Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17953

 1                           Monday, 29 August 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning,

 7     Mr. Osmanovic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Today we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with

10     Judge Morrison being away due to his urgent personal matters.

11             Mr. Karadzic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Good

13     morning, Excellencies.  Good morning to everyone.

14                           WITNESS:  IBRO OSMANOVIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Osmanovic.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   At the beginning, allow me to express my sympathy and compassion

20     with regard to your losses, particularly that of your sister, whose

21     conduct did not contribute in any way of her deserving to meet the fate

22     that she did, and please believe me, I am telling you this from my heart.

23             With your consent, I would now endeavour to clarify as precisely

24     as possible all your statements so that we ultimately arrive at the exact

25     truth.

Page 17954

 1             You have testified in at least four cases and gave at least

 2     four statements; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Basically, at the beginning of your each of your statements you

 5     describe the attendance and the religious congregation at Han Pijesak,

 6     and you criticised the flying of the Serbian flag and the singing of the

 7     Serbian song.  Mr. Osmanovic, do you know that the Serbian Orthodox

 8     Church, even during the Turkish rule, had its own banner, and that was a

 9     different one from the state standard?

10        A.   Yes, I know that the Serbian Orthodox Church had its banner.  I

11     didn't criticise the fact that they were flying the banner and singing

12     the songs.  Those were Chetnik songs.

13        Q.   You said that they had a banner, but you also said that they sang

14     nationalist songs that had been prohibited.  Can you tell us which songs

15     you had in mind?

16        A.   "From Topola to Ravna Gora."

17        Q.   "All the Guards Belong to General Draza"?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Are Topola and Ravna Gora in Serbia?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know that the Western Allies never considered General

22     Draza and Chetniks their foes, that General Draza was accorded a medal by

23     the US president and that, quite recently, Draza Mihajlovic and his

24     movement have been rehabilitated by a court?

25        A.   I don't know about that.

Page 17955

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speakers please

 2     pause between questions and answers.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Osmanovic, you are being

 4     requested by the interpreters to put a pause between the question and

 5     answer.  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You said that you don't know that he was rehabilitated, but do

 8     you know that the Western Allies never considered Draza Mihajlovic their

 9     enemy?

10        A.   I don't know about the Western allies, Mr. Karadzic, but I know

11     that the Communist Party of Yugoslavia --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, where are we going?  Let's come to the

13     issues of the case.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

15     Your Excellency, I think that the point of departure of this witness is

16     very important, and I want to find out what he thinks that is

17     inadmissible when it comes to Serbs, whether it's the Chetnik Movement or

18     whatever, and that was the first movement of that kind in the Balkans.

19     So there was no mention of Muslims or anyone else.  So if his basic

20     position is anti-Serb, then it explains some other things as well.

21             Very well --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Osmanovic, you are said to be an anti-Serb.

23     Would you like to comment on that, Mr. Osmanovic?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I would like to comment

25     on it that.  I have nothing against the Serbs.  My family is of mixed

Page 17956

 1     ethnicity.  My uncle and my brother were married to Serb women.

 2     Thirty per cent of my family used to live and work with the Serbs.  I had

 3     Serb neighbours.  We visited each other on religious holidays.  We

 4     attended baptism ceremonies, et cetera, on sad and on joyous occasions

 5     equally.  In this song, Nikola Kalabic was mentioned and he was a Chetnik

 6     leader during the Second World War who was convicted by the Communist

 7     authorities for his crimes committed against the Muslims and part of the

 8     Serbian nation, and for that reason, I said that I didn't approve of

 9     those songs.  As for the Serbs themselves, I personally have nothing

10     against them.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Let us move, then, directly to Vlasenica and the issues relating

13     to it.  You said that in April you noticed that there were divisions and

14     tensions between the Muslims and the Serbs.  Do you agree that before

15     April a war had started and ended in Croatia in which volunteers from

16     Vlasenica, Muslim volunteers, took part in fighting the Serbs and that

17     Muslims from Vlasenica used to go to Croatia to undergo secret training

18     for police work, that they were sent there by the SDA?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  There's at least three questions in that, maybe

20     more, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Remember the invaluable advice

22     from Judge Baird.  Make -- put your question in a simpler form.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   First question:  Do you know that up until April 1992, the

25     Croatian war started and ended?

Page 17957

 1        A.   I know that it began, but I don't know that it ended.

 2        Q.   All right.  There was some sort of Vance-Owen Plan that appeased

 3     this battle-field, but do you know that Vlasenica Muslims used to go to

 4     Croatia to fight as volunteers with the Croatian Army?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the SDA used to send its members,

 7     its trusted members, along the party line to attend training courses for

 8     policemen in Croatia?

 9        A.   I don't know about that either.

10        Q.   Do you know that before April of that year, the political life in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina was very tumultuous and that all this had to do with

12     intentions of the Muslim party to secede from Yugoslavia?

13        A.   I know that there was a referendum on the secession.

14        Q.   Was it also very exciting in the Assembly and on the government?

15     Was the whole previous year imbued by very tense political atmosphere?

16        A.   I saw these political tensions in the Assembly of BH on TV in

17     which you, esteemed sir, took part in.  You were one who contributed to

18     those tensions.

19        Q.   Do you know that in Vlasenica agreements had been concluded on

20     forming two or maybe three separate municipalities out of one Vlasenica

21     municipality?

22        A.   I know that a Serbian municipality of Vlasenica was established

23     with a seat in Milici.  I don't know what's the third one that you are

24     talking about.

25        Q.   Do you agree that Milici separated separately and the rest of

Page 17958

 1     Vlasenica should have become the basis for constituting two separate

 2     municipalities and that each village was designated to which of those

 3     individual municipalities it would belong?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that this agreement was publicly

 6     acclaimed by opposition parties and that that was even publicised in

 7     early April?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly look at 1D4127 in

10     e-court.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you agree that Emir Rabija is a Muslim name?

13        A.   Just a moment.  Let me see the paper.

14        Q.   All right.  We'll get back to this later.  It seems that it

15     hasn't been uploaded in e-court yet.

16             Did you know that parallel with the negotiations on forming

17     two municipalities and two police stations and all the other issues apart

18     from the town infrastructure, the SDA [Realtime transcript read in error

19     "NCA"] was involved in preparations for a war?

20        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

21        Q.   Did you know that the SDA was arming the Muslims and that the

22     Patriotic League in every municipality in April already had their staffs

23     and units?

24        A.   I don't know that it existed in Vlasenica.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  Just at line 14 of

Page 17959

 1     page 6, as interpreted, the question reads something like:  "... apart

 2     from the town infrastructure, the NCA was involved in preparations for

 3     the war," and I'm sure there wasn't an intention to use the words "NCA."

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Perhaps SDA.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, the interpreter said "SDA."

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is it true that before that critical 21st or 23rd of April, a

10     large number of both Serbs and Muslims were leaving Vlasenica?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you recall that Milenko Stanic, the municipality president and

13     Mr. Izet Redzic, the chairman of the Executive Council, went to a rally

14     in Tuzla in which they invited the refugees to come back?

15        A.   I don't know whether these two gentlemen went to Tuzla, but I

16     know that those people who returned from Tuzla after the capture of

17     Vlasenica never left Vlasenica again.

18        Q.   So do you know that the Territorial Defence of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 12th of April, issued an order and directive

20     to attack the JNA?

21        A.   I don't know about that.

22        Q.   Well, you must have known that, because that was published the

23     next day, because we received that from well-intentioned Muslims, and we

24     made it public the very next day.

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 17960

 1        Q.   Do you know that after that, until the 17th or the 18th of April,

 2     Redzic and all the other SDA deputies had left, including the leadership

 3     of the SDA and other Muslim officials, that they all left Vlasenica?

 4        A.   I don't know when they left or where they left, but I know that,

 5     unfortunately, I and my family stayed behind, including a large number of

 6     my neighbours.

 7        Q.   I feel complete solidarity with you and your family, but you

 8     speak about other things in your statement as well, therefore, I have to

 9     ask you about them.  So you said that the JNA had come from Novi Sad on

10     the 21st of April; is that correct?

11        A.   I said that that was the Novi Sad Corps of the Yugoslav People's

12     Army.

13        Q.   Mm-hmm.  So we agree that it didn't come from Novi Sad but that

14     it was, rather, already deployed and that this unit had actually some

15     from Sekovici, which is even deeper inside Bosnia?

