Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19614

 1                           Friday, 30 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Sivac.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8                           WITNESS:  NUSRET SIVAC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm very pleased to be able to start with your

11     evidence today.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, good morning,

14     Excellencies, good morning.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Sivac.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   I hope that in e-court we have your book.  On page 98 you say

19     that Aziz Aliskovic and his group were to surrender before 1400 hours.

20     They had killed those lads in the car, those reservists and then you

21     continue to say, "I informed them up there at Hambarine to be prepared

22     and to remove the people."

23        A.   Just a moment.  Precisely because of the fact that you are

24     misinterpreting some parts of my book, I have the book before me.  What

25     did you say, what page was that?  98?  Where does it say that?

Page 19615

 1        Q.   You say this, or rather somebody from the Muslim side is

 2     explaining what had been said and what the Serbs had requested.  The

 3     Serbs requested something and then people at Hambarine were informed to

 4     be prepared.  Who said that?

 5        A.   Dr. Edo Sadikovic when Mirza Mujadzic and the other from the

 6     leadership of the SDA and the HDZ after the takeover of power fled and

 7     disappeared from the political scene, the two of them, as respectable and

 8     reputable citizens tried to talk to somebody from the Serbian leadership

 9     and to delay the start of the shelling of Hambarine.  They wanted to

10     prevent innocent casualties among the civilian population.

11        Q.   You've mentioned Dr. Eso.  Is it correct that Dr. Eso authored a

12     text in Kozarski Vjesnik that irritated the Serbs and that that was being

13     done in those critical days in 1992, you said that you liked them but I'm

14     asking you whether those texts were found to be irritating by the Serbs.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, before we go much further with this

17     process which just follows on to what was happening yesterday, I wonder

18     if we can, since Dr. Karadzic says the book has been uploaded in e-court

19     have the book called up, the relevant page called up and Dr. Karadzic can

20     actually show this Court exactly what passage he's referring to rather

21     than deal with paraphrasing, which -- and allegations of what the witness

22     actually said which no one is in a position to judge without seeing the

23     actual page in front of them.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  I quite agree.  What's the

25     e-court number?

Page 19616

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04500.  1D04500.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   This is your book, isn't it?

 4        A.   Yes, this is the first edition of my book.

 5        Q.   Let's look at page 62.  The war has already started in Bosnia --

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Sorry, Your Honours, just one more thing.  I see

 7     that there is now a document in English on the screen in front of you,

 8     and just to avoid any misunderstanding about the nature of this document,

 9     that English document is not a translation, it doesn't purport to be a

10     translation.  As far as we are able to see, it's some kind of topical

11     summary of some 58 pages of this book of more than 250 pages that may be

12     more of a guide to what the book might contain, but not having the

13     translation, I'm not prepared to say to Your Honours that this summary is

14     even accurate.  So I just want to make that abundantly clear.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, can you help us in this regard?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that these are excerpts,

17     translated into English, but not in the right order.  You can see that

18     the book is actually a diary, and the translation was done by the

19     Prosecution.  They have selected the parts to be translated, and I don't

20     think that they paraphrased.  I believe that the text was translated word

21     for word.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I just said that it was not.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But I see the ERN number.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, if I can be helpful so the Court can

Page 19617

 1     see it very quickly, if you look at the last passage on the first page it

 2     says the author describes, the author comments on.  You can see on its

 3     face, it doesn't pretend to be a translation.  It's sort of a topical

 4     guide.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  My question is, who prepared this?  Mr. Karadzic?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, it is an OTP product which is another

 7     reason why we can say with some confidence it's not a translation.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So you concede that it is prepared by the OTP.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, but it is not a translation of what the witness

10     has written.  It's a guide to what the contents may be.  In other words,

11     generally speaking, what topics or issues are addressed at particular

12     areas so ...

13             I think Ms. Edgerton's point was that - and I hope it's been

14     useful - was that the Court not be misled into thinking that this is a

15     translation of what the witness's words are in the book.  Instead, it's a

16     description by someone who reviewed the book about what that person

17     considered some of the passages contained.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That's helpful.  We can proceed.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, if the witness is here, I

20     believe that he can confirm for us or deny what his book says.  We are

21     really not responsible for this English version.

22             I would like to call up page 62 in the book.  In e-court it has

23     to be a different page.  It's 59 in e-court.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Here you say that Milosevic is shooting at Sarajevo according to

Page 19618

 1     Kozarski Vjesnik.  There is war going on in Sarajevo but Kozarski Vjesnik

 2     is a Muslim and Serbian paper.

 3        A.   Yes, the same texts were published by Kozarski Vjesnik at the

 4     time.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And now can we look at page 67 in the book?  64 in

 6     e-court.  Is it true that you observed some renegade gangs in Prijedor

 7     and that you wrote about that?

 8        A.   Yes.  Those were individuals with criminal past who had arrived

 9     from Serbia and ended up in Prijedor.  They made most of the time of lack

10     of law and order to instigate incidents, to enter Muslim houses and to

11     loot.

12        Q.   Could you please read the first sentence in the second paragraph

13     from the top of the page?

14        A.   Me?

15        Q.   Yes, you, if you can, just the first sentence.

16        A.   "Different groups of thugs started" --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note we do not have that on

18     the screen and the witness is reading too fast.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters were not able to follow.  What

20     paragraph did you refer to?

21             And when you -- when reading, Mr. Sivac, could you slow down for

22     the benefits of the interpreters?  Do we have that passage in front of

23     us?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian, it is the second

25     paragraph on the page starting from the top of the page.

Page 19619

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Well, we don't have to go on.  However, you don't say here that

 3     they were from Serbia but just that they were gangs and that nobody could

 4     do anything to them.

 5        A.   At that time, everybody knew where they had come from.  It was

 6     self-understood.

 7        Q.   You go on to say that a lad beat up an officer, he was remanded

 8     in custody by the army and then released very soon thereafter, and then

 9     he went and joined Slavko Ecimovic in the forest; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, I wrote about that event.

11        Q.   And you wonder how come that the military had become so

12     humanitarian in nature and that they didn't keep him for a long time?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That young man was well known to all

14     security services.  He had a criminal record.  He had just arrived from

15     one --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  What page are we referring to?  As far as I can

18     see it's not on the pages on the screen in front of us.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The book is not evidence.  And then we don't have

20     English page.  Does it have any point of having a specific page?  That's

21     why I let him go.  And the witness confirmed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Keep in mind this book is not in evidence.  Let's

24     continue.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we can tender the pages from

Page 19620

 1     which we quoted and which the witness confirmed but I don't have the time

 2     to quote but if the witness confirms --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If you are minded to tender the pages you showed to

 4     the witness, then you have to upload the correct page so that we can

 5     follow.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we then look at

 7     page 78 in the book?  I believe it's 74 in e-court.  Just bear with me.

 8     75 in e-court.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You say that you are standing on the banks of the Sana with your

11     cousin or nephew, and you ask him, "Did you return your rifle and uniform

12     you were a member of the reserve police?"  I asked Adnan.

13             "I didn't and I won't because I will still need it."

14             Is that what he told you?

15        A.   Yes, more or less.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the page be admitted can the

18     book be given an exhibit number and can the page be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  What page?  Do you mean page 78?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  75 in e-court.

21             JUDGE KWON:  That will be marked for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be assigned Exhibit D1742 marked for

23     identification.  Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And then it says a lull before the storm.  And there you describe

Page 19621

 1     how you gather spontaneously in various pubs and bars and you discuss the

 2     situation, you and your friends; right?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  That's on the same page.  So it can stay as is.

 5             And now can we look at page 80?  77 in e-court.

 6             In May you spoke to Dr. Eso and he says:

 7             [As read] "Our party leaders who instigated people the most fled

 8     and left the people in the cold, and the only person who stayed behind is

 9     the president of the municipality."

10             Is that what you said?

11        A.   Yes, more or less.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this page be admitted and can

13     we go to the next one?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That can be added.  Page 80 in hard

15     copy.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just bear with me for a moment.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Dr. Eso smiled and said that he had visited Slavko at Kurevo.  He

19     found about 100 lads there.  They are not well-armed.  They need weapons

20     and food.

21             This is still on page 81, the fourth passage from the top right.

22             He informed you that he had visited Slavko at Kurevo, Slavko had

23     about 100 lads, he needed weapons, food and tobacco.  He would go there

24     again and he asked you to prepare things for him.  Is that what he said?

25        A.   Yes, more or less.

Page 19622

 1        Q.   So Dr. Eso is not only a charmer but he is also Slavko Ecimovic's

 2     logistics man?

 3        A.   He was Slavko Ecimovic's friend and it says on one of the pages

 4     of my book that he was the one who tried to dissuade Slavko from

 5     embarking on any adventures.

 6        Q.   However, it says here that you should prepare food and weapons,

 7     that he would go and visit Slavko at Kurevo again.  What is Kurevo?

 8        A.   Kurevo is in the hinterland of Hambarine, in Prijedor, but Eso

 9     said it in very general terms, not only to me, there were a few other

10     friends of mine together with me there and he -- when he said, "You

11     should ...," he meant all of us, plural.

12        Q.   So he says you have to prepare something to -- for me to take to

13     them.  He -- they are up there, they decided to fight, please prepare

14     something.  Is that what it says here?

15        A.   Yes, but that was taken out of the context.  Slavko Ecimovic did

16     not intend to fight in Prijedor.  They intended to join the

17     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to try and break through to the Bihac

18     territory and there they were going to join the

19     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did they not attack Prijedor after that instead of

21     going to Bihac?  Am I right in thinking that?

22        A.   Mr. Karadzic, in my statement or rather on day 1 of my testimony

23     I told you that there were a lot of contradictions there.  You gave me a

24     list of those potential or possible attackers who had attacked this town

25     of Prijedor.  Among them are the names of some individuals who most

Page 19623

 1     probably according to what I know and especially remember after such a

 2     long time, simply convinced Slavko Ecimovic to embark on that adventure,

 3     but the underlining idea was to break up the group.

 4        Q.   So those Muslims were working on behalf of the Serbs, they

 5     trapped Slavko?

 6        A.   Yes, and last time when we spoke, you told us that you received

 7     information on the same day as to what the Muslims had been up to.  The

 8     same situation prevailed among those who were in Slavko's group.  There

 9     were people there who from day 1 participated in fighting in Croatia in

10     the most elite Serb units there.  And they were even decorated as good

11     fighters.  And now look at the excerpt:  They went to Slavko and they

12     convinced him that they should go and liberate Prijedor in other words,

13     those Serb heroes were out there, apparently, to fight against the Serbs.

14        Q.   The Serb heroes of Muslim faith; right?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  If you want me to, I can mention their

16     names, but I don't think it's necessary.  You will find their names on

17     the list that the security services of Prijedor submitted to the OTP.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And then grateful Serbs reported all those men of

19     theirs in Slavko's unit to the OTP?

20        A.   Well, this is the biggest farce in all of that.  I mean even you

21     are coming to the fact that something is not quite right here.  These

22     people were freed in some sort of staged procedure.  They survived but

23     they were not in the camp.  They went through all of these traumas that

24     they went through, and now are in some other countries.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Well, some other witnesses will confirm that.

Page 19624

 1             Mr. Sivac, on page 90, I think this is page 87 in the e-court.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  I wonder if we could remove the English version

 3     from the right-hand side of the page so we could just have the whole

 4     B/C/S page displayed.  Thanks.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Could you please look to check if it's correct that Croat

 7     Branko Bijekic, the commander of the Ljubija police station was replaced

 8     by Aliskovic and the others because he was not in favour of the fighting?

 9     Can you look at what it says here, how to install Serbian power and so on

10     and so forth and that is thus I will tell you which paragraph that is,

11     that is the last paragraph, the biggest paragraph, the duties of the

12     commander here were performed by Croat Branko Bijekic, he was probably

13     their man who tried to implement what the SDS leaders and security

14     services of Prijedor asked him to do.

15             What was it that they asked him to do, what did the SDS ask him

16     to do?  Not to fight?

17        A.   Not the SDS.  Would you like me to read it so that the

18     interpreters can -- but I think that the Trial Chamber has an English

19     version.  You can see that I do not mention fighting anywhere.  I am only

20     saying that the Serbian authorities in Prijedor were prevented --

21        Q.   Approach to Ljubija and Kozarac and Muslim concentrations?

22        A.   No, no.  It's not like that.  You're paraphrasing again.

23        Q.   All right.  You tell us how it was?

24        A.   Branko Bijekic was the police commander who completely listened

25     to the Serbian authorities, which had come to Prijedor by force and he

Page 19625

 1     tried to join that police station too, to the Serbian police station in

 2     Prijedor.  However, a group headed by Aziz Aliskovic opposed that, also

 3     Fikret Sarajlic and others, and they simply forbade Branko Bijekic from

 4     coming to the Ljubija police station, and as the people of Kozarac, they

 5     accepted that the police station in Ljubija bear the insignia or markings

 6     of internationally recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   Is that the same Aliskovic who was charged with the murder or the

 8     killing of a soldier in Hambarine?  There are two Aziz Aliskovics or is

 9     this the same person?

10        A.   This is the same person.  However, on 22 May the Ljubija police

11     station was taken over by the new Serbian authorities, and all the

12     policemen who were Muslims and Croats were driven away from their posts.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And were they authorised to replace him or was this a

14     lynch?

15        A.   Well, lynch is a strong word, but I don't know what to say for

16     what was done in Prijedor when the Serbian Democratic Party with the help

17     of the army and the police actually perpetrated a much greater lynch.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we adopt this page?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be added.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 99, please?  And

22     that is probably 97 in e-court.  96, excuse me.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can I ask you where it says here:

25             [As read] "We reached Kurevo, one of the defenders testified, we

Page 19626

 1     came from Kurevo to Hambarine, and engaged into battle in order to

 2     protect the people.  In this direct battle, we killed a number of

 3     Chetniks this was our first action and our first fight"; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's what it says here.  This is paraphrasing.  It's

 5     something that one of those young men from up in Hambarine said.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And you can see there that some zoljas were broken

 7     down.  Who said this, do you know?

 8        A.   I think that his name is the same as yours, his name is

 9     Senad Karadzic, the son of Ferid Karadzic, who was killed down there on

10     the left bank of the Sana.

11        Q.   And can you look at what you say underneath Kozarac?  The people

12     of Kozarac had a reputation of being well-armed and well-trained and that

13     they would not surrender so easily; is that right?

14        A.   Well, this is my own interpretation and my own impressions based

15     on what I heard and what I read in the Kozarski Vjesnik.

16        Q.   And that is why you say that is why the Serbian people postponed

17     resolving the question of Kozarac and the neighbouring settlements?

18        A.   What is your question?

19        Q.   So the question is:  Did the Serbian authorities postpone and did

20     they negotiate during that time?

21        A.   Well, let me tell you this, already in 1992 Simo Drljaca and the

22     Serbian authorities kept waving and showing some lists which were -- did

23     not actually show that the people of Kozarac were well-armed, that they

24     had 3.500 rifles and weapons, none of that was actually true.  This was

25     just their way of motivating the Serbs to create a sense of mistrust

Page 19627

 1     among them.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we adopt this page, please?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following page,

 6     please?

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   And now here you describe the 24th of May.  This is all after

 9     Hambarine; is that right, when the Serbs issued an ultimatum for the

10     weapons to be handed over and to have Aliskovic and those killers

11     responsible for the shooting on those soldiers to surrender, and then you

12     say on the third and fourth paragraph from the top the weapons that came

13     into Kozarac and were distributed to the people were there thanks to able

14     individuals, people who loved their country, rather than the result of

15     work of some organisations and powers and parties that were in power.

16     Among those who obtained some weapons were Hasan Didin, Omer Mahmuljin,

17     Kole Kusuran, Azur Jakupovic, Captain Sead Cirkin and so on.  And then

18     you say Becir Medunjanin, Mustafa Tadzic, Islam Bahonjic, bravely stood

19     up, young men who entered into legend and on whom Kozarac will be proud

20     of, Hasan Mujcic, Didin; Suad Besic, Dudo; Sejo Bahonjic;

21     Muamer Kulenovic; Dado Blazevic and others.  And then you continue with

22     some more names.  So these are people who had embarked into battle

23     against the Serbian military and you declare them heroes; is that right?

24        A.   Well, yes.  When I read this text, yes, but don't forget,

25     Mr. Karadzic, that they were the legal representatives and they had the

Page 19628

 1     right to fight and they had the legal right to defend their homes.  They

 2     were members of the regular police of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So don't

 3     forget that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  I hope that we will have a little more

 5     time because the schedule has been changed.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, don't rely on that.  The Chamber at

 7     the moment is not minded to extend your time for your cross-examination.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this page, please?

 9     Then I will be under time pressure.  And the interpreters are going to

10     complain.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be added.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the document

13     65 ter 05748 and then we will go back to the book again.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You agree that from 6 April until 24 May, Kozarac was not touched

16     and it was not touched until the incident in Hambarine; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at this document?

19        A.   Yes, I see it.

20        Q.   This is a report, military secret, strictly confidential, and so

21     on and so forth, command of the 1st Krajina Corps describing the

22     liquidation of the Green Berets in the broader area of Kozarac on 27 May.

23     So the battle for Kozarac lasted for three days; is that right?

24        A.   The shelling lasted for a day and a half, and then the Serbian

25     infantry, their elite units, took a very short time to overrun Kozarac

Page 19629

 1     and the broader area.

 2        Q.   Can you look at points 3 and 4, where there is a reference to

 3     1.500 to 2.000 men without heavy weapons and it indicates the areas.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please be asked to repeat

 5     the name?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you repeat the name?

 7     Interpreters couldn't hear that.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 9        Q.   Paragraph 4, there is a description of where the Green Berets

10     were deployed, and it refers to the names of these localities, and then

11     it states that there were between 80 and 100 persons killed and about

12     1.500 captured, and it states that a number of the Green Berets, 100 to

13     200 persons, were at large on mount Kozarac, among the Serbs there were

14     five killed and 20 wounded.  Minor damage on the track assembly of two

15     M-84s and so on and so forth.  Do you agree that there were 80 to 100

16     killed and about 1.500 captured?

17        A.   No.  I do not agree with that, Mr. Karadzic.  According to my

18     information, when Kozarac was ethnically cleansed about 800 people of

19     Kozarac were killed.

20        Q.   Let's take it slowly.  We will come to that.  So this is from

21     that time, it's a strictly confidential military report on a completed

22     action.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this, please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton?

25             MS. EDGERTON:  The witness didn't agree with the document or the

Page 19630

 1     contents of the document, but I have no issue with the authenticity of

 2     the document.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  And assigned Exhibit number D1743.  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we go back to the

 6     book now again, the previous document?  Can we look at page 104 in the

 7     book?  In the e-court, that is page 101.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you look at the bottom of the page, 27 May, could you please

10     read out to us these last four lines at the bottom of the page?

11        A.   There is real chaos today in Prijedor.  Expelled persons from the

12     area of Kozarac are arriving from all sides.

13        Q.   Thank you.  So the persons who are expelled from Kozarac are

14     arriving to the town where the Serbs are in a majority; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  They just came for a short period of time, and then would

16     be assembled by the Serb police into trucks and taken to Trnopolje.

17        Q.   All right.  Well anyway, they are fleeing to Prijedor.  Can we

18     look at the next page, please?  And can we tender this page, please?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Adding it.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   When I asked you if you were told that Keraterm was a temporary

23     shelter, you said that nobody said that.  Can you look at the second

24     paragraph from the top, the Serbian authorities explained that Keraterm

25     was just temporary accommodation until the combat quiets down; is that

Page 19631

 1     right?

 2        A.   That's what you say but Keraterm was not temporary accommodation.

 3     It was there until 6 August 1992.

 4        Q.   Sir, did you not write that the Serbian authorities explained

 5     that Keraterm was a temporary accommodation?

 6        A.   Yes, it says that but this is a lie.  It's an outrageous lie.

 7        Q.   Can we just look at this?  You say that dugouts are referred to

 8     in Kozarusa and that a radio station was found and you said that these

 9     rumours contributed to the preparation of the Serbs?

10        A.   Well, yes.  I quoted an extremist Serb here who was sending out

11     false news items about a person from Kozarac whom we all knew very well.

12        Q.   Were there dugouts around Prijedor?

13        A.   No.  It is not correct that there were dugouts around Prijedor.

14        Q.   All right.  Thank you we will come to that but perhaps not with

15     you but we have Muslim sources about that.  Can we tender this page,

16     please, and then can we go to page 107?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Page 105 will be added.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour, can I make a quick

19     observation?  I know Dr. Karadzic feels he's moving fast but he

20     challenges the witness based on something allegedly said, that is the --

21     whether Keraterm was a temporary facility and then asserts that the

22     witness said that before.  In fact, I struggled to find any previous

23     reference along those lines, and the question was, do you remember that

24     you were told that you would be in Keraterm or rather in Omarska for only

25     a short period of time, that you would be interviewed and that you would

Page 19632

 1     then be sent home.  So what the witness was directly told when he went

 2     to, in that case, Omarska was changed which Dr. Karadzic then transmutes

 3     later to assert that the witness is changing his testimony, which is

 4     obviously not the case.  That is one reason why we have attempted to

 5     insist in the past upon the transcript references for such

 6     representations.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.  However, the Chamber is able

 8     to follow.  Let's proceed.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Can we see if this is correct:  It says that several groups of

11     brave Kozarac defenders did withdraw and decided and opted for guerrilla

12     warfare.  Now, if you look further, page 107 at the bottom, the last

13     paragraph:

14             [As read] "Several groups of brave Kozarac defenders decided

15     after all to withdraw to the Kozara woods and opted for a guerrilla

16     warfare and trying a breakthrough through the forest towards the river

17     Una"; correct?

18        A.   Well, yes, that's what it says there, that's the information

19     pertaining to 28 May 1992 but it comes from other sources.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know that such groups as this one

21     actually stayed in the Prijedor area up until 1994 occasionally killing

22     villagers who -- farmers who were working the land and attacking patrols?

