1 Tuesday, 6 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Good morning, Mr. Bazdar.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. Good
11 morning, Your Excellencies. Good morning to everyone.
12 WITNESS: ARMIN BAZDAR [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 A. Good morning.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak up.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bazdar, if you could come closer to the
19 microphone or could you speak up for the benefit of the interpreters.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Yesterday you said something about caps that I didn't quite
23 understand and then I saw also in your statement that you mentioned it.
24 You said something about greasy caps. What did you mean? Which caps did
25 you mean? You mentioned fur hats, subaras, is that what you meant?
1 A. I was thinking of your traditional caps, the sajkaca caps.
2 Q. On page 5 of your statement you talk about characteristic caps
3 with two-headed eagles and you said that these people had beards, long
4 hair. Is this what you referred to when you talked about the 50
5 Chetniks? If you have your statement in front of you --
6 A. No, I don't have it. I'm sorry. I would like to see it, though.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have the statement
8 in Serbian from 1999, the 23rd of January, 1999, provide that -- could we
9 please provide that to the witness, Mr. Bazdar.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
11 MR. GAYNOR: We can call that up on the screen it's 65 ter 07472
12 that was admitted yesterday. I don't have the P number to hand, but it
13 is available in B/C/S.
14 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit P3286.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
16 MR. KARADZIC [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can we look at page 3 first in the Serbian where you note that
18 there were two different groups. One was in your village when they said
19 that you should assemble in houses, several families. You said that
20 these were local people from local places and you saw people from Serbia,
21 this is the one paragraph but last on page 3, and you say that they wore
22 red berets and these up there were just wearing berets and then these
23 ones here had insignia of two-headed eagles, some had beards, and were
24 from Serbia. So you recognised two distinct formations there, did you
1 A. Well, the question is not clear to me. You said a lot of things.
2 Could you put a specific question to me.
3 Q. The question is in this specific passage that I indicated, did
4 you recognise two groups of soldiers? About the locals -- but you said I
5 also saw members of paramilitaries known as the White Eagles. Their
6 insignia was two-headed eagles, they had red berets on, some had beards,
7 they were from Serbia. Is that right?
8 A. I don't see where it says that. Could you please tell me.
9 Q. The one paragraph but last in the second half of it in the
10 Serbian, do you see that? In English it's the last paragraph.
11 JUDGE KWON: No, it's coming again.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I can't find my way
14 JUDGE KWON: On your left.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And page 3 on the left side of the
16 screen, please. I think it's page 3 in the English as well, yes.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Last paragraph in the English and in the Serbian it's one
19 paragraph but last.
20 A. You mean the one that begins "over the next few days"?
21 Q. Yes, yes.
22 A. All right. Just give me a second to read it, please.
23 And what is your question?
24 Q. Did you notice then in your village these two kinds of soldiers?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Then on page 5 in the Serbian and I think it's
2 probably on the same page in the English version - can we look at page 5,
3 please - where it says: "We were taken to Duljevac ...," and then here
4 you say that there was a Serbian soldier in the minibus called Dzeric and
5 a woman called Neda. You don't know why they were going there and then
6 you say:
7 [As read] "I saw about 50 Chetniks there, they had beards, long
8 hair, and were wearing their particular caps with their Serbian insignia
9 of the two-headed eagles, they had automatic rifles ...," and so on.
10 That's what was there when you came to Duljevac. Is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. Just one correction. It's not the Serbian person, it's not Neda,
15 it's Nada. This was already corrected yesterday in the statement.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 And you say in the last paragraph that Sveto Ljubinac, an old
18 neighbour, told you that the soldiers were not going to kill you; is that
19 right, the one-but-last paragraph down there: "It seemed ..."
20 A. Yes, a few of us asked him what was going to happen to us, if
21 they were going to kill us, and he said no they were not going to kill
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. So just before the actual act of the execution.
25 Q. All right. Thank you.
1 At the end of the statement you say that the tunnel next to the
2 airport in Sarajevo was only used by the UN as well as people and convoys
3 with special permits. Is that correct? Because our information is that
4 the UN did not use the tunnel but it was exclusively used by the
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina army. This is on the last page of your statement, 7.
6 A. Well, this is something that I heard, so I conveyed that. I
7 tried to get across through the airstrip, so I don't know. But this is
8 something that I heard.
9 Q. Thank you. And did you hear that the tunnel was only used by the
10 United Nations and people with permits? Because we don't have
11 information that the UN used the tunnel.
12 A. This is what I heard and so this is a piece of information that I
13 stated because I heard it.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 In your statement on the 20th of February, 1993, paragraph 12 you
16 said that Spiro commanded the unit there which in the end executed the
17 people. This is what you said in that statement. How did you come to
18 the conclusion that he was the commander?
19 A. The way I reached that conclusion is actually by the way that he
20 ordered a Serbian soldier when the people who had gone on human-shield
21 duty returned he ordered to take us. So Dragoje Paunovic, called Spiro,
22 issued an order to that same soldier that he should kill us.
23 Q. Is it correct that in that action two or three Muslims were
24 killed, four Serbs were killed? This is just before the actual
1 A. I know that there were two Muslims who were wounded, civilians.
2 This is among us prisoners. I don't know how many killed and wounded
3 Serbs there were.
4 Q. But there were such people. They had to return because they
5 didn't manage to pass and get to where they wanted to go. They had
6 casualties. Is that right?
7 A. Yes, this is what was said. This is what Dragoje Paunovic,
8 Spiro, said. I didn't see that. All I saw was Mitar Ljubinac, called
9 Grof, a neighbour from Seljani, where I lived, I saw him with a wound in
10 his arm and he was a Serbian soldier at the time. I don't know about the
12 Q. Did Spiro have any ranks on his uniform?
13 A. I didn't notice, other than the radio that he had on him.
14 Q. And was Spiro wounded in that action?
15 A. I don't know if he was wounded in that particular action, but he
16 had a Band-Aid on his left ear, on the lower part of his left ear, and
17 his collar was bloodied, the military shirt he was wearing had a
18 blood-stain on it. I don't know if he was wounded in that action or
19 somewhere else, but he was wounded at the time when the execution took
21 Q. Well, had this happened earlier, he would have probably had
22 changed his shirt; right?
23 A. Well, I don't know.
24 Q. Are you able to tell us now how much time passed from that
25 attempt to break through and the execution?
1 A. About an hour or an hour and a half.
2 Q. I would like to shed a little bit more light on that very moving
3 event that must have left a mark on everyone. Who was there among the
4 uniformed armed persons? Did you recognise them? And how did they
6 A. The people that I knew who were there where the minibus arrived
7 were Mitar Ljubinac, aka Grof; Mladen, I don't know his last name but I
8 know that he was a taxi-driver in Rogatica; Boban Planojevic; Spiro,
9 Dragoje Paunovic; and Rajko Kusic.
10 Q. Thank you. And when the tragic command was issued, who was
11 present there at that point in time? Who issued the command?
12 A. I already said that. Dragoje Paunovic, aka Spiro, issued the
13 command to the Serb soldier who was walking ahead of us to kill us, and
14 he himself also took part in the execution by firing bursts of fire. I
15 don't know if anybody issued the order to him in turn because I joined
16 that group of people later who had been on human-shield duty. That's it.
17 Q. Thank you. Is it true that he told Slavisa Vukojevic, "Kill
18 them," and did you hear him say, "I will take that decision"?
19 A. I did hear him say that, but I don't know who the man involved
20 was. I don't know Slavisa Vukojevic. At a later date, when I heard his
21 description of the man and roughly the age, the conclusion was drawn that
22 the man was Slavisa Vukojevic, but I simply can't confirm that. I have
23 never known the man. As for the command, I've already described how it
24 was given.
25 Q. Fair enough as far as Slavisa goes. But did you hear him say, "I
1 will make that decision"?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D04179.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you testify before the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the
6 trial against this Spiro person?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up this document,
9 please. I do believe we only have the English version. Can we have page
10 7 of the document.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Where was Rajko Kusic when the shooting took place?
13 A. I didn't understand the question.
14 Q. Where was Rajko Kusic when the shooting took place?
15 A. I can't answer the question. I don't know.
16 Q. But he wasn't present there, was he?
17 A. I don't know if he was. I didn't see him.
18 Q. Thank you. Can we now focus on the part starting with "accused"
19 which is line 10 of the second paragraph starting with the word
20 "Accused ..."
21 [In English] [As read] "compatibility of the statements of the
22 eye-witnesses that the accused had a yellow band around his head, that he
23 had a Motorola (two-way) hand-held radio which clearly differed him from
24 the other soldiers present that day, that he stated, 'I decide on this'
25 and 'kill them,' 'Spiro is firing' and that he personally gave the order
1 to one of the present soldiers to take the detained civilians to a nearby
2 meadow after which he ordered and participated in their execution,
3 clearly leads to the conclusion that the accused had committed the
4 criminal offence concerned exactly in the manner as established in the
5 contested verdict."
6 [Interpretation] Apparently this is the appeals judgement or the
7 final judgement in the case against Spiro. Can you look further down
8 where mention is made of Spiro's injuries, et cetera, and that's the bit
9 where you say that he was injured. Is it true that you heard or that it
10 was heard that when the shooting started somebody radioed in a message
11 of, "Who is shooting?" And the response was, "Spiro's shooting." And
12 then the question was, "Who's asking?" And the answer, "Rajko Kusic is."
13 This is what you stated in your 23rd January 1999 statement, paragraph
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. In other words, Kusic was not there at that point and did not
17 expect that any sort of shooting took place and asked that he be told who
18 was behind the shooting?
19 A. I don't know what this is about. I have already answered the
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bazdar. Thank you for answering my questions and
22 please don't hold it against me for putting questions to you because I'd
23 rather not put any questions to victims if possible at all. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I've just a couple of points to raise in
2 Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:
3 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Bazdar, it was put to you by Mr. Karadzic - this
4 was at page 18396 - that Radisav Ljubinac, nicknamed Pjano, Mr. Karadzic
6 "Why was that his nickname? Was he well-known as an alcoholic?"
7 So it was suggested to you that he was an alcoholic. Now, this
8 is the same person who in your statement told you that he was delivering
9 orders of Rajko Kusic; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he drive the bus to the site where you were unloaded in the
12 presence of Rajko Kusic?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. He drove the minibus. He picked us up on
14 that day just before the execution took place, and he told us that he had
15 Rajko Kusic's order that he should take us over there because actions
16 were to take place.
