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Page 21847

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's no inconvenience, Your Honour,

2 at all.

3 JUDGE KWON: And it's evident -- it has become evident that we

4 cannot conclude your evidence today and you have to stay overnight again.

5 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.

8 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

9 Q. I would like to know whether you used a document or a paragraph

10 from a document, and I'm not interested in the reasons why.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 6732.

12 It may already be a D exhibit. Actually, it's D1921. It has to do with

13 the treatment of civilians in the municipality of Novi Grad.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. While we're waiting for the document, I don't know if I asked you

16 if you knew that these Muslim civilians were offered transport by train

17 which they refused. They spent 17 days at home, and only on the second

18 occasion they accepted to be transported to Doboj. Were you aware of

19 that?

20 The question is unrelated to the document. Did you know that

21 they were not forced? They initially were offered transport which they

22 refused, and then 17 days later another offer was made which they

23 accepted. Did you know that?

24 A. I'm unaware of whatever negotiations may have gone on in relation

25 to -- to this. I can only go by the documentation that's there. I

Page 21848

1 believe this was a document that was referenced in my report. I would

2 doubt your characteristic that these individuals were somehow offered

3 transportation on -- on cattle trucks as some kind of good thing. It

4 seems pretty quickly after Novi -- or the Muslim areas in Novi were

5 subject to military operations a large number of those people were

6 leaving that municipality.

7 Q. Thank you. Recently we had a Muslim witness from the group who

8 confirmed what I just told you. In any case, have a look at this. Did

9 you refer to the paragraph beginning with "As of 1400 hours, and returns

10 weapons." It is the sixth or seventh row. Sorry, "1500 hours. However,

11 these activities," et cetera. Did you refer to that paragraph?

12 A. I'm not sure if I referred specifically to that paragraph. I --

13 I -- it's a large document, and I think the reason I was referring to it

14 was the story that seemed to be -- to be told from there, that there was

15 a dead-line set and that eventually a large number of people were taken

16 from their area of homes and -- and moved out of the municipality. I

17 can't remember if I specifically reference that line or that section.

18 Q. Could we see the bottom of the page in both versions. Can you

19 see that the population was taken to the stadium and that the population

20 was from Blagaj Japra? It all lasted between the 2nd June until the

21 5th of June, which is something that is already on the next side.

22 Searches and the fighting continued throughout that period, and following

23 it the population was returned. Did you take note of that and include it

24 in your report?

25 A. Well, they may have returned for a short space of time, but I

Page 21849

1 don't think it lasted very long, Mr. Karadzic.

2 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm interested only in why or whether you specified

3 reasons why the TO, without consulting the public security sector, did

4 so. It says here the 2nd of June, which is still on the first page in

5 the Serbian, as well as in the English version.

6 Do you know what the reasons were for the TO to execute that

7 operation? There was an order to rein in uncontrolled groups and units

8 which retaliated against the population and destroyed property.

9 Now we can go to the next page in English.

10 Can you see these reasons specified in the second paragraph, and

11 did you cite them?

12 A. I wonder if I can just take a second to read the first and second

13 pages again.

14 Yes. The document seems to indicate, at least here, that a large

15 number were taken, accorded information that the SJB had, that they were

16 taken initially to the stadium. They were released about a number of

17 days later. A significantly large number of people were moved out of the

18 municipality on those trains that we talked about earlier.

19 Q. That is incorrect, Mr. Brown. They were released to go home

20 then, and the train transport occurred at another time. You see here

21 that 120 of them voluntarily joined the army and only 18 were retained by

22 the military police, because there were reasons to suspect they were

23 involved in certain activities. Did you mention that?

24 A. I would have to look at my report. I'm not sure necessarily I

25 did. This is what the document does say, but my point was that

Page 21850

1 irrespective of whether a number of them were released, this group of

2 300 initially, were released back to their homes, within a few days later

3 a significantly large number, in the thousands, were moved out of the

4 municipality. And I believe many, at least even according to this

5 document, although 700 returned, a large number of them didn't return.

6 And then there are references later in the document about the

7 deregistration process which involved thousands more.

8 Q. Sir, let's stay with this. Disbanded on the 5th of June by most

9 of the citizens being released, free to go home. Does it say they were

10 free to go home?

11 A. It says most of the citizens being allowed home. Whether they

12 went home or whether they said home for a week and ended up on the trains

13 a week later, I don't know. This is what the document says, that most

14 were allowed home. I'm not sure that they remained home for very long,

15 however.

16 Q. Sir, it's up to the Prosecutor to deal with it. I'm simply

17 trying to ascertain whether you used this document appropriately, whether

18 you approached it objectively and made use of it in the correct way.

19 A. I believe I did, Mr. Karadzic.

20 Q. Well, you see, you didn't. Look page 4. It is the 24th or the

21 25th of May, I think that's how we can find it. The 24th of May. It

22 says, During the stay of those Muslim citizens in Blagaj, they were

23 provided health care and food supply. Some food was also received by

24 representatives of the Crisis Staff who said there were -- there was

25 enough food for everyone.

