Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21255

 1                           Friday, 11 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Good morning, everyone.  We continue to sit

 7     under the provisions of section 15 bis in the absence of Judge Kwon.  A

 8     moment of indulgence, please from the witness.  The just a few matters to

 9     deal with as far as the Prosecution is concerned.  I talk to you,

10     Mr. Tieger, but I don't think it's going to be for you to actually

11     resolve these issues.  There's some illegible documents, 65 ter number

12     09163 and 16923 are partially illegible in their English original

13     version.  Can you organise the upload of clearer versions, please.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I will, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  There's a video, 65 ter 40108 is not been

16     uploaded into e-court.  Perhaps the Prosecution could ensure that a --

17     that is corrected.  And there's been a wrong video provided to the

18     Chamber although the 92 ter notification tells us that the Prosecution is

19     tendering 65 ter 40387, the CD provided in the notifications appendix

20     bears 65 ter number 40287.  Perhaps that could be amended as well.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you very much.

23             Dr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellency.

25     Good morning to all.  Good morning, Dr. Kirudja.

Page 21256

 1             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Dr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I wish to ask you

 3     something.  I'm always prepared to work as hard as necessary, especially

 4     to make things easier for our witness, however, I wanted to ask you

 5     whether it would be possible for us not to work on the 21st of November

 6     or to work on the Friday after the 21st of November, because this is a

 7     major Christian holiday that my family has been celebrating for the past

 8     800 years, the St. Archangel Michael.  If that would be possible, I would

 9     kindly ask you to rule on that in that way.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  So what you are asking is that we don't sit on

11     the 21st but we do sit on the 25th; is that correct?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If necessary to make up for that

13     time, we can work on the 25th, yes.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  I can imagine that the schedule having been set

15     out for some time that other things may be, as it were, organised already

16     by individuals concerned for the 25th.  But the Chamber will consider

17     your request in good time.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you,

19     Your Excellency.

20                           WITNESS:  CHARLES KIRUDJA [Resumed]

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, at the very outset I wanted to check what I'm going

23     to say right now is all right with you, namely different documents of a

24     political nature or other documents from that time, once they get into

25     the courtroom with regard to this criminal matter, legal criminal matter,

Page 21257

 1     when they move into a courtroom from the political arena, they call for

 2     making meanings more defined and focusing on definitions of various

 3     kinds, so would you please understand that, and please do not feel that

 4     you are personally being attacked or that the UN is being attacked, if I

 5     ask where things come from and if I ask for them to be very precisely

 6     defined.  Is that all right with you?

 7        A.   Your Honour, I would like to say something that is on the record

 8     from all the previous six trials with regard both to the testimony that

 9     is called my witness statement and my presence.  The entire document,

10     which in the narrative that you have now are copiously documented by

11     references in footnotes refer to documents which are in nature

12     United Nations documents.  The Prosecutor was allowed access, not by me,

13     but by the United Nations, in the archives of the United Nations.  They

14     selected all of those documents for the purposes they wanted in this

15     trial.

16             Secondly, they obtained clearance from the United Nations to

17     table these documents and because by the selections they made those

18     documents were authored by me, my presence was to authenticate and

19     validate those documents.  The narrative that is being called the

20     "amalgamation" is an accurate narrative with regard to those documents.

21             And finally, Your Honour, the time those documents were prepared

22     as indicated in all the previous trials, was not really for the court.

23     They were intended for reporting up the UN chain.  Therefore, they have

24     to be taken in the context in which they were written.  I hope I've

25     clarified that point.

Page 21258

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, thank you, Dr. Kirudja.  That's a useful

 2     and, if I may say so, I suspect understood clarification as far as

 3     Dr. Karadzic is concerned, certainly as far as the Chamber is concerned.

 4     No doubt, he will proceed to cross-examine you upon that basis.  If there

 5     are any difficulties that arise where you feel that you are in

 6     professional difficulties as a result of your activities and duties in

 7     respect to the UN, then you will need to tell us so we can determine

 8     accordingly.

 9             THE WITNESS:  I thank you.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Dr. Kirudja.  Thank you

12     for that.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   First, I would like it to deal with the most sensitive topic and

15     that the question of the fate of civilians in Bosnia Krajina, or rather,

16     the municipalities that you dealt with, especially Bosanski Novi,

17     et cetera.  In paragraph 41 of your amalgamated statement -- Doctor, do

18     you need to have that before you, the statement itself?  Maybe it would

19     be better if you had a hard copy.

20        A.   If it's okay with you, and if it's okay with the Court, if he

21     refers to a paragraph like, say, paragraph 41, which he has just referred

22     to, perhaps it might be sufficient just to flash it on the monitor.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  We attempt to restrict what comes on to the

24     monitor and to which those matters which are germane to the question, so

25     we leave it to the staff to use their expertise in this.  Thank you.

Page 21259

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I can provide Mr. -- Dr. Kirudja

 2     with a hard copy of his amalgamated witness statement if he wants to have

 3     them.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  It may well be of continuing help throughout the

 5     proceedings.  Unless there are any objections from the Defence, which I

 6     doubt in the circumstances, please, that's very useful.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 8        Q.   May I now ask you to focus your attention on paragraph 41 where

 9     you described how the mayor of Dvor informed you about the wishes of the

10     mayor of Bosanski Novi who confirmed to him that Muslims, or rather,

11     people, who wished to leave Bosanski Novi wished to do so voluntarily,

12     and we see the entire paragraph now, don't we?

13             Did they inform you that before that the Serb authorities of the

14     Bosnian Krajina, or rather, these municipalities, made an offer to the

15     effect that civilians be moved in depth into Republika Srpska out of the

16     areas close to combat zones to Doboj and elsewhere, whereas the Muslim

17     negotiators refused all of that, they just asked to go to Croatia and

18     Europe?

19        A.   The paragraph that Dr. Karadzic draws my attention to, paragraph

20     41, has a straightforward understanding of what it says, that, one, the

21     mayor of Dvor -- and for the Court's understanding, Dvor is a

22     municipality across the river from Bosnia, and it fell into one of those

23     municipalities that were in Sector North in the jurisdiction of

24     United Nations as a protected area and in a territory recognised as part

25     of Croatia.  That's Dvor.  The mayor being discussed, Pasic, is a mayor

Page 21260

 1     of Bosanski Novi across the river into Bosnia.

 2             The paragraph says and summarises a sequence of events that

 3     result into the conclusion in the paragraph that the mayor of Dvor,

 4     speaking on behalf of the mayor of Bosanski Novi, asks that refugees

 5     coming from Bosanski Novi transition into the UNPA and should be allowed

 6     to get out and they were doing so voluntarily.  The paragraph -- the word

 7     is put in quotes.

 8             Now, Dr. Karadzic is talking about whether they informed me

 9     something else.  No, they informed me exactly what the paragraph is

10     saying.  Nothing more, nothing less.

11        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kirudja.  In paragraph 43, you describe what

12     happened.  You say that you noticed that the mayor and his associates

13     sounded very authentic when speaking of the aspirations of the Serbs and

14     then you asked them, how they, as Serbs, could speak with assurance about

15     the aspirations of Muslims without a single Muslim representative being

16     present.  Then they replied -- actually, we all see this paragraph, don't

17     we?  That they can arrange for you to meet with Muslim representatives.

18             Further down, you say that they called Pasic, the mayor of

19     Bosanski Novi, and that Pasic was prepared to talk to you but you

20     declined to speak with him but they still encouraged you to establish

21     contact with Pasic.  After all, would it not have been a good idea for

22     you to have spoken to the mayor of Bosanski Novi?  Would that have been

23     useful for you to see exactly what kind of information he had?

24        A.   Thank you, Dr. Karadzic.  It is a summary, that paragraph, of

25     events that transpired.  The decline to speak to Mayor Pasic, if you look

Page 21261

 1     carefully, Dr. Karadzic, is to speak to him on the telephone.  Actually,

 2     Mayor Borojevic was holding the telephone and saying Mayor Pasic is on

 3     line, could you please speak to him.

 4             Now, I had just arrived in the office of Mayor Borojevic to

 5     discuss what I had considered normal United Nations peacekeeping matters

 6     inside the UNPA.  I'm being given a telephone to speak to a mayor outside

 7     the jurisdiction of the United Nations mission about a matter that

 8     sounded to me, while very interesting but urgent but difficult to deal

 9     with, so the decline was not a matter that I would want to discuss on the

10     telephone and therefore I declined to speak.  Not because, as the

11     question posed by Dr. Karadzic may imply that I didn't want to speak to

12     him.  Actually, I considered the matter quite serious, and I declined to

13     deal with it that way.  But the paragraph ends by noting we soon later,

14     we met with Pasic.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree, Dr. Kirudja, that Mayor Pasic had many

16     reasons to be anxious in view of the concentration of civilians, Muslim

17     civilians, and the presence of elements that were out of control,

18     paramilitary groups, et cetera, and he had reasons for fearing that

19     something might happen to him?  Does that sound reasonable to you?

20        A.   If you are speaking chronologically, at that point when I got

21     notice that he would want to speak to me, I didn't have all the details

22     of what might be behind the request to speak.  Therefore, I couldn't

23     agree or disagree with Dr. Karadzic that that was what was motivating

24     him.  It took me days and weeks to interrogate the issue, and as the

25     narrative told several paragraphs after the one he has drawn our

Page 21262

 1     attention to indicates, we came to some conclusions about what was going

 2     on.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right if I believe that before you assumed your

 4     duties in the Balkans, or rather, the UNPAs, you were briefed about the

 5     country that you were going to and the situation that you would find

 6     there?

 7        A.   Yes, it is reasonable to assume that we did get briefs of the

 8     country that we -- the mission was being said to operate in.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do forgive me for asking this, however, on the basis

10     of our experience, it seems that many people came with certain

11     prejudices, preformed views, that we had to clarify over time.  During

12     these briefings, did you take a particular position in terms of what was

13     going on in Bosnia?

14        A.   I would like to clarify for the Court.  While understanding the

15     intention of the question and my mission that we did get briefing, I

16     would like to clarify to the Court what kind of briefings we got.

17             The briefings, as always, in the United Nations, is about the

18     nature of the mission, the Security Council document which enabled the

19     mission, you are supposed to be familiar with what those documents say.

20     Those documents are limited in purpose and content to what the mission is

21     about.  If Dr. Karadzic is thinking of a broader context than that, then

22     of course not.  The UN will not brief beyond its own purposes and its own

23     intentions.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Then I may assume that you had not known, for

25     instance, that the Muslim side in Bosnia-Herzegovina, already in June

Page 21263

 1     1991, established its own ethnic council for national security, and a

 2     subcommittee for the Una region that bordered with your area.  The Una

 3     zone would imply that it's around the Una river.  Did you know that they

 4     started doing that already in spring 1991?

 5        A.   No, Dr. Karadzic, that specific detail wouldn't have been known

 6     to me before coming into the area.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you observed that preparations and

 8     war aid was underway from the Muslims who lived throughout Europe, they

 9     were getting together and they were preparing equipment and personnel for

10     helping.  You refer to that in paragraph 25 of your statement.  Could you

11     please focus on that now.  You were informed that about 1.600 people

12     wanted to return to Velika Kladusa, Bosanska Krupa and Otoka.  Could you

13     please take a look at that document.  Then you say that they had been

14     gathered at the stadium of a particular football club?

15             Do you remember having observed that?  Do you know that that was

16     quite a strong brigade, rather two light brigades given our situation

17     that wanted to go back to Bosnia to fight?

18        A.   Your Honour, two elements I pick up from the long comment from

19     Dr. Karadzic.  One, the word "observed preparations" and "war aid

20     underway from the Muslims who lived throughout Europe."  Obviously I

21     didn't observe that, since it was, if I understand the comment correctly,

22     something happening before I arrived.  If that's the question, then

23     obviously I didn't observe it.

24             Second, I'm drawn to the content of paragraph 25.  The paragraph

25     has moved both in time and place, the content of the paragraph, rather.

Page 21264

 1     They are talking about 1600 outside Karlovac, nowhere near Bosanski Novi.

 2     We are talking about Karlovac.  The time is 1992, the earlier comment is

 3     talking about previous events.  If I understand Dr. Karadzic correctly,

 4     he is linking them this way.  The people who are in the Ilovac football

 5     field in Karlovac wanted to return into the area which Dr. Karadzic is

 6     referring our attention to, yes, I observed that because I went to see

 7     them and to talk to them.

 8             Secondly, Dr. Karadzic is correct, I was told, not by the people

 9     themselves, but by the general who commanded the 10th Corps, when I

10     relayed their requests to him, he said, no, we are not going to allow

11     them to cross over the UNPA from Karlovac into Bosnia because they are

12     trained fighters and we won't allow them.  Then to that extent I think

13     the statement is correct.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You have just presented the content of paragraph 26,

15     so I'm not going to dwell on it.  Did you know that on that very same

16     day, the 29th of April, the day that you referred to in paragraph 26,

17     that purchases were being made through the Croatian ministry but for the

18     Muslim side, actually, ministries, Croatian ministries of defence, the

19     interior and so on and other organisations in Zagreb.

20             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] To make things easier for you, let

21     us have a look at D401.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   This is a document coming from the Islamic Association of Croatia

24     and Slovenia and it talks about receipt of money for the purchase of

25     weapons to be dispatched to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 21265

 1        A.   Is there a question?

 2        Q.   Yes, Dr. Kirudja, I was going to ask you whether you knew what

 3     the links between these organisations, Islamic organisations, throughout

 4     Europe that were led by Dr. Fatih Ali Hasanein, and the other

 5     organisations in the arming of people for the needs of the Bosnian war?

 6        A.   No, I didn't know their links.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that this could reach Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina from Croatia either through the UNPA zones or across the Sava

 9     river or from the other side, from the Adriatic coast?

10        A.   If the question is was there a possibility that could happen, as

11     opposed to did that, of course, I had to admit there is a possibility.

12     Things could move that way.  Not that I knew they were moving, but I

13     would admit there were possibilities.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Would it have been useful for your reports had we,

15     for instance, informed you of this on time?  Would that have been useful

16     in order to get the full picture?

17        A.   I don't know whether I ask questions or respond to them.  My

18     answer to this would have been a question.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I think if you need to ask a question to

20     clarify the question, although it's not something that we encourage, if

21     it means that you are going to be able to answer the question more

22     efficiently, I think perhaps you ought to do so.

23             THE WITNESS:  I'm reading the question as Dr. Karadzic posing the

24     hypothetical question that they would have reported to us.  They never

25     reported to us, nor did they actually report to us, so would that have

Page 21266

 1     been a difference?  That's the question I'll ask.  What difference it

 2     would have made if they reported to us.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Cutting through it, I suppose, Dr. Karadzic,

 4     what you mean is that would the UN have been assisted by that knowledge

 5     in having a broader understanding of the picture had you made such

 6     reports.  Was that what you were getting at?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely so, Your Excellency.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, it is well known, would you agree, that the Serb

10     side was insufficiently savvy, both in informing the media and the UN,

11     and this was precisely the gist of my question and it was what

12     Judge Morrison formulated so well?

13        A.   I thank you for that clarification, Dr. Karadzic, and my comment

14     on it was that I wouldn't quite characterise the Serb as "insufficiently

15     savvy."  My experience was in the areas where they controlled or they

16     were the authorities in control of life in that area, specifically say

17     the UNPA, they were actually in a position to select what they wanted us

18     to know and what they didn't want us to know.  Not that they were

19     insufficiently savvy.

20        Q.   Could you tell us whether timely information on these operations

21     to arm the Bosnian Muslims through various religious organisations at the

22     time of the embargo and the sanctions, would that have been of use to the

23     UN as information?

24        A.   I'm confused about the issue of embargo and sanctions.  I'm not

25     aware how that issue played out in the situation.  Could you clarify a

Page 21267

 1     little bit more, Dr. Karadzic.

 2        Q.   Well, if you recall, in 1991 already there was a ban on the

 3     imports of any kind of war material and weapons into any of the republics

 4     of the former Yugoslavia.  Now, do you recall that this was a step taken

 5     by the UN and published in the resolution?

 6        A.   I would say I am aware of the events that went one year or so

 7     before the mission was established.  Yes, I am aware.

 8        Q.   So in the midst of this embargo on the imports of weapons, what

 9     I'm trying to say is that many international organisations funneled huge

10     quantities of weapons, mainly via Croatia and Slovenia, weapons meant for

11     arming the Muslim side in Bosnia and Herzegovina, were you aware of that?

12     And in that context, would it have been useful for the UN to have timely

13     information on what was going on?

14        A.   Your Honour, that question makes me want to clarify to the Court

15     some of the assumptions we were given to understand about the context of

16     the mission, specifically when this mission called UNPROFOR was set up by

17     the United Nations, it was set up in rather unusual experiment if I might

18     use that word, though the UN will cringe that they do anything under

19     experiment.  I'm a retired person now and I can call it that.  They set

20     up a mission on the understanding that the people who fought in Croatia,

21     the areas of Croatia that were taken, had not been through fighting.

22     They were not ready actually and there was no formula for a peaceful

23     settlement.  So the mission was set up to freeze where they were in the

24     fighting, hoping they can be talked into, one, not to resuming any

25     fighting, and ending the fighting they had.

Page 21268

 1             And on that understanding, the assumption, strange as it may

 2     sound to you, that the mission would not be placed entirely in the area

 3     where they fought but would be placed in an area the UN thought was

 4     peaceful; therefore, the headquarters of the mission was selected to be

 5     Sarajevo.  And the military logistics battalions, of all places, had been

 6     located in Banja Luka.  Why?  Because that was "peaceful."  So the

 7     assumption was the area that Dr. Karadzic is talking about being armed

 8     was assumed to be peaceful.

 9             When I drove from Sector West to Topusko, an area in Croatia, I

10     drove through Bosnia.  Two military people drove me through Bosnia

11     because it was more peaceful.  So the entire premise was Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina was peaceful, and Croatia, the parts that are taken, were not

13     peaceful.  So for me to hear now that they were preparing for war, I can

14     only say it took me up to May to discover, indeed, something was not

15     peaceful over there.  And we found it the hard way.  I was in the convoy

16     with the force commander, General Nambiar through Bihac when they were

17     stopped by armed people inside the peaceful area.

18             Now, I've taken this long to explain a simple point that the area

19     that I'm listening to Dr. Karadzic being armed as -- as being armed we

20     had assumed it was peaceful and it was going to be so.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know -- were you informed that even before

22     your arrival, the fighting from in Croatia was spilling over into Bosnia

23     and that was shooting from the Croat side into Bosnia and that there were

24     Bosnian victims very early on already in July and all the way through the

25     beginning of the war in Bosnia itself?

Page 21269

 1        A.   July of which year, Dr. Karadzic?

 2        Q.   1991.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly take a look at

 4     D1911.  It's a police report from July 1991.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 6        Q.   Would you please take a look at this document.  Mention is made

 7     of Bosanski Novi, Dubica, Gradiska and Srbac, these are territories

 8     bordering on Croatia and it says there that -- that forces were being

 9     grouped there, that there was shooting, that automatic weapons were being

10     brought in from the territory of Croatia.  On the 26th and the 27th of

11     June there was incessant fighting which lasted over two hours and so on

12     and so forth.

13             Now, were you when you were briefed, were you also informed that

14     you could run into this and that the war was spilling over across the

15     border with Bosnia?

16        A.   Your Honour, I ask the date of July is 1991.  The mission was not

17     authorised until a year later in April, 1992.  I have also taken a little

18     of your time, Your Honour, to say the understanding was the war among

19     these parties had not been ended, yet the United Nations Security Council

20     decided in good faith, it was like a prayer you would say, a Hail Mary,

21     that we are going to go in there and help make sure things don't get

22     worse than they are and hopefully better.  Yes, it was understood this

23     war had not ended, which explains why a UN mission like UNPROFOR would be

24     headed by a soldier.  Most UN missions are not headed by a soldier.  They

25     are headed by a civilian when there is a peace formula.  This mission was

Page 21270

 1     headed at the top by General Satish Nambiar in recognition that there was

 2     still fighting going on.  I even experienced it on my way into the area.

 3     There were smouldering tanks and cocked guns at crossing points.  Yes, if

 4     the statement is that there was fighting, that was understood, there was

 5     fighting, but what I would like the Court to understand is that both

 6     governments that were signatory to this mission, the government in

 7     Belgrade and government in Zagreb had agreed they would end or hold the

 8     status quo; no more fighting.  That was the agreement.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kirudja, my -- it was my intention to explore

10     whether you had been informed in time that the crisis had begun in Bosnia

11     much earlier, long before May 1992, and that for almost a year all these

12     municipalities, including Bosanski Novi, were exposed to shells coming

13     from the other side, that there was shooting, although the war had not

14     officially broken out in Bosnia and Herzegovina yet.  Would you agree

15     with me that -- did you know how long these tensions were rising on the

16     Bosnian side?

17        A.   Actually, I appreciate that question from Dr. Karadzic in a

18     different way.  My responsibility was in a sector, the very sector

19     bordering on these municipalities in Bosnia.  My difficulties, and

20     somewhere in this testimony you will find reference to it, my

21     headquarters were convinced of their own assumption that that area was

22     peaceful.  My task was to tell them something they didn't expect and

23     frankly didn't want to hear, that there was trouble.  And you -- I forget

24     which paragraph in here but maybe the counsel for Prosecution can refer

25     to the paragraph where I'm being admonished that you are spending too

Page 21271

 1     much time telling us about this area.