17 Q. Did he appear to be drunk or intoxicated at any stage?
18 A. No. Whenever I met him, he never left that impression.
19 MR. GAYNOR: Could I call up, please, 23454.
20 Q. The document which is about to arrive is dated the 30th of May,
21 1994. It's signed -- it appears to be signed by Major Rajko Kusic,
22 commander, and it bears a stamp. Could you have a look at that document.
23 Could you confirm for me what it appears to be.
24 A. Based on what the heading says, it's the proposal for promotion
25 to the rank of a reserve sergeant first class.
1 Q. Does the name of that man match the name you've described as
2 being the person who drove the bus to the location where you were
3 unloaded in Rajko Kusic's presence?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Under item 7 does it suggest that he has been a member of the
6 Army of Republika Srpska since the 20th of May, 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On the next page, Major Rajko Kusic appears to give reasons for
9 the promotion.
10 MR. GAYNOR: If we could move to the next page in B/C/S, please,
11 and to the third page in English, please.
12 Q. Could I draw your attention to the second paragraph of that and
13 is it suggested there that this man since the beginning of the war he was
14 a member of a reconnaissance platoon with whom he took part in every
15 battle for the liberation of the Serb territory of Rogatica municipality.
16 And it goes on to commend him for his exceptional bravery and abilities.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Now, is that consistent with your observation that he was
20 receiving orders from Rajko Kusic on the day of the execution?
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that in evidence, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
24 MR. GAYNOR: I've no further questions in --
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
1 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P3287.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender into evidence the
7 judgement rendered by the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and can we ask the
8 witness to explain to us what the meaning of the word "Pjano" is which
9 prompted my question about alcoholism.
10 JUDGE KWON: Probably we need -- it's sensible to have it or we
11 can have assistance from the interpreters.
12 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, very well. It's only available in English. I
13 was just going to correct the record. I don't believe there's anything
14 on the judgement of the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina to suggest it is an
15 appellate-level judgement. I didn't see anything on it to suggest that
17 JUDGE KWON: But you --
18 MR. GAYNOR: There's no objection to its admission whatsoever.
19 JUDGE KWON: That judgement will be admitted.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1666, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bazdar, could you assist us in terms of the
22 meaning of "Pjano," what does it mean?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the word "Pjano," there is
24 not much I can tell you. I'm not a linguist able to explain meanings of
25 words. Besides, the background of a nickname can be of any sort. Who
1 knows why the individual was nicknamed that way. I think you should ask
2 a professional for an answer.
3 JUDGE KWON: But my question was: In general "Pjano" is
4 something that may be related to alcoholism?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be, but not necessarily.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Fair enough.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I assist? The last sentence of
8 the quoted passage states that it was well established in the contested
9 verdict, which is a clear reference to the fact that this is an appeals
10 judgement --
11 JUDGE KWON: That can be established separately.
12 Thank you, Mr. Bazdar. That concludes your evidence and I
13 appreciate your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
14 And please have a safe journey back home. You may be excused.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for calling me to appear.
16 I will be only happy to respond to any future calls. I hope that I have
17 contributed with my evidence to the process of shedding light on the
18 truth, and I hope that my testimony will assist you in making the right
19 determination in the Karadzic case.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, by all means. Thank you, Mr. Bazdar.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I'd like to make a clarification in
24 terms of Your Honour's inquiry in terms of the protective measures for
25 the previous witness. If we could go into private session for this.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will go into private session briefly.
2 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yesterday the accused asked to be allowed to
6 interview Witness KDZ-601 before the start of his testimony and requested
7 that this interview be conducted in this building. The Registry's
8 position is that only certain categories of witnesses may be interviewed
9 by the accused in this building and that in any event protected witnesses
10 may not be interviewed in person at the United Nations Detention Unit or
11 in this Tribunal building. The Registry has emphasized that it was
12 logistically impossible to ensure the adequate respect of the protective
13 measures in place should the accused interview protected witnesses who
14 are -- whose identities are protected in this building or at the UNDU.
15 The Chamber further wishes to note that the consistent case law
16 in relation to videolink and that videolink safe-guards all the rights of
17 the accused as much as in person, interviews, or testimony. The Chamber,
18 therefore, denies the accused's request that the interview be conducted
19 in the building. However, to accommodate a videolink conference between
20 the accused and the witness, that may be arranged tomorrow at 8.00 a.m.
21 the Chamber hereby orders that the proceedings will commence at 10.00
22 a.m. tomorrow morning.
23 We will go into private session briefly.
24 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE KWON: Then the Chamber will now issue an oral ruling on
21 the Prosecution's request for protective measures for Witness -- no.
22 Just hold on. Let me consult my colleagues.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, you are right. I was confused the
25 other way around. This is about Mr. Sead Hodzic.
1 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, I appreciate difficulty when it
2 involves numbers. You see, I have that defect or issue quite often
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
5 The -- it's an oral ruling on the Prosecution's request for
6 protective measures for Witness Sead Hodzic. The Chamber notes that the
7 Prosecution met with the witness yesterday and that witness requested to
8 testify with protective measures, expressing concerns for his safety and
9 that of his family should he testify in public session in this case
10 without protective measures. The accused opposed the Prosecution's
12 The Chamber recalls that according to the Tribunal's
13 jurisprudence the party requesting protective measures must demonstrate
14 the existence of an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare
15 of the witness or the witness's family should it become publicly known
16 that he or she testified before the Tribunal. The Chamber has considered
17 the reasons provided by the witness for the request of protective
18 measures, as set out in the Prosecution's oral submission, and notes that
19 the witness is currently residing in a third country and that none of his
20 family is currently residing in the municipality about which the witness
21 will testify.
22 The Chamber is not satisfied that there is an objectively
23 grounded risk to the security or welfare of the witness or his family.
24 Further, the Chamber notes that neither the witness nor his family has
25 been subject to any threats which could constitute an objectively
1 grounded risk to their security or welfare. The Chamber is, therefore,
2 not satisfied that the granting of the protective measures for the
3 witness on the Rule 75 is necessary and appropriate. The Prosecution's
4 request is therefore denied.
5 And for the next matter we need to go into private session.
6 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll break for 15 minutes until we hear the
23 next witness's evidence.
24 --- Recess taken at 9.48 a.m.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 --- On resuming at 10.07 a.m.
2 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, sir.
3 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
4 JUDGE KWON: If you could take the solemn declaration, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated and make yourself
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, with the witness here we had an
11 opportunity, I want to advise you, to discuss Your Honours' ruling and of
12 course Mr. Hodzic completely understands but he did raise one matter that
13 he would like us to put before the Trial Chamber and a small matter that
14 we've discussed with Mr. Robinson and I'd like to go into private session
15 to deal with that, if I may.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 18425 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton, we are now in open session.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 WITNESS: SEAD HODZIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
11 Q. Mr. Hodzic, first of all now, can you hear me in a language you
13 A. I can, yes.
14 Q. So then, Mr. Hodzic, do you recall giving a statement to
15 representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor in May of 2000?
16 A. I did provide a statement, yes.
17 Q. And did you review that statement yesterday in preparation to
18 come here today?
19 A. I did, yes.
20 Q. And did you make a number of corrections to that statement?
21 A. Yes, there were some printing errors and I think we corrected
22 that. We'll see.
23 Q. Thank you. Now so that we could go through these corrections in
24 the most expeditious way, I wonder if we could call up
25 65 ter number 22529, and I actually think everybody has the paragraph
1 numbered copy because it was uploaded yesterday. And I'd like to see it
2 in both Bosnian and English, and perhaps I could run quickly through
3 those changes, Mr. Hodzic, and you could let us know if they're correct.
4 MS. EDGERTON: And, Mr. Clerk, I'll direct you to the particular
5 paragraphs by number.
6 Q. First in paragraph 4 you asked for the words "skilled carpenter"
7 to be changed to "construction worker."
8 MS. EDGERTON: Could you just enlarge paragraph 4. Thank you.
9 Q. Is that change -- that first change correct? Did you hear me,
10 Mr. Hodzic?
11 A. Yes, but I don't see that it's changed here.
12 Q. Ah-ha. Mr. Hodzic, we didn't make, as you remember, any
13 handwritten or other annotations. What I propose to do with you is go
14 through those changes so that they appear on the trial transcript, and
15 after your testimony we can all make sure we understand your written
16 evidence with those changes that you talk about today incorporated in
18 A. [In English] Okay.
19 Q. If I have the change to paragraph 4 correct, perhaps we could go
20 on to paragraph number 6, which appears on this same page. And in
21 paragraph 6 after the second sentence which ends in the words "... made
22 my way back home to Zaklopaca ...," you wanted to insert the following:
23 "The local Territorial Defence had surrounded our barracks and
24 given an ultimatum that we either leave or face an attack. I left with
25 five days still on my national service tour, so technically it was
2 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Then if we could flip over, please, to paragraph
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
6 Mr. Karadzic, are you following with numbered paragraphs? Thank
8 MS. EDGERTON: At paragraph --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. At paragraph 26, instead of the word "JNA" in the first sentence,
12 you wished to change that so that it read: "Older men in SMB uniforms
13 who looked like they might have been JNA reserves." Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then further in that paragraph I'd like to know whether the
16 sentence in that same paragraph that reads "I saw that those were regular
17 JNA troops ...," does that sentence still apply or should it be deleted?
18 A. It means the same thing that I said. These are reservists in
19 military uniforms. This was not the JNA. There was no regular JNA
20 barracks in the area of Milici.
21 Q. Thank you. Now without displaying the next paragraphs, I think
22 we could perhaps go through a little more quickly. In paragraph 30 you
23 wanted to note for the sake of clarity that the B/C/S translation of the
24 English sentence "along the Jadar" uses words in your language to
25 describe you moving upstream, but actually the words used in your
1 language should describe you moving downstream because that's what you
2 were doing at the time. Correct?
3 A. Correct, downstream.
4 Q. And in paragraph 31 you referred to seeing two men in camouflage
5 uniforms and you wanted that to be changed to SMB uniforms. And in the
6 same paragraph where it says "they had red ribbon tied on their arms,"
7 you wanted "arms" to be changed to read "epaulettes." Correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. In paragraph 36 the sentence which ends with "I saw the body of a
10 man lying on the floor," the word "floor" should be changed to "ground."
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. In paragraph 37 the sentence that reads "this was down by the
13 junction in the village" should be completely changed to read "this was
14 at the edge of my village not far from my house," referring to a coffee
15 shop. Correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. In paragraph 43, the man's name "Rado" that appears should
18 actually be changed to "Rade."
19 A. Correct, his name is Rade.
20 Q. And finally, in paragraph 51, the name "Milisici" should be
21 changed to "Milici"; correct?
