111006IT

Page 20006

1 Thursday, 6 October 2011

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.

7 Good morning, Mr. Egrlic. How are you today?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Thank you, I'm fine.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11 Good morning, everyone.

12 WITNESS: ASIM EGRLIC [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Egrlic.

16 A. Good morning.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask how much time I have got

18 left.

19 JUDGE KWON: I was told that you will have one hour and

20 15 minutes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If I can finish even

22 sooner, I will do so. I will not waste our time.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. [Interpretation] I wanted to ask you, Mr. Egrlic, about something

25 you said yesterday on page 19963 responding to my question whether you

Page 20007

1 went to Croatia during the war. It's in line 16 to 20.

2 Whether you visited Croatia during the war, you said you did not

3 do so during the war, and you confirmed that. You said, "As far as I

4 know, I did not." However, in your testimony in the Zupljanin case,

5 which is 65 ter 22085, on page 6810, I will read both question and answer

6 in English so that it would be correctly recorded:

7 [In English] [As read] "Q. And then you speak of an occasion

8 where you travelled to Zagreb, to Croatia, to meet some people from

9 Switzerland, and then you also mentioned Alija Bilic, that you travelled

10 -- that you travelled in your car and that on that occasion you took over

11 18 Swiss francs.

12 "A. That was the assistance they provided for humanitarian aid.

13 "Q. Did you take that money then to Sarajevo, to the SDA party?

14 Did you turn that money over to those purposes?

15 "A. I didn't."

16 [Interpretation] So you did visit Zagreb during the war; correct?

17 JUDGE KWON: Just before you answer, Mr. Egrlic.

18 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. --

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER: Sorry to interrupt. Just a clarification on the

21 page numbers. I don't have the page numbers of the Stanisic Zupljanin

22 case extending into the 6800s. Can the accused please check that and

23 indicate whether he misspoke and there's a different page number.

24 JUDGE KWON: Are they uploaded?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 6118.

Page 20008

1 MR. TIEGER: That clarifies. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

3 Do you remember the question, Mr. Egrlic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

5 JUDGE KWON: Then please proceed to answer.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for my visit to Zagreb, I said

7 yesterday, as far as I remember, that I did go there. Whether the war

8 was still on-going is something I cannot confirm, because I passed

9 through territories where I did not see that the war was on-going. One

10 was free to travel.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Thank you. Did you oppose the deployment of some parts of the

13 Knin Corps on Laniste?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At the time when Bosnia was still an integral part of Yugoslavia?

16 A. Well, that was at some point in early 1992, as far as I remember.

17 In the month of February, when even though some people opposed that and

18 others were in favour of that, a part of the Knin Corps did arrive in

19 Laniste.

20 Q. In your statement from 1997, in 65 ter 22083, on page 5,

21 described that members of the Assembly, I suppose the Kljuc Assembly,

22 those who were Bosnians, opposed the idea, but they were the minority.

23 Would you agree with me that no army in the world, including the JNA,

24 would not ask for approval from the local authorities to deploy troops in

25 the territory?

Page 20009

1 A. You have asked me a question which was raised at the meeting of

2 the Council for National Defence. It shouldn't have been on the agenda,

3 because there was no discussion about it. However, the outcome of the

4 vote was such as it was, because the Bosniaks who were opposed to the

5 idea were out-voted and the army came there. We believed that there was

6 no need to station parts of the Knin Corps in that area, in particular

7 not in the Laniste area, which is a forest area where some labour was

8 performed by workers from a forestry company. They had some of their

9 premises there, their restaurant and offices, a small repair facility,

10 and so on.

11 Q. Thank you. But you wish to say that the president of the

12 municipality Jovo Banjac, who was also the president of the

13 National Defence council as part of his responsibilities, included this

14 issue in the agenda even though he did not have to do that; correct?

15 A. I don't know if he had to do it, but he did include it in the

16 agenda.

17 Q. And was he aware of the position of the Muslim community in

18 Kljuc, and was that the reason for him to include it in the agenda?

19 A. We stated our positions in an open manner. Even at that session

20 we said that we opposed the idea.

