Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18937

 1                           Friday, 16 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Now it's Friday.  Yes,

 7     Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.

 8                           WITNESS:  KDZ-239 [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies and

12     everyone.

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Is it correct that Foca was one of the biggest municipalities

16     even in former Yugoslavia?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I really have to remind both myself and you to make pauses, not

19     to make the work of the interpreters more difficult.  Is it correct that

20     the population there, Serb and Muslim, was rather balanced numerically

21     throughout the municipality, whereas in the town of Foca itself, the

22     Serbs were more numerous, 50 per cent?

23        A.   According to the census of 1991, there were about 21,500 Muslims,

24     which is 52 per cent, Serbs accounted for about 19,500 which

25     percentage-wise is about 45 per cent.  3 per cent were Montenegrins and

Page 18938

 1     others.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in town, there were 5,500 Muslims

 3     but 7,900 Serbs?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of those figures.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were part of these party structures, as it

 6     were, to what extent did you know what was going on in the negotiations?

 7        A.   Which negotiations do you have in mind?

 8        Q.   Do you remember that negotiations on the fate of Yugoslavia and

 9     Bosnia and the fate of Bosnia in or out of Yugoslavia went on throughout

10     1991 and before the war in 1992, and then during the war as well, there

11     was always a conference going on?

12        A.   Yes, indeed.  Negotiations did take place before the war, too,

13     and they ended on the eve of the war, or, rather, before the referendum.

14        Q.   The referendum was held on 28 February and 1 March, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The final agreement on the transformation of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17     into three constituent units, as a prerequisite for our acceptance of

18     independence, was achieved on 18 March, right?

19        A.   Can you put that question again and make it somewhat clearer?

20        Q.   This is how I'm going to deal with it.  This was the chronology

21     of these agreements.  On 13 February, the first agreement was reached on

22     the existence of three Bosnias.  These negotiations ended on 13 March.

23     Or the 18th of March, after the referendum.  All three parties accepted

24     everything that had been agreed upon except for what the armies would be

25     like, whether it's going to be three National Guards or whether it's

Page 18939

 1     going to be a unified army.  That is to say, that was the only question

 2     that remained unresolved.  Everything else had been resolved?

 3        A.   No, that is not correct.

 4        Q.   All right.  We have the Lisbon agreement here.  We are going to

 5     get to that easily.  I'm just interested in knowing how much you knew.

 6        A.   I've already answered that.  I said that such agreements had not

 7     been reached.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On the basis of agreements at republican level,

 9     between myself and Mr. Izetbegovic, both on the division of power and

10     everything else, weren't there negotiations underway at municipal level?

11        A.   Yes, after the multi-party elections.

12        Q.   Do you remember that what was also discussed was the

13     establishment of two municipalities in Foca?

14        A.   The Serb Democratic Party insisted explicitly at one point that

15     the municipality should belong to the so-called SAO Krajina which had

16     never been the case.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Herzegovina, which

18     had never been the case before.

19        Q.   That is a different matter altogether.  Don't you agree that this

20     entire area was called old Herzegovina, including my native region?

21     Before the Berlin congress, all of that was old Herzegovina?

22        A.   I really don't know about that.

23        Q.   Didn't Herceg Stjepan Kosaca have his capital in Foca?  Are the

24     remains of the old city not there?

25        A.   Well, not exactly.  It's in Stjepan Polje and that belongs to

Page 18940

 1     Montenegro.

 2        Q.   Line 15 on page 3 says that you said that it should be belong to

 3     the SAO Krajina, but you actually said SAO Krajina?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We already corrected that.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Could you please correct that?  You did not mean the SAO Krajina?

 7        A.   No, no, the SAO Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Do you know that in practically all maps at these conferences, it

 9     had been envisaged that a larger part of Foca should belong to the Muslim

10     constituent unit?

11        A.   No.  I'm not aware of that.

12        Q.   All right.  Yesterday, I asked you whether you had distinguished

13     between the commander of the Crisis Staff and the commander of the

14     Territorial Defence, right?

15        A.   Yes.  That's right.  You did ask me that.

16        Q.   Do you agree that the commander of the Crisis Staff was

17     Mr. Miro Stanic and the commander of the Territorial Defence, the

18     Serb Territorial Defence, was somebody else?

19        A.   No.  At the time, there is no mention of the Territorial Defence

20     in the documents, as it had existed before.  There is only a reference to

21     Miro Stanic and the other members of the Crisis Staff.  We said that he

22     had been appointed on 3 April 1992.

23        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Could I find the documents I need?  Let's

24     show about two documents in order to see what it was like.  1D4237.

25     Could we have that, please?  Did you know Mr. Cedo Zelovic?

Page 18941

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Was he head of the Territorial Defence for the Serb part of the

 3     municipality of Foca?

 4        A.   That I don't know.

 5        Q.   Please, but take a look at this.  See what this order is:  Order

 6     to the unit of the military police.  Up there it says:  "Crisis Staff of

 7     the Serb Municipality of Foca, the staff of the TO of the Serb

 8     Municipality of Foca."

 9             And this is what the order says, that together with the public

10     security station, traffic be controlled, and vehicles without passes

11     should not be allowed to move about, and also persons are not allowed to

12     enter buildings.  And can we scroll up a bit to see that the commander of

13     the Territorial Defence is one person, that the commander of the

14     Crisis Staff is another person?

15        A.   Could we please see the heading again so we see when this

16     document was issued?

17        Q.   There is no date but you do know that Crisis Staffs existed until

18     the end of May, and the Territorial Defence until 20 May because from the

19     20th of May onwards, it was the Army of Republika Srpska that came into

20     being.

21        A.   I could not accept this document in any way as a valid document.

22     This is some kind of one-sided decision.

23        Q.   One-sided?  You mean it only pertains to the Serb municipality?

24        A.   No, no.  It's a decision of the Serb Democratic Party, to

25     conceive of something like this.

Page 18942

 1        Q.   Thank you.  But yesterday you confirmed that to this day there is

 2     a Muslim municipality of Foca-Ustikolina?

 3        A.   Yes, but that was set in the peace agreement, the Dayton

 4     agreement.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Well, the Lisbon agreement had envisaged something

 6     far more favourable, then you get part of town and the Muslim villages.

 7     Had there not been combat you would have been given the greater part of

 8     the municipality of Foca, right?

 9        A.   I really would not like to go into that part of your question.

10        Q.   Can we have the next page, please?  You see, it's the same two

11     men again, one is in the civilian authorities, the other one is the

12     commander of the TO staff, and they are asking for lists of military

13     conscripts to be compiled, to establish absolute control in their own

14     territory and to prohibit any kind of abuse and unsoldierly behaviour, to

15     submit lists of seized weapons and equipment to the staff of the

16     Territorial Defence, on behalf of the Crisis Staff, it was signed by

17     Miroslav Stanic and on behalf of the TO staff, Cedo Zelovic, right?

18        A.   Yes, but this document cannot be accepted as valid.  It doesn't

19     have a date.  It doesn't have a number, and the content could have some

20     kind of importance and meaning but only in a one-sided fashion.

21        Q.   Witness.  If the Crisis Staff was established on 3 April and

22     abolished at the end of May, this could have happened only during those

23     two months.  Not before that, not after that, right?

24        A.   That is only an assumption.  However, to accept this document as

25     valid would be absurd since it doesn't have a date or a registry number.

Page 18943

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can these two documents be

 3     admitted under this number?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you challenge the

 5     authenticity of these documents?

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, I don't, Your Honour, and of course the

 7     witness has pointed out a few things but they go more to the weight than

 8     anything else so we wouldn't have any objections, but of course it can

 9     only be marked for identification.  And in this context, I just want to

10     mention we have quite a number of these documents coming up, and it is

11     really -- it's a burden to us not knowing what it is and only learn it

12     here in court.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You should put in a really vigilant effort not to

14     present untranslated documents.  There may come a time that the Chamber

15     may prohibit you from using untranslated documents.  Bear that in mind,

16     Mr. Karadzic.  We will mark it for identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1684, Your Honours.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I really owe you

19     gratitude but, please, do understand the fact that we are so burdened, we

20     have so many documents, some we send at the very last moment for

21     translation because we really have no choice.  Could we now have 1D4238.

22        Q.   Colo, Izet, Redzo Pekac; are these people you knew, witness?

23     They were represents of the Muslims from the village of Trosanj?

24        A.   Not really, but the first and last names do ring a bell.  It's

25     not that I knew them personally, no.

Page 18944

 1        Q.   Do you remember that the Council for National Defence of the

 2     municipality that is the Supreme Commander of Defence of the municipality

 3     made a -- reached a decision on 8 April that a state of emergency be

 4     imposed in Foca and that citizens are asked not to move about from 8 p.m.

 5     until 6 a.m.  So there is a signature of Stanic on one side and the other

 6     signature is probably that of a Muslim?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of this document, and it could not be valid because

 8     there is no letterhead, there is no date, and there is no number under

 9     which it was registered.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Obviously this is some kind of a press release.

11     Could we have the next page?  Can you see, Mr. Witness, that on 24 April,

12     an agreement was reached between representatives of the Muslims of the

13     village of Trosanj, and representatives of the civilian authorities of

14     the Serbian Municipality of Foca and military authorities?  Were you

15     aware of this, namely that agreements on the surrender of weapons in

16     illegal possession were reached with certain Muslim villages, with a view

17     to ensuring the safety of citizens?  Have a look at the document and let

18     us know if you were aware of this.

19             Can we scroll down?  You don't have difficulties reading the

20     Cyrillic script, do you?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And item 5, all the Muslims from the village of Trosanj are

23     guaranteed safety for their lives and property, and it is also stated

24     that under 6, mixed commissions would be set up on the surrender of

25     weapons which is to take place on 24 October -- of April, and that

Page 18945

 1     Muslims from other villages should not be allowed to enter the area and

 2     we have the signatures.

 3        A.   What was your question?

 4        Q.   Were you aware of the fact that on 24 April, the Serbian

 5     authorities from the Serbian part of Foca toured various villages to

 6     reach agreements such as this one?

 7        A.   No, I was not aware of it, and I have serious doubts about it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted, please?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, in this case, I agree that we

12     could mark it for identification, but before taking a final stance on

13     this particular document, I would like -- prefer to be able to read it

14     first.  The witness has not accepted anything in it, and, yeah, if it is

15     authentic and if it is, when we can read it, fully related to the

16     witness's evidence, then I would agree but I can't really at the moment

17     see that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  It's difficult to follow how this relates to the

19     witness's evidence.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we will not admit this.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll look for another

23     opportunity to have it admitted and by then we will have a translation.

24     As for your question how it can be related to, well on 24 April the Serbs

25     had that part of Foca under control and yet embarked on this exercise of

Page 18946

 1     reaching various agreements.  And it is very important.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  You put that question to the witness.  Let's move

 3     on.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I did put it, but the witness was

 5     not aware of the existence of such agreements, which is also important

 6     for the Defence.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of it, or, rather, I am

 8     aware of the fact that such agreements did not exist.  I'm aware of the

 9     fact that negotiations were not conducted with the various villages and

10     the villages were not armed.  It was a formulation of the events by the

11     SDS.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  You said that a number of people were taken prisoner,

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.  We did mention a figure yesterday.  It was between 600 and

16     650, in the correctional and penal facility.  However, in addition to the

17     KP Dom, there were at least 14 locations in the municipality of Foca

18     which were designated either as camps or detention facilities.  Let me

19     mention but a few.  If we first take Hotel Bukovica, there were civilians

20     held there.  If we go along the Drina downstream of the Drina, there was

21     a Buk Bijela hydroelectric plant facility where civilians were also held.

22     Admittedly most of them were women and children because the men had been

23     taken to the KP Dom Foca.  The next facility as we head toward the town

24     is Brod facility, where civilians were also held.  In the centre proper,

25     we have the so-called Partizan conference hall where a number of women

Page 18947

 1     and children were held and where some of the most serious crimes were

 2     committed, women were raped there.

 3        Q.   We will be proving matters.  You are merely saying things now, as

 4     you say that I am saying.  Were you aware that on 1 March the Muslim

 5     armed formations took control of the town?

 6        A.   I beg your pardon.  You interrupted me.  Let me finish off what

 7     I was saying earlier on.

 8        Q.   But that was not in answer to my question.  My question had dealt

 9     with something else.  You said what you wanted to say to the Prosecution,

10     and I am here in charge of my examination.  Do you agree that initially

11     it was the Muslim forces that had taken control of the town?

12        A.   No, no.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, could you put a pause before you start

14     answering?  The interpreters have difficulty if you overlap.  Thank you

15     very much.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D4239, please?

18        Q.   Can you see here that on 8 April, an agreement was signed - we

19     can't tell who it was on the Muslim side; on the Serb side it was

20     Stanic - that the post office, pharmacy, the local radio station should

21     be liberated forthwith, that all the units should be sent back home, that

22     front lines should be abolished, that all the barricades should be

23     removed, that joint observer groups and police forces should be set up on

24     the principle of parity, that safety is to be guaranteed of all the --

25     all the vital institutions, that the safety of the KP Dom should be

Page 18948

 1     guaranteed and barricades removed?  Who was it who erected barricades

 2     around the KP Dom?

 3        A.   Well, I'm not aware of the barricades being there at all.

 4        Q.   Who was it who controlled the KP Dom?

 5        A.   Initially, it was, I believe, the Muslim forces.  That was the

 6     period of time when Donje Polje which is an area where KP Dom is located

 7     was defended by the Muslim forces.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at the document further down.  A working

 9     group is to be set up to deal with the line of separation and divisions.

10     So you are being offered here a municipality of your own and, in fact, in

11     all the maps being discussed at the time, most of Foca and the

12     municipalities were supposed to belong to the Muslims.

13        A.   Well, there is no veracity to this.  This was a one-sided

14     document.

15        Q.   Why don't you leave that to the Trial Chamber to decide upon.

16     You were among the top echelons of the authorities there.  Were you not

17     aware of the fact that this was being discussed on 8 April at a time when

18     Muslim forces controlled significant portions of the town?

19        A.   No, that is not correct.

20        Q.   Under 12, movement of all and any units is forbidden.  The TO

21     storage facility should be restored to its earlier condition, fire is not

22     to be opened as long as negotiations are ongoing, any armed groups are

23     forbidden from going into neighbourhoods, inmates should be caught and

24     sent back to the KP Dom.  Were you aware of the fact that there were

25     inmates, convicts, who had fled the KP Dom?