 2             It took us a very short period to find out that there was trouble

 3     but I want to make also clear to the Court, it wasn't uniform trouble.

 4     It was selective trouble along that border because of the nature of those

 5     municipalities that Dr. Karadzic is talking about.  In this report we are

 6     talking about, for purposes of explaining to the people we were reporting

 7     to, we had divided that border in two parts.  One part is where the

 8     municipalities were controlled by the Serbs on both sides.  And those

 9     were the municipalities in Kostajnica on the UNPA Dvor or across the

10     other side in Bosanski Novi and the other municipalities named where the

11     Serbs were in control on both sides.  There were no trouble there.  There

12     was no difficulties there.

13             Trouble starts when you go to the Velika Kladusa, Bosnia,

14     Bosanska Krupa, Prijedor, these were Muslims controlled on one side and

15     on the UNPA side the Serbs were there.  That's where trouble was.  So it

16     wasn't a uniform trouble, it was a specific trouble.

17        Q.   I hope you understand that I'm making a pause for interpretation.

18     Now, I would like to thank you, Dr. Kirudja, for the clarification you've

19     provided.  However, irrespective of the fact that you had a mandate

20     within the UNPA area, the Prosecution is hoping that with the help of

21     your knowledge and your reports they will be able to also prove some

22     events on the Bosnian side.  That's why I'm asking you about this.

23             Now, I would like to show you an intercept.  True, this

24     conversation was before you arrived.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 03177.

Page 21272

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 2        Q.   You will see from this intercept on the 31st of August, 1991,

 3     from the Croatian side Serbs were killed in Bosanski Novi by a sniper.

 4     My intention is to show the build-up of this crisis in Bosnia and to show

 5     that it did not just break out all of a sudden, but rather that it was

 6     very much under the influence of the war that was going on.

 7             Now, we will see that intercept in a moment and I will show you

 8     that on the 31st of August there was shooting on Bosanski Novi and people

 9     were getting killed there.  Did anyone ever tell you that the war was

10     spilling over and that there was a lot of shooting into Bosnia?

11        A.   We only came to the same conclusion that the war was spilling

12     over, not at the time period, Dr. Karadzic, you take your reference, but

13     after we arrived there, and a good part of my report was to document

14     precisely that, that the war was spilling over the areas where the UN

15     thought it has a mandate and establishing that mandate and changing or

16     calling for change in that mandate.  We made conscious effort to document

17     that fact, even at the risk of me getting hand-slapped about it.  Well,

18     for want of a better word hand-slapped, being warned, that the UN has no

19     mandate in those areas.  But I had no option, nor was there any option

20     left to me and other people, and I did say that in the strongest terms I

21     could to the people that didn't want to listen in my headquarters.  The

22     people who were coming to us seeking refuge were not drawn by a mandate.

23     There was a flag, a blue flag, flying where we were and they saw them or

24     took the shortest route to that area.  And they told us their story.  And

25     our duty was to tell that story.  But I agree with Dr. Karadzic to the

Page 21273

 1     extent that the war was spilling over when we are looking at it.  The

 2     dates where he is starting from, with obvious understanding, is dates

 3     that I couldn't authenticate since I wasn't there.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please take a look at the bottom of -- or

 5     the lower part of this intercept where Krajisnik is talking to me and he

 6     is telling me that two men were killed in a cafe by a sniper shooter from

 7     the other side of the river, from the Croatian side.  If you have found

 8     this portion, we don't have to keep this on the screen anymore.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, could this be

10     admitted under the same conditions as those that apply to all intercepts

11     that have been admitted so far.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Would you agree that here we see that it is being said that there

14     was a cold-blooded murder from the -- that occurred that was perpetrated

15     from the other side of the river and that this had to have an effect on

16     Bosanski Novi long before the war broke out?

17        A.   Unfortunately your wording, Dr. Karadzic is much too strong for

18     me to authenticate.  You are calling it a cold-blooded murder which is a

19     judgement I couldn't corroborate too, since I'm just looking at this

20     statement that something happened.

21        Q.   Thank you.  In the third box from the bottom I say that this was

22     a cold-blooded murder because that's how we saw it then.  This was long

23     before the war in Bosnia.  But, all right.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I would like to

25     tender this.

Page 21274

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  It's an intercept, you asking it be MFI'd?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, as we've done so far with

 3     intercepts when admitting them.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D1915, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, you testified in the Milosevic case, 65 ter 22681,

 8     and on page 15550 of 4th February 2003, of the transcript you said that

 9     Croatian forces violated the Vance Plan when they attacked Miljevac, the

10     Miljevac plateau, do you recall saying that?  And on the following page,

11     the following two pages, you characterised Croatians as aggressors

12     against an UNPA area, that this was something they were not allowed to

13     do.  Would you stand by this statement of yours from that period?

14        A.   Your Honour, it would be more helpful for me to see the full

15     statement since those are extracts from the statement.  And, yes, the

16     location being referred to I have a memory of.  Of course I have

17     testified to many things in six trials and it would just be helpful if I

18     see the context in which reference is being made.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, that would help.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no Serbian translation, we

21     don't really need one now so we can just have the text in English.

22     15550.  That should be the page number.  And then 15556 and 15557.  Can

23     it be zoomed in.  This is 14550 whereas we need 15550.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  This is the Brdjanin trial, not the Milosevic

25     trial.  I see the examination by Ms. Korner.

Page 21275

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One page further up.  Can we scroll

 2     down now, please.  We now see the answer, Dr. Kirudja's answer, a bit

 3     further down.  The next page as well.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Do you remember that this was a crisis and that the UNPAs were

 6     being attacked in September 1992 and do you also remember that at the

 7     same time in Banja Luka there was an armed rebellion, a mutiny, as it

 8     were, in my own army?

 9        A.   Your Honour, I would like for the Court now to place in context

10     the earlier statement that I had said something about violation.  It's

11     clear we were talking about the Security Council report that came to that

12     conclusion.  It wasn't my conclusion, as you can see at the bottom,

13     line 9.  Mr. Milosevic was interrogating that report through me.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  The report effectively stands alone because it

15     was the Security Council's report and it was one that you, like everyone

16     else, simply received from the Security Council; is that right?

17             THE WITNESS:  Right.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you remember the crisis that we had in Banja Luka when there

22     was this mutiny, this unit rebelled and there was a crisis in Banja Luka

23     for about ten days?

24        A.   Dr. Karadzic, do you recall the month, year when this crisis

25     occurred?

Page 21276

 1        Q.   The 9th of September, 1993.  The 9th of September up until the

 2     17th of September there was this rebellion, mutiny.  There was a total

 3     blockade of the city itself.  I believe that you observed that and that

 4     you heard about it from your colleagues' reports or that it was in your

 5     reports?

 6        A.   Thank you, Dr. Karadzic.  The way we were organised to report and

 7     cover matters occurring in the area where the UN mission was deployed

 8     placed the area Dr. Karadzic is talking about under a person with my

 9     capacity and his name was Viktor Andreev.  Those issues would have come

10     through a report by Viktor Andreev based in Sarajevo.  It wouldn't have

11     come through me.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  The transcript is obviously -- it's been

14     corrected now, thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look at

16     D192 [as interpreted] briefly.  Let us see what the situation was in

17     Bosanski Novi in mid-April 1992.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, did you know that at the time, or rather, during the

20     period that preceded the Vance Plan for Croatia, that what happened en

21     masse were sieges and attacks against JNA barracks in Croatia?

22        A.   I had another understanding of what happened and the report

23     itself makes reference to it.  When we arrived under the Vance Plan at

24     the early part of this narrative, you get a picture of what we were

25     required to do in three parts.  The first part involved the military part

Page 21277

 1     that said we need to take over where the warring parties had stopped, get

 2     them to lay down their arms, demobilise and take control.  At that time

 3     the entire area which was my charge was under the 10th Corps of the JNA

 4     commanded by General Spiro Ninkovic.  He did give us a good idea of the

 5     fighting that took place in that area prior to our arrival.  My

 6     understanding is that when there is a fight, of course it can't be a

 7     one-sided fight, you receive and you give, but the balance of the fight

 8     was in favour of the 10th Corps to the point that he took pride on the

 9     report, the narrative that was used, Your Honour, that they took the war

10     up to the edges where they wanted to go because they were able to do so.

11             They considered and give up as impractical the idea of taking the

12     war beyond the Mreznica and Kupa river short of Karlovac and Zepa.  So my

13     understanding of the fighting was pretty much a one-sided fight.  And he

14     said so himself.

15        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kirudja.  It would be interesting if we had enough

16     time to hear all your views on that situation.  However, I would like to

17     read a paragraph out to you.  All of this because I want us to see all

18     the things that Mr. Pasic knew and what he was dealing with before he

19     asked you for assistance, so please bear with me.  This is a police

20     report of the 16th of April, 1992.  And the paragraph I'm reading out

21     says:

22             [As read] "However, the escalation of war conflicts.  Constant

23     aggression against units and barracks of the JNA in the Republic of

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the presence of Croatian paramilitary

25     forces, the HOS and the ZNG, in -- on the outskirts of the broader region

Page 21278

 1     accompanied by a lack of personal security of citizens and safety of

 2     their property as well as the economic collapse are all factors that

 3     blatantly reflect the possibility of an outburst of dissatisfaction and

 4     certainly an inter-ethnic conflict with catastrophic consequences."

 5             The sentence before all of this says that this has to do with the

 6     situation in Bosanski Novi.

 7             So this is my question now, Dr. Kirudja:  Do you accept that the

 8     mayor of Novi, Bosanski Novi, Pasic, had to bear all of this on his

 9     shoulders June 1991, September 1991, sniping, shelling, killing of

10     civilians, then further on it says that many mobilised persons who fought

11     in Slavonia are coming back.  I'm going to read out the previous

12     paragraph to you as well:

13             [As read] "This lack of balance is contributed to by the

14     cessation of military conflicts as well as the arrival of UN peacekeepers

15     in the areas of Banija and Western Slavonia where many mobilised citizens

16     from the area of Bosanski Novi were stationed in JNA units."

17             Do you agree that considerably before the UN arrived and before

18     the crisis broke out in Bosanski Novi there were many things going on

19     that prepared for that crisis?

20        A.   Certainly, Your Honour, what the mayor was asking Novi had to

21     bear in 1999 [sic] prior our arrival may well be what Dr. Karadzic says

22     he had to bear.  I don't know since I didn't witness it.  That is

23     entirely possible and then again, I wouldn't confirm or deny it.  But

24     when we arrived there, when he approached me, he began to tell a story of

25     a period of time whose parts did not coalesce or didn't agree with each

Page 21279

 1     other, and the narrative you have takes you through that and one of that

 2     was you are telling us there are 5.000 people gathered in your town, the

 3     town where you are the mayor and they want to leave voluntarily.  First

 4     question to him by me, why now?  Why would people leave the comfort of

 5     their homes and seek shelter somewhere else?  And why are you talking on

 6     their behalf with none of their representatives here for us to hear?

 7     Remember we are not challenging him.  We are strangers.  We don't know

 8     the facts.  So the passport of that allegation falls apart because he

 9     says there's a new reality to the question why now, and I ask what

10     reality?  We have a new country called Republic of Serb --

11     Republika Srpska of BiH, and I say, pray, when did this start, I don't

12     know, he says.  So the Muslims won't swear allegiance.  So then I say to

13     him, so you are living together here comfortably and suddenly you want

14     them to swear allegiance to a new thing?  Yes, because it's the rule, he

15     says.  And I said to him, what rule?  And he says, I don't know but it's

16     called this.  And then I say to him, and then what happened?  We want

17     them to disarm.  And I said, you want them to disarm.  Yes.  Why would

18     they want to be armed if everything is peaceful?  Then the next shoe

19     drops because they are being attacked by irregulars around us and whose

20     irregulars, they can't be Muslims, no, but they are Serb irregulars.  And

21     the story went on.

22             I, at a certain point, if what had happened there were tension

23     before, he would have told me.  We've been fighting for some time prior,

24     this is what was going on.  No, he didn't say that.  He said they won't

25     disarm and they won't swear allegiance to the new reality.  So they have

Page 21280

 1     to leave.  So then I say so they are not leaving voluntarily?  And he

 2     says, not really.  He agrees.  They are not leaving voluntarily.  Then I

 3     say to him, then why would people who don't want to swear allegiance,

 4     don't want to fight, why do they want to keep arms?  And he says to me,

 5     and the report again does make that amply clear, says, no, because they

 6     are militarily weak.  They can't really fight and they don't want to go

 7     to the other part, Western Bosnia controlled by the government of

 8     Izetbegovic.  So the explanations given live and in the moment never went

 9     back to the past of tensions, so I wouldn't have known there were

10     tensions nor did they even talk about them.

11        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kirudja.  Please focus on paragraph 48 of your

12     statement where you describe the continuation of your conversation with

13     Mr. Pasic.  Mr. Pasic's position was that they were not to go or to go

14     further to Republika Srpska.  However, he informed you that Serb

15     policemen were killed, a police patrol had been attacked, and that they

16     were resolved to go but not just to any part of Bosnia, only to Western

17     Europe.  They didn't want to go anywhere in Bosnia regardless of whether

18     it was under Serb or Muslim control.

19             Were you informed that they wanted to leave Bosnia as such?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honour, and I was informed by the Serbs this is what

21     the Muslims want to do.  I wasn't informed by the Muslims.  I was

22     informed by the Serbs that this is what the Muslims want to do.  I want

23     to make that specific.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 50 you say that you asked them what was

25     it that had changed in Bosanski Novi and for that reason I note that no

Page 21281

 1     one had informed you about how long the crisis had been going on, about

 2     when the crises started and when tensions went up in Bosanski Novi and in

 3     this entire border area.  So I'm asking you now, did you know that the

 4     Muslim side from the end of April 1991 up until the beginning of

 5     April 1992 had over 150.000 armed men in the Patriotic League, that they

 6     had staffs, nine regional staffs and 103 municipal staffs, and that they

 7     were actively preparing for war against the Serbs?

 8        A.   I didn't know it then nor do I know it now.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  And do forgive me for wishing for brief

10     answers because I am afraid that we will not be able to deal with

11     everything and I wouldn't want us to keep you here next week as well.  I

12     accept that that was our mistake, the fact that you were not sufficiently

13     informed, but you do accept that Pasic's knowledge and experience up

14     until the 27th of May when you met was rife with problems that you had

15     been unaware of; right?

16        A.   I didn't know all his problems when he came to speak to me, but

17     he had specific ones that he came to speak to me about.  Those are the

18     removal of those 5.000 people.  Well, this needs to be specified from the

19     point of view of criminal law, so please understand me.

20             In paragraph 77 of your statement you spoke about the 6th of July

21     when Mr. Pasic sent you a letter.  Please take a look at that paragraph.

22     Pasic signed the letter and he said that Muslims and people from other

23     ethnic backgrounds were voluntarily leaving their homes and were seeking

24     assistance to leave the municipality.

25             May I ask you this now, Dr. Kirudja, do you agree that there is

Page 21282

 1     not a single army in the world that could tolerate being shot in the back

 2     by their very own people?

 3        A.   Totally agree.  There is a responsibility that authorities in

 4     power have, and one of them is to restore order in the legal

 5     jurisdictions in which they operate.  If that's the question, I

 6     understand that, naturally.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 46 you describe your dilemma in terms of

 8     why people wish to leave their homes, and you describe what Mr. Pasic

 9     said to you.  Now I would like to complete the picture.  The front lines

10     are far away from Bosanski Novi and you know what the front line or

11     conflict line was like in Bosnia.  However, in the villages of

12     Bosanski Novi there was a military organisation of the Muslims that was

13     attacking and killing small police patrols.  This led to a reaction.  Not

14     on the part of the legal authorities, but organs that were out of

15     control, or rather, groups that were out of control that then took their

16     revenge and exerted pressure against the Muslims?  Do you find that

17     understandable?  Is this what Mr. Pasic said to you exactly?

18        A.   No, Your Honour, I want to make this very clear, that was not

19     understandable to me, not then, not now.  There were too many conflicting

20     things that the mayor said to me.  I want -- in the earlier paragraph 77,

21     Dr. Karadzic notes that despite all those exchanges, despite all those

22     discussions in an attempt for me to understand it, despite the fact that

23     in my presence he accepts that they were not voluntary, they were not

24     doing this on their own, he still writes the letter claiming they were

25     doing it voluntarily.  No, nothing was understandable in the way it was

Page 21283

 1     being presented at that time.  But one thing was being clear, they were

 2     driven to do this.  They wanted to do this and if I stood in their way,

 3     they ask who is my superior since we can't get through to you.

 4        Q.   Well, now we have to spell this out in very specific terms,

 5     Dr. Kirudja.  When it says that someone was forced to leave, although

 6     they did not wish to leave but they do decide to leave nevertheless, I

 7     would like us to shed more light on this.  Was it developments as such

 8     that compel the Muslims to do that as well as pressure exerted by

 9     elements that were out of control, or was this done by Mr. Pasic?  In

10     paragraph 77 and in paragraph 46, is it not clearly shown that the

11     regular forces have nothing to do with this, that no one wants to

12     pressure the Muslims in any way?  However, the pressure comes from

13     developments as such, how events unravelled.  So they were not forced by

14     the authorities but by the developments as such, as they unravelled?

15        A.   I want to make it clear that, Dr. Karadzic, we understood that.

16     We have in the narrative said so, that Pasic was telling us it wasn't the

17     force, the regular forces.  We do reflect that.  But he is also telling

18     us there were irregular forces doing it and those irregular forces were

19     in his jurisdiction.  The question arises, if you are a regular force of

20     law, you make no distinction between some of your citizens doing

21     irregular things, but this time you focus on the one on the receiving end

22     of those irregular forces.  That's what the implication of that statement

23     is.

24        Q.   But, Dr. Kirudja, the very fact that they were irregular and that

25     Mr. Pasic is issuing orders to the regular Territorial Defence to

Page 21284

 1     resubordinate them, to control them, to disarm them, to disband them

 2     speaks in itself of the fact that they were not under his control, that

 3     makes them irregular because they do not have a command above them.  On

 4     the other hands they were the regular forces, the regular police going to

 5     those villages, arming Muslim policemen and charging them with taking

 6     care of the people, protecting the people.  So the regular police, the

 7     regular forces are under Pasic's control and they behave in a regular

 8     manner.  The irregulars are out of control.  Anybody's control.  Do you

 9     agree that this very notion of being out of control means that they are

10     out of control?

11        A.   Actually, if that was what you were explaining, Mr. Karadzic, it

12     would have been a different understanding.  He wasn't asking the

13     irregulars to disarm.  He wasn't asking the irregulars to swear

14     allegiance to his authority and do the right thing.  He was asking -- or

15     rather, he was saying, "I'm required to get the swearing of allegiance

16     from the people in the receiving end of these irregulars."  By a new

17     authority he called it a new reality.  If what Dr. Karadzic is explaining

18     was explained at that time, we would have queried why you were unable to

19     do something about it.  We never discussed that.  What he was talking

20     about was they don't want to do it, they can't live with us, therefore

21     they must leave.  The narrative over a period, it's not a single session.

22     Towards the end the narrative says once you understand we can't live

23     together, the Serbs and the Muslim, everything will be solved.  Not about

24     lawlessness, not about irregular, not about breakdown.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  We'll take a break now.  We'll adjourn.  We'll

Page 21285

 1     resume sitting again at 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11:00 a.m.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, I have to ask you to be as brief as possible in your

 8     answers because we don't have enough time and there is a host of

 9     documents that we have to go through.

10             Now, as far as your last answer was concerned, this answer that

11     you gave and your position behind it, is that based on the fact that

12     Pasic did not order the disbanding and disarming of paramilitary units,

13     Serb paramilitary units.

14        A.   Your Honour, I appreciate the request by Dr. Karadzic for me to

15     be brief, and I endeavour to be brief.  I also note for the record his

16     questions are pretty complex.  If they were simpler, they will get a

17     simpler answer.  Nevertheless, we'll try.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, I think in fencing that's known as

19     touche.

20             THE WITNESS:  The question about Mr. Pasic's request to us and

21     how we saw it was not that of trying to make him do or not do something.

22     We wanted to understand, Dr. Karadzic, what it is he wanted us to do.

23     It's that simple.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   But, Dr. Kirudja, we showed through other witnesses to the

Page 21286

 1     Trial Chamber various orders issued by Mr. Pasic, orders to regular

 2     forces to take measures against irregular forces.  Were you aware of

 3     that?

 4        A.   Certainly I wouldn't be aware of Mr. Pasic's dealings with other

 5     people, interlocutors.  I certainly wouldn't be aware.

 6        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, these were orders issued by Mr. Pasic and orders

 7     issued by the Municipal Assembly, the parliament, at the proposal of the

 8     Serb Democratic Party to take severe action and disband these units.

 9     That was an order and did you know this because your last reply before

10     the break contained an implication that Pasic should have taken care of

11     the victims and not paramilitary units.  Were you aware that Pasic took

12     very severe measures and attempted severe measures against paramilitary

13     units?

