Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19351

 1                           Thursday, 22 September 2011

 2                           [The accused entered court]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           [Open session]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Witness.  If you could take the solemn declaration,

 8     please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  KDZ-051

12                           (Witness answered through interpreter)

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

14             Sir, I would like to inform you on behalf of this Chamber that

15     you will be testifying with the benefit of pseudonym, which is KDZ-051,

16     and image distortion.  And this means that there will be no reference to

17     your real name or information that may reveal your identity to the public

18     or media.  The audiovisual record of your testimony, which is broadcast

19     to the public, will have a distorted image like this, which you can see

20     in front of you.

21             Do you follow?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This is to ensure that your identity is

24     protected.  And the transcript, while available to the public, will

25     always refer to your pseudonym.  I hope you are happy with this regime.

Page 19352

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And during the course of your testimony, please

 3     don't hesitate to let us know if you need a break at any moment.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Zec.

 8             MR. ZEC:  I will begin by showing to the witness a pseudonym

 9     sheet.  Can we have in e-court 65 ter 90280 and, please, not to be

10     broadcast.

11                           Examination by Mr. Zec:

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, looking at the monitor in front of you, I would ask

13     you to tell us, with "yes" or "no," whether you see your name.

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender this pseudonym sheet into

16     evidence under seal.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3403 under seal, Your Honours.

19             MR. ZEC:  I would ask that 65 ter 90281 be uploaded in both

20     languages and not to be broadcast.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it correct that you provided statements to the

22     Office of the Prosecutor and you also testified before this Tribunal on

23     31st March and 1st April, 2005, in the case of Momcilo Krajisnik?

24        A.   Yes, it's true.

25        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review an amalgamated statement

Page 19353

 1     which contains portions of your previous testimony and your statements?

 2        A.   Yes.  I've reviewed it.

 3        Q.   Looking at the monitor in front of you, is this the first page of

 4     the amalgamated statement that you reviewed?

 5        A.   Yes, it is the first page.

 6        Q.   Did you make a few minor corrections which were incorporated in

 7     this statement and then signed?

 8        A.   Yes, that's true.

 9        Q.   Do you confirm that the statement is accurate, truthful, and if

10     asked questions about the same subjects here in court, would you provide

11     the same information?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender this amalgamated statement under

14     seal.  Public redacted version of the statement is uploaded in e-court as

15     65 ter 90281A, and I tender it as a public exhibit.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Both will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the unredacted statement will be

18     Exhibit P3404 under seal, and the public redacted version will be P3405.

19             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll read now a brief

20     summary.

21             The witness is a Bosnian Muslim from Rogatica.  The witness knew

22     Rajko Kusic as a friend and colleague for a number of years before the

23     war.  In April 1992, Kusic told the witness that he and the JNA had to

24     defend the Serbian people and Serbian land.  Around 22nd May, 1992, the

25     shelling of Rogatica began.  From a vantage point, the witness observed

Page 19354

 1     that Muslim-populated areas were targeted.  After the shelling,

 2     announcements were made to the Muslim population to surrender to Serb

 3     authorities in the Veljko Vlahovic school.  The witness, his family, and

 4     about 300 other Muslims were forced to go to the school in June 1992.

 5     Many new detainees arrived and the school eventually held about 1100

 6     people.  The witness was detained in the school for three and a half

 7     months.  The school was guarded by Serb soldiers and police.  Detainees

 8     were not provided with sufficient food or water.  Many were subjected to

 9     torture, forced labour, rape, and sexual assaults.  Among the rape and

10     sexual assaults victims were minors.  A number of people were taken

11     outside the school and were never seen again.  Occasionally shots were

12     heard outside the school.  At the school, guards forced detainees to sign

13     papers stating that they had voluntarily joined the Serbian Orthodox

14     religion.  The witness was taken out of the school compound to see

15     Rajko Kusic for interrogation.  Kusic visited the school on about 10 to

16     15 occasions.  During one of these visits, the witness heard Kusic say

17     that he needed to report to Pale on the progress of cleansing of

18     Rogatica.

19             Your Honours, this concludes my summary, and I have a few

20     additional questions.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

22             MR. ZEC:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, during the proofing on Sunday, did I play to you an

24     audio recording of an intercept telephone conversation?

25             Mr. Witness, did you understand my question?

Page 19355

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   So did I play to you an audio recording of a telephone

 3     conversation?

 4        A.   Yes, you did.

 5        Q.   And were you able to recognise voices of the participants?

 6        A.   Yes, I was.

 7        Q.   Who did you recognise them to be?

 8        A.   I recognised the voice of Mr. Radovan Karadzic and

 9     Mr. Sveto Veselinovic, although I'm not absolutely certain about

10     Sveto Veselinovic's voice.

11        Q.   And how did you recognise the voices?

12        A.   Well, I recognised the timbre of the voice, the topic that they

13     were discussing.  And in the case of Sveto Veselinovic, there is a high

14     probability that that is indeed him because in one of the conversations

15     he mentioned Rajko Kusic, so that made me pretty certain that that is

16     him.

17             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, could we have in e-court 65 ter 30254,

18     which is an intercept between Radovan Karadzic and Sveto dated

19     20 September 1991.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, in front of you is a transcript of the audio

21     recording of the intercept that you listened to on Sunday.  At page 3 in

22     English and page 4 in B/C/S, there's a reference to Kusic, and you

23     already told us that based on this content of the conversation you

24     believe it's Rajko Kusic; is it correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19356

 1        Q.   And why do you believe that?

 2        A.   Well, because in the context of their conversation there was

 3     mention made of Rogatica and Kusic.  And knowing that Rajko Kusic at the

 4     time was an organiser and commander of the Chetnik unit at Borike, as it

 5     was referred to by both Serbs and Muslims at the time.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender this intercept to be marked for

 7     identification.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be done.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P3406, Your Honours.

10             MR. ZEC:

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your statement you said that Tomo Batinic was the

12     president of the Municipal Assembly.  Can you clarify: What assembly were

13     you referring to?

14        A.   Tomislav Batinic was the president of the Municipal Assembly of

15     Rogatica, but he was in fact the president of one of its parts, the Serb

16     part of the town of Rogatica.  In other words, Mr. Batinic was the

17     president of the Municipal Assembly of the Serbian Rogatica.

18             MR. ZEC:  Could we have 65 ter 07160.

19             First page of this document is a cover letter sent from the

20     Rogatica Executive Committee to the RS Ministry of Defence providing them

21     with a report on the work of Municipal Assembly from July 1992 to

22     September 1993.

23             Could we have e-court page 8 in English and e-court page 6 in

24     B/C/S.

25        Q.   In paragraph 2 in English, and it's 3 in B/C/S, it says, on

Page 19357

 1     26 December 1991, Tomislav Batinic was elected president of the

 2     Municipal Assembly.  Can you see that?

 3        A.   Yes, I can.

 4        Q.   Is this the same person you talk about in your statement?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Can we please have e-court page 5 in English and

 7     e-court page 4 in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Here it talks about the establishment of the Serb

 9     Municipal Assembly, and if you look bottom of the page as well as next

10     page in B/C/S, which is e-court page 6 and 7 in English, there is a list

11     of deputies of the initial Serb Municipal Assembly, and the first person

12     on the list is Tomislav Batinic.  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now I want you to go through this list of names and indicate

15     persons you knew personally, and please tell us if you would like us to

16     go into private session for that.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel kindly switch off his

18     microphone.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at this point, there is no

20     need to go into private session.

21             MR. ZEC:  Okay.  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On this list I recognise

23     Tomislav Batinic, Predrag Malovic's name, Gordan Vucak, Rajko Kusic,

24     Vlastimir Lelek, Milanko Lelek, Radoje Popovic, Slavko Lubarda,

25     Veljko Bojovic, Milorad Sokolovic, Drago Vukasinovic, Milorad Jagodic,

Page 19358

 1     Vojko Ujic, Boban Jesic, Miroslav Obradovic, and Slobodan Puhalac.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know whether they were members of any

 3     political party?

 4        A.   As far as I know, most of them were, or, rather, I believe that

 5     all of them were members of the SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party.

 6        Q.   And among these people, who did you see visiting the

 7     Veljko Vlahovic school during your detention?

 8        A.   Do you mean from this list?

 9        Q.   Yes, among these people that you -- yes.  And if you want to see

10     the page before, please let us know.

11        A.   Could I please see the previous page once again.  Looking at both

12     sides, both pages, and the names on both pages of this list,

13     Tomislav Batinic came to the Veljko Vlahovic school, Rajko Kusic.

14             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I offer this document in evidence.

15             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3407, Your Honours.

17             MR. ZEC:

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your statement, you said that Rajko Kusic was

19     member of the SDS and you also said that he was your friend before the

20     war.  My question to you is: Do you know where in Rogatica, what part of

21     town or neighbourhood, was he living?

22        A.   The house of Rajko Kusic was on the outskirts of the town, in

23     Karanfil Mahala, in the Karanfil Mahala neighbourhood.

24        Q.   And do you recall the name of the main street that was running

25     through that area?

Page 19359

 1        A.   That was Titova Ulica, which ran from the southern part of the

 2     town all the way north towards the road for Sarajevo.  And on the

 3     left-hand side, this neighbourhood was, and Rajko Kusic's house in it, in

 4     Karanfil Mahala.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Could we have 65 ter 18176.  This is a list of the SDS

 6     Main Board members with addresses and telephone numbers.  And I would

 7     like to have B/C/S last page, and in English second-last page.

 8        Q.   So now, if you look top of the page in B/C/S and in English just

 9     below middle of the page, there is a name of Rajko Kusic, his address,

10     and telephone number.  Can you see that?

11        A.   Yes, I can.

12        Q.   It says here that Rajko Kusic address is Titova Street.  Does

13     this correspond with your memory whether this was home address?

14        A.   Yes, it does.

15             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 18176 into evidence.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Is it Titova or Tita Street?

17             MR. ZEC:  Actually, Your Honour, if you see in English it's

18     already translated as Marsala Tita.  And in B/C/S it just has this, at

19     the end it changes the letter.  Depends how you call it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Robinson?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3408, Your Honours.

25             MR. ZEC:  Now I would like to show a short videoclip.

Page 19360

 1             Could we have 65 ter 45262A.  This is an ITN report about

 2     Rogatica, one year after the fighting started.  I would like to play a

 3     very short portion of it.  And if you can play it when it's ready.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. ZEC:

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, this person we see on this frame, who -- do you know

 7     who the person is?