23        A.   Well, that's what you're saying, Mr. Karadzic.  But I don't have

24     that information and I don't believe it's correct.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 19633

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Now, on this page, would you agree, you describe what the

 6     Main Board of the SDA did, that they dispersed, that they were

 7     irresponsible and so on, and then in the penultimate paragraph you say:

 8             [As read] "However, in spite of all these things that they failed

 9     to do at the time, this all will be resolved toward the end of the war."

10             And then you mention:

11             [As read] "Mirza Mujadzic, Hilmo Kopovac [phoen], Emir Mujadzic,

12     Denijal Dzafic, Elvedin Rizvanovic, Nijaz Kapetanovic, Mustafa Keric and

13     others will have to face those who remained alive and who went through

14     the hell of Hambarine, Kozarac, Prijedor, Brdo, Keraterm, Omarska ..."

15     and so on.  So --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the last part

17     of his question?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sivac.

19             The interpreters were not able to hear the last part of your

20     question, Mr. Karadzic.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Well, I asked this:  You feel that they are responsible.  For

23     what?  What is their responsibility, according to you?  And the witness

24     was actually on his way to reply.

25        A.   Well, because with their Serb friends, they escaped and they were

Page 19634

 1     safe and they left the people, the civilians, there at the will of the

 2     Serb army.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Sivac, did you know that in various variants that

 4     we adopted, Prijedor was envisaged, the entire area of Prijedor, or some

 5     of the Muslim areas, to be part of a Muslim republic?

 6        A.   Well, that's what you're saying today, but me and my folks from

 7     Prijedor, we never heard of any such proposal.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now have page 112?  I believe that's page 109

 9     or 110 in e-court but it's page 112 from the book -- 109 in e-court.

10             An attempt to liberate, can you see toward the end, does it say

11     here in the morning around 400 -- 4.20 fire broke -- there was a lot of

12     firing, there was a lot of shooting on the street before that as well.

13     They were just trying to celebrate and shooting in the air.  They would

14     come to the main street and then empty their magazines, but this morning,

15     however, it seemed to be a bit serious.  The shooting was getting more

16     serious.  And it was approaching the centre of town.

17        A.   Well, yes, that's how it was.

18        Q.   And that's what you said there?

19        A.   We supposed that there was fighting going on, and that there were

20     only a small arms used.

21        Q.   This is the attack that was led by Slavko Ecimovic, an attack on

22     Prijedor; correct?

23        A.   Well, you say an attack but what I'm saying is that was an

24     attempt to liberate Prijedor.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could we tender this page, please?

Page 19635

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Page 112 will be added.  Mr. Karadzic, we will be

 2     adding those pages that have been referred to by you only.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that suits me.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  So it is your intention not to tender page 108?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have it, Your Excellency, but

 6     it slipped my mind.  What I would like to tender is the documents or the

 7     pages that I'm asking for here, and that I'm trying to check with the

 8     witness.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where he says his Serb friends,

11     Mujadzic and others.  Can we now have 123, page 123, please, that's page

12     120 in e-court.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Here you explain what the Serb newspapers reported on but before

15     that there is your note, your comment:

16             [As read] "There was no doubt any more, Prijedor had been

17     attacked, and the citizens were trying to get closer to the centre of the

18     town because they saw the Green Berets withdrawing"; is that correct?

19        A.   Well, yes, but there was what the Serb papers reported and I'm

20     just quoting that part of their reports, newspaper reports.

21        Q.   You're quoting that a little lower but you're not saying that

22     this is a quote as well.  These are your words?

23        A.   Well, no, Mr. Karadzic.  Would you please take a look at the

24     subtitle there?  It is in bold print.  It says, "What the Serb newspapers

25     reported on the attack on Prijedor."  And then it goes on to say there

Page 19636

 1     was no doubt any more, everyone knew that Prijedor had been -- is being

 2     attacked and the citizens of the downtown areas because they saw the

 3     Green Berets withdrawing close to the reserve officers' hall knew that

 4     the Serbs had managed to defend Prijedor.

 5        Q.   But look at the third paragraph, it says although this task was

 6     relatively easy, well, would Serbs actually use this term "lahak" for

 7     "easy"?  Or is that a Muslim variant of the word "lak" in Serbian?

 8        A.   Well, Serbs wouldn't use this but actually, the person who

 9     revised the text, this text, just decided to use the Bosniak term.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please tender this?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 128, please?  I

13     believe in e-court that's 125.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You mention Mirzet and you say that -- or actually, he writes

16     something here.  You actually quote his words.  Is this correct, what he

17     states here?

18        A.   Well, for the most part it is correct.  I paraphrased his words

19     or I paraphrased his words in a conversation he had with me.

20        Q.   That Slavko had managed to obtain some zoljas and other weapons

21     and that the entire areas of Carakovo, Hambarine, Rizvanovici, Rakovcani,

22     Biscani and Sredici were still free territory so that in those areas we

23     were able to organise free movement; correct?

24        A.   Yes.  But that was up -- that was before 20 July when the ethnic

25     cleansing of these parts of the Muslim -- of the Prijedor municipality

Page 19637

 1     began.

 2        Q.   Well, would you please refrain from comments?  Now, I will put

 3     questions to you and you just answer them.  Can we have the next page,

 4     please?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  The witness was, quite properly, contextualising

 8     his answer for the benefit of everyone in the courtroom and not making

 9     any comments.  It's not, with respect, for Dr. Karadzic to admonish the

10     witness in that regard.

11             JUDGE KWON:  By all means.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Sivac, do you know that at one point, there was

14     an intermingling of the fighters and the civilians, those who actually

15     were combatants, they mingled with civilians, and on 3 May over 3.000

16     people were arrested?

17        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I've already asked you earlier to mention the time

18     and site or locality that you're referring to when you put a question to

19     me.  I don't understand what you're referring to here, what area and so

20     on.

21        Q.   Well, Mr. Sivac, I'm talking about the attack on Prijedor, or as

22     you put it, the attempt to liberate Prijedor, which occurred on 30 May.

23     Now, is it true that a lot of civilians from combat-affected areas had

24     actually arrived or been trickling into Prijedor and is it true that at

25     that time, over 3.000 people were taken prisoner, they were all

Page 19638

 1     intermingled there, the combatants and the civilians, they were taken

 2     prisoner, and taken to Keraterm, correct, and then from Keraterm to

 3     Omarska?

 4        A.   Well, after this operation, this attempt at liberating Prijedor,

 5     within two hours, Slavko Ecimovic's group was completely broken up and

 6     most of the men of his men were killed.

 7        Q.   That's not what I'm asking you about.  I'm asking you, as I put

 8     it already:  Did a lot of civilians congregate on Prijedor or were over

 9     3.000 people arrested and taken to these two centres that I mentioned

10     earlier?

11        A.   Mr. Karadzic, your question is not clear.  What do you mean

12     people congregated on Prijedor?  What do you mean by "congregated"?

13        Q.   Well, that's what you said.  You said that people fled Kozarac

14     and went to Prijedor.

15        A.   Well, we've already cleared that up a few moments ago and

16     I explained what exactly I was referring to, but now you're talking about

17     Prijedor.  The people from Kozarac have nothing to do with the people

18     from Prijedor.  Would you please keep them separate.

19        Q.   Did civilians from Kozarac flee to Prijedor?

20        A.   Well, again, you are going on and on with the same story.

21     I already told you a few moments ago that, yes, a group of civilians from

22     Kozarac did -- or were -- did arrive but then they were rounded up, put

23     on buses and sent to Trnopolje.

24        Q.   Well, that was the case with those people who were -- who -- for

25     whom it was impossible to find any accommodation - right? - but the

Page 19639

 1     others were put up with their friends.

 2        A.   Well, yes, but that only lasted a couple of days but then the

 3     police went and also rounded up those people, put them on buses and sent

 4     them also to Trnopolje.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you were taken into custody on 10 June and then

 6     you were sent back home because it was an error, correct, and then and

 7     you writes about there on page 156, probably 153 in e-court, and then you

 8     were stopped and those escorts who were taking you back home just barely

 9     managed to actually save you from those people who were on the road and

10     who intercepted the vehicle.  Well, these people who escorted you that

11     were in the car with you they got out of the car they actually bribed

12     those attackers with some cigarettes and then they saw you off home?

13        A.   Well, that's correct.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his

15     question [sic]?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Hm.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I think we've completely missed the witness's

18     answer because of the speed at which Dr. Karadzic has been moving.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think the witness said that's correct.

20             Is it correct, Mr. Sivac?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, well, what I said was that

22     Mr. Karadzic is trying to actually blend together the people of Kozarac

23     and the people of Prijedor but they have nothing to do, one with the

24     other.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19640

 1        Q.   Well, we are talking about the check-point here, Mr. Sivac, and

 2     we are talking about your escorts.  They got out of the vehicle, they

 3     bribed those attackers with cigarettes, and then they escorted you home;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Well, yes.  What you've just mentioned now, that's correct.

 6     I described that in my book.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  On the second occasion, it was on 20 June, you were

 8     arrested again and this time you were told that it was not an error;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   Did you ever find out, on the basis of whose interrogation or,

12     rather, stories, were you arrested the second time around and when they

13     said that it wasn't an error?

14        A.   Well, they never mentioned why or on whose authority they

15     arrested people.

16        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you about on whose authority.  I'm asking you

17     about the following:  After they questioned some other people they

18     concluded that they should arrest you again.  Now, who was it who

19     actually said things about you that led to your arrest?  Based on whose

20     testimony or based on whose statement were you arrested the second time?

21        A.   Well, there were no statements or no interviews.  What are you

22     trying to say?  People were just picked up in the street, if they ran

23     into a Serb patrol, they would just be picked up, if they were recognised

24     as Muslims, they would be picked up, taken to -- into custody and taken

25     to Keraterm or Omarska, depending on where.

Page 19641

 1        Q.   Thank you.  But didn't they find out that, together with Dr. Eso

 2     and others, you actually supplied Slavko and his renegade group with

 3     logistics, logistical materials?  That's what you also mention in your

 4     book; correct?

 5        A.   Well, again, you're trying to impute things to me that I did not

 6     say.  Mr. Karadzic, I don't want to use a profanity because I respect

 7     this Court but -- in my answer to you, but let me just say that this is

 8     one of the most stupid things I ever heard in my life.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you told us about the destiny of a man named

10     Crnalic; correct?

11        A.   Well, yes, his name was - and let me just make very clear -

12     Asmir, Vico, Crnalic, he's a neighbour of mine.

13        Q.   But is there any difference between what really happened to him

14     and what you wrote about in your book?

15        A.   Well, no I don't see any difference.  He was a participant and a

16     victim in that incident and I described the way that incident occurred.

17        Q.   Could you please tell us briefly what it was that happened to

18     him, what was it that you saw?

19        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I saw a part of what happened, and I also learned

20     from some other people who were in the immediate vicinity of the

21     incident, whether Asmir, Vico, Crnalic was killed and I already talked

22     about this person at length.  This is a young man who was retarded from

23     an early age, and I don't know, according to you who would have said

24     anything about him that would give grounds for his being taken into a

25     camp.

Page 19642

 1        Q.   Well, if we had more time, I would go into details but would you

 2     please describe what it was that you saw yourself?

 3        A.   Well, I saw, and as I said I also heard from the people who were

 4     in his immediate vicinity, that at one point, he was very thirsty and he

 5     got to his feet, he raised a bottle, trying to signal the guard that he

 6     needed water, and that he would like to go and pour some water into the

 7     bottle.  The guard did not allow him to do that.  He just pretended like

 8     he was drinking from that bottle, and then he began to dance, he did a

 9     jig, and then a group of guards surrounded him because they didn't know

10     that he was a retarded man, and at one point they even encouraged him,

11     they started telling him, "Come on, come on, keep on going."  And then

12     one of the most bloodthirsty of those guards who co-ordinated the work of

13     the interrogators and the people who arrested these detainees, and then

14     he, Asmir Crnalic, ran out of that building and he was taken to the

15     "White House".  He was taken to the room of the left-hand side which was

16     really meant for execution.

17        Q.   How do you know that, sir?

18        A.   I know, Mr. Karadzic, because whoever ended up in that room was

19     killed in Omarska.

20        Q.   What did you see?  Which of the killings, which of the executions

21     did you see?

22        A.   Mr. Karadzic, this is a very hypocritical question.  Are you

23     saying that we could take photos, that we actually gloated in the murders

24     that were carried out by your subjects?

25        Q.   Sir, you are an eyewitness, you're a participant, a protagonist,

Page 19643

 1     a victim.  What did you see?

 2        A.   I saw at first -- when Asmir, Vico, Crnalic was trying to leave

 3     the "White House" through a window and to go back to where all of us

 4     were, and when he put his foot on the windowsill, one of the guards who

 5     was standing guard, the sentry near the restaurant, shot at him and at

 6     that moment, we received a command to lie down with -- facing the asphalt

 7     road, and then we were allowed to sit up again after a while, and then we

 8     saw Asmir Crnalic's dead body lying motionless in front of the "White

 9     House".

10        Q.   Thank you.  In 1D05 --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karadzic repeat the document number?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In the Kvocka case you said that he started spitting water on

14     them.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D04501?  Page 4093.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have seven minutes to conclude.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You say this:  He started spitting water on them and then you say

19     that you didn't see him jumping out of the window.  And you didn't say

20     that.  And today you're saying that you actually saw that.

21        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you didn't specify who he spit water -- who he spat

22     water at.  Previously I was asked whether he was spitting water at the

23     guards and that's not true because they were at a distance from us

24     inmates.

25        Q.   In the direction of the guards, can you see that, in the

Page 19644

 1     direction of the guards?

 2        A.   That's not correct.  That's a wrong interpretation.  The guards

 3     were at some distance of at least ten metres from us.  He was spitting

 4     water on the asphalt.

 5        Q.   And then you say that you didn't see him jumping out of the

 6     window; right?

 7        A.   I told you that we had to lie down facing the asphalt and that

 8     I heard some of the things from those people who were closest to the

 9     "White House."  That's what I said.

10        Q.   In line 22, in line 20 you were asked did he jump out the window

11     and you say, I didn't see it, and I didn't say that.  Is that right?  Did

12     you say that?

13        A.   I didn't say that.  I don't know what it says here, but I have

14     just given you the complete story surrounding Asmir's murder.  You asked

15     me whether I saw any of the executions.

16        Q.   Can we now look at the amalgamated statement, page 179?  You

17     speak about similar things.  However, you say that he was spitting water

18     towards them and that he jumped out of the building through the building

19     and then that the guard opened fire at him?

20        A.   It is possible, Mr. Karadzic, that was my first statement in

21     1994.  I gave it to the OTP.

22        Q.   The amalgamated statement, page 179, that's what I'm reading

23     from.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I'm afraid there is no amalgamated statement in this

25     case.

Page 19645

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The material that was tendered.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Which of the executions of killings did you see, Mr. Sivac, which

 4     of them at all?

 5        A.   Well, I saw the killing of Asmir Crnalic, Vico.  I also --

 6        Q.   I apologise.  Let me just ask you this:  After that, they came

 7     and asked you what his name was and they made a note of that?

 8        A.   No, they didn't come to me.  The shift leader asked who knew the

 9     man and I just happened to be nearby and I gave them his name and the

10     name was confirmed by the neighbours from his street who were together

11     with him.

12        Q.   Your Excellencies, please give me the minutes leading up to the

13     break.  I need one last question and three sub-questions.  In the Stakic

14     case, you said that he managed to jump through the window - right? -

15     that's in the Stakic case page 174 in the amalgamated statement or rather

16     in the material that was proffered.

17             JUDGE KWON:  What is tendered is his testimony in Stakic case.

18     Not an amalgamated statement or of that sort.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's instead of the

20     amalgamated statement according to 92 ter.  That's what I meant.  So far

21     we had amalgamated statements and this is instead of.  22700, I think

22     that's the 65 ter number and the page number is 6728 through 6733 and

23     you're describing the event and you say that he managed to jump through a

24     window and that later on you could infer or conclude that he had been

25     killed; right?  That's page 174 in e-court and the document has been

Page 19646

 1     admitted according to 92 ter rule.  You were lying on your stomach and

 2     later on you could conclude or rather you say, "We were able to confirm

 3     that he had indeed been killed."  Right?

 4        A.   And what is your question?

 5        Q.   Did you know that he had jumped out of the window, that he had

 6     escaped the "White House," and that he was killed by the rifle shots?

 7        A.   No, that's not correct.  You're misinterpreting my words again.

 8     When we saw the dead body of Asmir Crnalic in front of the "White House,"

 9     people who were lying on the road were closer to the "White House" and

10     they told us that he had put his foot on the windowsill in order to jump

11     out of the room where he had been locked in and then when he was on the

12     windowsill he was shot at and killed and obviously his body fell out of

13     the building in front of the window.

14        Q.   And now you are quoted as saying:

15             [As read] [In English] "Asmir Crnalic was trying to jump out of

16     the window and that he had managed to jump out of the window.  And then

17     the guards shot him.  Is this correct, what you stated in your

18     statement?"

19             [Interpretation] And you say that you were very emotional and

20     that that was your 1994 statement, that you adhere by your words, your

21     memory was fresh at the time; isn't that what you said?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Where can we find that passage?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, what I can find is over the course of

24     a number of pages actually, and the last couple of sentences of

25     Dr. Karadzic are pulled from page 6733 of the trial transcript in the

Page 19647

 1     Stakic case and I would submit are actually put out of context again to

 2     this witness.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I had enough time, I would take

 4     things at a time and then we would be better off.  Page 179 in e-court,

 5     both question and the answer.  Everything is there.  I quoted the

 6     question and that's a quote from the statement as well.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Let's upload that page.  Yes, Mr. Tieger?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President, a quick translation issue at

 9     32:15, I heard the witness use in his language the word "pista" it was

10     translated as "road."  "Pista" is a particular -- has been used

11     repeatedly as a particular area of Omarska camp and it was often referred

12     to by that name so I think that can be checked in the -- on the original

13     tape and probably should be.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter confirms that the witness,

15     indeed, used the word "pista."

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  And this is the wrong trial proceedings.  That's

18     because Dr. Karadzic didn't give the right 65 ter number to my

19     colleagues.  I think that you are looking for 22701A.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  22701A, I believe that

21     now we have it.  There was a mistake but not mine.  And now I believe we

22     have the right page.  This is the page, right.  Line 14.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Let's just look at the question.  Bear with me.  And your

25     question -- your answer starts on page 17.  Or rather in line 17.  And

Page 19648

 1     let me read for you.

 2             [In English] [As read] "Let me tell you, sir, when I recount this

 3     event I sometimes become emotional perhaps, but I abide by my first

 4     statement because in 1994 my memory was fresher and I remembered more

 5     details.  I see now that these details are very important to you.  The

 6     essence is true.  Asmir, Vico, was a sick man.  He was taken to the

 7     "White House."  When he tried to escape from the "White House" to the

 8     "pista," he was shot."

 9             [Interpretation] And so on and so forth.  Is that what you

10     stated?  Was that your evidence?  Right or not?

11        A.   What right or not?  What was your question?  I didn't understand

12     your question.

13        Q.   I have just read out your answer back to you; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What else did you see?  Who else was killed?

16        A.   Mr. Karadzic, in Omarska, there were a lot of killings.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me just about those that you saw, that you

18     testified to.

19        A.   You have to understand that we were not there on some kind of a

20     holiday or a seminar of some sort, that we were able to debate things or

21     observe what was going on.  Your most important strategy was --

22        Q.   Thank you, thank you, just tell me what you saw.

23        A.   I saw people who were dying from beatings and torture, that they

24     had been subject to.

25        Q.   Tell us that.  What did you see?

Page 19649

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Come to your last question.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can 1D0500 be admitted?  Page 16 in

 3     e-court.  We saw it the day before yesterday.  Then also page 68, 34.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  The pages shown to the witness can be added in

 5     consultation with the Prosecution.

 6             Yes, Ms. Edgerton?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  I think Dr. Karadzic is referring to pages that

 8     were shown the day before yesterday to the witness, and there actually

 9     were no pages shown the day before yesterday to the witness.

10             JUDGE KWON:  That's why I referred to the consultation.  So with

11     the confirmation from the Prosecution, those pages shown to the witness

12     can be checked and then later added to that exhibit.