14        A.   I knew Mr. Pasic as not reticent in telling me what he had in

15     mind.  He engaged me over a period of time with a single-mind objective.

16     I have recounted that and it is reflected in the narrative.  At no time

17     did the issue of whether or not he was trying to --

18        Q.   With all due respect, Dr. Kirudja, my only question is do you

19     know -- and I just ask my question based on your reply before the break.

20     Do you know that Mr. Pasic and the municipal authorities issued orders to

21     the Territorial Defence to disband and hamper the operations of the Serb

22     paramilitary units?  Can you just answer that question.

23        A.   Yes, I can.  He never spoke of it.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that in addition to Serb paramilitary

25     units in Novi Grad municipality and the villages in question, there

Page 21287

 1     was -- there was operational a secret Muslim military unit which also had

 2     a lot of weapons?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that there was a train prepared for

 5     these Muslims to take the Muslims from the areas, endangered areas to

 6     Banja Luka, that they refused, returned, went back to their villages and

 7     remained there for another 17 days?

 8        A.   I believe that is covered in one paragraph in my narrative.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 23028,

11     please.  We don't need the version in Serbian other than for the public.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   But would you agree that this is a communication from the High

14     Commission for Refugees and he reports on an incident on the evening of

15     7th of July when they received information that 79 refugees were outside

16     of the police station asking assistance to cross to Croatia, and that in

17     the second paragraph it say that they did leave the police station and

18     returned to Bosanski Novi.  And then in paragraph 4 we see that they

19     met -- they had another meeting with the Muslims, that it took -- that it

20     lasted three hours and they were able to interview family members, or

21     rather, families who represented these Muslims.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page,

23     please.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   Can you see in paragraph 7 it says that the crisis committee of

Page 21288

 1     Bosanski Novi addresses a letter to civil affairs in Sector North, that

 2     was your unit, wasn't it?  And informed you that 1233 persons had applied

 3     to the authorities for permission to leave and then it says that those

 4     who did not have their own means of transportation would be provided for

 5     transportation by the municipality.  Those who have their own cars would

 6     leave in their own cars.  Then in paragraph 8 we see that there was a

 7     meeting between the mayor and then towards the bottom it says that these

 8     1300 families who fulfilled the criteria are not the same individuals,

 9     those 5.000 Muslims who were -- who left in a convoy at the end of May

10     and who managed to escape and so on and so forth, and those routes that

11     they had taken were no longer open.

12             Do you know, Dr. Kirudja, that not a single certificate on the

13     change of ownership was ever actually implemented.

14        A.   No, I don't.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Paragraph 10 where it says that the deputy mayor stressed that he

19     wouldn't do anything about the UNPROFOR.  And then please take a look at

20     what you here attributed to Mr. Pasic, toward the end of paragraph 11, it

21     says:

22             [In English] [As read] "When I asked them to confirm that the

23     mayors of Bosanski Novi and Banja Luka had been on the news in Banja Luka

24     TV stating that Muslims and Serbs could no longer live together, they

25     said it was not the mayor but the chief of the crisis committee in

Page 21289

 1     Banja Luka, Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin."

 2             [Interpretation] Can you remember that Mr. Pasic -- can you

 3     remember that it was ever reported that it was Mr. Pasic who said that

 4     they couldn't live together?  Were you aware of this clarification, that

 5     this was something that was attributed to Pasic but it was not in fact

 6     Pasic's position.

 7        A.   Your Honour, I get the idea that this testimony is contrasted

 8     with the narrative and there is some contrast being drawn, that the

 9     narrative said somewhere Pasic said something.  I don't know that and if

10     I have to comment on it, I would comment on a specific paragraph.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this is paragraph 84 of -- referred

13     to in Dr. Kirudja's statement at paragraph 84.  And it's also an

14     associated exhibit so it should have an exhibit number by now.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, thank you.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It's Exhibit P3840, Your Honours.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry [Microphone not activated].

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   While we still have this document before us --

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, footnote 211.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, while we still have this document before us, would

23     you accept that there is a difference whether -- when something is said

24     by the president of the municipality where all three ethnicities are

25     supposed to live or when those words were pronounced by a member of

Page 21290

 1     parliament where it would refer to the entire population of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina, if it is Brdjanin speaking, he is speaking about the

 3     transformation of the entire republic.  If these were, however, the words

 4     of Pasic, then your interpretation would be correct.

 5             To be more specific, maybe I can help.  Do you know that there

 6     was a conference before the war started on the transformation of Bosnia

 7     into three republics?

 8        A.   No, I didn't know about the conference.

 9        Q.   Well, I will put it to you now, we accepted that Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina could leave Yugoslavia under those conditions that were

11     promoted by the European community, and Brdjanin was a deputy and he

12     could accept those.  So did you know that this proposal was accepted by

13     the Assembly and that it was that this official proposal by the

14     European Union was accepted?

15        A.   No, I didn't.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry for interrupting but I

18     just wanted to make the record clear, on page 34, line 21, Mr. Karadzic

19     says as part of his question and then please take a look at what you here

20     attributed to Mr. Pasic towards the end of paragraph 11 and it's not --

21     this witness isn't the author of this document that we are looking at on

22     the screen now.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  No.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Excellency,

25     but Dr. Kirudja said in his reply something that did not find a way into

Page 21291

 1     his reports, in other words, that Mr. Pasic had told him that they could

 2     no longer go on living together.  And here we see a UNHCR document which

 3     says that there were such rumours but it was clarified that it wasn't

 4     Pasic who said those words, but Brdjanin, and then I asked Dr. Kirudja

 5     whether he knew that Mr. Brdjanin was involved in the work of this

 6     conference that was supposed to produce three republics, the outcome of

 7     which was to be these three different republics, and that Brdjanin was

 8     authorised to speak of those things whereas Pasic was not.  Now I would

 9     like to tender this document.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It's Exhibit P3840, Your Honours.  It's part of

12     the associated exhibits.

13             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Kirudja.

15             THE WITNESS:  Sometimes the procedure of the court and what you

16     call a document from who, from different people is not always familiar to

17     me.  This document is authored by UNHCR.  I'm entirely familiar with it

18     because the author used to occupy a room in my office and it's been

19     tendered in some of these footnotes as a Prosecution -- in the footnotes.

20     So I wanted that clarification that when it says something and what the

21     narrative summarises, the narrative is the summary.  It's not the

22     document from which the information being discussed came from.

23     Narratives, by nature, condense it.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you for that clarification, Dr. Kirudja.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21292

 1        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, you did know that some Serb paramilitary units were

 2     disarmed; isn't that so?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 23027,

 5     please.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3819, Your Honours, part of the

 7     associated exhibits.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Is this your dispatch?  Is this a document produced by you?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the first page, please.

12     We don't need the Serb version.  Can we have the first page, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Am I correct that this document from the UNHCR were forwarded by

15     you through your own channels to other authorities and that they related

16     to the 5.000 inhabitants in Bosanski Novi?

17        A.   Certainly the document on the monitor right now I recognise, and

18     has my name on it.  I do recognise it.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the third page, please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Let's take a look at the second half of the first paragraph.

23     There you are mentioned and it says that you participated in a meeting

24     with the mayor of Dvor and it also says that there were other members of

25     the local government and then it goes on to say that on the 28th of May,

Page 21293

 1     the mayor of Bosanski Novi, Radomir Pasic, and his associate Palija

 2     visited you, and then in paragraph 3, it says that the request from

 3     Bosanski Novi was essentially a proposal that their police and Krajina

 4     police escort a group of 5.000, 5.000 Muslims, to the border of Croatia

 5     from where UNPROFOR should take over and escort them to the border of

 6     Slovenia and then on to Austria and Germany.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, let's take a look at

 8     paragraph 6.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   But before that, do you remember this?

11        A.   I recognise the document to be from the same source I referred to

12     earlier.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see paragraph 6, please.

15     No, that's not the correct page.  The previous page, please.  This is

16     chapter, or item 6 but not paragraph 6, so can we see the sixth

17     paragraph.  Please show the entire paragraph.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you see here that this describes what Rade Palija reported,

20     that they felt insecure, that they went to the authorities seeking help.

21     They asked the authorities to help them to leave and then that there was

22     a convoy of 5.000 people that was formed, that they wanted to leave to

23     Austria and Germany where they had relatives and then in order to help

24     them, the Bosanski Novi police and the Krajina police agreed to escort

25     them.

Page 21294

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]Now, can we see the next page.

 2             And while we wait for that, Dr. Kirudja, are you aware of an

 3     agreement that was signed on the 22nd of May, 1992, an agreement between

 4     the three warring parties in Bosnia under the auspices of the UNHCR,

 5     according to which all the parties have the response -- are duty-bound to

 6     escort convoys of people who wanted to leave and cross over to another

 7     territory?

 8        A.   Not specifically that agreement of the three parties, no.  I

 9     don't know about it.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see here it says that the Bosanski Novi

11     authorities suggested that they leave and go to other parts of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina where there were Muslim majorities but they refused because

13     they were afraid they would be mobilised and for the same reason they did

14     not want to enter Croatia alone.  So in addition to the offer to go to

15     Banja Luka or Doboj, they were also offered the possibility of crossing

16     over to the Muslim territory but they declined all of those offers and

17     they wanted to leave Bosnia as a whole.  Were you aware of that?

18        A.   Not only I was aware of that, it's reflected severally in the

19     narrative that you have on my side, that very statement.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now take a look at the next paragraph where it says

21     war had reached Bosanski Novi, the war that had started on the 6th of

22     April in Bosnia, and it says here that within the last 15 to 20 days, the

23     conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina had reached Bosanski Novi, and that

24     there were -- there was a certain amount of pressure from uncontrolled

25     Serbian groups.

Page 21295

 1        A.   Excuse me, what paragraph is that?

 2        Q.   The same paragraph before the -- above number 5, chapter 5,

 3     within the last --

 4             [In English] "... within the last 15, 20 days ..."

 5        A.   Yes, it's noted.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now, if we go further down, we see

 7     that it says, the mayor:

 8             [In English] [As read] "... The mayor wanted to stress Serbian

 9     protection of these Muslims, some had even been taken into Serbian houses

10     for protection in Serbian villages.  Security at Blagaj was said to be

11     provided by civil police and military police of the

12     Army of Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina."

13             [Interpretation] And so on and so forth.  Did you know that the

14     official Serbian authorities did everything they could to protect these

15     Muslims and if you look at paragraph 6, you see that they also organised

16     meetings.  There were meetings between the SDA and the SDS, we see it in

17     that paragraph, where they discussed -- where they reached an agreement

18     that all paramilitary groups should be disarmed and so on and so forth.

19     Was that something that you were aware of too?

20        A.   The Court will note the narrative verbatim repeats those points.

21     It's not that the security was provided.  It says, "We are telling you

22     the security was provided."  Neither the author of that document nor our

23     narrative says we know about security being provided.  It says we are

24     informed that the security is being informed [sic].  Two very different

25     things.

Page 21296

 1        Q.   That is sufficient, Dr. Kirudja, that you had that information.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, could we have the next page,

 3     please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   At the top we see that you were informed that some Serbian

 6     paramilitary groups had been disarmed; is that correct?

 7        A.   Noted.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we see chapter 9 or

10     item 9.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Where you inquired about the relevant, or rather, legitimate

13     Muslim representatives.  You were provided two names of people you could

14     get in touch with.  Now, do you know that Sifet Barjaktarevic was a

15     leader and organiser of the paramilitary organisation of Muslims there?

16        A.   I wouldn't know that because I never actually met them.  My

17     narrative says I didn't meet them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In any case, the Serbs recommended the two, that you

19     should speak to the two of them; correct?

20        A.   Correct, and I declined because I had learnt that the Serbs had

21     imprisoned both of them.

22        Q.   Shouldn't you have talked to them all the more so because of that

23     specifically?

24        A.   No, because of the subject.  The subject was I want to know the

25     true intentions of the Muslims.  For that reason, I need a source that is

Page 21297

 1     not encumbered one way or the other to get the true intentions of the

 2     Muslims.  I didn't think these two would lead me that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 2303.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Could you repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic,

 6     please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 23030.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree that this is a letter by the UNHCR to Mr. Pasic.

10     Here we can see who was contacted and who sent their representatives.  In

11     the third paragraph, we can see again that the Serbs mention the names of

12     Sifet Barjaktarevic and Fikret Hamzic as the people who could speak on

13     behalf of the Muslim community.  The mayor is being asked to set up a

14     meeting with Muhamedagic and representatives of the local Red Cross or

15     Merhamet.  It goes on to say that the UNHCR is unwilling to take part in

16     a new influx of refugees; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, I recognise this letter, its context and the circumstances

18     under which it was written and its full intent.

19        Q.   Next they ask to meet Mr. Muhamedagic.  Do you know how they

20     learned of that name?

21        A.   To repeat to the Court, this letter is from the same source in my

22     office with UNHCR mandate.  It's a source that was always welcomed to my

23     meetings.  He knew everything that took place earlier.  He knew about the

24     two names, but there was a division of mandate and responsibility so he

25     took his line, discussed with me, and this letter was the result.

Page 21298

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you this, Dr. Kirudja, with regard to this

 2     letter:  Is it correct that you presumed that in Bosanski Novi the

 3     situation was quiet and within the ordinary as well as the authorities

 4     were in control?  Did you presume that the authorities had their

 5     territory under control?

 6        A.   This letter chronologically comes towards the tail end from the

 7     first day we met in Dvor being requested to participate in the 5.000

 8     people transit, to the point where we declined participation.  This

 9     letter comes towards the end of that entire process.  It cannot presume

10     things were other than tense with the possibility that 5.000 people were

11     being asked to leave their homes.  It couldn't presume that.

12        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, do you have any proof that they were asked to do

13     that, or was it the way I put it, which is that they asked a permission

14     from the authorities to leave?  Can you actually prove that it was the

15     authorities who told them to leave, or was it the other way around?

16        A.   The entire narrative is given in very simple sequence at the end

17     of which the narrative says we came to the inescapable conclusion the

18     people are not leaving voluntarily.  It wasn't us who was confirming

19     that, it is the people from Bosanski Novi that came to my office plus

20     other offices upon questioning admitting to us, no it wasn't, and they

21     give the reasons that are contained in the narrative.

22        Q.   Who told you that?

23        A.   Shall we go back to where I started, Your Honour?  I can relate

24     the whole thing again.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, the witness has already explained

Page 21299

 1     that to us.  It seems unnecessary for him to repeat it.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at paragraph 44 then,

 3     Dr. Kirudja.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   It is your conclusion:

 6             [In English] "After the meeting I concluded ..."

 7             [Interpretation] This was your conclusion, therefore, and no one

 8     ever told you that they were told to leave by the authorities, they were

 9     driven out by the events and a feeling of insecurity.  Where did you

10     report that the authorities actually accepted this position that they

11     were telling the people who leave?  Other than that, this is a mere

12     conclusion of yours.

13        A.   It is not.  The paragraphs preceding that conclusion itemise

14     answers to specific questions put on Bosanski Novi authorities and their

15     answers put in quotes, not as conclusion, but as a direct statement; yes,

16     we admit they are not leaving voluntarily.  Why?  Because they won't sign

17     allegiance.  They would not disarm.  And we had a schedule in another

18     paragraph showing what we did from the 6th of May to the 11th of May.  It

19     is all detailed there.  Dr. Karadzic is correct when he reads I was left

20     with no other option but conclude they were not leaving voluntarily.

21     That is not a conclusion from -- or lacking in the events leading to it.

22     That's a conclusion that falls to hand as those events are narrated.

23        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, let me remind you the issue of signing loyalty oaths

24     pertained only to the policemen who were given a possibility to work for

25     the MUP of the RS.  Given the fact that the RS was a newly formed state,

Page 21300

 1     everyone was asked to sign such an oath, including Serbs, Muslims, and

 2     Croats, because they had to state that they would abide by the law in the

 3     performance of their duties.  In other words, ordinary people were not

 4     asked to sign such loyalty oaths; isn't that correct?

 5        A.   I note that as Dr. Karadzic's comment and I let it stand.  It's

 6     not my comment.  It's not my conclusion.

 7        Q.   Is it your comment then that civilians were expected to sign

 8     loyalty oaths?

 9        A.   Yes, and we were meeting them on a day-to-day basis, escaping

10     from that area.  And they were not Serbs.  They were non-Serbs.

11        Q.   In other words, your source of information was the Muslim

12     refugees; correct?

13        A.   Partly, yes.  The other source were the officials that came to

14     see us.

15        Q.   Can you show us where it was confirmed to you that civilians were

16     expected to sign allegiance?  Where in your statement?  Do you have a

17     document which would confirm that some civilians were expected to sign

18     loyalty oaths if they were not civil servants?

19        A.   It's a huge testimony given over a long period of time that we

20     reported about refugees coming to our office being debriefed and recorded

21     in meeting with us is part of that testimony.  Exactly where it is, I

22     can't tell you right now, Your Honour.  It is there though.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kirudja, let us be precise, did those refugees

24     accept to be returned to Bosnia or did they wish to go further afield to

25     Europe?

Page 21301

 1        A.   There was different answers from different human beings.  People

 2     go where they know others, so some will say where they have relatives,

 3     they have friends, it varied.  But they were leaving.  More importantly,

 4     some surprised us.  Some had signatures that they will not return.  It

 5     was a requirement you sign that you are not even coming back into your

 6     own home.

 7        Q.   Save for what you were told by the refugees who did not wish to

 8     be repatriated, do you have any other circumstances which will testify to

 9     that?

10        A.   Now, Your Honour, I got to go back to something I said earlier at

11     the beginning of this.  My testimony is not an affidavit to this court.

12     My testimony is a compilation of the events that were happening as they

13     were happening at that time for a  different purpose.  Prosecutor saw it

14     fit to put together that information.  So it's not that kind of testimony

15     that Dr. Karadzic is interrogating.

16        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kirudja.  However, this is a criminal matter, and

17     I have to be precise to the last detail.  I assert that it wasn't as you

18     were told by the refugees, and that their statements were the result of

19     their wish not to be repatriated.  Is it so or is it not so?  Was there

20     such a possibility?

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, that's a very difficult question.

22     You are asking the witness to say what was in somebody else's mind.  What

23     he can say is what he was told, and if he was told it by enough people,

24     whether he came to believe it.  But asking what was in their minds was,

25     with great respect, more a question for a psychiatrist than a lawyer.

Page 21302

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  Let's

 2     look, then, at what you said at paragraph 79.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   There you provide an answer to Judge El Mahdi's question

 5     concerning the SDS.  Towards the end of the paragraph, it reads:

 6             [In English] "Even with that warning, they seemed not to be able

 7     or willing to stop the process.  In other words, they did appear to have

 8     all the signs of being driven to undertake this and the only way to mind

 9     they could be driven is they were acting on instructions under a policy

10     drawn by somebody and since they identified themselves as SDS or members

11     of the militia or what they called, for better terminology, new reality

12     going on and that reality called Republic of Serbia, it was, towards the

13     end, inescapable for me to conclude they were acting under policy or

14     instructions."

15             [Interpretation] First of all, let's discuss a detail which

16     appears here.  You probably did not mean to say Serbia, but

17     Republika Srpska; correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Secondly, here again you arrive at a conclusion.  Did you ever

20     attend an SDS meeting or did you ever see any documents which would make

21     you draw that particular conclusion?  Believe me, you can answer this

22     with a simple yes or no and it would be much appreciated.

23        A.   I would like nothing better than to oblige and give you a yes or

24     no.  You phrased it that I can't.  It's not a yes or no.  No, I never

25     attended the -- an SDS meeting.  Yes, I had seen documents, I had

Page 21303

 1     listened to people talking to me.  Yes, from those events the conclusion

 2     was inescapable, and I stand by it.

 3        Q.   Can you refer us to a particular SDS document which made you draw

 4     this conclusion?

 5        A.   I didn't say an SDS document.  Document, one of the strangest

 6     one, was Pasic's own written document which you, Dr. Karadzic, has

 7     referred to the Court - today, I forget which paragraph - and signed as

 8     crisis committee.  That document came at the end of many many meetings

 9     where despite his own admission to me, he writes for official purposes

10     something I know he didn't agree with, that is the voluntary nature of

11     the evacuation.  Just to name one document.

12        Q.   We'll go back to it then.  Dr. Kirudja, do you know that such

13     things did not happen in the following municipalities:  Bosanska Dubica,

14     Gradiska, Srbac, Prnjavor, Sipovo, and others and a number of Muslim

15     witnesses said so.  Do you know of the reasons why it did not occur in

16     these municipalities if, indeed, these were central instructions?  In

17     other words, if you are correct, why was it not implemented across the

18     board starting with the 6th of April?

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  That was a hugely compound question,

20     Dr. Karadzic, and I anticipate that if it stays in that form, Dr. Kirudja

21     will be under an obligation to give a hugely compound answer.  Do you

22     want to try and define it rather better.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd be happy to.  Thank you for

24     your assistance.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21304

 1        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, did you know that -- or do you agree that the crisis

 2     in Bosanski Novi occurred two or two and a half months later once the

 3     clashes had erupted all around that particular municipality?

