Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22725

 1                           Wednesday, 11 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Doctor.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you, Excellency.  Good morning, Excellencies.

10             [Interpretation] Good morning, everyone.

11                           WITNESS:  JOHN CLARK [Resumed]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Clark.  I don't know how much

14     time we have left, but I'm going to do my best to finish in the time

15     allotted to me.  I would like to ask you --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Are we receiving the English

17     translation?  Oh, yes.  Then please carry on.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   I wanted to ask you about what we were talking about during our

20     interview.  You did not recall if there was any Serbian presence during

21     the exhumations, during the work of the pathologists doing the autopsies.

22     Is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.  There was no Serbian presence at all in the

24     mortuary.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 22726

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The Judges do not get the English translations

 2     except for Judge Baird.

 3             Doctor --

 4             THE WITNESS:  I'm getting it, yes.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Technicians will take a look.  In the

 7     meantime, let's continue.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you know -- well, you used, to an extent, also the interviews

10     and statements of witnesses when you were putting the whole picture

11     together; is that right?

12        A.   I'm not getting the translation through the headphones, but I'm

13     reading it on the screen which will take a little time.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will take a break for five or

15     ten minutes.

16                           --- Break taken at 9.05 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 9.20 a.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I hope everything has been sorted out.

19             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED:  Now I do not have anything in my ear.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let us try.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The question was:  You -- when you were putting the whole picture

24     together, you were also using interviews by the investigators with other

25     persons, witnesses of sorts.  Is that correct?

Page 22727

 1        A.   No, it's not correct.  With one exception, these reports were

 2     compiled entirely from the post mortem reports together with a little bit

 3     of background information for the site which we had been given at the

 4     start of the procedure.  The only exception was the four bodies from

 5     Vlasenica in which I was given detailed witness statements to consider,

 6     but other than that, absolutely nothing other than vague -- just general

 7     background information.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  This is as far as what actually reached you, but

 9     others had different information.  Do you know if any interviews were

10     conducted with witnesses by, for example, investigators and those who

11     were conducting the exhumations and so on?

12        A.   Well, undoubtedly the investigators would have carried out

13     interviews; that was their role.  That information did not reach us.

14        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Clark.  In your opinion, in view of the fact that

15     this is a conflict between two sides, between two ethnic and religious

16     communities, would it be fair for there to have been Serbian experts

17     present there, at least for them to be able to have access if not to

18     participate, especially when we're talking about exhumations and other

19     investigative actions?

20        A.   I would have had no problem myself in having Serb pathologists

21     present in the mortuary.  That was not my decision.  I'm aware, however,

22     that Serb authorities have had a chance to look at all the post mortem

23     reports and to comment on them and have done so.  And I've seen -- I have

24     seen some of their comments.  But that was not my decision to take,

25     whether to have Serb pathologists present.  As I say, I would have had no

Page 22728

 1     problem at all in them attending, standing beside me.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Well, of course I didn't think that any of those

 3     conducting the autopsies would have made this decision, but it was a fact

 4     that in Visoko all the bodies, both of the Muslim and Serb victims, were

 5     put away but the Muslim bodies were not accessible to the Serbian experts

 6     without permission of the Muslim side.  You knew that, of course; right?

 7        A.   Not specifically, no, I didn't.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In a number of cases you found traces of gun-shot

 9     wounds from a shot-gun even though it could not be concluded that the

10     cause of death was that weapon.  However, the presence of gun-shot was

11     established in a number of bodies.  Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.  This was a small number of people in which

13     we found typical shot-gun pellets, clearly indicating that a shot-gun had

14     been used as opposed to a handgun or a high-velocity weapon.  They were

15     concentrated in I think -- I think Nova Kasaba and probably one of the

16     other sites.  I may have that wrong.  But there was a fairly small

17     number.  At least some of these people also had high-velocity weapon

18     injuries, but as I recall, in two cases the only injury we found was

19     shot-gun injury and we attributed that as the cause of death.  It wasn't

20     a common finding, but it's -- certainly was present in occasional cases,

21     shot-gun pellets.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive information about the degree to which

23     civilians were armed before the war broke out and as it was breaking out?

24     Did you receive any information as to the extent to which the civilian

25     population had various types of weapons?

Page 22729

 1        A.   No, I was not given any information specifically on that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And would you agree with my assertion that civilians

 3     easily could have had both an automatic rifle and a shot-gun while

 4     soldiers and policemen only had automatic rifles.  They did not have

 5     shot-guns, at least it was not recorded anywhere as being part of the

 6     weaponry available to the armed formations.

 7        A.   I'm sure it's possible that civilians had access to shot-guns.  I

 8     can't say any more than that.

 9        Q.   Would you agree that it would be unusual for the army or the

10     police to have shot-guns --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, is that a question for this expert

12     witness?  Please move on to your next questions.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In a number of cases in Zeleni Jadar, even in 7 per cent of the

16     cases you found that -- you found blast injuries and the presence of

17     shrapnel; is that correct?

18        A.   Yeah, we certainly found shrapnel.  I'm just checking the

19     percentage.  I think it was actually seven cases.  We found blast damage

20     in seven men out of 101 bodies, yes, you're right, 7 per cent, it is the

21     same.  They had blast damage and pieces of shrapnel which were I have to

22     say very similar to the shrapnel we found in Glogova, one of the graves

23     in Glogova, which is the only other grave in which we did find shrapnel.

24     So Glogova and Zeleni Jadar both had evidence of shrapnel injuries.  No

25     other graves had that.

Page 22730

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive information at all that in the cases

 2     when trenches were captured by one or the other side, these same trenches

 3     were also used as places of burial, as graves, and the opponent's

 4     casualties would be buried in an existing grave.  Did anybody inform you

 5     about that?  Do you know if this was something that happened or if it was

 6     possible at all?

 7        A.   I knew nothing about that at all.

 8        Q.   I think that this is an opening question relating to the presence

 9     of bullet casings.  I think in a number of cases, perhaps in Kasaba and

10     Konjevic Polje - but this was not in your report, it was in the report of

11     those who actually conducted the exhumations - but in your findings it

12     states that in a number of graves there were significant shell casings

13     found.  I just wanted to tell you that when a trench is captured, then

14     that trench is used as a ready-made grave for enemy soldiers.  So is it

15     possible that the shells that were found in the trench or around the

16     trench or around the grave could have originated from fire that was

17     originating from that place, i.e., that in the fighting there was

18     actually shooting from those places?

19        A.   That certainly could be one explanation for shell cases beside

20     the bodies.  It has to be said that we found shell casing in only a very

21     few bodies.  There was -- I think in Ravnice we found some, but it wasn't

22     a common finding at all.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, these lines of questions do not help

24     the Chamber, all speculative.  I think it's now time for you to wrap up

25     your questions.

Page 22731

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is it true that in some cases you saw traces of animal-caused

 4     damage, which would indicate that before burial the body was accessible

 5     to wild animals?

 6        A.   I think the only site we saw that was in Ravnice in which I

 7     understand the bodies were already -- well, found out in the open anyway

 8     on a slope.  I'm not aware that we found animal damage in any of the

 9     other bodies.  Bear in mind we were only looking at skeletons.  Earlier

10     animal damage would, of course, affect the skin, which wasn't present

11     here.  But apart from Ravnice we saw no evidence of animal damage.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Could we agree perhaps that DNA findings may be used

13     only for identification, but certainly not to determine the cause of

14     death, the time of death, et cetera?

15        A.   Yes, entirely, yes.  It is only for identification purposes.

16        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Clark, for your testimony.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Mitchell, do you have any re-examination?

19             MR. MITCHELL:  No, I don't, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Thank you, Dr. Clark.  That concludes your evidence.

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE KWON:  On behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal as a

24     whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague yet again

25     to give it.

Page 22732

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Now you're free to go.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell, please call your next witness.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, the next witness is Mr. Peccerelli.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, while we're waiting to

 8     bring in the next witness, I just wanted to ask the Chamber that we

 9     received a filing yesterday from the Registry in connection with

10     Witness KDZ523 and part of that filing was ex parte.  And it's our

11     request that that ex parte portion of the filing be made available to the

12     parties.  I'd like you to consider that when dealing with that request.

13     Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I address the Court regarding

15     the sequence of witnesses.  Due to some mistake, I expected Mr. Kingori

16     for today.  Is it a problem to change the order of witnesses because I

17     haven't brought the background material for Mr. Peccerelli.  I would have

18     to print it off the computer.

19             JUDGE KWON:  How long would you need for that preparation?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll see what I can print off from

21     here, but I've left all the background material for this witness back

22     there.  I was ready for Mr. Kingori.  I'll see in a few minutes what I

23     can access.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, would you have a problem if we begin

25     with Mr. Kingori?

Page 22733

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, Mr. Peccerelli is flying out --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, right.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  -- at 9.00 tomorrow morning, so he really needs to

 4     finish today if at all possible.  And I believe Mr. Kingori is not here

 5     yet.  He's not -- he's physically in The Hague, but he's not coming in

 6     until -- for at least another couple of hours.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies, Mr. Peccerelli.  Due to some

10     administrative matters, probably the Chamber needs to break about at

11     least half an hour and I hope with the assistance of the Registry I think

12     that problem could be sorted out.

13             We'll take a break for half an hour.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding.

15                           --- Recess taken at 9.40 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I address the Chamber?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to apologise, but I

20     must inform you that my living and working conditions have deteriorated

21     because the Registry, probably for saving purposes, put me in a wing

22     where we are 17 or 18 instead of seven to eight and I can use only a

23     public telephone.  If I want to use the telephone in the office on the

24     ground floor, I have to write a special request.  And if there is nobody

25     at the administration, then I can make the phone call only the day after.

Page 22734

 1     I have no way of contacting my team.

 2             Without any need whatsoever, so many of us are crammed into one

 3     wing, which makes the overall living conditions much worse.  And certain

 4     restrictions are now imposed not related to the personnel but without any

 5     justification and that creates a lot of problems for me because I have no

 6     way of using a secure line because all my associates are only accessible

 7     on mobile phones.  And the Registry allows secure communication only on

 8     land-lines.  None of my associates are available on land-lines.  That is

 9     why I am experiencing these difficulties and I want you to know that.

10     During the recess I was placed into a different wing where we are very

11     many.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll note that, but I believe there are ways to

13     address the matter.  Very well.

14             Would the witness kindly take the solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

16     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I apologise on behalf of the Chamber for your

20     inconveniences.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           WITNESS:  FREDY PECCERELLI

25                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:

Page 22735

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   Would you please state and spell your full name for the record.

 4        A.   My name is Fredy Peccerelli, F-r-e-d-y P-e-c-c-e-r-e-l-l-i.

 5        Q.   Before we start can you describe what that material is that's in

 6     front of you at the moment?

 7        A.   Yeah, I have a copy of the Lazete 1 report, the Lazete 2 report,

 8     as well as copies of the registry logs for both excavation and exhumation

 9     procedures.

10        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, what is your profession?

11        A.   I am a forensic and biological anthropologist.

12             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I please have 65 ter number 3454 in e-court.

13        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, this is a copy of your CV.  We can see on the

14     first page that you're the executive director of the Guatemalan Forensic

15     Anthropology Foundation.  Is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, that is correct.

17        Q.   Can you briefly describe your work there, what it is that you do.

18        A.   I have been working for the Guatemalan Forensic Anthropology

19     Foundation since 1995, 17 years now.  I direct the full operations of the

20     institution.  These are mainly operational duties as well as public

21     speaking and fund gathering for the organisation.  I have grown -- or

22     helped the organisation to grow from five individuals to currently

23     136 individuals.  The organisation has four technical areas.  These are

24     forensic archaeology, forensic anthropology, forensic genetics, as well

25     as the investigation of missing peoples -- missing persons unit.  We have

Page 22736

 1     a multi-disciplinary approach to the search of missing persons, recovery

 2     of evidence, and we investigate the crimes of the Guatemalan internal

 3     armed conflict.

 4        Q.   You worked for the ICTY's Office of the Prosecutor in 1997, 1998,

 5     and 2000; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7        Q.   What was your position in 1997 and 1998?

 8        A.   If I'm not mistaken, 1997 I was hired as a forensic archaeologist

 9     and in 1998 as a forensic anthropologist.  My duties were documentation,

10     recovery and exhumation of human remains from mass graves.  In 1997

11     specifically from Brcko and in 1998 with sites associated with the

12     Srebrenica killings.

13        Q.   In 2000 you worked as the deputy senior forensic archaeologist

14     for the ICTY; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   Can you describe what that role was, who you reported to and what

17     your responsibilities were.

18        A.   Well, I was called upon by Dr. -- Professor Richard Wright.  He

19     told me that he was going to be leaving to Australia because of some

20     personal or academic reasons and he wanted me to take over while he was

21     gone.  So I was instructed to lead a team of international archaeologists

22     and anthropologists in the recovery, exhumation, and documentation of

23     mass graves.  Specifically, I was instructed to exhume the grave of

24     Lazete 1 initially and then later Lazete 2.

25        Q.   And did you write reports on those two exhumations at Lazete 1

Page 22737

 1     and Lazete 2?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.  I rendered two reports.  They're entitled "Lazete 1"

 3     and "Lazete 2."

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I would like to move to tender

 5     Mr. Peccerelli's CV.  It was 65 ter 3454.  The Lazete 1 report which is

 6     65 ter 2482.  And the Lazete 2 report which is 65 ter 11151.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             They will all be admitted.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  They will be Exhibits P4134 through to 4136

12     respectively.