 8        A.   That is Tomislav Batinic, Tomo, president of the

 9     Municipal Assembly of the Serbian Rogatica.

10        Q.   And Batinic says here: "Serbs and Muslims cannot live together

11     and the Serbs want their own state once for all."

12             Mr. Witness, is this consistent with statements made by SDS

13     officials that you had discussions with including Mr. Batinic?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I offer this into evidence.

16             JUDGE KWON:  The phrase, the words you cited, is the words of

17     this Mr. Batinic or somebody else?

18             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President, Mr. Batinic said these words on the

19     tape, on this videoclip.

20             JUDGE KWON:  But the transcript says, "the Serbian mayor of

21     Rogatica told me that ..."  We didn't hear the translation.

22             MR. ZEC:  So what we have here, narrative, is speaking what mayor

23     of Rogatica told him.  But in background one, if listen to this, can hear

24     really what Batinic says, maybe not the whole, this line or sentence, but

25     portions, yes, definitely.  What we have translated here, what narrator

Page 19361

 1     said, not what Tomislav Batinic said.  But he's quoting Tomislav Batinic.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Is there a way that we reflect the -- what is said

 3     in the transcript?  We didn't have the sound, i.e., English translation.

 4             MR. ZEC:  I also didn't hear sound.  Maybe we can play it once

 5     again.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it that the transcript was offered to the

 7     interpreters.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Actually we didn't offer because one sentence, and they

 9     can read, but I agree with you I also didn't hear the words.  I propose

10     we play again.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot interpret when

12     there are several interpretations going on at the same time.

13             MR. ZEC:  I suggest we play it once more and then it will be

14     clear.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The Serbian original cannot be heard.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So we are not sure who it is that said this phrase.

19             MR. ZEC:  What we can try, Your Honours, is to --

20             JUDGE KWON:  You can ask the witness whether he could hear what

21     Mr. Batinic said.

22             MR. ZEC:  Maybe this clip is not set up in the way that witness

23     can hear that, but what we can do is try to translate each words, who

24     said what, because we have one original B/C/S; then we have, in English,

25     narrator speaking; and then there is this TV in Belgrade, they then

Page 19362

 1     translate what was said in English.  So it's a little bit -- I agree with

 2     you it's a little bit confusing, but we can try to make transcript to

 3     reflect words of each these persons.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             MR. ZEC:  And we can offer to you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we don't object to the

 8     admission.  And it will be for the weight as to who said what.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You do not object to it on the ground of the third

10     party's statement?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I asked the question to Mr. Robinson, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Because this appears to be a contemporaneous

14     statement, we don't.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the journalist was a witness

17     here, so why was this not tendered through him?  We cannot discern what

18     was taken out of context, out of what Mr. Batinic had said.  The

19     journalist was a witness here.  Why wasn't this dealt with through him?

20             JUDGE KWON:  That cannot be a reason to preclude from -- preclude

21     the Prosecution from tendering the document.  We will admit it.

22             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3409.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that there is that

25     constraint, namely that it should be established first who was saying

Page 19363

 1     what.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I take the words that Prosecution will do that

 3     exercise in due course.  Let's proceed.

 4             MR. ZEC:  We will.  Mr. President --

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Witness, this is my final question to you.

 6     I would like you to tell to the Court in your own words how the

 7     experience you survived have impacted you and your close family members.

 8        A.   All of these things that happened from May 1992 and onwards left

 9     a profound effect on me and my family and friends who managed to survive.

10     Rogatica was a small town full of understanding, full of life, with lots

11     of mixed marriages between Muslims and Serbs, between Serbs and Croats,

12     between Muslims and Croats.  Rogatica was a town where one could have a

13     good life, where we all had jobs, children went to school.  There was a

14     great deal of scenic beauty there and we all enjoyed it.  We celebrated

15     Christmas together with the Serbs.  We celebrated Muslim holidays

16     together and Catholic holidays together.  This really all contributed to

17     this wonderful image of a small town in Bosnia which, in May 1992, ground

18     to a halt, in blood at that, by the so-called Serb army, by the Chetniks

19     of Rajko Kusic, who relentlessly fired at the town from the hills around

20     it for months, thus victimising the population.  Most of them were

21     Muslims, because our Serb neighbours had moved out.

22             Sometime in May, Serb children, mothers, the elderly were moved

23     out somewhere.  Later on we found out that they had moved out to Serbia.

24     And then that relentless shelling started, day after day, when children

25     and old people were being killed, houses destroyed.  After three or

Page 19364

 1     perhaps even three and a half months, the Chetnik forces and the forces

 2     of the Serb army entered town, cleansing it, without selecting the means

 3     they used to do so.  Regardless of whether this had to do with children,

 4     the helpless, the ill, they killed them or they --

 5        Q.   I don't -- I apologise.  I don't want you to go -- this is in

 6     your statement.  It's already in evidence.  I want you just to tell us

 7     how this all impacted you and your family.  Very briefly.  But you don't

 8     have to go through all of these details because it's all in your

 9     statement.

10             Can you tell us, just briefly, what -- how it impacted you and

11     your family.

12        A.   I do apologise.  My answer seems to have gone the other way.

13             But it's hard to avoid not saying all of this.  My family went

14     through a terrible experience.  At that time in 1992, my daughter, who

15     was 7 and a half, was raped, several times at that.  My son, who was

16     13 years old, was raped for months.  And that is what is the most painful

17     of all.  They raped me too, but I somehow survived that.  But it's hard

18     in the case of one's children.  I cannot -- I cannot get rid of those

19     images.  I cannot free myself of these thoughts that this was done by my

20     former friends, my neighbours.  I know all of these people who committed

21     these crimes against my family.  And I find that very hard to take.

22             As for all these difficulties that my family had, for all of

23     three and a half months at the school, and for about ten months in this

24     other part of town, all of that left a lasting imprint on my psyche.  I

25     have been under treatment for the past 16 years.  I'm so ill.  And I'm

Page 19365

 1     trying to forget at least part of it, but I don't seem to be able to.

 2     I've never asked my wife whether she had been raped too.  I don't have

 3     the strength to do that.  But I assume I don't have the right to ask that

 4     either.  She was taken out as well, but we never discussed it.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I'm just looking at --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It's appropriate to take a break now.  We will break

 8     for 20 minutes.

 9                           --- Break taken at 9.42 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.23 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Before we continue, Judge Baird will say a few words

12     to the witness.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  First of all, Mr. Witness, are you now composed or

14     do you want us to give you some more time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can continue.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, the Chamber is not unmindful of the distress

17     you are experiencing as you deliver your evidence.  And we want to let

18     you know that if at any time or at any stage of your evidence you think

19     that you might need a little break to compose yourself, do let us know

20     immediately, and we will rise and accommodate you.  This is very

21     important.  If at any stage of your evidence you think you might need

22     some time just to settle yourself, let us know.  We will rise and

23     accommodate you, and it does not matter how often you make that request.

24     All right?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 19366

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before Mr. Karadzic starts his cross-examination, we

 2     need to deal with associated exhibits.

 3             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Your Honour.  There are six associated

 4     exhibits, one of which is already in evidence.  That is 65 ter 07330, now

 5     P03291.  One exhibit should be under seal, 65 ter 07880.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Are there any objections?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  The remaining five items will be

 9     admitted and given number in due course.

10             MR. ZEC:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

13     Excellencies.  Good morning to all.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Please do accept my sympathies and solidarity for the pain you've

18     experienced, and do help us try to shed light on what happened exactly

19     and who did what in Rogatica.

20             Today, on page 8 you said that Kusic lived on the outskirts of

21     Karanfil Mahala.  What was the majority population in Mahala?

22        A.   To the best of my knowledge, the majority population was Serb.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In Rogatica, there were areas that were predominantly

24     Muslim or predominantly Serb, even 100 per cent, but there were these

25     neighbourhoods, the Carsija?

Page 19367

 1        A.   Yes, an integral part of town.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that within the inner city itself there

 3     is not more than one kilometre, I mean the diameter is not more than one

 4     kilometre?

 5        A.   I assume that there is more, not a lot more, perhaps one

 6     kilometre, 200 metres, but roughly that would be it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Today, on page 13, you spoke about how beautiful life

 8     in Rogatica was.  Do we agree that you are speaking about Rogatica at the

 9     time when Rogatica and Bosnia-Herzegovina were in Yugoslavia?

10        A.   In that period, and also after the disintegration of Yugoslavia,

11     we in Rogatica, since Bosnia got the status of a republic, it became

12     independent, we in Rogatica lived a normal life.  We worked, we went out

13     to taverns together.  Actually, in my view, life in Rogatica changed

14     after the disintegration of Yugoslavia in the sense of, well, we got a

15     new name, but basically life in the company where I worked, in the cafes

16     and taverns that I went out in, didn't change much, basically.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So these six weeks from the 6th of April until the

18     22nd of May were as if there wasn't any war going on in Sarajevo, Kupres,

19     et cetera; right?

20        A.   That's how we felt in Rogatica.  I had occasion to sit and talk

21     to my Serb friends about that, and we all hoped for a long time that in

22     Rogatica there would be absolutely no problems.  I, personally, as

23     I talked to people I had that impression, that after all in Rogatica,

24     Visegrad would not happen, or any of the other things that happened in

25     some other places in the beginning, because Rogatica is a small town that

Page 19368

 1     lived a life of its own.  And actually, that's how I felt, at least.  I

 2     had no reason to believe that something major would happen in Rogatica.

 3     I personally trusted my Serb friends a great deal.  And if there would be

 4     any problems whatsoever, or any military interventions, my street, which

 5     is a very small street that is adjacent to a street where the population

 6     was 100 per cent Serb, whereas in my street, it was 100 per cent Muslim,

 7     and we got along very well.

 8             Sometime towards the end of April there were talks and contacts

 9     between us to the effect that even if there were to be any military

10     things going on, the Serbs in Donje Polje, that's the name of the street

11     near the church, they were saying that they would be willing to protect

12     us, from my street.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We are going to get to that.  You also say at one

14     point that they asked you to come and seek shelter with them when there

15     is fighting.

16        A.   Yes, but not when there was fighting.  It was in this peacetime,

17     if there were to be any kind of conflict or any kind of intervention,

18     that we could rely on them, that we could come to Donje Polje and we

19     would be protected.

20        Q.   Thank you.  On page 7 today, you expressed your opinion or,

21     rather, your conviction that most of the members of that - now, was it

22     the Crisis Staff or the Serb Assembly of Rogatica? - were members of the

23     SDS.  Do you remember who the president of the Crisis Staff was of the

24     Serb Municipality of Rogatica?

25        A.   I think it was Sveto Veselinovic who was president of the

Page 19369

 1     Crisis Staff.  Actually, as for that information, I had not received it

 2     officially from anyone because I did not hold any official position in

 3     town.  So it wasn't that SDS or SDA people would be in contact with me.

