Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22919

 1                           Friday, 13 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Kingori.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your staying for one more day.

10             Mr. Karadzic, you have an hour today.  Please continue.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Good morning, Excellencies.  Good morning to everyone.

13                           WITNESS:  JOSEPH KINGORI [Resumed]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kingori, good morning.

16        A.   Good morning, sir.

17        Q.   I'm going to try to go through everything briefly and quickly,

18     the things that we agreed on during our interview.  Can I just remind you

19     that you said that you assumed the duties of the head of the team when in

20     early July 1995, the 10th, the 9th, or the 8th of July, when your

21     colleague went to the hospital.  Is that correct?

22        A.   No, Your Honour.  The -- my colleague went to the hospital much

23     earlier, not on the 10th or 9th.

24        Q.   But you became the head of the team in early July; is that

25     correct?

Page 22920

 1        A.   Yeah, we can assume I took over the duties of the head of the

 2     team around that time.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know and were you informed that the Muslims

 4     or Muslim soldiers very often placed their weapons close to our

 5     observation posts and opened fire from there, and that this was something

 6     that was the -- a matter of misunderstanding between them and the

 7     soldiers of the Dutch Battalion?

 8        A.   Your Honour, as military observers we did not have any

 9     observation posts.  They were manned by DutchBat.

10        Q.   I'm sorry, I'm thinking about the United Nations.  The DutchBat

11     as well as yourselves were members of the United Nations.  Did the Dutch

12     soldiers inform you that they had problems with the Muslim side because

13     it was using the presence of the observation posts by using those places

14     as firing locations in order to draw Serb fire?

15        A.   Yes, Your Honour, they complained about the BiH presence at the

16     OPs.

17        Q.   Sir, I'm talking about the B&H army.  Were you informed that the

18     B&H army misused the presence of DutchBat by situating themselves close

19     by and firing from such locations in order to draw out Serbian fire --

20     I'm sorry, you did say that it was the BH.  In the interpretation I got

21     that you said it was the VRS.  I apologise.  I am satisfied with your

22     answer.  There's no need to go over it again.

23             Were you informed that DutchBat was very afraid of the Muslim

24     army close by, that they were prevented from withdrawing, and that they

25     also had fire, to say the least, from the Muslim side and even exchanges

Page 22921

 1     of fire?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honour, there was such an incident.

 3        Q.   Do you recall that a Dutch soldier was killed, that he was killed

 4     by a Muslim fighter?

 5        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I recall that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You informed us that Colonel Vukovic complained to

 7     you about helicopter flights and that these helicopters were shipping in

 8     weapons and that Becirovic denied that.  However, you found out that even

 9     Ramiz Becirovic had a helicopter accident and he was hurt, or rather,

10     that this helicopter that he was in was downed, that he was injured in

11     this accident, but that he survived?

12        A.   Your Honour, that issue occurred and we were informed by

13     Colonel Vukovic.  And later on it's not Becirovic who denied.  It was the

14     mayor of the opstina who denied, according to my records, but later on we

15     found that Ramiz was injured.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive information about weapons and

17     ammunition being transported in these helicopters?

18        A.   Your Honour, this was said to us by Colonel Vukovic, that there

19     were weapons on board, but we could not verify that.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D04770, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can I ask you to look at this document from May 1995.  It's an

24     official report by the command of the 28th Division of the security organ

25     about the event that we're talking about.  So this was before the

Page 22922

 1     critical events.  May I ask you just to look where it says that they had

 2     a heliport and that it crashed close to the heliport.  Can you look at

 3     that, please.

 4             Somewhere around line 10, let me just take a look, I think in the

 5     English version it's probably on the next page -- actually, it's towards

 6     the bottom of the page where it says that they were stored in a facility

 7     used for MTS, materiel and technical equipment.  You would agree that

 8     this is military equipment, this is weapons and ammunition.  Did you know

 9     that they had a heliport and then next to the heliport they had a

10     warehouse for materiel and technical equipment?

11        A.   No, Your Honour, I was not aware.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at page 4 of this

13     document, please.  Yes, it's the same page in the English as well.

14             If you can look at the last section after the investigating judge

15     ordered the present members of military security to sort out the bags,

16     packages, personal belongings, and so on and so forth.  It's noted then

17     what was found next to the helicopter:  Pistols; rubber truncheons,

18     18 pieces; 11 Kalashnikovs; and so on and so forth.

19             Can we look at the next page, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You can see that there are wrist-watches, Motorolas, uniform

22     trousers, all of this is for the 285th Brigade, for the 282nd,

23     281st Brigade, all of the things that were being transported by the

24     helicopter that crashed.  Can we conclude with good reason that not every

25     helicopter was downed and that many of these helicopters could fly

Page 22923

 1     without being observed?

 2        A.   Your Honour, crashing of one helicopter that we had not sighted

 3     does not necessarily mean that there were others that passed without

 4     being noticed.  Because at least the DutchBat could also have seen it.

 5     So that is not a direct conclusion.  We cannot be able to conclude that.

 6        Q.   Do we agree that this activity was strictly banned in a

 7     demilitarised Srebrenica and that it constituted a violation of the

 8     agreement and that this was a combat activity, replenishment and shipping

 9     in additional weapons.  Do we agree that this was not permitted?

10        A.   Your Honour, I totally agree with you, this was not permitted; so

11     was the activities by the BSA against the Muslims in the enclave.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  And probably you will be asked this in

13     re-direct by the Prosecution.  Did you establish who was the first to

14     violate the agreement, what was the action, and what was the reaction?

15        A.   No, Your Honour, I did not establish who violated the VCFA first.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Colonel, by the activities by the BSA against the

17     Muslims in the enclave, do you refer to the attack against the enclave or

18     the downing the helicopter?

19             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, what I mean is the continuous

20     activities that were being done against the Muslims in the enclave.  That

21     included the firing against them, the shelling of the enclave much

22     earlier before the main onslaught, and also the activities that were

23     carried out during July -- June and July of 1995.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

Page 22924

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And were these activities against the protected area, the

 3     demilitarised area, the civilian area at unprotected targets as -- or as

 4     against what the Secretary-General described as an un -- or as a

 5     stronghold?

 6        A.   Your Honour, it was against the demilitarised area, the civilian

 7     area, and anything else that was inside the enclave.

 8        Q.   Assuming that there were no fighters there, 15.000 of them,

 9     10.000 of whom had reached Tuzla.  Is this something that you call a

10     demilitarised zone?

11        A.   Your Honour, I still refer to it as a demilitarised zone because

12     it was demilitarised and availability of two, three, or whatever number

13     of guns does not mean an area was not demilitarised.  It was only that

14     there were few guns and that is not in question.  What I know is that --

15     and we have reported before that there were a few guns available in the

16     enclave, but that does not mean that the area was not demilitarised.

17        Q.   Sir, could you please tell us the period during which it was

18     demilitarised, or rather, remilitarised?

19        A.   Your Honour, I don't know what you mean by that.  Because you

20     know when it was demilitarised.  You were there when the accord was

21     signed.  And it remained like that.  Only that we know and it is

22     documented that a few guns here and there could be seen.

23        Q.   For the sake of interpretation, could you please specify when you

24     say "a few guns," are you referring to rifles or cannon?

25        A.   Your Honour, I mean small arms because we have recorded on that,

Page 22925

 1     and I think at one instance, I think where we saw or it was reported,

 2     that there was a machine-gun that had been sighted.  But there were no

 3     heavy weapons that were reported about by us.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And your assertion that the zone was demilitarised,

 5     how does that comport with the position of the United Nations, whose

 6     representative you were over there?

 7        A.   Your Honour, obviously the UN system -- the United Nations knew

 8     about what was happening because we were reporting throughout.  When we

 9     sight a few guns, we could send a report on the same.  Whatever we found

10     in the enclave we could report and it was known all over.  And you cannot

11     assume that when you demilitarise a place it becomes hundred per cent

12     without a weapon.  It's not possible.  So that to us was not possible to

13     achieve a hundred per cent proper that you cannot find a gun here or

14     there.  And we were complaining -- and especially DutchBat were

15     complaining whenever they were on patrol, when they could see some BiH

16     men with guns, they would complain to the Chief of Staff and they would

17     be told:  This is wrong.  And that the next time they would be -- the

18     guns would be removed from them.

19             And you remember an incident and I do not want to go down into it

20     because you have not asked about it, but there is an incident whereby the

21     Muslims did not grant the DutchBat permission to go through because they

22     thought they would get demilitarised, the guns they had would be removed

23     from them.  So in fact what I'm trying to say is we were passing the

24     information to the UN system every time we could find anything to report

25     on, even on some people with guns in the enclave.

Page 22926

 1        Q.   Sir, I'm concerned by your persistent assertions which are

 2     absolutely contrary to what is stated in documents of the United Nations.

 3     Have you ever seen a report by the UN Secretary-General --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you are not to argue with the witness.

 5     When the witness has given his answer, whether you agree with him or not,

 6     just get on with it.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Did you ever see the UN Secretary-General's report about the fall

 9     of Srebrenica?

10        A.   No, Your Honour, I don't remember seeing it.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the report

13     about the helicopter crash.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

15             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  I have no

16     objection.

17             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2001, Your Honours.  D2001.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D10965 briefly,

20     please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   A little bit earlier you referred to -- you said that you could

23     not draw a conclusion on the basis of one helicopter.  Now I would like

24     to show you the final analysis of the operation of the --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number again.

Page 22927

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- of the air-lift regarding -- and

 2     the fights -- in and out of Srebrenica.

 3             1D1965.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Is it D1965?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Or 1D040723.  Can we look at

 7     the next page, please.  Can we look at the first sentence, please.

 8             "Between the 27th of February, 1993, until 7th May 1995 there was

 9     an air-lift from the territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

10     to meet the needs of the enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde.  The

11     main aim of introducing and maintaining the air-lift was to transport and

12     ensure combat equipment, evacuation of wounded, the functioning of the

13     organs of authority ..."

14             And then a little bit lower it says:

15             "Even in spite of the presence of the UNPROFOR, which did not

16     fulfil its mandate to protect the civilian population in territories of

17     the enclaves," and so on and so forth, "morale of the fighters and

18     civilians has improved not only because of the supply of war materiel

19     and -- and war materiel but also because of the reassurance that they

20     have not been abandoned ..." and so on and so forth.

21             Did you know this air-lift was established and that helicopter

22     flights were not accidental but they were a rule?

23        A.   Your Honour, I was not aware of these flights.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I am not going to dwell on this document anymore.

25     It's already been admitted.

Page 22928

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D1039, please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   This is a UN document, isn't it.  Akashi is writing to Annan --

 4     actually, he's writing to the Secretary-General and is informing Annan

 5     and Goulding, and you know who these people are.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,

 7     please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is the 26th of January, 1994.  Could you please look at

10     item 5.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we have the first

12     page to see whether it's the same document.  No, this is the

13     11th of July, 1995.  1D4882.  Could we have that, please.  I am sorry.  I

14     thought it had been admitted.  Can we have the second page now, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please look at:

17             [In English] "The Bosnian government has taken tactical advantage

18     of the presence of UNPROFOR beyond the stated objectives of the relevant

19     Security Council Resolutions.  The establishment of safe areas in spring

20     last year was designed to stop any further Bosnian Serb advances.  While

21     this objective has been achieved by UNPROFOR's presence, the Bosnian

22     Muslim forces have recently embarked on an increasingly offensive

23     approach, partly using the safe areas" -- next page - "as a staging

24     ground.  For the Bosnian Serbs this is a cause of great concern which has

25     led them to question UNPROFOR's impartiality increasingly.  In the

Page 22929

 1     political preparations for the two operations, therefore, it has to be

 2     kept in mind that the situation has changed as regards Security Council

 3     Resolutions 836 and 844."

 4             [Interpretation] So already in January 1994 it was clear that the

 5     presence of the United Nations had been abused and you knew nothing of

 6     that; right?

 7        A.   Really, when you say the position of the United Nations has been

 8     abused, Your Honour, I don't understand by who.  Because for sure both

 9     sides had their own reasons to assume that the United Nations was not

10     working for their cause.  The Muslims were feeling the same because they

11     thought UNPROFOR was there to protect them, but they were still being

12     attacked throughout.  And obviously to them they felt the UN is a -- has

13     abandoned them.  So even if the BSA could have felt or the Bosnian Serbs

14     could have felt the same, really it's an issue of who says what first.

15     Because I'm sure there are other areas where they -- the Muslims have

16     complained about the same.

17        Q.   Sir, let us see what it is that the UN thinks, not the Serbs or

18     the Muslims.  The first objective is to stop the Serbs from advancing;

19     that has been achieved.  The second objective was not achieved.  Rather,

20     the presence of the UN has been abused --

21             MS. WEST:  Mr. President --

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   -- in order to have the Serbs attacked from there.  Did you know

24     of this official position of the UN?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

Page 22930

 1             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think Mr. Karadzic

 2     understood what I was about to say and reverted to a question.  But I

 3     think we're going down that same lane again of statement after statement

 4     after statement only to conclude with a small question and I ask that it

 5     stop.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind how and what to put to the

 7     witness.  Do not make a statement, as indicated by Ms. West.