Page 18949

 1        A.   Yes.  I know, but in agreement with -- that was done in -- with

 2     the consent of the person in charge of the KP Dom and he was a Serb at

 3     the time.

 4        Q.   How can you know that?  How are you able to know that warden of

 5     the KP Dom was in agreement with this?

 6        A.   Well, it was Miro Stanic who said so to the Serb TV at Pale three

 7     years later, that the Serbs were among the first ones to be released.

 8     They were allowed to go back to their own municipalities and to join

 9     Crisis Staffs and Territorial Defence structures.  He went on to say that

10     next it was the turn of the Muslims and the Muslims from Sandzak to be

11     released, the latter Muslims were perhaps able to reach their homes.  As

12     for the release of inmates, it did happen, and the population received

13     this with apprehension.  There was shooting accompanying one of these

14     cases but it was more the case of a flight of prisoners rather than

15     organised release.

16        Q.   Well, we will have an opportunity to hear what Mr. Stanic said

17     rather than hear your interpretation of his words.  But why would they be

18     chasing them down, the inmates who fled the KP Dom, if they were released

19     as part of an organised exercise?

20        A.   Mr. Karadzic, this is a well-formulated document which is

21     supposed to lend support to what the Serb Democratic Party and its staff

22     is doing.  This is to justify their conduct and actions but it is not the

23     truth.

24        Q.   Thank you.  We will not go into a debate about it.  This is a

25     document that wasn't published.  It was a document between the Muslims

Page 18950

 1     and the Serbs.  Can you see under 20 that it was agreed that joint mixed

 2     patrols of the army and the MUP were to be set up?  This did not happen

 3     either, did it?

 4        A.   It is merely one of the provisions of this order or agreement

 5     which never took hold.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, can this document be

 7     admitted, please.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, while you stated this is an agreement

 9     between the Muslims and Serbs, which was denied by the witness, and we

10     have no basis to -- we have no idea about its foundation, whether it's

11     just a draft or it's an agreement and who signed it.  I don't think we

12     have -- without having to have the assistance by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we

13     don't have -- we have no basis to admit it, in addition to the fact that

14     this hasn't been translated.  We will not admit this.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I do see a number at the bottom.

16     I believe -- oh, no, I'm sorry, it's our number.  Very well.  We will

17     look for another opportunity to have it admitted.  Thank you.

18             Can we have a look at 1D4235?

19        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Witness, that you sabotaged or stone-walled

20     the appointment of a Serb to the position of the commander of the TO.

21     Mr. Sulejman Pilav, contrary to all the agreements reached, remained in

22     the position of the TO commander through to the end?

23        A.   Well, I never challenged it.  I wasn't involved in the

24     appointment of Sulejman Pilav to the position of the TO commander.

25        Q.   Is it not true that according to the interparty agreement, this

Page 18951

 1     post was supposed to be taken up by the Serbs?

 2        A.   I really can't remember.  I can't remember what the allotment of

 3     posts was.

 4        Q.   Do you mean to say that you don't recall that this was one of the

 5     main bones of contention between you and the Foca Serbs, the fact that

 6     you tricked them, they agreed to the appointment of all the Muslim cadres

 7     and you opposed this one post?

 8        A.   No.  According to the interparty agreement, based on the number

 9     of seats won, or number of votes won, and according to the agreement

10     reached within the Municipal Assembly, i.e. the commission that was

11     appointed, this is how it was done.

12        Q.   Can you see, Mr. Witness, that on 3 October 1991, still Sulejman

13     Pilav is the TO commander?  Can we scroll down and we can see that the

14     president of the Executive Board is asking for the umpteenth time that

15     the appointment of one of the two Serb candidates go ahead?  You were

16     among the top echelons of the party in Foca, and you are telling us here

17     that you were not aware of this dispute which was one of the most serious

18     ones and sought to disenfranchise the Serbs?

19        A.   No.  Truly, such a level of tensions in the relations is not

20     something that I would remember, specifically in the month of October of

21     1991, as this document states.

22        Q.   Can you read the document?  It says that it is seeking the

23     removal of Sulejman Pilav and the appointment of one of the two

24     candidates?

25        A.   Yes.  Well, this is acceptable.  If the head of the police force

Page 18952

 1     was supposed to be a Muslim, then by all means the person at the helm of

 2     the Territorial Defence had to be a Serb.  But I wasn't the one who was

 3     stone-walling this appointment.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can this document be admitted, please?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  This can be marked for identification,

 6     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?  Do you have any objection?

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour, no objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be done.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D1685, Your Honours.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And now can we look at

11     1D4234?

12        Q.   This is the agreement according to which posts were supposed to

13     be distributed in Foca.  Are you familiar with the name

14     Fahrudin Suvalija; does it ring a bell?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Was he one of the officials in the SDA city board in Foca?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you please help us and tell us whether it says here agenda,

19     staffing issues, and the date is 27 June 1991, seven or eight months

20     after the elections, right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Does it say here that under 1, Radojica Mladjenovic, on behalf of

23     the Serbian side, and Halid Cengic informed the attendees of about the

24     appointment of the chief of the security station and commander of the

25     police and do we agree that the chief was a Muslim and that the commander

Page 18953

 1     was supposed to be a Serb, like in all the other municipalities, one was

 2     supposed to be from one people and the other from the other people,

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was that a good custom that prevailed even during the Communist

 6     reign?

 7        A.   Well, not really, not always.  It depended on the municipality.

 8     Mr. Karadzic, I'm going to answer by saying this.  I'm going to give you

 9     the facts.  In the former Yugoslavia, in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina,

10     the Serbs always occupied a dominant position in the army, in the

11     politics, among the executives of various companies.

12        Q.   Sir, let's not go that way.  I can easily prove to you that the

13     Serbs were far below the 40 something per cent that was their share in

14     the overall Yugoslav population but that's not Foca.  Let's stick to

15     Foca.  That's something you should know.  Do you see that there are also

16     conclusions here as to what needed to be done, Muhamed Podrug and

17     Zulfer Pjano are mentioned here as candidates for the prosecution, the

18     Territorial Defence Staff, and so on and so forth.  And can we now go to

19     the following page, please?  And now could you please show us the

20     signature on that page?  Do you see that on 27 June, Fahrudin Suvalija

21     and Miro Stanic signed this document?

22        A.   I apologise.  What document is this?

23        Q.   Well, this refers to the points dealing with various positions,

24     that the commander of Foca, the assistant commander for traffic and so on

25     and so forth.

Page 18954

 1        A.   Well, there is a reference to the prosecution and the

 2     investigators with the Court.  Zulfer and the other name, but you didn't

 3     read out a single Serb name.

 4        Q.   Dragan Lausevic was the candidate for the post of public

 5     prosecutor, and it was agreed that on behalf of the SDA, the president of

 6     the Court was supposed to be --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, this document seems to be of two pages.  Would

 8     you like to read it from the first page again?  Why don't you show him

 9     the first page.  The date seems to be 20 June and the date it was

10     processed seems to be 27th.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Probably.

12        Q.   Could you please now look starting with the agenda, and it says

13     that Halid Cengic and Radojica Mladjenovic agreed what needed to be done

14     and what persons should be appointed.  Let's look at conclusion 2,

15     please.  You see that when it comes to the president of the Court, on

16     behalf of the SDA, there were two candidates and one of them were

17     supposed to be selected.  Both were Muslims, Mohamed Podrug and

18     Zulfer Pjano?

19        A.   Yes, we can see that that indeed was a proposal, but who were the

20     Serb candidates?

21        Q.   The deputy public prosecutor was also Senija Sofradzija; that was

22     the proposal, right?  And as for the public prosecutor, was

23     Dragan Lausevic, the president of the court was supposed to be a Serb and

24     the public prosecutor was supposed to be a Muslim, right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18955

 1        Q.   And that was then sent to the state bodies as an agreement

 2     reached between the two parties.

 3        A.   Mr. Karadzic, this is a mere proposal.  This is not the finalised

 4     state of affairs.

 5        Q.   Who was it who became the president of the court in June 1991?

 6        A.   The Serb that was in that position previously was never replaced

 7     by anybody.  He is still in that position.

 8        Q.   Do you know who is it who appoints judges?

 9        A.   It is the Executive Board, the municipal Executive Board, who

10     does that.

11        Q.   It is the People's Assembly who appoints judges, upon the

12     minister's proposal, right?

13        A.   Well, we are talking about the municipal level, aren't we?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, you asked what document this is about, when

15     asked by the accused whether you saw the signatories.  So now, are you in

16     the position to answer the question what this -- as to the signatories?

17     Let us show him the last part, second page.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  There is no dispute about the

19     signatories.  I agree that those were Mr. Fahrudin Suvalija and

20     Mr. Miro Stanic.  I agree with that.  But however we can see that this is

21     the city board and we can see the SDS.  I can't comprehend that Suvalija

22     and Stanic could discuss such important positions in view of the fact

23     that there was a municipality composed of Muslims and Serbs and that that

24     municipality had all the bodies.  There was a Muslim who was the head of

25     the municipality and the head of the Executive Board was a Serb,

Page 18956

 1     Mr. Radojica, I believe.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   However, Mr. Witness, when it comes to the state bodies, were

 4     they not sent a list with two or more candidates pursuant to the

 5     interparty agreement?  The municipality could not appoint judges, it was

 6     the Republican Assembly who did that on the proposal of the minister, and

 7     the minister in his turn had to receive proposals from the area.  If

 8     somebody inappropriate was proposed as a candidate, the minister would

 9     not approve that, but in most cases, the interparty agreement was

10     honoured, in most cases save for the case of the commander of the

11     Territorial Defence?

12        A.   Yes.  But this is just a proposal that was supposed to be sent to

13     the republican bodies.

14        Q.   Yes, I'm talking about the things that happened in Foca.

15        A.   Okay.  Well, let's then agree that this is just a proposal, that

16     this formed -- that this is just a proposal.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  That will be marked for identification.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1686, Your Honours.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D4231.

22        Q.   Do you see that the republican staff of Territorial Defence on 21

23     February 1992 wrote this letter to Foca municipality, to the president of

24     the Executive Board, and it says here the Municipal Assembly of Foca is

25     providing an opinion on the appointment of the commander of the

Page 18957

 1     Territorial Defence of Foca, and it says that Sulejman Pilav was in a the

 2     position from 1989 without my approval and agreement.  In -- according to

 3     our criteria, he does not meet the requirements for that post.  What was

 4     his profession?

 5        A.   As far as I can remember, he was a nurse and he was also a law

 6     student.

 7        Q.   Sulejman Pilav was older than us, wasn't he?

 8        A.   Perhaps a year or two.

 9        Q.   Well, it was rather late for him to be a law student in 1992?

10        A.   Yes.  But he could still be a student, a part-time student.

11        Q.   Can we go to the next page, please?  You see here, in the second

12     paragraph, where it says it is inadmissible in a state with the rule of

13     law that Captain First Class Sulejman Pilav is performing the duties of

14     the TO commander in Foca without any official appointment and without any

15     adequate education.

16             [As read] "Please urgently send me a proposal for the appointment

17     of a new TO commander.  Here enclosed, please, find copies of facsimiles

18     and interparty agreement which shows that what you're requesting from me

19     is a strict adherence to the legal procedures and that you, yourself, are

20     in breach of such practices."

21             And the signatory here is Mr. Vukosavljevic.  Did you know that

22     the person held a position which was supposed to be given to Serbs and

23     which was supposed to be occupied by a person with adequate education,

24     that this is contrary to all agreements in 1992?

25        A.   Well, I'm not aware of this letter but I do know that a majority

Page 18958

 1     in the SDA party agreed that there should be changes there, and it was

 2     never our view that there was something to contest on our part, and I've

 3     already told you that if a Muslim was the chief of the public security

 4     station, it was only logical that the chief of the Territorial Defence

 5     was a Serb.  For example, Mr. Cedo, who was a moderate person and we

 6     would have all accepted him.  I apologise, let me finish.  I don't see

 7     that this was a major sticking point that would necessarily have led to

 8     conflicts and rifts among the peoples.

 9        Q.   However, do you agree, witness, that the political life does not

10     tolerate such tricks and deceits?  If something is agreed it should be

11     implemented?

12        A.   Yes, I agree with you.  However, in political sense, nothing is

13     ever, ever ideal.  I'm not contesting that this should have been done in

14     a more effective way, in a faster and more efficient way.  That this

15     would have avoided unnecessary problems among the people.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  In addition to the fact that this hasn't been

20     translated, speaking for myself, I doubt whether -- I'm not sure if this

21     document is relevant and whether it relates to any part of the witness's

22     evidence in one way or another.  I will consult my colleagues.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we will not admit this.  After all, it

25     boils down to the efficient conduct of your cross-examination.  It turned

Page 18959

 1     out that you wasted time.  Come to your real issues, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency, but my idea

 3     is to show why a conflict happened there, whether the seed of that

 4     discord was planted there, in their midst, or was it imposed from above,

 5     from the republic, and this has a direct link with the charges brought

 6     against me.  I didn't even know anything about all those happenings over

 7     there.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind, Mr. Karadzic, the invaluable

 9     advice from Judge Robinson yesterday -- I'm sorry, Judge Morrison.  It's

10     Friday.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll do my best.

12        Q.   Witness, tell me, I don't know whether I asked you this

13     yesterday:  Do you know that Mr. Halid Cengic who is mentioned in here,

14     in 1990, during the Communist reign before the elections in Ustikolina,

15     in the mosque, set up the first unit of the Patriotic League?

16        A.   No, no.

17        Q.   Are you saying that you didn't know that or that he did not set

18     it up?

19        A.   Both.  He didn't set it up and I didn't know it.

20        Q.   Well, how do you know that he didn't set it up if you didn't know

21     it?

22        A.   Well, I'm sure I would have learnt about that.  My village is not

23     far from Ustikolina.  I used to pass that way quite often, and I spent

24     some time working in Ustikolina and, really, that did not take place.  It

25     would have echoed, it would have been heard.

Page 18960

 1        Q.   If it did happen, it had a lot of impact among the Serbs, did it

 2     not?

 3        A.   Well, what you're giving me is a false thesis and you're trying

 4     to trap me into that.  I apologise.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you say that in early April 1992, I visited Foca?