 4     I was just a normal citizen who tried to the very end to live there.  And

 5     through this co-existence I found out that Sveto Veselinovic was

 6     president of the Crisis Staff of the Serb part of Rogatica.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I think that a witness confirmed here that that was a

 8     different name and that that man had been a communist, that he was not in

 9     the SDS, but all right.  We will deal with that with someone else.

10             You said that elections were held, that the SDA had won, that the

11     Serbs came second, and the third was the SDP.  Do we agree that in the

12     SDP there were both Serbs and Muslims?

13        A.   I cannot give you an answer to that question, frankly speaking,

14     because I'm not aware of the situation.  I don't really know how many

15     people were in that political party.  But I assume, on the basis of the

16     private conversations I had with people in Rogatica, that there were some

17     Serbs there too, specifically a few persons.  I remember that well now.

18     The director of Tehnotrans, for instance, Rade -- basically the last time

19     we walked through Titova Street was when we walked together, only the two

20     of us.  It was Rade Jovicic.  And Rade said to me -- although I never

21     asked him, actually, which party he was in.  I wasn't really interested

22     in that.  But he said, We both made a mistake for not having gone to

23     these political parties, you to that Muslim party and me joined the SDS,

24     in order to prevent the kind of problems that were already happening in

25     Visegrad and Foca and elsewhere.  I can also say that in the SDP there

Page 19370

 1     were Serbs and Muslims, but I don't know what the actual numbers were.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  For the participants, let us explain this.  Do we

 3     agree that the SDP actually succeeded the League of Communists of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina but they just changed their name?

 5        A.   I cannot give you an answer to that question.  Frankly speaking,

 6     I don't know.  I did not know very much about the League of Communists of

 7     Yugoslavia or the SDP or any other political party.  I wasn't interested

 8     in that.  I was a man who was a sportsman, who had practically dedicated

 9     his entire life to sports, not politics in any way.  So for me to say

10     that the SDP was succeeding the League of Communists of Yugoslavia,

11     I really cannot say.  I don't know.  I was not interested in that before,

12     and I'm not interested in that now.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that the president of the

14     Crisis Staff could have been Milorad Sokolovic and that he was not from

15     the SDS?

16        A.   I really cannot say.  I repeat: My knowledge of politics and my

17     political information is very scant.  I really cannot tell you whether

18     Milorad Milo Sokolovic was president of the Crisis Staff.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Perhaps the Trial Chamber and the participants are

20     going to find this to be of interest.  Do we agree that this

21     Milorad Sokolovic is from the same family like Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic, the

22     grand vizier of the Ottoman Empire, perhaps the most successful

23     grand vizier in the Ottoman Empire, and that Mehmed Pasa is from your

24     area?

25        A.   I really don't know.  I have not heard.

Page 19371

 1             JUDGE KWON:  It's difficult to see the point of your question

 2     after having heard the witness's answer that he didn't know

 3     Mr. Sokolovic.

 4             Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I wanted the

 6     Trial Chamber and the participants to learn a bit more about us.  This

 7     Mehmed Pasa built the bridge on the Drina, and it is world renowned.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  You are not giving evidence here today.  Let us

 9     continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm referring to paragraph 7.  It seems that you

13     talked to Mr. Kusic quite a bit when the conflict broke out.  And you say

14     there that Rajko Kusic said to you, Radovan is paying me better.  Are you

15     sure that that is what Kusic said to you, and do you know that our

16     soldiers received a monthly salary of five marks?

17        A.   I don't know about the salaries, how big they were, but that is

18     true, what Rajko said to me.  We were together in the same company, and

19     when he left the company I asked him why he did that, because we were

20     good friends, and he smiled and said, Radovan is paying me better.

21     I didn't ask him anything else about that.  I mean, we did continue

22     talking, and then I asked, How are you going to live now since you're not

23     going to be working in the company?  And he said that he would open a

24     privately owned shop, that he would be involved in trade a bit.

25             I saw Rajko later on in the marketplace.  He was selling --

Page 19372

 1     selling brandy, grape brandy.  I seem to remember that detail very well.

 2     And I walked up to him and we exchanged a few words and I asked him how

 3     business was going on he said, Fine.  And that was that.  That was that

 4     conversation.  And that is my answer to your question in terms of what

 5     Rajko had said.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Then we are not going to deal with this, but do you

 7     actually believe that the entire finance of the SDS was under control and

 8     the SDS did not pay anyone except for five or six employees?

 9        A.   Believe me, I never sought this information and never heard of

10     any such thing.  I wasn't really interested.  Even when I talked to

11     Rajko, I did not have an opportunity of hearing anything.  Quite simply,

12     this was not my line of work, politics, finance, whatever, anything that

13     had to do with that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that in the tensions between the

15     civilian authorities and the military Mr. Kusic sided with the military?

16        A.   Sorry, I did not quite understand your question.  Can you please

17     repeat it.

18        Q.   Did you know that in Republika Srpska there were tensions between

19     the civilian authorities and the army?

20        A.   In Republika Srpska?

21        Q.   Yes, in Republika Srpska.  Between the Serb army and the Serb

22     authorities, that there were misunderstandings and tensions.

23        A.   Which period are you referring to?  It's not clear enough.

24        Q.   All right.  That was later on during the course of the war.

25     Never mind.  You said in the same paragraph that Serbs received severance

Page 19373

 1     pay in order to leave their jobs of their own volition.  Are you

 2     referring to socially owned enterprises or private enterprises?

 3        A.   I'm referring to socially owned companies because I know that

 4     some of my friends in the company where we worked together received the

 5     severance pay and left the company and they probably wanted to go into

 6     private business or something like that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned here who did what.  Do we agree that

 8     government was divided between the Serbs and Muslims on the basis of the

 9     agreement reached between the SDA and the SDS at republican level, and

10     the president of the municipality was Adil Lutvic, a Muslim; the

11     president of the Executive Board was Mile Ujic, a Serb; the chief of the

12     public security station was Ismet Omanovic, a Muslim; the commander of

13     the station was Mladen Vasiljevic, a Serb; the commander of the

14     Territorial Defence, Mehmed Agic, a Muslim.  Is that right?

15        A.   Quite frankly, you know more than I do.  Quite frankly, I was not

16     involved in any of this.  I did not go into that, who was doing what.

17     I always looked at people individually.  Were there more Muslims in the

18     Municipal Assembly or in the police or whatever, I was not interested in

19     that.  Absolutely not.  I always had good relations with all people.  And

20     for me, that didn't really matter, who held which particular position.

21     Perhaps I was disappointed that this or that person held a particular

22     position and in my view he was not really up to it, but now that is my

23     own affair.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You speak about certain things about divisions in the

25     municipality and in the police, and you even say here that this division

Page 19374

 1     in the police was ordered, that is paragraph 9, ordered by

 2     Sveto Veselinovic, Mladen, and Rajko Kusic, and so on.  So I have to ask

 3     you this: Were you familiar with the negotiations that were underway in

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the negotiations aimed at Bosnia's independence and

 5     Serbs accepting that?  Were you aware of the Lisbon Conference, the plans

 6     that were discussed before the conflict broke out and during the war?

 7        A.   No, sir.  As for this scant information that I had, I got it from

 8     people that I took walks with and that I met up with in cafes.  It was

 9     just briefly that I'd hear this information, the news from our town,

10     political news from our town.  And that's how I received this

11     information, for instance, that one day people who were in the police and

12     who were ethnic Serbs had separated and went to Karanfil Mahala and then

13     the other police remained there.  All of this was the information that I

14     had from my fellow citizens there.  It wasn't on the radio or in the

15     newspapers.  I simply did not look at that in any way.

16        Q.   Do you know that these talks about dividing the municipality and

17     dividing the police station into two different police forces followed

18     from the Lisbon Conference and the Cutileiro Plan?  You didn't know that,

19     did you?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 10 you say there was no active army in

22     town but everyone was on the reserve force and that you, too, were

23     summoned to drills before and after the elections.  Before the elections,

24     did you respond to these call-ups, and how long did the drills last?

25        A.   Yes.  I was part of a reserve unit that belonged to our company.

Page 19375

 1     And I believe in those years, after I returned to Rogatica, in those

 2     five, six years, I participated in the roll-call in the compound of the

 3     factory where I worked, and once at the stadium where there was a large

 4     number of us during that roll-call that lasted two or three hours, but we

 5     did not have any activities.  At least I was not part of any activities.

 6        Q.   There was a reserve unit of the JNA that had been established

 7     within your company; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   It was established just in case, in case of war.  Do you know

10     that some other reserve units went to training grounds and training

11     centres, camp training, for several days, for exercises?

12        A.   It was only by chance that I heard that some military exercises

13     had been carried out, some war games, involving only Serb reservists.

14     And if I remember well now, there was a line-up at the sports centre.  We

15     were told that Muslims need not respond to call-ups anymore, those

16     call-ups to the reserve force.

17        Q.   We'll come to that.  But I'm asking before the elections, before

18     the crisis.  Do you remember that some men went for several days to camps

19     and military exercises and came back home with uniforms and some also

20     with weapons?  Is that the case?

21        A.   Yes.  On several occasions, again, unofficially, I would be told

22     by someone that a group of Serbs had armed themselves and brought weapons

23     home.

24        Q.   We'll come to that.  I'm now talking about the time before the

25     elections and before the crisis.  But let's discuss what you just

Page 19376

 1     mentioned.

 2             Are you saying that you were told that Muslims were not needed

 3     anymore, either their officers or their troops?  You say that in

 4     paragraph 10, that they were not needed anymore or their Muslim army.

 5     What did you mean, what kind of Muslim army, Muslim troops?

 6        A.   I meant the Muslim men who were part of the reserve force, that

 7     unit in Rogatica.

 8        Q.   But do we agree that Rogatica was in the area of responsibility

 9     of the 216th JNA Brigade whose command post was in Han Pijesak?

10        A.   I'm not aware of that, or that location.  I was never interested

11     in that sort of thing, and I never heard anything about it.

