Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21859

 1                           Thursday, 24 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, sorry, could we go into private

 9     session for just one moment.  The witness does not need to leave.  I need

10     to raise one matter.  It's unrelated to this witness.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, good afternoon, Mr. Brown.

24             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

Page 21860

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Excellencies.

 2             Good afternoon to everyone.

 3                           WITNESS:  EWAN BROWN [Resumed]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.

 6        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to

 8     address you briefly, if I may.  First of all, I hope I will -- you will

 9     have an understanding when I say that three witnesses a day are a lot to

10     deal with even for a professional, let alone an amateur.  Hence, I would

11     like to ask for your permission not to have to examine the third witness

12     and perhaps we could save some time in that regard.  And if in any way

13     possible, the time saved thus to be allocated to this witness.  I also

14     wanted to draw your attention to the fact that there are 500 paragraphs

15     in this report, whereas I received 480 minutes for my examination.  Even

16     with simple yes or no answers, I'd still be unable to deal with them all.

17     That is why I have to randomly choose the paragraphs and topics, since I

18     have no other possibility.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  In order to be clear, who do you refer to the third

20     one?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Weren't we supposed to have a third

22     witness in case we completed witness 039 in time?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll consider that, yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21861

 1        Q.   Mr. Brown, I'll ask you only --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger ...

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has decided to accommodate that request,

 7     which seems to be fair enough to the Chamber.  So if you still keep him,

 8     you can release him.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Further, we are going to have trial for five days next week.

12     Very well.

13             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Brown, I will only ask you about the foundation for your

16     conclusions and I'll strive to put questions that can be answered with

17     yes or no.  In paragraph 2.73, you discuss the similarities and model of

18     activity and conduct of the 1st Krajina Corps in the municipalities of

19     the Krajina.  Were you able to ascertain in which of those municipalities

20     nothing happened and in which municipalities saw events that could not be

21     compared to the model you propose?

22        A.   Well, in relation to disarmament operations that we've discussed

23     in the last few days, I certainly saw similarities in the municipalities

24     of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Novi, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, to a degree, although

25     that happened a little bit later.  There were movements out, I'm aware

Page 21862

 1     from the documents, in Banja Luka, although there was not the type of

 2     attacks that I saw in those other noted municipalities.  One of the

 3     possible complications was that the zone of responsibility of the

 4     1st Krajina Corps expanded and --

 5        Q.   I apologise.  Please only tell me whether you were able to

 6     observe how many municipalities there were where nothing happened and how

 7     many municipalities saw a mild model that you proposed.  In other words,

 8     I'm trying to ask you whether the model was applied to all the

 9     municipalities.

10        A.   As I was saying, one of the difficulties was that the corps

11     expanded its zone of responsibility in the summer of 1992.  So some of

12     the municipalities in the corridor area were, I would argue, slightly

13     different to those municipalities I've just mentioned.  And that would

14     seem to go back to the combat analysis readiness report, which indicated

15     that there were, in essence, two phases:  One phase where municipalities

16     were secured, and then there was a second phase where larger operations

17     took place.  There were from the documents some municipalities where that

18     pattern did not necessarily fit, possibly in --

19        Q.   Thank you.  That's fine.  How would it sound to you if I told you

20     that a Muslim witness the other day told us that where they were, there

21     were no problems where the Muslim population represented less than 50

22     per cent of the population, whereas problems occurred in such

23     municipalities where they were accounted for, say one-half of the

24     population, and he enumerated the municipalities where there were no

25     problems at all.

Page 21863

 1        A.   In which municipality was this witness talking about,

 2     Mr. Karadzic?

 3        Q.   Sir, if you agree, in the Banja Luka Krajina there were 17

 4     municipalities.  If we add to that the municipalities of Derventa, Doboj,

 5     and those in the corridor, there was a total of over 20.  In the initial

 6     group of 17 before the 1st Krajina Corps zone was expanded, was the model

 7     applied to all the municipalities, or did you make a calculation as to

 8     how many municipalities were absent of such events and how many

 9     municipalities saw a milder model applied to them?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry to interrupt.  No objection.  If we could

12     just -- not necessarily get a page cite, but a cite to the witness that

13     Mr. Karadzic is referring to on the previous page at line 20.  It can be

14     told to me later.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

16             Yes, Mr. Brown.

17             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure whether all 17 municipalities were in

18     the zone of the 1st Krajina Corps.  I would have to check on that.  I did

19     do a section on the area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps.  And

20     I'm not sure what you mean by the issue of a milder model.  What I do

21     know is that in the municipalities I've articulated, they certainly seem

22     to fit that model, of disarmament operations and taking control.  It may

23     well have been that in some of the other municipalities where the Serbs

24     were a significant majority, that there was not the need to follow

25     exactly that type of pattern.  But even in municipalities, for example,

Page 21864

 1     in Celinac where the Muslims were I believe in a very small number, maybe

 2     even about 10 or certainly under 20 per cent, there are references in the

 3     1st Krajina Corps of operations and attacks there, which we talked about

 4     before.  So I -- it may well have been that some municipalities differed

 5     depending on their ethnicity, but there did seem a desire to control

 6     that -- those territories and municipalities in the ARK zone.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Let me remind you.  In Celinac there were no

 9     operations.  There were incidents, though, in the village of Bastasi.  In

10     some municipalities there were operations.  Do you accept that there were

11     operations only where they were armed Muslim forces, where they had

12     initiated the killing of Serb soldiers deep in the rear of the Serb

13     forces, yes or no?

14        A.   No, I do not agree with that characterisation.

15        Q.   Thank you.  If I told you that 17 plus four or five

16     municipalities in the corridor amounted to 22 or 23 municipalities which

17     were within the zone of the corps and yet you can only enumerate four or

18     five that fit your bill in the valley of the Sava, what would you say to

19     that?  Kljuc, Sanski Most, Prijedor, and Novi were in the Sana River

20     valley which was one of the strategic goals to be achieved by the Muslim

21     5th Corps from Bihac.  It was confirmed to us that this was so indeed by

22     a Muslim witness.  Do you accept or are you saying that wherever there

23     was a larger concentration of Muslims, whatever the municipality, the

24     Serbs attacked?

25        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I wouldn't advocate that position, based on the

Page 21865

 1     documents I saw.  This wasn't a report looking at every single

 2     municipality and every single known Serb populated area in that area.

 3     What I can say certainly in May and June the municipalities that I

 4     articulated and that were heavily reported in the documents of the

 5     1st Krajina Corps did see these types of attacks and large numbers of

 6     individuals leaving the municipalities in the weeks and months following

 7     that.  The corridor was a slightly different set of circumstances because

 8     the -- I believe mainly Croats had taken control of municipalities in the

 9     corridor from late March onwards in some of the municipalities.  However,

10     after operations by the 1st Krajina Corps had occurred in the summer of

11     1992, control was taken and I believe a large number of Croats in those

12     municipalities fled.  The situation in the corridor municipalities is

13     slightly different, but it seems that the end result was quite similar.

14        Q.   Did you know that the Serbs were in the majority in Derventa, in

15     Doboj, in Modrica, and they were not in the majority in Orasje and Odzak,

16     and did you know that we managed to take Odzak back my peaceful means

17     after the war?

18        A.   I know that some of the municipalities in the corridor

19     where Croats were in the majority or non-Serbs were in the majority and

20     in some municipalities that Serbs were in the municipality -- Doboj, for

21     example, was one that was not a Serb majority and there were a number of

22     other ones as well.  So it's not an area that I studied and the ethnic

23     break-up of -- the ethnic make-up of the municipalities in Doboj --

24     sorry, in the corridor was not an area of this report.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether you answered the question,

Page 21866

 1     Mr. Brown.  The question was:  Did you know that we managed --

 2     Mr. Karadzic, we managed to take Odzak back by peaceful means after the

 3     war.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure what Mr. Karadzic means by peaceful

 5     means or whether as part of the Dayton Agreement Odzak was to be returned

 6     back to RS control and placed in the territory of the RS.  It may well

 7     have been because it might have been a Serbian -- predominantly Serbian

 8     municipality.  It may well have been that it was part of the

 9     Dayton Agreement.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I may have misspoken or there may have been a misinterpretation.

12     We controlled Odzak and Croats were in the majority there before the war.

13     After the war we returned it to the Croats.

14        A.   Well, Mr. Karadzic, that may well have been the case.  I know

15     that Serb VRS forces, 1 Krajina Corps forces took control of the

16     territory in the summer, but it may well have been as part of the

17     Dayton Agreement and that was returned to Croat or non-Serb control.  But

18     I would imagine it was part of the Dayton Agreement.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at -- sorry, of course as a soldier you

20     will agree that one does not return territory before a peace agreement is

21     concluded; correct?

22        A.   I think that's a rather general question which I'm not sure I can

23     answer one way or the other.  Territory can be returned for military

24     purposes, but clearly territory can be returned as part of negotiated

25     settlements.  Territory can be returned to control of peacekeepers or

Page 21867

 1     buffer zones.  I'm not sure what you -- what you exactly mean.  There's

 2     no simple answer to that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at 2.88 and 2.89.  In 2.89, you say that

 4     it is obvious that Major-General Talic did very little, save for

 5     submitting a report about an incident in two combat reports of his.  I

 6     wouldn't call the event in question an incident, but rather a tragedy, a

 7     crime, which occurred at Mount Vlasic.  And this is what you refer to in

 8     that paragraph.  In your view, Talic should have done more; is that

 9     correct?  It's paragraph 2.89.

10        A.   Yes, I potentially think General Talic should have done more.

11     I'm not saying that he didn't do anything because he reported up his

12     chain, but it seemed to me that he was certainly emphasising the fact

13     that no soldiers were involved in it.  There could have been, I would

14     have thought, a significant amount more that General Talic could have

15     done.  But I'm not saying that he didn't do anything because he did

16     report up the chain and clearly the events involved or the perpetrators

17     identified in the Krajina Corps documents identify the police as the

18     perpetrators.  And I would certainly agree with your characterisation

19     that -- well, a tragedy and it was clearly a very significant incident in

20     which a large number of people were killed on Mount Vlasic and thrown

21     down the canyon.  Bearing in mind the gravity of the incident, I would

22     have thought General Talic may well have done a lot more than just report

23     it up his chain.

24        Q.   Do you agree that General Talic, like Colonel Peulic,

25     investigated whether the military was involved and their conclusion was

Page 21868

 1     that it was not; is that correct?

 2        A.   From his statement in the media, he indicates that the army

 3     carried out an investigation into whether members were involved and

 4     claims that they weren't.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the military was not competent to

 6     deal with the civilian police and that there was nothing for him to do,

 7     save for reporting it to his superiors?

 8        A.   Well, I can only say as a former soldier and as -- and reading

 9     the documents that, yes, he did report it up the chain.  But I would

10     argue that he could have done more than that --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Brown, in your opinion, what could or should he

12     have done more, other than reporting it?

13             THE WITNESS:  I believe he could have secured the site.  I could

14     have -- he could well have conducted a thorough investigation on his own

15     to find out exactly who did it and under what circumstances.  He could

16     well have used his own investigative military police resources to conduct

17     a very thorough investigation, and then pass that on to the civilian

18     authorities in order to be part of a wider investigation.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Having found that the perpetrators were police

20     members, do you say that he had the jurisdiction to investigate into

21     police members?

22             THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't know the legislation necessarily, but

23     he clearly knows who the perpetrators are very quickly --

24             JUDGE KWON:  But --

25             THE WITNESS:  And Colonel Peulic was the operations group

Page 21869

 1     commander of that zone.  In essence, it was a military zone.  And I

 2     believe also that the -- you know, the convoy was going through the

 3     operation group commander's zone, an area.  So the military were not

 4     completely and utterly out of it, but it's clear that the perpetrators

 5     are identified as the police.  I'm not sure what the legal -- the legal

 6     laws for General Talic would be in terms of prosecuting the police.  I

 7     doubt that very much.  However, bearing in mind the large numbers of

 8     people that were involved in this and the instantaneously knowledge that

 9     General Talic had that the event had occurred, I think I put in my report

10     he probably did the bare minimum.  But I do think that he probably could

11     have done more.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Brown, in paragraph 2.88, we can see what Peulic proposed.

16     Did you know that his unit did secure the scene, and did you know that

17     the civilian police as well as the Ministry of Defence and the CSB

18     immediately took part in investigations and that Talic had nothing to do

19     there?

20        A.   Well, I'm not aware of that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Very well.  In paragraph 2.140, you discuss the

22     policy of moving people out.  Did you come across my messages, Telefax

23     messages, by which I prohibited that civilians be moved?

24        A.   They were not evident to me in the documents that I reviewed,

25     Mr. Karadzic, and if you would like to show them I'm sure I can read

Page 21870

 1     them.

 2        Q.   I can show one.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it please be 65 ter 1397.

 4     65 ter 13937.  This is not it.  Yes, this is it.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I will read until we manage to establish whether there is a

 7     translation.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Karadzic be

 9     asked to read very slowly.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat.  Start again.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             Title:  "Office of the State Security Service Mrkonjic Grad."

13     The body of the document:

14             "We forward in its entirety a dispatch of the RDB in

15     Sarajevo III," that is to say the 3rd Administration and we have the

16     number, which has to do with the moving out of civilians from the

17     municipality of Srbobran.  This was our name for Gornji Vakuf.  There

18     they go on to quote the entire message:

19             "We forward the entire information note about the moving out of

20     civilians from the area of Srbobran municipality which was sent to the

21     president of the RS, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, by the president of the

22     Municipal Assembly, Srbobran Nedeljko Ninkovic, and an MP at the

23     National Assembly of the RS Nikola Kisin."

24             Third paragraph:

25             "President, we informed you about the removal of population from

Page 21871

 1     this area at an earlier stage," we have the date, "following which we

 2     received your order," we have the number, "about the prohibition of

 3     removing people from our area.  We are abiding by it strictly.  We orally

 4     informed you that the chief of the SJB in Srbobran was trying to talk

 5     people into moving out and he admitted to having done so in the CSB in

 6     Banja Luka before" --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter missed the last sentence

 8     because the page was scrolled down.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, could you start again from the part

10     interpreters couldn't follow.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "We acquainted the commander of the

12     30th Division, Colonel Zec, about the removal and who was doing it.