13             MR. MITCHELL:

14        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, do you recall testifying about these two reports

15     in the Tolimir case on the 6th of December, 2000 -- sorry, 2010?

16        A.   Yes, 2010, yes.

17        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review that testimony recently?

18        A.   Yes, I have.  I've read the full testimony.

19        Q.   Now, I understand there is one correction to make.  At transcript

20     page 8464, line 10 of that testimony, you state that there was a wire

21     ligature around the leg of a body in the Lazete 1 grave.  It's correct

22     that that was actually a strip of pink material around the leg of that

23     body; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.  It was, if I recall correctly, body 474,

25     LZ B474, and it actually has a strip of pink scalloped material that's

Page 22738

 1     tied around the thighs of both legs and then also the lower leg of -- one

 2     of the lower legs.

 3        Q.   With that one correction can you confirm that that transcript

 4     accurately reflects your testimony in that case?

 5        A.   Yes, it does.  It accurately represents my testimony.

 6        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions on the same topics

 7     today, would your answers be the same?

 8        A.   I believe so.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I would like to tender

10     Mr. Peccerelli's Tolimir testimony.  That's 65 ter 23511.  And there was

11     one associated exhibit that we have requested leave to add to our

12     65 ter list and tender.  That's number 23513.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you also need a leave to add this photo to

14     your 65 ter list?

15             MR. MITCHELL:  That's right, Mr. President.  We were -- request

16     that leave in our notification.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Any objections, Mr. Robinson?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  That leave is granted and we'll admit the transcript

21     in the Tolimir case as Exhibit P4137 in this case.  And we'll give the

22     number for that associated exhibit, Exhibit P4138.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

24             I'd now like to read a summary of Mr. Peccerelli's testimony from

25     the Tolimir case.

Page 22739

 1             In 2000, Mr. Peccerelli oversaw the excavation and exhumation of

 2     two mass graves known as Lazete 1 and Lazete 2C.  The Lazete 1 grave was

 3     a partially robbed primary grave that was exhumed between the

 4     13th of July and the 8th of August, 2000.  It measured 15.8 metres long,

 5     5.8 metres wide and 1.4 metres deep.  It contained 127 bodies in

 6     three distinct concentrations as well as two additional bodies that were

 7     found in an adjacent ditch.  Ligatures were associated with the wrists of

 8     two bodies, while probable blindfolds were associated with 89 bodies.  A

 9     further 37 pieces of material were located in the grave fill.  These

10     37 items appear to be the same material from which the probable

11     blindfolds were made.  456 shell casings were found grouped together on

12     the southern edge of the Lazete 1 grave area, mostly on the side of a

13     track leading into the field where the grave was located.  Mr. Peccerelli

14     testified that the grouping of the shell casings suggested that firing

15     had occurred in that location.

16             The Lazete 2C grave was a large primary grave that was excavated

17     and exhumed by Mr. Peccerelli's team in August 2000.  It was much larger

18     than the Lazete 1 site, measuring 37.7 metres in length and 4 metres in

19     width.  The grave had been partially robbed in September 1995 and

20     two sections of the grave designated as Lazete 2A and Lazete 2B had

21     previously been excavated in 1996 by a team from Physicians from Human

22     Rights, or PHR, led by Mr. Bill Haglund.  From this grave

23     Mr. Peccerelli's team recovered 16 bodies and 26 body parts that had not

24     previously been removed either during the robbing event in September 1995

25     or PHR's partial exhumation in 1996.  Probable blindfolds were associated

Page 22740

 1     with eight of these 16 bodies.  671 shell casings were found grouped

 2     together near the Lazete 2C grave.  Mr. Peccerelli concluded that the

 3     shell casings were most likely fired at this location.  In addition,

 4     20 live rounds, 46 bullets, and 34 strips of material were found at the

 5     Lazete 2C site.  The strips of material found at the Lazete 2C site were

 6     consistent with the strips of material found at the Lazete 1 mass grave

 7     site.

 8        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, I have a few additional questions on three

 9     topics.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can have 65 ter 2482 in e-court.  It's

11     Exhibit P4135.

12        Q.   This is your report on Lazete 1.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can have page 12 in e-court.

14        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, I think that's page 11 in the hard copy of your

15     report.

16             Now, we can see here some photos of the site that you exhumed.

17     Were you able to tell whether the bodies in the Lazete 1 grave were

18     deposited in one event or were they deposited there at different times,

19     possibly over a period of several years?

20        A.   During the excavation we were able to establish that a single

21     event was the cause of this grave.  The grave showed uniform profiles and

22     as well as a uniform bottom.  The bodies were displaced in a uniform

23     manner and clumped together throughout the grave.  And the only thing

24     where we can see that there was a secondary excavation on the grave was

25     when a robbing event occurred posterior to the primary grave being dug,

Page 22741

 1     and this was seen by a difference in the soil fill in those two robbing

 2     areas as well as the presence of truncated body parts -- truncated bodies

 3     as well as the creation of body parts specifically on the edges of the

 4     robbing areas as well as in the fill.

 5             It is important to note that throughout the grave you can see a

 6     continuum of the edges of the grave as well as of the equipment that was

 7     used to create this grave.  And the bodies are laid on top of each other

 8     only with small pieces of top-soil among them.  This indicates that the

 9     bodies were placed in there at one time and most likely had this top-soil

10     among the bodies, between the bodies, because of the way they were placed

11     in the grave, most likely pushed in the grave by machinery.

12        Q.   What would you expect to see -- what archaeological evidence

13     would you expect to see if the bodies had been placed in there at

14     different times?

15        A.   Well, first of all, we would expect to see the existence of

16     disarticulation of the bodies, which we did not see here.  Even the body

17     parts were articulated among the bones that were there, that were left.

18     In other words, these were severed during an extraction process that was

19     posterior to the initial burial and these showed the same type of

20     decomposition as the rest of the bodies.  We did not see any signs of

21     features within the grave that would lead us to believe that this was a

22     prior burial of any type.  The hole, the original hole that later turned

23     into a grave when the bodies were deposited into it was dug into a virgin

24     clay yellowish soil and the fill was a combination of the strata that was

25     exhumed as well as the top-soil that was deposited into it over the

Page 22742

 1     bodies and this was uniform throughout.

 2        Q.   At page 21 of this report you describe how the 20 -- 129 bodies

 3     from this grave were found in various states of decomposition.  So if

 4     these bodies all went into the grave in a single event, can you explain

 5     why the bodies show differential rates of decomposition?

 6        A.   Yes, well, I have worked in over 1400 investigations in

 7     Guatemala, and when it comes to mass graves there is differential

 8     decomposition due to many factors but decomposition in itself is a very

 9     complex issue.  It is impacted by specifically three types of

10     differences.  For example, first we look at the biological aspects of

11     decomposition, then we look at the environmental and then the cultural.

12     As far as the biological, we have to remember that bodies might decompose

13     differently due to their weight, their size, and their sex even.  As far

14     as environmental, we have to remember that the difference in humidity or

15     acidity of the soil will also impact the bodies differently and how close

16     these bodies are to that soil.  Thirdly, as far as cultural aspects,

17     well, in this case we're talking about a mass grave.  The bodies were

18     buried and also the cause of death or the trauma that was impacted on the

19     bodies will also affect the decomposition.  Specifically in this case the

20     bodies that are closer to the edges or in contact, direct contact, with

21     the soil or are higher in the surface of the grave will decompose at

22     slightly faster rate.  And the bodies that are in the nucleus of the

23     grouping of bodies will be protected from the environment more so and

24     will decompose slightly slower.

25             Now, you do have to remember that the decomposition stages here

Page 22743

 1     are transient.  In other words, there we're talking about advanced

 2     decomposition to skeletonisation.  So there is no one step jumping to the

 3     other.  This is a transient state and the bodies are all among those too.

 4     They show adipocere which is a greyish-whitish tissue, sort of greasy

 5     initially and then eventually it becomes brittle and eventually into

 6     skeletonisation.  This is exactly what we have throughout these bodies in

 7     the entire grave.

 8             So the difference is very slight and it is related to the

 9     location of the bodies within the grave.  Once again, the bodies that are

10     protected from the environment by other bodies decompose at a slightly

11     slower rate than the bodies that are in direct contact with the soil.

12        Q.   After you had established that these bodies were placed in the

13     grave in a single event, were you able to determine when this single

14     event occurred?

15        A.   Well, archaeologically we were not able to do so.  What we did

16     have was images that we were given by the ICTY investigators.  Dean

17     Manning I think was his name at the time.  He gave me an image.  I think

18     it's the image that's on the screen now --

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Perhaps we can bring up a larger version of that

20     image.  If we can have 65 ter 3199 and go to page 146 in e-court.  It's

21     the same image but bigger and better quality.

22        Q.   Perhaps if the usher can assist you, I might ask you to mark some

23     things on this photo as you're describing to us what you can see.  If you

24     can go ahead with your explanation.

25        A.   When we were -- the team was given these images, we studied them.

Page 22744

 1     And what we could see, these are two images, aerial images, taken of the

 2     same location.  And you can see that we are talking about basically this

 3     quadrant here which appears in this image as this quadrant there.  And

 4     then we're also talking about this section here, which appears more or

 5     less there.  You can see they are slightly different and this is probably

 6     because of the angles of where the pictures were taken, but in the one on

 7     my left, which is dated July 5th, you can see that on both fields there

 8     are no features that are relevant.  In other words, there's nothing we

 9     can see.  We can see homogenous ground, vegetation looks pretty much the

10     same, these are cleared fields with maybe a slight feature going to the

11     middle of the top one.  But then on the one on the right that is dated

12     July 27th, we can see that there are specifically an oval-shaped feature

13     with tracks going around it and in the bottom one you can see also an

14     oval-shaped feature with some spillover on both of these.

15             Once we saw these images, what we believe we're seeing here is

16     the result of turning the soil over, in other words, exposing soil that

17     was underneath and breaking the top-soil, taking the vegetation away, and

18     then covering it up again.  So you would see this very differently from

19     the surrounding vegetation.  And also the shapes of the two features led

20     us to believe that these could be graves.  So we decided that we should

21     excavate -- well, initially it was only Lazete 1, which is the one on

22     top --

23        Q.   I'm sorry, can I stop you there for a minute.  Can you actually

24     mark on this image Lazete 1 -- LZ01.

25        A.   Pen went over it.  Can you see it?

Page 22745

 1        Q.   And then put in the -- for the lower site what its name is.

 2        A.   I don't know if you can see that.

 3        Q.   We can see that.  Thank you.  Please continue.

 4        A.   Because of the two dates -- I mean, we requested images in

 5     between the dates, but we were told that they didn't have them.  So we

 6     placed the dates of the original excavation of the primary grave-site

 7     between July 5th of 1995 and July 27th of 1995.

 8        Q.   Can you please put your initials in the bottom right-hand corner

 9     and then today's date, 11 January 2012.

10        A.   [Marks]

11             MR. MITCHELL:  And can I tender that, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4139, Your Honours.

14             MR. MITCHELL:

15        Q.   And just to summarise and round that off, it's your conclusion

16     that the bodies from that grave were placed there in a single interment

17     between the dates of 5 and 27 July 1995?

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.

19        Q.   And the last area I want to ask you a couple of questions about

20     are the probable blindfolds that were recovered from Lazete 1.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  And if we can go back to 65 ter 2482; that's

22     P4135.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Page?

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Page 23 in e-court.

25        Q.   It's page 22 of the physical report.

Page 22746

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's sufficient to upload the English

 2     version only.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Next page.  Is it correct -- right?

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  No.  It's the page --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's the next page.  You said hard copy

 7     page 22.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  You're right.  That's the correct page.  Thank

 9     you.

10        Q.   At the top of this page you describe how on 89 bodies there was

11     strips of material tied around the head and placed over the face or

12     directly associated to the head.  And you concluded that these were

13     probably used as blindfolds.  Now, can you explain why you concluded that

14     these 89 strips of pink material were probably blindfolds and not

15     something else.  For example, some kind of ceremonial headband.

16        A.   In -- what we were encountering here was a mass grave with no

17     clear funerary practices, disorganised bodies, no respect was shown as

18     far as the way the bodies were buried.  It seemed to be that this is

19     concurrent with a site of deposition of or execution of bodies, and the

20     pieces of cloth which were very similar seemed to have uniformity.  And

21     in most of the cases seemed to be covering the eyes.  The term "probable"

22     was used because in some instances they were not covering the eyes and

23     they were covering the mouth or in a couple of instances they might have

24     moved up to the forehead.  But in general they were covering the eyes.

25     And also because we found another 37 strips of material very particular,

Page 22747

 1     again scalloped edges and pink.  And we believe that these could also

 2     have been used as blindfolds and might have fell off the bodies.  I think

 3     you can see some of those -- there's an image of those in the report as

 4     well.  The colour I think is also something very important.  Pink is not

 5     some -- is not a colour that you would use to wear as a headband in a

 6     combat situation, I think.

 7        Q.   You found 34 strips of the same type of material in the Lazete 2C

 8     grave over the other side of the railway tracks.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Let me check on the number, but I believe so.  Yes, 34 strips of

10     material.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Peccerelli.  I have no further questions.

12        A.   You're welcome.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, I'm afraid the markings by this

15     witness of Lazete 1 and Lazete 2 on aerial image have been lost.  Do you

16     think we need to do that exercise again or ...?

17             MR. MITCHELL:  I could take him very briefly to the photo and

18     just have him quickly mark it.

19             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  Could we do that.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  It was 65 ter 3199 and page 146 in e-court.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. MITCHELL:

23        Q.   And when this comes up, Mr. Peccerelli, if you can just mark for

24     us the Lazete 1 and Lazete 2 sites.

