Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20764

 1                           Wednesday, 2 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President.

 7             Mr. President, we would request that the Chamber, if possible,

 8     recess after the testimony of this current witness in order to allow

 9     members of our Defence team to interview the next witness, Nenad Krejic.

10     We have been unable to accomplish that since your ruling that

11     Dr. Karadzic couldn't interview him himself, we would like to be able to

12     do that before he begins his testimony, thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before I hear from the Prosecution, could you tell

14     us why the interviews were not organised earlier, i.e., yesterday

15     afternoon?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Yesterday afternoon we had

17     already pre-organised a videolink interview with witness KDZ532 and so

18     until 5.00 we were occupied, myself at the Detention Unit and

19     Mr. Stevanovic in the videolink room, with that previously scheduled

20     interview.

21             JUDGE KWON:  One further question.  Is Mr. Karadzic's

22     cross-examination of Mr. Krejic impossible without proofing him before

23     his cross-examination?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No, of course not, Mr. President.  Because if a

25     witness refuses to consent to an interview, then we have to do the

Page 20765

 1     cross-examination anyway, so it's not impossible, but given that the

 2     witness consented, then we think that it's -- it's preferable at least

 3     that we have this interview and there shouldn't be any obstacles to it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Obstacles is that we are losing time.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  We requested these interviews on the 1st of

 6     September and the 21st of October.  The reason that they weren't

 7     accomplished is because the Registry didn't decide them until 7.59 p.m.

 8     on the 28th of October, and we filed an appeal first thing on Monday

 9     morning, you ruled yesterday, and so here we are.  Sometimes those things

10     happen.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But you do still agree Mr. Karadzic can

12     cross-examine him without proofing him?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, we don't agree to that, but we recognise

14     that it's a physical possibility, but where a witness has consented to

15     meet with the Defence, we think that he has a right to that before the

16     witness actually testifies.  But it's not physically impossible to do it

17     because witnesses refuse testify -- I mean, refuse to be interviewed and

18     we have to cross-examine them.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good morning, Your Honours.

21             As Mr. Robinson just said, where a witness has consented to meet

22     with the Defence -- and that's quite right, the Defence could have

23     interviewed this person, as Your Honour observed, yesterday when you gave

24     your ruling, that he may have been interviewed prior to their testimonies

25     by one of the accused's legal associates or by the accused himself over

Page 20766

 1     the telephone.  They've had the name since the 7th of May, 2009, and

 2     could have contacted and spoken to the witness before that.  And in

 3     relation to even seeing the witness at 5.00 p.m. last night, that could

 4     have been arranged through the VWS, and it wasn't.  And now we are in a

 5     situation where we have to -- there's the request for the delay, which

 6     the Prosecution thinks is unreasonable.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I could remind you that we

 8     started the week with a two-hour delay because the Prosecution wanted to

 9     proof a witness who came in late, so they could have also proofed that

10     witness since May of 2009.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness wasn't proofed.  That

12     was the [Overlapping speakers] --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's stop here.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will rise for five minutes.

16                           --- Break taken at 9.12 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 9.21 a.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, the Chamber has considered the

19     submission as well as the Prosecution 's response and have come to a

20     conclusion not to grant your request.  The Chamber is not satisfied that

21     Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination would not be possible without proofing

22     the witness, not only in a general sense but also in this specific case,

23     and the Chamber does not agree that the accused has an absolute right to

24     proof a witness when the witness in question has agreed or consented to

25     being proofed.

Page 20767

 1             While the Chamber finds it unfortunate that the Registry took so

 2     long a time in responding to your motion, if it is really necessary to

 3     proof the witness in question, i.e., Mr. Krejic, the Chamber observed

 4     that it could be done during the remainder of this -- of

 5     cross-examination of this incumbent witness.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll leave it at that.

 8             Let's bring in the next witness.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I don't mean to prolong

10     the discussion, but just to note that we just simply don't have anybody

11     available to conduct that interview while the witness is -- this witness

12     is testifying.  So it's an ideal but not a practicality.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  And it occurs to me that by and large matters

14     which arose - this is going back to my own experience, I must admit - by

15     and large matters which would be raised in witness proofing can be dealt

16     with in cross-examination.  The advantage of witness proofing is it

17     sometimes reduces the time for cross-examination, but its subject matter

18     can be covered.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we are waiting for the

20     witness, I'm noticing that the transcript is very rough this morning, and

21     hopefully someone will listen to the tape and sort it all out.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, I appear to be designated as a welsh man,

23     "Morris Morris."

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.  Please be seated.  We'll lift

Page 20768

 1     the curtain.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll lift the curtain.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

 6     Good morning to all.

 7                            WITNESS:  KDZ163 [Continued]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Resumed]

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

11        A.   Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.

12        Q.   Just two pages from the transcript before I show you some

13     documents.  On pages 59 and 62, what was put to you was Kupresanin's

14     request asking for certain individuals to be pardoned.  Do you agree that

15     Kupresanin was never dismissed from any particular office, he remained an

16     MP up until the very end except that the Krajina was abolished so he was

17     no longer president of the Assembly?

18        A.   I said yesterday that indeed I never saw or met Mr. Kupresanin,

19     but I know from the press that he did have some particular office in the

20     R Krajina, but you know what, I was in quite a condition myself at the

21     time and I was very busy, so I wasn't really following any of that.

22             I know he was not dismissed.  I never saw that in the newspapers

23     or anywhere else in the media, something like that that he had been

24     dismissed.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on page 65, I notice some figures, 4.403

Page 20769

 1     detainees went through the camp, 2.900 were handed over to the Red Cross,

 2     532 were transferred to Batkovic in order to be exchanged.  There is a

 3     remainder of 328.  Does that mean that persons were being released

 4     successively so that it was not only large-scale releases that took place

 5     but rather that every day a few people would be released if they met the

 6     necessary requirements?

 7        A.   Yes, until now it never crossed my mind to add up these figures.

 8     Now I see that perhaps I should have done that.  According to our

 9     records, not the records of the ICRC, but our records, 4.403 persons

10     passed through the camp.  However, in the camp itself there were never

11     that many people at the same time.  It was always 500 or 600 less than

12     that at one point in time, that is.

13             Now, this is the reason:  Prisoner exchanges took place all the

14     time, two groups per week, so this was a flowing current, they were

15     coming and going.  The figure that you presented when adding all of this

16     up and subtracting, it would seem that these persons were exchanged.

17     Perhaps when groups went to third countries or something like that.  At

18     any rate, it has to do with an exchange of prisoners.  Those who were

19     transferred to Batkovic were also exchanged ultimately.  Appropriate

20     individuals and organs from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

21     Srpska assessed that we would need someone to exchange for our own people

22     who had been taken prisoner, so that is why these individuals were

23     transferred to Batkovic.  131 individuals were handed over to the

24     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps because they also had some of their own members

25     that had been imprisoned.

Page 20770

 1        Q.   Thank you.  This is why I'm asking this:  The witnesses who were

 2     prisoners say here from time to time the names of five persons were

 3     called out and they never came back.  This is something they state very

 4     often when they say they were taken out and never returned.  When these

 5     groups or individuals were taken out, does that mean that they were

 6     killed, or if they never returned, does that mean that they were

 7     exchanged or released?  Because the witnesses suggest that if they do not

 8     return, they probably get killed.

 9        A.   I claim, and I abide by the oath that I took yesterday, that all

10     of these persons who were taken out 5, 10, 15, even up to 40 individuals,

11     that does not mean that the other prisoners would know what had happened

12     to them.  In most cases, it had to do with an exchange.  None of them

13     suffered or was killed, heaven forbid.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at 65 ter

16     23506.  If it's already in e-court, that is.  But if -- oh, it is in

17     e-court.  Yes.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Could you please take a look.  There is a translation as well,

20     but could the Serbian version be zoomed in a bit.

21             Do you agree that this is already the 13th of September, 1991,

22     during the war in Croatia?  This decision was taken, as it was deemed

23     necessary, to organise a camp for prisoners of war.

24        A.   That's right.  This is an order of the command of the 5th Corps.

25     This is the time of the JNA, the 5th Corps had its headquarters in Banja

Page 20771

 1     Luka.  This order was probably derived from an order from a higher

 2     command.  That would be the SSNO or the 1st Army from Belgrade, to have

 3     the camp established, that is.  This necessity was based on the fact that

 4     members of the ZNG who were fleeing from the Serb forces, or should I say

 5     the JNA forces, from Croatian Kostajnica.  They fled across the bridge on

 6     the Una river.  They fled into Bosanska Kostajnica.  So they were enemy

 7     soldiers, at the time, if I can put it that way, they were armed, they

 8     were wearing uniforms, there were about 370 of them.  I'm not sure how

 9     many of them there were, it's about 370 men who were taken prisoner at

10     the time in Bosanska Kostajnica.  And now, what could be done with them?