21 Q. Thank you. In the same statement, on page 5 in B/C/S, probably

22 in English as well, that's 22083, you said that you went to Laniste to

23 see what was happening, and you said "I saw cannons with barrels turned

24 towards the town of Kljuc. They were dug in." And is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 20010

1 Q. Do you have an explanation, why would the JNA turn its cannons

2 towards the town of Kljuc in which the Serbs are the majority population

3 and they also held power in that town?

4 A. I would like to know that too, why they came there and why they

5 came with guns.

6 Q. But it's not logical, is it, that from the fact that the barrels

7 of the guns were turned in some direction you would draw such a

8 conclusion; the barrels have to be turned in some direction, don't they?

9 A. Well yes.

10 Q. From the fact that they were turned towards the town of Kljuc you

11 drew the conclusion that this was a threat for the town?

12 A. Well, later on it really came to happen. It's a fact. The town

13 of Kljuc was -- sustained some damage by the -- from the army which was

14 stationed there and the police which was in the town, so my suspicions

15 proved to be right. A major crime was committed there. The army, the

16 reservists, and the police did that. So it's superfluous to ask such

17 questions, because a barracks was formed there and civilians who had been

18 killed in Biljane were driven through there and then they were thrown in

19 Bezdan. It means that the army participated in the commission of the

20 crime, and I think that there can be no justification. The army was

21 there and it turned out that crimes were really committed under the

22 control of the army and the police.

23 Q. Mr. Egrlic, what I'm asking you now is about the following fact:

24 Were the Serbs the majority population in Kljuc, and did they hold power

25 in the municipality?

Page 20011

1 A. When you look at the data from the census, they were not the

2 majority. Bosniaks, Yugoslavs, and others made up more than one-half of

3 the population in Kljuc. But it is a fact that the Serbs won the

4 elections and they were in power. That is a fact.

5 Q. And these elections held in 1990, were they also a kind of

6 census?

7 A. As far as I know, the census was conducted in 1991.

8 Q. Well, if the Serbs and the Serbian Democratic Party won the

9 election, then it's clear to you that those Yugoslavs you mentioned were

10 for the most part also Serbs, which additionally increases the number of

11 Serbs in the general population; correct?

12 A. I don't know what you mean to say by that. Can you please

13 clarify.

14 Q. Well, you place the Yugoslavs together with the Muslim and the

15 Croatian block as if the Yugoslavs were not for the most part Serbs or as

16 if the Yugoslavs were against Yugoslavia.

17 A. I'm just talking about the census, not about who was in favour of

18 what. Some people declare themselves as Yugoslavs and then it turned out

19 later on that the Bosniaks were those who, for the most part, declared

20 themselves as such. But there were others as well; there were a few

21 Serbs and Croats who also declared themselves in the like manner.

22 Q. Let us not dwell on this topic. Mr. Egrlic, you are now saying

23 that in 1991 the Muslims, for the most part, were in favour of

24 Yugoslavia, at the moment when they had already decided to leave

25 Yugoslavia. What I say is that in 1991 when the census was conducted

Page 20012

1 neither the Muslims nor the Croats declared themselves as Yugoslavs

2 because they had decided to leave Yugoslavia; isn't that correct?

3 A. I'm talking about a part of the population, the people who

4 declare themselves as Yugoslavs by ethnicity. We have talked about this.

5 Let us try to avoid confusion. The Bosniaks declare themselves as

6 Bosniaks, but there were some people who declared themselves in terms of

7 ethnicity as Yugoslavs. And there is nothing in dispute about that,

8 because there was a special category in the census as Yugoslavs, and you

9 can see the figures.

10 Q. Thank you. At that moment, the JNA, the part of the Knin Corps,

11 was also predominantly Serb, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why would the predominantly Serb JNA turn its guns towards the

14 predominantly Serb populated Kljuc?

15 A. Well, you should best ask the commander who did turn the barrels

16 in that direction why he did that.

17 Q. Thank you. Were you active in your party during the war, once

18 you had been exchanged?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. What was the function that you performed?

21 A. I was the president of the Municipal Board, but that was as a

22 refugee.

23 Q. Did you join the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

24 A. No, I didn't. But I was a member of the War Presidency of the

25 Kljuc municipality which was in refuge and its seat was in Zenica.

Page 20013

1 Q. Thank you. In Zenica and Travnik, did you cooperate with the

2 War Presidency of Sanski Most?

3 A. Well, I met everyone, the representatives of all the

4 municipalities which were exiled to the area of Central Bosnia.

