Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19793

 1                           Tuesday, 4 October 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             As we enter the courtroom, we were told by the Registrar that

 8     today is the 200th trial date.

 9             Yes, if the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  KERIM MESANOVIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mesanovic.  If you could be seated

15     and make yourself comfortable.

16             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good morning, Your Honours.

18             Good morning.

19                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

20        Q.   Sir, can you please state your full name.

21        A.   My name is Kerim Mesanovic.

22        Q.   As we discussed, part of your evidence in this case will be

23     submitted in writing and we first need to deal with the formalities

24     associated with that submission.  You provided statements and information

25     to representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor and you've testified

Page 19794

 1     before the ICTY in three trials, the Slobodan Milosevic case, the

 2     Kvocka et al. trial, and the Brdjanin trial.  You have recently had an

 3     opportunity to review an amalgamated statement which contained portions

 4     of your testimony which you gave in the Kvocka case in 2000 and the

 5     Brdjanin case in 2002; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Registrar, could I have 65 ter 90285 on the

 8     screen, please.  And if we could go to the next -- page 2, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, is this the document which you reviewed the other

10     day?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   Can you confirm that the testimony provided by you which is

13     contained in the amalgamated statement is accurate?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   If you were asked today about the same matters contained in the

16     amalgamated statement, would you provide the same information to the

17     Trial Chamber, and that is, even if you couldn't formulate everything in

18     the same words, the essence would be the same?

19        A.   That's correct.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender the 65 ter number

21     90285, which is the amalgamated statement of the witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P3528, Your Honours.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   And with Your Honours leave, I'll now read a short summary of the

Page 19795

 1     witness's evidence.

 2             The witness, Kerim Mesanovic, grew up in the town of Prijedor in

 3     the municipality of Prijedor.  Prior to the conflict, he worked in the

 4     mobilisation department of the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence

 5     for over 10 years.  He was dismissed from his employment on the

 6     22nd of May, 1992.  He was brought back to his job for a short time and

 7     given a freedom of movement pass.  On the 24th of June, 1992, the witness

 8     was arrested and placed in a cell at the Prijedor SUP, or the public

 9     security station, which is Schedule C, 20.1.  He was placed in the cell

10     with a number of other men.  These men, including the witness, were

11     beaten at the Prijedor SJB, before being transferred to the Omarska camp,

12     which is Schedule 20.-- Schedule C, 20.2.  The witness had four teeth

13     knocked out.

14             The witness was detained in the Omarska camp until early

15     August 1992.  He was first placed in the "White House" for the -- for

16     three days of his detention.  Zeljko Mejakic then ordered him to be taken

17     to the "glass house" in the administration building.  The witness

18     described the condition at the Omarska camp, other beatings and killings,

19     and this is Schedule B, Incident 15.2.  He also gave evidence about the

20     killing of a number of men and women that were taken from the Omarska

21     camp, and this is Schedule B, 15.3.  The witness also testified about the

22     killing of a large number of men from the Brdo area at the Omarska camp,

23     and this is Schedule B, Incident 15.4.

24             Mr. Mesanovic was transferred to Trnopolje camp on the

25     6th of August, 1992.  The following day, he returned to his home.  He

Page 19796

 1     then went to the village of Petrov Gaj in the Prijedor municipality where

 2     he stayed until the second half of September.  He obtained fake

 3     identification which enabled him to travel to Novi Sad.  And he went

 4     there -- from there to a third country.

 5             The witness describes the destruction of religious sites in

 6     Prijedor municipality, which is Schedule D, Incident 17, and the

 7     destruction of non-Serb property.

 8             That completes the summary of the witness's written evidence.

 9        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, I have a few questions for you.  You testified

10     that you were initially dismissed from your job in the mobilisation

11     department on the 22nd of May, 1992, and you testified about a number

12     of -- the numbers for the military units, and this is at paragraph 9 on

13     pages 11 and 12 of the amalgamated statement.  I'd now like you to look

14     at a document.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could have 65 ter number 05745 on the

16     screen, please.  If we could go to page 2 in the English and also page 2

17     in the B/C/S.

18        Q.   Sir, you see there that these are minutes of the fourth meeting

19     of the Council for National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly

20     held on the 15th of May, 1992.  And at paragraph 4 on page 2, it says,

21     "In the assignment" -- this is talking about mobilisation:  "In the

22     assignment of the remaining conscripts to units, priority is to be given

23     to the reinforcement of War Units 4777 and 8316."

24             At the date of this meeting, you were still employed in the

25     mobilisation department.  What do you recall in relation to mobilisation

Page 19797

 1     and in particular in relation to these two war units?

 2        A.   Both these units were typically local units of Prijedor.  The

 3     4777 is a motorized brigade, manned 100 per cent from the Prijedor area.

 4     The territorial brigade was also manned 100 per cent by Prijedor

 5     conscript as the previous one.  Given that the approximate proportion of

 6     ethnicity corresponded to the composition of the units, the units were in

 7     fact halved due to the absence of Serbs.  And there were also some Serbs

 8     on the records who did not get any assignments.

 9             My former colleague Cedo Sipovac then came along who, in the

10     pre-war period, became commander of a TO organ, which was a kind of

11     counterpart for the Secretariat for National Defence.  He came and asked

12     for a list of Serb conscripts to be made in order for them to do

13     something about it, and he also asked me to draw up call-out papers

14     regardless of the residence addresses.  We just needed to put inside the

15     names, the address, the date of birth, and then he would serve those

16     papers to those people who had not been conscripted yet, and I'm talking

17     exclusively about Serbs.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

19     slow down.  Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:

21        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, did you hear the interpreters asking that you

22     please slow down in your speech?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Okay.  They've requested that you do that.

25        A.   I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  I'll do that.

Page 19798

 1        Q.   In relation to War Unit 4777, you said that that was the

 2     motorized brigade.  Is that more commonly known as the

 3     43rd Motorized Brigade?

 4        A.   Yes, that was the 43rd Motorized Brigade.  In fact, before the

 5     war it was the 43rd Brigade, and later on the word "motorized" was added.

 6     That happened when the war broke out because some units were added to it

 7     in order to make it a motorized brigade.

 8        Q.   And in relation to the unit 8316, you said it was the

 9     Territorial Defence.  Is that also known as the 5th Kozara Brigade?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And in the week prior to you being dismissed from your

12     employment, did you assign the conscripts to these units?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to page 1, please, in the B/C/S

15     and the English.

16        Q.   Under the words "ad 1" and at paragraph 1 there, we can see:

17             "The draft of the decision on the organization and functioning of

18     the Crisis Staff is approved, under the proviso that a representative of

19     the garrison in Prijedor be added to the proposed list of the members of

20     the Crisis Staff."

21             Were you aware of whether a member, a representative of the

22     Prijedor garrison was on the Crisis Staff?

23        A.   I think that we are talking here about Radmilo Zeljaja who was

24     assigned to the Crisis Staff before the war.  He was a

25     Captain First Class.  And after the take-over of power, he became a

Page 19799

 1     major.  And I think that he became also member of the Crisis Staff, as

 2     you've said.  There was also possibly the man called Vladimir Arsic as

 3     well.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3529, Your Honours.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, I wish to show you another document.  This was

 9     shown to you in your previous testimony, and this is at footnote 38 to

10     paragraph 16 on page 21 of the amalgamated statement.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 01046 on the

12     screen, please.

13        Q.   Sir, this is a précis of minutes of the SDS Municipal Board

14     meeting held on the 9th of May, 1992, and if I can draw your attention to

15     the text under "Milan Kovacevic, president of the Municipal Assembly

16     Executive Committee," where it says:

17             "The cabinet meets daily and has adopted at least 50 decisions,

18     the most important of which include:  Replacement of staff has been

19     carried out, with all SDA leaders removed from the functions in the

20     Municipal Assembly; the functioning of government at the level of Krajina

21     can now be felt; and instructions and decisions are being forwarded from

22     the top."

23             Is this consistent with your knowledge of events in -- at this

24     time in early May 1992?

25        A.   Yes, particularly item number 1, the removal of all SDA officials

Page 19800

 1     from all offices.

 2        Q.   And with respect to the replacement of staff being carried out,

 3     you were taken to a number of decisions in the Brdjanin case, and they

 4     are at paragraph 65 of your amalgamated witness statement.

 5             Do you recall that?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I -- this was listed as an

 8     associated exhibit.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3530, Your Honours.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13        Q.   And, Mr. Mesanovic, the final document I wish to show you is

14     another document that was shown to you in your previous testimony in the

15     Brdjanin case, and this is at footnote 128 at paragraph 65 on page 76 of

16     the amalgamated statement.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Mr. Registrar, if I could have

18     65 ter number 14808.

19        Q.   Sir, this is an order from the president of the

20     Prijedor Crisis Staff.  If I could draw your -- sorry, dated

21     2nd of July, 1992.  And if I can draw your attention to paragraph 1 of

22     the order:

23             "All organs, enterprises, and communities are ordered to

24     terminate the employment of workers who have participated in the armed

25     rebellion and who are currently in Omarska and Keraterm."

Page 19801

 1             What happened in respect of your own employment?  Were you

 2     provided with any information as to why you were being terminated?

 3        A.   My employment was terminated on 22nd of May, 1992.  I received a

 4     decision in which it reads that I was dismissed from my job due to acts

 5     committed against the state and the people.  However, I was reinstated in

 6     June and I remained there until the 24th of June, when I was arrested.

 7     This decision dates from July, probably with the aim of confirming of

 8     what had already been done in May for the majority of people.  I don't

 9     know about the rest of them, because by that time I was already in

10     Omarska.  So this decision covers the acts they made and issued in

11     May and June.

12        Q.   And there you're referring to terminating the employment of

13     workers?

14        A.   Those were exclusively non-Serbs.  There was seven Muslims and a

15     female colleague who was married to a Muslim, so eight people were laid

16     off.  On the 22nd of May, it was explained to us that that was done due

17     to the state of war, that nobody was going to be -- that we will have to

18     stand by because they didn't have any instructions from the JNA.  We were

19     dismissed, whereas two people who had been in retirement were called to

20     come back to work, two Serbs.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's an associated exhibit, and I

23     seek to tender that document.

24             JUDGE KWON:  That's admitted.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3531.

Page 19802

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Mesanovic, they are all the questions I have

 2     for you.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If you are minded to tender all the associated

 4     exhibits listed in the list, I would like you to deal with two more

 5     documents on the same vein, which are 65 ter number 5764 and 21203.  The

 6     witness just confirmed what is written, but wasn't asked any question

 7     about those two documents.

 8             Otherwise, are there any objections, Mr. Robinson?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I won't seek to use time taking the

12     witness to 05764.  And the same for 21203, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Mesanovic, your evidence in the previous trial was admitted

15     in its entirety in this case and you will be further asked by

16     Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  Good

19     morning, Excellency.  Good morning to everyone.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning Mr. Mesanovic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Tell me, please, is it true that you have finished the school for

24     reserve officers in Tuzla?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19803

 1        Q.   And thereafter you were transferred to the reserve force of the

 2     JNA; is that correct?

 3        A.   No.  At that time we had two infantry reserve schools.  That was

 4     in Bileca at the federal level and -- and Tuzla at the republican level.

 5     So we took care to assign TO officers to TO units.  As you know, the TO

 6     and the JNA constituted the armed forces as a whole because they were all

 7     part of that.

 8        Q.   So you were within this Territorial Defence component of the

 9     joint armed forces?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   I have to remind both you and myself to make a pause between

12     questions and answers in order to avoid causing problems for the

13     interpreters, but also for the Prosecution and the Chamber.

14             So were you then transferred to the reserve force or, given the

15     nature of your job, were you in a position of an active-duty officer in

16     the Territorial Defence?

17        A.   No, I was employed with the Secretariat for National Defence

18     where I received my war time assignment which was actually a work

19     obligation, which means that during the war I continued doing my previous

20     job and work.

21        Q.   I think that you mentioned somewhere that you had been stationed

22     at an airport.  Did I understand that correctly?  Is that right?

23        A.   No.  The Prijedor detachment of this 8924 unit, but just don't

24     hold me to it - it was called a detachment anyway - was stationed at the

25     airport.  The main task is for this detachment to defend Prijedor in case

Page 19804

 1     of an attack on the town.  Since the war, turmoil was spreading all

 2     around us.  I thought that if we are to defend the town of Prijedor, I --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

 4     of his sentence.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mesanovic, the interpreters couldn't catch your

 6     last part of your answer.  Could you repeat it, after you said, "I

 7     thought that if we are to defend the town of Prijedor ..." and then what

 8     did you say?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that if we were to defend

10     Prijedor, I simply had to be assigned to this TO detachment, defending

11     Prijedor from everyone, not anyone in particular.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could you bear in mind kindly that since your words

13     have to be translated, please put a pause after you heard the question

14     put by Mr. Karadzic.  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Were you given a rank upon completion of the reserve officers

19     school?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Which one?

22        A.   Upon successful completion of the school for reserve officers,

23     the rank of reserve second lieutenant is conferred.

24        Q.   And it's a rank of a commissioned officer, not of a

25     non-commissioned officer; right?

Page 19805

 1        A.   Yes, of a commissioned officer.  And I became reserve captain

 2     right before the war.

 3        Q.   Does that mean that between the period when you served your

 4     military service and did the reserve officers school you were called to

 5     attend various exercises and drills and in the process were given the

 6     rank of a captain?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Did you take an oath as a soldier?

 9        A.   I did.

10        Q.   Did you also take an oath when you were given your first rank?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   So it was the initial oath that was still valid?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Who did you pledge your allegiance to?

15        A.   Well, the then-federal -- Socialist Federal Republic of

16     Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You were aware of the fact that the SFRY Presidency

18     just before the multi-party elections issued a decision to withdraw the

19     weapons of the TO and their storage into JNA warehouses; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was this in fact done in Prijedor?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Why was it then that in February of 1991 at a meeting of the

24     Assembly one of the items on the agenda was a discussion as to why the

25     SFRY Presidency order to hand over the weaponry to the

Page 19806

 1     Zarko Zgonjanin barracks had not been honoured?

 2        A.   I don't know about that.  What I do know is that the TO staff

 3     depot was already housed in the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks.  I don't know

 4     why that part of the order was not complied with.

 5        Q.   Do you recall that as part of these discussions -- did you attend

 6     this meeting at all?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Was it not an item of the agenda that required your presence

 9     there?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You say that the orders came from the federal

12     Secretariat for National Defence, and then through the secretariat in

13     Sarajevo for the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then from there on

14     to Banja Luka, and from Banja Luka to Prijedor; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it true that before the elections there had been no

17     Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   No.  There was no ministry, but it was called the

19     Republican Secretariat for the National Defence.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You also say in your 2000 statement, which does not

21     bear your signature, that the municipality could not modify orders coming

22     from the republican secretariat in a state of war and that the

23     municipality enjoyed such a degree of autonomy that it was able to issue

24     a definitive decision calling for mobilisation; is that right?

25        A.   Well, I can't give you a yes or no answer.  I need to give you an

Page 19807

 1     explanation, with your leave, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mesanovic, could you explain to me why you can't

 3     give an answer?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The municipality could defer the

 5     call-up for mobilisation only where the economy of that municipality

 6     would be threatened because such a large number of people would be called

 7     to attend.  Other than that, the municipality did not enjoy any sort of

 8     autonomy.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   But in your statement you say that the municipality could refuse

14     to comply with or it could modify a mobilisation order save in a time of

15     war; is that right?

