Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18501

 1                           Wednesday, 7 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 10.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Although we have curtain

 6     drawn down, we are in private session -- no, in public session.  Yes,

 7     Mr. Tieger?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And thank you for the

 9     reminder that we are currently in open session.  I'd like to address a

10     number of scheduling matters but I think it's probably best done in

11     private session, given the number of factors involved.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  May the Court proceed into private session.

13                           [Private session]

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Page 18502











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Page 18503

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20                           [Open session]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, with respect to the recently filed

22     58th motion for finding of disclosure violation and for sanctions,

23     Witness KDZ052, the Chamber observes that this motion pertains to an

24     upcoming witness, KDZ052, who is scheduled to testify next week.  So can

25     the Prosecution orally respond to this motion during the course of today?

Page 18504

 1     And I would like the Prosecution to identify in its response why the

 2     transcript of the testimony referred to in the motion was not disclosed

 3     earlier.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             MR. TIEGER:  We were in the process of preparing an expedited

 6     written submission, Mr. President.  We had expected to file today, if

 7     that's acceptable.  We can proceed if the Court would prefer an oral

 8     response.  We are always at the court's disposal.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then we will go back to private session

10     and continue with the evidence.  I was mistaken.  We can continue in

11     public session.  Yes, Ms. Edgerton?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, if I may, I'd like to be excused so I

13     can go and continue the preparation for the -- KDZ601, and we being a

14     team in the Prosecution, Mr. Tieger is fully briefed to be able to

15     proceed in my absence.

16             JUDGE KWON:  No problem, Ms. Edgerton.

17                           WITNESS:  KDZ607 [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

21     Excellencies, good morning to everyone.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: (Continued)

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

24        A.   Good morning, Dr. Karadzic.

25        Q.   Were you aware of a massacre against Serbs at Borike by the

Page 18505

 1     Muslim forces on the 6th of May, 1992?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned Zlatni Do in your statement dated 12th

 4     of January, 1994, in paragraph 2.  I do believe we can find it in your

 5     amalgamated statement as well.  Do you know that on the 22nd of May, or

 6     perhaps or most probably on the 20th of May, a Serb policeman was

 7     killed -- rather, it was on 21 May.  Drazenko Mihajlovic, whilst he was

 8     patrolling an area which belonged to the Serb municipality in the place

 9     where you lived?

10        A.   I don't know that he was killed.

11        Q.   Then you most certainly do not know that they refused to hand

12     over his body and said that they would not do so before they had killed

13     ten more Serbs?

14        A.   I was not aware of that.

15        Q.   Did you know to which constituent unit was your municipality

16     supposed to belong under the Cutileiro Plan and the Vance Owen and the

17     Owen Stoltenberg plans, the latter of which I agreed to, including the

18     contact group plan?

19        A.   No.  I didn't know that.

20        Q.   If I were to tell you that without a war and armed conflict,

21     whatever the prevailing variant, your municipality and other

22     municipalities of the valley -- of the Drina valley would belong to the

23     federation unit, what would you have to say to that?

24        A.   Can you please clarify your question?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger?

Page 18506

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I object, Your Honour.  It's irrelevant.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When we get to paragraph 54, you

 4     will see what the relevance is.

 5             Can we now look at 1D883 in e-court, please?

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Were Medjedja and Ustipraca close to your municipality and, in

 8     fact, did they share a border?

 9        A.   Yes.  They are right next to one another.

10        Q.   Do you know that at the time of the relevant events, at Ustipraca

11     and Medjedja there were 3.000 Muslim fighters who were trying to link up

12     the Drina valley with Central Bosnia?

13        A.   Just tell me which year that was, please.

14        Q.   Precisely in the months when this particular event took place.

15        A.   I was not aware of such a number being present there.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Please have a look at this map.  If you disregard the

17     yellow line, which indicates the data on Bosnia-Herzegovina, this is a

18     second plotted map by Ambassador Cutileiro, the other one is a bit more

19     favourable for the Serbs, can you find your municipality on this map?

20        A.   I can't find my way around the map.  I know that Rogatica is in

21     the southern part of Eastern Bosnia.

22        Q.   Can you tell where Gorazde is and can you see that it does belong

23     to the federation, even here?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the Usher please help the

Page 18507

 1     witness to use the electronic pen?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   If you can tell where Foca is, would you place an F there, where

 4     Gorazde is, G, Visegrad, V, and then your municipality.  You will know

 5     how they stand to each other, et cetera.

 6        A.   Is that what -- what map is that?

 7        Q.   This was the first map on offer that I agreed to.

 8        A.   I can't make the markings.

 9        Q.   Do you see where Gorazde is?  It is still in the federation

10     within the yellow line.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Why do you have to rely on this witness to mark the

12     place Gorazde, Foca and Visegrad?  We can all know those places by

13     comparing with other maps.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the witness would be able to

15     mark his municipality, and this in order to indicate that even without a

16     war, the municipality would end up belonging to the Muslims.

17             JUDGE KWON:  You can put that question just simply.  Yes,

18     Mr. Tieger?

19             MR. TIEGER:  You're quite right, Mr. President, and this is an

20     effort to circumvent what would otherwise be an impossible attempt to

21     introduce this document through this witness.  We know where the

22     municipality is.  Simply identifying the location of the municipality on

23     this map, which the accused is trying to testify about, without benefit

24     of any input from the witness, doesn't add anything to this exhibit.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I agree, Mr. Tieger.

Page 18508

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, I would like to direct your attention to

 3     paragraph 54 of your statement.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you direct me the -- to the

 5     proper number of the paragraph?  54 probably has been edited.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  There might have been a

 7     modification done.  It's paragraph 55 in the new version.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Under A, did you know from personal knowledge that on the

10     20th of April, 1992, in Jabuka, people were used as human shields?

11        A.   Yes, I knew about that.

12        Q.   How did you come to know that?

13        A.   Because I spoke to a witness called Mujezinovic --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let us upload his 92 ter statement, para 55,

15     Exhibit P3289.  We shouldn't broadcast the first page.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we keep the map for a moment,

17     please?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you not describe the attempt to have you

20     transferred to Olovo?

21        A.   We wanted to go to Olovo.  When my village came under attack on

22     the 2nd of August, 1992, the 23 of us, among whom there were 14 men and

23     nine women, wanted to go in the direction of Olovo.

24        Q.   Thank you.  My question is how far did you get and why didn't you

25     reach Olovo?

Page 18509

 1        A.   We weren't able to reach Olovo because of the fighting that broke

 2     out there.  On our way there, we came across an ambush and this made it

 3     impossible for us to proceed.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And could you use this map to indicate the route you

 5     took?  Is it not true that you moved along the red area, which is the

 6     municipality of Sokolac, and that this was Serb held territory and that

 7     the confrontation line stood where the yellow line is between Olovo and

 8     Sokolac, that it was there and it stayed there?

 9        A.   I am unable to mark this on the map but I do know and I can

10     explain the route that we took, if need be.

