Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18405

 1                           Tuesday, 6 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Bazdar.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  Good

11     morning, Your Excellencies.  Good morning to everyone.

12                           WITNESS:  ARMIN BAZDAR [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning.

16        A.   Good morning.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak up.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bazdar, if you could come closer to the

19     microphone or could you speak up for the benefit of the interpreters.

20     Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Yesterday you said something about caps that I didn't quite

23     understand and then I saw also in your statement that you mentioned it.

24     You said something about greasy caps.  What did you mean?  Which caps did

25     you mean?  You mentioned fur hats, subaras, is that what you meant?

Page 18406

 1        A.   I was thinking of your traditional caps, the sajkaca caps.

 2        Q.   On page 5 of your statement you talk about characteristic caps

 3     with two-headed eagles and you said that these people had beards, long

 4     hair.  Is this what you referred to when you talked about the 50

 5     Chetniks?  If you have your statement in front of you --

 6        A.   No, I don't have it.  I'm sorry.  I would like to see it, though.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have the statement

 8     in Serbian from 1999, the 23rd of January, 1999, provide that -- could we

 9     please provide that to the witness, Mr. Bazdar.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  We can call that up on the screen it's 65 ter 07472

12     that was admitted yesterday.  I don't have the P number to hand, but it

13     is available in B/C/S.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It's Exhibit P3286.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

16             MR. KARADZIC [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can we look at page 3 first in the Serbian where you note that

18     there were two different groups.  One was in your village when they said

19     that you should assemble in houses, several families.  You said that

20     these were local people from local places and you saw people from Serbia,

21     this is the one paragraph but last on page 3, and you say that they wore

22     red berets and these up there were just wearing berets and then these

23     ones here had insignia of two-headed eagles, some had beards, and were

24     from Serbia.  So you recognised two distinct formations there, did you

25     not?

Page 18407

 1        A.   Well, the question is not clear to me.  You said a lot of things.

 2     Could you put a specific question to me.

 3        Q.   The question is in this specific passage that I indicated, did

 4     you recognise two groups of soldiers?  About the locals -- but you said I

 5     also saw members of paramilitaries known as the White Eagles.  Their

 6     insignia was two-headed eagles, they had red berets on, some had beards,

 7     they were from Serbia.  Is that right?

 8        A.   I don't see where it says that.  Could you please tell me.

 9        Q.   The one paragraph but last in the second half of it in the

10     Serbian, do you see that?  In English it's the last paragraph.

11             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's coming again.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I can't find my way

13     around.

14             JUDGE KWON:  On your left.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And page 3 on the left side of the

16     screen, please.  I think it's page 3 in the English as well, yes.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Last paragraph in the English and in the Serbian it's one

19     paragraph but last.

20        A.   You mean the one that begins "over the next few days"?

21        Q.   Yes, yes.

22        A.   All right.  Just give me a second to read it, please.

23             And what is your question?

24        Q.   Did you notice then in your village these two kinds of soldiers?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18408

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Then on page 5 in the Serbian and I think it's

 2     probably on the same page in the English version - can we look at page 5,

 3     please - where it says:  "We were taken to Duljevac ...," and then here

 4     you say that there was a Serbian soldier in the minibus called Dzeric and

 5     a woman called Neda.  You don't know why they were going there and then

 6     you say:

 7             [As read] "I saw about 50 Chetniks there, they had beards, long

 8     hair, and were wearing their particular caps with their Serbian insignia

 9     of the two-headed eagles, they had automatic rifles ...," and so on.

10             That's what was there when you came to Duljevac.  Is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14        A.   Just one correction.  It's not the Serbian person, it's not Neda,

15     it's Nada.  This was already corrected yesterday in the statement.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             And you say in the last paragraph that Sveto Ljubinac, an old

18     neighbour, told you that the soldiers were not going to kill you; is that

19     right, the one-but-last paragraph down there:  "It seemed ..."

20        A.   Yes, a few of us asked him what was going to happen to us, if

21     they were going to kill us, and he said no they were not going to kill

22     us.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   So just before the actual act of the execution.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

Page 18409

 1             At the end of the statement you say that the tunnel next to the

 2     airport in Sarajevo was only used by the UN as well as people and convoys

 3     with special permits.  Is that correct?  Because our information is that

 4     the UN did not use the tunnel but it was exclusively used by the

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina army.  This is on the last page of your statement, 7.

 6        A.   Well, this is something that I heard, so I conveyed that.  I

 7     tried to get across through the airstrip, so I don't know.  But this is

 8     something that I heard.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And did you hear that the tunnel was only used by the

10     United Nations and people with permits?  Because we don't have

11     information that the UN used the tunnel.

12        A.   This is what I heard and so this is a piece of information that I

13     stated because I heard it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             In your statement on the 20th of February, 1993, paragraph 12 you

16     said that Spiro commanded the unit there which in the end executed the

17     people.  This is what you said in that statement.  How did you come to

18     the conclusion that he was the commander?

19        A.   The way I reached that conclusion is actually by the way that he

20     ordered a Serbian soldier when the people who had gone on human-shield

21     duty returned he ordered to take us.  So Dragoje Paunovic, called Spiro,

22     issued an order to that same soldier that he should kill us.

23        Q.   Is it correct that in that action two or three Muslims were

24     killed, four Serbs were killed?  This is just before the actual

25     execution?

Page 18410

 1        A.   I know that there were two Muslims who were wounded, civilians.

 2     This is among us prisoners.  I don't know how many killed and wounded

 3     Serbs there were.

 4        Q.   But there were such people.  They had to return because they

 5     didn't manage to pass and get to where they wanted to go.  They had

 6     casualties.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, this is what was said.  This is what Dragoje Paunovic,

 8     Spiro, said.  I didn't see that.  All I saw was Mitar Ljubinac, called

 9     Grof, a neighbour from Seljani, where I lived, I saw him with a wound in

10     his arm and he was a Serbian soldier at the time.  I don't know about the

11     others.

12        Q.   Did Spiro have any ranks on his uniform?

13        A.   I didn't notice, other than the radio that he had on him.

14        Q.   And was Spiro wounded in that action?

15        A.   I don't know if he was wounded in that particular action, but he

16     had a Band-Aid on his left ear, on the lower part of his left ear, and

17     his collar was bloodied, the military shirt he was wearing had a

18     blood-stain on it.  I don't know if he was wounded in that action or

19     somewhere else, but he was wounded at the time when the execution took

20     place.

21        Q.   Well, had this happened earlier, he would have probably had

22     changed his shirt; right?

23        A.   Well, I don't know.

24        Q.   Are you able to tell us now how much time passed from that

25     attempt to break through and the execution?

Page 18411

 1        A.   About an hour or an hour and a half.

 2        Q.   I would like to shed a little bit more light on that very moving

 3     event that must have left a mark on everyone.  Who was there among the

 4     uniformed armed persons?  Did you recognise them?  And how did they

 5     behave?

 6        A.   The people that I knew who were there where the minibus arrived

 7     were Mitar Ljubinac, aka Grof; Mladen, I don't know his last name but I

 8     know that he was a taxi-driver in Rogatica; Boban Planojevic; Spiro,

 9     Dragoje Paunovic; and Rajko Kusic.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And when the tragic command was issued, who was

11     present there at that point in time?  Who issued the command?

12        A.   I already said that.  Dragoje Paunovic, aka Spiro, issued the

13     command to the Serb soldier who was walking ahead of us to kill us, and

14     he himself also took part in the execution by firing bursts of fire.  I

15     don't know if anybody issued the order to him in turn because I joined

16     that group of people later who had been on human-shield duty.  That's it.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that he told Slavisa Vukojevic, "Kill

18     them," and did you hear him say, "I will take that decision"?

19        A.   I did hear him say that, but I don't know who the man involved

20     was.  I don't know Slavisa Vukojevic.  At a later date, when I heard his

21     description of the man and roughly the age, the conclusion was drawn that

22     the man was Slavisa Vukojevic, but I simply can't confirm that.  I have

23     never known the man.  As for the command, I've already described how it

24     was given.

25        Q.   Fair enough as far as Slavisa goes.  But did you hear him say, "I

Page 18412

 1     will make that decision"?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D04179.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you testify before the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the

 6     trial against this Spiro person?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up this document,

 9     please.  I do believe we only have the English version.  Can we have page

10     7 of the document.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Where was Rajko Kusic when the shooting took place?

13        A.   I didn't understand the question.

14        Q.   Where was Rajko Kusic when the shooting took place?

15        A.   I can't answer the question.  I don't know.

16        Q.   But he wasn't present there, was he?

17        A.   I don't know if he was.  I didn't see him.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now focus on the part starting with "accused"

19     which is line 10 of the second paragraph starting with the word

20     "Accused ..."

21             [In English] [As read] "compatibility of the statements of the

22     eye-witnesses that the accused had a yellow band around his head, that he

23     had a Motorola (two-way) hand-held radio which clearly differed him from

24     the other soldiers present that day, that he stated, 'I decide on this'

25     and 'kill them,' 'Spiro is firing' and that he personally gave the order

Page 18413

 1     to one of the present soldiers to take the detained civilians to a nearby

 2     meadow after which he ordered and participated in their execution,

 3     clearly leads to the conclusion that the accused had committed the

 4     criminal offence concerned exactly in the manner as established in the

 5     contested verdict."

 6             [Interpretation] Apparently this is the appeals judgement or the

 7     final judgement in the case against Spiro.  Can you look further down

 8     where mention is made of Spiro's injuries, et cetera, and that's the bit

 9     where you say that he was injured.  Is it true that you heard or that it

10     was heard that when the shooting started somebody radioed in a message

11     of, "Who is shooting?"  And the response was, "Spiro's shooting."  And

12     then the question was, "Who's asking?"  And the answer, "Rajko Kusic is."

13     This is what you stated in your 23rd January 1999 statement, paragraph

14     33.

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16        Q.   In other words, Kusic was not there at that point and did not

17     expect that any sort of shooting took place and asked that he be told who

18     was behind the shooting?

19        A.   I don't know what this is about.  I have already answered the

20     question.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bazdar.  Thank you for answering my questions and

22     please don't hold it against me for putting questions to you because I'd

23     rather not put any questions to victims if possible at all.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I've just a couple of points to raise in

Page 18414

 1     re-examination.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 3        Q.   Yesterday, Mr. Bazdar, it was put to you by Mr. Karadzic - this

 4     was at page 18396 - that Radisav Ljubinac, nicknamed Pjano, Mr. Karadzic

 5     said:

 6             "Why was that his nickname?  Was he well-known as an alcoholic?"

 7             So it was suggested to you that he was an alcoholic.  Now, this

 8     is the same person who in your statement told you that he was delivering

 9     orders of Rajko Kusic; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did he drive the bus to the site where you were unloaded in the

12     presence of Rajko Kusic?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He drove the minibus.  He picked us up on

14     that day just before the execution took place, and he told us that he had

15     Rajko Kusic's order that he should take us over there because actions

16     were to take place.

