Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18211

 1                           Friday, 2 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Yes, Mr. Robinson?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning.

 7     Mr. President, this is our 57th motion for finding of disclosure

 8     violation and for remedial measures.  The provision that in this instance

 9     was violated was paragraph L of your order on the procedure for the

10     conduct of the trial which provides that the final amalgamated witness

11     statement shall be provided to the Trial Chamber and the accused at least

12     48 hours prior to the testimony of the witness.

13             There have been three violations of this rule.  The first being

14     with the witness Suad Dzafic who testified yesterday on the

15     1st of September, and his amalgamated statement, final amalgamated

16     statement was not delivered to us until the evening of 31 August.  We let

17     that go because we thought perhaps it was an isolated incident.  However,

18     last night, we received the final amalgamated statements for the two

19     witnesses who are proposed to testify today, KDZ-606, which was sent by

20     e-mail about 5.35 p.m., which Dr. Karadzic also received after 5 p.m. at

21     the Detention Unit.  And which contains comments on 13 documents which

22     had not previously been included in the draft amalgamated statement.

23             The third witness, Sefik Hurko, we received -- it was sent about

24     8.35 last night.  I have to admit I didn't check my e-mail until this

25     morning, but Dr. Karadzic still hasn't received that amalgamated

Page 18212

 1     statement, that final amalgamated statement, and it contains new

 2     information about new incidents and some additional significant

 3     information about incidents that had been previously described by the

 4     witness.  And so we are asking that you make a finding that there has

 5     been a violation on three occasions of the requirements for disclosure,

 6     and as a remedy for that, that you postpone the testimony of the next two

 7     witnesses until Monday, so Dr. Karadzic can have an adequate time to

 8     prepare.  We realise that this situation is caused mostly by the pace of

 9     the witnesses at this phase of the trial, because we are hearing a lot of

10     short witnesses and we understand it's difficult for the Prosecution,

11     even with all their resources, to keep up with this pace, and, of course,

12     it's extremely difficult for us with about one tenth of those resources.

13     But, in any event, the problem appears to be that the witnesses are not

14     being brought to The Hague in sufficient time to comply with your order,

15     and we think that that problem needs to be addressed and remedied not

16     only for these witnesses but so that the problem doesn't arise in the

17     future.

18             In particular, in our Defence case, we anticipate that the

19     witnesses will need to arrive significantly in advance of their testimony

20     in order to -- for us to properly prepare and disclose the material that

21     will be necessary and so we ask the Chamber to make a finding that there

22     has been violation to postpone the testimony of the two witnesses until

23     Monday, and to make whatever arrangements the Chamber can make to ensure

24     that in the future witnesses are brought to The Hague sufficiently in

25     advance so that the problem doesn't recur.  Thank you.

Page 18213

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  First of all, I'd like to

 3     treat each of the three witnesses that Mr. Robinson has identified in

 4     turn.  In respect of Suad Dzafic, we did file on the 14th of July, 2011,

 5     a draft amalgamated statement as an appendix to the notification in

 6     respect of Rule 92 ter for that witness.  There is no requirement in

 7     Your Honour's order for the conduct of trial that the Prosecution should

 8     file a draft amalgamated statement.  It's something we do to assist the

 9     Defence in their preparation for cross-examination of the witness.  The

10     draft amalgamated statement for Mr. Dzafic was practically identical to

11     the final signed version with the addition of some comments on some

12     payment lists which had been admitted in evidence already.

13             Now, in respect of the second witness, that is -- if we can deal

14     with KDZ-606, a draft of the amalgamated statement of that witness was

15     filed on the 25th of August, 2011.  The draft amalgamated statement

16     highlighted references to nine additional documents, four of them are

17     simply photographs of sites of mosques in Rogatica, with the specific

18     indication that we intended to show these documents to the witness during

19     proofing.  And the rest of the additional information and the final

20     amalgamated statement are corrections of a minor nature made by the

21     witness during proofing yesterday.  As Your Honours are aware, the

22     proofing for that witness was slightly postponed due to illness on his

23     part.

24             Let's deal now with the third witness and that is Sefik Hurko.  A

25     draft amalgamated statement was filed as an appendix to his 92 ter

Page 18214

 1     notification on the 16th of August, 2011.  Along with that draft

 2     amalgamated statement, we notified the Defence of a number of documents

 3     that we might discuss with the witness.  Of those documents, we selected

 4     three which made their way into the final amalgamated statement.  So just

 5     to emphasise, the final amalgamated statement simply contains comments on

 6     three documents listed in the notification filed on the 16th of August.

 7             Other changes in the statement do refer to Rajko Kusic's

 8     involvement, for example, in Rasadnik, a scheduled detention facility,

 9     Rajko Kusic's role in transferring the witness to a high school in

10     Rogatica, another scheduled detention facility.  And Rajko Kusic's role

11     in the cleansing of Rogatica is well heralded in that statement.  The

12     witness identifies him as being one of the principal players in Rogatica

13     in 1992.  I want to emphasise again that we are doing what we can within

14     the resource constraints of the Tribunal to give the Defence as much

15     advance notification as we reasonably can so that they do have draft

16     amalgamated statements which really cover 90 to 95 per cent of what the

17     witness is going to say, and we are going above and beyond what we are

18     required to do by an order on procedure for conduct of trial.

19             Now, in respect of Mr. Robinson's concern that there have been

20     new comments made by the witness on specific areas --

21             JUDGE KWON:  I will come to that.  Mr. Gaynor, what we ordered in

22     our previous order referred to, that is 8th of October, 2009, order, was

23     that the Prosecution should provide the accused and the Trial Chamber the

24     final amalgamated witness statement at least 48 hours prior to the

25     testimony of the witness.  That does not mean that it is always okay to

Page 18215

 1     provide that document, statement, two days before.  In the same

 2     paragraph, we said the amalgamated statement shall be prepared well in

 3     advance of the witness arriving in The Hague to testify.  Although our

 4     order didn't refer to the draft statement, I take it the final witness's

 5     amalgamated statement should have been provided at the time when you

 6     usually provide with the draft in our past experience.

 7             Do you have any observation to that, Mr. Gaynor?

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  I do, Mr. President.  We -- in many cases, we

 9     provide the draft amalgamated statement to the Defence weeks in advance.