12        Q.   Did you know that the man number 1 in that brigade,

13     Chief of Staff, until and even after the outbreak of the conflict was

14     Asim Dzambasovic, now a brigadier of the BH Army?

15        A.   I don't know that, Mr. Karadzic.

16        Q.   Do we agree that Asim Dzambasovic has to be a Muslim?

17        A.   I suppose so, by the name and surname.

18        Q.   Now, on this point I'm slightly confused, Witness.  Did you know

19     that the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, after the outbreak of the

20     conflict in Slovenia and Croatia, the Muslim and Croat part of the

21     Presidency recommended to Croats and Muslims not to respond to JNA

22     call-ups either into the reserve force or the mobilisation?

23        A.   I don't know that.

24        Q.   Do you know that from some municipalities, such as Vlasenica,

25     even if reservists did go to Banja Luka they went in an organised way and

Page 19377

 1     brought back Muslims on buses?

 2        A.   No, I don't know that.

 3        Q.   Was it ever announced in the media that the JNA was renouncing on

 4     Muslims, reservists and conscripts?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   When you learned that somebody from the JNA said that, was any

 7     explanation given, why Muslim reservists, officers, and recruits were not

 8     needed in the JNA?

 9        A.   On that day, no explanation was given.  Later on, people talked

10     among themselves, but I was not interested in those stories and I didn't

11     want to get involved at all in any way.  The first vibes I got that

12     somebody was -- something was about to happen in that state of ours came

13     only later, but I never got any information that could constitute an

14     answer to your question.

15        Q.   In paragraph 11, you say that most members of the SDS were seeing

16     people from the JNA and that the JNA had meetings with prominent Chetniks

17     and that Chetniks wielded great influence among the Serbs.  Can we make

18     it clear: What do you understand by "Chetnik"?  Do you mean people who

19     are fond of Chetnik symbols and who call themselves Chetniks, or all

20     Serbs?

21        A.   No, not all Serbs.  Just those who joined those Chetnik

22     detachments, such as Rajko Kusic.  I don't know how all that was

23     organised, nor was I interested, but I know they did organise themselves

24     into a group.  And, of course, not all Serbs in Rogatica joined the

25     Chetniks.

Page 19378

 1        Q.   Did you know that from the beginning until the end, by 20th May,

 2     this detachment commanded by Rajko Kusic was a legal battalion of the

 3     216 Brigade of the JNA and later grew into a brigade of the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   This is the first I hear of it.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In addition to Rajko Kusic, were there any Chetniks,

 7     as you call them?  You mentioned the skull-and-bone symbol and cockades.

 8        A.   When do you mean?  Before the war or after the war started?

 9        Q.   At any time.

10        A.   There were such people, and I specifically saw a couple of men I

11     knew who were wearing those emblems, and I was frightened, to be quite

12     honest.

13        Q.   In paragraph 12, you describe that one day a large number of

14     officers and troops came to the municipality and they had come to collect

15     the weapons that lay in depots for Territorial Defence.  You say that the

16     Muslims resisted, there was shooting, some Muslims were wounded by

17     JNA soldiers, et cetera.

18             Now, let me ask you:  Do you know that the weapons of the

19     Territorial Defence were stored in JNA barracks in 1990?  That's before

20     the elections, and it was during the communist regime.

21        A.   I don't know that.

22        Q.   Do you know that this visit by the JNA to your municipality

23     followed an incident when a small group of JNA officers was told they

24     could not collect documentation from a military department in one

25     locality and then they showed up in larger numbers?

Page 19379

 1        A.   I don't know that.

 2        Q.   Do you know that the Muslim side removed that documentation and

 3     the JNA never received it?

 4        A.   I don't know that.

 5        Q.   Do you know that it is impossible to carry out mobilisation

 6     without that documentation except by going from house to house to see

 7     whether there are any reservists and whether anyone would respond to the

 8     call-up?

 9        A.   I don't know that.

10        Q.   But you were present at this incident and you observed this

11     clash.  Do you know that the JNA was entitled to all military structures

12     including documentation, and it was prevented from exercising its

13     constitutional role?

14        A.   I don't know.  I'm saying that again.  I had absolutely no

15     interest in these things.  At that time I was present, it was purely by

16     chance, because (redacted)  If you think that

17     I wanted to be there, no, it wasn't like that.  I just happened to be

18     there.  And I described the whole thing in my statement.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

20             Yes, Mr. Zec.

21             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, at page 28, at line 22, I ask it to be

22     redacted, the name of the street.  Also reference to family member.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think almost everyone in (redacted)

25     (redacted) so it's not an identifying detail.  But I don't

Page 19380

 1     mind the redaction.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Witness, I'm asking this because that features in your statement,

 4     and the defence has to test the basis of your knowledge and your

 5     position, because maybe it would have been better if they had limited you

 6     only to things that you personally experienced and saw.  But this is also

 7     a good answer, that you noticed these things by chance without knowing

 8     any context or background.

 9        A.   Right.

10        Q.   You know -- you say in paragraph 13 that Serb men were at their

11     military positions outside Rogatica, whereas Serb children and women had

12     already left, leaving in Rogatica only Muslims and a few Serbs who did

13     not see eye to eye with Kusic.  Now, tell me, is it true that before the

14     outbreak of the conflict a large number of both Muslims and Serbs left

15     Rogatica?

16        A.   Yes.  Although, as far as "large" in your sentence is concerned,

17     I don't know because I was there and I could see how many Muslims were

18     left in town when the shelling had already begun.

19             And I can say again, with great certainty, that a large number of

20     Serbs had already been evacuated, whereas some Muslims had been moved out

21     of Rogatica in an organised way, although I don't know who organised it.

22        Q.   You are talking about the time before the conflict?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Tell me, in your assessment or to the best of your knowledge,

25     what were these people running from, both Muslims and Serbs?  What kind

Page 19381

 1     of feeling did they have that made them think it would be better to seek

 2     a safer place?

 3        A.   Well, I suppose that Muslims were afraid, afraid of something

 4     that would not be good.  And as far as I know anything about my Serb

 5     friends who left, they may have known or felt that war was afoot.  In any

 6     case, a large number of my friends moved out, moved to Serbia, with their

 7     families.  Not only Serbia; some moved to Montenegro.

 8        Q.   But would you allow the possibility that they, too, were afraid?

 9        A.   Nobody leaves their home easily.  It must be some kind of fear,

10     fear of something.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You say that on the 22nd of May the conflict broke

12     out and there was shelling.  Do you know and do you agree that there was

13     an incident which contributed to a significant increase in tensions, this

14     was in March, where -- involving some Muslim barricades followed by some

15     Serb barricades?  Do you recall that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Do you remember that on the 23rd of March Muslims erected

18     barricades and then on 24th of March the Serbs did too, and then

19     Colonel Milosevic arrived there and he exerted his influence so that the

20     barricades were removed?

21        A.   Well, I don't know any details, but I do know that both sides

22     erected barricades depending on where they lived.  As for the street

23     where I lived, we did not erect any barricades.  We had coffee together,

24     we socialised, we worked together.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now briefly take a look at P2371 in e-court

Page 19382

 1     to help you refresh your recollection.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, 3271, P3271.  Yes.  Now we have

 3     it.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Please take a look at the date on top.  That's the 24th of March.

 6     And then it goes on to say that on the 23rd, Muslims set up barricades,

 7     that this hampered the operation of the economy and schools, and then on

 8     the 24th of March the Serbs built up their own barricades.  And then

 9     Nermin, from SUP, he was the one who sent this.  Do you know who this man

10     was?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   But you do know who Mile Ujic was?

13        A.   Yes, we went to school together.

14        Q.   Would you please take a look at the addressees of this

15     communication.  It was addressed to the Presidency of the Serbian

16     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And then to the Government of the Socialist Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   To the Ministry of National Defence and the Ministry of the

22     Interior; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If this was not corrected, there was a misinterpretation of -- of

25     the SRBH, where reference was made to the Serbian Republic of

Page 19383

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas it should be Socialist Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, in e-court that was marked

 4     erroneously, but now we see that it says Socialist Republic of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, because it says that Rogatica is in the Socialist

 6     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And we had an abbreviation for this

 7     which was SRBH Presidency.  So can we please have that corrected in the

 8     transcript.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Well, after this incident, this was -- the problem

11     was defused.  There was no conflict as a result.  And there was a lull

12     for another two months, right, until 22 May; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.  At the time that you mention, there were no problems, at

14     least I didn't have any problems.  I went to work regularly.  I didn't

15     see any barricades on either side.  And even if there were any, I didn't

16     go to those areas because I wasn't really interested in that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know that an agreement was reached to

18     have two municipalities and that the Serb local communes were to be under

19     the Serb administration, whereas Muslim communes were to be under Muslim

20     administration, and the municipal building itself was divided so that

21     half of it was used by the Serb Republic -- by the Serb Municipality of

22     Rogatica, and the other one by the Muslim municipality?

23        A.   Well, yes, I know that it did happen.  But what was under whose

24     authority, I don't know, and I didn't even care.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you are an artist of sorts.  I understand that

Page 19384

 1     you now engage in art of sorts.

 2        A.   Well, yes.  (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19385

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, we are in open session.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You say in paragraph 13 that there were killings of Muslims near

19     Rogatica and that this caused panic.  Do you know this personally?  Did

20     you have occasion to see any of those killings?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know, then, that on the 20th of May a Serb policeman was

23     killed in the Serbian municipality -- local commune of Zlatni Do?  He was

24     on the beat, patrolling the area after the agreed separation of the

25     police forces, and his body, they did not want to surrender his body.

Page 19386

 1     They said that they would surrender his body when ten Serb policemen have

 2     been killed.  Did you know of this?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   You say here, in paragraph 14, that your knowledge derived from

 5     stories from people who lived in those villages and who saw a Serb

 6     soldier killing several people, including women.  The people who stated

 7     that are Muslims.  Could you please tell us the name of the village and

 8     of those people so that we can check your story without actually

 9     involving you.

10        A.   Well, I can't really recall this.  I can't recall either the

11     village or the people who told me about this.  I didn't know these

12     people.  As it concerns this incident, what happened was that these

13     people came from the village, from their village, and told these stories.

14     They said that these were Chetniks who killed men, that there was a

15     slaughter there, and that's about it.  That's all I can say about this

16     detail.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Are you talking about the period after the

18     22nd of May or before?

19        A.   Before.  Because before May 22nd I could move freely around town.

20        Q.   You say in paragraph 15 that you heard that a villager, a farmer,

21     had been killed while he was gathering his cattle.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in paragraph 16, you say that an elderly Croatian woman had

24     fled from a shelled village and that she took refuge in your house, where

25     she stayed for a while.  How long did she stay at your place?