17        Q.   Did he appear to be drunk or intoxicated at any stage?

18        A.   No.  Whenever I met him, he never left that impression.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, 23454.

20        Q.   The document which is about to arrive is dated the 30th of May,

21     1994.  It's signed -- it appears to be signed by Major Rajko Kusic,

22     commander, and it bears a stamp.  Could you have a look at that document.

23     Could you confirm for me what it appears to be.

24        A.   Based on what the heading says, it's the proposal for promotion

25     to the rank of a reserve sergeant first class.

Page 18415

 1        Q.   Does the name of that man match the name you've described as

 2     being the person who drove the bus to the location where you were

 3     unloaded in Rajko Kusic's presence?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Under item 7 does it suggest that he has been a member of the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska since the 20th of May, 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   On the next page, Major Rajko Kusic appears to give reasons for

 9     the promotion.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could move to the next page in B/C/S, please,

11     and to the third page in English, please.

12        Q.   Could I draw your attention to the second paragraph of that and

13     is it suggested there that this man since the beginning of the war he was

14     a member of a reconnaissance platoon with whom he took part in every

15     battle for the liberation of the Serb territory of Rogatica municipality.

16     And it goes on to commend him for his exceptional bravery and abilities.

17     Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Now, is that consistent with your observation that he was

20     receiving orders from Rajko Kusic on the day of the execution?

21        A.   Yes, of course.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that in evidence, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  I've no further questions in --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 18416

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Sorry.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P3287.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

 5     questions.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender into evidence the

 7     judgement rendered by the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and can we ask the

 8     witness to explain to us what the meaning of the word "Pjano" is which

 9     prompted my question about alcoholism.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need -- it's sensible to have it or we

11     can have assistance from the interpreters.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, very well.  It's only available in English.  I

13     was just going to correct the record.  I don't believe there's anything

14     on the judgement of the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina to suggest it is an

15     appellate-level judgement.  I didn't see anything on it to suggest that

16     myself.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But you --

18             MR. GAYNOR:  There's no objection to its admission whatsoever.

19             JUDGE KWON:  That judgement will be admitted.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1666, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bazdar, could you assist us in terms of the

22     meaning of "Pjano," what does it mean?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the word "Pjano," there is

24     not much I can tell you.  I'm not a linguist able to explain meanings of

25     words.  Besides, the background of a nickname can be of any sort.  Who

Page 18417

 1     knows why the individual was nicknamed that way.  I think you should ask

 2     a professional for an answer.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But my question was:  In general "Pjano" is

 4     something that may be related to alcoholism?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be, but not necessarily.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Fair enough.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I assist?  The last sentence of

 8     the quoted passage states that it was well established in the contested

 9     verdict, which is a clear reference to the fact that this is an appeals

10     judgement --

11             JUDGE KWON:  That can be established separately.

12             Thank you, Mr. Bazdar.  That concludes your evidence and I

13     appreciate your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

14     And please have a safe journey back home.  You may be excused.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for calling me to appear.

16     I will be only happy to respond to any future calls.  I hope that I have

17     contributed with my evidence to the process of shedding light on the

18     truth, and I hope that my testimony will assist you in making the right

19     determination in the Karadzic case.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, by all means.  Thank you, Mr. Bazdar.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I'd like to make a clarification in

24     terms of Your Honour's inquiry in terms of the protective measures for

25     the previous witness.  If we could go into private session for this.

Page 18418

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will go into private session briefly.

 2                           [Private session]

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Page 18419

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yesterday the accused asked to be allowed to

 6     interview Witness KDZ-601 before the start of his testimony and requested

 7     that this interview be conducted in this building.  The Registry's

 8     position is that only certain categories of witnesses may be interviewed

 9     by the accused in this building and that in any event protected witnesses

10     may not be interviewed in person at the United Nations Detention Unit or

11     in this Tribunal building.  The Registry has emphasized that it was

12     logistically impossible to ensure the adequate respect of the protective

13     measures in place should the accused interview protected witnesses who

14     are -- whose identities are protected in this building or at the UNDU.

15             The Chamber further wishes to note that the consistent case law

16     in relation to videolink and that videolink safe-guards all the rights of

17     the accused as much as in person, interviews, or testimony.  The Chamber,

18     therefore, denies the accused's request that the interview be conducted

19     in the building.  However, to accommodate a videolink conference between

20     the accused and the witness, that may be arranged tomorrow at 8.00 a.m.

21     the Chamber hereby orders that the proceedings will commence at 10.00

22     a.m. tomorrow morning.

23             We will go into private session briefly.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 18420

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19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then the Chamber will now issue an oral ruling on

21     the Prosecution's request for protective measures for Witness -- no.

22     Just hold on.  Let me consult my colleagues.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, you are right.  I was confused the

25     other way around.  This is about Mr. Sead Hodzic.

Page 18421

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honours, I appreciate difficulty when it

 2     involves numbers.  You see, I have that defect or issue quite often

 3     myself.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             The -- it's an oral ruling on the Prosecution's request for

 6     protective measures for Witness Sead Hodzic.  The Chamber notes that the

 7     Prosecution met with the witness yesterday and that witness requested to

 8     testify with protective measures, expressing concerns for his safety and

 9     that of his family should he testify in public session in this case

10     without protective measures.  The accused opposed the Prosecution's

11     request.

12             The Chamber recalls that according to the Tribunal's

13     jurisprudence the party requesting protective measures must demonstrate

14     the existence of an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare

15     of the witness or the witness's family should it become publicly known

16     that he or she testified before the Tribunal.  The Chamber has considered

17     the reasons provided by the witness for the request of protective

18     measures, as set out in the Prosecution's oral submission, and notes that

19     the witness is currently residing in a third country and that none of his

20     family is currently residing in the municipality about which the witness

21     will testify.

22             The Chamber is not satisfied that there is an objectively

23     grounded risk to the security or welfare of the witness or his family.

24     Further, the Chamber notes that neither the witness nor his family has

25     been subject to any threats which could constitute an objectively

Page 18422

 1     grounded risk to their security or welfare.  The Chamber is, therefore,

 2     not satisfied that the granting of the protective measures for the

 3     witness on the Rule 75 is necessary and appropriate.  The Prosecution's

 4     request is therefore denied.

 5             And for the next matter we need to go into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 18423

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21                           [Open session]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll break for 15 minutes until we hear the

23     next witness's evidence.

24                           --- Recess taken at 9.48 a.m.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 18424

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.07 a.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If you could take the solemn declaration, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

 8     comfortable.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, with the witness here we had an

11     opportunity, I want to advise you, to discuss Your Honours' ruling and of

12     course Mr. Hodzic completely understands but he did raise one matter that

13     he would like us to put before the Trial Chamber and a small matter that

14     we've discussed with Mr. Robinson and I'd like to go into private session

15     to deal with that, if I may.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18425











11  Page 18425 redacted. Private session.















Page 18426

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton, we are now in open session.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 8                           WITNESS:  SEAD HODZIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

11        Q.   Mr. Hodzic, first of all now, can you hear me in a language you

12     understand?

13        A.   I can, yes.

14        Q.   So then, Mr. Hodzic, do you recall giving a statement to

15     representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor in May of 2000?

16        A.   I did provide a statement, yes.

17        Q.   And did you review that statement yesterday in preparation to

18     come here today?

19        A.   I did, yes.

20        Q.   And did you make a number of corrections to that statement?

21        A.   Yes, there were some printing errors and I think we corrected

22     that.  We'll see.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now so that we could go through these corrections in

24     the most expeditious way, I wonder if we could call up

25     65 ter number 22529, and I actually think everybody has the paragraph

Page 18427

 1     numbered copy because it was uploaded yesterday.  And I'd like to see it

 2     in both Bosnian and English, and perhaps I could run quickly through

 3     those changes, Mr. Hodzic, and you could let us know if they're correct.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Mr. Clerk, I'll direct you to the particular

 5     paragraphs by number.

 6        Q.   First in paragraph 4 you asked for the words "skilled carpenter"

 7     to be changed to "construction worker."

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Could you just enlarge paragraph 4.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Is that change -- that first change correct?  Did you hear me,

10     Mr. Hodzic?

11        A.   Yes, but I don't see that it's changed here.

12        Q.   Ah-ha.  Mr. Hodzic, we didn't make, as you remember, any

13     handwritten or other annotations.  What I propose to do with you is go

14     through those changes so that they appear on the trial transcript, and

15     after your testimony we can all make sure we understand your written

16     evidence with those changes that you talk about today incorporated in

17     them.

18        A.   [In English] Okay.

19        Q.   If I have the change to paragraph 4 correct, perhaps we could go

20     on to paragraph number 6, which appears on this same page.  And in

21     paragraph 6 after the second sentence which ends in the words "... made

22     my way back home to Zaklopaca ...," you wanted to insert the following:

23             "The local Territorial Defence had surrounded our barracks and

24     given an ultimatum that we either leave or face an attack.  I left with

25     five days still on my national service tour, so technically it was

Page 18428

 1     desertion."

 2        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Then if we could flip over, please, to paragraph

 4     26.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             Mr. Karadzic, are you following with numbered paragraphs?  Thank

 7     you.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  At paragraph --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   At paragraph 26, instead of the word "JNA" in the first sentence,

12     you wished to change that so that it read:  "Older men in SMB uniforms

13     who looked like they might have been JNA reserves."  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Then further in that paragraph I'd like to know whether the

16     sentence in that same paragraph that reads "I saw that those were regular

17     JNA troops ...," does that sentence still apply or should it be deleted?

18        A.   It means the same thing that I said.  These are reservists in

19     military uniforms.  This was not the JNA.  There was no regular JNA

20     barracks in the area of Milici.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now without displaying the next paragraphs, I think

22     we could perhaps go through a little more quickly.  In paragraph 30 you

23     wanted to note for the sake of clarity that the B/C/S translation of the

24     English sentence "along the Jadar" uses words in your language to

25     describe you moving upstream, but actually the words used in your

Page 18429

 1     language should describe you moving downstream because that's what you

 2     were doing at the time.  Correct?

 3        A.   Correct, downstream.

 4        Q.   And in paragraph 31 you referred to seeing two men in camouflage

 5     uniforms and you wanted that to be changed to SMB uniforms.  And in the

 6     same paragraph where it says "they had red ribbon tied on their arms,"

 7     you wanted "arms" to be changed to read "epaulettes."  Correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   In paragraph 36 the sentence which ends with "I saw the body of a

10     man lying on the floor," the word "floor" should be changed to "ground."

11        A.    Correct.

12        Q.   In paragraph 37 the sentence that reads "this was down by the

13     junction in the village" should be completely changed to read "this was

14     at the edge of my village not far from my house," referring to a coffee

15     shop.  Correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   In paragraph 43, the man's name "Rado" that appears should

18     actually be changed to "Rade."

