Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21771

 1                           Wednesday, 23 November 2011

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Page 21772











11  Pages 21772-21844 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 21845

 1                           [Open session]

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  I hope so.  I was just going to say:  When

 3     convenient for Your Honours, we can respond orally to the accused's

 4     motion to modify the protective measures for KDZ039.  He will be starting

 5     tomorrow, so we can respond orally if Your Honours like.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I remember having been advised by the interpreters

 7     not to speak while there's the noise.

 8             Yes, Mr. -- yes, proceed, Mr. Nicholls.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just very quickly:  First of all, there's an error

10     in the motion, which I pointed out to my friend during the break.  The

11     witness only has pseudonym, not pseudonym, image, voice distortion.  So

12     we're only talking about a pseudonym.  And I asked if that would prompt

13     them to withdraw their motion and it does not.  First of all, the

14     motion's very untimely.  No reason for it to be -- have been filed at

15     this very late date, 22nd November.  I met the witness on Monday and,

16     without having a big conversation with him, asked him if he requested --

17     if he wished for the protective measures to remain in place, and he said

18     that he did.  And just for the basic law, the motion fails to identify

19     any exceptional circumstances under Rule 75, either exigent circumstances

20     or identifying any miscarriage of justice, that would warrant the

21     amendment of these -- the change of the protective measures without the

22     witness's consent.  And we've looked at it, and the media article cited,

23     my understanding is pre-date, the granting of the protective measures in

24     the prior case, the first case.  So it's not a change in circumstance.

25     And I think just the pseudonym is reasonable for this witness, and there

Page 21846

 1     hasn't been an adequate showing to amend them.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

 4             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  Just to make a

 6     brief reply.  First of all, I don't really understand what protection is

 7     offered by a witness who comes here with no image distortion and no

 8     facial distortion and yet requires a pseudonym.  And perhaps the best way

 9     to resolve this is to ask the witness why he feels he needs a pseudonym,

10     when the public can see who he is, hear his whole story, and hear his

11     voice.  And if there's a good reason for it, okay.  But this witness has

12     testified -- has made known that he's been a witness in earlier

13     proceedings in this Tribunal, and I don't think that this is the kind of

14     thing that protective measures are designed to protect.  So it's -- in

15     our view, it's an unnecessary measure.  But if there's some reason why

16     the witness has that his name can't be revealed, then we're opened to

17     revision of that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Did he have the identical protective measure in the

19     previous proceedings?  I mean only the pseudonym.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.  And that was granted on the

21     basis of what was considered to be necessary at that time.  And other

22     than not liking it, there's been no showing of change of circumstances.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24                           WITNESS:  EWAN BROWN [Resumed]

25             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies, Mr. Brown, for your inconvenience.

Page 21847

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's no inconvenience, Your Honour,

 2     at all.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And it's evident -- it has become evident that we

 4     cannot conclude your evidence today and you have to stay overnight again.

 5             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.

 8        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

 9        Q.   I would like to know whether you used a document or a paragraph

10     from a document, and I'm not interested in the reasons why.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 6732.

12     It may already be a D exhibit.  Actually, it's D1921.  It has to do with

13     the treatment of civilians in the municipality of Novi Grad.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   While we're waiting for the document, I don't know if I asked you

16     if you knew that these Muslim civilians were offered transport by train

17     which they refused.  They spent 17 days at home, and only on the second

18     occasion they accepted to be transported to Doboj.  Were you aware of

19     that?

20             The question is unrelated to the document.  Did you know that

21     they were not forced?  They initially were offered transport which they

22     refused, and then 17 days later another offer was made which they

23     accepted.  Did you know that?

24        A.   I'm unaware of whatever negotiations may have gone on in relation

25     to -- to this.  I can only go by the documentation that's there.  I

Page 21848

 1     believe this was a document that was referenced in my report.  I would

 2     doubt your characteristic that these individuals were somehow offered

 3     transportation on -- on cattle trucks as some kind of good thing.  It

 4     seems pretty quickly after Novi -- or the Muslim areas in Novi were

 5     subject to military operations a large number of those people were

 6     leaving that municipality.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Recently we had a Muslim witness from the group who

 8     confirmed what I just told you.  In any case, have a look at this.  Did

 9     you refer to the paragraph beginning with "As of 1400 hours, and returns

10     weapons."  It is the sixth or seventh row.  Sorry, "1500 hours.  However,

11     these activities," et cetera.  Did you refer to that paragraph?

12        A.   I'm not sure if I referred specifically to that paragraph.  I --

13     I -- it's a large document, and I think the reason I was referring to it

14     was the story that seemed to be -- to be told from there, that there was

15     a dead-line set and that eventually a large number of people were taken

16     from their area of homes and -- and moved out of the municipality.  I

17     can't remember if I specifically reference that line or that section.