 6        A.   No, I never said that, I never said that you visited Foca.

 7        Q.   You say some Serbian politicians from the republican level

 8     including Karadzic visited Foca at the time.  You said that in -- on 27

 9     November 2000.  And the case is IT 97-2-2, on page 186.

10        A.   I really can't remember that I ever said that.  First of all --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Witness, the interpreters couldn't hear your last

13     part.  Could you repeat your answer kindly?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't remember that

15     statement, that I said that.  I never saw you in Foca.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Perhaps the document could be put to the

17     witness so that he can see what he, in fact, said, where.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I don't have a 1D number but if

20     you can bear with me for a moment.

21             JUDGE KWON:  If the date is 27 November, then it should be his

22     sixth 92 ter transcript.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] P3335, yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And page number?

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1186.  I don't know the number in

Page 18961

 1     e-court but in transcript it is 1186.  Page 7 in e-court.  I'm going to

 2     read it out and then it can be interpreted.

 3             [In English] [As read] "Q.  Did politicians from the republic

 4     level appeared in Foca in that time period?

 5             "A.  Yes, especially those who were born in Foca.  Among them

 6     were Mr. Velibor Ostojic and Mr. Maksimovic and they were often visiting

 7     Foca.  Occasionally Mrs. Plavsic would visit as well.  I think she was,

 8     out of the three leading figures, Karadzic, and the third one who died,

 9     I can't remember exactly -- Koljevic -- so she was the one who visited

10     most often."

11             [Interpretation] You mention me here as a colleague of

12     Professor Plavsic's, not as a man who visited Foca?

13        A.   What was interpreted to me now is the truth.  That is what

14     I said.

15        Q.   Are you trying to say that in the beginning of April,

16     Mrs. Plavsic came to Foca?

17        A.   Yes.  There was this holiday, it was before April.  I think it

18     was January or February.  It was -- it was Trinity Day, one of your

19     holidays, and this gathering was held at the Sutjeska stadium where you

20     held your first gathering and where you introduced the Serb Democratic

21     Party of Foca in September 1992.  That is when Mrs. Plavsic was in Foca,

22     on this holiday of yours.  Trinity Day.

23        Q.   Thank you.  May I remind you, Mr. Witness, of course you don't

24     have to know about this, that in all Christian churches, Trinity Day is

25     50 days after Easter, and that can certainly not be later than mid-July.

Page 18962

 1        A.   I do apologise if I confused the names but there was this holiday

 2     of the Serbs that brought the Serbs together in this early period of

 3     1992.  Mr. Karadzic, I do remember that very vividly because my apartment

 4     is not far away from the Sutjeska stadium, when I heard shouts, gunshots,

 5     I really felt very worried and I was wondering what was going on and what

 6     was in the making.  The iconography was varied.  There were people from

 7     Serbia there.  The Chetnik movement of Ravna Gora was being mentioned.

 8     Also there were shouts that Serbs would tell the Muslims who they were,

 9     that they would defend their own country, their own land, the Serb

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and so on and so forth.

11        Q.   Witness, in the summer of 1991, that could not have happened.

12     Especially when the Pentecost is being observed, there can be no shooting

13     whatsoever.  Are you talking about a political meeting or gathering or

14     are you talking about Pentecost?

15        A.   We are going to see what it was when we hear Mr. Stanic's

16     transcript and then I'm going to apologise if I misstated this Serb

17     holiday.  I don't know when it actually does happen.  I know for sure

18     that the 7th of January is Christmas Day.  I'm not sure of any other

19     dates, as far as Serb holidays are concerned.  However, this event had to

20     do with some holiday, some Serb holiday, that is.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you saw an M-48 rifle in the hands of

22     Mladen Zecevic, right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know that M-48 rifles have been decommissioned in the JNA,

25     actually 15 or 20 years ago, they had been decommissioned?

Page 18963

 1        A.   That I don't know.

 2        Q.   Do you know that a hunting carbine resembles an M-48 to a great

 3     extent?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I was never interested in weapons.  However,

 5     I only knew M-48 rifles because that is what I had been issued with as

 6     I did my military service.  (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could the Chamber move into private

21     session?

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18964











11  Page 18964 redacted. Private session.















Page 18965

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   4226, page 2, and 227, in that I'd like page 3.  Do you remember

25     giving these statements?  Is it correct here that Muhamed Kameric,

Page 18966

 1     nicknamed Meca, entered the health centre?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   A Muslim wearing camouflage uniform and armed with two hand

 4     grenades; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  But he had nothing to do with this.  I happened to be there

 6     and the director, Sadinlja and two drivers and a colleague,

 7     Biljana Popovic and Vojkan Slavica, who were two nurses, we were highly

 8     surprised.  We were wondering how come he showed up there and we were

 9     wondering what he wanted.  I am sorry.  As for this statement, we haven't

10     done anything.

11        Q.   Well, witness, do you see this detail that you referred to when

12     speaking to the Bosnian authorities?  You did not tell the investigator

13     from The Hague about that, this detail is not contained in your other

14     statement, right?

15        A.   I am trying to say that I stand by all the statements I gave to

16     the organs of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that I gave to the investigators of the

17     Tribunal in Sarajevo, and, of course, here before the Court.

18        Q.   Thank you.  However, the fact remains that what you said to the

19     Bosnian authorities, namely that Kameric, Muhamed, wearing a camouflage

20     uniform entered the health centre in camouflage uniform and with two hand

21     grenades.  That is something that you did not repeat to the investigator

22     of The Hague Tribunal, right?

23        A.   He probably didn't ask me about that.  I really cannot recall

24     that detail now.  I have to tell you that it's been a long, long time, if

25     we look at the period that we are talking about now.  You have to know

Page 18967

 1     that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What kind of uniform was Muhamed Kameric wearing?

 3        A.   I've already mentioned.  I think it was a dirty camouflage

 4     uniform.  However, as soon as he came in, I was taken out of the basement

 5     for these interviews and that's how I saw him.  Otherwise I wouldn't have

 6     seen him.

 7        Q.   You say that this Zecevic came wearing a JNA uniform, and you say

 8     that someone, either he or someone else, called out your name from the

 9     basement, that you should go to negotiate.

10        A.   Sorry, Zecevic was not calling out my name.  He was an elderly

11     man.  (redaction)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        Q.   Thank you.

15        A.   You see, this group was commanded by Cicmil.  I think that he

16     was --

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Are we in open session?  Because we are

18     discussing --

19             JUDGE KWON:  That's noted.  Could the Chamber move into private

20     session?

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18968











11  Pages 18968-18969 redacted. Private session.















Page 18970

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now back in open session.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it true that you stated that the person

 7     interrogating you did not physically mistreat you?

 8        A.   Yes.  We knew each other from before.  We would go frequently on

 9     missions in the field.  He on behalf of the police force, and I on behalf

10     of my profession.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You say that Goran Kukavica was also among those

12     arrested.  Was he a Serb?

13        A.   He was our driver, and he was in a mixed marriage.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  He was born to a mixed marriage, interpreter's

15     correction.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18971

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4        A.   That's not true.  I don't think I've properly understood your

 5     point.

 6        Q.   Well, there were three or four Muslims there who were told that

 7     they were free to go home, whereas others were arrested.  So --

 8        A.   Yes.  Well, let me clarify this.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Shall we go back to private session

10     briefly?

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, I think so, Your Honour, it's safer.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18972











11  Page 18972 redacted. Private session.















Page 18973

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time.  We will take a break now.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] One more question, please, if

15     I may.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, if the Serbs attacked Foca, why would they ask the

19     Muslims about their whereabouts during the attack?

20        A.   Can you please repeat your question?

21        Q.   The first question put was one inquiring about the whereabouts of

22     the Muslims on the eve of the attack of Foca.  Why would this question

23     have been put to them if the Serbs had attacked Foca?

24        A.   Well, this was the tactics that they employed in their

25     interrogation.

Page 18974

 1        Q.   Very well.  After the break we will show the lists of those who

 2     were released after having gone through the first interrogations.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We will take a break for half an hour and resume at

 4     11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, this is my thesis:  Interviews were conducted in

10     detention.  Certain individuals were released home after having been

11     interrogated.  Others were released even if they were not interrogated,

12     if somebody guaranteed for them.  And others were not released but were

13     transferred to Kula or elsewhere and were released at a later date.  Is

14     that right?

15        A.   That's your thesis and it's not correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look up 65 ter 14733?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind pause, sir, before you answer

18     the question.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Can I ask you to cast a glance at this list?  It is a list of

21     prisoners of war of Muslim ethnicity to be released from the KP Dom in

22     Foca in order to be exchanged for captured Serbs from Konjic.  Is that

23     right?

24        A.   Give me a moment.  Let us see the heading, the number and the

25     date when it was written.

Page 18975

 1        Q.   The date, the signature and the stamp are at the bottom.

 2     Colonel Kovac.  The prisoners were taken over by Lieutenant Milos Andic,

 3     can you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see it, yes.  But this isn't accurate.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can it be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, you said this is not accurate.  Could you

 7     expand?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down or rather up?

 9     I'd like to go from number 1, if I can.  Let me start from number 4.  I

10     am familiar with the name.  This individual worked with me.  The

11     particulars are accurate.  He was exchanged in the late autumn of 1992

12     for captured Serb civilians at Trnovo front line where fighting was going

13     on.  That's true.

14             Under 6, Salih Music, the same applies to him.

15             Under 13, it should be 13, Abid Sahovic, son of Avdo born in

16     1936, the same applies to him, the particulars are correct.  I know the

17     three of them were to be exchanged for Serbs but not in Konjic, rather at

18     the Trnovo front line.  That's true.  The remainder of them stayed in the

19     camp for a long period of time.  Some of them were exchanged, namely

20     Suljo Haznadar, under 12.  He stayed on until, I believe, 6 October 1994.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Could we show the first two lines, top,

22     upper part of this document?  Could you kindly read the two lines, for

23     our benefit?  Because the accused hasn't offered us the translation of

24     this document in order for us to understand.  If you could read those two

25     lines so that the interpreters can interpret?

Page 18976

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [As read] "List of prisoners of war

 2     of Muslim ethnicity who are being released from the KPD Foca to be

 3     exchanged for Serbs prisoners from Konjic."

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If you could read also the last two lines?  Shall we

 5     show him the last lines?  Further down, further down.  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             [As read] "The prisoners of war were taken over by members of the

 8     command of the 2nd Light Infantry Brigade, Konjic, under the command of

 9     Lieutenant Milos Andric.  8 December 1992."

10             When it comes to the 8th of 12 -- of December, I would like to --

11     this is something that reminds me of a completely different set of

12     individuals who were released under the pretext of having to be

13     released -- to be exchanged in Konjic.  But, in fact, quite a different

14     fate befell them.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  We will mark it for identification.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1687, Your Honours.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Here is another example,

20     65 ter 14739.

21        Q.   Have a look.  The date is 18 July 1992.  It reads that

22     Alic Mirsad should be released after being checked because he did not

23     participate in the hostile activity in Foca.

24             So you can see here that the individual's background was checked,

25     and it was decided that he should be released and set free in Foca.

Page 18977

 1        A.   Well, I myself don't know Mirsad Alic and I could not state for a

 2     fact that he was in the KP Dom in Foca to begin with.  I don't consider

 3     this to be a reliable document.

 4        Q.   And why, Mr. Witness?  Why is that?  This document was produced

 5     in July of 1992.  Why do you not consider it reliable?

 6        A.   Well, because a day earlier, something different happened at the

 7     KP Dom, something dangerous, if I may put it so.  A large group of 45

 8     Muslims were taken out and disappeared without a trace.  Later on, in a

 9     grave, a great many of them were found.  They were killed from firearms

10     at point blank with a shot to the head.  That happened a day earlier.  On

11     17 July.  No, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it was on 17 September.  I apologise

12     to everyone.

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, we will come back to that if we have time enough.

14     Please do not go into details.  Are you challenging this?

15        A.   Well, I don't know that he was in the camp or that he was

16     released.  I do challenge that.

17        Q.   But you do concede that individuals would be released?

18        A.   Well, they would be taken back to their cells after having been

19     interrogated.  They would be tortured and they would then be taken out

20     and disappear without a trace.  Probably killed.

21        Q.   Are you aware of anyone who was forever -- for whatever reason

22     released and stayed in Foca?

23        A.   Well, we have confirmed that Enes Zekovic was released but he did

24     not stay in Foca.  He went to Germany with his wife, and I think that he

25     was released because he was blackmailed for his property.  It happened

Page 18978

 1     also with Lojo Dzevad, the mine manager, and a couple of others as well.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, why don't you furnish the Prosecution with evidence

 3     to that effect and answer my question?  Can this be admitted?

 4             Mr. Witness, you are exaggerating, you are not honest and you are

 5     not telling the truth.

 6        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I have been called here to tell the truth and

 7     nothing more than the truth, truly.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic should not make

10     this kind of comments but in relation to this document, unless I'm

11     missing something, there is no reference to a detention of this gentleman

12     in the KP Dom.  At least I cannot see any.  So -- but I do not object

13     against the admission of this document because it looks authentic.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will mark it for identification.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1688, Your Honours.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] And let us now see an example when

17     a person was released without having been interrogated.  Can we now look

18     at 65 ter 14742.  14742.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P3346, Your Honours.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I believe that there

21     is a translation which will make things easier.

22        Q.   Look, witness, on 9 May, there is still a Crisis Staff in place.

23     There is no Serbian army there.  You see that this is a list, and since

24     there is a translation I don't need to read.  However, it says:

25             [As read] "Pursuant to the Miljevina Territorial Defence and the

Page 18979

 1     approval of the 7th Battalion commander, following persons shall be

 2     released without interrogation."  And they are Muslims.

 3        A.   Mr. Karadzic, yesterday we discussed this document.  Do we have

 4     to go over the same document again today?  I've told you, I dwelt upon

 5     the name under 13.  I explained what his lot was, how he disappeared, how

 6     he was buried ultimately, and as for the rest of them, my conclusion was

 7     that all these people from the list were killed.  They never turned up

 8     alive.  I never claimed that they were all in KP Dom, that they had all

 9     been brought there.  This is a list containing the names of the persons

10     who were by and large poor.  They were miners in the coal mine in

11     Miljevina.  They were not interested in politics, in party affiliation,

12     they were in their own homes.  They were, most of them at least, elderly,

13     frail.  I knew most of them very well because I lived with my family in

14     Miljevina for 15 years and I know the area very well.  But I would like

15     to point out that younger people from the list were in the camp, like,

16     for example, I would say that Senad Dzanko is a wrong name.  There was

17     Edin and Elvedin Dzanko, there were two brothers, younger men and

18     together with another person, Adil, who was a bachelor in economics in

19     August 1992, they were brought out from the camp and they were killed.

20        Q.   Do you have proof of that?

21        A.   Yes.  Adil's body has been exhumed already.

22        Q.   And he could not have been killed any other way?  The only way he

23     could die was by having been taken out of the camp and killed?