 4        A.   No, I don't.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that none of it happened in some other

 6     municipalities, too, where Muslims remained living together with the

 7     Serbs?  It was actually the case in many municipalities of the

 8     Bosnian Krajina.

 9        A.   Cannot authenticate that.  I don't know.

10        Q.   But can you then confirm that you are unaware of any

11     municipalities where the situation was not such?

12        A.   No, Dr. Karadzic, the narrative talks of one particular meeting

13     where my office was full of Bosnian officials from Sanski Most, from

14     Bosanska Krupa, from Bosanski Novi, from Prijedor, from others.  They

15     brought me numbers, names, and lists.  One of the most memorable one

16     again is in the narrative, is a computer-printed list of the people they

17     wanted out, numbering 7.782 from name number 1.  So I don't support the

18     point being made that we didn't hear it from anywhere else.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Dr. Kirudja, please answer this question

20     only:  Do you know or did you know then that in Bosanska Krajina there

21     were municipalities in which Muslims and Serbs lived together where

22     nothing happened?  Yes or no?  Did you know that there was a number of

23     such municipalities?

24        A.   Your Honour, I can't give you a yes or no because of the use of

25     the word "Bosanska Krajina".  Bosanska Krajina is a name encompassing

Page 21305

 1     those same, the opstinas that I named.  There are five of them from

 2     Cazin, Bosanska most -- Sanski Most, and other, and Krupa, so when you

 3     rephrase them with this a collective name, the answer remains the way I

 4     answered earlier, we were hearing same things from those areas.

 5        Q.   Let me put it this way, Dr. Kirudja, were you aware of the

 6     existence of a demi-state formation called the Autonomous Region of

 7     the Krajina containing some 20 odd municipalities?

 8        A.   Yes, but in an entirely different context.

 9        Q.   Do you know that the municipalities you enumerated save for Cazin

10     were part of the ARK?

11        A.   I didn't know every detail about it and, as I said, not wanting

12     to prolong my answers, it was an entirely different context, I came to

13     learn on that.

14        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, it has to do with what you state in paragraph 79.

15     You imply that there was a plan on a higher level, as well as a policy

16     and instruction.  I'm asking you, therefore, this:  Do you know -- are

17     you familiar with the structure of the RS at the time?  Did you know of

18     the existence of the ARK comprising some 20 municipalities and that many

19     municipalities did not have this particular problem?

20        A.   I would like to return the answer on paragraph 79 to the context

21     in which it was given.  Your Honour, you note it was a session with the

22     Judges on the Bench and the question was coming from one of the Judges,

23     El Mahdi, it was a simple question whether I thought, he wanted to know,

24     the SDS was playing a part in the events that I was telling them, and the

25     answer speaks for itself, it begins with people come in, they would

Page 21306

 1     identify themselves, who they were, and then they will say what they

 2     wanted.  And the rest I don't want to repeat the answer.  That's the

 3     context in which the answer was given.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Hence you concluded that the inescapable conclusion

 5     was that they acted under instruction and policy from a higher body, a

 6     higher instance; correct?

 7        A.   At least from somebody else, not themselves, because they will

 8     come over and over again on the same matter.  They will receive the same

 9     answer from me that we can't do this.  They will ask who the superiors

10     were.  We will tell them, you can go all the way to the Secretary-General

11     and you will not hear a different answer to the question whether you can

12     force people to move away from their homes.  Having gone that -- over and

13     over again, the conclusion was these people were being -- on a policy to

14     do something they themselves may not want to pursue personally that long

15     and in the way they were doing.

16        Q.   Mr. Kirudja, let us be precise, please.  What is -- or what was

17     this centre which in your conclusion led this policy or put it in place?

18        A.   My answer contains the answer to Dr. Karadzic.  I said somebody,

19     not that somebody I knew.  It was your acting under a force driven by

20     something else.  Doesn't mean that I knew who that somebody else was, and

21     I don't at this moment say that I do know that.  I don't.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Given the fact that we are discussing the context of

23     the SDS, did you know that in April at the very beginning of the war on

24     the prime minister's request, the SDS froze its activities until February

25     1993?  Did you know that or not?

Page 21307

 1        A.   I didn't, Dr. Karadzic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the eastern part of

 3     Republika Srpska as well as Pale and Srpsko Sarajevo could not

 4     communicate with the western part in Banja Luka, Bosanski Novi and

 5     adjacent municipalities by phone, all the way until September 1992?

 6        A.   To September 1992?

 7        Q.   Yes.  For example, the corridor was closed until the 1st of July,

 8     1992, and it only became safe in September, and telephone communication

 9     was up and running in September as well, and when I say that, I mean

10     communication between the eastern and western parts of Republika Srpska.

11        A.   I wouldn't know those details.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 6688.

14     There should be a translation.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we have the translation.  We

17     can just keep the translation there then.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Please focus on this, on the 18th of June, 1992, the

20     Municipal Assembly -- so, the Municipal Assembly already met and the

21     Crisis Staff is its organ, an organ of the regular authorities.  Look at

22     what it says here, paragraph 2:

23             [As read] "with regard to the Muslim population of the Bosanski

24     Novi municipality, the following positions of the SDS Municipal Board

25     have been adopted:

Page 21308

 1             "First, that citizens of Muslim ethnicity may voluntarily leave

 2     the Bosanski Novi municipality in an organised and civilised manner.

 3             "Secondly, that any activities directed at forceful expulsion

 4     were strictly banned."

 5             And so on and so forth.

 6             And ultimately:  "4, the Bosanski Novi public security station

 7     and military police command have been instructed to establish public law

 8     and order in Bosanski Novi and ensure the security of its inhabitants."

 9     Does paragraph 4 imply that public law and order have not been

10     established yet and that the security of the citizens had not been

11     ensured as yet?

12        A.   One thing I note, Your Honour, on this memo, the date.  The date

13     is June 1992.  The beginning of this discussion with Mayor Pasic began

14     much earlier in May.  The letter that warned, we just went through that

15     letter, the letter that warned Mr. Pasic that what was being done could

16     be considered a crime against humanity, I forget its date.  Can I have

17     that date, please?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The letter -- 20th of June, 1992.

19             THE WITNESS:  20th of June, 1992.  And this letter on the monitor

20     is June what?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The 18th of June.  Two days before your letter.

23        A.   Two days before.  We had already gone through this.  We had

24     notified many of our -- the people we spoke to.  This was not something

25     that was going to find favour inside the international community.  And

Page 21309

 1     each time we did this and the narrative shows, they would soften with

 2     statements like:  "We'll do the right thing."  "We are mayor for all

 3     people."  And this letter coming towards that end, which I had never seen

 4     before, I'm seeing it for the first time, reflects moving events from the

 5     time when this matter came up.  That's how I -- my impression of it.

 6     Why?  Because some of the things being said there were never said to us

 7     at the time when we met Mr. Pasic, the author of this letter.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Kirudja.  That will do as far as I'm concerned,

 9     but I'm asking about these conclusions that you drew without us giving

10     you a full picture.  Look at this, Dr. Kirudja, this is the 18th of June,

11     this is a conclusion, it's not a letter, it's a conclusion.  It's a

12     binding conclusion of a state authority from a session that was held on

13     the 16th of June.  So there was no initiative that was launched from

14     elsewhere.  The Serb Democratic Party discussed this and this was

15     ultimately adopted by the Municipal Assembly.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, can this be admitted.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, let me ask you, in paragraph 79 you say, "the

19     milicija as they call it."  Do you mean when you say "milicija," do you

20     mean "militia" as the meaning is elsewhere in the world?  But do you know

21     that in our country, the regular police used to be called "milicija,"

22     "militia"?

23        A.   Sorry, Dr. Karadzic, paragraph 79 has a reference to "milicija"?

24        Q.   Yes, yes.  [In English] "And since they identify themselves as

25     the SDS or members of the militia or what they called ..."

Page 21310

 1        A.   Yes, yes, thank you.  Thank you, Dr. Karadzic.  Yes, I understand

 2     that "milicija" in the context you explained referred to the regular

 3     police.  This was a transcription of something I said live so the

 4     spelling not necessarily different from the pronunciation, as you can

 5     see, it's a transcript of something, not a document.  Something I said

 6     live.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] So we do agree that you did not mean a party

 8     militia of the SDS?  You meant the regular police force, the state police

 9     force that was called "milicija"?

10        A.   Right.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  This

12     document.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Let that be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1916, Your Honours.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you agree that there is a reference here to this civilised and

19     organised manner of -- of having the population move out, and may I

20     remind you that the same wording is contained in the agreement of the

21     22nd of May, that made it binding on all three of us, all three parties

22     to act in that way?

23        A.   I note what the document says is what you say, Dr. Karadzic.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at

Page 21311

 1     65 ter 6705.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You mentioned -- or actually in that UNHCR document there is a

 4     reference to the Red Cross.  So let us see now a document of the

 5     Bosanski Novi municipality Red Cross dated the 7th of June, 1992.  Yes,

 6     please take a look at this.  This is a piece of information and it

 7     describes what was happening in Bosanski Novi where military operations

 8     were underway against Muslim extremists.  There is a large concentration

 9     of Muslim people in Blagaj, their accommodation in Blagaj is temporary

10     because the representatives of the displaced Muslims have asked for

11     voluntary resettlement in Croatia.  And then further on that's what that

12     paragraph says.  Then a bit further down, it says:

13             [As read] "Also, operations are underway to cleanse the area

14     around Blagaj of Muslim extremists who are hiding in the surrounding

15     woods.  Due to these operations there is a real danger of some groups

16     getting out of the command and control mechanism and threatening the

17     safety of people in Blagaj.  It is proposed that the operation of

18     volunteer resettlement to Banja Luka should continue, using their own

19     means of transport or transport organised by the Crisis Staff."

20             Further on, it says that one group -- actually, it says, "It is

21     necessary that a convoy be set up by no later than" et cetera et cetera,

22     and be escorted to Banja Luka by the military and police.  Evacuation of

23     the population from Bosanski Novi, Republika Srpska, to Banja Luka in

24     Republika Srpska, would you call that ethnic cleansing?

25        A.   Dr. Karadzic, it's a long, long statement and I'm wondering the

Page 21312

 1     "it" in the last bit of your statement, would you call that, that

 2     referring to what, ethnic cleansing, because it's a wrong statement.

 3     What do I attribute "that" to be in reference to?

 4        Q.   I'll deal with it slowly.  Do you know that in our Law on Defence

 5     there is an obligation on the part of the authorities to evacuate

 6     civilians from combat areas into an area where there is no combat?

 7     Regardless of whether the population wanted to be evacuated or not, they

 8     have to be evacuated just like in America when there's a hurricane

 9     coming.  Did you know that?

10        A.   Dr. Karadzic, I wouldn't know what your law says about that

11     specific issue.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And let us move on to this now:  If the population is

13     asked to move for the sake of their own safety from one Serbian

14     municipality into another Serbian municipality, is that ethnic cleansing?

15        A.   It would be self-evident if they are being moved for safety from

16     one part of Serbian-controlled areas to another.  I guess it would be

17     self-evident and would need no defence.

18        Q.   You would not call that ethnic cleansing; right?

19        A.   Not if people are being moved from, say, a natural disaster to a

20     safer area.

21        Q.   Do you consider war to be a natural disaster?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   And if I tell you that our law states that it is compulsory for

24     civilians to be evacuated from war zones, would you accept that that is

25     the duty of the authorities to act accordingly even if it is an unnatural

Page 21313

 1     disaster?

 2        A.   Depends where you are moving them.  If you cross international

 3     borders, your law wouldn't be applicable outside your jurisdiction.

 4        Q.   But in this case in Republika Srpska if they are being moved from

 5     one municipality to another is that ethnic cleansing or is that in

 6     accordance with the law?

 7        A.   It's a circular question, Dr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted.

 9     This document.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.  It will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1917, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly have a look at

15     P2737.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You mentioned Bosanska Krupa as well, right, and you also had

18     some refugees from Bosanska Krupa; right?

19        A.   I did refer to them being notified of refugees coming from

20     Bosanska Krupa, yes.

21        Q.   Please focus on this order.  The president of the War Presidency

22     of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa.  Let me ask you something,

23     Mr. Kirudja, do you know in this case of Bosanska Krupa when one says

24     Serb municipality, do you know what that means?  Or should I help you?

25     Do you know that that's the proposal of the Serb side, for these big

Page 21314

 1     municipalities to have two or three municipalities, and that the

 2     Serb Municipality of Bosanska Krupa only means the Serb part of that

 3     municipality?

 4        A.   In the document you are displaying, Dr. Karadzic, or in general?

 5        Q.   Generally speaking, Dr. Kirudja, if one says Serb municipality,

 6     did you know that this meant within the same municipality what was

 7     envisaged was that there should also be a Muslim municipality and a

 8     Croatian municipality or a Muslim and Croatian municipality?  Did you

 9     know that this prefix "Serb" only pertained to part of the municipality

10     that had a majority Serb population?

11        A.   I can't comment on that except in the areas where I was in the

12     UNPA, if you place that question under UNPA, the answer is no, it

13     wouldn't mean that because that was the order that prevailed before

14     people went to war, under municipality was a municipality wholesome,

15     inclusive of all citizens who lived in that municipality.  The

16     distinction whether it was Serb or somebody else's was as a result of the

17     fighting and part of the issue that brought us there, making that

18     specific distinction.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I agree about Croatia, or rather the Serb Krajina,

20     but you are testifying about Bosnia, and now I'm asking you the

21     following:  I mean, I'm not attacking you for not knowing, but did you

22     know what it means when it says the Serb municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

23     Did you know that it did not pertain to all of Bosanska Krupa but only

24     the Serb part of the municipality?  The right bank of the Una river?

25        A.   I accept your characterisation of it.

Page 21315

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at this, this is an order issued

 2     to the commanders of the 2nd, 4th and 5th Battalion of the

 3     1st Podgrmec Brigade to evacuate the Muslim population in the territory

 4     of Budimlic Japra, Kamengrad and Fajtevci.  Did you know that

 5     Budimlic Japra, Kamengrad and Fajtevci are parts of Sanski Most, that was

 6     also under Serb control?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us please have a look at

10     65 ter 6733.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Yes.  Please take a look at this.  This is the Municipal Assembly

13     of Bosanski Novi and the Crisis Staff is an organ of that

14     Municipal Assembly, rather it replaces the Executive Board, and this is a

15     report on the work of the Crisis Staff during this period of time.

16     Please focus on the second paragraph.  The second paragraph, it says:

17     "Other important issues".  At that moment it was not easy to give an

18     answer to them, where is Alija Izetbegovic's policy leading us to, and

19     the other side is armed with what kind of weapons, and what it says here

20     is that it was agreed that our positions and policy have to be joint ones

21     and that we should not allow for different streams to exist, hardline,

22     softline, and that we have to deal with criminals of all kinds,

23     especially arms smugglers.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21316

 1        Q.   Did you know about this analysis?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Please take a look at this, where it says in the beginning of May

 4     the 4th of May, 1992, concrete talks started with the SDA in relation to

 5     the security situation.  Do you agree that for already a month there had

 6     been a war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the 6th of April onwards?  For all

 7     of one month there had been a war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas here in

 8     Bosanski Novi there was no war?

 9        A.   I didn't know that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at this.  Here it says what the

11     SDS and the SDA talked about.  And what was mostly discussed was the

12     involvement of the SDA and the arming of the Muslim people.  And they

13     denied it.  And that was not accepted.  Then a bit further down, it says

14     that a curfew was imposed from 2200 hours until 5.00 a.m. and all

15     persons, armed persons and paramilitary formations were asked to hand

16     over their weapons by the 11th of May at the latest.  And a bit further

17     down it says there was a problem of the functioning of the

18     Executive Board because the president was on sick leave and so on and so

19     forth.  Then he resigned, whereas members and candidates of the SDA

20     obstructed the work of that committee.  Do you see that already then on

21     the 4th of May, an order was being issued to disarm those who had been

22     armed illegally?

23        A.   I have already testified the narrative does already reflect the

24     summary from the mayor, Pasic, up to what happened on the 11th of May, at

25     least that dead-line.  Yes, I had been informed of that.  Not from this

Page 21317

 1     source that is displayed here, but from the testimony -- from the meeting

 2     that I did with mayor of Bosanski Novi.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page and then

 5     the bottom of the next page.

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm just thinking in -- so that

 8     Mr. Karadzic doesn't continually read out slabs of this document, perhaps

 9     we could rise early and the English translation could be given to

10     Dr. Kirudja to review over the lunch break and then Mr. Karadzic could

11     perhaps put some questions to Dr. Kirudja on it.  And by the way, it's

12     Exhibit P2632.  And the previous document that was put to Dr. Kirudja,

13     65 ter number 6724 is Exhibit P2737.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I'm sure that would assist Dr. Kirudja.

15     Would that assist you, Dr. Karadzic?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it would be of assistance,

17     thank you, but I wonder about something else because there are a great

18     many documents that have to do with Dr. Kirudja's service and his

19     superior, Mr. Thornberry, who most probably will not be testifying,

20     although we have been notified that he would be testifying.  Could we

21     kindly ask Dr. Kirudja to look at a bundle of these documents just to

22     confirm their authenticity and then we could deal with them through a bar

23     table motion so that we wouldn't have to call up each and every one of

24     them.  Would that be feasible, although in this way we would take away

25     Dr. Kirudja's lunch break, or can he look at it later and just say

Page 21318

 1     whether that's it?

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Dr. Kirudja, I don't want to deprive you

 3     of your lunch --

 4             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, if it's okay with you, lunch is not

 5     such an important component of my life.  But if others feel differently,

 6     of course I'm not the only one who will eat lunch.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I mean, eating and reading at the same

 8     time is of course potentially possible, Dr. Karadzic's suggestion,

 9     subject to anything that the Prosecution might say seems to me to be an

10     eminently sensible way of saving a large chunk of your time.

11             Ms. Sutherland.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't know that authenticity is

13     in issue in relation to the UNPROFOR documents, so I wonder what the

14     utility of the exercise would be?

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I anticipated a degree of authenticity

16     might have been in issue from the nature of Dr. Karadzic's suggestion.

17             Dr. Karadzic, is that right?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency.  Indeed.  I

19     resisted offering many documents from the civilian affairs department of

20     the UN because I expected Mr. Thornberry to come as a witness, however, I

21     see that he is no longer on the witness list and I lost this chance of

22     having these documents exhibited earlier on.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, of course, there's huge difference between

24     authenticity and agreeing the contents of the documents.  One would

25     anticipate, I don't speak for him, I'm speaking generally, that

Page 21319

 1     Dr. Kirudja is not going to deny the authenticity of the documents or

 2     disagree with the authenticity of the documents, nor if it's his document

 3     disagree with the contents.  But if there is some utility in what you

 4     suggest and it is going to enable you not to have to put those documents

 5     to Dr. Kirudja during the course of his testimony, it may still be a

 6     worthwhile exercise.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, in that case I

 8     would definitely prepare all those documents.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I mean, since the witness has acquiesced in

11     this, I'm simply concerned about any effort to conflate issues here so

12     that there's confusion about what has happened, as Ms. Sutherland noted,

13     there hasn't been in the past, that I am aware of, dispute about the

14     authenticity of UN documents.  We don't anticipate such here.  It doesn't

15     change the protocol for bar table submissions or cross-examination.  I'm

16     really not sure what is being accomplished.  But if there's, as the Court

17     has noted, some aspect here that is being missed and that might be

18     facilitated by the witness's review, of course we don't object.  At the

19     same time, I think it is a difficult task to be a witness.  Everyone else

20     is going to take a break.  This witness should be permitted to at least,

21     I guess, take a short break so that he can continue with the concentrated

22     task of giving evidence when we resume.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  Seems that Dr. Kirudja is made of stern

24     stuff, from what he says, so if there is going to be -- I can't quite

25     identify or focus on the utility myself at the moment but that may be a

Page 21320

 1     defect in my observations rather than anything else, but if it is going

 2     to save time in the long run, maybe it can be done.  Our thanks to

 3     Dr. Kirudja for undertaking the task and we'll break now until 1.35.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe I can suggest that some of it

 5     can be looked at by Dr. Kirudja in hard copy during the court session and

 6     maybe he can say yes, this is a document that reflects what I experienced

 7     or what the civilian affairs did.  Maybe he can -- does not have to use

 8     his entire break for this exercise.  I'm really embarrassed now for

 9     having suggested that he should use his free time to do this.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  I don't think your embarrassment is reflected in

11     Dr. Kirudja's own feelings, so see how we get on.  You give the documents

12     to Dr. Kirudja or facilitate the giving of the documents to Dr. Kirudja

13     that you think he is going to be useful for him to peruse over the lunch

14     break and we will meet again at 1.35.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.38 p.m.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I'm sorry we are starting a

18     few minutes later than anticipated, but now we are on track and.  Were

19     you able to have any useful dealings with the witness in terms of what he

20     was able to read over the lunch period?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  We

22     perused the documents that we managed to print out.  I believe that

23     Dr. Kirudja is familiar with all of them and we will able to use them

24     later.  Maybe Dr. Kirudja can tell us whether he is satisfied with what

25     he saw, in other words, that he saw what he needed to see in order to

Page 21321

 1     confirm the authenticity of the documents.