18        Q.   Could we see the bottom of the page in both versions.  Can you

19     see that the population was taken to the stadium and that the population

20     was from Blagaj Japra?  It all lasted between the 2nd June until the

21     5th of June, which is something that is already on the next side.

22     Searches and the fighting continued throughout that period, and following

23     it the population was returned.  Did you take note of that and include it

24     in your report?

25        A.   Well, they may have returned for a short space of time, but I

Page 21849

 1     don't think it lasted very long, Mr. Karadzic.

 2        Q.   Mr. Brown, I'm interested only in why or whether you specified

 3     reasons why the TO, without consulting the public security sector, did

 4     so.  It says here the 2nd of June, which is still on the first page in

 5     the Serbian, as well as in the English version.

 6             Do you know what the reasons were for the TO to execute that

 7     operation?  There was an order to rein in uncontrolled groups and units

 8     which retaliated against the population and destroyed property.

 9             Now we can go to the next page in English.

10             Can you see these reasons specified in the second paragraph, and

11     did you cite them?

12        A.   I wonder if I can just take a second to read the first and second

13     pages again.

14             Yes.  The document seems to indicate, at least here, that a large

15     number were taken, accorded information that the SJB had, that they were

16     taken initially to the stadium.  They were released about a number of

17     days later.  A significantly large number of people were moved out of the

18     municipality on those trains that we talked about earlier.

19        Q.   That is incorrect, Mr. Brown.  They were released to go home

20     then, and the train transport occurred at another time.  You see here

21     that 120 of them voluntarily joined the army and only 18 were retained by

22     the military police, because there were reasons to suspect they were

23     involved in certain activities.  Did you mention that?

24        A.   I would have to look at my report.  I'm not sure necessarily I

25     did.  This is what the document does say, but my point was that

Page 21850

 1     irrespective of whether a number of them were released, this group of

 2     300 initially, were released back to their homes, within a few days later

 3     a significantly large number, in the thousands, were moved out of the

 4     municipality.  And I believe many, at least even according to this

 5     document, although 700 returned, a large number of them didn't return.

 6     And then there are references later in the document about the

 7     deregistration process which involved thousands more.

 8        Q.   Sir, let's stay with this.  Disbanded on the 5th of June by most

 9     of the citizens being released, free to go home.  Does it say they were

10     free to go home?

11        A.   It says most of the citizens being allowed home.  Whether they

12     went home or whether they said home for a week and ended up on the trains

13     a week later, I don't know.  This is what the document says, that most

14     were allowed home.  I'm not sure that they remained home for very long,

15     however.

16        Q.   Sir, it's up to the Prosecutor to deal with it.  I'm simply

17     trying to ascertain whether you used this document appropriately, whether

18     you approached it objectively and made use of it in the correct way.

19        A.   I believe I did, Mr. Karadzic.

20        Q.   Well, you see, you didn't.  Look page 4.  It is the 24th or the

21     25th of May, I think that's how we can find it.  The 24th of May.  It

22     says, During the stay of those Muslim citizens in Blagaj, they were

23     provided health care and food supply.  Some food was also received by

24     representatives of the Crisis Staff who said there were -- there was

25     enough food for everyone.

Page 21851

 1             Further below, it mentions the period when uncontrolled

 2     activities took place in the area of Bosanski Novi and the valley of

 3     Japra.  The functioning of the public security station in the area was

 4     partially or completely made impossible at times.  Based on that, the

 5     public security station was unable to register the true nature of events.

 6             Did you know that there were killings there of policemen?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of there being killings of policemen, whether it's

 8     referenced in this document or elsewhere.

 9        Q.   Mr. Brown, it was mentioned that the crisis occurred after a

10     funeral of a policeman.

11        A.   I don't believe the operations in Novi were somehow sparked off

12     or followed on from the killing of a policeman or, I think, even might

13     make mention of a soldier on page 1.  I think this document, at the

14     beginning, highlights that operations were conducted in Bosanski Novi as

15     a result of instructions from a higher level, including Bogdan Subotic's

16     instruction of April, and ARK Crisis Staff decisions on disarmament, that

17     an operation took place in Bosanski Novi.  It may well have been that

18     during that there had been retaliatory action, but a large number of

19     people ended up being moved out of that municipality after these

20     operations.  That's my point with Novi.  It may well have been that some

21     people were initially taken to the -- the sports centre, it may well have

22     been initially that some of them were allowed to return to their homes,

23     but I do not believe, from this document and also the pattern that seemed

24     to occur in other municipalities, that those people were being moved out

25     because of large-scale conflict, protracted large-scale conflict, and

Page 21852

 1     were being moved out for their own safety at all.  I think the document

 2     shows that there was a plan of disarmament, that that plan was put into

 3     operation in this case with a significant involvement of the TO, and that

 4     the end product was that a large number of people of Muslim ethnicity

 5     highlighted in this document left the municipality quite soon after that.