19        A.   Correct, his name is Rade.

20        Q.   And finally, in paragraph 51, the name "Milisici" should be

21     changed to "Milici"; correct?

22        A.   Correct, Milici.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So taking into account these corrections, is the

24     statement that you gave to the ICTY accurate to the best of your

25     recollection?

Page 18430

 1        A.   Yes, correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, then I would ask that 65 ter number

 4     22529 be admitted as a Prosecution exhibit, and the Prosecution will

 5     upload a redacted version of that as soon as possible.  And 22529 is the

 6     paragraph-numbered copy, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And if you are asked, you would answer

 8     the same questions, Mr. Hodzic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             So we'll admit two versions of the statement.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, and pardon me, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  No problem.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  The redacted version will be P3284 and the public

15     version will be P3285.

16             JUDGE KWON:  The first one will be put under seal?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

20             To summarise that written evidence, then, this witness is one of

21     the survivors of the attack by Bosnian Serb forces on the village of

22     Zaklopaca on 16 May, 1992, and the killing of more than 60 of its

23     inhabitants, Muslim men, women, and children.  This is scheduled incident

24     A 15.2 of the indictment against Dr. Karadzic.  The witness describes the

25     take-over of the town of Vlasenica in April 1992, the subsequent call by

Page 18431

 1     Serb forces for the surrender of weapons, attacks by Serb forces on

 2     neighbouring villages culminating in the attack on the witness's own

 3     village.  The witness narrowly escaped being shot and after it was safe

 4     met up with other survivors and returned to Zaklopaca to see bodies of

 5     villagers of all ages lying in groups around the area.  Many had been

 6     shot through the mouth, the backs of their heads had been blown away.

 7     The witness identified 58 victims of the attack that day, including a

 8     number of children under the age of 10.  In the days following the attack

 9     from their hiding place, the witness and other survivors saw Zaklopaca

10     looted and the bodies of those killed collected by a tractor and dumped

11     into a mass grave in the village.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I'd just like to ask you a small number of

13     additional questions based on the written evidence that we've just filed.

14     In your written evidence at paragraph 13 you referred to Vlasenica being

15     occupied by Bosnian Serb forces and the JNA Novi Sad Corps.  I wonder,

16     what makes you say that it was the Novi Sad Corps in particular that was

17     involved in the take-over?

18        A.   Two days after the fall of Vlasenica I went to town, I heard that

19     they were not interfering with anyone.  I went to town.  I knew driver

20     Redzep Hadzic who was a driver in the Gradjevinsko construction firm.

21     There was a tank parked next to his house some 20 metres away and that is

22     exactly above the Boksit-Vlasenica football club soccer stadium and we

23     chatted, he was a nice man, and he told us he was a reserve officer from

24     the JNA, a tank operator.  And he told us an interesting story.  He said

25     that we expected major resistance while entering Vlasenica, however,

Page 18432

 1     nobody fired a single bullet which is strange to us but we had orders to

 2     shoot because we were expecting this attack, but we had information that

 3     you were killing Serbs, slitting their throats, but we didn't see any of

 4     that here and that's strange to us.  And while he was staying here he

 5     told us the following, "Take care of your -- be careful of your

 6     neighbours when we leave."  And he said he was from the Novi Sad Corps

 7     and that the Novi Sad Corps occupied Vlasenica and they said they were

 8     going to withdraw in a week and the equipment and all the weapons they

 9     were going to leave it to the local Serbs, which is what they did.  That

10     is the reason why I said what I said about the Novi Sad Corps.

11        Q.   Just two things, Mr. Hodzic.  If you could not speak so quickly,

12     then my colleagues in the booths around us would be able to translate

13     your words very easily.  And the second thing is you've just referred to

14     a nice man with whom you've chatted who relayed this information to you

15     and I'm wondering, because you've not said it, this nice man who was a

16     reserve officer in the JNA, a tank operator, where was he at the time you

17     were speaking with him?

18        A.   He was next to the tank which was parked above the stadium, which

19     I already said was next to Redzep Hadzic's house.

20        Q.   Now --

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.

22             Thank you.

23        Q.   We'll just move on -- oh, actually, I have one other question.

24     That tank that this man was beside at the moment that you spoke with him,

25     was that the only tank you saw in Vlasenica?

Page 18433

 1        A.   Yes, and it was just because I was in that area.  I didn't really

 2     walk around town or go to the surrounding check-points that existed.

 3        Q.   In paragraphs 17 and 18 of your statement you talk about the

 4     surrender of weapons to Serb forces, and I'd like to know:  Did you

 5     surrender any weapons?

 6        A.   I didn't have any weapons.

 7        Q.   To go further, in paragraph 24 you talk about the attack on

 8     Zutica by Serb forces, saying that people had been killed, women raped,

 9     and a truck-load of men taken away and never seen again.  How did you

10     know about that?

11        A.   Because the Serbs came with two buses and brought those people

12     who had survived, they brought them to our village and asked us to help

13     them, to give them accommodation, food, clothes, and so on.  And one of

14     these families came to my house and they talked about this, and the men

15     were showing us the bruises they had.

16        Q.   In paragraph 39 of your statement you name your cousin and say

17     that he later died in Srebrenica.  Do you know when exactly he died?

18        A.   He separated from his wife with the fall of Srebrenica.  His wife

19     and three children went to Tuzla.  He tried to cross through the woods,

20     but he never was seen again and his body was never found.  She told me

21     about it.  This is information that I heard from her.

22        Q.   In paragraph 54 you describe how after Gradina fell you and other

23     survivors fled to the woods and lived there for four days.  And then in

24     paragraph 55 you say you began to starve so a large number of the

25     surviving women and children surrendered to Serb forces and were taken to

Page 18434

 1     Susica.  How do you know that was what happened to the women and children

 2     who surrendered?

 3        A.   Because my mother was among them, also my sister-in-law, because

 4     it was very difficult for them to survive.  Men could walk around the

 5     woods and manage somehow, but not women and children.  So the women and

 6     children surrendered at the first check-point and they were taken to

 7     Susica.  And then when I saw my mother a few months later, I heard that

 8     she was transferred by bus.  Two buses were sent to Cerska and two of

 9     them for Kladanj --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hodzic, the interpreters have difficulty

12     following you, since you are speaking very fast.  Could you repeat your

13     answer from the part:  Two buses were sent to Cerska ...

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two buses from the Susica camp were

15     sent to Cerska, and in those two buses my mother and my sister-in-law

16     were there, among the other people.  Well, another two buses were sent to

17     Kladanj.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honours, I just see the time.  I wonder

21     if I may continue, given that we've had a short pause earlier on --

22             JUDGE KWON:  How much more do you have?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  About seven minutes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

Page 18435

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Now, you mentioned in your statement that you lost 28 family

 4     members in the attack on the village among those who were killed.  Do you

 5     know whether their remains have been located?

 6        A.   Yes, they were, the remains were found only in 2006.  They were

 7     found in a strange way.  A man, a Muslim man, who was really well off

 8     paid off one of the Serbs to tell him where the grave was relocated to,

 9     because the bodies from the first grave from I don't know which year were

10     transferred to a different grave.  Because in 1993 people were brought to

11     our village from other Serbian municipalities and areas to live in our

12     village, and that was probably the reason why they transferred the grave.

13     Only in 2006 was it discovered.  In 2008 a collective funeral was held

14     for all those people in Zaklopaca, which I attended.

15        Q.   As far as you knew in 1992, did your village have any kind of

16     organised defence whatsoever?

17        A.   No.  Because during the attack no one had weapons, they didn't

18     have anything to fire from.  Civilians were killed, women, the elderly,

19     and children.

20        Q.   This last question might be a pretty hard one, but I wonder if

21     you can try and put into words for us the impact, the experience of

22     surviving this attack, the sight of your killed neighbours and family and

23     their loss has had on you and your family.  What has it meant to you?

24        A.   I cried for days and to this very day images keep coming back to

25     me and yesterday after we went through all of that, I really couldn't

Page 18436

 1     sleep.  Any time I give a statement this happens over and over again.  It

 2     had a very profound effect on me.  I left my country because of that and

 3     (redacted) which is where I live. And believe

 4     me, I had to go so far because that helps me to keep that at a distance.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hodzic.  I don't have any other questions for you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no associated exhibits that you

22     are going to tender?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct, there's none.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Then before -- Mr. Hodzic, before Mr. Karadzic

25     begins his cross-examination, we are going to have a break.

Page 18437

 1             We'll have a break till 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hodzic.

 8        A.   Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.

 9        Q.   Let us establish the truth together and this is my intention in

10     putting questions to you.  It is my no means my intention to attack you

11     or contradict you.  If at any point you feel that we need to move into

12     closed session, please say so.  Is it true that you were born in

13     Zaklopaca and can you tell us where were your parents born?

14        A.   My mother was born in the village of Skugric, municipality of

15     Vlasenica, whereas my father was born in Zaklopaca.

16        Q.   I see that quite a few people who had moved to Zaklopaca came

17     from Kladusa and other places?

18        A.   No, there was only one person, Mustafa Mahmutovic, the late

19     Mustafa Mahmutovic, who came from Kladusa.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Probably I need to emphasize once again, Mr. Hodzic,

21     that it's important for you and also for the accused to put a pause

22     between the questions and the answers because both of you are speaking

23     the same language and which has to be translated into one of the working

24     languages.  So you need to pause, otherwise the interpreters would have

25     difficulty because of the overlapping.  And slow down as well.  Thank

Page 18438

 1     you, Mr. Hodzic.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   What was this Mustafa's father's name, do you know?

 6        A.   I don't.

 7        Q.   Is he Mahmutovic or Mehmedovic?

 8        A.   Mahmutovic.

 9        Q.   And there was no one Mustafa Mehmedovic in Zaklopaca?

10        A.   No, there was Mustafa Berbic.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             In paragraph 7 of your statement, or rather, in paragraph 5, that

13     you were the only Muslim in the school in Milici and you never had any

14     difficulties with that.  Was Milici predominantly or 100 per cent Serb

15     populated?

16        A.   Milici has 99 per cent Serb inhabitants.  There were some

17     immigrants who worked in the bauxite mine there who were given

18     accommodation in Zaklopaca.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Where you say in paragraph 11 that some policemen

20     from Milici promised that they would stop the night-time shooting and

21     seize weapons from Serbs, were these policemen also Serbs by ethnicity?

22        A.   Of course.  There was only one Muslim policeman, Mehmet Kula, who

23     worked at the police station in Milici.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 7 you say that the relations between the

25     Muslims and the Serbs were good and that you felt that it was the

Page 18439

 1     elections that had given rise to tensions between these two ethnic

 2     communities; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes, precisely.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You are young, but nevertheless did you hear what the

 5     situation was like in Vlasenica in the Second World War?

 6        A.   I didn't hear much, but I heard stories which were true stories,

 7     as there was evidence for it, that during the Second World War five

 8     people were executed in Zaklopaca as well.