11        Q.   Thank you.  It doesn't mean much to us unless you can draw it on

12     the map.  Very well.  So you wouldn't know this from personal knowledge,

13     somebody else told you about the 20th of April, right?

14        A.   Yes.  The survivor who lived in Gorazde and survived the

15     human-shield incident.

16        Q.   Very well.  Did you personally witness the killing at Kalimanic

17     in the month of June 1992?

18        A.   I wasn't an eyewitness there but there was an eyewitness who

19     survived the killings, who lived in Gorazde and told me the story.

20        Q.   So you would be able to convey his words and what you say are his

21     words, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Were you aware, did you know about what is listed under C, that

24     in July 1992, in the village of Novoseoci, a large group of Muslims were

25     taken from the village?  Were you there?  Did you see that happen?

Page 18510

 1        A.   No.  I did not see it happen.  I heard it.  But it was confirmed

 2     subsequently since the bodies were exhumed and then buried.

 3        Q.   Very well.  And now, about the incident of the 2nd of August at

 4     Kramer Selo, were you there, did you see it with your own eyes?

 5        A.   No, I wasn't there, but recently an exhumation was conducted and

 6     DNA results are imminent to -- and they would confirm that these were

 7     indeed the individuals involved.

 8        Q.   Now, as for the views described in paragraph 4 and your general

 9     political views, were they the result of personal knowledge?

10        A.   Which political events?

11        Q.   In the aftermath of the elections, the events in general.  Were

12     you following these events?

13        A.   I don't know what you want me to tell you.  Do you want me to say

14     how many seats were won by each of the sides in the elections?

15        Q.   Well, for instance, in paragraph 12, you referred again to an

16     attack on Kramer Selo.  Were you aware of the attacks conducted by the

17     Muslims against the Serb villages in your municipality?

18        A.   I was not.

19        Q.   Do you know of any Serb village that was torched in your

20     municipality?

21        A.   No.  I did tell you that I lived in a village which lies in the

22     direction of Sarajevo, so I knew of the Muslim villages that were burned

23     but I didn't know of a single Serb village burned.

24        Q.   Very well.  Do you know what the objectives of the Army of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina were in relation to your municipality?

Page 18511

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Witness, yes, Mr. Tieger?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, I would just like to encourage Mr. Karadzic

 3     and the witness to attempt to pause between question and answer.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your intervention.  Please bear in

 5     mind that it's important to pause between the question and answers again.

 6             Yes, Mr. Witness, can you answer the question now?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know what the tasks of the

 8     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were.  I know for a fact, however, that the

 9     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina defended the Muslim population.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Witness, that the objective of the Muslim army

12     was the liberation of the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13        A.   I don't think that that was the goal.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 11, you refer to the 22nd of May and you

15     mentioned Zlatni Do, and yet you do not know that a policeman by the name

16     of Mihajlovic was killed on the 22nd of May in Zlatni Do and that this

17     marked the beginning of the war?

18        A.   I don't know that the policeman was killed.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wonder, Your Excellencies, would

21     it be appropriate for you to suggest to the Prosecution that they do not

22     make such all-inclusive and comprehensive statements for witnesses who

23     only have knowledge about one event?  The Defence is under pressure to

24     shed light on each and every incident and the witness doesn't know much

25     about any of them, so why doesn't the statement include only this one

Page 18512

 1     incident the witness knows of?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  It's another example of improper statement from you.

 3     It's for you to cross-examine.  You can ask the question.  Then if the

 4     witness doesn't know, then you should live with it.  Please get on with

 5     your cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In your statement dated the 12th of January, 1994, you say that

 9     there were rumours of the Chetniks taking Muslims prisoner and harassing

10     them and killing them.  What exactly are you referring to when you talk

11     of their capture?

12        A.   Can you please clarify your question somewhat?

13        Q.   In your statement, dated the 12th of January, 1992 [as

14     interpreted], in paragraph 2, you say that there were rumours of the

15     Chetniks holding Muslims captive, harassing them and killing them.

16        A.   Yes.  There was harassment, of course.  And according to the

17     stories that were going around, there was mistreatment, imprisonment,

18     arrests.

19        Q.   These were rumours, right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you're talking about Mehmedagic and Bahtanovic.  Are there

22     two Bahtanovics or just one?

23        A.   There is just one Bahtanovic who was arrested with his brother.

24     When he tried to bypass a check-point in Mahala, he went through

25     Zivaljevina and I know that he was arrested as well as his brother.

Page 18513

 1        Q.   Do you know his role in arming and organising Muslims in your

 2     municipality?

 3        A.   No, I don't.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know about the role of Mehmedagic who in

 5     peacetime was the chief of the Territorial Defence and, in May, he went

 6     to his village and took up the command of a unit that was prepared?

 7        A.   I know that he worked in the TO headquarters.

 8        Q.   And do you know that he continued -- actually, he left the town

 9     immediately and took up command of units?

10        A.   Can you please tell me which units and which village?

11        Q.   Well, then, we have to show you his statement where all of that

12     is mentioned.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't need to have the document

14     admitted.  We just want to show it.  It's 1D04167.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I can just take this opportunity

16     while the document is coming up.  I know we are going to show the witness

17     a statement of a third party and you invited me to give Dr. Karadzic

18     advice, and I'm sorry if I'm disappointing you, but my advice to him is

19     that it's okay to show a witness a third-party statement if he thinks

20     that there is something in the third-party statement that could be --

21     elicit positive evidence from the witness and that he should put a very

22     pointed question to the witness about the third-party statement.  So

23     I didn't want you to think that he was acting against my advice, although

24     sometimes he doesn't do it in exactly the way that I would have done it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I would like him to put his question first and after

Page 18514

 1     having heard the witness's answer, and if he finds it is necessary and

 2     helpful to suggest the relevant part of the statement, then he does it,

 3     but just starting with these third parties statement outright, I don't

 4     think it helps the proceedings very much.  And he spends a lot of time

 5     reading it.  And reading the -- reading the statements part --

 6     third-party statements which will not be admitted means nothing.  If you

 7     could tell him that.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I told him that and I think it's important

 9     that he comes to a very small, conclusive point when he exhibits a

10     third-party statement.  I think he's attempting to do that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  He should understand.  Let's see.  Yes,

12     Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, but just to follow up on that so there is no

14     misunderstanding.  I understand the point to be that if the witness knows

15     nothing about it, then the time spent in dwelling on the statement is

16     useless and that's why the predicate approach suggested by the Court is

17     far more efficient.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  But the witness might be more inclined to accept

20     the assertion if they see it's part of the statement, so I would think

21     possibly in some cases it could be more beneficial to show the statement,

22     but we understand the Chamber's point.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at page 5?  It's

24     probably a higher page number in e-court, probably.  It's probably page 9

25     but at the bottom it says page 5.