10     Now, obviously we haven't yet had a position to confirm that with the

11     witness.  The resources don't permit witnesses to be brought to The Hague

12     to review the statement and then to go back to their home, their country

13     of origin, and then to return for testimony.  So what we do is we send a

14     draft amalgamated statement which has been prepared well in advance of

15     the witness arriving in The Hague to testify, to the Defence.  Now the

16     disclosure of the draft is not required under paragraph L.  If

17     Your Honour is asking:  Did we comply with the obligation to provide a

18     final amalgamated statement 48 hours before start of testimony, the

19     answer is no, but I'm attempting to put the sequence of events into

20     context to indicate that we have done a considerable amount to facilitate

21     the Defence's preparation of cross-examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Just before I hear from you, from both

23     of you, I have a question for Mr. Robinson.  So the Defence position is

24     that had there not been an addition to the draft statement, you wouldn't

25     have objected to the belated disclosure, if the only change is the

Page 18216

 1     witness's signature?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  I think that we would have

 3     considered what we had been provided with earlier to be the final

 4     amalgamated statement if it was only the matter of the signature.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So one solution one can think of is that to order

 6     the Prosecution to lead the witness live in relation to whatever is

 7     contained in the -- added to the previous draft statement.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  I think that can be a solution for Witness KDZ-606

 9     because the only differences is his comments on documents that are sought

10     to be admitted as associated exhibits, so if those are led live then

11     I think that we would be in the same position, essentially, as if we have

12     the draft -- there's not many changes to the draft that we received a

13     long time ago.  But for the other witness, for Mr. Hurko, there is

14     disclosure of new elements that I think -- first of all, and

15     Dr. Karadzic hasn't seen that statement.  That's a Rule 66(A)(ii)

16     statement now because it's not only amalgamating what was earlier

17     disclosed but it contains new elements, and, therefore, we think that we

18     would be prejudiced by the fact that new elements have been added to a

19     statement we just received on the eve of the witness's testimony.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's put that aside for the moment because we are

21     not in the position to say anything unless the Chamber is also able to

22     see that document in relation to Rule 66(A)(ii).

23             MR. ROBINSON:  You should definitely see that document.  I think

24     it was maybe copied to Chambers when it was sent to us last night.  But

25     if you see there is a track-change version of that statement.  And once

Page 18217

 1     you see it, you'll see exactly what is at stake.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And my last question for Mr. Gaynor is this:

 3     Whether it is possible on the part of the Prosecution, instead of trying

 4     to incorporate everything witness adds to the existing draft statement,

 5     that it leads those evidence live as a kind of change to the previous

 6     statement when the witness is in the courtroom.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  I would be willing to do that.  Mr. President,

 8     can I just point out at this stage that the tracked changes version which

 9     I provided to the Defence, there are a couple of paragraphs, four

10     paragraphs, which simply moved position in the statement.  Now, due to

11     the way the tracked changes operate, they appear to be new paragraphs.

12     They are simply moved from one part of the statement to the other, but,

13     yes, to answer Your Honour's question, I am willing to lead the new parts

14     live.

15             JUDGE KWON:  And has it been your practice that when you provide

16     a final amalgamated statement that has been changed in one way or another

17     from the previous one, you provide a track-change version -- has been

18     practised all the time?

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Not always.  In respect of these two witnesses, 606

20     and Sefik Hurko, we have provided documents showing the new material.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I offer the parties to add whatever they

22     want to say in addition to what has been already said.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I think the only thing I would like to

24     emphasise at the end, Mr. President, is that as a trial lawyer, myself,

25     I just absolutely cannot see how Dr. Karadzic could be expected to

Page 18218

 1     cross-examine Mr. Hurko without seeing that statement, and I invite you

 2     to look at it.  And I'll just give you an example:  The witness had

 3     previously described beatings that he and his father endured, and for the

 4     first time in his statement, in this statement we received last night, he

 5     acknowledges that he was found to be in possession of a number of bullets

 6     and a -- his father had a pistol and that was the reason they were

 7     beaten.  That's just one example.  Another example is a description of

 8     sexual misconduct at one of the facilities.  He's given -- recounted a

 9     completely new incident that had not been disclosed, that we were not

10     aware of before.  So those are two examples of the new material that's

11     contained in that.  So I know that you want to move forward and not delay

12     the trial, but in this particular instance, besides the violation of the

13     Rule itself, there is prejudice because of Dr. Karadzic's not having seen

14     that material.  Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add one word from the

16     point of view of drafts?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can read one statement, only

19     once.  That's my rhythm.  If I get a draft and if I study the draft, and

20     then if I get the final version of the amalgamated statement, that is two

21     readings and I don't have time for that.  Hence, the draft would not

22     really help me much.  I need 48 hours to get the final version.

23     Technically speaking, that's the way it is.  Mr. Robinson simply doesn't

24     know that because I've never told him.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I have a similar experience on my part because we

Page 18219

 1     give it a read before -- well in advance of the draft whether those

 2     alleged associated exhibits are part -- are forming indispensable and

 3     inseparable parts of the witness statement.  And then I find very many --

 4     recently new passages added in the final amalgamated statement in

 5     relation to those exhibits.  So I had to compare, just once again, just

 6     the day before the witness's evidence.  That's why I asked whether there

 7     is -- a track-change versions have been offered in the previous time.

 8             Unless you have anything to add, Mr. Gaynor?

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  I'd simply want to make the point when we

11     balance the advantages and disadvantages, that in our submission, it is,

12     in fact, advantageous for the Defence to have in writing, prior to the

13     witness's testimony, new evidence which he wishes to give, as opposed to

14     a situation where the witness might be called live by the Prosecution and

15     the new material arrives literally in the courtroom while we are all

16     listening to that material.  So that is one factor to take into account

17     when we add material to a statement which is then disclosed to the

18     Defence.  That was my only additional observation.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I could just mention that we

20     would still expect that material to be disclosed through a proofing note

21     even if it's not in the amalgamated statement.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will rise for 15 minutes to consider

24     this matter.

25                           --- Break taken at 9.22 a.m.

Page 18220

 1                           --- On resuming at 9.43 a.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Having reviewed the submission of the parties, and

 3     giving -- having given careful consideration to the matter, the Chamber's

 4     conclusions are as follows:

 5             In relation to KDZ-606, we order the Prosecution to lead the

 6     witness live in relation to the information which has been added to the

 7     previous draft amalgamated statement.  Given that the added information

 8     is not that significant, and also having considered the submission of

 9     Mr. Robinson on this matter, the Chamber is of the view that the Defence

10     is able to cross-examine the witness today.