 9        Q.   Do you know how the Serbs fared in this Birac region during

10     World War II?

11        A.   No, unfortunately I don't.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Today at page 23 you entered a correction where you

13     say that the local Territorial Defence issued you with an ultimatum that

14     you should - and I'm going to read it in English so that it would be

15     better interpreted than I would do:

16             [In English] [As read] "The local Territorial Defence has

17     surrendered our barracks and given an ultimatum that we either leave or

18     face an attack.  I left with five days still on my national service tour,

19     so technically it was desertion."

20             [Interpretation] Is what you are saying here in fact that you

21     were told that you should leave the area or else come under attack?  Is

22     it true that the population was told that they should leave or is it --

23     or is my understanding wrong?

24        A.   Your understanding is wrong.  I'm referring to a place in

25     Slovenia where I served my obligatory military service in the JNA.

Page 18440

 1        Q.   So it was the JNA that was given the ultimatum?

 2        A.   Yes.  Major Nikola Smirko's family was taken prisoner in --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name of the

 4     location --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then he was told he should

 6     surrender the barracks, which he did.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters were not able to catch the name of

 8     the location.  Could you repeat it.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The location is Tolmin in Slovenia.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you agree that it was not only the elections that led to

13     tensions between these communities, but what followed them, the break-up

14     of Yugoslavia and the differences between the SDA and the SDS over the

15     issue of the country remaining within Yugoslavia?

16        A.   I do not agree.  What I said was based on the fact that the local

17     Serbs when I returned from my military service reproached us after the

18     Serb referendum that we were causing problems by the fact that we did not

19     participate in the referendum.

20        Q.   So this wasn't shortly after the elections, but in the autumn of

21     1991; right?

22        A.   What are you referring to when you say "the autumn of 1991"?

23        Q.   The elections took place in 1990.  The election campaign was

24     quite correct, the co-operation between the SDA and the SDS was decent,

25     they agreed on a coalition.  Then in the course of 1991, the Muslim and

Page 18441

 1     Croatian populations in Bosnia opted for a secession and the Serbs opted

 2     for staying within Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So it isn't fair to say that it was the elections that led to the

 5     tensions, but the issue of Bosnia's fate; right?

 6        A.   I'm telling you what was my experience from my contacts with the

 7     neighbours.  During the elections I was in the JNA.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 10 you say that the Serbs kept

 9     criticising you, that's to say the Muslims, for the fact that they had

10     voted to break away from Yugoslavia; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In line 28, that's paragraph 13, it's -- that's paragraph 13,

13     line 28, it is for the first time that you are mentioning the tank

14     operator and the information he gave you.  Why is that so?

15        A.   Because nobody ever asked me about it.

16        Q.   You do not mean to say surely that Madam Edgerton put a leading

17     question about this to you?

18        A.   No.  It was as we were discussing these matters that the issue

19     cropped up and she asked me where I got the information from.

20        Q.   You say that you were afraid of the Serbs opening fire at night,

21     but were the Serbs not also afraid of the Muslims and did they also not

22     have their village guards in their own villages?

23        A.   There was no need for them to fear anything.  They did not --

24     they were not the object of fire as we were.

25        Q.   Well, it is difficult to say that fear is -- every fear is

Page 18442

 1     rational.  Did you have information to the effect that Serbs were

 2     cautious about what the Muslims' intentions were?

 3        A.   No, I didn't have information to that effect.

 4        Q.   Were you -- let us go back to that issue for a moment.  Were you

 5     the -- were you on your own when you deserted the ranks of the JNA or

 6     were there others with you?

 7        A.   Many of us left the ranks of the JNA.

 8        Q.   Do you not agree that every proper army would dispatch a patrol

 9     to hunt you down and bring you before a court of law?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You came to Zaklopaca in the autumn of 1991; is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Were you familiar with the negotiations that were under way

15     between the SDA and the SDS in Vlasenica about the transformation of

16     Vlasenica into Milici, Serbian Vlasenica, and Muslim Vlasenica?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.  When in paragraph 13 you say that the JNA had taken

19     control of the town, you say it was the Bosnian Serb forces and the

20     Novi Sad Corps and that they dismissed all the Muslims.  You should know

21     that both the Muslim and the Serb sides agreed to the existence of

22     Serbian Vlasenica, Muslim Vlasenica, Serbian police station, and a Muslim

23     police station.  And you should know that the Serbian policemen stayed

24     with the Serbian police station and the Muslims were supposed to have

25     their own stations in Dzemat and in the very centre of town.

Page 18443

 1        A.   I find this ludicrous.  Believe me when I tell you that I have

 2     never heard of such a thing.

 3        Q.   I can very well understand that you didn't hear of something like

 4     this, but then this statement of yours that the Muslims were laid off

 5     is -- has no foundation.  Do you not know that the Muslims worked and

 6     lived in Vlasenica, some of them even up until the 6th of August?

 7        A.   Perhaps some of them did who were in mixed marriages, but I do

 8     know that a camp was set up in Vlasenica and perhaps these Muslims were

 9     in that camp rather than in their work-places.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Were you aware of the military organisation and

11     arming of the Muslims in Vlasenica, of the staff of the Patriotic League,

12     its unit, were you aware of these things?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You say that on the 21st of April the JNA, the

15     Novi Sad Corps occupied Vlasenica.  Do you know that at that time the JNA

16     was a legitimate military force in that area?

17        A.   A legitimate military force that only Serbs took part in; is that

18     what you're saying?

19        Q.   Well, if you fled from the JNA, Mr. Hodzic, then only Serbs had

20     to stay.  Had you stayed in the JNA, you would have been that JNA; right?

21        A.   I would be in the JNA but I'd have to fire at my own people.

22        Q.   That is your assumption, that your people would have to fire at

23     the JNA, they would have to clash with their own army; right?  On the

24     basis of what would the Muslims and the JNA clash if you were in the JNA?

25        A.   Everything was known by then.  It was already known that the JNA

Page 18444

 1     would remain only Serbian.  That's my answer.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In the same paragraph you say that some people

 3     changed their name into the White Eagles, and you say that you saw some

 4     people that you had known before, you saw them wearing different uniforms

 5     and different insignia.  Can you tell us what these insignia looked like

 6     and to what extent they differed from the insignia of the Novi Sad Corps?

 7        A.   Sir, the regular police force at the time had the same police

 8     uniforms but they just had white ribbons on their sleeves and they also

 9     had eagles, and they called themselves Eagles.  And they held this

10     entrance into Vlasenica a kilometre away from the centre by

11     Zvonko Bajagic's house.  That is where I met the man whose car I

12     repaired.

13        Q.   Thank you.  As a soldier, can you tell us why a ribbon is placed

14     in a particular spot on the body.  Is that for the sake of recognition so

15     that you would not fire at your own?

16        A.   That's what we did during tactical training in the former JNA.

17     We wore the same uniforms, but only our ribbons differed.  That would be

18     it.

19        Q.   Thank you.  These people you saw wearing these ribbons, who did

20     they want to be different from?

21        A.   I don't know.

22        Q.   What kind of uniforms did the Muslim territorials wear?

23        A.   Clarify your question.  You mean once the war started or before

24     the war?

25        Q.   Well, before the war Muslim reservists of the JNA, did they keep

Page 18445

 1     the same uniforms at home like Serb reservists did or was there a

 2     difference?

 3        A.   Muslim reservists that I know from the experience of my father

 4     and my uncle, they had uniforms at home and then they would wear them

 5     when they were called up for training exercises, whatever.

 6        Q.   And they were identical to the ones worn by Serbs?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So these people who had uniforms like that felt it was necessary

 9     to use a ribbon as a marking so that they would not fire at each other.

10     Why did they do that, because of who?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  We've been -- these questions sometimes have been

14     rather speculative, and I would submit this one calls for nothing other

15     than speculation.  It's impossible for the witness to be able to answer

16     that.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can rephrase.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

19        Q.   Are you trying to say that they did it for the sake of fashion or

20     did they wear these ribbons to distinguish themselves from the Muslim

21     fighters?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Same objection, Your Honour.  It calls for

23     speculation.  How can this witness possibly know why these other people

24     may have worn ribbons?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Based upon his experience, he may or may not answer

Page 18446

 1     the question.  I'll leave it in -- leave it to him.

 2             Mr. Hodzic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to respond to

 4     Mr. Karadzic.

 5             Mr. Karadzic, do you really think that the Serbs in Zaklopaca met

 6     with any resistance and that people met them there wearing uniforms and

 7     using weapons?  Sir, it was civilians who were attacked there and you

 8     have to know that.  The Serbs who attacked Zaklopaca wore ribbons.  I saw

 9     that very well.  I'm not blind.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Mr. Hodzic, we are talking about the

12     municipality of Vlasenica.  The Muslims in the municipality of Vlasenica

13     in the villages, were they organised and armed?  Yes or no.  You don't

14     have to know.  Just say yes or no or I don't know.

15        A.   The answer is:  I don't know.  I did not notice that.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know or hear of Hasan Efendic's telegrams on

17     the 12th of April and then on the 20th-something of April then on the

18     29th of April, issuing an order to attack the JNA and the Serbs?

19        A.   Sorry, I don't even know who Hasan Efendic is.

20        Q.   The head of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So

21     you do not know the reason why the JNA came on the 21st of April, why

22     they came to Vlasenica; right?

23        A.   I know what the man told me, the tank operator who entered

24     Vlasenica, and that is what I go by.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You say that Mustafa Mahmutovic, Mujaga Salihovic, or

Page 18447

 1     rather -- were detained -- or rather, you say that they were kept in

 2     detention but obviously they were brought in for an interview and

 3     released after a couple of hours; right?

 4        A.   Exactly.  Three days, taken away, taken back.

 5        Q.   For three days they were taken away and then brought back, they

 6     weren't kept for all of three days?  The answer was yes, that that was

 7     the case; right?

 8        A.   Yes, they did not keep them overnight.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now have in e-court 1D4073.

10             Did they tell you what they were interrogated about?

11        A.   Yes, Mustafa told us that they were forcing them to say that we

12     were making plans that we would kill the Serbs, that they were forcing

13     him to admit that he had weapons, that the that the man did not have.

14        Q.   What happened to Mustafa?

15        A.   Mustafa was killed on the 16th of May, 1992.  He was executed

16     with all the rest.