13             Do you see some problems?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I do see some problems but -- because there was

15     nothing shown to the witness, and in the spirits of fairness, the

16     witness, and in fact nobody in the Chamber, were in the position to find

17     out whether the witness was accurately quoted to understand any context,

18     to what was discussed with him.  All we had was paraphrased and the

19     witness dealt with that as best he could.  All that being said, what we

20     could try and do is engage in discussion with the Defence and perhaps

21     having said over these matters and perhaps having said that, the

22     Prosecution might want to reserve the right to review those pages and

23     pages around them and perhaps add relevant portions for the proper

24     context.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Of course.  We do appreciate your understanding.

Page 19650

 1     Come back to the Chamber if there is a problem.

 2             But your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond briefly?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No need.  You don't have to.  I take it you

 5     concluded?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I will wrap it up.

 7     I announced a question with three sub-questions, that was going to be my

 8     last question.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Sivac, that in Serbia there are around 68 to 70

11     per cent Serbs and there are 30 per cent non-Serbs, Hungarians,

12     Bulgarians, the Roma, Czech, Poles and so on and so forth?  Do you agree

13     or do you know that fact, that there are about 30 per cent of national

14     minorities residing in Serbia?

15        A.   I'm not familiar with statistical data but I don't have the

16     reason not to believe you.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read the Islamic Declaration?

18        A.   No.  I read only classics, Mesa Selimovic, Ivo Andric, Garcia.

19        Q.   Well, that's very commendable.  Let's now look at page 64 in your

20     book.  I believe it's 61 in e-court.  04500.  Page 61 in e-court.

21     1D04500.  That's it.  And now can we look at page 61, at least I believe

22     it's 61.  No, no, this is a good page.

23             Can I ask you to read the intentions of the leadership of the SDA

24     in this paragraph here?

25        A.   What paragraph, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 19651

 1        Q.   Read all of it.  Starting with the intentions of the leadership.

 2     Can you see it?

 3        A.   Yes --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness be asked to read slowly in

 5     order to be interpreted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you start again and slow down when reading,

 7     Mr. Sivac?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [As read] "The intentions of the

 9     leadership of the Party of Democratic Action in Prijedor may have been

10     honest and correct, but in a duel with the Serbs they were losing,

11     wasting time and losing battles, because you can play fair only if the

12     other players play fair.  However, on the opposing side there were those

13     who openly said there is no co-existence and peace between the Orthodox

14     faith and other peoples and their institutions.  That's why the Serbs

15     will make it their right to use force and military to arrange their own

16     world where the Orthodox faith will prevail and where only Serbs will

17     live."

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic start his question all over

19     again?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Start again your question.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Look at the sentence, "there is no peace and question existence

23     between the Orthodox faith and other peoples and their institutions."

24     Wasn't that the principal maxim of the Islamic Declaration?  Or is that

25     the maxim of the Serbian people who have 30 per cent of the national

Page 19652

 1     minority living with them?  Why did you copy this from the

 2     Islamic Declaration, Mr. Sivac?

 3        A.   These are your words, Mr. Karadzic.  You are saying this.  As an

 4     author and as a man who wrote a book, I had every right to use poetic

 5     licence and to use various sources and to quote things that at that

 6     moment I deemed to be the most important for me and for the book.

 7     I wanted to use the best expressions in order to best qualify all those

 8     things that were happening in the territory of the municipality of

 9     Prijedor.

10        Q.   In the transcript we have poetic licence however, you said what?

11             JUDGE KWON:  The record does not show what is the answer and what

12     is the question.  We come -- should come to an end.

13             Do you have any redirect examination, Ms. Edgerton?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Then your final question, on an exceptional basis,

16     Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My question was this:  You're here testifying under oath.  You

19     are not a writer.  So there is no licence either for me or for you.  Are

20     you claiming that what you wrote in the book refers to the Serbs or is it

21     rather the principal postulate of the Islamic Declaration of

22     Alija Izetbegovic?

23        A.   I don't know.  I didn't read the Islamic Declaration written by

24     Alija Izetbegovic.  However, the statement that I included in my book is

25     correct and I'm saying this under oath.  Whatever I wrote in my book

Page 19653

 1     I still adhere by it.

 2        Q.   And my final question:  Of all the former Yugoslav republics

 3     which of the republics had more minorities than Serbia and the Serbs?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, he's had his final question.  That's

 5     final plus one.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That's it, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can these pages be admitted.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Page 64 will be added to the existing --

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Can I just -- page 63 immediately before that

10     is -- and I think the two pages after -- yeah, page 63 immediately before

11     that is the beginning of that chapter, the two pages don't show the whole

12     chapter but at least, perhaps, page 63 should be added to the --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, what are we going to

15     do with these page numbers that I mentioned the day before yesterday, the

16     witness spoke about that, I didn't have to show it to him because he was

17     confirming that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Identify the page numbers you showed to the witness

19     and consult with the Prosecution and come back to the Chamber if there is

20     any problem.

21             Mr. Sivac, that concludes your evidence.  I would like to thank

22     you on behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole for your coming

23     to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank you for

25     having the time and the patience to listen to me one more time.

Page 19654

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We will rise all together.  We will have a break for

 2     half an hour and resume at 11.00.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Dzafic.  Do you hear me in the

 7     language you understand?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day.  Yes, I can hear you in a

 9     language I can understand.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness kindly take the solemn

11     declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

13     the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  ATIF DZAFIC

15                           [Witness testified via videolink]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.  Please be seated and make

18     yourself comfortable.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good morning, Your Honours.

22                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dzafic.  Please state your full name.

24        A.   I am Atif Dzafic, the son of Avdo, born in 1950 in Sanica and

25     that is where I'm still living today.

Page 19655

 1        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, as we discussed on the videolink the other day, part

 2     of your evidence in this case will be submitted in writing and we first

 3     need to deal with the formalities associated with that submission.  You

 4     provided statements and information to representatives to the Office of

 5     the Prosecutor of the ICTY and you testified before the ICTY in two

 6     trials, the Brdjanin trial in 2002 and the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial on

 7     4 and 5 February 2010; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You've recently had an opportunity to review, with the assistance

10     of an interpreter, an amalgamated witness statement containing portions

11     of your evidence from your statements and your Stanisic and Zupljanin

12     testimony; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter 90248 [sic] on the screen,

15     please?  Mr. Registrar, if the witness could be shown his amalgamated

16     witness statement.

17        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, is that the document that you reviewed the other day?

18        A.   Yes.  That is the document that I looked at a day or two ago

19     here.

20        Q.   There are a small number of facts stated that need to be correct

21     order clarified and if we could go quickly through these, in paragraph 1

22     on page 2 of the document, the fifth sentence, is it right that the dates

23     1985-1988 should read 1985-1990?  That is, you studied at the Faculty of

24     Political Science from 1985 to 1988 and submitted your dissertation in

25     1990?  Is that right?

Page 19656

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You also studied at the Faculty of Political Science in Zagreb

 3     not in Zadar as it currently reads which is what you stated in your

 4     original statement in February 2001; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, we did correct that.  That is now correct.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 2 also on that page, you stated that you did your

 7     JNA training at the reserve officers' school in Zadar, not in Zagreb as

 8     it currently reads and you corrected this in an addendum to your

 9     statement; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I assist?  I think that the

12     Serbian version is somebody else's statement.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic, what's on the screen

15     but the witness actually has a hard copy of the amalgamated witness

16     statement in his hand.

17        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, if we could go to paragraph 6 on page 3?

18             JUDGE KWON:  [Microphone not activated]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, just to correct the transcript it

20     should be 65 ter document 90284 [wrong translation on English channel].

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Mr. Court deputy, the interpretation was

22     coming through in B/C/S not English.  What was the number that you

23     stated?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it should be 90284, amalgamated

25     ICTY witness statement of Dzafic, Atif.  Thank you.

Page 19657

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  My apologies, that was the number I read.

 2     Sorry.  I apologise for that.

 3        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, on paragraph 6 on page 3, it states that you were

 4     relieved of duty as commander of the Kljuc SJB on 21 May 1992.  Can you

 5     just clarify that at that time you held the rank of commander of the

 6     police in the Kljuc public security station also known as the SJB?  Is

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  Until 21, or rather, 22 May I was the commander of the

 9     police station in Kljuc.

10        Q.   You say commander of the police station in Kljuc.  Were you --

11        A.   Since I did not sign the loyalty -- since I did not sign the

12     loyalty document for the Serbian authorities, I was called on 22 or 21

13     May and then I was relieved of duty.  My weapons, I handed over and I was

14     told to leave the Kljuc police station.

15        Q.   Yes, Mr. Dzafic.  That's all contained in the amalgamated witness

16     statement.  I simply want to know at this point in the position as

17     commander of the police, you reported directly to the chief of the SJB,

18     did you not?

19        A.   According to our laws, as the commander I was personally

20     responsible to the chief, Kondic, for the tasks and responsibilities that

21     I was entrusted with.

22        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, if I can now take you to paragraph 8 also on that

23     page, the sentence reads:  "The municipality of Kljuc had the following

24     villages and hamlets within its borders:"

25             And this should read:  "The municipality of Kljuc had the

Page 19658

 1     following non-Serb villages and hamlets within its borders:"; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  These were non-Serb settlements in the territory of the

 4     Kljuc municipality.

 5        Q.   Finally, paragraph 24 on page 7, the sentence, "Kondic appointed

 6     Dusan Stojakovic as the deputy commander," should read, "Kondic appointed

 7     Dusan Stojakovic as the assistant commander"; is that right?

 8        A.   Correct.  Stojakovic, deputy commander.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. Sutherland, it's page 43, line

10     17, it's your question.  You asked him from lines 16:

11             [As read] "I simply want to know at this point in the position as

12     commander of the police, you reported directly to the chief of the SJB,

13     did you not."

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So he was the commander of the Kljuc SJB and then he

16     reported to the chief of that SJB?  Was that your question?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes under the chief, there is another level at

18     which the witness was at but I will ask him to, in fact, give that

19     evidence.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, going back to paragraph 6 on page 3, it states there

23     that you were relieved of duty as the commander of the Kljuc SJB.  Your

24     position at that time was as commander of the police, was it not, and in

25     that position as commander of police, you reported directly to the chief

Page 19659

 1     of the SJB, who you referred to earlier as Mr. Kondic; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And just a moment ago I read to you the correction that you

 4     wished to make to paragraph 24, where it had Kondic appointing

 5     Dusan Stojakovic as the deputy commander and it should have read he

 6     appointed him as the assistant commander, is that the correction you

 7     wanted to make?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you confirm, please, that with those corrections and

10     clarifications the amalgamated statement accurately reflects your

11     evidence?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   If you were asked today about the matters contained in that

14     statement, would you provide the same information to the Trial Chamber

15     and that is even if you would probably not be able to formulate

16     everything in the same words, the essence of your answers would be the

17     same?

18        A.   Yes.  By all means, the answers, the gist, would be the same

19     regardless of the time that has passed.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 90284, the

21     amalgamated witness statement of Mr. Dzafic.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  That is admitted.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That shall be assigned Exhibit P3488.

Page 19660

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With Your Honour's leave I'll now read a short

 2     summary of the witness's evidence.

 3             Mr. Atif Dzafic was born and grew up in the Kljuc municipality.

 4     In 1997 the witness joined the police in Kljuc.  Between 1978 and 1982,

 5     he was deputy commander of police and from 1982 to May 1992, he held the

 6     post of commander of the police.  After the multi-party elections in

 7     1990, he also held the position of acting chief of SJB until a Serb,

 8     Vinko Kondic, was appointed to the post of chief of police of the public

 9     security station.

10             On 21 May 1992, the witness was relieved of his duty as commander

11     of the police because he refused to sign a loyalty oath to the Serb

12     authorities.

13             The witness describes the SDS takeover of the municipality, the

14     Serb Crisis Staff, the split of the police, the Serb Special Police unit,

15     the deterioration in interethnic relations and the persecution of

16     non-Serbs.  He provides evidence of his own arrest and detention at the

17     Nikola Mackic school which is schedule C, 15.2 and the Manjaca camp,

18     schedule C, 1.2.  The witness gives detailed descriptions of beatings,

19     forced labour, inadequate nutrition and generally inhumane conditions at

20     both camps.

21             The witness provides information on other detention facilities

22     including the SJB building in Kljuc which is schedule C, 15.1, the

23     witness also provides evidence in relation to incidents at Biljani,

24     schedule A, 7.3 and Velagici, schedule B, 10.1.

25             The witness was released from Manjaca camp on 16 December 1992

Page 19661

 1     when he was put on an escorted convoy to Karlovac in Croatia.

 2             In 1993, the witness met up with family members in Travnik and

 3     returned to Kljuc municipality in 1995 after its liberation.  The witness

 4     attended exhumations conducted in the Kljuc municipality.

 5             That completes the summary of the witness's written evidence.

 6        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I have a couple of questions or a few questions for

 7     you.  If I could have 65 ter number 00262 on the screen, please, and this

 8     is, Mr. Registrar, this is document at tab 15 in your binder.

 9             Mr. Dzafic, this is a document that you saw the other day, dated

10     28 May 1992, to all SJBs in the region from Stojan Zupljanin at the

11     CSB Banja Luka concerning the dismissal of those employees who did not --

12        A.   Security Services Centre.

13        Q.   Yes, security services centre regarding the dismissal of those

14     employees who did not sign the solemn declaration.  Is that consistent

15     with what you know happened in the SJB in Kljuc?  You have testified

16     already in your statement that it happened to you, but what about the

17     other non-Serb police officers?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are

19     overlapping.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. Sutherland and Mr. Dzafic,

21     because of the overlapping, we couldn't hear you.  Could you start again

22     your answer, kindly?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gladly.  I can see the dispatch by

24     the Banja Luka Security Services Centre signed by Stojan Zupljanin, the

25     chief and it was sent to all of the police stations in the Banja Luka

Page 19662

 1     region.  It states that all the employees who did not sign the loyalty

 2     will have their employment terminated as of 15 April 1992, which is

 3     something that happened to me personally, as well as to other non-Serb

 4     staff at the public security station in Kljuc.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  Mr. Dzafic.  Your Honour, I tender

 6     that document.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be assigned Exhibit number

 9     P3489.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 00849 and

11     Mr. Registrar, this is at tab 13 in your binder.

12        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, this is also a document you saw the other day.  It's

13     a War Presidency decision of 21 July 1992 signed by the president,

14     Jovo Banjac, and it states at point 1, all managerial posts, positions

15     where the inflow of information is possible at the protection of socially

16     owned property and all places of importance for the functioning of

17     economic entities may only be filled by staff of Serbian nationality, can

18     be found.

19             Item 2 also refers to all socially owned enterprises,

20     shareholding companies, state institutions, public enterprises and the

21     public security station.

22             You've just advised us about what was happening in the SJB.  What

23     do you know about that happening in other public institutions?

24        A.   This was happening in all the other institutions, including state

25     and public enterprises, and we mentioned my case at the police station,

Page 19663

 1     and this decision publicly talks about when the SDS won over

 2     58.8 per cent of the power in the Kljuc municipality, indicating that

 3     something similar would happen, and so this is evidence that this was

 4     actually practically implemented, and as for disloyal Serbs, I can

 5     mention Dusan Petrovic, who was a commander of the TO staff before the

 6     elections but was not loyal to the Serbian Republic of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is why later he was not appointed to this

 8     post any more.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dzafic --

10        A.   If necessary, I also remember --

11        Q.   Continue, please.

12        A.   If required, I also recall other leading officials in the

13     municipality who were non-Serbs and who were relieved of duty, and these

14     are Enisa Ducanovic, Hamdija Ducanovic, the president of the Court,

15     Dzemal Botonjic, the Prosecutor, Enisa Ducanovic and so on and so forth.

16        Q.   Did your wife also hold a managerial position?

17        A.   Yes, yes.  I was actually -- when I mentioned my own case I meant

18     myself and my wife who was in the Obnova company in a leadership position

19     and on the same date she was sent to take her vacation on the same day

20     that I was told to go, and she never returned to work again.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.  I've finished with that document.  If

22     I could have 65 ter number 00873, and this is at tab -- Mr. Registrar,

23     this is at tab 16 in the binder.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The previous document will be admitted as --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have something to say.

Page 19664

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document could have been

 3     produced in 1995 when they reentered Prijedor.  There is no protocol

 4     number and there is to signature.  If we go back to the document, you

 5     will see that there is no protocol number on the original, and there is

 6     no signature.  And the stamp was accessible to them.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Let us upload that document.  65 ter 849.  So you

 8     are challenging the authenticity of this document, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Absolutely, because at the top

10     there is just the marking P501, and that could have been also issued by

11     the presidential cabinet, but anyone could have signed it.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness has testified that

13     what's contained, the contents that are contained in this document, are

14     consistent with his knowledge.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but we are talking about the authenticity.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I know that, Your Honour, but in relation to --

17     it's a matter for weight for Your Honours.  It doesn't stop the document

18     from being admitted.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I would also mention, Mr. President, and

20     Mr. Robinson, I believe, will confirm this, the Defence has tendered

21     innumerable documents with similar deficiencies that otherwise bear

22     indications of authenticity.  And I think a selective approach does not

23     serve anyone's interest.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But Mr. Karadzic is raising at the moment the

25     possibility of making up of this document, if my understanding is

Page 19665

 1     correct.  Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, we are not accepting the

 3     authenticity of this document.  I do agree that there are other

 4     circumstances where documents which bear stamps and no signatures have

 5     been admitted but given that in this municipality the Bosniaks came to

 6     power and had access to these stamps, there is some legitimate basis to

 7     question the authenticity of this.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will mark it for identification until

10     the time we are satisfied as to its provenance or authenticity.  Yes, it

11     will be marked for identification as Exhibit P3490.

12             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Sir, looking at the document, if we could go to the handwritten

15     B/C/S pages which is at pages 16 to 24 of the document --

16             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, we will upload 873 on our part as

17     well.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you reviewed this document.  Do you recognise the

20     handwriting?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all unnecessary microphones be switched

22     off, please?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do recognise this

24     handwriting this is Todo Gajic's handwriting.  He was inspector at the --

25     of the criminal police at the Kljuc police station, and he regularly

Page 19666

 1     visited Manjaca camp.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   How long had you known Mr. Gajic for?

 4        A.   I had known Mr. Gajic from the first day when I started working

 5     at the police station, from September 1, 1970, up until the last day when

 6     I was relieved of duties and basically fired from the police.  We --

 7        Q.   1970, do you mean 1977?

 8        A.   My apologies, September 1, 1977 until 21 May 1992.

 9        Q.   And that document appears to be notes of a meeting in Manjaca

10     camp; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, precisely so.  And I see then further down my neighbours who

12     were in Manjaca but who were ill on that particular day.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something?  The witness

14     is not talking about the document that we see before us on our screen

15     but, rather, about some documents that he has before him.  Could we see

16     those documents that he is referring to?  And could my learned -- could

17     Ms. Sutherland please show us the documents that the witness is actually

18     looking at and share it with us?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, Mr. Dzafic is looking at the

20     document 00873.  It's typewritten and it also has handwriting and there

21     is a translation.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So the first part, i.e. the e-court pages, 1 to 15,

23     are typewritten parts and from 16 to 24 are the handwritten part

24     [Overlapping speakers].

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Overlapping speakers] ... are the handwritten

Page 19667

 1     pages and that was the handwriting that the witness recognised as being

 2     that of Mr. Gajic.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  From the appearance it seems to be the case.  As you

 4     can see from the monitor.  Let's proceed, Ms. Sutherland.  And then court

 5     deputy in the field office confirms that as well.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, that is all the questions I have for you.  Thank you

 8     very much.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender the associated

10     exhibits.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Before that we will admit this, 873 that will be

12     Exhibit P3491.  I have a few questions in relation to associated

13     exhibits.  First one relates to 65 ter number 874.  In the transcript or

14     in the statement, the witness confirmed his name, that number 685 is his,

15     but the document does not have that number.  It ends at number 67.  Could

16     we upload that exhibit, 65 ter number 874?  So could you come back to us

17     after checking it?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, I will do.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And 65 ter number 920, which is a drawing of the

20     witness, and 16080 do not have the English translation.  I think at least

21     the legend should be translated.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I will see to that, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Otherwise, are there any objections in

24     relation to associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

Page 19668

 1                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Then all the others and these ones as well, those

 3     untranslated documents will be marked for identification in the meantime,

 4     and then I take it 874 will be supplemented later on by the Prosecution.

 5     With those caveats, we will admit them all and give a number in due

 6     course.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dzafic, you will now be asked by Mr. Karadzic,

 9     the accused, in his cross-examination.  Please bear in mind that both you

10     and Mr. Karadzic are speaking the same language.  Please make sure that

11     you put a pause between -- before you start answering the question.

12     Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Dzafic.  Let us take a look, in view of the

17     fact that you are speaking under oath here, let us take a look at what

18     the truth and the whole truth actually is.  In paragraph 4 of your

19     statement, your amalgamated statement, you suggest that you were a police

20     commander and that the SDA asked you to continue in that role, and you

21     are suggesting now, or you suggest there actually, that you were asked to

22     do this because you were an expert; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In other words, not because you were a member of that same party

25     and not as a party official?

Page 19669

 1        A.   Well, let me clarify that a little bit.  I had previously been a

 2     successful deputy commander, and then, following that, I served as the

 3     commander of the police in -- for two terms, although the second term was

 4     not completed.  After that, the -- after the multi-party elections, SDA

 5     representatives asked to see me and then they asked me if I could

 6     continue and stay in that post, and I accepted.