Page 18515

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can I please ask you to look at the bottom where it says:

 3             "At the time no organ of power in Rogatica was functioning.

 4     I was resolving all the questions as the commander of the TO with my

 5     associates, Ajanovic Memnun, Semso Dedajic, Kasim Delic, Nermin Pisto,

 6     Osman Muhic, Emir Braulovic.  I was appointed to the post at about the

 7     15th of April, 1992, by Lutvic Adil at the time.  I worked in a

 8     co-ordinated way with units in the village of Kramer Selo, Kovanj, Zepa,

 9     Kukavica, and in town with neighbourhoods Podljun and Podhrid.  I was in

10     the Zivaljevina sector where my command post was."

11             Mr. Witness, from the 15th of April, this man had units in Kramer

12     Selo, Kovanj, Zepa, Kukavica, and you say that you don't know anything

13     about that.

14        A.   I don't want to comment on that.  I said that I was in my own

15     village.  I was not in these other villages.  I don't know what his

16     assignments were.  My village is not mentioned anywhere here.

17        Q.   Thank you.  But yesterday you denied that there were any units in

18     Kramer Selo, but now do you see that there, in fact, were?

19        A.   I'm not sure how many there were because I did not go to

20     Kramer Selo at all.  I didn't stop by there at all so I don't know what

21     was going on.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, this is my last warning to you.  If

23     you like to argue that what is stated -- contained in third party

24     statements to be true, then the Prosecution could introduce tens of

25     thousands of documents.  Just please take into account what Mr. Robinson

Page 18516

 1     had told you.  In the future, we may prohibit you from putting these

 2     third party statements.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am disputing here the relevance

 4     of this witness on all other matters except his incidents.  He doesn't

 5     have any other evidence other than the fact that it was a theatre of war.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you are absolutely entitled to

 7     challenge whatever points the witness has made.  But reading out a third

 8     party's statement is useless.  You can put your question.  And introduce

 9     this third party statement later on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And do we see this?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  And just to clarify the record.  In fairness to the

13     witness, I tried to look quickly to see whether the assertion made by the

14     accused that the witness had specifically denied something, yesterday,

15     was accurate, and as I read the transcript, the witness was asked if he

16     was aware of something and he said no, I wasn't aware of that.  It's

17     quite a difference in terms of the alleged impeachment and indeed the

18     use, the attempted use, of this document.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the interpretation was

20     wrong.  I did not say denied.  I said he didn't know.  But I accept that

21     the witness said he "nije znao" [phoen], did not know.  There is a large

22     statement with this witness.  He doesn't know about a lot of things but

23     only heard about them.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   But you do know about the unfortunate incident that happened.  So

Page 18517

 1     let us all now focus on that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have to move into private

 3     session?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5                           [Private session]

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Page 18518











11  Pages 18518-18523 redacted. Private session.















Page 18524

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14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I wish to thank you for your testimony and to say to you that

18     I asked for more extensive information because your information contains

19     a great deal of what you had heard.  I wish to express my solidarity to

20     you, and I would like to say how pleased I am that you survived through

21     all of that.

22        A.   Thank you, too.  I said that I was under oath here, and I cannot

23     speak about things that I did not see myself.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Tieger?

Page 18525

 1             MR. TIEGER:  No questions in redirect, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Witness.  Thank you, sir.  Your evidence

 3     has now been concluded.  On behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal as a

 4     whole, I would like to express our thanks to you for your coming to

 5     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.  But please remain seated

 6     for a while.

 7             Shall we go back to -- go into private session briefly.

 8                           [Private session]

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Page 18526











11  Pages 18526-18531 redacted. Private session.















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25                           [Open session]

Page 18533

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  If the witness could take the solemn declaration,

 3     please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  I solemnly declare

 5     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  MUNIRA SELMANOVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Madam Selmanovic.  Thank you very

 9     much.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated and make yourself comfortable.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

15        Q.   Good afternoon again, Ms. Selmanovic.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   Can you please state your full name.

18        A.   Munira Selmanovic.

19        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, you provided a statement to the Office of the

20     Prosecutor on the 23rd of January, 2009; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review this statement yesterday

23     when you prepared for your testimony?

24        A.   I have not had an opportunity to review it.  I didn't ask to be

25     given the statement to review it, nor did anyone offer.

Page 18534

 1        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, you said, when we spoke in the room next door,

 2     you said that you have some difficulties hearing what is said through the

 3     headphone.  Is that still --

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.  We did discuss it.

 5        Q.   Can you hear me -- can you hear me?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  I can.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the witness informed me that

 8     she has problems with the headphones and she would not really understand

 9     what is being asked.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you try again.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

12        Q.   Let me just ask you again --

13        A.   It is ringing in my ears.  Perhaps the volume should be put down

14     a bit.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I hope this time it's better, Madam Selmanovic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is better now.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness be asked to come closer to the

18     microphones, please?

19             JUDGE KWON:  If you could kindly come closer to the microphones

20     so that the interpreters can hear you better.  Take it easy, please,

21     Madam.  Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23        Q.   I will ask you again and now I hope you can understand me better.

24     Ms. Selmanovic, your statement of January 2009, in the English language,

25     was it read to you while you prepared for your testimony?

Page 18535

 1        A.   I do remember that you read it to us, that we were discussing how

 2     it should be.  I do remember that it was read out.

 3        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  And can you affirm that the statement

 4     accurately reflects the information that you provided in 2009?

 5        A.   Well, that I cannot tell you.  I thought about it on several

 6     occasions but I never made any notes, nothing of that sort.

 7        Q.   What you told the investigator in 2009, was that the truth?  Was

 8     it correct?

 9        A.   It is the truth.  Yes, it's true.  I do need some prompting to

10     recall these events, but when I do remember them, I do say and describe

11     things as they were, and I did describe the events as they happened in

12     that village of mine.

13        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Selmanovic.  Ms. Selmanovic, would you provide the

14     same information to the Court if you were questioned again on the same

15     matters?

16        A.   Yes.  If something had not been clear to me, I would have said

17     so.  And if I do find something hard to understand, I will say so.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

19     statement, 65 ter 22600, for admission under Rule 92 ter.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

21             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3295, Your Honours.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the Court's permission I would now read

24     a brief summary of the witness's evidence as admitted, as follows:

25             Ms. Selmanovic lived with her family in the village of Novoseoci

Page 18536

 1     in the Sokolac municipality, a village inhabited by about 60 to 70 Muslim

 2     families.  The relations with the neighbouring Serb villages were

 3     peaceful.  After the outbreak of the war, the Muslim villagers were

 4     requested to hand over their weapons, such as hunting rifles, a request

 5     the villagers complied with.  They were also assured that they could

 6     continue to live in Novoseoci without fear.

 7             On the 22nd of September, 1992, Novoseoci was attacked by Serb

 8     soldiers.  The villagers were gathered at a meadow above the village.  In

 9     the process, one female villager was killed.  Soldiers looted the Muslim

10     houses and beat the witness's father who was bed-ridden.