 8             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The interest of the

10     Defence is to show that this witness speaks of things --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- that he does not know anything

13     about, that he a partial --

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- no, then -- put your question then.  Otherwise

15     you lead us to question your ability to represent yourself.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Kingori, my question was not what the Serbs and Muslims

18     think, but rather what the UN thinks, what your bosses think.  Did you

19     know that this truth had already been established in January 1994?

20        A.   Your Honour, I was not aware of this letter.  I've never seen it.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We object.  This cannot go

25     to the witness's credibility.  It's from January of 1994.

Page 22931

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness continuously served

 5     the UN.  It was his duty to know what he was coming to do and where he

 6     was coming to serve.  He absolutely had to be aware of this, and he

 7     should be confronted with this knowledge that his institution had.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Ms. West's observation.  We

10     will not admit this.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I asked you whether you knew that I had stopped the

14     Serb activity around Srebrenica in 1993.  Now I would like you to have a

15     look at a document from that period, 1D4774 [as interpreted].

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Karadzic, could you kindly repeat the number,

17     please.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04974.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm being told that it hasn't been released.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe later, then.  Before the end.

21     Let us go back to our interview.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You confirmed to us and I see that this is contained in your

24     statement in paragraph 3 that you knew that there were forward air

25     controllers, courageous young men, well equipped, who forwarded NATO

Page 22932

 1     aircraft.  They worked for NATO; right?

 2        A.   Your Honour, I didn't say -- I'm not very sure who they worked

 3     for, but I know they were British and they were inside the enclave and

 4     maybe they could assist as air -- forward air controllers on aircrafts

 5     that were being used by NATO.  I didn't say they were working for NATO.

 6        Q.   131.  Could you please have a look at that paragraph of your

 7     statement, 131.  Whose aircraft were being guided, Mr. Kingori?

 8        A.   They were NATO aircrafts.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  That is what you speak of in paragraph 131; right?

10        A.   Yes, that's what I speak about.  But that does not mean that they

11     were employed by NATO.  They could have been employed by maybe the

12     British government or whatever, just only that they assisted the NATO.

13     So I'm not sure about all that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the overall presence of

15     international organisations required our consent.  Did we ever give our

16     consent for the presence of forward air controllers?

17        A.   Your Honour, I do not know.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             Did you see any killing in Srebrenica during those critical days?

20        A.   Your Honour, I don't know what you mean, but if you were talking

21     about directly someone shooting at somebody, I did not witness that.  But

22     at least I saw people who had been killed by the bombardment that was

23     staged by the BSA on Srebrenica.  I witnessed that.

24        Q.   Did you investigate any incidents that resulted in death?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour, and it is on record and we relayed the same to

Page 22933

 1     the UN headquarters.  And I remember even one had been killed by

 2     shrapnels and we reported exactly like that because we had to check all

 3     the bodies so that we could determine what had killed an individual.  If

 4     it was just injuries, we could check what could have injured that person

 5     before taking them to the hospital.  So we were investigating all that.

 6        Q.   Did you investigate any other incidents that resulted in death?

 7        A.   Your Honour, I don't know like which ones you may mean maybe --

 8     you are meaning.  I am not very sure what you mean by that.

 9        Q.   In your vicinity in Potocari, were there any incidents that

10     resulted in death that you had investigated or reported on?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There are some people who died.  I think there

12     is one woman who died inside the hospital I think trying to deliver or

13     something like that and we reported on that.  There is somebody who tried

14     to kill himself; we reported on that.  There were several other incidents

15     that we were reporting on.  Whatever we could see or hear we were

16     reporting on.

17        Q.   Thank you.  When was the first time that you learned that there

18     had been killings in Srebrenica?  During the interview you told us that

19     you found out about that much, much later and that you were very

20     surprised because you had expected people to be taken to Tuzla.  Is that

21     right?

22        A.   Your Honour, I don't understand the whole question.

23        Q.   We asked you when it was that you first learned that there had

24     been such killings that this trial is dealing with, or rather, these

25     executions.  When did you first learn of that?  Did you know of that when

Page 22934

 1     you were there or is what you told us during the interview correct, that

 2     you found out about that much, much later when you returned to Kenya and

 3     you were very, very surprised?

 4        A.   Your Honour, what I know is that -- and exactly what I told you

 5     was that the mass killings that occurred to the men of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina, the Muslims who were killed, I learnt about it much later.

 7     But for sure there were doubts on as to the whereabouts, the location, of

 8     these men after they left the enclave.  All those doubts were there and

 9     is reported that their destiny could not be established.  We did not know

10     whether they would be killed or not and we were praying and hoping for

11     the best.  That is now on those mass killings.

12             But on the bombardment and killing of the Muslims inside the

13     enclave, obviously I was there and I witnessed most of the occurrences.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us specifically who you meant?  In your

15     view, who was it that was killed?  The people who were seen off on those

16     buses going to Kladanj?  Who are the persons who fell victim?

17        A.   Your Honour, what I know and what I believe is that from the

18     initial phase of separating the men from the women and children, there

19     could have been a deliberate plan to eliminate those men.  And I still

20     believe those are the men -- the ones who were put in a separate house,

21     the ones who were put in different buses from their families are the ones

22     who could have been killed or exterminated elsewhere.

23        Q.   So those you considered to be civilians, those who went to

24     Kladanj, you do not think that they were the ones who were the victims.

25     Rather, you think that it was those who you say were treated as POWs.

Page 22935

 1     They were lined up and so on.  Those who were at the white house; right?

 2             MS. WEST:  If I could just make a clarification.  I don't believe

 3     that the witness indicated that they were treated as POWs.  He just

 4     described them as the men.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I expected the same from the witness.

 6             Could you put your question again.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in his statement the witness

 8     said that they treated them in the following way.  They lined them up and

 9     so on and so forth.  They took away their personal property and they

10     treated them like prisoners of war.  That is in his statement and I'm

11     going to find the exact place.

12             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  I was just going to ask that.  Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 173, paragraph 173.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Where did Mr. Kingori say that they were prisoners

15     of war or treated as such?  Yes, I see it, "like they were prisoners of

16     war."

17             Yes, what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   My question, Mr. Kingori:  You think that the persons that the

20     Serb soldiers were treating as POWs were the one who fell victim, the

21     ones who boarded buses, et cetera, those are the ones you mean; right?

22     Or are you referring to the civilians who boarded buses that were going

23     to Kladanj and were evacuated in that way?

24        A.   Your Honour, the people, according to me, that I think were

25     exterminated that way are the ones who were taken by buses from

Page 22936

 1     Srebrenica -- from Potocari.  Those who had been separated from their

 2     families and kept in a white house, taken in different buses from their

 3     families, are the ones who were exterminated.  These are not prisoners of

 4     war.  These were men who were picked from their families.  These are men

 5     who were picked from their families.

 6        Q.   How do you know that they were not part of the 28th Division,

 7     that they were not combatants, and that many of the Serb soldiers from

 8     the surrounding area did not know about their activities?  Did you

 9     establish that they were not combatants?

10        A.   Your Honour, I did not establish that.  But it's good to know

11     that at that time most of the soldiers were in the field.  Most of those

12     people who had arms were in the field.  Of course, you cannot miss one or

13     two being inside there, and that is why General Mladic, when he was going

14     through a list and checking all the men inside DutchBat compound who had

15     been injured, was checking through that list to confirm whether any of

16     them could have been in their list of soldiers.  But the ones outside

17     there are the ones -- are the men who were outside in the white house

18     were separated from their families.  So I don't see the connection there,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  What list did you refer to, Mladic went through a

21     list?

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I don't mean General Mladic and I'm

23     sorry for that.  I meant Major Nikolic.  Major Nikolic is the one who had

24     a list and who was checking those who had been taken to DutchBat hospital

25     with -- you know, checking all those who were injured against the list

Page 22937

 1     that he had, to confirm whether they were soldiers or not.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Or alleged criminals?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, or alleged criminals.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   How many people were in the white house then?

 8        A.   Your Honour, I cannot remember -- I do not know the actually

 9     number, but there were many, there were many I believe, there were very

10     many.

11        Q.   200?  300?  100?

12        A.   Your Honour, it's difficult for me to give an actual number, but

13     I know there are many -- there were many.  And we could see that because

14     some were below, you know, the base -- the basement.  Others were on top.

15     Some were, you know -- they were huddled properly inside -- sandwiched,

16     they were sandwiched, they were sort of pressed against each other.

17     There were very many of them inside that building.

18        Q.   Mr. Kingori, we saw that they stood on a terrace following what

19     was happening.  We saw that on a film that was shown here.  Are those the

20     people who were packed as sardines?  We saw a picture of the white house,

21     people were standing on the terrace, behind the regular railing or fence

22     on the terrace.  They did not allow you to enter the white house; right?

23        A.   Sir, Your Honour, those are two questions and I'll answer both.

24     One of them is on those who could be seen at the house at the terrace,

25     obviously those were not enjoying a picnic.  You could see they were

Page 22938

 1     huddled together and those are the ones who were slightly better because

 2     they were on top.  The others who were below them on the lower floor,

 3     there were many who were there.  And I could see them -- from outside I

 4     could see them and even the film can show just a little bit of it.  But

 5     those who were below were not captured by the video.  And I saw all of

 6     them and I could actually establish that they were not having fun inside

 7     there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  All right, Mr. Kingori, you say that you singled out

 9     some young boys, saved them, et cetera.  So you did have this authority

10     vis-a-vis the Army of Republika Srpska.  You could single out these

11     people, like this man is not going, or rather, this boy is only 14 and so

12     on and so forth.  And you said that the people who were there were

13     between the ages of 16 and 60; right?

14        A.   Your Honour, besides being a military observer, I'm a human

15     being.  I could be able to see that some of these boys who were being

16     taken like they were of fighting age just because their sizes could show

17     that they're slightly big actually did not qualify them to be actually of

18     fighting age or to be soldiers or to be perceived like they were

19     soldiers.  They were very young, naive.  You know, they were people you

20     could see who do not know anything about the war you are talking about.

21     So when you see them being removed and you, you know -- obviously we knew

22     the consequences of those boys, those men, being taken to a different

23     place.  Really, we -- I could not just stand by and watch that happening,

24     and that is why I ensured that the ones who were near where I was I could

25     just remove them -- actually ask them, "What is your age?"  When he says

Page 22939

 1     12, 13, 14, or whatever, I would say, "No, no, take him back" and follow

 2     and ensure that he goes back to the buses with their families.  And as is

 3     documented, immediately I could turn and do other things or follow the

 4     route, I would find the same boys -- some of those boys had been taken

 5     back, but obviously I saved a few.

 6             What I'm saying is I had no interest in either the Muslims or the

 7     Serbs.  I was interested in making sure that at least these boys are not

 8     harmed because they were not of fighting age.  They were not soldiers at

 9     all.

10        Q.   I am grateful to you for each and every one that you had singled

11     out.  However, my point is that you were respected by the Army of

12     Republika Srpska and that they did what you asked them to do.  Isn't that

13     right?

14        A.   Your Honour, you're wrong.  You're very wrong on that, in that I

15     was not doing anything for either side.  It's documented that I was

16     respected or the UNMOs were respected from both sides of the divide, from

17     the BSA side and from the Muslim side, we were respected because we were

18     neutral.  So seeing this happening and telling them, the boys -- you

19     know, saving the boys does not mean that I was working for the Muslims.

20     I was not at all.  And actually, it would be wrong to assume that I was

21     working for any of those sides because I was not.

22        Q.   My question probably was not clear to you.  I thanked you for

23     saving them, but my point was that you did have that option, that the

24     Serbian soldiers did listen to you.  If you said, "This young man is not

25     going there," in that case they obeyed you.  I mean, you did manage to do

Page 22940

 1     what you did; right?

 2        A.   Your Honour, if you listen to me properly I said at that

 3     particular moment they could agree and let the boys leave, but

 4     immediately I turned and walked towards a certain direction, some of them

 5     could be removed, meaning they were not that -- as obedient as you are

 6     trying to put it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D04974 for a

 9     second, please.  This should already be uploaded into e-court.  I'm sorry

10     for not referring to it in advance, but I feel that I need to show it

11     because of two paragraphs.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You can see that this is a report on the meeting between

14     General Mladic -- actually, on the meeting of UNPROFOR soldiers

15     separately with General Mladic and then General Halilovic.  And then they

16     refer to some ammunition that was found, what Mladic requested.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we look at the next page.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mladic says here that NATO planes should not fly low and then in

20     the second paragraph that Serbs are ready to negotiate and to resolve any

21     problems by political means.  Then in paragraph 5 that Mladic said that

22     he could have taken Srebrenica whenever he wanted to but he didn't wish

23     to do that, that he wanted a political solution.  And then in the fourth

24     paragraph that he would refer them to the government and the parliament

25     of Republika Srpska for all political matters.  And then one paragraph

Page 22941

 1     but last, where it says that after Mladic they also spoke to Halilovic,

 2     and Halilovic said:

 3             [In English] "He went to -- on to say that if Srebrenica fell,

 4     chaos would follow since the population would attempt to take revenge."