11     A camp was to be established in order to carry a triage and to take all

12     other security-related actions.

13        Q.   Thank you.  There is also reference to the 3rd Geneva convention

14     in paragraph 5.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page to see

16     who actually signed this document.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   This was signed by then Colonel Talic; isn't that right?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in

20     English as well.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   There's a reference to Manjaca where food would be prepared and

23     so on.  Everything is taken care of; right?

24        A.   Yes.  All of this is spelled out in very precise terms in the

25     order.  All the way down to logistical details.

Page 20772

 1        Q.   400 meals per day and laundry and everything else.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1846, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at 65 ter 17847.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you agree that this is the 7th of January, 1992?  Again, it's

 8     still the JNA, and it's an order that has to do with Stara Gradiska and

 9     Manjaca, and yet again everything is prescribed as to what should be

10     done.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

12     [In English] Ah, it could be -- it should be English.  Okay.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So do you agree that it's the commander that is signing this,

15     Lieutenant-General Vladimir Vukovic who was nothing in the Army of

16     Republika Srpska but in the JNA rather; right?

17        A.   That's right.  This is the month of January 1992.  The JNA still

18     existed at the time.  For Bosnia-Herzegovina the JNA existed until the

19     20th of April, 1992.  This is yet another order of the commander of the

20     5th Corps.  It is still the JNA.  The order has to do with the

21     organisation of life and work in the camp, what they put there,

22     Stara Gradiska.  Before the war, Stara Gradiska was a prison, wasn't it.

23     So it was being used now for prisoners of war, for keeping them there,

24     interrogating them and so on.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted.

Page 20773

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1847, Your Honours.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I believe it's a mistake in the transcript or perhaps you

 5     misspoke.  Do you agree that the JNA existed until the 20th of May, 1992,

 6     not April?  The JNA left Bosnia on the 19th of May?  Don't you remember

 7     that on the 3rd of May they were attacked and then in Tuzla on the 15th

 8     of May they were attacked?

 9        A.   Possibly, it was a slip of the tongue.  I know that it's the 19th

10     or 20th.  Now, whether it's April or May, it's possible.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D425.  Can we briefly take a look

13     at that, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you agree that in this document Stojan Zupljanin is

16     redistributing a telegram that he received from Dobro Planojevic,

17     assistant minister for crime prevention on the 8th of June, 1992, and

18     what is prescribed there is how prisoners of war should be treated, in

19     the spirit of humanitarian law and the Geneva Conventions?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  We also received similar orders through our own

21     military chain.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D426, could we now have a look at

24     that, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20774

 1        Q.   Do you agree that this is again the 8th of June, 1992, and SRNA

 2     is carrying my appeal to the International Red Cross in relation to all

 3     of these paragraphs, and do you agree that this was a well known position

 4     of all the institutions there, to act in this way, that is?

 5        A.   Yes, I said yesterday that from several levels and in different

 6     ways we received appeals and orders as regards the observance of the

 7     Geneva Conventions and the treatment of prisoners and detainees.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4724, could we have that now,

 9     please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Hasn't been released, Mr. Karadzic.  It's not

11     been released in e-court.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll go back to that later, then.

13             1D294, could we have that, please.  4724 was the previous one.

14     1D4274.  I thought that this had been admitted.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It wasn't -- Your Honour, it wasn't a document

16     that was notified either.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I see it in the notification.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But the previous document that hasn't been

19     released, 4724, 1D4724.

20             JUDGE KWON:  No, we are talking about 1D4274.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  I was told it hasn't been released.  Now we have.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree, Witness, that on the 12th of June, the Main Staff,

25     and then it was modified to be resent from corps level, was an

Page 20775

 1     instruction issued on the treatment of prisoners of war?

 2        A.   Yes, I agree.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.  In

 4     English as well.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   It specifies to whom it is sent, chief of security of the

 7     1st Krajina Corps, and then it's sent on to Manjaca, what we see in

 8     handwriting, training-ground in Manjaca, the press service.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You know that this was the position and this was sent to -- into

12     the field?

13        A.   Yes, precisely.  That was the amended, or rather, adjusted order

14     from the Main Staff and retyped.  All the modifications that were done in

15     hand were here neatly retyped and -- by professional typists and then --

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1848, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D297 is the next document I would

21     like to call up.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you agree this is my order on the application of the rules of

24     international laws of war that I issued as soon as I was elected on the

25     13th of May, but it was published only on the 13th of June, the day after

Page 20776

 1     that order by Mladic, and it was adopted by the same session of the

 2     Presidency?  Do you agree this was done in keeping with the needs and

 3     requirements, but do you agree that it was not strictly necessary because

 4     every officer in our army was aware of this?

 5        A.   I was not able to see this order for objective reasons, but of

 6     course I agree with the gist of it, with the contents, and I agree with

 7     what you said that every soldier in our army, and especially every

 8     officer, was aware of all this, even from their school textbooks, let

 9     alone after this series of additional orders and instructions and appeals

10     issued before the war and during the war.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1849, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is ordered here, or rather, the

16     minister of defence is authorised to issue instructions, et cetera.

17     Could we now see 1D298.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you agree that this is the instruction that the minister of

20     defence was authorised to issue on the treatment of POWs, and here on

21     page 1 we see 10 paragraphs and there are 19 more on the next page.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I suppose there is a translation.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Reed advises that this is

25     P1134.

Page 20777

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Shall we upload it.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

 3     The Defence has a better copy.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But this one has an English translation.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   We see on page 2 here -- we now have two Serbian versions, we

 8     need one in English.  We see it up to item 19 and then we also see a

 9     fragment of a capture card, and on the next page there is a supplement.

10     Do you remember that you had documentation and forms to keep records on

11     every captive?

12        A.   Yes, we used those forms but we also received it in the form of

13     an Official Gazette, but we also had an instruction that was retyped

14     containing all these items and all these forms.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is already an exhibit.  We'll

17     skip many documents that are already be exhibits and deal with the same

18     subject.  Could we now see D103.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This is perhaps something you did not necessarily see because it

21     was sent to Mladic, the minister of the interior, and the minister of

22     justice, where I remind them that sometime earlier I had signed an

23     official authorisation to the delegates of the ICRC and that it should be

24     complied with because there were some incidents on the ground.  So do you

25     agree that the incidents on the ground were not due to the misconduct of

Page 20778

 1     these people but because of certain pathologies among the people on the

 2     ground and the general population?

 3        A.   Of course I didn't see this document.  I wouldn't have been able

 4     to, but I agree with what is written here because we heard the same thing

 5     from the media, that pressures were great and that there were a lot of

 6     complaints against many camps and collection centres, and we felt the

 7     same in Manjaca.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 65 ter 17453.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

11        Q.   One of the variants has been admitted into evidence but in this

12     one the minister of health also joined in.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 17453.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   There's also the signature and the stamp of the minister of

16     health.  Would you please look at this.  This is an instruction to all

17     local civilian and police authorities without any restriction or date.

18     What I'm invoking was issued in June 1992, and it says that the ICRC

19     should be given everything they need, free access and free passage.  Did

20     you in Manjaca feel the effects of this?  Did the ICRC come to visit

21     pursuant to this instruction and other instructions to enable the ICRC to

22     do their job?

23        A.   Yes.  We did feel the effects of this, and I believe these

24     missions of the ICRC brought with them and produced this paper or a

25     similar paper and that was the beginning of regular and frequent visits

Page 20779

 1     to the camp of Manjaca.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] I'm there's no translation.  I

 3     believe there must be one somewhere.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think second page of this document seems to be an

 5     English translation.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page, please.

 7     My service has translated this.  Can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But do we have a date of this?  You said it's June

 9     1992, but I don't see any date on this document.

10             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I note that Mr. Karadzic said

12     there's he also the signature and the stamp of the minister of health.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'm a hit confused.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We also have the version cosigned

15     by the minister of health to strengthen this document.  And as for the

16     date, we did not put the date deliberately so that there could be no

17     objections of expiry or something.  Anyway, the agency SRNA on the 11th

18     of July -- or rather, no, I'll tell you which document it is that we

19     showed a moment ago.  D426.  We can see it was on the 8th of June, 1992.

20     If necessary we can call it up, D426.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take your words.  We'll admit 65 ter numbers

22     17453 as Exhibit D1850.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see 1D304.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I believe you were present, I don't know if we have this in

Page 20780

 1     Serbian, but I will be reading in English because the interpreters will

 2     do a better job than I.  So on behalf of the Presidency, in fact, I was

 3     already president at that time, and I'm writing to Daniel Shiffer, and

 4     I'll read this in English: :

 5             [In English] "Mr. Shiffer, I wish to express my pleasure with you

 6     -- your and Mr. Viesel's visit to Yugoslavia and the Republika Srpska.

 7     In the circumstances in which the truth is distorted, the visit of

 8     persons of such a moral and humane authority as Viesel and his associates

 9     are in one of those rare -- is of those blessings -- of the rare

10     blessings.