11             Men and older boys were separated from the women, children and

12     the elderly.  While the latter were driven in a bus to the confrontation

13     line from where they had to walk towards Sarajevo, 44 boys and men had to

14     stay behind, including Ms. Selmanovic's husband and her 18-year-old son

15     and other relatives.

16             The body of many of the men and boys who stayed behind were later

17     found and exhumed from a grave site in the Sokolac municipality.  The

18     body of the witness's husband wasn't found until today.

19             Your Honour, that concludes the summary, and I have only a very

20     few questions of you to ask, Ms. Selmanovic.

21        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, in your statement, and I'll refer here to

22     paragraphs 3 and 4, you mentioned that in spring time, villagers handed

23     over weapons and, later on, others came to the village and also inquired

24     about weapons.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  In this context, I would like to call up

Page 18537

 1     Exhibit 65 ter 05384, please.  And as you look on to the screen, here is

 2     a document, a record, of the confiscation of weapons in the village

 3     Novoseoci, of the 2nd Romanija Brigade dated 27 July 1992.

 4        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, do you -- do you remember that as late as July,

 5     weapons were being requested?

 6        A.   I don't remember that.  I only remember that bit about the

 7     27th of July, around the 27th of July, and the 1st of May.  And I only

 8     recall, as far as the 27th of July is concerned, that the villagers were

 9     told that they should not be concerned about their safety, that they

10     should go on about their business, that fuel and whatever else they would

11     need would be delivered to them from Sokolac.  I remember one of the

12     villagers saying, "Well, now we will not feel safe any longer when all

13     our weapons are taken."  But he and the others were told that they should

14     not be concerned about their safety, that everything would be as before.

15     And that's exactly how it happened.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you very much.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

18     document.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Would you be kind -- just a second.  Is there any

20     objection?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none.

23             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3296, Your Honours.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now have Exhibit 65 ter 7064 on the

Page 18538

 1     screen?

 2        Q.   And as it is coming up, Ms. Selmanovic, in your statement, and

 3     here I refer to paragraph 15, you describe how you took your father out

 4     of the house and that you saw soldiers plundering houses when you were

 5     doing this.  And here, we have a document dated 26 September 1992, from a

 6     Commander Krstic, he gives approval to a conscript to transport

 7     furniture, appliances and kitchen equipment from Novoseoci to Sokolac.

 8     And it further says also here, the above-mentioned items will be

 9     transferred until final moving into the house in Novoseoci, which the

10     above-named has chosen for future living.

11             Ms. Selmanovic, what happened to your own furniture?  Do you

12     know?  And all your equipment and your goods.

13        A.   My father was in the house.  The soldiers told me that I should

14     take my father out, that he shouldn't be in the house, and as we were

15     going out, as I supported him on our way out together with a neighbour,

16     they were already coming into the house and taking things out.  And

17     that's true.  Things were taken out of the house.  That's it.  I lifted

18     my father, helped him out.  I left him by the road and returned up to the

19     area where all our villagers were assembled, and I did not return to the

20     house again.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this

22     document.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether this is a proper document to be

24     introduced through this witness.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the witness has described how

Page 18539

 1     the village was looted, and this document confirms what the witness is

 2     saying.  The event in Novoseoci took place on the 27th of September, and

 3     here we have a certificate or, rather, an approval by Commander Krstic

 4     allowing someone, a soldier, to remove --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Removal of looted items.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, from Novoseoci to Sokolac.  Therefore I

 7     think --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Does this document talk about the looted items?

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It says:  "Approval to transport furniture,

10     appliances," and so on and so forth, "from Novoseoci to Sokolac."  And

11     according to the witness's evidence, Novoseoci is a Muslim village and

12     there is no -- it can only be from the Muslim houses.  This is why

13     I simply think that this document confirms the witness's evidence.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I'll give you the floor -- before I give you the

15     floor, Ms. Selmanovic, can you read the document?  Can you tell us what

16     it is about?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read it, no.  I can't see

18     it properly.  But tell me what it is about.  I cannot read it.  I am not

19     able to.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, it is quite unclear

22     here how this would be transported from Novoseoci to Sokolac, when it is

23     stated in the document that the person would be living in Novoseoci.

24     Second of all, it is not signed by Krstic.  It is stated here that it was

25     signed on his behalf.  We don't know who the person who signed was and

Page 18540

 1     whether it was -- the person had the authority to sign it.  The

 2     translation of the document does not clearly state, as the original does,

 3     that it was signed on his behalf, for him.  And not by him.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, would you like to add --

 5             MR. TIEGER:  If I could add something, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  It actually is relevant because it occurred

 8     yesterday when Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was not in the courtroom, and it was in

 9     connection with the guidelines for admission of such documents.  And that

10     involved the question of context and authenticity.  And in relation to

11     that discussion, it should be clear, and I believe the Court will

12     remember from yesterday, that the testimony of this witness and in this

13     document --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember this specific

15     thing and Krstic and who carried it.  I only saw them carry the items out

16     of my house and I remember going back to the point where we were all

17     assembled.  I said that there was this person who ordered that we should

18     leave, but I don't know who came when we left and looted the area.  I

19     know that I took my father out and I waited by, that's all.  It was

20     looting, but there were several soldiers there taking things out of the

21     homes, flour and pieces of furniture, and I'm talking about my house.

22     I couldn't see what was going on in the other homes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Madam Selmanovic.

24             MR. TIEGER:  As it happens the witness's comments amply buttress

25     the point I wanted to make, which was we talked about two factors, in

Page 18541

 1     that case it was context, I think it's very clear that this document is

 2     amply contextualised by the evidence of this witness.  And once context

 3     has been fulfilled, it is as here, the remaining, as question we

 4     discussed yesterday, was whether there was any question about the

 5     authenticity of the document.  This is classically the kind of document

 6     that has been admitted.  The factors identified by Dr. Karadzic may go to

 7     weight but not to the authenticity of the document, and this is one which

 8     fulfils both of the requirements that have been developed during the

 9     course of these proceedings for admission.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we have a problem.  The

12     witness's admission -- the admission of the witness that she cannot read,

13     she is not able to read, how would she be able to identify any documents

14     put to her?  Is there a method you could use?

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, we did that also in the

16     proofing already, what we simply did, we read it to her.  We always read

17     each document that I today present to you, and there is one more coming,

18     we basically read it to her.  So we could -- I could, for instance, read

19     what is written here to her -- here into the record so that she doesn't

20     need to read it.

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  Well, I think perhaps you can could that just to

22     ensure that this statement she has made is put in proper context.  Thank

23     you very much indeed.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, thank you.