13     Since then, things have not become any better.  Basically, the entire

14     area of Turbet and Golos have been moved out from.  There are still

15     individual cases of people moving from the area of Srbobran and certain

16     permits were issued to that effect by the command of the 19th Light

17     Infantry Brigade and commander Lieutenant-Colonel Ljubomir Jekic and

18     Mr. Kovacevic.  We also have information confirming that such

19     certificates were issued by the SJB in Srbobran, although they are not

20     registered anywhere.  Although there is a mixed check-point by the

21     military and civilian police in two and a half years, very few people

22     were returned with personal effects.  They are all basically dragging

23     their feet.  We tried to warn them but it is of no use.  It is necessary

24     to expand on the information received and to forward them a.s.a.p. to

25     this administration."

Page 21872

 1             So this refers to the area from Srbobran to Mrkonjic Grad, and

 2     then it was reported to Banja Luka and Sarajevo having finally reached

 3     me.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Have you come across this document.  Can you see that for two and

 6     a half years there were attempts to prevent such occurrences, and could

 7     you see here that people themselves were asking for certificates, for

 8     permits to move out, whereas we were trying to prevent them from

 9     receiving them?

10        A.   I can only go on the translation there.  It's not clear to me

11     whether they're talking about Serbs who are in Srbobran who want to get

12     away from the conflict zone, which I believe Srbobran and Donji Vakuf

13     were right on the front line.  It may well have been that the people

14     we're talking about here are Serbs who might want to move to a safer

15     location or it may well be that it's non-Serbs.  It's not clear to me.

16     I'm not sure in 1994 the ethnic make-up of Srbobran municipality was, but

17     I do know that it was, in essence -- as far as I'm aware, it was made up

18     predominantly of Serb areas of the wider Donji Vakuf municipality that

19     had existed before the conflict.  So I would have to read the document

20     again and it may well be that what they're saying here is that we don't

21     want Serbs to leave this area and they might be wanting to leave because

22     of the conflict zone that was going on there because it becomes a

23     territory that we're not populating.  It may well be that they're talking

24     about the last remnants or the remnants of non-Serbs who are in Srbobran

25     who want to move to Central Bosnia.  I'm not clear from the document.

Page 21873

 1     Also the date is of some note, I think you're talking about 1994 here and

 2     it may well be a specific -- specific issue related to this area.  But it

 3     seems to be, you know, two years after 1992 in which my report covers,

 4     where large numbers of non-Serbs, significantly number of non-Serbs, had

 5     left a number of Krajina municipalities.

 6        Q.   But here you see it doesn't state the ethnicity of these persons.

 7     This is about civilians and it says that -- it refers to two and a half

 8     years, which means that all of 1992 is included.  However, in your

 9     paragraph 148 you say that in the 1st Krajina Corps they're reporting

10     that in the zone of responsibility there is a special problem is -- posed

11     by Muslims and Croats who are seeking permission to move out of the area

12     in which they live and move to territories held by the forces of the zone

13     at Beretke and HVO.  And then the Red Cross in Mrkonjic Grad is

14     negotiating what the HVO from Jajce and the authorities from neighbouring

15     municipalities are trying to reach agreement.

16             So can you see that this is about from the Muslims from

17     Donji Vakuf which is the same as Srbobran and that in all the

18     municipalities on both sides of the line of conflict there are efforts

19     made to let the population cross the line?

20        A.   Well, you seem to be characterising the movement in 1992 as

21     somehow this voluntarily movement.  And it's, I think -- from the

22     documents I've highlighted and some of the references in the report, I

23     don't see that.  When we look at the issue of the ARK decisions,

24     references in the 1st Krajina Corps that we must strive for complete

25     separation, when we look at references in the 1st Krajina Corps that

Page 21874

 1     people are not going to be allowed to return, when we look at documents,

 2     for example, the Novi documents, large number of people were leaving and

 3     I don't believe -- I don't see it as a voluntarily, happy movement out of

 4     the territory.  These were large numbers of people in a very short space

 5     of time, it seems to me from the documents I have reviewed, who were

 6     moving and being forced to move out of territory that is wanted to be

 7     controlled by the RS authorities.

 8        Q.   We'll get there yet.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Has it been notified to the Prosecution?  I didn't

11     see this in the list.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think so.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm not sure, Your Honour, but in any event no

14     objection, pending translation, from me.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We mark it for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1939, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the record, please take into

18     consideration that during the war we called Donji Vakuf Srbobran.  So

19     it's one and the same place.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   But, Mr. Brown, can you see here to 2.141.  You are citing a

22     document that speaks about the HVO from Jajce negotiating with the

23     Red Cross of Mrkonjic Grad for the Serbs from Jajce to be taken to the

24     other side and the Croats and Muslims from Mrkonjic Grad in the opposite

25     direction.  And it says on the principle of allowing people to choose

Page 21875

 1     freely where they will live, if this change is effected successfully, it

 2     will be followed by an exchange of prisoners of war.  This is what you

 3     stated here, isn't it?  You cite this document.

 4        A.   What footnote is that, Mr. Karadzic?

 5        Q.   538, the regular combat report of the 1st Krajina Corps dated

 6     13 August 1992.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just to answer Your Honour's last question, it was

 8     not notified.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And untranslated.

10             THE ACCUSED:  Additional information I'm missing that doc.  Came

11     in.  [Interpretation] I think it's arrived.  We should check the e-mail.

12             THE WITNESS:  That would seem to be what the document says.

13     There were references and there were, indeed, Red Cross agreements.

14     Whether these people are voluntarily moving is another question.  And

15     just I think for clarification, I don't think Srbobran covered the whole

16     of Donji Vakuf.  As I'm aware, Srbobran was only the small part of

17     Donji Vakuf municipality.  It wasn't -- it wasn't the whole municipality.

18     I believe it was just the part that the RS territory controlled.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   For your information, all of Srbobran was remained Donji Vakuf

21     and the Serb controlled all of Srbobran until autumn 1995, but never

22     mind.

23             Mr. Brown, now we can make conjectures one way or the other, but

24     you made an analysis based on documents.  This document speaks about the

25     wishes of the two parties and the negotiations that took place to enable

Page 21876

 1     people to move to a zone where they felt safer.  Now, when you say we

 2     don't know if it's voluntarily, that's another question.  What I'm asking

 3     you is:  Are you confusing voluntarily movements and movement due to

 4     fear, being made to move?  Now, what exactly do you mean?  Fleeing before

 5     the police or other forces or driving people out through fear?  Do you

 6     distinguish there?

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, Your Honours, if we're talking about

 8     footnote 538 still that's 04204 is the 65 ter number if Mr. Karadzic

 9     wishes to call it up.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And further I note that item was included in the

11     e-mail.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Oh, thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Brown.

14             THE WITNESS:  I don't think I'm confused -- I'm confusing.

15     Clearly there are -- may be many reasons why individuals do want to move,

16     and one of them could well be that in their combat zones they're -- they

17     are frightened.  I don't doubt that for a minute.  There are many other

18     reasons.  For example, in one of the combat reports on the 30th or 31st,

19     I believe, of May, after operations in Kljuc, Kozarac, Sanski Most, which

20     they specifically refer, they make reference to the fact that conscripts

21     of a Muslim ethnicity are asking to leave the Krajina Corps and the

22     reason that they're doing that is because they -- they are unhappy about

23     the massive destruction of their towns in those areas.  And that's a

24     combat report of the corps.  So the destruction that was occurring in

25     these attacks undoubtedly led to significant fear, but I go back to my

Page 21877

 1     point that the ARK Crisis Staff was issuing instructions that the

 2     military were interpreting that people were going to be leaving the area

 3     in large numbers and would not be returning.  And that those leaving,

 4     that they were going to be expecting Serbs in other territory to come

 5     into RS territory.  And so, yes, undoubtedly many people probably were

 6     frightened and fled and wanted to leave, but this issue of forcible

 7     movement is clearly evident in the documents and it would seem to me that

 8     the military and the 1st Krajina Corps in particular were aware that

 9     there was a forcible removal of individuals and that people, once they

10     had left, were not going to be coming back.  And also in the police

11     documents with issues such as deregistration, permanent deregistration

12     documents being signed, it would seem to me that reading those documents

13     that a large number of people were not voluntarily moving, but they were

14     moving and they would not come back to their homes, whether their homes

15     existed in some cases or not.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Brown, I don't have time to clarify this.  I put it to you

18     that the organised forces, that is, the army and the police, moved nobody

19     forcibly.  I'll try to prove that in other words.  But do you think that

20     a decision made by a municipality that someone may not return is valid?

21     Isn't the RS the negotiating party and that with regard to return, only

22     the RS has a say and only that -- only their decisions are valid?

23        A.   Is your point that someone can stay only if the RS authorises

24     them to stay?  Is that your point, Mr. Karadzic?

25        Q.   Sir, I'm speaking about the right of refugees to return.  Have

Page 21878

 1     you seen the documents in which I say that refugees and abandoned

 2     property are a temporary occurrence and that after the war everything

 3     must be restored and everybody must be given the right to return.  Have

 4     you come across any such document of mine which also presupposes the ban

 5     of influencing anybody's decision whether or not to move?

 6        A.   The documents I reviewed in the Krajina Corps and select -- other

 7     documents in relation to the ARK, I didn't see that, Mr. Karadzic, I

 8     didn't that at all.  And all I can say is from the documents that I see,

 9     some of the military documents would seem to indicate there was an

10     understanding in their own documents that individuals who were leaving

11     were not going to be returning and that there was a desire to have Serbs

12     in other territories come to RS territory.  And, in essence, that that

13     would have -- that that was a policy certainly pushed out through the

14     ARK.

15        Q.   And have you seen that whoever wrote that nonsense also said that

16     Serbs, too, who didn't want to take part in combat were also leaving the

17     RS and that they also would not be allowed to return?

18        A.   It may well have said that in that document.  I would have to go

19     back to it again.  It wouldn't surprise me.  I think there may well have

20     been a belief that people that were trying to not take part in this or

21     not become part of the RS military and maybe who fled to Serbia were

22     somehow traitors or not supporting the cause.  It may well have been that

23     that's what was echoed in those documents.  It may well have been that a

24     significant number of Serbs in the RS didn't support the policy and I

25     wonder if that was one of the reasons they may well have left.  But I

Page 21879

 1     don't doubt it that that type of comment may well have appeared in some

 2     of the Krajina Corps military documents.

 3        Q.   Well, you didn't only read military documents, but also the --

 4     those of the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina, which stated that Serbs, not

 5     only Muslims, who were leaving the RS would also lose some of their

 6     rights.  You may have seen in some documents that both Serbs and Muslims

 7     leaving the RS would lose some rights?

 8        A.   That may well have been the case.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that on 19 August I made null and void

10     all certificates about the surrender of property?  Are you aware of that?

11        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I'm not aware of that.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, no -- just for the record, could we get the

14     year?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1992.  Through Witness Doyle, we

16     tendered the document.  He informed me on 16 August in London about this

17     occurrence and immediately upon returning to Pale on 19 August, I

18     ordered -- I made an order to declare all this null and void and he told

19     me chapeau, he didn't know that I had done that.  I'm not sure under

20     which number it was admitted.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you know that as of 22 April 1992 I advocated, among others,

23     the right of refugees to return in all documents and that I signed many

24     documents stating that this was their unalienable right, that is, either

25     the return of refugees or their compensation for the property lost or

Page 21880

 1     destroyed during the war?

 2             D1754 is the document number, the one of 19 August 1992.

 3        A.   Well, Mr. Karadzic, I'm not aware of the instruction on the

 4     22nd of April.  All I can say is that whatever instruction you passed out

 5     on that day did not seem to have an effect on the Krajina some months

 6     later, if, indeed, that's -- was a genuine attempt.

 7        Q.   Well, Mr. Brown, I don't expect a witness to be as biassed as to

 8     doubt the documents issued by the president of a republic, documents that

 9     have been issued.  Do leave these things to the Prosecution.  But did you

10     see any documents and were you aware of the actions of the leadership of

11     the state?  That was my interest.  But now I know that you did not see

12     any such documents.  Now I will move on to paragraph 2.134, although

13     thousands of non-Serbs ended in detention centres before being removed

14     from the Krajina area, it is evident that larger numbers of Muslims and

15     Croats either fled, were forced and expelled their homes or were

16     desperate enough to leave.  Do you consider it important enough for this

17     Trial Chamber to draw a distinction between these reasons, for the

18     Trial Chamber to know who fled, who was expelled, and what number of

19     people were desperate enough to leave?  For the purpose of criminal

20     proceedings, these distinctions matter.

21        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I don't really think I'm in a position to explain

22     or advise the Trial Chamber of the importance of their work and job.

23        Q.   And do you think that it's all of the same weight, all these

24     reasons I mean, or that difference is significant and that it should be

25     pointed out?

Page 21881

 1        A.   I'm not a lawyer and -- Mr. Karadzic, and I'm not presenting that

 2     in a way that has legal weight.  My analysis leads me to the conclusion,

 3     as I've talked about before, that there was a desire to mark out RS

 4     territory through articulation such as the 16th Assembly Session,

 5     although not exclusively that, there was an articulation to map out

 6     territory that you and others in the RS leadership wanted to control and

 7     that part of that would involve the moving out of large numbers of people

 8     who were viewed as being against RS -- the RS state.  Whether individuals

 9     were all forced out or felt frightened enough to leave or took up offers

10     of the Red Cross and other humanitarian organisations to leave or through

11     massive destructions of property and their own homes felt desperate

12     enough to leave, to me is all part of the same issue.  My analysis of

13     documents that I saw lead me to the conclusion that there was a desire to

14     mark out RS territory and to ensure that within that RS territory there

15     would not be a large number of individuals who were viewed as enemies,

16     and were viewed as against that state, and that's what I -- and how they

17     left, it was not part of the detail of this report.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             Mr. Nicholls, the exhibit Mr. Karadzic referred to as his order

20     to comply with Geneva Conventions or something like that is D1754 is

21     still under seal.  Is it for the same reason as you referred to yesterday

22     and being still the subject of further consideration?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  It may be -- it may be, Your Honours.  As I said,

24     though, we did file a chart and my recollection is all those types of

25     materials Mr. Karadzic, his orders to obey the Geneva Conventions, and

Page 21882

 1     those types of things, we did not mark to be under seal on our chart.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Brown, one thing is marking the borders of the RS, and I put

 5     it to you that all three parties agreed to these borders as well as the

 6     fourth party, the European Community, which offered.  If you're not

 7     familiar with the conference, then say so, but when you speak about the

 8     borders, I put it to you that that was exactly how it was.  Do you know

 9     that the borders in existence have been accepted by all four sides?