 5             [Interpretation] Already in 1993 it was clear there were

 6     atrocities committed on all sides and that if the Serbs were to return,

 7     the population would retaliate, and he did not accuse the army but the

 8     population of retaliating.  And then in the last paragraph he said that

 9     he would attend meetings if the offensive were to be halted.  And I

10     halted the offensive and I banned any kind of investigations because they

11     would lead to revenge.  Did you know about that?

12        A.   Your Honour, you mentioned that on Monday when we met, but for

13     sure this was April 1993 and it's good that you stopped that fight at

14     that time.  But I also wish you did the same in 1995, to save the enclave

15     and the people therein.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

17     document.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether we have a basis to admit this

19     through this witness.

20             Ms. West.

21             MS. WEST:  I object to the admission.

22             JUDGE KWON:  For the same reason, we'll not admit this,

23     Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Kingori, there is one thing that is quite confusing to me,

Page 22942

 1     it's causing confusion.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D04784, please.  There

 3     should be a translation.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   While we're waiting for the translation, this is an intercepted

 6     conversation intercepted by the Muslim state security from Tuzla on the

 7     16th of July, and General Mladic here informs about me reporting to

 8     Tolimir, Toso, how Karisik, the police commander, informed me that

 9     Pandurevic agreed the passage of these Muslims to their territory.  And

10     then Mladic says:  I am -- since I have nothing to do with him -- asked

11     the duty officers to urgently make the connection.

12             Did you know that we opened the corridor and enabled the passage

13     of civilians and a number of the fighters through our territory, in spite

14     of battles that went on until the 16th?  We enabled them to pass through.

15        A.   Your Honour, the thing I knew was that the -- according to the

16     document you showed yesterday, they fought their way out of the enclave.

17     But it could also have been to your interest to give them safe passage so

18     that you don't encounter a lot of problems.  In fact, it could have been

19     better for them to leave the enclave to you because that is how initially

20     from the starting of the war that is what the BSA wanted.

21        Q.   Sir, I am not asking you about motives but about facts.  Did you

22     know that in spite of major casualties, both on the Serbian and the

23     Muslim side, and in spite of ongoing fighting, the corridor was opened

24     for the column to pass through?  Because a little bit earlier you said

25     that I should have done something to save the enclave in 1995, like I did

Page 22943

 1     in 1993.  And here is the answer.  Even though there were fighters and it

 2     was a legitimate target and even though there were many casualties on the

 3     Serb side on this route, ultimately we did open up the corridor for them

 4     to pass through, whereas the buses went on their own route.  We're

 5     talking about combat breakthrough here.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Your Honour, I said that really it was to your interest that you

 7     allow them to leave, that you give them a route out, not necessarily a

 8     safe one, but at least a route out.  If you press somebody towards a

 9     certain place, really, and you want them out of your way, you give them

10     an escape route and you did exactly that, the same way that you provided

11     buses for the others who had been brought all the way up to Potocari to

12     leave the enclave, not telling them to stay so that you could live

13     together in harmony or looking for a political solution, but to make sure

14     that they get out of the enclave.  So to achieve -- that was meant to

15     achieve your initial objective.

16        Q.   Sir, now you are behaving partially and as the Prosecutor.  This

17     is not for you to say, but let us go back to the buses --

18             JUDGE KWON:  No --

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you know the contents of the two meetings?

21             MS. WEST:  Mr. President --

22             JUDGE KWON:  It's time to conclude.  You put your last question.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I would just like to cover one last topic and there will be

Page 22944

 1     two or three additional questions.  Do you know about the meeting between

 2     Karremans and Mladic, two meetings in the evening of the 11th of July?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I heard about those meetings.

 4        Q.   Do you know the content of the meetings?  Do you know that

 5     Karremans came and said that he was given an assignment, he was asked to

 6     ask the Serbian side to permit the evacuation of civilians?

 7        A.   Yes, I heard about that.

 8        Q.   Do you know that the Serbian side didn't have anything prepared

 9     and that the Serbian side had asked for buses from the United Nations and

10     that they got the reply that they didn't have buses but that they would

11     provide fuel?

12        A.   Your Honour, I was not aware of that.  What I was aware of is

13     that we requested that the UN brings buses to pick the Muslims from the

14     enclave, that is, from the Potocari area out to Tuzla.  And

15     General Mladic said no.  He's the one who is going to provide buses.  And

16     it is all documented.

17        Q.   Sir, you spoke about that with Mladic on the 12th of July, but on

18     the 11th, in the evening, Karremans convinced Mladic that the

19     United Nations did not have buses.  Who authorised you?  Who promised and

20     who said that the United Nations did have buses?  Which of your bosses

21     did that?

22             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would object to a misstatement of the

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you would like to have the reference if --

25             MS. WEST:  Well, I'm objecting to the word "convinced," but I

Page 22945

 1     think that's inaccurate -- an inaccurate description of the transcript.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Hmm.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mladic was told in the evening of the 11th of July that the

 6     United Nations did not have buses, so he took it upon himself to secure

 7     the buses.  And on the 12th that is what he did.  However, on the

 8     12th of July, you offered buses to him.  In whose name?  If Karremans

 9     says that there were no buses, what were the buses that you were counting

10     on then?

11        A.   Your Honour, we had requested through our normal channels for

12     buses to be brought so that they could be able to evacuate the Muslims

13     from the enclave and they were told that that could be organised and that

14     is what I told General Ratko Mladic, I told him about the same.  But

15     later on -- immediately he said, "No, I have organised my own transport

16     and it is the one that is going to take these people outside the enclave.

17     I don't need the UN."

18        Q.   But who told you that the United Nations had buses when Karremans

19     said that they did not?  Who was it who told you that they did have them?

20        A.   Your Honour, I think we may dwell on this for a long, long time.

21     But for sure, if Karremans had requested through his channels, through

22     UNPROFOR, and I requested through military observers, these are two

23     different channels.  I don't mean that it doesn't go to the same place.

24     It could have eventually have gone to the logistics side.  Maybe he had

25     the good answer of -- that the UN does not have buses.  Or maybe I had a

Page 22946

 1     good answer that they are going to send buses.  But for sure

 2     General Mladic told me openly that he does not need the UN buses.  So it

 3     really does not matter whether Karremans had assured -- had told

 4     General Mladic that he had no buses.  It really does not matter.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kingori, you said you had "requested through our

 6     normal channels for buses to be brought."  When did you make that request

 7     and specifically when?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, we called that morning and said that

 9     the humanitarian catastrophe -- not catastrophe, the humanitarian

10     situation in the enclave --

11             JUDGE KWON:  "That morning" being 12th?

12             THE WITNESS:  The morning of 12th.  We had said:  Up to now we

13     need people to be removed from the enclave, the Muslims who are inside

14     there, and that included the whole lot even of us.  And I was told that

15     the UN would send buses.  They did not say when --

16             JUDGE KWON:  So who, specifically who do you mean by the UN?

17             THE WITNESS:  The military observer command chain because I

18     talked to our sector --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Sector North-east?

20             THE WITNESS:  Sector North-east.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS:  Those are the ones I requested.  So -- and I was

23     assured that there would be a transport but they didn't say when.  But

24     then immediately I told that to General Ratko Mladic.  He said he does

25     not need the UN, he is going to provide buses.  And within a very short

Page 22947

 1     time the buses were available.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Kingori, there's another thing that concerns me.  That whole

 5     day Mladic was accompanied by journalists and TV cameras.  I had the

 6     opportunity to ask Mladic.  He remembers you but he claims that you did

 7     not even exchange a single sentence --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please call Mladic for your Defence

 9     witness.  The witness has answered that question.  I think you --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   But the question is:  You had spent a half an hour with him once,

13     and then the second time, how many minutes did you spend with him?

14        A.   Your Honour, the second session with General Mladic did not take

15     long.  We didn't stay much with him, but the first one took a bit long

16     time.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can I tender this

19     intercept, please?  1D04784.

20             MS. WEST: [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MS. WEST:  There is an English translation of that and it's a

23     duplicate of 65 ter 31129A, so maybe you can just admit that one.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But do we have a basis to admit this?  You do not

25     object to --

Page 22948

 1             MS. WEST:  I don't object.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  You do not object to it.

 3             Can we upload it before we admit it.  I would like to see it.

 4             English translation as well.

 5             Mr. Karadzic, when you asked the witness that you -- "we opened

 6     the corridor for the column," what did you mean by "we"?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, I was informed by a

 8     policeman and asked for my approval to support Pandurevic to open the

 9     corridor.  I called Tolimir.  Tolimir called Mladic and Mladic sent a

10     telegram on the matter.  Here this is all being described.  We, the

11     Serbs - not I personally, but I did support and protect the back of

12     Pandurevic to open it up so that the people can pass through.  There was

13     an entire set of communication between Pandurevic and the Muslim

14     commander from Tuzla to secure that there are no clashes so that they

15     could pass through.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Given the position of the Prosecution,

17     we'll admit this.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2002, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just conclude.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I'm sorry that I had to be specific about many

23     things.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And for the transcript, I have to

25     tell the Trial Chamber that there are plenty of paragraphs left that the

Page 22949

 1     Defence would have needed to dwell on and to clarify but did not have

 2     time to do.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

 4             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Re-examination by Ms. West:

 6        Q.   Mr. Kingori, I just want to go back to about a half an hour ago

 7     when we were speaking about prisoners of war and we looked at your

 8     amalgamated statement, particularly we're looking at paragraph 173, where

 9     it says, it's short:

10             "When the men were being taken to the buses, they were not

11     allowed to go back and pick up their belongings.  They were being put in

12     the buses without their belongings, without the items that they were

13     forced to leave out there.  They were taken towards the buses one by one,

14     like they were prisoners of war, one by one, one following each other,

15     with no space in between, and the soldiers everywhere."

16             Sir, my question for you is:  Did you use the term "prisoners of

17     war" in here because of what you visually saw, this formation line?

18        A.   Your Honour, it's very clear from what I've written here that

19     that these to me were normal civilians, normal Muslims, inside the

20     enclave, normal men who had been separated from their families.  And

21     right now they're being forced to enter buses to go to destinations they

22     did not know without their belongings and other items, like

23     identification, that they had left outside.  And then they were being

24     taken like they were prisoners of war, one by one, following each other,

25     and being closely guarded like they were POWs.  That does not mean that

Page 22950

 1     they were prisoners of war.

 2        Q.   And the following paragraph, 174, speaks about their

 3     identifications.  In your experience, is it customary with prisoners of

 4     war to take their identifications from them?

 5        A.   Your Honour, it's illegal to remove identification cards,

 6     identification tags, from an individual.  It's wrong.  Because eventually

 7     you may not be able to identify who that particular person was.

 8             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, may we go into private session?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask -- I'm sorry.  I

11     thought that it was finished.

12   [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22951

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13        Q.   Sir we're going to -- if we can go to 65 ter 23109A.  And this is

14     an MSF document.  We're looking at page ending in 6146.  And for ease of

15     reference, Colonel, I put this in front of you in hard copy because I

16     thought it would be faster.  And we're looking at the one that says 6146.

17     This is a document that's dated July 9th.  Now, on July 9th, was that the

18     day that you left Srebrenica --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, that is the time we left

21     Srebrenica.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We didn't hear you, Mr. Karadzic.  You would like to

23     see the page?  Yes, it's coming.

24             MS. WEST:  I'm sorry.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated] Now I have it.  Thanks.

Page 22952

 1             Sorry, I have it now.  Thank you.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   So that is the day that you left, but there was a period of time

 4     where you were still in Srebrenica that day.  Can you describe the

 5     shelling going on?

 6        A.   Your Honour, we were there from morning up to later in the

 7     afternoon and the shelling was continuous, heavy shelling.  And it was

 8     centred mainly in the town of Srebrenica and other outlying towns.

 9        Q.   And so in this document we see at the first line, this is from

10     the woman at MSF:

11             "Heavy shelling continuously over the day, mostly in the

12     town ..."

13             And is that consistent with your memory as well?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it is.

15        Q.   I want to go down a little bit where it says:

16             "The president has a meeting now with opstina where they will

17     decide what to do ..."

18             Where she here refers to the president, is that the person to

19     whom you, I think, referred to as the mayor, Mr. Suljic?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honour, this is Osman Suljic.