25        A.   Of course.

Page 22748

 1        Q.   And if you could circle the actual grave areas within --

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And then initialise and date.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Peccerelli.  First of all, I'd

11     like to thank you for meeting up with the Defence.  I hope that that will

12     help us conduct this examination as simply as possible.  I see that

13     Mr. Mitchell even used that interview of ours to clarify a few matters,

14     so even he had some benefit from it and I thank him for it.

15             I would like to start with the very last matter.  On page 22, in

16     response to Mr. Mitchell's question about the possible bands, or rather,

17     you say these are possible blindfolds, he asked whether this was a

18     ceremonial thing.  You brought that into question -- actually, the

19     argumentation you provided was that the burial was not dignified and was

20     not carried out in accordance with religious customs and rites.  Was it

21     your understanding that these bands are used during religious burial

22     ceremonies?

23        A.   No, no, they are not.

24        Q.   But that was your answer.  In a way you expressed your doubt, you

25     doubted that these were ceremonial bands because there were no other

Page 22749

 1     elements that would be involved in a dignified religious burial.  Do you

 2     know - and up until our interview you had not known about this, your

 3     hosts in Bosnia had not informed you about this - do you know of the

 4     custom of wearing these headbands during combat and they're worn on the

 5     forehead.  And then if tissue decays, then the headband may fall down or

 6     slide down.  Do you know that this was customary among the Islamic

 7     fighters?

 8        A.   No, I do not.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Can you bring up the page of his report which shows

11     the probable blindfold.  E-court page is what?

12             MR. MITCHELL:  E-court page is 23.

13             JUDGE KWON:  23.  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

14             Mr. Karadzic, were you referring to these pictures when you asked

15     the witness about the ceremonial or customary thing?  Or your question

16     was in general?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I understood things correctly,

18     Mr. Mitchell brought this into doubt -- or rather, offered the

19     possibility of doubting whether these were ceremonial headbands.  On

20     page 22, Mr. Peccerelli said that he had not seen any other signs of a

21     ceremonial burial, and that therefore the conclusion could be drawn that

22     perhaps these were not headbands but rather blindfolds.  This led me to

23     think that Mr. Peccerelli perhaps thought that bands were used during

24     burials, not during fighting.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And what was your question, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 22750

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is that the case and does

 2     Mr. Peccerelli know that these bands were not used during burials?  On

 3     the contrary, they were used during fighting, combat.  So the absence of

 4     other elements of a religious burial does not say a thing about these

 5     bands because these bands are not used during burial ceremonies, but

 6     rather during a person's life and when that person goes into combat.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I think we heard the answer from the witness.  Let's

 8     carry on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So nevertheless, out of an abundance of caution, you used the

12     word "probable."  What led you to this relativisation, or rather, this

13     reservation?  What led you to do that?  For example, these very same

14     victims, did they have their hands tied or did they only have these

15     blindfolds or bands on their heads?

16        A.   What led me and the team to put "probable" was because some of

17     them were not placed directly over the eyes and had been moved due to the

18     movement of the bodies being placed in the grave as well as

19     decomposition.  Also the fact that we also found 37 more.  They were not

20     directly on the bodies but because they were the same type of material,

21     mostly all of the same colour, and mostly all with scalloped edges, we

22     believed that this could also have been probable blindfolds and that's

23     what led us to use that term.

24             As far as -- let's see, two of them had their hands tied behind

25     their back and those are listed in the report.  The rest we found no

Page 22751

 1     evidence of them having restraints.  Only, like I mentioned at the

 2     beginning, there was a third body that had a strip of material that was

 3     placed around both thighs and then went into the lower leg.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that under such circumstances when

 5     people cannot be differentiated on the basis of race, language, faith,

 6     combatants are marked by such ribbons or other markings in order to

 7     prevent friendly fire?

 8        A.   No, I do not.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that these two persons, these two

10     victims, with tied hands did not have any blindfolds on?

11        A.   You would have to give me a second to check.  These are body 549

12     and 560 according to the report.  Yes, body 549 did not have a blindfold

13     and body 560 -- however, body 560 did according to the exhumation form.

14        Q.   And where was that band in the case of that particular body?

15        A.   Over the eyes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any explanation or any way of

17     understanding why people who were being shot at and who did not have

18     their hands tied would suffer having some blindfold on their eyes when,

19     quite simply, they could tear them off by moving their hands?

20        A.   My only explanation for that would be the overwhelming amount of

21     ballistic evidence at the site, and to think that they were probably --

22     probably shot rather quickly and did not have a chance or were probably

23     afraid to take them off if they were told not to take them off.  If they

24     would, they would probably be shot.  That's my only explanation.

25        Q.   And how and in which way did you rule out the possibility that

Page 22752

 1     these were not executions in the case of persons who did not have their

 2     hands tied?  How did you rule out that possibility?  Actually, during our

 3     interview you said that no one had informed you about 44 months of heavy

 4     fighting in that area, 44 months of heavy fighting.  No one told you that

 5     you might come across such graves and such victims.  Isn't that right?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct, nobody informed me that there was 44 months

 7     of fighting in the area.

 8        Q.   And was it beyond reasonable doubt and by applying which method

 9     did you rule out the possibility that these victims were the victims of

10     combat?  Basically you were seriously restricted by this lack of

11     information to the effect that there had been 44 months of heavy

12     fighting.  Had you known about that, you probably would have done things

13     differently or at least some things.  Could you rule out the possibility

14     of these people having died in combat?

15        A.   Well, here I must say that to answer this question you cannot

16     only do it with the excavation part of the investigation.  This type of

17     an investigation has to be approached with a multi-disciplinary approach

18     and I would need the information, first of all, of the traumas that each

19     one of these bodies was sustained.  There is specific information,

20     there's actual studies conducted by Dr. Snow and Jose Pablo Baraybar that

21     shows that during 60 years and 25 different conventional combat you only

22     expect to have fatal wounds in 0.199 of the wounds of the people wounded

23     which means that only two out of ten wounds are fatal in combat.  And

24     this is shown in 25 different combats all over the world during 60 years.

25     If I had the information of the traumas that these people suffered, I

Page 22753

 1     could probably put them into this frequency of fatal wound formula and

 2     tell you that with a high degree of probability.

 3             The other thing I would do is I know for a fact that ICMP has

 4     been working on the DNA identification of these bodies.  I would see if

 5     these are, in fact, the victims of Srebrenica that have been identified

 6     here and that would also help me to ascertain whether the testimony that

 7     says that the people were taken to this site and executed here are the

 8     same people that were, in fact, taken from Srebrenica.

 9             So I would definitely answer your question more completely with

10     all of that information, but the excavation part of this investigation

11     tells us that we did find a -- once again, a primary grave with

12     127 bodies.  Two other bodies were found in a drainage ditch.  Two of

13     these bodies had hands tied behind their back and 89 bodies had these

14     cloths over their faces.  The way the bodies were placed in the grave

15     were -- gives me at least -- leads me to believe that they were pushed in

16     with some type of machinery, and that also put some of the top-soil

17     within the bodies.  And also the fact that I -- we did not find any

18     markings on these headbands, we did not find any weapons, I mean all of

19     those things would have to be taken into account for me to be able to

20     make that type of a conclusion.  The evidence here tells me that there's

21     nothing that I can see that leads me to believe that this was combat

22     deaths.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you are conducting your

24     cross-examination not only in the capacity of an accused but also as

25     counsel who represent yourself.  So I'm asking you in that latter

Page 22754

 1     capacity, is it your case that the people whose pictures we are seeing in

 2     front of us died as a result of combat?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, my case is that an

 4     enormous number of victims died in combat.  Yesterday we heard from a

 5     witness that we -- that they left behind the victims of bombings and the

 6     Serbs later buried them.  That is what we were told by a witness, a

 7     Muslim, who was part of that column that was leaving.  I can prove that

 8     the presence of leafs and a surface layer clearly indicates that bodies

 9     were gathered from the surface and then interred in a newly dug grave.

10     Even Mr. Peccerelli himself says that there was some dust there, that is

11     to say, soil coming from the surface.  That means that these bodies had

12     spent a certain amount of time on the surface.

13             JUDGE KWON:  And that theory applies to both Lazete 1 and

14     Lazete 2?  Is that your case?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I don't know whether

16     there were some executions, but blindfolds without having these persons'

17     hands tied are illogical.  We saw video clips of Islamic fighters with

18     the headbands going into combat.  Mr. Peccerelli himself says that

19     sometimes these bands were on the eyes or on the nose or further down, so

20     I am challenging executions in obvious cases.  Let the Prosecution prove,

21     for instance, who executed 12 tied men.  That is not debatable at all.

22     However, there were so many victims of 44 months of heavy fighting,

23     warfare, and all of that is being put under "executions" and that is what

24     I am challenging and that is what I can prove.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.  Please carry on.

Page 22755

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, is that the only explanation of the varying

 3     degree of degradation of the bodies involved?  How and in which way do

 4     you rule out the possibility of burials taking place in several stages,

 5     that is to say, after fighting existing graves were increased by adding

 6     further bodies into them.  Isn't that another viable possibility?

 7        A.   In Lazete 1 and Lazete 2, that is not a possibility.  These

 8     graves were homogenous in their shape, their depth.  The bodies were

 9     placed with no strata of foreign soil between them.  All they had was

10     clumps of top-soil that were, again, a result of the bodies being pushed

11     in with machinery at one single time.

12             During my experience, once again, of excavating over 1400

13     different cases and close to 20.000 sets of human remains, we can tell as

14     anthropologists and archaeologists when graves are disturbed.  And, as a

15     matter of fact, it is customary in Guatemala when a cemetery runs out of

16     room to bury several bodies in one grave.  And even the people who work

17     at the cemeteries disturb the other bodies when they do this.  So you

18     expect to see some degree of disturbance in the graves, definitely

19     different degree of preservation as far as the anatomical positioning of

20     the bones in relationship to each other, in other words, the articulation

21     of the bones and of the bodies.  There's nothing in these two graves that

22     tell us that.  There's no evidence of these graves coming at a later time

23     or on top of earlier graves.

24        Q.   Are you speaking about the procedure of burial in Guatemala in

25     war time or peace time?

Page 22756

 1        A.   I would have to say both.

 2        Q.   I am a little bit baffled now by something.  You said that you

 3     believe or that you established - and if you did, would you please tell

 4     us how - that before the 5th of July there were no burials in these

 5     two locations.  Is that correct?  Were you able to rule that out?

 6        A.   What I said was that I believe that this -- these two graves were

 7     dug between the date of July 5th and July 27th, and that was established

 8     because of the aerial images we have.  The fact that there were no

 9     previous burials was established by the stratographic methodology used to

10     conduct the archeological excavation and exhumation of the bodies.  In

11     other words, like I mentioned previously, the uniformity of the graves,

12     the way the bodies were laid on top of each other, the articulation of

13     these bodies, it's a clear sign that these graves did not disturb other

14     graves.  We also don't have remains from other bodies from previous

15     excavations being disturbed by these bodies.  There are no features

16     within any one of these two graves that these interrupted previous

17     burials.

18             What we do have in both graves is that when these were dug there

19     was a pre-existing excavation that carried within it a water-pipe and we

20     found that.  We were able to see that these two graves cut into

21     pre-existing ditches that carried water-pipes in them.  So this type of

22     evidence is something that we can see in the ground.  We did not see this

23     with any other type of grave.  We did not see any feature whatsoever that

24     would lead us to believe that there was previous graves in any one of the

25     two locations where we exhumed Lazete 1 and Lazete 2.

Page 22757

 1        Q.   Thank you.  These two bodies in Lazete 1 that were found in the

 2     canal, was the canal filled up?

 3        A.   If you're referring to the drainage ditch, yes, it had soil over

 4     them.  These were not graves but the bodies were on the surface but

 5     covered with soil.  And these bodies also had the probable blindfolds and

 6     they were in the same stage of decomposition as the ones in the graves.

 7     As I said in my report, I believe that these two bodies were -- probably

 8     fell there during the robbing incident that occurred later during that

 9     year and were covered over by the machinery.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And now, to what extent did these ditches correspond

11     to the direction of the water-pipes or did they intersect each other?

12     More precisely, at what angle did the damage to the water-pipes occur or

13     did the direction of the ditch or the canal and the water-pipes

14     correspond exactly in direction and degree?

15        A.   There is an image --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload it?  I think it's e-court page 18 if

17     I'm correct in number.

18             THE WITNESS:  In the report it's page number 12 of the report.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  That will be e-court page 13 --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  -- Mr. President.

23             THE WITNESS:  Here you can see evidence of this pre-existing

24     excavation of the water-pipe, and in the image below, the -- a little

25     higher, please, it says figure 19, in that one you can see how the grave

Page 22758

 1     was dug on top of this and intersects the water-pipe.  Now, if you go to

 2     the lower image, I would say that the -- the question was what angle.

 3     It's --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  The bottom part.

 5             THE WITNESS:  The bottom part, there we go.  It looks like the

 6     grave sort of falls obliquely over -- over the ditch that carried the

 7     water-pipe -- not the ditch, the excavation that carried this water-pipe.

 8     The drainage ditch ran in the southern part of the grave, more or less

 9     where the arrows are coming from.  So we're talking about different

10     features.  We're talking about a drainage ditch that was sort of a

11     natural feature in the soil and then we're talking about an excavation

12     that carried a water-pipe in it.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have anything to say with respect to page 18,

14     hard copy page 17?  We upload it.