25        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, I'll read to you now the text of this document

Page 18542

 1     that is in front of you and it says:  "Command of the 2nd Romanija

 2     Motorised Brigade," and then there is a number.  And then:  "Sokolac,

 3     26 September 1992."  And the text of the document says:

 4             "Approval.  This is to certify that conscript Dragomir Bozic,

 5     from the 2nd Romanija Mountain Brigade, has received approval to

 6     transport furniture, appliances, a fridge, a cooking stove, a washing

 7     machine, chairs, two beds, and a freezer from Novoseoci to Sokolac.

 8             "The above-mentioned items will be transferred until final moving

 9     into a house in Novoseoci, which the above-named has chosen for future

10     living."

11             And it says here, "Commander, Colonel Radisav Krstic," and then

12     there is a signature that, as Mr. Karadzic pointed out, is not from

13     Mr. Krstic.

14             That's what the document basically says.

15        A.   This is what I can tell you in response to this.  Everything you

16     mention, including Krstic, I can't tell you who took the things away.  I

17     can only tell you that they gathered all the villagers, myself included,

18     in a meadow and I was ordered to go to my house and take my father out.

19     Meanwhile, they were carrying things out of the house.  Was it Krstic?

20     Who was it?  I don't know.  But things including the fridges, and

21     everything else, were being taken out of my house.  And of course I can't

22     tell you if anybody moved into the house later on or not.

23             They boarded us on a bus with children, but our men were left

24     behind.  From then on, I don't know.  I don't know who took it, was it

25     Krstic, somebody else.  At any rate, everything, at least as far as my

Page 18543

 1     house is concerned, what I saw was taken out of it.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I had help my learned friend?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  If the interpreter could be kind

 4     enough to read what is written in the stamp.  I can read the first one,

 5     "Vojna."

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Military post.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And the middle, it says "Sokolac"?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  That's right, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you know that Mr. Krstic was

10     located in Sokolac at the time?

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would assume it from the document, but

12     I would have to look at a lot of other documents to confirm this now

13     100 per cent, but it looks like it.  At least was in the region as a

14     commander.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Romanija Motorised Brigade was located in Sokolac.

16     That was the question.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps I may have been of

21     assistance.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you can speak when you're given the

25     floor.  This time the Chamber does not need your assistance.

Page 18544

 1             Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, the Chamber is not satisfied that this

 2     document as such is contextually related to the looting that the witness

 3     is referring to.  So the witness's testimony is in the transcript and you

 4     will have another opportunity to introduce this document into evidence.

 5     Or maybe by bar table motion, but we will see.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  So we will not admit this document through this

 8     witness.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Then I have one

10     more document to discuss with the witness.  Can we please have

11     65 ter 22869 on the screen?

12        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, in your statement, and I refer here to

13     paragraph 22, you refer to the exhumation from a grave site in

14     Ivan Polje.  Do you recall when this exhumation took place?

15        A.   I think it was in 2000, around September or October.  I don't

16     know the exact date but it was in 2000.

17        Q.   And did you attend it?  Did you watch what was going on?

18        A.   Yes.  We were called to attend over three days.  That's how long

19     it took.  It's a valley, Ivan Polje.  In the area left of the valley, we

20     knew that a mosque had been situated there so we thought that that's

21     where it would be.  They were working in the area for three days but it

22     was only on the fourth that they recovered bodies, including the bones of

23     my son.

24             It was a pit, and there they called us villagers to go and see

25     what they found because there was some clothing there.  There were three

Page 18545

 1     bodies in this pit and I immediately recognised my child because I saw

 2     the sweater and his necklace.  And then they moved these little bones

 3     belonging to our children, asking us this and that, is it him, and I said

 4     of course.

 5             First they showed us the bodies up front, and then from the back.

 6     There I was able to see bullets coming out of the remains.  I saw my son

 7     in a sweater and his hand lying peacefully, and then I realised it was

 8     him.  And I survived that ordeal as well, but it was my child.

 9     I recognised him.  That's exactly how it happened.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, what you see in front of you is

11     the exhumation report related to the exhumation of this particular grave

12     that the witness just mentioned.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15        Q.   Do you recall that you, basically, with the help of an

16     interpreter, went through the names in that document, the names of the

17     people exhumed?  Do you recall that, that you did that yesterday?  Or the

18     day before yesterday?

19        A.   I do remember.  All the names are there.  All the people there

20     are found.  Later everybody recognised their own.  When we were called to

21     go to identify them, I did not identify my husband, and my relative among

22     those 40 or so.  Their bodies were not there.  I looked at the names of

23     the sons, the fathers and so on.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't think Defence will

25     object to it.

Page 18546

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, I will tender it.  And this concludes

 2     the examination-in-chief.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We will give the number to the exhumation report.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit P3297, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Are there any associated exhibits?

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, no associated exhibits.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  Madam Selmanovic,

 8     you'll be further asked by the accused, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, in his

 9     cross-examination.  Mr. Karadzic.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry.  Before we proceed, I would just rise to

13     a brief scheduling issue at the request of the pro se office.  They had

14     anticipated commencing the interviews we spoke about earlier at 2.00.

15     There is a one-hour transportation period.  They understand expressly

16     that they are -- that the Court's schedule will dictate the timing of the

17     videolinks, but they did want to know definitively whether the Court was

18     going to adjourn now and postpone the cross or to continue and conclude

19     the witness and then pro se should move the videolinks back.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Before making any decision, how long do you think

21     you will take, Mr. Karadzic?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I'm waiting for the

23     interpretation.  It's taking a long time.  Your Excellencies, I will do

24     my best to finish within an hour but I'm afraid that it would be

25     difficult in view of the circumstances.

Page 18547

 1             It will be difficult to get the answers.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So your estimate is you can finish -- you cannot

 3     finish in an hour's time?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid not.  I will do my best.

 5     I will try my best but I'm not sure that I will succeed.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  There is no point of postponing this witness's

 8     cross-examination to next week and we will proceed.  The point of my

 9     question was whether you need all of that one hour.  I was of the opinion

10     that you could finish much quicker.  Let's start.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will see.  Thank you.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Ms. Selmanovic, good afternoon.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   First of all, I would like to express my sympathy and solidarity

16     because of your loss, and now I would like to ask you to help me shed

17     some light on some things.  I'm going to start from this last thing that

18     you said, and that is that at the place where the location -- the

19     exhumation took place, it was a cemetery and there was a mosque there

20     before?

21        A.   No, it wasn't a cemetery.  It was a valley, which is where they

22     threw our people who were captured by Pajic.  Let me tell you that.  They

23     took them for a work drive and then they just left them there.  I blame

24     Pajic alone for what he did and for what was done.  That Pajic took our

25     children and our fathers and our husbands, ranging in age from 15 to 80.

Page 18548

 1     And then he left them all on the work drive and then he took them to this

 2     Ivan Polje valley.  I don't know if they are there or not, in that

 3     valley, are there -- later that the rubble from the cemetery was thrown

 4     on top of them, and then it took three days for them to go through all of

 5     that rubble to be able to find the bodies.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your question?  Start again,

 8     please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I said you mentioned the mosque today for the first time, and

11     that's why I asked.  And I kindly ask you, wherever possible, to answer

12     with a "yes" or a "no" so that we could finish as soon as possible.  You

13     said today that you recognised him by his necklace.