11             In relation to Mr. Hurko, while the Chamber will order the

12     Prosecution lead the witness live in relation to the added information,

13     as in the case of KDZ-606, the Chamber postpones the cross-examination of

14     this witness to Monday, given the size and scope of added information, as

15     well as the alleged 66(A)(ii) violation which will be considered by the

16     Chamber separately.

17             For the future conduct of the trial, the Chamber very much

18     encourages the Prosecution to continue its practice of offering draft

19     amalgamated statements.  However, the Chamber encourages the Prosecution

20     to comply with its 48-hours deadline in offering their final version of

21     amalgamated statement, as well as offering a track-change versions when

22     there is any changes from previously disclosed draft statements.

23             Mr. Gaynor, who will be the next witness we hear first?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. Hurko is here, and he's ready to go, and KDZ-606

25     is being brought to the Tribunal as we speak.

Page 18221

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Then what we are going to do is to hear the

 2     examination-in-chief of Mr. Hurko and we will postpone the

 3     cross-examination of the witness to Monday, and then we proceed to hear

 4     evidence of KDZ-606.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well, Mr. President, can I just ask for one

 6     item of clarification.  It wasn't my understanding that the Defence had

 7     asserted a Rule 66(A)(ii) violation.  It was a violation of Your Honour's

 8     order on the procedure for the conduct of trial.  I'd invite

 9     Mr. Robinson, perhaps, to clarify his position.

10             JUDGE KWON:  What I understand -- yes, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, that's exactly correct and I was going to

12     rise for that very same reason.  Because the material was not in the

13     Prosecution's possession until yesterday, this new information, then its

14     disclosure didn't violate Rule 66(A)(ii), but the nature of the material

15     was such that it obligated them to disclose it, but they didn't disclose

16     it late, they disclosed it on time.  But we do ask the Chamber to make a

17     specific finding that paragraph L of your order has been violated on each

18     of the three occasions in which we alleged so that that's part of the

19     record.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for the clarification.  There is no

21     dispute that there's a non-compliance with that order in relation to

22     these two witnesses.

23             Yes, let's call your next witness, Mr. Gaynor.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The next witness is

25     Sefik Hurko.

Page 18222

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If you could kindly take the solemn declaration,

 5     please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  SEFIK HURKO

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

11             Good morning, Mr. Hurko, do you follow the proceedings in the

12     language you understand?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

15             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17                           Examination by Mr. Gaynor:

18        Q.   For the record, could you state your full name, please?

19        A.   Sefik Hurko, that's my name.

20        Q.   You're from the municipality of Rogatica; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, the municipality of Rogatica.

22        Q.   What is the name of the village from which you come?

23        A.   Village is Madzer.

24        Q.   Do you know the location of Kopljevici?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18223

 1        Q.   Where is Madzer in relation to Kopljevici?

 2        A.   Madzer is before Rogatica.  It is six kilometres away from

 3     Rogatica, whereas the other village is about a kilometre and a half away

 4     in the other direction, towards Visegrad.

 5        Q.   In a statement which you gave in 1994, you said that you stayed

 6     in the neighbourhood of Rudo with your father, your mother and your

 7     family from the 6th of April 1992.  Where is Rudo?

 8        A.   Rudo is in Rogatica.  That's a neighbourhood in Rogatica.  That's

 9     where I lived with my wife and children.  That's where we had sublet an

10     apartment.  When the war started, I went to the village of Madzer where

11     I was born.  That's where my father, mother and grandmother lived.

12        Q.   Take you now to the 22nd May, 1992.  On that date, you were in

13     Madzer; is that right?

14        A.   The 22nd of May, I was in the village of Madzer where my father

15     lived.  On that day, around 1300 hours, fire was opened at all Muslim

16     villages in the municipality of Rogatica; that is to say, literally all

17     of them.  And that is when that happened for the first time.

18        Q.   How do you know that fire was opened on all the Muslim villages

19     in the municipality of Rogatica?

20        A.   The village of Madzer is up a hill, and you can see all of

21     Rogatica and the other villages like Kovalj, Vragolovi, Kopljevici,

22     Orahovo, Sljedovici, Cubrici.  All of these villages could be seen and

23     you could see the shells falling on all of these villages.  You could see

24     all of that from this village of mine where I was, Madzer, and also these

25     shells were falling on Madzer, too.

Page 18224

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to call up now, please, 07859.

 2        Q.   Now, the screen in front of you, on the left, do you see a

 3     document which appears to have been issued by Rajko Kusic, addressed to

 4     the Supreme Command of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

 5     to Sokolac TO commander?

 6        A.   Yes, I see this document.

 7        Q.   In the first sentence, do you see that on the 22nd of the 5th,

 8     1992, the author states:

 9             "We conducted armed operations with military police company

10     against enemy strongholds in the villages of Dub, Pokrivenik,

11     Kopljevici," and he names other places, including Rudo 2 settlement?

12        A.   I see that.  Dub, Pokrivenik, Kopljevici, I know all of that.

13     Rudo, as I told you, is a neighbourhood in Rogatica.  That's the day when

14     the war started.  So in this area, from Madzer to Visegrad, the

15     population was predominantly Muslim, so these were Muslim villages; that

16     is to say that the population was 90 per cent Muslim.  There were no

17     strongholds there then.  All these people were civilians who had left

18     Rogatica earlier on.  I think that the fighting was over by then in

19     Visegrad.  Visegrad had been liberated and there were refugees in the

20     area.  In Gorazde, there was fighting, and there was about 35 square

21     kilometres there and there were refugees all over.

22        Q.   I just want to confirm:  Were you aware of any enemy strongholds

23     in any of the villages named in that document?

24        A.   I've just said that there were no strongholds whatsoever, of all

25     these people there were civilians, in all of these places.

Page 18225

 1        Q.   I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3265, Your Honours.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to call up now, please, 65 ter 08538.

 5        Q.   The document on the screen in front of you appears to bear at the

 6     bottom the date 23rd of the 5th, 1992, and commander Rajko Kusic is the

 7     name which appears at the bottom of this document.  As you can see,

 8     Mr. Hurko, Mr. Kusic in this document appears to be ordering units to

 9     hold their positions towards Kusturice, Oskoplje, and Rakitnica.  And he

10     orders that in the following 24 hours, the operations unit shall mop up

11     Oskoplje, Kusturice, Zakome and Kalimanici with the assistance of

12     Sokolac.  Could you tell us the ethnic makeup, as far as you're aware, of

13     the four settlements of Oskoplje, Kusturice, Zakome and Kalimanici.

14        A.   Kusturice is Muslim; Oskoplje, Muslim; Rakitnica, Muslim; and

15     Cadove, Muslim.  Muslims lived there.

16        Q.   Are you aware of the presence of any armed Muslim formations in

17     those locations on the 22nd of May, 1992?