 7        Q.   So as a non-party person; correct?

 8        A.   Well, I didn't sign any papers to the effect that I would be

 9     bound by the SDA.  I simply agreed that I would remain in my post as

10     commander of the police station.

11        Q.   Were you a member of the SDA?

12        A.   No.  I don't want to go into the voting now, but I never

13     officially signed any statement or any application in order to become a

14     member of the SDA.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now have 65 ter 22075, please?  Let us see

16     what you said in the Adamovic trial, and if we can have page 8 of that

17     document, in other words document 22075, page 8.  The ERN page --

18             JUDGE KWON:  It's not listed in your list of papers to be used

19     with this witness.  I'm not sure whether the court deputy in the field

20     office has it.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We notified that under the number

22     22074, but today they have actually switched the numbers and assigned it

23     a new number, 22075.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So there we have notified the

Page 19670

 1     parties.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's 22074 says that it was the testimony.  So

 3     court deputy in the field office should -- must have it.  Yes.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So now can we have page 8 of this document, yes, we have the

 6     right page.  Now, please look at this, the Prosecutor Begovic asks you

 7     the following:

 8             {As read] "I understand that but you said that your party, if

 9     I understood it correctly, you talk about a coalition but what party did

10     you belong to?"

11             And you say, "Well, I was a member of the SDA," well, er -- is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Mr. Karadzic, it says there that I was a member, but you asked me

14     a moment ago whether I signed any official documents for the SDA, and I

15     can state here that I never did any such thing, but of course it says

16     here that I was a member.

17        Q.   I didn't actually ask you about your signature.  I only asked you

18     whether you were a member of the SDA.  And we have the answer now.

19             Now, tell us, please, do you know when the SDA and when the SDS

20     were established?  Do you agree that the SDA was the first party to be

21     established, both at the republic level and in your municipality?

22        A.   I can't remember.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 17, you talk about Alija Delimustafic.

24     You say that after the election, he replaced Dusko Zgonjanin, who was a

25     Serb; is that true?

Page 19671

 1        A.   After the multi-party elections, the Ministry of the Interior, or

 2     rather, Alija Delimustafic was elected as the Minister of the Interior.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  But whom did he succeed?

 4        A.   Well, previously, the secretary of the secretariat or the

 5     minister was Dusko Zgonjanin.

 6        Q.   Well, I'm afraid that too is incorrect, Mr. Dzafic.  It was

 7     Muhamed Besic, a Muslim; right?

 8        A.   Well, I really can't recall, believe me.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And then in paragraph 18, you state that there were

10     security station centres, security service centres in Banja Luka, Zenica,

11     Doboj, Tuzla, Sarajevo, Mostar.  Now, would you agree with me that only

12     Banja Luka was a centre in an area that had an absolute Serb majority and

13     Doboj where there was a relative Serb majority, whereas all the other

14     centres were in areas that had a Serbian majority but not in the

15     territorial sense but not a -- but they did not have centres there.  Is

16     Bihac, Gorazde, Zenica --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do not overlap, Mr. Karadzic.  I don't know from

18     where we missed.  There was an answer to certain part of your question

19     but we missed it.  Please continue.  But on your part, please put a

20     pause.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My apologies to

22     participants and to Witness Dzafic.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You said, Witness, that you never gave any thought to that, but

25     you do agree that only Banja Luka had the Serb majority; correct?

Page 19672

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let me then repeat for the transcript:  Bihac, Gorazde, Zenica,

 3     Tuzla, Sarajevo, Mostar and Livno had centres but they did not have a

 4     Serb majority; correct?  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Well, off the top of my head I really can't say.  I never really

 6     looked at the ethnic structure within these various security services

 7     centres.  I knew about the Banja Luka area.  I knew that there was a

 8     predominantly Serb population there, but as for the other centres

 9     I really can't say either way, simply I never looked into that.  I was

10     not interested.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 22, you describe that Stojan Zupljanin

12     was appointed or elected after some other candidates actually withdrew

13     their candidatures; correct?

14        A.   According to some information that I had, yes.

15        Q.   However, do you know that we had to fight a big battle there and

16     that the SDS preferred candidate was a completely different person but he

17     did not work in the police and Zupljanin who was not a member of the SDS

18     was appointed at the proposal of the deputy minister, Zepinic?

19        A.   I don't know anything about that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But then would you agree that paragraph 22 is

21     incorrect?

22        A.   Well, as far as I know, there were two other candidates.  They

23     withdrew from running for Banja Luka CSB chief, and they told me that

24     they had been offered this post but that they refused to accept it, but

25     how correct that is, I never checked.

Page 19673

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 16, you say that Dusko Petrovic

 2     succeeded Jovo Kevac in the Territorial Defence and that after

 3     Dusko Petrovic, Bosko Lukic was elected.  Was Bosko Lukic a member of the

 4     SDS?

 5        A.   Well, you actually put several questions, Mr. Karadzic, all at

 6     once.  I don't really know whether Mr. Lukic was a member of the SDS or

 7     not.  I know that he was a retiree and that he was reactivated after a

 8     while, that he was brought back to perform that duty.  As for the second

 9     question or rather the first, I know that both Dusan Petrovic held this

10     duty of TO Staff Commander, as well as Kevac, and I know very well that

11     after the multi-party election, Dusan Petrovic was not elected to that

12     post.

13        Q.   Thank you.  But you are now stressing the party membership and

14     you pointed out that Bosko Lukic was nominated by the SDS.  So I'm asking

15     you whether Bosko Lukic was appointed to the Territorial Defence post

16     because he was a member of the SDS or because people trusted his

17     abilities, his competence, and in that context, do you know whether he

18     was a member of the SDS or not?

19        A.   Well, I just said a moment ago that I don't know specifically

20     about Lukic but according to everything we could see and what was

21     happening with that post I know that Lukic could not have been appointed

22     to that post without having been a member of the party.

23        Q.   And you stand by that?  You claim that with certainty?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Who was the president of the municipality of Kljuc?

Page 19674

 1        A.   At what time, what time period are you talking about.

 2        Q.   Well, after the multi-party election?

 3        A.   It was Mr. Jovo Banjac.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And who was the president of the municipality before

 5     the multi-party elections?

 6        A.   I can't remember.  I would need some time to reflect on that.

 7        Q.   Could it have been Jovo Banjac still?

 8        A.   I think so.  I think it was Jovo, but I'm not absolutely certain.

 9        Q.   In other words, Jovo Banjac was not president of the municipality

10     because he was a member of the SDS but because he had some experience in

11     that job - correct? - so that in his case that too was the case.

12        A.   I can't recall.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when Vinko Kondic was appointed as the chief of

14     the public security station, that was the post that was apportioned to

15     the SDS, he had some difficulties and there were some issues raised, so

16     that his appointment was delayed; correct?  You speak about this in

17     paragraph 5.

18        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You said that he had been convicted to a prison term

20     of six months, that he appealed and that the appeal was supported and

21     then only after that he was appointed to that post?

22        A.   Well, let me clarify that a bit, Mr. Karadzic.  Vinko Kondic was

23     supposed to be appointed together with me.  It was delayed by a few

24     months because there was -- there were criminal proceedings underway

25     against Vinko for some irregularities in the company where he worked, of

Page 19675

 1     which he was -- with which he was charged.  However, the Court decision

 2     was not final and after the appeals proceedings where he was acquitted,

 3     he was appointed.  He was relieved of these accusations and he was

 4     appointed.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And he was appointed as the chief of the public

 6     security station?

 7        A.   Yes.  And he had --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you repeat your answer, after

10     you had said yes, Mr. Dzafic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean my answer to the last

12     question?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Dzafic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, the last, the

15     appointment --

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   May I just intervene?  My question was not recorded in the

18     transcript.  I said that before he was appointed, you -- you were acting

19     chief of police station and police commander, and you answered

20     affirmatively, you said yes.

21        A.   Yes, for a while I held both those posts.

22        Q.   Now, when he was nominated, you were left with just one of those

23     functions, the commander of the station; correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25        Q.   Now, if I put it to you, Mr. Dzafic, that this whole matter with

Page 19676

 1     the court proceedings were recognised by the Serb side as the well-known

 2     framing, system of framing people, in order to interfere with their

 3     appointment, what would you answer?

 4        A.   I have nothing to say to that.

 5        Q.   Well, thank you.  You told me that the president of the court

 6     advised you of these things; correct?

 7        A.   The president of the court and other people who were saying that

 8     Vinko's appointment was delayed precisely for these reasons.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The president of the court was Dzemo Botonjic, whom

10     you mentioned a little earlier, when you said that he was fired; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In your interview of 1998, document 65 ter 22073, this portion

13     can be found on page 3.  And the same is true of the English translation,

14     page 3.  And in document 22074, also on page 3, you said -- you state as

15     follows.  So can we have document 22074 or 22075, whatever you call it

16     now?  Can we pull up that document, please?

17             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that the transcript in Adamovic, we do not

18     have the English translation; correct?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, we do, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then the e-court has a mistake.  It refers to

21     another transcript.  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first document is 22073 on page

23     3.  You say, "As I heard from the president of the court,

24     Dzemo Botonjic ...," whereas in this document, 22074, on page 3, you say

25     as follows:

Page 19677

 1             [As read] "Well, let me be succinct.  I never said in any

 2     statement that I had heard this directly from Dzemo.  Rather, I heard it

 3     from other people that Mr. Botonjic was complaining that there were

 4     pressures relating to this case and that this should be take be care of

 5     as soon as possible."

 6             So did you hear this from the judge, the president of the court,

 7     or from someone else?  Which of these two versions is correct.

 8        A.   Well, you see, I remember clearly that the president of the court

 9     was Mr. Dzemo Botonjic, that the Prosecutor was Dragan Kojic, and the

10     judge was Enisa Botonjic.  In conversations with them, I know that Dzemo,

11     the president, told me on one occasion, and this was unofficial, that

12     they were waiting for the appointment of Mr. Kondic's precisely for this

13     reason, that that's why it was being delayed.  I won't repeat it again.

14        Q.   He said that to you; right?

15        A.   Yes.  We were talking in an informal conversation, and that's

16     when he told me that.  And there were stories going around in the police,

17     among the leadership, people were saying that we were going to get a new

18     chief, Vinko Kondic.

19        Q.   But the Adamovic trial on page 3 you said it was not him who told

20     you that, it was other people?

21        A.   Well, my memory is not getting better with time.

22        Q.   Well, let me see the ERN number of that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  While we are waiting, sorry to interrupt but

25     page 62, line 2, Mr. Karadzic said, "In your interview of 1998 ...,."

Page 19678

 1             I think he meant 2008, did he not?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise.  22073 is the

 3     document.

 4        Q.   Just briefly, Mr. Dzafic --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  It is not 22075, Mr. Karadzic?  You referred to the

 6     transcript in Adamovic case.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, maybe I was not

 8     quite clear.  One document is 22073, that's a statement from 2008.

 9     Whereas his testimony is 22074, testimony in the Adamovic trial, and

10     these two testimonies are different.  And I would like to find out what

11     is what, but, okay, we got an answer now.  May I continue?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you mentioned Dzemo Botonjic as president of the

15     court.  You mentioned another Botonjic as a judge.  Who is the other one?

16        A.   No.  As far as I remember, there was only one Botonjic working at

17     the court.  There was also a lady, Enisa Ducanovic, a judge at the time

18     and later she became a Prosecutor.

19        Q.   You also mentioned a lady by the surname of Botonjic working at

20     the court.  Did such a person exist?

21        A.   Not that I remember, Mr. Karadzic.  There was no lady by the name

22     of Botonjic working at the court.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 24, you made a correction today saying

24     that Dusan Stojakovic was not your deputy but your assistant.  What

25     happened with Dusan Stojakovic, your assistant?  What became of him?

Page 19679

 1        A.   It is true that he was assistant commander, appointed by the

 2     chief, Vinko Kondic.  Now, this question what became of Stojakovic, I can

 3     only answer by explaining this:  After my removal from the police on

 4     22 May 1992, with my wife who was also removed from her work, and with

 5     two children who were attending primary school, and that particular

 6     school year was ended prematurely, one or two months earlier than normal,

 7     I went to my native village of Sanica, and I stayed there until the day

 8     of my arrest, 1 June.  As to all the things that happened on 27 May, when

 9     my former colleague Dusan Stojakovic, was killed in the neighbourhood of

10     Krasulje, I don't know.  There were all kinds of stories and rumours

11     circulating, and the investigation was conducted by the people who were

12     then employed at the police station of Kljuc.

13        Q.   But one indisputable fact remains that he was killed in a Muslim

14     neighbourhood?

15        A.   He was killed on the road, Pudin Han to Sanski Most, just outside

16     the settlement of Krasulje, somewhere there.

17        Q.   And that's one of those settlements that you described as

18     non-Serb?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that your party, just after the elections

21     and after your appointment, put pressure on you to balance out the ethnic

22     composition of the police force?

23        A.   There were talks between parties, and I was sent a letter saying

24     that I should balance the ethnic composition of the senior staff in the

25     police, because Kljuc municipality had an area of 800.000 square metres,

Page 19680

 1     and a population that is 7.000.  There were 42 per cent Muslims and much

 2     less Serbs, but that was not reflected among the senior staff in the

 3     police, although it all depends on what you define as senior post.  Out

 4     of nine senior posts, only two were occupied by Muslims, and that's why

 5     this letter, this circular, came that the ethnic composition among the

 6     senior staff should be balanced, but the chief, Vinko Kondic, did not

 7     comply.  On the contrary.

 8        Q.   So even after -- even before the elections, you were both acting

 9     chief and commander of the station, and during your tenure, the ethnic

10     composition of the senior staff was not balanced?

11        A.   Mr. Karadzic, for a short period, even before the multi-party

12     elections, I was acting chief, but that was not for long.  That was just

13     two or three months, because the chief was suspended at the time and

14     I was acting chief very briefly.

15        Q.   Which chief was suspended?

16        A.   That was president of the court, Rajko Dakic.

17        Q.   So you actually inherited this imbalance from the Socialist

18     period, from the previous regime, and your political party asked you to

19     make adjustments?

20        A.   They asked Vinko to do that because in my particular position

21     I could not change anything in the personnel composition of the police.

22        Q.   You said that in the Adamovic case, 65 ter 22074, page 7, the ERN

23     number is 0623-0511 [as interpreted].  You said the party to which

24     I belonged wanted to balance the ethnic composition also among the senior

25     staff and all the other employees of the station.

Page 19681

 1        A.   Let me just find it.

 2        Q.   Isn't that right?

 3        A.   Generally speaking, yes, although putting it this way, perhaps it

 4     should have been phrased differently but, basically, yes.

 5        Q.   Considering that those were professionals who were employed, you

 6     were supposed to dismiss a number of people and hire another number of

 7     people?

 8        A.   You couldn't say that really because, at the police station the

 9     commander of the section or the squad, the police, was a Muslim and we

10     were supposed to hire in his place somebody of the same ethnicity but we

11     instead hired a commander of a different ethnic group, Milan Tomic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You speak about that in paragraph 25 of your

13     amalgamated statement, which reflects part of your testimony in that

14     case, and you say that this Sejdo Adzimovic was replaced by a Serb by the

15     name of Tomic.  Isn't it rather the case that Tomic did not replace him,

16     the other man was retired?

17        A.   Adzimovic was retired, yes.

18        Q.   So he was not replaced in order to appoint Tomic?

19        A.   Well, if you retire, you're not really replaced, so, yes, you're

20     right.  I don't know why this word is suddenly so important but I see

21     it's important.  Anyway, it's not up to me.  It's up to the person who

22     took the statement.

23        Q.   But what was the composition of the police station in that local

24     commune?

25        A.   You mean in the entire municipality of Kljuc or in the police

Page 19682

 1     station.

 2        Q.   The police station.

 3        A.   Well, as for the police station, at the police station, sometimes

 4     had a staff of only six to eight.  Half would be one group, half of the

 5     other, but I can't really answer this precisely because personnel changes

 6     were frequent.  Some people moved to the police station in Kljuc.  And

 7     you know the ethnic composition of the local commune of Sanica, at least

 8     I think you know.

 9        Q.   It's majority Muslim, but is it true that the majority of the

10     police personnel was also Muslim?

11        A.   Sometimes it was 50/50.  Sometimes there was one Bosniak more

12     than the number of Serbs.  As far as I remember, it was half/half.

13        Q.   In paragraph 26, you talk about the changes in the police station

14     in Kljuc, and you say somewhere in line 4 that Kondic had the door to his

15     office closed all the time and you go on to say that he received frequent

16     visits by Veljko Kondic and Jovo Banjac and you enumerate all the Serbs

17     in that paragraph 26, and then you say that he never told you what was

18     discussed at those meetings.  You say also that you had -- you saw

19     President Banjac visit Veljko Kondic a number of times.  Why is that

20     unusual, Mr. Dzafic?  Why is it unusual for the president of the

21     municipality to visit the chief of the police?

22        A.   It wouldn't have been unusual if it had happened in our working

23     hours, and if I, as police station commander, had also been invited.

24        Q.   But did you all socialise among yourselves over there?  Could

25     there have been private encounters?

Page 19683

 1        A.   Well, I knew Mr. Veljko and Mr. Jovo both privately and from

 2     work.

 3        Q.   What I'm trying to say is that paragraph 26 makes certain

 4     implications.  For one, that Serbs were seeing each other, that the chief

 5     did not inform you of his discussions with these people, and there is

 6     another implication, that you were keeping an eye on the Serbs and

 7     perhaps they were keeping an eye on you?

 8        A.   I can say that I wasn't keep an eye on anyone.  I wasn't keeping

 9     tabs but from all my earlier experience I was able to make a judgement

10     when the chief of the station was justified in talking to the president

11     of the municipality without my knowledge.  However, there were certain

12     matters that I should have been informed of, instead of having my deputy

13     attend those meetings and do this work that actually belonged to me.

14        Q.   From all of this, do you agree that with the appointment of

15     Vinko Kondic, you lost a more important position of the chief, and

16     remained just commander, and that you were in a rivalry with Kondic?

17        A.   Again, there are several questions in one.  Let me take them one

18     by one.  I was actually relieved when Kondic took over the position of

19     chief, because I didn't have to do two jobs at once any more.

20             Second, I never felt there was any rivalry between me as

21     commander and Mr. Kondic.  All I wanted was good co-operation and good

22     work, professional work, in a lawful manner, as I had been taught and

23     trained.  Because I was commended and awarded with the highest awards

24     that could be obtained at the Ministry of the Interior for my prior work.

25        Q.   In paragraph 29, which is part of your testimony, you say that

Page 19684

 1     there had been cases of contradictory orders, from Banja Luka and from

 2     Sarajevo, mutually contradictory orders.  Did that really happen?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   How do you explain that?  How did orders come to be

 5     contradictory?

 6        A.   I'll try to explain it in very simple terms.  I remember well one

 7     dispatch --

 8        Q.   I thought it was 29.  I can check but it could also be 30.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Dzafic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to give you an example

11     that I remember very clearly, to explain those contradictory orders,

12     dispatches from Banja Luka and dispatches from Sarajevo.  Early in April,

13     I don't know exactly when but I was still working, and it was on a night

14     shift, a dispatch came from the Security Services Centre Banja Luka,

15     addressed directly to the chief, asking us to send to Bosanska Krupa a

16     team of I don't know exactly how many policemen to assist them, but the

17     policemen should be exclusively Serbs because they had problems of I

18     don't know what nature, it doesn't matter now, and I just happened to see

19     this dispatch.  The operator showed it to me.  And that operator also had

20     certain problems with the chief.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   Well, later -- I don't know if you want to hear about this.

23        Q.   I want to know if the public security station in Kljuc was part

24     of the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka.

25        A.   Naturally it was but those dispatches and those orders, I called

Page 19685

 1     Sarajevo, by the way, and they were astonished by that dispatch.

 2        Q.   Well, that was helpful.  You say that you fell under the

 3     jurisdiction of the security services centre in Banja Luka, and yet you

 4     communicated directly with Sarajevo, circumventing your own CSB and your

 5     own chief.

 6        A.   Those were not communications of God knows what importance, but

 7     I was just talking to them to see what I'm supposed to do.  Why I, as a

 8     commander, was left out of the loop?  Why wasn't I supposed to know about

 9     this dispatch.

10        Q.   But you were bypassing the chief, Vinko Kondic, and you also

11     circumvented your CSB in Banja Luka?

12        A.   Well, the main command was in Sarajevo, Mr. Karadzic.

13        Q.   Command has its own chain, doesn't it?

14        A.   Yes.  There is a chain of command, but if a lower-level decision

15     is not lawful, is not regular, then I think one must seek a second

16     opinion from the higher command.

17        Q.   So we do agree there is a chain of command.  Is there also a

18     chain of reporting?

19        A.   Of course.

20        Q.   Do we agree that this chain should not be broken?  You always go

21     to your immediate superior?

22        A.   Generally speaking, yes.

23        Q.   However, you had these contacts with Sarajevo.  To whom did you

24     talk in Sarajevo, circumventing Kondic and Zupljanin?

