Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21389

 1                           Wednesday, 16 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 12.01 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning and good afternoon.  For the first

 6     session, we will sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison away,

 7     who is coming on his way now to the Tribunal.  I am absolutely confident

 8     he will be with us from next session on.

 9             Yes, Mr. Tieger.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I need to go into

11     private session for a very short time to deal with some associated

12     exhibits with the last witness.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Could the Chamber move into private

14     session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 21390











11  Page 21390 redacted.  Private session.















Page 21391

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are in public session, Ms. Sutherland.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, in relation to the video-tapes that

12     are associated with Dr. Kirudja's amalgamated statement, and they are

13     referred to in paragraph 163 of his statement.  These are several clips

14     from 65 ter 40387, and I have been instructed to advise Your Honours that

15     four clips are Exhibit P49 from the Stanisic/Simatovic case.

16             Clips 1, 2, and 3 of Exhibit P49 in the Stanisic/Simatovic case

17     are contained under 65 ter 40387C in this case, and we would seek to

18     tender those.

19             And clip 4 of P49 in the Stanisic/Simatovic case is already in

20     evidence in our case and is contained under Exhibit P02158.

21             And there is an additional clip under 65 ter 40387, which is also

22     detailed in paragraph 163 and footnote 358 of Dr. Kirudja's amalgamated

23     statement, and this clip is identified as 65 ter 40387D, and we would

24     seek to tender that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So what are admitted are 40387C and D.

Page 21392

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I'm not sure whether the exhibit numbers

 3     were given.

 4             Very well.  I was told that it was admitted as one exhibit.  I

 5     don't see any problem with that.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3879, Your Honours.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Very well, Your Honour.  And finally, the last

 8     administrative matter I wish to deal with was in relation to Mr. Krejic's

 9     testimony, and it's Exhibit P03760.  You may recall that I stated that

10     there were a number of procedural matters dealt with in that prior

11     transcript, and I have discussed these proposed redactions with

12     Mr. Robinson, who is in agreement, and the redacted version has been

13     uploaded in e-court.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for that information, Ms. Sutherland.

15             Then please call your next witness.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The Prosecution calls Dr. Idriz Merdzanic.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I take it the parties are informed of today's -- as

18     of today's sitting?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  IDRIZ MERDZANIC

Page 21393

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Dr. Merdzanic.  Please make yourself

 3     comfortable.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 6                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

 7        Q.   Sir, could you please state your full name.

 8        A.   Merdzanic is my last name, and Idriz is my first name.

 9        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, as we discussed, part of your evidence in this

10     case will be submitted in writing, and we first need to deal with the

11     formalities associated with that submission.

12             You've testified in three trials before the ICTY, and in

13     particular, the Stakic trial on the 10th and 11th of September, 2002.

14             On the 12th of September, 2002, did you provide a handwritten

15     document to the Tribunal regarding your Stakic testimony?

16        A.   That is correct.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Registrar, could I have 65 ter 23496 on the

18     screen, please.

19        Q.   Do you recognise the document that's on the screen in front of

20     you?

21        A.   Yes.  That is what I have written.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can barely hear the

23     witness.  Could all other microphones please be switched off when the

24     witness is speaking.  Thank you.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 21394

 1        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, does this clarify an issue in your Stakic

 2     testimony in relation to the check-points in Kozarac?

 3        A.   Correct.  There was one question whether there was a check-point

 4     at the entrance into Kozarac, and I thought about that after the trial,

 5     and I remembered that there was an obstacle there for this tank that was

 6     at the crossroads near the entrance into Kozarac.

 7        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, have you had the opportunity to review the audio

 8     recordings of your Stakic testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, there is one word at transcript

11     page 7769, line 16, when he was asked in chief about the film that was

12     taken about the time at Keraterm, and the word "Keraterm" should read

13     "Trnopolje."

14        Q.   And you agree with that correction, Dr. Merdzanic?

15        A.   It is correct.  I was never in Keraterm.

16        Q.   With those clarifications, the document that you see on the

17     screen and the one that we just spoke about, can you confirm that your

18     Stakic testimony accurately reflects your statements at the time?

19        A.   I can confirm that along with an explanation that I'd like to

20     provide.  When I read this, I noticed that the time between the

21     announcement of the journalists' visit and the arrival of the

22     International Red Cross, it was sort of unclear.  I would like to clarify

23     that.  When it was announced that journalists would arrive and then up

24     until the arrival of the International Red Cross, hundreds of persons

25     were killed and I think that that should be clarified.

Page 21395

 1        Q.   When you say hundreds of people were -- were killed, can you

 2     elaborate on that, please?

 3        A.   Yes.  If you'll allow me to explain it now, I will.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Could you indicate first, Ms. Sutherland, what

 5     part -- what pages are dealing with that part, the interval between the

 6     announcement and the arrival.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the arrival of the journalists --

 8     the first visit of the journalists starts on page 7793.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That's sufficient.  Why don't you

10     proceed with the witness.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   Mr. -- Dr. Merdzanic, when you say that a large number of people

13     were killed, can you elaborate on who you were actually referring to.

14        A.   Camp inmates.  When Dr. Karadzic promised in London that he would

15     allow journalists to visit the camps because he had claimed that they

16     were no camps, he returned to Bosnia and then an order arrived from Pale

17     from Dr. Karadzic to have the camps prepared for the journalists' visits.

18     Until the camps were prepared, the journalists could not come.  This

19     order for the camps to prepare for the visits was basically a death

20     sentence for many camp inmates.

21             As for the Keraterm camp, it was decided to have it completely

22     emptied and to have all the camp inmates removed.  Since there were a

23     great many camp inmates, they didn't know what to do with them --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Doctor, I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Did you mean

25     Keraterm camp?  Did you not say that you have never been to Keraterm

Page 21396

 1     camp?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking about the Keraterm

 3     camp because it's tied to Trnopolje, because part of these people came to

 4     Trnopolje.  So I'm speaking along those lines.  You can understand only

 5     if all three camps are explained together.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, so you indicated earlier that there were a large

 9     number of people killed, and you have just provided an answer then to say

10     that this order for the camps to -- to be prepared for the visits was

11     basically a death sentence for many camp inmates.  Can you -- can you

12     just elaborate on -- on what you mean by that?

13        A.   Yes.  I will try to explain that briefly now.  They reached a

14     simple decision for Keraterm.  Part of these people were supposed to be

15     transferred to Trnopolje.  As for one hangar, they simply put

16     machine-guns in front of the door to that hangar, and they killed

17     everybody who was inside.  Crljenkovic Enes was the only person to

18     survive.  He is alive to this day.  Everybody else was killed, over

19     100 people.  Some people were taken in an unknown direction.  That is as

20     far as Keraterm is concerned.

21             Omarska was also supposed to prepare for the arrival of the

22     journalists.  Some people were sent to Manjaca.  That is a camp that was

23     at the military barracks in Manjaca.  Before they handed them over, they

24     killed some of them.  Women and minors were first sent to Trnopolje.

25     Some of the inmates were hidden somewhere, taken away on buses and

Page 21397

 1     trucks, and then after the journalists left, they were brought to

 2     Trnopolje; whereas some persons were taken away in an unknown direction,

 3     and to this day their bones are still being discovered in the places

 4     where they were killed.

 5             For a small number of people they prepared military cots with bed

 6     linen, food, and those are the people they showed to the journalists.

 7             Now, as far as Trnopolje is concerned, let us try to link all of

 8     this up and see why I'm putting it this way.  In Trnopolje, people knew

 9     for quite a while that the journalists would come to visit the camp, and

10     since Trnopolje was already full, they organised convoys so that the camp

11     could be emptied, at least halfway, so that inmates from Keraterm and

12     Omarska would have room there.

13             The women and children who had arrived from Omarska were

14     released, taken to Prijedor.  A fence was put up between the shop for

15     construction material and the other house on the other side, and that is

16     where they put these people.  All the women and children practically --

17     the women and children from Trnopolje were practically taken away in a

18     convoy, and that was the first time that they allowed men to leave in

19     that convoy.  This is not the convoy that was taken to Vlasic.  That was

20     a convoy before that.

21        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, the -- the evidence that you're just giving now

22     about the fence that was put up is -- is dealt with in your Stakic

23     testimony, so we won't go over that again now.

24             So with that clarification that you've just given, if you were

25     asked about the same matters here in court today that were discussed with

Page 21398

 1     you in the Stakic -- that you gave evidence about in the Stakic case,

 2     would you provide the same information?

 3        A.   It's the same information except that this convoy for Vlasic was

 4     organised when Dr. Karadzic allowed the camp of Trnopolje to be taken

 5     over by the International Red Cross.  Before they arrived, they organised

 6     a big convoy in order to reduce the number of inmates even more.  So when

 7     the International Red Cross arrived, there were a lot less inmates,

 8     whereas those who were sent via Vlasic were taken out of this convoy and

 9     killed.

10        Q.   And again, Dr. Merdzanic, with that additional clarification, if

11     you were asked about the same matters here in court today as you were --

12     you gave evidence about in the Stakic case, would you provide the same

13     information, that is, even if you couldn't give it word-for-word, the

14     essence of your answers would be the same?

15        A.   Yes, the same.  However, having said that, this was based on the

16     order from Pale and Dr. Karadzic, namely, to prepare these camps for the

17     arrival of the journalists and for them to be cleansed.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 22174A, which is

20     the English transcript of Dr. Merdzanic's testimony.  And I note in the

21     English transcript there's an incorrect spelling of the name Sahuric on

22     transcript pages 7739, 7826, and 7860.  It should be spelled

23     S-a-h-u-r-i-c.  And there is also a mistake in the transcript at

24     page 7779, lines 21 to 22.  There's a reference to Exhibit S15-41 and

25     that should be S15-14, which is already Exhibit P00602 in our case.

Page 21399

 1             I also seek to tender 65 ter 22714B, which is a redacted public

 2     version of the witness's Stakic testimony, and 65 ter 23496, which is the

 3     handwritten correction which the doctor provided at the completion of his

 4     Stakic testimony.  I would seek to tender those three documents.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just three documents being transcript and redacted

 6     version and what?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And then this -- this document that

 8     Dr. Merdzanic recognised this morning, which was put up on the screen.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  Now I understand.

10             Mr. Robinson.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  They will be all admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 22174A will be

14     Exhibit P3880, under seal.

15             22174B will be Exhibit P3881.  And 65 ter 23496 will be

16     Exhibit P3882.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And before going further, Ms. Sutherland, you stated

18     that had what Mr. -- Dr. Merdzanic said this -- today was covered in his

19     Stakic testimony, but my understanding is that it is true that he said

20     that camp, Trnopolje camp was prepared for the arrival from Keraterm, but

21     he didn't say at that time as to the killing at the Keraterm itself.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  I was specifically referring

23     to the fence that is -- that is dealt with in his Stakic testimony.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  And, Your Honour, actually we didn't object or

25     interrupt the witness, but would I hope that you could take that in

Page 21400

 1     consideration if Dr. Karadzic needs some additional time for his

 2     cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll see how it will evolve.

 4             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Please continue.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And with Your Honours' leave, we'll read a

 6     summary of the witness's written evidence.

 7             Dr. Idriz Merdzanic, a Bosniak, lived in the Prijedor

 8     municipality from 1988 until he was detained at the end of May 1992.  In

 9     1989, he began working as a physician in the Prijedor Health Centre,

10     which was responsible for health clinics in the municipality.  In 1991,

11     the witness was in charge of the Trnopolje outpatient clinic and in

12     mid-1991 was also assigned to the sawmill in Kozarac where he was in

13     charge of treating employees of that company.

