Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17578

 1                           Monday, 22 August 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Good afternoon, everyone.  Is there anything

 6     to be raised before we hear evidence?

 7             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Good afternoon.  This relates

 9     to the next witness and the protective measures which are to be granted

10     to the witness, and I would like to make my remarks in public session and

11     I'll keep them general because it's a matter of a principle as opposed to

12     something that will reveal the identity of the witness.

13             So, first of all, we want to again reiterate that we object to

14     closed-session testimony in this trial unless it's absolutely necessary.

15     And we note that in this case the witness had testified in the first

16     trial here at the Tribunal without closed session, and so we think that

17     he ought to be, at the minimum, asked whether or not his subsequent

18     requesting of a closed session was generic to the particular case that he

19     was testifying in and whether he needs to have the testimony in this case

20     in closed session where there's an absolute record of no problem that any

21     of our witnesses who've testified in this case have had.  We think the

22     Chamber ought to make as many efforts as possible to have this testimony

23     heard in public --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Robinson.  You knew from the

25     beginning that this witness is given the protection of closed session a

Page 17579

 1     while ago.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Is this something we should spend time, precious

 4     time, court time?  Could it not have been -- have been raised in writing

 5     in advance?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Every time we've raised something like this

 7     in writing, however, you've declined to inquire as to the witness, so we

 8     decided that it's better to just ask you before the witness comes in

 9     rather than starting a motion with an answer and a written decision,

10     because you've, in the past and as recently as last week, declined to

11     inquire of the witnesses whether or not the protective measures that they

12     have in place should be continued.  And I'm referring to your decision on

13     protective measures for KDZ-601 and 605, which I believe was issued on

14     the 18th of August.  So we didn't believe that it would be a good idea to

15     raise the same issue in writing, but nevertheless, I apologise for taking

16     your time, but I think it's an important principle that we would like to

17     maintain each time a witness comes here.

18             I also wanted to point out to the Chamber that if you Google the

19     name of this witness, you'll find newspaper articles about the very same

20     thing that he's going to testify about, and so to us these protective

21     measures seem really unnecessary.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Elliott, would you like to respond?

24             MS. ELLIOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.  As the Court has noted, the

25     details surrounding this witness's protective measures were contained in

Page 17580

 1     the 4th of July notification.  And unless the Court wants me to, I won't

 2     bother revisiting the circumstances surrounding these protective

 3     measures, but this Trial Chamber has repeatedly held and most notably on

 4     the 14th of September, 2010, decision, that it doesn't need to hear

 5     personally from a witness when considering a request to modify or rescind

 6     existing protective measures where certain circumstances exist, and they

 7     existed here.  So I submit it's unnecessary to hear from this witness

 8     regarding his protective measure status.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber sees no reason to -- to vary the

12     protective measures allowed to the witness by the previous Chambers.

13             Yes, Ms. Elliott.  Shall we go into private session to bring in

14     the witness?

15             MS. ELLIOTT:  Just one matter, Your Honour.  It relates to

16     Exhibit D1585.  And a revised translation was ordered for this exhibit on

17     the 19th of July, 2011, and that's been received and has now been

18     uploaded in e-court.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Unless there's anything, we'll go into

20     private session -- I'm sorry, closed session.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17581











11  Pages 17581-17633 redacted. Closed session.















Page 17634

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.  If you could take the solemn

21     declaration, please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  MUSAN TALOVIC

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 17635

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 2             Ms. Edgerton, before you begin, I wanted to tell you that we'll

 3     have another break, a last break for the day at 10 to 6.00 for 20

 4     minutes.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you hear me in a language you understand?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Then could you give us your full name.

12        A.   Musan Talovic.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Talovic, if you could look at me.  Thank

14     you.  Mr. Talovic, do you remember 11 years ago in June of 2000 and then

15     again in 2002 giving statements to investigators from the Office of the

16     Prosecutor for this Tribunal?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   And those statements were about what happened to you in Glogova

19     in May of 1992; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And then do you remember in 2004 giving a statement to the

22     cantonal prosecutor's office in Tuzla about the same thing?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, in July of this year, 2011, in Sarajevo, do you remember

25     signing another statement putting all those earlier statements together

Page 17636

 1     into one document?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And did you look at that statement from 2011 before you came to

 4     testify here today?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you noticed a problem with the handwritten date on the first

 7     page, didn't you?  It says 2001, doesn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.  I should have added another 1 there, yes.  I did it

 9     personally.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

11     be asked to speak into the microphone.  Thank you.

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Talovic, when you answer my questions and

14     Dr. Karadzic's later on, you are going to have to lean forward a little

15     bit more than you are and speak into the microphones with the red lights

16     on, in front of you, okay?  Great.  Thank you.

17             Now, Mr. Talovic, other than that little correction, are you

18     satisfied that the statement you signed in July of 2011 is accurate as

19     far as you can remember?

20        A.   Yes, it is accurate.

21        Q.   Now, if you were asked the same questions that you were asked in

22     2000, 2002, 2004, and July of this year, would you give the same answers?

23        A.   The same, all of it.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, then, Your Honours, could I offer the -- or

25     tender the amalgamated statement of Mr. Talovic, 65 ter 90261, as the

Page 17637

 1     next Prosecution exhibit, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3188, Your Honours.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  I'll now read a summary of that

 5     written evidence.

 6             Up until 9 May 1992, Musan Talovic had lived his whole life in

 7     the village of Glogova in the municipality of Bratunac.  In April 1992,

 8     tensions in the area rose.  The witness recalls the police was divided

 9     into Serb and Muslim sections.

10             And April 1st, Serb police went through the area, calling for

11     people to surrender their weapons at the Bratunac municipality building.

12             On April 3rd, villagers from nearby Hranca fled to Glogova

13     reporting that local Chetniks were burning houses and killing people.