14        A.   I recognised him by his necklace, by his clothes, by his

15     footwear, by his bones.  I recognise my own child and everybody else

16     recognised their own child.  I went there.  I was called to go to

17     Ivan Polje three times.  I went all around, the first day, the second

18     day, the third day, I went around.

19             There was this commission from Sokolac.  They were saying they

20     are not there, they are not there, they are not there.  Then the earth

21     diggers began to find things.  Then when we found that, they cleaned it.

22     Then they called us, they brought us there.  They lined up the bodies in

23     these bags or something.  I don't know.  They put them on something, bags

24     or something, and then as people were approaching, I immediately

25     recognised my own child by his clothing.  But they said, Please don't

Page 18549

 1     touch anything with your hands.  We didn't touch anything.  They took him

 2     and they turned him over, and then I could see that it was my child.

 3             I don't know what was done, I don't know if it was done because

 4     of Pajic, by his will or whoever, but I don't know.

 5        Q.   You say that there were clothes and footwear, that there was

 6     clothing and shoes and that it wasn't destroyed or didn't -- wasn't

 7     disintegrating?

 8        A.   No.  It wasn't disintegrating.  There was a woollen sweater.  It

 9     was whole.  And you could see in the front where the bullet had gone

10     through, but when they turned the body on the back, you could see

11     nothing.  And he had shoes on his feet and you could see the bones inside

12     these shoes.  There was a belt.  There was a jacket with some threads on

13     it, and the sweater was complete and whole.

14        Q.   And was there a different stage of decomposition of the bodies?

15     Were the bodies in different stages of decomposition?

16        A.   Well, everybody recognised their own.  There was nothing

17     different about the bodies.  Each recognised their own.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And you said that a number of bullets fell, a number

19     of shells fell off the body.

20        A.   Yes, from the body of my child, seven shell casings dropped out.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like us to go back to the beginning.  In

22     the spring of 1992, you asked the Serbian authorities in Sokolac to allow

23     you to evacuate the village and they talked you out of it, or rather,

24     they persuaded you to stay; is that right?

25        A.   Well, it was requested, and they were coming from Sokolac and

Page 18550

 1     they were encouraging people, Look, you know, there is no need for you to

 2     go.  You're not under any danger.  We will come and we will inform you.

 3             And until the 1st of May, people were working in their companies.

 4     Later there were holidays.  Later they came, took away the weapons, this

 5     was on the 27th.  And then one man said, You know, when you took these

 6     things, then for us it's no longer safe to live here.  He said, It's

 7     safe.  There is no need.  Why aren't you working?  They said, Well, we

 8     don't have any fuel, we don't have anything, we cannot operate the

 9     machinery.  Then they said, Well, you can go to Sokolac now, you can buy

10     the fuel, you can continue to work.  There will be no problem.

11             This is what they told the men.  They didn't tell the women that.

12     They told the men and the men told us.  And that's how it was.

13        Q.   Thank you.  This is 65 ter 22604 on page 1, it's in a statement

14     given by Ms. Selmanovic earlier, that they were going to request the

15     evacuation of the village and that they were talked out of it.  Did you

16     say that Drago Macar also came and that others would come and tell you

17     that you should stay; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.  That is correct.  Drago Macar came first and he said, There

19     is no need, you should stay.  And then later Velimir Elez and

20     Savic Milorad came, they said, There is no need, people, just go and get

21     the fuel, and they went immediately with their cars.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And then the weapons were handed over and this

23     happened on three occasions, right?

24        A.   I don't know about the third time.  I know about the two

25     occasions.  This was on the 27th and then on the 1st of May.  I'm not

Page 18551

 1     sure about the dates, to be able to say it was on such and such a date.

 2     This was in the spring in May, and this was around the 27th, it could

 3     have been a day or two before.  People continued to harvest, cut the

 4     crops.

 5        Q.   And then in your statement 22604, for other participants, it says

 6     on the 6th of July, 1992, again weapons were handed over, some weapons.

 7     Why didn't they hand in all the weapons in one go?

 8        A.   Because they didn't have any.  What are they going to hand over?

 9     Whoever had something, they handed it over.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 5385?

12     I'm convinced there is a translation.  I've seen it.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, it is actually an exhibit

14     that I first also considered to use and we have a translation to it.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure this has been admitted.  Probably under

16     different 65 ter number.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The 65 ter number that Mr. Karadzic

18     mentioned is correct.  I have it here with me as well, and I have a

19     translation.

20             Mr. Reid is uploading it right now.  It was not uploaded.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, while we are waiting for the English translation

23     I'm going to read to you a sentence which refers to Novoseoci.  This is

24     the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the date is the 27th of July

25     and it's informing the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, and it

Page 18552

 1     states:  "In the village of Novoseoci, south of Sokolac" --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we have a reference, please?

 3             MR. KARADZIC:  [No interpretation]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You're reading from this document.

 5     The interpreter is asking for a reference.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  It's the last third of the first

 7     paragraph, "In the village of Novoseoci."  This is how it begins.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I'm going to repeat:

10             "In the village of Novoseoci, south of Sokolac, some five to

11     six kilometres, Glasinacko Polje, weapons were handed over, as well as

12     lethal equipment, by the Muslim population to representatives of the

13     2nd Romanija Brigade.  The hand-over was carried out per agreement but it

14     is believed that all of the weapons were not handed over."

15             This is the second or the third time but you think that it was

16     the second time, right?

17        A.   I think that on the 27th this Pajic came and that Velimir Elez

18     came and that this is what was said, and that he asked and people gave

19     what they had.  And what you're talking about, killings and all of this,

20     probably had they had them they would have given them, probably people

21     didn't have them, and then they were promised that they should stay, and

22     they offered some kind of assurance, and they stayed.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit this and can we now

25     again have 22604, please?

Page 18553

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I know that it is a very

 3     similar case to the previous one but the Prosecution would not have an

 4     objection to it because it does fit into the -- what the witness has

 5     said.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  In light of the submission of Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff,

 7     that will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1667, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But I'm wondering, speaking for myself, whether

10     there is any point of going through the documents with this witness,

11     Mr. Karadzic, given the short -- given the time.

12             Proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I'm going to just limit myself

14     to the statements by the witness and she will remember that.  Can we have

15     this 65 ter 22604, please?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I would now like to read you the second sentence of the

18     statement:

19             "Sometime in early June, our villages, Mustafa Selmanovic,

20     Hilmija Karic and Lutvo Ocuz went to see Romanija -- Djokic Slavko on

21     Mount Romanija regarding the potential evacuation of our village because

22     even though there was no threat, we were becoming concerned that our

23     village would be attacked by some Arkan's or Seselj's men from Serbia"

24     and so on and so forth.