Page 19387

 1        A.   Two days and a night.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What village had she come from?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I am from Rogatica, but I absolutely have no idea

 4     what the villages or hamlets around Rogatica were called.  I just know

 5     the place where I had an aunt whom I visited from time to time.  But as

 6     for all the other villages or hamlets, I really didn't know much about

 7     them nor did I have reason to have any knowledge.

 8        Q.   What was the name of this Croatian woman?

 9        A.   I can't really remember.  I just know that her husband's name was

10     Jozo, that she was Croatian.  I believe that her husband was a forest

11     guard or ranger, and that's all I know.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 18 you said that you saw soldiers coming

13     on trucks, parking next to the culture centre, and unloading some crates

14     that you assumed contained weapons, but you did not really see them.

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Now, this new depot, the warehouse where one time -- which was

17     one time a municipal hall or a centre, was that guarded by soldiers?

18        A.   Well, there were some people guarding those premises that I knew,

19     but there were others whom I didn't know.  So that I don't know if they

20     were members of an army or what army or at what time, because there were

21     all kinds of armies there.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, they did this openly outside this community

23     hall; right?  There was nothing covert about it.  They would just come

24     there, unload the trucks, and that's how it happened; right?  We saw this

25     in paragraphs 18 through 21.  If you have your statement before you, you

Page 19388

 1     can take a look.

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Do you need it?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Very well.  "These were military trucks that belonged to the JNA

 6     and trucks owned by my Serb neighbours who came near a church."  You

 7     didn't see what was in them or on them but you concluded that this could

 8     have come -- that that these could have contained weapons.  So did they

 9     use the community hall as a new arms depot?  Is that what you're saying?

10        A.   Well, the only difference being that I didn't call that the

11     community hall.  We always used to call it the hall.  This small building

12     was always referred to as the hall.  Now, this building housed for a

13     while an orphanage right after the Second World War, and then for a while

14     there were some other institutions there.  But in any case I don't know

15     if it was a community hall or whatever else it was.

16        Q.   Well, thank you.  But I've read what you said in paragraph 18.

17     "It parked near a community hall."  That's what I quoted.

18        A.   Well, that's probably how it was.

19        Q.   Would you agree that at this time the JNA was withdrawing from

20     Slovenia and Croatia, that they were withdrawing and pulling out a lot of

21     military equipment from those areas, and that they were withdrawing

22     towards the Yugoslav border?

23        A.   I didn't know that detail, nor did I care.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 23, you say that you did not know of any

25     arming of Muslims in that area.  Does that mean that you didn't know that

Page 19389

 1     there was the Patriotic League there, that there were Green Berets there,

 2     that there was a municipal headquarters under the direct control of

 3     General Sefer Halilovic?

 4        A.   No, not in the context that you put it in.  I'm not aware of

 5     that.  It is true that I knew and heard the words "Green Berets" or

 6     "Chetniks" or "Uzice Corps."  Somebody might have mentioned them, but

 7     I did not know anything about that, nor was I interested in it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  But did you learn later on whether the Muslim side in

 9     Rogatica was organised within the Patriotic League and the Green Berets?

10        A.   [No interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know Hamid Bahto and have you heard of him?

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13             JUDGE KWON:  I take it witness has said no.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was to the question whether I

15     knew Bahto.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it was the previous question.

17             JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continued] ... to the question

18     whether you learned later on whether Muslim side in Rogatica was

19     organised within the Patriotic League and the Green Berets.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I didn't know.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And you didn't even learn about it later?  That was my question.

24        A.   Not in the way you're asking, not in that context.  I heard of

25     those monikers, Patriotic League, Green Berets, and some corps, but

Page 19390

 1     nothing of that added up, because first of all I didn't care about these

 2     things, and, second, I was too small to do anything about it.

 3        Q.   And have you heard of Hamid Bahta [phoen], did you know him?

 4        A.   Never heard of that name.  I know of the surname Bahto because

 5     there are several people with that surname, but I did not know

 6     Hamid Bahta and never heard of him.

 7        Q.   In paragraph 24, you stated that Kusic was based at Borike, that

 8     he was a commander -- the commander of a paramilitary unit, which did not

 9     come to Rogatica but underwent training in smaller villages, and they

10     wore on their caps the skull-and-bone badge and insignia, including SDS

11     letters.  Is there any trace of those insignia?  Are there any

12     photographs?  Have you ever seen any?

13        A.   Never seen any photographs.

14        Q.   Could we ask you that you draw, during the break, what that

15     emblem on the cap looked like?

16        A.   I don't think I could do that.  It was a long time ago.  Such a

17     long time ago that when I -- but I remember seeing my friend Marinko with

18     a cap that had the skull and bone on it and three letters, a smaller S, a

19     bigger D, and again a smaller S.  Perhaps I could make a sketch, but I'm

20     afraid of not getting it right and then my answer would be seen as

21     dubious, as well as your question.

22        Q.   Do you remember, Witness, that the position of the SDS was

23     neither Chetniks nor partisans?  Do you remember that we did not approve

24     of any Chetnik iconography?

25        A.   I'm not aware of that.

Page 19391

 1        Q.   Didn't Kusic himself tell you that his unit belonged to the JNA?

 2        A.   No.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you have more for your cross-examination.

 4     If it is convenient, the Chamber will take a break now.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  But from 110

 6     I came to the 24th paragraph, and I wouldn't like to leave any of them

 7     unclarified.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I would really need

 9     to go to the bathroom.

10             JUDGE KWON:  We will take a break for half an hour and resume at

11     12.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  You have an hour to conclude

15     your cross-examination, after which we will have a break for 40 minutes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   We left off at the point when I said that Rajko Kusic let you

19     know that he and his group belonged to the legitimate JNA army.  You

20     thought they didn't.  However, in paragraph 95, you say that when you

21     asked him what was going on, his facial expression changed and he only

22     told you that he and the JNA had to defend the Serbian people and Serbian

23     lands; right?

24        A.   Yes, that's what he said.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In the next paragraph, you say that Gucevo village

Page 19392

 1     also had its own JNA unit, led by Radomir Bukva and Petar Jesic, so it

 2     was quite clear to you that these were reserve forces of the JNA?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Until the 20th May, 1992, the JNA was a legitimate armed force,

 5     wasn't it?  The only legitimate army in Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

 6        A.   I suppose that's correct.  But I am not very conversant with the

 7     whole system, after the break-up of Yugoslavia, which army was in

 8     Slovenia, which in Croatia, which in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I didn't really

 9     care at the time, nor did I learn anything about who was officially in

10     charge, where the army is concerned.

11        Q.   Did you know that war was going on already on 26th of March in

12     Bosanski Brod, a little later in Bijeljina, 3 April in Kupres, and a bit

13     later in Sarajevo?  Did you know about these theatres of war in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina that spared you for six weeks?  Did you learn about

15     that from the media?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did you know, or perhaps you didn't know and I don't hold it

18     against you, but maybe you knew that the SDA tried to trick us by

19     reneging on the agreements that we had made in order to accept the

20     independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   I didn't know that.

22        Q.   Now, in paragraph 32 and 33, you say, in paragraph 33, that you

23     went to a neighbour's house.  Was that a Muslim neighbour - I'm trying

24     not to mention his name, look at paragraph 33 - and you stayed with him

25     for 20 days?

Page 19393

 1        A.   Yes, that's my neighbour.

 2        Q.   Don't tell the name.

 3        A.   His house was across the road from mine.  He had two floors,

 4     whereas my house was low-standing and already damaged by then.  We moved

 5     to his place and found shelter from the shelling throughout that time.

 6        Q.   You anticipated my next question: What were you hiding from, from

 7     the police or from the shelling, and why was that house safer than yours?

 8     But you've answered.

 9             So that house was more solidly built, and you were hiding not

10     from the police but from the shelling.

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   I'm a little nonplussed that you were able to see not only the

13     place where the shells were fired but also the place where they were

14     landing.  You say, in paragraph 56, that a certain person - and you give

15     us the name and surname - fired a shell which killed a boy.

16        A.   Yes.  I saw that.

17        Q.   What was the distance between the firing place and the landing

18     place?

19        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't really worried about the distance either

20     then or now.  If you're asking me to give you the precise distance,

21     I can't.  How much could it have been, as the crow flies?  Maybe

22     150 metres, maybe 200.  I can't tell exactly.

23        Q.   What kind of shell is fired at that distance?  Is it a mortar

24     shell?

25        A.   I don't know what it's called.  It's a tube attached to

Page 19394

 1     something.  And you must understand I know strictly nothing about

 2     weapons, because I served in the army as a driving instructor and I only

 3     had infantry exercises for a month.  I wasn't interested in weapons at

 4     all.  It was a tube attached to a platform on the ground, and it was not

 5     a very long tube.

 6        Q.   And at 150 metres it killed that boy?

 7        A.   I suppose it was 150 metres.  I'm not claiming it was.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 36, didn't you say that the battles for the town

 9     itself, with the shelling and the conquest of houses one by one, the

10     street fighting, lasted all in all two and a half months?

11        A.   Right.

12        Q.   Do we agree, then, Witness, that it had to involve some

13     resistance, because the whole length of that small town was

14     1.2 kilometres and you could have taken it in two or three hours, not two

15     or three months?

16        A.   May I make my answer a bit more precise, if I take a bit more

17     time.

18             In all the conversations, when we were already at the camp, with

19     my former friends and neighbours, I asked the same question, "Why didn't

20     you come into Rogatica immediately?"  Because in Rogatica, the town

21     itself, there were two and a half thousand, 3.000 people, completely

22     unarmed.  Nobody had a weapon.  There was no shooting from the town.

23     Whereas over two or three months the helpless town was shelled constantly

24     before they finally realised there was no resistance.

25             And I said in my statement that I heard Rajko Kusic had received

Page 19395

 1     criticism from you why Rogatica had still not been taken, and then they

 2     finally came into the town, after so many months of completely

 3     unjustified shelling without any rhyme or reason.

 4        Q.   We'll have to take it up with someone else, because it's so

 5     illogical that such a small town with a main street of 1.2 kilometres

 6     takes two or three months to take.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Please refrain from making statements or comments,

 8     Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask him if it sounds as

10     illogical to him as it does to me.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it was

12     illogical or it was done by design, but the fact is that's the way it was

13     done.  And Rogatica town, which some people needed even later, was

14     completely devastated.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You said two mosques had been destroyed, and I want to ask you if

17     you know that one of them was restored with the help of the

18     Government of Republika Srpska and the government of Rogatica?

19        A.   I know that.

20        Q.   Do we agree that the Catholic church, although there were very

21     few Catholics, was left intact?