11             "You have seen that Serbs in Bosnia have prisoners of war and

12     that they are treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.  The

13     Muslim and the Croatian side do not respect the human rights of

14     imprisoned Serbs.

15             "So far the Serbs have made many unilateral gestures, including

16     several cases of unilateral release of prisoners of war.  The other side

17     has not made a single reciprocal move.  In spite of that, we are ready to

18     make another move.  In honour of Mr. Viesel's and his associates visit to

19     Yugoslavia and the Republika Srpska and on the occasion of our Orthodox

20     Christmas, we are willing to release all prisoners from Manjaca if the

21     international community and the International Red Cross are ready to

22     accept them and convey them to third countries.

23             "We do hope and expect that Mr. Viesel's reputation of a man of

24     high moral standards and respectability of his associates will exert

25     pressure upon the Muslim and Croatian side to release thousands of

Page 20781

 1     captured Serbs."

 2             Do you remember the visits of Mr. Shiffer and Mr. Viesel to

 3     Manjaca?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember, especially Mr. Shiffer, I believe he was there

 5     several times, and we even symbolically gave him the key of the Manjaca

 6     camp once it was disbanded.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did it ever happen, Witness, that any of the

 8     prisoners of war who were released or exchanged be captured again in

 9     battle and brought back to Manjaca?

10        A.   Yes.  We did some research into that and I was surprised myself

11     that people who had gone through what they had gone through and had the

12     chance to go to third countries rejoined units on whatever side and get

13     captured again.  There were not many such cases but there were such

14     cases, namely, that people who had been in Manjaca once were captured

15     again and brought back.

16        Q.   So do you believe it was reasonable on our part to request from

17     the ICRC that prisoners be taken to third countries so that we don't end

18     up reinforcing the enemy army when we release people?

19        A.   Yes, I also think that is reasonable and logical.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can that be admitted.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1851, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20782

 1        Q.   You said you had practically on a daily basis and sometimes at

 2     regular intervals reports to the competent command; that is to say, the

 3     command of the 1st Krajina Corps?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 5775, please.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3724, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, then we won't dwell on

 8     this much.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a report saying that according to plan, two crews of

11     reporters and cameramen visited and their names are listed.  It's 8

12     August 1992.  Do you remember the visit of these reporters?

13        A.   There were many visits by reporters, but I'd like to see the

14     second page because if I wrote this then I must have been present when

15     they visited.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page.  I

17     believe this document has been shown before in the examination-in-chief.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It says here that this is signed by Radinkovic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be viewed in public.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   It mentions that Kupresanin had been there at my request, or on

23     my orders, and the president asked him to talk to commanders of

24     pavilions, and two prisoners were released on that day, Ago Deronjic, son

25     of Ragib, and Zuhdija Ramic, son of Dervis.  Is this an instance of

Page 20783

 1     successive release of prisoners that you mentioned before?

 2        A.   Correct, that is a reference to the same.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  As you said earlier today, the people in the same

 4     facility did not necessarily know what happened with these people?

 5        A.   They usually didn't.  What I'm saying that the other prisoners

 6     were not able to know and didn't know because there were many buildings.

 7     Some people were going out to work or volunteered to work, some were

 8     called out by name for labour duty, because when there were exchanges,

 9     the Muslim side would ask for specific persons, and if these persons

10     happened to be in Manjaca, the names of these people would be called out

11     and they would be released.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4556, please.  But not to be

13     broadcast.  1D4556.  Can the Serbian version be zoomed in just a little

14     for the benefit of the witness.  This should not be broadcast.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   On the 12th of August, a team of journalists appeared and then

17     members of the government of the Serbian Republic of BH also visited to

18     see the conditions of life of the detainees.  They had an approval signed

19     by the then prime minister, Mr.  Djeric, and it says here that

20     Colonel Vukovic also visited, and further on it says that he looked at

21     the activities of the international committee of the Red Cross.  Is this

22     an authentic document?  Does it reflect the truth?  Were the visits

23     indeed that frequent both by the journalists as well as the

24     representatives of the Red Cross?

25   (redacted)

Page 20784

 1   (redacted)

 2     Immediately after we received a large number of detainees who were

 3     transferred from Omarska.  After that, visits were a bit more frequent

 4     than usually, but they were very frequent anyway.  Everybody wanted to

 5     publish a bombastic piece of news, if I may put it that way.  So this is

 6     a true reflection of the events that took place at the time.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be admitted as Exhibit D1852 under

 9     seal, but in the mean time, could the Chamber move into private session

10     briefly.

11                           [Private Session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 20785

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  1D4557 is the document

19     that I would like to call up.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   The translation is still not in place because the telegram is not

22     very legible, but I hope that we will be able to deal with it.  Do you

23     agree that here General Milovanovic, Chief of Staff, refers to an

24     agreement that was signed by the minister of health in London, I suppose,

25     together with the Red Cross and the government of the Republika Srpska

Page 20786

 1     about the compulsory submission of certain information about the prison,

 2     about the number of detainees and so on and so forth.  This was drafted

 3     on the 23rd of August 1992.  We were still in August in other words?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that we were also requested to provide certain

 5     information about the camp, about the number of detainees.  I suppose

 6     that this was a reaction to these orders.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1853, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D4558.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Two days later after Milovanovic's telegram, the command of the

14     1st Krajina Corps received something from you and forwarded it to the

15     Main Staff; right?

16        A.   I can see that in this document.  Actually, it was the camp

17     commander who provided the information.  We prepared everything for him

18     and he provided the information to the command, i.e., he first sent it to

19     the assistant commander for logistics who sent it to the Main Staff.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   He received the telegram on the 23rd and already on the 24th he

23     sent his reply and that reply was forwarded to the Main Staff on the 25th

24     of August.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Go to the following page, please.

Page 20787

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And here under 1 we can see that their names, the numbers, and it

 3     says here there are currently 3.659 prisoners, and we also submit the

 4     lists as requested in your telegram.  However, in the note, do you agree

 5     that this commander denies the contents of the telegram in which he was

 6     criticised for not having allowed the International Red Cross to approach

 7     and that he insulted the team, the Supreme Command of the army, and so on

 8     and so forth?  Do you agree that very often the complaints were not

 9     truthful and that I and the Main Staff at first understood them as being

10     correct and that this situation resulted in discords between the camp

11     commander and us?

12             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation]  In English there's another page.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And he says that the Red Cross has visited the camp five times

15     already.

16        A.   The fact is that before the date on the document, there had been

17     a few visits by the International Red Cross and journalists.  I don't

18     have a reason to doubt the note that was drafted and signed by the camp

19     commander, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.  Irrespective of the fact what

20     people think of him and how they perceive him, he was very co-operative

21     in terms of the visits of the Red Cross and journalists, and he wanted to

22     be in the limelight.  He wanted to have his photos taken by journalists.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 20788

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1854, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I note the time.  If it is convenient,

 3     we'll take a break now.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  First break will be for 20 minutes and we'll resume

 6     at twenty to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, I believe that you had very prompt and good

13     communication with the command of the 1st Krajina Corps.  What about the

14     telephone and fax lines with Banja Luka, were they up and running at the

15     time?  There were no outages at the time, were there?

16        A.   We used a military telephone line.  The telephone line was up and

17     running.  We could communicate with Banja Luka.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And what about your communication with the eastern

19     part of the Republika Srpska, Sarajevo and Pale, were those communication

20     lines up and running or not?  Were they compromised?

21        A.   I did not need to use any such communications, but I know for a

22     fact that those communications did not exist.  There was a corridor

23     between us so the lines were not up and running.  I had a problem

24     arriving from (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 20789

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D4559.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you agree that the detainees did not willingly accept that

 4     they had participated in combat, i.e., that they were guilty of

 5     something?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Witness.

 7             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry to interrupt, I'm wondering about a

 9     redaction, page 25, line 14 and 15.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  From the words "from."

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Now, can you answer, Mr. Witness.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

15     question, if that's not a problem.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Yes, I will.  Do you agree that the detainees were not willingly

18     admitting that they had participated in combat and do you agree that

19     during our civil war, people were in combat in civilian clothes for a

20     long time?

21        A.   As far as the first part of your question goes, it is in human

22     nature to resort to all means to defend themselves, one of those means

23     obviously is lying.  They would say that they did not participate in

24     combat, they did not carry arms, that they did not wear uniforms or that

25     there were indicia to the contrary.  And what was the second part of your

Page 20790

 1     question?  I apologise.

 2        Q.   Do you agree that in our civil war people wore civilian clothes

 3     for a long time, that neighbours were fighting neighbours and they did

 4     not have uniforms?  Also some people who were not combatants were

 5     sometimes seen wearing parts of military uniforms for various reasons,

 6     one of them being poverty?  In other words, civilian clothes or a

 7     military coat did not actually identify a person as a soldier or a

 8     civilian, do you agree?