15             THE WITNESS:  This what you can see here in the background, this

16     is a secondary pipe that just fell along the ditch.  We did not -- it's

17     not mapped in because it wasn't -- there wasn't an excavation that the

18     grave itself cut into.  The other one we found particularly interesting

19     because the grave itself intersected that excavation and led us to see

20     that there was a pre-existing water-pipe that had been severed and later

21     reconnected.  Once again, these two bodies were not in the grave.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Are these the two bodies that were found in the canal or the

Page 22759

 1     channel, the one that you referred to as the drainage ditch?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.  This is one of them.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Peccerelli, how did you rule out the possibility

 4     that this was an old trench from which there was firing, a firing

 5     position which after it was captured was widened and used as a location

 6     for burial?

 7        A.   I'm sorry to say that that was not something that we considered.

 8     What I did -- I mean, what you can see here, there is a grave, a mass

 9     grave, 10, 15 metres away.  And if you look at -- there's an image, one

10     of the aerial images on report page 11.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Page 12 in e-court.

12             THE WITNESS:  If you could -- yeah, the lower -- there we go,

13     that one.  The location of those two bodies is directly where those --

14     there's a -- I don't know if you can --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE WITNESS:  I could mark it.  See, these images are from

17     September, September 7th and September 27th, and you can see how the

18     grave was one size on September 7th and then there was a disturbance

19     again where you can see -- you can actually see tracks, you can see

20     tracks here and you can also see tracks here.  Those two bodies laid

21     around this area here.  So the conclusion that these two bodies were a

22     result of the robbing excavation comes from the evidence seen in the

23     aerial images.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And how did you rule out the possibility that the grave was

Page 22760

 1     refilled, that there were subsequent burials there?  How did you conclude

 2     that the changes were a result of additional burial because fighting was

 3     still underway?

 4        A.   Once again, the grave showed no evidence of having any bodies,

 5     any additional bodies, being put into it.  What it had was evidence of

 6     bodies being taken out of it.  And this was shown by the creation of body

 7     parts around the robbing excavations as well as the truncation or

 8     segmentation of bodies around the edges of the robbing excavation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Would you kindly initial and date this marking.

10             THE WITNESS:  Is it working?

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.  We'll admit this

14     marked photo as Exhibit -- as a Defence exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1989, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, would similar things happen with bodies that

19     would have been collected from the surface using machinery from a

20     different location which had spent a longer period of time on the surface

21     which were degraded, segmented, would those bodies be damaged if they

22     were brought to this location?  Would we have fragmented bodies?

23        A.   Well, first of all, if you had a surface -- bodies that laid on

24     the surface for prolonged periods of time would show evidence of --

25     decomposition works very differently when bodies are left in the surface.

Page 22761

 1     You would have probably quicker skeletonisation.  You would probably have

 2     gnaw marks from animals, sun exposure to the bones which causes

 3     bleaching, probably disarticulation due to also animal activity.  If you

 4     then recovered those bodies and placed them within this grave, they would

 5     look very differently.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  May I direct your attention to paragraph 8 -- to

 7     section VIII of Lazete 2 and to its characteristics.  And you state here

 8     that the grave represents the place of multiple mass primary burial of

 9     human remains covered by dug-over earth and with yellow --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We need time to find the

11     place where Mr. Karadzic is reading from.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, interpreters have difficulty following

13     you.  Why don't we upload it.  The second report, page?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 14.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can you please see where it says below the bodies -- and

17     immediately below the same bodies clumps of earth were found surface

18     layer --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Are you referring to Lazete 1 or 2?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm speaking about what we're

21     seeing on the screen now.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I'm afraid this is related to Lazete 1.

23             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think Dr. Karadzic is reading

25     from Lazete 2.  It's 65 ter 11151 and page 14 in e-court.

Page 22762

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  And that's section VIII, the grave and its

 3     properties.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but the title of both documents on the same

 5     page was identical.  That's the reason of confusion.  Thank you.

 6             Is this it, Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that it is and I think that

 8     it's instructive and we should keep it on the screen for a while.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   So do you agree that it states here that below the -- "large

11     pieces of turf, top-soil, and clay were found under and directly over the

12     bodies within the grave.  The mixed nature of the soil grave fill and the

13     disorganised interment of the bodies was probably the result of the

14     bodies being pushed into the grave ..." and so on.

15             How does the thesis seem to you, Mr. Peccerelli, that the bodies

16     were gathered up from a surface whereby the machinery also caught up

17     pieces of turf that happened to be below and above the bodies?  Are you

18     able to rule this out?

19        A.   If I understand correctly, I think we are saying exactly the same

20     thing.  I'm saying that these bodies were on the surface and were pushed

21     into the grave, and that that took some of the -- you see -- on this

22     picture you can see how there is a mound of dirt in the background.  When

23     you dig a grave you have to displace the -- to make the hole you have to

24     take the dirt out of it.  So there's a combination.  Let's say the bodies

25     were laying left of this grave and then they were pushed in, you were --

Page 22763

 1     you're going to take some of the top-soil and some of the soil that was

 2     excavated along with the bodies if you use machinery.  It's different

 3     than when you use -- when you place them in the grave manually when you

 4     would only pick up the bodies and place them usually in order and usually

 5     with no --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Why don't we lower the picture to

 7     see the entire picture.  Yes.

 8             Please continue, Mr. Peccerelli.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Oh, I think I'm done.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  How can we rule out and can we rule out a loader

12     gathering the bodies from the surface, whereby also it would catch turf

13     below and above the bodies.  So it would not be bodies pushed in but

14     being gathered from different locations and transported together?  How

15     can you rule that out?  Because pushing does not necessarily mean that

16     turf would be disturbed that is below the bodies.  A loader with a very

17     sharp bucket definitely would collect or pick up turf.

18        A.   I -- what you're describing specifically is exactly what I'm

19     saying.  Obviously I cannot rule it out.  That is the same exact

20     mechanism whether it be a bulldozer or a front-loader.  Both machines

21     have the capacity to turn over top-soil and pick it up and then are

22     delicate enough to only pick up the bodies.  So that can happen.

23     Obviously the evidence here not only within the grave but around the

24     grave suggests that there was shooting going on in this specific place

25     and, you know, because of its isolated location it would be logical to

Page 22764

 1     think that the bodies in the grave came from the surface.

 2        Q.   But also there is the possibility that they came from a different

 3     one; is that right?

 4        A.   I guess the possibility does exist, however remote it might seem

 5     contemplating the whole investigation.

 6        Q.   Are you able to tell us what does it mean that a place is a

 7     multiple mass primary interment site of human remains?

 8        A.   Yes, once again, this is a -- what that means by definition is a

 9     grave.  Primary which means that it was -- for the first time that

10     location was being used to deposit bodies into it.  Multiple bodies means

11     that there were more than one.  There is no specific number.  In this

12     case you would have to look at how many bodies the PHR exhumations

13     collected.  We only collected 16 bodies and I believe 26 body parts from

14     this exhumation, but that's -- that's what it means, that there was --

15     this was a hole that was created and turned into a grave when multiple

16     bodies were placed into it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at that part of the

18     text in English on the screen so that we can see how this "multiple"

19     looks in English.  Can we look at the text.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Before that, Mr. Peccerelli, what did you follow when you were

22     excavating?  What did you follow -- [In English] Just a moment.

23             "The grave is a multiple mass primary interment site of human

24     remains ..."

25             "Multiple."

Page 22765

 1             [Interpretation] Does that not mean that the burial was carried

 2     out in several goes?

 3        A.   I can see how there is a misunderstanding but that's not what I

 4     meant.  What I meant was that this was a primary mass grave, and in this

 5     specific case you have to remember that there was four different

 6     excavations on this site.  The original or primary excavation of the

 7     site; the later robbing excavation of the site; the later PHR

 8     excavations, which were two; and then finally the excavation we carried

 9     out in 2000.

10        Q.   But it's still not clear to me why you use the term "multiple"

11     instead of mass grave.

12        A.   "Multiple" meaning more than one body, same thing as "mass."  I

13     did not mean several different interments.  That would not be -- see, the

14     terms are contradictory.  You cannot have in a primary grave multiple

15     because the repeating excavation into a primary grave would make a

16     secondary interment.

17        Q.   And how would you describe or call a grave where for the first

18     time in several stages a number of bodies are buried and bodies are

19     added?  How would you refer to that type of grave?

20        A.   Well, the original grave would be a primary grave with secondary

21     interment into it, and each one of those secondary interments would be

22     described as a secondary excavation and a secondary deposit of human

23     remains into it.  They would be considered disturbances of the primary

24     grave.

25        Q.   Even though these additional bodies would be buried for the first

Page 22766

 1     and only time, you would still refer to it as a secondary grave even

 2     though those bodies that were additionally buried would actually be

 3     buried for the first and only time; is that correct?

 4        A.   The term "primary" refers to the incursion into the soil, not the

 5     body itself.  So you're talking about the excavation being the primary

 6     excavation.  Any excavation you conduct into an existing grave would be a

 7     secondary one and the patterns of it are very different.  So you can

 8     deposit a body for the first time, but if you open an existing primary

 9     grave you will be conducting a secondary interment.

10        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, I'm a doctor, and from what I know, secondary

11     burial means that one body was buried in one place and then reburied.

12     How is this possible that your terminology is different from mine?  A

13     secondary grave means that the body was transferred from another place

14     and buried for the second time.  Yes or no?

15        A.   You see, we are talking about different things.  You're talking

16     about bodies being removed and then reburied in a different place.  I'm

17     talking about incursions into a primary grave which is something that we

18     don't see here so you're talking about something that did not occur.  We

19     don't have any secondary disturbances of the primary excavation here.

20     What we have is a single event with posterior disturbances of the grave

21     to extract bodies not to put bodies in them.

22        Q.   And how do you explain the surface layer between certain bodies?

23     There would be a layer of bodies, then there would be a layer of surface

24     or top-soil, then a thin layer of top-soil, then another layer of bodies.

25     If not by additional burial, how do you explain that this top-soil layer

Page 22767

 1     was over one set of bodies and below another set of bodies?

 2        A.   Once again, they are not layers, they are pieces.  They are

 3     pieces of turf, top-soil.  These are not stratography layers that cover

 4     an entire area.  These are just pieces of turf and top-soil and clay.

 5             Again, I explain it by the same definition you gave, machinery

 6     picking up bodies and taking top-soil and pieces of clay with it and then

 7     throwing them into the grave, pushing them into the grave.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I note the time.  It's time -- about

 9     time to take a break now, and given that we have a somewhat longer break

10     due to technical difficulties and that we have about three hours from now

11     on until the end of today, so we are minded to have two short breaks,

12     i.e., two half-an-hour breaks and with two one-hour sessions.  I hope

13     that would be okay with the staff.  Okay.  We'll do that.

14             We'll take a half-an-hour break now and resume at 12.30.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Peccerelli, when did you carry out this exhumation?

21        A.   We began on the 13th of July, 2000, all the way to the

22     8th of August of the same year.  Yeah, between the 13th of July to the

23     8th of August.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Who was the man in charge during that exhumation?

25     Who was the main person there, if you will?

Page 22768

 1        A.   You mean from ICTY?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   The team leader at the time was Brian Strongman.  He is, I think,

 4     a retired Canadian Mounted Police if I'm not mistaken.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 4 you say that a senior forensic archaeologist

 6     appointed a supervisor.  Who were the two in this particular case?

 7        A.   In this particular case, since I was the deputy in an absence of

 8     Richard Wright who was contracted as the senior forensic archaeologist

 9     for the entire season, I was the acting senior forensic archaeologist and

10     I assigned different archaeologists to be the co-ordinator at the site.

11        Q.   Who did you appoint as the supervisor?

12        A.   The senior archaeologists all got a chance to be supervisors.

13     So, for example, Ian Hanson, Claudia Rivera, Jon Sterenberg,

14     Gaille McKinnon as well.  There is a list of the people who participated

15     in the team, and we had senior personnel and junior personnel.  The four

16     people that I mentioned, Claudia Rivera, Gaille McKinnon, Ian Hanson and

17     Jon Sterenberg, were the co-ordinators or the supervisors at the grave.

18        Q.   Could you please cast a glance at chapter V, where you say in

19     paragraph 4 that the senior forensic archaeologist shall appoint an

20     exhumation supervisor, shall direct the excavators within the grave.  Who

21     was that?

22        A.   Once again, one week it was Claudia Rivera, another week it was

23     Jon Sterenberg, Gaille McKinnon and Ian Hanson.

24        Q.   I see.  Thank you.  Are you the first and only ones who dealt

25     with Lazete 2?

Page 22769

 1        A.   No and no.  We were not the first and we were not the only ones.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Who, when, and to what extent worked before you at

 3     that location?

 4        A.   From limited knowledge I have, it was a team of Physicians for

 5     Human Rights led by Dr. Bill Haglund sometime in 1996.  To what extent, I

 6     believe they only worked in two areas of grave -- of Lazete 2.  They

 7     found two body concentrations there.

 8        Q.   Aha.  And then after that, four years after that, you worked

 9     there; right?

10        A.   That is correct, four years after that I worked there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you describe that in your report, namely, that

12     you came after this intervention, or rather, after this work of Doctors

13     for Human Rights, Dr. Haglund, Dr. Kirschner and so on?

14        A.   I believe so.  I would have to find it, if you give me a second.

15     That would be on page 2 of the Lazete report, in the summary findings,

16     section (f).

17             "In 1996, the PHR exhumation team conducted an investigation at

18     this very site.  They identified two graves, they named these Lazete 2A

19     and Lazete 2 B."