Page 21851

1 Further below, it mentions the period when uncontrolled

2 activities took place in the area of Bosanski Novi and the valley of

3 Japra. The functioning of the public security station in the area was

4 partially or completely made impossible at times. Based on that, the

5 public security station was unable to register the true nature of events.

6 Did you know that there were killings there of policemen?

7 A. I'm not aware of there being killings of policemen, whether it's

8 referenced in this document or elsewhere.

9 Q. Mr. Brown, it was mentioned that the crisis occurred after a

10 funeral of a policeman.

11 A. I don't believe the operations in Novi were somehow sparked off

12 or followed on from the killing of a policeman or, I think, even might

13 make mention of a soldier on page 1. I think this document, at the

14 beginning, highlights that operations were conducted in Bosanski Novi as

15 a result of instructions from a higher level, including Bogdan Subotic's

16 instruction of April, and ARK Crisis Staff decisions on disarmament, that

17 an operation took place in Bosanski Novi. It may well have been that

18 during that there had been retaliatory action, but a large number of

19 people ended up being moved out of that municipality after these

20 operations. That's my point with Novi. It may well have been that some

21 people were initially taken to the -- the sports centre, it may well have

22 been initially that some of them were allowed to return to their homes,

23 but I do not believe, from this document and also the pattern that seemed

24 to occur in other municipalities, that those people were being moved out

25 because of large-scale conflict, protracted large-scale conflict, and

Page 21852

1 were being moved out for their own safety at all. I think the document

2 shows that there was a plan of disarmament, that that plan was put into

3 operation in this case with a significant involvement of the TO, and that

4 the end product was that a large number of people of Muslim ethnicity

5 highlighted in this document left the municipality quite soon after that.

6 And I don't believe they came back, at least not in the period that I

7 looked at.

8 Q. I don't know if I asked you this: Did you know they were offered

9 to go to Banja Luka, which was another Serbian town just like Prijedor?

10 They refused both and put up an ultimatum wanting to go further afield to

11 Europe. Did you take note of that?

12 A. I was not aware of that, Mr. Karadzic. And it strikes me as

13 being somewhat unusual that individuals were being offered to go anywhere

14 other than their homes unless there was a desire or a keen desire to see

15 these people leave. In Bosanski Novi, there didn't -- operations were

16 again one of those municipalities where the operations themselves took --

17 took place quite quickly. They were over quite quickly. This wasn't a

18 long protracted conflict in that municipality in which armed groups were

19 fighting, you know, using significant amounts of weaponry. Operations

20 were finished quite quickly. And it seems to me unusual that you're

21 indicating that people should be offered to go anywhere other than their

22 homes unless there was a desire to see those individuals leave. And

23 that, along with other municipalities at the ARK at this time, I would

24 argue that there was a desire to see these individuals leave and that in

25 controlling the territory that was deemed to be part of the

Page 21853

1 Republika Srpska, there was not a desire to see a large number of

2 individuals who were seen deemed to be against that state in there. I

3 don't know why you would offer so many thousands of people to move to

4 Banja Luka or to other parts of Europe when actually the conflict was

5 over quite quickly. Unless there was a desire to see that those people

6 were not going to remain in that municipality.

7 Q. And if I were to tell you, Mr. Brown, that guerrilla groups and

8 leftover groups in the Sana valley, to a lesser extent Kljuc, but anyway,

9 by the Sana River, Bosanski Novi, Japra, Sanski Most, that these groups

10 existed all the way up until the end of 1994, what do you say to that?

11 Just tell us whether you knew that or not.

12 A. There are references in the 1st Krajina Corps documents after the

13 take-over of municipalities certainly of small groups. Whether they had

14 fled from the areas of conflict, how they were armed, is not always

15 clear. Those groups may well have been there. They don't seem to have

16 significantly curtailed the operations of the 1st Krajina Corps, nor were

17 they launching large attacks on units of the 1st Krajina Corps inside

18 those municipalities after they were taken. Yes, the 1st Krajina Corps

19 did make reference to cleansing operations, continuing to secure

20 territory in those municipalities after the attacks, but I don't see them

21 in any significant numbers nor them curtailing the 1st Krajina Corps.

22 And so I did not see those attacks in -- in Prijedor and Sanski Most and

23 Novi lasting very long, and yet a large number of people left. This is

24 according to their own documents.

25 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm telling you that until the end of 1994 there were

Page 21854

1 people living in dugouts, in the mountains and forests, killing farmers

2 in their fields, and policemen and soldiers in ambushes. It was far away

3 from the front lines, deep behind the backs of the 1st Krajina Corps. Do

4 you accept that or not? Yes or no? I claim it is true. We have

5 documents to support that. And we could already hear such evidence in

6 this courtroom. But do you deny that?