10        A.   As I've said to you before, I do not believe the discussions

11     about borders in and around the Cutileiro discussions are exactly the

12     same as the borders that the RS state articulated as they wanted to have

13     through discussions before and in particular at the

14     16th Assembly Session.  I think there are differences in those borders.

15     If you're talking about the existence of borders now and the borders that

16     were established in Dayton, there are differences between Dayton and RS

17     territory, as articulated in 1992.  But it is not a significant or

18     detailed area of my report.  The borders are important but not the

19     differences between the various negotiations.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Then I won't ask you whether or not in negotiations

21     you start with the lowest price or start high and then negotiate.  But

22     where did you get the information that can also be found in the document

23     that we wanted to separate ourselves from the Muslims who also stayed in

24     the RS, when it says the separation of states belonging to the other two

25     peoples?  Did you take that from the indictment or was that section of

Page 21883

 1     the indictment taken from you?  And how does that match your thesis that

 2     there was no removal in some municipalities, there were some villages

 3     such as Janja near Bijeljina and others where nobody left?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  I've been trying not to object.  That is an

 6     extremely large, compound question, and it's up to Mr. Karadzic -- but a

 7     lot of that ground was gone over on the first day.  It's up to him if he

 8     wants to go over it again.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I think, Mr. Karadzic, you can reformulate your

10     question in a simpler form.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Brown, that there is no place in the RS in which

13     there were no Muslims left until the end of the war, except possibly for

14     Drvar, but there were no Muslims there even before the war?  There is no

15     one settlement where a significant number of Muslims did not stay until

16     the war.  I mean, that's a simple question.

17        A.   It may well be that there were numbers of Muslims that did remain

18     in a number of areas.  I'm not stating in my report that every single

19     Muslim in RS territory was to be expelled.  I think in your own words at

20     the 16th Assembly Session, you indicated:  We do not want large numbers.

21     So I'm not advocating that there may well have been some pockets of

22     non-Serbs that remained in RS territory, maybe even through the whole

23     war.  But I stick to my assertion that through the documents that I saw,

24     there was an expectation that large numbers of non-Serbs in RS

25     territories would not remain in RS territory.  You, yourself, I believe,

Page 21884

 1     on one of the Deputy Club meetings in February indicated that you wanted

 2     90 per cent of Serbs in your republic and that that may mean that

 3     10 per cent were outside, but that we would make space for them, we would

 4     have them if necessary.  So I don't argue that at the

 5     16th Assembly Session this was the first time they were talking about

 6     separation, nor that every single Muslim in RS territory was going to

 7     necessarily leave but --

 8        Q.   Thank you, thank you --

 9        A.   But I do assert that in the establishment of the RS, large

10     numbers and significantly large numbers were not expected to stay and, in

11     fact, were moved out.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, first of all, your calculation that 90 per cent

13     of the Serbs should be in the RS doesn't mean that only 10 per cent

14     remained elsewhere, but that around 90 per cent of the Serbs in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina with their territories should join the RS.  But you

16     also saw that I opposed territorial megalomania, which means we did not

17     covet territories that were not ours, because otherwise we would have had

18     a large number of persons who were dissatisfied with the RS.  And you

19     still claim that I meant people who stayed in the RS, and, secondly, that

20     90 per cent of the overall population of the RS were Serbs, none of which

21     is correct.  You misunderstand it totally.  Me, Izetbegovic, and Boban

22     agreed that every village, if possible --

23             JUDGE KWON:  You are not to argue with the witness.  You are

24     supposed to put a question.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 21885

 1        Q.   My question is:  Were you saying that it was our wish for

 2     90 per cent of the population of the RS to be of Serbian ethnicity, or

 3     that we wanted 90 per cent of all Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina to live

 4     in our territorial unit; the former or the latter?

 5        A.   I would have to go over the Deputy Club minutes, but it's my

 6     understanding that you articulated then that 90 per cent of Serbs in

 7     Bosnia should be within RS territory.  And that along with some other

 8     references in other minutes and, importantly, the 16th Assembly Session,

 9     leads me to the conclusion that in RS territory there was going to be

10     predominantly Serb, large numbers of non-Serbs would not be welcome in RS

11     territory, and events and the days and weeks after the

12     16th Assembly Session --

13        Q.   I understand.

14        A.   -- seemed to indicate that large numbers did not remain and were

15     forcibly removed from that territory and, in fact, had already occurred

16     in a number of municipalities even prior to the 16th Assembly Session.

17        Q.   Did you get to see my speech of the 25th of January, 1992, in the

18     joint Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, where I said:  If you proclaim

19     independence and if you go for a referendum, before regionalisation a war

20     is going to break out, everybody is going to kill everybody else,

21     everybody is going to flee to their own areas, we will become homogenous,

22     and yet again we will have to seek agreement?  Have you seen that speech

23     at all?  Did you take it into account at all?

24        A.   I did not see that speech, Mr. Karadzic.  It may well be that

25     that's what you said in the Assembly session.  Concurrent with that, I

Page 21886

 1     think, the SDS leadership as I've articulated through some JNA documents

 2     were certainly arming and preparing that if negotiations failed that

 3     territory was going to be seized and that that territory was going to

 4     consist predominantly of Serb-controlled municipalities and that large

 5     numbers of non-Serbs in those municipalities would be removed.  And I

 6     believe certainly in some of the ARK municipalities I saw, that's what

 7     happened.

 8        Q.   Sir, I reject that as strongly as possible and claim that you do

 9     not have any support in anything to be claiming that.  Let us now look

10     at --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the number.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   On the 24th of April, the corps together with government organs,

14     state organs, tried to prevent attacks and the forcible removal of people

15     [In English] "In co-operation with the governmental organs to prevent

16     attacks and they forced eviction of people regardless of their ethnic or

17     religious background."  [Interpretation] So it's the army --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, what are we talking about?  Could you

19     give the number again.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2.135, paragraph 2.135, and this is

21     Mr. Brown's very own findings.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Are you trying to say that the corps were telling on themselves,

25     or is it not clear that the government and the corps were against that?

Page 21887

 1        A.   I think I argue in the report that certainly in the periods of

 2     March and April the JNA did pass down some instructions which indicated

 3     that they wished to try and defuse ethnic tensions and that they wanted

 4     to try and prevent attacks in areas.  I believe this was probably to try

 5     and keep Bosnia within Yugoslavia.  After all, they were a federal --

 6        Q.   Sir --

 7        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8        Q.   Sir, you're reading things into this.  Is it not clear here that

 9     the authorities and the army are against this?  You are reading your very

10     own thoughts into this.  I'm asking you what you actually found here.

11     Did you write here that it was clear in April that the government and the

12     authorities were trying to prevent undesirable things from happening?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do not, please, interrupt the witness with his

14     answer.

15             Please continue, Mr. Brown.

16             THE WITNESS:  I think it is part of this twin-track policy.  The

17     JNA, I believe, were trying to keep as much of Yugoslavia together.  They

18     did pass down instructions that indicated that they wished to try and

19     defuse ethnic tensions, some instructions, and I think this reference is

20     someone of them.  Concurrently with that, they were also -- there were

21     also references that they clearly sided with the Serb position, that they

22     were disseminating and distributing weapons, and also even before this

23     date, that they had assisted in operations in certain municipalities

24     which involved Serb organs taking control.  So I believe, yes, there was

25     references of which this is one, that they wished to try and preserve

Page 21888

 1     some degree of harmony.  But I also think that concurrent with that there

 2     were -- there were examples where they were assisting, for example, in

 3     Zvornik in operations that resulted in the take-over of those

 4     municipalities, Krupa being another one, and --

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Was Zvornik your task --

 7        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, I cannot have him

10     recounting his own findings to me.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

12             Hear him out and then you can ask the question.

13             Please continue.

14             THE WITNESS:  I hope I've made my point there, Your Honour.  I

15     think there was this twin-track policy and, in fact, I don't deny that

16     there were JNA references, in fact I quote some of them about this desire

17     to reduce tensions.  And it also came at a time when the JNA themselves

18     were a bit unclear as to what was going to happen to them, at least

19     formally.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Well, you say further on in this paragraph is -- is

22     that the people were afraid, panic-stricken, and that they were already

23     leaving certain territories.  And you say further on:

24             [In English] "The 1st Krajina Corps reported that the population

25     were fearful and apprehensive and that pressure to move out from these

Page 21889

 1     areas was growing."

 2             [Interpretation] Did you locate where this pressure was coming

 3     from?

 4        A.   No, I didn't.  This was a reference from the 1st Krajina Corps.

 5     It may well have been the statement you made earlier on -- could have

 6     been one of them -- one of the types of statements that were adding to

 7     the pressure along with others, not just yourself.  But I'm sure that

 8     there were many statements going around that certainly added to the

 9     tensions, both locally and at a high level.  But I didn't look into the

10     details.  All I'm doing is reporting what the Krajina Corps put in their

11     daily combat reports, that tension was rising, people were fearful, and

12     it was clear that they were apprehensive maybe in what had happened in

13     some municipalities in other places, that they were -- that they were

14     fearful about what was going to happen.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You see, in the footnote here, 520, you rely on

16     document 9417, so let us have a look at that.  Let us see page 3 in

17     e-court, otherwise it's page 2 in the document itself.  9417, that's the

18     65 ter number.  While we're waiting for that, Mr. Brown, this is what I'm

19     saying to you, that they are reporting that the pressure to have people

20     moved out comes from the persons who actually want to move out and to

21     change their residence.  Did you understand that?  It's not that somebody

22     else is exerting pressure against them to move out; they are seeking this

23     themselves, as we saw in the telegram a moment ago, they're asking to

24     leave.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2, please, of this document --

Page 21890

 1     in e-court it's 3 actually.  Because there is a empty one.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you answer that?  Did you notice that this pressure for

 4     moving out came from those who wanted to move out?

 5        A.   I don't read it like that, Mr. Karadzic.  People presumably were

 6     moving out because they were frightened, and for people to move out of

 7     their homes and even contemplate the issue of moving out of their homes,

 8     there presumably must have been a significant threat to them.  This

 9     document comes already after certain municipalities had been taken over.

10     For example, Prijedor on the 30th of April, this comes a week after that.

11     It comes a week or a few days after artillery was moved into Prijedor.

12     And incidents were happening, and it may well have been that what was

13     going on and what they expected and what they felt was going to happen in

14     those areas led them to be fearful and led them to contemplate moving out

15     of their areas.  And they may well have been aware of what happened in

16     Krupa and what had happened in other parts of Bosnia such as --

17        Q.   Sir, sir, it's not for you to say maybe.  Your report is full of

18     maybes.  I am asking you whether you see what it says here, the

19     population is fearful, panic-stricken, there is a great deal of

20     emigration to other parts of the country, I don't think that this has

21     been translated properly.  It says many people are fleeing.  The original

22     says there is a great deal of emigration within the country, people going

23     to other parts of the country, regardless of the moral and political

24     aspect of why people are fleeing from their homes I want to make this

25     distinction for this Trial Chamber whether somebody comes to other

Page 21891

 1     people's homes telling them to leave or whether people are trying to

 2     leave out of fear.  I, as the Defence here, need to make this

 3     distinction.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Dr. Karadzic, you're spending a lot of

 5     your time making comment.  If you need to make a distinction, you must

 6     turn it into a proper question.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just briefly, Your Honours, I object to

 9     Mr. Karadzic yelling at the witness:

10             "Sir, sir, it's not for you to say maybe ..."

11             The witness is trying to answer questions posed to him and I

12     think is doing his best -- well, I'll just cut it at that.  He shouldn't

13     tell the witness what words he's allowed to use in his answers.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

15             What is your question?  I think you are coming to a close,

16     but ...

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

18     admitted?  If I'm getting close to the end, I'm saying that this witness

19     has not been cross-examined.  Out of 12 topics, I've done -- I've dealt

20     with only one.  Could this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1940, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask the Trial Chamber whether

24     I can offer all the documents mentioned by this witness in his report

25     through a bar table motion, the documents that have not been tendered by

Page 21892

 1     the Prosecution?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would have no objection to that, Your Honours.

 4     It might be useful in your review of the report.  And as I said earlier,

 5     I would -- plan to discuss with Mr. Robinson but I haven't, but we have a

 6     hyperlinked chart of all of the footnotes, which also has the

 7     65 ter numbers, so that if you have the report open and you're next to

 8     your computer, you can click on the footnote and read the document.  And

 9     we --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  I was just going to say, it could take us a bit of

12     time, but we could also, because we've done that in the past, hyperlink

13     the actual report.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, how does it fit to a bar table motion?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, we -- to comply with your

16     requirements for a bar table motion, we should demonstrate how each of

17     the documents are relevant and how they fit into our case.  I have to say

18     that as Defence counsel I seriously question the wisdom of offering all

19     of the exhibits of this witness.  I can see why the Prosecution would

20     want to do that.  I really can't see why the Defence would want to do

21     that, but perhaps that's something we could discuss between myself and

22     Dr. Karadzic, and if a bar table motion is appropriate we can make one in

23     writing.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             I note the time, Mr. Karadzic.  How much more would you need to

Page 21893

 1     conclude your cross-examination?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, of course I'd need another

 3     two days at least, but can I have at least one hour to give one example

 4     per topic at least?  Because there are many topics here, 10 or 12 of

 5     them, and I didn't have enough time to deal with any of them.  As for

 6     documents, I don't want to tender everything.  I want to tender what the

 7     witness mentioned, what the witness relied upon, and what the OTP did not

 8     tender.  I would like to make a selection out of those documents.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  We will take a break now for 25 minutes, and then,

11     Mr. Karadzic, you will have half an hour to conclude, just that.

12             We will resume at five past 4.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Brown, you've just mentioned me as the author of certain

19     ideas that you refer to as criminal and that have to do with these

20     movements.  Actually, I have to find this other thing now, the relations

21     between the centre of Republika Srpska, Pale, and the RK Krajina.  For

22     example, in paragraph 1.113 on page 50 did you mention all your

23     references on the basis of which you created this paragraph, as it were,

24     185, 186, 187?

25             JUDGE KWON:  You ask a question one at a time.

Page 21894

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Well, I've heralded the topic as such and now I'm asking about

 3     the paragraph.  Did you create this paragraph on the basis of the

 4     documents mentioned in these three footnotes or is there something else

 5     that you have not mentioned?