21        Q.   And yesterday when you were shown document P4150 by Mr. Karadzic,

22     and that's when you made your comments, this is in fact the same person?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

24        Q.   She writes:

25             "UNHCR asked the president if a request for evacuation of the

Page 22953

 1     population should be done.  Not yet was the answer ..."

 2             Colonel, when you were describing that letter from Mr. Suljic as

 3     not being taken in isolation, I'll ask you this:  Does it surprise you

 4     that at this point he had not yet asked for an evacuation?

 5        A.   Your Honour, it just confirms what I had said, that by that time

 6     it had not been made.

 7        Q.   I'm going to refer you to yesterday's transcript, 22893 and 94.

 8     At that point Mr. Karadzic said:

 9             "Do you know that both Doctors Without Borders and UNPROFOR

10     reported that Serbs were not hitting buildings or features but they were

11     firing around to prevent movement, so-called barrage fire to prevent

12     movement?"

13             Do you remember that question, Colonel?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

15        Q.   And I would like to refer you now to what's marked 6156.  And in

16     e-court I think it's page 3 of this document.  Yes, it's on the screen

17     now.

18             This is an MSF document from the 10th of July.  And here MSF

19     writes:

20             "The hospital is totally overcrowded ..."

21             She goes on:

22             "According to people coming from the centre we can expect plenty

23     of wounded."

24             And then a little bit further below she says:

25             "I stated very clearly that I want to have a neutral zone so it

Page 22954

 1     cannot be a target," and here she's talking about the hospital.  Was it

 2     your understanding on the 10th of July that at this point it was MSF's

 3     position that she did not want security at the hospital so it would not

 4     be a target?

 5        A.   Yes, Your Honour, hospitals internationally are not supposed to

 6     be targeted, but if there are soldiers or there is an armoury or

 7     something that can attract bombardment from the other side, it would be

 8     dangerous for those who are sick and being treated in the hospital.  So I

 9     agree with MSF that there was a need to maintain neutrality, not to have

10     soldiers guarding the hospital.

11        Q.   And if we can go to 6157, which in e-court will be page 4.  This

12     is the same day a little bit later in which she is writing to a captain,

13     she says:

14             "I have to inform you about the fact that now the surrounding of

15     the hospital and our house are being targeted by the shells."

16             "... for us it's not possible anymore to move out of the

17     shelter."

18             Sir, is this consistent with the information that you had as

19     well?

20        A.   Your Honour, this clearly confirms what I had said, that the

21     hospital had been targeted and that it was easy for us to identify a

22     place which was being targeted.

23        Q.   Now I would like to go to e-court --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  For what and --

Page 22955

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is redefining the

 2     question.  The Prosecutor's question was:  Is it correct that the area

 3     surrounding the hospital became a target, whereas the witness says the

 4     hospital became a target.  The surrounding area is different from the

 5     hospital itself.  It's the kind of gun-fire that does not imply anyone

 6     moving around.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The documents are there and the witness answered as

 8     far as he can.  So I don't understand the objection.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, the objection is

10     the fact that the question is being redefined.  It's not the hospital

11     that was being targeted but the surrounding area.  That was the question.

12     It was a question of barrage fire, them not being able to move around.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Your objection is overruled.

14             Let's continue, Ms. West.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

16        Q.   I'm directing you to yesterday at 22904, Mr. Karadzic was asking

17     you questions about some of the reports that you had written, and in

18     particular you had written that the BSA was being hostile.  And he was

19     suggesting that you were using language unfairly with the Serbs.  And his

20     question was:

21             "... so you vilify the Serbs that no one else who is in the same

22     places as you were never wrote anything remotely similar or said anything

23     remotely similar.  That's why I'm challenging your entire statement.  Why

24     did this lady," he meant the MSF lady, "not describe these drastic

25     threats," for example, "issued to old women, people saying that they

Page 22956

 1     would be killed?"

 2             So I want to talk about this issue of whether other organisations

 3     were reporting the activities that you described as hostile by the BSA.

 4     We're going to look at 6180, which is I believe e-court page 5 of this

 5     exhibit.  This is another document from MSF.  This is on the

 6     13th of July.

 7             "Just coming from the empty camp.  It is 4.00 p.m. and all the

 8     people are evacuated.  We have taken into charge plenty old people who

 9     cannot walk and have together with the UN transported them here."

10             Is that reference in regard to the trip that you took to

11     Srebrenica with MSF?

12        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  She's referring to that trip.

13        Q.   "I see BSA beatings and harassing a crazy man.  Horror."

14             Sir, would you agree that your reporting of these hostile

15     incidents that you saw, at least in this case seems to be reported by

16     another organisation as well?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it's quite evident.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I do not follow, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is now manipulation on the

21     part of the Prosecutor.  We saw that in Prijedor a man was killed, a man

22     who was insane, but I was speaking to Mr. Kingori about this statement to

23     the effect that an old lady was being mistreated in a hospital and the

24     MSF said something else.  I objected to something different from what the

25     Prosecutor is saying now.

Page 22957

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The grounds were completely

 3     different for this claim.

 4             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would just point out on the record I

 5     did read that particular part, but you will remember right before that

 6     the accused referenced specifically paragraph 184, 185 and 186 on how you

 7     smeared Serbian soldiers.  You say:

 8             "... they threatened old women and you use a euphemism when you

 9     say 'a bit hostile,' 'that was a bit hostile.'"

10             I would suggest that what he was saying was general and we're not

11     specifically talking about this old woman.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I find the line of redirect absolutely legitimate.

13     Please continue.

14             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would tender those four documents in

15     that 65 ter number and I would ask that they be tendered under seal.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we add that part to the previous one or shall

17     we admit it as a separate document?

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE KWON:  I thought this -- part of the same document had been

20     already admitted as Defence exhibit.  It was my mistake.  We'll admit

21     this.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4166, under seal, Your Honours.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             May we go into open session?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 22958

 1                           [Open session]

 2             MS. WEST:  Mr. President --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had objected to this

 4     manipulation.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Your terminology of "manipulation" is not

 6     acceptable, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             Yes, Ms. West.

 8             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, is it time for a break?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  How long would you need to conclude?

10             MS. WEST:  I think as a result of today's examination, I would at

11     least need another ten minutes or so, or 15 minutes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll take a break.

13             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  That should be okay with your travel plan,

15     Mr. Kingori?

16             THE WITNESS:  It's okay with me, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at ten past 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

22             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, over the break, I streamlined my

23     questions.  So I'm sorry, but my 10- to 15-minute estimate is now much

24     shorter.

25             May we have P02276 [Realtime transcript read in error "P02267"].

Page 22959

 1        Q.   Colonel, yesterday at transcript 22909, Mr. Karadzic asked you

 2     this:

 3             "And do you know, Mr. Kingori, that the United Nations and the

 4     Muslim side already on the 10th knew that the Serbs do not have a

 5     decision to the effect that they would enter Srebrenica?  On the

 6     10th of July, the Serbs do not intend to go into Srebrenica and yet all

 7     of the intercepts and all of the reports showed that?"

 8             Do you remember being asked that question?

 9        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

10        Q.   So you were asked what the UN and the Muslims thought about the

11     Serb decision regarding entering Srebrenica.  I'd like to look at what

12     the Serbs were saying even before the 10th.  And if you see this document

13     before you, it's dated 9th --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit Number is 2276 not 67.

15             MS. WEST:  2276, yes, thank you.

16        Q.   It's dated the 9th, it's from General Tolimir and it's to the

17     Drina Corps, the President of Republika Srpska, for information.  It

18     says:

19             "The president of Republika Srpska has been informed of the

20     successful combat operations around Srebrenica by units of the

21     Drina Corps and that they have achieved results which enabled them to

22     occupy the very town of Srebrenica."

23             Colonel, on the 9th of July, when this was written, is this --

24     are these words consistent with your observations that the Serbs were on

25     their way in?

Page 22960

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour, it is very consistent and remembering that that

 2     is the day we left Srebrenica for Potocari, it was evident that they were

 3     coming in in an infantry way, meaning that is after having finished

 4     softening the whole target.

 5        Q.   It goes on to say:

 6             "The president of the republic is satisfied with the results of

 7     combat operations around Srebrenica and has agreed with the continuation

 8     of operations for the take-over of Srebrenica, disarming of Muslim

 9     terrorist gangs, and complete demilitarisation of the Srebrenica

10     enclave."

11             So, sir, after the 9th and beginning on the -- or this is dated

12     the 9th and those days after, did this -- those combat operations

13     continue?

14        A.   Your Honour, it is true the combat operations continued in the

15     enclave.

16             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 19553, please.

17        Q.   Colonel, at 22899 transcript page, the accused in a question

18     said:

19             "I did not say that you were useless, sir.  It was the highest

20     commanders of the UNPROFOR who said that military observers were

21     useless."

22             I'd like to show you a report done by NIOD, this is, done by the

23     Dutch military, and it's before you now, and I'd like to go to page 3 of

24     the English and look at their comments and I'll ask you something

25     afterwards.  It's a paragraph that begins with "The one UNMO ..."

Page 22961

 1             "The one UNMO who appears to have been most active in those days

 2     after the fall was the Kenyan Major J. Kingori.  He could, in fact, be

 3     seen in the film images made on July 12th after the entry of the Serb

 4     troops and Mladic.  He was also the one who asked him why the men were

 5     being separated.  At Franken's request he watched the white house on July

 6     13th to check whether the number of men who were led in corresponded with

 7     the number who came out.  And as DutchBat soldier Karremans wrote in his

 8     diary, Kingori also protested continually against the brutal manner in

 9     which people were packed together in the buses."

10             Colonel, do you agree with these comments that are made here?

11        A.   Your Honour, I wholly agree with the observations made here and

12     all these comments.

13             MS. WEST:  I'd now like to go to 65 ter 3991.

14        Q.   Now I'd like to look at comments regarding your job activities

15     made by your own superiors.  This is July 9th and it's to the military

16     observers in Srebrenica and it's from the CMO.  Can you tell us what CMO

17     means?

18        A.   Your Honour, CMO means chief military observer.  That was the

19     head of the military mission in former Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   The subject is "Congratulations."

21             "I would like to pass on my sincerest congratulations to UNMO

22     Srebrenica for your timely and detailed reports.  Given the circumstances

23     you are under this is a commendable achievement.  The information you

24     produced on 8 July ... was of the highest order and was noted in the

25     forum of the Force Commanders conference 9 July ... by the Chief of Staff

Page 22962

 1     who remarked on the 'content and accuracy of the UNMO Srebrenica report.'

 2             "I wish you to endeavour to maintain your excellent standards of

 3     work, and above all else, stay safe ..."

 4             Colonel, do you remember receiving these remarks from your

 5     superiors?

 6        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I do.

 7             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I don't have any more questions.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  You are not tendering those two

10     documents?

11             MS. WEST:  I'm not.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then that concludes your evidence,

13     Mr. Kingori.  Colonel, on behalf of this Chamber as well as the Tribunal

14     as a whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague again

15     to give it.  Now you are free to go.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE KWON:  So you will be calling the next witness?

19             MS. WEST:  Yes, Mr. President.  The Prosecution calls

20     Paul Groenewegen.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. WEST:  And if I can -- for the record, two days ago, on

23     January 11th, you asked us to take Colonel Kingori's diary.  We did that.

24     We had it rescanned to a more legible version.  It was provided to

25     Mr. Karadzic, and it's P4140.

Page 22963

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             While the next witness is being brought in, there's one matter

 3     I'd like to deal with.  I note that Mr. Tieger is not here, but I take it

 4     Madam Uertz-Retzlaff can take care of this.

 5             The Chamber -- but it's my -- this is only related to the

 6     Defence, however.

 7             The Chamber is seized of the accused's motion to compel

 8     inspection of items, material to the Sarajevo Defence case filed publicly

 9     with a confidential annex on 28th of October, 2011, in which the accused

10     requests pursuant to Rule 66(B) that the Chamber compel inspection of

11     four categories of materials relating to 201 prospective Defence

12     witnesses that may be called in the Sarajevo component of his Defence

13     case.

14             As part of its assessment of the motion and as noted in

15     Appeals Chamber decisions, such as the Bagosora decision on interlocutory

16     appeal relating to disclosure under Rule 66(B) of the Tribunal's

17     Rules of Procedure and Evidence, issued on 25 September 2006, the Chamber

18     examines whether the accused has demonstrated prima facie that the

19     requested items are in the custody or control of the Prosecutor, in

20     particular in cases where the Prosecution challenges the custody or the

21     control of the material sought.

22             In the Prosecution's response to the motion to compel inspection

23     of items material to the Sarajevo Defence case filed publicly with the

24     confidential annexes on 10th of November, 2011, the Prosecution contends

25     that the accused provides no basis to conclude that the vast array of

Page 22964

 1     requested material is in the Prosecution's possession, and thus is

 2     engaging in a speculative approach with regard to the third prong of this

 3     test.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber also notes that the accused's submission

 6     lacks any showing in this regard.