25             Is this right?

Page 18554

 1        A.   No, that's not right.  I am not aware of that.  Nobody was going

 2     anywhere.  People were working until the 1st of May.  On the 1st of May

 3     we were given holidays.  They said we would summon you back to work.

 4     Nobody went anywhere.  And as I told you, these people were stopping by,

 5     Macar, Savic, Velimir, all of those people came as well as Rade Dubovina,

 6     who used to come by practically every day, and he would be talking to

 7     people, People, there is no need, it's like this, like that.  I've told

 8     you everything.  And as for Mustafa, that is not true.

 9        Q.   All right.  But you mentioned Pero Dubovina and Rade Dubovina in

10     that paragraph.  You say that they came and that they were convincing you

11     that you could stay?

12        A.   I mentioned Rade Dubovina, the son of Ljubo Dubovina, he came to

13     the village until that time when they were taken prisoner.

14        Q.   And in the next paragraph, you mentioned that they came to

15     Bogovici on the 6th or 7th, Milorad Savic and others, and that they just

16     wanted weapons to be handed over and to have money changed for Serbian

17     money.

18        A.   I did not mention Bogovici at all.  I didn't mention any of that

19     to you.  As for these bank notes, I mean through these people who talked

20     to their people, they said, Go and change that money, these bank notes.

21     As for Bogovici, no, no.  These people who came, like Rade Dubovina

22     and -- they said, Go and change it, don't spend this.  They spent that

23     money of theirs and then they come to our village, what do you need?  And

24     that was that.

25             They were doing something that was supposed to be some kind of

Page 18555

 1     favour?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Before putting question in relation to a document,

 3     in particular it is a statement of the witness, I would like you to

 4     explain to the witness the nature of the document, what you're going --

 5     which you are going to put to her.  But I --

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  After this question.  On the second page, the

 8     witness's signature is missing.  So you have to put everything to the

 9     witness and proceed.  Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff?

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And perhaps also a caution to be very

11     careful with mentioning the names.  Basically saying it very clearly

12     because I got always the impression that the witness didn't get the name

13     Jolovic, proper.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Ms. Selmanovic, this is a statement that you gave on the 11th of

17     January, 1993.  Did you give a statement to some Jusuf Begic in Sarajevo?

18        A.   I told you I do not remember.  I didn't write down any dates or

19     who I gave statements to.  I was giving statements but my soul was in

20     pain.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that near your village, there were some

22     armed Muslim villages that were fighting, shooting and had units of their

23     own, do you know about that?

24        A.   I don't know about any of that either because we weren't moving

25     anywhere.  We were in our own village.  These people came and said what

Page 18556

 1     they said, and I don't know about any of what you said now or these

 2     surrounding villages and whatever.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  What you said a moment ago, that people were doing

 4     things that were supposed to be a favour to these villages, was it these,

 5     the Serb authorities from Sokolac?

 6        A.   All of them are from Sokolac.  First Savic, then Milorad Savic,

 7     and this other person said all right, come with us, buy fuel, work with

 8     machines, buy what you need, all of that is correct.  Then they would

 9     come to some village, bring whatever was needed, people would take that.

10     There you go, that's how it was.  These were these favours done by the

11     people of Sokolac.

12        Q.   All right.  But there was shooting nevertheless.  In this same

13     statement on page 2, you said that on the 27th of July there were some

14     strong gunfire from all weapons there and then you were asked to hand

15     over weapons.  Is that the way it was?

16        A.   That is not the way it was.  That is not the way it was.  These

17     people came to tell people that it was good for them to stay.  We women

18     did not even walk up there.  It was the men who were talking.  Nobody was

19     attacking the village.

20        Q.   There weren't any attacks against the village?

21        A.   There were no attacks against the village.

22        Q.   Thank you.  When they came on the 22nd of September also there

23     were no attacks, you just happened to notice them?

24        A.   It's not that it just happened that way.  It was the 22nd, at day

25     break, we were supposed to do something.  As people started getting up,

Page 18557

 1     they made them go out to the meadow.  As we walked out of the houses,

 2     soldiers were standing in front of the houses and they just sent us to

 3     the meadow.  First my child was taken prisoner and then my husband went

 4     out to see where the child was, and then I also followed him and then my

 5     brother-in-law and then my sister-in-law, there were about six of us

 6     there, and there were soldiers all around us.  And then there were six of

 7     us there and my children were not there.

 8             I mean that first child of mine went, I asked where is this

 9     child?  At Mican Jolovic's.  Why at Mican Jolovic's?  That is on the

10     other side.  I mean, these are two villages facing each other.  And he

11     said don't worry, now your child is going to be up there at that meadow,

12     you're all going to be at that meadow.  And that's the way it was.

13             And then these soldiers took us to this meadow and then all of us

14     villagers were there, on that meadow, and once all the villagers were

15     there, on that meadow, this man took out this paper and this Pajic

16     Momcilo was reading out all these names and saying are all the villagers

17     there and then they said all but one.  And I'm sorry, our children were

18     threatened.  And they said all the villagers have to be there, and if

19     they don't come there, then they -- then you're going to be killed.

20             The children were afraid and then we all went out for the sake of

21     our children.  And then this woman was not there and then was killed

22     along the way.  And then we were there, and then now Momcilo Pajic read

23     this out, You know what, there are weapons and your village's houses are

24     going to be searched.  And the villagers said, No, no, which is exactly

25     the way it was.  We had handed over what was there.  And we said no.

Page 18558

 1             And then I'm telling you, you know what, they said now we will

 2     wait, and he has that hand-held radio and he's calling Kopito [phoen].

 3     And then he says, All right, I'm going to Sokolac, now I know we are

 4     going to see what your fate is going to be.  And then Pajic Momcilo

 5     returned from Sokolac and said to us, You know what, children, women,

 6     those who cannot move, there is going to be a bus that's going to come

 7     and you're going to go by the mosque, and all of those who are capable of

 8     working are going to stay here for a work drive.

 9             Then we were in panic for our children and then the house and

10     whatever, and then they were sending us away with these rifles.

11        Q.   Madam, may I just ask you something?  Why did the children go and

12     get the horses?

13        A.   They went because of their own needs.  They wanted to work.  We

14     wanted to work.  Before that, they were taking firewood to a man, Hazim,

15     and this nephew of mine, and then they wanted to take some firewood to

16     that man too, and that's the way it was.

17        Q.   To take firewood and to be paid for that, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Yes.  Because in the statement that somebody seemed to have

20     worded, it seems that it was different, but actually they were doing this

21     for money.

22        A.   Well, yes, everything was nice and peaceful.  I cannot remember

23     the name of this person now.

24        Q.   Thank you.  This late Devla?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18559

 1        Q.   The wife of this man who was missing?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   She quarrelled with some woman as to who would go and get her

 4     husband and she set out, right?