 6        A.   It's a long time since the wrote the report, Mr. Karadzic.  I'm

 7     not sure if there were other references, but these are the references

 8     I've cited.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And you thought it was sufficient to quote a

10     newspaper article from "Kozarski Vjesnik" and two reports of the

11     1st Corps; right?

12        A.   Well, the documents were cited, Mr. Karadzic.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 1.114 you also speak of the Crisis Staff

14     and you mention two sources, 188 and 189, those are the footnote numbers;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes, that is right, Mr. Karadzic.

17        Q.   Did you think that that was sufficient for you, to have an

18     overall insight into the work of the Crisis Staff and its links with the

19     army?

20        A.   The report wasn't written in order to have an insight into the

21     work of the ARK Crisis Staff.  This section was part of a wider section

22     that I believed that the ARK, like at municipal level in the Krajina

23     there was a relationship, a close relationship, between the military and

24     the civilian authorities.  And also that the police were represented

25     usually as well.

Page 21895

 1        Q.   Please look at the next paragraph, 1.115.  This is what you say:

 2             [In English] "There was a concerted effort by the 1st

 3     Krajina Corps to establish and maintain links with the civilian

 4     authorities at all levels.  On the 7th of May, 1992, some weeks prior to

 5     many of the military attacks in the Krajina municipalities, a meeting was

 6     held concerning the future status of the JNA involving both military

 7     commanders of the corps and the civilian authorities."

 8             [Interpretation] So you considered this to be something

 9     undesirable or something that is proof of a crime, the fact that the army

10     and the civilian authorities were in contact; right?

11        A.   I don't make the assertion of either.  The reason I added this

12     in - and there are many other documents too - was that it seemed to me

13     that the military and the civilian authorities did work closely together

14     and that that happened at the senior level with General Talic but it also

15     happened significantly at the lower level with his brigades and

16     subordinate brigades and there were other documents or a few documents,

17     actually, that I think add to that assertion.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at 1.105 and from 118 to 119, where you

19     talk about the relationship between the government and -- or rather,

20     Prime Minister Djeric and the instructions on the work of the

21     Crisis Staffs of Serb people in the municipalities.  I don't need to read

22     it out, so what you mention there are the first three paragraphs; right?

23     And then in paragraph 1.107 you say:

24             [In English] "An important factor in the implementation of the

25     overall policies of the SDS and the functioning of the self-proclaimed

Page 21896

 1     Bosnian Serb organs on the ground."

 2             [Interpretation] And you link this to a common purpose, and so on

 3     and so forth.  So you think that Crisis Staffs are an example of how SDS

 4     policy was pursued and that Branko Djeric's instruction is a telling

 5     example of that; right?  P3439, that's the number of this document

 6     otherwise.

 7        A.   Yes, I do think the Crisis Staffs were an important body and that

 8     they brought together the military and police and the civilian organs,

 9     certainly at local level.  And I think there is documentation that would

10     highlight that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  However, on the basis of this paragraph you claim

12     that they were supposed to carry out instructions from the central levels

13     of government; right?  And that's the purpose of these instructions;

14     right?

15        A.   I believe that there is enough documentation to show that the

16     Crisis Staffs responded to tiers above municipality.  And I think if you

17     take, for example, the issue -- one of the municipalities like

18     Sanski Most, which the documentation is quite significant, you can see

19     the documentation flows down to the Crisis Staff, decisions are taken at

20     the Crisis Staff certainly in relation to disarmament operations, those

21     are passed on, there are decisions taken in order to -- for example, in

22     Sanski Most for Colonel Andzic and Colonel Basara to conduct operations.

23     We saw the document yesterday or previously --

24        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just asking you to stick to the document,

25     Djeric's document that you referred to.  You mentioned this document as

Page 21897

 1     an example of the link between the central organs and the municipalities;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.  It's not the only one.  I think the Subotic

 4     instruction is also another example.  And I'm not saying these are the

 5     only mechanisms.  Certainly when the army was established, there seems to

 6     be meetings at the senior level, directives used.  So I'm not saying it

 7     is the only one but I do think the Crisis Staffs -- and in fact, the

 8     combat analysis readiness report makes specific reference to that, the

 9     importance of Crisis Staffs.

10        Q.   Please, why then did you omit paragraphs 9, 10, and 13?  Why

11     didn't you draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to that?  P34359, we

12     haven't got much time, but let's have that called up and let's have a

13     look at this, 9, 10, and 13.  It require the municipal authorities to do

14     certain things that you omitted to mention to the Trial Chamber.  Is that

15     because you worked for the OTP?  Is that fair towards the Defence and

16     towards the Trial Chamber?

17        A.   Can I see what paragraphs 9, 10, and 13 are?

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll upload -- let us upload it.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Towards the bottom we have item 9

20     in the English and in the Serbian as well, I believe.  The original

21     states that the Crisis Staff is under an obligation to create working

22     conditions for the international peace and relief organisations and to

23     ensure an unimpeded transport of relief convoys to their destinations.

24     Perhaps "shall provide" may be slightly confusing.  [In English]

25     Translation.  [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in English so

Page 21898

 1     as to be able to see item 10:

 2             "The non-fighting population and the wounded must be treated in

 3     the most humane fashion and in accordance with the ICRC.  Prisoners of

 4     war also must be treated humanely and in accordance with the laws of the

 5     Serbian Republic of BiH."

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did you perhaps omit to draw the Chamber's attention to it as

 8     part of your discussion of this document?

 9        A.   I think I referred in the report itself that the document

10     wasn't -- also my report wasn't a study in all components and actions of

11     the Crisis Staff and that the reference to the Djeric instruction was

12     more of a general one, making the point that Crisis Staffs existed and

13     that they were to involve the issue of the military working in

14     co-operation with the civilian authorities.  I didn't omit that.  On

15     reflection I might well have included certainly number 10.  I might well

16     have put that in a section either quoted there or I might even have

17     included it later on in the report when we're talking about issues

18     relating to prisoners of war, for example, when General Talic issued his

19     own instructions of prisoners of war.  Maybe that's an omission on my

20     part, but I don't think I was using the document particularly to

21     forensically examine every aspect of the operation of Crisis Staffs.  It

22     was more a general point.  There was others that were looking at

23     Crisis Staffs in more detail than I was.  It was used in relation to

24     identifying the Crisis Staffs that existed, that the militaries were to

25     be a component of that, and, in fact, I would argue were a significant

Page 21899

 1     feature certainly in that first phase that the combat analysis readiness

 2     report discusses.

 3        Q.   In any case, paragraph 1.105 contains part of this document and

 4     the paragraphs referred to are not mentioned or commented upon; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   The references are part of the document, yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Next you conclude that it was the policy of the top

 8     political leadership was disseminated to lower levels and look at 1.118

 9     of your report.  There you seem to suggest quite the opposite.  It is

10     paragraph 1.118:

11             [In English] "Notwithstanding all the positive tendencies in the

12     Bosnian Krajina are its leadership in its public statements and concrete

13     political actions maintain an independent attitude toward the SR BH

14     government and there are attempts to interfere in commanding the corps

15     and some of its structures."

16             [Interpretation] This document is dated the 14th of June,

17     correct, and you took note of it; correct?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 1.119, you discuss a political struggle

20     between Banja Luka and the Pale government which was evident in the

21     summer months of 1992.  It goes on to say that:

22             "...  certain manifestations of which were reflected within the

23     military reports at the time."

24             Correct?

25        A.   Yes, there is a small number of references and I thought they

Page 21900

 1     were important enough to put in my analysis.  There weren't that many,

 2     however, and there were meetings, at least references to meetings that

 3     General Talic took part in, in order to try and resolve some of those

 4     differences.  So I hope that I'm up front in the report in presenting

 5     that there was this issue.  I do not see, however, that as somehow being

 6     so serious that the Krajina Corps was unable to function or the

 7     Krajina Corps was stopped in carrying out the tasks that it did.  But the

 8     report does make reference to the fact that there were -- there are --

 9     there seem to be tensions at times.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In any case, you noted that the Krajina was quite

11     isolated until September 1992 and that the corridor was unsafe.  It

12     wasn't made safe until early July and that the telephone network

13     functioned poorly; is that correct?

14        A.   Well, maybe the last point.  I'm not sure when you say the

15     telephone network functioned poorly, I don't think that happened.

16     Certainly the combat analysis readiness report doesn't say that.  They

17     certainly utilised the telephone very much as a means when other military

18     means were not functioning.  So I would disagree with you there.  I

19     wouldn't argue that the Krajina was necessarily isolated until

20     September 1992 at all.  It is my understanding that the corridor was

21     taken or some of the municipalities were taken over in March, late March

22     I believe, which in essence meant that road through the Krajina towards

23     Semberija and to Serbia was severed, but that it was re-established in

24     late July and 1992 after the successful completion of

25     Operation Corridor 92.  The Krajina also had an air bridge.  There was an

Page 21901

 1     ability to get people to Banja Luka.  I'm assuming that if they hadn't

 2     been able to get to Banja Luka the 16th Assembly Session wouldn't have

 3     taken place there.  I believe there were helicopter flights being able to

 4     go in and out there.  The airport was not -- was not put out of action,

 5     and I believe that there were flights in and out of Banja Luka.  So it

 6     wasn't completely isolated, but I do take your point certainly that the

 7     road connection through the Krajina was severed for a period but that it

 8     was achieved -- reconnected after Operation Corridor and then it was

 9     expanded in -- from late July all the way through into September/October

10     time.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we next look at 65 ter 428.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   It is a document that the Prosecution intended to tender

15     alongside your report.  It is 65 ter 428, page 3; page 3, item 2,

16     "counter-intelligence information."  It's probably in e-court.  It is

17     item 2.  It's probably page 3 in e-court.  The title should be

18     "counter-intelligence."  Yes, it is towards the bottom.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Karadzic be

20     asked to wait for the English page to appear.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   "Certain officials of the ARK are working intensively on the

23     creation of the so-called state of Krajina, which could have negative

24     consequences for" -- I was asked by the interpreters to wait.  Yes, item

25     2, counter-intelligence information:

Page 21902

 1             "Certain officials of the ARK are working intensively on the

 2     creation of the so-called state of Krajina, which could have negative

 3     consequences for the unity of the Serbian people in BH and the struggle

 4     they have waged."

 5             Did you have this document when you drew up your report, given

 6     the fact that it is on the OTP list?

 7        A.   I do not remember seeing this document, Mr. Karadzic.  It may

 8     well be one that was obtained after I wrote the report.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have this admitted?  Let's

11     have 65 ter 432, another OTP document that they will seek to tender

12     through you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm not objecting.  I'm not sure exactly what

15     Mr. Karadzic means when he says 65/428 is something we intended to tender

16     alongside his report.  I'm just not sure what he means.  I tendered what

17     I intended to tender.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             What did you mean, Mr. Karadzic, by saying that this is the

20     document Prosecution wanted to tender?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They included this document as a

22     reference concerning this witness.  It was probably part of a more

23     comprehensive list, but in any case it was on the list as 65 ter 428.  It

24     was supposed to be a document that should be noted.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let's proceed.  I don't see this -- those

Page 21903

 1     items in the list of the documents to be used in his direct.  We'll admit

 2     65 ter 428.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1941, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Have a look at this document.  Can we go to page 3, item 3.

 6     Situation in the territory is discussed.  It is stated that there was a

 7     struggle for power in the various organs of the SR BH which has an impact

 8     on the military structures.  There are also parallel ministries of the

 9     Serbian Republic of BiH and the Autonomous Region of the Krajina.  Did

10     you make note of that?

11        A.   I'm not sure.  I'd have to go to my document footnotes, but as I

12     said I don't -- I do make reference to the fact that there were tensions

13     and difficulties.  I think the ARK certainly, for example, wanted to have

14     some unity with the Serb areas in Croatia and there are other issues that

15     they may well have been in disagreement with, and I've made reference in

16     the report that there were these tensions.  But many of them seem to be

17     internal, as they say, jockeying for influence.  But I didn't see them

18     somehow impacting on what the Krajina Corps was doing.  And, in fact,

19     General Talic was active in trying to resolve those differences by having

20     meetings and -- there are referenced in the -- in some of his documents.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit D1942.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Please have a look at paragraph 1.124, where you say that you

Page 21904

 1     were aware of the fact that local authorities in certain municipalities

 2     had the ambition of complementing their power by controlling certain

 3     military instances in the municipality.  Talic, it seems, was asked to

 4     exert influence through the ARK government to exclude such extremist

 5     elements.  Kljuc is mentioned specifically.  You can see here that the

 6     army structures of Kljuc are asking to influence local politicians

 7     through the ARK government so as not to try to control their regional

 8     military unit; is that correct?

 9        A.   It might take a bit of time to go through the documents and the

10     reports, but my understanding of what happened was that there were

11     tensions in Kljuc and that I think some Muslims were killed or a Muslim

12     was killed and there was a request to Talic -- or Talic sent a request to

13     the ARK, in essence for them to use their authority to somehow, I think,

14     avoid misunderstandings and conflicts with the JNA in that area.  I think

15     Talic clearly indicated through that request that the ARK were of some

16     significance and could help there.  And I think there was also pressure

17     to use the JNA unit in Kljuc, so he was trying to resolve that through

18     the organs of authority.  I believe that the same unit that was there at

19     the beginning of the May was actually the unit that was involved in the

20     take-over or operations, disarmament operations, at the end of May.  So

21     the same unit that they were talking about I think at the beginning of

22     May was actually the same unit that ended up conducting those operations

23     at the end of that month.  But for me to get it exactly right, I'd have

24     to go back to my footnotes.  But clearly General Talic felt that in order

25     to resolve whatever pressures were there, the ARK were the body that he

Page 21905

 1     should go to.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please conclude in three minutes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Sir, this had to do with my question, whereby I said that you

 6     were obviously aware that there were autonomous streaks at municipal

 7     levels and that each administrative unit wanted to have an army of its

 8     own.  In any case, you seem to have expanded on it.  Look at your

 9     paragraph 2.24, where you -- it is page 69 of your report.  You noted

10     that until the VRS was established, units functioned on the principle of

11     self-organisation.  Correct?

12             [In English] "Development" [Interpretation] You quote there.  [In

13     English] "Important development in the first period from April the 1st to

14     the 15th of June was the self-organising of municipal and other regional

15     units on the basis of Territorial Defence ..." and so on and so on.

16        A.   Under the patriotic influence of the SDS, yes, it does note.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Yes.  Let me ask you this:  Did you know that

18     under the Tito's doctrine of an armed population, municipalities were

19     sovereign in terms of defence and that the municipal president was the

20     supreme commander of the forces in his territory as well as that there

21     were municipal units in which everyone was obliged to fight whether they

22     had or had not received orders to that effect?