16        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

17        Q.   You confirmed in the case against Milosevic - let me say

18     President Milosevic because there was a General Milosevic as well, to

19     avoid any confusion - that you were aware of the fact that the SDA and

20     Izetbegovic issued an order to the Muslims reservists that they should

21     not respond to call-ups; is that right?

22        A.   I heard it on the radio and television.  And as for my being

23     aware of it otherwise, well, no.

24        Q.   You are familiar with our laws, Law on the Army, on the Defence,

25     and the All People's Defence?

Page 19808

 1        A.   Well, I am, yes, to a certain degree.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  An order not to respond to a call-up from the army,

 3     does that not constitute a crime?

 4        A.   Yes, it does.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You say that Stjepan Maric, a Croat and an associate

 6     of yours, was sent to Manjaca because he refused to have failed to act

 7     upon mobilisation call-ups; is that right?

 8        A.   No.  And I'm sorry, Your Honours, I can't stop at that.  I have

 9     to give you an explanation as well.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stjepan Maric was not sent to

12     Manjaca because he failed to perform his duties.  He was accused as a

13     chief of communications centre of having conveyed information to the

14     Croats of where the JNA positions were.  That was why he was sent to

15     Manjaca.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   But in your statement, in your amalgamated statement at

18     page 31131, in answer to the question of whether he had been sent to

19     Manjaca because he failed to execute these mobilisation orders, you say

20     that he worked in the Ministry of Defence or the defence department as a

21     computer expert and that he was sent to Manjaca as a regiment commander;

22     is that right?

23        A.   No, no.  It must have been a mistake in interpretation or

24     something like that, because I never said that.  He was never a regiment

25     commander.

Page 19809

 1        Q.   Very well.  We will not be calling it up if you think it was

 2     misinterpretation.  But is it true that you said in the case against

 3     President Milosevic that he had been accused of having misappropriated

 4     100.000 German marks from the Croats and that that was the reason why he

 5     was sent to Omarska, and not because he was a Croat?

 6        A.   That was the charge, that he, together with me, had taken

 7     100.000 German marks and that we had taken a CD to Zagreb to -- we had

 8     taken a CD containing information to Zagreb and that was published in

 9     newspapers, that we had been given this money from Tudjman in exchange

10     for information.

11        Q.   And then you say that there were no more orders arriving from

12     Sarajevo, instead they started arriving from Knin; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Am I right in saying that there was a change in the military's

15     territorial structure and that the 2nd Military District was given a

16     different area of responsibility and that the Banja Luka area came under

17     the Knin Corps?

18        A.   Well, I don't know.  That's part of your position and ideology.

19     Officially there was the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there was the

20     republican secretariat, which should have been under the Banja Luka

21     military district as the ultimate authority and decision-making structure

22     for the republic.

23        Q.   You say this was part of my -- this is part of my position or

24     ideology.  Do you wish to say that in 1991 I was able to be in command of

25     the Yugoslav People's Army and have an impact on its military territorial

Page 19810

 1     structure?

 2        A.   No.  I apologise, I didn't mean you personally.  I meant your

 3     side.  Because you changed everything without having sat at official

 4     meetings and without having gone through the official Yugoslav organs.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Was there in 1991 an SFRY Presidency, and was it not

 6     the supreme commander?  I think that should suffice, the two

 7     questions.

 8        A.   It was supposed to be the supreme commander of the armed forces

 9     of Yugoslavia, but we all know what happened instead.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the military territorial structure

11     did not correspond to the republican borders; rather, it spilled over

12     these borders so that one military district encompassed several

13     republics?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You say that Muharem Efendic, a Muslim who was the

16     commander of the barracks in Prijedor, was replaced by a Serb,

17     Colonel Arsic, in 1991; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And then you allude to the fact that there were many more such

20     cases without, in effect, giving any specific examples, save for the

21     Efendic/Arsic replacement.

22        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand.  That there were more such cases

23     in what sense?

24        Q.   You indicated that Muslim officers were being replaced by Serb

25     officers; however, other than the Efendic/Arsic case, you mention no

Page 19811

 1     other case in relation to Prijedor.

 2        A.   Well, I don't recall if I used the plural.  It was a long time

 3     ago.  But Prijedor was not a large military post.  There may have been

 4     six or seven active-duty officers at most.  Muharem Efendic was the

 5     commander of the barracks who was replaced by Arsic.  That much is true.

 6     But a new person came, Radmilo Zeljaja who, admittedly, replaced

 7     Bosko Divjak.

 8        Q.   So Zeljaja, as a Serb, came to replace a Serb; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to read out for you now the names of the

11     most important officials in the Prijedor municipality in March of 1992,

12     and then please confirm or deny what I'm saying.

13             Was the president of municipality Muhamed Cehajic a Muslim?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Vice-president of the municipality Dr. Milomir Stakic, a Serb?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   President of the Executive Committee Dr. Mico Kovacevic, a Serb?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Vice-president of the Executive Economy Dr. Enes Kursumovic, a

20     Muslim?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Secretary of the Executive Committee Husein Basic, a Muslim?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Chief of the public security station Enes Stanudzic [phoen], a

25     Muslim?

Page 19812

 1        A.   Esad Talundzic.  Esad Talundzic.

 2        Q.   A Muslim?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Chief of the Secretariat for National Defence Becir Medunjanin, a

 5     Muslim?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Police Commander Fikret Kadiric, a Muslim?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Commander of Territorial Defence Sakib Besic, a Muslim?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   President of the court Nedzad Saric, a Muslim?

12        A.   Seric, yes.

13        Q.   Municipality Prosecutor Omer Keranovic [phoen], a Muslim?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Public defender Eso Mehmedagic, a Muslim?

16        A.   I think Novo Savic and his deputy Jasminka Begic, if I remember

17     well, Predrag Novo Savic was the municipality public defender.

18        Q.   Very well.  That's ten to two or nine to three.  That would be

19     the ratio if what you're saying is true.

20        A.   Yes, but you failed to mention other institutions.  There were

21     other local bodies in Prijedor.  That was the state of play in the wake

22     of the elections that were held based on the seats won and the

23     inter-party agreement.  As far as I know.  I was never involved in these

24     issues.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that in the old socialist system as

Page 19813

 1     well as in the new system it was customary for the chief of the public

 2     security station and the police station commander not to be of the same

 3     ethnic background?

 4        A.   I don't know about that.  But now that you've asked me about it,

 5     I will give you an answer.  The first Muslim chief of the SUP -- the

 6     first Muslim to become chief of the SUP was in the 80s, and the first

 7     Muslim to become president of the municipality was also in the 80s, never

 8     before.  The mine manager was never a Muslim.  A post office director was

 9     never a Muslim.  The manager of the local bank was never a Muslim.

10     Et cetera, et cetera.

11        Q.   Do you remember that there came about a huge crisis because the

12     police commander was supposed to be a Serb since the chief of that

13     station was a Muslim, but this was not honoured and this brought about a

14     major crisis in Prijedor?

15        A.   I don't know about that.  I know that

16     Predrag [as interpreted] Kadiric was a pre-war police commander, so he

17     was not the result of those national parties attending the elections.  He

18     had been in that post for a long time before the war.

19        Q.   Thank you.  But then the chief of the station should have been a

20     Serb, because those two posts should have gone to one each, to each of

21     the communities, not to one?

22        A.   Well, I don't know.  I wasn't a member of the SDA, I wasn't a

23     member of the SDS, so I don't know what the parties agreed.  I don't know

24     about that, and I don't know the laws that were in force between the

25     parties.

Page 19814

 1        Q.   Thank you.  But you saw in the media and in the Kozarski Vjesnik

 2     periodical and in the news that there was a crisis lasting for a whole

 3     year because a Serb could not have been appointed to the post of the

 4     commander of the traffic police either; is that correct?

 5        A.   I cannot remember who the commander of the traffic police was

 6     now.  I can't remember that now.  Media is the media.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And here I refer to only those functions that are

 8     important for defence and for security - the court posts, the

 9     prosecutor's posts of the police, and people's defence.  This segment in

10     Prijedor was in this ratio nine or ten Muslims to two or three Serbs; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Yes, that is the way you presented it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And you also confirmed that it is correct that

14     Kosarac had its own Territorial Defence unit; is that correct?

15        A.   You asked me about Kozarska, but all the local communes had their

16     own.  Lubija [phoen], Omarska, Kosarac, they all had their own units.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak a

18     bit louder or to sit closer to the microphone.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The interpreters are having problems with the names of the

21     localities.  Could you please repeat them.  But generally saying, you

22     said that each local commune had their own unit?

23        A.   Each local office.  That's what I said.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And when -- you are asked -- being asked

25     by the interpreters to come closer to the microphone or speak a bit

Page 19815

 1     louder.  Thank you very much.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Each local office, and you know

 3     that the local office covered a number of local communes, the local

 4     office is like a small municipality, so each office had its own TO unit,

 5     and this was something that was structured even before the war.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And so this is something that is a result of the

 8     Law on All People's Defence; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And now you are talking about the military territorial organ

11     being introduced, and am I correct if I say that the

12     municipal Secretariat for National Defence is a civilian organ in the

13     defence structure, with a command and control line that ends at the

14     federal Secretariat for the National Defence, namely the federal -- the

15     ministry; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And am I correct if I say that the military

18     territorial organ is a military organ and that the line of command and

19     control ends at the General Staff of the JNA or of Yugoslavia?

20        A.   I'm not familiar with that area, because the military territorial

21     organ was a new institution which was supposed to start functioning

22     shortly before the war.  I was supposed to be a member of that VTO,

23     that's how we referred to it.  And my colleague

24     Muhamed Burazerovic [as interpreted] and my colleague Dzevad Habibovic

25     too; however, we did not pass the background check.  There was some kind

Page 19816

 1     of snag there, so the three of us did not get in.  But when you look at

 2     the composition of the VTO, the military territorial organ that you were

 3     talking about before, it was now 100 per cent Serbs.  All the employees

 4     in the VTO were Serbs.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But does not the name itself, the military

 6     territorial organ, say that it is a military organ that follows the

 7     military line of command and does not report to the Ministry of Defence,

 8     a part of which you were?

 9        A.   Well, I should have said that, but I didn't have the opportunity

10     to familiarise myself with all of that because war had already started

11     then.

12        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Now, you say that it was quite tense, and

13     you spoke a lot about that in your unsigned statement of 2000, on page 2,

14     that there were tensions in the municipal committee for National Defence.

15             Do you remember that in the early 1991, actually, in the summer

16     of 1991, the president of the municipality, Juhajic, and the party

17     president, SDA party, Mujadzic, actively hindered the movement of JNA

18     through the municipality, placing some obstacles and entering into

19     discussions with the JNA?  Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.  If I remember well, the main reason Mirsad Mujadzic

21     faced the JNA units was because they had taken tanks into the streets of

22     Prijedor, and their tracks were not rubber.  They were not protected

23     tracks.  They had left the military ramp, and that was the main reason he

24     did that.

25        Q.   So do you know that the president of the municipality ex officio

Page 19817

 1     is the president of the National Defence Council?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And is it true that it was not just the president of the party,

 4     but also the president of the municipality, Muhamed Juhajic, who also

 5     came out to deal with that action when obstacles were placed to the JNA?

 6        A.   I really cannot answer that question because I don't know about

 7     Muhamed Juhajic.  I know about Mirsad.  There weren't any obstacles

 8     involved.  He just placed his own private vehicle there.

 9        Q.   And then you say that the last regular mobilisation of the TO

10     took place in the spring of 1991 and then you said that Muslims were

11     receiving M-48s and the Serbs were getting automatic rifles.

12             Can you please tell me, tell all of us, who decided to

13     differentiate between Serbs and Muslims regarding defence matters?  Was

14     this something that happened at the local level, at the federal level, at

15     the military or the civilian level?

16        A.   Your Honours, I see six or seven questions here.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Did you hear that, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I agree.  But had I more

19     time, there would be fewer questions.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So did you say that the last regular mobilisation was in the

22     spring of 1991, and did you say that the weapons issued were different?

23        A.   The last mobilisation that took place was in 1991, without

24     rifles.  The second question, rifles were distributed, and I'm talking

25     about the detachment we were talking about a couple of minutes before.

Page 19818

 1     In the same detachment there were automatic and semi-automatic rifles

 2     distributed to the Serbs, and M-48s were distributed to the Muslims.  I'm

 3     talking about the detachment, when mobilisation had already been carried

 4     out.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And, now, let's see, the local level -- was it the

 6     local level or was it the federal level that decided to differentiate

 7     between Serbs and Muslims in matters of defence?

 8        A.   Well, how can I answer this question?  I don't think it was the

 9     federal level, because they couldn't come down to Prijedor.  But I think

10     that this came from the TO staff.  And I know you will ask me because

11     Sakib Bekic [as interpreted] was the commander but Rade Javoric was there

12     too and Vrdar and tons of others.  It was Sakib Besic and Vahid Ceric in

13     the TO staff, and the rest were Serbs.

14        Q.   But Vahid and Sakib, well, the participants don't know our names,

15     they are Muslims; right?

16        A.   Yes, they are Muslims.

17        Q.   And one of them was the chief of the TO; is that right?

18        A.   Yes, Sakib Besic.

19        Q.   And, please, can you tell us if you know when the SDA party

20     adopted a negative stance in relation to the JNA and the armed forces?

21        A.   Well, I don't know.  I wasn't a member of the party, so I

22     wouldn't know.

23        Q.   But you are aware that Muslim leaders decided, advised, and even

24     ordered Muslims not to take part in the mobilisation, not to respond to

25     the summons for mobilisation?

Page 19819

 1        A.   I did hear that.  But I don't see anything bad in not going to

 2     war and not spilling blood.  I don't believe that that is a crime.

 3        Q.   And why do armies exist, Mr. Mesanovic?

 4        A.   Excellent question.  The Yugoslav People's Army was formed and

 5     established in order to defend its people from the outside enemy, not

 6     from constituents of the JNA or from friends and relatives.

 7        Q.   And do you recall what was the constitutional task of the JNA,

 8     defence of the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia and even the defence

 9     of the system of self-management; is that correct?

10        A.   Well, I think that that was more the job of the police, a

11     systemic task.  The system was defended by the police.

12        Q.   And the territorial integrity was defended by the army and it did

13     not require anyone's order to do that; this was its constitutional task.

14     Is that correct?

15        A.   And from the outside enemy.  I don't think that it was ever

16     defined in the constitution that we should be fighting amongst ourselves,

17     but that we should defend ourselves from outside enemies and in that way

18     we defend our own territorial integrity.

19        Q.   And can internal forces also endanger the territorial integrity

20     in an unconstitutional way?

21        A.   Yes, but I already said that as far as I can recall from the

22     constitution this was the job of the police.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You are also aware that the police really was charged

24     with terrorist and other acts to the extent that it was able to deal with

25     them; but when republican armies are created that are exceeding the power

Page 19820

 1     and capacity of the police, then that is something that the army can do?

 2        A.   If the republican armies exist.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So this decision not to respond to the call-up for

 4     mobilisation, this decision by the Muslims, who made this decision?  Was

 5     it your local level or did this relate back to that call from Sarajevo?