17        Q.   Let us look at page 2 and then it moves on to 3.  So it is the

18     bottom of page 2.  This is a proposal for bestowing a decoration on

19     civilian victims.  Let us see what the situation is like in respect of

20     Mustafa.  He is born in the area of Velika Kladusa.  His father's name is

21     so on and so forth.  And then we all see - I don't know whether we have a

22     translation of this -- actually, we don't have a translation yet.  I'm

23     going to read out the underlined section, the reasons why -- actually,

24     I'm going to read out this entire paragraph.

25             [As read] "Mustafa Mehmedovic, father's name Fejzo, posthumously

Page 18448

 1     is supposed to be decorated.  The mentioned person is born in the area of

 2     Velika Kladusa in 1950, father's name Fejzo, mother Rahima.  Over the

 3     last 20 or so years he lived in Zaklopaca.  He is a well-known

 4     socio-political worker and he intensified his activities and struggles

 5     for the interest of the Muslim people from the moment when the

 6     multi-party system was introduced.  From the first days he took part in

 7     the SDA and as a product of his selfless efforts and organisation of the

 8     Muslim people he won the confidence of voters and members of the organs.

 9     He was a member of the Executive Board and vice-president of the SDA of

10     Vlasenica.  He carried out thorough preparations for war as he bought two

11     weapons, and he figured particularly prominently in the organisation of

12     the people of Zaklopaca to resist the aggressor.  During the first half

13     of May 1992 he established a unit constituted of about 30 armed

14     neighbours and he relocated to the nearby mountain of Birac with the

15     intention of linking up ..."

16             Can we have the next page now, please.

17             " ...  with the same formation from the area of Derventa ..." and

18     so on and so forth.

19             "The representatives of the Derventa unit were not very steadfast

20     and therefore Mustafa's unit wavered.  Its members decided to go back to

21     the village.  The commander cautioned that there was a danger involved in

22     this total encirclement of Serb population.  He remained on his own and

23     nobody else thought that way and he did not want to remain an exception.

24     He felt that he was going back to a hornet's nest.  Unfortunately, his

25     assumptions proved to be true ...," and so on and so forth.

Page 18449

 1             Sir, Mustafa commanded a unit consisting of 30 men who went to

 2     the woods for no reason whatsoever, wishing to fight against the Serbs,

 3     and they did not link up with Derventa only because of the shortcomings

 4     of the Derventa unit.  Isn't that right?

 5        A.   No, because I don't know anything about this.  This is the first

 6     time I hear of it.  I find that very interesting, that I was not called

 7     up into that unit because I was very fit.  I was 19 years old.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  It is very important to see what you do not

 9     know as well.

10             Tell us, please, do you know who the remaining 30 persons were?

11        A.   I've already answered this question.  I don't know anything about

12     that unit and I find it strange, if it really did exist, that I was not

13     in it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 17 you said that weapons were

15     confiscated and you say that Serbs started going from village to village

16     in cars shouting through megaphones that all Muslims had to hand over

17     their weapons to the Serbs.  Was it the Serbs or was it the authorities?

18        A.   The Serb authorities that were guaranteeing peace and peaceful

19     coexistence, which ultimately did not happen.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And then in that situation you say in paragraph 23

21     you were at a loss as to what you should do and you decided to send

22     civilians, or rather, women and children away, but then this Serb, this

23     Serb whose name is Milenko Djuric, Gorcin, was trying to dissuade you.

24     He was suggesting that you stay on there and that people go on living

25     together; right?

Page 18450

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   You say that he was a respectable Serb and that he was respected

 3     by Serbs and Muslims; right?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   What party did he belong to?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   Then, nevertheless, you sent your family members away on trucks

 8     and they returned from Zivinice.  Was Zivinice already under Muslim

 9     control at that point in time?  Was Zivinice under Muslim control

10     throughout the war?

11        A.   At that point in time, Zivinice was free territory for us.  The

12     reason why we decided to send them was precisely that, namely, that

13     Gorcin had promised at a meeting that the shooting would abate, but that

14     did not happen.  That is why we sent our civilians to Zivinice.  I say

15     that one truck didn't want to stop in Zivinice at all.  It went to Zagreb

16     because that family, Dugalic, had a brother in Zagreb.  As for the other

17     three trucks, two in Zivinice and another one in Stupari near Kladanj.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You say in paragraph 24 on page 29 of today's

19     transcript from line 10 onwards that after the fighting in Zutica, which

20     was a Muslim village, quite a few people were arrested and civilians were

21     brought to you and put up in your village.  Did they bring civilians,

22     Muslims, from Zutica to Zaklopaca and were they put up in Muslim houses?

23        A.   From Zutica and Pomol, civilians in two trucks were brought to us

24     and it was precisely Gorcin who accompanied them and another man I knew

25     by sight but I can't remember his name, they handed them over to us so

Page 18451

 1     that we would help them and we put them up in different houses.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 25 you say that the people of Zutica

 3     were taken to Kasaba and then Cerska.  Both Zutica and Zaklopaca and

 4     Kasaba and Cerska, are they all within the municipality of Vlasenica?

 5        A.   At the time, yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  After the events that occurred in Zaklopaca, some

 7     people from Susica were taken to Kladanj and others to Cerska.  Do you

 8     know what the criterion was and do you know that they said themselves

 9     where they wanted to go?

10        A.   I don't know.  I don't know if they said where they wanted to go,

11     but my mother and my sister-in-law were in one of those two buses and

12     they were transferred to Cerska.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that shortly before the events in

14     Zaklopaca there was an attack on some Serb villages and there were many

15     civilian casualties?

16        A.   No, I've never heard of that.

17        Q.   And did you hear that because of that event a lynch mob had

18     formed in Milici and came to Zaklopaca to look for armed people, to

19     arrest them or kill them?

20        A.   A lynch mob formed?  This is the first time that I'm hearing of

21     this.  Can you please clarify exactly which of those Serb villages were

22     attacked.

23        Q.   Well, we're going to present evidence of that.  To me right now

24     it's important whether you know that or not.  And please tell me in your

25     statement - can we look at 22530, please, this is 65 ter - can you please

Page 18452

 1     tell us whether in your statement or interview you said that this group

 2     of enraged Chetniks barged in and they really created bedlam, is that

 3     what you said?

 4        A.   Perhaps I did describe it as an enraged mob, but they did barge

 5     in without any cause.  They rolled in with some ten cars and there were

 6     four or five in each one.

 7        Q.   Yes, this is that interview.  Can we look at Serbian page 3 and

 8     the English page 3 and then 4.

 9             Can you see where it says here that this group burst in -- yes,

10     this is the second line in the second.  "This group of enraged Chetniks

11     barged in."  Is that the description of the state that you saw them in?

12        A.   I did see them and I know by first and last name who those people

13     were and the speed that they were bursting in with made them seem like an

14     enraged mob.

15        Q.   And then you said that at the door you saw two armed men; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   They looked at you, you looked at them, they pointed their rifles

19     at you, and then they did not actually end up firing at you.  Did you

20     have any weapons in your house at the time?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So then they passed on; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  At a sign from a third man who was lying down at the corner

24     of the school with a machine-gun, M-70, he gave them a sign and he also

25     indicated to me that I should flee.

Page 18453

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And then you walked around the village and you were

 2     observing at -- you were observing what was happening?

 3        A.   No.  I then set off towards the first Muslim houses where I could

 4     then see people who were killed.  The first person who was alive that I

 5     met was Elvira Hreljic, who told me, "Run, they're killing all the men.

 6     Run wherever you can.  They're going to come and search the houses.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, could we have a redaction.  I think

13     from line 5 to the end of line 9.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I think that we should

16     both be careful.  I'm trying to point your attention to paragraph 34, but

17     I would not like that to be broadcast publicly.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

19        Q.   So you faced those people, they pointed their rifles, they didn't

20     shoot, they were just a few metres away from you.  They said, "What is

21     going on, what is this shooting?"  He didn't reply.  And then the person

22     who was laying down in paragraph 35 told you to flee?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And then you saw that some people had been shot from

25     hunting rifles, is that correct, or with hunting ammunition?

Page 18454

 1        A.   I saw that when the Serbs who had killed all of those people had

 2     withdrawn.

 3        Q.   And which formation has hunting rifles?

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8        Q.   In a number of places, for example, in paragraph 39 and 40 you

 9     say that you assumed that Haso was killed, you assumed that he was

10     covered by a blanket.  Did you actually see things or did you assume

11     things?

12        A.   Three people in the bed of the Jadar River some 150 metres away

13     from us, we saw them going to Haso Hodzic's house.  The door remained

14     open.  You could hear screaming.  And then after that, after five

15     minutes, three men started chasing Haso in front of them.  They were

16     literally pushing him in front of them.  They went some 30 metres ahead

17     to a trailer truck, and you could just hear a short burst of gun-fire.

18     And then a couple of minutes, they went towards the centre of the

19     village, and from Haso's house a little girl appeared, I don't know

20     whether it was his daughter or somebody else's daughter, with a blanket

21     and she went towards the trailer crying.

22        Q.   But you didn't see Haso when he was killed?  You just heard the

23     shots?

24        A.   Yes, that is right.  And then afterwards I saw him when he was

25     already dead.

Page 18455

 1        Q.   In paragraph 37 you say that you were listening to the radio and

 2     how Fadil Turkovic, the commander of the Muslim Green Berets had come to

 3     Zaklopaca and killed 65 villagers in retaliation.  This is paragraph 57.

 4     Did you not hear that Fadil Turkovic came to a Serb village and killed

 5     the inhabitants?

 6        A.   No, quite the opposite.  This is correct, and I have witnesses

 7     who were there.  We all heard on the transistor radio that the Serbian

 8     radio announced that Fadil Turkovic on such and such a day at such and

 9     such a time killed Muslims in such and such a village because they did

10     not want to join the Green Berets.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that before the war Fadil Turkovic

12     was chief of the public security station in Vlasenica?

13        A.   No.  I'm sorry, no, sir, he was not the chief.  He was the

14     commander of the station because that was the duty assigned to him along

15     the SDA line and the chief of the station was Rade Bjelanovic.

16        Q.   I'm sorry, you are correct.  So you confirm that he was the

17     commander of the station.  Do you know that he organised the people, he

18     armed the people, and then escaped in mid-April before the JNA came.  Of

19     course knowing about the telegrams because he received them.  Did you

20     know that he organised and armed the people and escaped before the JNA

21     arrived?

22        A.   I don't know about him arming them, but I know that he did end up

23     going to Zepa, where he was from.

24        Q.   And do you know that this was before the JNA came?

25        A.   No, I don't know that.

Page 18456

 1        Q.   You say in paragraph 35:

 2             "I went from the house towards the centre of the village to see

 3     what was going on.  There was still firing and there was chaos."

 4             So you were not running from the centre, you went to the centre

 5     of the village after these people did not shoot at you because you didn't

 6     have any weapons.  You went to the centre of the village.  Is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   No, towards the centre of the village --

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, what paragraph actually?  It's not paragraph

10     35 or is that the very last sentence in paragraph 35 that reads:

11             "I left my house and wanted to go to the village centre to see

12     what was happening"?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but in the Serbian original it

14     says:

15             "I did not want" -- oh, I see here that those two are joined --

16     no, they're not joined.  35 paragraph states that:

17             "I left my house and went towards the centre of the village to

18     see what was happening."

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Hodzic, you were not escaping but you went to the village to

21     see what was going on because you understood that they were not chasing

22     you and that they could have killed you had they wanted to?