14             Dr. Merdzanic testified about the arming of the Serb population

15     and the distribution of weapons by the JNA in early 1992.  He testified

16     about the increase in Serb military forces and the establishment of

17     check-points in the area.

18             The witness testified that he heard about negotiations concerning

19     the Kozarac police force which were led by Stojan Zupljanin.  The Kozarac

20     police were given an ultimatum to accept the Serb insignia and fly Serb

21     flags in Kozarac by a certain date, otherwise the army would take Kozarac

22     by force if the conditions were not met by the stipulated dead-line.

23     When the ultimatum expired, people were no longer allowed to leave

24     Kozarac.

25             The witness described the attack on Kozarac on the

Page 21401

 1     24th of May, 1992.  The shelling lasted for two days.  During this attack

 2     the witness treated people for injuries received from shelling and

 3     infantry weapons.  The witness contacted the military command that was

 4     attacking Kozarac and asked for permission to evacuate two seriously

 5     wounded children that were dying.  The reply he received was, quote, "Let

 6     all of you Balija die there.  We will kill you anyway."  A number of

 7     people died as a result of injuries received during the attack.  And this

 8     is scheduled incident A 10.1.

 9             On the 26th of May, 1992, the witness was taken from Kozarac to

10     the Trnopolje camp, which is scheduled detention facility C 20.4.  Along

11     with many of the men, women, and children, he was taken to Trnopolje --

12     he was taken to Trnopolje that day.

13             The witness remained in the camp until 30th of September, 1992.

14             Dr. Merdzanic testified about the inhumane conditions including

15     lack of adequate food or hygiene, beatings, rapes, and several killings,

16     and this is schedule incident B 15.5.  He described how he treated

17     detainees for dysentery, body lice, scabies, and hepatitis, all of which

18     are consistent with extremely unsanitary conditions.  He testified that

19     he reported incidents of rape to the camp authorities.

20             The witness testified that all around Trnopolje camp there were

21     guard posts with guards.  The wire fence was put up at Trnopolje to

22     contain prisoners from Keraterm and Omarska, and after the first visit of

23     journalists, which included Penny Marshall, the fence was taken down.

24             Dr. Merdzanic also described the second visit to Trnopolje camp

25     by Penny Marshall and a visit by the ICRC in August 1992.

Page 21402

 1             The witness testified that when the buildings at Trnopolje were

 2     filled to capacity and could no longer hold any more people, the first

 3     convoy of women, children and elderly men was organised.  Continuing the

 4     forcible removal of non-Serbs from their homes in the area surrounding

 5     Trnopolje led to an increase in the detainee population in the camp.

 6             The witness gave evidence about the convoy that left Trnopolje

 7     camp and went over Mount Vlasic.  Later the witness heard that younger

 8     men were taken off the convoy and killed on Mount Vlasic.  And this is

 9     scheduled incident B 15.6.

10             Prior to leaving the camp on a convoy on the 30th of September,

11     1992, the witness and others had to sign certificates to the effect that

12     they were abandoning all their property to the Serb authorities.

13             That completes the summary of the witness's written evidence.

14        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, I just have a limited number of questions for you.

15     You worked at the Prijedor Health Centre in 1992?

16        A.   [Microphone not activated] ... all belonged to Prijedor.  I was

17     officially employed in Prijedor but my clinic was in Trnopolje.

18        Q.   Was the employment of non-Serbs terminated after the takeover of

19     power by the Serb authorities?  And here I'm specifically referring to

20     persons in the hospital who worked in the Prijedor Health Centre.

21        A.   Yes.  They were first dismissed from the health centre.  They

22     were summoned to come to work and the director of the health centre,

23     Dr. Dereta [phoen] lined them up in the corridor at the entrance and told

24     them that from that day on, they are no longer allowed in the building

25     and shouldn't come to work again.  The same happened to the Muslim

Page 21403

 1     workers at the hospital in Prijedor a day or two later.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 18897 on the screen,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, this is a list of 114 names, and this is a

 5     document that you recently reviewed.  It's a list of employees whose

 6     employment has expired and it lists a number of -- of doctors and other

 7     staff from the general hospital Prijedor and the dates of when their

 8     contract was expired.  Do you know a number of these persons listed on

 9     this list?

10        A.   The staff is mixed also with the staff from the hospital and the

11     health centre.  I know only a smaller number of them.  I was not born in

12     Prijedor.  I moved there in 1988, and I was working more in the field.  I

13     didn't know personally most of these people.

14        Q.   And do you know why the employment was terminated of the people

15     that you do know on this list?

16        A.   They were all either Muslim or Croat.  At that time, I was

17     already in Kozarac, and as far as I know, the only reason for their

18     termination was that they were Muslims, and most of them did not agree to

19     be mobilised and go to the war zones in Croatia.  I'm not aware of any

20     other reason.

21        Q.   Did your wife also work at the hospital?

22        A.   My wife worked at the health centre, and she was in that group of

23     personnel to whom Dr. Dereta said that they should not come to work any

24     more.  They were prohibited from coming to work anymore, and that was

25     without any explanation.

Page 21404

 1        Q.   And are you able to read out the number of the -- next to the

 2     names of the doctors that you -- that you are familiar with on this list?

 3     Or doctors and other staff.

 4        A.   For instance, number 46, Dr. Esad Sadikovic.  He was involved in

 5     those negotiations, and then when their army occupied Prijedor, he was

 6     taken to Omarska and killed.  Then Dr. Zeljko Sikora was also taken to

 7     Omarska, I think.

 8        Q.   And if we could go to page 2, please.

 9        A.   I also heard of Islam Bahonjic, but I'm not sure what became of

10     him.  Dr. Emir Keric, I know him as well.  Number 91, it says Emir Henim,

11     in fact it's Henic.  I know the man.  Then Dr. Zoran Vikalo.  He's a Serb

12     doctor.  And it's interesting, then, when the forced mobilisation was

13     going on, he was hiding and later fled to Croatia to avoid mobilisation.

14        Q.   And if we can go to the third page, please.

15        A.   Dr. Majda Sadikovic, and I know also Dr. Ibrahim Henic.

16        Q.   Do you also know Dr. Begic who worked at the hospital?

17        A.   I know him.  He was a surgeon, and he worked for a while in the

18     hospital even after the takeover as long as they needed him, but when

19     they no longer needed him, they took him to Omarska and killed him.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender that document.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3883, Your Honours.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, I have no further questions for you.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender the associated

Page 21405

 1     exhibits, and in relation to the videos, I have the time-codes.  I don't

 2     know whether you want me to read them out.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  65 ter 40424?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  That's -- that needs to be tendered as

 5     65 ter 40424C.  The time-code is 00:31:31 to 00:32:03.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I have a couple of further questions.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour.  There's one other video.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  65 ter 40470 is -- needs to be referred to as

10     40424C -- 404, sorry, 70C, and the time-code for that is 00:05:38 to

11     00:06:17.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  With respect to 65 ter numbers, starting

13     from 20535 to 20537, i.e., three documents containing two photos each,

14     from the transcript and the photos itself, it's not clear what these

15     photographs testify to in terms of relevance and probative value.  If you

16     could explain that to us.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could -- if I can actually just quickly

18     deal with them with the witness.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter 20535 on the screen,

21     please.

22        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, you were shown this photograph in the -- during

23     your Stakic testimony.

24        A.   Correct.  We made those photographs with the camera that belonged

25     for -- to Arap Gulasovic [as interpreted] and they were made in Trnopolje

Page 21406

 1     at the clinic the first day when we came.  The top photograph shows Mujo,

 2     the technician.  Next to him is a man who was a patient.  He just spent

 3     there one night.  And the photograph below shows me and Dr. Dzonlagic.

 4        Q.   Is that Hase Dzonlagic on the left and you on the right?

 5        A.   Hase Dzonlagic is on the left and I am closer up.

 6        Q.   And in your answer you said that these were photographs with the

 7     camera that belonged to -- and the name in the transcript is -- is --

 8     were you referring to Azra Blazevic?

 9        A.   Yes.  I already said it belonged to Azra Blazevic.

10        Q.   And these photographs were taken early in the days of being at

11     Trnopolje camp; is that right?

12        A.   Correct.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender that document.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's go through the other document --

15             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Overlapping speakers] If could I have 65 ter

16     20536 on the screen.

17        Q.   Do you recognise that -- those photographs?

18        A.   They are also from Trnopolje.  Below you see Azra Blazevic, and

19     the one at the top is Sefik.  I forget his last name, but I did state it

20     in my previous statements.

21        Q.   Sefik Karabasic?

22        A.   Correct.  Sefik Karabasic.

23        Q.   And he was also working with you in the medical centre?

24        A.   I don't think he worked at the health centre.  He only joined to

25     help us during the shelling in Kozarac, and he came with us to Trnopolje

Page 21407

 1     from Kozarac.  I don't know what his normal occupation is because I

 2     didn't know him before.

 3        Q.   And he was with you in the clinic at Trnopolje?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's a photograph from Trnopolje.

 5        Q.   And that was where you -- you had to -- you slept in the medical

 6     centre?

 7        A.   We also slept there.  We had everything there.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If could have 65 ter 20537.

 9        Q.   Do you recognise that photograph?

10        A.   The one at the top shows a nurse, that's also in Trnopolje, and

11     below is Gutic Vasim [as interpreted], a student of medicine, and next to

12     him is Goga, who came with us to Trnopolje, but she was Serb, and the

13     Serbs told her she couldn't stay.  She had to go home.

14        Q.   And the gentleman that you mentioned that -- that is on the right

15     of the photo, the name again in the transcript, is that Vasif Gutic?

16        A.   Vasif Gutic, who was a student of medicine then.

17        Q.   And of these three photographs, are they simply putting faces to

18     names that you testify about in your transcript as -- as persons that

19     were with you in the medical centre at Trnopolje camp?

20        A.   Yes, of course.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender those photographs.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  With respect to 65 ter 20743, which is a

23     diagram drawn by the witness depicting Trnopolje camp, I think we need an

24     English translation.  Until -- until then, we'll mark it for

25     identification.  Then one final matter is related to 65 ter 40469A, which

Page 21408

 1     is an excerpt from serial dispatches.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  The time-code for that video

 3     is 00:09:00 to 00:09:41.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But, however, did the witness recognise the place

 5     show -- shown in the video?  I'm not sure.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we can -- we could play that clip

 7     very quickly.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's -- it's 30 seconds long.  Or 45 --

10     41 seconds.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need to switch to Sanction.  Yes.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Mr. Reid has it ready.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let us play it again.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             "But not everything is normal.  There is evidence of what has

16     happened.  Along the main road.  These are burnt-out Muslim homes.  The

17     cross in a circle is a Serb's way of marking them out for special

18     attention.  This is ethnic cleansing with a vengeance, and it was

19     thorough."

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:

21        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, did you recognise the -- the houses in the footage

22     that you just saw?

23        A.   I'm not sure, not 100 per cent, but I believe that is a part of

24     Kozarac next to the main road that goes from Prijedor to Banja Luka.  But

25     again, I'm not sure because the picture is very dark, and the houses were

Page 21409

 1     not so completely destroyed when we were leaving Kozarac, but I believe

 2     that's the lower part of Kozarac, closer to the Banja Luka-Prijedor road.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit that, including that, then

 5     all the -- with the -- all the clarification and all the associate

 6     exhibits will be admitted into evidence and given number in due course.

