of controlling the regularity of cargo, vehicles, supporting
25 documents and things of that nature; is that correct?
1 A. In my opinion and as far as I know what the situation on the
2 ground was, everybody was controlling everything.
3 Q. But you know that under the law, the police was not authorised to
4 control the army and that army was not authorised to control civilian
5 affairs, and there was a conflict between Mr. Tolimir and --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters didn't hear the name of the
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The interpreter couldn't hear after
9 "Mr. Tolimir and."
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So Mr. Davidovic, as a member of the civilian authorities, the
12 police, stopped a major, frisked him, perhaps he even detained him, and
13 General Tolimir -- actually, we showed this document when Mr. Davidovic
14 testified here. General Tolimir protested, and that is something that
15 was not allowed. Is that regulated by law, the military is not allowed
16 to conduct civilian police work, and the civilian police is not allowed
17 to do military police work?
18 A. That's the way it should be as a rule, but that's not the way it
19 was on the ground.
20 Q. In the cases when this did not happen on the ground these were
21 violations of the law; right?
22 A. The general could write up a report saying that this man had
23 violated the law. However, when a civilian policeman brings me in as a
24 military conscript, is that a violation of the law or not? But that did
25 happen, indeed, with military conscripts in the town of Zvornik itself.
1 Q. Thank you. So the check-point near the front line at Crni Vrh,
2 the military part was controlled by the military, and the police part --
3 actually, was there a police part of the check-point at Crni Vrh? Was
4 there a police team there?
5 A. No, there wasn't a police team there. There was only a military
6 team there, because policemen were standing only at the crossing on the
7 bridge between the two states, Republika Srpska and Serbia.
8 Q. Thank you. So, in Zvornik, the army was not exercising this
9 control but it was the police, and at Crni Vrh, it wasn't the police but
10 the army; right?
11 A. It is correct that at Crni Vrh it wasn't the police that was
12 exercising control. There was no control whatsoever exercised by the
13 police in Zvornik as regards the check-point. It was only at the
14 crossing at the bridge that they looked at documents. They were not
15 exercising any other control. Only sometimes they would arrest military
16 conscripts who were in town, and as a rule, military men should be
17 arrested by the military police not the civilian police, but this kind of
18 thing did happen. The civilian police sometimes arrested military men
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we actually have to move into
22 private session.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 17542-17547 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE KWON: It's time to take a break.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please tell me also --
21 can you please tell me how much time I'm going to be given?
22 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for half an hour, after which
23 you'll have 35 minutes to conclude.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, I'm afraid we have to move
20 into private session.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 17550-17553 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Well, perhaps I am mistaken here, but maybe not. Anyway, was the
12 car returned to you? The other items were given back to you, but the car
13 that was found in that yard, was that returned?
14 A. Well, the car that was found in the yard was not returned to me,
15 and it wasn't even my car. As for my own car, it was returned, and they
16 had difficulty locating where the car actually was, because it was not on
17 the premises of Bijeljina MUP.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, let's move on to the arrest itself, and let's
19 deal with that topic. Now, do you recall that before the arrest in
20 Zvornik, the unit of Mico Davidovic's, which had come as -- for -- as
21 support, as a support unit, after my address to Panic and then --
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Sorry to interrupt, but I'm fairly certain that the
24 arrest is also a matter covered in private session. I don't think the
25 preliminary matters Mr. Karadzic has addressed have created any problem,
1 but if he's moving on to the arrest itself, that's where we'll be.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for your warning. Yes. Back to you,
3 Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies. Well, as 170 persons
5 were arrested, I thought this could not really help anyone identify any
6 of those.
7 JUDGE KWON: No. What matters is whether it was in private
8 session in the previous proceedings. That's the practice we are taking
9 at this moment.
10 MR. TIEGER: And, of course, ultimately the issue is going to
11 involve this witness, and he'll be moving toward his own involvement, and
12 it will narrow that field.
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Shall we go into private session? Yes.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 17556-17569 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, that will be admitted as
1 Exhibit D1638.
2 Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat what you said?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for five minutes
4 for myself. If you can go on without me, then that would be fine.
5 Otherwise, let us take a five-minute break so that I could refresh
6 myself, because I'm quite exhausted.