14             Early in the morning of 9 May, Mr. Talovic woke to find haystacks

15     burning around the village and soldiers coming toward them.  Muslim men

16     from the area gathered at his house and tried to hide near a creek close

17     by.  They were found by armed Serbs in uniform, one of whom the witness

18     recognised.  Their captors directed the prisoners at gunpoint to the

19     supermarket in the village centre.  The witness saw numbers of Serb

20     soldiers gathered nearby.  Eventually Najdan Mladjenovic arrived.  He

21     directed three of the Muslim prisoners into his car.  The witness then

22     heard Mladjenovic issue orders to get on with the job and kill the rest.

23     Four of the soldiers came forward armed with automatic weapons.  They

24     took the remaining 20 men, including the witness, to the riverbank where

25     they were ordered to line up and face the river.  The soldiers opened

Page 17638

 1     fire on the group.  The witness hit the water and lost consciousness.  He

 2     woke hours later 10 metres downstream under a tree and two dead bodies.

 3     He recognised the bodies.  They were his neighbours.  The witness found

 4     only one survivor to the shooting who had been wounded trying to escape.

 5     The rest of the prisoners were killed.  In the village, Mr. Talovic saw

 6     houses burning and found the bodies of more neighbours who had also been

 7     killed that day.  Altogether, there was a total of 68 victims of the Serb

 8     attack.

 9             That night the witness and other survives of the attack decided

10     to leave the village of Glogova.  One group made their way to

11     Konjevic Polje, another to Srebrenica.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Talovic, I just have a few clarifying questions about

13     the written evidence that I've just read a summary of.  First of all, in

14     that written evidence in paragraph 8, you mention that Miroslav Deronjic

15     was the main person on the Serbian Crisis Staff.  How did you know that?

16        A.   Because Selim Delic and Nesib Besovic [phoen] went to negotiate

17     in Bratunac and they returned and told us that Miomir Nikolic and

18     Miroslav Deronjic were the main people on that Crisis Staff of the SDS of

19     the Serb Republic in Bratunac.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Talovic, on the 9th of May, did you see any

21     military vehicles in Glogova?

22        A.   I saw a APC and a tank in the centre of Glogova when we were

23     brought there.

24        Q.   Were there any personnel manning those pieces of military

25     equipment?

Page 17639

 1        A.   Three or four men were on the APC.  They were armed with a PAM

 2     and a machine-gun and a tank - you know what that is - and there were

 3     other soldiers accompanying them.

 4        Q.   How were they dressed?

 5        A.   Military uniforms, olive-green/grey.

 6        Q.   Could you tell us what you mean when you describe a PAM?

 7        A.   Well, that's what is mounted on an APC, and it turns around, and

 8     I think it has these big bullets, and they kept twirling it around and

 9     scaring us.

10        Q.   Did you see any markings of any kind on the transporter or the

11     tank?

12        A.   JNA.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now to move on, in paragraph 31 of your statement,

14     you describe how Mustafa Golic, Sejid Ibisevic, and Almaz Talovic were

15     taken away in Najdan Mladjenovic's car, but later on, in paragraphs 39

16     and 40, you describe how you met with Golic again and what he told you.

17     So I'd like to know after they were taken away did you ever see Ibisevic

18     and Talovic again?

19        A.   Talovic is my cousin and Sejid is a neighbour.  They were killed

20     that same night.  And Mustafa Golic is alive to this day.  He survived.

21     He managed to run away.  How he managed to do that, that is what he

22     knows.  From the school of Vuk Karadzic, that is.

23        Q.   How do you know that Sejid Ibisevic and Almaz Talovic were killed

24     the same night?

25        A.   Well, because these neighbours when we met up later on, they said

Page 17640

 1     they were buried in Voljevica.  The graves are there, and they know to

 2     this day who found them and who buried them.  And this is my very own

 3     cousin.  I asked about him.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, to move on, in paragraph 35 of your statement,

 5     you list a number of names, including yourself, of men who you say were

 6     lined up with you at the edge of the river.  Now, apart from yourself and

 7     the three men who you said were taken away by car whose names also appear

 8     in that list and Seco Delic, who you refer to later in your statement, to

 9     your knowledge did any of these men in that list at paragraph 35 survive

10     this shooting?

11        A.   None of them survived excepted myself and Seco Delic, who was

12     later killed by a shell.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

14     sentence.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   Could you just repeat the end of your sentence that you've just

17     given, the answer where you said Seco Delic was killed by a shell.  The

18     interpreter didn't hear you.

19        A.   It was later, five or six or seven months later.  Seco was just

20     wounded.  He survived.

21        Q.   Among the victims, among the group that was with you and shot on

22     the side of the riverbank, were there any children?

23        A.   Hajrem [phoen] Ibisevic was 11 and Mujo Ibisevic was 13.  The

24     rest were 18, 20, young men.

25        Q.   Now, to your knowledge, up until this time, till the 9th of May,

Page 17641

 1     had any of these victims been involved in any kind of military activity

 2     whatsoever?

 3        A.   None of them ever.  They never participated in any such thing or

 4     did they have any need to.

 5        Q.   Now, later on in your statement you give another list of names at

 6     paragraph 38 where you describe how after the shooting you saw the bodies

 7     of killed persons from your village which had been piled in two

 8     locations.  There are 24 people listed there.

 9             Now, can you just clarify because it's not perfectly clear in

10     your statement, are those 24 people the names of some of the villagers

11     you saw who had been killed and whose bodies had been piled up?

12        A.   All of them are neighbours, all of these men there.

13        Q.   Were they all men, those 24 who you saw?

14        A.   All of them except Banovka and Adem.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

16     sentence.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Could you just repeat your sentence.  You said "All of them

19     except Banovka and Adem," what?