23        A.   I'm aware of the Law on All People's Defence.  I'm aware that

24     people in a time of crisis could be mobilised into the

25     Territorial Defence and it was the responsibility of all citizens to

Page 21906

 1     contribute to the defence of the state and -- but I do not believe that

 2     that had much, if any, of a bearing on the situation that I saw in the

 3     Krajina in 1992.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me this:  Did you know that the ARK in the fall

 5     of 1992 was abolished and that all regional autonomies ceased to exist,

 6     since it was concluded that the central state organs did not have

 7     sufficient influence over their functioning?

 8        A.   I'm aware at some stage in late 1992 the ARK did cease to

 9     function.  Why that happened or what negotiations went on was not part of

10     this report.

11        Q.   It was done by changing the constitution, Mr. Brown.  You

12     probably remember.  Did you go through the papers we provided to you

13     which are actually corrections and did you enter the corrections in the

14     errata sheet presented to this Chamber, particularly because specific

15     items were pointed out to you in previous cases, namely, these are

16     paragraphs 1.114, 2.18, 2.24, 2.76, 1.31, 1.105, 2.5, and 2.80?

17        A.   Yes, I did, Mr. Karadzic.  I believe that was the homework that

18     Mr. Robinson gave me over the weekend.  I looked at the eight sections

19     that were given to me, and in the point number 1 which was

20     paragraph 1.114, I didn't believe there was a need to change any of the

21     report.  Paragraph 2.18, I didn't believe there was a requirement to

22     change anything in the report except that there is a misidentification of

23     an ERN number, which has not been flagged up in the two errata sheets

24     that I produced before and I'm more than happy to add a third errata

25     shirt in order to do that.  Number 3 which was paragraph 2.24 has already

Page 21907

 1     been changed in errata sheet number 2.  2.76 was a reference in relation

 2     to -- I believe Mr. Ackerman highlighted that there was no attack in

 3     Celinac.  I disagree with Mr. Ackerman's point.  However, on looking at

 4     the actual language I used in the document, I'm more than happy to amend

 5     that to read "military operations" rather than "attack."  There are two

 6     references in the report which highlight that there were operations in

 7     Celinac.  And so my point, I believe, stands.  I don't think Mr. Ackerman

 8     was correct to say there were no operations in Celinac, I believe there

 9     were, and there's two references in there.  But I'm more than happy to

10     provide a slight modification to the language of one of the sentences in

11     there.  In paragraph -- point number 6, which is paragraph 1.105,

12     Ms. Loukas indicated or put the point that she believed there was a

13     deliberate omission by me to paragraph 10 of the Crisis Staff document

14     which related to the issues of prisoners of war.  And I indicated that I

15     was using selected issues relating to military components of the

16     Crisis Staff, but I'm more than happy to include paragraph 10 in an

17     errata sheet.  But I don't think that it substantively changes my point

18     about Crisis Staffs.  Point number 7 which was paragraph 2.5, there was

19     an issue about where I put the footnote reference.  I put the footnote

20     reference at the end of the sentence and there was an argument that the

21     reference only reflected the securing of key facilities in the sentence,

22     and the sentence itself was, I think I said, securing territories, key

23     facilities, and other aspect.  And I think that the Judge at the time

24     said would it be more appropriate to put the footnote in the middle of

25     the sentence on the issue of key -- securing key facilities, to which the

Page 21908

 1     footnote referred.  Again, I don't think it's substantively changes the

 2     comment that I made, but I'm more than prepared to change the footnote

 3     rather than changing the footnote to the right part of the sentence to

 4     actually include references to the securing of territories -- in essence,

 5     to expand the footnote that I think it makes it more clear.  I don't

 6     believe that it substantively changes anything in the report and I think

 7     it was maybe a rather administrative point.  Point 8 which is paragraph

 8     2.80 has already been amended in relation to the errata sheet I pushed

 9     out on the 11th of November, so it has already been included in an errata

10     sheet.

11             So in essence, I have looked at the documents.  In two of them

12     they have already been amended in an errata sheet, a previous errata

13     sheet.  One of them I would argue needs no change whatsoever.  And the

14     remaining five, I believe, are of a minor nature that do not necessarily

15     require substantive changes in any of the analysis, but I'm more than

16     happy and have already done -- provided or written up a third errata

17     sheet putting those changes in, which I'm more than happy to submit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  At this stage we are -- probably need to admit your

19     hallmark sheet into evidence, Mr. Robinson.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes --

21             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that has been disclosed to the

22     Prosecution.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  It has, Your Honour, and there are -- no

24     objection.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  We'll upload it into e-court, yes.

Page 21909

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give that number.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Excuse me, what about 131, you skipped that one.

 4             Did you change that one also?

 5        A.   Yes, I changed that and -- of a minor nature and I'm happy to put

 6     it into the -- a third errata sheet.  The problem with 131 was that there

 7     was one footnote reference -- there was a large quote and there actually

 8     was one footnote reference, but actually the quote comes from two

 9     documents.  And in the transcript they provided one of -- the extra

10     document but in the wrong place.  So it is an administrative issue and

11     what I've done on this new errata sheet is to clear that up.  1.31 should

12     have two footnote references, not one, and they highlighted one of them

13     during the transcript but didn't highlight the second one.  So it doesn't

14     substantively change the quote, but actually it's from two documents, not

15     one.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll give the number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1943, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two more short questions,

19     Mr. Brown, and I wish to inform the Trial Chamber that I haven't had time

20     to deal with the credibility or the qualifications or other

21     organisational matters --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, unacceptable comment.  Please continue

23     with your two last questions.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   First question:  Do you agree, as an officer and an analyst, that

Page 21910

 1     it's the duty of a senior officer to notice, make note of, and report on

 2     the mistakes committed by subordinate?

 3        A.   As a former soldier, yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Second question:  Your complete analysis comprises

 5     about 500 paragraphs and many footnotes.  All that you have learned and

 6     put down as -- as Serbian misdeeds, have you learned all that from the

 7     documents of the 1st Krajina Corps?

 8        A.   I think I've highlighted that earlier, Mr. Karadzic.  The

 9     documents I predominantly used were documents contemporaneous,

10     1st Krajina Corps documents, written at the time; a number of police

11     documents also written at the time; a small number of media reports from

12     the time, too; and one or two videos.  But the overwhelming majority of

13     the documents used in the report come from the archive of the 1st Krajina

14     Corps.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

17             Do you have re-examination, Mr. Nicholls?

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  No questions, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Well, then, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Brown.

20     Thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you for your patience, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  Please have a safe journey

23     back home.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 21911

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, would you suggest that we take a short

 2     break or is it okay to continue outright?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm happy to continue, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Then please call your next witness.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're bringing in the

 6     witness, I just want to advise the Trial Chamber yesterday the Appeals

 7     Chamber made a decision concerning delayed disclosure of Witness KDZ320

 8     and referred the matter to the Trial Chamber and I want to --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, we are aware of it.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  I figured you were.  But I wanted to let you know

11     that we would not be filing any further pleadings, but we ask you to take

12     into consideration what we filed before the Appeals Chamber.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Would you make the solemn declaration, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  KDZ039

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Before we begin to hear your evidence, there is an

25     administrative matter that I'd like to deal with.  So in order to do

Page 21912

 1     that, we shall move into private session briefly.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 21913

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

12                           Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

13        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   You can hear me okay?

16        A.   I can.

17        Q.   I just want to remind you of one thing before we start, and that

18     is that you should not use your own name, please.  So don't say your own

19     name.

20        A.   All right.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So as I indicated, Mr. Witness, you will be

22     called -- we will refer to you as simply Witness or Witness number 39.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:

25        Q.   And the other thing I wanted to advise you, sir, I know you've

Page 21914

 1     had a leg injury and the past and that sometimes your leg causes you pain

 2     if you sit a long time.  So please do not feel self-conscious, if you

 3     begin to be in pain and you need to stand up and walk around, please just

 4     let me know.

 5        A.   All right, Your Honours.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  The first thing I would like to do is bring up

 7     65 ter 90301, a pseudonym sheet.  It should not be broadcast, please.

 8        Q.   Now, sir, up on a screen is going to come a piece of paper with

 9     your name written on it.  Don't read it out loud.  Just look at it,

10     please, and tell me, yes or no, is your name printed on that piece of

11     paper.

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, I can see my name on the screen.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we admit that under seal, please,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3938, under seal, Your Honours.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   Now, sir, as I explained to you, as has been done before, we're

20     not going to ask you all the same questions today about your experiences.

21     What we're going to do is seek to put into evidence your testimony in the

22     Popovic trial.  So I'm going to ask you a couple questions about that.

23     Number one:  Do you remember that you testified in that case, the Popovic

24     case, in 2007?

25        A.   No, I don't remember, but I'm sure I did.

Page 21915

 1        Q.   Okay.  Well, you reviewed your testimony from that case.  Do you

 2     remember --

 3        A.   Yes, I did review it.

 4        Q.   When you listened to that testimony, when you testified in the

 5     Popovic case, can you confirm that when you listened to it you didn't

 6     hear any mistakes, that the testimony -- that the record was accurate?

 7        A.   Yes, it was accurate.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And can you please tell the Trial Chamber, if you

 9     were asked the same questions again today, would your answers be the

10     same?

11        A.   The answers to the same questions would be the same.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  With that, Your Honours, I would seek to tender

14     22402A under seal, which is the testimony in the Popovic case from

15     November 1st and 2nd, 2007; as well as 22402B, which is the public

16     transcript.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Both versions will be admitted.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 22402A will be Exhibit P3939 under seal,

20     and 65 ter 22402B will be Exhibit P3940.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, before I ask you any questions I am going to

24     read a brief summary of your evidence and then I'll ask you some

25     questions.

Page 21916

 1        A.   All right.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  The witness was born in a small hamlet in the

 3     municipality of Srebrenica.  He grew up in Srebrenica municipality,

 4     raised his family there, and lived there until 11 July 1995.  At about

 5     5.00 p.m. that day he returned from his work gathering hay and he heard

 6     that Srebrenica had fallen.  He heard from a neighbour that someone from

 7     civil protection had come and said that the old people and people with

 8     disabilities should go to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari and that the

 9     younger men, military-aged men, should try to save themselves by going

10     through the woods.

11             He set off for the UNPROFOR base with his wife, his daughter, his

12     daughter-in-law, and his granddaughter, and because of his bad leg going

13     through the hills he went on a horse.  The witness and his family arrived

14     in Potocari sometime after night had fallen and saw that there were

15     already a lot of people there.  The witness and his family spent the

16     night of 11-12 July in the parking-lot of the Sacmara factory near the

17     UNPROFOR base, and this parking-lot was filled with other people who had

18     come there.

19             The next morning on 12 July he heard that transportation to Tuzla

20     had been organised.  And as he waited, he saw Serb soldiers coming

21     towards the factories near the UNPROFOR base and he saw that they were

22     setting fire to haystacks as they approached.  At about 2.00 p.m. the

23     first buses and trucks arrived.  He went to the main road in Potocari,

24     where he saw barricades had been set up.  And as the narrowing roadway

25     led to waiting buses and trucks, he saw UNPROFOR soldiers lined up.  And

Page 21917

 1     further down the witness saw Serb soldiers in camouflage uniforms lined

 2     up near the buses and trucks.

 3             He walked towards the buses and trucks with his family, hoping to

 4     get on one, but the witness testified that he did not even get close to

 5     the buses.  As he tried to approach the buses with his family, a Serb

 6     soldier took him by the shoulder and told him, "Go to the left."  He was

 7     separated from his family at this point.  He was taken aside and ordered

 8     to join a group of other elderly men who had also been singled out

 9     previously.  He saw other men continuing to be separated from their

10     families, and he was detained with about 20 other elderly men at this

11     time guarded by some Serb soldiers in camouflage uniforms who had rifles.

12             These soldiers escorted the witness and the other men to an

13     unfinished house near the main road.  And as more and more prisoners

14     arrived, they filled up the room where the witness was held so that some

15     of the prisoners had to sit outside.  At some point the witness remembers

16     General Mladic spoke to the prisoners and told them that he needed 180

17     men for exchange for captured Serbs.  All of the prisoners taken to this

18     unfinished house were elderly or disabled, in similar condition to the

19     witness at the time.  Some had walking sticks.  And during the four or so

20     hours that they were held at the house, the men were not given food or

21     water.

22             Later that day, 12 July, as it was starting to get dark, as the

23     witness recalls, the men were put on two buses that were filled to

24     capacity, there was standing room only.  They were driven to Bratunac,

25     and there they were met by 10 or 15 Serb soldiers in front of an

Page 21918

 1     abandoned warehouse that the witness noticed was near a school they

 2     passed.  He later learned that that school in Bratunac was called the

 3     Vuk Karadzic school.  He and the others were taken inside the warehouse

 4     and made to sit down as the entrance was guarded.  Men continued to be

 5     brought to the warehouse until about midnight and it was full.  According

 6     to the witness's estimate, there were 400 men held there.  They were in

 7     similar condition to him, mainly elderly men or men with disabilities.

 8     They were kept in suffocating heat, it was overcrowded, and they weren't

 9     given any food or water.  When they complained, they were threatened or

10     their complaints were actually met with violence.

11             Throughout that night of 12 July, Serb soldiers took about

12     40 prisoners in total from the warehouse, calling people out.  He could

13     hear blows being struck, moaning, screaming after the men were taken

14     outside.  Some of these men were returned to the room with blood on them,

15     and the witness remembers that five men who had been brought out and

16     returned died during the night.  The witness recalls two particular

17     prisoners being taken out of the warehouse.  The first, Ibran Mustafic,

18     did not come back.  The witness thought that Ibran Mustafic had been

19     murdered; however, sometime later after escaping to Muslim-held

20     territory, he subsequently learned that this man had not been killed.

21     The second man, Hamed Efendic, was taken out.  The witness heard shots

22     and he heard somebody outside saying, "You can drag him away.  He's

23     finished.  He's dead."