20        Q.   And what happened then?  Do you know that under the supervision

21     of Dr. Kirschner an exhumation was carried out and conclusions were drawn

22     up in relation to the cause and mode of death as well as a revision of

23     the final autopsy findings?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer.

25             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Page 22770

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can just clarify the question.  I think the

 2     evidence is Dr. Haglund was in charge of the exhumation.  Dr. Kirschner

 3     was the chief pathologist at the morgue.  So if that could just be

 4     clarified.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Are you content with that clarification,

 6     Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can understand that from

 8     the documents that I see before me and that I'm going to tender when

 9     Dr. Haglund comes.  However, this is what I'm interested in.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Did you know that at that point in time exhumations were carried

12     out and that autopsies were carried out and that autopsy reports were

13     drawn up that were revised with the assistance of Mr. McCloskey, the

14     legal advisor of the Tribunal?

15        A.   I had knowledge of the exhumations and I guess it's logical for

16     them to have rendered reports, but that's as far as I know.

17        Q.   Thank you.  How does that affect your work?

18        A.   Which part?

19        Q.   Lazete 2, is that the same location or not?

20        A.   No -- yes, of course it is.  If you mean -- I mean how does the

21     report affect my work or how does the excavation affect my work?

22        Q.   How does their excavation affect your conclusions on layers,

23     positions, and so on?  So somebody touched the grave four years before

24     you did, under conditions of heavy rainfall, bad weather in general, and

25     so on, and then after that, you draw conclusions about the content of the

Page 22771

 1     soil there and so on and so forth.

 2        A.   Yes, okay.  Actually, as I mentioned earlier, this grave, it was

 3     37.7 metres in length.  When the PHR team exhumed, they did not -- as I

 4     understand it, they did not conduct a surface recovery or a removal of

 5     the top-soil or the layer on top of the grave.  What they did was -- I

 6     believe was trench and when they did that they found two accumulations of

 7     bodies and they named these Lazete 2A and B.  The way we dealt with that

 8     was we had the initial excavation of the grave.  Then you have the

 9     robbing excavations.  Then you have the PHR excavations.  And then you

10     have our excavations.  And these are clearly marked in the report.  And

11     simply what we did was describe what we found.  What they had done was

12     similar to the robbing excavations except they were more thorough because

13     they removed the bodies by hand, they exhumed these bodies by hand,

14     whereas during the subsequent robbing excavations they were removed by

15     machinery and created body parts and also segmented some of the bodies

16     that were left.

17             If you allow me, I'll show you what page is this on.

18             JUDGE KWON:  How about page 16, e-court 17?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, that --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you explain it.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- yes.  It will be coming up.  If necessary,

23     you can mark the drawings here.

24             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  The initial grave was the entire extent.

25     This is what we call Lazete 2C, which is [marks].

Page 22772

 1             Then you have robbing excavations A, which occurred here, and B

 2     which occurred here.  The PHR team located --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we change the colour now to blue.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Sure.  They excavated this area here and this area

 5     here, from which I believe or at least I was told there they recovered

 6     complete bodies.  So what you have here is similar to what you had in

 7     Lazete 1, that there was removal of bodies and segmentation in the

 8     two areas marked in red, but the two areas marked in green, the bodies

 9     were not removed and they were found complete.  Those are the two areas

10     that the Physicians for Human Rights team exhumed in 1996, and we later

11     took out -- again using the stratographic method took out the contents of

12     the grave and left the profile of the grave.  That's how we can find

13     those features.  Shall I ...?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

15             THE WITNESS:  And if you want, I can also do this.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   So if I understand this correctly, there were two exhumations in

18     this grave before you came there.  However, did they cover up the grave

19     after that or did they just leave it open?

20        A.   When we found it, the grave was covered.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, that marked diagram will be admitted as D1990.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So before you there were at least two excavations and possibly

25     some unauthorised excavation.  Does that mean that you came to a grave

Page 22773

 1     where there had been different physical manipulations and that then you

 2     drew your own conclusions?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that there had been an investigation

 5     about that first one.  C.E. Moore, have you heard of that person who

 6     worked with Dr. Kirschner and Dr. Haglund?  I don't know if it's a lady

 7     or a gentleman, but this person did take part in this excavation in 1996.

 8        A.   I'm sorry, I wasn't there in 1996.  I don't know who you're

 9     talking about.

10        Q.   Have you heard of professional challenges, disputes, conflicts in

11     relation to Lazete 2 and that there had been some investigation that had

12     been carried out among an association of pathologists or something like

13     that in America?

14        A.   No.  The only thing I heard prior to the excavation in Lazete 2

15     during the excavation of Lazete 1 was that someone from the original team

16     said that there was still bodies in that grave and that they wanted it to

17     be exhumed.  That's it.

18             JUDGE BAIRD:  Doctor, now you mentioned, Doctor, that you drew

19     your conclusions when you came to the grave where there had been

20     different physical manipulations.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, would this have affected your conclusion in

23     any way at all?

24             THE WITNESS:  Well, what we can see was that there had been

25     interventions into the grave and that was documented.  But, you know, in

Page 22774

 1     the end what we concluded that this grave had been disturbed several

 2     times and we concluded more on our findings and less on what was not

 3     there.  So, in other words, the original contents of this grave I -- I

 4     cannot testify to.  I don't know how many bodies were exhumed by the

 5     Physicians for Human Rights team nor do I know how many bodies were taken

 6     away from those two robbing areas.  But from the size of this grave, it

 7     is a substantial-sized grave, there was probably a lot of bodies in

 8     there.

 9             Would it have affected -- I mean, obviously if I would have

10     excavated this grave before any of this had happened, the results would

11     have been different because the findings would have been different.  I

12     don't know if that answers the question.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Did you know that during that first excavation when the

16     conclusions were being formulated, Mr. Peter McCloskey, who represented

17     the OTP, took part in that drafting process?

18        A.   No, I don't know that -- I didn't hear anything about that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And did you hear of this investigation carried out in

20     San Antonio in relation to the first exhumation of 1996?

21        A.   I'm sorry, I haven't heard of any such investigation --

22        Q.   [In English] Inquiry, sort of inquiry and -- [Interpretation] You

23     haven't heard of that; right?

24        A.   No, personally, no.  I don't know what it pertains to.

25        Q.   This first exhumation from 1996 was professionally contested and

Page 22775

 1     led to professional disputes within the ranks of that team from 1996, and

 2     all of this led to an inquiry in San Antonio and a professional debate as

 3     well.  I'm not aware of the ultimate conclusions reached, but I certainly

 4     know that this had been investigated.  Now, was it a court of honour or

 5     something like that, but anyway, there was this debate in San Antonio and

 6     there was a professional dispute with regard to that team.

 7        A.   Is there a question?

 8        Q.   Well, you asked me to explain what this was all about.  So it

 9     means that that first team worked and then that led to a dispute --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the witness said he didn't know.

11     Let's carry on.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  But my understanding

14     was that the witness wanted me to clarify what it was that I meant.  [In

15     English] "I don't know what pertains to."  [Interpretation] Line 4,

16     page 50, and that led me to try to explain.

17             Could we have the previous page now, the one with the photograph.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   What was it that you followed in the case of this grave?  What

20     was it that you followed in order to get to this shape?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the previous page.  Can

22     somebody please help me with this.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Page 16, Lazete 2.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This one is different from the one we had had in colour.  Tell

Page 22776

 1     me, what was it that you followed?  I mean, how did you -- yes.

 2        A.   Okay.  As I mentioned earlier, what we do is a stratographic

 3     excavation.  In other words, we excavate -- we remove the contents of the

 4     grave strata by strata from the inside and we do this by separating the

 5     fill from the original soil.  Now, what you see here on the walls is the

 6     original -- some of it is the original grave, others is parts that have

 7     been altered by robbing excavations.  And you can see this on the left

 8     side where there's actual pieces that were taken away.  If you want I can

 9     mark more or less where by -- you can see within those are machine marks

10     made as they were taking parts of the grave away.  And the parts that are

11     higher, where the bodies are, are the ones that were left behind.  This

12     is the same methodology we used in Lazete 1.  And the difference is that

13     the fill is loose, so it's fairly easy to remove.

14        Q.   Thank you.  What I meant was actually how you got the idea to

15     move in this direction and how to dig such a deep trench, if you will.

16     Were you guided by the previous excavation of 1996 or something else in

17     that effort?

18        A.   Sorry -- no, actually what we did was we took the top layer off

19     and we could see the outline of the grave in the ground.  We then

20     proceeded to extract, take away, excavate the fill from within the grave

21     and we took it away, we removed it, as far down as there was fill, in

22     other words, till we found the original or virgin soil of the region.

23        Q.   Thank you.  A moment ago you mentioned that the previous team in

24     1996 had found some bodies in a trench.  How was it that you ruled out

25     the possibility of that having been a combat position during one of those

Page 22777

 1     44 months and that it was then used for a burial?

 2        A.   Once again, I didn't know about the 44 months you mentioned, so

 3     it wasn't something I had to rule out.  And I was told that the PHR team

 4     had worked there and we were more or less given the locations of where

 5     they worked.  So what the new findings were, whether these were not two

 6     separate graves but they were part of one larger grave.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just wait.

 8             Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Mitchell, do you think we need to keep this

 9     marked photo?

10             MR. MITCHELL:  It might be safe just to make sense of the

11     transcript, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That's sensible.  Yes, we'll keep as the

13     next Defence exhibit, Exhibit D1991 [Realtime transcript read in error

14     "1999"].  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   What about this, where is the water-pipe that you referred to?

19     Was it in this grave?

20        A.   There is another water-pipe in this grave as well.  I could show

21     you in the picture.  You can actually see it in two places.  If you look

22     at the picture on the cover.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             THE WITNESS:  And also on page 12 of the report.  You might want

25     to look at page 12 of the report initially and then you can see the

Page 22778

 1     picture.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The first page of this report.  Or page 12, yes.

 3     E-court page 13, I take it.  14?  Did you refer to this diagram?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  You can see -- may I mark it?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.  Did you push the button?  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS:  This was the water-pipe here and it's cut off right

 7     about there by the grave and then it gets reconnected up top.  But that's

 8     the original -- that's the one running right above the line I made.  And

 9     you can visually see it in the photograph that's on the cover.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  And what is this diagonal line that we see, but I

12     don't see the marking that lies north to east?  What does that line

13     indicate?

14        A.   Should I change the colour?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Change the colour, yes.  Let us change the colour,

16     yes.

17             THE WITNESS:  If that's the one you mean, that's the reconnection

18     of the water-pipe.  Once it was severed by the grave, it had to be

19     reconnected up top.  So it's another water-pipe.

20             JUDGE KWON:  So it's not legible very much.  It says "new pipe."

21     Is it correct?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And then the -- on the old pipe you wrote down "pipe

24     out" in both places?  The characters are so small.  It reads --

25             THE WITNESS:  It says "new pipe" and "pipe" --

Page 22779

 1             JUDGE KWON:  "Out."

 2             THE WITNESS:  -- "out."

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And "pipe disconnected," how does it read?  With an

 4     arrow -- left to the arrow.

 5             THE WITNESS:  "Reconnected."

 6             JUDGE KWON:  "Pipes reconnected."  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Before we save this, could I ask you to mark this ditch that you

10     mentioned, saying that the first team had found some bodies in that

11     ditch.

12        A.   Oh, they marked two trenches which they did directly over the

13     grave.  You can't see them, let's see, because they were extracted as

14     they removed the bodies.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And then can we please save this if it cannot be

16     marked.  I would like to draw your attention now to --

17             JUDGE KWON:  So did you refer to Lazete 2A and B?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So you can mark the places here without any

20     difficulty.

21             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22             JUDGE KWON:  If you could mark A and B as well.

23             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted as Exhibit D1992.

25     I note the previous one was 1991, not 1999.

Page 22780

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can we mark where this ditch or trench was, to the north or in a

 3     different place, this part where they found the two bodies?

 4        A.   I think you're mistaken.  The two bodies that were found in the

 5     drainage ditch were in Lazete 1.  This is Lazete 2.  We only found bodies

 6     inside the grave here.

 7        Q.   [Microphone not activated] Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  I'm

 8     talking about the two ditches that you mentioned that had to do with the

 9     excavations from 1996 and which cannot be seen now.  Do you know the

10     position?  Was that below the grave or above the grave?

11        A.   From -- I don't know the position, but if that's -- if the way

12     they found the two body concentrations were through trenching, then those

13     trenches are invisible because they were expanded into areas of the grave

14     and can only be seen by the -- by the areas where the grave extends

15     outside of its original form.  Which can be seen in page 16 which we saw

16     earlier.

17        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Can I now ask you to look at chapter IV

18     about the artefacts that were found in the grave and around the grave.

19     You say that shells were found, live rounds, bullets, ribbons, hand

20     watches, soil samples, parts of pipes, documents, bags with clothing, and

21     all other artefacts that were not found with the bodies themselves.  And

22     you say that 830 such objects were found in this operation.  Is that

23     correct?

24        A.   I'm afraid it's not this section.  I don't know where it is.

25     Maybe VI?

Page 22781

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No, do you see in front of you in the monitor,

 2     that's page 6 of your second report, Lazete 2, artefacts.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Let's see.  Yes.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This corresponds to what I have in front of me.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  I've got it, yes.  Yes.  This is correct.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And 830 items were found that were recorded in the

 8     evidence log.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Let me look for a second.  Yes, 830 artefacts.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Using metal detectors and visually you found and were

11     able to see shell casings in the grave and around the grave.  However,

12     you found a much larger number, and if you look at section VI, a large

13     number of shell cases, 671, more shell cases than live rounds.  You

14     recovered only 46 of those.  My thesis is that we cannot rule out that

15     this place was defensive position, a location where there was combat,

16     from where there was firing at another location, isn't that right, that

17     this option cannot be ruled out?  We have trenches, we have shell cases,

18     we have bullets, we have watches, we have documents, we have thus

19     something that a prisoner of war would not have on him but a fighter

20     would?