24        A.   Yes.  That's what I'm claiming.  In the middle of the day, guards

25     stormed his room and the room of -- where the Dzanko brothers were.  They

Page 18980

 1     took them to the metal or to the iron gate, through which we either

 2     entered or exited from the perimeter of the KP Dom, I described them as

 3     resounding in a very typical way that made an impression on all of us.

 4     And they were standing there for a long time.  And my room or my cell,

 5     number 12, its windows overlooked the gate directly, and they were

 6     standing there for a long time, the police came, they took them out, and

 7     from then on, every trace of them was lost.  After a long time, I had an

 8     occasion to be in Sarajevo after I was released from the camp to meet

 9     with the parents of all of them.  Dzankos' mother was as white as a

10     sheep.

11        Q.   Witness, is it correct that people, after having been released,

12     joined the BiH army and was that your case as well?

13        A.   No, no.  According to the rulings of the International Red Cross,

14     and according to some other conventions, we were not duty-bound or forced

15     to become member of the BiH army.  I personally never joined the BiH army

16     after having been released from the camp.

17        Q.   And what about the others?  Did the others join the army?

18        A.   No, I don't know a single person who joined the army.

19     I apologise.  They were all thin, exhausted, we were all on the brink of

20     survival.  I spent six months and three days in the camps and it took me

21     six months to recover.  How could I have become a member of any military

22     formation?  And the same applies to all the others.  You are not even

23     asking me about the conditions that we suffered in the camp.  You've

24     never asked me that.

25        Q.   Witness, those who were released on 9 May, are you saying that

Page 18981

 1     they were exhausted to such an extent that they could not recover

 2     sufficiently within the next two or three months to join the BiH army and

 3     to be killed in fighting, are you claiming that?

 4        A.   Yes, especially in view of the fact that all these men were

 5     elderly, frail, and infirm.  I am telling you that I lived in Miljevina

 6     for 15 and more years.

 7        Q.   That's enough, we don't need to go into all those details.

 8     I would like to call up 65 ter 15795 now.

 9             Were these people in the camp in Foca and were they exchanged on

10     30th of October 1992, or were they killed?  And it says here that they

11     were exchanged?  At the bottom you can see that Milenko Vukovic,

12     commander of the Konjic military police took the detainees over and it

13     was approved by Colonel Kovac.

14        A.   Please bear with me.

15        Q.   Are you saying that this exchange never took place or do you

16     agree that it did?  The decision was taken on 29th and on the 30th, the

17     exchange took place?

18        A.   But this didn't take place in Konjic but in the Trnovo front

19     line.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1689, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, what did you say about the time when the

25     Serbian Municipality of Foca started functioning?  When was that?

Page 18982

 1        A.   According to the document that we saw, that was on 31 December

 2     1991.  That's when it was established and it has been functioning ever

 3     since.

 4        Q.   The Defence puts it to you that it was then that it was

 5     proclaimed and that it did not become operational before the war started.

 6     And now let's look at 1D4211.  1D4211.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Hasn't been released, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Not notified either.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] It should be in e-court.  I

11     believe it is.

12        Q.   Do you see, witness, that on 7 April, the president of the

13     Serb Municipality of Foca, Josif Milicic says under item 1 on 7 April

14     1992, all bodies of the Serbian Municipality of Foca started working and

15     then an appeal is launched to the Serbian people and all citizens to

16     preserve peace, not to buy into provocation, not to move out of Foca, and

17     under 3 it says that units of the Territorial Defence, together with the

18     members of the public security station, will prevent the presence of

19     paramilitary formations, that they will inform citizens that it is not

20     against the holding of rallies but that they should be reported in order

21     for the citizens to be protected.  Do you know if there were any

22     paramilitary formations that Mr. Milicic refers to and says that they

23     would forbid their presence?

24        A.   Yes.  I'm familiar with Mr. Milicic's name but I'm not aware of

25     this document.  I never saw it before.

Page 18983

 1        Q.   Do you know that the Serbian Municipality of Foca appealed to the

 2     citizens, both Muslims and Serbs, not to move out of Foca, and there is

 3     another document that has been admitted, it actually appealed to them to

 4     return to Foca?

 5        A.   That may be accepted but I would request a different explanation.

 6     When they were called to return, that was another trap.  They wanted just

 7     to increase the number of those who were caught.  There was an invitation

 8     of that kind heard in Foca and elsewhere.  They were called to return

 9     because they would be safe.  Some people believed that, but they fared

10     badly.  There was another provocation entitled, "A journey to an

11     uncertain freedom."

12        Q.   Witness, you told us that out of the 20.000 -- 28.000 and

13     something Muslims, not more than 5- or 6- or 650 were arrested, many of

14     whom were released immediately after checking or they were exchanged but

15     you are claiming here that the plan was for -- to arrest all of them.

16     You are under oath, here.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The witness did not say that.  He actually

20     started when this question was put to him for the first time this morning

21     he started to give a lot of more details where people were detained in

22     other places and he was then stopped by the accused.  He did never say

23     that out of this 28.000, only 500 to 600 or 650 were arrested.

24             JUDGE KWON:  No.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 18984

 1        Q.   Witness, did you say yesterday and repeated it today that up to

 2     650?  How many Muslims were taken prisoner in the April conflicts?

 3        A.   I will repeat what I've already said.  Between 600 and 650 were

 4     in KPD.  However, in addition to the KPD, there were other numerous

 5     places in the municipality of Foca, both camps and other places of

 6     detention, where smaller or larger groups were kept.  I was just going to

 7     mention motel Bukovica and Partizan where women were raped but you

 8     interrupted me.

 9        Q.   Witness, are you saying that the fact that civilians were placed

10     in the barracks in Filipovici and in the school, for their protection,

11     that these people were also detained?

12        A.   Yes, they were detainees.

13        Q.   Although they went there of their own will to seek shelter,

14     you're saying that they were detained?

15        A.   What kind of a shelter is a school?  Everybody knows only too

16     well what a school is for.  They were taken there from their own homes,

17     from their houses, from the streets.  They been captured and arrested and

18     let me say something about the Filipovic barracks.  There were no

19     barracks there.  There were military depots there on the hill slope some

20     fuel was kept there and those facilities which were military facilities,

21     had been built several years before the war by a civilian company, and

22     the employees of that company were guards guarding the facilities.  When

23     the war broke out and when the Muslims from Foca started fleeing towards

24     Ustikolina and Gorazde, they found themselves very close to those

25     facilities that you refer to as Filipovic barracks.  Filipovici did not

Page 18985

 1     have any barracks so that would be that.  That's my explanation.

 2        Q.   But were they detainees or did they seek shelter there of their

 3     own will?

 4        A.   Abid Sahovic whom we saw on the list of those who were exchanged

 5     was one of those detained.  Please, let me finish my thought.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.  Please carry on.  Do you have more

 7     to say, Mr. Witness?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I just wanted to elaborate,

 9     and to tell you that a Mr. Abid Sahovic was on the list that we saw just

10     a little while ago.  He was in his house when he was taken prisoner and

11     brought to that shelter that Mr. Karadzic refers to which is only half a

12     kilometre away from his home.  Then he was taken to the Foca camp and

13     then he was exchanged at the Trnovo front line.  He was a very frail

14     person and during his stay in the camp he sought medical assistance and

15     so on and so forth.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Witness, we have another witness who claims that they were not

18     detainees.  Are you aware of the second document or declaration which was

19     an appeal for the people to return?  And you're saying that in all the

20     municipalities where it was heard that it was a trap?

21        A.   Yes, it was a clever deceit on behalf of the

22     Serbian Democratic Party and the political leadership.  Unfortunately it

23     was perilous for many Muslims who returned.

24        Q.   Do you know that Muslims and Serbs were prevented from leaving

25     Foca or Srbinje as it was also known at first, but then they were issued

Page 18986

 1     passes to be able to travel?

 2        A.   Are you speaking about Muslims?

 3        Q.   And Serbs as well.

 4        A.   I don't know about the Serbs.  As for the Muslims, some of them

 5     would receive a pass or permit of the sort but only rarely.

 6        Q.   Can we have 65 ter 16753?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The previous one can be marked for identification?

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1690.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I meant 1D4211.  Yes.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Have a look, Mr. Witness.  This is a pass issued to Armin Pilav

13     allowing him to travel to Belgrade and Skopje.  Can we have the next

14     page, please?  The date is 26 June, 1992.  This is to the name of

15     Lejla Pilav; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can we have the next page?  Same here, in the early days, they

18     wouldn't issue passes to anyone and at a later date they would issue

19     passes allowing movement; is that right?

20        A.   Allow me to say what I have to say about what we saw.  This is a

21     family Pilav, Hasan, husband, then the lady doctor --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

23        A.   And then their children, Armin and Lejla.  They were held in the

24     Livade camp from where they were transferred to the KP Dom Foca.

25     Dr. Pilav's husband, Hasan, was ill.  He had had a heart attack.  She

Page 18987

 1     wrote numerous letters requesting of all those who had superior positions

 2     in KP Dom Foca, that they be released from there.  After a number of

 3     discussions within the compound of the Foca Dom, they were released,

 4     though there were requests for her son Armin and husband Hasan to stay

 5     behind.  She was insistent, however, and somehow an agreement was

 6     reached.  Now that they received, at a later day, passes from, as it says

 7     here, the Foca public security station, this is something that I'm seeing

 8     for the first time now but do I not rule it out as a possibility.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1691, Your Honours.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we see what was the basis for

14     issuing them with the pass?  Can we look at P2642 briefly?

15        Q.   Witness, do you know that on 22 May, an agreement was signed in

16     Geneva placing the parties under an obligation to allow civilians to

17     cross from one side to the other and travel freely?

18        A.   What was the date you mentioned in relation to Geneva?

19        Q.   22 May.

20        A.   1992?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   No.  I'm not aware of such an agreement.  Even if it had been

23     signed, it would not have been complied with.

24        Q.   Very well.  In Foca, not complied with in Foca or anywhere in

25     Bosnia?

Page 18988

 1        A.   Anywhere in Bosnia, wherever there was a presence of the Serb

 2     forces.

 3        Q.   And how would you be able to know that?

 4        A.   Well, I do know from the period after my release, and I do put

 5     the various pieces of the mosaic together of what happened in

 6     Bosanska Krupa, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosanski Novi, Brcko, Bijeljina,

 7     Banja Luka, Foca, Cajnice, Visegrad, Zvornik, Vlasenica.

 8        Q.   Thank you, thank you, were you in all these locations?

 9        A.   No.  But we have figures, these are municipalities that you

10     ethnically cleansed.

11        Q.   Let's stick with Foca.  You were there.  Let's see what we have

12     here on the 18th of June, eight days before the family Pilav was

13     released.  Do you see that it says here that the civilian and military

14     authorities had to that date banned both Muslims and Serbs from leaving

15     Foca municipality?  It is stated that families have the right to stay

16     together and that both the military and civilian authorities should allow

17     all citizens who had not had a run-in with the law to travel, et cetera?

18             Do you see item 2 where it says that citizens of Muslim ethnicity

19     stated that they were betrayed and abandoned by their leadership and that

20     this was an additional incentive for them to leave Foca municipality?

21     Can we have the next page?  Do you not see that it was on the basis of

22     this request by Mr. Stanic, president of the War Presidency, so at this

23     stage we no longer have Crisis Staffs, we have the War Presidency, that

24     people were allowed to travel and were called to return?

25        A.   Well, I'm sure this was not the way things worked.  Nobody was

Page 18989

 1     allowed to leave Foca unless the person was first interrogated.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, do you claim that there was no shelter

 3     available for civilians and that wherever individuals were found to

 4     reside outside of their own residences, were, in fact, places of

 5     detention?

 6        A.   Well, there were basements in the various houses that could be

 7     deemed shelters.  Now, as for their safety, that's a different issue.

 8     The locations I cited were places where captured civilians were detained.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In your statements, you say that I said that should

10     there be a war, only one people would stay behind.  Are you referring

11     here to my address to the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina on 15 October

12     1991?

13        A.   Yes.  You said on that occasion that should there be a war, that

14     you were afraid or rather you said that the Muslims would not be able to

15     defend themselves.  By saying so, you sent a message across to the effect

16     that you knew that the Muslims did not have weapons, whereas you were

17     certain that the Serbs did.

18        Q.   So you were referring there to this speech of mine and no other?

19        A.   Yes.  But you did add, if I can be allowed to say so, that in

20     that event, Bosnia would disappear.

21        Q.   So would you say that I was war-mongering there or was I in fact

22     speaking against the war with the Muslims?

23        A.   Well, you did send a message across to the Muslims.  This was

24     during an attempt in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina to reach an

25     agreement about the referendum.  So this was shortly before the

Page 18990

 1     referendum that you disagreed with.  And when I say you, I mean the

 2     Serbian side.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is this your interpretation of the speech, or did you

 4     merely adopt a position on my speech that had been taken up by the Muslim

 5     leadership or the SDA?

 6        A.   Well, Mr. Karadzic, all the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 7     Yugoslavia carried this speech of yours.  It was a very strong message

 8     you sent.

 9        Q.   Your understanding was that I was, in fact, encouraging Muslims

10     to wage a war with us?

11        A.   Well, I don't know what the context was, but it is -- it can be

12     easily concluded your meaning, that is, when you said that one people

13     would disappear in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, I was dissuading them from the war option and not

15     persuading them to opt for it.  And did you not notice that

16     Muhamed Filipovic said what you just said I said at an earlier session

17     when he said that should a war broke out my people would disappear?

18        A.   I do not remember what Mr. Filipovic said but I do remember

19     clearly what you said.  You were aware of the fact that the Serb people

20     had received weapons from the JNA and that it was very nearly ready for a

21     war.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, did I say that should a war break out the Muslims

23     would not be able to defend themselves because they will have the Serbs

24     and the Croats on the other side and did they not in fact enter into a

25     conflict with both these sides?