16        A.   They may have come from Sekovici.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the names of the

18     remaining places.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Did you say other places than

20     Sekovici?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  I said they

22     could have come from Milici, Han Pijesak, or Sekovici, because these are

23     the three roads that lead to Vlasenica.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17961

 1        Q.   But you do know that these people came from Sekovici; right?

 2        A.   Some elements were billeted at Tildja [as interpreted], near

 3     cardboard factory, 1522 garrison was located there, so they may have come

 4     from these three directions.

 5        Q.   How big was this unit?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know how it -- how big it was.  I didn't count.  I

 7     did see four APCs and tanks.  The tanks were near the playing field in

 8     Vlasenica, near the stadium.  The APCs were at the Muslim graveyard at

 9     the exit of Vlasenica.  Unfortunately, they drove these APCs around town

10     as well.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So you were in the army.  You served; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you recognised or understood or found out that the unit was

14     led by Lieutenant Musa, who is a Yugoslav-Albanian; is that correct?

15        A.   I found that out from a soldier who was born in Bijelo Polje, he

16     is a Montenegrin, he has a specific accent.  So when I was talking to him

17     I found out that he was from Bijelo Polje, serving his regular military

18     term of duty in the Novi Sad Corps, and that the commander is a certain

19     Lieutenant Musa.

20        Q.   As a man who served in the army, you would know the size of the

21     unit that could be under the command of a lieutenant; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So that means that it wasn't a large unit; right?

24        A.   Well, in view of the number of vehicles, no, it wasn't a large

25     unit.

Page 17962

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In your statements you say that it was quiet until

 2     the 23rd or the 24th of April when the JNA came.  However, the JNA came

 3     on the 21st of April.  Is that right?

 4        A.   In a statement, sir, it says the 21st to the 23rd.  So I wasn't

 5     precise about the dates of their arrival.  They did arrive on the 21st or

 6     the 22nd of April, in the early morning.  They issued an ultimatum that

 7     weapons should be handed over and, that morning, all the local Serbs

 8     turned up with standard military weapons, long-barrelled weapons.  They

 9     had white ribbons around their sleeves, around their arm, so that all

10     sides could tell who was who.  People who came from outside didn't know

11     whether I was Ibro, Marko, or Janko.  So somebody had to point that out

12     to them.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In your testimony in the Milosevic case, you said

14     that the JNA did not mistreat anyone; is that correct?

15        A.   Other than asking for the weapons to be handed over, the

16     Yugoslav People's Army did not create any other problems.  When the JNA

17     left, all hell broke loose in Vlasenica.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We Serbs and Muslims, are we racially different?

19        A.   Well, could you please clarify that when you say "racially."

20        Q.   Well, can you immediately tell who is a Serb and who is a Muslim?

21        A.   No, you cannot.

22        Q.   So how were you able to recognise that there were no Muslims in

23     Musa's unit, other than Musa himself being a Muslim?

24        A.   I did not know if there were any Muslims or Serbs in Musa's unit.

25     I met one soldier, and I had contact with that one soldier.  With the

Page 17963

 1     departure of the JNA from Vlasenica, I know that the only people in

 2     Vlasenica who had weapons were Serbs.

 3        Q.   In your statement of the 5th to the 7th of October, 1994, you

 4     said that you did not see Muslims in Musa's unit, only Serbs; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Could you please show that to me so that I can see it?

 7        Q.   Well, then we have to call it up in e-court.  We have to call up

 8     that statement of yours.  And while we're looking for that page, would

 9     you please tell us:  Muslim and Serb soldiers at the time, in the JNA and

10     in the reserve forces, did they wear identical uniforms?

11        A.   Well, other than the navy, the whole of the JNA wore identical

12     uniforms.

13        Q.   And you say that you didn't know if there were any Muslims with

14     weapons and if the Muslims were organised.

15        A.   In Vlasenica, no, they weren't.

16        Q.   Still -- well, can we please look at ERN 0021876.  This is your

17     statement to the bureau for war crimes in Lukavica on the 14th of April,

18     1993.  Page 3 of that statement, ERN 0021876.

19             You said that there was a hodza from Kuglici [phoen] who called

20     the Muslims via loudspeaker to hand over their weapons, and he went to

21     visit the Muslims who did have weapons; is that correct?

22        A.   You said April 1993.  In April 1993, I was in the camp.  I was in

23     Batkovic camp.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honour, we've not got that statement

25     that Dr. Karadzic is asking the question about on the screen, so it's a

Page 17964

 1     bit difficult for all of us to follow along.  He's now asking about a

 2     statement from the 14th of April, 1993, and this isn't it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I can't find that statement in his list.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer your question, sir.

 5     With the occupation of Vlasenica, there was a police vehicle, a Golf, in

 6     which Serb policemen put an imam, Hodza Munib Ahmetovic, to call on the

 7     Muslim people to hand over their weapons.  It's a well-known fact that a

 8     large number of people had hunting weapons, both Serbs and Muslims.

 9     People had licenses also for pistols.  From the vehicle, accompanied by

10     armed persons, Munib called people to hand over their weapons.  It's

11     true.  I said that and I stand by that.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Did you know that Munib called those Muslims for whom he obtained

14     weapons or, rather, those who obtained weapons through the mosque where

15     he served?

16        A.   Well, I don't know that Munib obtained weapons.  This is

17     information that the SUP should have and not me.

18        Q.   Can you see?  Is this that statement of yours?  It should be

19     third paragraph.  Can we scroll up a little bit, please?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have the cover page so that the witness

21     is satisfied that this is the document that Dr. Karadzic was referring

22     to?

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I apologise.  It's not the 4th of April.  Actually, the statement

25     was from August, the 4th of August, and not from the 8th of April.  I

Page 17965

 1     apologise.

 2             It's the Lukavac Bureau for War Crimes.  This is when you

 3     provided this statement; is that correct?

 4        A.   I am just looking for what you said.  I'm trying to find it.

 5        Q.   It's on page 3, paragraph 3.  You state that they were taken to

 6     those Muslims who had weapons.  This is the third paragraph:

 7             "While I was in Vlasenica," it says here, "35 years, there is

 8     Munib from Kuglici" --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot see where it is

10     in the original.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   It's Alibegovic, right, isn't it?

13        A.   This is Munib Ahmetovic.

14        Q.   And where it says here 35 years, that he was coming by saying it

15     was pointless to put up resistance and that they heard and saw him going

16     to visit with the vehicle those Muslims who had weapons; is that correct?

17        A.   Well, it says here while I was in Vlasenica during the day --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's ask for the witness to read

19     slowly.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We can't -- I can't find that

21     passage -- Ms. Edgerton, did you find it?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I found it on the original, Your Honour.  It's

23     the --

24             JUDGE KWON:  In English.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  But in the English I don't see it at all,

Page 17966

 1     actually, and I wonder perhaps if we can go into the next page on the

 2     English just to have a check before we go further.  And just -- I can't

 3     see even the page reference on the original for us to be able to, for the

 4     transcript, identify where it appears in the original.  So perhaps we

 5     could make that a little bit smaller.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I think I've found it.  It's the second

 7     penultimate paragraph.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  While I was still in Vlasenica."  [No

 9     interpretation].

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   "While I was still in Vlasenica, on the first day of the

12     occupation by the Chetniks, I heard from some people that the Vlasenica

13     imam Munib from Kuglici, about 35 years old, appealed to the Muslim

14     people through a loud speaker to surrender their weapons."

15             JUDGE KWON:  We can read it.  What is your question,

16     Mr. Karadzic?

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So you were told that they -- that he took them to those Muslims

19     who had weapons; is that correct?  This is what you said here.

20        A.   Yes.  This is what I said here.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that the hodza could do that because

22     weapons were brought in through the mosque, through the dzemat, and he

23     was distributing them to the resistant movement?