 9        A.   Let's be economical.  At the time, I agree fully that was indeed

10     the case.  Uniforms and civilian clothes did not mean much in our area in

11     the last war.  It was even perpetuous to wear civilian clothes, a track

12     suit, or tennis shoes.

13        Q.   Please look at the document.  This document was issued at

14     Manjaca.  I believe that it can be broadcast.  It doesn't really matter.

15     This is a letter from Manjaca to the 1st Krajina Corps intelligence and

16     security branch.  It says we hereby inform you that according to a

17     record, we have 1.353 prisoners of war.  Ramiz Grapkic was captured in

18     Grapska.  We interviewed 15 persons, statements were taken from 13

19     persons, and interviews are relative Kljuc.  There is also reference to

20     the attack on a military convoy which was planned and organised by

21     Omar Filipovic, and it is also stated that 19 persons participated in

22     that attack.  Is that all correct?  And you can also see their names;

23     right?

24        A.   Yes, this is the very beginning of Manjaca, an active officer or

25     a commissioned officer was captured, and there were eight members of the

Page 20791

 1     JNA among them.  There was the notorious Colonel Zarko among them.  And

 2     as far as the convoy is concerned, after I arrived in Manjaca I learned

 3     about that attack on the convoy and the killing of five or perhaps six

 4     soldiers.  Those soldiers were on their way back.  They were still

 5     members of the JNA because the JNA still officially existed.  I don't see

 6     what date this is.  The soldiers were returning from Krajina or from Knin

 7     on buses.  They came under attack, and I believe that the leader of that

 8     attack was the notorious Amir Avdic.  He was an officer.  He now holds an

 9     office in the Federation.  He is still alive.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,

12     please.  Can we have the following page in English as well.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   At the top of this page, which you can see that

15     Lieutenant Amir Avdic organised about 80 persons, of whom about 70 per

16     cent were armed.  They set out for Bihac, and it is estimated that in the

17     territory of Kljuc municipality he was still hiding armed individuals,

18     some of whom were on their way to Bihac.  Would that be a customary

19     report about the situation in the Manjaca detainee camp?  There were

20     daily reports and there were also collective reports, as it were; is that

21     right?  (redacted)

22        A.   Yes, you were right, there were daily reports that were drafted

23     at the end of every day and then there were also periodical reports, and

24     as needed at the request of a superior, there was also an overview of

25     events that were previously reported.  (redacted)

Page 20792

 1    (redacted)

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1855, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4560, please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This was drafted on the 15th of June.  This is a daily report

 9     which was sent to the command of 1st Krajina Corps to the intelligence

10     security department.  It says here that five prisoners of war were

11     processed and thus new information was learned about the hostile

12     activities of Muslim extremists in the municipalities of Kljuc and

13     Sanski Most.  Then notorious renegades are mentioned.  They were -- they

14     took to the woods and stayed there for a long time, and their names were

15     Draganovic, Hukanovic.  Hukanovic was a commander and he trained a unit

16     consisting of 200 men.  All those men -- men's names are mentioned in

17     here.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see madam.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt again.

20     Could we go into private session for a moment.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 20793

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Now we are in open session.  I wonder whether

20     Mr. Karadzic should repeat his last question or you remember and can

21     answer the question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could he please repeat.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Very well.  This is a daily report.  Do you agree that in this

25     daily report there is a reference to the processing of five prisoners of

Page 20794

 1     war and that new information was obtained about the participation of

 2     those names that are referred to herein in crimes, in attacks.  There is

 3     a reference to Omer Filipovic, Asim Egerlic.  There's also a reference to

 4     a "zolja" attack on a bus, that you will find this in the last paragraph.

 5     Do you agree that this provided enough grounds for those people to be

 6     captured, detained, and tried because they did whatever they did in the

 7     depth of the territory rather than on the front line?

 8        A.   Not to go into too much detail, not to jeopardise my

 9     confidentiality as a witness, I can say that my answer is yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1856, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4561, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   While we are waiting, Witness, let me tell you why I'm asking you

16     this.  I would like to establish what were grounds for somebody's

17     detention.  Did you ever come across a situation where a person was

18     detained because they were of a different ethnicity?  Was that of the

19     sole reason for their detention, or alternatively was there a suspicion

20     that they had participated in a crime?

21        A.   At that time I did not think very much about religion or

22     ethnicity.  This was a less important thing in Manjaca.  In Manjaca,

23     there were a lot of Muslims, over 95 per cent of the detainees were

24     Muslims.  There were about 152 or 150 Croats, and there were five Serbs

25     as well.  Religion or ethnicity was not the decisive factor in the

Page 20795

 1     treatment, detention, or arrival at Manjaca.  I don't know whether I have

 2     managed to answer your question.

 3        Q.   Yes, you did.  I want to establish the grounds for detention.

 4     Whether it was justified or not.  A pure suspicion that a crime was

 5     committed or that the crime was indeed committed or some other reason

 6     because in those municipalities from which the detainees hailed, 90 per

 7     cent of Muslims still remained living and were never brought to Manjaca;

 8     right?  To be very clear, if there were 18.000 Muslims in Kljuc and only

 9     1.100 or 1.200 were brought in, then I wouldn't say that religion was the

10     main criterion based on which they were brought in, do you agree with

11     that?

12        A.   I agree in principle but I cannot confirm the data that you've

13     presented, and these are facts that are probably being taken into

14     account.  I don't know the pre-war population of Kljuc, and I also don't

15     know which percentage came to Manjaca.  For the sake of the truth, I have

16     to say this.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could you please take a

18     look at this document.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This is a daily report.  Yet again what is being reported on is

21     the processing of a certain number of prisoners, and then information is

22     provided about new things that have been learned that either confirmed

23     that someone did participate or refute that.  So Azdemovic, Senad took

24     part.  Look, Jasminko [phoen], so on.  Was that the purpose of this

25     regular processing, to establish whether a crime had been committed or

Page 20796

 1     not, and did you provide information on a daily basis about the

 2     interviews conducted on that day?  The processing of prisoners on a

 3     particular day, that is?

 4        A.   That is evident from this report.  What was focused on, if I can

 5     put it that way, during those days, was to capture the perpetrators of

 6     the attack against military column who killed a few young conscripts who

 7     were just doing their military service.

 8        Q.   Who were going back home and who did not constitute any kind of

 9     threat; right?

10        A.   Precisely.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1857, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4562, could we have that, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   This is a daily report, again dated the 18th of June, and it says

18     that Merhamet, the representatives of the Muslim charity organisation

19     Merhamet visited Manjaca, and then what is described here is the

20     information obtained, who illegally transported weapons to Kljuc and then

21     the names of the perpetrators are listed here.  And it says these

22     individuals confirmed our knowledge from earlier on that Arif Hukanovic

23     from Vrhpolje, municipality of Sanski Most provided weapons in organised

24     manner to Muslims in villages in Kljuc.  And then further down it says:

25     In connection with the visiting POWs, we would like to point out that

Page 20797

 1     between 10.45 and 12.45 the POWs were visited by Adil Mehic; Esad Bajric,

 2     imam; - so that is an imam, right? - Hajro Halilovic; and the lawyer Amir

 3     Djonlic, all of them from Banja Luka.  They visited on behalf of

 4     Merhamet.  Can we move on to the next page now.  It doesn't really have

 5     to be broadcast.

 6             Do you remember that in addition to the Red Cross, the Muslim

 7     organisation Merhamet also came?  See, it says that here, they visited

 8     all the pavilions, they personally got to see how they lived and worked

 9     there, and on page 2 you can see who all the persons that received them

10     were.  Do you remember all of this?

11        A.   Yes, Merhamet was among the first organisations, if I can put it

12     that way, to come and visit the prisoners in camp.  They brought them

13     some aid, some food, that is, and clothing and medicine.  As a matter of

14     fact, we even handed over some prisoners to them.  For example, persons

15     who were younger than 18 and who had not been charged with anything else.

16     There were several visits.  I think that they no longer took place once

17     the ICRC visited.

18        Q.   Thank you.  What it says here is that prisoners freely presented

19     their problems and they said that food was not good.  Do you remember

20     that Merhamet was allowed to bring in extra food?  Did they actually do

21     that?

22        A.   Yes, the actual situation was presented to Merhamet.  They

23     established what the situation really was like as they talked to the

24     detainees, and I cannot remember exactly the food that they brought in,

25     but at any rate then allowed to bring food.

Page 20798

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Who cooked the food in Manjaca?  Who prepared it?

 2        A.   From an organisational point of view, Manjaca was officially

 3     called a POW camp and that is what it said at the entrance and that is

 4     what the stamp also said.  POW camp Manjaca.  It was an organisational

 5     unit of the 1st Krajina Corps and since it was an organisational unit of

 6     the 1st Krajina Corps, that means that from the point of view of

 7     logistics, it was part of that corps as well.  Just like any other unit

 8     or any other brigade, our quartermasters would go to the Kozara barracks

 9     in Banja Luka every day to get provisions.  So they would receive food

10     rations, that is to say bread, meat, vegetables and so on, depending on

11     the number of POWs there.  Whether that was enough is a different matter

12     altogether.  Perhaps other questions will deal with that.  At any rate,

13     they shared the fate of the people and the army at that point in time.