Page 18991

 1        A.   You put several questions to me there.  Let me answer your first

 2     question.  You said, always, in all the rallies to the Serbs that they

 3     know how to fight and that they will know how to defend the Serb land and

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina was the Serb land and their enemies were

 5     Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats.  So in this context, the idea was

 6     that the war would be waged against the Muslims and the Croats, because

 7     they were in favour of a different option, that is, the referendum.

 8        Q.   Witness, please, we have all my speeches here and there is no

 9     need for either you or me to qualify them.  What I'm asking you is this:

10     Did I not ask in this speech of mine that we should not decide for the

11     war option and that the Muslims would not be able to defend themselves

12     from the two fires, i.e. the Serbs and the Croats?  Is this not something

13     that I said?

14        A.   I've already commented on this, and I believe that I was clear.

15     You are setting out theses of sorts.  You know that by that point there

16     was a war on between Yugoslavia and Croatia.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did not the Muslims at a later stage wage a war

18     against the Serbs and the Croats and Abdic's Muslims and that they got

19     less than what had been on offer with the Lisbon agreement?

20        A.   Unfortunately, when Tudjman and Milosevic drew up a plan to

21     divide Bosnia-Herzegovina, a conflict broke out between the Croats and

22     Bosnian Muslims in a part of Herzegovina and Central Bosnia, that's true.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And you do know for a fact that Tudjman and Milosevic

24     were the ones who agreed on it?

25        A.   Yes, it's a fact.  First in Karadjordje and later in Klagenfurt.

Page 18992

 1        Q.   And this is a fact that you accept but you'd heard it from the

 2     media or do you have any other source?

 3        A.   I heard it from the media, and it was mentioned repeatedly.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Is it not true that you were registered by the

 5     Red Cross while you were detained?

 6        A.   No.  I was hidden away with a group of 12 prisoners in the KP Dom

 7     Foca.  In the morning hours of the 23rd of June, 1993, we were taken to

 8     the basement of a bakery that was located right by the KP Dom.  We were

 9     not registered by the ICRC.  However, the prisoners who were registered

10     were the ones who were throughout that time members of a work platoon who

11     were forced to do farm work.  However, there was a group that was hidden

12     away.

13        Q.   However, finally, you were registered, you were registered when

14     you were in Kula as well, right?

15        A.   Yes.  When we arrived in Kula, after a while, I was registered.

16     Not immediately, though, because we had to wait for some reason.  Seven

17     or 10 days went by and then the International Red Cross arrived and then

18     I was registered.

19        Q.   Thank you.  When you testified in another case, this is not

20     disclosing your identity because many people testified in the trial of

21     president Milosevic, you said that many paramilitary formations took part

22     in what happened in Foca, right?

23        A.   Yes, yes, I've said that.

24        Q.   Do you know what their names were and how they were marked in

25     some way?

Page 18993

 1        A.   They were called the Guard.  I think they were from Uzice.  Then

 2     there were Seselj's men and Arkan's men.  However, as far as insignia are

 3     concerned, I said in my previous statement that I could never remember

 4     these insignia of theirs and their ranks and whatever.  To tell you the

 5     truth, I was never interested in that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that a certain Muslim named Salko was

 7     beaten by mistake?

 8        A.   Yes.  An attempt was made to slit his throat in a room that was

 9     assigned for prison torture.  Somebody else saw that this was not that

10     Salko Mandzo because there had been this other Salko Mandzo and this man

11     was released.  He came to my room and he had this cut on his throat.  Not

12     very deep but nevertheless there was this cut.

13        Q.   Who saved him, who indicated that it was the wrong man?

14        A.   One of the guards present there or one of the military policemen

15     who were torturing people in this room.  This was psychological and

16     physical torture against the detainees.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you find out what this Salko Mandzo was guilty

18     of?  Was this some kind of revenge for something that had happened

19     before?

20        A.   The man who survived and who was brought to my room after that

21     attempt to have him slaughtered, he explained all the things that

22     happened to him, whereas this other Salko Mandzo, I didn't even know him

23     so I don't know whether they had a particular intention in mind.

24        Q.   At any rate, there was some difference between these two

25     Salko Mandzos.  One they thought was guilty and the other one they

Page 18994

 1     thought was not guilty and when they realised that this was the one who

 2     was not guilty they let him go.

 3        A.   That's what I said.

 4        Q.   In your statement, this statement of yours, 4226, on page 8, you

 5     said that you had been registered by the Red Cross, and then you say that

 6     after that register you were discovered by the Red Cross, right?

 7        A.   No.  You got the two confused.  Let me explain.  Considerably

 8     before the Red Cross came, and before we found out about this, we

 9     actually did not know that the Red Cross would come on 23 June.  Let me

10     point this out.  Take a look at the date when we were detained, 11 April

11     1992.  It was only on 23 June 1993 that the International Red Cross was

12     allowed to come and visit the camps in Foca.  That is where we can see

13     this obstruction and this ban placed on the International Red Cross and

14     other humanitarian organisations that wanted to visit prisoners.  As for

15     this list that you are referring to, it was compiled in a smart way, if I

16     can put it that way.  They went from room to room so that prisoners would

17     say what their ailments were.  The explanation provided was that they

18     would be exchanged.  People believed that.  And the male nurse was

19     writing down names and he was saying what kind of ailments people had.

20     However, these people were not exchanged then.  On the contrary, they

21     stayed on, though they were ill and were exchanged only later.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We are going to deal with that another time with

23     other witnesses.  Tell me, do you know that I issued an order already in

24     June to all local civilian and police authorities stating that they have

25     to give access to the Red Cross?

Page 18995

 1        A.   No.  I don't know about that, but do show us that order of yours.

 2        Q.   1D4207.  Could we have that, please?  The original has already

 3     been admitted, and this is a telegram that was sent on the basis of that

 4     order.  4207.  Now, do you know that from the month of April 1992, until

 5     April 1993, about 1,100 Serbs lost their lives in Foca?

 6        A.   Yes.  We can question that particular figure.  I said that they

 7     established work platoons consisting of unskilled, skilled and highly

 8     skilled workers, immediately after the arrest.  And they were taken out

 9     for forced labour every day.  This was a rather large group, consisting

10     of 50 or 60 of them.  One of these groups included the people who went to

11     the textile factory.

12        Q.   Sir --

13        A.   Sorry, I haven't finished yet.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The question was whether 1.100 Serbs

15     lost their lives in Foca and I think you answered the question.  Your

16     next question, Mr. Karadzic?

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Can you please take a look at this document which is actually a

19     telegram, a telegraphic transformation of the original that we have

20     already admitted.  Could you please take a look at the Serbian version?

21     It says there that delegates of the International Red Cross should have

22     safe passage and that all of those who do not abide by this will be

23     punished.

24        A.   I cannot see the date.  When did you issue this?  On the screen,

25     I cannot see the date.

Page 18996

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, the date is June and that was in the media, too.

 2     However, the date was not placed here intentionally so that people would

 3     not think that it was dated or obsolete.

 4        A.   Mr. Karadzic, let us proceed under the assumption that you

 5     actually did send this telegram.  However, this never actually started

 6     working in practice on the ground.

 7        Q.   With regard to your previous answer, you said that you know that

 8     there was this figure of 1,100 Serbs that was bandied about but you say

 9     that that's debatable.  So what do you think, how many Serbs got killed

10     in Foca during that one year?

11        A.   I can certainly not present my opinion.  I was in camp for so

12     long that I cannot even make an assumption as to how many Serbs could

13     have lost their lives.  The lady I know who introduced herself as the

14     director at the time to the work platoon, she mentioned that figure in

15     the context of Serbs getting killed, not only Muslims.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what happened with Serbs and their

17     leadership in the neighbouring municipality of Gorazde before your

18     arrest?

19        A.   No.  I know nothing in particular.  I know that there was a

20     conflict there too.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Time is limited, Mr. Karadzic.  Come to your

22     relevant questions.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number of the original order you

25     referred to?

Page 18997

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] While we are looking for it, this

 2     is a telegraphic version of that order.  I think it has already been

 3     admitted.  This public call and --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'm asking for the number for the record.

 5     I take it there is no objection.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour, but I just want to take

 7     note there is no date, there is definitely not a date June in there and I

 8     do not recall any corresponding order but there may be.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That's why I'm asking for the Exhibit number we

10     admitted.  Yes, we will admit this and in the meantime I would like you

11     to inform us the exhibit number.  We will give the number for this.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D1692.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know how the Serb village of Josanica near

15     Foca fared?  Do you know that the Serbs there were killed, that the

16     village was set on fire, and do you know that all the Serb civilians that

17     the Muslim army came across were killed, and no prisoners were taken?

18        A.   When did that happen?

19        Q.   From April 1992 until -- until there weren't any Serbs left.

20        A.   Well, Serbs were in Foca always, and in the territory of the

21     municipality of Foca.

22        Q.   Do you know that in Josanica they were killed and that their

23     houses were burned?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Witness, do you know that tens of persons from the Serb family of

Page 18998

 1     Elez were killed as soon as the war started?

 2        A.   No, no.  Where did that happen?

 3        Q.   Well, you know that the Elezes live in Miljevina and around

 4     Miljevina.  They were killed in their own houses, in their own villages,

 5     tens of Elezes were killed?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The Elezes lived around Miljevina but there

 7     were less of them.  There weren't tens of them there and I'm not aware of

 8     them falling victim that way.

 9        Q.   This is what I'm going to put to you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Put your case.  I will allow you to put your

11     case but I was about to question the relevance of this question, but

12     please proceed.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   On 23 June Dragan Elez was killed, 24 years old; Novo Elez, 13

15     years old; Milorad Elez, 59 years old; Ilija Kovac, 46 years old;

16     Milanko Ljubovic, 29 years old; Njegos Savic, 21, from the village of

17     Jamici; and then Dragan Solaja, 19 from Modro Polje; then Milovan Elez

18     was wounded; and the wounded Njegos Savic was ultimately killed by an ax.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I have to intervene again.  How is this relevant to

20     your case, Mr. Karadzic?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I stand accused

22     of things that happened in their area and that had been happening for

23     centuries.  I have been accused, and the picture that was portrayed was

24     that the savage Serbs attacked the tame Muslims for no reason whatsoever.

25     They have been exterminating each other for five centuries.  What

Page 18999

 1     happened in the Second World War happened in this war too and I want to

 2     see here and now who ordered this.  Did events simply stem from one

 3     another or did this have something to do with the authorities of

 4     Republika Srpska?  In my view, this is highly relevant.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, reading out the names and ages of

 6     people who were killed, however sad that is, seems to me to take us

 7     absolutely nowhere.  If what you are really doing is seeking to find out

 8     who ordered it, i.e. who may be responsible as a matter of law, that's

 9     another topic but I haven't heard anything that goes to that issue yet.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Well, this witness is certainly

11     going to deny everything that the Muslims did.  But I wish to remind him

12     of what had happened.  Does he know about this or is he denying it?

13     That's what it's all about.

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know -- actually you mentioned that some

15     people were on a killing spree, whereas Krnojelac and these commanders

16     were saving people from them?

17        A.   Well, no.  I did not put it that way, in that context, that

18     somebody came to save someone.  Guards or policemen came in to the rooms,

19     those who were on regular duty, and they took some people out and then

20     these people simply went missing.  Of course, I haven't seen some people,

21     for example, Mr. Krnojelac.  I did not see him trying to stop this.

22        Q.   When you say -- actually, Mr. Witness, there is this pattern on

23     the basis of which it says this man was taken out and he never reappeared

24     or there has been no trace of him.  Are you trying to say that they were

25     not released, are you trying to say that they were killed?

Page 19000

 1        A.   Yes, exhumations and other analyses proved that later that that

 2     is exactly what happened to the people who were taken out and who then

 3     went missing.

 4        Q.   There is another pattern as well in the statements of all of you.

 5     Somebody is taken out and then a gunshot was heard.  Nobody saw a murder,

 6     a gunshot was heard and your conclusion is that somebody was killed.

 7        A.   Yes, but that happened in front of the building and we could not

 8     see it from our rooms.  De facto we could not see this through the thick

 9     walls that were there.

10        Q.   Thank you.  How far away is the prison from the Drina River?

11        A.   Well, my estimate would be, say, 50 or 80 metres.

12        Q.   How steep are the banks?

13        A.   Opposite the KP Dom, they weren't very steep, and sometimes

14     during the rain, when it would rain, the Drina could even flood the road.

15        Q.   And you say in your statements that something would fall into the

16     Drina and on the basis of that noise, you would conclude that a man had

17     been thrown into the Drina River?

18        A.   But that was from the bridge.  There was a metal bridge called

19     the iron bridge, in the immediate vicinity of the KP Dom.  Of course,

20     that is much higher up.  And of course that is what we heard.  People who

21     were in the rooms above my room.  And we were all closely following what

22     happened after persons were taken out.  From 13 June until 30 June 1992,

23     when people were being taken out, that usually happened during the night.

24     It was a rather large group of 30 to 35 men.

25        Q.   Let us go back to my question.  So you hear a thump or you hear a

Page 19001

 1     sound and your conclusion is that a man was thrown into the river.

 2        A.   Yes.  But if later on people find that person in Gorazde or

 3     Visegrad or further down or last year in the lake of Perucac that is

 4     confirmation of that having happened.  Also, my relative called Jusuf,

 5     who we discussed yesterday, that is how his death was established too.

 6        Q.   On 19 and 20 December, were many dead and wounded Serb civilians

 7     from the area of Josanica brought to the Foca hospital?  Josanica is

 8     about 20 kilometres away from Foca, about 63 corpses of civilians, women,

 9     children, everyone?

10        A.   I really don't know about that.  Never heard of it.  Just tell me

11     what the period is.

12        Q.   December 1992.

13        A.   No, I really don't know about that.

14        Q.   You heard shots around Foca.  You spoke about that.  You heard

15     shots on the hill slopes around Foca.  Do you know who Alija Siljak is?

16        A.   Alija Siljak is a person who was known to the authorities, and

17     I did not see him in Foca before the war or over the past five or ten

18     years.

19        Q.   Do you agree that he was the vice-president of the

20     Ustasha Croatian Party of Rights and he doesn't hide that fact and that

21     he was a member of the had HOS which was an armed formation and that HOS

22     was present in Foca, that it had its camps there for Muslims on the hill

23     slopes?