 6        A.   Well, that's not clear to me because there was never an official

 7     document that came and stated that Muslims should not respond to the

 8     call-up.  It was a voluntary decision by each conscript.

 9        Q.   And did not Mr. Izetbegovic state this publicly, that he would

10     not let his son respond to the call-up, he wouldn't tell him to do so; do

11     you recall that?

12        A.   Yes, I do remember that.  But I don't think that that was a

13     crime.  And I also recall that you said that one people would disappear

14     from the earth.

15        Q.   Well, Mr. Mesanovic, if this is something that you happen to

16     remember, Mr. Izetbegovic stated this in early 1991, and I, in late 1991,

17     on the 14th or the 15th of October, begged not to go for independence

18     before the transformation and that that would be a dangerous thing, first

19     of all for the Muslims.  Is that what you're talking about, my speech at

20     the Assembly?

21        A.   Well, yes, political disagreement is not a crime.

22        Q.   Political disagreement should not influence the defence

23     capacities of a country; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, if we are attacked from the outside.

25        Q.   And do you know, Mr. Mesanovic, that Prijedor in the first two

Page 19821

 1     maps of Cutileiro's, in the first one it was supposed to be a canton made

 2     up of Muslim parts in the Sana river valley from Prijedor, Sanski Most,

 3     and Kljuc; and in the second map, the whole of Sanski Most and the whole

 4     of Prijedor was supposed to be part of the Muslim unit, the Muslim

 5     canton.  Do you recall those maps, and do you know that I accepted those

 6     maps with the exception of some Serbian villages which would remain in

 7     the Banja Luka Krajina?  Do you remember that?

 8        A.   Well, if all of that happened before the war, then I don't see

 9     any reason why we needed those maps in the first place.  Why were there

10     any preparations for such maps?  We lived fantastically for 40 or

11     50 years.  This is your ideology.  Until you came with your ideology.

12        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, are you saying that it was more important that I

13     appeared or that the Muslim side decided to leave Yugoslavia?

14        A.   Well, you have to keep in mind that --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let's come to issues.  I'm struggling

16     to understand the relevance of your lines of questioning.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, I'm going through

18     what the witness said at different times, and that seems important to me.

19     And it can be seen from the question and the allegation by Mr. Mesanovic

20     that my political emergence led to a disruption of our life together, and

21     I'm saying that that was not so but that it was the decision on secession

22     that led to that.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, we lived together well in Yugoslavia; is that

25     correct?

Page 19822

 1        A.   And in Bosnia.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Mesanovic testified about his

 3     detention and what he saw at the detention centre.  Why don't you come to

 4     the issue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, there is again

 6     the question of what it is that I should omit of the things that the

 7     Prosecution placed in the amalgamated statement.  If that can in any way

 8     damage my position, then I have to go through it.  Otherwise why did not

 9     the Prosecution exclusively then deal with that?  However, it's a fact

10     that this witness was arrested, and we need to see which circumstances he

11     was arrested in and why.  It's not just Omarska.  It's the entire

12     situation that is part of his testimony in the amalgamated statement.

13     But I will try to narrow this down now, in any case.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's proceed.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You looked at the documents today and you also said, on page 7,

17     that they were removed from the SDA, and so on.

18             Do you remember that the Serbian municipality of Prijedor was

19     proclaimed and that Cehajic began to form the Muslim municipality of

20     Prijedor?

21        A.   I know about the proclamation of the Serbian municipality.  As

22     for this other thing, I don't know about that.  And I think that even if

23     he had wanted to do it, it was already too late, because you had done

24     that already very quickly.

25        Q.   So if there are two municipalities, Mr. Mesanovic, is it natural

Page 19823

 1     that Serbian jobs in the Serbian municipality would be performed by

 2     Serbian officials and not officials of the SDA who have completely

 3     opposite interests?

 4        A.   Yes, provided there were two municipalities.  In my view, there

 5     were not two municipalities.  There was one which was legitimate and the

 6     other one which was illegitimate, that -- the Serbian municipality.

 7        Q.   But do you know that Mr. Cehajic agreed to cross over to the

 8     other bank of the Sana and to establish the municipality and the police

 9     force?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Mesanovic, that even with such division of the

12     municipalities it was possible for both Muslims and Croats to work at the

13     Serbian municipality with a proviso that they take an oath and sign the

14     declaration that they would abide by the laws and the constitution?

15        A.   Whose laws and whose constitution?  To whom should they have

16     signed this oath?

17        Q.   But you know there that the constitution of Republika Srpska came

18     into force on the 27th of March?

19        A.   And that means that we should have been loyal to the Serbs; is

20     that what you're asking me?

21        Q.   Well, Mr. Mesanovic, if you agreed to live in Republika Srpska

22     and to work in its state organs, it is only natural that under new

23     circumstances and under a new political system you would declare that you

24     accept this new republic, its laws, and its constitution.

25        A.   Well, that was an illegal republic in 1992.  So why should I

Page 19824

 1     become a people out of the law, a terrorist, instead of being a normal

 2     person?

 3        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, do you know that we were given a right to

 4     constitute a republic on the 18th of March, 1992?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   And that included our right to have the police and possibly the

 7     national guard, but we were entitled to have all our executive

 8     legislative branch organs, such as education, schooling, et cetera.  Do

 9     you know what was envisaged by this agreement?

10             JUDGE KWON:  This is all argumentative.  Let's proceed to your

11     next topic.  Mr. Mesanovic already said he doesn't -- he didn't know,

12     then there's no point of continuing that line of question.  Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  But then his general

14     answers should be viewed in a different light.  His saying that the

15     Republika Srpska was an illegal entity acquires a new meaning.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You knew that before power was taken over on the 30th of April,

18     happened after telegram arrived from Alija Delimustafic, which requested

19     military action to be taken against the barracks, the army depots, the

20     JNA, and the Serbs of Prijedor; is that correct?

21        A.   Your Honours, I apologise, but, without saying yes or no, all I

22     can say is that I know nothing about this telegram.  This telegram has

23     been mentioned in all the trials that I have been involved in so far, but

24     I am really keen to finally see this telegram.  I think this is just a

25     fabrication, that it is product of somebody's imagination that this

Page 19825

 1     telegram arrived.

 2        Q.   On page 31124 of your testimony --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's 1D04422, if we can call up

 4     this document.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   -- you confirmed there that you knew that power was taken over

 7     after the arrival of this telegram.

 8        A.   No.  There may have been some mention of the telegram arriving on

 9     the 29th or 30th, but I don't say that it's being -- continuously being

10     mentioned and putting to me in a fictitious way, but the fact is that you

11     took over power on the 30th of April.  I have never seen this telegram,

12     and I don't think the Court has seen it either.

13        Q.   Since you were working for the SUP, you didn't receive these kind

14     of telegrams, but did you receive this telegram or telegrams of that

15     nature through defence lines?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Let us look at it, and I'm going to read in English:

18             [In English] [As read] "All right.  Now, was the immediate cause

19     for the take-over a telegram which the head of the public security

20     station whose name was, I think, Hasan Talundzic?

21             "A.  Talundzic, yes.

22             "Q.  He was the chief of the police in Prijedor, and this

23     telegram was sent by Alija Delimustafic, the minister, asking for action

24     to be taken to block the barracks, seize the weapons from the JNA, and

25     similar acts, and that by mistake it came into the hands of the Serbs in

Page 19826

 1     Prijedor too.  Do you know all about that?

 2             "A.  No.  I worked in the Secretariat for National Defence and

 3     not in the SUP.

 4             "Q.  Well, that dispatch was sent on the 30th -- or, rather,

 5     28th [sic] of April, and on 30th they took over the main institutions.

 6     Do you know about that?

 7             "A.  Yes, the Serbs took control on the 30th in the morning at

 8     around 5.00."

 9             [Interpretation] Are you saying that the Chamber hasn't seen this

10     either?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D400, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  You see the problem of complex questions here again.

13     To which was the answer "yes" answer to.  Let us proceed.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have D400.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you see to whom this is being sent?  And it says here that

17     this is the implementation of the decision of the commander of the

18     Territorial Defence and the president of the republic's decision and it's

19     being put into practice, and total blockage is being ordered here.  You

20     didn't know about this?

21        A.   I categorically say that I didn't.

22        Q.   Since it was dispatched through MUP lines?

23        A.   I told you what I was doing before the war.  I was never within

24     those top circles, either in executive branch or in political circles.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09042.

Page 19827

 1     09042.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is this the Territorial Defence staff of RBH?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   And we see that it is being sent to all defence and Territorial

 6     Defence organs.  It says directive for defending sovereignty and

 7     independence of the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8             Are you aware that Hasan Efendic issued this immediately upon his

 9     appointment?

10        A.   This is a staff of Territorial Defence of the Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas I was under the jurisdiction of the

12     Republican Secretariat for National Defence.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page to see

14     who the recipients are and who signed this document.  We need the last

15     page.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You see where it says, under item 4 which says "I have decided,"

18     and here we see who the recipients are; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.  TO, TO, TO, TO, TO.

20        Q.   And you're trying to say that the TO had never received this

21     telegram?

22        A.   No, they hadn't.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Then we are going to tender this through another

24     witness.

25             Do you know that the Muslims themselves sent this to me the very

Page 19828

 1     following day because they were concerned about this, they admitted that

 2     this had come from them, and they were surprised that it arrived on my

 3     desk so soon?

 4        A.   I don't know.  You said that you did receive it.

 5        Q.   Do you remember me publicising this?

 6        A.   No, I don't.

 7        Q.   And then you say, on the 30th, a propaganda campaign was

 8     launched.  Do you agree, Mr. Mesanovic, that the Muslim position

 9     vis-à-vis the conference and the defence of the country and the unity of

10     the country was diametrically opposed to that of the Serbs?

11        A.   I don't know in which respect particularly.

12        Q.   Was the Muslim side bent on leaving Yugoslavia at any cost?  Did

13     they first accept the Lisbon Agreement and after that rejected it in the

14     hope of seeing the Serbs giving up on their ideas and that they would

15     have a unified Bosnia under their full control?  Were those the

16     difference between Muslims and Serbs?

17        A.   I never attended any talks between you or Izetbegovic or any

18     other people involved in those games.

19        Q.   You said today that you had been sent to be on standby until

20     further notice.  You often confuse that with dismissal.  Is it true that

21     you were sent home to be on standby and that they were -- that you were

22     recalled to come back to work at a later stage?

23        A.   I was sent home to be on standby on the 22nd, just like the other

24     seven people.  I was called back because they couldn't find an adequate

25     replacement for me.  When I finished my job, I was arrested.  So

Page 19829

 1     officially my employment was not terminated on the 22nd because I didn't

 2     receive any written decision.  There was just this gap.  I needed a

 3     couple of days more because I was on the list for arrest on the

 4     14th of June, but they gave me this grace period of ten more days in

 5     order for me to be able to complete my job.  All these decisions that

 6     they issued are worthless.  What about those people who were killed and

 7     people who never received any decisions?

 8        Q.   Let's stick to your experience.  Can you tell me, please, how far

 9     is Banja Luka from Prijedor?

10        A.   54 kilometres.

11        Q.   And was the system of communication, telephone communications,

12     and transportational links more or less operational?

13        A.   In what period?

14        Q.   From April until May.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

16     questions and answers.

17             JUDGE KWON:  It's impossible for the interpreters if you overlap

18     to such a degree.  Let's start again.  From April until May; that was the

19     question.  And, Mr. Mesanovic, could you repeat your answer.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   From the outbreak of conflict in Sarajevo in April until the date

22     of your arrest, did you have telephone lines with Banja Luka?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the answer because

24     it was overlapping.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, your answer was what?  Could you repeat the

Page 19830

 1     answer.  They didn't hear your answer.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on a daily basis, as far as

 3     telephone connections are concerned.  But as for transportation links, I

 4     don't know.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know that there was a Rudi Cajavec factory in Banja Luka,

 7     that there were many people who were expert in IT, and that you were

 8     their only recourse?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the question.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Before your arrest.  You said that --

13             Your answer was "yes" but it was not recorded.

14             The question was:  Were you offered, although you were never

15     forced, to sign a solemn declaration or a pledge, call it what you will,

16     to the Serbian municipality and to remain in work?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And then you said that already on the 3rd of May a

19     check-point was set up by the patriotic league and the defence of

20     Kozarac.

21        A.   No, I didn't say that.

22        Q.   It's contained in your evidence given in the President Milosevic

23     trial on the 20th of January, 2004, page 31147.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4422.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19831

 1        Q.   You said that Omarska and a number of Serbian villages came under

 2     blockade.

 3        A.   Excuse me, who said that?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Are we going to see the Milosevic transcript?  Yes?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lines 10 to 15.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please look at your answer:

 8             [In English] "I don't know where else it could have been.  After

 9     Kozarac, you have Serb villages, Lamovita, Omarska, and so on."

10             Then there was a question:

11             "Q.  ... blocked; is that right?

12             "A.  Yes, that's right ... but ... that's what the Serb

13     authorities said.

14             "Q.  And you don't know about it [sic]?

15             "A.  Well, I wasn't there."

16             [Interpretation] And so on.

17             JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continued] ... here again,

18     Mr. Karadzic, I don't think witness can confirm the fact that it was set

19     up by a patriotic league.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're going to find it.  Who else

21     could have set it up other than the patriotic league and the Defence of

22     Kozarac?  And the end he said "I heard about --"

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's comment.

24             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, we can take a break now.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

Page 19832

 1             JUDGE KWON:  For half an hour.  And resume at 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, let's try and recapitulate.  Will you agree that

 8     regardless of the events in Bosanski Brod of the 26th of March, in

 9     Bijeljina of the 31st of March, in Kupres, et cetera, that the war broke

10     out in Sarajevo on the 6th of April?

11        A.   I believe that that is true.  That's when the incident happened.

12        Q.   So regardless of the telegram of the 12th of April, which you

13     didn't see, all the way through to the 30th of April, more or less, there

14     were no significant events occurring in your area; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Then on the 30th of April the Serbs took over power, you were not

17     aware of the fact that Cehajic wanted to set up a municipality; you

18     weren't aware of these issues?

19        A.   No, I wasn't.

20        Q.   And then all the way through to the 22nd of May until the ambush

21     at the Hambarine check-point, and the incident where two Serb reservists

22     were killed, two seriously wounded, two lightly wounded, in that period

23     there weren't significant events happening; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And then there came about the call to surrender weapons and the

Page 19833

 1     crisis surrounding Kozarac; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On the 22nd of May, you are sent home, where your status of

 4     employment is frozen; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Then we have the 30th of April.  Is it true that on the

 7     30th of April the Green Berets, the Patriotic League, the various units

 8     of Territorial Defence of various localities more or less under the

 9     command of Ecimovic mount an attack on Prijedor from various directions?

10        A.   Not on the 30th of April.

11        Q.   On the 30th of May?

12        A.   Yes.  I was there and I felt it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that throughout that day, and possibly

14     even on the next, there were skirmishes, there was fighting going on in

15     the town and possibly around it as well?

16        A.   I don't know what was going on in the town.  I heard shooting, I

17     heard explosions, and I saw smoke.  What was actually going on, I don't

18     know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that Radio Prijedor broadcast a message

20     to the effect that those who were not involved in fighting should stay in

21     their homes and that these homes where nobody would be involved in any

22     fire should hang up white sheets?