23        A.   No, that is not correct.

24        Q.   So what it says in paragraph 35 is not correct?

25        A.   It's not correct the way you put it in your question.  You

Page 18457

 1     skipped the paragraph where it says that there was shooting -- they were

 2     shooting after me so I escaped to the centre of the village to escape the

 3     shooting.

 4        Q.   And that paragraph, when they fired at you, was not that one.

 5     You said immediately after paragraph 35 it says that's where they found

 6     you at the door and they did not shoot at you.  And then in paragraph 35,

 7     before there was any shooting at you, you said that you saw a man who was

 8     lying down and then you understood his sign to mean that they should go

 9     on - I don't want to mention any names.  And then you said:

10             "I left my house to the centre of the village -- towards the

11     centre of the village to see what was happening.  The shooting was still

12     going on and there was a lot of confusion."

13             Is this correct what you say or not?

14        A.   It is not correct because I came to Murat's house and then I said

15     what happened after that.  I was not going to the centre of the village,

16     I didn't manage to reach it.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21        A.   He was shooting after me.  I don't know why he didn't hit me.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, Your Honours, I wonder if we should have a

23     redaction at lines 17 to 20.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at

Page 18458

 1     1004072 [as interpreted], please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number again, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04072.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It seems that Mr. Robinson's advice didn't work.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In what way, if you can please tell

 6     me.  I'm trying to check the assertions of this witness and I'm more

 7     concerned about the statements that become evidence rather than

 8     documents, which I will easily check through other witnesses.  What I'm

 9     concerned about is the attention the Trial Chamber will pay to

10     generalised statements by witnesses and I -- actually, I can only go

11     through this statement with this witness, with nobody else.  I was given

12     advice, but my sense of danger from those statements is such that I feel

13     that I have to contest those statements.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Well, I won't repeat what I said earlier on, but

15     this is -- this seems to be a statement given by a third person, and what

16     I told you yesterday to you was to have a word with Mr. Robinson whether

17     or not you should put a statement of a third person to the current

18     witness.  And if yes, how to put it.  Please proceed.  You have five

19     minutes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you hear that -- or rather, do you see this statement of

22     Mr. Selimovic and these names that he mentions as an illegally armed

23     group?

24        A.   It is barely legible.

25        Q.   Fadil, son of Ibis from Zaklopaca; Hamidovic Huso who you mention

Page 18459

 1     from Zaklopaca; then Mustafa Avdic from Zaklopaca; then Avdic Selim from

 2     Zaklopaca, all of these names --

 3        A.   There is no Selim Avdic in Zaklopaca.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Next page in the English.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Amir Selimovic.  It's more legible in English.

 7        A.   I see it now.

 8        Q.   Salihovic, I guess, not Selimovic from Zaklopaca and then this

 9     one from Milici and so on.  Are you saying that you did not know that

10     this group was armed with weapons that are not personal weapons but

11     military ones?

12        A.   I repeat that I did not know of any group that had weapons and I

13     do not know of any statements.

14        Q.   Thank you.  But, Mr. Hodzic, if somebody is chasing after Huso

15     and Huso is armed and this somebody knows that Huso is armed, then you

16     should say that you do not know the reason why he is being chased?

17        A.   This is the first time that I hear of Huso being chased.  There

18     are two Husos.  Who do you have in mind?

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hodzic.  Now, this description, how the attack

20     started, that is page 7 in Serbian and 5 and 6 in English, your

21     statement.  You say that many cars passed by and in one case you say that

22     you were in the house shaving and in this other case you said something

23     different, in the interview you said something different.  How do you

24     explain these discrepancies, differences?

25        A.   I explained them because one statement is abbreviated and the

Page 18460

 1     other one is given at greater length because that's what I was asked to

 2     do.  Locations -- I was asked to say exactly where I was at every point

 3     in time.  That is why the statements differ.  One is shorter and the

 4     other one is more specific.

 5        Q.   On page 7 in this statement and on page 6 probably in English you

 6     say that you were confused and you remember that your mother told me in a

 7     hurried way to go because she was afraid for you.  You opened the door

 8     and you saw two men in camouflage uniforms.  On their sleeves they had

 9     red ribbons.  Why did your mother think that you were in danger rather

10     than her?  Was it because you had deserted or because you were a

11     participant in some agreements about organising a unit?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, could I just ask which statement we're

13     referring to?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 22529, Serb page 7, English page 5

15     and then 6.  This paragraph is probably on page 6.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Please go ahead.

19        A.   My mother feared for her own safety too because she grabbed her

20     daughter-in-law, who was preparing some food at the time, and as she was

21     running through the hallway with her she knocked at my door and said,

22     "Run, what are you waiting for?  There is shooting going on."  Go and

23     check this.  I did not organise anything.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies.  If I

Page 18461

 1     don't have any more time, I'm not going to call up any more documents.

 2     Then I'm going to do it with somebody else.

 3             Thank you, Mr. Hodzic.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, briefly, Your Honours.

 8                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Hodzic.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  If I can just have your indulgence for a moment,

11     Your Honours, to find the page reference.

12        Q.   Mr. Hodzic, Dr. Karadzic said to you on page 49, lines 23 and 24,

13     he said:

14             "And then you saw that some people had been shot from hunting

15     rifles, is that correct, or with hunting ammunition?"

16             Do you remember that question?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Now, having just reviewed yesterday your statement as we talked

19     about earlier today, do you recall ever having said that some people had

20     been shot from hunting rifles or with hunting ammunition?

21        A.   I think that I mentioned that.

22        Q.   And when you mentioned that, who were you referring to?

23        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

24        Q.   If you mentioned people who had been shot with hunting rifles or

25     with -- using hunting ammunition, were you referring to the large group

Page 18462

 1     of victims you thought -- you saw through the village or somebody else?

 2        A.   Five persons I saw with my own eyes:  Rifet Hodzic,

 3     Bajro Salihovic, Salko Salihovic, Becir Hodzic, and Bajro Salihovic.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  That clarifies that.  Now, in paragraph or at page 51

 5     Dr. Karadzic asked you the question:

 6             "In paragraph 37 you say that you were listening to the radio and

 7     how Fadil Turkovic, the commander of the Muslim Green Berets, had come to

 8     Zaklopaca and killed 65 villagers in retaliation."

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, was it not para 57?  I think he

10     clarified later on.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps so, and then it would be my mistake,

12     Your Honours.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Do you remember Dr. Karadzic referring you to paragraph 57 of

14     your statement?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We need to upload so that the witness can follow

16     what --

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I think so.

18             JUDGE KWON:  -- we are talking about.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Wonderful.  Thank you.

20        Q.   And Dr. Karadzic said -- oh, I see, Your Honours.  This is

21     paragraph 57.  "Did you not hear that Fadil Turkovic came to a Serb

22     village and killed the inhabitants."  And you said:

23             "No, this is quite the opposite and I have witnesses who were

24     there.  We all heard on the transistor radio announced that

25     Fadil Turkovic on such and such a day at such and such a time killed

Page 18463

 1     Muslims in such and such a village because they did not want to join the

 2     Green Berets."

 3             To your knowledge was that radio report true in any regard?

 4        A.   That is impossible.  For heaven's sake, why would a man come and

 5     kill his own men?  Fadil was not Mitar Simic's commander and the

 6     commander of the other Serbs.  Mr. Karadzic is saying that he was

 7     commander of the Green Berets and there were no Serbs among the

 8     Green Berets.  Why would Fadil come and kill Muslims, his own people.  It

 9     is the Serbs who did that and not Fadil.  This is a pure lie.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't have any other questions in re-direct,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bazdar, now your evidence has come to an end --

15             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, but that's Mr. Hodzic,

16     not Mr. Bazdar.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, I'm sorry.  My apologies, Mr. Hodzic.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  We've had a busy day.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we have.

20             Mr. Hodzic, your evidence has been concluded.  On behalf of my

21     colleagues and the Tribunal as a whole, I thank you for coming to

22     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you for your time, for listening to me.

24     Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And have a pleasant trip back to --

Page 18464

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  -- home.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honours, I just noticed in the

 4     transcript today at page 50, lines 4 to 7 --

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  -- I think actually that that might call for a

 7     redaction as well.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 9     statement, 1D4073.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be taken care of.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That proposal for decoration.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We don't have the English translation for that, but

13     I suppose the Prosecution would not oppose to marking it for

14     identification?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  If I could just have your indulgence for a second

16     to see, again, quickly which document --

17             JUDGE KWON:  The proposition for decoration of Mustafa ...

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, no.  I actually do object, Your Honour.  The

19     witness did not confirm any part of that document in any regard, knew

20     absolutely nothing of it, and I think it hasn't passed any bench-mark.

21     The document, furthermore, doesn't appear to be an original document and,

22     frankly, I noticed further it's not related to the admissibility of the

23     document, Dr. Karadzic didn't read out all of the passage that was even

24     marked to the witness.  But I do object to the admission of that

25     document.

Page 18465

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But did the witness not deny the -- deny the

 2     involvement in arming or whatever of that person in question, who was

 3     proposed to be decorated?  So in terms -- whether -- my question is:  It

 4     is contextually relevant.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  I need to check the transcript, Your Honour.  I

 6     think he did not claim knowledge of it rather than specifically deny it,

 7     which is, in my submission, a difference.  If I --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I think I see your point.  Thank you.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic, would you like to

11     reply?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think that your approach is

13     correct, that if we can only admit documents that a witness agrees with

14     then we're creating a skewed form of admissibility and when a document is

15     contradictory to the witness and he explains it then it ought to be

16     admitted for its context and I think that's the case here.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

18             Would you like to add, Mr. Tieger?

19             MR. TIEGER:  Just to keep our eye on the ball of what I think

20     have been an evolving set of guide-lines.  Of course there's no dispute

21     that where a document is used for appropriate contextual reasons or to

22     impeach a witness, that it's not necessary for the witness to affirm its

23     contents.  But that leaves aside the -- or begs the question of the

24     underlying indicia of authenticity about the document as used.  Otherwise

25     any document could be presented to a witness who would in the guise of

Page 18466

 1     impeachment.  So I understood there are basically two factors governing

 2     the admissibility of documents used for impeachment or context.  And one

 3     is of course whether that is its purpose; and number two, other indicia

 4     of reliability or authenticity.  No question in instances where we've had

 5     contemporaneous documents produced by various official entities.  And

 6     then I -- there's a bit of a sliding scale thereafter.  So I think the

 7     issue under discussion here is:  Where does this document come from?  To

 8     what extent can it be relied on for this purpose.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just for my memory.  The witness did confirm that he

10     knew that person in question, did he not?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  I have what I see right now is the witness

12     repeating that he does not know of any group that had weapons --

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, that person --

14             MS. EDGERTON:  -- and he did not know of any statements.  And as

15     for the person ...