22 A. Correct, Milici.
23 Q. Thank you. So taking into account these corrections, is the
24 statement that you gave to the ICTY accurate to the best of your
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, then I would ask that 65 ter number
4 22529 be admitted as a Prosecution exhibit, and the Prosecution will
5 upload a redacted version of that as soon as possible. And 22529 is the
6 paragraph-numbered copy, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And if you are asked, you would answer
8 the same questions, Mr. Hodzic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 So we'll admit two versions of the statement.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, and pardon me, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: No problem.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The redacted version will be P3284 and the public
15 version will be P3285.
16 JUDGE KWON: The first one will be put under seal?
17 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.
18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
20 To summarise that written evidence, then, this witness is one of
21 the survivors of the attack by Bosnian Serb forces on the village of
22 Zaklopaca on 16 May, 1992, and the killing of more than 60 of its
23 inhabitants, Muslim men, women, and children. This is scheduled incident
24 A 15.2 of the indictment against Dr. Karadzic. The witness describes the
25 take-over of the town of Vlasenica in April 1992, the subsequent call by
1 Serb forces for the surrender of weapons, attacks by Serb forces on
2 neighbouring villages culminating in the attack on the witness's own
3 village. The witness narrowly escaped being shot and after it was safe
4 met up with other survivors and returned to Zaklopaca to see bodies of
5 villagers of all ages lying in groups around the area. Many had been
6 shot through the mouth, the backs of their heads had been blown away.
7 The witness identified 58 victims of the attack that day, including a
8 number of children under the age of 10. In the days following the attack
9 from their hiding place, the witness and other survivors saw Zaklopaca
10 looted and the bodies of those killed collected by a tractor and dumped
11 into a mass grave in the village.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, I'd just like to ask you a small number of
13 additional questions based on the written evidence that we've just filed.
14 In your written evidence at paragraph 13 you referred to Vlasenica being
15 occupied by Bosnian Serb forces and the JNA Novi Sad Corps. I wonder,
16 what makes you say that it was the Novi Sad Corps in particular that was
17 involved in the take-over?
18 A. Two days after the fall of Vlasenica I went to town, I heard that
19 they were not interfering with anyone. I went to town. I knew driver
20 Redzep Hadzic who was a driver in the Gradjevinsko construction firm.
21 There was a tank parked next to his house some 20 metres away and that is
22 exactly above the Boksit-Vlasenica football club soccer stadium and we
23 chatted, he was a nice man, and he told us he was a reserve officer from
24 the JNA, a tank operator. And he told us an interesting story. He said
25 that we expected major resistance while entering Vlasenica, however,
1 nobody fired a single bullet which is strange to us but we had orders to
2 shoot because we were expecting this attack, but we had information that
3 you were killing Serbs, slitting their throats, but we didn't see any of
4 that here and that's strange to us. And while he was staying here he
5 told us the following, "Take care of your -- be careful of your
6 neighbours when we leave." And he said he was from the Novi Sad Corps
7 and that the Novi Sad Corps occupied Vlasenica and they said they were
8 going to withdraw in a week and the equipment and all the weapons they
9 were going to leave it to the local Serbs, which is what they did. That
10 is the reason why I said what I said about the Novi Sad Corps.
11 Q. Just two things, Mr. Hodzic. If you could not speak so quickly,
12 then my colleagues in the booths around us would be able to translate
13 your words very easily. And the second thing is you've just referred to
14 a nice man with whom you've chatted who relayed this information to you
15 and I'm wondering, because you've not said it, this nice man who was a
16 reserve officer in the JNA, a tank operator, where was he at the time you
17 were speaking with him?
18 A. He was next to the tank which was parked above the stadium, which
19 I already said was next to Redzep Hadzic's house.
20 Q. Now --
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. We'll just move on -- oh, actually, I have one other question.
24 That tank that this man was beside at the moment that you spoke with him,
25 was that the only tank you saw in Vlasenica?
1 A. Yes, and it was just because I was in that area. I didn't really
2 walk around town or go to the surrounding check-points that existed.
3 Q. In paragraphs 17 and 18 of your statement you talk about the
4 surrender of weapons to Serb forces, and I'd like to know: Did you
5 surrender any weapons?
6 A. I didn't have any weapons.
7 Q. To go further, in paragraph 24 you talk about the attack on
8 Zutica by Serb forces, saying that people had been killed, women raped,
9 and a truck-load of men taken away and never seen again. How did you
10 know about that?
11 A. Because the Serbs came with two buses and brought those people
12 who had survived, they brought them to our village and asked us to help
13 them, to give them accommodation, food, clothes, and so on. And one of
14 these families came to my house and they talked about this, and the men
15 were showing us the bruises they had.
16 Q. In paragraph 39 of your statement you name your cousin and say
17 that he later died in Srebrenica. Do you know when exactly he died?
18 A. He separated from his wife with the fall of Srebrenica. His wife
19 and three children went to Tuzla. He tried to cross through the woods,
20 but he never was seen again and his body was never found. She told me
21 about it. This is information that I heard from her.
22 Q. In paragraph 54 you describe how after Gradina fell you and other
23 survivors fled to the woods and lived there for four days. And then in
24 paragraph 55 you say you began to starve so a large number of the
25 surviving women and children surrendered to Serb forces and were taken to
1 Susica. How do you know that was what happened to the women and children
2 who surrendered?
3 A. Because my mother was among them, also my sister-in-law, because
4 it was very difficult for them to survive. Men could walk around the
5 woods and manage somehow, but not women and children. So the women and
6 children surrendered at the first check-point and they were taken to
7 Susica. And then when I saw my mother a few months later, I heard that
8 she was transferred by bus. Two buses were sent to Cerska and two of
9 them for Kladanj --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Hodzic, the interpreters have difficulty
12 following you, since you are speaking very fast. Could you repeat your
13 answer from the part: Two buses were sent to Cerska ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two buses from the Susica camp were
15 sent to Cerska, and in those two buses my mother and my sister-in-law
16 were there, among the other people. Well, another two buses were sent to
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, I just see the time. I wonder
21 if I may continue, given that we've had a short pause earlier on --
22 JUDGE KWON: How much more do you have?
23 MS. EDGERTON: About seven minutes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 MS. EDGERTON:
3 Q. Now, you mentioned in your statement that you lost 28 family
4 members in the attack on the village among those who were killed. Do you
5 know whether their remains have been located?
6 A. Yes, they were, the remains were found only in 2006. They were
7 found in a strange way. A man, a Muslim man, who was really well off
8 paid off one of the Serbs to tell him where the grave was relocated to,
9 because the bodies from the first grave from I don't know which year were
10 transferred to a different grave. Because in 1993 people were brought to
11 our village from other Serbian municipalities and areas to live in our
12 village, and that was probably the reason why they transferred the grave.
13 Only in 2006 was it discovered. In 2008 a collective funeral was held
14 for all those people in Zaklopaca, which I attended.
15 Q. As far as you knew in 1992, did your village have any kind of
16 organised defence whatsoever?
17 A. No. Because during the attack no one had weapons, they didn't
18 have anything to fire from. Civilians were killed, women, the elderly,
19 and children.
20 Q. This last question might be a pretty hard one, but I wonder if
21 you can try and put into words for us the impact, the experience of
22 surviving this attack, the sight of your killed neighbours and family and
23 their loss has had on you and your family. What has it meant to you?
24 A. I cried for days and to this very day images keep coming back to
25 me and yesterday after we went through all of that, I really couldn't
1 sleep. Any time I give a statement this happens over and over again. It
2 had a very profound effect on me. I left my country because of that and
3 (redacted) which is where I live. And believe
4 me, I had to go so far because that helps me to keep that at a distance.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic. I don't have any other questions for you.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: Shall we go into private session briefly.
8 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
21 JUDGE KWON: I take it there's no associated exhibits that you
22 are going to tender?
23 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, there's none.
24 JUDGE KWON: Then before -- Mr. Hodzic, before Mr. Karadzic
25 begins his cross-examination, we are going to have a break.
1 We'll have a break till 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hodzic.
8 A. Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.
9 Q. Let us establish the truth together and this is my intention in
10 putting questions to you. It is my no means my intention to attack you
11 or contradict you. If at any point you feel that we need to move into
12 closed session, please say so. Is it true that you were born in
13 Zaklopaca and can you tell us where were your parents born?
14 A. My mother was born in the village of Skugric, municipality of
15 Vlasenica, whereas my father was born in Zaklopaca.
16 Q. I see that quite a few people who had moved to Zaklopaca came
17 from Kladusa and other places?
18 A. No, there was only one person, Mustafa Mahmutovic, the late
19 Mustafa Mahmutovic, who came from Kladusa.
20 JUDGE KWON: Probably I need to emphasize once again, Mr. Hodzic,
21 that it's important for you and also for the accused to put a pause
22 between the questions and the answers because both of you are speaking
23 the same language and which has to be translated into one of the working
24 languages. So you need to pause, otherwise the interpreters would have
25 difficulty because of the overlapping. And slow down as well. Thank
1 you, Mr. Hodzic.
2 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. What was this Mustafa's father's name, do you know?
6 A. I don't.
7 Q. Is he Mahmutovic or Mehmedovic?
8 A. Mahmutovic.
9 Q. And there was no one Mustafa Mehmedovic in Zaklopaca?
10 A. No, there was Mustafa Berbic.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 In paragraph 7 of your statement, or rather, in paragraph 5, that
13 you were the only Muslim in the school in Milici and you never had any
14 difficulties with that. Was Milici predominantly or 100 per cent Serb
16 A. Milici has 99 per cent Serb inhabitants. There were some
17 immigrants who worked in the bauxite mine there who were given
18 accommodation in Zaklopaca.
19 Q. Thank you. Where you say in paragraph 11 that some policemen
20 from Milici promised that they would stop the night-time shooting and
21 seize weapons from Serbs, were these policemen also Serbs by ethnicity?
22 A. Of course. There was only one Muslim policeman, Mehmet Kula, who
23 worked at the police station in Milici.
24 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 7 you say that the relations between the
25 Muslims and the Serbs were good and that you felt that it was the
1 elections that had given rise to tensions between these two ethnic
2 communities; is that right?
3 A. Yes, precisely.
4 Q. Thank you. You are young, but nevertheless did you hear what the
5 situation was like in Vlasenica in the Second World War?
6 A. I didn't hear much, but I heard stories which were true stories,
7 as there was evidence for it, that during the Second World War five
8 people were executed in Zaklopaca as well.