24             The next morning, 13 of July, the prisoners were given water.

25     They were allowed to remove the dead from the warehouse.  The witness did

Page 21919

 1     not take part in this removal of the dead prisoners, but those who did

 2     when they returned described seeing a pile of bodies behind the

 3     warehouse.  And also that morning, the Serb soldiers demanded that the

 4     prisoners there surrender their valuables, their money, and their

 5     personal property and their ID.  During the day until they were taken

 6     away, soldiers continued calling prisoners out of the warehouse, beating

 7     and killing them.  The witness himself personally witnessed one man being

 8     killed by the soldiers guarding them.  He saw this prisoner being hit

 9     with an iron bar by one soldier and then saw another soldier strike the

10     prisoners in the back with an axe.  In the witness's estimate, this is

11     during the day of the 13 July, about another 40 men were killed.

12             And now moving to the evening of the 13th of July and the

13     transportation to Orahovac.  On the evening of the 13th of July, the

14     witness recalls Mladic coming to the warehouse and telling the prisoners

15     that they would be exchanged.  At that time the prisoners were counted

16     and there were 296 of them.  Soon after, six buses arrived and the men,

17     the prisoners, were told to board them.  Each bus was guarded by a

18     soldier with a rifle, automatic rifle.  As far as the timing, it was

19     light when the prisoners boarded the buses but they didn't leave right

20     away.  They stayed on the buses for some time until it was getting dark

21     and the lights came on in Bratunac.  The convoy of buses set out, the

22     witness thinks, about 8.00 or 9.00 p.m. on 13 July as it was getting

23     dark.  It stopped at Drinjaca on the way and then continued and proceeded

24     north through Zvornik towards Karakaj and there made a left turn and went

25     west until they stopped at a school.  He estimated that the prisoners

Page 21920

 1     arrived at the school sometime after midnight approximately 2.00 a.m.,

 2     now the early morning hours of the 14th of July.  They were met there by

 3     10 to 15 Serb soldiers.  He and the other prisoners got off the buses and

 4     entered the school's gym.  No food or water was provided to them, and as

 5     more prisoners filled up the gym, the conditions worsened, it was hot, it

 6     was July, some men were forced to sit in other men's laps and it became

 7     suffocating.  The soldiers guarding the prisoners kept ordering them to

 8     move back, move back to make room for more prisoners and sometimes

 9     threatened to shoot them and fired over their heads in order to herd them

10     back.  One prisoner who complained about the conditions, he was taken

11     out.  The witness heard shots and the prisoner didn't come back.

12     According to his memory, the last of the prisoners arrived sometime

13     around 10.00 a.m. on the morning of 14 July.  The witness also remembers

14     that at one point General Mladic arrived to the school and told them they

15     would be taken either to Bijeljina or to Fikret Abdic, as he said.

16             Later, the prisoners started to be blindfolded, led out of the

17     gym, walked over a platform and were put on a small TAM truck.  Each

18     prisoner was given a drink of water from a little cup as he was

19     blindfolded and placed on the TAM truck.  When his turn came, the witness

20     was also boarded on a truck, a small truck, which proceeded along the

21     road for a short distance before turning off into a pasture.  And after

22     he was blindfolded, he pushed his blindfold up a little bit on his

23     forehead.  He could see that the truck was followed by an armed soldier

24     in a car.  The witness saw many bodies as the truck continued further

25     before it ultimately stopped.  And then as it continued further, he could

Page 21921

 1     see another group of bodies where the truck stopped.  Two soldiers opened

 2     the back of the truck and the prisoner and the other men were taken off

 3     and told where to stand and to keep quiet.  And the witness recalls

 4     General Mladic being present at the execution site.

 5             As soon as the truck left, the soldiers opened fire on the men

 6     standing up in the row.  The witness was not hit, but he fell to the

 7     ground as other prisoners in his group who had been shot fell on and

 8     around him.  As he lay still he saw the TAM truck return and another

 9     group of prisoners arrived.  They were taken off, lined up in four rows,

10     and shot.  The witness saw this happening over and over again as he lay

11     there.  After it became dark, prisoners were still continuing to be

12     brought to the site, and the executions continued under the lights

13     provided by two excavators which had been brought there to dig graves.

14             He continued to lie still until the last TAM truck came and left,

15     and everyone from the gym, it seemed to him, had been killed.  He called

16     out to see if any other prisoners had survived.  And only one person

17     responded and spoke up.  And together he and this other man made their

18     escape, they walked away.  In the morning they were joined by a third

19     survivor of the same execution.  These three men walked on and arrived in

20     a safe area, a safe territory for them, about 19 July 1995, a Wednesday.

21     That's the end of the summary.

22        Q.   Sir, I have just a few questions for you now.  Okay?

23        A.   Okay.  Go ahead.

24        Q.   Now, you heard my summary.  Without saying the name of your

25     village, is it right that you were born and grew up in Srebrenica

Page 21922

 1     municipality?

 2        A.   Yes, I was born there.

 3        Q.   Please wait for my question to finish so that we have a clear

 4     transcript.  Okay?

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6        Q.   And you were married and you had children in Srebrenica?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Please tell the Court, why did you leave Srebrenica in July 1995?

 9     What made you leave where you'd been born and lived your whole life?

10        A.   Because our local commune was shelled all day and the mosque was

11     also pulled down.  It was totally destroyed.  And the minaret was

12     demolished.  There was so many shells that people were hiding in

13     river-beds.  And when it stopped in the afternoon, I went to gather hay.

14     There were no shots to be heard.  When there was the news that Srebrenica

15     had fallen and that we had to go to the UNPROFOR base because Srebrenica

16     would be taken by Serb soldiers and they would kill whoever would remain

17     behind in the village.  That's why we had to leave forcibly, otherwise we

18     would be killed.  A couple of elderly people stayed behind because they

19     had nobody to escort them.  They were all killed.  They never made it to

20     Tuzla.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Just a couple more questions now because, as I

22     said, we're putting in your other testimony.  I want to move now to the

23     later part of what happened to you when you were held in the school after

24     having been taken away from Bratunac.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I please have 65 ter 03199 on the screen,

Page 21923

 1     e-court page 140.  And those books have been distributed, Your Honour, in

 2     hard copy.

 3        Q.   All right, sir, please take a look at that photo in front of you

 4     and tell me if you can see it clearly.

 5        A.   Yes, I can see it clearly.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Do you recognise the place in this photo?  Can you tell us

 7     what we see here?

 8        A.   I can see a school and this gymnasium where I was.

 9        Q.   And could you indicate, if you can on this photo, if you're able

10     to, the area where the TAM trucks were parked when you were taken out of

11     the gym to be taken to the execution site.

12        A.   Here, and this is where we entered the gymnasium.  There's a door

13     there.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.  Could somebody please help the witness

15     to mark.

16        Q.   Now, sir, if you could just draw -- wait a sec -- wait for my

17     question.

18        A.   All right.

19        Q.   If you could just draw a circle in the general area where you

20     remember the trucks parking, the TAM trucks, when they came to take you

21     away from the school.

22        A.   Uh-huh, here.

23        Q.   Okay.  So they parked close to the door?

24        A.   There was a platform that was level with the truck 's loading

25     surface and we didn't have to climb up.  So we could walk in straight

Page 21924

 1     from this -- from the top of these stairs.

 2        Q.   Out of the door we see there into the trucks?

 3        A.   You could tell when you look at the trucks that they were empty

 4     when they arrived, and then people would get on the trucks and sit down.

 5     And it went on that way until the trucks were full.  Then -- that's when

 6     they would stop loading.  The other truck would set off and followed by a

 7     red car.  And the one guy would stick out his automatic rifle from the

 8     passenger seat through the window and said, "Shut up, don't talk, or I'll

 9     shoot you all."  The truck had a tarp all over except for the rear end

10     where it wasn't fastened, so we were able to see the red car following

11     us.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I tender that, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we ask the witness to put the date and his

15     signature as number 39 with the assistance of our usher.

16             Could you wait a minute.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  All right.  All right.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   Yes, Mr. Witness, if you could just put 24/11/11 on there and

20     then the number 39.

21        A.   You mean over here?  What time is it?

22        Q.   You don't need to put the time, it's okay.  Just 11 for the month

23     and 11 for the year.

24        A.   1700.

25        Q.   I think that's all right.  And if you could just put the

Page 21925

 1     number 39 next to there, please.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  I tender that, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3941, Your Honours.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Actually, Your Honours, we will be tendering the

 8     entire book as an exhibit later, so I'm not sure even though I just said

 9     that we need to tender that page at the moment but -- oh, he's marked it,

10     of course, so, yes, we will need to tender that.  Thank you.

11        Q.   I'd like to show you another photo now, sir, same exhibit, if we

12     could go to page 160.  All right, sir, I'll ask you the same thing.  Make

13     sure you can see it clearly.  Take a look at this photo and tell me if

14     you can tell us what we see in this photo.

15        A.   I see it clearly.

16        Q.   And do you recognise this place?

17        A.   I see the way we went.  Now, the railroad was up and we walked

18     through the underpass and then we walked across the pastures.  It should

19     have been here approximately where we were unloaded and executed, here,

20     right by the woods.  The forest was behind us.

21        Q.   All right.  Thank you, sir.  And with the pen, if you could just

22     draw an oval or a circle where you -- best you can remember you were

23     standing at this execution site when they shot at you.

24        A.   Yes.  Well, here, that's where it should be.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And again, if you could just write the date, 24/11,

Page 21926

 1     in the bottom and your number, 39.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And I wonder whether the witness can mark the road

 3     he walked through.

 4             Can you do that, Mr. Witness?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can, but I need some more

 6     here because I walked this way.  If I look at the picture now, you see, I

 7     couldn't have crossed the pastures here because it was uphill.  I could

 8     not walk uphill, so I was trying to see where it was easier to walk

 9     uphill.  So that's how I went to the end of this pasture and then I

10     started walking up.  So the woods were there, I mean the forest consisted

11     of big trees, but I was bothered by the bushes.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:

13        Q.   Okay --

14             JUDGE KWON:  The witness said the railroad was up and we walked

15     through the underpass and then we walked across the pastures, so if you

16     could clarify that.

17             So you walked through that underpass we -- which we see in this

18     picture?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             Now back to you, Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

23             I would tender that, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 21927

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, could you put number 39 as well kindly, number

 2     39.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit it as Exhibit P3942.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:

 6        Q.   Now, sir, in your statement of 21 July 1995, just a couple days

 7     after you arrived in Bosnian-held territory, you were able to name six

 8     men who'd been on the same TAM truck with you to the execution site.  If

 9     you remember the names of those six men now who you knew were on the

10     truck with you, could you please tell them to the Trial Chamber?

11        A.   Jakub Mekanic, then Ljubovic Suljo then Ismet Mehmedovic, Izet,

12     actually, then Hasib Hasanovic then Sefko Gabelic then Adil Tursunovic.

13     There were more of them, but those were the ones who were there close to

14     me.

15        Q.   And do you know, sir, did any of these men who you knew, did any

16     of them survive this execution?

17        A.   None of them survived.  The only one who survived out of the

18     thousands of us that were there was I bro Mustafic.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I don't have any more questions right now.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, we'll have a break for 25 minutes --

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  -- and after which you'll be further cross-examined

23     by Mr. Radovan Karadzic.  But before we do that, I take it there are

24     several associated exhibits to be tendered?

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's right, Your Honour.

Page 21928

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  They will be all admitted and given a number in due

 4     course.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a break for 25 minutes and resume at

 7     6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Before we begin, Mr. Witness, sir, when you answer

11     the questions put by Mr. Karadzic, please put a pause before you start

12     answering the question because both of you are speaking the same

13     language.  So we have -- in order for the answer to be correctly

14     interpreted, please wait for a moment.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

20        A.   Good afternoon.

21        Q.   Well, that was an example of how things should not be done.  You

22     should wait for the interpretation of my words to finish.

23        A.   Sorry about that.

24        Q.   Is it correct that two days after you got out into the territory

25     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina you gave one statement, and then four

Page 21929

 1     days after that yet another statement in Zivinice and in Tuzla; right?

 2        A.   I don't remember, but I did give statements, I did.  I don't

 3     remember where or when.

 4        Q.   I have to wait for your words to be interpreted as well, so you

 5     have to understand that that is why I pause.

 6             However, when you gave these statements you signed both of them;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Were you a soldier of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   However, in your first statement given on the 21st of July you

12     said that you were a civilian and that you were not engaged in a military

13     way and you said that you weren't armed either; right?

14        A.   I was not armed.  I did not have any clothes but my own and I

15     worked by the kitchen.

16        Q.   Thank you.  However, in Tuzla four days later, or rather, on the

17     22nd of July, you gave a statement in which you said that you were a

18     member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina up until the demilitarisation of

19     Srebrenica, when you handed over your weapons; right?

20        A.   I don't know what was written there.  I don't know when they

21     handed over the weapons and when demilitarisation took place, but then

22     until then I was by this kitchen.  So then when this kitchen was

23     disbanded, I was no longer there because there was no kitchen there any

24     longer.

25        Q.   What is this unit that had this kitchen that you were attached

Page 21930

 1     to?  If you think that this could identify you, we can move into private

 2     session.  Would you like to go into private session or can you tell us

 3     what unit this was where you worked at this kitchen?

 4        A.   I don't know what the name of this unit was, but it was in

 5     Suceska, the unit that was there, that's the unit that I was attached to.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Was that the 283rd or 284th?

 7        A.   I really would not know.  If that's the way it was, well then

 8     yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Was Zulfo Tursunovic the commander of that unit?

10        A.   Well, yes, that's it.  Zulfo Tursunovic was there, yes.

11        Q.   Is it correct that Zulfo Tursunovic had completed only four years

12     of elementary school education?

13        A.   That I could not tell you because I really do not know.

14        Q.   Was anybody else from your family one of his soldiers?

15        A.   Yes, for a while my son and then he went on to become a teacher

16     at school.  When the school started he was a teacher at the school.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Where were you carrying out combat operations, that

18     unit, where?

19        A.   We only defended ourselves in Suceska.  I don't know that any

20     combat operations took place anywhere.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Please don't mention the name of your hamlet because

22     Suceska is a local commune; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   How far away is Suceska from the town itself, the small town of

25     Srebrenica?

Page 21931

 1        A.   Say 14 or 15 kilometres.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  As you take the road, right, there is a road there?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, there is.

 4        Q.   Does this road go on, does it go somewhere else?

 5        A.   It goes on towards Derventa-Milici.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Was there a line of separation there or a front line?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Which brigade was facing you on the Serb side?

 9        A.   Well, that I don't know.  That's what you know.

10        Q.   Could it be the Milicka Brigade?

11        A.   Milici were the closest there, but what their name was I don't

12     know.