 7             Before the Chamber rules on the motion, I thus wish to inquire

 8     with the Defence if it can clarify on which basis it considers that it

 9     has demonstrated prima facie that such categories of items relating to

10     these protected Sarajevo witnesses are in the custody or control of the

11     Prosecution.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, would you like us to do that in

13     writing or --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  We'll do that.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir, for your patience.

17             Would the witness kindly take the solemn declaration.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hereby state that I will tell the

19     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen.  Would you make yourself

21     comfortable, please.

22             Yes, Ms. West.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             May we have 65 ter 90300, please.

25                           WITNESS:  PAUL GROENEWEGEN

Page 22965

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Examination by Ms. West:

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   Can you tell me your name.

 6        A.   Paul Groenewegen.

 7        Q.   Sir, you've testified in the Blagojevic case in 2003; the

 8     Popovic case in 2006; and the Tolimir case in 2010.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   An amalgamated statement was prepared containing relevant

11     portions of your prior testimonies, and this is a statement which you

12     reviewed and signed on the 11th of November, 2010.  Is that correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   And is this the statement that you see on the screen before you?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Can you confirm that the statement accurately reflects an

17     amalgamation of the testimonies that you've previously given?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Sir, and if you were asked today about the same matters contained

20     in the statement, would you provide the same information to the

21     Trial Chamber?

22        A.   Of course.

23             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would tender the statement.  There

24     are also eight associated exhibits.  Of the eight, there are three we do

25     not tender.  I will recite the three numbers.  65 ter 19529,

Page 22966

 1     65 ter 40582, and 65 ter 02700, as that was admitted previously by an

 2     earlier witness.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit them all.  In the meantime, could we

 6     upload 65 ter number 2648.  I'm not sure we are able to see the markings

 7     the witness allegedly made on the map.

 8             MS. WEST:  I -- it was my understanding, Mr. President, that he

 9     pointed out the two OPs on this map which are already marked, the M and

10     the N, but we can have him -- I can address that with him directly.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

12             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  And at first I'd like to read a summary.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Please read out slowly for the sake of the

14     interpreters.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So 2648 will not be admitted as an associated

16     exhibit.  You will deal with it --

17             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  -- directly.

19             Yes.  But shall we give the number at least for the -- for his

20     92 ter statement.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4167, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Yes, Ms. West.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

25             The witness first enlisted in the Dutch army as a private in

Page 22967

 1     January 1994.  He served continuously from that time until December 2003.

 2     As part of his military service, he was posted in Potocari from January

 3     to July 1995.  His main duty during that time was to patrol the area.

 4     The purpose of these patrols was to ensure that the cease-fire was

 5     respected by both sides.

 6             During the first months of his assignment, he witnessed military

 7     activity between the VRS and the BiH, including fire exchanges and some

 8     explosions.  He also saw a BiH military presence in the form of men,

 9     small-calibre weapons within the enclave.  They appeared to him as

10     civilians, attempting to protect the enclave, rather than an organised

11     military unit.  DutchBat soldiers were tasked with disarming the BiH.

12     They very rarely saw armed men within the enclave.  Though he learned

13     after leaving the region that the BiH army sometimes left the

14     demilitarised zone to take certain actions, he never witnessed this at

15     the time.

16             The witness was stationed at OP Mike in early July, when VRS

17     soldiers began to fire at the Dutch with small- and large-calibre weapons

18     and mortar shells.  There was no communication between VRS forces and

19     DutchBat even though he could see them from the OP.  Communication with

20     other DutchBat soldiers confirmed that other OPs were also under attack

21     during the same period.  The witness interpreted these VRS actions as

22     provocation rather than an attempt to harm DutchBat soldiers, since the

23     shootings did not hit their targets.

24             The witness returned to Potocari on 10 July as part of his

25     regular rotation.  DutchBat soldiers there were tense because they

Page 22968

 1     expected some VRS action to take place imminently.  Early the next

 2     morning, refugees began to arrive from Srebrenica, mostly on foot.  They

 3     seemed very afraid.  The DutchBat soldiers were tasked with ensuring that

 4     the refugees would make it safely to the compound.  Refugees continued to

 5     arrive throughout the day, and by the evening of 11 July, thousands were

 6     in Potocari, inside and outside the UN compound.  There were women,

 7     children, elderly men, and not enough food or blankets to provide them.

 8             VRS soldiers approached Potocari from the north during the day of

 9     July 12th.  Some units had dogs.  Other VRS troops approached through the

10     hills and the witness saw houses burning on their path, first from the

11     direction of OP Papa, then continuously closer to Potocari.  The houses

12     burned in a wave.

13             Following the first troops, the infantry came in and then other

14     groups with cameras and sound reporting and officers who appeared to be

15     acting in co-ordination with the earlier group.  DutchBat soldiers

16     created a buffer zone to protect the refugees from VRS soldiers who were

17     approaching them aggressively.

18             Bread trucks and a crew from Serbian television arrived.  Bread

19     was distributed to the refugees in what appeared to be a propaganda

20     stunt.  The witness learned that the refugees were to be taken out of

21     Potocari and buses later arrived to transport them.  First to board the

22     buses were those who wanted to leave.  When refugees who did not wish to

23     be transported refused to get on the buses, the VRS initially shouted at

24     them, but then ultimately violence was used to get the refugees onto the

25     buses.

Page 22969

 1             The Dutch soldiers attempted to intervene but were ineffective

 2     because of the language barrier and confusion.  Only women, children, and

 3     elderly men were being transported, as the men had already been

 4     separated.  The witness believed that the women and children had not gone

 5     to Potocari of their own free will.  The witness believed that they had

 6     no other option.  The transportation of refugees continued throughout the

 7     day, and the witness estimates that thousands of refugees were forced on

 8     the buses that day.

 9             There were some men present at Potocari.  Serb soldiers separated

10     them from their families before the women and children were led to the

11     buses.  These hundreds of men were taken to an empty house.  These men

12     were aged between 16 and 60 years.  The refugees that remained overnight

13     were mostly those who did not want to leave and they were very fearful.

14     The transportation of refugees continued the next day.  The witness's

15     role was to ensure that the transportation took place as calmly as

16     possible and to limit aggression on both sides.  Serb soldiers continued

17     to separate men from the rest of the refugees.  The men were taken to a

18     house, and once the house was full, separate buses came to take them

19     away.  He estimates that a few hundred men were separated.

20             The witness saw General Mladic in Potocari on both the 12th and

21     13th.  He was moving through the area with his regular military staff.

22             During the evacuation the witness's attention was drawn to a

23     group of four Serbian soldiers surrounding a Muslim man, four VRS

24     soldiers.  The soldiers were wearing camouflage uniforms of various

25     colours without any visible insignia.  The witness, however, confirmed

Page 22970

 1     that the soldiers all seemed to belong to the Bosnian Serb army, even

 2     though they were dressed differently.  The soldiers -- the man was

 3     dressed as a civilian and did not appear to be armed.  The soldiers took

 4     him away and forced him to stand facing a wall, and from a distance of

 5     about 3 metres, one of them shot him through the back of the head and he

 6     collapsed.  The witness reported this to his superiors.

 7             The witness remained at Potocari until the 20th of July.

 8             Your Honour, that concludes my summary.  I just have a few

 9     questions.  May we go into private session, please?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22971

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

12             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

13             And if we can turn to Sanction.  This is 65 ter 2648.

14        Q.   Sir, when you were in Srebrenica you were posted to two different

15     OPs, is that right, observation posts?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   What were the name of those observation posts?

18        A.   Initially OP Papa and OP November.

19        Q.   And were you ever assigned to another OP as well?

20        A.   Later on, we handed OP Papa over to another unit and went to

21     OP Mike.

22        Q.   Now, in front of you is a map and you can see where Srebrenica is

23     located, and there is -- then there is a sort of light purple line that

24     goes around Srebrenica with letters on that line.  Do you recognise what

25     that line is?

Page 22972

 1        A.   This is the enclave with the observation posts.

 2        Q.   And at the top of the line as the letters of the alphabet go

 3     around we see M -- this is on the northern edge of that line, M, N, O, P.

 4     Do those represent where those observation posts were located?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And is it correct, then, that you were assigned at one point to

 7     OP Papa, P; OP November, which would be N; and OP Mike, which would be M?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9             MS. WEST:  May we tender this, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4172, Your Honours.

12             MS. WEST:

13        Q.   Sir, in front of you in hard copy you have your statement, your

14     amalgamated statement, and you can refer to it at any time.  At this

15     point I'm going to look at paragraph 60 and 61 of your statement.  And in

16     that paragraph you described the execution you witnessed.  And you said

17     the soldiers who took the civilian man behind the house were all dressed

18     in different sorts of camouflage uniforms, but you nonetheless -- you

19     believed that they were not paramilitaries but that they belonged to the

20     BSA.

21             Can you tell us what it is about what you observed that led you

22     to believe that they all belonged to the BSA?

23        A.   Different groups were present, of course the very large group of

24     refugees, and they clearly didn't belong to them; and to me, that was the

25     reason to assume that they pertained to the BSA.

Page 22973

 1        Q.   But since they were dressed differently, the soldiers themselves

 2     were dressed not all in the same uniform, what was it about the way they

 3     behaved that made you believe that they all belonged to the same army and

 4     not different armies or different units or organisations?

 5        A.   Because they aggressively took away the person concerned and

 6     executed him there.

 7        Q.   Now, in paragraph --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. West.

 9             By "BSA," Bosnian Serb army, would you include so-called

10     paramilitaries as well?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't dare state anything

12     about that, but would you prefer me to describe them as VRS?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Ms. West.

15             MS. WEST:

16        Q.   In paragraph 28 of your statement, you mention that on July 12th

17     you remained in what you described as a buffer zone.  I'm going to show

18     you some video now, and this is 65 ter 40582.  And we're going to

19     start --

20             JUDGE KWON:  And whenever you refer to the trial video, I would

21     appreciate if you could refer to the page number in the transcript in

22     hard copy so that we can follow easily.  Transcript of trial video,

23     transcription.  Yes.

24             MS. WEST:  One moment, Mr. President.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 22974

 1             MS. WEST:  I'll do that in a moment, Your Honour.  I'm just going

 2     to go to another paragraph of the statement.

 3        Q.   Sir, paragraph 42 of your statement.  Thank you.

 4             You spoke about -- here you spoke about whether the women and

 5     children went to Potocari of their own free will.  And you specifically

 6     said:

 7             "I do not think that the women and children went to Potocari of

 8     their own free will, but that they had no other option."

 9             Witness, why do you believe that they had no other option?

10        A.   Well, they were offered the opportunity to leave the area, and of

11     course they would have had the option to stay but this seemed best to

12     them.

13        Q.   And can you tell us, from what you observed, why it was the best

14     option?

15        A.   Leaving the area, in my option, was always better than remaining

16     there.

17        Q.   And why was that?

18        A.   Because the enclave was being overwhelmed, I have to say, by the

19     VRS.

20        Q.   And did you see that with your own eyes?

21        A.   Well, of course I wasn't able to see everything that took place

22     there, but given that the people were that frightened, that's my reason

23     to assume that they didn't come there voluntarily.

24             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, if I may have just one moment.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 22975

 1             MS. WEST:  We're going to go back to the video.  Mr. President,

 2     at this very moment we can't locate the transcript but we could play this

 3     without any sound because I'm looking for just -- I want him to identify

 4     an area and that's all.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  So we're going to start this video.  For

 7     the record this is 40582.  It's the video V0009035.  We're starting at

 8     27.16.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, just follow along in front of you.  You can see the

10     video; correct?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MS. WEST:  Go ahead.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. WEST:  Here we're at 27.29.  We see an interview with

16     General Mladic.  But I'm interested more in the area where the interview

17     takes place.  So if we can just keep watching.  We're at 27.55 seconds.

18        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this area?

19        A.   I recognise this recording.

20        Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us, were you there at the time?

21        A.   It's not clearly visible on the images, but one of those blue

22     helmets is me.

23        Q.   Okay.  And we'll continue.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. WEST:

Page 22976

 1        Q.   This will continue to play, but is this the buffer zone you spoke

 2     about in your statement?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4             MS. WEST:  And we can stop there.  We're at 28.47.

 5        Q.   Sir, what was the purpose of the buffer zone?

 6        A.   We were informed that we had to set up a line to keep the

 7     two parties apart there.

 8             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Groenewegen, your evidence given in other Chambers were

11     admitted in an amalgamated form as you heard from Ms. West.  And now

12     you'll be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Groenewegen.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   May I ask you how old you were in 1995?  I don't see the year of

19     birth here.  You seem very young.  How old were you then?

20        A.   I was 18 in 1995.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And how much military experience did you have at that

22     time?