 6     And I don't believe they came back, at least not in the period that I

 7     looked at.

 8        Q.   I don't know if I asked you this:  Did you know they were offered

 9     to go to Banja Luka, which was another Serbian town just like Prijedor?

10     They refused both and put up an ultimatum wanting to go further afield to

11     Europe.  Did you take note of that?

12        A.   I was not aware of that, Mr. Karadzic.  And it strikes me as

13     being somewhat unusual that individuals were being offered to go anywhere

14     other than their homes unless there was a desire or a keen desire to see

15     these people leave.  In Bosanski Novi, there didn't -- operations were

16     again one of those municipalities where the operations themselves took --

17     took place quite quickly.  They were over quite quickly.  This wasn't a

18     long protracted conflict in that municipality in which armed groups were

19     fighting, you know, using significant amounts of weaponry.  Operations

20     were finished quite quickly.  And it seems to me unusual that you're

21     indicating that people should be offered to go anywhere other than their

22     homes unless there was a desire to see those individuals leave.  And

23     that, along with other municipalities at the ARK at this time, I would

24     argue that there was a desire to see these individuals leave and that in

25     controlling the territory that was deemed to be part of the

Page 21853

 1     Republika Srpska, there was not a desire to see a large number of

 2     individuals who were seen deemed to be against that state in there.  I

 3     don't know why you would offer so many thousands of people to move to

 4     Banja Luka or to other parts of Europe when actually the conflict was

 5     over quite quickly.  Unless there was a desire to see that those people

 6     were not going to remain in that municipality.

 7        Q.   And if I were to tell you, Mr. Brown, that guerrilla groups and

 8     leftover groups in the Sana valley, to a lesser extent Kljuc, but anyway,

 9     by the Sana River, Bosanski Novi, Japra, Sanski Most, that these groups

10     existed all the way up until the end of 1994, what do you say to that?

11     Just tell us whether you knew that or not.

12        A.   There are references in the 1st Krajina Corps documents after the

13     take-over of municipalities certainly of small groups.  Whether they had

14     fled from the areas of conflict, how they were armed, is not always

15     clear.  Those groups may well have been there.  They don't seem to have

16     significantly curtailed the operations of the 1st Krajina Corps, nor were

17     they launching large attacks on units of the 1st Krajina Corps inside

18     those municipalities after they were taken.  Yes, the 1st Krajina Corps

19     did make reference to cleansing operations, continuing to secure

20     territory in those municipalities after the attacks, but I don't see them

21     in any significant numbers nor them curtailing the 1st Krajina Corps.

22     And so I did not see those attacks in -- in Prijedor and Sanski Most and

23     Novi lasting very long, and yet a large number of people left.  This is

24     according to their own documents.

25        Q.   Mr. Brown, I'm telling you that until the end of 1994 there were

Page 21854

 1     people living in dugouts, in the mountains and forests, killing farmers

 2     in their fields, and policemen and soldiers in ambushes.  It was far away

 3     from the front lines, deep behind the backs of the 1st Krajina Corps.  Do

 4     you accept that or not?  Yes or no?  I claim it is true.  We have

 5     documents to support that.  And we could already hear such evidence in

 6     this courtroom.  But do you deny that?

 7        A.   That may well have been the case, Mr. Karadzic, but what I'm

 8     saying is you -- you cannot link those types of small-level operations

 9     which may have occurred to somehow the mass removal of individuals from

10     municipalities under the guise that they were being protected in that

11     sort of combat situation.  The operations that I saw after the territory

12     such as Prijedor, Sanski Most, Novi, Kljuc, after control was taken,

13     there was -- there may well have been those small incidents of ambushes

14     or groups hiding in woods who'd fled, but that somehow seems different

15     and separate to -- and -- and wasn't the type of combat that would seem,

16     to me at least, to have resulted in large -- thousands of individuals

17     somehow fleeing that type of combat.  The operations that took place

18     after those municipalities occurred, if at all, were maybe of that

19     nature, small units, small bands, people hiding out.  And I don't see a

20     relationship between that type of activity and what the Krajina Corps may

21     have done against those individuals and the large number of people who

22     had left that municipality at all.