9 Q. Do you know how the Serbs fared in this Birac region during
10 World War II?
11 A. No, unfortunately I don't.
12 Q. Thank you. Today at page 23 you entered a correction where you
13 say that the local Territorial Defence issued you with an ultimatum that
14 you should - and I'm going to read it in English so that it would be
15 better interpreted than I would do:
16 [In English] [As read] "The local Territorial Defence has
17 surrendered our barracks and given an ultimatum that we either leave or
18 face an attack. I left with five days still on my national service tour,
19 so technically it was desertion."
20 [Interpretation] Is what you are saying here in fact that you
21 were told that you should leave the area or else come under attack? Is
22 it true that the population was told that they should leave or is it --
23 or is my understanding wrong?
24 A. Your understanding is wrong. I'm referring to a place in
25 Slovenia where I served my obligatory military service in the JNA.
1 Q. So it was the JNA that was given the ultimatum?
2 A. Yes. Major Nikola Smirko's family was taken prisoner in --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name of the
4 location --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then he was told he should
6 surrender the barracks, which he did.
7 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters were not able to catch the name of
8 the location. Could you repeat it.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The location is Tolmin in Slovenia.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you agree that it was not only the elections that led to
13 tensions between these communities, but what followed them, the break-up
14 of Yugoslavia and the differences between the SDA and the SDS over the
15 issue of the country remaining within Yugoslavia?
16 A. I do not agree. What I said was based on the fact that the local
17 Serbs when I returned from my military service reproached us after the
18 Serb referendum that we were causing problems by the fact that we did not
19 participate in the referendum.
20 Q. So this wasn't shortly after the elections, but in the autumn of
21 1991; right?
22 A. What are you referring to when you say "the autumn of 1991"?
23 Q. The elections took place in 1990. The election campaign was
24 quite correct, the co-operation between the SDA and the SDS was decent,
25 they agreed on a coalition. Then in the course of 1991, the Muslim and
1 Croatian populations in Bosnia opted for a secession and the Serbs opted
2 for staying within Yugoslavia?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So it isn't fair to say that it was the elections that led to the
5 tensions, but the issue of Bosnia's fate; right?
6 A. I'm telling you what was my experience from my contacts with the
7 neighbours. During the elections I was in the JNA.
8 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 10 you say that the Serbs kept
9 criticising you, that's to say the Muslims, for the fact that they had
10 voted to break away from Yugoslavia; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In line 28, that's paragraph 13, it's -- that's paragraph 13,
13 line 28, it is for the first time that you are mentioning the tank
14 operator and the information he gave you. Why is that so?
15 A. Because nobody ever asked me about it.
16 Q. You do not mean to say surely that Madam Edgerton put a leading
17 question about this to you?
18 A. No. It was as we were discussing these matters that the issue
19 cropped up and she asked me where I got the information from.
20 Q. You say that you were afraid of the Serbs opening fire at night,
21 but were the Serbs not also afraid of the Muslims and did they also not
22 have their village guards in their own villages?
23 A. There was no need for them to fear anything. They did not --
24 they were not the object of fire as we were.
25 Q. Well, it is difficult to say that fear is -- every fear is
1 rational. Did you have information to the effect that Serbs were
2 cautious about what the Muslims' intentions were?
3 A. No, I didn't have information to that effect.
4 Q. Were you -- let us go back to that issue for a moment. Were you
5 the -- were you on your own when you deserted the ranks of the JNA or
6 were there others with you?
7 A. Many of us left the ranks of the JNA.
8 Q. Do you not agree that every proper army would dispatch a patrol
9 to hunt you down and bring you before a court of law?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you. You came to Zaklopaca in the autumn of 1991; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were you familiar with the negotiations that were under way
15 between the SDA and the SDS in Vlasenica about the transformation of
16 Vlasenica into Milici, Serbian Vlasenica, and Muslim Vlasenica?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Thank you. When in paragraph 13 you say that the JNA had taken
19 control of the town, you say it was the Bosnian Serb forces and the
20 Novi Sad Corps and that they dismissed all the Muslims. You should know
21 that both the Muslim and the Serb sides agreed to the existence of
22 Serbian Vlasenica, Muslim Vlasenica, Serbian police station, and a Muslim
23 police station. And you should know that the Serbian policemen stayed
24 with the Serbian police station and the Muslims were supposed to have
25 their own stations in Dzemat and in the very centre of town.
1 A. I find this ludicrous. Believe me when I tell you that I have
2 never heard of such a thing.
3 Q. I can very well understand that you didn't hear of something like
4 this, but then this statement of yours that the Muslims were laid off
5 is -- has no foundation. Do you not know that the Muslims worked and
6 lived in Vlasenica, some of them even up until the 6th of August?
7 A. Perhaps some of them did who were in mixed marriages, but I do
8 know that a camp was set up in Vlasenica and perhaps these Muslims were
9 in that camp rather than in their work-places.
10 Q. Thank you. Were you aware of the military organisation and
11 arming of the Muslims in Vlasenica, of the staff of the Patriotic League,
12 its unit, were you aware of these things?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. You say that on the 21st of April the JNA, the
15 Novi Sad Corps occupied Vlasenica. Do you know that at that time the JNA
16 was a legitimate military force in that area?
17 A. A legitimate military force that only Serbs took part in; is that
18 what you're saying?
19 Q. Well, if you fled from the JNA, Mr. Hodzic, then only Serbs had
20 to stay. Had you stayed in the JNA, you would have been that JNA; right?
21 A. I would be in the JNA but I'd have to fire at my own people.
22 Q. That is your assumption, that your people would have to fire at
23 the JNA, they would have to clash with their own army; right? On the
24 basis of what would the Muslims and the JNA clash if you were in the JNA?
25 A. Everything was known by then. It was already known that the JNA
1 would remain only Serbian. That's my answer.
2 Q. Thank you. In the same paragraph you say that some people
3 changed their name into the White Eagles, and you say that you saw some
4 people that you had known before, you saw them wearing different uniforms
5 and different insignia. Can you tell us what these insignia looked like
6 and to what extent they differed from the insignia of the Novi Sad Corps?
7 A. Sir, the regular police force at the time had the same police
8 uniforms but they just had white ribbons on their sleeves and they also
9 had eagles, and they called themselves Eagles. And they held this
10 entrance into Vlasenica a kilometre away from the centre by
11 Zvonko Bajagic's house. That is where I met the man whose car I
13 Q. Thank you. As a soldier, can you tell us why a ribbon is placed
14 in a particular spot on the body. Is that for the sake of recognition so
15 that you would not fire at your own?
16 A. That's what we did during tactical training in the former JNA.
17 We wore the same uniforms, but only our ribbons differed. That would be
19 Q. Thank you. These people you saw wearing these ribbons, who did
20 they want to be different from?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. What kind of uniforms did the Muslim territorials wear?
23 A. Clarify your question. You mean once the war started or before
24 the war?
25 Q. Well, before the war Muslim reservists of the JNA, did they keep
1 the same uniforms at home like Serb reservists did or was there a
3 A. Muslim reservists that I know from the experience of my father
4 and my uncle, they had uniforms at home and then they would wear them
5 when they were called up for training exercises, whatever.
6 Q. And they were identical to the ones worn by Serbs?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So these people who had uniforms like that felt it was necessary
9 to use a ribbon as a marking so that they would not fire at each other.
10 Why did they do that, because of who?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: We've been -- these questions sometimes have been
14 rather speculative, and I would submit this one calls for nothing other
15 than speculation. It's impossible for the witness to be able to answer
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can rephrase.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
19 Q. Are you trying to say that they did it for the sake of fashion or
20 did they wear these ribbons to distinguish themselves from the Muslim
22 MS. EDGERTON: Same objection, Your Honour. It calls for
23 speculation. How can this witness possibly know why these other people
24 may have worn ribbons?
25 JUDGE KWON: Based upon his experience, he may or may not answer
1 the question. I'll leave it in -- leave it to him.
2 Mr. Hodzic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to respond to
4 Mr. Karadzic.
5 Mr. Karadzic, do you really think that the Serbs in Zaklopaca met
6 with any resistance and that people met them there wearing uniforms and
7 using weapons? Sir, it was civilians who were attacked there and you
8 have to know that. The Serbs who attacked Zaklopaca wore ribbons. I saw
9 that very well. I'm not blind.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Hodzic, we are talking about the
12 municipality of Vlasenica. The Muslims in the municipality of Vlasenica
13 in the villages, were they organised and armed? Yes or no. You don't
14 have to know. Just say yes or no or I don't know.
15 A. The answer is: I don't know. I did not notice that.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you know or hear of Hasan Efendic's telegrams on
17 the 12th of April and then on the 20th-something of April then on the
18 29th of April, issuing an order to attack the JNA and the Serbs?
19 A. Sorry, I don't even know who Hasan Efendic is.
20 Q. The head of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So
21 you do not know the reason why the JNA came on the 21st of April, why
22 they came to Vlasenica; right?
23 A. I know what the man told me, the tank operator who entered
24 Vlasenica, and that is what I go by.
25 Q. Thank you. You say that Mustafa Mahmutovic, Mujaga Salihovic, or
1 rather -- were detained -- or rather, you say that they were kept in
2 detention but obviously they were brought in for an interview and
3 released after a couple of hours; right?
4 A. Exactly. Three days, taken away, taken back.
5 Q. For three days they were taken away and then brought back, they
6 weren't kept for all of three days? The answer was yes, that that was
7 the case; right?
8 A. Yes, they did not keep them overnight.
9 Q. Thank you. Can we now have in e-court 1D4073.
10 Did they tell you what they were interrogated about?
11 A. Yes, Mustafa told us that they were forcing them to say that we
12 were making plans that we would kill the Serbs, that they were forcing
13 him to admit that he had weapons, that the that the man did not have.
14 Q. What happened to Mustafa?
15 A. Mustafa was killed on the 16th of May, 1992. He was executed
16 with all the rest.
17 Q. Let us look at page 2 and then it moves on to 3. So it is the
18 bottom of page 2. This is a proposal for bestowing a decoration on
19 civilian victims. Let us see what the situation is like in respect of
20 Mustafa. He is born in the area of Velika Kladusa. His father's name is
21 so on and so forth. And then we all see - I don't know whether we have a
22 translation of this -- actually, we don't have a translation yet. I'm
23 going to read out the underlined section, the reasons why -- actually,
24 I'm going to read out this entire paragraph.
25 [As read] "Mustafa Mehmedovic, father's name Fejzo, posthumously
1 is supposed to be decorated. The mentioned person is born in the area of
2 Velika Kladusa in 1950, father's name Fejzo, mother Rahima. Over the
3 last 20 or so years he lived in Zaklopaca. He is a well-known
4 socio-political worker and he intensified his activities and struggles
5 for the interest of the Muslim people from the moment when the
6 multi-party system was introduced. From the first days he took part in
7 the SDA and as a product of his selfless efforts and organisation of the
8 Muslim people he won the confidence of voters and members of the organs.
9 He was a member of the Executive Board and vice-president of the SDA of
10 Vlasenica. He carried out thorough preparations for war as he bought two
11 weapons, and he figured particularly prominently in the organisation of
12 the people of Zaklopaca to resist the aggressor. During the first half
13 of May 1992 he established a unit constituted of about 30 armed
14 neighbours and he relocated to the nearby mountain of Birac with the
15 intention of linking up ..."