21        A.   No, can't be ruled out I guess.  Once again I think you would

22     have to look at the entire investigation in the multi-disciplinary

23     approach.  This is one part of the investigation where we did find shell

24     cases that were on surface, maybe just below the surface, and that's with

25     the metal detectors.  And yes, I do agree that this was a place where

Page 22782

 1     firing did occur.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And then the number of shells -- shell cases was

 3     15 times greater than the number of bullets that were found.  Is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   I didn't do the math.  There was 46 bullets and 20 live rounds,

 6     something along that line, yeah.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that the victims had a certain number

 8     of wrist-watches, pocket-watches, documents, and some personal

 9     belongings?

10        A.   Yes, I would.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did any of your hosts or those who were providing you

12     with information, did they inform you that it is customary in our culture

13     that a prisoner of war cannot have any valuables or personal documents

14     because that could be used in order to bribe guards, to escape, and so on

15     and so forth?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Thank you.  May I now draw your attention to Lazete 1, where in F

18     of the summary you concluded that that was the primary interment site of

19     human remains.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In paragraph E [as interpreted] you also mention in two places

22     unauthorised digging.  Do you have information as to who did that and for

23     what reason, what was the purpose?

24        A.   I'm sorry, could you tell me where again?

25             JUDGE KWON:  I take it it's I.

Page 22783

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 2             THE WITNESS:  According to the information I was given and the

 3     image I was shown, which is once again one of the aerial images, I was

 4     told that Serbian forces came and exhumed or robbed or moved, tried to

 5     remove the bodies from the original graves.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Who told you that?

 8        A.   Investigators, ICMP -- ICTY investigators.

 9        Q.   Did any Serbs at all take part in this providing of information?

10     Did you get anything from Serbs on that topic or were the only source of

11     information the Muslims?

12        A.   I did not get any primary information from any witnesses.  All

13     the information was given to the investigators and the information was

14     given to me by investigators.  So I never had contact with any of the

15     witnesses or informants.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You were not permanently employed at the OTP, while

17     the investigators were; is that correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And did any members of the Defence have access to you

20     to tell you whatever it is that they had to tell you or was it just the

21     OTP?

22        A.   Well, this was on the site in 2000, so at that time no one from

23     the Defence.  I was in the ground on this location so there was no one

24     from the Defence there.

25        Q.   Nor was anyone there on behalf of Republika Srpska or

Page 22784

 1     representing the Serbian side in the conflict; is that correct?

 2        A.   The only personnel there was US military personnel and ICTY

 3     exhumation team and a demining team, as well as the investigators I

 4     mentioned earlier.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  A water-pipe was severed also in this grave; is that

 6     correct?  This is item VII.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Three bodies with ligatures were found and a

 9     substantial number of strips of fabric which you called probable

10     blindfolds.  There were 37 such strips of fabric.  You, I think, also

11     found some strips which had fallen from the heads, whereas there were

12     only three ligatures; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.

14        Q.   This is (p).  And then in item (q) it said that you found

15     ten wrist-watches, three pocket-watches, and three identification

16     documents as well as in total of the 593 artefacts, 456 were shell cases,

17     nine live rounds, and 19 bullets.  Did you have any conclusion as to this

18     difference between 19 and 456?

19        A.   No, I did not.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             Probably you don't know -- well, I guess this could be maybe a

22     superfluous question.  You didn't know about the combat, but I guess you

23     don't know either which side, at what point in time, was in control of

24     that particular area.  Is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  As I mentioned before, I had no prior knowledge of combat

Page 22785

 1     in the area.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  As one of the conclusions that a certain location,

 3     specifically Lazete 1 and Lazete 2, you were able to connect with

 4     Srebrenica, you referred to the fact that a factor would be whether some

 5     people from Srebrenica were or were not in any particular grave.  As to

 6     the 28th Division, which had a number of independent battalions and five

 7     brigades, did you know exactly in which area this unit waged battle?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Not for this witness, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your Honour,

10     the witness himself mentioned that if somebody was from Srebrenica then

11     it must be that there was an execution there.  However, the combat zone

12     of the Srebrenica 28th Division included all of that area, practically

13     reaching to Bijeljina, up to Kalesija in any case, between Kalesija and

14     Tuzla bordering with Srebrenica --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- that brigade waged battle.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Witness said he didn't know the combat situation at

18     the time.  You will have another opportunity to tender that evidence to

19     the Chamber, and based upon that evidence you can make your submission.

20     But it's a waste of time asking that question to this witness, who said

21     he didn't know.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All I wanted was to indicate that

23     the conclusion would look different had the witness known that the

24     brigade fought all over that area.  But since you think that that is a

25     waste of time, I think that all that is left to me is that actually just

Page 22786

 1     thank Mr. Peccerelli for his testimony and to conclude.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             Mr. Mitchell, do you have re-examination?

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  I don't.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             Well, then, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Peccerelli.  Thank

 7     you again on behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal for your coming to

 8     The Hague again to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But since we will rise all together, we can rise all

11     together.

12             But, Mr. Tieger, before that briefly, with respect to the request

13     by Mr. Robinson asking for the lifting of ex parte nature of certain

14     motion, do you -- are you minded to respond to that request?

15             MR. TIEGER:  No -- I'm not hearing anything in the microphone,

16     but since the light is on, I assume I'm being heard.  The answer is no,

17     but I presume the Court would be hearing from the Registry.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             We'll take a break now for half an hour and resume at five to

20     3.00 -- 2.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           --- On resuming at 1.56 p.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Welcome back, Ms. West.  I was informed

25     that you have something to raise.

Page 22787

 1             MS. WEST:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

 2     Your Honours.  Mr. President, I would just like to answer a question that

 3     the Trial Chamber posed to me last time I was here.  On November 30th

 4     Witness Rave, who was a DutchBat liaison officer, testified and he

 5     testified about attending the first two Hotel Fontana meetings.  He

 6     testified that at the first meeting Mladic asked Karremans whether

 7     Karremans could arrange for the buses.  During his cross-examination

 8     Mr. Karadzic challenged the Prosecution, noting that it was, and I quote,

 9     "correct that only UNPROFOR and the Muslim sides were speaking about

10     evacuation and asking for the buses, whereas the Serb side was waiting to

11     hear about what the Muslim civilians wanted."  And that was at transcript

12     2226.

13             On re-direct on that day, I asked the witness -- the witness

14     reconfirmed that Mladic asked Karremans if he was able to provide buses

15     and that referred to the first meeting.  Then you asked whether the

16     Prosecution could locate any instance in the first meeting transcript

17     where the term "buses" was mentioned.  And you asked before Mladic had

18     made that request.  I did locate one instance, Your Honour, and I -- we

19     forward this to Sanction so we can see it on the screen.  It was 17 pages

20     earlier to Mladic's request and it was in response to Mladic asking

21     Karremans what he wanted.  Karremans then went on to describe the

22     humanitarian situation at the compound.  And you can see it -- it begins

23     at the bottom of 7828, where Karremans says:

24             "There are now approximately 10.000 women and children within the

25     compound of Potocari and the request of the BH command is to ... let's

Page 22788

 1     say, to negotiate or ask for the withdrawal of the battalion and

 2     withdrawal of those refugees, and if there are possibilities to assist

 3     that withdrawal.  There are some women who are able to speak English, and

 4     what I have heard from the soldiers who are now working to ... let's say

 5     ease the pain for the population ... a lot of people, a lot of persons

 6     women said 'we are waiting for the buses and can we leave the enclave'

 7     because they are sick, they are tired, and they are very scared."

 8             Mr. President, that was the only time that I located the word

 9     "buses" before Mladic's request.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much for your thorough research.

11             Yes, you have a new member to introduce, Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  We would like to

13     introduce Ms. Kate Emmerson, who is one of our interns working with our

14     case managers.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Before we bring in the next witness

16     shall we move into private session briefly.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22789

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let us bring in the next witness.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.  Would you kindly take the

 5     solemn declaration, please.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 7     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

11             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             Mr. Registrar, may we have 65 ter 90306, please.

13                           WITNESS:  JOSEPH KINGORI

14                           Examination by Ms. West:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   Can you please tell us your name.

18        A.   Your Honour, my name is Colonel Joseph Kingori.  I spell the last

19     name.  K-i-n-g-o-r-i.

20        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  Sir, you've testified in Krstic, the Krstic

21     case, in 2000; the Popovic case in 2007 to 2008; and the Tolimir case in

22     2010.  Is that correct?

23        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

24        Q.   And an amalgamated statement was prepared containing relevant

25     portions of your prior testimonies, and this is a statement which you

Page 22790

 1     signed on the 8th of January.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Colonel, do you see that statement on the screen before you now?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   And is this a statement that you reviewed and signed?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me, shall we switch into e-court.  Yes.

 7     Thank you.

 8             Please continue.

 9             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Colonel, is this the statement that you reviewed and signed?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it is the one I signed and I can see my

12     signature down there.

13        Q.   Colonel, can you confirm that the statement accurately reflects

14     an amalgamation of the testimonies that you've previously given?

15        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it does.

16        Q.   Sir, if you were asked today about the same matters contained in

17     the statement, would you provide the same information to the

18     Trial Chamber?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I would.

20             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I tender the statement and I also

21     tender the associated exhibits.  There are a total of 30 exhibits, four

22     of which we are requesting not tendered.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could you identify those four.

24             MS. WEST:  Yes.  Those are -- that's 65 ter number 1943 and it

25     has a Defence exhibit number D01966; second, 65 ter 02278, with a Defence

Page 22791

 1     exhibit number D01062; the third is 65 ter 40582, and this is the

 2     Srebrenica trial video and I think as the Chamber understands we will

 3     tender that later; and the last is 65 ter 03099, and this again is a

 4     compilation of photos that we'll tender at the end.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So the number of associated exhibits you are

 6     tendering in total is 26?

 7             MS. WEST:  Correct.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Are there any objections?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             Mr. Kingori's 92 ter statement will be admitted as ...?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4140, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  And the other 26 associated exhibits will be

15     admitted into evidence and be given number in due course.  But just one

16     matter, the last item, 65 ter number which is 16885, being the diary of

17     Mr. Kingori, but I'm not sure it's legible very much.  It's -- I'm not

18     sure whether you have some clearer version.

19             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I understand that the

20     Colonel actually has the original and perhaps we can take a better copy

21     of it and upload it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Yes, Ms. West.

Page 22792

 1             MS. WEST:  I'd like to now read a summary of the Colonel's

 2     testimony.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I get this by the end of

 4     today because if I don't have it this evening, then it's useless to me.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I think that can be sorted out, yes.  Thank you.

 6             Yes, Ms. West.

 7             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 8             In March 1995, Colonel Joseph Kingori, a United Nations Military

 9     Observer, was stationed in Srebrenica.  At the time he held the rank of

10     major.  The Colonel's main duty was to monitor and report any violations

11     to the cease-fire agreement.  He had contact with all parties, conveying

12     messages from one side to the other and attempting to bridge their

13     differences.  Major Nikolic and Colonel Vukovic were the -- were

14     Colonel Kingori's main contact within the VRS.

15             Colonel Kingori described the lack of food in Srebrenica.  Water

16     and electricity were also scarce.  Some of this was due to the VRS's

17     restrictions on aid convoys coming into the enclave.  Leading up to

18     July 1995, the VRS pushed further and further into the enclave itself.

19     The colonel occasionally attempted to penetrate behind VRS lines to

20     observe the military situation.  There were times he could not reach even

21     the enclave's internal borders because the VRS stood in the way.  During

22     this time he was only armed with a pencil and a notebook.

23             The colonel was one of two UN military observers present in

24     Srebrenica during the fall of the enclave.  On the morning of July 6 he

25     was awoken by heavy shelling that continued on the 7th, 8th, and 9th.  At

Page 22793

 1     first the shelling seemed directed outside the town, as though to push

 2     the population of the enclave into the town itself.  Then the shelling

 3     changed, targeting the town as though to drive the population out

 4     entirely and towards the DutchBat compound at Potocari.

 5             During the shelling, the two military observers were alternately

 6     inside the bunker of the PTT building filing reports and going out on

 7     patrol to examine the damage done by the shelling.  Even from inside the

 8     bunker, the military observers could hear and count the shells.  Outside

 9     the bunker they could see the shells falling.  The colonel observed that,

10     among other weaponry, the VRS was using tanks to fire missiles.  This was

11     in contrast to any weaponry the ABiH had inside the enclave.  The colonel

12     testified that even if there were a few guns held within the enclave,

13     they were old weapons unable to withstand or provoke the kind of

14     fire-power levelled by the VRS.

15             On July 9th, the military observers left Srebrenica for Potocari.

16     The enclave had already been encircled by the VRS.  The colonel testified

17     that it was as though the Muslims were being crushed in one place.  The

18     population was forced to look for an exit, and like the military

19     observers, they streamed to Potocari in the thousands to seek refuge with

20     the UN.  It was not an organised exodus.

21             On July 10th, the shelling continued.  The Colonel could hear it

22     very well himself from the DutchBat compound.  The military observers

23     also had a set of eyes still within the town of Srebrenica.  An UNMO

24     translator went back to Srebrenica from Potocari, so as to report on

25     shells landing within the town.  He had been with the UN for two years

Page 22794

 1     and could competently report on artillery.