24        A.   Sir, I don't know whether weapons were brought to the mosque.

25     The mosque should not be dealing with the weapons.  I don't know if they

Page 17967

 1     were distributed through the dzemat, I don't know.  I don't know if the

 2     hodza distributed the weapons to anyone, but I do know that those people

 3     who had weapons had them legally.  They had hunting rifles and pistols.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  When you say that the first day of the Serb -- the

 5     Chetnik occupation, what is occupation to you, is that from the

 6     21st of April?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   So the legal, legitimate military force, the JNA, for you are

 9     Chetniks and occupiers; is that correct?

10        A.   The legal and the legitimate force which placed itself on the

11     side of one people, if I'm not mistaken, sir, that army should have been

12     on the side of each one of us, on my side and your side.

13        Q.   And on ERN 0081-4559 you said that there were only Serbs in

14     Musa's unit, that there were no Muslims there.  How did you know that?

15             JUDGE KWON:  I think you asked that question earlier on today.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   And you said after the weapons were handed over the Serbs opened

19     the shops, and you also said that the JNA formed the Serbian municipality

20     of Vlasenica; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at -- just one

23     moment.  65 ter -- well, let's look at 1D3589, please.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Which wasn't on the Defence list.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No.

Page 17968

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  But now, on looking at the document, I see it was

 2     an associated exhibit by another number.  Apologies, I was confused by

 3     the lack of reference to the P number or the 65 ter number.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you see that this was written by the Crisis Staff on the

 7     19th of April, 1992, that weapons should be handed over by citizens, not

 8     citizens of Muslim ethnicity; is that correct?

 9        A.   Well, this talks about the decision to disarm citizens possessing

10     the firearms illegally, but the vehicles called upon Muslims citizens to

11     hand over their legal and illegal weapons.  People of Serb ethnicity

12     walked around in Vlasenica armed with automatic rifles.

13        Q.   You're talking about those who had responded to the call-up.  Did

14     the Muslims respond to the call-up?

15        A.   Which call-up?  There was no call-up.

16        Q.   And do you know that Izetbegovic declared general mobilisation on

17     the 4th of April?

18        A.   Well, I don't know, because I wasn't a member of the SDA party.

19     So I wasn't really following that.

20        Q.   But it wasn't a party call-up.  It was a state call-up.  The

21     Presidency of the B and H, in opposition to the position of the Serbian

22     President, on Bajram, proclaimed a general mobilisation of the TO and the

23     police reserves.  Did you know that?

24        A.   Sir, I belonged to the security station for fire-fighting

25     according to the wartime assignment.  I was not a member of any military

Page 17969

 1     assignment, and police was always part of the MUP or the SUP.  I don't

 2     know if the call-up was something that applied to them.  I do know that I

 3     did not receive any call-up summons in Vlasenica from the fire-fighting

 4     station, whose member I was for a long number of years.  I do know,

 5     though, that my neighbours, Serbs in Vlasenica, were armed and that they

 6     carried long-barrelled weapons.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please be asked to repeat the

 9     number.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 23115, 65 ter number.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  That's P3214.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you see this document?  You were probably shown the document

16     during the proofing, where you can see that before the arrival of the

17     JNA, the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica decided to

18     activate the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica, which up until that time

19     was just proclaimed but was not activated, and that the reason for that

20     was that Muslim deputies and officials had left Vlasenica and there was

21     no formal government.

22        A.   Sir, I do see this piece of paper, and I do see that that

23     Crisis Staff existed.  I can see that the Serbian municipality of

24     Vlasenica was formed.

25        Q.   Well, do you know that a Muslim one should have been formed and

Page 17970

 1     there was a signature for that?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Well, then you're knowledge is not complete, Mr. Osmanovic; is

 4     that right?

 5        A.   I did not really pay attention to the political aspect of the

 6     matter.  I was born, I lived and worked in that same Vlasenica, and we

 7     never divided ourselves into Muslims, and we did not divide up our homes

 8     or municipalities, the city, or the village like that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can we for a moment look at -- oh, no.  This is

10     already later in May.  All right.  So it's not correct that the JNA

11     formed the Serbian municipality; is that right?

12        A.   When the Yugoslav People's Army came to Vlasenica, then I saw

13     that the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica was formed.  So with the

14     arrival of the JNA, that part, the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica was

15     formed, and the rest of the population, Muslims who were not in the

16     municipality, found out about it.

17        Q.   But would you agree with me that this was two days before the

18     JNA's arrival?

19        A.   Well, if we look at the dates, that would appear to be so.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you recall the declaration by the president

21     of the municipality, the joint municipality, which was later to become

22     the Serb municipality?  Was that the declaration that you had in mind

23     when you said that there was a declaration that there should be

24     disarmament, that law and order should be re-established and so on?

25        A.   Well, I'm just talking about the declaration which talked about

Page 17971

 1     disarming, and as for the document itself, in written form, I've never

 2     seen it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In your statement, you mention Dragisa Milakovic, who was a good

 7     friend of yours, and that you were at his place when he received some

 8     mail that had to do with mobilisation; correct?

 9        A.   I said that I was at his place when a uniformed man came to his

10     house with call-up papers calling him up to be mobilised.

11        Q.   And he was supposed to distribute those call-up papers; correct?

12        A.   Well, yes.  Those call-up papers for a number of villages, Serb

13     villages in the municipality.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And he told you on that occasion that you should be

15     careful, that you had no idea who all was carrying weapons in those days,

16     all kinds of idiots; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you also speak about Milakovic issuing passes for Muslims who

19     wanted to move around the municipality?  If any Muslim wanted to walk

20     around a municipality or move about the municipality, Milakovic had to

21     issue them a permit -- a pass, whereas if they wanted it leave Vlasenica

22     permanently, then such a permit would have to be issued by the

23     Crisis Staff of the municipality; correct?

24        A.   Well, for movement around Vlasenica town and the surrounding

25     lands, because there were some check-points, one at Bregovi and the other

Page 17972

 1     at the very approaches to the town, at Novo Naselje, I was on the way --

 2        Q.   Would you please answer --

 3        A.   Please let me finish.  One of the guards told me that I should

 4     report to Dragisa Milakovic in order to be issued a pass if I wanted to

 5     move and go from the town to my property, which was there.  In other

 6     words, from my place to my brother's place, whereas there was an office

 7     within the municipality that issued permits for those people who wanted

 8     to leave Vlasenica municipality.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So if Muslims wanted to till their fields and go out

10     of town with -- but remain within the municipality, Milakovic had to

11     issue the passes?

12        A.   Well, yes.  Not -- not just the town but for Vlasenica and the

13     surrounding villages.  For instance, my brother lived in Piskavica and I

14     couldn't go to see him without such a permit or pass.

15        Q.   Well, that's what you said in your statement.  That's

16     65 ter 00685742, and you said the following:  If Muslims wanted to work

17     in the field or go to a town within the territory of the municipality,

18     Milakovic had to issue them a pass.  Vlasenica Muslims who wanted to

19     leave the town permanently had to go to the Crisis Staff in order issued

20     a permit to leave the town.

21             You mentioned this only in the context of Muslims.  Now, were

22     they conscripts in the municipality?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we just go back a minute?  There's no such

24     thing as 65 ter 0068-5742, and I just wonder what Dr. Karadzic was

25     referring to.

Page 17973

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's ERN.  I'm sorry.  ERN page

 2     0068574 -- it starts with a 0, and I believe this is page 3.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  And what might that be an ERN page of, so that the

 4     witness also knows what he might have said?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well that's 740.  That's the

 6     document we had on the screen a moment ago.  We had it just a moment ago.

 7     That was the statement that this witness gave in Lukavica.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   While we're waiting for it to come up, Mr. Osmanovic, tell us,

10     please, did Muslims have to serve in the Serb army and the Serb

11     Territorial Defence?

12        A.   Well, sir, as far as I know, they were disarmed.  Those who did

13     possess weapons legally, I believe that they all had to return their

14     weapons, and none of them served and -- or were conscripts.

15        Q.   Well, please just answer briefly.  Were they conscripts and were

16     they considered as such, and were they supposed to also be issued a

17     statement confirming that by the military authorities, or did they just

18     need a permit from the civilian authorities?