20        A.   Junuzovic.

21        Q.   And who was Adem Junuzovic?

22        A.   Banovka's husband.

23        Q.   And can I just -- I'll go back to line 11 at page 63 and correct

24     myself.  You saw actually far more than 24 bodies, didn't you?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 17642

 1        Q.   Now, just another question about these lists at paragraph 35 and

 2     paragraph 38.  The name Selmo Omerovic -- pardon me the name

 3     Selmo Omerovic appears on both lists.  How could that be?

 4        A.   Selmo Omerovic, father's name Hakija; Selmo Omerovic, father's

 5     name Adem.  These are two different men, that's true.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now on this list in paragraph 38, I saw the name

 7     Uzeir Talovic.  Is he any relation to you?

 8        A.   That's my father's side of the family, children of my uncle.

 9        Q.   And one last question:  How did this experience, even though it's

10     many years after the fact -- how did this experience of being shot down

11     and then surviving affect you?

12        A.   My neighbours and my family know better than anyone else.  I

13     wouldn't wish it on anyone else.  It was very difficult.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't have any other questions, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.  I take it there's no

16     associate exhibit for this witness.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Talovic, you will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic on -- by

20     way of his cross-examination.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Talovic.

25        A.   Good afternoon.

Page 17643

 1        Q.   You were the president of Glogova local commune.  When was that?

 2        A.   I was the president of the chapter in 1998 -- sorry, 1988, 1989,

 3     1990, and 1991, and my tenure in office somehow came to an end at that

 4     time.

 5        Q.   So were you the president of the local commune in 1991?

 6        A.   I was.

 7        Q.   Please, both of us have to wait for the interpretation to finish,

 8     otherwise we won't be heard by the interpreters.

 9             In your 2000 statement, which is 1D4078, on page 2 you say that

10     in early 1992, tensions rose between ethnic groups, and you added that

11     you remember when Bosnia separated from Yugoslavia, the life changed; is

12     that correct?

13        A.   No, it's not.

14        Q.   Well, I'm going to read it in English:

15             [In English] "In early 1992, we could feel changes and tensions

16     between the ethnic groups.  I remember that when Bosnia separated from

17     Yugoslavia, life changed."

18             [No interpretation]

19        A.   That's not what I said.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We didn't hear the translation of

21     what you said after citing the passage in his written statement.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's why I asked the witness to

23     wait for the translation.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   If you look at the transcript, when it stops you will know when

Page 17644

 1     the translation is over.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  If you switch from English to B/C/S, you should wait

 3     yourself for some time.

 4             Yes.  Could you repeat your question, the last part of your

 5     question.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   My question was:  Are you establishing a connection between the

 9     tensions and the separation of Bosnia from Yugoslavia?  Do you think that

10     there is a link between the ethnic tensions and the secession?  Would you

11     believe that the situation would have been different, that there were

12     no -- would have been no tensions had there been no separation?

13        A.   I was not involved in separation at all, so I don't know.

14        Q.   But you did say this, didn't you?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Now could you answer the question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't separate anything, neither

17     Yugoslavia nor Bosnia.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, I am not attacking you in any way whatsoever.  You

20     said that tensions occurred in early 1992.  I'm asking you whether the

21     reason for that was the secession or something else.

22        A.   You know that better than I do.

23        Q.   You say that in April the army came to Bratunac and tried to

24     seize the draft records from the municipal building, from the draft

25     office.  As a result, people gathered in front of the municipal building,

Page 17645

 1     you were there, and the army was prevented from taking these records; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Did the army try to do something illegal, or was it their legal

 5     duty and obligation to take hold of draft records?

 6        A.   I don't know about that.

 7        Q.   But this did not take place in April.  That was on the 30th of

 8     August, 1991; correct?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Well, I'm going to tell you how it all happened.  A military unit

11     arrives on the 31st of August, 1991, in order to take over the records in

12     order to be able to call up the conscripts.  The Muslim crowd gets

13     together in order to try and prevent them from doing so, but the police

14     prevented any major riots.  Do you agree?

15        A.   No, I don't.

16        Q.   How was it then?

17        A.   Well, they wanted to take all these record cards, although the

18     majority -- the minority of officers were Muslims.  They could have used

19     those cards for later purposes of killing them.

20        Q.   Are you saying and alleging then that on the 30th of August, the

21     JNA wanted to get hold of draft records in order to kill the prominent

22     Muslims?  Is that what you're claiming?

23        A.   I'm not claiming anything of the sort.  I experienced that.

24        Q.   On that same occasion, a large group of Muslims gathered around

25     the municipal building and prevented the army from doing that, whereas a

Page 17646

 1     group of extremists were breaking things around the town and shooting at

 2     the police station; is that correct?

 3        A.   I don't know if that's correct.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Talovic, could I remind you again that it's

 5     necessary for the benefit of the Chamber and others who follow the

 6     interpretation for you to put a pause before you start answering the

 7     question, please.

 8             And, Mr. Karadzic, what occasion are we talking about now?  Is

 9     it -- we are talking about April or August?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This event happened on the 30th of

11     August, two or three days after Mr. Izetbegovic withdrew his support of a

12     historic agreement.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, in his amalgamated statement, para 12

14     he's specifically referring to early 1992, and he said on April 1992.

15     Then you have to explore with the witness first whether it's August or

16     April, and then you should proceed.  You should not take it for granted

17     that it should have taken place in August.

18             Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  I was about to make the point that August is only

20     on the basis of evidence Dr. Karadzic has just given and nothing else.

21     That wasn't what the witness had said.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I know when this happened exactly,

25     and we are going to present very strong documents in support of that, but

Page 17647

 1     I'm eager to hear what the witness has to say, and I'm putting to him

 2     proposition made by the Defence.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, in September 1991, was the flag of the SDS put on

 5     fire in Bratunac?  Do you recall that?

 6        A.   No, not at all.

 7        Q.   All right.  In that same month of September, the Serbs in Kravica

 8     were threatened and told that their houses would be set alight.  Do you

 9     recall that?

10        A.   No, I don't.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In the autumn of 1991, armed Muslims erected

12     roadblocks in your village of Glogova as well as in Sandici.  Do you

13     remember those roadblocks?