14     In that situation, when there was a blockade, when there was a lack of

15     communication with the rest of Republika Srpska, they shared their fate.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1858, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4563, please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you agree that this is also a daily report dated the 20th of

23     June and that 51 prisoners of war from Kljuc and Sanski Most were dealt

24     with either fully or partially, and you say or rather what is stated here

25     is that more or less well known information was received, information

Page 20799

 1     already received by the public security stations.  And now what does it

 2     say here, on the road from Bjelajci to Manjaca, Pejo Grgic, son of Ivo,

 3     died on the way and his mortal remains were transferred further on.  He

 4     never got into the POW camp, did he?

 5        A.   Yes.  He died on the road.  He was transferred as is stated here.

 6     He was not registered in the camp.  Just like the persons we mentioned

 7     yesterday were not registered.  Those who died in front of the camp or in

 8     trucks, so the camp did not register persons who were outside its

 9     perimeter and that is the core of the matter.

10        Q.   Judging by the name, does this seem to be a Croat?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.  Pejo Grgic, son of Ivo, is a Croat, and I

12     think that there was Pejo's son or Ivo's brother who was also in the

13     camp.  At any rate, he is registered and was exchanged and went to a

14     third country.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1859, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we take at look at 5497.

20     That's the 65 ter number.  Let it not be broadcast.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we move into private session briefly.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 20800

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I did not have any

10     markings showing that it had already been admitted.  Perhaps I wouldn't

11     even spend any time on it.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You can see the date here.  You see who the signatory is.  And

14     what does it say?  Filipovic, Omer was interviewed further on, and what

15     they learned about is what happened in Kljuc and in the villages around

16     Kljuc; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.

18        Q.   Thank you.  At the time did you know where the front lines were?

19     Am I right if I say that the closest front lines, to Kljuc and Manjaca,

20     that is, were on the Una river over there, or on the other hand towards

21     Jajce; whereas, Kljuc, Sanski Most, and Prijedor are deep into our

22     territory?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.  That is the area of the 1st Krajina Corps

24     that I belonged to as well.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4564.  Can we have that now,

Page 20801

 1     please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   What is stated here is that important things were realised in

 4     connection with the attack against the military column, and it says new

 5     information was obtained as to who the participants were and it was

 6     confirmed that this attack had been planned in advance, and that

 7     Amir Avdic and others carried out that attack.  So there is no doubt

 8     about that.  All of these prisoners independently confirmed the

 9     information you already had or expanded on the information that their

10     interviewers already had; right?

11        A.   Precisely.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1860, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  1D4565, can we have

17     that, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is the following day and it says that Merhamet visited

20     again - the representatives of Merhamet, rather - and that they brought

21     in a certain amount of food, medicine, footwear, clothing, and so on, and

22     further on it says that they asked for a list of prisoners and then they

23     were told to communicate with the corps command, and then it says that

24     10 POWs were interviewed and previous knowledge was confirmed.  So when

25     they talked to this man Salif [phoen], they came to realise that

Page 20802

 1     Salihovic was commander, company commander in the village of Velagici.

 2     The company had three what?

 3        A.   Platoons.

 4        Q.   Platoons.  The first platoon commander was

 5     Momin Derisevic [phoen], the second platoon commander was Telfik [phoen]

 6     Draganovic, and the third platoon commander was Ramiz Tecevic [phoen].

 7     Do you remember that Velagici is close to Kljuc, deep into our territory,

 8     far away from any front line, and that there was fighting there and that

 9     even crimes were committed on both sides?

10        A.   Yes, I remember.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, what part of the three questions is

12     the answer yes to?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is what I'd like to say:  Is it correct that within such a

16     short span of time, Merhamet visited yet again and brought in 1.500

17     kilograms of food and medicine and clothing and so on?

18        A.   That is what the report says and, yes, it's true.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that it was established through

20     interviews with these prisoners that there was a company in Velagici

21     consisting of three platoons and the names of the platoon commanders are

22     listed here?

23        A.   That is what the report says and that is also correct.

24        Q.   Do you agree that this is the same village of Velagici where that

25     crime was committed by the Serbs, the one that was investigated and

Page 20803

 1     punished?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.  There's

 5     another report.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   25th June, it concerns an exchange of 61 prisoners of war, 16

 8     from Kljuc.  That means you released 16 prisoners on this day, over 60

 9     and under 18; correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Thank you.  There's also a reference to the death of a person

12     called Zlatan.  Is it one of the three natural deaths, deaths of natural

13     causes?

14        A.   Yes, that's one of the cases of death of natural causes.

15        Q.   I believe that's part of the same exhibit.  Yes, it is.  Can it

16     be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1861, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a query for Mr. Robinson.  Was this witness

20     proofed by the accused before he gives evidence?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I'm just wondering, speaking for myself, whether

23     there could be a more summary way of tendering these kinds of reports.

24     You could ask the witness to examine each of these documents and then

25     could put a more general question and then tender them altogether.  I

Page 20804

 1     wonder, there would be opposition to such treatment or tendering in such

 2     a manner.

 3             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, we have fairly consistently explored

 5     with the Defence various avenues for rendering the process more efficient

 6     and particularly in connection with admission of documents.  At the

 7     moment, I don't see a problem with that.  We're happy to look at it

 8     carefully, but I think it's something well worth considering and we take

 9     the -- we'll take the Trial Chamber's suggestion very seriously.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We would also join in that,

12     and I would say that the session with this witness was entirely devoted

13     to looking at documents, so we did our best on that score, but if there's

14     some way to expedite their admission, it would be a good idea.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I would be ready

17     now to give papers to the witness while we wait to see them in e-court so

18     that he can confirm the authenticity of the documents, whereas the

19     contents is self-explanatory.  If that saves us some time, I agree.  Did

20     you mean that the witness should look through the documents during the

21     break or now?

22             JUDGE KWON:  I meant during the proofing.  And then you can ask a

23     question that would cover all the documents, and if necessary you can

24     touch-up on specific details, if you so wish.  Please consult

25     Mr. Robinson as to the appropriate manner in which you tender your

Page 20805

 1     evidence.

 2             Let's proceed.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then I will try to

 4     speed it up until Mr. Robinson formulates his suggestion.  Can we see

 5     1D773.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I was told that it hasn't been yet

 7     released.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 832 then.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Would you please look at the fifth line from the top where it

11     says that through this work and interviews new persons have been

12     identified as involved.  So did this kind of work constitute a basis for

13     new arrests of perpetrators?

14        A.   When an interview yields information indicating that some

15     specific persons were involved or perpetrated crimes, of course their

16     arrest is the next step.  That's my answer.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think this has already been admitted as

20     Exhibit P3736 under seal.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Is 1D4566 also an

22     exhibit?  Can we see it.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree that this report says in the first paragraph that

25     indications have been confirmed and there is one wounded person who had

Page 20806

 1     been in treatment and then returned, and then another five or six

 2     seriously ill who could be neither useful nor a threat to anyone anymore,

 3     and a suggestion is made to release them from the camp?  This says also

 4     that you are trying to eliminate the mistreatment of prisoners and any

 5     other misconduct.  You also mention a brawl between prisoners, after

 6     which one of them was sent to hospital in Banja Luka.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted now

12     because all the requirements have been met and it hasn't been

13     compromised.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 20807

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  [Microphone not activated]

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also see -- can we see 65

22     ter 5517.  Since it's already an exhibit and I didn't know that, we won't

23     be wasting time on it.  Can we see 65 ter 836.  Let's move on, I'm sorry,

24     I'm sorry.  My list is not updated.  Can we see 65 ter 18845.  18845.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20808

 1        Q.   Please look at this.  Is this the usual accompanying document

 2     sent when people are sent for further processing to Manjaca?  It lists

 3     the charges against them.

 4        A.   Yes, this is the standard document but it's insufficient for

 5     further detention, so we asked the station to provide also Official Notes

 6     which are a longer document with more details about the acts charged.

 7     But, yes, this is a standard document that accompanied persons sent to

 8     us.

 9        Q.   Could you see the last paragraph, perhaps it would help you be

10     more specific.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.  In Serbian too.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   It says they are asking you to receive them and they will

14     continue the operative work themselves.  Was it standard procedure for

15     policemen from the police station concerned to come to the camp and

16     continue the investigation?

17        A.   Yes.  This makes things clearer.  Their men come to continue

18     their work and to draft new documents concerning persons investigated.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1863, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll skip everything that's already

23     been admitted.  65 ter 5566.  Although perhaps this is already an

24     exhibit.  No, it is an exhibit so we don't need it.  Can we look at 65

25     ter 17840.