19        A.   Well, only from the civilian authorities.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wonder if we're ever going

21     to get this document 0068-5742, ERN page 0068-5742.  That's a statement,

22     but it starts with 40.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   While we're waiting for it to come up, Mr. Osmanovic, you

25     mentioned these permits only to refer -- when referring to Muslims;

Page 17974

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, but I'm now completely confused.  I

 4     finally found the ERN number of the document Dr. Karadzic was referring

 5     to, and that was the witness's ICTY statement of 10 October 1994, not his

 6     statement in Lukavica in 1993.  So when Dr. Karadzic told the witness

 7     what he had said in that statement in -- that he gave in Lukavica in

 8     1993, I really don't know he was talking about now.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Did you find the passage as well, Ms. Edgerton, in

10     that statement?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Not so far, but I'm still looking, Your Honour.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 3.  So that would be ERN

13     ending with 742.  Yes.

14             "On another occasion I wanted to visit," that's how the paragraph

15     begins, "... I wanted to visit my brother in the next town."  So we are

16     supposed to find that part.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Last paragraph on page 3, continuing to the

18     next page.  And whether we are on proper page in B/C/S, I'm not sure.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  No, we're not.  We'll have to go over to the next

20     page so that the witness can see it in B/C/S.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's on the top of

22     the page.  The first sentence at the beginning.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   "If Muslims wanted to work in the field or go to a town within

25     the municipality, Milakovic had to grant permission.  Muslims in

Page 17975

 1     Vlasenica who wanted to permanently leave the town had to go to the

 2     Crisis Committee to get permission to leave Vlasenica."

 3             Correct?

 4        A.   Well, yes, that's what it says, but in Vlasenica there's only one

 5     town.  All the other settlements are just villages.

 6        Q.   Yes, but did you say this?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now get 65 ter --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the accused please

11     repeat the number.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 23218, 65 ter 23218.  53218;

14     correct?  Yes.  53218.  Yes.  Now we have it.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Look at this.  Sir, would you take a look, Mr. Osmanovic, at this

17     document to see how the permits for leaving town were issued by the

18     competent authorities.  If they are leaving town permanently, they had to

19     issue a statement saying that it was voluntary.  So if we look at item 3,

20     it says:

21             "To be allowed to travel to other areas, conscripts of Serbian

22     nationality must have a permit from the municipal TO staff showing that

23     their leave has been granted."

24             And then it goes on to discuss the check-points.  And then

25     paragraph 4 -- actually, we see it twice, so it's probably paragraph 5:

Page 17976

 1             "Special attention is to be paid to individuals and armed persons

 2     from other areas who want to enter the town.  All individuals are to be

 3     asked to show their licence to carry weapons and information on who they

 4     are being sent to is to be checked.

 5             "This particularly applies to individuals who have a history of

 6     thieving or other deviant behaviour, often concealing themselves behind

 7     their uniform."

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  This is P3218 referred to in the witness's

 9     amalgamated statement at paragraph 58.  So Dr. Karadzic is reading in a

10     document that the witness has previously seen.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, can you see that this actually applies to all

13     citizens with the exception of Serb conscripts?  In other words, the

14     Muslims were not -- they didn't have to bring anything from the military

15     office, but the Serbs did.

16        A.   Well, that's what it says there.

17        Q.   But would you agree, Mr. Osmanovic, that in wartime or an

18     emergency it was necessary to -- it is necessary to control the movement

19     of individuals, especially conscripts, in order to make sure that they

20     weren't deserters, that they didn't have any background agendas of their

21     own and so on?

22        A.   Well, I can only speak about the municipality of Vlasenica.

23     Everyone knew everyone.  We knew what meals people had on any given day,

24     as it were.  You are correct.  It had to be checked, the streets and so

25     on.  The situation had to be checked in wartime conditions, but at the

Page 17977

 1     time, I could no longer see people of different ethnicities.  At the

 2     time, there was no police anymore, there were no municipal organs or

 3     municipal government.  Everything had a moniker added to it, Serbian,

 4     so --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat his last word.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The interpreters couldn't hear your

 7     last word, Mr. Osmanovic.  What is reflected in the transcript is:

 8     "Everything had a moniker added to it, Serbian," and then it's missing.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because everything was

10     Serbian, the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica, the Serb autonomous

11     district.  There was no joint police anymore, no joint security organs.

12     Only one ethnicity was armed and that one ethnicity could move around.

13     There was a curfew, so that all the others were no longer welcome in that

14     town, although we were local.  We were born there.  Unfortunately, that's

15     how it remained.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   But, Mr. Osmanovic, in order to draw that kind of conclusion, you

18     have to look at the whole picture, not just part of it.  Now, do you know

19     that the Muslims agreed to have their own municipality, whether they

20     would call it the Muslim municipality or Vlasenica, Bosniak municipality,

21     whatever, that's what was agreed, and that Muslims actually fled

22     Vlasenica?

23        A.   I don't know anything about that.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look at

25     1D4127.

Page 17978

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Sir, you said a moment ago that you didn't see that there was a

 3     threat of war --

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Also not on the Defence list.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  You overlapped, Ms. Edgerton.  Could you repeat,

 6     Ms. Edgerton.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  1D4127 is not on the Defence list either.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Then let us hear whether it's also part of

 9     Prosecution associate -- no.

10             Mr. Karadzic, you're talking about disclosure violation and then

11     you are using a lot of unnoticed documents.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I received this

13     document very late, and as for the statement, the amalgamated statement,

14     of Mr. Osmanovic was in such a format that I could not access it on my

15     computer, and also I received all the documents that were disclosed to me

16     at the very last moment.  And just to add another thing, this is the same

17     document that I asked for earlier.  It's that same document.  So it's not

18     a new document.

19             Can we now see a bulletin of the Serb news agency.  That's what

20     we have before us.  Can we see the fourth page, please.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, I don't follow when Mr. Karadzic said

22     this is the document he asked for earlier.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I've already mentioned this

24     document earlier today, but it hadn't been uploaded.  It's the same

25     document that I asked for at the very beginning of the cross-examination.

Page 17979

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  If I may, Your Honour, the amalgamated statement

 3     was transmitted to Dr. Karadzic electronically in the same format these

 4     statements are always provided to him.  The documents referred to by the

 5     witness in the amalgamated statement were cited in the draft statement

 6     that was forwarded on the 12th of August.  I can't see how he can

 7     justifiably explain some last-minute disclosure in this regard and as a

 8     justification for using an unnoticed document now.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  So you're objecting to using this document.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  This time, yes, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I will consult my colleagues.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber will allow you to

14     continue, but in the future, please make sure that you give proper notice

15     to the Prosecution.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We shall equally be

17     tolerant to the opposing side, but please believe we are really suffering

18     under the load of our burden.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the question.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters couldn't hear your

21     question to the witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the witness whether it was

23     true that Rabija was a Muslim name.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And I can also add:  Did you now that Rabija Subic was a modern

Page 17980

 1     Muslim woman, as probably you yourself were -- and she was the president

 2     of the Socialist Party of BH?

 3        A.   I can say that Rabija Subic is a Muslim name.  However, whether

 4     she was a modern-oriented person, whether she was the president of that

 5     particular party, I don't know.

 6        Q.   Please look at this public announcement coming from her party and

 7     in the first section she says what she holds Mr. Izetbegovic responsible

 8     for.  But please focus on the last paragraph, where it says:

 9             "We warn you about blood shedding and final tragedy of the

10     so-called independence of the BH, Mr. Izetbegovic, and we invite you to

11     act upon an example of Vlasenica and Bratunac where agreements between

12     Muslims and Serbs were made without a single bullet shot, without

13     violence, crime, and without terror."

14             And look at the top where it says out of these bullet numbers.

15     She's asking him whether he was aware that there was a Catholic-Germanic

16     conspiracy to sacrifice the Muslims in the Balkans.  Can you see,

17     therefore, that there was an agreement that you know nothing about?

18        A.   Well, sir, if I look at this paper produced by the Serbian news

19     agency SRNA, this is what it says, and it says, "We warn you about the

20     ultimate tragedy and blood shedding," and then it goes on to cite the

21     examples of Vlasenica and Bratunac.  Vlasenica exactly went through this

22     bloody experience without a single bullet shot.

23        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, let us make this very accurate.  This was not

24     written by the Serbian news agency, it was only published by it, but it

25     was written by the Socialist Party of BH.  Secondly, it was written

Page 17981

 1     before Vlasenica went through this bloody time, and it just says that it

 2     was possible to avoid this bloody outcome by citing these examples.