14        A.   Yes, I do remember roadblocks put up by the Serbs.

15        Q.   You don't remember Muslim roadblocks?

16        A.   No.  Those were definitely Serb roadblocks erected at the exit

17     point from Kravica towards Sandici and on the other exit towards Repovac.

18        Q.   Can we please have 65 ter 30180 in e-court.  While we're waiting,

19     do you remember that by the end of August there was debate and discussion

20     about a historic Serbian Muslim agreement that envisaged Bosnia remaining

21     in Yugoslavia and the Serbs renouncing the idea of autonomous regions,

22     et cetera?

23        A.   I don't recall any of that.  I was more concerned how to get

24     firewood and things like that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Look at this document.  This is a discussion between

Page 17648

 1     myself and the then member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 2     Professor Nikola Koljevic.  This is September 1991, three or four days

 3     after Izetbegovic's withdrawal from the agreement.  But if you don't know

 4     anything about that, we're not going to address this issue.  Can we have

 5     the next page, please.  I'm going to read this in Serbia.  Koljevic and I

 6     are talking, and the subject is the barricades, and Koljevic asks me:

 7             "Tell me, what happened in Han Pijesak?  Are those people alive?

 8             "Karadzic:  They are, they are.  One was wounded in the hand, one

 9     in the leg.  There are wounded near Bratunac.  There are some barricades.

10             "Koljevic:  Mm-hmm near Bratunac.

11             "Karadzic:  Yes, and then ours put up barricades at Han Pijesak

12     and made a huge queue.

13             "Koljevic:  Yes.

14             "Karadzic:  And then I could go up there, but I found -- I tried

15     to find a solution.  I found a solution and they made a leaflet and said

16     that this barricade was a warning to the authorities of BH because of the

17     lawlessness that was being tolerated.  This should be given to every

18     driver who passed by the barricade as a condition for going through.  So

19     it was treated as a warning and not as a bandit-like thing or something,

20     you know.

21             "Koljevic:  Yes, yes, yes.

22             "Karadzic:  Today, we will clear things with them.  I think we

23     have to tell Izetbegovic today that the Muslims already hit the Serbs at

24     several places."

25             And you believe that there were no Muslim erected barricades,

Page 17649

 1     whereas this conversation clearly indicates that the Muslims opened fire

 2     and that the Serbs responded by erecting barricades in Han Pijesak.

 3        A.   This is all news to me.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be marked for

 6     identification as is the standard practice?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm not sure on what basis at all this can be

 9     marked for identification.  Is Dr. Karadzic putting it forward on the

10     basis that it's authentic, because the witness didn't confirm one single

11     thing about any aspect of this conversation.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Whether it may be contextually relevant as to his

13     reference to barricade.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't think there's enough there, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to respond, Mr. Karadzic, or

16     Mr. Robinson?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly.  I would like this to

18     be a factual basis, but maybe Mr. Robinson has some procedural matters.

19             As far as the facts are concerned, the tensions did not happen in

20     April 1992, but, rather, the Muslim majority was terrorising Serbs as of

21     September 1991.  And this conversation demonstrates that we were intent

22     on telling Izetbegovic that this lawlessness against Serbs must stop.

23     That was the basis for my proposal to have this marked for identification

24     simply because this is the way I treat intercepts as such, but if

25     Mr. Robinson feels that he could add something to this, let's hear him.

Page 17650

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  If -- if I may.  Dr. Karadzic has made the context

 2     abundantly clear now, so I would withdraw any concern I might have had.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1642, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  MFI.

 7             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 3189, two days

 9     later.  30189.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So this is the second half that you are aware of.  This is a

12     conversation between Momcilo Krajisnik and the man called Trifko, who is

13     on duty at the party headquarters.  He's asking whether Mr. Krajisnik as

14     the president of the Assembly was aware of the problems in Bratunac.

15             Krajisnik says:

16             "Tell me, what it is?"

17             And Trifko says:

18             "Well, it's war, brother.  Two Muslims have already been killed.

19     Everybody is on the run" --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please indicate where he's

21     reading from.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Where are you reading from?

23             THE ACCUSED:  Fourth stance from the beginning.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you start again.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17651

 1        Q.   "War, my brother.  Two Muslims already got killed.  Well,

 2     everybody is up in arms.  Two got killed, two are wounded.  Barricades

 3     were put up by the village of Kravica.  These are on the move.  It is

 4     this conflict that is happening in B probably."  He means Bratunac.

 5             And then Krajisnik is then asking him:  "How was it?  Do you

 6     know?"

 7             And then he then explains.  Please look at it.  He says that one

 8     of the Muslims was questioned and then set free.

 9             So there was an attempt on the life of Radojlub Djukanovic, the

10     President of the Executive board, a Serb.  Do you remember that?

11        A.   No, I don't.

12        Q.   The assassin was arrested and immediately released, and Trifko is

13     confirming that by saying, yes, yes.  You don't remember any attempted

14     assassination?

15        A.   This is news.

16        Q.   All right.  Then the group of Muslims set out towards Kravica and

17     then Kravica put up barricades; correct?

18        A.   Not correct.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can it be admitted on

20     the same basis?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from you, Ms. Edgerton, again.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  On this one, no, Your Honour.  We -- there --

23     there is no context.  While I understand the principle that this could

24     have been tendered as an impeachment document, Dr. Karadzic hasn't, in

25     fact, done that at all.  He's just read this to the witness and asked the

Page 17652

 1     witness confirm anything about it that the witness has absolutely no

 2     inkling about.  So, no, not this time, I would think.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we find no basis to admit this

 4     document or even for the purpose of marking for identification through

 5     this witness.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, Excellency, because I'm

 7     not the interlocutor, so I can agree with you on that.  Can we have a

 8     look at 65 ter 30186.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a conversation on the 4th of September between

11     Zvonko Bajgic from Vlasenica and myself.  So it is the fifth or sixth

12     line from above.  Bajgic is saying:  "I don't know whether you've been on

13     top of things since Friday."  Karadzic says:  "I know that they shot at

14     the president of the Executive Council.  That fellow was arrested and

15     then released."  And he says:  "Yes."  And I say:  "Then Muslims were

16     headed to Kravica village.  Was their intention to attack or what?"