13        Q.   And that line was there until April or March 1993; right?

14        A.   I don't know for how long it was there, but it was there until

15     the demilitarisation and afterwards it wasn't.

16        Q.   Thank you.  However, there was still some demarcation facing the

17     Serbs?

18        A.   Well, just observing, sort of.

19        Q.   Observing, facing the Milici Brigade, well, then if there were

20     only observers there then it was easy for the Milici Brigade to walk in;

21     right?

22        A.   There was UNPROFOR; they were protecting us.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that Zulfo Tursunovic in 1995 was

24     Naser Oric's deputy and that Naser Oric was the commander of the

25     28th Division?

Page 21932

 1        A.   Now, was he his deputy, I don't know.  Naser Oric was the

 2     commander, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And how many brigades were there in that division,

 4     five brigades and one independent battalion; right?

 5        A.   That I don't know because I didn't go there and I don't know what

 6     was there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  What was Zulfo Tursunovic like in terms of his

 8     nature?  How did he treat Serbs?

 9        A.   Go to Milici and ask them how he treated them that night in 1992

10     when they were taken prisoner, and you know that full well.  They were

11     taken prisoner and they were treated like gentlemen and they were given

12     meat and they were drinking and also they were swearing at your soldiers,

13     what they did to their neighbours, and they said, "We were treated like

14     gentlemen at Zulfo's."

15        Q.   Thank you.  So you mentioned demilitarisation.  Did that actually

16     happen when Srebrenica became a protected area and was it truly

17     demilitarised?

18        A.   Well, that's what people say, that it was.  I did not go out

19     there to demilitarise it and I didn't really care about that kind of

20     thing.  You should really put that question to someone else.

21        Q.   Thank you.  That's the way it's going to be.  At the time of

22     demilitarisation, that was the so-called 8th Operative Group and after

23     demilitarisation was turned into the 28th Division; right?

24        A.   I don't know about that either.

25        Q.   All right.  Now we get to these critical events.  You say - and

Page 21933

 1     you said that today as well during this examination-in-chief - that

 2     someone came and said to you that Srebrenica had fallen or that it will

 3     fall and that those who are not combatants should go to Potocari; right?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  They said that Srebrenica had fallen.

 5        Q.   I see.  Thank you.  So could you then get to Potocari without

 6     going through Srebrenica?

 7        A.   Yes.  Because I took this other road.  I did not walk along the

 8     road.  I went over the hills.

 9        Q.   Was that longer?

10        A.   That was closer.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And how far away was the line of separation from your

12     village and from your hamlet?

13        A.   There was just this brook that separated us, and I didn't really

14     measure the distance.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see Serb soldiers on the other side of the

16     brook?

17        A.   Of course I did.  I saw as many as you want in the hills.  They

18     had three tanks, one howitzer, and a few launchers.  We saw that they had

19     that too.

20        Q.   Aha.  And you saw them -- well, I'm not talking about July now,

21     you saw them from the demilitarisation up until 1995 you saw them there;

22     right?

23        A.   I don't know about afterwards, how many of them were there, and

24     where they were, I cannot say.  I didn't really ask anyone whether there

25     was anyone out there.

Page 21934

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, you say that when you went there you saw

 2     that haystacks were on fire.  Whose haystacks were they?

 3        A.   Muslim haystacks.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And what was that used for?

 5        A.   Perhaps you can tell us that.  I wouldn't know.  It's a question

 6     for you.

 7        Q.   Not the burning of haystacks, Witness, but what was the hay used

 8     for?

 9        A.   For cattle, of course.  I was -- I thought you were asking me

10     about why you burnt them.

11        Q.   So the population there are mostly farmers?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you have cattle?

14        A.   I did.

15        Q.   What did you have, what kind of animals?

16        A.   Is it really necessary for me to say?

17        Q.   If you please.

18        A.   Two cows, about 20 sheep, and a horse.

19        Q.   What about the other people in the hamlet?

20        A.   Some had more, some had less.

21        Q.   But there wasn't a single household that did not have some farm

22     animals; correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   So the haystacks were set on fire just before the reaping season;

25     therefore, the old hay was burned?

Page 21935

 1        A.   No, it was the newly harvested hay.  And even the wheat had been

 2     reaped.

 3        Q.   Wheat, I see.  What kind of plants do you have there?

 4        A.   Corn, wheat, fruit, and tobacco.

 5        Q.   Tobacco?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Very well.  That was for your use, but did you have any surplus?

 8     Did you sell it?

 9        A.   Sell what, hay?

10        Q.   No, farm produce, milk, cheese, lamb, wheat, corn?

11        A.   I didn't sell anything.  We barely had enough for ourselves, for

12     the family.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Were there people who produced more and what did they

14     do with it?

15        A.   All refugees who came from the municipalities of Vlasenica and

16     Han Pijesak were there to be fed.  We distributed it all.  Nothing was

17     sold.  I think there were refugees from five municipalities, including

18     Bratunac.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Then you say you saw many people in Potocari.  And as

20     you said today and previously, you were taken to a building with some 40

21     or 50 men; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You say that on the 12th -- did you arrive on the 12th or on the

24     evening of the 11th?

25        A.   The evening of the 11th.

Page 21936

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On Wednesday, the 12th, the building was visited by

 2     General Mladic; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You say in one of the statements that he walked in, introduced

 5     himself, he greeted you as neighbours, he said that you knew who he was,

 6     and then he asked you what were you going to do with Alija.  And he

 7     suggested that you join Fikret Abdic; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber who Fikret Abdic is, aka Babo?

10        A.   Fikret Abdic was in Velika Kladusa.  I don't know what he was, a

11     manager in Agrokomerc.  After that I don't know what his position was.

12        Q.   Let me assist you.  Was he a Muslim champion?  Was he not in the

13     Presidency and received the most votes?

14        A.   That is correct and he handed over power to Alija.  He actually

15     won the elections.

16        Q.   You concluded that Mladic was in favour of you joining Abdic

17     rather than Izetbegovic; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You also say that he was pleasant in the way he

20     addressed you, that he seemed to be mild in character, and that you could

21     trust him?

22        A.   When we asked him about the situation, he said that some 180

23     Serbs were held prisoner in Tuzla and that he had to take us prisoner in

24     order to have us exchanged for them.

25        Q.   Thank you.  What sort of clothes was he wearing?

Page 21937

 1        A.   Camouflage fatigue with rank designation without a cap.

 2        Q.   Where could you see his rank?

 3        A.   On his shoulder or upper arm or maybe both.  I don't know.  But I

 4     know we could see his rank.

 5        Q.   At what time did General Mladic walk into the house on the

 6     12th of July?

 7        A.   I can't be certain.  Perhaps at around 6.00 or 7.00, maybe two

 8     hours before it got dark.

 9        Q.   And he didn't stay there long, did he?

10        A.   No, he did not.  He took the same way back.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Next you were taken from there to Bratunac.  I was

12     confused a little by Mr. Nicholls' interpretation of what you said.  You

13     seem to have said that you were transferred onboard two trucks that were

14     packed.  How many of you were there and how many fitted on one truck?

15        A.   We were not on any trucks, we were on buses.

16        Q.   What size buses?

17        A.   Regular buses.  I didn't measure their length.  There must have

18     been at least 70 of us in any given bus.  They were packed.

19        Q.   So it has nothing to do with the 40 or 50 people in the house but

20     there were other people too; right?

21        A.   In the -- on the ground level of the house there were as many

22     people as there could be and the extra people had to sit around the

23     house.

24        Q.   They were seated; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21938

 1        Q.   They were sitting around the house.  I'm not sure the

 2     interpreters managed to understand our local dialect, but am I correct?

 3        A.   Yes, they were seated.

 4        Q.   Next you were taken to Bratunac.  Where to?

 5        A.   Close to the bus station in Bratunac, and there they took a right

 6     turn where you go to Kravica.  We passed by a school and a warehouse.

 7        Q.   Were you then put in the warehouse?

 8        A.   Yes, I was.

 9        Q.   So it wasn't a school?

10        A.   It was not.

11        Q.   Is it correct that in Tuzla you were explained what the building

12     was?

13        A.   Yes.  Some people from Bratunac whom I came across in Tuzla, they

14     explained it.

15        Q.   In Tuzla you were also explained where the place of the execution

16     was and the fence was described to you as well as the underpass under the

17     railroad?

18        A.   Yes, and the gym where some played basketball.

19        Q.   Who described it to you?

20        A.   I can't remember them, some Bosniaks.

21        Q.   Were they taken there too so that they knew where you had been?

22        A.   No.  I told you that in peace time they used to play basketball

23     there.

24        Q.   Did they describe it to you before the 21st of July when you

25     provided your statement or was it only after you had given your

Page 21939

 1     statement?

 2        A.   Well, I can't say that with any certainty.

 3        Q.   What was the size of the first warehouse where you were put in?

 4        A.   In Bratunac?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   I couldn't say.  I think some 400 of us were inside.

 7        Q.   Four hundred.  But how sizeable was the warehouse when all of you

 8     could be inside?

 9        A.   I really can't say.  If you don't know, I don't either.  Perhaps

10     I did know back then, but I can no longer say.

11        Q.   Very well.  I'm confused a bit.  You were told that it was a

12     warehouse belonging to a co-operative, so what does the

13     Vuk Karadzic school have to do with anything?

14        A.   The school is away from the warehouse.  It is not close.  We

15     passed by the school.  When I was asked where we had gone, I told them we

16     passed by a school and there was a warehouse of the school there.

17        Q.   In Tuzla they told you it was a co-operative's warehouse;

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.  There was a co-operative warehouse in Kravica as well,

20     where many of the killings took place, and they gave up the Bratunac

21     warehouse.

22        Q.   So you were not held in the Vuk Karadzic school?

23        A.   I was not.

24        Q.   You say that in the warehouse there were 400 of you guarded by

25     two soldiers; correct?

Page 21940

 1        A.   Not two.  That evening there were more.  When one issued orders

 2     he said that 12 of you should do as ordered, is it clear, and they all

 3     said in unison "clear."  And that's when they started taking us out and

 4     killing us.

 5        Q.   We'll get to that.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Excuse me, just from now on I'm going to ask for

 7     cites, if possible, when it's "you said" or "in your statement," this or

 8     that, please.  Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   If I understood correctly, my esteemed colleague Mr. Nicholls

11     himself said in the summary that the witness was held in the

12     Vuk Karadzic school.  I can even provide you a line reference.  It is

13     between lines 58 and 68 -- sorry, pages.

14             How high were the walls of the warehouse?

15        A.   Perhaps around 4 metres.  I'm not sure.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You said, did you not, that on the wall there was a

17     window with glass panes; correct?

18        A.   Yes, just under the ceiling, under the roof.

19        Q.   So you weren't able to see anything through it because it was far

20     too high up; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just make it clear, I don't think Mr. Nicholls said

23     he was in the Vuk Karadzic school.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  That was what my point was going to be,

25     Your Honour, if you look at what I said.  I said:

Page 21941

 1             "They were driven to Bratunac and there they were met by 10 or 15

 2     Serb soldiers in front of an abandoned warehouse that the witness noticed

 3     was near a school they passed ..." and then I continued.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  He later learned the school in Bratunac was called

 5     the Vuk Karadzic school.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, I also said at line 13:

 7             "Men continued to be brought to the warehouse until about

 8     midnight when it was full."

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but in any event --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Apologies.  I seem to have noticed

11     the reference to the Vuk Karadzic school because it seemed important to

12     me to point out that he was not held there.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Were you counted in the warehouse and how many times?

15        A.   Once only.

16        Q.   When?

17        A.   Yes, the next day in the evening.

18        Q.   And then they counted around 400 of you?

19        A.   296 people who were alive at that moment.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay, I'm -- I don't mean to object, but he has to

21     be fair in putting the questions to the witness.  The witness -- I don't

22     know where he's getting the point that the witness said or that there

23     were 400 people counted in the next day.  And the way the question is

24     phrased, it sounds to the witness as though it's something he has said,

25     that they were counted -- 400 people the next day.

Page 21942

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps Mr. Robinson could tell us.

 2     I believe it was one page before where the witness said that there were

 3     around 400.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Didn't you say a moment ago that some 400 people were taken to

 6     Bratunac?

 7        A.   Yes, when I said that I supposed that that was the total.  There

 8     were many killed in one night - I think 14 - and then ten of them were

 9     taken the next morning to load the dead bodies and they didn't return

10     either.  And it continued.  In my assessment, some 40 were killed that

11     way.  The next day, just before it got dark, another ten were taken to

12     load the bodies; they didn't return either.  And that's when I say that

13     296 remained, but I believe the initial figure must have been at around

14     400.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  It's no point, but, Mr. Nicholls, it

16     was you that summarised it like this.  According to the witness's

17     estimate, there were 400 men held there, it's line 15, page 5 --

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's correct, Your Honour.  But when the -- when

19     they were counted the next day, it's a -- the different number that the

20     witness just quoted us.  So he estimated that there were 400 that arrived

21     there and then when they were put on the buses to be taken away there was

22     296, if I remember the number the witness said was counted --

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think you summarised -- you referred to 296

24     in your summary.

25             So let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 21943

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Which killings did you see?  You saw one killing in the gym;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Which gym?  In Karakaj?

 6        Q.   I understood that someone was killed with a metal bar and then an

 7     axe in the gym?

 8        A.   Yes, I did see that.  In the morning, they allowed us to use a

 9     toilet which was in a side room.  There was a hall and there was then a

10     small room to the left.  As we went to the toilet, they would simply put

11     a hand on the person's shoulder and kill them later.  We weren't supposed

12     to -- allowed to look.  As I was going back I saw a man being stopped

13     that way and he was told, "Come this way."  He went through them and

14     there were three on one side and three on the other.  There was another

15     one with an automatic rifle facing the man approaching him, and he called

16     him, "Come to me, come to me."  The man did and then there was a man on

17     the left who hit him on the back with a metal bar or perhaps on the head.

18     And the man fell down.  Another man on the right side had an axe and that

19     axe was constantly bloody and he was showing it off to show us what he

20     was doing.  He hit him with the axe on the back.  I left and the last

21     thing I saw was that he was holding onto the axe.  He either didn't want

22     to remove it or couldn't take it out any longer.  In any case, I returned

23     to the warehouse.

24        Q.   Thank you.  So that's the murder you saw.  Did you see any

25     others?