25        A.   Any contacts I had were with the inspector who was in charge of

Page 19686

 1     inspection and auditing of the police station in Kljuc, who came once a

 2     year for an annual inspection.  I don't remember the name of that

 3     inspector but on one occasion he -- or, rather, Mr. Avdo Hebib contacted

 4     me directly when the refugees from Knin were passing through Kljuc and

 5     the dispatch was sent to tell us that we should let this convoy pass

 6     through Kljuc.

 7        Q.   We will come to that.  But you have stated that you communicated

 8     directly with Mr. Avdo Hebib, who was assistant minister for the police.

 9        A.   I just told you, yes, not every day but as required.

10        Q.   Weren't you breaking the chain of command and the chain of

11     reporting by doing so?

12        A.   It all depends on the circumstances I was in.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember receiving, on 29 April -- in fact,

14     did you also receive on 12 April an order from Hasan Efendic to start an

15     attack against the JNA and the Bosnian Serbs?

16        A.   No.  I don't recall any such document, nor do I know

17     Hasan Efendic to this day.

18        Q.   Could we briefly show to the witness D400?  Towards the end of

19     April, did you receive from your minister a directive, an order, to start

20     a war against the JNA?  Could you take a look, to all security services

21     centres, to all public security stations, and to the SUP of Sarajevo.

22     Are you familiar with this document?  It's an order dated 29 April 1992,

23     the presidency had accepted this decision of their own

24     Territorial Defence, and it was sent to you through the ministry?

25        A.   This is the first time I see it, Mr. Karadzic.  I've never seen

Page 19687

 1     this before and I don't know what's written in it.

 2        Q.   Can you see that it says, on the 27th of April, it was adopted.

 3     Do you know what was going on in the valley of the Sana river on 24 April

 4     and 27 April?  Do you know what was going on in Prijedor, in Sanski Most?

 5        A.   No, I don't remember.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it the break now or has the schedule changed?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you continue for three minutes more?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In paragraph 32, you speak about check-points and you say they

11     were set up in the second half or in the autumn of 1991; right?

12        A.   If that's what my statement says, then it's correct.

13        Q.   Do you agree that you stated there were these check-points at the

14     access -- at the entry point to Kljuc?

15        A.   Yes, there were check-points.

16        Q.   Is it true that they were manned by joint, mixed police patrols

17     and there were also military policemen and servicemen on these teams?

18        A.   In the beginning, there were only professional policemen and

19     reserve policemen, and then the military police and the army joined in.

20        Q.   Did this coincide with the outbreak of the war in Croatia?

21        A.   Yes.  It was around that time.

22        Q.   Thank you.  The routes of arms smuggling, desertion from the

23     army, the travel of sabotage groups, do they lead through Kljuc as well

24     as other municipalities in Krajina?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19688

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Was there any arms smuggling?  Were there deserters

 2     and renegades and those elements out of control at that time?

 3        A.   There were many cases of soldiers returning from the war in

 4     Croatia, reservists who were natives of Kljuc, who did not return their

 5     weapons, who kept them, and then disturbed law and order and that was a

 6     threat to the safety of the citizens and the police had to intervene.

 7        Q.   That was the police of Kljuc and they were later joined by the

 8     military police and army troops to deal with the problem?

 9        A.   Yes, that was one problem but there were also other problems, and

10     those problems were not dealt with properly at the beginning.  The police

11     should have taken weapons away from such people who were shooting around

12     and disturbing peace.  Active police would indeed seize those weapons

13     from such people.  But after two or three days, Mr. Vinko would return

14     the weapons to such former soldiers or fighters or deserters.

15        Q.   Or he would return it to the army, the military police; is that

16     right?

17        A.   Yes, to the military police.  After a day or two the same weapons

18     would then find -- be found with those members, the same ones from whom

19     it was confiscated.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Break, is it?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Dzafic, we will have a break for an hour

23     and resume at 1.30.

24                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

Page 19689

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you're an expert on All People's Defence.  That is

 5     indeed your profession; correct?

 6        A.   I graduated from the faculty of political sciences, the

 7     department for national defence and protection.  Now, whether I'm an

 8     expert in that, well, I leave that to you.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In respect of these measures, the surveillance and

10     control, you are competent to actually state whether, in view of the

11     imminent threat of war, these check-points were in fact justifiable, in

12     order to make sure that controls and checks were made to stop illegal

13     trafficking of weapons and so on?

14        A.   Well, I was never informed of the existence of the check-points.

15     I learned about the check-points and of the existence of an order to that

16     effect, to establish check-points, in other words, and I only learned of

17     that here as a witness.  Now, the law was complied with consistently.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, would you agree with me that the civilian police

19     was not authorised to search and stop military personnel; correct?

20        A.   The civilian police did have the right to intervene in matters

21     involving military personnel but then they would have to inform the

22     military police immediately of such incidents.

23        Q.   Is it correct that the civilian police can intervene only in the

24     course of the commission of a criminal act?  As soon as that criminal act

25     is over, they would have to transfer the case to the military police;

Page 19690

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Well, I'm not sure I understood your question.  Would you please

 3     repeat it?

 4        Q.   If the civilian police were to actually intercept a military

 5     person in the act of committing a criminal offence, they would be

 6     authorised to intervene, but then, outside of that, they would have to

 7     refer the case to the military police?

 8        A.   Well, yes.  In the cases of, let's say, traffic accidents and

 9     similar matters, they would have that authority.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, would we agree that the police and the military,

11     especially in the imminent threat of war, are part and parcel of an

12     overall system of defence of any given country?

13        A.   Well, the police and the military were part of the armed forces

14     of our former common country.

15        Q.   They were part of one unique system; correct?  One unified

16     system?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Is it true that people wanted, and called for, mixed check-points

19     and for mixed police patrols where the patrols would consist of members

20     of all three ethnic groups?

21        A.   Well, yes.  And we tried to implement that, and we actually were

22     successful for a while, and that was very effective as a tool, whenever

23     we had these mixed patrols consisting of police officers from each one of

24     these ethnic groups.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And then at one point in time they ceased to be mixed

Page 19691

 1     patrols; correct?

 2        A.   Well, after certain incidents that occurred, problems arose, and

 3     then for a while this system was no longer effective and it ceased

 4     altogether.

 5        Q.   And this happened when police officers of Muslim ethnicity

 6     refused to declare their loyalty and implement the laws of

 7     Republika Srpska; correct?

 8        A.   Well, you see, you've put several questions to me.  I can say

 9     this:  On two occasions, at two meetings, we were forced to sign a

10     loyalty oath to the Serb authorities, but we refused to do that.  After

11     our second refusal, we were all dismissed and sent home.

12        Q.   Well, let's clarify things a bit.  When you started working for

13     the police, did you have to take an oath, an oath of office?

14        A.   Well, yes, of course, naturally.

15        Q.   And then, when Republika Srpska was established, you were offered

16     to do that.  Were you forced to sign an oath of loyalty, or were you

17     offered to sign it and continue with your work?

18        A.   Well, it was offered to us to sign the loyalty oath, but in the

19     environment that existed at the time, and all the discussions going on

20     and so on, our impression was that it was, in fact, being imposed on us.

21        Q.   Well, but let's see this.  Did the Serbs have to sign an oath of

22     loyalty?

23        A.   Well, yes, of course, the Serbs, too, signed oaths of loyalty.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And that was one of the conditions for their being

25     able to be employed in the police force; correct?

Page 19692

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You were then placed on furlough of a couple of weeks

 3     and then you were asked again whether you were willing to sign this oath

 4     of loyalty and continue or resume your office?

 5        A.   Well, the first meeting was held on the 7th of May, and the

 6     second meeting was held around the 21st or the 22nd of May.  And after

 7     this second meeting, we were sent home.  We were fired.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  We will revisit this issue.

 9             But now let's take a look at paragraph 35 of your statement.  You

10     state there that the declaration of independence of Slovenia and Croatia

11     had a negative effect on the quota system where there were differences

12     between --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  They had a negative

14     effect on Kljuc.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And the consequence was that it would not join the rump

17     Yugoslavia and would go against the Serb wishes to remain within

18     Yugoslavia.  Now, can we just clarify the terminology here:  Why would

19     Bosnia have to join Yugoslavia when it was already a member of

20     Yugoslavia?  That is a contradiction, isn't it?

21        A.   Well, I don't have an answer to that question.

22        Q.   Thank you.  But, legally, this is relevant.  Now, you say that

23     the position of the Bosnian Presidency was not to join the rump

24     Yugoslavia.  However, legally speaking, Bosnia was already part of

25     Yugoslavia, and it wasn't necessary for it to join, and that was not a

Page 19693

 1     request or a call for Bosnia to join rump Yugoslavia but, rather, to

 2     leave it; isn't that correct?

 3        A.   Well, it's a question of terminology.

 4        Q.   Well, in that case, I believe we should leave in this paragraph

 5     the word "to remain."  So the position of the Bosnian Presidency was that

 6     they refused to remain in the rump Yugoslavia rather than not to join the

 7     rump Yugoslavia; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In other words, the Bosnian Presidency was calling

10     for the -- an amendment to the constitution or, rather, the change in the

11     constitutional position of Bosnia within Yugoslavia?

12        A.   Well, for me, that's high-level politics.  Don't ask me about

13     that.  You're asking about the Presidency's decision.  Don't.  I don't

14     know anything about that, believe me.  At the time when I was employed,

15     I never thought about high-level politics, even at the time when I was in

16     this position and let alone now.  So, please, would you refrain from

17     these questions.

18        Q.   Well, thank you, Mr. Dzafic.  I would gladly do so; however, your

19     paragraph 35 actually introduces that topic.  So I would like to explore

20     whether --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Does it make a very big difference whether or not

22     the witness used the words "join" or "remain"?  I would like you to come

23     to the real issues.  Your time is limited.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Well, then, would you please

25     address this with the Prosecutor because they should not include

Page 19694

 1     irrelevant issues in an exhibit of theirs, because if it's irrelevant or

 2     insignificant, why did it find its place in paragraph 35?

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Now, in paragraph 36, Witness, you talk about rumours and stories

 5     going around about Serbs being armed and that you yourself did not see

 6     that for yourself but you heard of it from some police officers; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you start an investigation into that issue?

 9        A.   No.  Because in those circumstances it was impossible to launch

10     an investigation into such a thing.

11        Q.   Was it impossible to launch an investigation perhaps because the

12     JNA was, in fact, establishing its reserve units on the ground?

13        A.   Well, I don't think -- or, rather, I think it was impossible to

14     launch an investigation because the outcome would have been negative

15     anyway because no one, no civilians in the area where this was going on,

16     was willing to talk about this.

17        Q.   Thank you.  But you say that there were helicopters involved,

18     that these young men went to Croatia in an organised manner to take part

19     in combat there.  Isn't that something that is reminiscent of reserve

20     units in the JNA and which are on stand-by and once they're called up

21     they would be deployed?  Isn't that the case?

22        A.   Well, let's put it that way, yeah.  Maybe you could say so.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in the same paragraph, you say that occasionally

24     police officers of Serb nationality went to Knin for training, but did

25     you know that the SDA had long before that sent Muslims for training to

Page 19695

 1     the Croatian MUP and ZNG long before that?

 2        A.   Well, this is a two-pronged question.  As for the first part, it

 3     is correct that people were sent from Kljuc without my having any

 4     knowledge of it, as the police commander.  People were sent for police

 5     training to Knin, and these were -- many of these people had police

 6     records, were criminals.  I know of that for sure.

 7             Now, as for the other part of the question, whether the police

 8     was sent for training to Croatia, police officers of Muslim ethnicity,

 9     I put it to you that there were no such cases in Kljuc, nor do I know of

10     any such cases, nor -- but there were some cases in other municipalities

11     perhaps.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Are you trying to say that police cadets are

13     criminals?

14        A.   No.  Mr. Karadzic, in order for a person to be admitted as a

15     police cadet, they would have to be checked.  There would have to be a

16     background check done.  And these ten or so police officers who had been

17     sent to Knin for training, they were not cadets.  They were grown men.

18     They were sent from various companies and work organisations to be

19     trained in Knin.

20             [No interpretation]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness's

22     answer.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did the Muslims apply for this and then were denied?

25        A.   Well, as far as I know, or, in any case, I didn't know anything

Page 19696

 1     of any lists or their being sent for training.  I only learnt about it

 2     when they started coming home for weekends, over the weekend, to visit

 3     their families.  I did not send any police officers of Muslim ethnicity

 4     to any courses, so I don't have information about that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in paragraph 36 you talk about police cadets and

 6     that they applied voluntarily and that Muslims did not apply or report.

 7     Now, do you know whether there was a case that a Muslim person applied to

 8     be sent to Knin and was refused?

 9        A.   I don't have any information to that effect.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, is it correct that you sent mostly Muslims to

11     Vrace in Sarajevo for training?

12        A.   There was a police academy at Vrace, and a select group of cadets

13     from Kljuc municipality was sent to that academy.  Now, whether they were

14     predominantly Muslim or of other ethnicity, I don't know.  Now, had they

15     been Muslims predominantly, the ethnic break-up -- the ethnic composition

16     would not be as it was on the 21st of April when no Serbs were fired.

17        Q.   Now, do you know what the ethnic composition of the reserve

18     police force was?

19        A.   I don't.

20        Q.   Now, you discussed the arming of Serbs, but did you know anything

21     about the arming of Muslims at the time?

22        A.   Well, the arming of either group was illegal.  It was difficult

23     to obtain any information about either group, and in any case such

24     information would not reach me, but there was -- weapons were distributed

25     to non-Bosniak villages.

Page 19697

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you know - and I believe that you talked

 2     about this - did you know that there was the establishment of two

 3     municipalities of Kljuc were -- was underway?

 4        A.   I don't know anything about the division of the territory of the

 5     municipality of Kljuc.  There were stories and gossip going around, but

 6     there was no division for as long as I was in Kljuc, at least.

 7        Q.   Was the municipality of Bosnian Kljuc ever declared as such, as

 8     well as the Territorial Defence of Bosnian Kljuc?

 9        A.   I learned later that Omer Filipovic was appointed commander of

10     the Territorial Defence of Kljuc.  I did not have an occasion to see

11     anything.  Later on, in the camp, after I was arrested, I learned all

12     that.  I don't know what territory was Serb and what territory was

13     Muslim.  I didn't know it then.  I did not have an occasion to see that

14     document.  I was not even aware of any such document.

15        Q.   Thank you.  However, is that the same Omer Filipovic who was the

16     vice-president of the joint assembly?

17        A.   Yes.  That's the same person.

18        Q.   You were number one man in the police from the Muslim ethnic

19     group.  Were you duty-bound to be a member of the staff of the

20     Territorial Defence?

21        A.   Nobody ever asked me to join.  Nobody ever told me anything about

22     that staff, the staff of the Territorial Defence.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   Go ahead.

25        Q.   Can we now look at D1730.  That's a document that has already

Page 19698

 1     been admitted.  I would like to jog your memory and I would like you to

 2     tell me whether you know the people referred to in the document.  D1730.

 3     Do you see the document?  It's an Official Note.

 4        A.   I'm reading the document.

 5        Q.   Do you know these people, Omer Filipovic, Amir Avdic,

 6     Nevzat Djeric, and so on and so forth, the commanders?

 7        A.   I am looking at the document now.  I knew Mr. Filipovic.  I knew

 8     Amir Avdic less.  I didn't know Djeric at all.  As for Salih Salihovic,

 9     I didn't know him.  I knew another Salihovic, not this one.  I didn't

10     know of the existence of the staff of the so-called Bosanski Kljuc or

11     Bosnian Kljuc.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that before the new year the Muslim

13     municipality of Bosanski Kljuc was declared?

14        A.   No, I didn't know that.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 7842 --

17     or, rather, 17842.  17842.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Did you know Esad Bender?

20        A.   The first time I heard of Esad Bender, and I saw him, was at

21     Manjaca when he was killed.  That was at the Manjaca camp in number 1

22     barn.

23        Q.   Could you please look at this document.  He says in here that he

24     was not Omer and Mohamed Filipovic's body guard, that it was his brother.

25     And in the third paragraph he speaks about the purchase of weapons.  And

Page 19699

 1     he says that it was done upon the recommendation of Crisis Staffs.  Do

 2     you remember that every Muslim local commune had its own Crisis Staff?

 3        A.   As far as I know, Mr. Karadzic, where I was moving around, where

 4     I stayed, as far as I know, there were no Crisis Staffs.  There may have

 5     been some groups that looked after the safety of non-Serbian settlements

 6     and people.  That's possible.  And as for the staffs and their

 7     functioning, I didn't know anything about that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In the second paragraph, could you look at what it

 9     says.  There is reference to the purchase of weapons even as far as

10     Switzerland.  It says here that Asim Egrlic issued certificates or

11     documents on behalf of the party and then the weapons would be purchased.

12     Is that the same Asim Egrlic who was the president of the joint

13     Executive Board of the municipality?

14        A.   Well, look, again, this is a multi-pronged question.  I don't

15     know what Asim Egrlic did, but I know that after the election he did

16     discharge those duties.

17        Q.   Thank you.  At the end do you see where it says that Omer was

18     told that they had captured seven soldiers and that four of them were

19     killed?  That's the last sentence on this page.

20        A.   Look, I've never seen this document before.  It would be wrong

21     for me to give you my views of it or to discuss it.  There is no

22     signature, there is no stamp.  This was compiled by an authorised

23     official.  This is an operative document which may be accurate or not, so

24     it would be wrong for me to provide any comments upon this document.

25     I wouldn't do that.

Page 19700

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go to the following page.  He mentions the

 2     same names that are mentioned in your statement when you spoke about the

 3     arrest and the political life in your municipality.  And even your name

 4     is mentioned here in the third paragraph, perhaps the 15th line from the

 5     bottom of the page.

 6             In the second paragraph, it says that Esad thinks and according

 7     to Mohamed and Omer told him that the agreement between the Muslims and

 8     the Serbs would have been signed but that Alija and rightists did not

 9     want that?  Did you know that the MBO cooperated with us in order to sign

10     the historical agreements between the Serbs and the Muslims?  Did you

11     know that?

12        A.   No, I didn't hear any such thing.

13        Q.   Well, that was in July and August, and the whole of the state of

14     Bosnia reverberated with the talks about that agreement.  How come you

15     didn't hear anything about that in the media?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17        Q.   Okay.  Let's go on.  Let's see how he describes the Crisis Staff

18     that existed in the premises -- or, rather, it is known that once he

19     dropped by the SDA and found Omer Filipovic, Muhamed, Atif Dzafic, the

20     former commander, Asim Egrlic, Hamdija Ducanovic, Omer's wife Merima,

21     Fikret Balagic, and so on and so forth, many members of the Crisis Staff

22     among them.  Do you see that?

23        A.   Yes, I can see that.  I can see my name.  But this is not

24     correct.  At that time I did not attend any such meeting.  I'm telling

25     you now this is the signature of an authorised official, an authorised

Page 19701

 1     official whose signature is illegible.  This is just the result of some

 2     checks from the field which can be accurate or not.  We can discuss that.

 3     But as for me attending any such meeting, I can tell you that I didn't.

 4     You said that it was a Crisis Staff, but I really don't know.  I've never

 5     seen this before, and I'm testifying truthfully, under oath.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not --

 7        A.   Let me just tell you this, and I hope you will agree with me:  If

 8     this were correct and accurate, if this were accurate and if my name was

 9     correctly put here, I would not have returned alive from Manjaca,

10     Mr. Karadzic, and we would not have an occasion to talk today.  And

11     I claim this with full responsibility.  If anything could have been

12     pinned to my name, if there had been a document pinning some blame on me,

13     I would not have returned alive from Manjaca.  I am the only police

14     commander who survived Manjaca and returned from Manjaca alive.

15        Q.   I'm glad to hear that.  Thank you.  However, the Serbs knew that

16     about you on the 21st of June while you were at Manjaca.  And let's go on

17     reading.  It says at that meeting there were discussions and a decision

18     was reached that the headquarters of the Muslim --

19             JUDGE KWON:  We set a time -- amount of time for your

20     cross-examination.  That's why I let you continue.  But having heard from

21     the witness that he doesn't know anything about this, what's the point of

22     continuing to put questions in relation to document?  It's totally a

23     waste of time, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the last

25     sentence states that he was earmarked as the commander of the Muslim

Page 19702

 1     police station.  How come he didn't know anything about that?  I will

 2     accept it if he says he didn't.  But this is very important for his

 3     credibility and for painting the overall picture of the situation in

 4     Kljuc.

 5        Q.   Did you know that you were earmarked as the commander of the

 6     Muslim police station?  That's the last sentence in this document.

 7        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I didn't know.  Let's be very clear, very specific:

 8     I didn't know that I was earmarked for any such position.  If I had known

 9     this and, I repeat, if anybody else had known that, I would not have left

10     Manjaca alive.  There's no chance in hell that I would have left Manjaca

11     alive if anybody had had a discussion to that effect with me and if I had

12     accepted to be the police chief.

13        Q.   I'm denying this, Witness.  The Serbs knew it on the 21st, and

14     you still returned alive.  This statement was taken on the

15     21st of June, 1992.  And you were within their reach but they did not

16     touch you.  They didn't do anything to you; right?

17        A.   That's again the same question.

18        Q.   Very well.  Let's look at 1D4281.

19             Did you believe the Ministry of the Interior of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, not the Republika Srpska, but Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        A.   What do you mean when you say "believe"?  I worked for them.