23        Q.   Mr. Brown, I'm asking you this:  Do you accept that revenge by

24     unfortunate individuals could have had an impact on the general

25     population?  Do you have any evidence of the 1st Krajina Corps doing

Page 21855

 1     anything to those people?  Let's look at page 7, security assessment.

 2     You also did not take that into account.  The SDS put forth its

 3     positions.  Do you accept that there were cases of revenge and that

 4     uncontrolled elements in the society represented a danger to the same

 5     society rather than that danger being posed by the 1st Krajina Corps?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 7 in the Serbian version,

 7     please.  Chapter 4 in the English.  Can we locate that?

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Have you read this, and did you take it into account?  Doesn't it

10     become clear that no one here is afraid of the 1st Krajina Corps but that

11     people were afraid of individuals who were out of control, who used the

12     guerrilla attacks as an excuse for personal vendetta?

13        A.   Which part of the document are you referring to, Mr. Karadzic, on

14     this -- on this page?

15        Q.   Let's say item 1.  And then item 1.  We can do without the

16     Serbian version.  Then look at the second part of item 2.  Disarmament by

17     forceful means of all individuals, groups, and paramilitary formations in

18     olive drab and camouflage fatigues.  Do you see here what the position

19     was of the civilian authorities?  Did you point that out in your report?

20        A.   I'm not sure I referenced specifically this chapter.  I did make

21     mention in the report to the issue of paramilitaries.  There are some

22     references in the Krajina Corps documents to uncontrolled elements, and

23     there are references to revenge attacks, a number of references to that.

24     But I don't see --

25        Q.   Please leave your buts for the Prosecution.  They will have their

Page 21856

 1     redirect.  You did know about this, but did you take it into account?

 2     Item 5, for example.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No.  As I indicated many times to you, Mr. Karadzic,

 4     do not interrupt the witness when he's answering the question, please.

 5             Yes, Mr. Brown.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I -- I -- I didn't see that --

 7     that those revenge attacks were the -- the reason why those

 8     municipalities or operations in those municipalities were undertaken.  It

 9     may well have been that there were incidents of revenge attacks.  This

10     document seems to note, reference something at the beginning.  There are

11     other Krajina Corps documents indicating that there were revenge attacks.

12     But Bosanski Novi, the operations that were take -- that took place

13     there, were planned and, as I said last week, seemed to follow a pattern

14     that can be documented.

15             And in many cases the attacks involved not paramilitary groups or

16     out-of-control groups, but formed units of the corps.  The 43rd Brigade

17     in Prijedor, the 5th Kozara Brigade in Prijedor, elements of them, at

18     least, the 6th Brigade in Sanski Most, the 1st Brigade in Kljuc, parts of

19     the 30th Division in other areas, Kotor Varos Light Brigade in

20     Kotor Varos.  These were not renegade, out-of-control units.

21             And if you look, for example, yesterday the document on

22     Sanski Most, you can see a clear chain from the decision on the

23     15th and the 16th of April down to the ARK Crisis Staff, the Sanski Most

24     Crisis Staff responding to the request of the ARK for disarmament

25     operations, Crisis Staff documents requesting that Colonel Basara and

Page 21857

 1     Colonel Ancic, who is the TO commander, were to conduct operations and a

 2     plan --

 3        Q.   I must interrupt you.  I'm kindly asking you this.  I'm not

 4     interested in you repeating your report.  Please answer my specific

 5     questions.  Did you rely on this document?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at item 5 and show it to

 7     the witness.  I'm sorry, I need to control my witness and my examination.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you take note of item 5?  You're simply retelling your

10     findings, and we already have them.

11        A.   Item 5 says what it says.  As I said to you yesterday, there are

12     other references in the Krajina Corps documents saying that you should

13     apply the Geneva Conventions or treat prisoners humanely.  But as I said

14     also, I did not see members of the 1st Krajina Corps being held to

15     account for any of the noted crimes in the documents that were flagged up

16     to me.

17             JUDGE KWON:  That will be all for today, Mr. Karadzic.  We'll

18     continue tomorrow.  We're sitting in the afternoon tomorrow, and resuming

19     at 2.15.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we adjourn, please, take

21     into account the number of paragraphs and references as well as the

22     number of documents and the importance of them.  This is a miniature

23     indictment pertaining to the Krajina, and I'll need much more time to

24     deal with it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 21858

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  I just wanted to say, since the witness is

 2     here - obviously I -- we can't communicate with him - if he could be

 3     given some idea of the amount of time remaining so that he knows what's

 4     going on with his life in the next -- tomorrow, so he can make plans.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has decided to give you the whole

 7     session tomorrow, the first session.  That means you will have another

 8     extra hour to finish your cross-examination.

 9             We are now adjourned.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day

13                           of November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.