23        A.   Radio Prijedor did make an announcement for all the family homes,

24     including flats, that they should place some sort of white cloth or

25     sheet.  They should hang them outside their windows, and that this would

Page 19834

 1     be a sure sign of where no fight would be forthcoming.

 2        Q.   And were Serb soldiers marked with white ribbons?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And did the Serbs fire at those who had ribbons by way of a

 5     marking?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   This is where the problem arises, Witness, when you start

 8     thinking about it.  Is it not true that they made an announcement that

 9     those who do not intend to take part in the fighting or shooting should

10     hang out a white symbol of sorts?

11        A.   Well, but how come it was only us who had to set ourselves apart

12     by certain markings and not the Serbs as well?  Why was it just the

13     Muslims?  Why weren't the Serbs called upon to hang out white sheets?

14        Q.   And who specified that it was just to be the Muslims?

15        A.   It was the radio broadcast that mentioned only the Muslims.  I

16     cannot quote what Radio Prijedor broadcast word for word, but I know for

17     that fact there was no mention for the need for the Serbs to hang out

18     white sheets from their windows.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Mesanovic, what was the reason stated behind this

20     request?

21        A.   Well, I really can't be called upon to quote the exact words of

22     what happened in -- on the 30th of May, 1992.  I only know that we were

23     supposed to mark off specifically homes, gates, front doors.  What I'm

24     not clear on is why only we were called upon to do that and not you as

25     well.

Page 19835

 1        Q.   We'll deal with it later.  Was it not also requested of the

 2     population that they should stay in their homes, not get involved in

 3     fighting?  Was that not the case?

 4        A.   Well, yes, when the fighting subsided, all these civilians were

 5     rounded up in their individual homes, put on buses, and taken to --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.  Can the

 7     witness repeat the last part of his answer.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You know what happens when -- when you have a situation of chaos

10     where you can't stop to think, you merely round up everyone, and then you

11     conduct triage; is that how it was done?

12        A.   Yes.  Everybody was rounded up and taken to Trnopolje.

13        Q.   You were looking at this document today which was adopted.  Give

14     me a moment.  It's part of your amalgamated statement at page 54475.

15     Where it is stated that all the Serbs who were -- is it 38?  Yes, 38

16     amalgamated statement.

17             So you do recall that you said that there was this decision dated

18     the 2nd of June, a day after the fighting ended, the decision was issued

19     which said, "all Serbs who have been in prison by mistake are hereby

20     released from further imprisonment."  Is that right?

21        A.   Can I have a look at that?

22        Q.   Page 38, and these are minutes of the meeting held on the

23     2nd of June, 1992.  It was a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the

24     municipality of Prijedor, which adopted a series of decisions on the

25     release of detainees.  Do you recall that there were Serbs among them who

Page 19836

 1     had not been apprehended by mistake and who stayed in detention?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Item 2 states:

 4             "All military personnel -- all soldiers and military personnel

 5     who have been detained by mistake while actually on leave with the

 6     authorization of appropriate military authorities are hereby released

 7     from further imprisonment."

 8             So you were aware of this?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So first they round them up on and then on the following day they

11     proceeded to do the triage; right?

12        A.   Yes.  Because it so happened that a number of Serbs were among

13     those rounded up, one, two, or three of them.  But most of the population

14     in that part of town were Muslims.

15        Q.   The question as I put it was not recorded properly, so they -- as

16     they were rounding them up from their homes, they were not conducting

17     triage.  It was on the following day that they proceeded to do so; right?

18        A.   Probably so.

19        Q.   It then goes on to say that those aged 60 and over who are shown

20     not to have committed any infraction are to be released forthwith; is

21     that right?

22        A.   Well, if that's what you are reading, I suppose that's what it

23     is.

24        Q.   Item 5 goes on to say -- Article 5 goes on to say that all those

25     prisoners who, in a legal procedure carried out by competent organs, are

Page 19837

 1     found not to be guilty are to be released forthwith; is that right?

 2        A.   That's not something that I saw happen in reality, either the

 3     competence or the release from Omarska.

 4        Q.   Well, we will sort it out quite nicely now, Mr. Mesanovic.

 5             Were you examined by inspectors once and twice, once in the

 6     presence of an experienced inspector and the second time it was a

 7     not-so-competent inspector?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you were questioned about information that they had come by

10     in some other examinations?

11        A.   Well, no.  Both these inspectors, professional policemen who were

12     examining me, were incompetent, and they were asking me about nonsense.

13        Q.   We'll see about that.  You were in the MUP building, were you

14     not?

15        A.   Yes, the SUP.

16        Q.   Please make a pause.

17        A.   Yes, I apologise.

18        Q.   What was the size of the detention unit in that building?  How

19     many people could be detained there?

20        A.   Well, I don't know what the standards were.  The room was 5 by 6,

21     perhaps, with a protrusion in one of the walls, without toilet

22     facilities.  There was a bed frame, a couple of blankets, and there were

23     eight of us there when I was there.

24        Q.   This was the detention unit in the public security station and it

25     could not accommodate more individuals, could it have?

Page 19838

 1        A.   Well, I'm sure that if they had more people, they would have

 2     pushed them in.  I don't think they really cared about standards.

 3        Q.   Very well.  So when they apprehended close to 3,000 individuals,

 4     could they have put them into the public security station and examined

 5     them there?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   When they put them up in Keraterm and realised that the facility

 8     there were too small, did they not open up Omarska?

 9        A.   Well, I couldn't specifically tell you how many individuals were

10     held in Keraterm because I wasn't there and I don't know who had been

11     apprehended before the 30th.  I suppose it was a multitude of individuals

12     who had to be put up somewhere safely.  I think that they cared mostly

13     about safety and security, rather than the premises they chose.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You testified about the fact that the inspectors came

15     at 8.00 and left at 5.00; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You also testified that there were different shifts of people,

18     some of which were quite cruel, engaging in harassment, and even murder

19     of people; is that right?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   So how did you explain what the difference was about, and I mean

22     the difference in the various shifts of people?

23        A.   Well, it's probably dependent on the people, the guards who made

24     up a shift.  All of us are different, some a bit better, some worse.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You say that among them there were drunkards,

Page 19839

 1     psychopaths, and that these shifts were unbearable?

 2        A.   Well, I don't want to talk about psychopaths.  I can't speak

 3     about that.  But there were definitely drunkards.  And if we're talking

 4     in terms of psychopaths, then I can tell you that all of them were

 5     psychopaths.

 6        Q.   Very well, you say that they would beat people up once the

 7     inspectors had left; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   At page 38, you say -- a moment, please.  Have a look at that

10     page:

11             [In English] "Going back to Article 1 of the decision, 'all Serbs

12     who have been imprisoned by mistake are hereby released from further

13     imprisonment.'  Do you see any reference to Muslims or non-Serbs who have

14     been imprisoned by mistake, whether they are hereby released from further

15     imprisonment?"

16             Witness: "No, I don't see anywhere that non-Serbs or Muslims are

17     being released.  Only Serbs are being released from further

18     imprisonment."

19             [Interpretation] Do you stand by that statement today?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, do you know that out of these detention units and

22     investigation prison in Prijedor, 59 per cent were released and

23     41 per cent were sent to Manjaca?

24        A.   Are you talking about the 6th of August and the point when

25     Omarska was closed, or are we talking about the period while it was still

Page 19840

 1     in existence?

 2        Q.   I'm asking about the period when it still existed.  Were not

 3     people released gradually even as the investigation unfolded?

 4        A.   Let's make things clear.  As you say, 59 per cent were released

 5     on the 6th of August to Prijedor, and then 41 were released to Manjaca,

 6     and only a hundred were -- stayed behind in order to take pictures of

 7     them in pajamas, in proper beds, and having a meal.  But during the one

 8     and a half months of the existence of Omarska, the 45 days that I spent

 9     there, I know only of two individuals having left Omarska.  And they were

10     dead.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch their names.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And both of these supposedly died

13     of natural causes.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, I think that the sarcasm is not necessary.  Our war was

16     cruel enough, so that there is no need to leave out the truth.  The truth

17     is black enough as it is.  If you want to be a witness, you need to show

18     a little bit of objectivity.

19        A.   I apologise.  First of all I'm a victim, and then I'm a witness.

20     And I'm telling you what -- and what I'm saying is the truth.  The

21     beginning of the war, May, June, July, at the beginning, in Prijedor, not

22     a single bullet was fired, as far as I know, by those who were expelled,

23     beaten, raped, all their property was confiscated.

24        Q.   One by one.  How come no bullet was fired when Prijedor, on the

25     30th of May, was attacked from four directions?

Page 19841

 1        A.   Because I had began to work after that attack.  There was a story

 2     about the infamous hand-grenade which dropped in front of the SUP, and if

 3     you know what a bomb is, then you know that a small crater has to be left

 4     behind.  There was no crater.  There was nothing on the wall, on the

 5     window.  On the 30th, all the Muslim homes were demolished.  No Serbian

 6     homes were demolished or damaged in the fighting.

 7        Q.   We are going to go back to that.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  And could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the

10     number.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mesanovic, you referred to the two individuals

12     who left Omarska and died.  The interpreters couldn't catch the names.

13     Could you repeat the names, kindly?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of them was Safet Ramadanovic.

15     He was a private businessman from Prijedor, an elderly man.  He was older

16     than 60.  The second one was Ganic.  He also was older than 60.  They

17     were carried out in coffins.  They died of natural causes after a

18     beating.  And the TV said that it was due to natural causes, but I

19     actually saw them being beaten, or after they were beaten.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat the number of the document you

22     want to show us.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04428.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you know who Dr. Ibrahim Beglerbegovic is?

Page 19842

 1        A.   Yes, I do.  He was released from Omarska.  He was in Omarska for

 2     a day or two, I can't remember exactly, but he was released from there.

 3        Q.   Alive?

 4        A.   Yes, alive.  I skipped over one individual in a cycle of 5- to

 5     6,000 people.  And if that is a good deed, then I apologise for all that

 6     I have said.  To release one person.

 7        Q.   Witness, sir, it's not about good deeds.  It's about the fact

 8     that he was arrested by mistake.  This is a confirmation from the MUP and

 9     from the Ministry of Defence that this is to certify that

10     Mr. Beglerbegovic was erroneously detained and that he was being sent to

11     work duty and there are instructions that he should not be touched by

12     anyone?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.  But the date is 1995.  We're talking about

14     1992.

15        Q.   What about the top confirmation or certificate?

16        A.   Oh, the one at the top.  I'm sorry, I didn't see that one.

17        Q.   It's from the 24th of July.

18        A.   Yes, yes, I see it.

19        Q.   On the 24th of July, it says captured or detained by mistake?

20        A.   Yes, that is right.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document,

22     please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says that it was a

24     mistake.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

Page 19843

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1745, Your Honours.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You have just now mentioned the question of property, so I have

 4     to deviate from my line of questioning.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 03584.  This is 1D.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Sir, Mr. Mesanovic, do you see that on that same, the

 8     2nd of June, 1992, the Crisis Staff issued an order to prevent looting

 9     and robbing and to protect private and socially owned property?

10        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this, please.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Is Mr. Karadzic going to put a question to the

15     witness about the document?

16             JUDGE KWON:  What was your question, Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question was, does he see that

18     on the same day, the 2nd of June, in terms of what the witness said about

19     the confiscation of property, the Crisis Staff issued an order that

20     improperly taken property should be returned and that private and

21     socially owned property should be protected from robbery and looting, and

22     he confirmed that that is what the document states, which was issued at

23     that time.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So according to this document, I

25     can reclaim and have all of my property returned to me, and all the

Page 19844

 1     others too.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Who took your property from you, Mr. Mesanovic?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know their first and last name.  It was the

 5     SDS Prijedor.

 6        Q.   Was your property confiscated or looted?

 7        A.   Well, I was driven out and everything stayed in their hands, as

 8     they called it.  I voluntarily signed that I was voluntarily leaving, but

 9     actually I escaped and my wife signed that form.

10        Q.   Well, we will come to that.  But as for your property, was it

11     taken away by some kind of legal document or did it stay behind and was

12     it robbed?

13        A.   According to this, it states that the police should have

14     protected me.  I was not protected.  I was left without all the things

15     that I had after 33 years of my life and after 13 years of work.  I don't

16     know what you call that.  If I was not protected and if it wasn't robbed,

17     then it was the legal authorities who took my property.

18        Q.   Can you look at paragraph 1, that the authorities are aware that

19     these are robberies or looting and they are preventing the confiscation

20     of property?

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mesanovic, could you repeat your answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2007, I went to court in Sarajevo,

25     and they showed me a photograph of my car.  When I, at least, asked for

Page 19845

 1     the photograph of my car, I wasn't allowed to have it.  They said that it

 2     was a court document.

 3             Mr. Karadzic, the legal authorities did not provide any kind of

 4     paper for the things that they took from me and others.  And you know

 5     very well that all the savings, all the money in the bank accounts,

 6     was -- were robbed.  Why would somebody leave something behind

 7     voluntarily?  Why would they be crazy to leave with only a plastic bag

 8     with a few items in their hands?

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Well, I'm coming back to this because you said on page 47 that

11     the property was confiscated.  Confiscation is a legally regulated way of

12     taking away property.  I'm not disputing the fact that you were robbed,

13     but this document indicates that the authorities were aware that this was

14     happening and this is an attempt at prevention.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On my part?

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   No, no, I wouldn't have shown to you this document had you not

19     said that this was robbery or confiscation, and I --

20        A.   I think that it's a play on words whether it's confiscation or

21     robbery.  Me and thousands of other people were left without their

22     property, and you can call that whatever you want.

23        Q.   Well, me too, Witness.  I had a five room apartment full of all

24     sorts of things that I no longer have.  It was left behind.  And we can

25     go back and forth about the way to formulate this and play with legal

Page 19846

 1     terms.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again it's comment.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Unacceptable, Mr. Karadzic.  We do not -- we will

 5     not admit this through this witness.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the witness confirmed that

 7     the -- it was not confiscation but that it was looting or robbery.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Better said that it was left behind

 9     and it was never restored to me again.  I don't know how you would

10     classify that.  I have still not been able to have my property restored

11     to me.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you, is it true that you were told that you were prisoners

14     of war?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And is it correct that Zeljko Mejakic told you that your

17     statement is no good and that you need to change it in order -- if you

18     wished to be released?

19        A.   I don't think that there was any question of release, but he just

20     said that my statement was no good.  It was taken by Ratko Milosavljevic,

21     and I don't know whether that's the story that we talked about.  I mean,

22     this was a story about nice weather, conditionally speaking, and then he

23     came to tell me that the statement was no good, that the statement would

24     be taken again by his uncle, so I never repeated it again.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And is it correct that this Maric was charged -

Page 19847

 1     besides these 100.000 for telling secrets to Croatia, betraying secrets -

 2     for issuing military certificates relieving conscripts of the duty to

 3     serve?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know that was wrongly attributed to him or it's a

 5     wrong interpretation.  He didn't work in the secretariat, had nothing to

 6     do with these certificates.  Maric began to work -- he ended his work in

 7     1991 when he went to Manjaca.  He never worked again.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please repeat what they're

 9     saying.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mesanovic, do you see the transcript?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So when the transcript stops moving, that's the time

13     when you are suggested starting your answer.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Where should we start again?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thus, is it correct that you were told that Maric admitted and

18     named you as his accomplice in these acts in relation to Croatia?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is it correct that you were also charged with issuing permits

21     which were used by military conscripts to get off serving their military

22     term of duty?