 2             In the meantime, I would like to have a document admitted.  It is

 3     23030.  This is a UNHCR letter to Mr. Pasic.  We already saw the document

 4     before the break.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, that can be admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1918, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Kirudja.  Thank you for your assistance over

 8     the lunch break.  Are you able to assist with any comment?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I'm not sure how you want to go over

10     the documents.  Yes, I have received the documents and there would be no

11     difficulties for me to validate the authenticity, though some of them

12     were written a long long time ago, the content will slowly come to me if

13     they became relevant for discussion, but by looking at them it is not too

14     difficult to authenticate their authenticity.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you very much.  We'll leave it in

16     Dr. Karadzic's hands a to which of them he wants to produce with you, and

17     which he doesn't.  Thank you.

18             Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to call up

20     65 ter 6732.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, I'm very sorry that you couldn't -- did not see all

23     the documents issued by the authorities in Bosanski Novi.  If you had

24     been able to do that, I'm sure that you would realise that chaos reigned

25     there, there was a state of civil war.  As you said it yourself, war

Page 21322

 1     approached Bosanski Novi, there was war going on in many municipality --

 2     many settlements in the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Novi.

 3     You said that yourself?

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  One moment.

 5             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry to interrupt, Dr. Kirudja could have

 7     answered the question, but I'd simply wanted to advise that

 8     65 ter number 6732 is part of Defence exhibit D00470.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And I do apologise for interrupting in between

11     the question and answer.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Kirudja.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Dr. Karadzic for your comment about what

14     I may have or may have not concluded had I seen of some of the documents

15     that were internal to the officers of the Serbian Republic or

16     Srpska Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I am not sure how that plays

17     out in hindsight, looking at documents in hindsight, so I'll let his

18     comments stand as it is, as a possibility that I may reach a different

19     conclusion, although I'm not sure about that.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Please pay attention to line 10 where it says 1500

22     hours.  There is a description of the activity on the volunteer surrender

23     of weapons with mixed result and it says that the military police

24     reported that they had been attacked, and then on the 24th of May, the

25     entire population from the villages in the valley of the Japra was

Page 21323

 1     accommodated in the central part of Blagaj Japra, and then it says that

 2     on the 2nd of June, forces of the municipal staff of Bosanski Novi

 3     Territorial Defence and the military police, without the knowledge of the

 4     Bosanski Novi public security station and without consultation with it,

 5     brought in citizens who were not ethnically Serbian to the Mlakve

 6     stadium.  It is also stated here that ac cording to their information,

 7     the Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence carried out this action in

 8     order to stop uncontrolled groups and individuals who, apart from

 9     retaliating against the population, were committing acts of wanton

10     destruction against all buildings.  Furthermore, it says on the following

11     page that that centre was disbanded on the 5th of June which means three

12     days after it was set up.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And everybody went home, save for 17 persons who were kept on the

16     premises of the military police.  It also says here that the citizens had

17     at their disposal both the sports and the social facilities of the

18     football club and were regularly provided with food and water.  Further

19     on there is a reference -- just a moment, bear with me.  On the 24th of

20     May, again around 4.000 inhabitants, yes, it is here, but I believe that

21     the translation is really bad.  On the 24th of May, around 4.000

22     inhabitants left their homes and became refugees.  They went to the

23     central part of the village of Blagaj and then, on the 9th of June, it

24     was agreed that they would go to the railway station, they would board 22

25     railway carriages and they would be transported in the direction of

Page 21324

 1     Doboj.

 2             Did you know that the first time they refused to go to Doboj and

 3     then the second time accepted to go to Doboj?  The difference between the

 4     two events was 17 days.  First they refused to be taken to Doboj, they

 5     returned to their homes, and then 17 days later, they agreed to be

 6     transported to Doboj.

 7        A.   Dr. Karadzic, is your question to me to confirm that they did

 8     what you said they did?

 9        Q.   No, no.  I just wanted to know whether you knew that a train was

10     brought in, that they were offered to be taken to Doboj but they refused

11     to board the train, they went home because they wanted to go to Croatia.

12     Did you know that the first time around they refused to be transported to

13     Banja Luka because they wanted to be taken to Croatia.  They spent 17

14     days at home before they eventually decided that they would agree to be

15     transported to Doboj.

16        A.   I don't know that particular detail that Dr. Karadzic has

17     described to the Court, but I would like to add one clarification.  About

18     that same period he is talking about, those very people were also

19     engaging us with a different story.  The first time they formed an SOS in

20     the field, observed by military observers, Danish, and from the war, and

21     that drew our attention and from there we were receiving their story.

22     That's not to say I know or don't know what Dr. Karadzic is saying.  I

23     want Dr. Karadzic to be aware about that time we were also looking and we

24     were receiving a different story from those.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come to that.  I only want to know whether you

Page 21325

 1     knew that they were in a position to refuse, that they indeed refused to

 2     travel in the depth of the Republika Srpska because they wanted to go to

 3     Croatia.  If you didn't know that, I would find that fact important as

 4     well.  You didn't know that, did you?

 5        A.   I didn't know what they were refusing to do.  They said to us

 6     they were refusing to do different things than the one you -- it may be

 7     true they were refusing what you are saying, but they said they were

 8     refusing to do other things too.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In your testimony so far you have confirmed that the

10     causes of the migration of the population were civil war and chaos that

11     reigned supreme in the area; is that correct?  You also stated that the

12     civilian population under the war were suffering and continued to suffer

13     due to the large number of cases despite a cease-fire.  You said that,

14     for example, in the Brdjanin case on the 10th of February -- or rather,

15     2003 on page 14580.  I'm going to read in English, just a little bit.

16     You explained at the time that a larger number of displaced people were a

17     result of war primarily in Croatia and subsequently a result of war in

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina and that there were a lot of Serbs who were

19     refugees; is that correct?

20        A.   Dr. Karadzic, the last statement that you have made is correct,

21     if you characterise my testimony as implying what is stated in the last

22     statement, but it is not correct at the beginning of your statement that

23     my testimony confirmed the causes of migration of the population were

24     civil war and chaos that reigned supreme in the area.  It's not a proper

25     characterisation of my testimony.  My testimony was I wanted to know the

Page 21326

 1     causes of why they were moving and I was asking what the causes were.  I

 2     was not naming the causes.  I asked where is the pressure coming from,

 3     why do they want to move.  That's a characterisation of my testimony.

 4        Q.   Did you not say in the Brdjanin case on page 14584 that if

 5     somebody found themselves embroiled in a conflict they would want to move

 6     somewhere, for example, to Austria or Germany where their family resided

 7     or anywhere else where there was no conflict and that would not be an

 8     unusual thing to experience, didn't you say that?

 9        A.   Your Honour, I need an exact reference for where I said that.  I

10     have a feeling that there is something missing.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland, I anticipate you were rising for

12     just that point.

13             Do you have an exact reference, Dr. Karadzic?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page numbers 14584 in the Brdjanin

15     case and it was recorded on the 10th of February, 2003, or actually, on

16     the 13th of February.  In e-court, it is 6522681.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   There is a reference to a United Nations report from 1991 where

19     it is stated that that was not an unusual thing to see.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if Mr. Karadzic isn't going to

21     bring the page up in e-court, Dr. Kirudja's taken to a document in

22     cross-examination and then his answer is "that is what the report

23     states."  That's the only answer that he gives on page 14584.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  I don't think that's going to assist the

25     witness.

Page 21327

 1             THE WITNESS:  That's what made me feel that there was something

 2     missing in the earlier characterisation of my testimony.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   However, do you agree with me that you could find that in the

 6     United Nations report and that your answer was to the following effect,

 7     that if there is a war going on and if somebody finds themselves in the

 8     midst of the situation that it wouldn't be unusual for that person to

 9     want to go to Germany or Austria where their families reside, for

10     example, or to another area where there was no war or conflict?

11        A.   If my testimony appears as you have put it in those very words, I

12     would be surprised to include Germany or Austria if I was speaking in

13     generalities, that is it human to try to escape from danger.  That's all

14     it says, if you wanted a brief short of it.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again it's a Defence question which

17     puts a proposition and then the answer is as it -- Dr. Kirudja asks the

18     question:  "You mean as a general question?"  And then the answer is yes.

19     And then Dr. Kirudja's answer, he said:  "No, it wouldn't be."  So I

20     think that Mr. Karadzic needs to actually bring the pages up on the

21     screen if he is going to put questions -- prior transcript to the

22     witness.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic, you can't ascribe a question

24     to the witness unless he adopts the whole of the question in his answer.

25     It's patently unfair to do that and doesn't assist.

Page 21328

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, we will leave this topic

 2     aside for the time being.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Is it correct that Muslim representatives told you that they

 5     wanted to go to third countries for various reasons because of fighting,

 6     for economic reasons, because of some uncontrolled individuals that the

 7     Serbian authorities tried to put under their control but failed in that

 8     attempt; is that correct?

 9        A.   It is not correct that Muslim representatives told me what

10     follows in that sentence.  I have gone to painful length to mention time

11     and time again, Muslims interests were being relayed to me by Serbs, not

12     Muslims themselves saying to me this is what we want to do, with the

13     exception of the refugees who would find they have been able to escape

14     and before we take them to safety we would ask what was going on and

15     where do you want to go.  With that clarification, some of them will say,

16     we want to go somewhere in Europe or some other named places in Europe.

17     Not a Muslim representative talking about we want to go to Germany or

18     Austria.  I want that clarification made.

19        Q.   Did they tell you that they wanted to leave for economic

20     hardships because they were poor?  Did they also say to you that they

21     were afraid of retaliation for every Serb who died in the front line?

22     Did they say that up to that time the Serbian authorities managed to

23     prevent any such attempts of retaliation and that they said that their

24     movement should not be considered ethnic cleansing but rather that it

25     should be put in the context of threats on their life?

Page 21329

 1        A.   Thank you, Dr. Karadzic.  I think you are talking about a very

 2     specific report of the narrative where a Muslim representative somewhere

 3     in Kostajnica met with me and my colleagues.  He was an engineer by

 4     profession, and he had been selected by the Serbs and he was talking very

 5     deferentially about the Serbs beginning his statement with, "I've been

 6     authorised to say this ...," and I took note of that.  And in that case

 7     what Dr. Karadzic is saying is correct, he would say, we need to leave

 8     because of economic reasons.  We need not to be here if there is a

 9     fighting and as long as Serbs are killed we fear there will be

10     repercussions.

11             If that's what Dr. Karadzic is talking about, yes, it does appear

12     in my testimony, but within the context I have described.

13        Q.   You said this in paragraph 105 of your statement, you mention

14     engineer Saflic and then in paragraph 109 you say that a certain Muslim

15     representative then added that they fear reprisals each time Serbs are

16     killed at the confrontation line.  And it also says that, so far, the

17     Serbian authorities have managed to prevent such reprisals.  Did you hear

18     that from that same Muslim or from some other Muslim?

19        A.   Thank you, Dr. Karadzic, I couldn't have remembered the

20     paragraphs where this story was.  Yes, that's in the context which that

21     story was told, and no, I, at this moment, wouldn't be able to say it was

22     the only person who said that in the entire engagement that I had.  If

23     there was somebody else who may have said it elsewhere in a different

24     context, that may also be entirely possible.  But I want to repeat, there

25     were people who had been brought by Serbian people in authority and you

Page 21330

 1     could see they were trying very much to be correct, to be deferential,

 2     and to say the right things.

 3        Q.   So you would say that that was an artificial situation and you

 4     did not trust such Muslims, you didn't believe their stories, did you?

 5        A.   Absolutely not, Dr. Karadzic.  When people are frightened, there

 6     is nothing artificial about it.  I believed what they were saying, but it

 7     wouldn't amount to the wishes of general Muslims.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  But in paragraph 113, for example, you say that

 9     Islamcevic told you that he was authorised to request that UNPROFOR

10     escort the convoy.  You say this:

11             [In English] [As read] "He claimed that those requesting

12     evacuation Did not want to go from one part of BiH to another.  That they

13     had guarantees from relatives to support them elsewhere, that the Serbian

14     authorities were treating them fairly and that they wanted to ensure that

15     no one was taken from the convoy until they reached Karlovac."

16        A.   It's my testimony and I'm saying exactly that.  But I knew I had

17     received this kind of request whether they were in the company of Serbs

18     or they were alone, as long as they are in the territory controlled by

19     the Serbs, they would not breathe a sigh of relief until they get out,

20     and they measured their words, what they said.  They didn't know who was

21     listening and who would say anything.  So we took what they were saying,

22     and you can see this is my testimony, I cannot say this is somebody

23     else's.  It's my testimony.  This is what happened, but I'm

24     characterising it, what it meant to us.  Often we would keep them under

25     civil police guards until they got out.  There was a reason for that,

Page 21331

 1     they were fearful for their lives.

 2        Q.   However, Dr. Kirudja, the way you understood things, that was a

 3     very subjective thing and it depended on your willingness to believe one

 4     thing or the other.  For example, people believe in God only if they want

 5     to believe in God.  If you want to believe that that was the case, then

 6     you believed it.  But I'm putting it to you that here somebody told you

 7     that they didn't want to be moved to a different part of Bosnia but that

 8     they had guarantees from their families to join them somewhere else.  Are

 9     you denying that?  Wouldn't this mean that they really wanted and

10     requested to go somewhere outside of Bosnia, and you have just told us

11     that they didn't ask you to be transferred abroad?

12        A.   I think you have misunderstood me, Dr. Karadzic.  I didn't say

13     any of that.  I said that I believe that's what they wanted, and if they

14     wanted a safe passage, we would provide it.  It's not that they didn't

15     say wanted to go where they wanted to go.  What I'm telling the Court is

16     that Dr. Karadzic also is saying that was the general wish of the Muslims

17     and that's my only point of difference with what he is saying.

18        Q.   With all due respect, Dr. Kirudja, I have to make a distinction

19     between your subjective impression and irrefutable facts.  This is

20     something that is mandatory in a criminal proceedings.  I'm putting it to

21     you that when people left Bosnia they didn't want to be repatriated, and

22     that with that goal in mind, they would say anything, they would say that

23     there were no conditions in place for their repatriation.  Do you agree

24     with that?

25        A.   I think, Your Honour, I've said all I'm going to say on that

Page 21332

 1     point and Mr. Karadzic's point is noted.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, again, you are asking the witness

 3     to, as it were, speculate about what people may or may not have had as a

 4     genuine agenda as opposed to what they said to him.  All the witness can

 5     tell the Court is what people said to him at the time.  And I think this

 6     topic really is exhausted now.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I've

 8     been encouraged by the witness himself because he, himself, speculates

 9     about Muslim intentions, so if he can speculate on that, I suppose that

10     he can speculate on other things as well.  But let's move on.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you know, Dr. Kirudja, that there's not a single place in

13     Bosnia where a certain number of Muslims did not stay living peacefully

14     until the very end of the war?

15        A.   I wouldn't be able to say that.

16        Q.   But you can tell us whether you know or whether you don't know.

17     Are you saying that you don't know that in Republika Srpska in every

18     single place a certain significant number of Muslims stayed because they

19     didn't want to go anywhere?  I'm not saying that that was indeed the

20     case, I'm just asking you whether you knew that that was the case?

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  I am sorry, Dr. Karadzic, that's a -- a very

22     bizarre question.  It's complete non sequitur.  It's an unanswerable

23     question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21333

 1        Q.   Do you know, Dr. Kirudja, that in the Federation of

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina no single Serbian place remained standing, whereas

 3     in Republika Srpska there are a lot of Muslim and Croatian villages that

 4     nobody touched?

 5        A.   Same answer.  I will never be able to say that.  No single place,

 6     I will never be able to utter that statement as a statement of truth.

 7        Q.   I'm putting it to you, Mr. Kirudja, that that is the truth, but I

 8     would like to hear it from you as a person who has a standpoint, who had

 9     a view, who wrote reports.  I would like to know whether you knew that?

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The witness has already answered the question.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  The witness has already answered that question,

13     Dr. Karadzic, but you've got to be very cautious.  Putting a statement as

14     if it was an established fact and then asking the witness if he knew it

15     is not a true question.  First of all, it assumes that the leading part

16     of the question is in fact factually true, and secondly, if the witness

17     denies it, that's the end of the matter.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent, Your Excellency, but in

19     my layperson's understanding of the law, I will be able to prove that

20     many villages remained intact, for example, Srbac, Sipovo, and we heard

21     that from Muslim witnesses here.  I have time, I want to prove whether

22     there's any grounds for Mr. Kirudja's conclusions.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Kirudja, as I understand it is not making

24     conclusions.  He is saying he can't answer, he can't confirm something

25     which he doesn't know to be the case.  If you are going to, in due

Page 21334

 1     course, adduce evidence as opposed to comment that a certain matter is

 2     true, then that's a different -- completely different matter, but that's

 3     not the object of the cross-examination of this witness.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

 5     Your Excellency, I would like to establish how Dr. Kirudja formed his

 6     opinions.  Was it based on his overall knowledge of the situation,

 7     thorough knowledge of the situation, or partial knowledge of the

 8     situation.  Let me ask him.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did you know, Dr. Kirudja, that Catholic and Muslim officials

11     still live in the Republika Srpska whereas Orthodox church officials

12     cannot be found anywhere in the Federation?  Do you know that?

13        A.   Once again I will not be able to answer that and let me be very

14     specific, I need to be in every place to answer that question.  I have

15     never been in every place.  So it wouldn't be possible to answer the

16     question.

17        Q.   Thank you, do you know that we initiated and always accepted

18     other people's initiatives for all the sides to commit themselves to

19     allow the return of all refugees once the final peace accord was signed?

20        A.   It's the first time I'm hearing from you that this was so.  I

21     didn't know before.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that such an obligation was not up to

23     the municipal authorities, but rather to the central authorities of

24     Republika Srpska who actually negotiated both with the international

25     community and with the other two parties?

Page 21335

 1        A.   No, I wouldn't know what was transpiring between the municipal

 2     authorities and the central authorities.

 3        Q.   Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  I do not mean negotiations

 4     between the municipal and central authorities, but would you agree me

 5     that the right of return was something that was negotiated at the level

 6     of the central government of all three parties and not at the municipal

 7     level?

 8        A.   No, I wouldn't know that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 111, you say that in Topusko you met --

10     you and UNHCR met with a delegation of Serbs and Muslims from

11     Sanski Most, Bosanska Krupa and Prijedor.  Would you please take a look

12     at that paragraph.  And there you also say that you also met with

13     Vlado Vrkes and Dragan Majkic, police chief of Sanski Most, with

14     Mr. Besim Islamcevic, representatives of Muslims and Croats, who wanted

15     to leave Sanski Most.  Mr. Esad Hasanovic, who was also representative,

16     or rather, he was in Sanski Most where he found himself after he left

17     Bosanska Krupa; is that correct?  Would you agree this Hasanovic person

18     fled from Bosanska Krupa to Sanski Most which was in Republika Srpska, in

19     fact?

20        A.   No, I wouldn't have known that specific detail about him.

21        Q.   [No interpretation] [In English] [As read] "Mr. Esad Hasanovic,

22     the Sanski Most-based representative of Muslims and Croats willing to

23     leave Bosanska Krupa."

24             [Interpretation] Is that correct, so he was from Bosanska Krupa

25     and they wanted to leave Bosanska Krupa but he was actually based in

Page 21336

 1     Sanski Most, he was in a Serb municipality?

 2        A.   If you say so, Dr. Karadzic.

 3        Q.   Well, this is paragraph 111 of your statement and then in

 4     paragraph 112 you say that the delegation tried to convince the

 5     United Nations to change its policy against mass evacuations associated

 6     with ethnic cleansing and to assist in the organisation of another convoy

 7     through Sector North that would serve to evacuate 11.000 mostly Muslim

 8     applicants for evacuation from Sanski Most, and 8.000 from Prijedor.  So

 9     here we have a mixed delegation, Muslims, representatives, authorised

10     representatives, together with Serb.  We have the two sides telling you

11     that; correct?

12        A.   Correct.  That's what I'm reporting.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And in paragraph 116, Vrkes confirms before these

14     Muslims that 25.000 persons, probably Muslim, had come from

15     Bosanska Krupa and were now living in Sanski Most, and then he says:

16             [In English] "Only Sanski Most is looking after all three

17     nationalities ..."  And he said that in the presence of the Muslim

18     representatives; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you confirm in the same paragraph that before the arrival of

21     the Muslim population from Bosanska Krupa, Sanski Most had a population

22     of 50 per cent of Serbs, 50 per cent of Muslims, and that once the

23     refugees -- Muslim refugees arrived, that ratio, that balance had

24     changed, and then he said that they never mentioned and felt that they

25     were in any way, these Muslims and Croats, that they in any way posed

Page 21337

 1     danger to the Serbs, is that correct?

 2        A.   Only one correction, I'm not the one who confirmed the ratio of

 3     Muslims to Serbs.  It's Mr. Vrkes who is reporting the ratios.  I'm not

 4     confirming.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  However, this is something that was reported to you

 6     by a mixed delegation, both to you and the UNHCR, on the 18th of August;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now briefly take a look at

11     1D4828, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you know, by any chance, what the meaning of Merhamet is, or

14     rather, do you know that Merhamet is a Muslim charity?