22     I joined the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo, and I thought, I

23     believed, that if anything happened, that they would be the ones who

24     would discharge me of my duties.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Look at the document issued by the Ministry of the

Page 19703

 1     Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, State Security Service in Tuzla.  They

 2     received information from Omer Veladzic, who said that he had received

 3     400 rifles from the Croatian government, in June 1991, in Bosanska

 4     Dubica, which had a 70 per cent Serbian majority.  Junuz Bosic received

 5     400 rifles from Croatia, right, isn't that what it says here?  And then

 6     it says something about Kljuc further a bit down.  He says that the

 7     rifles were sold to Muslims in Kljuc at 800 German marks apiece and that

 8     this man made 320.000 German marks, and this can be confirmed by

 9     Smajil Draganovic from Kljuc and Rasim Kulenovic from Bosanska Dubica.

10     Did you know that in your municipality Muslims were purchasing rifles at

11     800 German marks each?

12        A.   When it comes to selling weapons and arming of Muslims in Kljuc,

13     I didn't have any information to that effect.  And this document was

14     issued in September 1993.  At that time, around 500 Muslims remained in

15     the territory of Kljuc, no more than that, Mr. Karadzic.

16        Q.   Well, that --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  I don't know how many permutations we've been

19     through with this, but the question Dr. Karadzic posed at the end of the

20     course is permissible, but the Court has admonished him repeatedly about

21     the use of such documents and we spent time hearing through his

22     recitation of the document which the Court has encouraged him -- of a

23     document of the type the Court has encouraged him not to use.  It's quite

24     a continually pointless exercise.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I disagree.  I'm not tendering

Page 19704

 1     this.  But the witness --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Reading out documents which will not be admitted is

 5     of no point, Mr. Karadzic, at all.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to confront the

 7     witness with the fact that right before his nose, where he was the

 8     commander of the police, weapons were --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you remember the conversation between

10     the Chamber -- well, not conversation, but debate between Chamber and

11     Mr. Robinson.  You should put your question first.  And if witness

12     denies, you can put some certain documents to a certain extent.  Reading

13     out documents which are not admitted without doubt is waste of time.  You

14     put your case -- question, or put your case to the witness.  Even if your

15     reading is to be reflected in the transcript, that means nothing.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

17     believe that I did that.  I asked the witness about the arming of Muslims

18     and he said that he didn't know anything about that.  I believe that in

19     his position he should have known about that.  And now we have a Muslim

20     source confirming that to have been the fact.  But I'll move on.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Just one sentence, if

22     I may.  Mr. Karadzic, you see, this was sent from the State Security

23     Service in Tuzla on the 17th of September, 1993.  At that time, I really

24     don't know where I was.  That was after Manjaca and after everything

25     else.  I was released from Manjaca and so on and so forth.

Page 19705

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  However, Mr. Dzafic, this person speaks about the

 3     events that had taken place in 1991.  Croatia sent weapons to Dubica and

 4     then the weapons were sold in Kljuc.  This is what the document is about.

 5        A.   Let me just say this:  I wasn't privy to that information.  As to

 6     whether such things were happening, whether the allegations are correct,

 7     this should be checked.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, as a person who's familiar with the

 9     Law on All People's Defence, is desertion a crime in our midst as

10     everywhere else in the world?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Sabotaging mobilisation, is that a crime?

13        A.   Well, you see, now you are -- under what conditions?  What?  In

14     principle, desertion is a crime.  In principle.  But under what

15     conditions, for what reasons?  I wouldn't go into that.  This is rather a

16     political matter, I would say.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And sabotaging a mobilisation drive, is that a crime?

18        A.   As far as I can remember, it was, it is, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let us see what you say in paragraph 38.  You mention

20     Mr. Izetbegovic, who anecdotally recommended that Muslims should not

21     respond to mobilisation calls.  He himself said that he would not

22     encourage his own son to respond.  The entire paragraph deals with the

23     fact that the Muslim population did not respond to mobilisation calls.

24     Is that correct?

25        A.   Listen, I was not involved in any mobilisations, and you have

Page 19706

 1     just paraphrased something that I heard on TV, in the media.  I heard

 2     that as something that Mr. Izetbegovic had stated, and I can't comment on

 3     that.

 4        Q.   However, you provided this statement, and you say that only a

 5     few -- or, rather, very few Muslims responded.  That's in your

 6     paragraph 38.  And it becomes clear from that paragraph that Muslims did

 7     not respond to call-ups and that they were inspired to do so by

 8     Mr. Izetbegovic; right?

 9        A.   When I was giving that statement, I said clearly that a certain

10     number of people enlisted.  When they got to their units and received

11     assignments, that's when they deserted.  And then the news spread across

12     Kljuc municipalities and other people were discouraged from responding to

13     mobilisation call-ups.

14        Q.   Then in paragraph 40 you called those soldiers Serb soldiers.  Is

15     it the case that in end 1991 those were Serb soldiers, or were they,

16     rather, soldiers of the JNA and they were Serb only because Croats and

17     Muslims failed to respond to call-ups?

18        A.   I don't have that statement before me.  I cannot comment.  There

19     are many issues at stake and many questions in one.

20        Q.   Paragraph 40.

21        A.   Repeat your question, please.

22        Q.   You say, towards the end of 1991, when Serb soldiers were

23     returning from the war in Croatia and so on and so forth.  I want to know

24     what you understand by the term "Serb soldiers."

25        A.   What is implied here under that term are reservists who had

Page 19707

 1     responded to the mobilisation call-up, who enlisted to go to war in

 2     Croatia.

 3        Q.   But the army is not the Serbian army, it's the JNA, isn't it?

 4        A.   They wore the old insignia of the former JNA army at that time,

 5     in that period.

 6        Q.   Then you said in the same paragraph that Radio Kljuc broadcast in

 7     a biassed manner, in favour of Serbs and preserving Yugoslavia and

 8     against secession; right?

 9        A.   I know Radio Kljuc was active.  Now, as to your specific

10     question, all I have is the English version.  I can't understand it.

11        Q.   But you have signed this statement, haven't you?

12        A.   Of course I did.

13        Q.   In this statement you also say that Serbs dug up their mortal

14     remains of dead Serbs outside churches and reburied them.  I have to make

15     this clear to the Trial Chamber.  Are Serbs crazy to dig up bones from

16     one grave and rebury them in another or was it the case that Serbs were

17     recovering for the first time the mortal remains of dead Serbs from

18     various pits and mass graves and buried them in proper graves?  Which is

19     the case?

20        A.   I did not look into that problem in any detail, but generally

21     speaking there were cases when those bones were dug up and Serbdom was

22     celebrated, and that increased tensions in Kljuc.  That only deteriorated

23     the general situation.

24        Q.   Is it the case that mortal remains were recovered from pits and

25     mass graves where they were initially put by the Ustasha and buried in

Page 19708

 1     proper graves, or was it the case that Serbs were taking bones out of one

 2     grave and buried them in another?

 3        A.   Well, I don't know much about it.  But following simple logic,

 4     I suppose they were recovered to be properly buried.

 5        Q.   On the editorial programming board of Radio Kljuc, were there any

 6     Muslims employed, including Omer Filipovic?

 7        A.   Omer Filipovic was a teacher of history and the history of

 8     language at the secondary school.  I don't know if he was involved in

 9     Radio Kljuc.  Maybe he was providing some news items for a while, but I

10     don't think he was employed there.

11        Q.   Well, the programming board does not consist necessarily of

12     full-time staff.  Those could be prominent citizens from the town.

13        A.   I don't think -- I don't remember he was in the programming

14     board.

15        Q.   But he often spoke on Radio Kljuc.

16        A.   I don't know whether he was there often or not, but he was

17     occasionally a guest in various programmes.

18        Q.   In paragraph 42, you speak of the murder of Senad Dervisevic, a

19     Muslim in his 20s, who was killed by gunfire from an automatic rifle, and

20     you say that it had a significant impact on interethnic relations.

21        A.   Again, there are two or three questions in one.  This murder did

22     happen, the killing of Senad Dervisevic, and I, as police commander,

23     attended the on-site investigation, and it is true that this reservist

24     Boro Grujic killed him with an automatic rifle.  The police of Kljuc

25     started the on-site investigation and then it was taken over by

Page 19709

 1     CSB Banja Luka.  I don't know how it ended, but I know that interethnic

 2     relations had already been disturbed, and this killing occurred suddenly.

 3     It had all started with a conversation on the high streets.  This man was

 4     a civilian and the soldier who killed him was a reservist.

 5        Q.   They had a quarrel, this reservist of the JNA killed him, you

 6     attended the on-site investigation which was then handed over to the

 7     army, but after the war the man was tried and convicted?

 8        A.   Yes.  I learned later, after the war, that his trial was taken up

 9     again.

10        Q.   You mentioned the murder of Admir Selmanovic in paragraph 73.

11     And because it features in your statement, I suppose it has some impact

12     on interethnic relations.

13        A.   At the time, it had.

14        Q.   This investigation was headed by a Muslim, Muharem Muheljic?

15        A.   First of all, it was an inspector who first came to the site.  We

16     have already discussed this and agreed that serious crimes were taken

17     over by the CSB Banja Luka, and they took over this case as well.

18        Q.   But in this paragraph, in line 6 and 7, you say that the Muslim

19     inspector from Kljuc, Muharem Muheljic, led the investigation, and after

20     the initial investigation nothing happened, no suspects were found.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And nothing was done.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me for interrupting, Your Honour, but

25     Mr. Karadzic said at paragraph 73.  It's 43.

Page 19710

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must have enunciated poorly.

 3     I thought I said 43.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Please continue, Mr. Dzafic.  You said the investigation was not

 6     completed and no suspects were found.  But now you have different

 7     information.

 8        A.   I don't have any different information, but I stand behind what

 9     I said earlier, that the investigation was continued by the

10     CSB Banja Luka, all the forensic analysis and expertise of weapons,

11     fingerprints, et cetera.  I don't know why it says here that this

12     Muhamed Muheljic conducted it.  He was the only -- he was the one who

13     came first to the site, but it was taken over later by CSB Banja Luka.

14        Q.   How about this paragraph 43, is it correct in its entirety or are

15     there other corrections to make?

16        A.   Well, I'm looking at it in English.  I don't understand all of

17     it, but the point is that this Selmanovic man was killed with an

18     automatic weapon, the police in Kljuc was informed first, the on-site

19     investigation began, and early the next morning it was taken over by the

20     CSB Banja Luka.  And further investigation led to nothing.

21        Q.   But if we asked the Trial Chamber now, they would be convinced,

22     I'm sure, that this killing is considered to have been committed by the

23     Serbs.  But I will read to you from the --

24             [In English] "The Muslim inspector from Kljuc, Muharem Muheljic,

25     conducted the investigations.  After this brief investigation, there was

Page 19711

 1     no further investigation and no one was ever arrested.  There was never a

 2     suspect arrested.  The investigation was not thorough, even though there

 3     were leads."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And, now, could we call up

 5     65 ter 890.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Who was a suspect in this case, although you say there were no

 8     suspects?

 9        A.   I don't remember such details, really.  Although I would very

10     much wish to be of assistance, I can't.  It was a long time ago, after

11     all.

12        Q.   As a policeman, do you know how many murder cases are generally

13     solved by good police forces throughout the world?  What is the

14     percentage?

15        A.   Anything beyond 35, 40 per cent, or up to 50 per cent, is

16     considered to be good in European countries.

17        Q.   Please look at this document from the Ministry of the Interior.

18     Public security station Kljuc.  It says serious crimes committed by

19     unidentified perpetrators, and the first paragraph refers to the killing

20     of Admir Selmanovic in a place called Sanica on 27 April 1992, killed by

21     gunfire, six entry and exit wounds on the body, motive unknown.  On

22     suspicion that they have committed the crime, Mehmed Karadzic and

23     Fahim Alibegovic were remanded in custody after three days, but, for lack

24     of evidence, the aforementioned were released after this term.

25             Is it normally the case that when more evidence is collected, the

Page 19712

 1     case can be taken up again?

 2        A.   This was very professionally phrased, which does not mean that

 3     this Mehmed Karadzic and Alibegovic really committed the murder.  But

 4     this paragraph was really professionally phrased.

 5        Q.   Well, they were your disciples, so they must have phrased it

 6     professionally.  Just tell me:  Are these Karadzic and Alibegovic

 7     Muslims?

 8        A.   You know, this surname Karadzic is so common.  I have a nephew by

 9     the surname Karadzic.  And there was a chief in Jajce, Midhat Karadzic.

10        Q.   But do we agree that these suspects are both Muslims?

11        A.   Yes, those suspects were Muslims.  But look at when this was

12     written, 23rd November 1992, when it was all mono-ethnic.

13        Q.   But look at this, sir.  This is a response to a query from the

14     ministry, from the centre in Banja Luka, a query concerning serious

15     crimes between 1st January and 20th November.

16        A.   I agree.  I agree.  That's correct.  It's an overview, a survey.

17     But it doesn't mean that it hasn't been doctored, cooked.

18        Q.   Well, they released these men for lack of evidence.  Why would it

19     be doctored?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said "all right" and it

21     hasn't been recorded.  Can this be admitted?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dzafic, did you want to say something?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said "all right," it was

24     just something that, you know, came out at the end of this exchange, but

25     I said the only thing I had to say, namely that the text was written by a

Page 19713

 1     professional policeman.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1744.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now take a quick look at

 5     D1733.  D1733.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And I believe that at the time you were still commander of this

 8     station.  Here we see a record of this on-site investigation, and I would

 9     just like you to confirm for us whether these people were your employees.

10     Now, please take a look at this.  On the 28th, in other words on the next

11     day, an on-site investigation was conducted, the victim was

12     Admir Selmanovic, and this investigation was conducted by --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name of the

14     person who conducted the investigation.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now, could you please confirm for us that under number 3 we see

17     the name of a Muslim, Muharem Muheljic and under number 5 we have another

18     Muslim, Mirsad Hasanagic?

19        A.   I don't see the document.  I don't have the document before me.

20        Q.   You do.  It's on the screen.

21        A.   I don't.  I have nothing.

22             JUDGE KWON:  It's 1D4289, which is one of the listed documents.

23     It's a minute of on-site investigation.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   If it can help, I will read it for you.  The investigation was

Page 19714

 1     conducted by Botonjic, Dzemal, an investigating judge.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  This is a document already admitted.  Let him read

 3     it and put your question briefly.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   The date on this document is the 28th of April and at the time

 7     you were still commander; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you confirm that you know that this person,

10     Dzemal Botonjic actually went out on site and conducted an on-site

11     investigation and that he was a Muslim?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do we see under number 3 the name of

14     Muhamir [as interpreted] Muheljic who was also a Muslim?

15        A.   Yes, and he's a forensic technician.

16        Q.   And -- thank you -- and under number 5 we have the name of

17     Mirsad Hasanagic, also a Muslim; correct?

18        A.   Well, he should be, judging by his first and last name.  But he

19     was a reserve police officer.

20        Q.   Thank you.  We've already admitted this document.  But it shows

21     that the investigation was conducted at the time, and there is a

22     description of what was done, and you confirm this; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So, Mr. Dzafic, can we agree on the following:  This

25     was not attributed to Serbs, there was no cover-up, and there was an

Page 19715

 1     ethnically mixed team of investigators who went on site; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.

 4             Please take a look at paragraph 44, where I'm a bit confused

 5     because you say that in February 1992 a company of reservists of the

 6     Serbian JNA was stationed at -- on the premises of the Sip company in

 7     Kljuc.  Now, how are we to understand the Serbian JNA, that those are

 8     your words, is that an error? because it was the JNA.

 9        A.   Well, it says here that this was a work unit in

10     Sipa [phoen] Kljuc.  The premises of that plant were some 15 kilometres

11     away from Kljuc.  Now, in that area there was a formation unit.  Now,

12     whether it was a company or a battalion-strong unit, I don't know, but

13     they were stationed there for a while and exercised, and they had meals

14     at the Laniste work organisation.  They had uniforms of the former JNA,

15     but whether they were JNA members or reserve members, I don't know.  But

16     in any case, the incident mentioned here involved a reservist.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I just needed to clarify the adjective used there,

18     "Serbian JNA."  Now, do you recall that among the five JNA soldiers who

19     were killed toward the end of May in Kljuc there were two Yugoslav

20     Albanians who were serving the army at the time?

21        A.   I've already told you, and I will repeat it:  When this incident

22     occurred in Kljuc, there was a column of JNA members.  This was on the

23     27th of May.  I was in Sanica at the time.  And as I learned later, three

24     soldiers succumbed to the injuries, whereas five were wounded.  I don't

25     know the ethnic composition of those soldiers.  I don't know, nor did

Page 19716

 1     I have occasion to hear, anything about it or see anything that would

 2     show it.

 3        Q.   Okay.  But let's just agree on what you've said here.  Would you

 4     withdraw the "Serbian" from the "Serbian JNA" phrase that you used and

 5     leave it at just "JNA"?

 6        A.   Well, I've been trying to recall the events of the time and in

 7     any case my conclusion is that this incident involved reservists of the

 8     army.  I don't know from which unit, whether it was a company or a

 9     battalion, but they were from other municipalities, not from the Kljuc

10     municipality.

11        Q.   But they were a JNA unit; right?

12        A.   Well, I really don't know.  At this point in time it's hard to

13     judge, and I can't say either way.  I don't want to err.

14        Q.   Thank you.  But had it been anything other than the JNA, wouldn't

15     the whole world have resonated of this?  Because, remember, what other

16     army could it have been other than the JNA?  What other --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I would like you to proceed.  What

18     significance would it have in terms of your indictment?  Come to the

19     issues.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will, Your Excellency, but this

21     long paragraph, 44, is not there by error, and it implies that there was

22     a Serbian army and they -- that their conduct was as described here.  And

23     I would appreciate it if your comments were also addressed to the

24     Prosecution, not just to the Defence.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's worth commenting that in the future, in

Page 19717

 1     compiling the amalgamated statement, the Prosecution should try to not --

 2     try not to contain peripheral issues, but that's a separate issue.

 3             You have less than 25 minutes to conclude.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have only been

 5     able to deal with less than 50 paragraphs.  There are 140 here.  How do

 6     you expect me to complete my examination?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber allowed you to have two and a half hours

 8     with this witness.  It is for you how to spend that time allotted to you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's precisely -- that's

10     precisely what the issue is.  There are so many peripheral issues.  And

11     had this statement been more focused, then I wouldn't have had this

12     problem.  But I will try to skip over certain matters.  But I would just

13     like to say for the record that whatever I do skip, it should not be

14     considered that I did not challenge it.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Dzafic, please take a look at paragraphs 46 and 47.

17     I won't read them.  But this is one of those examples where you have

18     these contradictory orders.  Avdo Hebib reported to you that from Slunj

19     in Croatia and other areas where there were combat operations under way

20     there would be a long column of civilians coming through Kljuc and that

21     they should be allowed to move on to Central Bosnia.  Now, you received

22     this information, didn't you, but your boss, Vinko Kondic, considered

23     that those people should not be allowed through without any checks, and

24     he actually kept back some 60 or 70 able-bodied men and rounded them up

25     and sent them to Manjaca?

Page 19718

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Now, would you agree with me that with this -- this whole --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat his question,

 4     it was unclear.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your last question.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you agree that in this particular case people were coming from

 8     areas where there were combat operations under way, that among them there

 9     may have been some Croatian fighters, and that Avdo Hebib actually

10     bypassed both Banja Luka and the second man in Banja Luka where he

11     reported that this column should be allowed through.  Now, according to

12     you, was this a highly unusual occurrence, and was this irregular, in

13     fact?

14        A.   Well, in principle, yes.  But under ordinary circumstances, I

15     don't know.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, here we see paragraph 48, where the removal of

17     weapons belonging to Territorial Defence is being discussed.  And you say

18     that in late 1991 and early 1992 the weapons of the TO were removed from

19     Kljuc to the Kula municipality, and the Muslims protested because they

20     believed that those weapons were going to be sent to Kupres to be used in

21     combat there; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber, in early April 1992, what

24     fighting, and against whom, was underway at Kupres?

25        A.   I can't really recall these combat operations in Kupres in the

Page 19719

 1     early days.

 2        Q.   Well, let me try to refresh your memory.  Bosnia-Herzegovina was

 3     still part of Yugoslavia.  The regular Croatian troops went to Kupres,

 4     attacking Serbian villages, and the JNA was defending them; correct?

 5        A.   Well, I can only tell you that I did not follow those events and

 6     I can't recall what transpired, but if you say so.

 7        Q.   Well, why, then, in paragraph 48 do you say that the Muslims

 8     protested against their weapons being taken to Kupres?

 9        A.   Well, this may be an error.  They protested because the infantry

10     weapons were being removed from Kljuc and moved to the Kula warehouse in

11     Mrkonjic Grad.  It was a military depot, the Kula military depot.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So paragraph 48 is not completely accurate; correct?

13        A.   Well, I don't know why Kupres would be mentioned here.  It should

14     read Kula, the warehouse in Kula.  That is a reserve depot, military

15     depot, in Kula, towards Manjaca.