18        A.   This is opposite the place where I was staying, so I don't know.

19        Q.   Did you observe any troops commanded by Rajko Kusic, who you

20     believe to be commanded by Rajko Kusic, in action?

21        A.   The 14th of August, when I was taken prisoner, that's when

22     I found out that Rajko Kusic was commander of the Serb army in Rogatica.

23     That's when I saw him and that is how he introduced himself.

24        Q.   We will come to that date in a moment.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  In the meantime, I'd like to tender that document,

Page 18226

 1     Mr. President.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't think the witness has really confirmed

 3     anything about that document, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor?

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I believe the witness has given us information

 6     about the ethnic makeup of the four settlements where Kusic is ordering

 7     the operations unit to carry out mop-up operations.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  That's all that he gave.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  That's correct.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, the Chamber will not admit this document

12     through this witness.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well, Mr. President.  I'll move on.

14        Q.   I'd now like to move ahead to the 14th of August.  You have

15     previously in your statement of the 16th of November, 1994, described

16     your arrest by four Serb soldiers, and you said that they took you to a

17     garage by the house of a person called Andric.  Do you recall that?

18        A.   I do.

19        Q.   What was the first name of the Andric?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I just --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mico Andric, the house of

22     Mico Andric.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  I just had a question about whether this witness

25     was being led viva voce or whether there was going to be any use made of

Page 18227

 1     the amalgamated statement.  So I -- as I'm hearing it, I'm thinking this

 2     is a viva voce witness, but I --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  My understanding is that Mr. Gaynor is going to lead

 4     live in relation to the information that has been added, and then he will

 5     proceed to tender the 92 ter statement.

 6             Am I understanding correct, Mr. Gaynor?

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Absolutely correct, yes.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Now, you were taken to the garage by the house of Mico Andric.

11     And in your previous statement you said that you were beaten up there.

12     Who beat you there?

13        A.   I was arrested, my mother, my father and my cousin,

14     Hurko Abdulah, were arrested in the village of Madzer.  I said we were

15     brought in in the garage of Mico Andric in the village of Kosovo.  It's

16     about four kilometres away from the village of Madzer.  We were brought

17     there.  We were sitting in front of the house for 20 or 30 minutes.

18     Soldiers began to arrive.  When the soldiers arrived, four soldiers told

19     us to enter the garage.  When we entered the garage, the soldier -- there

20     was a soldier with a mustache.  He was shorter than I was, perhaps 1.75

21     metres tall, and he asked us if we knew a certain person.  I said we

22     didn't know him.  He said, I'm Rajko Kusic, the commander of the Serbian

23     army in Rogatica.  Stojan Perkovic was with him.  Also Brane Krsmanovic,

24     aka Pipa, and Danko Neric.  There was a bench there.  We sat there next

25     to each other.  My father first, then me, then my mother, and then my

Page 18228

 1     cousin.  Then Rajko Kusic said to Brano Krsmanovic and to Perkovic to

 2     search us.  Stojan Perkovic found in my pocket 70 bullets from a

 3     7.62-millimetre pistol for which I did have a licence from before the

 4     war.  He took the ammunition and hit me on the head, and this ammunition

 5     just spilled all over this garage.  Krsmanovic, Brane approached my

 6     father and began to tell him to stick his tongue out, he took a knife out

 7     to cut his tongue off.  He started to cut his ears and then he took my

 8     ammunition and made me eat three or four of those bullets in the garage.

 9     And I did eat them.  Then they continued to beat us.  My father fell to

10     the ground.  He was already all covered in blood.  Stojan Perkovic then

11     took out a knife and then he started to stab me in my hands, then he

12     wanted to slash my throat.  I put my hands up there so I was all covered

13     with blood as well.  I don't know how long that lasted.  Kusic brought me

14     outside, then -- and then Danko Neric was there, too.  He was holding a

15     rifle and Kusic only had a pistol.  He said that I should start to talk

16     about something.  He said I -- he wasn't interested, I should start

17     talking about something else.  I mean, it wasn't any good what I was

18     talking about, and he wasn't interested in what I was saying either.

19     Then --

20        Q.   If I can interrupt for a moment.  Was Rajko Kusic present when

21     you were forced to eat the bullets?

22        A.   Rajko Kusic was present the whole time, when I was eating the

23     bullets and while everything else was going on.  He was there the whole

24     time.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just briefly say something

Page 18229

 1     about the transcript so that all of these mistakes don't pile up?  The

 2     witness said he was captured, and the transcript says once "taken

 3     prisoner," and the second time "arrested."  And this is something that

 4     I've been pointing to the whole time that semantically these are quite

 5     different things, so I would kindly ask the interpreters --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber will bear that in mind in

 7     reading the transcript.  And there will be another opportunity to correct

 8     the transcript, if necessary.  In any event, thank you for your

 9     intervention.  We will proceed.

10             Mr. Gaynor.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   I want to clarity another point which you've eluded to:  Was

13     Rajko Kusic present when you and your father were being beaten?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Were you then taken -- I believe in your previous statement you

16     said you were taken by car, that is, you, your father, and your mother,

17     to the secondary school centre in Rogatica and imprisoned there.  My

18     question is this:  Who was in the car, taking you from Andric's garage to

19     Rogatica secondary school centre?

20        A.   I just want to say first that in the garage, where we were

21     beaten, at one point Dragomir Abazovic came and Rajko asked him what is

22     he going to do with us, and he said that the three of us, me, my father

23     and my mother, should be taken to Rogatica and to interrogate my cousin.

24     And then when we stood up, this Stojan Perkovic and Brane Krsmanovic

25     immediately started to beat him.  They put his hands in his mouth, they

Page 18230

 1     began to hit him, use the knifes, that they had.  He started moaning and

 2     screaming, and they took him outside and killed him.  I am asserting that

 3     they killed him because he never appeared again.  Then, when they came

 4     out, there was a vehicle, a caddy vehicle with only two seats in the

 5     front.  They put my mother, my father and me in the back.  The driver was

 6     Danko Neric.  Next to him, Rajko Kusic sat, and they took us to the high

 7     school centre in Rogatica.

 8        Q.   What was the name of the person you describe as your cousin who

 9     was killed on that occasion?

10        A.   Abdulah Hurko.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to request document 65 ter 07336,

12     please.

13        Q.   The events you've been describing took place on the 14th of

14     August, 1992; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The document which is appearing on the screen in front of you is

17     dated 15th of the 8th, 1992, addressed to the General Staff of the Army

18     of the Republika Srpska, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and to the command of the

19     SRK.  At the bottom, it appears to have been issued by commander

20     Rajko Kusic.  Now, you see in this document that Kusic refers to enemy

21     forces, yesterday, that being the 14th of August, 1992, in the villages

22     of Orahovo and Kopljevici.  Do you see that?