Page 20809

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Please look at this telegram dated 19 August.  It says:

 3             "On the orders of the highest authorities of Republika Srpska,

 4     all public security stations that have transported prisoners of war to

 5     the Manjaca military camp shall immediately create a file on each

 6     prisoner ..." et cetera, et cetera.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 20810

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, would it assist you if we were to take

 9     an early break now, in terms of preparing your documents?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I was thinking about how we would

11     manage to do that.  I think without meeting the witness again it wouldn't

12     be possible but in the future we could possibly prepare some kind of 92

13     ter summary of our own and use it with the witness.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Shall we then continue?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Until 12.00.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  65 ter 5600, please.

18     5600.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   We are waiting for the Serbian version.  On the 22nd of August

21     there were daily activities, day in, day out.  On the 22nd of August, the

22     chief of the public security station Prijedor, Drljaca reports that on

23     the 20th of August they acted on the request and that they carried out a

24     selection of detainees; whereas, on the 20th of August, they replaced

25     those who could leave Manjaca in Trnopolje.  Do you agree that that was

Page 20811

 1     indeed the case and that was just one of the activities in the series of

 2     activities?

 3        A.   This is what I can see in the document.  I don't have any reason

 4     to doubt the veracity of the document.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1865, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  65 ter 5603, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Please pay attention.  On the 23rd of August, the following day

11     that is, Drljaca writes as follows:

12             "We are hereby informing you that the required documentation

13     concerning the prisoners of war who have been transferred from the

14     Omarska investigation centre to the Manjaca prisoner of war camp was

15     forwarded to the commander of the Manjaca prisoner of car camp today."

16             This means that there was intense activity.  Do you agree that

17     Omarska was considered an investigation centre rather than a prisoner of

18     war camp?

19        A.   I can't confirm that but I know that there were different names

20     used for Omarska and Keraterm such as collection centre or investigation

21     centre, but I don't know what those words mean, nor was I ever there.

22        Q.   However, you do agree that this is just part of the activities

23     that were launched by the administration of the detention camp and was

24     supported by the state leadership, the corps command, and Zupljanin?

25        A.   As far as this document is concerned, I understand it, and I

Page 20812

 1     believe that the papers did arrive after that date at Manjaca in

 2     reference to certain people.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1866, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let me just see how

 7     many more documents I have left on this subject.  There are just two

 8     more.  Let's just go through them quickly.  65 ter 5145, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you agree that was drafted on the 27th of August and it is

11     about the hand-over of documents, i.e., supplemented lists?  The

12     hand-over took place between various police officers?  The public

13     security station sent this to the military investigation organs at

14     Manjaca.  Is this a proper description of those organs?  Did military

15     investigation organs really exist at Manjaca?

16        A.   I believe that -- I believe that they used the term very

17     liberally.  It doesn't reflect the reality of the situation, if they had

18     in mind what existed up there.  Let's not go into private session.  I

19     believe that this is a rather arbitrary term.

20        Q.   However, they may have considered the processing of prisoners of

21     war investigation; right?

22        A.   I believe so.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 20813

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1867, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Another document on the subject,

 3     1D4567.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you remember the crisis in Vecici?  Unlike Siparoga [phoen],

 6     Vecici would not calm down.  They wanted their civilians to be released,

 7     they wanted to continue fighting, and now in December people from Vecici,

 8     11 people from Vecici were arrested and sent to the camp.  Do you

 9     remember that?

10        A.   I remember that.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1868, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now let's go back to the

15     conditions that prevailed in the camp.  The next document I would like to

16     call up is 1D4568.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt again, but

19     the witness answered "I remember that," but what's he answering "I

20     remember that" to?

21             "Vecici would not calm down.  They wanted their civilians to be

22     released, they wanted to be -- continued fighting, and now in December

23     people from Vecici, 11 people from Vecici were arrested and sent to the

24     camp."

25             JUDGE KWON:  Having heard the intervention by Ms. Sutherland, can

Page 20814

 1     you help us, Mr. Witness?  Would you like to see the document again?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need for that.  The

 3     document was not drafted by me.  It speaks about the arrest of 12 people

 4     and their bringing in from Vecici to the camp.  I remember their arrival

 5     and that's what I meant when I said that I remember.  As for Vecici,

 6     Vecici was one of the strongholds where people put up resistance and

 7     inflicted quite a lot of losses to us.  The villagers of that village, I

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted) went to negotiate and after the negotiations he was

15     ambushed and killed; right?

16        A.   Yes, that would be the essence of the matter.

17     Colonel Stevilovic, Inspector Markovic, and two chance passengers were in

18     the car, and just outside of Kotor Varos as you are looking down the road

19     from Vecici, they were ambushed by some barricades, they slowed down,

20     three of them were killed and one of them survived and he still lives

21     today.  He survived and was imprisoned.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this enough for the document to

23     be admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I take it, Ms. Sutherland is now satisfied.

25     Let's proceed with this document.

Page 20815

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page and

 2     then to the last page.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you explain for the benefit of the Trial Chamber whether this

 5     is true, that the detainees were examined?  The first medical examination

 6     was carried out on the 11th of June, and the 3.964th patient was examined

 7     on the 23rd of August 1992.  This means from the 11th of June to the 23rd

 8     of August there were 3.964 medical examinations carried out; would that

 9     be right?

10        A.   That's right.  This is a protocol which was maintained by the

11     medical bodies.  This describes the examinations of the detainees, they

12     were registered, and this log-book was set up at the moment when the camp

13     was set up and existed until its very end.  To this very day, you can

14     find this -- these log-books in our archives.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

17             JUDGE KWON:  This will be marked for identification.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1869, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to call up

20     1D4562.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Now we are dealing with the conditions that prevailed in the

23     Manjaca prisoner of -- prisoner of war camp, and we are dealing with the

24     reports on the conditions that prevailed in the camp.  Those are daily

25     and periodical reports.  This was drafted on the 18th of June, and again

Page 20816

 1     you can see that Merhamet arrived to visit.  I believe that this has been

 2     admitted, that we have seen it already.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, [Microphone not activated] today.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the following one,

 5     1D4565 has also been admitted.  Can you please confirm that?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D1861.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we look at 1D4569.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is this a record of the hand-over of medical equipment and

10     medicines that Merhamet brought to the camp on the 24th of June?

11     Everything is registered.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.

13     And then the third page.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let's see who received the medical supplies and medicines.  Could

16     you please look at the page.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the page be rotated.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Does it say here that the record of the medical supply was taken

20     by Dr. Mehmed Derviskadic and nurse Bozana Pavljanin.  Was Bozana

21     Pavljanin an employee and was Dr. Mehmed Derviskadic a detainee who

22     worked as a doctor in the camp?  Can you tell us that?

23        A.   Mehmed Derviskadic was a physician by profession, and he was used

24     up there as a general practitioner in the camp.  There was also Enes

25     Sabanovic who was a physician.  They were both professionals.  They had

Page 20817

 1     good bedside manners, they were very humane, and they applied everything

 2     that they had learned at medical school and when they took the

 3     hypocrit's [as interpreted] oath.  Nurse Bozana Pavljanin was up there at

 4     the time.  The camp administration changed the -- there was also

 5     Aleksandra Bijelic who replaced Bozana Pavljanin from time to time.  In

 6     any case the two doctors were there throughout the existence of the camp.

 7        Q.   Since the other participants in this trial don't know much about

 8     the names in the former Yugoslavia, can you confirm that the two

 9     physicians were Muslims?

10        A.   The two physicians were detainees of Muslim ethnicity.  In the

11     text I can see the name Aleksic.  If it means anything -- or rather in

12     the transcript, I can see the name "Aleksic" but it was

13     Aleksandra Bijelic.  I don't know if that means anything.

14        Q.   In the transcript it says that Aleksandra Bijelic would replace

15     Bozana Pavljanin from time to time; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  This would be admitted as Exhibit D1870.  And we'll

19     take a break now for half an hour and resume at half past 12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED:  [In English] Thank you, Your Excellency.

24             [Interpretation] May I have 1D45775 [as interpreted] briefly, and

25     we can add it to the document that has already been admitted.

Page 20818

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat the number,

 2     please.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4575.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Witness, that this is a sequel to that protocol

 6     of systematic health examinations in Manjaca?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Does this include each and every diagnosis, and did those two

10     Muslim doctors who were prisoners sign this document?  You can see that,

11     can you not?

12        A.   Yes, that's right.  This is a continuation.  Lest there be any

13     confusion regarding the number 8.000 something, some prisoners reported

14     for medical examinations several times whereas others never asked for a

15     medical examination.  So this is the number of medical examinations that

16     were carried out by the doctor, and the signatures are basically the

17     signatures of the two doctors.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page.  Can we

20     have a look at the last number.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So what is written here is 8064 -- no, 34.  That's the last

23     digit; right?  You would be able to see it if we could zoom in.  8.033

24     and 8.034.  That's right.  So there were 8.034 medical examinations, and

25     as you said a few moment ago, some persons were examined several times;

Page 20819

 1     right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, D869 as MFI'd, should

 5     this be added to that, or should a new number be assigned altogether?