17             Can we have the next page, please.

18             Bajgic says:  "After Friday, the SUP deployed, police in those

19     villages, on those hot spots.  So only Serbs were deployed in Kravica."

20     Karadzic says:  "Yes."  Bajgic says:  "Because that is what they

21     demanded.  The patrols consisting of both Serbs and Muslims were in

22     Konjevic Polje and in that place over there in Lolici."

23             And a bit further down it says:  "After the firing at the

24     president of the Executive Council," and Karadzic says:  "All right."

25     That was a pretext for that.  They informed you about that, and Karadzic

Page 17653

 1     says:  "Two men were wounded.  All right."  And Bajgic says:  "Then,

 2     after that wounding, this assassination was -- there was an assassination

 3     attempt."  And Karadzic says:  "And were Serbs wounded?"  And Bajgic

 4     says:  "And listen, to keep you abreast of things, you note that an

 5     attempt was made to kill him but they did not kill him."  I don't have

 6     time to put entire conversation to you, but this was a crisis, a huge

 7     crisis, and the MUP patrolled hot spots and you don't know anything about

 8     that?

 9        A.   No, nothing.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know how we should treat

12     this, Excellencies.  Believe me, I would have this admitted, because it

13     directly states that the tensions started earlier on -- or, rather, not

14     tensions, a small-scale war, a local war among the local people.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could you be more specific how this is related to

16     the evidence of this witness?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, what happened to this witness

18     happened on the 9th of May, but the tensions did not start in April.  The

19     tensions started in September, at least.  There was gunfire, there were

20     barricades, and all of that had to be calmed down.  This was a

21     preparation for what happened.  This was a local development.  It was not

22     ordered from headquarters.  That is the essence of what I've been saying.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from you again, Ms. Edgerton?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  It may be relevant to events in Bratunac generally

25     and aspects of the police forces, and on that basis I would have no

Page 17654

 1     objection.  It may be of some contextual assistance otherwise, but it's

 2     certainly not relevant to this witness's evidence.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will receive it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D1643, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We will have a break for 20 minutes.  We will resume

 7     at 12 past 6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.53 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Talovic, was your village of Glogova armed before the war?

14        A.   No, never.

15        Q.   In your statement of 2000, that's 1D4078, on page 2, you said --

16     I have to read it out in English so that it would be translated more

17     accurately:

18             [In English] "Starting from the 1st of April, 1992, Serb police

19     were walking around Bratunac and villages, including Glogova.  They had

20     loudspeakers, and they were asking people to surrender their weapons.

21     They also promise that had if we give our weapons, nothing bad is going

22     to happen to us."

23             [Interpretation] So did the Serb police ask for weapons to be

24     surrendered, and what was surrendered in Glogova?

25        A.   Yes.  They asked for the hunting guns that people had, along with

Page 17655

 1     permits.

 2        Q.   Ah-ha.  So what do we call this?  There weren't automatic weapons

 3     that were being distributed by the SDA and other activists?

 4        A.   I don't know.  That is your information.  That never happened in

 5     Glogova.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In that same statement on page 2 you say -- again,

 7     I'm going to read it out in English so it will be translated correctly:

 8             [In English] "I had a hunting rifle that I gave away at the

 9     municipality building.  I had my pistol with me as well, but they did not

10     want to take it from me.  They gave me a receipt for my rifle."

11        A.   That's correct.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just for the record, I note it's identical to para

13     13 of his amalgamated statement.

14             Yes, Mr. Talovic.  You said -- or you answered already, that's

15     correct.  Yes, I'm sorry.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the Trial Chamber

18     and the Office of the Prosecutor.  Right now there are going to be some

19     very short witnesses.  I confused this witness with the previous witness,

20     so this is the witness who had a pistol.  So would you please accept

21     that.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   So there were guards, guards in Muslim villages were Muslims and

24     in Serb villages they were Serbs, and there were night guards; right?

25        A.   No.

Page 17656

 1        Q.   There were no guards in villages?

 2        A.   The Serb police guaranteed our safety and security if we handed

 3     over the hunting weapons, as I've already explained, that we had, along

 4     with permits, and we had no need to organise guard duty.

 5        Q.   In that same statement -- no.  Yes.  On page 2 of that same

 6     statement, you say:

 7             [In English] "I know that the SDA won the majority of seats in

 8     Bratunac.  I also remember that Nijaz Dubisic, SDA, became the president

 9     of municipality.  The president of the SDS was Miroslav Deronjic.

10             "A man called Sreten Radic was a member of the SDS.  He was very

11     active, and he had some high rank in position of SDS.

12             "I do not know who was the chief of police, but I know that

13     police was divided to Serb and Muslim section.  That started to happen in

14     April.  We did not have police station in Glogova at all, so all that

15     happened in Bratunac."

16             [Interpretation] Do you agree that Serbs and Muslims were

17     together in the police until April and that the chief was a Muslim and

18     that a Serb was appointed quite late and that this was accompanied with

19     lots of quarreling?

20        A.   You know what it was like.  I was not a politician.  The Muslim

21     policemen left Bratunac.  They weren't at the station there at all.

22        Q.   Do you agree that even when they divided the police, the Serbs

23     and Muslims remained in the same building but on different floors, and

24     they reached agreement, namely that Serbs would work in Serb villages and

25     Muslims in the Muslim villages but they lived and worked in the same

Page 17657

 1     building?

 2        A.   I have no idea whatsoever about the police.

 3        Q.   But over here you did mention that it had been divided.  Can we

 4     have a look at 65 ter number 603, 603, page 17 in English, and 13 in

 5     Serbian.

 6             The English seems to be all right.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  The Serbian one is still upside down though.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is the 23rd of December, 1991, whereas in Serbian we need

10     the 9th of April, 1992.  And I'm going to read it out in -- it's the same

11     collection of minutes.  We'll find it.  It's page 17 in Serbian as well.