 7             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I -- just so that we're on

 9     the same wavelength that the Chamber would not be giving any weight to

10     the commentary that was in that video other than the commentary that the

11     witness has given to us.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Instead of starting the cross-examination now, we'll take the

14     break now, and we'll resume at 20 -- yes, half past 1.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.57 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  As indicated by Ms. Sutherland, Dr. Merdzanic, your

18     testimony given in the previous case was admitted in its entirety in lieu

19     of your examination-in-chief.  Now you'll be further asked by

20     Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good afternoon,

23     Excellency.  Good afternoon to all.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Merdzanic.

Page 21410

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Since our time is short, I'll try to put questions that are as

 3     clear as possible, especially with regard to matters we can easily agree

 4     upon.  So most of your answers can be a simple yes or no.  Of course, I

 5     am not restricting you in any way.

 6             In every one of your testimonies, did you take an oath stating

 7     that you would say the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

 8        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.

 9        Q.   When you testify, do you adjust your testimony to the person who

10     stands accused?

11        A.   No, but emphasis is laid on the person who is accused, so then

12     perhaps one can emphasise things that are the responsibility of the

13     person who is accused.

14        Q.   Who is it that indicates that to you, what you're supposed to

15     emphasise?

16        A.   I'm over 18.  I'm of age, and I think that I can make my own

17     decisions.

18        Q.   Oh, so you do make a selection after all.  You do adjust things,

19     don't you?

20        A.   As for my view of the situation, that is what I present here.

21     The Judges are here to hear all the parties, collect evidence, and rule.

22     So this is just what comes from my side.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   You're welcome.

25        Q.   How come you never mentioned that my order was a death sentence

Page 21411

 1     for hundreds of people?

 2        A.   I was not -- I was not asked directly, and it was not your trial.

 3     This is the first time that I'm attending your trial, and you decided to

 4     have these camps prepared for the arrival of the journalists, and I was

 5     there, and I saw how these camps were being prepared for the arrival of

 6     the journalists.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  How do you know that I ordered something?

 8        A.   That's quite simple.  It's only logical.  In principle --

 9        Q.   Just a minute.  Just a minute.  Let us agree that you should say

10     only what you know, not what is logical.  Do you know?  Did you see my

11     order --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you asked how he did know that you

13     ordered something.  Then you should hear him out.  Don't interrupt the

14     witness, please.

15             Dr. Merdzanic, could you repeat your answer or start it again,

16     please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, that is quite logical.

18     Dr. Karadzic promised journalists that he would let them visit the camps.

19     The journalists came to the camps through Karadzic in Pale.  Those who

20     held the camps had no idea about that.  The only way they could find out

21     that journalists were coming was if Karadzic sent them that information

22     from Pale.  Nobody else could give that kind of information.

23             I said what he had ordered.  I'm not going into whether he had

24     issued precise orders to have these persons killed or not.  I'm just

25     saying that that decision meant a death sentence for the camp inmates.

Page 21412

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see any order of mine?  Let me put it that

 3     way then.  Did you see any order of mine in that respect?

 4        A.   No, I did not see any order of yours, but I'm intelligent enough

 5     to be able to reach certain conclusions.  I know how much 2 plus 2 is.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  With all due respect, Doctor, you know that in

 7     medicine also people have to reach conclusions on the basis of facts.  So

 8     I kindly ask you to give answers about what you know.

 9        A.   I have just given you an answer based on facts.

10        Q.   Why did you not say earlier on that hundreds of people had been

11     killed?

12        A.   People knew earlier on as well that in Keraterm an entire hangar

13     had been killed and that people were killed in Vlasic.  That was

14     discussed sufficiently, most definitely.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Before both of you continue.  Dr. Merdzanic, since

16     you're speaking the same language and both of which are to be

17     interpreted, if you could pay attention sufficiently to put a pause

18     between you start answering the question.  I appreciate your kindness.

19             Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So you were not in Keraterm, and you did not see these killings;

23     right?

24        A.   I was not, but after being in camp, I talked to Enes Crljenkovic

25     who survived all of that.

Page 21413

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Today on page 9 you said that on the basis of my

 2     order or information to the effect that journalists would come and the

 3     International Red Cross, a convoy went to Vlasic and these people were

 4     killed there; right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   You said, on page 9, that that was done in order to reduce the

 7     number before the Red Cross arrives; right?

 8        A.   Before the International Red Cross arrive.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the International Red Cross

10     arrived on the 15th of August?

11        A.   As far as I know, yes.

12        Q.   And is it correct that the killings were committed on the

13     21st of August?

14        A.   I cannot say now.  I don't have this information when this

15     happened exactly.  This convoy left before the inmates were registered by

16     the International Red Cross.  The International Red Cross had not arrived

17     yet, had not registered these inmates yet, those who were taken to Vlasic

18     and killed there.

19        Q.   I'm just asking you whether these dates are correct:  The

20     15th of August, the Red Cross visited, and the 21st of August, the crime

21     at Koricanske Stijene was committed.  Is that right yes or no?

22        A.   I don't know when the crime was committed at Koricanske Stijene.

23     I just know that the International Red Cross had not registered these

24     people yet.  They appeared on the 15th, but this convoy had left before

25     the International Red Cross arrived and managed to register these people.

Page 21414

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Today the distinguished Madam Sutherland interpreted

 2     your positions on page 12 that the ultimatum to Kozarac was issued

 3     because of the flag and the insignia on police caps; right?

 4        A.   I did not attend these meetings.  Now, whether that is the way it

 5     was exactly -- well, at any rate, the policemen in Kozarac opposed that.

 6     They did not want to recognise the Serb authorities, and they did not

 7     allow the Serb police to take over Kozarac, where the population was

 8     Muslim.

 9        Q.   Are you saying that the conflict in Kozarac broke out because of

10     the flag and insignia?

11        A.   Well, in principle, the conflict did not break out on account of

12     that.  The conflict broke out because the Serbs wanted to take Kozarac.

13        Q.   Did they want to take Kozarac because of the flag and insignia or

14     because of something else?

15        A.   No, it was of great strategic importance for them to create a

16     great ethnically pure Serbia.  That was the real reason.  The insignia

17     were probably just a pretext or an excuse for the Serbs.

18        Q.   Do you know that Mr. Zupljanin wrote that Kotor Varos and

19     Prijedor do not have to use these insignia?

20        A.   I don't know that, but I know that they attacked Kozarac and got

21     the tanks out.

22        Q.   On page 14 - and could we please call this up now, P3883 - you

23     spoke about the list of persons whose employment had terminated.  Do you

24     know that termination of employment is one thing and dismissal is

25     another?

Page 21415

 1        A.   These persons were forbidden from coming to work any longer.

 2        Q.   Who can confirm what you're saying just now?

 3        A.   My wife can.  She was there personally, and those were the orders

 4     issued to her.  And all of these people from the list, if they are still

 5     alive, can confirm that too.

 6        Q.   When was your wife told that it would not be a good idea for her

 7     to come to work for a while?  Wasn't that the way it had been put?

 8        A.   No, that's not true.  They were forbidden from coming back to

 9     work ever again.  They were not eligible to work any longer.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is she on this list?

11        A.   No, she's not on this list.

12        Q.   Are you on this list?

13        A.   No, I am not on this list.

14        Q.   So she was told after the attack on Prijedor on the 30th not to

15     come to work for a while; right?

16        A.   I don't know exactly.  I'd have to ask my wife what date that

17     was.

18        Q.   On the other hand, can we say, then, that up until the

19     25th of May, that is the latest date here, I think, the 25th of May, that

20     up until the 25th of May, both you and your wife had continued to work?

21        A.   I never received anything officially.  I was in camp.  No one

22     came to tell me that I was no longer employed.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You said that these were Muslims and Croats.  Can you

24     read the name under number 11.

25        A.   Jelena Topic.  I said that I did know one Serb.  I just mentioned

Page 21416

 1     the persons I knew, and among them is Zoran Vikalo, who I know.  We were

 2     at university together.  He's a Serb.  He did not want to respond to the

 3     call-up, mobilisation.  He fled to Croatia.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Is Jelena Topic a Muslim?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Can you look at number 19?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Please read it for us?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Dr. Risto Stojanovski.

10        Q.   Is he a Muslim?

11        A.   No, he's probably a Macedonian, Stojanovski.

12        Q.   Number 20, please?

13        A.   Dr. Mario Karacic.  That is probably a Croat.

14        Q.   How about 22?

15        A.   Josipa Grozdanic.

16        Q.   Is she a Muslim?

17        A.   No, she's not, but I just mentioned the people I knew.  I don't

18     know what you're getting at.

19        Q.   You said that this was a list of persons who were dismissed on

20     ethnic grounds; right?

21        A.   I said that most of them were dismissed on ethnic grounds or had

22     not responded to mobilisation or had not wanted to do what the Serbs had

23     ordered them to do.

24        Q.   Can you read number 25, and can you tell us whether that lady is

25     a Muslim?

Page 21417

 1        A.   Jozica Djakovic.  She is not a Muslim.

 2        Q.   Can you read 38?

 3        A.   Slavica Nukic.  She's not a Muslim either.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read number 50?

 5        A.   Of course.  Dusanka Vuketic.  She's not a Muslim.

 6        Q.   She's a Serb, isn't she?

 7        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Oh, you do know full well that Dusanka is a Serb name.

 9        A.   Well, how can I tell?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you read number 60?

13        A.   Marinko Romanic.

14        Q.   He's not a Muslim; right?

15        A.   No, he's not.

16        Q.   Number 70?

17        A.   Jasna Jakovljevic.

18        Q.   Is she Muslim?

19        A.   Jasna can be a Muslim name and a Serb name.  I really don't know.

20        Q.   What about Jakovljevic, her last name?

21        A.   I have no idea.

22        Q.   Are there any Muslims who have the last name Jakovljevic?

23        A.   How can I tell?  I'm no expert for Muslims.

24        Q.   Doctor, Jakovljevic is based on the name Jakov, which is Jacob,

25     Saint Jacob.

Page 21418

 1        A.   Well, how can I say?

 2        Q.   85?

 3        A.   Emilija Jordan.

 4        Q.   Is she a Muslim?

 5        A.   Maybe.  I have no idea.

 6        Q.   Emilija, a Muslim?

 7        A.   Why not?  Why not?  I mean, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Doctor, Doctor, let us be serious.  90?

 9        A.   Vid Djakovic, that's not a Muslim.

10        Q.   98?  Thank you.

11        A.   Dr. Zoran Vikalo.  I mentioned him already.  He's a Serb who fled

12     to Croatia.

13        Q.   What about 103?

14        A.   Ana Juric.  That is not a Muslim name.

15        Q.   What about 106?

16        A.   Danica Bijekic, that's not a Muslim name.

17        Q.   107?

18        A.   Dr. Vojislav Milosev, that's not a Muslim name either.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And 111?

22        A.   Dubravka Zec.  I think that's a Croat name.

23        Q.   How do you come up with that?  A Croat with the last name of Zec?

24     What are you saying?

25        A.   I don't know.  I had a lady who was my friend who was a Croat.

Page 21419

 1     Her last name was Zec.  How can I tell?

 2        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, do you remember that a dismissal is one thing?  It

 3     has to be accompanied by reasoning, whereas a termination of employment

 4     is something else, and the main reason for that is failure to appear for

 5     work for five days?

 6        A.   I studied medicine, not law.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  On page 16 you said that a certain doctor was taken

 8     to Omarska and killed.