5 Q. All right. And what was the duty of the War Presidencies which

6 were in exile in Zenica or in Travnik?

7 A. Their duty was to take care of the population in the sense of

8 providing humanitarian assistance and resolving problems which arose

9 among the exiled population.

10 Q. Did you welcome people who were leaving Kljuc? For example, if

11 someone left Kljuc and if a bus of the inhabitants arrived, who would

12 take care of them?

13 A. Well, once I got there, everybody had been expelled from Kljuc

14 already, so no one arrived anymore.

15 Q. Sir, can you please refrain from using such qualifications and

16 say that they were expellees. We established yesterday that one needed

17 ten or 15 documents or forms. They were refugees. They had fled, rather

18 than expellees. They were not expelled. You are putting me in a

19 position where we have to clarify this all over again.

20 A. No, they were really expelled.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER: As I think the witness has addressed the issue, I

23 simply wanted to point out the Court has previously discouraged the

24 accused from attempting to qualify or limit the witness's responses, and

25 I think that was another example, should be -- it should not take place

Page 20014

1 and should be discouraged.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

3 Please bear that in mind, Mr. Karadzic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. But I think that I have

5 a right to warn the witness not to make any qualifications, because we

6 both reached a conclusion that they themselves wanted to go. They were

7 not forced to go by the authorities.

8 JUDGE KWON: No.

9 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, when you ask a question of

10 somebody in cross-examination, you are open to whatever answer that the

11 witness thinks is appropriate. It's one of the dangers of

12 cross-examination. That means, that's why you have to be very focused

13 and specific in your questions.

14 MR. TIEGER: And if I may add, Mr. President and Your Honour:

15 That is an absolutely false representation of what the witness said and

16 the alleged agreement between the accused and the witness with regard to

17 the voluntariness of the departure of people from Kljuc.

18 JUDGE BAIRD: And, Mr. Karadzic, may I say this: If the witness

19 gives you an answer with which you don't agree, put to him that you don't

20 agree with this and, if you care to, put to him what exactly is your case

21 on this issue.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was under the

23 impression that I had done that, but obviously I didn't do it in a

24 skillful manner.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20015

1 Q. Did you repeat yesterday what you spoke about on several

2 occasions before, that you were in favour of reaching a consensus among

3 the ethnic communities in Bosnia?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that also the position of your party all over Bosnia?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now briefly look at 1D4432.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Do you see this document? This is intended for the media and it

10 reflects the position of the SDA concerning the Vienna Agreement on the

11 formation of the Croat/Muslim Federation. Please look at the fifth

12 paragraph, where it says:

13 "The Muslim people should trust the decision taken by

14 President Izetbegovic. There is no reason for concern. The SDA has

15 absolute majority in the Assembly of BH, and the Assembly according to

16 the constitution of the Federation has general control over the operation

17 of the government and the army."

18 Therefore, do you agree that the position of the SDA was that

19 only such agreements should be accepted that would guarantee them that

20 they would exert complete and full control?

21 A. I see this document for the first time, and I have no comment.

22 I'm really reluctant to comment on something that I never saw before. I

23 have no detailed knowledge about this, and I don't want to comment.

24 Q. Thank you. But this is the position of your party. And you said

25 that their view was that the [indiscernible] should work on the principle

Page 20016

1 of a consensus. Does this indicate that a consensus was going to be

2 reached, or is somebody's going to take predominance?

3 A. I'm not able to draw any conclusions of the sort. This speaks

4 about some kind of agreement between the Bosniaks and the Croats, whereas

5 what kind of position was taken vis-à-vis the Serbs and other

6 ethnicities, there's no mention of that. Therefore, one cannot conclude

7 that the party was opposed to reaching an agreement with the others, and

8 I don't think that you are right in claiming that that is the case.

9 Q. But do you agree that this paragraph indicates that they should

10 accept this because they have managed to have the majority?

11 A. I said, Your Honours, that I honestly cannot express any opinions

12 about something that I see for the first time. I don't know anything

13 about it. This was taken out of a certain context, I suppose, and

14 therefore I'm not able to construe any announcement made by the party.