15        A.   No, I don't.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 4828.  1D4828.  Maybe there was an

17     error of some sort.  My apologies, 4829.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Now, let me tell you this:  Merhamet is a Muslim humanitarian

20     organisation that was active in Republika Srpska throughout this period

21     providing aid to Muslims, civilians, or prisoners of war and they even

22     engaged some of its members in spying, not all of them, of course, but

23     throughout this period, they were allowed to remain there and be active

24     just as was the case with Caritas, a Catholic charitable organisation.

25     So do you know throughout this period they were allowed to operate in

Page 21338

 1     Republika Srpska unfettered?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Now, please take a look at this report.  It is a

 4     report on the activities of Merhamet in Novi Grad and Bosanski Novi.  I

 5     don't know if we have a translation but I will read this out to you:

 6             [As read] "According to our records, the Muslim humanitarian

 7     organisation has so far provided for 2.880 citizens humanitarian aid and

 8     it could be broken down as follows:  2.300 Muslims were helped, as well

 9     as 500 individuals from mixed marriages, and individuals who needed

10     social assistance."

11             So we can see from this that throughout the war Merhamet was able

12     to provide aid, humanitarian aid, to citizens in Novi Grad, and do you

13     understand now that in 1994 there were 2.300 Muslims still living in this

14     town.

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Can we take a look at the date, then, at the top.  Do you know

17     that only villagers from those villages where there was fighting moved

18     out, whereas in Novi Grad, the people remained, they stayed put?

19        A.   No, I wouldn't be able to confirm that.

20        Q.   Now, do you agree that this is a report that was issued on the

21     25th of May, 1994?  Can you take a look, please.

22        A.   I'm looking at it and it has the date you mention.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this,

25     please.

Page 21339

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Dr. Kirudja hasn't confirmed

 3     anything in the document except for the confirming the date of the

 4     document.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  It's difficult to see how this document is going

 6     to assist in respect of this witness, Dr. Karadzic.  As Ms. Sutherland

 7     said, he has not confirmed anything.  The date is self-evident.  I can't

 8     see at the moment how it can be usefully or properly admitted.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Excellency, but let

10     me read out the paragraph that can barely be made out at the end.  It

11     says:

12             [As read] "From a drugstore where there also individuals of Serb

13     nationality, over 5.000 different medications were issued at the request

14     of the Merhamet.  Of 11th May, 1994, the ministry of national Defence of

15     Stari Grad approved the work obligation for 16 Muslims, five of whom were

16     men, whereas four were medical workers at the drugstore and doctors of

17     Merhamet.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the second part

19     of his question.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  At the moment, I don't see the utility of that.

21     Is that going to form part of the question to the witness?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that was my question, whether

23     the witness who took a position here, which was not in favour of Serbs,

24     was he aware of the whole picture?  Was he familiar with the full

25     situation in the municipality next to the municipality of which he was

Page 21340

 1     testifying or on which he was testifying.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this document is dated May 1994.

 4     What relevance has it got to Dr. Kirudja's evidence about the events that

 5     he was testifying to in Bosanski Novi in 1992 and all the hostages in

 6     1995 which is a separate issue, but I see no relevance to Dr. Kirudja's

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  It's opaque at the moment.  Dr. Kirudja, can

 9     you -- we've had the whole of this document before you now, in effect.

10     Does any part of this document -- are you able to confirm the accuracy of

11     any part of this document?

12             THE WITNESS:  This document is totally unknown to me.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  There you have it, Dr. Karadzic.  A document to

14     be admitted must have some utility as well the other tests, at the moment

15     as far as this witness is concerned with respect to the term, there is no

16     utility.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  For your information,

18     and I'm not insisting on it, I would just like to remind you that in the

19     document Dr. Kirudja confirmed early on, that's 23030, mention was made

20     of Merhamet and contact was sought with Merhamet and that's where I found

21     the link.  Now, as for my understanding for the basis on which

22     Dr. Kirudja drew his conclusions, I'm trying to establish whether his

23     conclusions were based on the knowledge of the full truth.  But we will

24     try to do that through some other document.

25             Could we now see D1680.

Page 21341

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Sorry, I just wanted to point out while I notice

 3     it, on lines 13 and 14 of this part of the transcript, what I actually

 4     said is there is no utility, not that there is utility, but that can be

 5     corrected, and I'm sorry I interrupted you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that's what it

 7     says, there is no utility.  At least that's what it says in LiveNote.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  It may be my screen is just not showing that,

 9     but let's move on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Would you please take a look at this document.  We see that this

13     is a session of the Executive Committee of the

14     Sanski Most Municipal Assembly held on the 14th of August.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]Now, can we just scroll down this

16     document or rather can we show page 4.  In English that may be page 3.

17     Kalcun?  Kalacun?

18             [In English] [As read] "I would like to ask the chairman of the

19     Executive Committee to inform us of the general position of the Krajina R

20     government on the exodus from the Serbian state."

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Here the president of the municipality, Rasula, says there is no

23     general position, there are no instructions, and nobody can be forced to

24     go into exile.  The basic principle is that citizens should decide on

25     their own where they want to live, and so on and so forth.

Page 21342

 1             [In English] [As read] "If they want to leave, they should be

 2     allowed to leave with certain supervision and protection.  Those who wish

 3     to remain in the municipality will be allowed to stay only if they have

 4     not participated in any underhand activities.  Those who wish to leave,

 5     they have to cover the costs of their journey, because we have no

 6     resources for this."

 7             [Interpretation] Did you know and do you agree that here the

 8     president of the municipality is stating that there are no instructions

 9     and that the basic rule is that citizens should decide on their own?

10        A.   I note what you are saying, Dr. Karadzic, but I do not reconcile

11     it with what they said to me in my office, and it's around paragraph 112

12     of my testimony narrative, that 600 people wanted to leave

13     Bosanska Krupa.

14        Q.   Thank you.  But would you take a look at the entire paragraph

15     where you say:

16             [In English] [As read] "The delegation, this is the mixed

17     delegation, Serbs and the Muslims and the representative of Croats, the

18     delegation intended to convince the UN to change its policy against mass

19     evacuation associated with ethnic cleansing and to assist in the

20     organisation of another convoy ...," and so on and so on.

21             [Interpretation] I would like to remind you, Dr. Kirudja, that

22     under our law there is a duty that -- or obligation that civilians should

23     be moved out of combat areas, whether they wish to or not.  And here they

24     are requested to do so.  So is it correct, is this what they said to you?

25        A.   Again, Your Honour, again a conflicting point being made.  They

Page 21343

 1     must leave by our law, they must not be pushed to leave because every

 2     citizen have the right to decide.  That's what I'm hearing on one hand,

 3     what I'm hearing now on the other.  My testimony was not those arguments,

 4     it's simply 600 people want to leave.  It's a straightforward testimony,

 5     not a reasoned one.  It's a statement of fact.

 6        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, perhaps I was imprecise.  What I'm trying to say is

 7     that in spite of this legal obligation, they are appealing to you and

 8     otherwise the authorities had the obligation to move the population, the

 9     civilians from combat areas.  Here they are not applying, not abiding by

10     that rule, they are appealing to you, this mixed delegation, they are

11     appealing to you to help with their evacuation; is that correct?

12        A.   Correct.  They are asking.  And they are receiving an answer

13     also.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now see what you have to say about the

15     football stadium.  Do you accept what I'm going to say now that civilians

16     came to the football stadium where they were kept for two and a half

17     days.  On the third day, most of them were let -- allowed to go home

18     except 120 of them who joined our army and 17 who were kept, who were

19     detained by the military police for security reasons?

20        A.   Dr. Karadzic, for clarification, this testimony has two football

21     fields and the people gathered, one very early in Karlovac, 1.600, and

22     another in a football field in Bosanski Novi.  For my clarification, is

23     it football field in Bosanski Novi or in Karlovac?

24        Q.   Can you confirm that in Karlovac, which is in Croatia, far the

25     river or from the border, Croats accommodated 1.600 Muslims who were on

Page 21344

 1     their way back to Bosnia; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, they held them there in the football field due to the

 3     numbers.  If that's what is called accommodation, I want to be clear.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what I was referring to was the football stadium

 5     in Bosanski Novi where civilians from the Japra river valley were put up,

 6     so that's a different stadium and that's what you are referring to in

 7     paragraph 95 where you say that a Danish man from the Danish patrol saw,

 8     through his binoculars, the stadium in Bosanski Novi and he was able to

 9     report on the events there; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If paragraph 56 you say that 350 displaced person

12     came from Kostajnica, or rather, that a Danish company in Kostajnica

13     reported that 350 persons were displaced and gathered in a football field

14     in Bosanski Novi.  And then on the 8th of June, you report to

15     Mr. Thornberry in a memo, which summarised the events between the 26th of

16     May and 8th of June and you say:

17             [In English] [As read] "... and placed those events within the

18     context of the UN mandates, specifically I explained that according to

19     CIVPOL sources in the war, the persons originally held in the stadium

20     were all males.  The women later seen were probably bringing food and

21     other necessities to them."

22             [Interpretation] So you prepared this report based on reports

23     that were submitted to you by others; correct?

24        A.   The gathering of the report was made by the Danish, but once they

25     have gathered it, they would stop at that action, so it's forwarded to

Page 21345

 1     me.  It's not gathered for themselves.  It's gathered and forwarded to

 2     me.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 71, you say:

 4             [In English] [As read] "The report states that the persons being

 5     held in the football stadium reportedly waved white flags and flashed SOS

 6     to attract attention.  The following day I transmitted this information

 7     again in a memorandum with a letter attached."

 8             [Interpretation] And a little lower down:

 9             [In English] "As noted in my report, this paragraph was designed

10     to reinforce a message that had repeatedly been orally conveyed to him

11     and his colleagues in Dvor by UNHCR and by me."

12             [Interpretation] So this is a reference to Mr. Pasic.  Now, first

13     let me ask you this:  Do you believe that these villagers actually knew

14     how to signal SOS and wave the white flags -- with white flags?  And

15     could you explain perhaps, what kind of signalling that was?

16        A.   I believe the one things soldiers do very well is read signals

17     when they are trained to do that.  They are watching in a tower and they

18     see that and it's not a military situation.  So the first thing is to say

19     we are looking at this, we are seeing SOS, we don't know what it means

20     and they are waving.  That's the most I can say about that.  And I'm

21     saying it as a fact, not whether they knew how to do it, who was doing

22     it, but it was being done.

23        Q.   That is what you were told and you don't have any other

24     information other than what was relayed to you?  In other words, someone

25     told you that they could see someone signalling with white flags,

Page 21346

 1     signalling an SOS?

 2        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, that someone is someone on duty charged with

 3     the responsibility to do something.  It's not some busybody just

 4     observing for curiosity.

 5        Q.   Were you notified that a white flag placed on a house or on

 6     someone's arm means that the person in question was not a fighter and

 7     that the building in question was not involved in fighting in any case?

 8     This was done so that no fire would be opened on it.  It was in daily

 9     use.  In other words, the white flag or cloth meant:  Do not shoot at me

10     or at the house.

11        A.   I have no comment on that.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, I note that in paragraph 71 it

13     actually says the words flashing SOS, "waved white flags and flashed

14     SOS," and the inference seems to me from there that the waving of the

15     white flags and the flashing of the SOS were two separate acts and

16     flashing strongly suggests a light source, which would mean that the SOS

17     was being transmitted in Morse code, at least that's the inference I

18     would draw, and I suspect many others would too.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   But you merely conveyed this report, did you not?  This was not

22     your conclusion, you were merely conveying information; correct?

23        A.   Actually, this paragraph has a lot to do with a lot of things

24     that cannot be captured with the word "merely."  It was a huge dispute

25     going on whether or not at my headquarters they had been given this

Page 21347

 1     information on time.  And they were claiming that I should have informed

 2     them earlier.  This is what this paragraph is talking about, why didn't

 3     we know earlier than you told us.  That's what this paragraph is about.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let's have a look at something.  You discuss this

 5     stadium in Bosanski Novi.  Did you know that it was in the southern part

 6     of town at an altitude of 121 metres?

 7        A.   No, Dr. Karadzic, I didn't know that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The Danish Battalion was in Dvor.  Their observation

 9     post was at 126 metres above sea level.  Do you accept that?

10        A.   I wouldn't know because I didn't query them about it.

11        Q.   Did you know then that the observation bases of the UN were in

12     Divusa which is 12 kilometres away from the stadium in Kostajnica which

13     is 25 kilometres away, and in Dvor, and I would like to ask you how far

14     the observation station in Dvor was from the stadium?

15        A.   Sorry, Dr. Karadzic, I can't tell you that.  All I can tell you

16     that the observation was not done from Kostajnica.  It was done from Dvor

17     on the river side.  Not quite close to the river, but just about a few

18     metres.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D4827.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In the Brdjanin case you testified that they observed it from

22     their observation tower across the river, and that they used binoculars.

23     Do you agree that this is Dvor on one end towards the top and down below

24     we have the stadium at Bosanski Novi?

25        A.   It looks vaguely correct.  I've never looked at it from this

Page 21348

 1     angle before.

 2        Q.   Do you agree then that the location of the observation tower is

 3     5.18 kilometres away?

 4        A.   I don't know because I can't tell just looking at it.

 5        Q.   Do you agree that Google Earth automatically calculates distances

 6     and that is infallible, it automatically calculates any distance?

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, that's asking the witness to agree

 8     with something which, unless he is an expert on Google Earth, I doubt

 9     that he can automatically agree.

10             The point you are making is this:  That if these distances marked

11     on the aerial photograph are correct, 1.6 and 5.18 kilometres

12     respectively, you are trying to make the point that it would be

13     difficult, if not impossible, for the Danish soldiers to see what they

14     said they saw, is that the object of the exercise?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  It goes both for

16     the distance and vantage point because they were at an equal level

17     basically, 121 and 126 metres above sea level.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Are you in a position, Dr. Kirudja, to comment

19     on that, or is that simply something outside your knowledge?

20             THE WITNESS:  Only a simpler comment, Your Honour.  I return to

21     this evidence, it was not a contested evidence, the Danish were not being

22     taken to task about what they saw or didn't see, and the Danes are pretty

23     sophisticated military personnel, they were not asked what type of

24     equipment you are using.  Absent all of that, I wouldn't know what

25     Dr. Karadzic's point amounts to.

Page 21349

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I have a transcript page

 2     reference for that Brdjanin testimony.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 12th of February, 2003.  Page

 4     14474 and 14475.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, did you know on which side the main seats were?  On

 7     the western side we have the stands reaching up to 25 metres.  Did you

 8     know that?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I have to deal next with the issue of statements you

11     received from Muslim refugees.  In paragraph 74 you say that you sent a

12     report to UNPROFOR headquarters in Zagreb entitled "Humanitarian aid".

13             [In English] [As read] "... which addressed the situation in

14     Bosanski Novi and other places of detention in north-western Bosnia.  In

15     that report I said, we believe the football field detainees are only a

16     tip of the iceberg involving the concerted action of local Serbian

17     authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina trying to establish a Serbian

18     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina free of Muslims.  In that process, the

19     mayor, the milicija, the police, and the Territorial Defence forces of

20     Bosanski Novi were acting in unison with their counterparts, not only in

21     the UNPA (Dvor and Kostajnica), but also with (other Bosnian Serb

22     authorities in) Bosanska Dubica, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and

23     Kljuc."

24             [Interpretation] Then you go on to say:

25             [In English] "The Serbs appear to be engaged in a determined

Page 21350

 1     process of forcefully disarming Muslims where they are a clearly a small

 2     encircled minority, such as in Bosanski Novi or besieging their city

 3     totally, such as in Bihac.  Apparently the football field (in

 4     Bosanski Novi) is the holding ground where Muslim groups are detained

 5     while their houses are being searched, the men isolated and transported

 6     to concentration camps.  The UNHCR representative and civil affairs have

 7     pieced together reports from Muslims who recently have taken refuge under

 8     UNPROFOR protection in Dvor and Kostajnica.  There are reported

 9     concentration camps at the following locations:"

10             [Interpretation] And then you enumerate them.  We'll get to that.

11             So you say specifically that you believe it was all happening as

12     described in paragraph 79.  Did you form that belief, as you say, based

13     on what you were told by Muslim refugees or did you have any other proof?

14        A.   Your Honour, I don't have a date of this, this was a memorandum,

15     the one that begins with we, that I released under my signature, and I

16     don't have a date on it and it would be helpful if I knew the date

17     because of what I'm going to say.  We had gone through enormous reporting

18     to the headquarters even as the pace of the people coming to where we

19     were was picking up.  That night when we wrote this thing, we were up

20     almost 24 hours with a huge group of people, but we also didn't want them

21     to leave before we debriefed them why they were leaving.

22             As we were debriefing them, and this was not a small group of

23     people, this information was repeated over and over again.  Not by one,

24     not by ten, we are talking about hundreds of people.  Then we put

25     together this document because at this moment I was distinctly aware that

Page 21351

 1     my headquarters was paying no attention to what I was saying, and then

 2     when the document got leaked, this document, the one you are looking at,

 3     by somebody I don't know, because I had copied it to both the UNHCR and

 4     the ICRC, it created at this moment so much brouhaha, there were about 30

 5     reporters the next day in my office about this.  At that moment, the

 6     entire matter gripped the Security Council and this document was an

 7     exhibit in there.  So I wrote it in a very concise culminating to all the

 8     other reports that went before it -- this is an answer to the question

 9     where did the information come from.  It was a culmination of all these

10     reports triggered by a night of hundreds of people reporting the same

11     thing.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.  We are going to take a break now

13     until 3.30.  Ms. Sutherland, do you have any or are you likely to have

14     any re-examination for Dr. Kirudja?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Just a few minutes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  Very well.  We have a maximum period of time

17     until 5.30 which gives an hour and a half and, Dr. Kirudja, I understand

18     you have to fly tomorrow; is that correct?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, and I appreciate your forbearance

20     with it.  There are many many things on hold since I came here last

21     Saturday.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  I thought so.  There you have it, Dr. Karadzic.

23     We have to finish your cross-examination of Dr. Kirudja and we've already

24     extended it by an hour and a half from the original allotment and can you

25     finish, please, by quarter past 5.00.  We'll rise now until 3.30.

Page 21352

 1             Thank you.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.01 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 3.32 p.m.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Before the break, I omitted to take into

 5     consideration the interpreters, which I should have done.  What we are

 6     going to do is sit from now until 4.30, take a quarter of an hour break

 7     then resume sitting to 5.30.  Dr. Karadzic, while it's on my mind, you

 8     asked if the court would not sit on the 21st of November, that's a

 9     possibility, but in order not to lose any sitting, instead we would sit

10     on the afternoon of the 28th of November, which means that that week

11     we'll be sitting each of the five days.  If that's not going to conflict

12     with any pre-made plans by the Defence, that can be put into operation.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are you saying that we would not be

14     sitting on the 21st of November?

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, we would not sit on the 21st, instead we

16     would sit on the afternoon of the 28th.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm very grateful.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I hope, Mr. President, that was by way of clarifying

20     Dr. Karadzic's request, meanwhile we have been attempting to determine

21     the extent of any impact on witness scheduling based on the earlier

22     assumption that we would still have four days of courtroom time on the

23     week of the 21st.  Now, I understand that the additional day lost on the

24     21st would be made up on the 28th, so we have to recalculate the effect

25     of the loss of the 21st on witnesses including at least one of whom was

Page 21353

 1     fixed for a certain day on the week of the -- on the week of the 21st and

 2     others who have various travel arrangements that had been dependent upon

 3     the identified date.  We are looking at that.  We'd like to be

 4     accommodating if possible, but we have an obligation to consider the

 5     impact on the witnesses who have been advised on the basis of the

 6     previous schedule.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Of course, Mr. Tieger.  I'd assumed that that a

 8     was taken into account and I -- if that's just a misapprehension on my

 9     part then I'm sorry, you'll probably let us know as soon as practicable.

10             Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we briefly look at

12     3842.  Which is P3842.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Are you familiar with this document which was drafted by one of

15     your associates, Raffone?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't need the Serbian version,

17     we can -- we don't need the Serbian version.  Please bring back the

18     English version.  We don't need the Serbian version.  On the 13th of

19     July, 1992, and can we please have the following page on the screen.

20             [In English] Next page, please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Are you familiar with this memorandum which was sent by

23     Paolo Raffone, your associate or rather, your assistant?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page.

Page 21354

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the entire

 2     paragraph 3.

 3        Q.   Do you agree that it says here that -- that UNHCR crossed into

 4     Bosanski Novi and met representatives of Muslim population wanting and

 5     preparing to leave.

 6             [In English] [As read] "Despite all explanations their attitude

 7     he remained the same, that is, that their only possibility is to leave

 8     Bosnian Krajina for destinations in Croatia, Slovenia, and

 9     Western Europe."

10        A.   Yes, I note that.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] You were told that and this is not a Serbian

12     source, it is Muslim representatives who informed UNHCR of what their

13     intentions were and it seems that their intentions took them away from

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Before the break you told us that you had sent

17     several reports to Zagreb to the staff there; however, those reports were

18     not taken seriously.  You also spoke about that in the Brdjanin case on

19     the 10th of February, 2003.  The transcript page number is 14488.  Where

20     you say that there were no reports or requests for the matter to be

21     investigated, nobody paid attention to the memos that you sent them.  Is

22     all that correct?