23        A.   Not from serving.  There was some kind of charge regarding the

24     failure to go to the front.  I don't have the indictment.  I mean, it was

25     really whatever just they thought of to put in there.

Page 19848

 1        Q.   And is it correct, do you remember that the Muslim/Croat part of

 2     the Presidency declared war on the 20th of June to us and to the JNA, or,

 3     rather, to Serbia and Montenegro and the Bosnian Serbs?

 4        A.   I don't know about that.  The restrictions were already in force.

 5     And at that time all we had was TV Banja Luka, which was under the

 6     control of the SDS.  So everything that was broadcast on that a TV

 7     station, I knew.  Everything else, I don't know.  I still don't know to

 8     this very day, from 1992 onwards.

 9        Q.   But this was published before you were arrested, that war was

10     declared against us.  And you were arrested when?

11        A.   On the 24th.

12        Q.   The 24th.  And these were the grounds for your arrest, that

13     Stjepan Maric named you as being an accomplice of his and that were

14     publishing or issuing.  Was there anything else that you were charged

15     with?

16        A.   I was not arrested after Maric.  I was arrested before Maric was.

17     Maric was still at liberty after I was arrested, so there is no connection

18     between myself and between him.  There are no actions, no dirty deeds.

19     That is one thing that is certain.  Had I taken information to Zagreb and

20     put 100.000 in my pocket, I would have been an idiot to come back with

21     that amount of money.  Only an idiot would have done that.  I asked at the

22     time, I said that it was very easy to check when the hard drive disk was

23     taken from the machine and how long it was gone.  I mean, machinery is

24     precise.  But nobody paid any attention to that and they were asking for

25     100.000 German marks.  Kozarski Vjesnik newspaper published this stupidity.

Page 19849

 1     Simply they needed games and preparation for what would follow later.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm not accusing you of having actually done that.  All I'm

 3     interested in are grounds for your arrest.  You said that in 1991 Maric

 4     went to Manjaca; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So he was arrested before you were; is that right?

 7        A.   Arrested at Manjaca and then returned home.  And he was in

 8     Prijedor the whole time unemployed.

 9        Q.   But questioned?

10        A.   Questioned in Omarska before.  -- one day before I was, and that

11     was when he was killed.

12        Q.   Before you were arrested, one day before you were arrested, this

13     was, and then you were arrested, and then you were told that he mentioned

14     you in connection with him?

15        A.   I said that Maric was arrested after me and that he was

16     interrogated the day before I was.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And so they did not put the third thing to you?  Did

18     they put anything else to you?

19        A.   Well, yes, they talked about drugs from Germany and so on.  They

20     said I was selling it in Prijedor.

21        Q.   And did this prove to be true or did they abandon the charges?

22        A.   I have no idea what kind of criminal investigation.  There was no

23     official indictment.  Zoric knew me very well.  He knew my past, he knew

24     my family.  These were just stories.  We were acquaintances.  We were not

25     people who don't know anything about each other.  He knew everything

Page 19850

 1     about me, he knew where my brother was, how long, when he was coming, and

 2     so on and so forth.

 3        Q.   Witness, let's take it easy.  It's another thing that he knew you

 4     privately.  You were officially detained on suspicion of such and such a

 5     thing one day after being mentioned by Stjepan Maric.  They held you and

 6     interrogated you and ultimately decided not to issue an indictment and

 7     they took you back.

 8        A.   Well, I apologise.  On the 24th of June, I was arrested.  I don't

 9     know when Maric was arrested.  Maric was interrogated on the 1st of July,

10     I was interrogated on the 2nd of July.  We were both in Omarska.  There

11     was only ten hours between the interrogation of Maric and myself.

12        Q.   Without going into what Maric or anybody else did, the fact is

13     that you were charged with a number of things but eventually they did not

14     press any charges against you and you were set free.

15        A.   I was set free at the same time as the others were.

16        Q.   Had something of this turned out to be true, would you have been

17     released?

18        A.   It is true that I was on the list for execution.  That's correct.

19     I was removed for the -- from the cooling list on the 2nd of July.  That

20     was told to me by a driver of --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't get the name of the

22     person.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Therefore, this was not based on

24     any facts.  There was just a list of people who were to be executed.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters couldn't hear the names you

Page 19851

 1     referred to.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a nickname.  Brk.  I don't

 3     know his name.  I cannot remember it at the moment.  He was the driver of

 4     Zeljko Mejakic, the camp commander.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And you have no other proof that lists for execution existed

 7     except what you were told by Brk?

 8        A.   I think I have seen a document here with a list of people who

 9     were executed.  And then in September decisions were issued to the effect

10     of conducting investigations against them.  This document was shown to me

11     either in the Brdjanin or the Milosevic case.

12        Q.   On page 40 of your amalgamated statement, you were asked about

13     three different categories of detainees; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Those were marked as categories 1, 2, and 3.  Let me ask you

16     this:  Was -- do you have the same proverb, you as Muslims, that we as

17     Serbs have, which says that a farmer will give a son to the --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the proverb.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   The proverb that exists in our people says that a poorer farmer

22     gives his son for war and a rich man gives an ox in order to get himself

23     out of it.  This has something to do with this categorisation.  Do you

24     agree that category 1 involved those who were actively involved in this

25     combat of the 30th of May?

Page 19852

 1        A.   No.  And I confirm that because I myself never took part in this

 2     fighting.  I never thought about going into fighting, and I never will.

 3             Judge Mehmedagic was accused of being a sniper, a man who was

 4     blind.

 5        Q.   In the document that you discussed, you said that category 1

 6     involved active combatants?

 7        A.   And I think that I added to that people from Prijedor with higher

 8     a degree of education.

 9        Q.   That is right sir.  That's what you added.  And you also

10     mentioned some category for cooling.  All these words, the cooling, the

11     execution, and the other things that you mentioned, are they contained in

12     that document or not?

13        A.   When did I add this, in my statement or in testimonies?

14        Q.   In testimonies.

15        A.   Some people were accused of being involved and taking part in the

16     fighting.  I'm not going to talk about this.  However, all the people

17     that I mentioned in category 1 included doctors, lawyers, teachers,

18     engineers, and all of them perished.  Only one doctor survived.

19        Q.   We'll come to that, sir.  You know nothing about this.  You have

20     never seen anything with your own eyes.  You saw the killing of

21     Cermanic [phoen] who was a sick man, but they didn't know this.  As for

22     the rest of it, you never saw anything.  Is that what you said?

23        A.   Yes.  But Esad Mehmedagic -- Esad Sadikovic, in fact, was exhumed

24     and he had a bullet in the back of his head.  I didn't see when many of

25     my friends were killed, but many of my friends were found in mass graves,

Page 19853

 1     which leads me to believe that they were executed.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Here you ask a compound question again.  The witness

 3     said yes, but we do not know which it was the answer to.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It refers to the fact that this

 5     witness has only indirect knowledge of only one person being killed and

 6     his name --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the name.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Question: Crnalic?  And the witness

 9     replied: Yes.

10             I am helping the interpreters.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Is that right, you said yes?

13        A.   Yes, yes, I did.

14        Q.   As for the others, you only concluded that based on some other

15     elements?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Since we heard testimony here relating to Crnalic's

18     murder, can you tell us what was it exactly that you saw?

19        A.   I was in the green house and I just heard gun-fire.  He said that

20     he was hot.  He was sitting on a bench, he jumped out, and eventually he

21     was shot at.  That's what I saw.  Only later somebody told me that that

22     man was Crnalic, because at that time I didn't know who he was.

23        Q.   You said he jumped through the window?

24        A.   Yes, through the window of the "White House."  And he came to the

25     front of the "White House," sat on a bench.

Page 19854

 1        Q.   Let's go back to this categorisation.  In this document that

 2     speaks about three categories of detainees, is there any mention of

 3     executions or cooling lists or does it say quite clearly that category 1

 4     involved combatants, the second those who were aiding and abetting, and

 5     the third category involves the financiers?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is document P2640.  P2640.

 8     Can we briefly look at the document.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Temporary collection point of persons captured in combat, and so

11     on and so forth.  I'm sorry, this doesn't seem to be the document about

12     the categories, but never mind.

13             Then on page 41 you said that there were no killings that were

14     committed overtly and that's the reason why you didn't see that.

15        A.   Yes, there were several of them.  I think that Rizo Hadzalic was

16     killed on the -- on the runway, on the "pista."  And they all saw

17     Rizo Hadzalic being killed.  At the moment, I cannot recall how many

18     people I saw, but I know for sure that these people never showed up again

19     and it was never heard from them.

20        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, if somebody is taken away, is it possible that

21     this person might have been released?  Or do you think that invariably

22     this person was killed?

23        A.   Particularly if a guard comes back with some of his clothes and

24     trainers, he must have been released.  This is my sarcastic remark.

25             They were taken to the mine pit.  They were never taken either to

Page 19855

 1     a road or to a station, and no vehicles entered the compound.

 2        Q.   But these are all just your conclusions?

 3        A.   No, I needn't need more than that.  Ten people that disappeared

 4     is quite enough.  And eventually they were discovered in mass graves.

 5     Therefore, those people were killed.  They were not taken anywhere else,

 6     to the airport or some other place.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, I'm asking you again:  Was that your conclusion or

 8     did you see it yourself?

 9        A.   No, I didn't.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have ten minutes.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You have confirmed that only on two occasions you were maltreated

13     and beaten; once you were beaten with a hard implement and the second

14     time you were slapped on the face.

15        A.   Yes, it's good that it was only twice.  I should have been beaten

16     more.

17        Q.   Please do not blame me for that.  I just wanted to make sure that

18     if I -- that I read it correctly that this happened on two occasions

19     only.

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   On page 21 of your statement, you said that already in May 5th,

22     6th, or 10th May one could feel that authorities of the autonomous region

23     of Krajina were in operation.

24        A.   Is that what I said, or did you read it from the transcript?

25        Q.   It says here in paragraph 16, page 21, Ms. Sutherland asked you

Page 19856

 1     this:

 2             [In English] "Does it say there that instructions and decisions

 3     are being forwarded from the top, and the functions of the government at

 4     the level of Krajina can now be felt?"

 5             [Interpretation] And you said yes, yes.

 6        A.   I think that she asked me about the documents.  These are not my

 7     words.  If we can locate this document, that's what I read from the

 8     document.  That's not what I said.

 9        Q.   But you identified the document that contains this statement.

10        A.   I read the document that reads this.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It's evident from the reading of the transcript.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So you were issued a pass.  And whenever it was necessary, you

15     were given an escort as well.  On page 22, you speak about the need for

16     that, for you to have free movement, and sometimes they will send a car

17     for you because there were drunken people around who could jeopardise

18     your security and safety; right?

19        A.   I received the pass because I demonstrated certain level of fear

20     at the secretariat, because I told them that I was well known in the town

21     and that I can't go around without being noticed.

22             And secondly, I asked for a driver to be given to me because even

23     with a pass people knew who I was.  I think that this pass actually was

24     rather worthless.  And it is true, I was given an escort.

25        Q.   And you did get the escort?

Page 19857

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Up until the time when Mr. Maric was interrogated, it seems that

 3     you were held in high regard by the Serbs.  You got a pass, you got an

 4     escort, you were invited to come back to work; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.  But I don't think that they held me in so much higher

 6     regard.  I was just a good worker.  You can see how highly they regarded

 7     me.

 8        Q.   You also said that you never saw dead bodies and that all the

 9     three commanders were dismissed at various times.  Just a moment.

10             On page 36 of your amalgamated statement where you describe the

11     beatings, you said that you never saw any shift commander being present

12     when this was happening; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Are you trying to say that those who committed this were hiding

15     this?

16        A.   No, because they had documents.  They would come into rooms with

17     those papers in their hands.  They would call out people's names and take

18     them out.  They never came and took anyone randomly out.  They would come

19     with a proper piece of paper.  They would read out their name.  So you

20     would get up and go out, maybe for the last time.  Maybe you would

21     survive for a few times more.  So they didn't do it on a whim.  They

22     definitely did it on somebody's order, because full names were written on

23     those pieces of paper.

24        Q.   Do you know who ordered this?

25        A.   I said somebody's order.  Probably after the investigators left,

Page 19858

 1     apparently only Ranko Mijic, the chief of the criminal investigation

 2     department, could have left this list with someone to execute it.

 3        Q.   But you are just guessing, Witness?

 4        A.   No, I'm not guessing.  Somebody must have ordered a piece of

 5     paper to be issued with a specific name on it.  So they were very

 6     particular about it.  It was not random.

 7        Q.   Were you beaten in the same way or were you beaten randomly?

 8        A.   I was beaten during interrogation.  I was beaten on SUP premises.

 9     So it just didn't happen like that.  Somebody ordered me to be beaten.  I

10     was 37 years of age when I lost my teeth, Mr. Karadzic, and that is

11     disability.

12        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, I'm asking you:  Did anyone came with your name,

13     did they call you -- out your name, or did it happen just like that?

14        A.   No, not my name.  But in 90 per cent of the cases, they had

15     specific names.

16        Q.   Who did these guards report directly to?

17        A.   I think that there was the usual hierarchy, which means that they

18     reported to the shift commander, the shift commander to the camp

19     commander, and the camp commander to the chief of SJB, Zeljko Drljaca,

20     Simo Mejakic [as interpreted], and the guards, and we were the end users.

21        Q.   You seem to make a distinction between the various shifts.  Would

22     this distinction be based on the shift leader or guards commander?

23        A.   Well, I wouldn't be able to tell who made the choice of the

24     various shifts.  Was it the commanders who were assigned these men?

25     Possibly.  The commanders somehow did make an influence on the way their

Page 19859

 1     subordinates would behave.

 2        Q.   But you do say that there was no beating as far as the commanders

 3     were concerned.

 4        A.   No.  At least not that I saw.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It's your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You spent a short period of time in Trnopolje and went home from

 9     there.  Was it difficult to get your name on the lists of those intended

10     to leave Prijedor?

11        A.   Well, yes.

12             But let me tell you that I left Trnopolje simply because Zeljko

13     Mejakic had me released.  He took me home and I spent the night at home

14     and then he took me back to his village, where I spent the period through

15     to the second half of September.  And I don't want to go into my

16     relationship with Zeljko Mejakic, I discussed it.

17        Q.   And then you took a number of steps to leave Prijedor; can you

18     tell us what it was?

19        A.   Well, I had a fake ID made for me, I sat on a bus with the Serbs

20     from Omarska, and I went to Backa Palanka.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if this was my last question,

23     then that's what it is.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Just very briefly, Your Honour.  Two questions.

Page 19860

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

 2        Q.   Mr. Mesanovic, earlier today, at page 39, Mr. Karadzic asked you,

 3     put this to you:

 4             "And then all the way through to the 22nd of May until the ambush

 5     at the Hambarine check-point, and the incident where two Serb reservists

 6     were killed, two seriously wounded, two lightly wounded, in that period

 7     there weren't significant events happening; is that right?"