23        A.   One year.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And you were there as a private.  You didn't have a

25     rank or any special duties; is that right?

Page 22977

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I'm a little bit confused in view of the fact that in

 3     your statement, or rather, in your testimony of the 10th of July, 2003,

 4     on transcript page 1013, I think that's 65 ter 03237; and then in October

 5     in a different case, this is IT-05-88-T, on the 5th of October, 2006, on

 6     pages 3012 to 13, you said that you were a corporal and that you were a

 7     corporal -- I mean, were you a corporal there in January 1994?

 8        A.   That's not correct.  I can't possibly have stated that I was a

 9     corporal at the time; but when this first request to testify came, I was

10     a corporal at that time.  And that's the source of the confusion.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We clarified that.

12             And this statement from the 29th of September, 1991 [as

13     interpreted], that you gave to the military police, the Dutch military

14     police, representing the Tribunal, was that your first statement that you

15     provided to anyone?

16             MS. WEST:  I think that date must be wrong.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 -- actually,

18     paragraph 5, in the amalgamated statement.  And the statement should be

19     65 ter 19529.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It was noted as 1991 in the transcript.  That's why

21     Ms. West rose.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that I did say "1995."  I

23     apologise if I did not articulate that clearly.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Before these statements, you had one statement of the

Page 22978

 1     5th of September the same year at your ministry, and then on the

 2     29th of September, a statement to the military police which was asking

 3     you questions on behalf of this Tribunal.  Before that time, did you

 4     provide any other statement?

 5        A.   In the enclave another statement was drafted.  That was the first

 6     time I reported this incident.

 7        Q.   To whom?

 8        A.   To my immediate supervisor on site.

 9        Q.   Was this a written statement or report and do you have it?

10        A.   I don't have it and it was recorded in writing, yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If you do come across it, could you please provide it

12     to us.  And if we find it or the OTP, we would like to look at it.

13             In this debriefing of the 5th of September, is it correct that

14     you described some stages during this period?  And what I would like to

15     do is to actually check whether this was so.  You said that the first

16     stage includes the period of the fall of OP South.  Then stage two would

17     be the fall of Srebrenica.  Stage three would be receiving and evacuating

18     the local population.  And then stage four would be the evacuation of the

19     wounded and the departure of the Dutch Battalion.  Is that correct?

20        A.   If you read that out to me that way, it rings a bell, but it's

21     been a long time.  So if I'm not exactly aware of what I said on which

22     dates and how it read, I apologise.

23        Q.   Very well.  Probably this was divided in order to present the

24     events precisely according to stages, and that's how we will proceed if

25     that is okay with you.  You described in paragraph 7 of the amalgamated

Page 22979

 1     statement what your duties were.  Do you have this statement in front of

 2     you?

 3        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You were supposed to go on patrol and you say here

 5     that you were overseeing or monitoring the cease-fire.  Do you agree that

 6     you were supposed to monitor also the civilian nature of the enclave,

 7     that it was secured by somebody before you, and that it was your job to

 8     monitor it?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Then this last sentence would need to be corrected:

11             [In English] "The purpose of these border patrols was to see

12     whether there were no conflicts between the two warring parties and to

13     see whether the truce was respected."

14             [Interpretation] Am I correct if I say that it was -- the

15     conflict was frozen -- it wasn't a question of there being a halt to the

16     hostilities and overseeing the truce between the two warring parties, but

17     in fact Srebrenica was demilitarised at the time and that's what the

18     situation was?

19        A.   Quite honestly, I find this approach a bit confusing regarding

20     the assignment to us at OPs to patrol in the area and to disarm possible

21     parties that might be bearing arms, and this to us concerned primarily

22     the people within the enclave.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You were aware, thus, that the safe area or the

24     enclave was supposed to have been demilitarised, and if weapons were to

25     appear, you were authorised to confiscate the weapons.  Is that correct?

Page 22980

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Then you said that it was impossible for the Muslims

 3     in the enclave to have weapons pursuant to the agreement.

 4             [In English] "It was impossible for them to have weapons due to

 5     the agreements."

 6             [Interpretation] Would you agree that it would have been better

 7     to say it was improper rather than it was impossible?

 8             MS. WEST:  Can we just have the paragraph number, please.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  It was not fully translated, Mr. Karadzic.  What

10     paragraph is it?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I'm trying to find

12     that now.  It states "armies."  I'm not sure that this is from this

13     amalgamated statement.  I'm going to look for the reference now.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you recall saying that, that it was impossible that they had

16     weapons?

17        A.   I don't recall any of that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If we find the reference, we will show it to you.  In

19     paragraph 9 you said that you were aware of the military presence, or

20     rather, of the VRS positions outside the borders of the enclave.  Did you

21     ever see the agreement on the demilitarisation and the establishment of

22     the enclave and do you recall that the sequence of steps there was to

23     carry out the complete demilitarisation and then the Serbs would pull

24     their heavy weapons away from the enclaves?

25             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, this is a very long compound question

Page 22981

 1     and if I can just ask Mr. Karadzic to make these questions a bit more

 2     simple.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will try.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   All right.  Paragraph 9 of the amalgamated statement where you

 6     say that you were aware of the presence, or rather, the positions of the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska outside the borders of the enclave.  Did you

 8     consider that to be legitimate or illegitimate?  Would that be considered

 9     a violation of the demilitarisation agreement?

10        A.   The situation there was that from our perspective the -- it was

11     just beyond the border from our perspective at the observation post.  And

12     as soon as we didn't see any aggressive intentions, we had little control

13     of that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And in the same paragraph you say that during the

15     first months, in the beginning, you were not exposed to fire from any

16     side; is that correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And now paragraph 10 as well as your testimony in the

19     Blagojevic case on the 10th of July -  this is page 1043 - covers the

20     question of what you knew about the military structure of the Army of

21     Bosnia and Herzegovina in the enclave itself.  And then in paragraph 10

22     you say that to a degree the B&H army did have a presence inside the

23     enclave and that these were small-calibre weapons, that you did not

24     observe - and so on and so forth - weapons of large calibre.  And do you

25     agree that they did operate according to the subordination system?  You

Page 22982

 1     testified to that in the Blagojevic case in 2003.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   So this concerns the hierarchy of the army within the enclave,

 3     and as far as I could perceive there was none.  At least I never -- I was

 4     never able to see any.

 5        Q.   Would you please look at this paragraph 10 of your amalgamated

 6     statement.  And that's where you say that you agree that they did operate

 7     according to the principle of military subordination and organisation.

 8     Then you go on to say and you confirmed that in the examination-in-chief

 9     today that you understood them to be armed civilians who wanted to defend

10     their enclave.

11             This is my question:  Were you aware that the 28th Division

12     existed with four brigades, two independent battalions, and with a

13     5th Brigade in Zepa, numbering a total of 13- or 14.000 fighters, all of

14     whom perhaps did not have weapons.  But if we know that there were

15     shifts, then it's possible that they all could have been armed.  Are you

16     aware that there was the 28th Division that had at least four brigades

17     and two independent battalions with a heliport that had regular arms

18     shipments?

19        A.   I don't know about this.  This is the first time I see this

20     information that you're presenting to me now.

21        Q.   Were you able to have access all over and to see for yourselves

22     that the Muslims or the Muslim army was not concealing anything from you?

23        A.   I cannot state anything about that.  I never saw it.

24        Q.   Did you have access to wherever you wanted to check, the tank,

25     the self-propelled gun, the mortars?

Page 22983

 1             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I don't know where the second half of

 2     that question came from.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have -- well, the second

 5     part of the question is based on my thesis that there was the

 6     28th Division with three tanks, at least one self-propelled weapon,

 7     mortars of all three calibres --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Then you have to put that question first to the

 9     witness.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness said he didn't

11     see that.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   But I'm asking him now if he had access to every part of the

14     enclave in order to see for yourselves that the 28th Division was not

15     concealing anything from you?

16        A.   The area where I stayed was from OP Papa to OP Mike, November and

17     the immediate vicinity, and I was basically never in the rest of the

18     enclave and I certainly didn't have free access to all parts of the

19     enclave.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And does that mean that you cannot testify about your

21     battalion's experiences but only about your experiences at those

22     two observation posts and about what you yourself saw in Potocari?

23        A.   Well, in any case, I can state only about what I saw myself.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I'm afraid that your statement contains positions

25     that are broader than those of those two observation posts.  Do you know

Page 22984

 1     where the Bandera Triangle is located?

 2        A.   Now that you mention this name, I can remember that it was

 3     mentioned once; but where it is, I have no idea.

 4        Q.   Were you informed by your colleagues or commanders that this was

 5     a no-go zone for you and that you never actually entered that zone,

 6     either you or your colleagues?

 7        A.   I'm sure we were notified of such at the time, but because we

 8     didn't have authority to do any business in the area where I was staying,

 9     that's why I paid no further attention to that.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have map P4172 and can we

12     ask Mr. Groenewegen to look at it and explain some things about the

13     enclave.  P4172.  Can we zoom in on the lower right-hand corner where we

14     can see the enclave.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Groenewegen, did you have any meetings or consultations in

17     the unit?  Did you have meetings where you discussed the situation or did

18     you receive any kind of information in writing?

19        A.   Prior to our deployment in that area, we were briefed once about

20     the overall situation and what the most recent developments had been and

21     that we would be replacing DutchBat II and would remain there for

22     six months.

23        Q.   Are you able to tell us what the distance is between Srebrenica

24     proper, the town of Srebrenica, and these lines marking the boundaries of

25     the enclave?  Did you know how far the observation posts were from town?

Page 22985

 1        A.   Quite honestly, I cannot state anything about that.  It would

 2     have been several kilometres, but once again, I was only in the northern

 3     part of the enclave.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Very well, then.  We will determine that on the map.

 5     Tell me about this south part, what do these yellow triangles denote?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   I've read the answer, but I didn't hear it -- now I can hear it

 8     in my earphones.  But do we agree, Mr. Groenewegen, that Zeleni Jadar is

 9     outside the enclave and that Zepa and Srebrenica are not territorially

10     integrated and this area south of the enclave belongs to the Serbs?

11        A.   When I look at this map, that should be correct, yes.

12        Q.   Do you agree that in reality the situation was that the Muslim

13     side unlawfully joined the Zepa and Srebrenica enclaves, cut off our road

14     between Milici and Skelani, made it impossible for us to transport ore,

15     and do you agree that this joining was done unlawfully, illegally?

16             MS. WEST:  Objection.

17             JUDGE KWON:  For -- on what ground, Ms. West?

18             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, it's a lot of facts in one question of

19     which this -- which this -- at this point this witness is certainly not

20     in a position to answer a question like this and it makes several

21     conclusions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The question seems to be that two enclaves were

23     unlawfully joined and he asked whether it was unlawful.  I think the

24     witness can answer the question as far as he can -- he knows.

25             Mr. Groenewegen.

Page 22986

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to stick with the idea

 2     that I was only in the northern part of the enclave and that I cannot

 3     state anything about what happened in the southern part of the enclave.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Just one more question then.  Do you agree that the operation of

 8     the Army of Republika Srpska in July 1995 began here, in the south, near

 9     Operation Post Echo marked by the letter E?

10        A.   The first information that we received about irregularities, OPs

11     being attacked, did indeed come from the south as far as I can remember.

12        Q.   Thank you.  The irregularities of attack against observation

13     posts, were the observation posts themselves the targets or did the

14     Army of Republika Srpska want to put them back in their place again and

15     separate the enclaves?

16        A.   I cannot judge about that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we then agree that you cannot be the judge of

18     other things either.  You can tell us only about things you knew and saw,

19     and concerning observation posts and attacks on them, your statement

20     contains a lot of inferences and allegations that are based on the

21     conclusions you made, not on what you saw?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could you be more specific, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Groenewegen states his

24     conclusions.  He qualifies military formations and speaks about the

25     intentions of the Army of Republika Srpska that he couldn't know about

Page 22987

 1     and he wasn't even there where the attacks happened.  He didn't see them.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. -- I ask you to be specific in this issue, but

 3     point out some paragraphs.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will, Your Excellency.  I'll be

 5     happy when we come to that, but I will suggest that we consider whether

 6     each of his particular statements is an inference or direct knowledge.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Witness, you did not see many armed people in Srebrenica, did

 9     you, and in no case did you ever seize a weapon from somebody?

10        A.   Well, to that question I can answer:  That's correct.

11        Q.   Also, you did not see or you didn't know -- but did you perhaps

12     hear of the military operations of Muslim forces from Srebrenica launched

13     from the enclave, outside the enclave, against the Serbs?

14        A.   Quite honestly, I don't recall any of that, no.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Were you aware of the mandate of military observers

16     and did you notice their presence in Srebrenica?

17        A.   Not as far as I know, no.

18        Q.   In that case it would not be correct to say, would it, that

19     military observers mediated between you and the Serbs, that on your

20     behalf they asked for safe passage or provided escort to you?