23        A.   The general idea is correct.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Further on you said, and then you confirmed earlier

25     today, that those reports had a large impact because they contained terms

Page 21355

 1     such as "concentration camps" and "unspeakable atrocities," and also that

 2     that should have provoked some sort of action but yet nobody paid any

 3     attention to them in the staff; right?

 4        A.   Not correct.  It says up to that time nobody was paying

 5     attention.  Up to that time.  Second point, the word "concentration camp"

 6     is in quotes because it became a focus of attention.  The language used

 7     by me introducing the memorandum itself wasn't as meritorious of

 8     attention as the key word "concentration camp," yet that is the word

 9     being used over and over again by the people running away from there, and

10     the interpreters, like the one I'm listening to now, interpreted what

11     they were saying as "concentration camps".  That became such concern that

12     the moment they paid attention to the memorandum, General Nambiar called

13     me about it and his concern was whether that word was appropriate.

14        Q.   Thank you.  The only source of information that you had and the

15     only grounds on which you based those terms and drafted those reports

16     were interviews with those Muslims who had fled from Bosnia; right?

17        A.   Not the only terms, but a critical part of it.  I note you are

18     using the word "only" source.  I would replace that word as a critical

19     part of that.  It wasn't the only one.

20        Q.   Did you make any attempts to check the words of the refugees?

21        A.   We made every conscious attempt that we could to cross-reference,

22     to check information, being careful of the limited number of credible

23     sources that could go into the issues that we were researching or

24     reporting on.  As long as we were able to find corroborative sources, we

25     did so but we also did so on a point I made earlier to that, we were

Page 21356

 1     required to report these things as soon as possible, maximum within 24

 2     hours.  So we didn't have the luxury of doing comprehensive reports.  We

 3     were reporting the information as it came.

 4        Q.   My first question, what other sources, can you tell us?  Maybe we

 5     can verify those sources and present them to the Trial Chamber.  Save for

 6     those interviews with the refugees, what other sources did you use?

 7        A.   May I draw the court's attention to a full accounting on the

 8     narrative titled "Reporting Responsibilities and Sources."  Running from

 9     page 13 -- paragraph 13 to 16.  Those were my sources.

10        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, among those, are there any sources of knowledge for

11     the specific claims that you are making, and if there are such sources,

12     who are they?  Can we check them?

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Two thing, Dr. Karadzic, first of all I'm not

14     sure it's correct to say that the witness is making specific claims as

15     opposed to reportage.  And, secondly, the sources are set out.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Second question, who was it who expected you to report things

19     within such a short period of time?

20        A.   This was the United Nations peacekeeping operations.  We

21     explained its organisation at the beginning of the narrative headed by

22     General Nambiar who was advised by Mr. Cedric Thornberry as the

23     senior-most civilian at headquarters.  On the ground on the designated

24     places known as sectors, a similar arrangement obtained there where there

25     was a sector commander, a military official reporting to General Nambiar,

Page 21357

 1     and a civilian official.  In Sector North, I was that official, reporting

 2     to Cedric Thornberry at the headquarters.  Both Cedric and Nambiar

 3     reported to the Secretary-General straight through the peacekeeping

 4     Undersecretary-General at the time was Marrack Goulding.  That chain was

 5     a well-defined chain and required those kind of reporting requirements

 6     that I just mentioned.

 7        Q.   So your immediate superior, Mr. Cedric Thornberry expected that

 8     from you; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  However, let's look at what you said in the Milosevic

11     case on the 3rd of February, 2003.  On page 15431 you said that

12     Cedric Thornberry sent you a message not to get involved in what was

13     going on in Bosanski Novi because the mandate of the Security Council

14     does not extend over the border; right?

15        A.   Yes, Your Honour, and it's repeated in this narrative.  I forget

16     the exact paragraph.

17        Q.   Perhaps 61.  No, no, 61 is something entirely different.  And

18     then in the Brdjanin case you said on page 1415 [as interpreted] that

19     your superiors did not take your reports seriously, and then you used the

20     term "concentration camps" and it was only then that they started taking

21     you seriously; right?

22        A.   No.  The word "concentration camp" got their attention, as I

23     explained earlier today, when that entire memo got leaked to the press,

24     appeared in radio stations and TV stations, and the matter was referred

25     to the Security Council.  At that moment, Marrack Goulding had to take a

Page 21358

 1     plane to Topusko to talk about it.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And then you said in paragraph 74 what concentration

 3     camps you had in mind, and you mentioned Keraterm, Trnopolje.  You said

 4     that that was a refugee camp for women, children, and old men, and you

 5     also mentioned Omarska and Manjaca.  According to you, were those

 6     concentration camps?

 7        A.   I said the people who told us of their existence characterised

 8     them as indicated over there in the memo.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Would it be reasonable to assume that

10     Cedric Thornberry received from you and from your peers on the ground

11     more information, that he had more information than you had and that the

12     first in the chain of command General Nambiar had even more information

13     than either you or Cedric Thornberry or the both of you together?

14        A.   You can assume that in the nature of logic, but you'd have to

15     qualify it not in every instance.  They were receiving it from the ground

16     up, so logically, Dr. Karadzic, you could say the sum total of what they

17     received is greater than those of us who were reporting on specified

18     issues.  It won't be true that he knew more about a specified issue.  He

19     receives a condensed amount on the issue.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now you have just repeated what you already stated in

21     the Brdjanin case on 1416 [as interpreted] and that is that General

22     Nambiar opposed the use of the term "concentration camps" and suggested

23     that you should use the term "detention camps"; isn't that the case?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour I'm really sorry to interrupt but

25     the Brdjanin transcript, this reference he just gave and the one before

Page 21359

 1     or only four digits, and I need five digits, please.  Again, I apologise

 2     for interrupting but I need the page.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  We all do.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I may have spoken too fast.  The

 5     page number is 14616.  I apologise, 14493.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And while you are searching for that, Ms. Sutherland,

 8     Dr. Kirudja, isn't it true that you never visited any of those camps, the

 9     prisons, detention units, and that you made your inferences based on what

10     people told you?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             In paragraph 61 of your statement you speak about your message

14     sent to Mr. Thornberry on the 5th of June and you said that two people

15     who had fled Bosanski Novi described an attack by the local Serbs

16     according to the men, the police then removed the villagers to a football

17     field while their houses were searched and that subsequently their homes

18     were shelled by cannons and mortars from neighbouring Serb villages.  And

19     so on and so forth.  Can you see the paragraph, 61?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What are the names of the two men who told you all that?

22        A.   I don't have those names but, as you'll see, there are other

23     names that are given whenever I speak of an incident like this.  I

24     suspect the reason why those names were never peddled in papers was for

25     their protection because of the subject they were talking about.  I

Page 21360

 1     remember some people reporting to our civil police, in Dvor particularly,

 2     and after they talked to us, they disappeared, and the civil police,

 3     which is the custodian of those reports now began to be more guarded

 4     about disclosing certain people.  I'm not sure that's what happened, but

 5     I note that, uncharacteristic of my testimony, those names are not given.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  If I put to you that a few days ago a Muslim from

 7     those villages testified and he said that they spent three days in the

 8     stadium, that most were released to go home and that even 17 days after

 9     that when they left those villages, their houses remained intact.  How

10     does that tally with what you are reporting and that is that their houses

11     were shelled while they were still at the stadium?

12        A.   I don't see very much difficulty in that.  It's entirely possible

13     that some houses could remain standing while others are being shelled.

14        Q.   With all due respect, Dr. Kirudja, the witness said that all the

15     houses were intact when they left their village, but let's leave that,

16     you don't have to know that.  But tell us this:  How did the two Muslims

17     communicate to you?  In what language?

18        A.   Like all people who communicated to me in that area, they spoke

19     their local language and the interpreters interpreted what they said to

20     me.

21        Q.   Can you tell us the name of the interpreter?

22        A.   No.  Some of these things happened so long long time ago when

23     there was no issue even when I'm trying not to forget, I do forget if

24     there was no issue.  We had a lot of interpreters.  With all due respect

25     to them, and I don't remember them so easily.

Page 21361

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic is putting facts to

 3     the witness which aren't correct.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  I think he left that area but that's been noted

 5     in any event.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I'm not aware of that.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, when you testified in the Milosevic case, in

 9     President Milosevic case on page 15611, did you accept that all the sides

10     to the conflict tended to exaggerate on many things, if not all of the

11     things that they communicated to you?

12        A.   I have a vague memory that is an accurate characterisation,

13     though I don't know exact context that it was made.  But it's true, there

14     was a lot of exaggeration on all sides and goes to the question that was

15     asked earlier, do you try to corroborate, to check, to cross-check

16     because of that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Kirudja, I am afraid that your attitude is

18     someone asymmetrical towards the sides to the conflicts.  Look at

19     paragraph 62 where you say that the alleged murders of several Serb

20     members of the Territorial Defence by Muslims and then you say that the

21     alleged massacre in the village of Corkovaca.  What I'm trying to say is

22     that when it comes to Serb victims you tends to use the word "allegedly".

23     Whenever Muslim speaks about his or her suffering, you don't use the word

24     "allegedly"; is that right?

25        A.   I must say it does look like that, the paragraph does open itself

Page 21362

 1     to that interpretation.  I'd like to take just a second to bring an

 2     understanding to the court about this.  We are not talking about Bosnia

 3     in this paragraph.  We are talking about the UNPA.  We have explained

 4     that our mandate required that we observe authorities who had control of

 5     the area.  The control of that area where this paragraph refers to were

 6     the Serb authorities.  Now they come with an allegation but wouldn't

 7     provide at the request any evidence, and they are the authorities.  The

 8     difference which Mr. Karadzic correctly observed is that that is not the

 9     same thing if you are talking about the minorities who are fleeing, they

10     are not the authorities.  And they are telling themselves the story, this

11     is a story being told by the authorities.  And if they don't provide any

12     evidence, if people are killed, I can assure you we would go to the scene

13     of the crime very easily.  They didn't do it.  So the choice for me was

14     to hear a story and not report it, or report it in the context I heard

15     that I have no more information than what the paragraph carries.  And in

16     the end, the paragraph, I admit, opens itself to what Dr. Karadzic

17     characterises it.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that in the Milosevic case on the 4th of

19     February, 2003, on page 15571 you said, I'll quote:

20             [In English] [As read] "Regardless of whether we had a mandate,

21     we have a model responsibility of having the world hear the story told to

22     us by numerous people who are fleeing from this part of Bosnia."

23             [Interpretation] Did you indeed say so?

24        A.   Yes, on paragraph 92 of the narrative, the same thing is repeated

25     almost verbatim.

Page 21363

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree, however, that the attention of the

 2     world did not have in mind who reported this, but who signed such a

 3     document and they didn't mind or bother to check whether this was a

 4     one-sided story or something that was indeed verified?

 5        A.   What document, Dr. Karadzic, are you referring to?

 6        Q.   I was referring to your statement in the Milosevic case where you

 7     said that irrespective of the mandate you had a moral obligation or

 8     responsibility to report about what Bosnian refugees were telling you.

 9     Therefore, I'm asking you this:  Such stories which were not verified and

10     which were one-sided is something that was reported to the world, but the

11     world didn't bother to check whether there was any verification, they

12     simply took it all in as if everything had been verified and confirmed.

13        A.   Number one, Dr. Karadzic, I do not, of course, accept that my

14     story was one-sided.  And, number two, it wasn't as you say unsigned

15     because you, yourself, can identify to said it and so does anyone who

16     looks at the same statement.  They would know the context in which the

17     statement was made, i.e., the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.

18        Q.   Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear, Dr. Kirudja, I'm trying to

19     say this:  Conveying one-sided statements made by Muslim refugees on your

20     part caused a lot of damage to us because the world public only -- was

21     only interested in who signed such a report and not who reported it

22     originally.  You did not mention alleged crimes, you simply omitted that

23     word and portrayed the crimes as if something that had been verified and

24     accurate.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  That's a statement, not a question,

Page 21364

 1     Dr. Karadzic.  And, Dr. Kirudja, when you made your original reports who

 2     were they for?  Were they internal UN reports or were they for the press?

 3             THE WITNESS:  They were internal UN reports which the Prosecutor

 4     had to get special authority to access.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   But your superiors did not take such internal reports for

 8     granted, as you confirmed today.  This includes both Mr. Nambiar and

 9     Thornberry, who both had their objections to such reporting?

10        A.   It's a mischaracterisation of what I said to say Dr. --

11     Mr. Nambiar objected to what I said.  He called me to seek clarification

12     what was meant by the word "concentration".  I remember very clearly this

13     matter.  And it came up again in the Milosevic trial.  I think some even

14     played a video of it.  Mr. Nambiar was trying to assert in the context in

15     which the word was used and then the word came up, wouldn't it be more

16     appropriate if you used the word "detention," and like I've explained the

17     Court, I mentioned to him, this is not me talking.  This is the story of

18     those who have suffered.  That's what they call it.

19             Days later, pictures of emaciated prisoners began to hit the

20     press.  Now, Dr. Karadzic, what the press says about me or you, for that

21     matter, is something you have absolutely to understand that is what they

22     do the way they do.  You don't tell them how to tell the story once they

23     got it.  And I'm sure might just have been written by the press.  They

24     were not given this information the way Dr. Karadzic may have implied.

25     The world was not given that information that way.  This information

Page 21365

 1     remained internal information of the United Nations until the Prosecutor

 2     got ahold of it.

 3        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, if I told you that the photograph you referred to

 4     which cost us a great deal of bombs and suffering was taken in Trnopolje,

 5     which you termed refugee camp, what would you say then?  Was the

 6     photograph implying that it was a concentration camp, although you,

 7     yourself, referred to it as a refugee camp?  Can you see how two pieces

 8     which are untrue have an enormous impact on world public?

 9        A.   This whole statement, Dr. Karadzic, is itself not correct.  One,

10     I didn't refer to a photograph myself.  Two days later something

11     appeared.  It wasn't a photograph that in any way can be associated with

12     my testimony.  Number two, I termed it a refugee camp, no.  The evidence

13     here doesn't use that word.  And, lastly, I am not aware of the link

14     between what may have happened and this event that Dr. Karadzic is

15     piecing together.

16        Q.   Well, Dr. Kirudja, look at paragraph 74.  Following Keraterm you

17     refer to Trnopolje:

18             [In English] "A refugee for women, children, and old men."

19             [Interpretation] The Bench could see for themselves what that

20     camp was like, where people could leave and come in as they wished to

21     procure food.  It is in that refugee camp that the photograph was taken

22     and you were not prompted by me, you referred to it yourself.

23        A.   Not the photograph.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Again, Mr. Karadzic is mischaracterising the

Page 21366

 1     evidence.  Some people, perhaps.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, it seems to me, I speak for myself

 3     alone, fairly fruitless to associate the photograph directly with this

 4     witness.  He simply referred to it in passing.  It's not a photograph

 5     that he took or adopted or in any way utilised.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, with all due

 7     respect, I believe the witness mentioned the photograph as something he

 8     relied on to corroborate what he stated in his report.  And, two,

 9     wrongful reporting created this situation which the Serb people suffered

10     greatly.  Let's drop that now.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   In any case, is it correct, Dr. Kirudja, that you said that in

13     the former Yugoslavia, throughout the former Yugoslavia, you never felt

14     any discrimination against you, and you stated so at page 15489 of your

15     testimony in the Milosevic case?

16        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, but specifically doesn't say the former

17     Yugoslavia, it says in the area where I was located, and it's an area

18     predominantly controlled by the Serbs.  I felt very comfortable, very at

19     ease, and made a lot of friends.  I repeat that today; I've always felt

20     that way.  Never any such feelings of being discriminated when I lived

21     and worked among the Serbs.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that in conversation with UN

23     representatives, I officially preferred Asian and African troops as

24     opposed to NATO country troops?  We asked that African and Asian soldiers

25     be sent in.  Have you ever come across that in any reports?

Page 21367

 1        A.   Very, very aware, and this is a sensitive matter for me because I

 2     am from the region you are describing, and two battalions of African

 3     troops were located in my sector, Sector North.  It wasn't a unanimous

 4     preference for them, I must say.  Though from the Serb side, I can

 5     corroborate, never heard what Dr. Karadzic said before, but I had heard

 6     it from similar sentiment expressed by other Serbs in the region.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to direct your attention at paragraph 64 of

 8     your statement.  You mentioned today that your teams were stopped by

 9     armed people in Bihac.  Do you know who controlled Bihac throughout the

10     war?

11        A.   It's an open-ended statement "throughout the war."  I only know

12     the period I was there, who I was dealing with and the extent of their

13     authority while I was dealing with them.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Have a look at paragraph 64 where you say that you

15     reported your Zagreb HQ about the humanitarian disaster unfolding in

16     Bihac and along the Bosnian border.  You say you wanted to highlight as

17     clearly as you could to headquarters the urgent need for a humanitarian

18     operation for the Bihac area, and so on and so forth:

19             [In English] [As read] "And I expressed my fear that behind the

20     border the mountains and the forests unspeakable atrocities may be

21     unfolded.  The stories coming from Bihac and the surrounding Bosnian

22     municipalities of Velika Kladusa, Cazin, Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Krupa,

23     painted a gloomy picture similar to the one unfolding in and around

24     Sarajevo and Mostar at the same time."

25             [Interpretation] A bit further down:

Page 21368

 1             [In English] "Additionally, I noticed that in my opinion Serb

 2     stories of atrocities committed by Muslims such as axing to death of 40

 3     Serbs in a two-day period were part of a concerted effort by Serbian

 4     leaders on both sides of the border to paint the Muslims in the area as

 5     dangerous."

 6             [Interpretation] Dr. Kirudja, do you know that Serbs had no

 7     access whatsoever to Velika Kladusa and Cazin, and that if there were

 8     atrocities committed there, they could only have been committed among the

 9     Muslims themselves in their internal clashes?

10        A.   It's not true.  That's an area I lived, worked, and observed

11     firsthand.  We had a lot of fighting in there.  I'm thinking even one

12     example, some groups of Serbs from the UNPA led by one

13     Colonel Isaac [phoen] woke up one afternoon and went into Bosnia and took

14     up a big enclave of it and wouldn't come out, until we found a way to end

15     that fighting.  Later because of -- it was a very unique area where there

16     were four-way conflict unlike elsewhere in Bosnia.  There were conflicts

17     between Serbs and the Croats, that were conflicts between Serbs and

18     Muslims, and there were conflicts between Muslims versus Muslims in the

19     area.  It was a very hectic area.  A lot of things were going on.  No,

20     it's not true to say nothing happened there.  Plenty happened.

21        Q.   I'm asking you this:  Are you accusing Bosnian Serbs, people from

22     my country which I presided over, to have entered Kladusa, Cazin, and

23     Bihac in order to commit crimes?

24        A.   I notice now you have changed a little bit because the paragraph

25     was talking about Serbs, when you started out, Dr. Karadzic.  I hear you

Page 21369

 1     now talking about people from your country and I assume it's the rest of

 2     Bosnia.  No, I never reported about that, nor would I be reporting since

 3     I wouldn't know about it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And yet you believed that atrocities were committed

 5     over Serbs in the Bihac pocket; correct?

 6        A.   Not I believed, I reported about that, what was going on there.

 7     We held numerous peace and reconciliation meetings between the people who

 8     were fighting in there on a day-to-day basis.  It wasn't a belief, it was

 9     a report of what was going on while we were there.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the 5th Corps of the Army of BH,

11     which was stationed in Bihac, was a powerful military formation?

12        A.   Yes, and I met with its commander severally.  It was, as you

13     characterise it, a powerful force.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that in the war between Muslims and

15     Muslims, Serbs sided with Fikret Abdic, whom they saw as a pro-European

16     Muslim?

17        A.   There were several rounds of fightings and it would be incorrect

18     except towards the end to characterise which side the Serbs associated

19     with in the earlier fightings.  In the end the two groups did split on

20     the 5th Corps of Bihac and fought each other, with Abdic on one side, and

21     what we called the Sarajevo-supported group on the other side.  The

22     Sarajevo-supported group won.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that I signed a peace agreement with

24     Mr. Abdic early on in the war, sometime in 1993, and that the fighting

25     between our troops and Abdic's stopped?

Page 21370

 1        A.   Your Honour, I had extensive discussions with Fikret Abdic and

 2     part of that was involving what he said he signed with Mr. Karadzic,

 3     Dr. Karadzic.  Yes, I am aware, because I spoke at length with

 4     Fikret Abdic about those things.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 65 you discuss 200 people, or even 850

 6     who had arrived from Sanski Most.  Did you know that those people from

 7     Sanski Most, that brigade, had taken seven of our soldiers prisoner in

 8     order to blackmail us so that we would let them pass through and provide

 9     our own buses for their transport to the Bihac pocket.  We saw such

10     documents here already, I just wanted to know for the time being whether

11     you were aware of that.  They asked us to let them through to the Bihac

12     pocket aboard our buses and that these were hardened fighters we had to

13     deal with.

14        A.   No, I didn't know that detail.

15        Q.   Thank you.  They characterised Manjaca as a concentration camp,

16     as we can see in paragraph 65; correct?