23        A.   I do, yes.

24        Q.   Where exactly were you arrested on the 14th of August, 1992?

25        A.   In the village of Madzer.

Page 18231

 1        Q.   Where is that in relation to Kopljevici?

 2        A.   It's before Kopljevici in the direction of Rogatica, some one to

 3     two kilometres.

 4        Q.   Were -- the forces who arrested you, who were they commanded by?

 5        A.   Rajko.  You mean when I was arrested, at that point?

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   There were three soldiers there, three Serbian soldiers from

 8     Rogatica.  I knew them, just by sight.  Milica Pecanica [phoen] I knew

 9     well.

10        Q.   Who did you believe to be the commander of those soldiers?

11        A.   Rajko Kusic.

12        Q.   This document refers to operations by members of the

13     Rogatica Brigade in the villages of Kopljevice and Orahovo.  Is that

14     consistent with what you observed on that day?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3266, Your Honours.

19             MR. GAYNOR:

20        Q.   I'd now like to move to the 15th of August, 1992.  In your

21     statement, you say that Danko Neric and a person called Krsman came to

22     pick you up in a car.  Would you like to correct the name Krsman?

23        A.   Brane Krsmanovic.

24        Q.   They were picking you up from what location?

25        A.   From the secondary school centre in Rogatica.

Page 18232

 1        Q.   You state that they took you towards the village of Kosovo?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   They left you and your father with a soldier at crossroads in

 4     Kosovo?

 5        A.   Yes.  Well, perhaps I can talk about what happened that -- a

 6     little bit from Rogatica on.

 7        Q.   I'd like you to describe the incident where a bus arrived.

 8     That's the incident I'd like you to describe.  If you can describe that

 9     briefly, when the bus arrived at the crossroads in Kosovo.

10        A.   My father and I came in this Golf vehicle to the village of

11     Kosovo at the crossroads towards Duljevac.  Danko Neric was driving,

12     Brane Krsmanovic was sitting next to him, and there was a FAP 13 truck

13     that was following us.  The FAP was driven by Sinan Catic.  And then at

14     the crossroads there was a soldier, and we were told to get out there, my

15     father and I.  And this Brane Krsmanovic said:  These two should stay

16     here.  And when the bus comes, they should get on the bus.  They drove

17     off in the car, and this FAP truck continued towards Duljevac.  Then in

18     about 15 or 20 minutes, I'm not sure exactly how long, this minibus came

19     and there was a board on it, "Rogatica-Istanbul," it was a Centrotrans

20     Rogatica bus.  It stopped.  It was driven by Radisav Rubinac, called

21     Pjano.  When the bus stopped, the car was coming back then from the

22     direction of Duljevac, and they said there that my father and I should

23     not get on the bus because Rajko Kusic had to interrogate us about

24     something.  Then the car went back, followed by the bus, and they left.

25     After a while, this can be 15 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour, I cannot

Page 18233

 1     remember, I was all bloodied because the day before I had been beaten,

 2     then firing started, shooting, from the direction of Duljevac, and when

 3     the shooting stopped, when Krsmanovic, Brane came back, and this

 4     Danko Neric and this soldier who was there, Brane Krsmanovic told me, We

 5     have killed all the balijas.  Danko Neric took my father to Rajko Kusic

 6     to some place in some house and they took me back to Mico Andric's house,

 7     where I was arrested and brought the day before.  This was on the

 8     15th of August.  It was the second day of my captivity.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you in your statement describe your transfer to

10     the detention facility at Rasadnik.  Is it correct that that took place

11     the next morning, as you say, which is the 16th of August, 1992?

12        A.   Yes.  On the 16th of July, I was in the secondary school centre,

13     and a truck came with a tarpaulin with policemen.  They came and said

14     everyone should get on to the truck and they were going to the Rasadnik

15     camp.  Only they mentioned some families who should -- who were loyal who

16     should return.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to repeat the names

18     of the families.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then in two hours --

20             MR. GAYNOR:

21        Q.   Can I interrupt to seek your clarification on two point.  First

22     of all, you said:

23             "On the 16th of July, I was in the secondary school centre."

24             Did you, in fact, mean the 16th of August?

25        A.   Yes, yes, August, August.  August, yes.  I'm sorry.

Page 18234

 1        Q.   Second, you said the names of certain families who the

 2     interpreters did not catch.  Could you repeat their names, please?

 3        A.   The families were Hodzic, Soso [phoen], Pasic, and another family

 4     were told because -- because they were loyal, they were told that they

 5     could go home.

 6        Q.   Now, was -- is it the case that a person called Kojic gave the

 7     order that all the loyal Muslims should be released?

 8        A.   Yes.  The person who came, that was Kojic, he was the one who

 9     said that.

10        Q.   And in your previous statement, you described him as being from

11     the Serbian MUP.  In the interests of clarification, did you mean the MUP

12     from Serbia, or did you mean the --

13        A.   No, no, not from Serbia.  But since Rogatica was seized and Serbs

14     were there, what I was thinking of was Rogatica, from Bosnia.

15        Q.   When you arrived in Rasadnik, you've described in your previous

16     statement a conversation you had with Mujo Jasarevic about the prisoners

17     who had been taken away to collect hay.  Do you recall that conversation?

18        A.   I do.  In two hours a car came again.  They took me and my mother

19     to the secondary school centre, to the same prison.  They put me in a

20     cell which is where I saw a number of prisoners.  One of them was

21     Mujo Jasarevic.  There was some bags, travelling bags, standing there in

22     a corner.  There were about 15 bags and some cans of peas, and I said

23     What are these bags?  They said that there were about 30 more prisoners,

24     that they had gone to Duljevac to collect the hay, and the tins allegedly

25     was where people -- that people used to relieve themselves because nobody

Page 18235

 1     was allowed to leave the prison or the room.

 2        Q.   Do you know what happened to the prisoners who were taken away to

 3     collect hay?

 4        A.   In some 20 to 30 days, Radisav, Pjano, this person that they

 5     called Pjano who was the bus driver told Mujo in front of me, he said,

 6     They killed your father over there in Jivistit [phoen] I saved you, you

 7     were also supposed to be killed.  And then Mujo and I had found out that

 8     those people were killed over there.  I don't know if anybody survived or

 9     not.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I now propose to go into private session briefly for

12     the next portion.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. GAYNOR:

15        Q.   In your previous statement --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, sorry.

18          [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

21        Q.   In your previous statement, you have described instances of

22     sexual assault of detainees at Rasadnik.  Yesterday, you described to me

23     one incident in particular that you wanted to testify about.