12             Mr. Witness, if this is enlarged a bit, can you see that on the

13     agenda is:

14             "The analysis of the past negotiations with Muslims regarding the

15     division of power within the Bratunac municipality, duration of the

16     process and the setting up of the Serbian police force"?

17             Do you remember that an agreement was reached to constitute two

18     municipality in Bratunac, one Muslim and the other Serbian, and that even

19     there were congratulations exchanged, and that Mrs. Subic, the president

20     of the Socialist Party, attacked Izetbegovic after that for going back or

21     canceling this agreement?  Don't you know that there was an agreement

22     reached in Bratunac?

23        A.   No, I don't.

24        Q.   Very well.  In that case, apparently I shouldn't tender this into

25     evidence, but if an agreement was reached, would you agree that that was

Page 17658

 1     a good starting point for solving the crisis in a peaceful way, that a

 2     division was signed and in place, that people -- Muslims went to their

 3     communities and Serbs went to their communities, and they would share the

 4     same [indiscernible].

 5        A.   But why were you beating me then?

 6        Q.   Well, I can only regret what happened to you, Mr. Witness, but

 7     one can see that there was bad blood between you starting from August

 8     already, and it has nothing to do with me.

 9             I'm asking you if the municipality was divided into two

10     municipalities, would that solve a problem?

11        A.   The problem wouldn't be solved in any way, because people had no

12     weapons, and this is what you, Karadzic, brought upon my head.

13        Q.   Let's look what you also said in your 2000 statement, which is

14     4078, page 3.

15             [In English] "I was present when this man called Milutin said

16     that they are going to collect weapons from the nearby Serb village

17     called Gornji Magasici as well.  Later on, we found out that it did not

18     happen."

19             MS. EDGERTON:  That's paragraph 14 of the witness's amalgamated

20     statement, P3188.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would never attack my

22     learned friend, Ms. Edgerton, but the truth is that we are receiving the

23     signed amalgamated statements at the 11th hour, although we do receive

24     drafts somewhat earlier.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17659

 1        Q.   How do you know that the Serbs were not disarmed, and how do you

 2     know that had the events not been so rapid what their intentions were?

 3        A.   I don't understand.

 4        Q.   You say that you know that Magasici hadn't been armed.  How do

 5     you know that?

 6        A.   Because they were shooting at us.

 7        Q.   Then you say on the same page:

 8             [In English] "The collection was completed by the evening of that

 9     day.  They advised villagers to continue with their everyday activities

10     without any fear because we already surrendered our weapons."

11             [Interpretation] Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Witness, do you know that on the 20th of April,

14     Naser Oric sent up an ambush for the Serbian reservists and that 20

15     volunteers were killed on that occasion, their bodies thrown into the

16     river.  Do you recall that incident?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Do you remember an event in Hranca on page 3 of this same

19     statement, 1D4078, but maybe inadvertently you gave the wrong date and

20     you said 3rd of April instead of the 3rd of May.  Do you agree that it

21     could have been on the 3rd of May?

22        A.   Yes.  What I said in my statement about Sacir and his son did

23     happen on the 3rd of May.  And on the 6th of April -- no, sorry.  On the

24     6th of May, Hranca was completely cleansed.

25        Q.   I am a bit perplexed, Mr. Talovic.  On the 3rd of April, Bosnia

Page 17660

 1     and Herzegovina was still in existence.  There was joint Presidency and

 2     the authorities.  How come that nobody was informed about this attack on

 3     Hranca on the 3rd of April?  Maybe it did happen on the 3rd of May

 4     though.

 5        A.   I don't know all I know that it happened and that Hranca was

 6     completely cleansed on the 6th and Glogova on the 9th.

 7        Q.   April or May?

 8        A.   The 9th of May.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that there was no conflict in Glogova on

10     the 9th of April and, rather, on the 9th of May, and you corrected that

11     in your 2000 statement?

12        A.   I didn't correct anything.  The truth is that it did happen on

13     the 9th of May.

14        Q.   Very well.  Let us now look at a video-clip, 1D4079.  Can we look

15     at this video-clip, please, 1D4079.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Is this the village of Hranca?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   On that day, was there an attack on a JNA column that was

21     withdrawing from Sarajevo and that 12 men were killed on that occasion?

22        A.   I don't know anything about that.

23        Q.   You know that some people fled Hranca, but you don't know what

24     they fled from and why they fled, and you don't know that a JNA column

25     was attacked while retreating and that 12 people were killed?  Are you

Page 17661

 1     telling me that you don't know anything about that and that those people

 2     who came told you nothing about that?

 3        A.   It is not true that anyone was killed by the Muslims from Hranca,

 4     any members of any ethnic community.

 5        Q.   Can we now look at another video which is 1D4080.  Were there any

 6     Serbs in Hranca?

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbian part of Hranca is next

 9     to Glogova, 2 kilometres, and next to it is the Muslim part of Hranca.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Let's look how -- look at the Serbian houses in Hranca.  Were

12     these Serbian houses destroyed by the JNA or the local Muslims?

13        A.   The Muslims did not destroy Hranca.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Were you acquainted with the Serbs of Hranca?  They

15     are only 2 kilometres from you.

16        A.   Yes.  I went to school with some of them.

17        Q.   Have you forgotten, or maybe you don't know at all -- let me put

18     it this way:  Did you know Judge Goran Zekic?

19        A.   I did, formally.

20        Q.   Was he from Bratunac?  He was a deputy representing Bratunac, but

21     he was a judge in Srebrenica.

22        A.   I don't know what he did and where he was a judge.  This is the

23     first time that I hear of that.

24        Q.   Did you forget?  Did you omit it intentionally, or maybe you

25     forgot that on the 8th of May, Judge Goran Zekic was killed from an

Page 17662

 1     ambush while he was try to find a solution for reconciliation between the

 2     Serbs and the Muslims?

 3        A.   This is completely new to me, because I had no access to any news

 4     on the 9th of May.