 8             And you said:  "Yes."

 9             Were you agreeing with his assertion that there was an ambush at

10     the Hambarine check-point?

11        A.   What I know is what I told you, because it happened.  But this

12     was a story that I heard over the radio, Radio Prijedor, and what I heard

13     at the Secretariat for National Defence, that this was provoked by the

14     reservists who were intoxicated and were on a rampage, in fact.  And they

15     opened fire at the check-point.  Apparently guards were installed in all

16     the various villages, including this one, and that's how the shooting

17     came about.  But I think it was staged.  There were Croats there.  There

18     were Serbs.  But, of course, since it was they who produced the

19     report ...

20        Q.   And secondly, a couple of questions later, Mr. Karadzic said:

21             "Then we have the 30th of April.  Is it true that on the

22     30th of April the Green Berets, the Patriotic League, the various units

23     of Territorial Defence of various localities more or less under the

24     command of Ecimovic mount an attack on Prijedor from various directions?"

25             And then --

Page 19861

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 30th of May.  It's a mistake.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I can finish.

 5        Q.   Then you said:  "Not on the 30th of April."

 6             Mr. Karadzic then said:  "On the 30th of May?"

 7             And you said:  "Yes.  I was there and I felt it."

 8             Were you agreeing that on the 30th of May it was an attack by the

 9     Green Berets and the Patriotic League and various units of the TO, all

10     those three groups?

11        A.   The question was a compound one, so I answer the first part of

12     it.  The shooting took place on the 30th of May.  I said that I didn't

13     know who the parties involved were.  This was the only incident, if it

14     occurred at all.  There was nothing that followed.

15             But because the question was compound, I suppose I answered the

16     first part of the question, that it did indeed happen on the 30th of May.

17     I said that all the Muslim houses were destroyed, whereas not a single

18     Serb house was grazed by a bullet.  It was only Muslim houses that were

19     burned to the ground.  My uncle's house, which stood across from Radio

20     Prijedor, had been razed to the ground.

21             The answer to the questions raised what was that Radio Prijedor

22     had come under attack from house.  And I did go later to check the

23     condition of the Radio Prijedor building, while it was intact.  What I

24     said in that context was that everything was stage managed, because all

25     those who got killed in the attack on Prijedor were policemen from

Page 19862

 1     Bosanski Novi and not from Prijedor.

 2             What I heard from the Serbs were that these were, in fact,

 3     individuals who had been killed in the front line and from the Banja Luka

 4     refrigerator unit were transported to Prijedor, but this is a rather more

 5     complex story, as is everything that has to do with the events in

 6     Prijedor in 1992, because, as I said, not a single bullet was fired.  And

 7     if there was an attack mounted, then they would be the ones to know about

 8     it, since it was all the Muslim houses that perished in that attack.  All

 9     the mosques, all the Catholic churches.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,

11     Mr. Mesanovic.  I have no further questions.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have one question, please.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  In relation to what, Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness said that radio

16     Prijedor broadcast that they were intoxicated.  And this was a fact

17     established, that there were two Croats and four Serbs in the car and

18     that fire was opened on them.  Now, the second question is -- was, did

19     the Serbian army come under fire from homes?  It is not true that

20     Radio Prijedor broadcast that they were intoxicated.

21             In fact, that was supposed to be my question.

22                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Did Radio Prijedor make broadcast to the effect

24     that they were intoxicated, that they were drunk?

25        A.   Yes.  And, in fact, this was a broadcast that was not aired

Page 19863

 1     again.  And it was a story that came from one of the wounded who was in

 2     the Prijedor hospital.  And the whole thing came about quite accidently.

 3        Q.   Did -- was fire opened on the Serbian army from Serbian homes?

 4        A.   Well, I tell you --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  That's it.

 6             Ms. Sutherland, nothing else?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Mesanovic, that concludes your evidence.  Unless my

10     colleagues have a question for you, that concludes your evidence.  And on

11     behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for

12     your coming to The Hague again to give it.

13             Now you are free to go.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Given the time, we'll take a break for an hour now

18     and resume at ten past 1.00 and begin with the next witness.

19                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

24             JUDGE KWON:  If the witness could take the solemn declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 19864

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  KDZ017

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please take a seat and make yourself comfortable.

 5             Yes, Ms. Hildegard -- I'm sorry.  Uertz-Retzlaff.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I know that

 7     my name is not so easy.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, sir, can you hear me?

10        A.   Good afternoon.  Yes, I can.

11        Q.   Sir, during your testimony here you will be referred to with the

12     pseudonym KDZ017.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have Exhibit 19848 displayed

14     on the screen, but not broadcast, please.  And as it is coming up, it is

15     the pseudonym sheet used in th Krnojelac case for this witness.

16        Q.   Sir, the name listed as the first and the date next to it, is

17     that your name and date of birth?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admittance of

20     this exhibit.  It needs to be under seal.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be done.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And, Your Honour, we do not only need it for

23     the witness name but also as a reference document, because in the

24     Krnojelac testimony the witness makes reference to the numbers on this

25     sheet.

Page 19865

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness --

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry.  That will be Exhibit P3566 under seal.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, you testified before this Tribunal in the case

 7     against Milorad Krnojelac on the 12th and 13th of February, 2001; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review this testimony when you

11     prepared for your testimony in this case here?

12        A.   Yes, I have had that opportunity.  I've reviewed it all, and it's

13     all clear.

14        Q.   And can you affirm that the testimony correctly reflects the

15     evidence you provided in the -- to the Tribunal in the Krnojelac case?

16        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, would you provide that same evidence to the

18     Court if questioned on the same matters here today?

19        A.   Yes.  Quite certainly I would be able to say what I stated the

20     first time around.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

22     testimony as 65 ter 22062A for admittance under Rule 92 ter, and it needs

23     to be under seal.  And a public version is uploaded as 65 ter 22062B.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Both will be admitted.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the under seal version will be

Page 19866

 1     Exhibit P3567, and the public redacted version will be Exhibit P3568.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, with your permission, I would

 3     like to read now a brief summary of the witness evidence in the Krnojelac

 4     case.

 5             In April 1992, Witness KDZ017, left Foca and went with his family

 6     to Montenegro where he and many other refugees from Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina were arrested in May 1992 and transferred back to Foca.

 8             The witness was subsequently detained in the Foca KP Dom prison

 9     where he stayed with other non-Serb detainees under living conditions

10     characterised by hunger, coldness, unhygienic conditions, and abuse which

11     had short and long term effects on the detainee's physical and

12     psychological health.

13             The detainees were civilians, including old and sick people.  Due

14     to the lack of medical care and medicine, several detainees died in the

15     prison.

16             During his detention, the witness observed a pattern of

17     mistreatment.  Detainees were called from their rooms, taken to the

18     administrative building, interrogated, and beaten.

19             On four occasions in June 1992, each time several detainees were

20     taken from their cells and beaten in a specific room in the

21     administration building.  After the beatings, single shots were heard and

22     the sound of a truck.  The victims of these events were never seen again.

23             The witness himself was also beaten on several occasions.

24             The witness noticed the disappearance of detainees without any

25     trace when taken out in so-called "exchanges."

Page 19867

 1             The witness and many other detainees were subjected to forced

 2     labour, including work in the Miljevina mine.

 3             In October 1994, the witness and 61 other detainees were

 4     transferred to the Kula prison and subsequently exchanged in Sarajevo.

 5             Your Honour, this concludes the summary.

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, on page 2902 in your Krnojelac testimony, you

 7     mentioned that you saw the camp commander, Mr. Krnojelac, together with

 8     Velibor Ostojic and Vojo Maksimovic, in front of the Ribarski restaurant

 9     in the end of 1991, beginning 1992.

10             At that time, was there anything particular happening in that

11     restaurant?

12        A.   With the arrival of Velibor Ostojic and Vojislav Maksimovic --

13     well, let me tell you first that the SDS and its followers - I can't

14     claim that they were all members - regularly held meetings in that

15     restaurant, Ribarski.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And you also mentioned on page 2940 that you saw

17     Vojo Maksimovic, Velibor Ostojic, and Miro Stanic, and some other persons

18     in the vicinity of a coffee shop near your office in 1991.

19             Do you know what they were doing in Foca at that time and why

20     they were at this particular place?

21        A.   I think that there was an error in the statement, because it was

22     not a coffee shop.  It was a private flat.  The offices were close to

23     Miso Petkovic's flat.  And Miso Petkovic, Vojislav Maksimovic, and

24     Velibor Ostojic were good friends and had been socialising before.  I

25     think it was about 9.00, as I was about to have my breakfast, that I

Page 19868

 1     observed the street being cordoned off at both ends.  I recall having to

 2     take a different route to go to the shop.  So I saw Velibor Ostojic,

 3     Vojo Maksimovic, and Miso Petkovic together getting out of a car and

 4     entering the building where Miso Petkovic had his flat.

 5        Q.   Sir, was Velibor Ostojic in Foca during the attack in April 1992?

 6     And I think it's safer, Your Honour, to go into private session for the

 7     answers.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19869











11  Page 19869 redacted. Private session.















Page 19870

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of the

22     associated exhibits, with two exceptions.

23             The exhibits are set out in the table, in the 92 ter

24     notification, but the statement identified as number 08897 will not be

25     tendered, and the annotated floor-plan is already an exhibit.  It is

Page 19871

 1     P3352.  And the photos listed in that table are part of the big photo

 2     documentation with which is partly admitted under P3353, but I suggest to

 3     admit those as a new set under 65 ter number 11289B because they are

 4     completely different from the one admitted with the previous witness.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So I checked the 11289 and found out that it's a

 6     155-pages document, but you --

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But you produced six documents -- six photos in that

 9     separate number?

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  And we admitted the pseudonym sheet already.

12             And I take it there's no position from the Defence.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't object, yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll give that six photos a -- one number.

15     One number, which will be ...

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3569, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And that's it?

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Sir, your evidence in the previous trial has been admitted in its

21     entirety in lieu of your examination-in-chief, and you will be further

22     asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

23             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 19872

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   You stated that you learned all these things from Mr. Lojo.  Did

 4     you personally see anything of the events that you described today or was

 5     it all described to you by Mr. Lojo?

 6        A.   The meetings or, rather, the negotiations that were being held

 7     with regard to the evacuation of the civilians, the cease-fire and other

 8     things, are all the -- is all the information that I got from Mr. Lojo.

 9     But what I said a minute ago when I said I saw Velibor Ostojic,

10     Vojislav Maksimovic at the flat of Miso Petkovic, that's something that I

11     personally witnessed.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did Mr. Lojo tell you that only once, or did he

13     recount that on several separate occasions?

14        A.   Well, they held meetings every day, starting from the 8th until I

15     was in Foca, which is the 12th of April.  We were in regular contact.  I

16     believe that these negotiations were held on different dates and at

17     different times.  It didn't all happen at once.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'm waiting, and could you also please wait, until

19     the interpretation is finished, then you can start your answer and

20     vice-versa.  We both need to make pauses.

21             Where did you used to meet Mr. Lojo?

22        A.   We used to live in the same neighbourhood, 50 metres apart.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you visit each other in your flats?

24        A.   Yes, we met both in his flat and my flat.

25        Q.   Were the Serbs spying on you?  Did they notice that you were

Page 19873

 1     holding meetings with him?

 2        A.   Not that I was able to notice.  But I assume that was the case,

 3     although we had been friends for 20 years.  I was definitely not under

 4     suspicion because I was not politically active, but I'm sure that they

 5     were monitoring the situation.

 6        Q.   Today, on page 73 of the transcript, you said that Maksimovic,

 7     Ostojic - and who was the third man? - in whose flat they were had been

 8     friends from before; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.  I know that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You saw them alighting from a car.  Did they just

11     come out openly, or were they hiding?

12        A.   There was no need for them to hide.  This was before the war.

13     But the euphoria of the war was already in the air, and they were often

14     together.  That moment that I described, I saw them coming out of the

15     car, but I just couldn't understand why guards or obstacles were needed

16     or roadblocks were needed at both ends of the street where Mr. Petkovic's

17     apartment building was.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So you don't think that there was anything wrong with

19     them meeting, being all friends, but you think and you think it's not a

20     good thing that such a high level of security was provided?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know what kind of public offices did Mr. Maksimovic and

23     Mr. Ostojic hold?

24        A.   I know that Mr. Ostojic was the minister of information.  As for

25     Vojislav Maksimovic, I don't know.  He used to work as a teacher at the

Page 19874

 1     Official Gazette.  That's all I know.

 2        Q.   If I tell you that Mr. Ostojic was beaten by the Muslims at

 3     Ilidza and he ended up in hospital and then the police ordered an escort

 4     to be provided for him, do you know anything about this?

 5        A.   I heard about this incident, but I don't think that that happened

 6     during the war.  I think it happened before the war.

 7        Q.   Yes.  He was beaten up before the war, he was given escort before

 8     the war, and you saw him before the war, in the incident that you

 9     described?

10        A.   Yes, that's right, before the war.  As for how he was beaten up,

11     there were various different versions of the incident.  I don't think

12     that that was provoked by an ethnic revenge or something like that.  I

13     think that there was some private and personal reasons underlying this

14     attack.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, this is a cynical remark concerning this incident.

16     What leads you to believe that?  Because this happened 70 kilometres from

17     Foca, because that's the distance between Foca and Sarajevo.

18        A.   70 kilometres.

19        Q.   Based on what do you think that something else was the reason?

20        A.   Because I was following the reports in the media.  There were

21     various reports appearing there, so I was never in a position to know the

22     true information.

23        Q.   If I tell you that Professor Vojislav Maksimovic, an academician,

24     was at the time a deputy in the Joint Assembly and the president of the

25     caucus of Serbian deputies, did you know any of that?

Page 19875

 1        A.   No, I didn't, although I knew Maksimovic before the war for some

 2     20 or 25 years.  However, I was simply not interested in politics.  I

 3     didn't follow any meetings of either political party.  And I can tell you

 4     right away that as far as that question is concerned, I can't tell you

 5     anything.

 6        Q.   Nevertheless, you noticed old friends getting together, just like

 7     you got together with Lojo, only the two that you mentioned were in high

 8     government position and they had their security details with them who

 9     blocked the street.  Did we clarify this matter now?

10        A.   If I tell you that Vojislav Maksimovic was an extremely good

11     friend with my father, before the war in 1991, somewhere around new year,

12     Vojislav Maksimovic severed all friendly relations with my father.

13     Before that, they would speak every day on the phone.  And they spent

14     every weekend together without fail.  And this is a kind of indication in

15     my mind that they actually discarded their old friends and friendships.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was that the only friendship that broke down in

17     Bosnia after the cessation of Bosnia from Yugoslavia was made public, or

18     was that a frequent occurrence?

19        A.   Yes.  But that was one of the most striking examples.  I know

20     other Serb friends who up until the very beginning of the war were at

21     least kind and polite, would stop me on the street and chat with me.  And

22     I didn't see any major disruptions in friendships.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Since Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff asked you whether at that

24     time they were in Foca and she ascribed certain significance to that, let

25     us clarify this for the Chamber.  Is it correct that both of them are the

Page 19876

 1     natives of Foca and at that time they had their families living in Foca

 2     and that they had their domicile addresses there?