24        A.   In early December, the prison commander was Vinko Bojic, who came

25     there.  He was appointed by Rajko Kusic to the post.  At that time, in

Page 18236

 1     December, he killed two Muslims who were in the camp.  One was

 2     Ibro Karaman, the other one was Himzo Brankovic.  And in late December,

 3     until the 21st of March, there was a lot of sexual mistreatment.  They

 4     would be taking away men and women to this room where Vinko Bojic was, as

 5     the commander of the camp, and then there were three other rooms leading

 6     from that room where Serbs were serving their sentences, and there was a

 7     Muslim soldier in also one of those rooms.  One evening Mujo Jasarevic,

 8     Semso Vatres and myself, Dzemo Jamakovic and another person was summoned

 9     by Brane Paunic to enter Vinko's office.  When we came to the office, we

10     saw four or five Serbian soldiers there who had beards.  They had some

11     sort of insignia on their caps, black caps with some insignia on them,

12     skull and cross bones, something like that.  They had ammunition belts,

13     you know, the belts with the ammunition.  There were rifles there, and

14     they were sitting at Vinko's desk.  And I could see four women, Muslim

15     women, who were in the camp.  I know their names but I don't want to

16     mention them now.  If necessary, I will.  He said when we entered that we

17     should strip.  We started begging, Why should we strip?  He took some bat

18     and said, Come on, take your clothes off.  He started shouting so we all

19     started to take our clothes off.  The women had already started to take

20     their clothes off, and then we were all naked.  And then when we took all

21     of our clothes off, he said we should hold each other's hands and dance,

22     to dance the kolo [phoen] dance, and then we were dancing around those

23     Serb soldiers, Chetniks.  I don't even know how to call them.  I don't

24     know what sort of soldiers they were.  They were people who were there.

25     This took an hour, hour and a half.  They made us touch their breasts and

Page 18237

 1     made them touch us, but I don't really want to describe that.  And then

 2     there were three rooms leading off from that office, and then they made a

 3     woman enter one of those rooms, naked.  She stayed up there for some 20

 4     minutes and then she came out by herself.  When she came out of the room,

 5     they would -- made another one go in and this lasted for an hour or two.

 6     Then they commanded that we should get ready, that they would take us to

 7     the room.  This was one occasion.  And it happened to me on three or four

 8     occasions, as well.  And it wasn't the same people each time.  It was

 9     different men, different women each time.  And that is the most difficult

10     time for me.  When I was eating bullets, when I was beaten, none of that

11     is as bad as the trauma that I carry for the rest of my life because of

12     that.  Even when I think of those women, I mean even now when I meet any

13     of them, I just hide.  This is something that Vinko Bojic ordered.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in semi-private session?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We are in private session.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I suggest that we get the names

17     under seal, the names of the persons who were mistreated.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor?

19             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll leave it in Your Honour's discretion.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, very well.  Mr. Hurko, in the course of your

21     answer, you said that you can give the names of those women.  We are in

22     private session, which means that nobody else outside, other than us, can

23     hear the proceedings, nor can they read the transcript of our

24     proceedings.  Now you had the -- heard the request from Mr. Karadzic.

25     Are you minded to give the names of those women or the ladies?

Page 18238

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:

 4        Q.   If you can provide the names, please, Mr. Hurko.

 5        A.   (redacted)

 6     These are four women who were there.  That was on that particular

 7     occasion that I described on that day.  But there were other women who

 8     had been taken there the following days.  I don't know what they did to

 9     them then.  I'm just talking about the things that I saw myself.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Hurko.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I suggest the witness said that

12     he was abused like this three or four times.  Was it always the same

13     women, and if not, can we have the names of those other women as well?

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think you can explore that in your

15     cross-examination.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We can return to open

17     session, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd now like to turn to

22     the question of Rajko Kusic at Rasadnik.  This is on paragraph 44 for the

23     other participants.

24        Q.   Did you ever see Rajko Kusic at Rasadnik while you were there?

25        A.   About six or seven times he came to the prison there.

Page 18239

 1        Q.   What years did you -- were those six or seven times?

 2        A.   It was in 1992 and 1993.

 3        Q.   Did you form any impression as to whether he had any control

 4     whatsoever over Rasadnik?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it permissible to ask for

 6     impressions?

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm going to get to the facts which led to that

 8     impression in a moment.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Objection overruled.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Hurko, did you form an impression as to whether Rajko Kusic

14     exercised any control over Rasadnik?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   To what extent did you believe he was in control of that

17     detention place?

18        A.   Fully, fully.

19        Q.   Now, could you describe any particular incident which led you to

20     believe that?

21        A.   Around the 23rd of July, 1993, he entered the room that we were

22     in.  He said:  I'm not going to feed you any more here.  I've been

23     feeding you until now.  I'm going to have you transferred to Alija.

24     You're going to be exchanged.  I don't need you any more.  That was

25     around the 23rd.  Not necessarily that particular day, but around the

Page 18240

 1     23rd of July, 1993.

 2             During the next two or three days, a bus came, one or two buses

 3     came, and they said that we would be exchanged in Bijeljina and that

 4     that's where we were going.  We all boarded these buses around the 25th,

 5     and we arrived in Vlasenica.  They only negotiated, talked about

 6     something.  They didn't reach any agreement.  Then we arrived in Zvornik.

 7     I don't know what the name of that room is where we were in Zvornik, and

 8     they said, You're going to spend the night here, and you're going to

 9     continue your journey to Bijeljina on the next day, Batkovic, where the

10     prison was there.  We entered that room.  It was empty, totally empty.

11     We lay on some parquet floor, and in the morning, around 5.00, a soldier

12     came.  He introduced himself as the commander of the Serb army in

13     Zvornik.  He started cursing.  He was saying all sorts of things, using

14     swear words about our mothers, what are you doing there, lying there?

15     You're going to be exchanged.  He said, Get out.  And we did get out.

16     There was a truck there covered with a tarpaulin.  And we all entered

17     that truck.  There were old women there that we had to carry, and so on,

18     but anyway, we were like sardines, packed in that truck.  We set off to

19     Bijeljina, Batkovic.  We arrived in the Batkovic prison.  When we arrived

20     there, they said that we should all get off that truck and a soldier said

21     to us, Now, when I call out your names, women are going to go on to one

22     side and men to the other side.  And he started calling out people's

23     names.  And once he was halfway done, roughly, another Serb soldier came

24     to him and then they talked for about five minutes.  After, that this

25     soldier said, All of you get into that truck again.  So we all got into

Page 18241

 1     that truck.  And the truck left, and returned us to Rogatica, to the

 2     prison where we had been before.  We arrived in Rogatica around 5.00 or

 3     6.00 in the early evening, that is to say, about 1700 or 1800 hours.