24        A.   I really don't know and I didn't know that he was a member of the

25     HOS.  I was not aware of the existence of such camps on the hill slopes

Page 19002

 1     around Foca.  The fact is, however, that in Croatia this organisation did

 2     exist.  There was, indeed, HOS in Croatia.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your time is up, the three hours we

 4     allotted originally and I can sense you're coming to an end.  How much do

 5     you need to conclude your cross-examination?

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Some ten minutes or so,

 7     not longer than that, I suppose.

 8        Q.   As a high official in Foca you're saying that you don't know that

 9     there were 2.000 well-armed combatants in Foca and its surroundings and

10     that they had been trained by people who were members of the HOS under

11     the leadership of Alija Siljak.  You're saying that you don't know that

12     there were training camps around Foca and in Tijetista [phoen]?

13        A.   Mr. Karadzic, if there had been such a strong formation of HOS,

14     I'm sure that Foca would not have fallen that fast and the whole

15     territory for that matter.  At the beginning of our discussion today, we

16     said that Foca was -- is the biggest municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

17     in terms of its size.  The president of the Crisis Staff said that the

18     entire territory of the municipality of Foca was conquered on 25 April

19     1992.  And then they said, okay, now we are moving on to Gorazde.

20        Q.   Very well.  Let's then conclude something about the overall

21     negotiations.  You were very adamant when you voiced your opinions about

22     some general developments like my speech at the assembly.  Were you

23     familiar with my negotiations with Izetbegovic and Zulfikarpasic when we

24     discussed the historical Muslim-Serb agreement?  Do you know anything

25     about that?

Page 19003

 1        A.   When was that?  Can you give me the date?

 2        Q.   That was in July and August 1991.  It is a well-published

 3     agreement which was nearly signed, but then Izetbegovic withdrew.

 4        A.   No, no.  The parties were being established at the time.  You

 5     know when the SDS was established.  You know when the SDA was

 6     established.  I don't know anything about this disagreement of yours.

 7     I never heard of it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that in Foca there were 200.000 Muslims

 9     from Bosnia, Sandzak, and Kosovo, and that these people sported a very

10     pronounced Islamic iconography, there was a rally of some 200.000 people

11     at the river mouth?

12        A.   Yes, there was a rally, but I never read in the media that there

13     were 200.000 people, rather I read about 100.000 people, but I was

14     personally surprised when all these people arrived.  As far as I know,

15     there were no appeals launched for people to gather at that rally.

16     Rather, the media had published that the rally would take place, just

17     like they published and announced SDS, SDA and other parties' rallies,

18     they would provide information as to when such rallies would take place.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Just a while ago you told us something about the

20     establishment of the parties.  I'm talking about 1991, when we already

21     had our joint authorities.  Not communist authorities but democratic

22     authorities.  Were you familiar with the negotiations which ended in

23     1992?  Do you know how Foca would have looked like according to the

24     Lisbon agreement?

25        A.   No, I don't know anything about that.

Page 19004

 1        Q.   Thank you very much, witness.  In that case, your general

 2     statements about developments are probably based on what you learned from

 3     the media.  You were not informed about those things by Izetbegovic, you

 4     only read about them in the media?

 5        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I told you yesterday what my primary task had

 6     always been and that was to read the newspapers and I couldn't read all

 7     the newspapers.  It sufficed for me to listen to the main news in the

 8     evening, and the news that I heard in the evening would always be

 9     confirmed on the ground.

10        Q.   You told us that detainees in Kula were killed.  At the hands of

11     who did they die, from whose fire?  Was it sniper fire, machine-gun fire?

12        A.   The detainees were taken from Kula for forcible labour, and --

13     and then they would be seriously wounded and they would die of their

14     wounds or they would die of illness, like, for example, a young man who

15     suffered from stress-related diabetes and died.

16        Q.   Sir, I am asking you about shelling fire that killed the

17     prisoners.  Who opened that fire?

18        A.   Mr. Karadzic, please, let me tell you who would -- who would fire

19     at us, at Kula, on the first floor there were Serbs and on the ground

20     floor there were us, Muslims.  What kind of fire are you talking about?

21        Q.   Did shells fall within the perimeter of Kula?

22        A.   Yes, I, myself, witnessed the fall of one shell.

23        Q.   Is it correct that the detainees volunteered to go to work, that

24     they liked to go to work because they received more food, they received

25     cigarettes and even drinks?

Page 19005

 1        A.   I'm not excluding that individuals did that.  Some people were

 2     simply bored.  They didn't have anything to do.  People were hungry, and

 3     they did not -- they suffered greatly from hunger and, yes, they did go

 4     to work to receive more food.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.  I have

 6     no further questions.  And the document, the original, the instructions

 7     or guidelines for the Red Cross, which is D477, please.  It was published

 8     in the media and you can tell what the date was from the media reports.

 9     We will obtain those excerpts as well.  And also some witnesses confirmed

10     that, that that was in early 1992, at the beginning of the war, Mandic

11     and some other confirmed that.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have re-examination?

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, only on one topic but

14     I would want to put three documents in this context.

15                           Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

16        Q.   Sir, yesterday evening Mr. Karadzic asked you about the Foca

17     Tactical Group and he asked you, and this is on page 104, lines 21 to 25,

18     "What army was it part of?"  And your answer was that the Serbs had an

19     army and following this question was a discussion about when the Army of

20     Republika Srpska came into being, and you put it and said the TO

21     transformed before -- transformed to become the Army of Republika Srpska.

22     Can we please have 65 ter 07278 on the screen?

23             And is it -- as it is coming up, it is an order of the Foca

24     Tactical Group of 7 July 1992, to break through the siege of Gorazde and

25     if you look at paragraph 2, it refers here to the task with a brigade

Page 19006

 1     reinforce the artillery of Foca Tactical Group, shall attack the general

 2     Ustikolina-Gorazde direction and so on and so forth and can we have the

 3     last page, please?  The previous one, please, the previous in the

 4     English, the B/C/S is correct.  And if you look at the stamp here, what

 5     does it say?  Can you read it?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need to zoom in further.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We do have a translation anyway of the

 8     stamp.  It says the stamp says TO of the Serbian Autonomous District of

 9     Herzegovina.

10        Q.   Sir, are you aware of this TO of the Serbian Autonomous District

11     of Herzegovina?

12        A.   We already said that the Territorial Defence -- or actually the

13     Serbian territorial units became the Army of Republika Srpska in May

14     1992.  I really don't know what is this Territorial Defence of

15     Herzegovina.  I don't know what this is about.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask Madam Prosecutor

17     whether it says here the Serbian Municipality of Foca?  The same stamp

18     features those words as well and they have not been translated.  Could

19     she perhaps ask the witness to read the outermost circle of the stamp?

20     Does it say here the Serbian Municipality of Foca?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't see the word Foca

22     anywhere in this stamp.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can it be zoomed in even further?

24             JUDGE KWON:  We collapse the English page.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Look at 6.00.  Does it say

Page 19007

 1     Serbian Municipality of Foca here?  Why has this not been translated?

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think that's not a question for the

 3     witness to answer.  I can only say that I can only look at the English

 4     version and why only part of the stamp is translated, I think that's a

 5     mistake, but it's now clarified and I would like to have this document

 6     admitted.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But we need -- have we confirmation from the witness

 8     that it says Serbian Municipality of Foca?  Can you confirm that, sir?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I don't see that.

10     It's not written here anywhere.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Everybody who can see can see it

12     written at the bottom between 5 and 7 o'clock, the outer most circle.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That can be clarified with our translation unit.

14     Yes, this will be -- this can be admitted.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And can we please

16     have 65 ter 23459 on the screen?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the number for the previous one?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P3354.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  There should be a translation as well, at

20     least I have a translation.  Yes.  Thank you.

21        Q.   And as we see it here, it is a combat report of the Foca Tactical

22     Group to the Herzegovina Corps Command and the Main Staff of the Army of

23     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, 21 July 1992, and

24     Commander Kovac, again, here is signing for this combat report.  He is

25     now reporting, as we can see, to the Herzegovina corps and the

Page 19008

 1     VRS Main Staff.  Any comments from you, witness?

 2        A.   Yes.  The area that is described here is where fighting did take

 3     place.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can this be admitted, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3355, Your Honours.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And one last document and it's also, again,

 8     Foca Tactical Group, 65 ter 23460.  And this is another combat report

 9     dated 31 July 1992, and here we have the Herzegovina Corps reporting to

10     the VRS Main Staff and it refers in paragraph 1 to military operations in

11     the zones of the tactical group Foca and tactical group Kalinovik and it

12     refers here to Trnovo area and Jabuka.  And if we look at paragraph 2, it

13     refers to tactical group Foca suffering ten casualties.

14        Q.   My question to you is:  Were you in the prison aware when the

15     Serb soldiers in Foca suffered casualties?

16        A.   Yes.

17             We felt that because detainees would be taken out, and they would

18     disappear after that.  And the second thing that we noticed was that they

19     tried to reduce the usual quantities of food that we received during

20     those periods, but as I said, that reflected mostly on people being taken

21     out in smaller or larger groups.  Dr. Cedo Dragovic on one occasion told

22     me that we are in grave danger, and I asked him why?  And he said if a

23     Serb should get killed, depending on their military -- on his military

24     rank, three to five Muslims would disappear in turn.  And that's what

25     really happened.

Page 19009

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this document be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3356, Your Honours.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, this concludes the

 5     re-examination.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Now, sir, it concludes your evidence.

 7             On behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank

 8     you for your coming to the Tribunal yet again to give it.

 9             Now you are free to go.  Please have a safe journey back home.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We will rise all together.  We will take a break for

12     an hour and resume at 1.30.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.  If you could take the solemn

18     declaration, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

20             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth

21     and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  KDZ-075

23                           (Witness answered through interpreter)

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated and make yourself comfortable.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 19010

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, I would like to inform you that you will be

 2     testifying here today with the benefit of pseudonym, which is KDZ-075, as

 3     well as image and voice distortion.  This means that there will be no

 4     reference to your real name or information which might reveal your

 5     identity to the public or media.  And also, the audiovisual record of

 6     your testimony, which is broadcast to the public, will have a distorted

 7     image like this, which you will see in front of your monitor, like this.

 8             So we -- and your voice will be distorted as well to ensure that

 9     your identity is protected and the transcript, while available to the

10     public, will always refer to your pseudonym.

11             Do you understand that, sir?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to come closer to

16     the microphone, please?  Thank you.

17                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter 90278 on the screen.

19        Q.   Sir there is going to be a document on the screen in front of

20     you.  If you look at the sheet you'll see your name, your date of birth,

21     and your pseudonym number in this case.  Could you please confirm that

22     that is your name and date of birth?

23        A.   Yes, the name is correct.

24        Q.   And the date of birth?

25   (redacted)

Page 19011

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I tender that for admission under seal,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  That is admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3357, under seal, Your Honours.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Sir, as we discussed, part of your evidence in this case will be

 7     submitted in writing and we first need to deal with the formalities

 8     related to that submission.  You testified as a protected witness in the

 9     Krajisnik trial; is that right?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   You've subsequently had an opportunity to review the audio

12     recordings of your testimony in that case?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   If you were asked today about the matters that you testified to

15     in the Krajisnik trial, would you provide the same information to the

16     Trial Chamber, bearing in mind that even if you couldn't formulate it in

17     exactly the same words, the essence of it would be the same?

18        A.   Yes.  The -- it's more or less the same, yes.  Yes, it would be

19     the same.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter number 22697A which

21     is the witness's Krajisnik testimony.

22             JUDGE KWON:  That is admitted.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And I also tender 65 ter number 22697B which is

24     a public redacted transcript of the evidence.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.  Both will be admitted.

Page 19012

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P3358 under seal and Exhibit P3359

 2     respectively, Your Honours.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With Your Honour's leave, I will now read a

 4     summary of the witness's evidence.

 5             Witness KDZ-075 was born and raised in the Kljuc municipality.

 6     He testified about the check-point set up in the areas around his village

 7     in March 1992 and the restriction of movement of the population.  The

 8     witness testified about the arming of the Serb population in 1991 to

 9     early 1992 and testified about the dismissal of the Muslim police on 25

10     May 1992.

11             The witness testified that at the end of May 1992, the Muslim

12     villagers were told to hand in their weapons.  Bosko Maric from the SDS

13     in Sanica and a local SDA representative were with the police when they

14     drove around the town making the announcement on a megaphone.

15             The villagers were told that the village would be shelled and

16     someone would be killed if the weapons were not handed in.  All of the

17     weapons were then handed over.  After the surrender of weapons soldiers

18     came to the village and instructed the witness and other Muslim villagers

19     in the area to put white sheets outside their houses as a sign of

20     loyalty.

21             A number of men were then made to walk in front of two APCs from

22     village to village and had to tell the inhabitants to hang white sheets

23     outside their houses and the houses were then subsequently searched for

24     weapons.

25             The witness testified about the killing of at least 144 people

Page 19013

 1     in.

 2             Biljani in July 1992 and that is schedule A.7.3.  At around 6

 3     a.m. on 10 July the witness awoke to find his village was surrounded by

 4     local Serb soldiers.  All the men aged between 18 and 60 were ordered to

 5     gather in a nearby field.  Captain Marko Samardzija and Mladjo Tesic were

 6     there with the soldiers.  The men were then taken two by two in a column

 7     to the primary school in Biljani.  As they approached the school the

 8     witness could see a large number of Serb soldiers at the school.  When

 9     they arrived there, the witness saw about ten special policemen.  The

10     witness saw the commander of the police station, Mile Tomic there.  The

11     Muslim men were searched and were then ordered into one of the

12     classrooms.  Around 50 to 70 men were placed in one classroom and their

13     names were written down on a list.  After 10 to 15 minutes, ten men were

14     called out individually and after a few minutes, the witness heard bursts

15     of fire.  Then the remainder of the men were made to leave the classroom

16     in groups of five.  When they groups of five men were taken out, the

17     shelling -- or the shooting intensified.  After 20 to 30 men had left the

18     room, panic arose in the classroom because the men feared they were all

19     going to be killed.