16 Can we have the next page now, please.
17 " ... with the same formation from the area of Derventa ..." and
18 so on and so forth.
19 "The representatives of the Derventa unit were not very steadfast
20 and therefore Mustafa's unit wavered. Its members decided to go back to
21 the village. The commander cautioned that there was a danger involved in
22 this total encirclement of Serb population. He remained on his own and
23 nobody else thought that way and he did not want to remain an exception.
24 He felt that he was going back to a hornet's nest. Unfortunately, his
25 assumptions proved to be true ...," and so on and so forth.
1 Sir, Mustafa commanded a unit consisting of 30 men who went to
2 the woods for no reason whatsoever, wishing to fight against the Serbs,
3 and they did not link up with Derventa only because of the shortcomings
4 of the Derventa unit. Isn't that right?
5 A. No, because I don't know anything about this. This is the first
6 time I hear of it. I find that very interesting, that I was not called
7 up into that unit because I was very fit. I was 19 years old.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness. It is very important to see what you do not
9 know as well.
10 Tell us, please, do you know who the remaining 30 persons were?
11 A. I've already answered this question. I don't know anything about
12 that unit and I find it strange, if it really did exist, that I was not
13 in it.
14 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 17 you said that weapons were
15 confiscated and you say that Serbs started going from village to village
16 in cars shouting through megaphones that all Muslims had to hand over
17 their weapons to the Serbs. Was it the Serbs or was it the authorities?
18 A. The Serb authorities that were guaranteeing peace and peaceful
19 coexistence, which ultimately did not happen.
20 Q. Thank you. And then in that situation you say in paragraph 23
21 you were at a loss as to what you should do and you decided to send
22 civilians, or rather, women and children away, but then this Serb, this
23 Serb whose name is Milenko Djuric, Gorcin, was trying to dissuade you.
24 He was suggesting that you stay on there and that people go on living
25 together; right?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. You say that he was a respectable Serb and that he was respected
3 by Serbs and Muslims; right?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. What party did he belong to?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Then, nevertheless, you sent your family members away on trucks
8 and they returned from Zivinice. Was Zivinice already under Muslim
9 control at that point in time? Was Zivinice under Muslim control
10 throughout the war?
11 A. At that point in time, Zivinice was free territory for us. The
12 reason why we decided to send them was precisely that, namely, that
13 Gorcin had promised at a meeting that the shooting would abate, but that
14 did not happen. That is why we sent our civilians to Zivinice. I say
15 that one truck didn't want to stop in Zivinice at all. It went to Zagreb
16 because that family, Dugalic, had a brother in Zagreb. As for the other
17 three trucks, two in Zivinice and another one in Stupari near Kladanj.
18 Q. Thank you. You say in paragraph 24 on page 29 of today's
19 transcript from line 10 onwards that after the fighting in Zutica, which
20 was a Muslim village, quite a few people were arrested and civilians were
21 brought to you and put up in your village. Did they bring civilians,
22 Muslims, from Zutica to Zaklopaca and were they put up in Muslim houses?
23 A. From Zutica and Pomol, civilians in two trucks were brought to us
24 and it was precisely Gorcin who accompanied them and another man I knew
25 by sight but I can't remember his name, they handed them over to us so
1 that we would help them and we put them up in different houses.
2 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 25 you say that the people of Zutica
3 were taken to Kasaba and then Cerska. Both Zutica and Zaklopaca and
4 Kasaba and Cerska, are they all within the municipality of Vlasenica?
5 A. At the time, yes.
6 Q. Thank you. After the events that occurred in Zaklopaca, some
7 people from Susica were taken to Kladanj and others to Cerska. Do you
8 know what the criterion was and do you know that they said themselves
9 where they wanted to go?
10 A. I don't know. I don't know if they said where they wanted to go,
11 but my mother and my sister-in-law were in one of those two buses and
12 they were transferred to Cerska.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know that shortly before the events in
14 Zaklopaca there was an attack on some Serb villages and there were many
15 civilian casualties?
16 A. No, I've never heard of that.
17 Q. And did you hear that because of that event a lynch mob had
18 formed in Milici and came to Zaklopaca to look for armed people, to
19 arrest them or kill them?
20 A. A lynch mob formed? This is the first time that I'm hearing of
21 this. Can you please clarify exactly which of those Serb villages were
23 Q. Well, we're going to present evidence of that. To me right now
24 it's important whether you know that or not. And please tell me in your
25 statement - can we look at 22530, please, this is 65 ter - can you please
1 tell us whether in your statement or interview you said that this group
2 of enraged Chetniks barged in and they really created bedlam, is that
3 what you said?
4 A. Perhaps I did describe it as an enraged mob, but they did barge
5 in without any cause. They rolled in with some ten cars and there were
6 four or five in each one.
7 Q. Yes, this is that interview. Can we look at Serbian page 3 and
8 the English page 3 and then 4.
9 Can you see where it says here that this group burst in -- yes,
10 this is the second line in the second. "This group of enraged Chetniks
11 barged in." Is that the description of the state that you saw them in?
12 A. I did see them and I know by first and last name who those people
13 were and the speed that they were bursting in with made them seem like an
14 enraged mob.
15 Q. And then you said that at the door you saw two armed men; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. They looked at you, you looked at them, they pointed their rifles
19 at you, and then they did not actually end up firing at you. Did you
20 have any weapons in your house at the time?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. So then they passed on; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. At a sign from a third man who was lying down at the corner
24 of the school with a machine-gun, M-70, he gave them a sign and he also
25 indicated to me that I should flee.
1 Q. Thank you. And then you walked around the village and you were
2 observing at -- you were observing what was happening?
3 A. No. I then set off towards the first Muslim houses where I could
4 then see people who were killed. The first person who was alive that I
5 met was Elvira Hreljic, who told me, "Run, they're killing all the men.
6 Run wherever you can. They're going to come and search the houses.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, could we have a redaction. I think
13 from line 5 to the end of line 9.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that we should
16 both be careful. I'm trying to point your attention to paragraph 34, but
17 I would not like that to be broadcast publicly.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
19 Q. So you faced those people, they pointed their rifles, they didn't
20 shoot, they were just a few metres away from you. They said, "What is
21 going on, what is this shooting?" He didn't reply. And then the person
22 who was laying down in paragraph 35 told you to flee?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And then you saw that some people had been shot from
25 hunting rifles, is that correct, or with hunting ammunition?
1 A. I saw that when the Serbs who had killed all of those people had
3 Q. And which formation has hunting rifles?
8 Q. In a number of places, for example, in paragraph 39 and 40 you
9 say that you assumed that Haso was killed, you assumed that he was
10 covered by a blanket. Did you actually see things or did you assume
12 A. Three people in the bed of the Jadar River some 150 metres away
13 from us, we saw them going to Haso Hodzic's house. The door remained
14 open. You could hear screaming. And then after that, after five
15 minutes, three men started chasing Haso in front of them. They were
16 literally pushing him in front of them. They went some 30 metres ahead
17 to a trailer truck, and you could just hear a short burst of gun-fire.
18 And then a couple of minutes, they went towards the centre of the
19 village, and from Haso's house a little girl appeared, I don't know
20 whether it was his daughter or somebody else's daughter, with a blanket
21 and she went towards the trailer crying.
22 Q. But you didn't see Haso when he was killed? You just heard the
24 A. Yes, that is right. And then afterwards I saw him when he was
25 already dead.
1 Q. In paragraph 37 you say that you were listening to the radio and
2 how Fadil Turkovic, the commander of the Muslim Green Berets had come to
3 Zaklopaca and killed 65 villagers in retaliation. This is paragraph 57.
4 Did you not hear that Fadil Turkovic came to a Serb village and killed
5 the inhabitants?
6 A. No, quite the opposite. This is correct, and I have witnesses
7 who were there. We all heard on the transistor radio that the Serbian
8 radio announced that Fadil Turkovic on such and such a day at such and
9 such a time killed Muslims in such and such a village because they did
10 not want to join the Green Berets.
11 Q. Thank you. And do you know that before the war Fadil Turkovic
12 was chief of the public security station in Vlasenica?
13 A. No. I'm sorry, no, sir, he was not the chief. He was the
14 commander of the station because that was the duty assigned to him along
15 the SDA line and the chief of the station was Rade Bjelanovic.
16 Q. I'm sorry, you are correct. So you confirm that he was the
17 commander of the station. Do you know that he organised the people, he
18 armed the people, and then escaped in mid-April before the JNA came. Of
19 course knowing about the telegrams because he received them. Did you
20 know that he organised and armed the people and escaped before the JNA
22 A. I don't know about him arming them, but I know that he did end up
23 going to Zepa, where he was from.
24 Q. And do you know that this was before the JNA came?
25 A. No, I don't know that.
1 Q. You say in paragraph 35:
2 "I went from the house towards the centre of the village to see
3 what was going on. There was still firing and there was chaos."
4 So you were not running from the centre, you went to the centre
5 of the village after these people did not shoot at you because you didn't
6 have any weapons. You went to the centre of the village. Is that
8 A. No, towards the centre of the village --
9 MS. EDGERTON: Um, what paragraph actually? It's not paragraph
10 35 or is that the very last sentence in paragraph 35 that reads:
11 "I left my house and wanted to go to the village centre to see
12 what was happening"?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but in the Serbian original it
15 "I did not want" -- oh, I see here that those two are joined --
16 no, they're not joined. 35 paragraph states that:
17 "I left my house and went towards the centre of the village to
18 see what was happening."
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Hodzic, you were not escaping but you went to the village to
21 see what was going on because you understood that they were not chasing
22 you and that they could have killed you had they wanted to?
23 A. No, that is not correct.
24 Q. So what it says in paragraph 35 is not correct?
25 A. It's not correct the way you put it in your question. You
1 skipped the paragraph where it says that there was shooting -- they were
2 shooting after me so I escaped to the centre of the village to escape the
4 Q. And that paragraph, when they fired at you, was not that one.
5 You said immediately after paragraph 35 it says that's where they found
6 you at the door and they did not shoot at you. And then in paragraph 35,
7 before there was any shooting at you, you said that you saw a man who was
8 lying down and then you understood his sign to mean that they should go
9 on - I don't want to mention any names. And then you said:
10 "I left my house to the centre of the village -- towards the
11 centre of the village to see what was happening. The shooting was still
12 going on and there was a lot of confusion."