16             JUDGE KWON:  With the first name of Mustafa, if my memory is

17     correct -- I will consult my colleagues.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may add something, this is an

21     original Telex of the committee commemorating the anniversary of

22     Srebrenica.  There's a date, there's a number and there's a reference to

23     the body that made the proposal.  You cannot place a stamp on a Telex.

24     And the Army of Republika Srpska seized this in Srebrenica.

25             JUDGE KWON:  When the other party is challenging the authenticity

Page 18467

 1     and in -- in particular in the case where the witness did not confirm

 2     content of any part of the document, you need to call a witness who can

 3     introduce that document in a proper way.  Your questions remain an -- and

 4     answer of the witness will remain in the transcript and the document

 5     later admitted can be used to assess the credibility of the witness.  In

 6     that regards we will not admit this document through this witness.

 7             Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Can I rise on one further almost by now

 9     administrative thing.  I had asked for paragraph 37 to be redacted, I see

10     also paragraph 39 will need to be of the 92 ter written evidence of this

11     witness.

12             JUDGE KWON:  In its entirety?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  I think that's safer, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be done.

15             Very well, for -- shall we go into private session briefly.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18468











11  Page 18468 redacted. Private session.















Page 18469

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Given the time, the Chamber will take a break for an

21     hour and resume at 25 past 1.00.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

23                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25                           --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.

Page 18470

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18471











11  Pages 18471-18473 redacted. Private session.















Page 18474

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  If the witness takes the solemn declaration, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, I once again would like to inform you on behalf

15     of the Chamber that you will be testifying today with the benefit of

16     pseudonym, which is KDZ-607, image and voice distortion.  This means that

17     there will be no reference to your real name or information which might

18     reveal your identity to the public or media.  The audio/visual record of

19     your testimony which is broadcast to the public will have a distorted

20     image which can be shown at the monitor right now, like this, to ensure

21     that your identity is protected and the transcript, while available to

22     the public, will always refer to your pseudonym.  Do you understand, sir?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Ms. Edgerton.

Page 18475

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 2             Could we have 65 ter number 90274 called up, please.

 3                           WITNESS:  KDZ-607

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, on the computer monitor in front of you within a

 7     couple of seconds you're going to see a sheet of paper.  And when you see

 8     it, I would like you to tell us whether or not your name appears there

 9     correctly.  All right.  Just hang on for a couple of moments.

10             Do you see your name now, Mr. Witness, on the computer screen in

11     front of you?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have that pseudonym sheet marked as our

14     first Prosecution exhibit in relation to this witness, please.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course under seal.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P3288 under

18     seal.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, you have given statements to authorities or

21     offices from your own country as well as to representatives from the

22     Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you've also testified in another court about what happened to

25     you in 1992; correct?

Page 18476

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, on the 1st of September, last week, you met with more

 3     representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor and they read back to

 4     you another statement.  And that statement put together parts of your

 5     evidence from your earlier statements and transcripts so that it's

 6     organised in a chronological way; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And at that time you made some corrections and you added some

 9     information and you clarified some information in that statement, didn't

10     you?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you signed it?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And with those changes, is that statement you signed last week

15     accurate as far as you remember the events it talks about?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   And if today I was to ask you all the same questions you were

18     asked when you gave your earlier statements and you testified in other

19     trials, would your answers be the same?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Then, Your Honours, could we have the amalgamated

22     statement of this witness, 65 ter 90272, as the next Prosecution exhibit

23     under seal, please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3289 under seal, Your Honours.

Page 18477

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, because of the nature of the evidence in

 2     regard to this witness, I don't intend on reading a summary and will move

 3     directly to some questions related to the written evidence we've just

 4     admitted.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, when you listened to your statement on the 1st of

 6     September being read back to you and also when we met this last weekend

 7     to prepare for you to come here today, you looked at a number of

 8     documents.  Do you remember that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I just want to talk about some of these documents briefly with

11     you.  In your written evidence at paragraph 15, you refer to a photo of

12     Rasadnik farm and make a comment on it, and that was a black-and-white

13     photo.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could we just --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. Edgerton.  My apology for

17     intervention, but shall we go into private session briefly.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18478

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have a look at 19145E, please.  Thank

23     you.

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, is that a colour version of the photograph you

25     commented on in your written statement at paragraph 15?

Page 18479

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honours, this is simply offered up now

 4     rather than the black-and-white photograph so that we can have a clearer

 5     depiction of the image.  So I'd like to tender that as a Prosecution

 6     exhibit, please.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3290, Your Honours.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   At paragraph 54 of your written evidence you referred to a

11     lengthy document which was a series of exhumation records relating to

12     remains exhumed from a mass grave site.  Do you remember that?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we see, please, 65 ter number 09394 without

15     broadcasting it, and starting at page 2 of the document in both English

16     and B/C/S move slowly through the first few pages.  If we could go to the

17     next page, please, in B/C/S.  And the next page.  And one page following

18     in B/C/S.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, looking at the first few pages of this document, can

20     you say whether this is the same document you reviewed and commented on

21     in your statement?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   As you reviewed this document, did you have a look at the names

24     of those people whose remains were identified?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18480

 1        Q.   Did those names correspond with the list of persons you

 2     identified as victims in paragraph 48 and 49 of your statement?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have that, please, as the next

 5     Prosecution exhibit, please, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure of the status of this document be

 7     admitted it as P3276, only part of it.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Only two pages of it, Your Honour, so now I would

 9     like to move the whole file, the witness having reviewed the whole file.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think the first eight pages

11     should be admitted, but the other document -- this is a 69-page document.

12     Beyond the names there's no real connection between that other

13     information and this witness.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any response?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, the certificates that the witness reviewed

16     establish the death of the persons killed in this case, Your Honours, and

17     I would say they're relevant.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you don't dispute the authenticity of this

19     document?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the view there's a basis to admit

23     the document in its entirety.  That will be done -- or added -- that will

24     be added to the existing document.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 18481

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That will be done, that will be added to the

 2     existing exhibit, but shall I go -- shall we go into private session

 3     briefly.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we go now to 65 ter number 07047.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, this document is dated 14 June 2004 and it's an

23     official record prepared by the Ministry of the Interior of the

24     Republika Srpska regarding collection centres in Rogatica.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go into private session for this

Page 18482

 1     question, please, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 18483

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, if we could go over to the second page in the

24     original document.

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you see those two names we've just spoken about

Page 18484

 1     on the list in front of you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  One question about this document that I think I

 5     should ask in private session, please.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we go back to page 1 of this document.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, could you tell us if you see the name of the

18     individual we've just spoken about on this list?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like to try and tender this document, please,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  As well as the previous one?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 18485

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, no objection as to this

 2     document.

 3             As to the previous one, Mr. President, if you look at the text, I

 4     think that what the witness had to say about this document is so limited

 5     compared to what the conclusions that the text draws that it would be

 6     unfair to admit this document.  This was a document that was created in

 7     2004 and it's some kind of investigation that was done or conclusions

 8     that were made well after these events, more than ten years after the

 9     events, as to who was responsible for various facilities.  And these are

10     issues that we think that this witness doesn't sufficiently speak to the

11     document about to warrant its admission.  He can say what he observed at

12     the places where he were, but to use that as a bootstrap to admit

13     someone's conclusions from Republika Srpska about who was in charge of

14     these facilities, we don't think that that's fair, given the fact that we

15     don't have anyone to really confront about the conclusions that are being

16     drawn from -- in this document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to respond, Ms. Edgerton?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, the witness's evidence, admittedly,

19     with respect to this document is limited to identifying the location or

20     identifying the detention facility where he was housed.  Establishing

21     that there was or could have been no other place than that facility that

22     the document refers to and I actually think given that evidence it passes

23     the established bench-mark here in these proceedings for document

24     admissibility.

25             JUDGE KWON:  All the witness did was to identify the building

Page 18486

 1     where he was detained.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  This is a document from the Republika Srpska.  I

 5     don't know that there is any dispute as to its authenticity.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with the observation of

 8     Mr. Robinson and this will not be admitted through this witness, but

 9     we'll give the number for 70330.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit Number P3291.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12             If we could just go into private session for the first part of

13     the question in relation to the next document, I would appreciate that.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18487

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no objection?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

18             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3292, Your Honours.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  And I have no further questions from

22     this witness, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  As indicated, the Chamber will have a break for ten

24     minutes.  In the meantime I would like to encourage the parties to have a

25     word as to how to proceed in terms of cross-examination, in particular

Page 18488

 1     what should be dealt with in private session and what should be -- what

 2     can be discussed in public session.

 3             We'll resume at 2.30.

 4                           --- Break taken at 2.19 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, Your Honour, I've reviewed the paragraphs that

 8     we think could be dealt with in open session and discussed them with

 9     Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Robinson, and we will do our best.  Dr. Karadzic, we

10     realised, will have some difficulty because he is working with an older

11     version of the amalgamated statement, although this version with the

12     changes was disclosed to him in plenty of time.  Sometimes with the best

13     intentions on all our parts, things go awry.  And so with your

14     understanding in that regard, we will do our best.

15             And before I sit down I just wanted to because I hadn't before we

16     broke, move the remaining associated exhibits that weren't otherwise

17     dealt with with this witness in oral testimony into evidence, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  A couple of associated exhibits have been dealt

19     with -- one we deal with it.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And there are some that have been already admitted.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Can I draw your attention to the document with

24     65 ter number 07047, which is referred to in para 56.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  And that is the one that Your Honours have ruled

Page 18489

 1     should be --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] --

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  -- dealt with with another witness.  So when I

 4     said those that weren't dealt with in oral testimony, I included that

 5     because it wasn't dealt with.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] -- I meant to refer to the

 7     next one 07330, which is referred to in para 57.  If you read para 57,

 8     all that the witness said is that:

 9             "I haven't been shown this document, payment list."

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, we dealt with that in live evidence,

11     Your Honours, and Mr. Robinson was asked whether he had any objection to

12     its admission --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  -- and he did not.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That was admitted at 3291.  I noted

16     erroneously the number.  Thank you.

17             Then the others can be admitted -- actually, 19145A.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted as -- we give the number right

20     now.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3293, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  And 19145C.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Will be Exhibit P3294.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  And I think --

25             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] --

Page 18490

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  -- that covers it, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  And after today I will be reviewing the

 4     transcript, Your Honours, to see what can go back into open session.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   I have to kindly ask you and be mindful of it myself that we

12     should be making a pause between question and answer in order that the

13     interpreters may interpret what we are saying.

14             Were you aware of the presence of two armies in the area you

15     were?

16        A.   I don't understand the question.

17        Q.   Were you aware that there were two armed forces, two armies,

18     present in the area where you lived?