 4     Around 2100 hours or 2200 hours, Rajko Kusic and Vinko Bojic arrived.

 5     They entered the room, and you could see that this Rajko was nervous.  We

 6     always had to jump up, and when we got up, and he said, Get up and sit

 7     down, and he said that several times.  And then he started cursing, and

 8     he said, You see, Alija doesn't want you there.  No one wants you.  I

 9     don't know what to do with you.  I'm going to call the

10     International Red Cross to take you wherever.  I don't need you any more.

11     He also said that we should stand there and then he left.  About ten

12     minutes later, Vinko Bojic returned and said that we should sit down.

13     Then on the 28th -- so that was around the 25th.  And then on the 28th,

14     the International Red Cross came to register us.  Can I go on about that

15     now?

16        Q.   Yes, you can.  And I'd like you just to explain very briefly, if

17     you can, what it was you said to the Red Cross representatives and what

18     happened afterwards.

19        A.   The International Red Cross came on the 28th of July 1993.  I

20     have that paper that I got then.  Rajko Kusic was in Vinko's office when

21     this jeep came, or whatever the name of the vehicle was; it said

22     International Red Cross.  And they entered this office of Vinko Bojic.

23     They talked about something there and about ten minutes later, these

24     people from the International Red Cross entered our cell as well as

25     Vinko Bojic.  We got up and they said that we should sit down.  We did

Page 18242

 1     sit down.  We introduced ourselves -- or, rather, they introduced

 2     themselves and said, We are from the International Red Cross.  Don't

 3     worry, no people from the Serb military can be here.  They told Vinko to

 4     leave, and they said, You are free to tell us everything, what you're

 5     doing here and how things are here.

 6             I was glad.  I thought that I had survived and that I would never

 7     be beaten again.  And I got up and I said that we were being taken to the

 8     front line, that we could not survive, that we did not have enough food.

 9     That it was hard for us, that they were beating us, that they were taking

10     us every night, that they were mistreating us sexually, that they were

11     stripping us naked, and so on.  And also Mujo Jasarevic said a few

12     things, and my father said that he would like it if we could be

13     transferred to another country altogether.  They said that they would

14     give Mujo and me some cards stating that we were registered with this

15     International Red Cross because we talked.  As for the others, they said

16     that they would be back in two weeks' time and that they would register

17     all of them as well.  Is that the words you use, "register"?  What's --

18     what is the word?  Well, anyway, yes.  Well, they registered us with the

19     International Red Cross, yes.

20             They said that they would bring us some clothes in about 15 days

21     and then they left.

22        Q.   I would now like to -- you to tell us about an incident which

23     happened around three days later.  Keep your comments fairly brief on

24     this.

25        A.   About a three days later, after the Red Cross left,

Page 18243

 1     Hasim Dumanovic and Nazif Dumanovic were called in.  They were there for

 2     about half an hour.  And after that, Brano Planojevic came and said,

 3     Sefik Hurko should go to Vinko's.  When I walked in, I saw that those two

 4     had been beaten up badly, these were old men, they were 65 years old.  As

 5     for the place where Vinko was sitting in that office, Dragomir Abazovic,

 6     nicknamed --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear it.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpreter] Was sitting there.  I already

 9     mentioned him in connection with the situation when I was being taken

10     prisoner.  Vinko was there with a baton in his hand and this Abazovic

11     said to me, Sele - I mean, he knew me very well, and he was born in

12     1957 - as for that statement, when we arrested you, in Kosovo, the

13     statement you gave, it does not tally at all.  We captured another

14     Muslim, and now you're going to tell us how things were.  I had barely

15     started talking when Vinko started hitting me in the head with his hands.

16     He started hitting me, and also he cocked his pistol, put it in my mouth,

17     and I could not say anything.  After that, he said Take off your shirt.

18     I took off my shirt.  Then he started plucking hairs from my underarm and

19     made me eat it.  And then he started extinguishing cigarettes on my arms.

20     And after that, he told me to strip naked.  I was wearing underwear and a

21     jacket and I had to strip.  And then they started taunting me quite a

22     bit.  And then he took a knife, and then he wanted to hit me in the ribs.

23     And that is when I moved a bit and then he said, Fuck you.  What are you

24     doing?  You're defending yourself.  And he didn't hit me with the tip of

25     the knife, but he turned it around and he used that other part to hit me

Page 18244

 1     in the ribs and that's when I fell.  There was no air in my lungs any

 2     more, it was about five minutes or so, and they kept saying, shouting,

 3     Get up, get up.  And then I finally managed to get up and I only managed

 4     to put my underwear on.  A few minutes later, they said that Fejzo Hurko

 5     should be called in.  That's my father.  When they called him in, Vinko

 6     started hitting him on the head with both hands.  He hit him several

 7     times in the head and then he kept saying, Do you want to be taken out?

 8     Do you want to be taken to Germany, abroad?  All the things that I said

 9     to the International Red Cross -- and that I had said to the

10     International Red Cross, that is what they were repeating as they were

11     beating us.  Then he started hitting him with the truncheon, too, and

12     then he told him to face the wall and he gave me the truncheon and said

13     that I should beat him.  I took the truncheon in my left hand because

14     I did not have enough air in my lungs to use my right-hand.  And then I

15     hit him about four or five times.  I couldn't do anymore.  And then he

16     said, If you cannot do it then I'm going to do it, and then he took that

17     truncheon, I remember that full well.  He hit him very strongly 15 times

18     and he did not fall.  After the 15th blow, he fell on the floor.  He

19     started screaming, moaning.  And at that moment, Abazovic, Dragomir and

20     Vinko Bojic left the room.  Vinko Bojic had a car, a luxury car, a

21     Stojadin.  They got into that car and they left.  And they said to

22     Brano Planojevic to take us to the cell.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Just for the record, could you confirm the nickname

24     of Dragomir Abazovic, which the interpreters just didn't catch a little

25     earlier.

Page 18245

 1        A.   Pidje is his nickname, Dragomir Abazovic's nickname.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I'll just clarify one or two minor details.  You said

 3     in your statement then on the 18th of December, 1993, Sejfo Mirvic, a

 4     prisoner from the solitary cell, was killed.  And then you said in the

 5     original statement that somebody came in respect of his death.  Who was

 6     it that came and what did they do?