 5        Q.   But this was on all -- covered by all the media.  A Serb judge

 6     was killed.  You didn't notice that?

 7        A.   No, I didn't.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have these two video-clips

 9     admitted into evidence, Excellencies?

10             JUDGE KWON:  I take it they are -- they were taken by the Defence

11     team recently, Mr. Karadzic?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Speaking for myself, there's a basis for us to admit

14     the first one, but what's the purpose of the second one?  Witness didn't

15     confirm anything about that video-clip.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we see the devastated Serbian

17     houses, and he alleges that this was not done by the Muslims.  At the

18     moment, this village is being reconstructed, and I'm sure that neither

19     the Serbs nor the JNA had burnt it, and the witness says that some of the

20     Muslims of Hranca fled to his village.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

23        Q.   The event did not happen as it is indicated in the testimony,

24     but, rather, the column was attacked and the Serb houses were destroyed.

25        A.   That's not correct.

Page 17663

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Can you confirm, Mr. Talovic, that the houses,

 2     destroyed houses, were Serbian houses?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't confirm that, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Let me ask you this, Mr. Witness:  Two-roofed houses are usually

 6     Serbs, and those who have four are those belonging to the Muslims?

 7        A.   I never paid any attention to that.

 8        Q.   Was that the Serbian Hranca that we saw?

 9        A.   It could have been Muslim as well.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  I -- I just can't see any basis with respect to

12     the second film, Your Honour.  The only evidence that we have about what

13     that film purports to represent comes from Dr. Karadzic's mouth.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit only the first one.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1644, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can we agree that your village of Glogova is situated on the

20     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on the right-hand side viewed from Bratunac?

21        A.   There is an asphalt road that goes through Glogova, 4 or 5

22     kilometres, and Glogova is situated on the -- both sides of the road.

23        Q.   But most of it is on the right-hand side; right?

24        A.   I would say the ratio is 60/40, but all of it is -- all of it is

25     the local commune of Glogova.

Page 17664

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now have 1D4081.  Unfortunately, we don't have

 2     the translation yet, but the witness can understand our language.  1D4 --

 3     yes, yes.

 4             This is an Official Note from 2003 in which it says that a man

 5     came and introduced himself.  This name is confidential.  And he said

 6     that during the war he was Naser Oric's unit in the area of Srebrenica

 7     and that he knows about how a number of Serbs had been killed in that

 8     area.  And he goes on to say, first of all, at the beginning of war in

 9     1992, an ambush was set up on the Srebrenica-Zalazje road in which an MP,

10     Goran Zekic, was killed.  It was carried out by Mrki and the son of Redzo

11     Salihovic from Bratunac, and all of this had been ordered by Naser Oric,

12     and he's talking about Zulfo Tursunovic.

13             And towards the bottom he says that in 1992 I was in the village

14     of Sandici, Bratunac municipality, where our forces manned a roadblock on

15     the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.  Our forces means Muslim forces,

16     because he's a Muslim.  In May and June - can we have the next page,

17     please - when a vehicle ran into an ambush with some people in it.

18     Milutin Milosevic from the Bratunac police station was taken prisoner.

19     Naser Oric was wounded there, as a result of which Naser Oric tortured

20     Milutin who was wounded.  He said that he kicked Milutin and finally shot

21     him dead from a close range.  Before he was killed, he was taken to

22     Konjevic Polje where he was tortured, cut with a knife, et cetera.

23             Did you know policeman Milutin Milosevic from the Bratunac police

24     station?

25        A.   I knew only a few policemen.

Page 17665

 1        Q.   Did you hear about this capture and murder of this police

 2     officer?

 3        A.   This is something completely new to me.

 4        Q.   Can we now have two pages further.  Can we see that part, and

 5     let's see whether you've heard of this.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, Your Honour, I'm actually wondering why

 7     we're going down this road with this statement.  It's the same type of

 8     thing we've dealt with again and again and again.  This is unsourced.

 9     The type at the first page indicates that it came from the Bratunac MUP,

10     but, in fact, if you look, Your Honour, it looks like it's been

11     photocopied from a book.

12             If there's a question in this related to this witness's evidence,

13     I'd like us to get on with it.  I'm just wondering otherwise about the

14     relevance of this.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I quite agree, Ms. Edgerton.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond briefly.

17             JUDGE KWON:  You didn't give the time-frame of these events put

18     to the witness, and we have a witness who testified as to his surviving a

19     massacre scene.  What relevance does this have to his evidence at all,

20     Mr. Karadzic?  What -- before we proceed, what time-frame are we talking

21     about in this document?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness, a Muslim, came to

23     Bratunac to provide a statement to the police, and we can find out what

24     his name was, and he speaks of events on the 8th of May.  Now, the

25     incident that this witness was affected by was on the 9th of May.  And

Page 17666

 1     here we can see the developments and the events and incidents between the

 2     local Serbs and Muslims, and no one from outside the area in any way had

 3     any influence on what was going on locally.  They killed each other, and

 4     it all started with their setting up barricades and ambushes and with the

 5     killing of a Serb judge the previous day.

 6             Now, all of this was happening in a relatively small area, and

 7     this witness should be aware of it, because these are well-known events,

 8     and they were reported in the media.

 9             Now, if the witness refuses to know anything about it, that also

10     speaks of something.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know anything about

12     this, and I never heard about it.  I didn't hear of any of it.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you will have less than ten minutes to

14     conclude your cross-examination.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You mention a vojvoda, namely that these local Serbs who captured

17     you -- well, first of all, tell me, Witness, sir, when did you build a

18     dugout in Glogova?

19        A.   It wasn't a dugout.  It was a brook where we took refuge.

20        Q.   Didn't you say that you actually sought refuge underground?

21        A.   Well, this was below my meadow, some 150 metres further.  There

22     were some trees there and some underbrush, and that's where we crawled

23     under and hid there.