 3        A.   I don't know about that.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.  Probably the Chamber does not need

 6     your assistance.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't think, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any basis to admit this.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  I was looking to see if the witness had even at a

10     stretch confirmed something but I can't find it.  Your Honours may

11     find -- and in all fairness I was looking to see if there might be some

12     contextual assistance, but I -- I don't take a position, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will not admit this, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, my position

15     is that this is a significant document which demonstrates that the

16     witness knows only half the truth and that if he had given statement

17     knowing the full truth would have been -- it would have been different.

18     The Serbian municipality of Vlasenica is not what -- all what it comes

19     to.  It was something that was subject to an agreement.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber gave its ruling.  If you'd

21     like to tender that document, please call another witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You said that the JNA had left their equipment behind.  Do you

25     know that Colonel Tacic took a rocket brigade away, something that I will

Page 17982

 1     never forgive him.  He took it from Mount Romanija in spite of all the

 2     opposition from the Serbian side.  The Serbs, the Muslims, and the Croats

 3     equally put a ban on taking any equipment away.

 4        A.   I don't know who Colonel Tacic was and where he took this rocket

 5     unit.  I do know, though, that in Vlasenica the weapons remained that had

 6     been in the position of the JNA, that every single Serb in Vlasenica was

 7     armed overnight.

 8        Q.   Didn't you yourself name a Muslim village that was also armed,

 9     but it was loyal to Yugoslavia as a state?  And I'm talking about

10     Brezevo Polje.

11        A.   Esteemed sir, Brezevo Polje is 150 kilometres away.  It's on the

12     River Sava near Brcko.

13        Q.   I'm not denying that, but do you agree that you said that you

14     knew that they had weapons, that they were Muslims who were loyal and who

15     took part in fighting against the Croats?

16        A.   I heard at Batkovic that they were guarding their village from

17     the Croats and I heard it from those very same people that the Serbs

18     brought later to Batkovici.

19        Q.   But, Mr. Osmanovic, nobody disarmed the people of Brezevo Polje

20     for as long as they were loyal to the common state, and they had been

21     given weapons by the JNA?

22        A.   I don't know who armed them.  According to the stories I heard

23     from people from Brezevo Polje at Batkovic camp was that they were

24     regarding the embankment on the Sava to prevent incursions from Croatia.

25     Allegedly, all of them were later brought to Batkovici.  Some were

Page 17983

 1     released sooner, some later, but the whole group from Brezevo Polje was

 2     brought to Batkovici.

 3        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, I don't have time to go into details.  Now let's

 4     clarify this:  You say that in May 1992, the Muslims were restricted in

 5     withdrawing money to the amount between 5.000 and 10.000 dinars?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was that a Yugoslavia dinar still at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Is it true that it was made in the -- that it was printed in

10     Yugoslavia?

11        A.   Yes, at the central bank of Yugoslavia.

12        Q.   Is it true that the payments of both dinar and for X amount had

13     been introduced back in 1989 by Ante Markovic?

14        A.   I don't know about the dinars.  I know about the foreign exchange

15     though.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Is it true that it was necessary to transport the printed money,

19     the dinars, to Vlasenica during war?

20        A.   Sir, I was not involved in any transportation of money.  I didn't

21     work for a bank.

22        Q.   But, sir, the shortage of cash had nothing to do with religion.

23     This lack was called -- caused by the fact because it -- the money was

24     printed in a foreign country and there was a border installed.

25        A.   If the money was short, then it was short for everyone.

Page 17984

 1        Q.   Therefore, as of the 6th of April, when war broke out in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, up until the 22 May, you didn't face any problems;

 3     right?

 4        A.   That's right, except for the curfew.

 5        Q.   And can you tell us whether you were arrested on the 22nd of May?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Were you arrested at home or some place else?

 8        A.   I was brought to the police station for the first time when I

 9     tried to withdraw money, and the second time I was arrested on the

10     22nd of May at home.

11        Q.   And when was the first time?

12        A.   I can't remember the date.

13        Q.   And then you say that you were detained in a solitary confinement

14     for six days; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   However, in another statement you say that you were released and

17     that you were requested to report to them on a daily basis and that you

18     were arrested again on the 28th of May.  Which of these -- this

19     information is correct?

20        A.   I don't know.  Show me the paper.

21        Q.   Well, for example, in your statement -- just a moment.  In your

22     statement given on the 8th of March, 2010, that's IT-08-91 case --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please slowly read the

24     numbers.  We are really struggling.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, slow down when you read out some

Page 17985

 1     numbers or passages from the statement.  Could you repeat.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So the case number is IT-08-91-T,

 3     and page is 7303.  It was an examination conducted on the 8th of March,

 4     2010.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   On that occasion you said that they came to your house to arrest

 7     you and that you were taken to a room where there were another

 8     20 Muslims.

 9        A.   May I look at this document in an electronic form?

10        Q.   Well, let it be called up.  This is a court document.  It's case

11     number IT-08-91-T.  It's a trial.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we do not have every document in our

13     e-court.  What's the -- what's the e-court -- 65 ter number?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With Court indulgence, we managed

15     to identify --

16             MS. EDGERTON:  I think Dr. Karadzic is referring to

17     Mr. Osmanovic's testimony in the Stanisic and Zupljanin proceedings, and

18     that's 65 ter 2227A.

19             JUDGE KWON:  22278 or A?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  The letter A.

21             JUDGE KWON:  That's a different thing.  Page number,

22     Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 7303.  This is 7299.  We have to go

24     five pages ahead.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17986

 1        Q.   It says here:

 2             "[In English] At the station I was put in a room where there were

 3     other 20 Muslim men."

 4             [Interpretation] And then you go on to say --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let us find the passage first.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says:

 7             "[In English] ... and Zoran came to my house to arrest me.  At

 8     the station I was put in the room where there were other 20 Muslim men."

 9             [Interpretation] Once we locate the names, the problem will be

10     solved.

11             JUDGE KWON:  This is a part of question?

12             THE ACCUSED:  No.  No.  The answer was:

13             "Bastah Rade and Zoran came to my house to arrest me."

14             [Interpretation] Can we look briefly at the statement given

15     between the 5th and 7th October 1994.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Look at this.

18             "[In English] In your written statement, you stated --"

19             Can we have the previous, please.  No.  Which was prior to the

20     last change.  Okay.  Okay.  Okay.

21             "In your testimony, in your written statement, you state that the

22     police arrested you, brought you to the SJB building and placed you in a

23     gaol cell along with up to 20 other Muslim men."

24             [Interpretation] So how do you say that you were confined in

25     solitary confinement?

Page 17987

 1        A.   Well, it was a solitary confinement.  It was renovated into like

 2     a gaol.  We were standing like sardines, the 20 of us.  This was in the

 3     Vlasenica police station.  The first floor, we were in a room that was

 4     turned into a cell from a toilet, and the second floor, it was turned

 5     from a weapons storage room into a cell.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the question

 7     and the witness the answer.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You are overlapping so quickly the

 9     interpreters have -- are struggling to follow you.

10             Mr. Karadzic, the -- before you repeat the question, how much

11     longer do you have for this witness?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I need a whole

13     session.  My hands are tied, really.  I cannot allow so many

14     inconsistencies, incorrect things, and untruths to pass.  So I kindly ask

15     to be given enough time.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for 20 minutes and resume at

17     20 to 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Before you continue, Mr. Karadzic, Judge Baird has a

21     question for the witness.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  During the course of your evidence earlier this

23     morning, Dr. Karadzic asked you:

24             "Did you know the SDA was arming the Muslims and that the

25     Patriotic League in every municipality already had their staff and unit?"

Page 17988

 1             And your answer was:

 2             "I don't know that it existed in Vlasenica."

 3             Do you recollect that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, the question carried two components.  The

 6     first component:  Did you know the SDA was arming the Muslims?  Can you

 7     give us your answer to that component?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the SDA party, I was not a

 9     member of the party.  I wasn't, and none of my family was, so I don't

10     know if the party armed anyone or not.  But with the hand-over of the

11     weapons in Vlasenica, they said that there was a certain number of

12     firearms, Kalashnikovs, with people who were members of the SDA party.

13     This is something that I saw on television.  This was shown by

14     Television Novi Sad.  They showed footage taped in the police station in

15     Vlasenica.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much indeed.

17             Dr. Karadzic.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, as I emphasised several times before,

19     the Chamber has -- has been carefully considering the amount of time that

20     is appropriate for your cross-examination of the witnesses, and in this

21     case two hours is, in the Chamber's view, more than sufficient.  I find

22     it quite inappropriate for you to raise this issue continuously while you

23     keep spending time exploring irrelevant or marginally relevant issues.