13 Is this correct what you say or not?
14 A. It is not correct because I came to Murat's house and then I said
15 what happened after that. I was not going to the centre of the village,
16 I didn't manage to reach it.
21 A. He was shooting after me. I don't know why he didn't hit me.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Um, Your Honours, I wonder if we should have a
23 redaction at lines 17 to 20.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at
1 1004072 [as interpreted], please.
2 JUDGE KWON: Could you give the number again, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04072.
4 JUDGE KWON: It seems that Mr. Robinson's advice didn't work.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In what way, if you can please tell
6 me. I'm trying to check the assertions of this witness and I'm more
7 concerned about the statements that become evidence rather than
8 documents, which I will easily check through other witnesses. What I'm
9 concerned about is the attention the Trial Chamber will pay to
10 generalised statements by witnesses and I -- actually, I can only go
11 through this statement with this witness, with nobody else. I was given
12 advice, but my sense of danger from those statements is such that I feel
13 that I have to contest those statements.
14 JUDGE KWON: Well, I won't repeat what I said earlier on, but
15 this is -- this seems to be a statement given by a third person, and what
16 I told you yesterday to you was to have a word with Mr. Robinson whether
17 or not you should put a statement of a third person to the current
18 witness. And if yes, how to put it. Please proceed. You have five
19 minutes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you hear that -- or rather, do you see this statement of
22 Mr. Selimovic and these names that he mentions as an illegally armed
24 A. It is barely legible.
25 Q. Fadil, son of Ibis from Zaklopaca; Hamidovic Huso who you mention
1 from Zaklopaca; then Mustafa Avdic from Zaklopaca; then Avdic Selim from
2 Zaklopaca, all of these names --
3 A. There is no Selim Avdic in Zaklopaca.
4 JUDGE KWON: Next page in the English.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Amir Selimovic. It's more legible in English.
7 A. I see it now.
8 Q. Salihovic, I guess, not Selimovic from Zaklopaca and then this
9 one from Milici and so on. Are you saying that you did not know that
10 this group was armed with weapons that are not personal weapons but
11 military ones?
12 A. I repeat that I did not know of any group that had weapons and I
13 do not know of any statements.
14 Q. Thank you. But, Mr. Hodzic, if somebody is chasing after Huso
15 and Huso is armed and this somebody knows that Huso is armed, then you
16 should say that you do not know the reason why he is being chased?
17 A. This is the first time that I hear of Huso being chased. There
18 are two Husos. Who do you have in mind?
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic. Now, this description, how the attack
20 started, that is page 7 in Serbian and 5 and 6 in English, your
21 statement. You say that many cars passed by and in one case you say that
22 you were in the house shaving and in this other case you said something
23 different, in the interview you said something different. How do you
24 explain these discrepancies, differences?
25 A. I explained them because one statement is abbreviated and the
1 other one is given at greater length because that's what I was asked to
2 do. Locations -- I was asked to say exactly where I was at every point
3 in time. That is why the statements differ. One is shorter and the
4 other one is more specific.
5 Q. On page 7 in this statement and on page 6 probably in English you
6 say that you were confused and you remember that your mother told me in a
7 hurried way to go because she was afraid for you. You opened the door
8 and you saw two men in camouflage uniforms. On their sleeves they had
9 red ribbons. Why did your mother think that you were in danger rather
10 than her? Was it because you had deserted or because you were a
11 participant in some agreements about organising a unit?
12 MS. EDGERTON: Um, could I just ask which statement we're
13 referring to?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 22529, Serb page 7, English page 5
15 and then 6. This paragraph is probably on page 6.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Please go ahead.
19 A. My mother feared for her own safety too because she grabbed her
20 daughter-in-law, who was preparing some food at the time, and as she was
21 running through the hallway with her she knocked at my door and said,
22 "Run, what are you waiting for? There is shooting going on." Go and
23 check this. I did not organise anything.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies. If I
1 don't have any more time, I'm not going to call up any more documents.
2 Then I'm going to do it with somebody else.
3 Thank you, Mr. Hodzic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
6 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, briefly, Your Honours.
8 Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
9 Q. And, Mr. Hodzic.
10 MS. EDGERTON: If I can just have your indulgence for a moment,
11 Your Honours, to find the page reference.
12 Q. Mr. Hodzic, Dr. Karadzic said to you on page 49, lines 23 and 24,
13 he said:
14 "And then you saw that some people had been shot from hunting
15 rifles, is that correct, or with hunting ammunition?"
16 Do you remember that question?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Now, having just reviewed yesterday your statement as we talked
19 about earlier today, do you recall ever having said that some people had
20 been shot from hunting rifles or with hunting ammunition?
21 A. I think that I mentioned that.
22 Q. And when you mentioned that, who were you referring to?
23 A. Could you please repeat your question.
24 Q. If you mentioned people who had been shot with hunting rifles or
25 with -- using hunting ammunition, were you referring to the large group
1 of victims you thought -- you saw through the village or somebody else?
2 A. Five persons I saw with my own eyes: Rifet Hodzic,
3 Bajro Salihovic, Salko Salihovic, Becir Hodzic, and Bajro Salihovic.
4 Q. Thank you. That clarifies that. Now, in paragraph or at page 51
5 Dr. Karadzic asked you the question:
6 "In paragraph 37 you say that you were listening to the radio and
7 how Fadil Turkovic, the commander of the Muslim Green Berets, had come to
8 Zaklopaca and killed 65 villagers in retaliation."
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, was it not para 57? I think he
10 clarified later on.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps so, and then it would be my mistake,
12 Your Honours. Thank you.
13 Q. Do you remember Dr. Karadzic referring you to paragraph 57 of
14 your statement?
15 JUDGE KWON: We need to upload so that the witness can follow
16 what --
17 MS. EDGERTON: I think so.
18 JUDGE KWON: -- we are talking about.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Wonderful. Thank you.
20 Q. And Dr. Karadzic said -- oh, I see, Your Honours. This is
21 paragraph 57. "Did you not hear that Fadil Turkovic came to a Serb
22 village and killed the inhabitants." And you said:
23 "No, this is quite the opposite and I have witnesses who were
24 there. We all heard on the transistor radio announced that
25 Fadil Turkovic on such and such a day at such and such a time killed
1 Muslims in such and such a village because they did not want to join the
2 Green Berets."
3 To your knowledge was that radio report true in any regard?
4 A. That is impossible. For heaven's sake, why would a man come and
5 kill his own men? Fadil was not Mitar Simic's commander and the
6 commander of the other Serbs. Mr. Karadzic is saying that he was
7 commander of the Green Berets and there were no Serbs among the
8 Green Berets. Why would Fadil come and kill Muslims, his own people. It
9 is the Serbs who did that and not Fadil. This is a pure lie.
10 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any other questions in re-direct,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bazdar, now your evidence has come to an end --
15 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours, but that's Mr. Hodzic,
16 not Mr. Bazdar.
17 JUDGE KWON: Oh, I'm sorry. My apologies, Mr. Hodzic.
18 MS. EDGERTON: We've had a busy day.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we have.
20 Mr. Hodzic, your evidence has been concluded. On behalf of my
21 colleagues and the Tribunal as a whole, I thank you for coming to
22 The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you for your time, for listening to me.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: And have a pleasant trip back to --
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: -- home.
3 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, I just noticed in the
4 transcript today at page 50, lines 4 to 7 --
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 MS. EDGERTON: -- I think actually that that might call for a
7 redaction as well.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
9 statement, 1D4073.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be taken care of.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That proposal for decoration.
12 JUDGE KWON: We don't have the English translation for that, but
13 I suppose the Prosecution would not oppose to marking it for
15 MS. EDGERTON: If I could just have your indulgence for a second
16 to see, again, quickly which document --
17 JUDGE KWON: The proposition for decoration of Mustafa ...
18 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, no. I actually do object, Your Honour. The
19 witness did not confirm any part of that document in any regard, knew
20 absolutely nothing of it, and I think it hasn't passed any bench-mark.
21 The document, furthermore, doesn't appear to be an original document and,
22 frankly, I noticed further it's not related to the admissibility of the
23 document, Dr. Karadzic didn't read out all of the passage that was even
24 marked to the witness. But I do object to the admission of that
1 JUDGE KWON: But did the witness not deny the -- deny the
2 involvement in arming or whatever of that person in question, who was
3 proposed to be decorated? So in terms -- whether -- my question is: It
4 is contextually relevant.
5 MS. EDGERTON: I need to check the transcript, Your Honour. I
6 think he did not claim knowledge of it rather than specifically deny it,
7 which is, in my submission, a difference. If I --
8 JUDGE KWON: I think I see your point. Thank you.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic, would you like to
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think that your approach is
13 correct, that if we can only admit documents that a witness agrees with
14 then we're creating a skewed form of admissibility and when a document is
15 contradictory to the witness and he explains it then it ought to be
16 admitted for its context and I think that's the case here.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
18 Would you like to add, Mr. Tieger?
19 MR. TIEGER: Just to keep our eye on the ball of what I think
20 have been an evolving set of guide-lines. Of course there's no dispute
21 that where a document is used for appropriate contextual reasons or to
22 impeach a witness, that it's not necessary for the witness to affirm its
23 contents. But that leaves aside the -- or begs the question of the
24 underlying indicia of authenticity about the document as used. Otherwise
25 any document could be presented to a witness who would in the guise of
1 impeachment. So I understood there are basically two factors governing
2 the admissibility of documents used for impeachment or context. And one
3 is of course whether that is its purpose; and number two, other indicia
4 of reliability or authenticity. No question in instances where we've had
5 contemporaneous documents produced by various official entities. And
6 then I -- there's a bit of a sliding scale thereafter. So I think the
7 issue under discussion here is: Where does this document come from? To
8 what extent can it be relied on for this purpose.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just for my memory. The witness did confirm that he
10 knew that person in question, did he not?
11 MS. EDGERTON: I have what I see right now is the witness
12 repeating that he does not know of any group that had weapons --
13 JUDGE KWON: No, that person --
14 MS. EDGERTON: -- and he did not know of any statements. And as
15 for the person ...
16 JUDGE KWON: With the first name of Mustafa, if my memory is
17 correct -- I will consult my colleagues.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may add something, this is an
21 original Telex of the committee commemorating the anniversary of
22 Srebrenica. There's a date, there's a number and there's a reference to
23 the body that made the proposal. You cannot place a stamp on a Telex.