24        Q.   In your statement of 2000, you mention a number of individuals

25     who took part in the events on the critical day.  You mentioned some

Page 17667

 1     Serbs such as Dragan Stevic, Najdan Mladjenovic, and Momir Nikolic; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In your first statement, you never even mentioned Momir Nikolic;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   I don't know if there was any need to mention him, because when

 7     we were taken to the shopping centre, Momir Nikolic was there.

 8        Q.   And you recalled this subsequently in the year 2000 when asked

 9     about it by the Prosecution; correct?

10        A.   Well, I don't know.  I probably mentioned that and maybe it

11     wasn't noted, but it is certain Momir Nikolic was there.  There's no

12     doubt about it.

13        Q.   Was Momir Nikolic a man of importance, or was he so irrelevant

14     that you never noticed him?  I mean, who was more important, this

15     vojvoda, duke, or Nikolic?

16        A.   Well, Nikolic.

17        Q.   So how come you recalled a vojvoda and you did not recall

18     Nikolic?

19        A.   Well, because Mladjenovic came from Kravica.  He talked briefly

20     to Momir, and then they took the five of us aside, and because we

21     couldn't all fit in the car, Mustafa Olic --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the names of

23     the persons concerned.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Talovic, interpreters missed the names of the

25     persons you referred to.  Could you repeat your answer.

Page 17668

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to listen?  Okay.

 2     So when we were ordered to get into the car there was Mustafa, Sejid

 3     Ibisevic and Almaz Talovic.  They got into the car, and me,

 4     Musan Talovic, and Dzevad, we just stood next to the car because there

 5     was no room for us in the car that was headed for Bratunac.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   But somebody actually selected them out; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  Mr. Mladjenovic.  He just came up and said, "You, you, you,

 9     and you."  That's it.  Now there were five of us there, the five that I

10     mentioned earlier.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Was Golic important?  Did he have an important role

12     then or later on in the armed forces?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   You failed to remember, or perhaps you didn't see Mr. Deronjic at

15     the time in Glogova.

16        A.   Well, whether I failed to remember or not, I don't know, but some

17     20 metres away from us, from the shopping centre, from that road there,

18     there were over 500 Serbs there, and we were all herded there, all of us

19     who were rounded up on that day, and then they were -- well, those who

20     were elected were taken for an execution by the river.

21        Q.   You didn't see him; correct?  You said -- you didn't say that you

22     saw him?

23        A.   Well, I don't know.  I just know that Momir was there.  But

24     Deronjic was certainly the top man there.  He must have been there.  I

25     don't know.

Page 17669

 1        Q.   But in your statement of 2002, 65 ter 22268 in paragraph 3, you

 2     say that you had not -- you did not see him on that day?

 3        A.   Well, if that's what I said, that's how it was.  I stand by what

 4     I said in my statement.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know how many Serbs from Bratunac were

 6     killed in this war?

 7        A.   That's really a silly question.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now briefly take a look at

 9     2135, please.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  And just for the record, the witness said at

11     paragraph 8 of P3188, that he did not see Deronjic on the 9th of May.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now please

13     pull up 2135.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Talovic, do you know that 90 per cent of the Serb soldiers of

16     the Bratunac Brigade were killed defending Serb villages?

17        A.   That's news to me.

18        Q.   Well, take a look at this list.  It begins with number 152, and

19     this document ends at the number 487.  And then there are some additional

20     names added by hand.  So just take a look at this column where it says

21     "Defence, defence, defence, defence."  So how many Serbs were killed in

22     Serb villages and how do you explain that?

23             JUDGE KWON:  I see this as a total waste of time.  After having

24     hearing from the witness that he had no knowledge, what's the point of

25     continuing such questions?

Page 17670

 1             It's time for you to come to a conclusion.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, who was there on that day?  Who among the Serbs were

 5     there in Glogova on that day?

 6        A.   Well, all the Serbs from the municipality were there.  I don't

 7     know how many, but they were all there.

 8        Q.   You mean local Serbs?

 9        A.   Well, yes, there were also some soldiers, as I said, the JNA, and

10     of course the army of the Serbian Republic.

11        Q.   Do you know that on the 9th of May the Army of the Serbian

12     Republic did not exist?

13        A.   Well, I don't know then who was made to shoot at me.

14        Q.   Well, when you were arrested, your pistol was noticed.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And then they confiscated it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Which unit was in Glogova then?

19        A.   Well, only from what I heard from the media later --

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Could Dr. Karadzic be asked to give the

21     interpreters a chance to finish interpretation before he ask the next

22     question.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  You were in the middle of answering the

24     question which unit was in Glogova then, Mr. Talovic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard on the radio that

Page 17671

 1     mention was made of the Novi Sad Corps.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   What radio was that, what radio station?

 4        A.   Radio Loznica.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, you were -- there were some very bad blood there

 6     locally from August onwards, and all of that was committed by men

 7     locally; correct?

 8        A.   Well, we -- up until the 9th of May, we just went about our

 9     business as normal, and I recall that on the 8th of May I was just busy

10     doing the regular things, toiling the soil and so on.

11             Now, as to who committed the murders, you as Karadzic should know

12     better.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to express my regret,

14     Your Honour, that I was not able and not allowed more time in order to

15     shed more lights on the events there and their causes, and I believe that

16     the integrity of the whole proceedings will be undermined by this.

17             JUDGE KWON:  That's the matter for the Chamber to be concerned

18     about.

19             Ms. Edgerton, do you have any redirect examination?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  No, I don't, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Talovic.  I

24     appreciate very much that you have travelled to come to The Hague to give

25     it.  Now you are free to go.  Please have a safe journey back home.

Page 17672

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We will rise together.  There's no point of

 3     continuing today given there's only five minutes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             Tomorrow we'll continue at quarter past 2.00 again.  The hearing

 5     is now adjourned.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day

 9                           of August, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.