20             The witness was taken outside with four other men.  They had to

21     pass through a gauntlet of special policemen who were lined up from the

22     school to the bus.  He was kicked in the stomach and punched by a person

23     he knew, Dragan Cvijic and hit with batons, sticks, and chains by the

24     other policemen.  When the bus was full of people sitting on the seats

25     and on the floor, the witness heard one man say to another, What shall we

Page 19014

 1     do with the rest?  And one of the chief men sitting near a tree said, We

 2     don't need the rest of them, kill them all.  One bus is enough.

 3             The bus started in the direction of Kljuc but stopped after about

 4     ten metres.  Four men were taken off the bus.  The bus started again but

 5     stopped again 50 metres on.  They were told that they were being moved on

 6     to another bus.  Three or four special-purpose military policemen wearing

 7     camouflage uniform with white belts came on the bus and ordered the

 8     witness and four other men to get off.

 9             The five men were then taken a few metres away near a house.  As

10     they were being taken toward the house, the witness saw the dead bodies

11     of the four men who had been taken from the bus earlier.

12             Realising that they would be killed, the witness and other men

13     tried to run.  The policemen opened fire.  The witness fell to the ground

14     and feigned death.  Bullets hit the ground around him.  He heard the

15     military policemen off those who lay dying around him.  The witness

16     stayed still.  The bus full of men and those guarding it then left.  The

17     witness then heard bursts of fire throughout the whole village.  He

18     remained lying there quite still.  Around 10 minutes later the witness

19     herd soldiers all around him.  There was a cafe in the house and there

20     were people in front of the cafe.

21             Soldiers came back to the house where the witness was lying

22     still.

23             After a while, the soldiers left.

24             For the next two months the witness hid in his village and

25     surrounds before going to the town of Kljuc where he got on a convoy to

Page 19015

 1     Travnik, in September 1992.

 2             That completes the summary of the witness's written evidence.

 3        Q.   Sir, I have a limited number of questions now to expand upon some

 4     matters in relation to your written evidence which is now before the

 5     Court.  At transcript page 4955 to 4956, you testified that check-points

 6     were set up in the areas surrounding your village in March 1992.  Who set

 7     up these check-points?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.  In 1992, check-points were set up and the

 9     then police or rather or the reserve police force was headed by Tomic.

10        Q.   Which ethnicity of people set the check-points up?  You just

11     referred to Mile Tomic.  What ethnicity was he?

12        A.   Mile Tomic was a Serb.  There were also several Muslims at first.

13     Later on, before the month of May, those Muslims were fired, they had to

14     go home, and the check-points were manned by Serbs only from then on.

15     The entire police station was in the hands of the Serbs.

16        Q.   At transcript page 4957, you testified that in April or May you

17     saw military helicopters landing in Serb villages.  What if anything did

18     you hear about JNA arming the civilian population?

19        A.   I personally saw when helicopters landed in the hamlet of

20     Gologlav on two occasions.  As for the arming of the Serbs I heard that

21     from people or the locals of Sanica, who lived in mixed marriages and

22     they personally bragged that the Serb civilians had been distributed

23     weapons.

24        Q.   And the weapons were distributed by the JNA?  Do I understand

25     you?

Page 19016

 1        A.   Well, they did not say who distributed those weapons, but it is

 2     understood that if the helicopter landed in Glogova and Sanica on two

 3     occasions that it was either a JNA helicopter or a helicopter that

 4     belonged to the then police.  I'm not sure actually.

 5        Q.   I want you to now look at a document, if 65 ter number 00912

 6     could be brought on the screen, please.

 7             Sir, this was a document that you were shown the other day.  Are

 8     you familiar with the names, the persons named in this document?

 9        A.   In 80 per cent of the cases.

10        Q.   Do you know what happened to the people, the 38 people, that are

11     listed on this document?  At least of the ones, the 80 per cent that you

12     know?

13        A.   I know that they ended up in Manjaca camp and then they were

14     released sometime in late 1992.

15        Q.   Where were they before they were in the Manjaca camp, do you

16     know?

17        A.   Before that, they were at home.  That was in late May and early

18     June, and as the troops were passing by when we returned, some of those

19     locals were brought to the school.  From there to the elementary school

20     in Kljuc.  And then according to their own words, they ended up in

21     Manjaca.  And then a few months later most of them ended up in the

22     Republic of Croatia, namely in Karlovac.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3360, Your Honours.

Page 19017

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 2        Q.   Sir, I now wish to turn to the events which occurred on 10 July

 3     1992.  This is detailed in your testimony at transcript pages 4965 to

 4     4984 and I'm not going to ask you to recount that day again.  I simply

 5     have a few clarifying questions that I wish to ask.

 6             At transcript page 4967 to 4968, you testified that when you

 7     arrived at the primary school in Biljani you saw hundreds of soldiers

 8     around the school and you testified that you saw Mile Tomic the commander

 9     of the Sanica police station, his deputy Mihic and around ten special

10     policemen and the director of a factory whose name you couldn't remember.

11     Do you recall deputy Mihic's first name?

12        A.   To be honest, before that, he was the owner of a TV repair shop,

13     and we all called him Perica.  He had this TV repair shop and he

14     personally came to my house on several occasions to repair my TV.  At

15     first he was a civilian, and then he became the police commander deputy,

16     Tomic's deputy.  I can't remember his name.

17        Q.   The ten or so special policemen that you saw when you arrived at

18     the school, were they part of the military or the civilian police?

19        A.   They were military policemen.  They had white belts.  And they

20     did not hail from Sanica.  They were from Kljuc which means that I didn't

21     really know them.

22        Q.   At transcript page 4972, you testified that after everyone was

23     put in the school, Mihic started making a list of the names of the men in

24     the classroom.  Did he finish making the list?

25        A.   No, he did not finish making the list.  He was replaced by

Page 19018

 1     another policeman, another policeman called Lazic or Laza, continued

 2     compiling the list and finally finished the list.

 3        Q.   What position did Lazo hold, do you know?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know.  He was a member of the reserve police.

 5        Q.   Could I have 65 ter number 11824 on the screen, please?

 6             That's not the right document, I'm sorry.

 7             I won't be a moment, Your Honour.

 8             18824, I'm sorry.

 9             Sir, this was a document that you were shown the other day.  Do

10     you recognise the names on this list?

11        A.   Yes.  I can recognise all the names.

12        Q.   This is written in the Cyrillic script.  You understand the

13     Cyrillic script?

14        A.   Well, I'm finding it a bit harder to read handwritten letters.  I

15     can read capitals much better.  But yes, I can.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go into private session for a

17     moment?

18             JUDGE KWON:  May the Chamber move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19019

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20        Q.   Are you able to recall the names of those five or six people?

21        A.   Sefer Dzaferagic, Hamid Abdic, Mujo Cajic, Semso Omanovic, and

22     perhaps two other people whose names escape me at the moment.

23        Q.   And what happened to these people on that day, that are named on

24     this list?

25        A.   They were killed in 1992 and their bodies were discovered in

Page 19020

 1     1995.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender that list.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Can I suggest going into private session just

 4     briefly?

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19021











11  Page 19021 redacted. Private session.















Page 19022

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?  We will admit the list of the

 5     names.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3361, Your Honours.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if we could go briefly back into

 8     private session, please?

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Sir at transcript page 4972 to 4973 you testified that when the

23     first ten men were called out of the classroom and immediately after each

24     of the men -- and immediately after each of the men were taken out, you

25     heard bursts of fire.  Are you able to recall the names of these ten men?

Page 19023

 1        A.   Yes.  I know these names.  Do I need to say them?

 2        Q.   If you are able to recall them.

 3        A.   Omer Dervisevic, Smail Abdic.  Smail Abdic.  Ale Cajic.  Domazet,

 4     I did mention Smail.  And then two brothers, Cehic, another Domazet.  And

 5     well, I can't recall all the names at this stage.

 6        Q.   You testified at transcript page 4973 that after these ten men

 7     were called out, the policemen who was guarding the classroom said,

 8     "Don't be afraid, it's the Green Berets who are attacking.  We will calm

 9     them down and drive them away now.  We will deal with that very quickly.

10     There are quite a few of us here."

11             What did you make of this remark?

12        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, we did not even think that there

13     were any Muslim Green Berets because not a single bullet was fired from

14     our side in Biljani.  Besides, most of the people were brought into the

15     school building.  We didn't even know why there was so much shooting

16     initially, and we -- it only dawned on us later on that they were

17     singling out these individuals, taking them and killing them.

18        Q.   The ten men that you mentioned, have you ever seen them again?

19        A.   I've never seen them again.

20        Q.   At transcript page 4975 you testified that when the bus was full,

21     it started to move off and then it stopped, and at a point then four men

22     were taken off the bus.  Are you able to -- are you able to recall the

23     names of the four men who were taken off the bus?

24        A.   I only recall two of them, namely Emir Abdic and -- I am having

25     difficulty now recalling his name though I know the name -- the man, and

Page 19024

 1     I can see his face in my mind.  No, I can't remember.  I know his first

 2     name was Mujo.  I can't remember the last name.

 3        Q.   At transcript page 4976, you testified that you were taken off

 4     the bus with four other men and taken a few metres away to a house, and

 5     that you were subsequently shot at and you fell to the ground.  You

 6     testified at transcript page 4978 that after you were lying still near

 7     the house after about ten minutes you heard the soldiers come to the

 8     front of the cafe and you said in your testimony that you could hear

 9     their conversations.  What, if anything, did you hear them say?

10        A.   Well, I was able to hear quite a bit.  At one point as soldiers

11     were going past the house one of them called to his colleagues and said,

12     "Look here, there is quite a lot of the dead here as well."  And I recall

13     clearly one of them saying, "Well, I've had enough for today.  I can't

14     bear the sight of them any more."  So they returned to the house which

15     was also where the cafe was housed, and we could hear them rummaging

16     around the cafe looking for a drink.  One of them shouted, "Oh, I'd like

17     to set all this on fire."  To which the other responded, "No, it's a

18     shame.  It's too good a house."  And so they spent around 20 minutes in

19     conversation there, and then set out to leave the place.

20        Q.   You testified at transcript page 4984 that after the soldiers had

21     left, you then hid in the area near your village until around the 10th --

22     the middle of September when you moved to the town of Kljuc.  While you

23     were hiding, what if anything did you observe in relation to the

24     destruction of property, both civilian property and sacred sites?

25        A.   Well, on the date of the event itself, the 10th of July, as

Page 19025

 1     I fled the place, I hid in the corn fields nearby.  Quite often I would

 2     hear from the corn fields houses being set on fire, and there were

 3     already a few of them on fire.  I think that quite a few houses burnt

 4     down that day.  As I was moving about the village, I always tried to stay

 5     outside the perimeter of the village in order to be in control.  I saw

 6     that on quite a few occasions houses were set on fire.  In June or late

 7     June, a mosque was mined.  Well, there was an attempt to blow it up,

 8     which was unsuccessful.  And then five or six evenings later, I heard a

 9     very strong explosion.  It was during the night.  And in the morning,

10     I looked toward the place where the mosque once stood, and the minaret

11     was no longer to be seen.

12        Q.   And you said that was in June 1992; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, in June of 1992.  Oh, I'm sorry, I beg your pardon.  It was

14     in June that all these events took place of cleansing up until the 10th

15     of July.  No it was in August.  I'm sorry, it could not have been in

16     June.  I was hiding in the second half of July, and in early August.

17     That's when these things could have happened.

18        Q.   If I could ask you now to look at the last document, and that is

19     65 ter number 11 -- sorry, 18825, sir, this was a document that you

20     perused the other day.  Do you recognise the names on this list?

21        A.   For the most part, yes.

22        Q.   This is a list of 125 persons.

23             MS SUTHERLAND:  Could we go into private session, please?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25                           [Private session]

Page 19026

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Back in open session.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Sir, the names on this list, do you know what happened to them?

17        A.   They were all killed in 1992 except for five or six persons who

18     survived, and I've said so already.  So the list before and this list,

19     together these six people survived.

20        Q.   Sir, what physical or psychological effects, if any, do you

21     suffer as a consequence of what you witnessed and endured in 1992 in the

22     Kljuc municipality?  And if you'd like to go into private session, please

23     advise the Court.

24        A.   Yes, I'd like that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 19027

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sir, I have no further questions.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] May I --?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sir, I have no further questions of you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?  What did you say?

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] So I may start my

20     cross-examination and put the question I wanted to.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   Good afternoon, witness.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24             JUDGE KWON:  As a way of information, sir, if you feel you have

25     to give some information that may reveal your identity, please don't

Page 19028

 1     hesitate to ask us to go into private session.  Do you understand that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, are there any associated

 5     exhibits that are being tendered?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for the reminder.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I seek to tender the

 8     associated exhibits.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  As well as the last one?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  First we will admit that.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 18825 will be Exhibit P3362.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  With respect to one we would have an objection for

15     65 ter number 00897.  Did you already have that flagged?  That's an

16     exhumation report and we didn't think that it was really an indispensable

17     part of the testimony since only a few names were mentioned and we don't

18     think it's a very sound basis to admit an entire exhumation report simply

19     because the witness recognised a few names, all of which were contained

20     in the transcript.  So by reading the transcript you have all of the

21     information you need from that.

22             JUDGE KWON:  You won't have problem if those pages containing

23     those ten names referred to by the witness be admitted?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No, not -- no, we wouldn't have a problem with

25     that.

Page 19029

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, do you have any observation?

 2     Actually, the witness was shown just one page.  We are talking about the

 3     exhumation report but given the position of the -- whether -- given the

 4     position of the Defence and that the -- also in light of the definition

 5     of associated exhibits as being indispensable and inseparable part,

 6     separate from the other parts can be admitted as through bar table

 7     motion, I don't think they form indispensable and inseparable part but

 8     that's -- I'm speaking for myself and from the top of my head.  Do you

 9     have anything to add?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the pages that -- or the page that

11     was shown to the witness, can be admitted.  We can bar table the

12     exhumation report.  I think the exhumation report is an important

13     document.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Is there a real issue, Mr. Robinson?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  I was thinking at some point we were going to have

16     a witness who would testify to the exhumations and then we would have a

17     chance to actually have Dr. Karadzic raise whatever issues he might

18     choose to raise.  I don't know that we have any dispute factually with

19     respect to these victims or this site but it seems difficult to agree to

20     admit an entire exhumation report simply on what material was presented

21     in the Brdjanin case.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can we go into private session,

23     please?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, shall we go into private session?