Page 21944

 1        A.   I heard, I heard people say, "He's dead, take him away."  That's

 2     what I could hear.  And I could also hear when they slit their throats

 3     you could hear the gurgling sound and people being dragged across the

 4     concrete floor.  That's when we knew someone had been killed.  I didn't

 5     see it but I could hear the blows and noises.

 6        Q.   Uh-huh.  And you also heard when Ibro Mustafic was taken out and

 7     you concluded that he was dead?

 8        A.   Ibran Mustafic, here's what I stated, when he was taken out we

 9     heard noise.  There was somebody with him who started shouting, and then

10     there was silence.  And then they asked, "What do you think happened to

11     Mustafic?"  And whatever happened to the others probably happened to him

12     as well.  It must have been a blow with some blunt object because we

13     couldn't hear a thing.

14        Q.   But you remember, don't you, that the Muslims had tried to commit

15     to -- had tried to -- had made two attempts on Mustafic's life and a

16     month and a half before the fighting around Srebrenica?

17        A.   I don't know that.  Ask Ibran about that.

18        Q.   Ibran was taken out as well, but Ibran survived and after that

19     wrote the book "A Planned Chaos" about the events in Srebrenica?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   But until they told you that he was alive, you were certain that

22     he had been taken out and killed; right?

23        A.   Well, yes, that's what I said because I knew about all the others

24     in Bratunac.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to know why you state in your statement

Page 21945

 1     that in Zivinice two days after your release, which is 65 ter 22369,

 2     page 2, and the statement that was made four days later, 65 ter 22398,

 3     nowhere do you mention that axe, which is a very graphic detail.

 4        A.   I think that I mentioned it in each of my statements.  I don't

 5     remember not mentioning it.  Whoever asked me if I saw a killing - and

 6     you asked me too - I always mentioned it.  So whoever asked me whether I

 7     had seen any killings and I always answered, "Yes, that's the killing

 8     that I saw."  And that I heard somebody being killed with a fire-arm, but

 9     only once; it wasn't used again.

10        Q.   But did you see anybody being hit when the shot was fired?

11        A.   No, I didn't see, but I did hear the shot and I heard them say,

12     "He's dead.  Take him to the heap."

13        Q.   Well, we can check whether the axe is mentioned in those two

14     statements, but tell me why the man was hit by the bar?

15        A.   When we arrived one of them held this bar.  It was a -- it has

16     a -- had a square section, and he held the bar and threatened us, "Here's

17     what you will be killed with tonight."  And the same axe was held by

18     another and he threatened us.  He also had a knife and said, "This is

19     what I'll use to cut your throats."

20        Q.   Yes, but why was he hit?

21        A.   You ask the one who hit him why, because he was a Bosniak, a

22     Muslim; that's the only reason why.

23        Q.   But didn't you say in your statement in Tuzla that they found a

24     knife on him and that the soldier hit him, as you say, with a metal bar,

25     killing him instantly, but you never mention another soldier or an axe.

Page 21946

 1     So is it true what you stated, that they found a concealed knife on his

 2     person?

 3        A.   They asked one man, "What do you have?"  And they hit him right

 4     there on the spot and he died of it.  You want us to go into the details?

 5     When they discovered that he was making some things -- he was making

 6     pulleys and he had a knife on him and they found it and that's when it

 7     happens -- happened.  But I didn't see what happened because I was at the

 8     toilet, but I saw him taken -- being taken out to the yard and there he

 9     was killed.

10        Q.   But you stated that they found a knife on his person and that's

11     why he was hit with a bar?

12        A.   No.  That wasn't it.  I didn't see who it was or what happened,

13     but they took him by the shoulder and pulled him away.  And another was

14     asked by the door, "What's in your bag?  Take it out."  And they found a

15     knife in that bag that he had used to make pulleys, but they immediately

16     dragged him out and killed him outside.

17        Q.   Well, if there's time on Monday we'll check that on the relevant

18     pages, but you stated that there was no beating before 10.00 p.m.?

19        A.   Until 10.00 p.m., people were still being brought in.

20        Q.   But who stayed behind with you after 10.00 p.m.?  Some soldiers

21     and officers had left and somebody stayed.

22        A.   I don't know who they were.  They were some guys at the door

23     where the battery or torch is.  There were around five or six.

24        Q.   So after 10.00 p.m. some people with torches turned up.  Is it

25     true that they were looking for specific persons?

Page 21947

 1        A.   They only asked who was from where.  They were asking whether

 2     there was anybody from beyond village so and so, and nobody responded.

 3     And then they would shine their torches on somebody and that person had

 4     to leave.  They asked no more questions.

 5        Q.   Which villages did they take interest in?

 6        A.   Glogova, Hranca, and Voljavica.

 7        Q.   Do you know why they were doing that, whether they had some old

 8     misgivings, or whether there had been fighting and that people from those

 9     villages had been going to Serbian villages, Kravica and others, to kill

10     the locals?

11        A.   That's not true.  Glogova and Hranca fell first and the Serbian

12     soldiers took Glogova and Hranca first.  The people fled to the forests

13     and watched their villages burn.  And in Bratunac there still -- there

14     was nothing happening still.

15        Q.   Do you remember that on Christmas day according to the Orthodox

16     calendar, quite -- 1993 there was a Muslim attack and 54 civilians were

17     killed?

18        A.   But why didn't you let humanitarian aid pass?  That case nobody

19     would have attacked Kravica.  People were hungry, their children were

20     starving, and that's when -- when they went to raid those places, because

21     they didn't want their children to die of hunger.  People were saying, "I

22     don't care if I get killed.  I can't watch my child dying of hunger."

23     And you didn't let humanitarian aid pass through.  You're the one who's

24     guilty for Kravica.

25        Q.   Never mind that.  We'll see -- we'll clarify that with the

Page 21948

 1     Trial Chamber, but how many Muslims were killed in Kravica on Christmas

 2     day 1993?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   Not one, sir.  34 Serbian civilians got killed.

 5        A.   I don't know about that either.

 6        Q.   Very well.  They were looking for people from certain villages,

 7     right, and taking them out; right?

 8        A.   No, they first looked for certain persons, but nobody responded.

 9     And later on they know -- they didn't ask anymore, "Where are you from?"

10     But instead, they would shine their torches on someone and the one would

11     have to come out.

12        Q.   Oh, now I understand.  They used their torches and whoever they

13     pointed their torch at had to come out?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You say on the 13th of July around 6.00 p.m. Mladic came again?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   How was he dressed then?

18        A.   The same way as on the previous day.

19        Q.   The same rank insignia?

20        A.   Yes, everything was the same.

21        Q.   Were the rank insignia on his shoulders or the sleeves?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Did you anybody -- did you inform anybody what some people had

24     done to you on the previous night?

25        A.   Of course we did.  Why -- we said, "Why didn't you -- or why did

Page 21949

 1     you do all these things to us?"  So many people got killed.  We almost

 2     suffocated.  But nobody wanted to hear about it.  They only said, "Now

 3     we're taking you to Kalesija to be exchanged."

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.

 5             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection.  I'm just concerned about the

 7     transcript because the interpreter is speaking very fast.  I can hear the

 8     answers coming while the interpreter is still interpreting.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Could both of you slow down.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.  I'll slow down.

11     Okay.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, if you have this written text before you, when you see

16     the cursor stop, then you can start replying, and I also have to remind

17     myself of that.

18        A.   Okay.

19        Q.   Do you know who these people were who at night or during that

20     night came to see you?

21        A.   Serbian soldiers, right?  Or the ones who were -- who had been

22     brought in?

23        Q.   The ones who asked questions, who shone their lights on you, the

24     ones who beat people, did they introduce themselves to you?  Did you find

25     out who they were?

Page 21950

 1        A.   No, I didn't know who they were.

 2        Q.   However, in one of your statements, 1D4875, could we please

 3     display it, but let's not broadcast it publicly, you say that they were

 4     Black Wolves or some-such; right?

 5        A.   I may have said that.  If I did say it, then they were.  At this

 6     moment, I don't remember.

 7        Q.   It says here on page 2 - can we see page 2 - and don't broadcast

 8     it at all, in the centre paragraph I'll read in English but you will hear

 9     the interpretation.

10             [In English] "More Serbs arrived with torches.  They asked:  'Who

11     is from Glogova?  Who is from Bratunac?  Who is from Valjevo (in Serbia)?

12     Who is from Loznica?  Who is from Sabac? ' The people from Glogova put

13     their hands up.  Then the people from Bratunac, et cetera.  The Serbs

14     then said that they are 'Black Wolves' (...  special military unit).

15     They may have said that they were 'Wolves from the Drina'  (another Serb

16     special unit).  I don't remember if they said 'Black Wolves' or 'Wolves

17     from the Drina.'  They were definitely one or the other."

18             [Interpretation] So some new people arrived who had not taken you

19     there and who hadn't been there during the day; right?

20        A.   At Potocari I was saying who introduced themselves to us and who

21     approached the house.  They introduced themselves as being from Uzice,

22     others from Valjevo, others again from Novi Sad.  At Bratunac, though, I

23     cannot remember how they introduced themselves.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In two or three lines back.

25             [In English] "Only two Serbs stayed in the warehouse ..."

Page 21951

 1             [Interpretation] So there were two Serbs who stayed behind in the

 2     warehouse and there were around 350 of you; right?

 3        A.   That is not my statement, that only two Serbs stayed in the

 4     warehouse.  I don't know how many they were, but at least six of them

 5     were at the door and we saw them and there may have been more, but there

 6     were at least six of them all night long.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you notice any difference between the ones who

 8     brought you there during the day and the ones who arrived at night?  If

 9     so, what kind of difference, uniform, behaviour?

10        A.   Only one brought us.  He was sitting next to the driver on the

11     bus.  He had an automatic rifle and I think he wore a camouflage uniform,

12     but it was a uniform, I'm sure.  And that's all.  Only the bus.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And on the bus there were about 70 Muslims and one

14     Serb; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you say that nobody dared complain to Mladic about the

17     beatings?

18        A.   Not just one.  We all cried out, "Why are you stifling us here?

19     Why are you killing us?  Why are you taking us away?"  But he wouldn't

20     even discuss it.  He just said, "Now you're going to Kalesija to be

21     exchanged."

22        Q.   Very well.  Let us see what you say in your statement.

23             Mladic mentioned some detained Serbs in Tuzla to you, right, and

24     that there is to be an exchange?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21952

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And in your statement given to the Prosecution,

 2     228397 [as interpreted] , on page 7, paragraph 22, you say that there

 3     were only two soldiers.  How were these two soldiers dressed?

 4        A.   Are you asking me about Bratunac or where?

 5        Q.   Can we get this document 22397 on the 65 ter list.  Can we have

 6     page 5, paragraph 4.  Don't have this broadcast.

 7             Is this your statement?

 8        A.   Yes, my signature.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Page 5, paragraph 4, please take a look at this.

10     This is what you say, you're speaking about Mladic:

11             "Around 1800 hours," can this be zoomed in, "the soldiers at the

12     door said General Mladic is coming ..." and now we're going to see what

13     happened to you.  Soon after that Mladic arrived and you described what

14     he was wearing:  He stayed by the door with the guards and we asked why

15     we were being kept there.  No one dared complain about the killings and

16     the beatings.

17             So Mladic had not been informed; right?

18        A.   Well, it's not that there was one person complaining.  As a

19     group, we were saying, "Why are you killing us here?  Why won't you give

20     us water, anything?"  And he said, "If there could have been an exchange

21     sooner, this wouldn't have happened.  You can count how many of you are

22     there."  He didn't even want to hear what we were saying.  And he said,

23     "Now I'm going to say how you're going to be transported to Kalesija, all

24     of you."

25        Q.   All right.  Something similar is written here as well, but you

Page 21953

 1     say that you asked why you were being kept and then there is a sentence

 2     here that says:

 3             "No one dared to complain about the killings and beatings."

 4        A.   Not individually because otherwise such a person would have been

 5     killed.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And then you said after that that during the

 7     transport, during the transport, a red vehicle escorted the buses and

 8     that Mladic was in the red vehicle; right?

 9        A.   In front of the factory, the battery factory, when we're going

10     from Potocari to Bratunac, then Mladic walked up to the first bus.  I was

11     in the first bus.  I was close to the driver because I was one of the

12     last to board.  And he said, "Follow the red car and go behind it."  A

13     Serb soldier came in and stood by the driver.  He had an automatic rifle.

14     He closed the door.  Mladic remained on the road and we saw this red car

15     in front of us.  The red car set out and we followed the red car.  We

16     asked the driver, "Where are we going now?"  And he said, "Did you hear

17     what Mladic said, that I should follow the red car.  If you know, then I

18     know too.  I have no idea where we're going.  I'm just going to follow

19     the red car."  And that is how the red car went to Bratunac, turned left

20     to Kravica, and then it turned right before the bus station and then to

21     some school and then in front of this co-operative warehouse.  The car

22     stopped.  The buses stopped.  There was Serb soldiers there.  There was a

23     group there, perhaps about 15 soldiers.  They said to us, "Get out."

24     They opened the door.  They said, "Get out, go into the warehouse," and

25     that is how we got out and walked into this warehouse.

Page 21954

 1        Q.   You're talking about the time when you arrived in Bratunac.  I am

 2     asking you how things were when you left Bratunac.

 3        A.   As I was leaving Bratunac, or rather, that whereas in Bratunac, I

 4     boarded a bus.  On the left-hand side Mladic was standing there.  There

 5     was a group of perhaps 15 soldiers.  And now I was watching for the bus.

 6     He was doing this with his hand talking to them.  They were watching him,

 7     and he was saying something to them and then he left.  And then we asked

 8     the driver, "What are we waiting for?  Why are we not leaving?"  And he

 9     said, "I don't know either.  I am watching the bus in front of me, and

10     when that bus leaves, I'll start too."  And that's how we waited until

11     the lights were turned on in Bratunac.  When the lights were turned on,

12     then the buses left and that's how we got to Drinjaca.  We stopped at

13     Drinjaca and then we continued our journey.

14        Q.   Thank you.  So around 9.30 you arrived in this school; right?

15        A.   I think around 2.00, I think, I'm not sure, but it must have been

16     after midnight.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think you have more, so we have to

18     continue on Monday.

19             It's time to conclude for the day, Mr. Witness.  We --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  You are -- probably you will be aware of this, but

22     you are not supposed to discuss about your testimony with anybody else.

23     Do you understand that, sir?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that.  I understand

25     that.

Page 21955

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Pleased have a nice weekend.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I wish you

 3     the same.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             We'll resume on Monday at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of

 8                           November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.