19        A.   I don't know which two armed forces are you referring to.

20        Q.   Were you aware that there were armed Serbs in various formations

21     there as well as armed Muslims, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   In my area, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was not present at the

23     time.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P3292 called up.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18491

 1        Q.   While we're waiting for it to appear, Mr. Witness, do you agree

 2     that in the direction of Central Bosnia the separation lines between the

 3     Muslim and Serbian armies were west of Kaljina, near Sokolac, close to

 4     Olovo and Kladanj?

 5        A.   I'm -- don't know about that.

 6        Q.   Would you be so kind as to look at the document you were reading,

 7     Kozarde, Kramer Selo, et cetera, where it is stated:

 8             "A concentrated presence of the enemy forces was noted, probably

 9     the intention is to cut off the Srednje-Nisici road, et cetera.  So the

10     telegram that was shown a moment ago and admitted into evidence speaks

11     about an increased presence of your forces there.  Were you aware of

12     this?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at without it being broadcast your

15     statement paragraph 38.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 12, please, or

17     rather, paragraph 38, wherever it may be, but I do believe it's on page

18     12 -- 13, that is.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Look at what it is you have to say there and I will read it in

21     English.

22             [In English] [As read] "... According to my information, which I

23     learned when I reached the free territory, the defenders of the Army of

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina were attacked at that elevation, they all went up

25     towards the elevation."

Page 18492

 1             [Interpretation] And then, speaking about the critical day, I

 2     will not mention what the event was, you say that there were also persons

 3     wounded and killed; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What was this other side that wounded these individuals and

 6     killed several Serbs?

 7        A.   I don't know about the killing of the Serbs, but I do know that

 8     when we were being used as human shield there were people wounded among

 9     us.  Some people say that three persons were wounded.  I know the names

10     of two.  I don't know about the third one.

11        Q.   And what was the army against which you were used as a human

12     shield?

13        A.   Against the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   This means that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was present after

15     all?

16        A.   Yes, but you asked me about the Kalinovik area which I wasn't

17     aware of.  The first question you put to me had to do with Kalinovik, and

18     that's on the side opposite to the area where we were used as a human

19     shield.

20        Q.   Thank you.  That must have been an error in interpretation

21     because I said "in the area where you lived."  So where you lived, in

22     your municipality, the telegram which makes reference to these various

23     villages, does it accurately report about the fact that the enemy forces

24     were observed and of course to the author of the telegram, that would

25     have been the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 18493

 1        A.   Well, the villages that I mentioned did not have the presence of

 2     the BH army at all.  Let me just tell you my village had 57 inhabitants.

 3     22 of them were men, the rest were women.  Six of them moved out.  I am

 4     giving you the information as per the 1991 census.  In 1992 six of them

 5     had already moved out.  Out of the 22 men, four were elderly individuals,

 6     65 and above, and there were five minors.  So how can one speak of an

 7     army at all in those terms.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  If we have any time left, we'll get back to that.  In

 9     your earlier statements you also speak of the circumstances prevailing in

10     your municipality and say that the Serbs set up their own Assembly and

11     introduced parallel municipal structures.  Is it not true that the Serbs

12     and the Muslims, i.e., the SDS and the SDA, agreed that the municipality

13     would be transformed into two municipalities, Serb and Muslim, and that

14     the Serbian Assembly functioned as a Deputies Club or as a part of the

15     National Assembly and that the Executive Committee did not exist at all

16     until the outbreak of hostilities, until May?

17        A.   In early 1992, or rather, in late 1991, the Serbian Municipal

18     Assembly was set up headed by Tomislav Batinic, who had up to that point

19     been the legitimate president or president of a legitimate Municipal

20     Assembly.

21        Q.   However, the joint Assembly continued to work; right?

22        A.   Well, I don't know.  I know that for a while the Assembly did not

23     work.  I think it was from December 1991 until May 1992.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that they divided, or rather, agreed to

25     divide the building.  Half of it was the Serb municipality, the other

Page 18494

 1     half of it was the Muslim municipality, and also the public security

 2     station, half to the Serbs and half to the Muslims and they had their

 3     separate doors and they even celebrated that with a cocktail party?

 4        A.   I know about the police station, but I don't know about the

 5     agreement.  The police was divided because the Serbs said that they no

 6     longer trusted the Muslims.  I'm sorry, let me just go back to this

 7     establishment of a Serb municipality.  At the time they were justifying

 8     it by a lack of balance in the members of the Assembly, in the Municipal

 9     Assembly.  The Bosniaks won 30 seats and the Serbs 20.  So they said that

10     they wanted to have the police divided because they no longer trusted the

11     Muslims.  They said that the police had to be divided willy-nilly.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you think that that happened only in your

13     municipality or do you think that that was at the level of all of Bosnia

14     within the conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   I'm not aware of what was going on in the territory of all of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   So there was an agreement and it was signed that there would be

18     two municipalities and two public security stations; right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.  But however, as far as I know, there was an

20     ultimatum there, that that would happen willy-nilly, by hook or by crook.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know that we accepted to have Bosnia leave

22     Yugoslavia on those conditions and that that was a precondition?  Do you

23     know that; yes or no?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 58 you say that there was a division, or

Page 18495

 1     rather, Rogatica complied with the requests of the Serbs to have a

 2     division of the municipality and in the police, but you say that the

 3     Serbs were not satisfied and were terrorising the people by putting up

 4     check-points - what was the word? - and so on and so forth.  Are you

 5     saying that the Serbs gave up on the division or was it the Muslims who

 6     gave up on it?

 7        A.   Well, as I have said, the division took place because that is

 8     what the Serbs wanted and they said that that would happen, willy-nilly,

 9     by hook or by crook.

10        Q.   Who said that to you, Mr. Witness, that that is the way that it

11     would be?

12        A.   No one said that to me, but these people who attended the

13     negotiations then on the division of the police, they claimed that, and

14     you can see who attended at the time, who the Bosniaks were who were

15     working on this division with the Serb side.

16        Q.   Over here you say that the Serbs started terrorising people and

17     putting up check-points - what do we call them, check-points?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Were the Serbs the first to put up check-points?  You refer to

20     April here.  When did the first check-points appear?

21        A.   I know that it was at the exit out of Rogatica.  I used to go

22     there towards Sarajevo.  I heard that in the so-called Karanfil Mahala

23     there was one check-point.  As for these barricades, the first barricades

24     were between the municipality building and the hotel.  The Serbs

25     blockaded that area.

Page 18496

 1        Q.   So that means that the Serb barricades came first?

 2        A.   Well, I meant barricades not check-points.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter number 07835.  I believe

 4     it's actually been admitted already.  I believe it has a P number.  07835

 5     is the 65 ter number.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   What is your recollection in terms of the date when any kind of

 8     barricades appeared, April or before that?

 9        A.   I cannot remember.  It's been quite a while.  I cannot remember

10     exactly.  I cannot give you the exact date when this started.  I know for

11     sure that it was before the 15th of April.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Witness, please take a look at this.  An

13     agreement was reached to divide the municipality to have every local

14     commune with the Muslim population conduct its own business within its

15     own municipality and the Serbs in their own.  The Serb policemen should

16     keep law and order in Serb areas and Muslims in Muslim areas.  And then

17     on the 23rd of March, look at this first sentence, the Muslims are

18     putting up barricades and the Serbs respond on the 24th.  Look at the

19     first three lines of this report sent to the BH Presidency.

20        A.   I see that.

21        Q.   So you don't know who it was that put up roadblocks first, you

22     think it was the Serbs?

23        A.   Yes, what I saw.  I can speak about what I saw myself.  I cannot

24     talk about things that I have not seen myself.  I know for sure that at

25     this so-called Karanfil Mahala there were Serb check-points as you call

Page 18497

 1     them and there were checks carried out there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has been admitted?  It has a P

 4     number?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P3271, Your Honours.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Then you talk about Karanfil Mahala and about people, Serbs, who

 9     were at those check-points conducting the checks.  What were they

10     wearing?

11        A.   They wore camouflage uniforms and SMB uniforms, olive-green-grey.

12     I do not remember the insignia they had.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You then say in paragraph 3 of your statement --

14     actually, you talk about work, don't you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I beg your pardon.  I beg your pardon.  It's some different

17     paragraph.  Just a moment, please.  Paragraph 9 on page 3, if it's still

18     the same, I mean if the numbers are still the same.

19             You say that because of the security situation that was becoming

20     increasingly complex, the safety of the citizens was jeopardised, the

21     management of the company where you worked decided in mid-April 1992 that

22     you should go to work only once a week.  You say that as far as you

23     remember it was only on Mondays.  Since you lived in the country, you

24     went to work by bus; right?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 18498

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Until when did you work?

 2        A.   I worked until the 15th of April.

 3        Q.   But over here it says that in mid-April it was decided that you

 4     would only go to work once a week.  How long did that go on?

 5        A.   Before I used to come in only on Mondays, but after the 15th of

 6     April I never came again.  I never came again, other employees did, but I

 7     did not.

 8        Q.   Why not?

 9        A.   I did not go because there were these check-points, as I said,

10     and because these checks were carried out, these searches and I was

11     afraid.  I'm not sure exactly what the date was, but Batanovic, when he

12     wanted to go around that roadblock, trying to avoid it, he was arrested.

13        Q.   Ah-ha.  Why would that be a reason for them to arrest you?

14        A.   I don't know.  There was no reason, but there was no reason for

15     what I experienced and look at what happened to me.

16        Q.   However, you said in your statement dated the 12th of January,

17     1994, paragraph 2, that in mid-April, because of these check-points, you

18     and most Muslims decided not to go to work, right, for a while.  That's

19     what your statement says.

20        A.   On the 15th of April, as far as I know, the Romanija Corps passed

21     through Rogatica -- actually, it was on the 14th of April.  They passed

22     through all their equipment and there was shooting in town.  And on the

23     next day people didn't go to work again.  I personally did not go

24     anymore.  On the 14th of April I went to Rogatica for the last time and I

25     never went again.  I don't know whether other people came.

Page 18499

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that on the 15th of April the

 2     Romanija Corps did not exist?

 3        A.   I'm saying that I don't know which corps it was, but I do know

 4     that a large convoy passed through town, then they came from Kovan, I was

 5     in Rogatica at the time and they went in the direction of Mesici.  Which

 6     corps it was exactly, I don't know.

 7        Q.   So Kovan is farther away from the Serbian border and Mesici is

 8     closer to the Serbian border, so they passed through this part of Bosnia,

 9     going from the depth of Bosnia to the outskirts of Bosnia, right, towards

10     Serbia?

11        A.   I told you where they went and I don't know where they went after

12     that.

13        Q.   However, it would be a good thing if the Trial Chamber knew

14     whether Kovan is closer to Serbia or is it Mesici that is closer to

15     Serbia?

16        A.   Well, Mesici is closer to Serbia.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I note the time, so we'll adjourn for

19     today and continue tomorrow morning.

20             Sir, during the break -- we'll continue tomorrow, but during the

21     break you are required not to discuss with anybody else about your

22     testimony.  I take it that you understand that?

23             We'll start tomorrow at 10.00 and we'll sit until 3.30, as

24     indicated.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.59 p.m.,

Page 18500

 1                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

 2                           September, 2011, at 10.00 a.m.