 5        A.   Yes, first they sent the daughter-in-law and the daughter-in-law

 6     said that she could not leave her children and then she said all right

 7     I'm going to get my husband.  And she went to get her husband.  Then she

 8     was killed below the mosque, and unfortunately, she also had her throat

 9     slit and --

10        Q.   Did you see that, Madam, or did you see it yourself?

11        A.   We saw that when they brought her opposite the mosque.  We saw

12     her lying in blood.

13        Q.   But you said, Madam, that she walked a bit faster, that she

14     hurried a bit and that's when she was killed?

15        A.   Well, she hurried a bit.  She just wanted to cross over

16     something.  I mean there was this fence, and then you had to step over

17     it.  So that's all.  It's not that she was running.  I mean, if you're

18     sent somewhere to do something, you'd run too.  I mean you would hurry

19     too.

20        Q.   That's very important for us, Madam.  If she was running, then

21     somebody from afar interpreted that as meaning that she was trying to

22     flee.  You said that in your statement, that she hurried a bit and that

23     that's when she was killed?

24        A.   Well, maybe, maybe she did hurry a bit.  I'm telling you right

25     now the woman wanted to cross this fence there near the mosque and that's

Page 18560

 1     where she was killed.  You know, when you jump over something, that's

 2     when she was killed.  I mean, how can I know how she was moving there?

 3        Q.   However, you said that you did not see that moment.  You saw her

 4     body afterwards but you did not see that moment.

 5        A.   While we were all gathered up there, Nail hadn't even come there,

 6     her husband, there was only this one thing that was heard and then all

 7     the soldiers jumped up and pointed their rifles at us.  Since Nail came,

 8     he said, Unfortunately, my Devla has been killed.  That's it.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   Well, and then when they took us to the buses, then this body was

11     brought to our old cemetery and then it was placed on the blanket.  And

12     her daughter-in-law walked up and saw her lying in blood and said that

13     she had had her throat slit.  There you go.  What else can I say to you?

14        Q.   You did not see it.  She said that to you?

15        A.   She said that but then we also saw it.  We saw it.  We saw her

16     lying in blood and that that was that.

17        Q.   In this statement, 22603, it says that Veljko Papic asked to have

18     firewood brought to him but we have clarified the matter.  That was paid

19     for.

20        A.   Yes.  That's correct.  And my child wanted to go that morning

21     too.  I mean, we need to make money, don't we?  And it's free for us to

22     move.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Before this happened, your daughter and son-in-law

24     freely went to Sarajevo through Serb territory, right?

25        A.   They went, I think in April, March, April, through Serb

Page 18561

 1     territory, yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know where Banja Lucica, Kaljina and these

 3     other villages are?

 4        A.   I know where Kaljina is, but Banja Lucica, no, never.  I never

 5     went there but I went to Kaljina when I was a child.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  But you know that Banja Lucica is also in your

 7     municipality, right?

 8        A.   Well, I don't know if it is or if it isn't.  I mean, I don't

 9     really understand if Kaljina is in our municipality.

10        Q.   All right.  Tell us, then, they took you on buses to an area

11     close to the front line and then you crossed over to Sarajevo.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Then in 1993, you gave a statement and you mentioned all the

14     things that stayed behind in Sokolac, things of yours, and you asked for

15     compensation, you asked for damages.  Is that right?

16        A.   Maybe, maybe I did ask for that.  I mean, I'm asking even now to

17     be compensated and to get damages.  Everything was destroyed, land,

18     houses.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You said then that there was a refrigerator in your

20     house and furniture.

21        A.   And my soul, first of all.

22        Q.   You said then that you had your furniture in your house and other

23     things.  You did not mention that they had been taken away?

24        A.   What do you mean I didn't mention it?  I said that as I came to

25     get my father, everything was being taken out, the refrigerators, and the

Page 18562

 1     couches, all of that was being carried out.  I mean what more can I say?

 2     I mean what do you mean did I say, did I not say?  Of course, I said it.

 3     I wanted to get my father out of the house and then I saw that everything

 4     was buried and everything was being moved.

 5        Q.   All right.  Then you did not know that your family members had

 6     been killed.  Do you know when these two were killed, the two that you

 7     know of?  When did that happen and in what situation?

 8        A.   I don't know in what situation, immediately or whatever.  But we

 9     women, children, we were walking around, we went to Sokolac and we

10     started going say in 1997 or 1998.  Wherever we asked people, everyone

11     said to us, It was the army that took them away.  And we say, Which army?

12     We just know who stopped our people and who made us board buses.  I mean

13     what kind of soldiers, I don't know that.  In which direction?  And they

14     say, well, maybe it's this Ledena Pecina or Novakova Pecina.  Do you know

15     where Novakova Pecina is?  All right.  And then I thought perhaps

16     sometimes we went there for picnics.

17             So that's the way it was until we found that particle of the

18     mosque, because all of us women were in front of the mosque and we were

19     afraid and we were thinking about this and it couldn't have been anything

20     else.  That was that.  We were looking and no one wanted to tell us where

21     they were, as we were asking for our own.  We even asked villagers and

22     they said, Why are you asking us?  They are down there, underneath that

23     board.  And the old cemetery of ours was totally dug up and the stones

24     were taken away and they built barracks there.  And they said, Well,

25     that's where your old cemetery is now.  And we said, Well, yeah, but

Page 18563

 1     where are the villagers now, but --

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  But you don't know, you never found out

 3     when they were killed and under what circumstances?

 4        A.   We never found out under what circumstances or was it the same

 5     day or was it the next day.  That is the only thing that the person who

 6     left them there can tell me.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  I'm speaking I know for myself, but I am

 8     wondering what is the point of this line of cross-examination of this

 9     witness.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was the last question,

11     Excellency.  I just wanted to see whether she had any knowledge as to

12     what had happened with the men.  The women and children were evacuated.

13     I just wanted to know what happened to the men, whether she knew about

14     that because until this indictment I had never heard of that village.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Selmanovic.  I have no further questions for you.

17     Rest assured, Ms. Selmanovic, that all my friends and all of those who

18     respect me and all of those who are my followers are never going to harm

19     a single witness or any witness's family.  That has never happened until

20     now and this is a public recommendation to respect all witnesses,

21     especially those who are victims.

22        A.   And I say here publicly as well, let this person who gathered us

23     all together, who separated our children and our husbands and men and let

24     him just say whether he did it of his own free will or did he do it for

25     the love of you or whoever.

Page 18564

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Selmanovic.

 2             Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have any re-examination?

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Selmanovic, that concludes your evidence.  On

 5     behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank

 6     you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please have a safe journey back home.  But you can

 9     wait.  Unless there is any other matters to raise, we will rise for the

10     week.  And we will resume next week on Tuesday.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we have a sitting day tomorrow.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I was mistaken.  Yes, tomorrow at 9.00.

13     Wishful thinking.

14             THE ACCUSED:  I think you should be corrected.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will rise until tomorrow at 9.00.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of

18                           September 2011, at 9.00 a.m.