17        A.   They meaning the group referred to in paragraph 65 -- 65?

18        Q.   Yes.  If I understood that correctly.

19        A.   I don't think so because the content of paragraph 74 I had

20     already apprised the Court that were done in our office following the

21     night of a huge number of refugees.  So if some of them had been part of

22     that group, I wouldn't be able to tell.  It's entirely possible.  But

23     they were not a fighting force.  It's a group of refugees when they

24     arrived and before they could be escorted out, we needed to debrief them,

25     so we understand what is going on and why they were running away from

Page 21371

 1     whatever they were running away from.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 53 you discuss Mr. Kupresanin having

 3     called the civil affairs office in Sector North and spoke to

 4     Paolo Raffone and he asked that the local authorities be helped to

 5     protect the Muslim population in the municipalities of Bosanski Novi,

 6     Prijedor, Kljuc, Dubica, Sanski Most and Banja Luka; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes further down:

 8             [In English] "He also appealed to the UNPROFOR and western

 9     countries to find a way to protect the civilian Muslim population."

10             [Interpretation] Correct?

11        A.   Yeah.

12        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Kupresanin was asked by me to visit Manjaca

13     and the Muslim villages there and that he was the highest representative

14     of the ARK authorities, he was the Assembly speaker of the ARK until it

15     ceased to exist?

16        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that detail.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that Mr. Kupresanin was the first person

18     to appear on the ballot list of the SDS on the electoral unit of

19     Banja Luka when the votes were being cast to the republican parliament in

20     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21        A.   No, I didn't know that detail.

22        Q.   Do you agree that when you provide your assessments of the SDS,

23     it would be useful for you to know what position Mr. Kupresanin had and

24     on whose behalf he undertook these humanitarian efforts?  Would it not be

25     quite appropriate for you to know he was the person number one in the

Page 21372

 1     civilian authorities of the ARK?

 2        A.   We made every effort to know who it is we were talking to and who

 3     they represented and what is it they wanted.  We ask as much -- as many

 4     questions to enable us to understand the situation.  It doesn't mean we

 5     got answers.  It doesn't mean if I had asked him, are you working with

 6     Dr. Karadzic he would have said yes.  In those situations, it took a long

 7     time for people to understand who the interlocutors were.  And lastly, he

 8     had made a telephone call to my office.  Telephone calls, as you would

 9     know, are not your best way of disclosure and saying who you are to --

10     you never know exactly who is at the other end of the line.  But he had

11     an important message about the refugees and that was heard and recorded.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  We'll take a break now for a quarter of an hour.

13             Dr. Karadzic, although there is time available, you've had over

14     an hour more than the time that was originally assessed as appropriate,

15     so if you could finish your cross-examination within and before the

16     allotted time, no doubt that would be appreciated by all.  Not the least

17     the witness who has had a very long day.  We'll rise for a quarter of an

18     hour now.

19                           --- Recess taken at 4.29 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 4.47 p.m.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, let's clarify one thing.  You did not doubt the fact

25     that Mr. Kupresanin was an official, that he was a politician and that he

Page 21373

 1     was in power there; right?

 2        A.   There was no reason to do that given the subject he was talking

 3     about.

 4        Q.   And what about Raffone, did he not believe that he was mayor of

 5     Banja Luka?  You spoke about that in the Brdjanin case on the 10th of

 6     February, page 14592.

 7        A.   Later on it became clear he wasn't -- he was later identified as

 8     not the mayor of Banja Luka.  Mr. Raffone, I repeat, was talking to him

 9     on the telephone with an interpreter.  You know the complications of

10     talking to someone on the telephone with an interpreter, a lot could be

11     misunderstood, and it was.

12        Q.   Well, Dr. Kirudja, does it make a difference if a citizen calls

13     you or the call is from a high official since you claim that he was not

14     the mayor?  Did you not find it important to establish who Kupresanin

15     was?

16        A.   As I said, Mr. Raffone undertook this job on my behalf.  He comes

17     to the office with the information, he prepares a note, I debrief him and

18     when I'm clear what it is, I sign a release for that information.  I

19     didn't doubt that he asked all the questions that he needed to ask to

20     authenticate who it is that was speaking to him and making the request

21     that he was making.  Besides, he was quite an experienced civil affairs

22     officer and he did his job very well.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I have to go back to my main point.  Did you not find

24     it important that you were called by the highest political leader in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina and asked you to protect the Muslims?  Did you not

Page 21374

 1     think that that was an important fact that should have been taken into

 2     account?

 3        A.   I said earlier I doubted that he identified himself as your

 4     highest representative in that area.  He just talked about the refugees,

 5     the fact that he was being mistaken in his role is -- speaks for itself.

 6     I can assure you had he said I'm speaking on behalf of Dr. Karadzic, a

 7     red flag would have gone up.  Wherever I was, I would have been called to

 8     take care of this information.  Maybe it's important.

 9        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, why didn't you take interest in who it who was

10     calling and asking you for help?  If you had found out that he was the

11     highest political authority in Bosnia and Herzegovina, wouldn't that have

12     made a difference for you when passing judgement on the SDS?  How come

13     you overlooked that fact when you were making your decisions and

14     judgements about the situation?

15        A.   Dr. Karadzic, you are terribly mistaken that I didn't take

16     interest.  The fact that I assigned somebody else to deal with this issue

17     is because on a single day I couldn't do everything as head of that

18     office.  And I have delegated responsibilities.  Yes, I knew what was the

19     matter because that staff knew enough to come and brief me.  It doesn't

20     follow I took no interest.  Actually, I did take plenty of interest in

21     the matter.

22        Q.   So you took interest in Mr. Kupresanin's position and why he was

23     calling you to ask your assistance, on behalf of what authority?  Did you

24     investigate that?

25        A.   Apparently, Dr. Karadzic, you are talking about this relationship

Page 21375

 1     to you and how big it was.  I'm talking about the substance he was

 2     talking about:  15.000 persons.  Any time you -- anyone would call and

 3     say there is that many people in that situation, that was our job.

 4     Already even if there were two or three, we would pay attention; this is

 5     15.000.  That's the nature of the interest, not the fact that he was your

 6     highest representative.  We didn't know that, with all due respect, so we

 7     couldn't take interest on account that he was your highest

 8     representative.

 9        Q.   But with all due respect, Dr. Kirudja, in paragraph 111 you did

10     notice that Vlado Vrkes was the president of a small Municipal Board.  At

11     the same time you did not notice that he was the president of the

12     parliament of the Autonomous Province of Krajina, a very high political

13     official, and that makes me think that you were selective and very

14     partial because you knew exactly who the president of a small

15     Municipal Board was and that was a much lower position than the position

16     that Dr. Kupresanin held at the time; right?

17        A.   I guarantee you, Dr. Karadzic, if he had characterised himself

18     the way you are characterising him, a big point would have made of it.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think the witness has asked and

20     answered these questions.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, and I think the last answer I think should

22     suffice.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

24        Q.   Let's move on then.  What did you understand about those 15.000

25     men?  Where did you think that they came from?  Did you think that they

Page 21376

 1     came from those municipalities that he mentioned to you?

 2        A.   That statement amended in the paragraph is the reason why

 3     interest first and foremost, I'll read it:

 4             [As read] "He estimated that approximately 15.000 persons had

 5     already left their usual place of residence and had started moving

 6     towards Dvor."  Dvor was the UNPA, this was within our day-to-day

 7     responsibility.  Being informed that 15.000 people headed your way was

 8     enough to get our attention.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  But didn't you think that they were all from

10     Bosanski Novi but rather from Bosanski Novi, Prijedor, Kljuc, Dubica

11     Sanski Most and Banja Luka, I'm talking about these 15.000 people?

12        A.   He made as much effort to ascertain where they were coming from.

13     To put this in context earlier than this date we had 4.000 people said to

14     be passing through the centre -- through the UNPA.  They turned out to be

15     9.000 and it was a huge operation lasting until midnight at night.  To be

16     informed that three times that number is headed your way, whether it

17     turned out to be true or not, that was significant.  That's why I'm

18     saying to the Court, we paid attention; very much so.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we now look at 1D4844.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And while we are waiting for the document can you tell us if you

23     that in your reports reported on discords and conflicts between Belgrade

24     and Pale, more precisely about the attempts on the part of

25     President Milosevic to overthrow those in power in the Republika Srpska?

Page 21377

 1        A.   Yes, there were some reports covering that subject, though the

 2     word "overthrow," it's the first time I'm hearing it.

 3        Q.   Very well.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]Can we look at the following page.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Is this your signature or rather is this the cover letter that

 7     you sent together with your associate's memorandum?  Is it true that the

 8     allegations about the arrest and remanding in custody of the 42 Muslims

 9     in the school were checked by you?

10        A.   Can I see the bottom of this report?

11        Q.   I would like to stay on this where you say:

12             [In English] "The fear of the presence of enemies in the area was

13     mitigated by the fact that the local authorities were visibly walking

14     around without any special direction."

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

17        Q.   Here you say that CIVPOL and POLBAT expressed their satisfaction

18     with the results and hoped to repeat this kind of co-operation.  When it

19     comes to the stories on the arrest of 42 Muslims did you check those

20     stories and did you find them not to be true?

21        A.   The area, Your Honour, referred to in the memo is inside the UNPA

22     and is about a half an hour's drive from my office, was under the

23     battalion from Poland.  It was easy to access, it was easy to check what

24     was going on.  So yes, this story wouldn't have been one of those

25     challenging ones to cover in its entirety.

Page 21378

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Unlike this time when you checked, are you saying

 2     that you did not have an occasion to travel to Bosnia to cross the border

 3     and check similar stories there?

 4        A.   Bosnia, the stories came to me even if I wasn't looking for them

 5     by virtue of the people who crossed over.  The difference between a story

 6     taking place in Slunj where this report took place, this is an area we

 7     all day go around doing what the Vance Plan requested us to do.  Bosnia

 8     on the other hand, we haven't been through this before.  There was no UN

 9     mandate in Bosnia, so it's not even an unwillingness to cross over there.

10     If you are in charge of UN assets, you don't deploy them where you have

11     no mandate, but the stories came to you because the effect of what was

12     going on couldn't be prevented from coming to you.  So that is the

13     distinction.  Not the fact that there was an unwillingness to go there or

14     even that inability of the logistics; we had car, we had planes, we had

15     all of that.  You can't deploy them except where the mandate requires

16     them to be deployed.  This was within the mandate.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.  Thank you.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1919, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we look at 65 ter 6757.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, just briefly if we can, please look at the document

Page 21379

 1     and just briefly confirm for us that this is indeed your report?

 2     8 October 1992, your report; right?

 3        A.   I recognise that as my signature covering a report.  This is the

 4     cover to a report.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you agree that in paragraph 4 at the end you claim that the

 8     Croatian government objected to the opening of borders for the Muslim

 9     refugees, and then in paragraph 5 you say that Muslims were resorting to

10     very bold attempts to lift the blockade and cross the territory that you

11     were responsible of; isn't that right?

12        A.   There's another paragraph on the second page to this document.

13        Q.   Yes, 5.  Paragraph 5.

14        A.   Yes, the paragraph talks about that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And now can we see the bottom part of the page.  Do

16     you say in paragraph 8 that most of the destabilizing activities or

17     events along the Cazinska Krajina stem from attempts by Muslims trapped

18     in that enclave to break out at all cost; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And then under (a) you mention two cases of infiltration.  Look

21     at (b) where you establish that the Muslims were engaged in the ethnical

22     cleansing of an area north of the rivers Prosinja and Bonja on the border

23     with Serbian Krajina and you say that of the original Serb population of

24     more than 28.000 Serbs living in Cazinska Krajina, less than 7.000 are

25     reported as still living in the Muslim enclave.  That was in October

Page 21380

 1     1992.  Up to then, the 21.000 mentioned in here had already been

 2     cleansed; right?

 3        A.   Yes, again the court should kindly place the occurrence of this

 4     event inside the UNPA, again with a different understanding of what these

 5     reports were about.  We are no longer talking about events across the

 6     border.  We are talking about events inside.  The infiltration is to

 7     inside the UNPA.  The absence of any number of ethnic groups in there was

 8     already a fact before the UNPA.  That area had been cleansed of mostly

 9     Croats in the UNPA, but also of some Muslims.  So to understand this

10     report is to where the Vance Plan mandate to understand what this report

11     was about.  It's different from what was going on across the border with

12     people coming from Bosnia.

13        Q.   Muslims and from other parts of Bosnia and Serbs from the Bihac

14     pocket arrived in your area; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we look at paragraphs

18     (c) and (d), where you say:  "Military fortification of the Muslim

19     stronghold.  Serb authorities claim that Cazinska Krajina is being

20     supplied militarily by air through a landing strip in Cazin."

21             Then under (d), you say that the Muslim commanders readily

22     welcome Muslim prisoners released by Serbs because they are then

23     mobilised again; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now can we look at paragraph 10 where you say that up

Page 21381

 1     to then, Serbs in UNPA zones tolerated Muslim refugees, but the question

 2     is how long is that going to last.  That's at the end of paragraph 10;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  Again you are probably going to begin to

 5     understand an earlier comment that I made that that was the area with the

 6     most complicated four-way fightings.  Serbs, Muslims, Croats, and Muslims

 7     versus Muslims.  This report begins to address because it was necessary

 8     for me to file reports covering the entire mandate of the UN, so this was

 9     beginning to tell them this area is beginning to take this shape.  Vance

10     Plan required the status quo be held before the solution would come from

11     [indiscernible] in Geneva.  People were not supposed -- whether they were

12     Muslim, Serbs or Croats, to be moved from where they were.  The agreement

13     in Belgrade and in Zagreb was everybody was to stay where they are and if

14     possible people should return where they came from.  This report begins

15     now to address those issues.

16             So I would like Dr. Karadzic to be aware of when something was

17     happening inside the UNPA and a reportage of the same, it had different

18     dimensions of informing, clarifying, and forewarning what was going on.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  Thank you.

20             Five more minutes, Dr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can the document be admitted.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Dr. Kirudja, can you please confirm whether these are things that

25     you observed and described as happening in your UNPA zone?  There were

Page 21382

 1     Muslim and Serb refugees and can you confirm that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do so authenticate this report as one of my reports.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I am sorry.  Just on that last

 5     document that Your Honour asked me if I had any objection and I said that

 6     I didn't and that was admitted as D1919.  I didn't object because it was

 7     authored by the witness but it's simply not relevant to this indictment.

 8     It's in the UNPA and the passages were read into the record that

 9     Dr. Karadzic wanted to put to the witness, so I think it's -- I should

10     have objected at the time and I'm sorry I didn't.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  I don't think there's anything lost.  As with

12     all documents, its admission and weight of course are two separate

13     considerations.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the current document is

15     Exhibit P3860, part of the associated exhibits.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now look at

17     1D4841.  I apologise, our team is very small, it's very hard for me to

18     follow things and I don't want to waste time on the documents that have

19     already been admitted into evidence.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is also your signature and this is also one of your

22     documents; right?

23        A.   It's a cover to the document.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go immediately to page 5.

Page 21383

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you agree that you report that in your zone there are 15.000

 3     Serb refugees and displaced persons, that they are accommodated in their

 4     relative's houses and in the houses of their friends?

 5        A.   Once again, Your Honour, this document, again, is about the UNPA.

 6     The reference is the protection of minorities who were there before we

 7     entered and they could have been any minority, whether they were Croat or

 8     Muslims.  So as long as you understand this also is in the same category

 9     as the other document, the issues being discussed are within the Vance

10     Plan, within the UNPA.

11        Q.   But, Dr. Kirudja, the 15.000 refugees were refugees from Bosnia,

12     obviously.  The process was over there and peace was already established

13     there; right?

14        A.   It says so in paragraph 26 over there where they say those 15.000

15     refugees live in Sector North and they already taken refuge there.

16     Vance Plan required that no movement be made, status quo be maintained.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  And come to your last question, please,

18     Dr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  The witness has spoken to it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1920, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last document then.

23             I would like to ask you to tell us whether the documents you were

24     so kind to review are authentic.

25             Could we next have 65 ter 5168.

Page 21384

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   It is your report.  On page 1 we have the Serb-Muslim segment

 3     where you discuss medical evacuation and humanitarian convoys which

 4     regularly traversed the sector.  And they went across the crossing points

 5     that are specified.

 6        A.   Yes, I recognise the document.

 7        Q.   Can we go to the next page so that you can have a look, and then

 8     on page 3 we have the all-Serb border segment.  Do you agree that the

 9     Serbs who were on both sides of the river could not have been interested

10     in destroying the bridge connecting them?

11        A.   What paragraph is that?

12        Q.   Paragraph 9.  It discusses your awareness that Serbs live on both

13     sides of the river in Bosanska Kostajnica and Hrvatska Kostajnica, as

14     well as, Dorno Uni [phoen] and Bosanski Novi.  Do you agree that when

15     Serbs are on both sides of the river, they are not interested in

16     destroying the bridge; correct?

17        A.   Number one, Your Honour, there were more than one bridge along

18     that segment that we are discussing.  Number two, yes, I would to a

19     limited extent expect what Dr. Karadzic said to be true, but only to a

20     limited extent.  The only time you can recognise that won't be true is if

21     the Croats had attacked, which they eventually did from their side, that

22     won't be true.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, that looking at the time that must

24     be it, and --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I wanted to refer

Page 21385

 1     you to line 6.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   How did you receive information that there was ethnic cleansing

 4     in Bosanska Dubica when the Muslims themselves specified some

 5     municipalities including Dubica in which ethnic cleansing did not occur?

 6        A.   Can I see paragraph 6, please.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  I think it was line 6 rather than paragraph 6,

 8     Dr. Kirudja.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Oh, in my testimony.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   No, no, in this document.  Paragraph 9, line 6.  Was this also

13     based on refugee stories or did you have some other insight or proof?

14        A.   There were a number of people moving across that border.  One

15     group I vividly remember had crossed from Dubica.  I was called by the

16     Danish military and all the military observers that covered that area

17     that this group of people were surrounded by Serb who demanded that they

18     don't move from there and they were in danger of being mis-characterised

19     not as refugees but as terrorists.  That -- when we went there we found

20     them and began to debrief them, where they were coming from.  And we

21     developed that that area was also being cleared of non-Serbs from their

22     testimony.  The Serb authorities were quite co-operative in not demanding

23     that they put them in prison but by releasing them for custody with the

24     civil affairs and sending them out.  Yes, many of those stories came from

25     people who had the stories to tell.

Page 21386

 1             And, lastly, while we could not deploy either the soldiers or the

 2     UN civil police across the border to Dubica, we had an agreement with

 3     both sides to deploy military observers.  These are not formed units.

 4     These are individual military observers who [indiscernible] that area.

 5     So both sides of these border segments, whether it was controlled by the

 6     Serbs on both sides or not, we had military observers on that side.  And

 7     we had NGOs and we had European monitoring, all the sources that were

 8     mentioned in the paragraphs that I drew the court's attention, taking

 9     them together, we could piece together what was going on, where these

10     people were coming from.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

12             Ms. Sutherland, any re-examination?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  Over the break, I read the

14     transcript and it's very clear.  Sorry, there's no need for any

15     re-examination.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, there's just one

18     housekeeping matter, Exhibit 65 ter 06732 that the Prosecutor had

19     indicated was part of Exhibit D470 but the Registry advises us that it's

20     not so I would tender that at this time.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, I was informed about that, so that can be

22     exhibited under a separate number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1921, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since there is no redirect, I just

Page 21387

 1     wanted to ask Dr. Kirudja whether he believed that Serbs from one side of

 2     the river drove Muslims out without notifying the Serbs on the other side

 3     of the river?  How could you accept what they told you when --

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, the Court has ruled and you've

 5     been given a huge amount of leeway with this witness.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I have --

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Kirudja.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, just for my own understanding of the

 9     disposition of some, one document that I was given to review by

10     Dr. Karadzic's side, and I could ask the Courts to consider this document

11     dated 29 of April 1995 is among the document, it's a very personal and

12     confidential document.  Has nothing to do with anything in the criminal

13     trial and I wondered whether the Court would expunge it from this

14     document.  It's a personal document.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  I don't think that's been tendered.  Certainly

17     not as far as I am aware before the court.  Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  I think it would be helpful to explain to the

19     witness that although he was asked to review documents -- I presume this

20     is one of the documents he was asked to review during the lunch break,

21     although he was asked to review documents, the only documents tendered

22     into evidence are the ones that were actually presented to him

23     subsequently in court, so the fact that he reviewed the document doesn't

24     mean that that document is entered the evidence base.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  I hope that reassures you, Dr. Kirudja.

Page 21388

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I would like the same assurance that

 2     the source who gave me, Dr. Karadzic, that this document is a purely

 3     personal document.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  I think you can rely on Dr. Karadzic to honour

 5     that.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Dr. Kirudja, thank you very much for

 8     attending and giving evidence before us, particularly, thank you for

 9     bearing with what is a very extended day.  I thank the interpreters and

10     all staff and indeed everybody for their indulgence as well.

11             [Swahili spoken]

12             THE WITNESS:  [Swahili spoken] I'm glad you could say that.  It

13     makes me feel a little at home.

14             Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you, we'll all rise.  Thank you, we sit

16     again, I believe next Wednesday at 1.00.  12.00.  Thank you.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.27 p.m.

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

20                           November, 2011, at 12.00 p.m.