15 All I can do is to comment and to interpret the things that I myself

16 wrote and signed.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted into

19 evidence. Let's look at the document so that we can see the date. Can

20 we zoom out. The date is the 12th of May, and this press release was

21 passed on to all the media.

22 JUDGE KWON: I take it you do not object to it.

23 MR. TIEGER: Correct, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1750, Your Honours.

Page 20017

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Egrlic, we agreed that you knew the locations

3 where exhumations were carried out but that you didn't know where and how

4 those people were killed among other things due to the fact that you had

5 already been in captivity.

6 A. I attended all the exhumations and I saw everything with my own

7 eyes; however, I was not at the site where people perished. All I know

8 about that comes from the stories that I heard from other people who

9 experienced them themselves.

10 Q. Do you know that it was the duty of the civilian protection to

11 carry out the "asanacija" or the hygenic measures on a battle-field?

12 A. Yes.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly look at P3316.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. It refers to the neighbouring town of Sanski Most. We have a

16 similar paper for Kljuc, only we have to find it first. Do you see here

17 that the municipal staff of the civilian protection issued an order to

18 carry out "asanacija" including the finding and the burial of the bodies

19 at a designated location; is that correct? And Mico [as interpreted]

20 Kljujic, obviously a Croat, was charged with this task. This is

21 obviously a Croat surname. Do you know that whenever there's a war, once

22 the fighting starts, it is customary for the civilian protection to come

23 out to find the bodies and to mark these locations so that people can be

24 easily found later on?

25 A. Yes. And to lower them onto the trucks and load them off into

Page 20018

1 caves, is that the way how you perform assanation [as interpreted]?

2 There was quite a few people who were killed in that way and thrown into

3 the caves.

4 Q. I'm asking you that in all areas people who were killed in one

5 location were buried in different locations?

6 A. I don't know about Sanski Most. I also know that there were

7 caves there as well and people were collected and their bodies thrown

8 into them.

9 Q. During the fighting, do you know how many Serbs were killed and

10 how many Muslims were killed?

11 A. I don't know these figures. I know what figures were printed in

12 the media. Some say they were correct, some say they were wrong.

13 Unfortunately there is no official document as yet on this issue.

14 Q. Do you know that the Kljuc Light Brigade sustained losses in

15 terms of 300 members were killed and 17 were wounded?

16 A. I don't know how many people were killed. I'm talking here about

17 the civilians who were killed, who were later exhumed, and that they were

18 buried at the cemeteries with dignity. One can always go and take a look

19 at that, and if you don't believe anyone, you can count those headstone,

20 and it is really a horrendous sight. Everyone who comes there for a

21 first time has goose bumps once he sees the situation.

22 I don't know if you yourself had an opportunity to see that, but

23 you have these kind of cemeteries all across Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm not

24 disputing that both the Serbs and the Croats and other ethnicities were

25 killed, but the plight of the civilians, the fact that they were taken

Page 20019

1 out from their houses and shot dead, that happened to the Bosniaks of

2 Kljuc.

3 You can imagine how big the figure of 600 people is when you have

4 them attending a football game, let alone when you kill so many people.

5 In addition, 3.500 Bosniak houses were destroyed. A number of mosques

6 were destroyed. 17.000 people were made to leave. So they became

7 virtually extinct. So what are we talking here about? We are talking

8 about some pieces of paper. This is shameful. And I really don't want

9 to look at any papers coming from Sanski Most.

10 Mr. Karadzic, there is no justification for this kind of crime,

11 no matter how hard you try to disprove that by presenting certain papers.

12 Q. Did you yourself see any of the killings?

13 A. Other people saw them. I believed them. I saw bodies being

14 exhumed. All of that I saw with my own eyes.

15 Q. Since you asked me, I can tell you that I attended a lot of

16 exhumations and mass burials. But I'm asking you: Do you know and can

17 you testify to the fact of the exact location where those people were

18 killed and how? Did you see that with your own eyes?

19 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President --

20 JUDGE KWON: That's answered. Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter 1104.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Meanwhile, Mr. Witness, is it correct that between the

24 27th through to 31st of May the assistant police commander was killed, a

25 number of soldiers were captured, et cetera; is that correct?

Page 20020

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You were the president of the Kljuc government. Yesterday I

3 received information that this convoy that came under attack had been

4 announced, had proper markings, and had an escort, and nobody from the

5 convoy opened fire, however fire was opened from Velagici on the bus and

6 as a result a number of soldiers were killed.