24 And the Army of Republika Srpska seized this in Srebrenica.
25 JUDGE KWON: When the other party is challenging the authenticity
1 and in -- in particular in the case where the witness did not confirm
2 content of any part of the document, you need to call a witness who can
3 introduce that document in a proper way. Your questions remain an -- and
4 answer of the witness will remain in the transcript and the document
5 later admitted can be used to assess the credibility of the witness. In
6 that regards we will not admit this document through this witness.
7 Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Can I rise on one further almost by now
9 administrative thing. I had asked for paragraph 37 to be redacted, I see
10 also paragraph 39 will need to be of the 92 ter written evidence of this
12 JUDGE KWON: In its entirety?
13 MS. EDGERTON: I think that's safer, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That will be done.
15 Very well, for -- shall we go into private session briefly.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 18468 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
20 JUDGE KWON: Given the time, the Chamber will take a break for an
21 hour and resume at 25 past 1.00.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.23 p.m.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 --- On resuming at 1.29 p.m.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 18471-18473 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
9 JUDGE KWON: If the witness takes the solemn declaration, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE KWON: Sir, I once again would like to inform you on behalf
15 of the Chamber that you will be testifying today with the benefit of
16 pseudonym, which is KDZ-607, image and voice distortion. This means that
17 there will be no reference to your real name or information which might
18 reveal your identity to the public or media. The audio/visual record of
19 your testimony which is broadcast to the public will have a distorted
20 image which can be shown at the monitor right now, like this, to ensure
21 that your identity is protected and the transcript, while available to
22 the public, will always refer to your pseudonym. Do you understand, sir?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 Ms. Edgerton.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
2 Could we have 65 ter number 90274 called up, please.
3 WITNESS: KDZ-607
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
6 Q. Mr. Witness, on the computer monitor in front of you within a
7 couple of seconds you're going to see a sheet of paper. And when you see
8 it, I would like you to tell us whether or not your name appears there
9 correctly. All right. Just hang on for a couple of moments.
10 Do you see your name now, Mr. Witness, on the computer screen in
11 front of you?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have that pseudonym sheet marked as our
14 first Prosecution exhibit in relation to this witness, please.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Of course under seal.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P3288 under
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, you have given statements to authorities or
21 offices from your own country as well as to representatives from the
22 Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you've also testified in another court about what happened to
25 you in 1992; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, on the 1st of September, last week, you met with more
3 representatives from the Office of the Prosecutor and they read back to
4 you another statement. And that statement put together parts of your
5 evidence from your earlier statements and transcripts so that it's
6 organised in a chronological way; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And at that time you made some corrections and you added some
9 information and you clarified some information in that statement, didn't
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you signed it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And with those changes, is that statement you signed last week
15 accurate as far as you remember the events it talks about?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And if today I was to ask you all the same questions you were
18 asked when you gave your earlier statements and you testified in other
19 trials, would your answers be the same?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Then, Your Honours, could we have the amalgamated
22 statement of this witness, 65 ter 90272, as the next Prosecution exhibit
23 under seal, please.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3289 under seal, Your Honours.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Now, because of the nature of the evidence in
2 regard to this witness, I don't intend on reading a summary and will move
3 directly to some questions related to the written evidence we've just
5 Q. Mr. Witness, when you listened to your statement on the 1st of
6 September being read back to you and also when we met this last weekend
7 to prepare for you to come here today, you looked at a number of
8 documents. Do you remember that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I just want to talk about some of these documents briefly with
11 you. In your written evidence at paragraph 15, you refer to a photo of
12 Rasadnik farm and make a comment on it, and that was a black-and-white
13 photo. Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could we just --
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Ms. Edgerton. My apology for
17 intervention, but shall we go into private session briefly.
18 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look at 19145E, please. Thank
24 Q. Mr. Witness, is that a colour version of the photograph you
25 commented on in your written statement at paragraph 15?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, this is simply offered up now
4 rather than the black-and-white photograph so that we can have a clearer
5 depiction of the image. So I'd like to tender that as a Prosecution
6 exhibit, please.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3290, Your Honours.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. At paragraph 54 of your written evidence you referred to a
11 lengthy document which was a series of exhumation records relating to
12 remains exhumed from a mass grave site. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Could we see, please, 65 ter number 09394 without
15 broadcasting it, and starting at page 2 of the document in both English
16 and B/C/S move slowly through the first few pages. If we could go to the
17 next page, please, in B/C/S. And the next page. And one page following
18 in B/C/S.
19 Q. Mr. Witness, looking at the first few pages of this document, can
20 you say whether this is the same document you reviewed and commented on
21 in your statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As you reviewed this document, did you have a look at the names
24 of those people whose remains were identified?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did those names correspond with the list of persons you
2 identified as victims in paragraph 48 and 49 of your statement?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have that, please, as the next
5 Prosecution exhibit, please, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure of the status of this document be
7 admitted it as P3276, only part of it.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Only two pages of it, Your Honour, so now I would
9 like to move the whole file, the witness having reviewed the whole file.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I think the first eight pages
11 should be admitted, but the other document -- this is a 69-page document.
12 Beyond the names there's no real connection between that other
13 information and this witness.
14 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any response?
15 MS. EDGERTON: Um, the certificates that the witness reviewed
16 establish the death of the persons killed in this case, Your Honours, and
17 I would say they're relevant.
18 JUDGE KWON: I take it you don't dispute the authenticity of this
20 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view there's a basis to admit
23 the document in its entirety. That will be done -- or added -- that will
24 be added to the existing document.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE KWON: That will be done, that will be added to the
2 existing exhibit, but shall I go -- shall we go into private session
4 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go now to 65 ter number 07047.
22 Q. Mr. Witness, this document is dated 14 June 2004 and it's an
23 official record prepared by the Ministry of the Interior of the
24 Republika Srpska regarding collection centres in Rogatica.
25 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could go into private session for this
1 question, please, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could go over to the second page in the
24 original document.
25 Q. Mr. Witness, do you see those two names we've just spoken about
1 on the list in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: One question about this document that I think I
5 should ask in private session, please.
6 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go back to page 1 of this document.
17 Q. And, Mr. Witness, could you tell us if you see the name of the
18 individual we've just spoken about on this list?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to try and tender this document, please,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: As well as the previous one?
24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, no objection as to this
3 As to the previous one, Mr. President, if you look at the text, I
4 think that what the witness had to say about this document is so limited
5 compared to what the conclusions that the text draws that it would be
6 unfair to admit this document. This was a document that was created in
7 2004 and it's some kind of investigation that was done or conclusions
8 that were made well after these events, more than ten years after the
9 events, as to who was responsible for various facilities. And these are
10 issues that we think that this witness doesn't sufficiently speak to the
11 document about to warrant its admission. He can say what he observed at
12 the places where he were, but to use that as a bootstrap to admit
13 someone's conclusions from Republika Srpska about who was in charge of
14 these facilities, we don't think that that's fair, given the fact that we
15 don't have anyone to really confront about the conclusions that are being
16 drawn from -- in this document.
17 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to respond, Ms. Edgerton?
18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, the witness's evidence, admittedly,
19 with respect to this document is limited to identifying the location or
20 identifying the detention facility where he was housed. Establishing
21 that there was or could have been no other place than that facility that
22 the document refers to and I actually think given that evidence it passes
23 the established bench-mark here in these proceedings for document
25 JUDGE KWON: All the witness did was to identify the building
1 where he was detained.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: This is a document from the Republika Srpska. I
5 don't know that there is any dispute as to its authenticity.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber agrees with the observation of
8 Mr. Robinson and this will not be admitted through this witness, but
9 we'll give the number for 70330.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit Number P3291.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 If we could just go into private session for the first part of
13 the question in relation to the next document, I would appreciate that.
14 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
16 JUDGE KWON: I take it there's no objection?
17 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
18 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3292, Your Honours.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. And I have no further questions from
22 this witness, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: As indicated, the Chamber will have a break for ten
24 minutes. In the meantime I would like to encourage the parties to have a
25 word as to how to proceed in terms of cross-examination, in particular
1 what should be dealt with in private session and what should be -- what
2 can be discussed in public session.
3 We'll resume at 2.30.
4 --- Break taken at 2.19 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Um, Your Honour, I've reviewed the paragraphs that
8 we think could be dealt with in open session and discussed them with
9 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Robinson, and we will do our best. Dr. Karadzic, we
10 realised, will have some difficulty because he is working with an older
11 version of the amalgamated statement, although this version with the
12 changes was disclosed to him in plenty of time. Sometimes with the best
13 intentions on all our parts, things go awry. And so with your
14 understanding in that regard, we will do our best.
15 And before I sit down I just wanted to because I hadn't before we
16 broke, move the remaining associated exhibits that weren't otherwise
17 dealt with with this witness in oral testimony into evidence, please.
18 JUDGE KWON: A couple of associated exhibits have been dealt
19 with -- one we deal with it.
20 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: And there are some that have been already admitted.
22 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct.
23 JUDGE KWON: Can I draw your attention to the document with
24 65 ter number 07047, which is referred to in para 56.
25 MS. EDGERTON: And that is the one that Your Honours have ruled
1 should be --
2 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] --
3 MS. EDGERTON: -- dealt with with another witness. So when I
4 said those that weren't dealt with in oral testimony, I included that
5 because it wasn't dealt with.
6 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] -- I meant to refer to the
7 next one 07330, which is referred to in para 57. If you read para 57,
8 all that the witness said is that:
9 "I haven't been shown this document, payment list."
10 MS. EDGERTON: Um, we dealt with that in live evidence,
11 Your Honours, and Mr. Robinson was asked whether he had any objection to
12 its admission --
13 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes.
14 MS. EDGERTON: -- and he did not.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That was admitted at 3291. I noted
16 erroneously the number. Thank you.
17 Then the others can be admitted -- actually, 19145A.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
19 JUDGE KWON: That will be admitted as -- we give the number right
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3293, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: And 19145C.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Will be Exhibit P3294.
24 MS. EDGERTON: And I think --
25 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] --
1 MS. EDGERTON: -- that covers it, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: And after today I will be reviewing the
4 transcript, Your Honours, to see what can go back into open session.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I have to kindly ask you and be mindful of it myself that we
12 should be making a pause between question and answer in order that the
13 interpreters may interpret what we are saying.
14 Were you aware of the presence of two armies in the area you
16 A. I don't understand the question.
17 Q. Were you aware that there were two armed forces, two armies,
18 present in the area where you lived?