 6     There is a translation.  Actually, we don't need an MFI, we have a

 7     translation.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think I followed.  MFI D869.

 9             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic put to the witness an

11     earlier protocol and because that didn't have an English translation that

12     was MFI'd, and Mr. Karadzic wants to know whether we can -- whether he

13     can add this to that exhibit or this gets a new exhibit number and it

14     doesn't --

15             JUDGE KWON:  I take it this is a separate document?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, it is, and I think it should have a

17     separate exhibit number.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll give a new number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1871, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have a look at

21     65 ter 5612.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Please focus your attention on this.  Do you agree that this is a

24     report on a discussion with the ICRC, that is to say between the

25     representatives of the ICRC and the representatives of the 1st Krajina

Page 20820

 1     Corps command?  Mr. Kalinic was there, he was health minister of the

 2     government Republika Srpska, then the prime minister of the autonomous

 3     Republic of Krajina, Erceg.  Please take a look at this document.  Then

 4     it says here that Mr. Germont insisted on the unambiguous implementation

 5     of the London agreement, and then it says what was discussed, and the

 6     Serbs asked for lists of detained Serbs in Tomislavgrad, Bugojno,

 7     et cetera.  Can you see this document?  And also what was discussed then

 8     was the disbanding of Manjaca, Trnopolje, and this is what was agreed

 9     upon and then that is actually what is written there, what was agreed

10     upon.  Actually, can we scroll down on the English side a bit.

11        A.   Yes, I see that.  Throughout the existence of the camp for months

12     there was mention of a disbanding of the camp in exchange of all for all.

13     I remember this and that would be it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   What does this say in paragraphs 5 and 6, that Kalinic, Minister

18     Kalinic submitted a list of prisoners in the camp and number 6 says:

19             "During the day, at his explicit wish, the chief monitor of

20     implementation of the London Conference visited the Manjaca prisoner of

21     war camp accompanied by Colonel Milutin Vukelic" who signed this.

22             And then on the next page it says that a person was seriously

23     wounded by his father before the war operations started and you took care

24     of this person; right?  Actually, it's the medical service that took care

25     of this person; right?

Page 20821

 1        A.   That's right.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1872.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  65 ter 5625.  Could we

 6     please have a look at that.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You mentioned the work conducted by the prisoners and you

 9     mentioned today that some of them volunteered.  Did they like going out?

10     Did they volunteer?  Did they realise that they would get extra benefits

11     on account of that?

12        A.   Yes, prisoners were used for farm work basically, digging

13     potatoes, chopping firewood, actually, for heating the camps so for

14     themselves.  (redacted)

15     because there was no central heating.  When people were assigned to leave

16     camp in order to work, it was basically done by seeing who would

17     volunteer.  Usually, many more people would volunteer than were actually

18     needed.  Actually, being in confined quarters all day was not pleasant

19     and people were relatively young and healthy and they wanted to get out.

20     So basically it was people who volunteered.

21        Q.   Thank you.  It says here that Colonel Vukelic says that this is

22     in accordance with the Geneva Conventions because what they would be

23     doing has nothing to do with combat whatsoever; right?  The second

24     paragraph, not for purposes of war and the conduct of combat operations.

25     You see what it says here:

Page 20822

 1             "The use of prisoners of war does not run counter to the

 2     provisions," et cetera?

 3        A.   I'm just waiting for the transcript to finish.  That's why I'm

 4     waiting.  Of course I have an answer.  Vukelic was assistant commander

 5     for moral guidance in the corps, and he's the one who would usually give

 6     his approval for this kind of thing.  It would seem that somebody else

 7     had asked for this approval to have these persons used for some physical

 8     labour and then Vukelic approved of it.  He would sign this kind of

 9     document.  That is the way things worked.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1873, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have 1D4576.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Please take a look at this.  It's a report of the Red Cross.

16     They are saying that in accordance with the agreement reached on the

17     6th of June, 1992, that was signed by Mr. Kalinic on my behalf, so

18     delegates of the Red Cross were allowed access to POWs in Manjaca for the

19     seventh time already.  And it says here the ICRC avails itself of this

20     opportunity to extend their thanks for the full co-operation extended to

21     them during their visit.  Is that what they said to you?  Did they say

22     when they saw you how grateful they were for this co-operation?

23        A.   Yes, they came six times by this point in time.  Every time -- or

24     actually, not exactly every time.  They wrote these work reports and

25     sometimes they would submit copies even to us, to the corps command,

Page 20823

 1     probably more often.  And they described the situation, as they say here,

 2     sometimes as a matter of courtesy and sometimes they extended their

 3     sincere thanks for this co-operation and so on.  I usually did not attend

 4     these meetings.  For the most part, was it the camp commander who would

 5     receive representatives of the International Red Cross Committee.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Please focus on paragraph 2.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we please have the

 8     appropriate page in English.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   The next one where it says they would be informed about transfers

11     and so and so forth.  And then it says:

12             "The ICRC welcomed this move as a confirmation of future

13     readiness by top authorities in Banja Luka and the camp administration in

14     Manjaca to fully abide by the 3rd and 4th Geneva Conventions."

15             Is this an indication of the readiness of the authorities in

16     Banja Luka because the AR Krajina was very strong at that point in time

17     and also because Krajina had not had any contacts with Pale -- rather,

18     there weren't any good communications, there weren't any proper

19     communications running at the time?

20        A.   This happened precisely at the time when there was this

21     interruption in our communications, rather the corridor was sealed off so

22     decisions had to be made at these local levels; in this case, at corps

23     level.  Also the local authorities had to make decisions.  There were

24     some telephone communications, but I cannot say anything about that.  So

25     what is written here is reality as it was at the time.

Page 20824

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page, please.

 3     Number 7 in paragraph 7, so we need page 7 in the English original as

 4     well.  Then it's the penultimate page in English, actually.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you agree that what is stated here, that 44 sick prisoners

 7     were evacuated from the Manjaca camp to Banja Luka airport under ICRC

 8     supervision, and then it says the ICRC would like to thank

 9     Commander Popovic and his associates for their excellent co-operation and

10     help during the whole operation.  And then further on it says -- it says

11     that the situation has been stabilised to a certain extent and that

12     Dr. Emir Kapitanovic [phoen], one of the physicians involved in the

13     examinations, was released on the 16th of September, and then there are

14     other references to health related needs.  Does this correspond to things

15     as they actually were?

16        A.   Yes, this corresponds to the truth.  Or rather, what happened at

17     the time.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1874, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then may I ask for your approval --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would ask for a redaction on page

25     57, line 13 at least on my LiveNote.  There's a few words after the word

Page 20825

 1     "themselves."

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 3             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a similar document.  1D4577.

 5     If the witness could look at it so we don't have to offer it as a bar

 6     table motion.  Another visit and another extension of thanks.  1D4577.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Another report.  It says again that the visits are made based on

 9     the agreement of 6 June signed by Dr. Kalinic in my name.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 6.  Or rather, the

11     last page.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Would you agree that they are thanking the commander and the

14     military administration for their co-operation, and they say it's agreed

15     that the visits would be made twice a month in future.  And then we see a

16     table of all that the ICRC had brought, food, shoes, et cetera.  Is this

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes, this is authentic and it is consistent with the truth.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1875, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4578 is the next document I would

24     like to look at dated 18 November, another report from the ICRC, just the

25     first and the last pages.

Page 20826

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for the second page,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   This is a report on the visit from the 5th to the 18th November,

 6     so they stayed for 13 days on this occasion; right?  Look at this, the

 7     highlighted passage:  Commander Popovic described his difficulties.  One

 8     of his men died at Manjaca because he could not be transported to the

 9     hospital on time.  Colonel Djikic, chief of the medical unit, should, in

10     co-operation with the military command in Banja Luka, be contacted in

11     order to find solutions.  There's also a shortage of fuel.  Winter is

12     approaching fast.  Do you know about this case when one employee died

13     because he could not be taken to hospital on time?

14        A.   Yes, these problems described by Popovic were real problems,

15     existential problems, and that's why he was trying, also through the

16     ICRC, to get some assistance, and that death really happened.  I wasn't

17     there but it was an NCO serving in the logistics.  He had a stroke or

18     perhaps a heart attack, and if he could have been transported to the

19     hospital on time, maybe he would have lived.  That's true.

20        Q.   The last page refers to the evacuation of 700 prisoners, food

21     supplies would be adjusted.  There's a reference to the tonnes of food

22     handed over.  That's the last page.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then I would kindly ask that

24     this be admitted.  Here we have a list of tonnes provided, and it says

25     after the evacuation of 700 prisoners the quantity of food will be

Page 20827

 1     provided accordingly.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D1876.