 9        A.   Yes.  There were many who were taken to Omarska and killed.

10        Q.   How do you know that?

11        A.   That's quite simple.  When I got out of the camp, I talked to

12     people.  There were some people who came from Omarska, and finally all

13     the bodies have been identified.  It is known that those people were

14     taken to Omarska.  Their bodies were later found, and they were killed.

15     If you want me to, I can give you some names.  You can check.

16        Q.   I'm not interested.  You know that from the words of others?

17        A.   Yes.  I was not there when these people were killed nor would

18     have the Serbs allowed anyone watch them kill.

19        Q.   You went on to say that you worked at the medical centre in

20     Prijedor, and you worked at Trnopolje, and it's referred to here as a

21     clinic, but it was not a clinic, was it?

22        A.   It was a small village clinic or an infirmary.  I was in charge

23     of that infirmary, and at the sawmill in Kozarac I also worked as a

24     substitute doctor.

25        Q.   But your permanent job was at the outpatient clinic in Trnopolje,

Page 21420

 1     at this little infirmary.

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   You mentioned that some Muslims and Croats were hiding from

 4     mobilisation drives.  What about the mobilisation in June 1991 or

 5     September 1991?  Which one were you referring to?

 6        A.   It was after the war in Croatia had already started, and

 7     especially after the Serbs with their army took over Prijedor.

 8        Q.   We'll come to Prijedor.  Now you're talking about JNA

 9     mobilisations linked to the war in Croatia.

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   From which mobilisation were they hiding?

12        A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean which one?  There was only

13     one army, and their military police were -- was looking for people to

14     mobilise them by force and send them to the war in Croatia.  When exactly

15     that was going on I can't say.

16        Q.   In your Brdjanin testimony, 1D04458, page 7 -- sorry, line.  The

17     page is 1792, lines 7 to 25, you said that many Muslims were hiding so

18     that the army could not find them and send them to the front lines.  You

19     say they were hiding.  I want to know which mobilisation drive they were

20     hiding from and for how long.

21        A.   I'm not aware that there are two types of mobilisation.  Whether

22     it was in September or perhaps in early 1991, I don't know.  They were

23     hiding until the conflict in Prijedor broke out.  And it was not only the

24     Muslims and Croats who were hiding.  There were some Serbs hiding as

25     well.  Radenko Djindjic was hiding in a Muslim house.

Page 21421

 1        Q.   So from June or September onwards, they were hiding from the

 2     military police; right?

 3        A.   I couldn't give you the date.

 4        Q.   For how long were they in hiding and where?

 5        A.   I couldn't tell you.  I know that people had a rucksack or a --

 6     ready and packed so that if the military police came they could run to

 7     their neighbour's house.

 8        Q.   What about their jobs at the time?  Did they go to work?  Could

 9     the military police have found them at work?

10        A.   Most of them did continue to go to work.  Some didn't, perhaps.

11     I know that, later on, all the policemen who did not sign the loyalty

12     statement to the Serbs were dismissed.

13        Q.   Is mobilising conscripts or reservists a criminal act?

14        A.   You should ask a lawyer.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know of anyone who was arrested and sent to

16     the front line in Croatia?

17        A.   Dr. Emir Ceric, caught at his own home, given a uniform and sent

18     to the war.

19        Q.   When was that?

20        A.   I don't know.  You should ask him.  Fahrudin Bahtijarevic, sent

21     to dig trenches.  You can ask him.  He's still alive.

22        Q.   Did the war in Croatia end in late 1991?

23        A.   I have no clue.

24        Q.   Were you a member of the SDA or some other party?

25        A.   No, I was not.

Page 21422

 1        Q.   Did you take part in negotiations at any level or were you

 2     regularly kept informed about negotiations between different sides in

 3     Bosnia?

 4        A.   I know only what I heard from others.

 5        Q.   1D04459, page 7820, you said that you don't know if anyone was

 6     sent to the front line by force, and you cannot provide any names, and

 7     now you have given names.

 8        A.   I couldn't remember the names at that time, and then when I

 9     returned home, I gave it some more thought, and I made inquiries.  I

10     cannot memorise all the names.

11        Q.   So you are testifying now after making inquiries following

12     previous testimonies so that you can give those names today.

13        A.   That's not true.  It's 19 years after the fact today, so it's

14     natural I have to refresh my memory.

15        Q.   Do you rely on your own memory?  Can you rely on your memory?

16        A.   Exact dates are easily forgotten, and names too, but things that

17     really happened remain.

18        Q.   You mention roadblocks, and now you corrected yourself saying

19     that there were roadblocks.  And you said also that Muslims also held

20     some check-points of their own.

21        A.   I said I had seen a check-point at the entrance to Kozarac, but I

22     have to add that in my view, there is a difference between a person who

23     sets up a roadblock in front of their own house to defend their own home

24     and their children and the wife from being raped and someone who sets up

25     a check-point with the intention of killing people.

Page 21423

 1        Q.   Was the check-point near Kozarac, on the road between Prijedor

 2     and Banja Luka, 12 kilometres away from Prijedor?

 3        A.   If you mean the one held by Muslims, was looking from that road

 4     at the entrance to Kozarac, not on the road from Prijedor to Banja Luka

 5     but when you approach Kozarac at a distance of about 50 to 100 metres,

 6     and on the intersection itself, a Serb tank was standing.

 7        Q.    Outside Hambarine was the check-point Muslim or Serb?

 8        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you.  I wasn't there.

 9        Q.   In the Stakic case, you spoke about that on page 11798.  You were

10     asked whether there were any check-points at other places near that road

11     near Kozarusa.  You said you didn't know, but you heard that when the

12     Serbs took Prijedor, check-points were set up in Muslim settlements

13     because that was a sign that Serbs were going to take Muslim settlements

14     by force.

15        A.   I don't remember that.  Can you show me?

16        Q.   The page is 11798.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this is the Brdjanin testimony.

19     And just for Mr. Karadzic's benefit, if the transcript starts 77 or 78,

20     then it's the Stakic testimony.  If it starts 117, then it's the Brdjanin

21     testimony.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We're going to upload it now.  Do we

23     have that --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have 1D04458.  1D04458.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No.  This is Stakic transcript.

Page 21424

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I see the translation in our

 2     language?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Unfortunately, we do not have the translation

 4     of the transcript.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will read it and the interpreters

 6     were interpret.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But what is the 65 ter number first?  Yes, we have

 8     it.  Page 11789.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 11798.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Beginning with line 9:

12             "[In English] Whether -- like I was asked whether there were any

13     check-points at other places, outside of this road, perhaps at Kozarusa,

14     I don't know.  But I did hear that when the Serb army took over Prijedor

15     and when they were indicating they were going to take the Muslim

16     settlements by force, then non-Serbs, Muslims and Croats, organised

17     themself [sic] -- themselves and put up guards in order to defend

18     themselves, in order to prevent the Serbs from entering the villages

19     suddenly and committing a massacre."

20             [Interpretation] Did you say this?

21        A.   That's possible.  That's just what I said about Kozarac a moment

22     ago, that people were defending their families and their houses, not

23     organising themselves to attack Serbs or anyone else and kill them.

24        Q.   That's what you heard; right?

25        A.   That's what I heard.

Page 21425

 1        Q.   Could we agree to make a distinction between what you heard and

 2     what you knew for sure or saw yourself?

 3        A.   I can tell you what I saw.  Before I went to Kozarac, two days

 4     before I left I was living in Old Town, and in the evenings, at night,

 5     people stood guard without any weapons, fearing that Serbs may come and

 6     kill people.

 7        Q.   You lived in the Old Town and worked in Trnopolje; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you know why the army took control over Prijedor on the

10     30th of April?

11        A.   That's simple.  Just before that, at a session of the parliament,

12     you yourself said that Muslims would disappear from that area, and they

13     have no chance of defending themselves, and, generally speaking, it was a

14     plan to carry out ethnic cleansing and organise a Greater Serbia.  And

15     then when it was voted in Bosnia and Herzegovina that Bosnia should be

16     independent and sovereign, whereas you lost at the elections in Prijedor

17     because, as far as I know, the SDA won the elections, you decided to take

18     over by force, and you did it using the army.

19        Q.   Are you speaking of my speech of the 15th of October, when I

20     asked that we should refrain from going for independence unless it was

21     agreed?

22        A.   I know of only one speech where you said that Muslims had nothing

23     to defend themselves with.  They will fail to defend themselves and they

24     would disappear from that area.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did I try to talk Muslims into war or not to go to

Page 21426

 1     war?

 2        A.   You were the leader of your party, and I know that in reality,

 3     Chetnik units were restored and re-established.

 4        Q.   What about the speech?  In that speech, was I trying to tell

 5     Muslims that we shouldn't go to war or that we were going to war?

 6        A.   No.  You were telling them what awaits them.

 7        Q.   Now, you mentioned Chetnik units.  Did I set up Chetnik units?

 8        A.   You should know better than anyone else.  You come from a family

 9     that was a Chetnik family during the Second World War, and you know that

10     in that war Chetniks also wanted a Greater Serbia, and back then there

11     were also killing both Serbs and Croats without any ammunition,

12     preferably by knife.

13        Q.   My father was in Montenegro where it was not between Serbs and

14     Croats.  It was fighting for the king.  Why are you bringing my father

15     into this?

16        A.   I'm just saying that you know these things better than I do.

17        Q.   But you said a moment ago that we set up Chetnik units.  Did I

18     set them up?

19        A.   You know that better than I.  How would I know?  It was organised

20     through the SDA.  To what extent you were involved, I don't know.

21        Q.   Well, you were speaking a moment ago as if you knew about these

22     things, but never mind.  Do you know that on the 29th, a dispatcher

23     arrived to Prijedor ordering an attack from the ministry and from the

24     army?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 21427

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see Madam Sutherland.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  Mr. Karadzic might like

 4     to clarify the answer at -- on page 37, line 24, when the interpretation

 5     came through that it was the SDA.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you meant SDS, it was organised through

 7     the SDS.  Is it correct, Dr. Merdzanic?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, the SDS.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

12        Q.   Do you know that the reason -- actually, yes.  At that moment it

13     was the JNA.  Do you know why the JNA took over control over the city,

14     the telegram ordering attack against the JNA, the city, the Serbs?

15        A.   I don't know about that.

16        Q.   Are you denying that the crisis in Hambarine broke out because of

17     the fact that two Serbs were killed and two Croats and two Serbs were

18     wounded?  They were reservists, and it was at a check-point near

19     Hambarine?

20        A.   I don't know exactly what happened there.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that because of shooting at check-points

22     in Kozarac an ultimatum was issued to hand over weapons, not to place

23     badges?

24        A.   I did not attend the negotiations.  I knew that the Serbs wanted

25     to take over Kozarac using their own police badges.  That was an

Page 21428

 1     insignificant matter.  They needed some kind of excuse.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that a curfew was imposed after these

 3     killings so that the situation would calm down and that things in general

 4     would calm down?

 5        A.   That is not true.  A curfew was imposed when the army took over

 6     Prijedor.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You knew Sead Cirkin; right?

 8        A.   I heard of him, and I saw him once.

 9        Q.   So on the 21st or 22nd of May, you went to Kozarac, and you

10     stayed there.  You did not return to Trnopolje; right?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   Then you placed yourself at the disposal of the persons who were

13     preparing to fight; right?

14        A.   That is not right.  I just organised the infirmary.  In case

15     somebody is wounded, we should be able to help.  That had nothing to do

16     with anything else.