 2             The Colonel attended a meeting with DutchBat and representatives

 3     of the ABiH.  The purpose was to discuss an ultimatum issued from the VRS

 4     that Muslims needed to leave the enclave.  By the end of the day on

 5     July 11th, the Potocari compound was filled with Muslim civilians, both

 6     inside the parameters of the compound and outside the fence.

 7             On July 12th, VRS soldiers arrived at the DutchBat compound.

 8     Those soldiers took up positions all around it, observing the whole area

 9     and the approximately 30.000 refugees gathered there.  The Colonel went

10     out of the compound to investigate.  He saw General Mladic in a field by

11     the compound and then the two at first discussed informalities and then

12     the events.  Mladic told Kingori that the VRS would provide buses for the

13     evacuation of the refugees.  Within 20 or 30 minutes of this

14     conversation, buses began arriving.  VRS soldiers herded women and

15     children onto the buses, but Kingori saw them pull aside men and boys who

16     were 14, 15, and 16.  The men and boys were sent to the white house.  The

17     separation of them from the women was traumatic.  There were senior VRS

18     officers present as crying families were pushed apart.  Kingori

19     approached Mladic again, complaining that the white house was

20     overcrowded.  Mladic replied that as far as he was concerned, the people

21     were comfortable.  He took Kingori to the white house, where Kingori saw

22     men seated on top of one another and with no space between them.  Mladic

23     refused to allow the Colonel to enter the house.

24             Men were taken from the white house and put on separate buses

25     from the women and children.  Young boys were shoved onto the buses as

Page 22795

 1     well and the Colonel tried to ask their ages.  If a boy answered "14,"

 2     the Colonel took him back to the VRS soldiers and away from the buses.

 3     The Colonel would then turn and see more buses -- excuse me, more boys

 4     pushed onto the buses by the VRS.

 5             The men were also forced on the buses without their belongings.

 6     They left behind everything they had, including their identification

 7     cards.  According to the Colonel, this was an indicator that something

 8     bad was going to happen.  He explained it meant that these people,

 9     whatever was going to be done to them, it would be very difficult to

10     identify them later.  The Colonel tried to make a record of the men's

11     identities.  He asked the men to shout their names to him so that he

12     could make some record of them.  He testified that this is one of the

13     saddest moments he witnessed in Srebrenica.

14             On July 13th, the Colonel tried to investigate rumours that

15     Muslim civilians were being taken behind a building by VRS soldiers.  He

16     was prevented by the VRS from going to the location but heard a gun-shot

17     from the building.  On the 13th as well, the Colonel went with

18     representatives of MSF to evacuate patients from Srebrenica hospital to

19     the compound.  Some didn't want to leave, but the Colonel was told by VRS

20     soldiers at the hospital that if he did not take the patients with him,

21     they would be killed.

22             The removal of refugees from the compound by the VRS continued,

23     and by the 14th, the refugees were gone and only the wounded remained.

24     Military observers helped MSF prepare a list of wounded and of local

25     staff to try to safely evacuate them.  This was negotiated with the VRS

Page 22796

 1     including Major Nikolic and the VRS civilian affairs officer

 2     Miroslav Deronjic.  During the negotiations, Professor Koljevic was also

 3     called.  On the 18th of July, the wounded were evacuated by the ICRC and

 4     a few days later the Colonel left Srebrenica along with MSF, DutchBat,

 5     and the local staff.

 6             Mr. President, that concludes my summary.

 7        Q.   Colonel Kingori, when did you retire from the Kenyan Air Force?

 8        A.   Your Honour, I retired in August 2007.

 9        Q.   And after that, for what organisation did you work?

10        A.   Your Honour, after retiring from the Kenya Air Force I joined the

11     National Disaster Operations Centre as the deputy director.

12        Q.   And can you explain to us what your role was there, what your job

13     was?

14        A.   Your Honour, the role -- our roles at the National Disaster

15     Operations Centre was to monitor and co-ordinate disaster management,

16     that includes training and response and also risk reduction in the whole

17     country.

18        Q.   Sir, when did you finish your contract there?

19        A.   Your Honour, my contract was for four years, which ended last

20     year in August.

21        Q.   And what do you do now?

22        A.   Right now, Your Honour, I'm working together with the

23     Moi University, that is the local university, in training of disaster --

24     district disaster management committees on disaster management in their

25     local areas.

Page 22797

 1        Q.   Colonel, we understand that from March 1995 until July 1995 you

 2     were a United Nations Military Observer in Srebrenica.  Can you tell us

 3     generally the duties of a military observer?

 4        A.   Your Honour, the duties of a military observer are diverse, but

 5     most of the apparent ones that we had was the monitoring of the violation

 6     to the cease-fire agreement that was already in place and also ensuring

 7     that those who were coming in to bring in aid, that is, in terms of food,

 8     water, through UN agencies like UNHCR, were getting a clearance to get

 9     into the enclave and also were assisted in getting out of the enclave

10     safely.  That is just a few among many others that we had.

11             Also I think it's important to bring one more, that is bringing

12     the warring factions together through holding of meetings together in

13     with different functions.  And then whatever we are told from this side

14     we inform the other side so that we can bridge the gap between the two

15     and so that we could be able to bring them together.

16        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 5 of your statement, it's noted that military

17     observers were never armed.  Can you tell us why this is so?

18        A.   Your Honour, in terms it is difficult to explain, but normally a

19     military observer in any UN mission is never armed.  The reason being if

20     you're not armed, you are able to go to any area without fear that

21     somebody might harm you because of the weapon you have or the other

22     person fearing that you might harm them in case you have a weapon.  So

23     you have a free way of going to either side of the warring factions

24     without fear at all.  That is the main reason.  But also it's good to

25     note that we used to have a book and a pen on which to write notes that

Page 22798

 1     we could see on the ground or hear or even investigate which through both

 2     their functions it was a very strong weapon in that whatever we wrote was

 3     taken very seriously by the UN system.

 4        Q.   Colonel, in order to become a military observer, what minimal

 5     level of experience must a candidate have?

 6        A.   Your Honour, first and foremost, to be a military observer you

 7     must be a senior military officer.  Here we are talking about from the

 8     rank of major and above, and you had to have -- for you to have reached

 9     that rank you definitely must have served for ten years in the military.

10     So for sure you had to be a senior and experienced officer because

11     whatever judgement that you were going to make in the field could have a

12     lot of repercussions and also you are expected to make judgements

13     according to your experience and knowledge that you already have.

14             MS. WEST:  May we have 65 ter 19423, please.

15        Q.   Colonel, after you left Srebrenica, were you and the other two

16     military observers debriefed?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honour, we were debriefed in UNMO headquarters in

18     Zagreb.

19        Q.   Can you tell us the name of the other two observers who were with

20     you?

21        A.   The other two observers, Your Honour, were Major David Tetteh

22     from Ghana and Major Andre de Haan from Holland.

23        Q.   Now, we see the document in front of us and if we look at

24     paragraph 2, it notes that there were three of you and it also says that

25     the Kenyan officer took the lead role in the debriefing.  Is that

Page 22799

 1     referring to you, sir?

 2        A.   Your Honour, it does.

 3        Q.   Now if we can go to the next page, please, and we're going to go

 4     to paragraph 4 and this is a paragraph that talks about the VRS take-over

 5     of OP Echo.  And just for the record, Colonel Kingori, in front of you is

 6     also a copy of this document if that makes it any easier for you.

 7     Actually physically, it's one of those pieces of paper.  Paragraph 4

 8     refers to OP Echo but it notes that OP Echo took place on the

 9     3rd of July.  Is that the correct date of the overthrow of OP Echo?

10        A.   Your Honour, it was on the 3rd but not of July.  I remember very

11     well and it is in my notes that it was in June, that is, the previous

12     month.

13        Q.   What was the significance of the road upon which OP Echo was

14     located?

15        A.   Your Honour, this was a very important road that led to the

16     southern side of the enclave through an area we used to call Zeleni Jadar

17     and which had some mineral deposits, that is, bauxite, and also there

18     were some factories in that area including a timber factory, and it was

19     one of the vantage points that any military would have wanted to occupy.

20        Q.   Colonel, as a result of the BSA successful attack on OP Echo,

21     what was the response by DutchBat?

22        A.   Your Honour, DutchBat tried to hold that place but they could not

23     be able to hold so they moved backwards a bit because the BSA could have

24     attacked them at any time, so they moved behind and left the OP.

25        Q.   I'm now going to move to paragraph 9, which is the following

Page 22800

 1     page, and this talks about OP Foxtrot and firing on the town of

 2     Srebrenica.  Were you in Srebrenica on July 9th?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I was in Srebrenica on July 9th.

 4        Q.   And, in fact, we're going to talk about the days before when you

 5     were there as well.  You describe extensively the shelling in your

 6     statement.  But in this debriefing you also described the inhabitants of

 7     Srebrenica being paralysed and confused.  Can you tell us what you meant

 8     by that?

 9        A.   This was due to the shelling that was going on, in that the BSA

10     were shelling both outside the town and later on inside the town, so it

11     caused a lot of confusion which actually could have been the main aim of

12     the shelling, to make sure that everybody is confused.  So they did not

13     know what to do or where to go and there was a lot of confusion.  We

14     could see it inside the village.

15        Q.   And as a result of that confusion, did you see people running all

16     over the place?

17        A.   Your Honour, that was the most evident thing, in that people were

18     running all over, they didn't know where to go, where to hide, what to

19     do.  And so we could see it and then there was a lot of fear in their

20     eyes and everything, but of course it was caused by the shelling that was

21     still ongoing.

22        Q.   And at paragraph 11, a little bit further down, you noted that:

23             "The BSA knew of this weakness in the chain of command and timed

24     their attack to exploit it."

25             Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this weakness in the chain of

Page 22801

 1     command was.

 2        A.   Your Honour, there were several significant things that had

 3     happened and one of them was the accident that the Chief of Staff Ramiz

 4     Becirovic had.  There was an air crash and we were told by the BSA in a

 5     meeting that they called us through Colonel Vukovic that there was a

 6     crash, and later on, when we investigated, we found that it's true, there

 7     was an incident and Ramiz Becirovic, who was the Chief of Staff, was

 8     injured.  And also we were being told about the rumour of Naser Oric

 9     being around and that he was confusing the leadership of the whole ABiH.

10     So I think they were weak at that particular moment, in that there was no

11     proper leadership.

12        Q.   I'd now like to move to paragraph 18, which is on the following

13     page, and this discusses shelling in Srebrenica from July 6 until the

14     town fell.  Was there any pattern to the shelling that you observed?

15        A.   Your Honour, we noted a pattern that was there --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Suggestive, leading.  This witness

17     is eloquent as it is, why lead him?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West just referred to the paragraph 18 which

19     refers to a pattern.  I don't think it's a leading question.

20             Please proceed.

21             Do you remember the question, Colonel Kingori?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I do.  Your Honour, we had noted

23     a pattern in that the BSA could shell over a certain period, then stop,

24     and later on after a few moments start shelling again.  And we found that

25     to be a bit interesting.  To us it was advantage, yes, in that there was

Page 22802

 1     a time that we could go into the town, do crater analysis, and come back

 2     safely, also collect those who were injured and those who had been killed

 3     and take them to hospital.  And also get time to inform the locals that

 4     they should stay indoors and not get out so that they can not be harmed.

 5     So the pattern was there and we utilised it positively.

 6             MS. WEST:

 7        Q.   Colonel, what date did you leave Srebrenica?

 8        A.   Your Honour, we left I think on the 9th.

 9        Q.   And after the 9th, did the shelling continue in Srebrenica?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  The shelling continued.

11        Q.   How did you know that?

12        A.   Your Honour, while in Potocari we could be able to hear the

13     shells landing and also overflying our place and especially the rockets,

14     at least we knew where the rocket-launcher was, it was just next to

15     Potocari.  And secondly, we had our own interpreter whom we had sent to

16     Srebrenica to go and monitor what is happening -- what was happening in

17     that area.  So he could also give us the reports of what was happening in

18     Srebrenica and the surrounding areas.

19        Q.   I'd like to move to paragraph 25, it's the following page.  And

20     this is talking about July 11th in the compound itself.  On the 11th

21     that's where you were located; right?

22        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

23        Q.   And by the end of the day on the 11th, can you give an estimate

24     about how many people converged in Potocari?

25        A.   Your Honour, around that time we had about from about 3.000 to

Page 22803

 1     3.500.  The figure obviously may not be very correct but around that

 2     figure had already streamed into Potocari.

 3        Q.   And does that include the number of the people on the outside of

 4     the compound as well?

 5        A.   No, Your Honour.  Those were the people who were walking in --

 6     into the factory.  There were others who had to be kept outside because

 7     the factory could not be able to hold everybody.

 8        Q.   And if you know, do you have an estimation of how many people

 9     were on the outside of the compound?

10        A.   Finally, Your Honour, we had a figure of between 5 and 7 outside,

11     but there were estimates which were going up to 10.000 depending on the

12     kind of people who were doing the estimates.  Because we had the UNHCR

13     doing it, we had the IOM, we had other agencies who were doing it, but we

14     knew the figure to have been about between 5.000 and 7.000.