24             You will have 40 minutes to conclude this, your cross-examination

25     of this witness.

Page 17989

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Witness, were you arrested the way you describe in your statement

 4     of the 27th of July, 1993, or were you arrested in a different manner?

 5        A.   Could you please show me where I said that I was arrested on the

 6     27th of July?

 7        Q.   And you were taken to solitary confinement where you were alone.

 8        A.   I was alone in that room in the beginning.  Then they took me to

 9     another room where there was about 20 people.

10        Q.   How long were you alone?

11        A.   I cannot remember exactly how long I was alone.  If you have

12     written proof, could you please show it to me?

13        Q.   Were you arrested at home or were you arrested on the street?

14        A.   I was brought in for the first time from in front of the bank and

15     the second time I was arrested at my house, and I never returned to my

16     house again.

17        Q.   When was it you were arrested in front of the bank?

18        A.   I cannot remember when I was detained at the bank.  I tried to

19     withdraw a certain amount of money but Stevo Mumovic picked me up from in

20     front of the bank and took me away.  The second time, I was taken away by

21     Bastah from my family house, to which, to my regret, I never, ever

22     returned.

23        Q.   What were you suspected of?

24        A.   I was asked where the gun or the cannon was.  They asked me who

25     had weapons, whom -- to whom had the party issues weapons.  Well, since a

Page 17990

 1     cannon is not a needle that you can hide somewhere or put it in your

 2     pocket, and in view of the fact that I was not a member of the party, I

 3     really wasn't able to answer.  Dragisa Milakovic confirm the information

 4     that I was his acquaintance, I was not a member of the party, and that I

 5     was not a person who was armed.

 6        Q.   And then were you released or were you held for these six days

 7     like it says in the statement?

 8        A.   Could you please show me the statement?

 9        Q.   All right.

10             "[In English] Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 2nd Corps

11     command, SP number 10/101-114-6/93."

12             [Interpretation] Of the 28th of July, 1993, you said there that

13     you spent six days alone in detention.  "Nobody mistreated us, but I did

14     not get any food for those six days, and then Boro Mijic came and brought

15     us kebabs."  Is that correct?

16        A.   It's true that Boro Mijic brought kebabs, but I would like to see

17     that.

18        Q.   Sir, I don't have time.  You gave four statements and you

19     testified four times plus you gave statements to the Muslim authorities.

20     How am I supposed to have time to go through every inconsistency and

21     incorrect thing that you have said?

22             JUDGE KWON:  That's quite an improper statement.  If the witness

23     wants to see his statement, you have to -- you're obliged to show it to

24     the witness.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all right.  Can we have

Page 17991

 1     1D04119 then, please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   That is your statement of the 27th of July, 1993.  On the first

 4     page do you see:  "On the 22nd of May, at about 0800 hours, policeman

 5     Bastah took me out of my house."  And then on the 28th of May, this guy

 6     came in and brought you kebabs and yogurt; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, it's true that that is what it states.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  However, in a different place you say something else.

 9     This is your statement.  Just one moment.  This is the District Court

10     Tuzla.  No, this is the State Security Service.  Just a minute.

11             On the 27th of July, 1993, you stated at the Lukavica Municipal

12     Court -- no, no.  On the 4th of August, 1993.  4th of August, 1993.  I

13     apologise.  It's page 0190-8934.

14             You said --

15             JUDGE KWON:  If it is a statement of 27th of July, this must be

16     it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the SUP, and this is the

18     court of the 4th of August, 4th of August.  We had that a little bit

19     earlier as well.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, 1D4120.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And you state there that on the 22nd of May, the three of you

23     were picked up from the street, and you were interrogated at the police

24     station by Ljuban Stanisic, each one of us was slapped once or twice, and

25     then you were freed on condition that you report every 24 hours back to

Page 17992

 1     them.  So what is correct here?

 2        A.   I was arrested and detained on the 22nd of May.  Probably there's

 3     a mistake here, sir, as far as the dates are concerned.  And it's not the

 4     Lukavica court, because I never gave a statement for the Lukavica court.

 5        Q.   The bureau for war crimes.

 6        A.   Yes, but that's not a court.

 7        Q.   All right.  So were you released on condition that you are to

 8     report back every 24 hours?

 9        A.   When I was brought in, the first day I was released and told to

10     report on my way back or to work.  I was questioned by Ljuban Stanisic.

11        Q.   All right.  On the 28th of May you say that you were arrested by

12     Dragan Bastah at your house.  So from the 22nd of May until the

13     28th of May, were you conditionally released?

14        A.   Well, I'm just saying now that this is a mistake in the dates.  I

15     was taken away from my family home by Dragan Bastah, aka Czar.  Somebody

16     called him Dragan, som people called him Predrag, but everybody called

17     him Czar.  I was conditionally released.

18        Q.   You said that you were arrested on the 22nd of May, that you were

19     confined to solitary for six days and that -- once you said that you were

20     arrested on the street and the second time you said that you were

21     arrested at home.  And then from the answer that you were conditionally

22     released, this was not in the transcript, and I really have a problem

23     with time.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me Excellencies, but with so

25     many statements from this witness I must have problems with time, because

Page 17993

 1     I have to show everything the witness is not consistent.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  You could have started your cross-examination with

 3     this question.  You spent -- wasted a lot of time in the previous

 4     session.  Please get on with your cross-examination.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   The first time you were brought in was on the 22nd of May.

 7        A.   The first time I was brought in from in front of the bank.  The

 8     second time I was taken in from my house.  There is a mistake in the

 9     dates.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat his question, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat your question.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You were conditionally released after -- actually, you were

14     released on condition that you report in after you were asked about the

15     cannon and other weapons.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did you think that the fact that they had confiscated a

18     Kalashnikov from a friend of yours from a check-point could have made you

19     suspicious as well?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  I wasn't armed.  I wasn't a member of the

21     party.  I could not have been in possession of a cannon, so I don't see

22     any reason why that would be so.  However, everybody was suspicious.

23        Q.   Did you say that perhaps they suspected you because your friend

24     at a check-point had a Kalashnikov confiscated from him?

25        A.   Mensur Smajic handed in a rifle.  He was a colleague of mine.  He

Page 17994

 1     told me that.  I didn't know that he had the weapon.

 2        Q.   So he did not hand it over, but it was found on him at the

 3     check-point.

 4        A.   Well, I don't know if he handed it in or if it was confiscated at

 5     the check-point.  I was asked if I knew where Mensur Smajic got a gun

 6     from because they said that we socialised.

 7        Q.   So was that the basis for you being brought in; is that right?

 8        A.   No, I wouldn't say that that was the only basis for my being

 9     brought in, because they were looking for some kind of cannon.  They were

10     asking who was arming people, who was distributing weapons, who was

11     selling weapons.  Since I was not involved with that and I never had

12     anything like that, any need for that in my life, I was not able to

13     answer any of those questions.  But they could have found a thousand

14     reasons to bring me in.

15        Q.   But they didn't ask you about a thousand reasons but they

16     specifically asked you about the gun and the piece of weapon found on

17     your friend.

18        A.   They also asked me about the street guard since Dragan Milakovic

19     had confirmed that I had never been either a member of the party or

20     armed, and I didn't even participate in those guards.  I was most of the

21     time in his company.  That is what saved my skin.

22        Q.   Is it true that back at the time where there was joint police and

23     joint patrols, the Muslims had their own check-points on the way to Drum

24     village, and they had their own guards?

25        A.   The village of Drum is populated by the Muslims alone with the

Page 17995

 1     exception of two Serb houses.  It is true that there was a check-point

 2     manned by the Muslims, but whether they were armed or not, I did not see

 3     that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You said that in Zaklopaca, grenades with incendiary

 5     phosphorous were used, which as you well know did not exist in the JNA

 6     arsenal.

 7        A.   Incendiary weapons do exist, and it existed in the arsenal of the

 8     JNA.

 9        Q.   You spoke about phosphorous grenades.  Did the JNA have these

10     kind of grenades?

11        A.   Can you please show me where I said that it was a phosphorous

12     grenade?  I only said that it was incendiary ammunition.