22        A.   I agree, because I spent two or three months in the immediate

23     vicinity of that church when military activity was already underway, and

24     the Catholic church was perhaps riddled by a few bullets but not shells.

25        Q.   Do you agree that perhaps you did not have good insight into

Page 19396

 1     combat operations and the war around Rogatica and that's why you think

 2     there was no combat?

 3        A.   When I said there was no combat in Rogatica, I said it

 4     consciously.  And leaving aside the fact that I don't know what was going

 5     on around Rogatica, but in Rogatica itself there was no shooting by

 6     Muslims, and there were no weapons in the hands of those Muslims who

 7     remained.  They remained in the belief that their Serb neighbours would

 8     do them no harm.  I was one of those who stayed in Rogatica.

 9             Both Serbs and Muslims suggested a few times that I should leave,

10     after some other people had already left, but I always said, "I'm staying

11     because I don't think anyone would do me any harm."  In Rogatica there

12     was no military activity, at least where I moved around, including the

13     centre of the town and all these streets like mine, and the adjacent

14     streets.

15        Q.   It's not recorded in the transcript, your answer concerning

16     paragraph 15, that you heard that a farmer who was grazing his cattle was

17     killed.  I asked you: Have you heard about a Serb farmer?  The "Serb" was

18     not recorded.

19        A.   Yes.  I heard that a shepherd was killed, a Serb.  But how, I

20     don't know.

21        Q.   Then you say, in paragraph 39 --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 08207.  I'm not sure the

23     Prosecution tendered this document, although you dealt with it.  Could we

24     see it again in e-court.  I believe it can be broadcast.

25             JUDGE KWON:  It was one of the associated exhibits we admitted.

Page 19397

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  It's now Exhibit P3414, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is possible that it was an

 3     associated exhibit, but I see that it hasn't been shown.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Now, would you please take a look at this regular operational

 6     report, and can you see that it says there that the requests are the same

 7     as the one sent on a daily basis?  Now do you know that brigades

 8     addressed their superior commands and reported daily to their superior

 9     commands on their activities?

10        A.   I don't know about that.

11        Q.   But you commented on this document, in paragraph 39 of your

12     statement, where you also say that you were civilians, there were no

13     weapons there, that the weapons were held by Serbs.

14             Now, please take a look at a couple of important issues here.  In

15     the first paragraph it says that Kusic is reporting to his superior

16     command, the command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  Large numbers of

17     Muslim civilians arrive in town every day, mostly women and children and

18     unarmed people.  The people are finding shelter in the secondary school

19     centre.

20             Is that secondary school centre the Veljko Vlahovic school?

21        A.   What it says in this report, that's one thing.  But what

22     I saw - and to me that is the only truth - is something quite different.

23     According to this, a huge number of civilians -- well, in fact, the

24     civilians did not come to the secondary school centre.  Rather, they were

25     taken there by Chetniks.  They were brought there as war prisoners

Page 19398

 1     because --

 2        Q.   Very well.  Were there two secondary schools in Rogatica or just

 3     one?

 4        A.   There was only one secondary school, but there was an elementary

 5     school, too, that was used to detain civilians as well.

 6        Q.   Please take a look at the next paragraph.  It says the snipers

 7     are firing from a couple of places in town.  This is on the 11th of June.

 8     The enemies -- provoked by opening fire on a column moving in the

 9     direction of Gorazde.  And then you can see that it goes on to say that

10     parts of the brigades are still participating in actions in the town.

11     And then it says we didn't have any losses, whereas the enemy had five

12     soldiers -- five casualties, military casualties.  And then it says the

13     other units of the brigades are holding positions facing the enemy.  And

14     then it goes on to submit requests.  It says how many bullets were

15     expended, and so on.

16             And then do you see that it says people from villages are moving

17     to the town and they're being accommodated at this secondary school

18     centre, snipers are active in the town, there is fighting in the town,

19     there are various operations in town, whereas all units are deployed on

20     various positions and they're exhausted?  Are you saying that in Rogatica

21     town, on the 11th of June, and around Rogatica there weren't any

22     positions where the two opposing armies were facing each other off?

23        A.   I can't really say that.  All I'm saying is that this report does

24     not reflect the truth as it was on that day.  In the sense that I can

25     explain, in any case.  I can't -- as to what -- compared to what I know

Page 19399

 1     about -- in view of where I was, what I experienced and what I saw and

 2     heard.  Now, the 11th of June, that's already the second or third day,

 3     which means -- of my detention at the camp, so I wouldn't have known

 4     anything about this.  And all I could hear is this shelling, merciless

 5     shelling, of the town and the taking of prisoners for interrogation from

 6     the centre.  As for this report, I can't really say anything about it,

 7     nor can I answer your question, because I don't know anything about it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please take a look at

10     1D01113.  1D00013.  1D0113.  Yes, we seem to have the right document.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Now, please take a look at this.  This is a bulletin of daily

13     events put out by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Republika Srpska,

14     and it says: In spite of the agreed cease-fire, Muslim extremists are

15     taking offensive action in some parts of the territory, and so on.  And

16     then it says: In Rogatica itself, from Zivaljevici village, populated

17     exclusively by Muslims, an attack with snipers and mortars was launched

18     against the surrounding Serbian villages.  This is on the 6th of May, or

19     St. George's Day.  Now, would you agree that Zivaljevici is a Muslim

20     village, and did you know of this attack?

21        A.   Well, first of all, I don't know that Zivaljevici is a Muslim

22     village.  And number two, I didn't know anything about this attack.  As

23     I've already said, I didn't know much about the villages or any war or

24     pre-war operations there.  I didn't know much about it, nor was

25     I interested in that topic.

Page 19400

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 3     document and this is in relation to what the witness is saying.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec?

 5             MR. ZEC:  Based on the answer of the witness, I don't see basis.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, could you help us in this regard?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  I think we can try this with another witness,

 8     Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we take a quick look at D572.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Please take a look at the second paragraph, where it says that in

14     the general area of Rogatica there is an organised daily -- there are

15     organised daily attacks by the enemy and they are repelled with arms, but

16     we are having great difficulty at this because our brigade is deployed

17     and -- is deployed and its ranks are thin because of the length of the

18     front line.  Now, did you know that this brigade, the Kusic brigade, was

19     stretched out over a large front line and that it had great difficulty in

20     repelling enemy attacks?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you.  How far are Medjedja and Ustipraca from Rogatica?

23        A.   Ustipraca is about 20 to 25 kilometres away, whereas Medjedja is

24     a bit further off, maybe some 30 kilometres or so, as far as I can

25     recall.

Page 19401

 1        Q.   Do you know which army was employed in Medjedja and Ustipraca at

 2     the time?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   If I tell you that it was the Muslim army and that they were

 5     deployed there for a long time, could you accept that?

 6        A.   No.  I don't know why that would be of any concern to me now and

 7     why I should find it acceptable or not.  I don't know anything about this

 8     report.  I don't know anything about the situation.  And I can't draw any

 9     conclusions based on your guidance, and I cannot accept them.  I think

10     that it's absurd -- it's even absurd to discuss this document with me.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I wouldn't do that, trust me, but the Prosecution

12     actually asked you to comment on combat reports, and they submitted,

13     tendered, combat reports through your testimony.  So I just wanted to

14     examine what you knew about it.

15        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I really would appreciate it if you refrain from

16     offending me.  I was never instructed as to how I should reply to

17     questions or how -- what I should say, and I am here as a human being, as

18     are you.  I bear you no grudges.  I don't hate you.  I came here to tell

19     about the horror that I went through, the three months of shelling while

20     I was in my house.  I went through the hell of the camp and the 17 months

21     of abuse by Serb soldiers and Serb police and Chetnik volunteer forces

22     from Serbia.  So, please, do not burden me and accuse me of being guided

23     or taught or coached by someone as to what I'm going to say.

24        Q.   Thank you.  But I do have to clarify some of the paragraphs of

25     this statement that was drafted by the Prosecution.  And in paragraph 36,

Page 19402

 1     it says that there was no resistance of any kind.  And then you were

 2     shown a report by Mr. Kusic to his commander.

 3             Witness, sir, did you ever see a report that Mr. Kusic sent to

 4     me?

 5        A.   It was never shown to me.  He never showed it to me.  But I

 6     believe that in the Krajisnik case I did -- I was shown some documents.

 7     I did have occasion to see some documents, but I can't really tell now

 8     what they were.  I just know that in a conversation with me, in several

 9     conversations with me, Rajko Kusic said that he had to report to Pale and

10     to you and to the military leadership of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   You served in the army.  Was Kusic a captain of the army at the

12     time?

13        A.   Well, I don't know.  We all had to address him at the camp as

14     "Vojvoda."  What his rank was in the army, I don't know.  Sometime later,

15     maybe in 1993, I learned from some Serb friends that he had the rank of

16     either captain or major.  I'm not sure anymore.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Probably toward the end of the war he had the rank of

18     major.

19             Now, you served in the army.  Can you agree that a captain or a

20     major, a colonel, or even a general, would not send his reports to the

21     president of the state but, rather, to their immediate superior officer,

22     to their immediate superior officer?  Is that the principle that you're

23     familiar with?

24        A.   Well, in the JNA that's how it was.  And what you're saying is

25     quite acceptable.  There was a chain of command.

Page 19403

 1             Now, what it was like in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war,

 2     within the VRS, and in view of all the paramilitary units there, who

 3     commanded whom, that's hard to tell.  And I don't know anything about

 4     that, nor am I interested.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 34 you say that you saw Arkan's units,

 6     that you learned that they were deployed or stationed at Borike, and that

 7     in Mesici you saw the 5th Uzice Corps.  Did you see the Uzice Corps

 8     yourself, and when was this, if that was the case?  You say it was in

 9     mid-July; correct?

10        A.   I said that it was the Uzice Corps.  And from everything that we

11     learnt at the camp, that we could learn at the camp, from my

12     acquaintances who were Serbs, it is possible that it was the Uzice Corps.

13     And from the school building itself I did see columns of military

14     vehicles with troops and weapons.  I saw this myself, as well as did many

15     other people who were at the school.  But also, to answer your question

16     about Arkan's Men, I didn't see them at Borike because I couldn't go

17     there, but I was told by Rajko Kusic himself, literally, that there were

18     300 Arkan's Men, the White Eagles, at Borike.  And his demand was that

19     I should try and ask the people who are being interrogated at the camp to

20     tell the truth because if not then he would order the mobilisation or,

21     rather, an action by those men from Borike.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear that, as it says here, the Serbs were

23     told that they had to seek shelter, to move out and wait for -- until

24     these events were completed, these activities?