17        Q.    You see, in the Brdjanin case, you said -- actually, you confirm

18     that Cirkin was an active-duty officer and that you went to see him and

19     that you saw a group of young men who were carrying weapons; right?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.  That's right.

21        Q.   And then you said that since there was this ultimatum to hand

22     over weapons that was running out on the 22nd of May, would you agree

23     that it was not then but a day or two later?

24        A.   I know that the attack started on the 24th.  I heard that it was

25     the 22nd, that that was the date.  Now, I don't know whether that's

Page 21429

 1     correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I note that -- that this evidence

 5     is also contained in the Stakic case, and I recall Your Honour asking

 6     with the previous witness whether information that Mr. Karadzic keeps

 7     putting to him from prior transcripts other than the transcript that's in

 8     evidence, whether it's also contained in -- in what is now evidence in

 9     this case.  And I also noted in relation to the mobilisation issue with

10     Muslims and Croats going into hiding where he put the Brdjanin

11     transcript, that's also included in the Stakic transcript, so I don't

12     know whether Your Honour wants to give Mr. Karadzic some guidance in

13     relation to that.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

15             I would very much prefer to concentrate on the transcript that

16     has been admitted into evidence in this case, but it's for you,

17     Mr. Karadzic, but bear that in mind.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency, but when I

19     come across contradictions, then I have to refer to his previous

20     statements and testimony.  I believe that you would agree.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think there's any contradiction between the

22     two transcripts, according to the statement by Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  And, of course, I would agree.  Of course,

24     Mr. Karadzic can take the witness to any alleged inconsistencies between

25     the two transcripts, but in -- in this regard, in relation to

Page 21430

 1     Sead Cirkin, transcript page 7723, it says:  "He was an active military

 2     officer, and I wanted to talk to him," blah, blah, blah.  So it's not

 3     inconsistent in my view, but I've said what I've said.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue.  And, Mr. Karadzic,

 5     yourself as well, please put a pause between the answer and your new

 6     question.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So did you say that the ultimatum had to do with -- I mean, I'll

 9     tell you, this is your statement to the OTP, 2000, 1D4457, page 010352.

10     The ultimatum had to do with hoisting the flag and having insignia on

11     uniforms.  That ultimatum was issued by Zupljanin to Kozarac.

12        A.   It's quite possible that I said that, but in principle, no, the

13     policemen in Kozarac were supposed to sign an oath of allegiance to the

14     Serbs, and Kozarac was supposed to be taken over.  That was the

15     precondition.

16        Q.   And the hand-over of weapons and the cease-fire was not a

17     precondition?  The people of Kozarac were not supposed to do that?

18        A.   As far as I know, the people of Kozarac did not attack anyone.

19     They were just at their homes ready to defend themselves.  They did not

20     leave Kozarac.  They did not go out to attack the Serbs.  It's the Serbs

21     who came to Kozarac to attack the people of Kozarac.

22        Q.   What you're saying is on page 7722 in the Stakic case as well.

23     Your amalgamated statement, 7722, from the Stakic case.  Yes, 22174, that

24     is the amalgamated statement.  On page 7722 you also say that this is an

25     ultimatum that has do with the flag and insignia.  Then you say in

Page 21431

 1     response to the question put to you in view of negotiations, you said

 2     that you thought that they were not successful, and you say:  "I heard

 3     that Zupljanin did not come to the negotiations," and so on.  And in

 4     response to the question, "Who did you hear this from?"  You said, "I

 5     heard this from patients and personnel people who worked there," and so

 6     on and so forth.  And then they asked you whether you ever heard on radio

 7     or television that there was this ultimatum and you say that you had

 8     never heard of that.  Is that right?

 9        A.   That is right.

10        Q.   That is to say that you don't know about these negotiations and

11     the essence of the ultimatum.  You don't know anything about that?

12        A.   I never claimed to have been present during these negotiations.

13     I always asserted that I heard all of this, and I can repeat that.  It

14     was stated that Stojan Zupljanin had come and had given -- and gave an

15     ultimatum, and Serbs presented an ultimatum to Kozarac and the police.

16     It wasn't the other way around.  It was the Serbs who said that they

17     would attack Kozarac if they did not surrender.  It's not the other way

18     around as you've been trying to say all along.

19        Q.   On radio and television, did you hear what was actually said,

20     what the ultimatum had to do with?

21        A.   You want me to talk about radio and television here now.  When

22     the war started in Bosnia, the first thing that the Serbs did was take

23     over radio and TV relay towers so that they could carry out their own

24     propaganda.  Radio Prijedor also carried their propaganda.  For example,

25     they accused Sikora Mahmuljin --

Page 21432

 1        Q.   Just a minute --

 2        A.   You wait.  Let me explain this to you.  When they accused them

 3     over the radio that they had mistreated Serb patients, they arrested them

 4     and took them to Omarska and killed them.  On the radio there was this

 5     propaganda that the Serbs did not want to have a war.  They just wanted

 6     to protect all Serbs and Muslims, and at the same time, they went to

 7     people's houses, they searched them, and they beat Muslims.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Not to go into all of this now.  You gathered

 9     equipment and medicine and IV liquids and so on before the conflict in

10     Kozarac; right?

11        A.   It's not the way you put it.  There was a pharmacy in Kozarac

12     that had medicine there anyway, prescription medicines.  A day before

13     that we went to this pharmacy, and we got medicines from that list, and

14     we took these medicines to the infirmary in Kozarac so that we could have

15     them if we needed them.

16        Q.   Who thought of that?  Were you the person who thought of that, or

17     did somebody order you to do that?

18        A.   Nobody ordered me to do that.  I cannot remember now whether I

19     was the one who thought of that.  There were about ten of us there who

20     were discussing this, what to do, how to organise ourselves, because

21     obviously there was an ultimatum there.  The police from Kozarac did not

22     want to surrender, and before that, an ultimatum had been issued to

23     Hambarine, and they had torched Hambarine and razed it to the ground.

24     Then we decided since in the infirmary itself, in Kozarac that is, there

25     wasn't enough medicine, then we remembered that pharmacy, and we brought

Page 21433

 1     whatever was there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement to the OTP of 2000, on the 27th and

 3     28th of August, in e-court that is 1D04457, on page 01035292, you say,

 4     and I'm going to read this out in English -- yes, actually, I can --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We will bring it up.  1D4457.  We have them in both

 6     languages, I take it.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have page 01035292.  That's

 8     probably English.  It must be page 3 in e-court, page 3.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you see this, where it says --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, now we have both pages in

12     Serbian.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you find that bit here where you say that you are the staff

15     of this infirmary in Kozarac, that you went to the pharmacy, that you

16     personally went there, that you took this medical equipment as you were

17     expecting an attack, and that you got IV fluids and so on and so forth?

18     Did you do that as a physician who was someone who had passed a test in

19     war surgery?

20        A.   I did not pass any such test.  I had just received a degree in

21     medicine, and I had not specialised in anything.

22        Q.   However, we all took this exam in war surgery, didn't we?  Within

23     the subject called surgery there is wartime surgery, isn't there?

24        A.   I can't remember any longer.  I remember passing that exam called

25     surgery, but I do not remember war surgery, and it had nothing to do with

Page 21434

 1     the wounds that we were dealing with.

 2        Q.   In English it's the last paragraph.

 3             "[In English] On 23rd of May, 1992, the employees of the clinic,

 4     including myself, went to the pharmacy in Kozarac and loaded up on

 5     medical supplies, anticipating the attack on Kozarac."

 6             [Interpretation] So, Dr. Merdzanic, you did not return to

 7     Trnopolje.  You stayed in Kozarac.  You placed yourself at Cirkin's

 8     disposal, and you became his military medical man.

 9        A.   That is not correct.  That is a pure lie.

10        Q.   Why did you not go back to work?

11        A.   For a simple reason.  One reason is the following:  After the

12     ultimatum, the Serbs no longer allowed anyone to leave Kozarac.  Then

13     there was another reason.  Somebody was supposed to help these poor

14     people and treat them medically if necessary.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this page be admitted?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that has nothing to do with

18     Cirkin or any other military organisation.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   However, you had prepared all these medical supplies for the

21     attack that was about to take place.

22        A.   That's not true.  These medical supplies were in the pharmacy

23     before the war just like in any other civilian pharmacy.  That is not

24     correct.  You are just trying to plant something on me.  Try to be a bit

25     fair.

Page 21435

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you state all of this that is contained in this

 2     last paragraph that starts with the words:  "On the 23rd of May, 1992,

 3     the employees the clinic, including myself," et cetera, et cetera,

 4     "anticipating the attack on Kozarac."

 5        A.   Yes.  But not in the context that you have been trying to --

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this page be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, at transcript page 7724, the

10     witness says:

11             "Kozarac was cut off.  There was no one to obtain extra supplies

12     from.  The only thing we had was a pharmacy in Kozarac itself, so we took

13     the supplies from the pharmacy and brought all the supplies from the

14     pharmacy to the outpatient clinic."

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  But I take it that's the part you can

16     raise in your re-examination.  We will admit these two pages, English

17     page 3 and 4.  I don't know the pages in the B/C/S, but the corresponding

18     page -- pages will be admitted.  Shall we give the number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Exhibit D1922.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Please take a look at what you said here:

22             "[In English] On one occasion, I went to see Sead Cirkin a few

23     days before the attack, probably about the 20th of May or so.  I wanted

24     to talk to him about Cirkin's plan for the GP surgery in the event of

25     attack.  He told me that:  I will do my job, you do yours.  He did not

Page 21436

 1     have much time for me.  He encouraged me to take care of my surgery

 2     myself."

 3             [Interpretation] This is midway in the penultimate paragraph in

 4     English.

 5        A.   That just confirms my version, namely, that I had no direct

 6     connection to Cirkin.  As a civilian doctor, I just tried to help

 7     civilians in Kozarac as much as I could.

 8        Q.   However, you did report to the commander, didn't you?

 9        A.   I wanted to see whether he had a plan of any kind.  That just

10     confirms that there was no co-ordination between the two of us.

11        Q.   However, you say in 1D4461, page 119 -- sorry, 795, that you only

12     heard of Cirkin, whereas in this statement you say clearly that you made

13     contact with him and talked about his plans.  This GP is probably general

14     practice surgery.

15             Where were you telling the truth, when you said you only heard

16     about him or when you said you made contact with him, saw him, and asked

17     him about a plan?

18        A.   It is indeed written somewhere.  I saw Cirkin.  I went to see him

19     to ask him if there was a plan of any kind, but I went to see him as a

20     simple civilian without any other intentions that are trying to ascribe

21     to me here.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Just a second.  Yes.  Is there a mistake in

23     terms of number?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was going say Mr. Karadzic is

25     mischaracterising the witness's evidence.  That is not what is contained

Page 21437

 1     on transcript page 7723.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  7 --

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  7723, lines --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But he referred to something else, page -- 1D4469,

 5     page 11795.  Shall we upload it?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  He said you're making --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] ... I

 8     just read is at the bottom of this page, 1D04461.  It says:  Do you know

 9     who Sead Cirkin is?  Look at line 20 onwards.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But he's --

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, he's putting to the witness that he

12     didn't meet with Sead Cirkin.  It's clear in both the statement and the

13     Stakic transcript that he did meet with him.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Stakic, but in the transcript which was

15     admitted into evidence in this trial, if he said he met with Cirkin,

16     there's no point of putting that on another transcript, but let us -- let

17     us see what he said in 11446 on -- I've lost the number.  11461.  Yes.