13        Q.   And you never mentioned white phosphorous?

14        A.   I may have offered an explanation as to what it might have been,

15     but I would like to see that in my statement.

16        Q.   So you mentioned the white phosphorous only as part of your

17     explanation of what it might have been but not of what it was?

18        A.   I would like to see my statement.  I don't want to speculate.

19        Q.   Did you know that no houses or anything were burnt in Zaklopaca?

20        A.   Four houses on the entry point of Zaklopaca were burnt, and all

21     the population was annihilated.

22        Q.   And those four houses were facing the separation line; right?

23        A.   There was no separation line there.  When you go from Zaklopaca

24     towards Milici, you come across the Serbian village of Podgora, the

25     village of Bojanic is above Zaklopaca, then Gornji Zalukovik, then there

Page 17996

 1     is Tabana on the other side, another Serb village.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement given 5 to 7 October, 1994, that

 3     before the JNA had come to Vlasenica, at the crossroads between the road

 4     and pavement, I -- you said that you thought that at the beginning the

 5     village of Drum was better armed.

 6        A.   Yes, that's what I said, and I stand by it.  I said that of the

 7     whole population, only young people remained.  Unfortunately, that did

 8     not apply to Vlasenica.

 9        Q.   Please do not expand your answers to cover other items, because

10     that will take much more time.

11             Can we now look at page 0018-4561, where you speak about

12     white phosphorous.  So 0018-4561, page 4557.  The date is the

13     10th of October.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 4557.  That's not the statement we

15     need.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, yes, it is.  That's his statement of

17     10 October 1994, to the ICTY.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 00619.  And the Serbian page

19     is 0018 -- actually, this is an English page, 0018-4561.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Sir, can you see in the English version where you speak about

22     Zaklopaca and the phosphorous grenades?

23        A.   I can see it in the B/C/S version, and I said here when the JNA

24     came --

25             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, for my colleagues in the

Page 17997

 1     booth, could Mr. Osmanovic slow down a little bit as he reads, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Let us find the passage first.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  In the B/C/S version, it's the full paragraph in

 4     the middle of the page on the left-hand side, and it's the second full

 5     paragraph in the middle of the page on the right-hand side, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   That's what you heard.  You don't know about this.  You only

 9     heard of it, and you incorporated that into your statement.

10        A.   That's what it says.

11        Q.   Now, as for these ribbons, Mr. Osmanovic, why should one put a

12     ribbon around their sleeves?

13        A.   All the local Serbs of Vlasenica wore those white ribbons as a

14     sign of recognition.

15        Q.   Uh-huh, so it means there were another army wearing the same

16     uniforms and the only way to distinguish between the two was based on

17     those ribbons?

18        A.   That's not true.

19        Q.   How do you know that?

20        A.   Because nobody else was either uniformed or armed.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go briefly into private

22     session?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 17998











11  Page 17998 redacted. Private session.















Page 17999

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 18th of June, I was

14     transferred from the municipal prison to Susica camp, and then on the

15     30th of June, I was transferred from Susica to Batkovic camp.

16        Q.   In your statements you mention this hodza as well as other

17     Muslims and you label them as traitors.

18        A.   Please let us be specific.  In what way did I label this hodza

19     and other Muslims as traitors?  I did say that hodza called upon people

20     via a megaphone to surrender their weapons, but where did I say that he

21     was a traitor, among other things?

22        Q.   Do you think that what you said about hodza was a positive thing,

23     that it was all right for him to say that any resistance would be futile?

24        A.   I think that he was forced to say that.

25        Q.   Did you --

Page 18000

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, that's too fast.  Too fast.

 2             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, we don't have any remote reference

 4     about where this whole line of questioning has been drawn from, and I

 5     think it would be of assistance to be directed to any comments by the

 6     witness in previous statements or testimonies regarding the hodza.  It's

 7     a whole line of questioning.  We don't know where it comes from, yet

 8     Dr. Karadzic says it comes from his previous statements.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We demonstrated that he mentioned

11     hodza in his statement, and I'm asking the witness whether it was

12     something positive about hodza or was he implicitly criticising him.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't criticising.  I just

14     think that he was forced to do that.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Is it true that in Batkovic, at least three Muslims were enjoying

17     a sort of privileged position that were in charge of taking prisoners to

18     perform labour and sometimes went out to carry out looting?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   What's the name -- what is the name of those people?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slowly tell us the

22     names.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Osmanovic, please pause before you start

24     answering the question, and the interpreters this time could not hear

25     your answer, in particular the names of these people.

Page 18001

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  There were three of

 2     them, Dzemal Zahirovic, aka Spajzer, and Django, a Roma from Zenica.

 3     Then Bekric Esad, aka Policeman, and the third one was Fikret of

 4     Brezevo Polje.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mm-hmm.  So it seems, according to you, that Smajlovic was

 7     appointed as a guard or a chief in another building?

 8        A.   Well, that's how he behaved, as a person in charge.  He was the

 9     only one among the prisoners who had his private car.  He was the only

10     person who went in and out of the camp whenever he pleased.  And that was

11     Smajlovic of Brezevo Polje.

12        Q.   And in another statement you said that he slept in the same

13     building and elsewhere you say that he slept in a separate building.

14        A.   At the beginning, he had different sleeping quarters from the

15     other detainees.  He was the only one who had a collapsible bed on which

16     he slept.  He was the only one who had unlimited access to everything.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that Zahirovic led groups into the fields

18     to perform work?

19        A.   Yes.  It is true that Zahirovic led the groups initially to work

20     the fields and then later to Koraj to plunder the Muslim villages.

21        Q.   To plunder the Muslim villages?

22        A.   Yes.  To plunder of Muslim village Koraj.  Trucks, tractors,

23     other machinery were driven away.  Furniture was collected.  Everything

24     was done in the same way in Svinjari and other villages, and the houses

25     were left empty.

Page 18002

 1        Q.   And he took other prisoners with him?

 2        A.   They were escorted by armed guards.  He was the one who

 3     designated who was going to be in the group and he acted as the group

 4     leader.

 5        Q.   Is Zahirovic a Muslim?

 6        A.   Yes, he is.  He's a Roma of Muslim ethnicity.

 7        Q.   These Muslims from Vlasenica and other places who enjoyed

 8     different treatment believed that you who did not enjoy this treatment --

 9     blamed you for the conflict with the Serbs and did they resent that?

10        A.   Those who were together with me experienced the same things as I

11     did.  There was no need for us to be angry at one another.  All we needed

12     was to survive and get out of there.

13        Q.   Whenever you went to perform labour, you very precisely noted in

14     your statement of 27th June 1993, in Tuzla, as to the exact deployment of

15     the Serbian troops and weapons.

16        A.   Yes.  In the sector of Majevica.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I have to skip things in order to stick to the time.

18             JUDGE KWON:  You have five minutes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   In your statements you said that after the events in Bijeljina

21     where you say it was declared that Arkan had come to prevent conflicts;

22     is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And then after Zvornik there were refugees going to Kladanj,

25     Muslim refugees going to Kladanj; is that correct?

Page 18003

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And were there Serb refugees coming from Kladanj going to

 3     Sekovici and Vlasenica?

 4        A.   I don't know about Sekovici, but I know that in the secondary

 5     school in Vlasenica, when we were brought back from prison I saw a number

 6     of Serb ethnic -- ethnic Serb refugees who were billeted at the school.

 7     I didn't see them when I left there.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that in your statement of 8th of August or actually

 9     the 4th of August, 1993, 1D04121, stated that in March until May, the

10     Muslims from the Vlasenica municipality held meetings which you attended

11     and at which it was concluded that you would need to be in a state of

12     readiness?

13        A.   Yes, it's correct that I did attend one such meeting.  It was in

14     my neighbourhood.  No one was armed, but we were told to be in a state of

15     readiness with others.  I emphasise "with others," because other groups

16     were preparing to come to Vlasenica.  Local Serbs were never mentioned.

17        Q.   Did you state that you knew that earlier weapons were shipped in

18     and that it was supposed to be distributed to the Muslims in the same

19     statement?

20        A.   I did hear about a shipment of weapons.  I don't know who these

21     weapons were distributed to, though.