7 MR. TIEGER: Either way is -- well, not either way is fine --
9 JUDGE KWON: It's more prudent to take a break for five minutes.
10 We'll break for five minutes.
11 --- Break taken at 1.26 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President, and I will also endeavour
15 to be as efficient as possible with the very few questions and documents
16 I'd like to put to the witness.
17 JUDGE KWON: But for your information, Ms. Elliott, I wonder if
18 there's a point of continuing with the next witness --
19 MR. TIEGER: I -- I --
20 JUDGE KWON: -- given the time.
21 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I think we're probably at that point,
22 Your Honour, and we were having the same discussion here as well.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 MR. TIEGER: I think I need to move into private session for this
25 first question.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 [Private session]
11 Page 17573 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd next like to ask you about a matter that was
11 raised earlier today and that referred back to something that you said
12 yesterday as well. That was at page 18 today. And there were several
13 questions in connection with this, I believe, but Mr. Karadzic asked you
14 about access to MUP weapons, which ethnic group had weapons and was
15 displaying weapons and so forth. For example, at page 18, yesterday --
16 the question was:
17 "Yesterday, you mentioned that the Muslims took all the weapons
18 from the depot that belonged to the police," and asked whether that meant
19 that the Muslims had MUP weapons in their hands and only later the Serbs
20 managed to take control of the TO depot.
21 I'd like to quickly show you 65 ter 00654.
22 And I would ask to direct the witness's attention -- it might be
23 helpful to show the next page first, just indicate what that is for the
24 witness, in both English and B/C/S, and then again the next page after
1 So this is a MUP document from Zvornik, Mr. Witness, outlining
2 some work activities and some retrospective information from 1992 as
4 And if we could turn to page 20 in e-court of the English and
5 page 17 of the B/C/S. And if I could ask you to look at the middle of
6 the page in B/C/S. And it should be, I believe, toward the bottom of the
7 page in English where the report indicates that working on various
8 check-points during the months of January and February. Again, this is -
9 if we could look toward the top of the page - referring back to 1992.
10 Police personnel of Serb nationality enabled the transport of
11 weapons, ammunition, and other materiel and technical equipment necessary
12 for the arming of the Serb people in the territory of this municipality.
13 First, Mr. Witness, let me just ask you, very specifically,
14 whether you were aware of activity by Serbian members of the MUP to
15 ensure that members of the Serb community were armed prior to the
16 outbreak of the conflict.
17 A. All I can say in relation to the operation of the Zvornik public
18 security station in that period is that it was not the Serbian policemen
19 who took weapons from the MUP in Zvornik, but it was the Muslims who
20 controlled the situation. There were more of them at the station, and
21 they were in charge of the whole management.
22 As far as I know, the arming in that period was assisted by the
23 policemen but in such a way that they were able to load it from
24 Mali Zvornik and transfer it to the other side. However, what they
25 exactly did in that respect, I don't know.
1 As for the weapons that remained in MUP, the Muslims took and
2 distributed amongst themselves. The Serbian policemen were checking the
3 bridges and everything, which enabled the transfer from the depot in
4 Mali Zvornik to Karakaj.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
6 MR. TIEGER: I tender that document, Mr. President.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE KWON: He didn't confirm anything, and then he just put
9 specific part of almost 60-page document. What is the point of admitting
10 this through this witness, Mr. Tieger?
11 But I note the time. I'm very much concerned about time. You
12 will have another opportunity to tender this one.
13 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think -- first of all, I think there was
14 confirmation the arming in that period was assisted by the policemen.
15 Second, there's no dispute about the authenticity and relevance of this
16 document. I have been extremely liberal with Mr. Robinson and
17 Mr. Karadzic in their use of documents in a similar manner. I didn't
18 expect that a document that's clearly relevant to this issue --
19 JUDGE KWON: You have more questions, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: I don't. That was my last question, Your Honour. I
21 do tender this document again, however.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, what did you want to say?
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We don't -- there's two
24 issues. This paragraph, whether that should be admitted, you can decide
25 that, but a 60-page document shouldn't be admitted simply because one
1 paragraph has been referred to. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, are you happy with admitting this page
3 and the cover page, probably?
4 MR. TIEGER: Well, I don't accept that as a general proposition.
5 I think we haven't been doing that, but under the circumstances and in
6 light of the time, I realise that's a way to move us forward at the
7 moment and I'll accept that.
8 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber appreciates your understanding.
9 The two pages will be admitted as Exhibit P3183.
10 Sir, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the Chamber and
11 the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to
12 The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
13 We'll rise altogether, and have a nice weekend.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day
17 of August, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.