18     It says -- why don't you read it so that the witness can answer the

19     question.  I see the last paragraph.

20             MR. KARADZIC:

21        Q.   "Q.  Do you know Sead Cirkin?

22             "A.  I've heard about Sead Cirkin.  He's an active military.  As

23     far as I know, earlier, when the Serbs took Prijedor militarily, he tried

24     to organise a defence of Kozarac in Kozarac.  I do not know where he got

25     it but he managed to put together some weapons and some guys who tried to

Page 21438

 1     organise Kozarac defence."

 2             [Interpretation] So you knew that he was the commander of the

 3     Kozarac defence.

 4        A.   I only said I knew of him and heard of him.  Whether there was

 5     anyone else, I'm not sure, but as far as I know, he was the only one.

 6        Q.   But you say here that you've heard about him, not that you knew

 7     him and met him.

 8        A.   You can twist my words as much as you like and we can debate it

 9     as long as you want, but I'm telling you loud and clear that I went to

10     see him.  I saw him for five minutes and then I returned and had nothing

11     more to do with him.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this page be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Did he say here that he did not meet Mr. Cirkin?

14     But in any event, we will admit this page.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1923, Your Honours.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, you say that -- how long did the fighting for

18     Kozarac last?

19        A.   From the 24th to the 26th.

20        Q.   And do you know what kind of losses the Serb side took?

21        A.   How could I know?  I suppose there were no great losses, because

22     first they used tanks and artillery to shell Kozarac.  The Muslims had

23     nothing to open fire from against that.  They only had regular infantry

24     weapons.  And then when Serbs moved with their infantry, I don't know.  I

25     was not at the front line.  I was in my infirmary.

Page 21439

 1        Q.   In Stakic page 7732, that 65 ter that's been admitted, you said

 2     you believed there were no military installations anywhere near Kozarac.

 3     Do you know that Cirkin's unit actually had mortars?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   Then when the fighting stopped after two days, you say that you

 6     retreated with all the medical equipment and supplies, anything that

 7     remained at the hospital.  You retreated to the edge of Kozarac, into the

 8     woods.

 9        A.   Not after two days.  The very next day, on the 25th, in the

10     morning.  And not with all the medical supplies but only what could fit

11     in one car.

12        Q.   So you went to some unfinished house where the police from

13     Kozarac were already hiding; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you go to the hill or to Kurevo?

16        A.   No, it's the suburb, the outskirts of Kozarac when you go uphill.

17     I believe it's not far from a mosque to the left of the road.  It's still

18     inside Kozarac only at the outskirts.

19        Q.   Earlier today, Mrs. Sutherland interpreted your earlier

20     statements to the effect that you called Serbs on the radio to accept

21     certain wounded people, and they laughed at you, saying, "We'll kill you,

22     Balijas."  Where did you get a radio station?

23        A.   It was not a radio station.  It was a police vehicle, and every

24     police vehicle is fitted with a radio set to a certain frequency.

25        Q.   So the police enabled you to talk to the police, not to your

Page 21440

 1     colleagues, doctors.

 2        A.   No, they were not doctors.  I suppose it was someone in the army

 3     or whoever commanded that attack against Kozarac.  At any rate, via that

 4     same radio, the surrender of Kozarac was agreed.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we passed the time to take a break.

 6     If it is convenient, shall we take a break now?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Before we -- I omitted mentioning to you,

 9     Ms. Sutherland, that with respect to the associate exhibits, the

10     65 ter 20760, which is another drawing depicted by the witness, lacks the

11     English translation.  So until then, pending the English translation,

12     we'll mark it for identification.

13             We'll take a break for 20 minutes and resume at 3.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 2.40 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 3.00 p.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Did you know, Dr. Merdzanic, that certain groups went uphill and

20     some went to the woods in Kurevo and reorganised the battle there?

21        A.   I don't know that.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's just finish this.  You talked from a police

23     vehicle, so you were only able to speak to a policeman, not your

24     colleagues at the hospital.

25        A.   I was certainly not talking to colleagues at the hospital.

Page 21441

 1     Earlier, when the ultimatum expired, the Serbs cut off the telephones so

 2     you couldn't call Kozarac or from Kozarac.

 3        Q.   But then you said the next day an ambulance came, and that the

 4     most seriously injured were taken to the hospital in Prijedor.

 5        A.   No, that's not correct.  I said on the 26th, when the surrender

 6     of Kozarac had been negotiated, conditions were agreed with the police

 7     how to carry out this surrender.  And then in a convoy, the wounded, the

 8     police, and the civilians came out, but the police were then separated

 9     from the rest and they were killed, all of them.

10        Q.   Did you see that, Dr. Merdzanic?

11        A.   I didn't see that.  I was in Kozarac.

12        Q.   Are you saying the Serb policemen killed the Muslim policemen

13     then and there?

14        A.   I don't know if it was the police who killed them.  When they

15     went into Kozarac, it was not policemen.  It was uniformed troops with

16     military tanks.

17        Q.   This first, 1D04456, page 8.  You gave the federal police in

18     Keln [phoen] an interview saying that one of the next days an ambulance

19     arrived and took away the more seriously wounded.

20        A.   No.  I have my exact statement with the description how it

21     happened.  I can repeat it.  The surrender was agreed.  No ambulance

22     arrived.  We had an ambulance, and one of our drivers, the husband of

23     Azra Blazevic, got into that ambulance and carried away the wounded.

24        Q.   Where?

25        A.   As had been agreed.  They drove towards the road from Prijedor to

Page 21442

 1     Banja Luka, and then I believe they took the right-hand to Prijedor.  We

 2     didn't accompany them.  We remained in Kozarac, and we went back to the

 3     ambulance -- to the infirmary.

 4        Q.   At the time the hospital was held by the Serbs; right?

 5        A.   It was in Serb hands always.

 6        Q.   Do you know that, throughout the war, hundreds and thousands of

 7     Muslims and Croats were given treatment in that same hospital?

 8        A.   During the war, hundreds of thousands of Muslims --

 9        Q.   I say hundreds and maybe thousands of Muslims and Croats received

10     dialysis and were given complete medical assistance.

11        A.   I don't know that.  You have to ask in Prijedor.

12        Q.   We have this information.  I'm just asking you as a doctor.  Do

13     you know that?

14        A.   I was in Kozarac.  How would I know that?

15        Q.   Do you know that the civilians from Kozarac, just before the

16     attack and during the attack, were called and came to Prijedor and found

17     shelter in Muslim and Serbian houses while the fighting lasted?

18        A.   I don't know anything about that.  I know that on the 22nd, when

19     the ultimatum expired, they said nobody would be able to get in or out

20     anymore, and by the 24th, two women came to the infirmary.  They were

21     about to give birth, and they said that they could not go to Prijedor,

22     and I had to deliver them, with a nurse -- with a midwife.

23        Q.   1D04461, in the Brdjanin case, page 11801, you said there were

24     problems with civilians who did not know that Kozarac had surrendered.

25        A.   Well, the telephones were not working, and those who did not hear

Page 21443

 1     the announcement that everyone was supposed to get out remained in their

 2     homes.  And, of course, the Serbs who came in, I know of one woman whose

 3     name was Sahuric who was in a basement with other civilians and later

 4     came to Trnopolje looking for somebody who would be able to bury those

 5     civilians, because the Serbs found them in that basement in Kozarac and

 6     killed them.

 7        Q.   Who can confirm that story, Doctor?

 8        A.   That woman, Sahuric, if she's still alive.  They live in Germany.

 9     She has a son.  I gave once the Office of the Prosecutor their names and

10     telephone number.  Whether they had contacted them, I don't know.

11        Q.   In Brdjanin, you also say, on page 11801, lines 18 to 21, that

12     there was a young wounded boy and a wounded Serb who were allowed to go

13     to Prijedor, and then you say you heard the policemen were killed on the

14     spot.  Who told you that?

15        A.   I heard that later in Trnopolje from people who were there, who

16     got out of them [as interpreted] on that same day.

17        Q.   Can you tell us who told you that by name?

18        A.   I can't tell you.  I don't know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So you came to Trnopolje on the 26th of May.  You

20     were ordered to bring all your medical equipment, all you doctors, and

21     there you set up medical protection for the people in Trnopolje.

22        A.   That's not correct.  That's completely wrong.  I don't know

23     where -- how you come up with that.  When we were arrested in Kozarac at

24     the infirmary, three soldiers came in.  Dragan Skrbic was one of them.

25     You can ask him.  He's still alive.  They ordered us first to wait while

Page 21444

 1     they decide what to do with us.  Then they brought a military truck.  We

 2     had to put all our medical supplies and equipment onto that military

 3     truck, and it was all driven away.  I don't know where.  None of it, not

 4     a single item of all that, ever arrived at Trnopolje.

 5        Q.   In your statement to the OTP, dated 27 and 28 August, 2000,

 6     that's 1D04457, page 01035295, you said that medical equipment was loaded

 7     and taken to Trnopolje.

 8        A.   That's not correct.  I never said that.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Let's do it one by one.  Let's upload that

10     statement, 1D4457.  Could you repeat the page?  Here it is.  Thank you.

11     Ending with 5295.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 95, 295, at the very end.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Page 6.  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can barely see it myself.  Can it

15     be zoomed in a bit?  We should have the exact line too.  Just a moment,

16     please.  Eighteen through 21.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.  "Then the

18     truck left, and I never saw it again."  I found it just now.

19             JUDGE KWON:  If you have an indication of line numbers, it should

20     be a transcript instead of statement.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.  We're on the statement

22     now.  I cannot see that particular line in the statement, though.  It is

23     this page, 295.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you help us, Doctor?  Where is that?

Page 21445

 1        A.   It was here in the Bosnian language a moment ago, but now

 2     somebody removed all of it.  Stop.  Stop.  That's it.  Here at the

 3     bottom.  It says:  "Then the truck left --" well, once again what is

 4     this?  Can I see the entire line, please?  Fine.  Just leave it this way,

 5     please.  You don't need to do anything else.  Thank you.

 6             So look at the bottom down here.

 7             "Then the truck left.  I don't know where it went, but I never

 8     saw the supplies again."

 9             I really don't see where you get this from.

10        Q.   Now we're going to look at the entire paragraph.

11        A.   Just go ahead and have a look at the entire paragraph.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So what was it that you took to Trnopolje?

15        A.   As for medical supplies, we didn't take any of that to Trnopolje.

16     As a matter of fact, I didn't even manage to take my rucksack.  Azra

17     managed to take a few things in her rucksack.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But just personal belongings, no

20     military -- or, rather, medical material, no, nothing.

21             JUDGE KWON:  But before that sentence the witness read earlier

22     on, it reads:

23             "We loaded all of the medical supplies we had from the clinic on

24     this truck. "

25             Are you referring to this sentence, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 21446

 1             Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, Your Honour, that's on transcript

 3     page 7740 and 7741 of the Stakic transcript.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Not Trnopolje.  I mean the fact -- how the

 6     witness has answered at lines 18 to 24.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, tell us, you arrived in Trnopolje,

 9     and you say that uniformed persons came to get you.  What kind of

10     uniforms were they wearing?

11        A.   Again, completely erroneous.  You have to have a clear idea as to

12     how all of this happened.