21             MS. WEST:  Objection.  He cannot answer that question.  He

22     just -- I ask that it be withdrawn.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We heard a Prosecution witness who

24     portrayed the role of two military observers in a very grand manner.  I

25     am now questioning a witness who was supposed to enjoy the services of

Page 22988

 1     these military observers.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just put your question whether he knew or not,

 3     instead of asking him whether it's correct or not.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you know that military observers were taking care of you,

 6     they were asking permits for your safe movement on your behalf, and

 7     providing escort to your unit?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   I must say -- I must ask again.  Did you know that the Muslim

10     forces made incursions into Serb villages and killed?

11        A.   Not at that time.  Later on when I was back in the Netherlands I

12     heard about that, but that otherwise does not apply to the period I was

13     there.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call 65 ter 16880, page 1.

16     And then in that document page 3.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   This is a lady, Esther van Osselen.  Do you know this lady?

19        A.   The name does not ring a bell.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 3.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You were quoted here:

24             [In English] "The Dutch soldiers were anxious about the Muslim

25     soldiers on the war path as much as they were about the Serbs.

Page 22989

 1     Paul Groenewegen (18) from Rotterdam:  'From our observation posts we saw

 2     with night vision equipment the Muslims leave the enclave mainly to

 3     smuggle stuff, but also to fight.  The next day they talked tough about

 4     how they cut Chetniks' throats.  These guys were stiff with cocaine, I

 5     can recognise that coming from Rotterdam.'"

 6             [Interpretation] What can you tell us about this?  It seems that

 7     you had night vision, that you knew about this, and that you were able to

 8     observe nightly excursions of Muslims into Serb territory and you heard

 9     them brag how they slit Serb throats, the Chetniks' throats.

10        A.   You're entirely right.  I did not say this in those exact words.

11     This was as a consequence of an interview in Assen and the words have

12     been completely distorted.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 1 again.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you agree that this lady, Ms. Esther van Osselen, was

16     reporting from Zagreb?

17        A.   That she was reporting from Zagreb does not really ring a bell to

18     me, no.

19        Q.   Is it true what it says in line 5 -- sorry, paragraph 5, where

20     you say that a Muslim soldier turned around, Bosnian Serbs turned him

21     face to the wall and pointed a gun at his head?  Did you really tell her

22     that or did she somehow make it up?

23        A.   Well, of course it's not true that she made it up, but as for it

24     having been conveyed in these words, I certainly cannot confirm that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember seeing that news article?  Why don't

Page 22990

 1     you show him the last page of this document.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Have you ever seen this in a Dutch newspaper?

 4        A.   I never saw this, no.  At one point I saw an article on a front

 5     page and the words used there were not mine either.

 6        Q.   Did this lady, Esther, record your interview?  And if we asked

 7     her, do you think she could give us the recording?  Do you remember

 8     speaking into a microphone?

 9        A.   No, I couldn't say anything about that.

10        Q.   What we see on the front page about killing a Muslim soldier is

11     not something she made up.  You told her that, and from that we must

12     infer that you also told her what she wrote on page 3.

13             MS. WEST:  Objection.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  You can ask what did the witness tell the

15     journalist since he answered that -- let me find the passage.  He said:

16             "I did not say this in those exact words.  This was as a

17     consequence of an interview in Assen ..."

18             So do you remember what you told the journalist as to the

19     incident what you allegedly saw at your OP at the time?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what I told her corresponds

21     with what I've stated here earlier.  But I was also frustrated at seeing

22     the serious distortion of my words conveyed in the newspaper.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember what you told the lady as to the

24     alleged smuggling or the attack from within to outside?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was said that that type of

Page 22991

 1     information reached us, but I never used the terms as reflected in the

 2     newspaper.  Apparently she changed my statement about the fact that we

 3     heard it into reading that I knew that and had actually seen it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             I note the time now.  It's time to take a break.  We will take a

 6     break for an hour and resume at 20 to 2.00.

 7                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  For the remainder of today's session, we'll be

10     sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with Judge Robinson -- I'm sorry,

11     Judge Morrison unable to attend due to his urgent personal reasons.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Your Excellencies, may I tender the first and the third pages of

15     this paper, the interview which in the witness's words are his words but

16     manipulated, as he said?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.  In regard to this article the

19     witness said:  I did not say that in those exact words, I never saw this,

20     those words have been completely distorted.  And as having for it being

21     conveyed in those words, I certainly cannot confirm that.

22             The witness's comments about this article bear on its

23     reliability.  In addition, when you go to the end of the article itself,

24     it indicates that the last column of the text is cut off, so it's not

25     even the full article.  And I would submit that it's not reliable for the

Page 22992

 1     Chamber to accept and I object.

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  But, Ms. West, but did he not say that she did not

 3     make this up?

 4             MS. WEST:  She's -- yes, he did, in regard to the execution that

 5     is cited in here, the subject matter of that.  But by indicating that

 6     these are not his words -- and he's indicated it four exact times, I

 7     would say that that calls into question the reliability of the article

 8     itself because we can't be sure that what is exactly conveyed is the

 9     truth.  But yes, he did say that the incident itself did happen but not

10     in this way.  And I would submit that you can't rely on this being a

11     reliable document without the journalist herself coming in here and

12     saying:  That's exactly what he said.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  If I could just be heard briefly on this point.

16     The witness did acknowledge speaking with the reporter and about the

17     topics which is covered by the article.  I think the remainder of it will

18     go to weight, whether or not what she has recorded or reported was

19     exactly what he said or distorted in some way should go to the weight but

20     not to the admissibility.  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.  So we'll -- but

23     we'll come back to this issue.  We'll rule on this issue as soon as

24     practicable when Judge Morrison comes back.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D2003, Your Honours.

Page 22993

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Page 1 and 3 as well as page 5, which is an actual

 3     clipping of Dutch newspaper.  We'll mark it for identification.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Groenewegen, I'm a little nonplussed.  Do you know about a

 8     book written by Mr. or Mrs. Praamsma containing interviews with over a

 9     hundred DutchBat members?  It's a Dutch book and the author took

10     statements from many DutchBat soldiers, including you?

11        A.   I know that a book was compiled of that, yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04720 is the next document I

13     would like to call up in e-court.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is a provisional translation into English made by my team

16     from Dutch.  Do you know this man, Frans van Rossum?

17        A.   No, he was not a direct co-worker of mine.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Would you please look at paragraph 2 where he describes the

21     moment when the Muslims threw a grenade on a DutchBat APC killing

22     Soldier van Renssen.  Have you ever heard about this?

23        A.   I've definitely heard something about that, but I'm not aware of

24     all the substantive details.

25             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I'm sorry to interrupt.  May I just be

Page 22994

 1     heard?  We've looked at this document.  I understand it's a book.  The

 2     book does not exist in this building.  The book I think is only in Dutch

 3     and so this translation is just -- looks like paragraphs from particular

 4     pages.  So there's no way for me to look at this and see if any of this

 5     is taken out of context at all.  I cannot at all respond to any questions

 6     based on this book.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Were you not provided with any copy of Dutch book

 8     itself?

 9             MS. WEST:  We were provided with this --

10             JUDGE KWON:  This translation.

11             MS. WEST:  -- this English translation and that's it.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, whenever I need something

13     from the Prosecution, I have to -- I'm left to my own devices.  They are

14     in a much better position.

15             JUDGE KWON:  No, you should tender the Dutch original version as

16     well.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They received it.  They received

18     it.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MS. WEST:  Well, I think -- I think he must have the Dutch and

22     show him the Dutch.  What I'm saying is, though, I don't have a full

23     English in context so I can't -- I don't know what comes before and after

24     any of this.  But if he has the Dutch, maybe the witness should see the

25     Dutch.

Page 22995

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, have you received the Dutch version?

 2             MS. WEST:  We've received the Dutch version.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But not the --

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MS. WEST:  Of these particular cites, of these particular English

 6     cites.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let us see how -- where we can go.

 8             Let us continue.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your

 9     questions.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Groenewegen, do you remember that it was a tragic event and a

12     send-off was organised for the casket of this Dutch soldier when he was

13     being sent home?

14        A.   That's correct, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Take a look at this please.  Did you know Lieutenant

16     Arthur Batalona --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let me pre-empt.  I don't follow the

18     exercise of putting this interview by third parties to the witness.  Why

19     don't you ask the question directly to the witness without having to

20     tender this?  You know the practice of not admitting third party's

21     interview or articles unless the author confirms the content of the

22     article.  This is totally a waste of time.  Why don't you just put your

23     question?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 22996

 1        Q.   My question is:  Please look at the words of Sergeant

 2     Arthur Batalona about the excursions of Muslim fighters and the slaughter

 3     of Serbs, which is consistent with your words as reported by that lady,

 4     Esther.  Look at the first paragraph, please.

 5             Does this conform with what you knew and what you told that lady,

 6     Esther?

 7        A.   Well, a certain similarity is perceptible, but once again all the

 8     facts that I told here, I was informed of them only after my deployment.

 9     So I think that facts are being confused here.

10        Q.   All right.  We'll come to that.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

12     It begins here at the bottom, the words of the Sergeant Alvin van Hecke,

13     and what he says concerns your observation post.  The first paragraph

14     says that by night, they went out to Serb territory, burnt and killed,

15     and then returned and hid behind your positions.

16             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, just -- I don't know if the witness has

17     the English or the Dutch in front of him.  Maybe we should inquire

18     whether he wants --

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think he's following his e-court but --

20             MS. WEST:  May we inquire if he would be more comfortable with

21     the Dutch.

22             JUDGE KWON:  But before that I -- did you understand my point,

23     Mr. Karadzic?  I said there's no point of putting these questions to the

24     witness.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The reason will become clear soon.

Page 22997

 1     Mr. Groenewegen was connected with Observation Post Mike where this was

 2     happening.  This man was from the same observation post.  Mr. Groenewegen

 3     told the same thing in his earlier statements but his later statements

 4     changed his version somewhat, and I want to question him about that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just put that question to the witness, having said

 6     that.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Groenewegen, did Muslim soldiers leave the enclave by night,

 9     go to the Serb territory, and then returned, and did they place their

10     trenches near your observation post and those trenches were naturally a

11     target for the Serb army?

12        A.   The only subject I can make any statement about, in fact, is that

13     trenches were indeed dug very close to our observation posts.  The rest

14     of that question is something I was told about by third parties much

15     later on.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement dated 29 September 1995,

17     65 ter 19529; and also in your testimony in the Blagojevic case on the

18     10th of July, 2003, 65 ter 03237, did you state that carrying out your

19     duties at OP Mike you saw the beginning of the Serb offensive and you saw

20     Serb positions and you also saw shells falling, shells fired as a

21     provocation by the Serb troops, at least that's how you experienced it.

22     Correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   However, would I be right in saying that in the Blagojevic case,

25     on page 1040, you understood the military reasoning behind it, and I'm

Page 22998

 1     going to paraphrase.

 2             [In English] "The shooting was to cut off a road to Potocari and

 3     keep the civilian population from -- the civilian population in the same

 4     place that they were."

 5             [Interpretation] So was your observation post hit or is it the

 6     case, as you stated in the Blagojevic case, that it was some kind of

 7     barrage fire to prevent movement?

 8        A.   It would appear to me to be the latter because no actual targets

 9     of ours were hit.  It would appear to have been purely a provocation.

10        Q.   But here you said in your evidence, you said that it was what is

11     known as barrage fire, fire that prevents others from moving about and is

12     not intended to kill them.  Right?

13        A.   The term "barrage fire," as reflected here in English is

14     something that is unfamiliar to me.  But the people did not want to move

15     to any other place.

16        Q.   However, on the next page you say that they had moved towards

17     Potocari, whereas you believed it would have been better for them to have

18     stayed and to fight.

19             [In English] "... it was better for them to fight than to head

20     towards Potocari on a voluntarily basis."

21             [Interpretation] Did you say that?

22        A.   I don't remember that.

23        Q.   Can you locate it on this page?

24        A.   I don't see my exact words here as you just presented to me,

25     indicating that in my view they should have stayed and engaged in the

Page 22999

 1     fighting.

 2        Q.   The first paragraph, Mr. Groenewegen.  It's contained in the

 3     question and you confirmed in your answer, saying "that is correct."

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If you like to put the question, why don't you show

 5     him the exact passage in his statement and ask him what he meant, as

 6     Mr. Stojanovic did in this case.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [In English] "At one point you provided the

 8     following answer to the Prosecution.  You said you had talked to one of

 9     them, having in mind members of the BH army, and that they told you

10     allegedly that it was better for them to fight than to head towards

11     Potocari on a voluntarily basis.  Is that right?"

12             And you said:

13             "That is correct."