 3        A.   Yes, it is true that both of them are from Foca.  But if you take

 4     Velibor Ostojic, whom I saw twice in a hotel during a business meeting, I

 5     could not exactly notice if he was very much fond of his native town and

 6     his family.

 7        Q.   Do you know what happened on the evening of the 4th of April in

 8     Sarajevo, and do you know that neither of them dared stay in the town,

 9     but had to leave and to finally arrive in their native town of Foca?

10        A.   I don't know what happened in April.

11        Q.   I will tell you what happened.  The Green Berets, the gun-fire,

12     the terror, the horrible events, all of this happened in Sarajevo on the

13     night between the 4th and the 5th.  Did you hear about that?

14        A.   No, I didn't.

15        Q.   Is this Zdravko Elez still alive?

16        A.   I suppose so.  He was a young person, so I surmise that he is

17     alive.

18        Q.   And you have no objection to our attempt to try and verify your

19     story relating to this person?

20        A.   No, I have no objection whatsoever, provided he tells the truth.

21        Q.   Today, on page 74 of the transcript, you said that the real war

22     broke out in Foca on the 8th of April; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, on the 8th of April.  Because on the 6th of April I was

24     forced, because I saw what was afoot, I was forced to seek shelter with

25     my family on the nearby hill, because on the 8th of April the real war

Page 19877

 1     broke out.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Between whom?

 3        A.   Between the Serbs and the Muslims.  But first of all, Foca was

 4     surrounded.  There was heavy artillery.  There were trenches from all

 5     sides.  Only one part on the left-hand side of the Drina where there was

 6     a Muslim quarter, I believe that was the only part that was defended by

 7     the Muslims.  Everything else was under the Serb control.

 8        Q.   We are going to discuss the disposition and the might of all the

 9     sides involved.  But I would like to know, is it possible for a war to be

10     waged by only one side, or does it take two to wage a war?

11        A.   Of course it takes two to wage a war, but this war was caused by

12     the other side.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at document 1D4420.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   -- you said that Serbs had their own taverns that they

17     frequented.  Was that the same situation with the Muslims?

18        A.   There was total separation before the war.  Everybody had their

19     own cafes in their respective parts of the town.

20        Q.   Well, you just said something that was completely understandable.

21     So these two ethnic communities drifted apart and they became homogenized

22     and there was less intermingling; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  This needs to -- I hope this is not

25     broadcast.

Page 19878

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I checked it, it wasn't broadcast.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Okay, good.  Because the name is seen.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You spoke about that on page 2, but you only refer to the Serbs.

 5     Now you told us that that was the situation on both sides.  Is it true

 6     that Muslims used to gather together at Zios [phoen] cafe?

 7        A.   Zios?  No, I'm not familiar with that.  I don't know.

 8        Q.   Was there such a cafe, Zios?

 9        A.   Yes, there was, but I very much doubt that they could get

10     together there, because part of the bus station where this cafe was

11     located, that was the main and the focal point for the Serbs who met

12     there.  There were two Serbian restaurants, actually, where they

13     assembled, and I really very much doubt that anyone would have courage to

14     meet there.

15        Q.   Where did the Muslims meet?

16        A.   In Donje Polje because that was a majority populated

17     neighbourhood, Muslim majority populated neighbourhood.

18        Q.   And was it, earlier, just a normal thing that everybody would

19     build apartments in their own neighbourhood?

20        A.   No, apartments were built throughout the whole town.  It wasn't a

21     question of whether a Serb or a Muslim lived in any particular part of

22     town, in a street, or a building.

23        Q.   But you said that Donje Polje was Muslim majority.  Is it correct

24     that there were parts of the Foca town and the Foca municipality which

25     were predominantly, if not purely, Serb, or predominantly or purely

Page 19879

 1     Muslim?

 2        A.   Well, it's my assumption that the Muslims withdrew to Donje Polje

 3     because that was the only way out for them towards their own people.  I

 4     don't know if the lines were there or not.  But anyway, it was towards

 5     the Ustikolina area.  That was the only way out, for fighters and

 6     civilians to be able to withdraw to that area.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We will come to that.  Do you know that there were

 8     agreements and talks about forming two municipalities whereby the Serbs

 9     and Muslims would also have a part of the town itself as well as their

10     villages with administrative links to their own municipality?

11        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.  I don't know that.

12        Q.   The place where you worked, you never heard that there were

13     negotiations about the forming of two municipalities?

14        A.   No.  No, I did not.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who Alija Siljak is?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber who that is?

18        A.   Alija Siljak is, well, a no-good layabout.  An oaf.  Maybe that's

19     too rough.  But anyway, he was prone to drinking, he was homeless.  I

20     don't know what else I could say.  That's how I know him, at least.

21        Q.   And do you know what he was doing and is he of interest to you

22     from the security point of view?  Do you know what he was involved with?

23        A.   All I know is that Alija Siljak was briefly employed at

24     Focatrans.  And because of his irresponsible attitude and excessive

25     consumption of alcohol, he lost that job.  As for his activities during

Page 19880

 1     the war, all I know is that he went to Croatia.

 2        Q.   And do you know that from Croatia he handled the formation and

 3     the training of HOS and the SDA units in Foca?

 4        A.   I did hear that information, but I cannot believe.  I don't know

 5     that man.  I don't think that he was any kind of fighter.  He was a

 6     horrible man.  I don't think that he had any kind of courage to do

 7     anything.  I did hear about the HOS during the war while I was still in

 8     Foca.  HOS is coming from Gorazde, it reached Ustikolina, and so on and

 9     so forth.  However, when I left the camp, I know 100 per cent that

10     Alija Siljak was in Croatia.  He was a member of the HOS; I do know that.

11     But he was not any kind of leader, nor did he have any sort of courage

12     for that sort of thing.  Perhaps just in words, but nothing more than

13     that.

14        Q.   All right.  But do you agree that such brave people frequently

15     wage war using others as proxies, and they sit in the capitals and manage

16     it all?

17        A.   Yes, that's true.  That's what the war did show.

18        Q.   So that we can help the Trial Chamber to understand:  Do we agree

19     that the HOS is the most extreme armed group among the Croats, the

20     Croatian Armed Forces, they were formed by the Croatian Party of Rights,

21     which an successor of the Ustasha movement, and that they were much more

22     extremist than the HVO?

23        A.   I cannot confirm that because I don't know.  I was not ever in

24     danger from them.

25        Q.   Do you know -- did you know Suad Celik?

Page 19881

 1        A.   I didn't know Suad Celik.  I didn't know him.

 2        Q.   Is it Sead Celik, perhaps?

 3        A.   No, I didn't know Sead Celik either.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who Halid Cengic was?

 5        A.   Halid Cengic was working in the depot of the Zelengora company.

 6        Q.   Can we agree that his son, Hasan Cengic, was a priest and a

 7     high-level functionary of the SDA?

 8        A.   Yes, I do know that.

 9        Q.   And do you agree that Halid Cengic, as soon as the war broke out,

10     became the main logistics person of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

11     Visoko?

12        A.   I did hear that, although I'm not really going to dwell on

13     information like that, unless I checked it.  That and other information.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that Halid Cengic, during the socialist

15     Yugoslavia period too, in August 1990 formed the first paramilitary

16     formation in Bosnia in Ustikolina?

17        A.   This is the first time that I'm hearing of that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that in September 1990, before the

19     elections, a major crisis broke out about Focatrans and that the Serbs

20     lost their rights and work in Focatrans?

21        A.   I do know about the crisis in Focatrans.  As for the Serbs losing

22     their posts and rights, I don't know even though the Serbs caused the

23     rebellion in that work and enterprise.

24        Q.   Is that -- did they cause that rebellion because they had it good

25     or because they were bereft of rights?

Page 19882

 1        A.   Well, I don't think that the Serbs or the Muslims were

 2     particularly bereft of rights.  It was the same for everything.  But the

 3     initiative to form two separate enterprises was launched by the Serbian

 4     workers and, of course, later there was a broader conflicts that broke

 5     out.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  For the Trial Chamber to understand, it is correct

 7     that Focatrans was a socially owned enterprise and belonged to the

 8     workers in the self-management system?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And do you confirm or do you deny or do you not know

11     that the Muslim side in Foca began to prepare for the war against the

12     Serbs very early on?

13        A.   I don't think that it did.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

15     sentence.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, sir, could you repeat your answer

17     kindly.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so, no.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D4203 now, please,

20     in e-court.  That can be broadcast.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is, do we agree, on the 13th of February, 1992, from the

23     military intelligence service, and it's sending its report and it says

24     "establishment of the HOS training centre in the area of Foca BiH"; is

25     that right?

Page 19883

 1        A.   I'm not familiar with this.

 2        Q.   All right.  But does it not say that?  Is that the document?

 3        A.   Yes, that's what it says, report on the establishment of HOS

 4     training centre in the area of B&H, and it was signed by Enver Pendek.

 5        Q.   Did you know Enver Pendek?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak into

 7     the microphone.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, sir.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do agree with this information.

10     I don't confirm the contents, I'm not familiar with the document.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 now, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry, but did you say you do agree with this

13     information or you don't agree with this?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as text, I agree with the

15     information that is posted on the monitor.  With the report.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we look at page 3

17     now, paragraph 2.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And can you please look at this paragraph 2, which talks about

20     Alija Siljak and Suad or Senad Celik.  Did you know Senad Celik?

21        A.   I didn't know Suad or Senad Celik.  Senaid Celik is the only one

22     that I knew.

23        Q.   Ah-ha.  Perhaps that's the one.

24        A.   No, no, not -- that one was already in Germany before the war,

25     because that's a classmate of mine.

Page 19884

 1        Q.   Can you look at the second paragraph so that we can see that

 2     meeting, that he received information or a report which indicates that he

 3     has been sent to Foca, to the HOS training centre, headed by

 4     Alija Siljak.  He was told to report to the cafe [indiscernible] in Foca,

 5     where he would ask for Suad or Senad Celik who would take him to the

 6     training centre some 20 kilometres from Foca in the direction of

 7     Sepan Polje, located in the deserted facilities of the forest workers."

 8             Did you know that people were being trained in a number of places

 9     in hills around Foca and that shots could be heard from there?

10        A.   I didn't know that.  But I assume that all of this information is

11     actually incorrect.

12        Q.   And do we agree that this was written by a lieutenant-colonel of

13     the JNA?  Can you look at the bottom.

14        A.   Yes, it does say that.  But I can get you countless papers like

15     this.

16        Q.   The 13th of February, Mr. Witness, why would anybody be lying

17     when this is a responsible thing?  This is somebody sending to their

18     superior commands information that reached him.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat his

20     answer.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, could you kindly repeat your answer.  Or start

22     all over again.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I just said about this paper

24     it doesn't mean anything to me.  It's possible to make papers like this,

25     countless of them.

Page 19885

 1             As for Alija Siljak, this is a 92, the 31st of March, I think

 2     that at the time that person was in the worst state of health ever.  He

 3     was living from social assistance.  He was an alcoholic.  I assume, even

 4     though I didn't see that, that he was also consuming drugs.  And that is

 5     why this paper, for me, more or less doesn't mean a thing.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the first page of

 7     the document, please, in Serbian.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Witness, sir, can you see the stamp of the 4th Corps?  And it

10     says "military secret, strictly confidential."  Are you trying to say

11     that this is some kind of propaganda which is a military secret and is

12     not for the eyes of the public?

13        A.   Well, I'm not disputing the authenticity of the stamp or the

14     document.  I'm just telling you about the situation that I'm familiar

15     with, when we are talking about Alija Siljak and this period where he was

16     supposed to have been giving messages where to meet and so on.  For sure

17     he was not fit for something like that at that time because Alija Siljak

18     was unemployed.  He would come to see me every day, every other day,

19     either to give him a cigarette or to give him a mark or two, something

20     like that.  I am not justifying nor do I know what else he did.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any basis to admit this through this

23     witness, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It contradicts what the witness is

25     saying.  I think that is grounds enough.

Page 19886

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Which part do you refer to of his evidence?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [No Interpretation]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The fact that witness denies some part of the

 4     document does not form a basis to admit that document.

 5             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 7             Then I would like to show another document, 1D4 -- 04202.  Even

 8     though this one is not tendered or that one would not be tendered, what

 9     is contradictory is that the witness does not believe that the Muslims in

10     Foca before the war were preparing for the war.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not.  Definitely.  I know

12     that.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You are saying that they were definitely not preparing for war?

15        A.   They had nothing to prepare with.  With what?  They didn't have

16     weapons.  They didn't have a situation in which the former JNA could help

17     them.  I don't see any idea, any reason for the idea that they were

18     preparing for war.

19        Q.   Thank you.  All right, can you look at this.  This is from the

20     1st of December, 1991, also from the military intelligence service.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we look at page 3.

22             Can we just look at page 2 for a minute, the bottom of page 2,

23     and then it continues on to page 3.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you look at the last paragraph on page 2.  It talks about the

Page 19887

 1     character of the meetings.  There are names of specific people there.  It

 2     states:  "The nature of these meetings is still at the level of initial

 3     organization, establishment, and conceptual consolidation," and then it

 4     goes on to describe, saying that he toured over the past few days

 5     villages around Sandzak, his place of birth, Prijepolje, Rudo, Foca,

 6     Visegrad, and other villages --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 in the Serbian,

 8     please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   -- and other villages in the Drina Valley.  He mentioned that he

11     was very satisfied with the situation observed and that these regions had

12     made a lot of progress in the militarisation in relation to Sarajevo.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the interpreters --

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   According to Emir, the best organized, trained, and equipped unit

16     is the one in Foca numbering around 2,000 members?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   2,000 members of the secret army were there in Foca, and you are

20     claiming that there was none of that.

21        A.   Yes, I am stating that there was none of that.  I don't know what

22     secret army this was.  Can you please tell me what secret army this was?

23     Other than that, I think all of these things that you are asking me

24     actually should have nothing to do with my testimony.  All I'm interested

25     in are the events in the KP Dom and what happened to me in the KP Dom.

Page 19888

 1     All of these things that you are asking me about are things that I have

 2     nothing -- I have no knowledge about.  I can talk about unchecked

 3     information, but I don't want to use such information.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But you said -- you talked about how the war began,

 5     when the war began, and now I have to create a picture with the

 6     Trial Chamber about what was going on there.  Is that right?  And,

 7     please, I would like you to understand me.  I'm not attacking you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Even if the witness may have touched upon how the

 9     war broke out, it's not relevant at all.  Please bear that in mind.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, are you a reserve officer?

12        A.   I was.

13        Q.   Which rank did you have?

14   (redacted)

15        Q.   And where did you work?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm sorry, can we move into

17     closed session.  Yes.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This has nothing to do --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please pause there.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we go into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19889

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

Page 19890

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you know that in the pre-war period the Serbs in Foca were

 4     mistreated, even Serbian children were killed by adult Muslim extremists?

 5     Did you know that the Serbs sought shelter and tried to get out of harms

 6     way even in the basements of their Muslim neighbours?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You say that Foca came under attack -- or, actually,

 9     that the war broke out on the 8th of April.  Between the 8th of April and

10     the 16th of April, under whose control was Donje Polje?  To be more

11     precise, from Ivan Goran Kovacic Street all the way to the KP Dom.