22        Q.   Is it correct that on the first page of that statement you said

23     that in late February, the weapons with secretly brought in on two

24     occasions to Vlasenica, in Zastava trucks, intended for Muslims?

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I have the statement

Page 18004

 1     of the 4th of August, 1993, in front of me, and I can't find anything

 2     that bears any resemblance to any of the questions that Dr. Karadzic

 3     asserts the witness said in that statement.  I wonder if he needs to

 4     double-check the date.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I hope he can come back to you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 8th of August.  The 8th of

 7     August.  The 8th of August, and we have that now in e-court.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but this here at the

 9     top is not my name or my surname.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I apologise.  But you were at the same meeting with this man?

12        A.   It is not my name or my surname.

13        Q.   But you were at this meeting.

14        A.   I did attend one meeting.  I did say that.  But this is not my

15     statement.

16        Q.   Very well.  And is it correct that in Mustafa Zildzic's garage

17     weapons were transported with a PZ car?

18        A.   Mustafa Zildzic's garage?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Well, this is not my statement.  Can you please give me my

21     statement?

22        Q.   And the security organ of the 2nd Corps, did you say to them that

23     you were not mistreated by anyone?

24        A.   I was not mistreated by anyone when I was at home.  I said that

25     the last time you asked me that.

Page 18005

 1        Q.   And for the six days when you were in prison, from the

 2     22nd of May, that nobody mistreated you.  Pages 5, 6, and that is

 3     1D04122.

 4             Do you recall giving this statement?

 5        A.   Well, just let me take a look for a second.  Yes.

 6        Q.   It states on page 1 that nobody mistreated you; is that correct?

 7        A.   It means that nobody mistreated me at the beginning.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you read it -- why don't you read the

 9     remainder of that sentence?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot find it,

11     Your Excellency.  I have to rush.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody maltreated me for six days.

13             JUDGE KWON:  "Nobody maltreated me, but I was given no food for

14     six days."

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Yes.  And now I'm asking him about -- about -- about physical

17     mistreatment.

18        A.   Well, the first day that I was brought in there was no physical

19     mistreatment.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, now it's time for you to come to your

21     last question.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Is it correct that you said that you recognise that most of the

24     policemen who were dealing with the prisoners were from the reserve

25     forces and were not professional policemen?

Page 18006

 1        A.   They were not part of the professional work-force earlier.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             Ms. Edgerton, do you have any re-examination?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Just one if I may, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

 7                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 8        Q.   Mr. Osmanovic, today at pages 30 and -- 30 to 31, lines 25 of

 9     page 30, over 4 of page 31, Dr. Karadzic and you were talking about

10     shortage of cash in Vlasenica, and Dr. Karadzic said that:

11             "The shortage of cash had nothing to do with religion.  This lack

12     was caused by the fact that the money was printed in a foreign country

13     and there was a border installed."

14             And your answer was:

15             "If the money was short, then it was short for everyone."

16             And do you remember that question and answer?

17        A.   I do, yes.

18        Q.   Was the money, in fact, short for everyone?

19        A.   I wouldn't say that, Madam Prosecutor.  I wouldn't say that the

20     money was short for everybody.  I watched my Serb neighbours withdraw

21     unlimited quantities of money.  They could withdraw unlimited quantities

22     both in the form of checks or cash, but it was limited as far as I was

23     concerned.  I was subject to limitations, as well as my colleagues of

24     Muslim ethnicity.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

Page 18007

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I -- may I just ask the witness

 3     to be more specific?

 4                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Who received more money?  We're going to obtain

 6     bank records which would indicate that it was limited for everybody.

 7        A.   People of Serb ethnicity --

 8        Q.   Name?

 9        A.   Well, I'm just saying it was limited for Serb -- ethnic Serbs.

10     But you can obtain the records, go ahead.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, Your Honour, I'm sorry, there -- I wonder if

13     we could just go back to the last sentence in Dr. Karadzic's redirect.

14     The witness is said to have said, "Well, I'm just saying it was limited

15     for ethnic Serbs," and I just --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It wasn't limited

17     for ethnic Serbs but it was limited for everyone else.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you to my colleagues for the correction.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, just -- yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence has a need to test the

21     assertions of the witness.  If it is a neighbour, then that neighbour has

22     a name.

23             JUDGE KWON:  You put the question and the witness has answered

24     the question.

25             Mr. Osmanovic, that concludes your evidence.  The Chamber would

Page 18008

 1     like to express its gratitude to you for coming to The Hague to give it.

 2     Now you are free to go.  Have a safe journey back home.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I address the Chamber before

 6     the next witness comes in, in public session.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It will take a few minutes.  I

 9     would kindly ask for your patience.  I would like to say that this coming

10     witness gave a number of interviews and statements to the OTP which are

11     quite inconsistent, and in line with the other evidence and also with

12     exhibits.  (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.  Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  That's improper.  We go into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18009











11  Page 18009 redacted. Private session.















Page 18010

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We go into open session.  Yes.  Yes,

21     Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  What I would like to

23     say is that over 95 per cent of witnesses are testifying pursuant to

24     92 ter or 92 bis.  There are very few live witnesses.  With witnesses who

25     provided a number of statements and testified a number of times,

Page 18011

 1     amalgamated statements are a creation of the Prosecution.  They're very

 2     selective and present only matters that suit the OTP.  In our system,

 3     this could not happen, because the investigative judge would insist on

 4     objectivity and would obtain elements important for both sides.

 5             I understand that the adversarial system is different.  We're not

 6     used to such a system, but if we are affected by that system, which is

 7     foreign and unusual to us, then we must not forget the right to equality

 8     of arms.  But there can be no equality of arms if I have so little time

 9     and ability to prepare to rebut statements and documents that accompany

10     the testimony of such witnesses and if I'm not given time to finish that

11     job completely.  That is why I believe that it is a question -- all these

12     questions, 92 bis, where the witness don't come, 92 ter, where the

13     witnesses are there to very ambitiously retell the indictment and the

14     indictment is offered up as proof accompanied by a protected witness, all

15     of that, I'm afraid, is something that is creating a precedent, which

16     would be something very unfavourable for future proceedings or the

17     jurisprudence would in theory very soon be condemned because of the way

18     these proceedings are conducted pursuant to these rules are prejudicial

19     absolutely to the Defence.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, again you always go back to that issue

21     all the time.  Again I emphasise the Chamber carefully considers all

22     the -- all the factors in deciding the proper amount of time that is

23     appropriate for your cross-examination of the witnesses.

24             As I explained to you earlier on, you don't have to explore every

25     single issue with every witness.  The Chamber is aware of the fact that

Page 18012

 1     you are a self-represented accused who is not a lawyer.  For that reason,

 2     we give you a certain latitude both when assessing the amount of time to

 3     be given for your cross-examination and when assessing how your

 4     cross-examination is going.  However, you cannot continue to make

 5     unreasonable demands.

 6             You have to take some responsibility for the fact that you have

 7     chosen to represent yourself, which carries with it certain burdens and

 8     implications.  As to the efficient way to conduct your cross-examination,

 9     please consult your legal advisors.

10             For the next witness we go into -- we'll hear the evidence in

11     closed session.

12             MR. TIEGER:  That's right, Mr. President.  And --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add something,

14     Excellency?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Not this time, Mr. Karadzic.

16             MR. TIEGER:  We'll some need time both for the Registrar's

17     preparation and also to make the transition for the computers here.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And I need to hear the confirmation from the

19     Registry that the maximum amount of time we can go in one go is hundred

20     minutes, 1 hour and 40 minutes in terms of tape.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You didn't answer, Excellency, to

22     my request for the witness to testify viva voce.  That would only be the

23     third such witness.  The third, only the third witness that would testify

24     live.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, at this moment I don't see any reason

Page 18013

 1     we would reconsider our decision to hear the witness pursuant to

 2     Rule 92 ter.  As in the previous cases, things may change depending upon

 3     the answers given by the witness when he was asked about his previous

 4     statement, but that is something we have to see.  At this moment, the

 5     Chamber is not minded to change our previous attitude.

 6             We'll have a break, take a break for half an hour, and resume at

 7     quarter past, and I think we can go to the end of today's session from

 8     there on.  Quarter past 12.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 11.44 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

11                           [Closed session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18014











11  Pages 18014-18045 redacted. Closed session.















Page 18046

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day

14                           of August, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.