25                           [Private session]

Page 19030











11  Pages 19030-19032 redacted. Private session.















Page 19033

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Witness, among your last answers was the number of casualties

 5     from your village.  So this is what I'd like to ask you.  I don't want to

 6     mention the name of the village.  Is it correct that in your village

 7     there were about 2.000 Muslims and about 400 to 500 Serbs, 25 per cent

 8     were Serbs, right?

 9        A.   Well, that's the way it was for the most part.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'm saying this to both you and myself.  We have to

11     pause between the questions and answers and the other way around.  So it

12     works both ways.

13             So did you say, then, that 260 persons were killed, not 2006

14     persons as the transcript says?

15        A.   Probably there was some confusion.  260 would be the right

16     number, as far as casualties are concerned.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So could the transcript please be corrected?  Tell

18     us, then, how did these other persons get killed apart from the incident

19     that you spoke of?

20        A.   In Biljani, apart from 10 July, about 50 persons got killed on a

21     few occasions, so all the others, around 200 of them were killed around

22     10 July except about 60 or 70 people were taken away to Kljuc.  Now,

23     since they would not have them either at Manjaca or elsewhere, they took

24     them to Laniste and killed them.  Now that I've started talking about

25     this, the first man in Biljani was killed in the beginning of July.

Page 19034

 1     That's when the first cleansing took place, from the hamlet of Cehici,

 2     Hamdo Cehic was the man who was killed.  After that, after this first

 3     killing took place, these 30 men who ended up in Manjaca were taken away

 4     on that day.  Then, again, in mid-June, there was this other cleansing in

 5     Biljani where about 10 or 15 persons were killed in Biljani, among others

 6     Dzaferagic, Abid, and Tehvid Omanovic, and about 10 or 15 other persons,

 7     I'm not sure.  About ten of them were killed in mid-June.  Actually,

 8     after the 10th, about five or six or ten old men remained in the hamlet

 9     of Botunici after 10 July.  So let's say until 20 July, that's when this

10     happened, these ten old men were taken to a shed, practically they were

11     killed there and torched.  So that was from the end of June until the end

12     of July that these killings took place in Biljani.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Out of all of this that you've told us about, what

14     did you personally see?

15        A.   I personally saw the killing of five persons from the school,

16     below a house.  And then I saw also four men killed in front of me in

17     Biljani.  Then I personally saw the killing of my five friends, my four

18     friends who were taken out with me on that day.  As for the rest,

19     I didn't see any of it except that I was in the corn fields that night

20     and I heard trucks coming and bulldozers and collecting -- and they were

21     collecting people.  As I was lying below that house, I heard the soldier

22     say, well, I have had enough of looking at the dead today.

23             So this collecting of bodies went on late into the night, on

24     seven or eight or ten times I heard them say, "There is some here as

25     well, come here."  There was only a couple of hundred metres away from

Page 19035

 1     me.

 2        Q.   A couple of hundred metres away from you, you heard a car and you

 3     heard their conversation, right?

 4        A.   Yes.  Well, the machine would not be heard then.  Then it would

 5     be heard again.  And that's the way it went until late that night.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In your statements, you said that in June 1991, some

 7     armed troops were freely moving about in that area that you're from.

 8     Tell me, what are these troops that could freely walk around armed and in

 9     uniform in June 1991?

10        A.   I don't know whether I said in June 1992.  Perhaps the transcript

11     has it wrong.  It is June 1992.

12        Q.   1991, 1991.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)  And when columns of hundreds and hundreds of

16     vehicles of the then-JNA, the Yugoslav army, were passing by that cafe,

17     moving from Croatia towards Kljuc and further on, except that part of

18     these troops stayed at Laniste.  I was present when they came, I mean 25

19     men, volunteers, they themselves said that they were volunteers, they

20     were given weapons.  I personally made targets for them.  They called me

21     and I refused and I said that I wouldn't go.

22        Q.   Thank you.  For the sake of clarity, for the sake of the

23     transcript, so that the participants, primarily the Trial Chamber,

24     understand, you said in your statement of 3 June 2000, 1D4254 is the

25     number I have, page 636, paragraph 5, you said this:  Groups of armed

Page 19036

 1     Serbs often came to the cafe and, generally, you speak about this

 2     movement of the Serbs.  Were these Serbs or was this the JNA?

 3        A.   It was only Serbs that came to the cafe wearing JNA uniforms.

 4     The convoys of vehicles I saw were moving towards Laniste.  I was

 5     standing by the road, only 20 or 30 metres away from the road.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So it is not some kind of Serb army but it is ethnic

 7     Serbs who were in the JNA, right?

 8        A.   That's right.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Further on, do you know that in this ambush that we

10     are going to discuss later, among the killed soldiers of the JNA --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek a redaction on page 98, lines 23 and 24.

13     And the -- up to the -- those two sentences, the first two sentences of

14     the answer.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, agreed.  Thank you.  Let us continue,

16     Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

18        Q.   Do you agree, or did you know that in this ambush that your

19     neighbours, Muslims from your municipality organised for the

20     Yugoslav People's Army on the 25th and 27th of May, there were two

21     Albanians among the killed soldiers and they were hanged after they were

22     killed?

23        A.   Yes.  I heard about that.  I did not hear that they were hanged.

24     I heard that they were wounded during the ambush but I didn't realise

25     that they were dead.

Page 19037

 1        Q.   All right.  So when we are talking about Serbs in 1991, we are

 2     talking about the JNA, right?

 3        A.   The incident that you're talking about occurred in 1992.

 4        Q.   Yes, yes.  But in other places, you also said that in 1991 the

 5     JNA used helicopters, landed and armed the Serbs.  Do you know that

 6     already in 1991, Muslims and Croats, as you've confirmed yourself, did

 7     not want to respond to call-up for doing their compulsory military

 8     service, or being called up for the reserve because the war in Croatia

 9     was already under way?

10        A.   That was probably the case.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In some of your statements, you confirmed that you

12     had been called up previously for exercises, for reservists, that you

13     responded to that, that you received the usual compensation for that, but

14     you said that you didn't want to do it in 1991, right?

15        A.   It is true that I responded beforehand but in 1991, I wasn't even

16     called up.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So do you know that the JNA in 1991 had difficulties

18     in manning its troops and there was a war going on in Slovenia and

19     Croatia?

20        A.   Well, I heard about that but to tell the truth I'm not really

21     interested in that kind of thing.

22        Q.   Thank you.  But I have to be interested because you mentioned the

23     landing of helicopters and the arming of Serbs by the JNA.  Do you know

24     that these Serbs were reservists of the JNA, just as you were when you

25     responded and also that they were under the command and control of the

Page 19038

 1     JNA regardless of whether they were there as reservists or whether from

 2     that reserve force they went to Croatia and came back?  Do you know that

 3     these were JNA units?

 4        A.   I find all of that clear but what is not clear to me is that each

 5     and every house could belong to the JNA.  So in fact, weapons were being

 6     distribute from one house to the other.  It's not that everybody was part

 7     of the JNA reserve force.

 8        Q.   Do you know that for many municipalities, military records were

 9     hidden and that the JNA did not have full records so they had to go from

10     house to house to see who wishes to respond to the call-up?

11        A.   I have no information to that effect.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement of 2000, that is 1D24, paragraph 6,

13     you said that in that year, 1991, this was Serb propaganda and that you

14     had opted for the Croats.

15        A.   Well, I don't remember.

16        Q.   This is what you say:  That there were major differences between

17     Banja Luka and Sarajevo TV shows.  Tell us, what were the differences?

18        A.   To tell you the truth, at that time there was thousands of

19     different kinds of information bandied about.  When you hear Banja Luka,

20     you hear contradictory things about these situations.  Inconceivable.

21     Then in Sarajevo, they would say something completely different.  So if

22     you look at it that way, I preferred listening to the Croatian programme

23     because I thought their reporting was more objective than both, because

24     I sort of thought that they were in the middle.

25        Q.   Thank you.  But Banja Luka and Sarajevo are in the same republic,

Page 19039

 1     and Sarajevo TV programmes were in favour of Croats, and Banja Luka

 2     broadcasts were in favour of the Serbs in Croatia; is that right?

 3        A.   Quite honestly I don't know anything about any of this.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Also you said that when the war in Croatia started,

 5     the Muslims and Serbs were ordered to be mobilised, and the Muslims in

 6     our village, you say, refused to take military uniforms and go to

 7     Croatia, right?

 8        A.   That's right.

 9        Q.   Do you agree that the -- that responding to mobilisation is

10     compulsory, according to the law, and that if one refuses to respond to

11     the call-up, you have to be held accountable in any country in the world?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the answer.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   All right, if you're a pacifist you're not a military conscript

15     but if you're a military conscript --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer to the previous

17     question?  The interpreters didn't catch it.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what I said.  I do

19     apologise.  Could you please say that once again.

20             JUDGE KWON:  The question reads like this:

21             [As read] "Do you agree that responding to mobilisation is

22     compulsory according to the law, and that if one refuses to respond to

23     the call-up you have to be held accountable in any country in the world."

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said that I understood that

25     and I said that I know that that is the responsibility of each and every

Page 19040

 1     citizen but if you go out to kill someone, then you can refuse.  That's

 2     what I meant.  I don't want to go to war and that is not what I wish.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  However, you did not receive a decision as a

 5     conscience objector.  You did not get out of the army in a legal way, did

 6     you?

 7        A.   Probably not.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know of anybody in your village or in your

 9     municipality who went to Croatia to help Croats to secede from

10     Yugoslavia?

11        A.   No, I didn't know anybody.

12        Q.   You said that there were Muslims who fought in Croatia while they

13     were performing their regular military service, right?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   And did Croats from your village and from your municipality

16     refuse to join the JNA and still they went to Croatia to volunteer and

17     fight on the Croats' side?

18        A.   I don't know about that.

19        Q.   Then you also mentioned that during the war in Croatia, Muslim

20     men who refused to respond to the call-up had their movement abilities

21     restricted.  Why do you say that in 1991, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, a

22     country with regular authorities, Muslims had restricted movement if they

23     had failed to respond to the call-ups and who was the one who restricted

24     their movements?

25        A.   I don't know who it was.  I'm not really the right person to

Page 19041

 1     answer that but I know when the war started in Croatia, they couldn't

 2     leave because the check-points had already been erected on the borders of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina and those were manned by the former JNA, the former

 4     army members, and they could not go to Croatia.  I really don't know much

 5     about that.  This is too complicated for me.

 6        Q.   All right.  What you have just told us, then, (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        A.   Yes, apparently so.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we go into private session, please?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, briefly.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19042

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   1D4258, page 6 in e-court, is the document in question.  And what

11     you have just told us is that restrictions were introduced after the war

12     broke out in Croatia, and when you say that you meant the restrictions on

13     leaving Bosnia and entering Croatia, right?

14        A.   Yes, I suppose so.

15        Q.   However, there were even bigger restrictions for Serbia when it

16     came to entering Croatia, right?

17        A.   You should know that better than I do.

18        Q.   And you say that in March 1992, the Serb forces set up a few

19     check-points around the village.  First of all, let me ask you who was it

20     who prepared you in Bosnia for these testimonies?

21        A.   I wasn't prepared by anybody.  I'm just here to tell you what I

22     know and to repeat what I've already said.

23        Q.   Did you choose the wording, the collocations, the words?  Did you

24     choose those words, or were they suggested to you by somebody from the

25     Prosecution?

Page 19043

 1        A.   I'm not with you.

 2        Q.   Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what Serbian forces

 3     existed in March 1992?

 4        A.   I don't understand when you say Serb forces.  What I meant was

 5     that, that people already wore uniforms in the then Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 6     and they were all troops of Serb ethnicity, and since we in Biljani were

 7     in the centre of the village, around us in 1992 in March, they set up

 8     some four or five check-points and they set up guards around the village

 9     to have us under control, to have us right before their eyes all the

10     time.  From April on, I did not set foot out of my village.  If I did go

11     anywhere, it was not further than one kilometre from the village which

12     means that my movements were restricted.  I could not go anywhere.

13     I just couldn't leave the village.

14        Q.   So what you're saying is that the JNA, composed primarily of Serb

15     soldiers, set up some check-points in your municipality?  Am I

16     interpreting your words properly?

17        A.   Yes.  It is true.  At the exit from Biljani to -- towards Sanica,

18     on the bridge across the Sanica, they set up a check-point.  Another one

19     at Velagici towards Kljuc, those were the main roads and there were two

20     or three other check-points or guard posts around Biljani.  As I've

21     already told you already the month of March they were in Gologlav and

22     Lunjevo.  Those check-points were already set up there.  That was already

23     in March.

24        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come to that.  Could you please tell us how far

25     away is the Croatian border from your municipality as the crow flies?

Page 19044

 1        A.   I don't know, maybe 100 kilometres if you take the road, and it's

 2     a bigger distance.

 3        Q.   Do you know that sabotage and terrorist units of the Croatian

 4     armies, ZNGs and others, passed through your area at that time?

 5        A.   I've never heard that before.  You're the first one to tell me

 6     that.

 7        Q.   And let's complete this subject.  When you said Serb forces, you

 8     did not mean Serb armed formations of the Bosnian Serbs from the

 9     Republika Srpska, you meant the JNA mostly composed of the Serbian

10     troops?

11        A.   As I said at that time they all wore JNA uniforms which for me

12     meant that they belonged to the Republika Srpska.  That's how

13     I interpreted it at the time.

14        Q.   However, we have to be precise.  When you say Serb forces, please

15     do not hold this against me.  This is my legal problem.  When one refers

16     to Serb forces, then my police that chases up those Serb forces is not

17     called the Serb forces and that's renegades are called Serb forces.

18     You're talking about people of Serbian ethnicity, members of the JNA, in

19     March?

20        A.   Yes, in March.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, did you want to

22     say something about the time?  Do you have a decision on the time?  We

23     can go on working longer, if you give me more time, I'm prepared to work

24     longer.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We will adjourn for today.

Page 19045

 1             Sir, I thought we could conclude your evidence today but things

 2     turned out not to be the case.  So we have to continue on Monday, 9.00.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would appreciate if we

 4     could finish today but if not, Mr. Karadzic, we will finish on Monday.

 5     There are other Mondays before us, so, yes, okay.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, probably you have been told but

 7     you're not supposed to discuss about your testimony with anybody else.

 8     Do you understand that, sir?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please have a nice weekend.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is now adjourned.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of

15                           September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.