25        A.   Well, I heard the shelling went on for a couple of days and then

Page 19404

 1     there was -- there were some military vehicles that had loudspeakers and

 2     they were calling for Muslims to come out of their houses; if they had

 3     weapons, to surrender them; and then to report to the school.  And that

 4     was the information that I learned.  And although I was very scared,

 5     I and a few neighbours of mine finally decided that we should venture out

 6     and go to the main square where the school was and see there for

 7     ourselves what was going on and whether there was any development, any

 8     movement forward.

 9             And there, when I got there, in a very short time over

10     2.000 people, Muslims, who didn't have any weapons, so there was nothing

11     to surrender to anyone, they gathered there.  And then there was an

12     armoured vehicle that arrived there, a self-propelled cannon or

13     something.  It came there, a man came out, he said that we should hand

14     over our weapons, there was this announcement, and we were told that we

15     should report to the security centres at the school building.

16             Now, knowing where the building of the secondary school centre

17     was and knowing what it looked like, I said that we couldn't all go there

18     because it wasn't big enough to hold us all, that there was not enough

19     room for all of us, that we couldn't stay there.  What were we going to

20     eat?  Where were we going to cook our meals?  What toilet facilities were

21     we going to use? because there wasn't enough of that.  And he said that

22     we would just stay there for a couple of days and then be released home.

23             And then we agreed with Zivojin to request from the military --

24     from the Serb military leadership and tell them that we, the 2.000 or so

25     of us who were there, that we were prepared to accept the Serbs moving

Page 19405

 1     into town, for the police going back to their own duties, that the Serb

 2     flag could be hoisted, and we would recognise the Serb Republic if only

 3     they would stop shelling us so that we could continue our normal lives.

 4     And his reaction was that -- was that he just looked at the ground, he

 5     said that he sympathised with us and he would do his best to actually get

 6     that to happen.  But he returned a few moments later, not long after

 7     that, and he said that that was impossible.  He had received an order

 8     that all Muslims should be taken or driven to the secondary school

 9     centre.

10        Q.   You speak about that in paragraph 46 and the next few paragraphs,

11     and you say that all of you were told to go to the secondary school

12     centre for a few days.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   But then you say that, further on, around 300 people were killed.

15     Do you have information that 300 people were killed in that combat in

16     Rogatica?

17        A.   I can't remember exactly what day it was.  I think it was

18     19 June.  Yes, I think it was 19 June.

19        Q.   Your statement says July.

20        A.   I was, at the time, at the secondary school centre, and at one

21     point a soldier came in.  I didn't know him.  He had the Serbian

22     traditional cap and the Chetnik sign on the cap.  And he ganged up on me

23     straight away, saying, It's you I was looking for.  (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19406

 1        (redacted) and Gracanica

 2     and another place we killed 300 people within an hour, including

 3     children.  We didn't care how old the children were.  His eyes were

 4     bloodshot and he was a bit drunk.  And I recognised his voice, and I was

 5     wondering, Is the bloodshed going to continue there in the camp?  And he

 6     didn't stay long.  He left very soon.  So this information about

 7     300 people killed came from Zeljko, that soldier who told me that.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll take care of it.  Are you referring to

10     line 3 and ...

11             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Your Honour.  And a few lines up also the

12     witness mentioned name but it's not in transcript.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think the witness mentioned

15     Gracanica, but I do see "Gracanica" in the transcript.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is that right, Witness?

18             MR. ZEC: [Previous translation continued] ... street.  His

19     neighbourhood.  It was mentioned at page 54, line 3, but that was second

20     time it was mentioned.  One -- first time it's not in the transcript.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You confirmed that you say that the civilians stayed at the high

25     school centre for three and a half months; right?

Page 19407

 1        A.   Roughly that long, yes.

 2        Q.   Then you confirmed that the taking of Rogatica took three months;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Roughly.

 5        Q.   So when the Serb army took Rogatica, then civilians were

 6     released, and some prisoners were sent to Rasadnik; right?

 7        A.   No, that's not right.

 8        Q.   So how was it?

 9        A.   After Rogatica was taken by the Serb army, and while the city was

10     being taken over, many civilians from the high school were transported,

11     several times, taken to certain places, and men were separated from women

12     and children for these transports.  They were taken in a different

13     direction.  Quite a few civilians went missing from the high school

14     centre.  Over night they were taken out for questioning, and later on

15     they did not return.

16             After the military operations in Rogatica were over, the

17     civilians at the high school centre were yet again placed in different

18     locations.  I cannot say who was transported and where and --

19        Q.   Thank you.  Have you heard of Asim Hodzic, an old Muslim general

20     who was from Rogatica?

21        A.   I have heard of him.

22        Q.   Do you know that he was in constant communication with the Serb

23     authorities and that his advice to five villages in the Rogatica area was

24     to hand over their weapons and these villages were safe?

25        A.   I don't know about that.

Page 19408

 1        Q.   Did you say that Tomislav Batinic was a moderate?

 2        A.   Before the war, yes.

 3        Q.   Did you say that during the war, as well, he took humanitarian

 4     aid to a Muslim village and you thought that because of this help given

 5     to the Muslims he was replaced by the SDS?

 6        A.   I don't know about him being dismissed.  But the brother of the

 7     killed soldier who was in the vehicle with Tomo told me everything, well,

 8     not everything, but he told me this story:  Namely, on that day, when

 9     what happened, happened to Tomo, Tomislav Batinic and Radomir Cerovic

10     were driving coffee, sugar, oil, flour to one of the villages in the

11     direction of Sarajevo in order to have that distributed to the Muslim

12     people who had stayed in their village.  That happened two or three

13     times.  And Radomir Cerovic and Tomislav Batinic were cautioned.  That's

14     what the brother told me.  Kusic warned them not to do that again, and if

15     they tried to do it again, things would not be good.  After they took

16     this aid to people for one last time, on their way back they came across

17     a land-mine.  Cerovic was killed and Tomo was injured in the face and

18     lost an eye.

19             Now, was it because of that that he was dismissed or awarded, I

20     don't know.

21        Q.   If I tell you that he was a candidate on the list of the SDS

22     after the war and that he was president of the municipality for as long

23     as he wanted even after the war, what would you say to that?

24        A.   I did hear that after the war he was president of the

25     municipality too.

Page 19409

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know, for example, that the villagers from

 2     Satorovici, Muslims, came to the high school when there would be fighting

 3     somewhere, they went home to bathe and to get food, and they would stop

 4     at the high school centre whenever they needed to do that?

 5        A.   No.  And that is not true.

 6        Q.   All right.  That is what a witness said here, a Muslim.

 7        A.   I'm not interested.  I know that I was there and that that did

 8     not happen.  No one dared leave the high school centre without having one

 9     of the Serb soldiers or paramilitaries take him out.  Also no one could

10     enter either, without Serb soldiers or paramilitaries doing it, that is.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D4297 in e-court.

12             Please take a look at this.  Just a moment, please.

13             Page 2.  Can we have page 2.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is a statement given by another person.  We are not going to

16     tender it.  Let's just see what this person says about this in the second

17     paragraph.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English it's page 2.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   "In the period between June 8 through 24 July," do you see that?

21     "... we had no problems --" let me just find it in Serbian.  Can you find

22     it in Serbian?

23        A.   I cannot find it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 1 in Serbian.

25     Maybe it's page 1 in Serbian.  Here it is, yes, the third paragraph.

Page 19410

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   "In the period between the 8th of June through the 24th of July,

 3     we had no problems as far as I'm concerned, as well as my family.  We

 4     were all together in a classroom.  Every 15 days we were given small

 5     amounts of food.  During that time, I was allowed to go home to get some

 6     food and clothing and the other prisoners were allowed the same, but only

 7     those who had lived in the vicinity of the school."

 8             And so on and so forth.

 9             Do you see that those who were brought in from somewhere else

10     were allowed to go out and that that pertained to other persons, other

11     prisoners, too?

12        A.   No.  No.  This is the one and only case in which this lady had a

13     privilege, under quotation marks, to be able to go to her apartment every

14     now and then.  But never on her own.  Always accompanied by Kovacevic, a

15     Serb soldier who had some kind of close relationship with her, and

16     I never went into that.  It is true that she lived with her family in a

17     room.  And that room was so small.  So small.  Between the classroom and

18     the teacher's room, there was this room where teachers left their

19     teaching aids.  And it was about two metres wide and three metres long,

20     perhaps, and that is where this family was, in that room.  And it is true

21     that every now and then she did get some food from Mr. Kovacevic who was

22     a soldier who took care of her.  For what reason, I don't know because

23     I wasn't interested in that.

24        Q.   Does she not say that this Kovacevic was a colleague of her

25     husband's from work, and doesn't she say that this pertains to other

Page 19411

 1     families as well, not only her?

 2        A.   Only her.  It is for her to say what she said, but I know what I

 3     know.  I was in a room that was close to hers and I was there with my

 4     family, and 40 other persons, in the teachers' room.  That's where we

 5     were staying.  So every day, very often, we would meet in the hall.

 6     Sometimes we would exchange a word or two, but very seldom.  She tried

 7     not to talk to us too much because practically every day she was visited

 8     by this Kovacevic or other soldiers, so I cannot go into any details in

 9     relation to her statement.  I don't think that this pertains to all the

10     families that were there, because other families did not enjoy such a

11     privilege.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 67, did you say that questions were put

13     to you about your ham radio station and about the members of your family

14     who were in the Muslim army?  Was that the basis for your interrogation?

15        A.   I don't know.  One day -- now that you've mentioned it, one day,

16     two soldiers came.  I did not know them.  One of them called out my name,

17     found me, and then he showed me a picture, a big picture, of high school

18     students, a graduation photo, and he asked me what the name of one of

19     these persons was, one of the teachers.  As for these teachers from

20     Rogatica, I didn't know very many of them because I spent a lot of time

21     outside, out of Rogatica.  I returned just on the eve of the war, so I

22     didn't know these soldiers or, rather --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction: -- these teachers.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then he told me to tell the

25     truth.  He took me to the basement then, where I was beaten up.  That

Page 19412

 1     interrogation was carried out by two people from Pancevo, Noka and Kosa.

 2     Those were their nicknames.  I never found out what their names were.

 3     I didn't really express any interest, either.

 4        Q.   What unit were there, the White Eagles, what?

 5        A.   I don't know.  Noka had a small red cap and a camouflage uniform,

 6     and the other one -- actually, he had civilian clothing on too.  I know

 7     that he had trainers, jeans, and a military blouse, and he had a limp.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You say in paragraph 72 that one person was bragging

 9     as to how many persons they had raped; right?