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 9     start his answer again.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hurko, if you could kindly start your answer

11     from the beginning, they couldn't catch your first part.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Satorovic is the name.  Tmurni Do.

13     These are places where most of the Muslims stayed on as loyal citizens.

14     They were expelled, too, but at that time they still called them loyal.

15             MR. GAYNOR:

16        Q.   Mr. Hurko, can I just ask you this:  After Sejfo Mirvic was

17     killed, is it correct that a doctor came to confirm his death?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, in your statement, you state that you were transferred from

20     Rasadnik to Kula prison on the 30th of April, 1994, and you describe work

21     that you were required to carry out at Ekonomija.  Describe briefly what

22     Ekonomija is and where it is.

23        A.   Ekonomija is close to Kula.  The Serbs called it Ekonomija.  That

24     was a farm.  Grass was cut, potatoes were dug.  I don't know how to

25     explain this.  Agricultural activity.

Page 18246

 1        Q.   Now, in a statement which you gave to representatives of the

 2     Tribunal in 1999, you gave a list of people who you believed were members

 3     of the Crisis Staff for the municipality of Rogatica.  One of those you

 4     named was Milovan Lelek.  Do you wish to make any correction as to

 5     whether you believe he was a member of the Rogatica Crisis Staff?

 6        A.   I do, by all means.  Milovan Lelek.  I don't want that name to be

 7     mentioned at all here.  I saw this man in civilian clothes.  He was very

 8     fair, very correct.  He always greeted me.  When I saw him in civilian

 9     clothing, there was something wrong with his knee.  He was being treated

10     for that.  And I don't know how come that man's name is there.

11        Q.   You don't believe he was a member of the Rogatica Crisis Staff;

12     is that correct?

13        A.   I just saw him in Rogatica once in civilian clothes.  I don't

14     know.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, what I propose to do is to ask the

17     Rule 92 ter questions in respect to the statement.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

19             MR. GAYNOR:

20        Q.   Now, Witness, did you have the opportunity to review, with me and

21     with an interpreter, yesterday, a statement to which you made some

22     corrections and clarifications?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, 65 ter 90269?

25        Q.   Do you see on the screen in front of you the first page of that

Page 18247

 1     statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you adopt that statement as your evidence, and if you were

 4     asked questions on the same subjects today, would you provide the same

 5     answers?

 6        A.   Well, what I see here is my first and last name and when I was

 7     born.

 8        Q.   Mr. Hurko, you had an opportunity to review your 1994 statement;

 9     is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You then made some corrections and clarifications and additions

12     to that statement.  Is that true?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Yesterday it was explained to you that this represents an English

15     translation of your previous statements incorporating the clarifications

16     and additional information which you provided; is that correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   You then signed the first and last pages of the statement; is

19     that right?

20             JUDGE KWON:  I think he put initials on each page.  Why don't we

21     show him every page, just go through the document.  You'll see the entire

22     document.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The last page.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, I see that.

Page 18248

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, the witness's signature is actually on the

 3     penultimate page.

 4        Q.   In any event, Mr. Hurko, do you adopt that statement as your

 5     evidence, and if you were asked questions on the same subjects today

 6     would you provide the same answers?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Now I'd like to tender that statement in evidence.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That is admitted.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3267, Your Honours.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I do have a summary of the statement for the public

12     which I can read.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. Hurko is a Bosnian Muslim from Rogatica.  He

15     describes the attack on his village on the 22nd of May, 1992.  Mr. Hurko

16     then joins the BiH Territorial Defence.  On or around 14th of August,

17     1992, Serb forces arrested Mr. Hurko, his parents and his uncle at his

18     parents' house.  They were taken to a garage by the house of Mico Andric.

19     There, in the presence of Rajko Kusic, Serb soldiers brutally beat

20     Mr. Hurko and his father, and forced Mr. Hurko to swallow bullets.  Kusic

21     questioned Mr. Hurko and personally escorted Mr. Hurko and his parents to

22     Rogatica where they were detained in the Veljko Vlahovic secondary

23     school.

24             Kusic took Mr. Hurko's father for further interrogation at the

25     Rogatica police station.  On the 15th of August, 1992, Mr. Hurko saw a

Page 18249

 1     group of men being transported on a minibus and later heard the sounds of

 2     gunfire from the direction in which the bus had travelled.  He later

 3     became aware that this gunfire may have related to detainees who had been

 4     taken from a detention facility at Rasadnik and then killed.  Mr. Hurko

 5     and his father were transferred to the Rasadnik facility where Mr. Hurko

 6     was detained for over 20 months.  He saw Rajko Kusic several times there

 7     in 1992 and 1993, and formed the view that Kusic had complete control

 8     over the prison.  Rasadnik was guarded by Serb military police.  The

 9     warden, Vinko Bojic, was appointed by Rajko Kusic.  Bojic subjected both

10     male and female detainees to acts of grossly humiliating mistreatment.

11     Several detainees who were sent to Bojic's office were beaten to death

12     there or shot dead.  Mr. Hurko was forced to carry out labour assignments

13     while he was a detainee at Rasadnik, including recovering the bodies of

14     dead soldiers, Serb soldiers, in mined areas.  At one stage, Mr. Hurko

15     and other detainees were transferred from Rasadnik to Batkovic camp where

16     they were led to believe they were to be exchanged but were then returned

17     to Rasadnik.  On 30th of April, 1994, a group of detainees, including

18     women and children, were transferred from Rasadnik to KP Dom Kula.

19     Mr. Hurko was finally exchanged on the 5th of October, 1994.

20             Now, unless there are other matters, that ends the direct

21     examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

23             Mr. Hurko, due to some procedural matters, and also given that

24     there is another witness who is not well, the Chamber wants to conclude

25     his evidence during the course of today.  We have to postpone your

Page 18250

 1     cross-examination to Monday.  So please accept my apologies for your

 2     inconvenience but I hope you do understand the situation of the Chamber.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's fine.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Well, we'll have a break.  Shall we have a break

 5     now?  We will have a break about half an hour.  And we resume at 25 past

 6     with the next witness, whose evidence I believe will be heard in closed

 7     session.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.54 a.m.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Ms. Edgerton.  Although the blinds are

12     down, we started in open session because there is one matter I want to

13     clarify in relation to the previous witness.  So I have to discuss it

14     with you, Mr. Tieger, because you were there.  It may be prudent if we go

15     into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18251

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Closed session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18252











11  Page 18252-18287 redacted. Closed session.















Page 18288

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day

 9                           of September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.