16        Q.   And that was under JNA control; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you remember that in 1990, before the elections in August, the

19     Presidency of the SFRY, the old communist Presidency, ordered that TO

20     weapons should be placed under JNA control and you failed to do that in

21     Kljuc; correct?

22        A.   I don't know anything about such a decision by the Presidency.

23     I heard about it during my last evidence here, but I did hear about Kljuc

24     not complying with that decision.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know anything about the Green Berets and

Page 19720

 1     their existence in some smaller villages in your municipality, like

 2     Velagici and similar?

 3        A.   Would you please tell me what you understand Green Berets to

 4     mean.  Would that mean any Bosniak who was fighting or a soldier who was

 5     armed and equipped and uniformed?  What do you mean by that?

 6        Q.   Well, I'll show you the paragraph in a moment.  But in the

 7     meantime tell us, please, do you know or did you know of the existence of

 8     the Kljuc Sana Brigade?

 9        A.   I didn't know anything about the Kljuc Sana Brigade earlier.

10     I only learned about it in Manjaca or after Manjaca.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, where do you live?  What is the street name

12     where you live now?

13        A.   Well, in Kljuc -- or, rather, last year I moved to Sanica, and

14     the (redacted)

15        Q.   But what was the name of the street where you lived in Kljuc,

16     before you moved?

17        A.   Well, it was called Naselje "Sedamnaeste."

18        Q.   Would you please give us the full name of that street.

19        A.   Naselje of the 17th Mountain Brigade.  "Naselje Sedamnaeste

20     Brdske Brigade."

21        Q.   The glorious brigade; correct?

22        A.   Yes, the glorious brigade.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't think it's necessary that

25     we have the street name on page 105 at lines 9 and 12 and 14.  I'm sorry,

Page 19721

 1     I would ask for that to be redacted.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no objection.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I would like to know, Mr. Dzafic, this:  Was your street, before

 5     you moved from Kljuc, was it called the street of the

 6     17th Chivalrous Brigade, and was that a Muslim brigade during this war?

 7        A.   Well, after Kljuc was liberated, it was normally for the streets

 8     to be renamed.  The street on which I lived before the war was called the

 9     street of M Tito, but after the war it was renamed into Naselje, or

10     neighbourhood, of the 17th Mountain Brigade, the Chivalrous Brigade, from

11     Travnik.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Were you a member of this brigade?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, please take a look at paragraph 50.  You're

15     being asked -- you're asked about the Green Berets in Velagici, so I was

16     not the first to ask you about the Green Berets; correct?

17        A.   Please keep on going.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So not -- irrespective of whether this is -- this

19     information is correct or not, there was information about Green Berets

20     in Velagici and you had knowledge about it?

21        A.   No.  I've already told you I learned about it during my evidence.

22     Now, I did not know about the organisation of the Green Berets.  I'm not

23     trying to say that there were no able bodied Bosniak men who perhaps

24     managed to obtain illegally some weapons.  But that they were organised

25     or that they were Green Berets, I don't have any information to that

Page 19722

 1     effect.

 2        Q.   And now paragraph 51 and the Red Berets -- I apologise.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Mr. Karadzic, for interrupting.

 4             Your Honour, I think it's only necessary to redact the street

 5     name at line 9 on page 105.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So you noticed the arrival of some Red Berets.  And in

 9     paragraph 52 you say that you believe that their intentions may have been

10     good, that they reinstated order, that they prevented the escalation of

11     conflicts in Kljuc.  That was in early May; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.  They were billeted in the secretariat or the staff of

13     Territorial Defence, and a certain number of those Green Berets were

14     placed at the disposal of us in the police.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And, now, did you conclude that that was the JNA's

16     response to the objections of the conduct of the reservists and do you

17     agree that the Red Berets had been sent as the military police to help

18     you deal with the problems?

19        A.   That was true for a while.  They did help us a lot.  Those people

20     were well-trained, they were good policemen, especially when it came to

21     dealing with the reservists who returned from various front lines and

22     disrupted public peace and order.

23        Q.   In paragraph 54 you speak about the Crisis Staff.  And you say

24     that some people were members of the Crisis Staffs ex officio, and you

25     mentioned that that was also the case in the previous system.  As a

Page 19723

 1     person familiar with the Law on All People's Defence, would you agree

 2     that membership in such ad hoc bodies such as Presidencies,

 3     Crisis Staffs, and so on and so forth, that membership in such bodies is

 4     ex officio?

 5        A.   Yes, I would agree that that was true in the previous system.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Up to that moment, those laws were still in effect,

 7     they had not been changed; right?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember, you're right.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And now, you say, in paragraph 58 possibly, that you

10     were informed by a Serb from Sanica that the Serbs had established a

11     Crisis Staff, and he also advised you to advise the Muslims to form their

12     own Crisis Staff.  Is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, it is.  That Muslim staff was never established.  Later on,

14     myself and Nedeljko Grabez, who is mentioned in here as the president of

15     the staff in Sanica, were able to establish that a Crisis Staff never

16     existed in Sanica, a Crisis Staff that would have been organised by the

17     Muslims there.

18        Q.   Thank you.  For the benefit of the other participants who do not

19     hail from our area, let's be precise.  Mr. Grabez was a Serb from Sanica

20     and the president of the Serbian Crisis Staff.  He talked to you and he

21     advised you to form your own Crisis Staff, you Muslims?

22        A.   Well, it was not a piece of advice.  It was our informal

23     conversation, because Grabez and I had spent some time working in

24     education.  We knew each other very well from there.  He just suggested

25     that in passing.  We were standing in the street by the school.

Page 19724

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you then conclude that it was his belief that if

 2     you had a Crisis Staff it would be easier for you to deal with the

 3     problems in Sanica?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know what he may have concluded or not.  I can't

 5     discuss that.  I don't have an answer to that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And now, in paragraph 62, you talk about the

 7     referendum.  Do we agree that that was the referendum that took place in

 8     late February?  Do you agree that the Serbs abstained and that they did

 9     not obstruct you to carry out your referendum?

10        A.   Every referendum, including that one, should have been secured by

11     the police.  As far as I can remember, the implementation of the

12     referendum was not riddled with any incidents.  More or less all the

13     polling places were covered by police patrols.

14        Q.   Well, do you agree that the Serbs had informed you in advance

15     that they would not obstruct the referendum?

16        A.   I don't remember any such thing, I really don't.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 63 you say that Vinko Kondic signed that

18     he would join the security services centre in Banja Luka.  Before then,

19     was the Kljuc Public Security Station tied to the Security Services

20     Centre in Banja Luka?

21        A.   Yes, it was.  When it comes to joining the Banja Luka region,

22     I made my own conclusions on the basis of the fact that he stopped

23     carrying out orders that came from Sarajevo.  He joined the Banja Luka

24     centre, and he carried out their orders and acted on their dispatches.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that on the 13th of February and then on

Page 19725

 1     21st and then the 22nd February, and then finally the 18th of March, we

 2     agreed that the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina would have its own

 3     republic and that the Muslims will have -- would have their own republic

 4     and the Croats would have their own republic, according to the so-called

 5     Lisbon Agreement, did you know that?

 6        A.   It was a long time ago.  I knew some of the details, but not all.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know, and do you agree, that Kljuc as a

 8     whole is very deep in the Serbian territory and that it is surrounded by

 9     villages with -- and towns with predominantly Serb population, for

10     example Drvar with almost 100 per cent Serb population, and so on and so

11     forth?

12        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I would say yes, however Kljuc also borders on

13     Sanski Most and Prijedor.  And look at those places in light of the 1991

14     census.

15        Q.   Do you know that Kljuc in almost all plans, bar for one, where it

16     says that Muslim parts of Sanski Most, Kljuc, and Prijedor would have

17     cantons, in all the other plans and proposals Kljuc was envisaged as a

18     town in the Republika Srpska, the exception is the Dayton -- are the

19     Dayton Accords, which were signed during the time when war developments

20     conditioned that?  Do you remember that?

21        A.   I didn't have that concrete information.  I now hear it from you.

22     I really didn't know that.  Kljuc is where it is.  It cannot be moved.

23     And that's very clear, is it not?

24        Q.   Thank you.  If we have time we are going to show you a series of

25     maps which will demonstrate that Kljuc has always been considered part of

Page 19726

 1     the Republika Srpska by the Muslim leaders and the international

 2     mediators.  The exceptions to that are the first map and the

 3     Owen-Stoltenberg map, which envisaged for Kljuc, Sanski Most, and

 4     Prijedor to have Muslim cantons.  But I don't think we will get there.

 5     We will not have the time to do that.

 6             And now you're talking about the establishment of the manoeuvre

 7     unit, and do you agree with me that that was something that was

 8     customary, that had existed even before, and that my cousin from Jajce

 9     Midhat Karadzic refused to obey and to send his police officers to become

10     members of that unit; right?

11        A.   I wouldn't use the term that you used.  I wouldn't say that he

12     refused.  Whether he refused or just didn't want to obey, in any case the

13     manoeuvre unit from Jajce did not attend the joint training in Manjaca.

14        Q.   Thank you very much.  In paragraph --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, would you have any re-examination?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Very brief, Your Honour.  Hopefully only five

17     minutes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll take a break now for half an hour.  And

19     after which, Mr. Karadzic, you will have ten minutes to conclude your

20     cross-examination.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.01 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm wondering if the Chamber would consider giving

Page 19727

 1     Dr. Karadzic about 45 minutes so that we can finish with this witness and

 2     not have to start another one today, and also because I've noticed that

 3     in the Zupljanin case the cross-examination was four hours.  They don't

 4     have time limits there.  And maybe the cross-examination was as good as

 5     Dr. Karadzic's, maybe it was better, or maybe it was worse, but in any

 6     event those lawyers got to ask all the questions that they felt were

 7     relevant and necessary.  And I think Dr. Karadzic ought to have the same

 8     opportunity, particularly considering that the amalgamated statement is

 9     even broader than the direct examination in Zupljanin.  It doesn't seem

10     fair that he should be restricted to less time than was given in that

11     case.  So I hope you could consider using the balance of the day by

12     having him complete his cross-examination and then the re-direct and we

13     can go home at 4.30.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, the Chamber has been disappointed by

16     the conduct of Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination today, which was not

17     focused on relevant issues.  However, given the peculiar circumstances of

18     today, we will accommodate your request on an exceptional basis.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much on my behalf as

21     well, and thank you for your patience.  I'm an amateur, as you know.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, in paragraph 71 you say that the Serbs were the ones

24     who wanted the patrols to be of a mixed composition, Serb and Muslim.

25     But then you also say that they wanted to see what kind of weapons the

Page 19728

 1     Muslims had been provided with.

 2        A.   What I had in mind were hunting rifles, Mr. Karadzic.

 3        Q.   Very well.

 4        A.   Because those mixed patrols or guards that I knew of had only the

 5     hunting rifles that were in their legal possession.

 6        Q.   My point is different.  In paragraph 71 you say:

 7             [In English] "There were demands by the Serbs that there be

 8     patrols in the mixed Muslim-Serb villages and that these patrols should

 9     be mixed.  The Serbs only did this to see what kind of weapons the

10     Muslims had."

11             [Interpretation] Later on, you say that Muslim delegates in Kljuc

12     municipality were against that because they did not want the Serbs to see

13     what Muslims had; right?

14        A.   No.  On the contrary.  Both sides were in favour of mixed

15     patrols.  However, I received subsequent information, which was then

16     included in the statement, that the mixed patrols were short-lived.  They

17     only lasted for a couple of months.  And, indeed, that they just wanted

18     to know what weapons Muslims had.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And then the Muslim delegates didn't want the Serbs

20     to know that.

21        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know what other people may have been

22     thinking.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Why did Muslims or Muslim delegates speak against

24     mixed patrols?

25        A.   Where do you read that?  I can't find it.

Page 19729

 1        Q.   It is in paragraph 71.

 2             [In English] "The Muslim delegates at the Kljuc assembly meetings

 3     required that the Serb military and the military police do not go into

 4     Muslim areas and that arrests should be only done by the civilian police.

 5     The Serbs did not want --" and so and so on.

 6        A.   This is something completely different, and I adhere by that.

 7        Q.   Let's go on.  In paragraph 73 you say that you were in aware that

 8     in Velagici, Pudin Han, the villages had started organising night guard

 9     duties, and then you say that they felt that they should organise those

10     patrols because there had been shootings, and so on and so forth.  How

11     did you know what they felt?

12        A.   Well, the term "feel" may not be appropriate here.

13             I had information, I was privy to the fact that there were

14     shootings, there were fire -- shots fired in those villages into

15     religious buildings and the homes of the veterans, and then the assembly

16     members wanted to install their own guards and patrols in those non-Serb

17     settlements in order to prevent any such activities.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have a single piece of evidence, a single

19     document, resulting from any investigations about shots being fired into

20     churches and other religious facilities?

21        A.   I believe that shots were fired in Velagici and Sanica, in the

22     mosques there, or, rather, in their spires.  And investigations actually

23     were not carried out, but we had information to that effect.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You say that on the 2nd of April, 1992, there were

25     legal forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you said that when you're talking

Page 19730

 1     about Bosanska Krupa.  What did you have in mind?  What kind of legal

 2     forces did Bosnia-Herzegovina have on the 2nd of April?

 3        A.   I don't have an answer to that, believe me.  I have the

 4     translation here to read it a little bit, to remind myself of what is

 5     there, but right now I really don't have an answer for that.

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  And then in paragraph 75 you say that the

 7     police forces started to be formed on a single-ethnic basis.  Is it true,

 8     Mr. Dzafic, that they were so because you didn't want to work anymore?

 9        A.   Well, there are a number of questions here.  In those

10     circumstances, and the way I explained it, I wasn't able to work any

11     more, and I was removed from my job.  I didn't say that I didn't want to

12     work, and I didn't give a statement to that effect.

13        Q.   And do you recall that in May two young Muslims from Sarajevo

14     were sent in May to Kljuc and they were deployed there as young policemen

15     and then later they were permanently employed?

16        A.   I would like to know their first and last names.

17        Q.   Adnan Temimovic; isn't that right?

18        A.   Adnan Temimovic was a cadet, an active policeman, who worked at

19     the Kljuc Police Station much before the events of the 7th of May, and

20     then he was transferred to the Sanica Police Department and he worked as

21     a policeman there.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at 22074 or -5.  Look at Adamovic.  This

23     is page 123.  Kondic asked you if, in early May --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this is ERN number -- actually

25     English page 126, Serbian 123, and the ERN number is

Page 19731

 1     061-7021 [as interpreted].

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   He asked you whether they, after completing the MUP school, they

 4     came to Kljuc, and he gave them a job, and they got permanent employment;

 5     is that correct?

 6        A.   Well, I don't have the translation of that.

 7        Q.   You have the Serbian version.  You have it there.  You have the

 8     Serbian variant.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The Court Deputy should have the transcript in

10     Adamovic trial.  22075, which we saw earlier.  Does the witness have it

11     in front of him?

12             Mr. Dzafic, do you have it in front of you?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version is good.  And

14     the English version, it should be on page 126.  The ERN number is

15     0671-7021.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   "I'm asking you about the beginning of May 1992," both pages are

18     okay?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a minute.  The witness is not able to follow

20     the e-court.  I'm asking him whether he has it before him.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   All right.  Can you look at it.  It says, Accused Kondic, the

24     fifth line from the top, Kosovic [phoen], Kondic, Dzafic, Kondic.  I'm

25     asking you about the beginning of May.  Is it true that they were

Page 19732

 1     employed in May?  There is a name here, Adnan Temimovic; isn't that

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, he was employed at the time, full time, but he actually was

 4     employed much before that.

 5        Q.   But in this transcript you confirm that this was in early May.

 6        A.   I know that this Mr. Temimovic was part of the manoeuvring

 7     contingent training at Manjaca, and this was much earlier, before May.

 8     He was a staff member.  At the beginning of May he was just transferred

 9     from Kljuc to Sanica, to the same organisational unit.

10        Q.   Let me remind you, Mr. Dzafic, when they finish do they have a

11     certain term of employment and then after that they have to have a period

12     of traineeship and then are permanently employed?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.

14        Q.   And is that why you think he worked for longer, actually?

15        A.   Well, I don't have a specific answer to that, but I know that his

16     employment was for a longer period.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you look at paragraph 80 of your statement now.

18     During those two weeks that you were given to consider, you met

19     Omer Filipovic, you considered what to do, should you sign the oath or

20     not; is that right?

21        A.   On two or three occasions I just happened to get in touch with

22     Mr. Filipovic in order to surmount the newly created situation and to

23     avoid bloodshed, and there was talk even that the loyalty oath should be

24     signed for the Serbian authorities and for us to continue working.

25        Q.   In that paragraph you confirm that you were aware that you knew

Page 19733

 1     that the Serbs and Muslims were negotiating the division of Kljuc into a

 2     Serbian and Muslim territory; is that correct?

 3        A.   No.  I didn't know that.  I didn't know anything about any

 4     division.

 5        Q.   But it states here that you found out later that --

 6        A.   Maybe later I found out.  But at that time I didn't know that.

 7        Q.   And let's look for just a minute to see if it's correct, to see

 8     what was the conclusion regarding the distribution of weapons.  The fact

 9     that you saw these people, did that have anything to do with the

10     preparation of fighting and the distribution of weapons?

11        A.   Well, look, there are a few questions there.  I did say that

12     I saw and spoke with Mr. Filipovic several times only in reference to the

13     signing.  As to the other activities, distribution of weapons, shipments,

14     combat activities, we did not -- actually, nobody talked to me about any

15     of those topics, not even once.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D1352 just for a

17     minute, please.  D1352.  And if we can have page 17, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Did you carry out training of extremists and concealed their

20     actions, actions of policemen who took part in that?

21        A.   No.  Had I done that, Mr. Karadzic, I wouldn't be sitting here

22     today.

23        Q.   Well, can you look at item 7.  In July 1992, before you were

24     released, this is what the Serbs thought, and they received information

25     that this is what you were doing.  Look, operative work established that

Page 19734

 1     a number of the SJB --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 17 can we have in the

 3     English -- [In English] Point 7, point 7.  Next, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And you can see; I don't have to read it out to you.  Can you see

 6     this?

 7        A.   Page 17?

 8        Q.   Paragraph 7, the involvement of police employees in the legal

 9     distribution of weapons and training of extremists.  And it states here

10     that they took part in the capture of seven soldiers from Crljin to

11     Krasulje, and together with Atif Dzafic they all trained extremists and

12     concealed their activities.  There is still operative work underway for

13     certain former SJB employees.  And this was all received from Alija Bilip

14     or Bilic.  He's a retired employee.

15        A.   I state that the activities that are mentioned in this last

16     sentence, that I carried out training of extremists and concealed their

17     actions, that's what it says here.  Anything can be written anywhere.

18     But there is no evidence of me having committed any of these activities.

19     And had I done anything of that, I wouldn't have even reached Manjaca.

20             And, you know, as a person who experienced all the things that

21     I experienced, I do not wish to insult anyone or underestimate anyone.

22     I mean, you insulted me in our previous conversation.  But with dignity,

23     with full responsibility, and in the material sense, I say that what I'm

24     saying is true.  Anything can be written here.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You can be sure that I have no intention of insulting

Page 19735

 1     you.  I'm just trying to establish the truth.  Do you know that seven

 2     soldiers were captured at Crljin?

 3        A.   I found that out later, about how many were captured.  I didn't

 4     take part in that.  And there is no point in you putting questions to me

 5     about that.  I've already said where I was and what I was doing in that

 6     period.  What I know is what I'm telling you, and that is the truth.

 7        Q.   In -- according to what you know, did this Atif Dedic participate

 8     in the capture of those policemen?

 9        A.   Well, Atif Dedic was a policeman.  That's what it says here.  I

10     don't know whether he took part in that or not.  You should ask him that.

11     And the other soldiers who, as far as I know, attacked a Muslim village,

12     of the village of Crljin, this is something that should be looked at from

13     several aspects, and the truth should be established.

14        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I have to ask you, without any intention to insult

15     you, Are you saying that the soldiers attacked the village and were

16     captured or they were captured without any kind of attack having taken

17     place while they were in a column?  Just tell me what you are asserting,

18     and then we'll see later.

19        A.   Well, let's be clear.  I don't know.  Perhaps we're not thinking

20     of the same thing, of the same period, the same date, and so on.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you look at paragraph 90 of your statement, where

22     you say that you heard in Manjaca that Atif Dedic, Muslim policeman, was

23     one of the people who captured seven Serbian soldiers.

24        A.   Yes, I did hear that in Manjaca.  But later you can read what it

25     says in the statement.

Page 19736

 1        Q.   And is it correct that he was dismissed from the police after

 2     that?

 3        A.   Mr. Karadzic, no.  This happened at the time when we were

 4     dismissed from the police.

 5        Q.   And those five soldiers who were killed, the JNA soldiers, of the

 6     JNA that was withdrawing, were not five soldiers killed in the column

 7     that was withdrawing from Knin to Yugoslavia?

 8        A.   Well, this case is just one case that you're asking me about,

 9     regarding Atif Dedic.  And this other thing is another incident.  As far

10     as I know, according to some information, three or five were killed in

11     the column.  That is correct.  And these ones here, five -- or, rather,

12     seven, were captured in the Bosniak settlement of Crljin.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And is it correct that on the 27th of May a

14     synchronised number of attacks were executed against the Serbian soldiers

15     and army in the Kljuc municipality?