13             We were taken prisoner in Kozarac.  We were taken to the centre

14     of Kozarac.  Nihad Bahonjic was taken out there and we heard later on

15     that he had been killed.  Then they took us in a military jeep in the

16     direction of Prijedor to a tavern on the left-hand side.  Then they

17     ordered us to board a bus that was coming from Prijedor.  There were

18     women and children on that bus with a military escort, and that's the bus

19     that we arrived in at Trnopolje.  When we got off the bus in Trnopolje,

20     there were very many men in uniform.  One of them was Rade Baltic in

21     civilian clothing.

22        Q.   Just a moment, please.  When they came to get you, Predrag Behic,

23     whatever his name is, Dragan Skrbic, and another one, what were they

24     wearing?

25        A.   They wore camouflage military uniforms.  One of them had a red

Page 21447

 1     beret, and all of them had on their upper arm a particular emblem.  I

 2     cannot remember the colour.  I think that Skrbic even wore a blue

 3     camouflage uniform whereas the others had green camouflage uniforms.

 4     Most of the men we saw in Kozarac as we walked to the centre wore

 5     camouflage military uniforms and they all had these armbands.

 6        Q.   So this is a band made of cloth, right?

 7        A.   Yes, some kind of cloth, linen probably.  So that they could be

 8     able to tell them apart.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that there was a radio broadcast saying

10     that all the civilians who did not wish to fight should wear such an

11     armband and that all houses from which there would be no shooting should

12     be marked with a white cloth?

13        A.   I don't understand how you think that the people of Kozarac can

14     hear that.  You cut off electricity, telephones, everything else.  How do

15     you expect people to hear that information or broadcast?  I've never

16     heard of that.  I don't know.

17        Q.   That will do, the fact that you did not hear it.  It's not only

18     Kozarac.  There are other parts of Prijedor as well.

19        A.   Well, yes, there are other parts, and you also shelled them and

20     killed people.

21        Q.   Doctor, let us leave all these general things aside.  You say

22     that some unknown Serb wanted to kill you but that Skrbic forbade him to

23     do that; is that right?

24        A.   No, it's not exactly the way it was.  He was just very nervous,

25     and he was saying they should be all killed.  It's not that Skrbic got

Page 21448

 1     up, and it's not that this man really tried to kill us and that Skrbic

 2     got up and stopped him in that way.  It was a bit different.  Goga, who

 3     was a Serb woman, was with us and on her white coat she had her name

 4     written --

 5        Q.   Let us just see what you say here --

 6        A.   I haven't finished.

 7        Q.   I am not interested in Goga, please.  Did Skrbic stand in front

 8     of him and stop him from doing that, forbid that?

 9        A.   No.  If you allow me, I can explain.

10        Q.   Let us call up a text.  Your statement given to the police in

11     Kiel.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04456, page 9.  1D04456.  Page 9.

13             I'm going to read it out in English now so that the

14     interpretation is better.  I mean, so that they would do a better job

15     than I would.

16             "[In English] The Serb whose name I did not know wanted to kill

17     us all immediately.  However, Skrbic stood in front of us and forbade him

18     to do it.  He might have done this because he knew our veterinarian,

19     Azra Blazevic, and had talked to our Serbian assistant before."

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You're guessing the reason why, but this is what you stated;

22     right?

23        A.   Possibly.  I can't really remember anymore, but I can tell you

24     what my recollection is right now.  This Serb was nervous, and he was

25     saying that we should all be killed, and this Skrbic in some way

Page 21449

 1     prevented that, but not by standing in front of his rifle and protecting

 2     us that way with his own body.  They called this Goga, this Serb, and

 3     talked to her separately, probably asking her what our role was during

 4     the shelling, and then he said that we should be left alone and that he

 5     would decide what would happen to us, and then he left.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You say that Bahonjic was singled out.  Do you know

 7     how many Bahonjics there were in the organisation of this struggle?

 8        A.   I know that Nihad Bahonjic is an ambulance driver and that from

 9     the beginning until the end, from the 24th until the 26th, he was at the

10     infirmary with us and he did not take part in any of the fighting.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And you then say that you heard that he had been

12     singled out and then you heard gunshots but you did not see him killed;

13     right?

14        A.   No, but as far as I know, his bones have been found.

15        Q.   We'll deal with that later.  So you heard this and you did not

16     see it.  All right.  Now, tell me, in Trnopolje -- you were in Trnopolje;

17     right?  And, actually, when was this school built in Trnopolje, the

18     municipal building, the infirmary, the stadium, the club, and also this

19     warehouse for construction material?

20        A.   How could I know?  At any rate, it was there for years.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And then you said that in your opinion that was

22     planned considerably earlier as a camp, because there is a railway --

23     railroad there?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   So when was that, 30 or 40 years before that, with the intention

Page 21450

 1     of having a camp there?

 2        A.   That's not true.  That is not what I said.  I said that

 3     strategically, if you look at Prijedor and the surrounding area, the only

 4     ideal spot for the Serbs where they could operate -- well, in principle,

 5     that camp had been prepared for ethnic cleansing, so when women and

 6     children are brought together there and when they are expelled from their

 7     houses and villages and when a sufficient number of civilians are

 8     gathered there, then a convoy is organised for expelling these civilians

 9     from Serb territory.

10        Q.   You were saying that now, and you said that in the Brdjanin case.

11     You said in the Stakic case, though, that you thought that all of this

12     was decided in haste; right?

13        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think that's the way it was.  It

14     depends on the context.

15        Q.   You said that in Stakic, 65 ter 22147, on page 7827, but you said

16     it could have been this way and it could have been that way; right?

17        A.   I was not involved in the decision-making.  Ask someone who was

18     involved in the decision-making as to where the camp would be.

19        Q.   You said that your impression was that both was plausible, that

20     it was done in haste and that it could have been done earlier.

21        A.   I said that that was my impression.  You have to ask whoever had

22     planned that.  However, if you look at where Trnopolje is and what

23     Trnopolje was used for, there is not a better spot in that area.

24        Q.   Further on, you say that before the war this spot had been fenced

25     off; right?

Page 21451

 1        A.   Well, this was a small fence, a school fence, and also for the

 2     infirmary, the construction material warehouse.  In principle, there was

 3     nothing new that was built there.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at a

 5     video-clip.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you know this person?

 8        A.   The quality of the image is very poor.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 40504.  That's the 65 ter number.

10     And then 24:00.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [No interpretation]

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Is this the fence, the low fence that you mentioned?

15        A.   That is a low fence.  That was Trnopolje.

16        Q.   And this fence is between what?

17        A.   You have to play the video further.  That fence had to be between

18     the house and the construction equipment store facing the football

19     stadium, because that is the only fence that was that low -- that low.

20        Q.   I see.  And that is where this warehouse with the construction

21     material was fenced off?

22        A.   No, that's not right.  That's a different fence, about 2 or

23     2.5 metres high.

24        Q.   And what was this fence used for?

25        A.   That fence had been prepared for the inmates from Keraterm.  It

Page 21452

 1     was built just before the journalists arrived.

 2        Q.   How high is this fence?

 3        A.   On that side it was perhaps 1.20 metres.  I didn't measure it.  I

 4     don't know.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we play this on.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER: [No interpretation]

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you stop at this point, please?

 9     This is not that fence.  This is somewhere near the school.  This is the

10     other fence, the normal fence that was filmed later on when the Serb

11     journalists came.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  Actually, that was the fence surrounding the school;

14     right?

15        A.   I think so.  On the Penny Marshall footage that can be seen.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go on.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter:  That means practically

19     that the fence does not separate you from the village.

20             "Prisoner:  No, no, they let us go out.  We leave our personal

21     identity card here and go up there.

22             "Prisoner:  But there's no one in the village.  We just go into

23     the gardens and get the vegetables.

24             "Reporter:  That means you are free to take a hoe and dig up

25     something in the garden, right?

Page 21453

 1             "Prisoner:  Yes, we take a hoe, go up there, dig up potatoes,

 2     tomatoes.  We cook here for ourselves.

 3             "Second prisoner:  It's all running out.

 4             "Prisoner:  A few more days and there won't be anything up there

 5     left either."

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So you spoke about that.  I'll tell you where now.  You told

 8     about that in your interview from 2000, 1D04457, on page 296.  It ends

 9     with number 296.  You said it was the normal fence surrounding the

10     schoolhouse from back before the war.  There was one fence around the

11     depot of construction materials.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Another fence was around the school.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Was there a third fence?

16        A.   Yes.  Outside the infirmary, a low fence next to the road.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   And the fence that was put up before the journalists arrived.

19        Q.   Before the arrival of the reporters a fence was put up for the

20     journalists?

21        A.   No.  It was for the inmates of Keraterm.

22        Q.   And there was a section without any fence whatsoever.

23        A.   The section closer to the football pitch.  There was no fence

24     there.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D4851.

Page 21454

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I believe this footage -- this aerial photograph is familiar to

 3     you.

 4             Can you see the football pitch here to the left?

 5        A.   Yes, we can see the football pitch.

 6        Q.   There was no fence on that side.  And what is the rest?  Can you

 7     please explain?

 8        A.   In the upper part we see the schoolhouse.  Then you see the

 9     infirmary.  Then this big hall, and close to the intersection is the shop

10     selling construction material.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is not part of an exhibit

13     already, I would like to tender it.

14             May I just ask you to mark --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  But before that are you minded to

16     tender the previous video-clip we saw?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Certainly.

18             JUDGE KWON:  That will be first admitted.

19             Ms. Sutherland, do you have any observation to that video-clip?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  Was that a question to

21     me?

22             JUDGE KWON:  No.  I asked Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the video is -- was an associated

24     exhibit with Mr. Vulliamy, but I don't know about that particular portion

25     that was -- that was played, whether that excerpt came in as an

Page 21455

 1     associated exhibit.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you confirm it tomorrow?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  Then we'll wait.

 5             Then in relation to this document, but please tell us,

 6     Mr. Karadzic, first where this -- this document is from, whose marking

 7     this is.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe this witness marked it in

 9     another trial, Brdjanin or Stakic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember marking anything

11     on an aerial photograph.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's the best we could find.  We

13     found it at the Tribunal.  Could we ask the --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you help us?  At the end of this document it

15     says P1770.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That was exhibit in the Stanisic/Zupljanin

17     trial, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And do you know whose marking this is?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm not sure, Your Honour.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we ask the usher to help

21     Dr. Merdzanic to make his own markings.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour, I'm sorry.  It was marked by

23     this witness in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case.

24             JUDGE KWON:  When was it?  Do you remember when it was, the date

25     of his testimony?

Page 21456

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The 9th of December, 2010.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Last year.

 3             Doctor, do you remember now, having been assisted by the

 4     Prosecutor?  Do you confirm that's your marking?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly.  It's not a problem.

 6     This is Trnopolje for sure, and I can mark everything I recognise and I

 7     know here.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  My question was whether you can recognise your

 9     markings.  These markings were done by you -- by you yourself.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly.  I don't remember.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's -- we'll -- our usher will assist

12     you to add some further markings, probably black -- in black this time.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In another colour, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Doctor, by the school building, please put number 1.  You may do

16     it even outside the red line.  Could you mark the side closer to the

17     stadium with 2.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And that's the side where there was no fence; right?

20        A.   There was no fence on that side.  Right.

21        Q.   Now, inside, can you identify the infirmary as 3?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And the warehouse of construction material with 4.  There was a

24     fence around it; right?

25        A.   Yes.  [Marks].

Page 21457

 1        Q.   Is there another building you think needs marking?

 2        A.   I'll put 5 to mark this cultural hall.

 3        Q.   Yes, the cultural hall.

 4        A.   There was a library in the community hall.  At one point between

 5     the warehouse and -- of construction material and that community hall a

 6     fence was put up.