10        A.   That's right.

11        Q.   However, you do not know what he did, you just heard what he

12     said?

13        A.   I said in my statement what he said to me.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we move into closed

16     session just for a minute, please.  Actually, private session.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19413

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   In paragraph 87 did you say that you had not seen any killings in

20     camp, however you saw that they were taking certain people out, and then

21     you would hear gunshots and these people would not come back; is that

22     right?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   With all due respect, Mr. Witness, in practically all testimonies

25     this sentence is contained.  How do you explain that?

Page 19414

 1        A.   I don't know.  I don't have any contact with anyone.  For already

 2     16 years I am basically a man who has to live his own life, and I try to,

 3     with my pictures.  I'm not in contact with anyone and I'm not interested

 4     in anyone.

 5        Q.   You also said that one person said, You don't need to take a

 6     coat, you won't be needing it.  Right?

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   Do you know that that sentence is often repeated in the

 9     testimonies of Muslims?

10        A.   Probably.  Because when that happened, I was directly at the

11     door, when Ljubinac, that soldier, asked Mujo to go with him.  But behind

12     my back there were quite a few inmates, and people probably heard that.

13        Q.   Thank you.  But I'm not speaking about witnesses from Rogatica

14     but from all locations.  The same thing is repeated.  They were taken

15     out, gunshots were heard, they were not returned.  So it seems -- so what

16     do you have in common?  Only the OTP.

17        A.   Sir, please.

18        Q.   All right, all right.  In open court, you spoke about torture and

19     rapes.  Who knew about that?  Where was that happening, and who could see

20     that and know of that?

21        A.   I think that the entire Serb police in Rogatica knew about that.

22     The entire military command knew about that, of the Chetniks, and of the

23     Serb army.  Because, actually, many, many, many of them are participants

24     in that.  That did not have to be discussed and it wasn't discussed,

25     that's my assumption, because everybody did that, or practically

Page 19415

 1     everybody.  Three months is a long time.  Three and a half months are a

 2     very long time.  My greatest pain is that so many friends and

 3     acquaintances of mine unnecessarily tarnished their names.

 4        Q.   You were friends with Mr. Kusic.  Did you tell him what was

 5     happening to you?

 6        A.   I did not have an opportunity to do that because he avoided

 7     contacts with me when this physical mistreatment started.  He avoided

 8     contact with me.  We had contact in the beginning, twice, and once in a

 9     group, in the school.  As for all his other visits, they did not include

10     contacts with me.  I was expecting this.  I actually asked his driver,

11     again, a good friend of mine, former friend, to arrange a meeting with

12     him so that I could say a few words.  However, he never responded.  All

13     of it was -- well, the man didn't want to.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 90, do you say that you were

15     three metres away from him when you heard him saying that he was delayed

16     in his cleansing of Rogatica?

17        A.   Yes, that's what he said to us.  There were about 200 of us in

18     the classroom, because they were preparing some action and then they

19     squeezed us all into a classroom.  I don't know what was being done

20     during that action.  And then he came there and he lectured us briefly,

21     all of us, in relation to our interrogations with the police or the army.

22             I have to say that there were provocations, taunts, from his

23     side, because at one moment he addressed me directly, very briefly, and

24     he said that I should expect that too, that it's possible that my son,

25     who was 13 at the time, would be mobilised and that he would defend

Page 19416

 1     Serbdom.

 2        Q.   Was a single Muslim mobilised?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  It's time to conclude your cross-examination.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask Your Excellency

 5     to notify me in advance of the last ten minutes because then I would move

 6     on to some documents that I had not intended to present.  This is really

 7     too little.  There are 110 paragraphs.  There is too little time.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  That's why the Chamber allowed your Case Manager to

 9     be present at the courtroom.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, the OTP --

11             JUDGE KWON:  You have three minutes.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you inform anyone?  And can you know with

14     certainty that you had informed about -- any one of the Serbs about

15     everything that had happened to you?

16        A.   I did not have an opportunity to inform anyone.  There was one

17     opportunity when Mr. Tomislav Batinic came to pay a visit to the camp.

18     I tried to talk to him on that topic.  He just lowered his head and

19     briefly said to (redacted) it's too late.  You'll all be killed.

20        Q.   Secondly, is it correct that you were considered to be privileged

21     by the Serbs and that many Muslims were jealous of you because of the

22     treatment you enjoyed?

23        A.   I don't know where you get that information from.  When the

24     entire family had been raped for three and a half months, suffering,

25     rape, beatings, if that is a privilege, then whoever gave you this

Page 19417

 1     information, well --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

 3     witness's statement because a microphone was switched on.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have these

 5     statements in e-court.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Your Honour, page 64, line 8, there's a name the

 7     witness mentioned I ask to be redacted.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4296, can we have that, please.

10     I believe that this was admitted as 92 ter, or something was admitted

11     under this name as 92 quater.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Please take a look at this.  In Rogatica --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please don't have this broadcast.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   -- with a privileged status, the following remained to live

17     there.  And then there's a name with a family, and then another name with

18     a family.  And then it says that the first person had a hernia and never

19     left the house (redacted) moved about quite freely.

20             What do you say to that?

21        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I did not have a hernia.  My neighbours from

22     Donje Polje, Fedjo Planincic [phoen], Nedo -- Nedovic Dank [phoen],

23     rather, and Mackenzie - I cannot remember his real name now - beat me up

24     so badly that I could not go out for work obligation.  Instead of me,

25     they took my son, my 13-year-old son.  And he was building sniper nests

Page 19418

 1     in Rogatica, and he was burying corpses in Rogatica.  And he did all the

 2     things he did.  And then finally on that day he was even sexually

 3     mistreated.  And my wife did not move about freely.  My wife was escorted

 4     by Serb soldiers.  She went to do some kind of work.  What it was,

 5     I never wanted to ask her.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, it's page 65, line 6, the name should be

 7     redacted.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Zec.

 9             That was your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more document that

11     corroborates this, please.  The first statement was this statement of

12     Alija Zivakovic [phoen], and I think it's 92 ter.  That's how it was

13     admitted.  Some of the Alija Zivakovic documents were admitted under 92

14     ter.  If not, I would like to have this page admitted.

15             And if I have been given permission to go on, I would like to

16     have 1D4295.  Again, I don't want to have it broadcast.

17             JUDGE KWON:  That will be your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

18             And as you may know well, there is no basis to admit the last

19     statement by Fatima Jasenkovic [phoen].  We will not admit it.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  But let us just see

21     page 5.  Let us see what she says about this.  Let me just put this to

22     the witness.  We don't have to have it admitted.  Let it not be

23     broadcast, though.  514 is the last ERN number.  Can we see the

24     ERN number, please.  I have 08554 so then it's not the right number.

25     Pasic, Miljho; a certain Zijko; Alija Isakovic; Nadelj Isakovic;

Page 19419

 1     Faruk Isakovic; Borovac; and so on, all of those who were loyal to the

 2     Serb authorities and therefore sheltered at the school centre.  And your

 3     name is there, as well as the names of your family members.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Were you accused by the Muslims of having been privileged, of

 6     having enjoyed the favour of the Serb authorities?

 7        A.   No.  Most of these Muslims knew.  A vast majority of them knew.

 8     Because they were citizens of Rogatica, they knew that I was a great

 9     friend of Rajko's.  Perhaps that is what led them to think something, but

10     that's absurd.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I don't have any time left, I

13     have to say for the sake of the transcript that I regret not having more

14     time to shed light on what the witness heard and what he actually saw

15     directly and who knew about all of these things.

16             This was not the right page.  The ERN page I asked for is

17     RR088514.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Then it may be a wrong -- different document.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the name was right.

20     Jasenkovic, Fatima.  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  It's for you to organise your defence.  That's it,

22     Mr. Karadzic.

23             Mr. Zec, do you have any re-examination?

24             MR. ZEC:  Only one brief point.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

Page 19420

 1                           Re-examination by Mr. Zec:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, today, at page 44 of today's transcript,

 3     Dr. Karadzic talked to you that -- that one of the mosques in Rogatica

 4     was rebuilt by the help -- with the help of the RS government.  That's

 5     line 6-8.  And in line 9 of page 44, you said, "I know that."

 6             I want to know: Do you know the date when the mosque was rebuilt,

 7     or year, or anything?

 8        A.   I don't know the date and year when it was rebuilt, but I'm not

 9     100 per cent sure that this was done by the Government of

10     Republika Srpska.  As I've already said in my direct answer to this, I

11     knew about it.

12        Q.   In your understanding was the mosque rebuilt during the war or

13     after the war?

14        A.   Considerably after the war.

15             MR. ZEC:  Nothing further.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Witness, sir.  That concludes your

17     evidence.  On behalf of my colleagues, this Chamber, as well as the

18     Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to

19     The Hague to give it, notwithstanding all the difficult circumstances.

20     Now you are free to go.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will take a break for 40 minutes.  But

23     before that there are two matters to deal with briefly.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, with respect to your request for leave

Page 19421

 1     to reply in relation to videolink testimony: Given that the Chamber is

 2     well aware of the jurisprudence on that issue, the Chamber won't need the

 3     reply from the Prosecution.

 4             And finally, Mr. Robinson, in relation to your binding order

 5     motion with respect to Bosnia-Herzegovina dated 31st of August, 2009,

 6     it's still pending before the Chamber.  My understanding is that you had

 7     an interview with General Delic, Sead Delic, already, and so the Chamber

 8     would like to know if there is any further update on Brigadier Brdjanovic

 9     and also whether the interview that you conducted with General Delic will

10     have any impact on your binding order motion.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  The interview with

12     General Delic concludes the obligation of the Government of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina with respect to that binding order motion.  With

14     respect to Brigadier Brdjanovic, I have an appointment to meet him on

15     Sunday, so I can advise the Chamber.  If I'm able to meet him and

16     complete that interview, then we can withdraw that binding order in its

17     entirety.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, can I just raise one

20     other matter.  And this is that we would ask that there be a

21     reclassification of a closed -- of a private session testimony that

22     occurred on the 19th of September during the testimony of KDZ-075.  We

23     ask that page 19055, line 23, to page 19058, line 19, be reclassified as

24     public.  And the Prosecution has advised us they don't have any objection

25     to that.

Page 19422

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be done.  That's granted.

 2             We will have a break for 40 minutes.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I always forget to mention: The audio/video part

 5     will be also published as well.

 6             We'll resume at ten to 2.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           [Closed session]

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Page 19423











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22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.02 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of

24                           September, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.