16        A.   I have no answer to that question.  I wasn't really informed

17     about it because already on the 21st or the 22nd I was in Sanica, which

18     is my birthplace, and this actually happened on the 27th of May.  And

19     I would like to ask you to actually dwell on this as little as possible,

20     questions like this, where I was not an eyewitness.

21        Q.   Thank you.  But you write about that in your statement.  In 82,

22     you say that you went to Sanica and that you heard that there would be

23     shelling.  Isn't it correct that Sanica was never shelled?

24        A.   Well, the shelling of Sanica was announced.  It was announced.

25        Q.   But it didn't actually happen; right?

Page 19737

 1        A.   No, not in Sanica, no.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And you say that some of us escaped to the forest.

 3     We hid in the forest.  Who hid in the forest?

 4        A.   When the shelling was announced, the shelling of the Sanica area,

 5     all the inhabitants, women, children, of course all the adults, fled to

 6     the nearby woods, and I was also in one of those columns of people.

 7        Q.   When was this exactly?

 8        A.   I don't know exactly, but it was in the period from the 22nd to

 9     the 26th.  Excuse me, I don't know exactly.  It was from the 22nd,

10     thereabouts, up until the 30th of May.  I cannot recall the exact date,

11     but I know that with my family, with my elderly mother, and the others,

12     we escaped.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When you talk about the 1st of June in paragraph 84

14     and you speak about civilians, what are civilians to you, Mr. Dzafic?  Is

15     it that they are wearing civilian clothing?  And is a policeman and a

16     fighter still that when they change into civilian clothing, or do they

17     turn into civilians?

18        A.   Well, it's well known what a civilian is and what a uniformed

19     person is.  A soldier, a policeman, wearing a uniform.  Of course.

20        Q.   And was it a widespread occurrence in Bosnia that people, at

21     least during the first year, actually fought wearing civilian clothing?

22        A.   Well, where I was, after being dismissed from the police, in that

23     period, there was nobody fighting in civilian clothing.  Actually neither

24     in civilian clothing, neither in uniform.  That's where I was.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

Page 19738

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, but I would ask

 2     Mr. Karadzic not to misquote the evidence.  He says, in page 120, line 17

 3     to 19:

 4             "And is it correct that on the 27th of May a synchronised number

 5     of attacks were executed against the Serbian soldiers and army in the

 6     Kljuc municipality?"

 7             And then the witness goes on to say:  "I have no answer to that

 8     question."  I wasn't informed about this, and goes on.

 9             And then Mr. Karadzic says:

10             "But you write about that in your statement," in paragraph 82.

11     And then goes on to say:  "... you say that you went to Sanica and that

12     you heard that there would be shelling.  Isn't it correct ..."

13             And that's not -- none of that is contained in paragraph 82.

14             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in paragraph 82, and I have

16     to read now, there it is, 82:

17             [In English] [As read] "I could hear the sound of gunfire and in

18     and around the village of Pudin Han and Velagici and that what sounded

19     like artillery fire and exploding shells.  Also during that time I saw

20     five or six houses were ..." and so on.

21             [Interpretation] Or perhaps it's 83.  But the witness confirmed

22     it.  I don't have to call up the document if the witness confirms.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let us proceed.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, you mention in paragraph 85 the time when you were

Page 19739

 1     detained in the gym of the school in Sanica.  You say that Milan Tomic

 2     told you that the investigative team was late because the Green Berets

 3     had set an ambush at Biljani, on the road from Kljuc to Sanica which was

 4     blocked.

 5        A.   That's Tomic's evidence.  He told not only me but all of us who

 6     were detained there, who had been illegally, unlawfully, brought to that

 7     gym, but we only laughed at it because we knew that neither was the road

 8     blocked at Biljani, nor were there any Green Berets to set ambushes.

 9     That's what he said, his words.

10        Q.   How could you, sitting in that gym, know that it's not true,

11     while he, with a hand-held radio and contact with the police station,

12     doesn't know?

13        A.   We knew it wasn't true because it was not in the Bosniaks'

14     interest to do anything like that.  They wouldn't care to do something

15     like that.

16        Q.   So you reckoned they wouldn't do something like that and on that

17     basis you say there was no roadblock and no ambush by the Green Berets.

18     Do you have any stronger argument to support what you're saying?

19        A.   At that time, I had some information, and that's why we laughed

20     when he said that.  If there had been any Green Berets in the area of

21     Biljani, we would have known about it, certainly.

22        Q.   In your evidence in the Adamovic case, 22075, page 10, you say

23     that the head of department, Milan Tomic, said we should be patient.

24     Wait for a while.  A team of investigators from Kljuc would come,

25     question us, and of course, those who are found to be innocent will be

Page 19740

 1     released to go home, and those who are found to be responsible would be

 2     held accountable.

 3             Is that what he said?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   And when the investigators were running late, he explained that

 6     it was because of an ambush in Biljani.

 7        A.   Yes, those were his words.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that some people were killed at

 9     Biljani.  Did you see that?

10        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I did not see that, nor was I able to see that.  On

11     10 July, when that happened in Biljani, I was at Manjaca, and I didn't

12     even mention it anywhere.  I just learned in 1996, during the exhumation

13     of mass graves, that all the people from the Biljani area were exhumed

14     from Laniste 1 site, 189 persons.  I attended the exhumation.

15        Q.   And do you know how they died?

16        A.   How they met their death?  I learned later that they had been

17     brought in, put on two buses to go to Manjaca, but they never arrived at

18     Manjaca.  They ended up at Laniste where they were killed.

19        Q.   That's what you heard from someone and you have no other

20     knowledge about it?

21        A.   No.  No.  After the war I was appointed chief of the police

22     administration in Kljuc, and as chief of that administration it was my

23     duty to attend the exhumations.  I had opportunity to see all sorts of

24     documents and statements.  I was not an eyewitness in that case except

25     attending the exhumation of mass graves, and I believe there are

Page 19741

 1     witnesses who were eye witnesses and who can confirm this better than I

 2     can.  But I do know that whole bodies were recovered from that grave,

 3     bodies that were not damaged, and they -- it was clear that they had been

 4     shot with a bullet to the head.

 5        Q.   But you do say that only a survivor could really confirm what

 6     happened.

 7        A.   Yes.  A survivor could testify.

 8        Q.   And then a survivor is suddenly found and comes here to testify.

 9        A.   I don't know about that.  It's not my decision, Mr. Karadzic.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I have misled the parties.  It's in paragraph 88, in

11     fact, you told the investigator, Vasic, that Sanica would be shelled, as

12     you had heard, and you would go to hide in the woods.  Vasic, in fact,

13     asked you why you were going to hide in the woods and you answered that

14     you had heard Sanica would be shelled.  Is that right?

15        A.   When I was being brought to the gym in that school, of course

16     I was questioned, among others by Vasic, and he made some sort of

17     official note, and I told him all I knew.  Nothing else.  And among other

18     things I told him that when I heard about the shelling I went with my

19     entire family and some other neighbours to the woods.  We didn't stay

20     there for a long time, for an hour or two at most, and as soon as it got

21     dark, we went home.

22        Q.   In paragraph 91 you say you were questioned as to why you had

23     killed your assistant Dusan Stojakovic.

24        A.   You are insulting me.  Nobody asked me why I had killed him.

25     They questioned me as to what I knew about who might have killed him.

Page 19742

 1     Stojakovic had been my colleague for years.  I was not there when he was

 2     killed and I told you many times I wasn't there.  And I don't know under

 3     what circumstances he was killed.

 4        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I am not accusing you of anything.  But you say in

 5     paragraph 91 that you were questioned about that, about his death.

 6             [In English] "He asked me why I killed Stojakovic and why I did

 7     not come to his funeral."

 8             [Interpretation] That's written in paragraph 91 of your

 9     statement, and I'm not --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you read the next sentence as well.

11             MR. KARADZIC:

12        Q.   "I told him that I did not kill him and that I was in Sanica and

13     that I could not come to the funeral because it was in Ribnik, 25

14     kilometres," and so on.

15             I'm not asking you here whether you killed him.  I'm asking you

16     whether they asked you that, whether you were a suspect.  I'm interested

17     in the grounds for your arrest, and that you hid in the forest, that you

18     trained terrorists, that you covered up illegal activities of the

19     policemen involving weapons.  All these are circumstances I want to shed

20     light on.

21        A.   That's what you're saying, Mr. Karadzic.  But I can answer each

22     of these questions, and I have answered them already.  I told you nicely

23     where I actually was.  And I'm warning you, and I'm telling the

24     Trial Chamber as well, that if it had been noted -- if I had been seen

25     hiding in those woods, and if I had been caught training anyone, let

Page 19743

 1     alone terrorists, I would not be sitting here today.

 2        Q.   I'm not interested in that.  I'm interested in why you were

 3     treated as a suspect.  What was the reason for your arrest?  And did they

 4     really ask you why you had killed Stojakovic, as written in paragraph 91?

 5        A.   Mr. Karadzic, they had to ask me as well as all the others.

 6     There was no reason to arrest me.  There was no reason for all the

 7     beatings and the abuse and all that was done to me.  If there had been

 8     any real evidence of anything, they wouldn't talk to me at all.  They

 9     just thought that I, as police commander, perhaps had more information

10     than others.  And that's why they put those questions.

11        Q.   Are you saying that material evidence had some importance for the

12     Serbs?  Isn't that what you said a moment ago?

13        A.   Of course.  Everyone is looking for proof.

14        Q.   At Manjaca, you were --

15        A.   I was on duty at the barn.

16        Q.   And in paragraph 105 you say every morning you toured the place,

17     asking if anybody needed a physician.

18        A.   In that barn, where after the first 10 days I was named commander

19     of barn number 2, which held on average 600 to 800 prisoners, my job was

20     to check every morning if any of the prisoners needed to have their

21     wounds bandaged, needed medicine or anything.  Such prisoners would be

22     taken to the adjacent building to be examined.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In every barn, were the monitors on duty the most

24     prominent people among the prisoners?  Omer was on duty in another barn.

25        A.   Omer was not a monitor of any kind.  He was in the third barn.

Page 19744

 1     Whether they were really the most prominent or well-respected people, I

 2     don't know.  For instance, one man I know, who was initially appointed

 3     monitor, was unable to do that job so he was replaced.

 4        Q.   Tell me, did those people, who wanted to volunteer to go out to

 5     work, report to you or someone else?

 6        A.   Well, there were several problems with that.  One of them was

 7     that every morning a certain number of prisoners had to be sent out to

 8     work.  Sometimes it was necessary to choose a hundred or even more

 9     prisoners very quickly, and there were not enough volunteers.  And

10     towards the end there were no volunteers at all.

11        Q.   How many Muslims lived in the whole of Kljuc municipality?

12        A.   You mean before the war?

13        Q.   Around 17.000; is that right?

14        A.   17.000; right.  47.something Serbs and 49.something Muslims.

15        Q.   In paragraph 111, you say that there were 60 to 70 in every hall.

16     How many halls existed there at all?

17        A.   That's a mistake.  From the area of Kljuc, on the original list,

18     Mr. Karadzic, only from the area of Kljuc, 1.163 prisoners from Kljuc

19     turned over, and that's not even counting the minors and the elderly.

20        Q.   From the area of Kljuc, with a population of 17.000?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, tell me, you have confirmed that in 1995, when

23     you arrived, Serbs had fled Kljuc.

24        A.   Right.

25        Q.   Is Kljuc municipality now divided between Serbs and Muslims; so

Page 19745

 1     Serbs have the area facing Ribnik and the Muslims have the area facing

 2     Sanski Most?

 3        A.   Well the Dayton Accords divided Kljuc municipality into two

 4     parts.  Exactly as you described.  The area with the majority Serb

 5     population went to the Republika Srpska, and the remaining part to the

 6     federation.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, wouldn't it have been better if that had been

 8     accomplished by the Lisbon agreement without war, than the Dayton Accords

 9     after the war?

10        A.   Mr. Karadzic, it was not my decision.

11        Q.   You mentioned the incident in Velagici.  Do you know that that

12     incident has been investigated and that people were tried?

13        A.   I don't know that.  But concerning the incident in Velagici, I

14     can repeat the following:  While I was in Manjaca, a while into my

15     detention, one night two or three prisoners came to my barn and one of

16     them was from Velagici, Kljuc municipality.  His name was

17     Suad Draganovic.  He was trembling with fear, beaten up, black and blue,

18     and he told me the story of what happened at Velagici.  Now, whether

19     anyone was held responsible, whether anyone was tried or convicted, I

20     don't know.  But the bodies of those people from Velagici were found

21     eventually in the mass grave of Laniste 2, 79 of them, whole bodies.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's almost time to conclude.

23             THE ACCUSED:  Just two questions, to finish this one and another.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you know that the Serbian authorities, or, rather,

Page 19746

 1     Republika Srpska, treated that as a crime, and judgements were made in

 2     that case?

 3        A.   I don't know anything about it.  In fact, I don't know any

 4     details.  I wouldn't go into that discussion.  But it's only natural,

 5     it's only to be expected, that the perpetrators should be tried and

 6     punished.

 7        Q.   And you also mentioned the incident in Biljani on 10th of July,

 8     and you say in paragraph 140 that some tried to escape, around 20 were

 9     killed.  And then you say around 270 people, or, rather, men, women, and

10     children, who had been in that collective centre were killed.  Do you

11     know that for a fact, how those people were killed?  I mean, apart from

12     those who had tried to escape?

13        A.   I don't know the details.  I wasn't there.  Let's get that clear.

14     From what I know and from what I saw in the mass grave of Laniste 1,

15     bodies were buried in two layers, and those were residents of Biljani.

16     And among them was a three-month-old baby girl.  I was there during that

17     exhumation.  And of course there were corpses of women and elderly men.

18     And the logical inference from that number of victims is that's how they

19     died.  But I didn't investigate it myself.

20        Q.   You say that only men were incarcerated in Sanica.  You say that

21     in your paragraph 147; right?

22        A.   In the sports hall in Sanica.  Only men were incarcerated.  And

23     among them there were also minors.  And there were also people who were

24     over 65 years of age at the time.

25        Q.   And you say in your paragraph 150 that in those prisons, you

Page 19747

 1     believe that nobody was killed there.

 2        A.   No.  Nobody was killed in Sanica while I was there.  In Kljuc,

 3     where I was also incarcerated in a sports hall, while I was there for

 4     that one day and the night, or perhaps even longer, nobody was killed

 5     while I was there.  In Sitnica, where I spent about seven days in a

 6     sports hall, I'm not aware of anybody having been killed there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And just one more question.

 8             You say that there was no health care in those detention centres.

 9     However, in your last paragraph you say that you were kept for 24 hours

10     in Sanica and some other places for one or two days; right?

11        A.   Yes.  I spent about 24 hours in Sanica.  There was no food, there

12     was no medical attention.  People were asked for drugs or help but

13     nothing was forthcoming.

14        Q.   And you're talking about the 24 hours that you were there?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.  Please do not think that I tried to

17     attack you in any way.  I just wanted to find out how come that 1700 out

18     of 17.000 Muslims in Kljuc were interrogated and incarcerated.

19        A.   I apologise.  1.630 were in Manjaca alone.  And there were other

20     camps and other prisons.

21        Q.   What happened to those who were incarcerated elsewhere, in the

22     sports halls and elsewhere?  Did they end up in Manjaca or were they

23     released?

24        A.   Either Manjaca or they were released, yes, you're right.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

Page 19748

 1     I apologise.  Please do not feel insulted by anything that I asked you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, thank you very

 3     much.  There are a lot of documents that remain, but I can use them with

 4     some other witnesses.  For me the most important things are the

 5     statements of these people, who are tendered into evidence and admitted

 6     into evidence in this case, thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

10        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, I have a couple of questions for you.  Very, very

11     briefly, earlier this afternoon at page 106 of the transcript

12     Mr. Karadzic put a question to you in relation to the Red Berets, which

13     is mentioned in paragraph 51 of your statement, and he said you noticed

14     the arrival of some Red Berets, and in paragraph 52 you say that you

15     believe their intentions may have been good, and went further.

16             You answered.  You said:

17             "Yes.  They were billeted in the secretariat or the staff of

18     Territorial Defence, and a certain number of those Green Berets were

19     placed at the disposal of us in the police."

20             Were you referring to Red Berets or Green Berets in your answer?

21     Because "Green Berets" appears in the transcript.

22        A.   I apologise.  I misspoke.  The word "green" should be replaced by

23     the word "red."  And I believe that it is obvious from the overall

24     context of my responses.

25        Q.   Yes, Mr. Dzafic, thank you.  I want to now -- I want you to look

Page 19749

 1     at two documents.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could call up 65 ter number 00849A.  And

 3     these two documents that I wish to show Mr. Dzafic have been faxed or

 4     e-mailed down to the Registrar in the Sarajevo field office.

 5        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, this is a copy of a document, of 65 ter number 00849,

 6     that you saw this morning, which is behind tab number 13, which is now

 7     MFI P03490.  We can see there that it has a Broj number, 05.01-118/1992.

 8             I would now like you to look at another --

 9        A.   118?

10        Q.   118/1992.  I would now like you to look at another document, and

11     this is 65 ter number 00848.  And that is a document dated the same date,

12     the 21st of July, 1992, with a Broj number, 05-01-117/1992.  And it's

13     dealing with the decision on the termination of employment of all

14     employees who have filed respond to the general mobilisation.

15             Is this consistent with your knowledge of what was going on in

16     the Kljuc municipality in respect of mobilisation?

17        A.   The document under 117, and the last two numbers are /1992, is

18     something I've never seen before, and this refers to the general

19     mobilisation.  As far as I can remember, I've not seen it before.  In

20     practice, the mobilisation was implemented in this exact way.

21        Q.   To your knowledge, were people's employment terminated who failed

22     to respond to the mobilisation?

23        A.   I don't have any specific information about anybody.  I only

24     know, and I have already stated that, that the leading people in state,

25     public, and other institutions who were not Serbs lost their jobs.

Page 19750

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender these two

 3     documents.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The same objection.  The same

 6     objection.  There is a bucket missing here, there is water missing there,

 7     there is a signature missing here, there is a stamp missing there.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it goes to the weight.  The witness

 9     has already spoken about the document 00849A.  We can also see on the

10     document that preceded the first document, which has the Broj number 117,

11     it does have a stamp, it does -- it appears to have a signature on the

12     document, and I would -- I'm sorry, Mr. Tieger wants to add something.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I would just add, Mr. President, that this -- these

15     documents have indeed been authenticated.  Now we've gone a step farther

16     to show that they're --

17             JUDGE KWON:  You said it has been authenticated.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I mean, I understand that the ultimate

19     determination of that is in the Court's hands.  But I'm saying that the

20     earmarks and indicia of authenticity have been provided with regard to

21     stamps, with regard to sequence, and the order, and so on.

22             Now the accused raises some speculation about what might have

23     happened with these documents, which is entirely baseless and of the type

24     that could be advanced on an imaginative basis for virtually every

25     document that's been tendered by the Defence in this case.  There's no

Page 19751

 1     basis for ignoring the classic earmarks of authenticity that exist with

 2     respect to these documents and that have been amplified by the additional

 3     document that has been proffered, and, as Ms. Sutherland has noted, to

 4     the extent that the speculation of the accused is ultimately given any

 5     weight by the Court, that goes to the weight of the document.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But it's true that in dealing with scope of such --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I'm addressing the parties.  I'll be

 9     very brief.  But in conducting a trial of this size, it's true -- and

10     also it has been our practice not to challenge the authenticity with such

11     a seriousness.  But there is a specific challenge from a party, the thing

12     may be different.  We'll mark these two documents for identification and

13     come back to this issue very soon in due course after the deliberation on

14     the part of the Chamber.

15             Is there anything further to be raised?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated].

17             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, please.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  I have no further questions

19     for the witness.  And I would just let Your Honours know that

20     65 ter number 00920 and 16080, the English translations have now been

21     uploaded.  And also the last document, 65 ter number 00874, which was the

22     document that wasn't in full, has now been uploaded into e-court and that

23     has the names of 1,163 people.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

Page 19752

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We've passed the time, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Briefly, please.  We would not

 3     challenge the authenticity.  However, it is obvious that there is a

 4     stamp, but I can't see Jovo Banjac, but this was sent to all the

 5     companies.  How come that the complete document was not found in any of

 6     the companies?  I believe that this was falsified after the Bosnian army

 7     entered Kljuc.  If this was sent to all the companies together with a

 8     signature and the stamp, I'm sure that it should have been found in its

 9     complete form somewhere, in some of those companies.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You need expert advice from Mr. Robinson.  I don't

11     follow Mr. Karadzic when he said he does not challenge the authenticity,

12     while he's saying, raising the possibility of falsification.  We will

13     come to this issue later on.

14             We will give the number for these two documents.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 849A shall be assigned

16     Exhibit P3516, and 65 ter document 848 shall be assigned Exhibit P3517,

17     both marked for identification.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Dzafic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

20     Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for giving it.  Now

21     you are free to go.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [In English] Excellencies, I said we would not.  We

24     would not.  This is matter of translation.  We would not contest.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We will come back to this.

Page 19753

 1                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We will resume on Monday at 9.00.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.35 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of

 5                           October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.