 7        Q.   Could you put the date at the bottom.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1924, Your Honours.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   About the arrival at Trnopolje, you said there was no

15     registration of newly arrived.

16        A.   Not that I noticed.

17        Q.   Still, you did give Slavko Puhalic a certain list, and you were

18     told that it was necessary in case somebody went missing.

19        A.   Only of those who were in the infirmary.  Those who were going to

20     the school and the community hall were not listed that I could see.

21        Q.   You spoke about people being able to go out, and we heard on this

22     footage that people went out into the village to find food and came back.

23        A.   Not exactly.  There were several periods during the existence of

24     Trnopolje, and during various periods, food supplies were organised in a

25     different way.  There was one stage when the surrounding population had

Page 21458

 1     been expelled and sent away in a convoy.

 2        Q.   We'll come to that.  We heard this man on the video saying that

 3     nobody beat him, that he had not been involved in combat, that he had

 4     come there to find shelter, and that they were able to go out.  He said,

 5     "We could take a hoe, go into the gardens, dig out vegetables," et cetera.

 6        A.   Play the video where they interviewed me, I didn’t say anything

 7     either.  They went into the infirmary, too.  It was a Serbian television

 8     crew.  Do you think anybody dared say anything openly?

 9        Q.   Well, let's look at it again.  The interpreters have the text.

10     We can continue where we stopped.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you play, please.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Prisoner:  They let us go out into

14     the village.  We go there alone.

15             "Reporter:  That means you're free to take a hoe and dig up

16     something in the gardens; right?

17             "Prisoner:  Yes.  We take a hoe, go up there, dig up potatoes,

18     tomatoes.  We cook here for ourselves.

19             "Second prisoner:  It's all running out, however.

20             "Reporter:  When did you come here?

21             "Prisoner:  On the 27th of May.

22             "Reporter:  And why did you come?

23             "Prisoner:  I came here when the fighting started where I lived.

24     I had to come.  Where would I go on the other side?

25             "Reporter:  Did you participate in combat?

Page 21459

 1             "Prisoner:  No.

 2             "Reporter:  So practically you were looking for protection,

 3     right?  For safety?

 4             "Prisoner:  Yes.

 5             "Reporter:  And what is it like here?

 6             "Prisoner:  Well, you can see for yourself it's okay.  It's not

 7     so bad.

 8             "Reporter:  Were there any problems, any mistreatment?

 9             "Prisoner:  No.

10             "Reporter:  What about the others, anyone else here, because I

11     saw here that the -- in the camp we visited a little while ago, people

12     from another collection centre had arrived, and did this collection

13     centre function like some kind of camp where people were mistreated?

14             "Prisoner:  Well, this is a collection centre.  Fuck it.  It

15     cannot be anything other than a collection centre.  All those who didn't

16     fight came here.  What do I have to fight for?

17             "Reporter:  And what now?

18             "Prisoner:  Only those who were being shelled had to come here.

19             "Reporter:  And what do you expect now?  If only those big

20     guys --"

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not finish.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can just add it to the previous

23     footage admitted.  We don't have to give it a separate exhibit number.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you hear what he said?  There was fighting in surrounding

Page 21460

 1     villages.  There was shooting.  They came here.  They were looking for

 2     food.  Did you hear anyone asking him --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Karadzic has to slow down.  We cannot catch

 4     up with the --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mr. Merdzanic.  We have to start it over

 6     again.  Because of the overlap the interpreters were not able to catch up

 7     with you.

 8             Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

10        Q.   Dr. Merdzanic, did this man say that there was shooting or

11     shelling there, that he was not involved in combat, that he came there,

12     and they are making do to find food, going out into surrounding villages?

13        A.   I was in that village from beginning to end --

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to answer now and please

16     don't interrupt me.  I was in that camp from beginning to end, and I know

17     exactly in what way people came and how things were done in various

18     periods.  There were various distinct periods in Trnopolje, and in

19     different periods the inmates received different treatment.

20             Speaking of most of the inmates, and I never said that all of

21     them were beaten or killed, but many were beaten and some were even

22     killed in Trnopolje.

23        Q.   With all due respect, it's a different subject.  We'll come to

24     it.  I want to finish with this subject.

25        A.   I'm trying to explain to you that what this young man is saying

Page 21461

 1     to the Serbian television crew -- you either have to say what he is

 2     saying or you say nothing.  Just find this man and bring him here.  Let's

 3     see what he's going to say now.

 4        Q.   Do you see that he says that the guards were trying to help the

 5     Muslims and the Serbs from the surrounding villages also came and tried

 6     to help with what they had?

 7        A.   On that subject, I just said that there were certain Serbs who

 8     tried to be helpful to us.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I don't know -- I

10     know this has been exhibited already, and my assistants will provide the

11     exact minutes of -- of this segment.  It belongs with the others.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The additional part that we just saw will be

13     added to the previous exhibit -- Exhibit D1924.

14             Just a second.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE KWON:  I was mistaken.  The OTP will confirm later on

17     whether this is a part that we already admitted.  Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that is the right

19     segment.  I don't think this segment has been exhibited, not this part.

20             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case with -- this part will be added

21     to the existing video-clip.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So in Brdjanin, 1D04458, page 11813, lines 4 through 7, you said

Page 21462

 1     that the guards tried to be helpful and did what they could, at least

 2     some of them, but there were also Serbs who visited and tried to help;

 3     right?

 4        A.   I never said Serbs were all bad or all Serbs were bad.  I said,

 5     indeed, that there were certain Serbs who visited and tried to help us as

 6     much as they could.  I also said there was one period, but it was only a

 7     short period, where inmates were allowed under escort to go to

 8     surrounding farms and bring potatoes and whatever food they found in

 9     empty houses because there was no other food available.

10        Q.   You spoke about intermittent arrivals from Keraterm and Omarska.

11     How often did groups come, and how large were there -- they?

12        A.   From Keraterm there was only one group.  And from Omarska, a

13     group of women came with minor children, and as far as I know, after the

14     journalists left, a larger group came that night after the journalists

15     left.

16        Q.   That means there was one group from Keraterm and how many from

17     Omarska?

18        A.   Two groups.  One was women and underage children, and the other

19     time those from Omarska.

20        Q.   Do you know that 59 were -- per cent were released from Omarska

21     and 41 per cent were sent to Manjaca?  Just tell me if you know that or

22     not.

23        A.   As far as I know, they came from Trnopolje -- they came to

24     Trnopolje, and most of them were released from Trnopolje, because, for

25     instance, my wife's father, who with his own wife and her sister stayed

Page 21463

 1     at his home later, they were all found there and killed.

 2        Q.   Do you know -- did you say it was agreed that local residents

 3     could visit and bring food to the camps?

 4        A.   Yes.  That was in the early days, when the population in the

 5     surrounding villages were still there in their homes, before they were

 6     driven out of their homes and expelled in convoys.

 7        Q.   Did you see that?

 8        A.   Of course I saw that.

 9        Q.   You were in Elezi when that happened?

10        A.   No, no.  This was right by Trnopolje.  People were brought to

11     Trnopolje.  Not only from Elezi but also from other areas.  The ethnic

12     cleansing of Prijedor was complete.  Most of it happened through

13     Trnopolje, not all of it though.  One convoy from Sanski Most, as a

14     matter of fact, was brought to Trnopolje.  They were boarded onto a

15     train.  They took a man and a woman out --

16        Q.   Doctor, I don't have time for your very general statements, and I

17     have no time to make them more specific.  You did complain about

18     Zoran Zigic, didn't you?

19        A.   Zoran Zigic?  I didn't complain.  I just gave a statement saying

20     that on one occasion, Zoran Zigic came to Trnopolje.  After they brought

21     the inmates from Keraterm, he lined them up within that fence that had

22     been built for them.  He brought out one of them named Kum and told him

23     to kneel down and then he beat him.

24        Q.   Do you know that several criminal reports were filed against him?

25        A.   I don't know about that, but I know that the commander of the

Page 21464

 1     guards and the commander of the company were all there.  Everybody was

 2     watching.  It was out in the open.  No one reacted.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear

 4     Mr. Karadzic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, interpreters didn't hear your question.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I asked whether Dr. Merdzanic knew that he had been a criminal

 8     and that criminal reports had been filed against him.

 9        A.   I've already responded that I don't know.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Probably what the interpreters missed was the

11     exhibit number, the document number that we are -- in front of us and

12     that we are seeing now, yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's a translation too.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is one criminal report dated the 2nd of July, because

16     some -- actually, he had asked some Muslims for money, and obviously he

17     was involved in a trade that was based on their fear.

18        A.   It wasn't only him.  When you expel the population from one

19     village, then you start looting in the houses.  When the houses are

20     looted, it is only then that they are destroyed and razed to the ground.

21     It is not that the Serbs move into these houses.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see who it was that filed this criminal

23     report.  Simo Drljaca filed this criminal report; right?  The chief of

24     the station.

25        A.   I don't know who filed it.

Page 21465

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  This is, I take it, 1D4465.  This will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1925, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4467.  Can we have a look at that

 6     now.  1D4467.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Please take a look at the version in our language.  The

 9     translation is coming.

10             Do you agree that the same chief of the police station is asking

11     for Zoran Zigic to be taken to prison according to a decision such and

12     such number and so on?

13        A.   That is just a piece of paper saying that.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1926, Your Honours.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You said that you never saw women being questioned; right?

20        A.   That's what I said in relation to Trnopolje.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Also, you were never beaten; right?

22        A.   I was not beaten.  I just went and gave a statement on one

23     occasion.

24        Q.   Apart from that one statement, you were not interrogated.

25        A.   I was not.

Page 21466

 1        Q.   Did you tell them then about all the things that you did in

 2     Kozarac during the crisis?

 3        A.   I always said the same thing that I've been saying now.  There

 4     was this Serb woman, Goga.  She made a statement too.  Nothing else can

 5     be said except for what had truly happened.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Your estimate was that about 10 per cent of these

 7     people who were there were taken out for questioning and were beaten.

 8        A.   Perhaps I should have a look at this.  I don't know what the

 9     context was possibly.  I have to see the statement.

10        Q.   1D4457, your interview with the OTP.  0103502 [as interpreted]

11     and 03.  Those are the pages.

12        A.   I said something like that, but I don't know whether that's the

13     context.  I'd have to read it.

14        Q.   On the same page, 04 --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, what is this?  318?  And

16     we need 302 and 303.  I don't know how this happened.  5302 and 03.

17     Actually the numbers are the other way around.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not page 14 -- 14 in English, or 13.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thirteen, possibly, 13.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You mentioned Zigic here, and you see that they were prosecuting

22     him.  And now let us see where you mentioned this percentage.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's between pages 302 and 303.

24     Can we have the next page, then.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I see the time.  We'll continue

Page 21467

 1     tomorrow morning.  We have to rise.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, may I ask for a bit

 3     more time, because this is a man who was in Trnopolje, and unfortunately,

 4     there are quite a few general statements here, so I have to make them

 5     more specific.  I have to get to the things that he does know

 6     specifically.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  You still have half an hour, which in the opinion

 9     the Chamber is sufficient for you to conclude.  But we will see tomorrow.

10             We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning, but in the meantime,

11     Dr. Merdzanic, as you are aware of this well, you are not supposed to

12     discuss with anybody else about your testimony.  Do you understand that,

13     sir?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Tomorrow morning, 9.00.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day

18                           of November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.