7 A. I don't know. I didn't witness this event, and I did not

8 participate in the work of municipal organs from 7th May onwards.

9 Q. However, on the 1st of June, a crime was committed in Velagici

10 where the civilians whose headstones you showed us were killed. Now,

11 this is an Official Note about this location. Without trying to make any

12 excuses for this kind of revenge, Mr. Egrlic, can you agree that

13 1st of June is after the 31st of May and that the sequence of events of

14 these tragic and unacceptable events was that Velagici first fired at the

15 convoy and after that somebody came to take revenge by slaughtering the

16 civilians?

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: I think, in the guise of trying to clarify a

19 sequence which is already clear, the accused is embedding representations

20 about the state of the evidence which are inaccurate and to which the

21 witness has already testified to the contrary. So that question has to

22 be either rephrased, deconstructed, or abandoned, but it's an unfair

23 attempt to get the witness to affirm something in one context, when he's

24 already indicated the contrary earlier.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please make question simple and

Page 20021

1 direct, otherwise you'll not be benefitted from the answer from the

2 witness.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Very well. Mr. Egrlic, did you know that this case was

5 investigated, that already on the 3rd of June a commission visited the

6 site and recorded it as one can see from this Official Note?

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. [No interpretation]

9 JUDGE KWON: Just --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

11 Sorry.

12 JUDGE KWON: We didn't get the interpretation. Could you kindly

13 repeat your answer, Mr. Egrlic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regard this previous question, I

15 said that I didn't know anything about that because I was arrested on the

16 28th of May. And after that date I don't know anything about what was

17 happening.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1751, Your Honours.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Egrlic, do you know that upon entering Kljuc in 1995 you

Page 20022

1 discovered a lot of investigation material which served as a basis for

2 trying a large number of Serb perpetrators?

3 A. No, I'm not familiar with that. I was never involved in any kind

4 of work dealing with such materials.

5 Q. I would like to ask you if you agree that even in late May the

6 Serbian side expressed understanding and delayed their demands for

7 weapons to be surrendered, hoping that there would be a calming and

8 reconciliation?

9 A. I know that an ultimatum was issued that was broadcast on

10 Radio Kljuc. And the ultimatum said that weapons had to be surrendered

11 until a certain dead-line, I believe it was the 14th, otherwise weapons

12 will be seized with all means available. I know that was said on the

13 radio, and I can reproduce it here.

14 Q. Thank you. Was that dead-line postponed a number of times upon

15 the request of the Muslim side?

16 A. I really don't know that. I was not involved.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us take a look at D1728.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. The sharpest crisis involving weapons began on the 31st of May,

20 after that you were wounded and people visited you in hospital. And

21 Mr. Omer Filipovic -- take a look at the first sentence:

22 [As read] "Since Mr. Omer Filipovic on behalf of the Muslims and

23 all the people who possess weapons has asked for postponement of

24 dead-line until 1000 hours on 29 May, and the Kljuc -- and a token of

25 understanding for this proposal, the Kljuc Defence command has accepted

Page 20023

1 his proposal under the condition of the seven captured soldiers from the

2 Crljeni area and the assistant commander of the police station in Kljuc

3 will be handed over by 1700 hours."

4 So you see that by that time they had not been handed over and

5 the Serbian side accepted the postponement of the dead-line; is that

6 correct?

7 A. I have already answered. I don't believe you should pressurise

8 me if it was this way or not. I was not involved in the events, and I

9 don't know. I can see what it reads. But whether it was that way or not

10 isn't anything I could know.

11 Q. All right. Since you are unfamiliar with many things that

12 happened after 28 of May, I will conclude this cross-examination.

13 Thank you. And please don't feel that I'm attacking you, which

14 I'm not doing. I'm only looking for the truth, but truth is not easy to

15 find. And you can be sure that I have the same position toward the war.

16 We could have done everything much better without the war, and that was

17 an option that was open to you.

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. TIEGER: I was just rising to object to the continuation of

20 the concluding commentary, but it stopped.

21 JUDGE KWON: You don't have any re-examination?

22 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE KWON: Well, then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Egrlic.

25 On behalf of this Chamber, my colleagues, and the Tribunal as a whole, I