12        A.   In the early days of the war, Donje Polje was under the control

13     of the Muslims.  As for that period up until the 16th of April, I have

14     serious doubts about that.  It was on the 12th of April that Foca fell.

15        Q.   Did you know Senad Sahirbahic [as interpreted], aka Saja?

16        A.   I did.

17        Q.   Was he in command of armed Muslim formations in Donje Polje?

18        A.   I don't know about that, that Senad Sahinpasic should be a

19     commander.  He was not a soldier.  I don't know.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would now like to call up

22     1D04227, but it shouldn't be broadcast.  It's a statement by another

23     individual.

24             Am I right in saying that this shouldn't be broadcast?

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Correct.  But I cannot really say the reason

Page 19891

 1     in the presence of the witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to indicate who

 3     was in command of Donje Polje.  It was a matter of common knowledge.

 4             Can we have page 3, paragraph 4, and then we'll see who the

 5     commander of Donje Polje was.  There we have it, page 3, paragraph 4.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you see the name there?  On this occasion it was requested

 8     that Muhamed Cengic should ask Sahinpasic that Donje Polje is the only

 9     area that was under the control of the TO and reserve police forces of

10     Foca and that it should surrender, that they should surrender.

11             So do you agree with me that if Sahinpasic was to be asked to

12     surrender an area, then he must have been in command of it.

13        A.   Well, he was the president of the SDA.  And I am not familiar

14     with either his activities or the activities of the SDA.  I resided in a

15     different part of town, some 150 metres away from the centre.  What was

16     taking place in Donje Polje and who was in command there is something I

17     don't know.

18             The name of Sahinpasic was mentioned.  The Serbian population did

19     speak about Saja being in command.  And I was in contact with certain

20     Serbian civilians in a basement somewhere where they -- his name did crop

21     up, but I can't confirm that information.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that as the fighting broke out in town

23     the first houses to burn were those belonging to the more prominent Serbs

24     and among them the house of Milorad Krnojelac?

25        A.   I know that the house was set on fire.  I don't know if it was

Page 19892

 1     among the first ones to burn.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3        A.   It was Gornje Polje and the Muslim houses that started to burn

 4     first, and I was able to see that from the place where I resided.  I know

 5     that for a fact.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  What were the insignia worn by the forces you

 7     observed during the fighting?

 8        A.   You mean the Serb forces?

 9        Q.   Both.

10        A.   Well, I wasn't able to see the other ones.  As I said, I left

11     Foca on the 12th and I did not have occasion to cross over to the other

12     side.  And I wasn't able to because I simply didn't have the opportunity

13     of seeing what the insignia worn by the other side was.  I was able to

14     see the Serbian forces.  I saw the cockades that they had, and some of

15     them even had the five pointed stars of the JNA.

16        Q.   So throughout that time you were in that area of Foca that was

17     under the control of the Serb forces; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Were you familiar with the names of any of these formations, as

20     you say they had these caps with eagles?

21        A.   Well, I heard of the White Eagles, I heard of Tigers, and

22     whatnot.  I can't recall their names now.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You left Foca on the 12th of April; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You were given a lift by an acquaintance of yours, a Serb

Page 19893

 1     neighbour - we will not mention his name - and you were able to go past

 2     all the various check-points smoothly, save for the last check-point on

 3     the Bosnian side; is that right?

 4        A.   In Pozine [phoen], practically.

 5        Q.   In other words, you were already in Montenegro when you were

 6     pulled over and where there was a risk that you would be taken off the

 7     vehicle?

 8        A.   Yes, Sepan Polje, and that's on the border between Montenegro and

 9     Bosnia, i.e., Foca.

10        Q.   Is it fair to say that at the time when you left, and for some

11     time earlier, large numbers of Muslims and Serbs left Foca to the extent

12     allowed by the authorities?

13        A.   As I came to the first town in Montenegro, Pozine, it is true

14     that I came across quite a few Serbs.

15        Q.   The witness said Serbs from Foca?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Not "quite a few"; you said you met many of them, didn't you?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Likewise, when you reached the coastal towns, you

20     were not among the first refugees to have come from Foca, were you?

21        A.   Well, in the area of Herceg Novi I believe I was, in fact, among

22     the first Muslims.

23        Q.   But there were quite a few.  There were many Serbs from Foca who

24     had already fled?

25        A.   They hadn't fled.  The areas -- or, rather, the rooms where I

Page 19894

 1     stayed, we were in the so-called collective accommodation for

 2     construction workers belonging to a Foca construction company, that's

 3     where I found some of them.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that at this first point where you were

 5     stopped in Montenegro you were in fact stopped by a paramilitary group.

 6     Can you tell us who they were?

 7        A.   Believe me when I tell you that I have no idea who they were.

 8     They wore black sort of uniform with Chetnik insignia.  We were, in

 9     essence, thrown out of our vehicle by a JNA officer.  He wore a JNA

10     uniform and I recognized the JNA insignia.

11        Q.   Thank you.  But this friends of yours from Foca was quite

12     persistent.  He was even in tears.  It was a very distressing seen.  And

13     he managed to convince them to allow you to continue on your journey; is

14     that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   There is one issue which perplexes me.  After a while you were

17     sent back to Bosnia, were you not?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   How many of you were sent back?

20        A.   Twenty-one in my group.

21        Q.   There were more groups, were there not?

22        A.   Yes, before mine and after mine.  One of the larger groups was

23     mine.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that they sent back Serbs regardless of

25     people's ethnicity and religious affiliation?

Page 19895

 1        A.   I didn't know that.  I know that there was a group of Serbs, 25

 2     of them, on my bus as we were sent back to Foca, and they were people who

 3     had deserted, that they had fled from the battle-field.

 4        Q.   And the Montenegrin authorities sent them back, did they not?

 5        A.   Well, I wouldn't be able to say that it was the Montenegrin

 6     authorities who did that.  Representatives of the Serbian people from

 7     Foca came over, specifically, in my case, an individual came who

 8     introduced himself as a senior crime police officer.  He was the one who

 9     arrested my group and ordered that we be transported to Foca.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have 1D4429 now.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I'll ask you to identify the various individuals, among those who

13     were sent back, for Their Honours.  Do you agree that under 1, 2, and 3

14     there are three Muslims, all three have the same family name, Rikalo; and

15     then further down, Zivojin Nikolic, wouldn't that be a Serb?

16        A.   Well, judging by his name, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Have a look.  Do you agree that through to number 17 all of them

21     are Serbs?

22        A.   Yes.  But it's got nothing to do with either me or my group.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I merely want to establish what --

24        A.   Yes, they were sent back because they were to be redeployed to

25     the battle-field; whereas we were sent back in order to fill up the

Page 19896

 1     numbers of people who were held in the camps, or maybe to track down all

 2     the Muslims who had crossed over to Montenegro in order to avoid having

 3     them get organized, armed, and go back to Foca.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Then we have 17 Muslims, 16 Serbs.  Further down in

 5     the document.  And then on page 6 half of them are Serbs, half of them

 6     are Muslims.  So this is beyond dispute, is it?

 7        A.   Well, yes, I did say that the -- half of the people on my bus

 8     were Serbs and the other half were Muslims.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19897

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, these

10     are the people who had been detained at the request of Foca SUP in the

11     period between 22nd and 26th of May.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   When was your group transferred?

14        A.   My group could only be there on the 25th of May.

15             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber does not find it relevant at the moment.

16     We'll not admit this.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The only important

18     thing for me is whether everybody was sent back.  That was the main

19     issue.  However, we are going to put it to another witness.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Can we upload the page without

21     broadcasting.  Can you see page 4?  Could you tell whether you can see

22     your name there?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not the group that was

24     brought alongside me at all.  This is a completely different group.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19898

 1        Q.   Do you agree that there are three Serbs here, 4, 5, and 6?

 2        A.   Yes, I agree.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  How about the previous page?  Yes, on the top.

 4     Number 21?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I missed that.  I apologise.

 7     All credit to you, Excellencies.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you are not opposed to admitting this,

 9     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, under seal?

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour, but I would --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we mark it for identification.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  And I think we should have the full

13     document - I don't know why we have not the first page and not the end -

14     so that we can clearly see what it is all about.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Can you help us, Mr. Karadzic, in this regard?  Why

16     it's part of -- why we do not have the whole document?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we normally say, This is what

18     you get.  What you see is what you get.  And this is what we got from the

19     Prosecution.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll mark it for identification under

21     seal.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1746, under seal, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Our proverb was not interpreted

24     correctly: [In English] I bought it as I sell it.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19899

 1        Q.   Very well.  You were imprisoned in the KP Dom; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And at the penal and correctional facility you were able more to

 4     hear certain things rather than see?

 5        A.   I was able to see things and I was able to hear things as well.

 6        Q.   Did you find out the number of the inmates, and how?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.  And that happened at the very beginning of my time

 8     there.  I used to count the prisoners at the time when they were going to

 9     have meals.  And initially there were 570 of them.

10        Q.   However, in your statement given to the Sarajevo CSB, I think it

11     was in mid-1994, you said that you learned that number, that you didn't

12     count them yourself.

13        A.   I don't remember saying that.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please call up 65 ter 07051

15     without it being broadcast.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, wouldn't it be quite difficult to count all the

18     570 people?

19        A.   Not at all, if you have each room, each dormitory, going to

20     meals.

21        Q.   Is this your statement?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Is this the first statement that you gave at all?

24        A.   I think so.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 19900

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 2, paragraph 2.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   It says here:  "In the morning I found out that there were

 4     547 detainees ..."

 5        A.   Yes, I found out.  But after I counted them myself, I reached the

 6     figure that I told you.

 7        Q.   But you did the counting after this in order to check this

 8     figure?

 9        A.   I counted them every single day.  And I was not alone in that.

10     There were a couple of more people doing that.

11        Q.   Now, you say that some people were taken away; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   How many people were taken away?

14        A.   From the KP Dom?

15        Q.   You are talking about a specific incident.

16        A.   Ah, you mean taken out.  36 people.

17        Q.   But you named 9 prisoners who were possibly taken to the main

18     building for interrogation.

19        A.   I was talking about four groups with nine detainees each, and I

20     described each individual group separately.  But each group always had

21     nine detainees.

22        Q.   Now, let us see what you say about this, for example, on page 8

23     of your statement 1D4420.  You state the names of nine detainees.  And

24     let us look, for example, at paragraph 3 here.  Tell us which names you

25     have quoted here - Veiz, Munib; Koluglija, Mustafa [phoen] - can you see

Page 19901

 1     that?

 2        A.   [No interpretation]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters didn't here the answer.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   How many names did you list in your first statement?

 6        A.   Let me tell you.  I gave this first statement without any

 7     additions; I just signed it.  The man who took the statement from me was

 8     a Serb, and all I remember is the first part, whereas the rest of it was

 9     virtually copied from other detainees.  And this man's name was

10     Davidovic, the one who questioned me.  I have my personal notes because I

11     have been claiming from day one, and I have proof of that, that this is

12     the case.

13        Q.   Can we have these notes of yours?

14        A.   Why not?

15        Q.   Are you listing here seven people, and then further down you said

16     that there were two, men members of the White Eagles, who were not known

17     to you; is that correct?  You never mentioned the first three men to

18     The Hague investigators?

19        A.   Which three men?

20        Q.   Veiz, Munib; Bico, Salem; and Koluglija, Mustafa.  You didn't

21     mention them in the statement given to the investigators.  Are they still

22     alive?

23        A.   Veiz Munib, first group; Bico, Salem, third group; and everything

24     else that I stated in the statement still remains as such because I never

25     changed anything that I told originally to the Prosecution.

Page 19902

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Maybe I can be of assistance.  The witness

 4     mentioned notes, and he actually has just looked at his notes.  This is

 5     the document that we provided to the Defence yesterday, and we have

 6     uploaded it under 65 ter 23481.  So Mr. Karadzic should have these notes.

 7     And there, on the fourth page, are actually groups listed with the names

 8     of people.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, probably I received this late

10     last night and I didn't have time to go through it.  And also, none of my

11     associates was able to see this.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now, you say that people were taken away, shots were heard, and

14     you concluded that those people were killed.

15        A.   After so many beatings in the room nearby and eventually you hear

16     gun-shots, it is only natural to conclude that they were killed.

17        Q.   Are you trying to say there was no other shooting?

18        A.   There was not so much shooting on the 25th of May, and

19     particularly in the period in June when this incident happened.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I wanted to let you know that we should adjourn for

21     the day at ten to, just for planning purpose.  But I wonder whether you

22     can finish before then or not.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it will be difficult before

24     that time, but I'll do my best to finish it by that time.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19903

 1        Q.   During the proofing, did the Prosecution suggest to you or did

 2     they tell you what other witnesses spoke about regarding specific

 3     circumstances?

 4        A.   No, they didn't.

 5        Q.   In your opinion, judging by the gun-shots, where were those five

 6     people killed?  In front of the prison, in the hall, in one of the rooms?

 7        A.   Outside the KP Dom building.  That's where the gun-shots were

 8     heard from.  And I suppose that they were killed, and later on it was

 9     proven.  They were taken to the Drina riverbank, and all these things

10     would usually happen in the evening.

11             And when the first group was taken, we heard the offloading of

12     something from a truck, which means that they were buried there.

13     Ramo Odjendjosic [phoen], one of the Carkusic [phoen] people, was found

14     there.  A total of six bodies were found there.

15        Q.   In your statement, 1D4420, on page 8, you say that --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the numbers.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   -- where you say that when the statement was taken from you by

19     The Hague --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 4, paragraph 3.  Can we have

21     it in Serbian, please, so that I can identify it.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   "We were told that we would be giving statements at the police

24     station."

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  No, just a moment.

Page 19904

 1      4.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   We're just trying to find it.  What you're trying to say is that

 4     you heard the truck unloading something.  How far is that bank where the

 5     unloading was being done?

 6        A.   Some 15 to 20 metres from the KP Dom.

 7        Q.   But you couldn't see what was being unloaded; is that right?

 8        A.   One could hear it.

 9        Q.   And then by the sound you identified what you heard; is that

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And what was it that was being unloaded in your opinion, judging

13     by the sound?

14        A.   Let me clarify the situation.  After the beatings and the fire,

15     the shots, from the first to the fourth group, our detainee Sefko Kubac

16     was working in front of the KP Dom in the metals plant.  He was on duty

17     all night in order to maintain the generator.  What I'm talking about,

18     what I'm saying, is all correct and true.  And then he in turn explained

19     it all to us in a little bit more detail and a bit more precisely,

20     because he saw all of it.  He saw what was happening, how they were

21     putting people in the caddy, transferring them to the banks of the Drina,

22     trucks arriving from the mosque.  Stones were being unloaded and put on

23     the corpses.  He wanted to bring the blanket to show how all of that was,

24     because he was working to maintain the caddy, but the man died.

25        Q.   So we can not confirm this because the person died?

Page 19905

 1        A.   Well, this is a true story.  I don't know if the Prosecution has

 2     witnesses who were in the dorm.  I don't know the witnesses.  I don't

 3     have a list of those who are going to testify.  But three to four

 4     witnesses would have been able to confirm that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, because of the tape we need to rise

 6     for today.  We'll continue tomorrow morning, 9.00.  And you'll have about

 7     10 to 15 minutes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of

12                           October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.