15        Q.   Now, at the end of this paragraph you had indicated that there

16     was a massive refugee problem to deal with.  Can you please tell the

17     Trial Chamber what it was that made you come to that conclusion.

18        A.   Your Honour, DutchBat -- one thing I can say is that DutchBat was

19     the main supplier of our food and water and even diesel.  So there

20     already were strains because they were not being allowed to bring in

21     these items into the enclave by the BSA, they were not giving them a

22     clearance to bring it in.  And so when you bring in refugees, when you

23     add refugees now to this problem you find it was very difficult to

24     manage.  It was a humanitarian catastrophe in that we did not have enough

25     water, we did not have enough food and even shelter for these refugees in

Page 22804

 1     that place.

 2        Q.   Colonel, can you tell us who Petar was?

 3        A.   Your Honour, Petar was our interpreter from the BSA side.

 4        Q.   And how often did you work with him?

 5        A.   Your Honour, Petar -- we used to call him whenever we needed him

 6     or whenever he wanted to convey something to us like maybe a request for

 7     a meeting with the BSA.  And because he had a radio, a UN radio, we could

 8     easily communicate.  So it was whenever there was a need.

 9        Q.   Did you speak to Petar in the late morning of July 11th?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I did.

11        Q.   And who called whom?

12        A.   In the morning I -- Your Honour, he's the one who called us.

13        Q.   What did he say?

14        A.   He was requesting for a meeting with the CO of DutchBat that

15     morning.

16        Q.   What did you do?

17        A.   Your Honour, that is the time we were -- we -- a request for an

18     air-strike had already been given to the UN headquarters, and we were

19     expecting air-strikes any time.  So we got advice from UN headquarters in

20     Zagreb that we should not attend that meeting because the UN personnel

21     may be held hostage as a human shield to avert an air-strike.

22        Q.   Colonel, later in the day did you speak to Petar again?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  We talked to Petar.  That was -- actually, the

24     air-strike had already been done if you can call that an air-strike

25     because only one aircraft attacked and very few -- there were only two

Page 22805

 1     targets which were hit.  So everything was over and that time we

 2     requested for a meeting, and we were not that afraid because there were

 3     no more air-strikes and we had not heard of any threats from the BSA up

 4     to that time.

 5        Q.   And ultimately was a meeting held?

 6        A.   Yes, Your Honour, the meeting was held.

 7        Q.   Did you attend the meeting?

 8        A.   No, Your Honour, I did not.

 9        Q.   Now, I want to go to paragraph 27, which starts at the bottom of

10     this same page, and it notes that:

11             "All the trucks and buses were arranged by General Mladic and it

12     was clear that everything was planned including the evacuation.  Mladic

13     made a very good show for the BSA TV cameras ..."

14             Colonel, what facts did you consider when you concluded here that

15     everything was planned?

16        A.   Your Honour, we told General Mladic - and I remember personally

17     once talking to him about it - that the UN will provide transport to take

18     the refugees out of the enclave.  And then he declined and said that he

19     had his own buses to take the people outside the enclave.  And within a

20     very short time the buses were there.  So to me, I could see that because

21     the buses were not being sought from the Yellow Bridge or Bratunac which

22     were the next towns, obviously this is something which had been

23     prearranged.  And considering the number of buses and trucks, that could

24     have been a very big logistical issue so it must have been preplanned

25     according to my own assessment.

Page 22806

 1        Q.   Now, you just mentioned that you had this conversation with

 2     Mladic.  Was there also a second separate conversation with Mladic?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There was a second time that I talked to

 4     General Mladic, and that was concerning the people -- the men who had

 5     been taken to one white house, where they were put together.  And to me

 6     it looked very sad because they were all huddled in one particular place

 7     and there were too many of them for that particular area.  So I thought

 8     the conditions therein were not good for them and I wanted him to do

 9     something about it.  That's when I talked to him a second time.

10        Q.   When the two of you had the conversation, was it near the

11     white house itself?

12        A.   No, Your Honour.  It was not very near the white house but it was

13     not very far because that time it was slightly towards where the refugees

14     were outside -- in the outside compound.  But he offered to take me to

15     the -- to that white house so that we could see the conditions.  He was

16     still insisting that the conditions were good, that the people were happy

17     inside there, and so he offered to take me there and later on we went

18     there.

19        Q.   Can you tell us what happened when you went there?

20        A.   Your Honour, when we went to the white house we found the men

21     were still cramped together, there was no space for them to do anything,

22     but then General Mladic offered to, you know, to supply them with

23     candies, soft drinks, beers, and for sure it looked very real, it looked

24     like they were very happy because everybody was scrambling to get

25     something.  So they were shouting, "Give me this," "Give me that," and

Page 22807

 1     they all looked like they're okay.  But to me it was just for the

 2     cameras.  It was just acting for the cameras to depict that.

 3        Q.   Colonel, ultimately did you ever get inside the white house?

 4        A.   Your Honour, General Mladic denied me access to the white house.

 5     I asked him for it.  I asked him whether he can let me go in there and he

 6     said no, I'm not allowed to go inside there, so I did not.

 7             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would tender 65 ter 19423.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4165, Your Honours.

10             MS. WEST:

11        Q.   Colonel, you -- early on today you described your role as a

12     military observer and, if I may, as some sort of liaison between the

13     parties.  With whom on the VRS side did you primarily meet?

14        A.   Your Honour, we were primarily meeting Major Nikolic who was the

15     main contact guy and also Colonel Vukovic.

16        Q.   And how many times did you meet with Colonel Vukovic?

17        A.   Your Honour, I met Colonel Vukovic at least four times, at least

18     four times.

19        Q.   And on one of those occasions did take place at the

20     Hotel Fontana?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour, one of those occasions we met at Hotel Fontana.

22        Q.   Can you tell us about that, please.

23        A.   Your Honour, it was just one of, you know, like any other

24     meeting, but this one was a bit different, later on we learnt, in that

25     there was something he wanted to convey to us and also there were very

Page 22808

 1     many senior officers from his side, from the BSA side, that is, there

 2     were about six of them.  And one of the questions that he posed to us is

 3     what the UN might do in case the BSA attacked the enclave, attacked and

 4     took the enclave.  He wanted to hear from us what the UN would do.

 5        Q.   Colonel, can you remember when this meeting took place?

 6        A.   Your Honour, it took place quite early, quite early, just before

 7     the attack.  I think it was around June, around June.

 8        Q.   Colonel, I'm going to show you now some video footage, and this

 9     is 65 ter 4582, the first part is part 2 of that video, and for the

10     record that's V0009035.  In total we'll only play about five minutes.

11             Colonel, this is a July 12th.  It's about 1.00 in the afternoon.

12             MS. WEST:  And for the Trial Chamber, during the testimony of

13     Colonel Rutten you saw up to this point of where this video starts.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. WEST:  And for the record, we've stopped at time 25 and

16     31 seconds.

17        Q.   Sir, is that you in the middle of the screen?

18        A.   Your Honour, right now I can't see it.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please wait till our usher assists you, Mr. Kingori.

20     My apologies.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, that's me.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, would you like the witness to view the

23     video again?

24             MS. WEST:  Yes, if we could start again.  Thank you very much.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 22809

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, I was told that the Colonel watched the

 3     video but -- is it true?  Can you confirm that you watched the video?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I've watched it.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             We can carry on then.  Yes.

 7             MS. WEST:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  If we

 8     can -- we are now at 23.59.  We are beginning the video.  On the screen

 9     we see July 12th at 13.13 in the afternoon.  Now we can start.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MS. WEST:

12        Q.   Colonel, we just stopped at 24.39.  Do you recognise this area?

13        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

14        Q.   And is this an area in which you spent some time that particular

15     day?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I was there, moving around and checking the

17     situation the whole day, actually.

18        Q.   And the people we've seen on the screen, so presently in the

19     minutes earlier, do you recognise some of these people who were there

20     that day?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  These are people we were with.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We'll continue.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MS. WEST:  Now we've stopped at 25.20 and this is a frame of

25     General Mladic speaking to the crowds.

Page 22810

 1        Q.   While he was speaking to the crowds, did you remain in the

 2     general area?

 3        A.   Your Honour, I was there throughout and I could see him.  We were

 4     with him around that area.  And he was visibly -- you know, he was

 5     present throughout.

 6        Q.   And were you able to see the reaction of the crowds to his words?

 7        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  They were very happy.  They were assured that

 8     everything would be okay.  So there was no cause for panic, which is

 9     normal in any military operation.  You've got to assure the people --

10     that everything is okay to win their hearts and minds so that they can be

11     on your side.  This is normal.  Whatever he was doing was what an

12     ordinary leader would do.

13             MS. WEST:  Can we continue, please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. WEST:  Now we've stopped at 28.59 and where we've stopped,

16     for the record, it was showing a crowd of people.

17        Q.   Colonel, you mentioned earlier that this was part of winning

18     their hearts and minds.  Considering your experience, why do you think

19     that this was normal?

20        A.   Your Honour, this is what we call psychological warfare in that

21     you don't want the multitude to rise against you because of what has

22     happened to them.  So you want to reassure them, you want to show them

23     that everything is okay, you are taking care of them, and that you ensure

24     nobody is hurt, nobody is harmed.  Everybody will go to where they should

25     go to.  So it's just to reassure them, though mainly you don't

Page 22811

 1     necessarily have to mean what you have said.

 2        Q.   Colonel, I'm going to show you one more video.

 3             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, this video is just a total of 8 minutes

 4     long.  It's part of 65 ter 40582.  This is part 3.  For the record, it's

 5     9016 of that 65 ter number, and we're going to begin at 2 minutes and

 6     44 seconds.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 3 minutes and 55 seconds.

 9        Q.   Colonel, do these events on the video look familiar to you?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour, they do, in that I was there during this period

11     and that these people were being led into boarding the buses.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We're going to continue.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 6 minutes and 15 seconds.

15        Q.   Do you recognise the person in the middle of the screen?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

17        Q.   Who was that?

18        A.   This was one of the few men from the BSA side who could speak

19     English.

20        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to talk with him during that day?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I was conveying some messages through him to

22     the higher echelon, the leadership of the BSA that time.

23        Q.   Let's continue.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. WEST:  That's 7 minutes and 2 seconds.

Page 22812

 1        Q.   We have seen that this road continues on.  To where does it go?

 2        A.   This is a road that leads to Bratunac from Potocari and all the

 3     way up from Srebrenica.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We'll continue.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MS. WEST:  We're at 7 minutes and 29 seconds.

 7        Q.   Do you see yourself in this frame?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

 9        Q.   And do you remember being in this area?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I was there.

11        Q.   We'll continue.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. WEST:  We're at 8 minutes.

14        Q.   And if you can tell, you're in this screen and you seem to be

15     coming up behind someone.  Do you recognise that person in front of you?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Who is that?

18        A.   It doesn't look very clear, but I think it was Krstic.

19     [Overlapping speakers] -- remember very well.

20        Q.   Okay.  What were you trying to do while you were in that area?

21        A.   Your Honour, I was looking for any possible means of telling the

22     leadership, that is, the military leadership of the BSA, that what was

23     happening was not right and especially where the men who were being put

24     in one big house -- in one small house, many of them there, and without

25     any air, without food, without water, without anything.  I just wanted to

Page 22813

 1     convey that message through somebody.

 2        Q.   Okay.  We're going to continue on.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MS. WEST:  We're at 8 minutes and 50 seconds.

 5        Q.   Colonel, you were just mentioning a place that was too crowded.

 6     What was that place?

 7        A.   Your Honour, here I'm referring to the white house where all the

 8     men had been taken.

 9        Q.   We continue.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MS. WEST:

12        Q.   Sir, we're at 9 minutes and 54 seconds.  What is this you see on

13     the screen?

14        A.   Your Honour, what you can see here is the belongings of the men,

15     that is, the Muslim men who had been taken to the white house, because

16     they were being forced to leave all these belongings outside the house.

17     These belongings included the clothes that they had, that they were

18     carrying, the identity cards, that is, the pass, they could leave the

19     pass there, the identity cards, everything that they had they had to

20     leave it there.

21             MS. WEST:  We'll continue, Mr. President.  We only have one more

22     minute of this video.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MS. WEST:  I'm going to stop at 10 minutes now.

25        Q.   Earlier I asked you to identify a person and you mentioned that

Page 22814

 1     it was sort of fuzzy.  Unfortunately this is kind of fuzzy as well.  I

 2     know this was a long time ago, but can you identify the person who is

 3     standing sort of directly in front of you, if you can remember?

 4        A.   Your Honour, it is not very clear.  I can't remember him very

 5     well.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember what you were talking about here?

 7        A.   Yes, Your Honour, even here we were just discussing about the

 8     general humanitarian situation in that place but through this guy with a

 9     blue flak jacket who actually could be able to interpret from English to

10     Serbian language and vice versa.

11        Q.   We'll continue now to the end.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. WEST:  Just for the record, this is that same footage but

14     it's the Serbian -- version they played on Serbian television.  It will

15     continue for a few more seconds.

16        Q.   Colonel, what we see at the screen at 10 minutes and 53 seconds,

17     do you recognise that?

18        A.   Your Honour, I do recognise this.  And as you can see very

19     clearly, this is the upper floor of the house where the men had been

20     taken after being separated from the women and children.  And you can see

21     there's no space.  They don't have any space at all.  And this was the

22     same even in the ground floor, the floor below this, it was the same very

23     bad condition.

24        Q.   And when you had that discussion with General Mladic, was this

25     the vicinity in which you were standing?

Page 22815

 1        A.   Your Honours, this is was what I was referring to.

 2        Q.   Colonel, I have no more questions.

 3             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. West.

 5             We'll adjourn for today, and Mr. Karadzic will start his

 6     cross-examination tomorrow at 9.00.  The hearing is now adjourned.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.07 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

 9                           January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.