7 A. That may well have been the case, Mr. Karadzic, but what I'm

8 saying is you -- you cannot link those types of small-level operations

9 which may have occurred to somehow the mass removal of individuals from

10 municipalities under the guise that they were being protected in that

11 sort of combat situation. The operations that I saw after the territory

12 such as Prijedor, Sanski Most, Novi, Kljuc, after control was taken,

13 there was -- there may well have been those small incidents of ambushes

14 or groups hiding in woods who'd fled, but that somehow seems different

15 and separate to -- and -- and wasn't the type of combat that would seem,

16 to me at least, to have resulted in large -- thousands of individuals

17 somehow fleeing that type of combat. The operations that took place

18 after those municipalities occurred, if at all, were maybe of that

19 nature, small units, small bands, people hiding out. And I don't see a

20 relationship between that type of activity and what the Krajina Corps may

21 have done against those individuals and the large number of people who

22 had left that municipality at all.

23 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm asking you this: Do you accept that revenge by

24 unfortunate individuals could have had an impact on the general

25 population? Do you have any evidence of the 1st Krajina Corps doing

Page 21855

1 anything to those people? Let's look at page 7, security assessment.

2 You also did not take that into account. The SDS put forth its

3 positions. Do you accept that there were cases of revenge and that

4 uncontrolled elements in the society represented a danger to the same

5 society rather than that danger being posed by the 1st Krajina Corps?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 7 in the Serbian version,

7 please. Chapter 4 in the English. Can we locate that?

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Have you read this, and did you take it into account? Doesn't it

10 become clear that no one here is afraid of the 1st Krajina Corps but that

11 people were afraid of individuals who were out of control, who used the

12 guerrilla attacks as an excuse for personal vendetta?

13 A. Which part of the document are you referring to, Mr. Karadzic, on

14 this -- on this page?

15 Q. Let's say item 1. And then item 1. We can do without the

16 Serbian version. Then look at the second part of item 2. Disarmament by

17 forceful means of all individuals, groups, and paramilitary formations in

18 olive drab and camouflage fatigues. Do you see here what the position

19 was of the civilian authorities? Did you point that out in your report?

20 A. I'm not sure I referenced specifically this chapter. I did make

21 mention in the report to the issue of paramilitaries. There are some

22 references in the Krajina Corps documents to uncontrolled elements, and

23 there are references to revenge attacks, a number of references to that.

24 But I don't see --

25 Q. Please leave your buts for the Prosecution. They will have their

Page 21856

1 redirect. You did know about this, but did you take it into account?

2 Item 5, for example.

3 JUDGE KWON: No. As I indicated many times to you, Mr. Karadzic,

4 do not interrupt the witness when he's answering the question, please.

5 Yes, Mr. Brown.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I -- I -- I didn't see that --

7 that those revenge attacks were the -- the reason why those

8 municipalities or operations in those municipalities were undertaken. It

9 may well have been that there were incidents of revenge attacks. This

10 document seems to note, reference something at the beginning. There are

11 other Krajina Corps documents indicating that there were revenge attacks.

12 But Bosanski Novi, the operations that were take -- that took place

13 there, were planned and, as I said last week, seemed to follow a pattern

14 that can be documented.

15 And in many cases the attacks involved not paramilitary groups or

16 out-of-control groups, but formed units of the corps. The 43rd Brigade

17 in Prijedor, the 5th Kozara Brigade in Prijedor, elements of them, at

18 least, the 6th Brigade in Sanski Most, the 1st Brigade in Kljuc, parts of

19 the 30th Division in other areas, Kotor Varos Light Brigade in

20 Kotor Varos. These were not renegade, out-of-control units.

21 And if you look, for example, yesterday the document on

22 Sanski Most, you can see a clear chain from the decision on the

23 15th and the 16th of April down to the ARK Crisis Staff, the Sanski Most

24 Crisis Staff responding to the request of the ARK for disarmament

25 operations, Crisis Staff documents requesting that Colonel Basara and

Page 21857

1 Colonel Ancic, who is the TO commander, were to conduct operations and a

2 plan --

3 Q. I must interrupt you. I'm kindly asking you this. I'm not

4 interested in you repeating your report. Please answer my specific

5 questions. Did you rely on this document?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at item 5 and show it to

7 the witness. I'm sorry, I need to control my witness and my examination.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did you take note of item 5? You're simply retelling your

10 findings, and we already have them.

11 A. Item 5 says what it says. As I said to you yesterday, there are

12 other references in the Krajina Corps documents saying that you should

13 apply the Geneva Conventions or treat prisoners humanely. But as I said

14 also, I did not see members of the 1st Krajina Corps being held to

15 account for any of the noted crimes in the documents that were flagged up

16 to me.

17 JUDGE KWON: That will be all for today, Mr. Karadzic. We'll

18 continue tomorrow. We're sitting in the afternoon tomorrow, and resuming

19 at 2.15.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we adjourn, please, take

21 into account the number of paragraphs and references as well as the

22 number of documents and the importance of them. This is a miniature

23 indictment pertaining to the Krajina, and I'll need much more time to

24 deal with it.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 21858

1 MR. NICHOLLS: I just wanted to say, since the witness is

2 here - obviously I -- we can't communicate with him - if he could be

3 given some idea of the amount of time remaining so that he knows what's

4 going on with his life in the next -- tomorrow, so he can make plans.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has decided to give you the whole

7 session tomorrow, the first session. That means you will have another

8 extra hour to finish your cross-examination.

9 We are now adjourned.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day

13 of November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.