 3             Mr. Karadzic, you will have about less than 15 minutes to

 4     conclude your cross-examination.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well then.  I have to move to

 6     another subject.  And with your leave, 1D4579 briefly, please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Daily report at the time of the visit by Mr. Viesel.  Do you

 9     recall that Mr. Viesel was free to speak to anyone he wished in the

10     absence of the guards and that he could stay as long as he wished?  And

11     he did stay as long as he wanted to.  He wanted to tour one of the

12     facilities and he did.  It was decided that it would be the third

13     pavilion and that's the one he toured.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   Yes, he was accommodated and he was free to contact the prisoners

15     that he wished to interview and speak to.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Does Mr. Karadzic have the complete document?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately no, I don't have the

19     page with the signature.  Page 2.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1877, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20828

 1        Q.   Because my time is running out witness, I would appreciate it if

 2     you could help me to present to the Chamber one dramatic event in

 3     September 1993 in Banja Luka.  (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        A.   Of course I remember because in that mutiny I was one of the

10     casualties that was on the 9th or the 10th of September, 1993.  We called

11     it Operation September 93 when parts of certain units abandoned the front

12     line and came to Banja Luka to deal with the situation.  Unfortunately,

13     those events were never fully investigated.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, shall we delete the last part from

15     line 24?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, sorry, could we go into private session,

19     please.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 20829

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Since this is in the

17     transcript that's been admitted, I'd like to show you a document

18     65 ter 1763 to see whether this report on page 4 of this document is

19     consistent with your vision, your opinion of that crisis.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you remember it was simultaneous with the attack of the

22     Croatian army against the Medak pocket which was a UNPA?

23        A.   I have to tell you that the attack on the Medak pocket was

24     overshadowed by these events that affected me and many other people.  So

25     I can't say it happened exactly at the same time but, yes, to some extent

Page 20830

 1     it did.  I don't know to what extent it was deliberate.

 2        Q.   On the previous page it says "report on the events in Banja Luka

 3     from 11 to 19th September -- 10 to 19 September."  Let's find the line

 4     which begins with 10 September.

 5             "In the morning of 10 September, individuals wearing uniforms

 6     occupied the main cross-roads..."

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters have lost the page now.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Why did we change the English page?  Probably next

 9     page.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  From the top.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   "In the morning of 10 September ..."  Please read the Serbian

13     version.  Do you need it enlarged?

14        A.   I believe we have now the wrong page in Serbian too.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we should go one page back, to

16     the previous one.  No, the first thing that was shown, the top beginning

17     with 10 September.  This is not it.  Page 4.  This is it.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Is it true that they did all this, they arrested everyone from

20     the building of the corps command, disarmed them, occupied the Security

21     Services Centre, took into custody the president of the municipality, the

22     president of the SDS, other public officials, tried to take over the TV

23     relay at Kozara, and the Crisis Staff of the 1st Krajina Corps appeared

24     in public and soon afterwards changed its name to the Crisis Staff of the

25     Army of Republika Srpska, which had its own seal.  It was named the

Page 20831

 1     Operation September 93.  Do you agree it was a major crisis that

 2     threatened us with complete destruction?

 3        A.   I remember this.  Everything happened as described here, and I

 4     was wondering to myself whether at this time of major crisis we really

 5     needed the added complication of internal conflicts within the army or

 6     the state leadership.  Yes, it's exactly as written here.

 7        Q.   Could you please look at this passage:

 8             "Operation September 93 ended on 17 September..."

 9             It also says that I, myself, led the action to put an end to this

10     along with the highest representatives of the army, the Ministry of the

11     Interior, the national security.

12        A.   That's correct.  But I have to stress that Banja Luka was blocked

13     at the time and General Mladic was the first to come in.  I don't know

14     about your activities, but I was there very close to General Mladic when

15     he managed to get the men to stop all that and go back to their combat

16     assignments.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document 17763 be

18     admitted.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1878, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 65 ter

22     13352.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   While we are waiting, do you agree that this called for my

25     engagement in those military matters in view of the danger that

Page 20832

 1     threatened to escalate?

 2        A.   I agree, Mr. Karadzic.  I know that you were at the forward

 3     command post in Prnjavor, that was a forward command post of the

 4     1st Krajina Corps.  I know that you came to a facility near Banja Luka

 5     and that you tried to deal with the situation.  I don't remember what

 6     facility that was.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Please pay attention to my order to set up the staff.

 8     I say here that I will personally command the staff and the staff will

 9     comprise of the following:  Myself, Milovanovic [as interpreted], Mladic,

10     all the way up to Zupljanin, and then I also ordered to raise combat

11     capabilities of police and military units.  I ordered that I would be the

12     only one to be able to order movements, that reports should be sent, and

13     so on and so forth.  Do you agree that that was necessary in order for

14     the crisis to be brought to an end peacefully without any bloodshed?

15        A.   Yes.  Fortunately enough, no blood was shed.  If blood had been

16     shed, there would be no end to the whole crisis.  Obviously you got

17     involved to deal with the situation and the situation was dealt with as

18     it was luckily enough.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that ever again, save for those seven

20     or ten days, I took it upon myself to be in command at the tactical and

21     operative level?  Was that the one and only time, according to what you

22     know, that I got involved in command duties?

23        A.   I can't remember that that was the one and only time that that

24     happened, but in my view it was only logical that the superior person

25     which is the supreme commander, if there was a problem or an incident in

Page 20833

 1     lower units, could jump in and deal with the situation, so I don't deem

 2     this to have been a big mistake, but that's just me.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit at Exhibit D1879.  And,

 6     Mr. Karadzic, it's time for you to wrap up.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I note that there's two documents

 8     that are contained in the B/C/S version that was uploaded in e-court.

 9     The document that's been shown to the witness, but there's also on page 2

10     and 3 in e-court another document which a different date on it, so I

11     suggest that only this first page is tendered -- is admitted into

12     evidence.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.  We'll do that.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will now show you 65 ter 32300.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   The date of the document is 15 September 1993.  15 September

17     1993.  Could you please look at the document and tell me whether you

18     agree that it says here that there was a conversation between myself and

19     General Milovanovic.  I was probably in Geneva attending negotiations.

20     There was a reference to here that a similar thing happened on the 14th

21     of September at Pale.  That soldiers were shooting, that they were saying

22     this is Banja Luka, and so on and so forth.  Do you agree that that event

23     indicated that the flame of rebellion could spread?

24        A.   I can't answer positively to your question because I'm not

25     familiar with the event.  I'm also not familiar with the document so I

Page 20834

 1     can't say yes to your question.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether if this witness is a proper

 4     witness to deal with that matter.  It's time for you to conclude.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Witness, instead of putting a question to you, I would like to

 8     express my gratitude to you for having been very strict and very

 9     consistent in your activities.  You should be proud of that but the

10     Republika Srpska should also be proud of what you did.  Did you have a

11     feeling at the time that your attitude which was precise, strict, and

12     consistent was in favour of the Republika Srpska and that that was in

13     keeping with the policies of the Republika Srpska?

14        A.   I didn't do anything for my own sake.  I did everything for the

15     people, for the Republika Srpska.  If a similar situation arose again, I

16     believe that I would -- did everything in the same way.  I don't think I

17     was particularly heroic in what I did.  I don't think that other people

18     wouldn't do the same.  But let me tell you this:  Whatever I learned

19     throughout life and at school, I tried to apply all of my knowledge in

20     such specific circumstances.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have a few more

22     documents left, but I will try to tender them in a different way.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Just one more question, did you suffer any pressure?  Was any

25     pressure put to you on the part of the state leadership or the military

Page 20835

 1     leadership?  Did anybody try to coerce you into changing your position

 2     and actions?

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             Can this be redacted, please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this brings my

 8     cross-examination to an end.  Thank you, sir.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             Yes, Ms. Sutherland, do you have any re-examination?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Then, sir, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf

13     of my colleagues and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for your

14     coming to The Hague.  Now you are free to go.  Please have a safe journey

15     back home, but please wait until we draw the curtain.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a short break for five minutes?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I wonder whether you

20     would reconsider your decision concerning Mr. Krejic interview given that

21     the net loss to the Tribunal would be about 26 minutes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can finish the examination-in-chief.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour --

24             MR. ROBINSON:  But then we can't interview him because he would

25     have started his testimony.

Page 20836

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We gave a ruling that --

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  I know.  I'm asking you to reconsider that ruling

 3     given that you now know it's 26 minutes that's involved.  That's not a

 4     very big loss of time, a lot less than what we may have thought when you

 5     made the ruling.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let me consult my colleagues.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just leave it.  In the peculiar circumstances of

 9     this case at the moment, the Chamber agrees to adjourn for today.

10             We'll rise and tomorrow 9.00.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.22 p.m.

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

13                           November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.