19 A. I don't know which two armed forces are you referring to.
20 Q. Were you aware that there were armed Serbs in various formations
21 there as well as armed Muslims, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. In my area, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was not present at the
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P3292 called up.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. While we're waiting for it to appear, Mr. Witness, do you agree
2 that in the direction of Central Bosnia the separation lines between the
3 Muslim and Serbian armies were west of Kaljina, near Sokolac, close to
4 Olovo and Kladanj?
5 A. I'm -- don't know about that.
6 Q. Would you be so kind as to look at the document you were reading,
7 Kozarde, Kramer Selo, et cetera, where it is stated:
8 "A concentrated presence of the enemy forces was noted, probably
9 the intention is to cut off the Srednje-Nisici road, et cetera. So the
10 telegram that was shown a moment ago and admitted into evidence speaks
11 about an increased presence of your forces there. Were you aware of
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at without it being broadcast your
15 statement paragraph 38.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 12, please, or
17 rather, paragraph 38, wherever it may be, but I do believe it's on page
18 12 -- 13, that is.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Look at what it is you have to say there and I will read it in
22 [In English] [As read] "... According to my information, which I
23 learned when I reached the free territory, the defenders of the Army of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina were attacked at that elevation, they all went up
25 towards the elevation."
1 [Interpretation] And then, speaking about the critical day, I
2 will not mention what the event was, you say that there were also persons
3 wounded and killed; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was this other side that wounded these individuals and
6 killed several Serbs?
7 A. I don't know about the killing of the Serbs, but I do know that
8 when we were being used as human shield there were people wounded among
9 us. Some people say that three persons were wounded. I know the names
10 of two. I don't know about the third one.
11 Q. And what was the army against which you were used as a human
13 A. Against the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. This means that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was present after
16 A. Yes, but you asked me about the Kalinovik area which I wasn't
17 aware of. The first question you put to me had to do with Kalinovik, and
18 that's on the side opposite to the area where we were used as a human
20 Q. Thank you. That must have been an error in interpretation
21 because I said "in the area where you lived." So where you lived, in
22 your municipality, the telegram which makes reference to these various
23 villages, does it accurately report about the fact that the enemy forces
24 were observed and of course to the author of the telegram, that would
25 have been the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. Well, the villages that I mentioned did not have the presence of
2 the BH army at all. Let me just tell you my village had 57 inhabitants.
3 22 of them were men, the rest were women. Six of them moved out. I am
4 giving you the information as per the 1991 census. In 1992 six of them
5 had already moved out. Out of the 22 men, four were elderly individuals,
6 65 and above, and there were five minors. So how can one speak of an
7 army at all in those terms.
8 Q. Thank you. If we have any time left, we'll get back to that. In
9 your earlier statements you also speak of the circumstances prevailing in
10 your municipality and say that the Serbs set up their own Assembly and
11 introduced parallel municipal structures. Is it not true that the Serbs
12 and the Muslims, i.e., the SDS and the SDA, agreed that the municipality
13 would be transformed into two municipalities, Serb and Muslim, and that
14 the Serbian Assembly functioned as a Deputies Club or as a part of the
15 National Assembly and that the Executive Committee did not exist at all
16 until the outbreak of hostilities, until May?
17 A. In early 1992, or rather, in late 1991, the Serbian Municipal
18 Assembly was set up headed by Tomislav Batinic, who had up to that point
19 been the legitimate president or president of a legitimate Municipal
21 Q. However, the joint Assembly continued to work; right?
22 A. Well, I don't know. I know that for a while the Assembly did not
23 work. I think it was from December 1991 until May 1992.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you know that they divided, or rather, agreed to
25 divide the building. Half of it was the Serb municipality, the other
1 half of it was the Muslim municipality, and also the public security
2 station, half to the Serbs and half to the Muslims and they had their
3 separate doors and they even celebrated that with a cocktail party?
4 A. I know about the police station, but I don't know about the
5 agreement. The police was divided because the Serbs said that they no
6 longer trusted the Muslims. I'm sorry, let me just go back to this
7 establishment of a Serb municipality. At the time they were justifying
8 it by a lack of balance in the members of the Assembly, in the Municipal
9 Assembly. The Bosniaks won 30 seats and the Serbs 20. So they said that
10 they wanted to have the police divided because they no longer trusted the
11 Muslims. They said that the police had to be divided willy-nilly.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you think that that happened only in your
13 municipality or do you think that that was at the level of all of Bosnia
14 within the conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina?
15 A. I'm not aware of what was going on in the territory of all of
17 Q. So there was an agreement and it was signed that there would be
18 two municipalities and two public security stations; right?
19 A. Yes, that's right. But however, as far as I know, there was an
20 ultimatum there, that that would happen willy-nilly, by hook or by crook.
21 Q. Mr. Witness, do you know that we accepted to have Bosnia leave
22 Yugoslavia on those conditions and that that was a precondition? Do you
23 know that; yes or no?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 58 you say that there was a division, or
1 rather, Rogatica complied with the requests of the Serbs to have a
2 division of the municipality and in the police, but you say that the
3 Serbs were not satisfied and were terrorising the people by putting up
4 check-points - what was the word? - and so on and so forth. Are you
5 saying that the Serbs gave up on the division or was it the Muslims who
6 gave up on it?
7 A. Well, as I have said, the division took place because that is
8 what the Serbs wanted and they said that that would happen, willy-nilly,
9 by hook or by crook.
10 Q. Who said that to you, Mr. Witness, that that is the way that it
11 would be?
12 A. No one said that to me, but these people who attended the
13 negotiations then on the division of the police, they claimed that, and
14 you can see who attended at the time, who the Bosniaks were who were
15 working on this division with the Serb side.
16 Q. Over here you say that the Serbs started terrorising people and
17 putting up check-points - what do we call them, check-points?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were the Serbs the first to put up check-points? You refer to
20 April here. When did the first check-points appear?
21 A. I know that it was at the exit out of Rogatica. I used to go
22 there towards Sarajevo. I heard that in the so-called Karanfil Mahala
23 there was one check-point. As for these barricades, the first barricades
24 were between the municipality building and the hotel. The Serbs
25 blockaded that area.
1 Q. So that means that the Serb barricades came first?
2 A. Well, I meant barricades not check-points.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter number 07835. I believe
4 it's actually been admitted already. I believe it has a P number. 07835
5 is the 65 ter number.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. What is your recollection in terms of the date when any kind of
8 barricades appeared, April or before that?
9 A. I cannot remember. It's been quite a while. I cannot remember
10 exactly. I cannot give you the exact date when this started. I know for
11 sure that it was before the 15th of April.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Witness, please take a look at this. An
13 agreement was reached to divide the municipality to have every local
14 commune with the Muslim population conduct its own business within its
15 own municipality and the Serbs in their own. The Serb policemen should
16 keep law and order in Serb areas and Muslims in Muslim areas. And then
17 on the 23rd of March, look at this first sentence, the Muslims are
18 putting up barricades and the Serbs respond on the 24th. Look at the
19 first three lines of this report sent to the BH Presidency.
20 A. I see that.
21 Q. So you don't know who it was that put up roadblocks first, you
22 think it was the Serbs?
23 A. Yes, what I saw. I can speak about what I saw myself. I cannot
24 talk about things that I have not seen myself. I know for sure that at
25 this so-called Karanfil Mahala there were Serb check-points as you call
1 them and there were checks carried out there.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has been admitted? It has a P
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P3271, Your Honours.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Then you talk about Karanfil Mahala and about people, Serbs, who
9 were at those check-points conducting the checks. What were they
11 A. They wore camouflage uniforms and SMB uniforms, olive-green-grey.
12 I do not remember the insignia they had.
13 Q. Thank you. You then say in paragraph 3 of your statement --
14 actually, you talk about work, don't you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon. It's some different
17 paragraph. Just a moment, please. Paragraph 9 on page 3, if it's still
18 the same, I mean if the numbers are still the same.
19 You say that because of the security situation that was becoming
20 increasingly complex, the safety of the citizens was jeopardised, the
21 management of the company where you worked decided in mid-April 1992 that
22 you should go to work only once a week. You say that as far as you
23 remember it was only on Mondays. Since you lived in the country, you
24 went to work by bus; right?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Thank you. Until when did you work?
2 A. I worked until the 15th of April.
3 Q. But over here it says that in mid-April it was decided that you
4 would only go to work once a week. How long did that go on?
5 A. Before I used to come in only on Mondays, but after the 15th of
6 April I never came again. I never came again, other employees did, but I
7 did not.
8 Q. Why not?
9 A. I did not go because there were these check-points, as I said,
10 and because these checks were carried out, these searches and I was
11 afraid. I'm not sure exactly what the date was, but Batanovic, when he
12 wanted to go around that roadblock, trying to avoid it, he was arrested.
13 Q. Ah-ha. Why would that be a reason for them to arrest you?
14 A. I don't know. There was no reason, but there was no reason for
15 what I experienced and look at what happened to me.
16 Q. However, you said in your statement dated the 12th of January,
17 1994, paragraph 2, that in mid-April, because of these check-points, you
18 and most Muslims decided not to go to work, right, for a while. That's
19 what your statement says.
20 A. On the 15th of April, as far as I know, the Romanija Corps passed
21 through Rogatica -- actually, it was on the 14th of April. They passed
22 through all their equipment and there was shooting in town. And on the
23 next day people didn't go to work again. I personally did not go
24 anymore. On the 14th of April I went to Rogatica for the last time and I
25 never went again. I don't know whether other people came.
1 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that on the 15th of April the
2 Romanija Corps did not exist?
3 A. I'm saying that I don't know which corps it was, but I do know
4 that a large convoy passed through town, then they came from Kovan, I was
5 in Rogatica at the time and they went in the direction of Mesici. Which
6 corps it was exactly, I don't know.
7 Q. So Kovan is farther away from the Serbian border and Mesici is
8 closer to the Serbian border, so they passed through this part of Bosnia,
9 going from the depth of Bosnia to the outskirts of Bosnia, right, towards
11 A. I told you where they went and I don't know where they went after
13 Q. However, it would be a good thing if the Trial Chamber knew
14 whether Kovan is closer to Serbia or is it Mesici that is closer to
16 A. Well, Mesici is closer to Serbia.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I note the time, so we'll adjourn for
19 today and continue tomorrow morning.
20 Sir, during the break -- we'll continue tomorrow, but during the
21 break you are required not to discuss with anybody else about your
22 testimony. I take it that you understand that?
23 We'll start tomorrow at 10.00 and we'll sit until 3.30, as
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.59 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of
2 September, 2011, at 10.00 a.m.