14             [Interpretation] So you did meet with the Muslim troops, you

15     spoke to one of them, and you deliberated whether it would have been

16     better for them to stay and fight.  It doesn't now matter who said what,

17     but what's discussed here was leaving for Potocari on a voluntarily

18     basis.

19        A.   I've seen it and I understand now, and this comes across to me as

20     their words that were presented to me.  But I can't form an opinion about

21     that, as to what would have been best for them to do.

22        Q.   You can look at the text up to line 15, the same issue is

23     discussed.  You had your opinion, they had theirs, and all of this

24     indicates that they decided of their own free will to go to Potocari.

25             MS. WEST:  There's no question there, Your Honour.  It's just a

Page 23000

 1     statement.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked whether it's correct. [In

 3     English] But it's not in transcript.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case, could you please

 5     answer the question all at once about this matter.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, could you please ask the question

 7     all at once about this matter.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I'll make it simpler.  Is it true, as written here, that this

10     Muslim soldier spoke to you about what would have been better for them,

11     to stay and fight or to go to Potocari on a voluntarily basis?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We'll go back to that when I find your opinion about

14     this voluntarily nature of their movement.  To the best of your

15     knowledge, who ordered the civilians to go to Potocari and who took the

16     decision for the column of soldiers and civilians to break out towards

17     Tuzla?

18        A.   I can't state anything about that.

19        Q.   I should like to clarify what my learned friend Mrs. West also

20     asked you.  They did not come of their own free will.  Then we have to

21     make it more precise.  Did they come of their own decision or somebody

22     made the decision for them?

23        A.   I can't judge that.

24        Q.   But this Defence has to understand.  Did they come reluctantly or

25     did they come against their will?  If they came reluctantly, was it the

Page 23001

 1     situation that forced their hand or was it somebody that forced them?

 2        A.   Then that would be more likely to be the situation than that

 3     somebody actually ordered them.  But once again, that's speculation on my

 4     part.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the Muslim authorities sent their

 6     people to all villages to pass on the order that all the civilians must

 7     go to Potocari, whereas the fighting men should make a breakthrough?

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9        Q.   I'm not getting any interpretation.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Groenewegen, could you repeat your answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  I know nothing about

12     that having happened.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you.  I have to get this out in the clear because the

15     Prosecution is using the wording you used in the Blagojevic case as well.

16     65 ter 0323 [as interpreted].  This is the same page, 1041.  Please put

17     it back on.

18             You say that you think they did not come to Potocari of their own

19     free will.  Do you mean to say that they were not happy to come or that

20     they did not come of their own volition, that it was decided for them by

21     someone else?  Is that what you meant ?

22        A.   The only reason why I don't think they were there of their own

23     volition is because those people were simply afraid.

24        Q.   And look at what you said --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Karadzic, the witness said at

Page 23002

 1     line 25 he thought they had no other option, and it was confirmed when

 2     Ms. West asked the same question at the end of para 42 of his amalgamated

 3     statement.  I think we've dealt with this question.  Why don't you move

 4     on to your next topic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You deal with that in paragraph 19 of your statement as well.  Is

 8     it correct that civilians, Muslim civilians, left their homes

 9     considerably before the Serb troops entered those same homes?

10        A.   I couldn't state anything about that.  I don't have any more time

11     perception about that period in the sense of how long or how short those

12     events succeeded one another.

13        Q.   But can you confirm that when you dealt with part of the

14     civilians, when you took them to Potocari, that the Serbs did not have

15     any physical contact with the civilians who had set out to Potocari?

16             MS. WEST:  Just to be clear, he just said "when you took them to

17     Potocari."  I think that's a misstatement.  Maybe he could just ask that

18     question again.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Groenewegen, did you drive some people, some civilians, women

21     and children, that is, to Potocari using UN vehicles?

22        A.   No.  At that time I didn't even have a driver's licence.  And in

23     any case, I did not escort people to Potocari; they all came to us.

24        Q.   I'm sorry.  When I say "you," I speak about the Dutch Battalion.

25     I'm not referring to you personally.  As a matter of fact, did the

Page 23003

 1     Dutch Battalion get instructions to help civilians reach Potocari?

 2        A.   I don't know whether they were instructed to do so.  From my

 3     position, I saw that at least one truck rode toward Potocari filled with

 4     refugees.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at page 1020 in 65 ter 03237 and then

 6     page 1020.  This is what you say:

 7             "Most of these individuals arrived on foot, whereas some were

 8     brought in on trucks, vehicles of the UN."

 9             In paragraph 19 you say that they were all making a valiant

10     effort to get to Potocari.

11        A.   I don't remember the words "valiant."

12        Q.   Paragraph 19 of your amalgamated statement.  However, let us deal

13     first with this page 1020.  It says:

14             [In English] "Were they primarily on foot or were they being

15     transported some other way?"

16             From the beginning, from line 1.  Your answer:

17             "The majority did.  Others had been brought to the bases by

18     UN vehicles."

19             [Interpretation] Now this is what I'm asking you:  Before they

20     were taken onto UN vehicles and before they set out on foot, did they

21     have any physical contact with the Army of Republika Srpska?  Was it the

22     Army of Republika Srpska that had expelled them out of their homes?

23             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I think this witness has made this

24     clear several times, that he was not in a position to answer this

25     question.  He's on the receiving end in Potocari.  So he has no ability

Page 23004

 1     to answer the questions about the people leaving Potocari only upon their

 2     arriving and he said this several times.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I disagree, Excellency.  I asked

 4     whether the United Nations transported these people, and in the testimony

 5     here it says "yes."  And not in a single vehicle but the word is used in

 6     the plural, it says "vehicles."

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Since the witness gave evidence to the effect that

 8     they didn't leave on their own free will and that they were really

 9     fearful, albeit repetitive, I think that can be asked.  Just a second.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  But it is truly repetitive.

12             Can you answer the question, Mr. Groenewegen?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any case, I know that they

14     arrived on foot at the compound from Potocari and I was there to escort

15     the people through the gate rather than along the side paths.  That was

16     my task on site.  And I saw a few but I actually remember one truck

17     filled with people arriving at the Potocari compound.  And I can't say

18     anything else about their movements than I said earlier.  The people were

19     frightened even about receiving security from DutchBat.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have five minutes to conclude.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I kindly ask

22     that I be given the rest of the session, if for no other reason for the

23     waste of time involving interpretation into three languages, Dutch,

24     English, Serbian.  We are losing a lot of time that way.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, in order for you to concentrate on

Page 23005

 1     relevant and important issues, the Chamber is not minded to extend your

 2     cross-examination, the time for cross-examination of this witness,

 3     further.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, it is very

 5     important for me what it means "of their own free will."  Did they come

 6     happily?  Gladly?  Or not?  But whose decision was it?  Because the

 7     accusation is that the Serbs forcefully expelled --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber believes that it has

 9     allowed you sufficient time to cover all the issues, but it's up to you

10     how you would spend the time allotted.  You have five minutes,

11     Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Excellencies,

13     the indictment and many judgements say that civilians from Srebrenica

14     were expelled by the Serbs.  The key moment is --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have an opportunity to present

16     your submission, but it's time for you to ask the questions to this

17     witness which the witness is able to answer.  Please proceed.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I beg your pardon.  Mr. Groenewegen, is it correct that those who

22     had allegedly killed that man afterwards hid in the bushes?

23        A.   Yes, they ran away after that, and I'm not sure where they went.

24        Q.   Very well.

25             Is it correct that you saw men in the white house; and if so, how

Page 23006

 1     many?  You don't know that it was called the white house but you know

 2     what I'm referring to.  How many were there approximately, 200?  300?

 3        A.   It could never have been that many all at once, given what I

 4     remember about the house.  But I do know that men were placed in there

 5     multiple times and subsequently transported away.

 6        Q.   In the Popovic case you said something that was changed later in

 7     your new statement.  You said there on 1D04738 on page 282, or rather,

 8     2980, that -- you said that all refugees wanted to go towards the buses.

 9     Later on you said that some people were forced by Serb soldiers to board

10     buses.  Now I want us to take a look at that.  Does this confusion not

11     come from the fact that there were refugees who wanted to board the buses

12     and there were men, on the other hand, that Serbs treated as prisoners of

13     war?  Did they force those men to board the buses?

14        A.   No.  From what I remember, the last people, or rather, the women

15     and children were also basically forced to board the buses.

16        Q.   But how do we reconcile that with what you said in the Popovic

17     case?  Also, on the film we see that all of those who wanted to leave,

18     leave in peace and there is no force involved.

19        A.   I can't give you an answer to that now.

20        Q.   On one occasion you said that Serbs took away your rifle and on

21     another occasion you said that nothing was taken away from you.  What is

22     correct?  I don't have time to give you an actual reference.  Did you

23     once say that you had your things taken away from you and did you say on

24     another occasion that nothing was taken away from you?

25        A.   All I remember is that I stated that my weapon was taken from me.

Page 23007

 1     I don't remember stating that nothing was taken from me.

 2        Q.   Until we find the reference, is it correct that you stated in the

 3     Popovic case -- no, Tolimir, you stated that your task was to enable

 4     those who wanted to board the buses to do so and that there were two

 5     groups:  One group that wanted to do that and others who did not?

 6        A.   That's correct, yes.

 7        Q.   In the amalgamated statement, paragraph 8, you say:

 8             [In English] "All the refugees, everybody wanted to go toward the

 9     buses."

10             [Interpretation] Do you make a distinction between refugees and

11     those who were in the house and that Serbs were treating differently, not

12     to say as prisoners of war?

13        A.   That's perfectly possible.

14        Q.   Did you state that you did not find out that any one of the

15     Muslims wanted to remain in Srebrenica?  You said that in the Tolimir

16     case in April last year -- the year before last, that is.  1D04737.  On

17     page 1198.  Is that right?

18        A.   Just a moment, please.

19        Q.   It's somewhere around line 2.

20        A.   From my perception, the majority of people did want to board the

21     buses right away, and later on the people who hesitated were mildly

22     forced to board the buses.

23        Q.   Please take a look at lines 16 through 18.

24             [In English] "My next question:  Did you ever hear from anybody,

25     through an interpreter or personally, that some of the Muslims who had

Page 23008

 1     gathered in Potocari requested to stay in Srebrenica?"

 2             [Interpretation] Your answer:

 3             [In English] "Not as far as I know."

 4             [Interpretation] Is that right?

 5        A.   Not as far as I know in fact.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  1D4739, page 3, you say that you had your rifle taken

 7     away from you, and in 65 ter 19P29 [as interpreted], on page 8753 you say

 8     that nothing was ever taken away from you.  What is correct out of all of

 9     this and why does it differ?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let us upload the second thing.  What

11     is the 65 ter number?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 19P29 [as interpreted], and then

13     page 8753.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Check the number again.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It should be correct.  Statement in

16     September 1995.  Perhaps it's the wrong page.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Probably 19529.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's what I said, yes.  Now this

19     page, 7853 [as interpreted], what we've already said.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Page 4.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it's page 4 in the document.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The second-last paragraph.

23             THE ACCUSED: [In English] "The BSA took nothing from me."

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.  I see the source of

25     confusion.  The version where I stated that my rifle was taken is the

Page 23009

 1     correct version and it is very strange to me that this appears here.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, is it correct that you did not see any

 4     mosque being hit or any other such facility?

 5        A.   No, I don't recall anything about that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Now it's time to put your last question,

 7     Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, for the

 9     transcript and with all due respect, even if one were not to take into

10     account the loss of time involving interpretation into three languages,

11     this is not enough time to cross-examine the witness.  There are so many

12     contradictions and there are so many opportunities for the Defence to

13     have a completely different picture painted that I have to say that I am

14     completely dissatisfied.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I'm of a different opinion, Mr. Karadzic.  Your last

16     question.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask for one second,

18     please, so that I can make a choice.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is it correct that you said that you did not see refugees handing

21     over their property, their belongings?

22        A.   I did not see anything like that, no.

23        Q.   Thank you.  That is also in this statement on page 00438752.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If that's it, if I cannot deal with

25     anything else, that will be my last question, however, with me saying

Page 23010

 1     that I do not consider this witness to have been cross-examined.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That's not acceptable, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             Ms. West, do you have any re-examination?

 4             MS. WEST:  No.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             Mr. Groenewegen, on behalf of the Chamber --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  I beg your pardon,

 8     Your Excellency.  May I tender at least these pages from this statement

 9     from 1995, the ones that I have displayed and where I quoted from.

10             JUDGE KWON:  That statement is only of five pages.  Why don't we

11     admit it in its entirety then?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's fine.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no objection from the Prosecution?

14             19529 will be admitted as Defence exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2004, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             Thank you again, Mr. Groenewegen, for your coming to the Tribunal

18     again to give it.  Now you are free to go.

19             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we proceed with the next witness?  Please call

23     your next witness, Ms. West.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I call Roger Patelski,

25     please.

Page 23011

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             While the next witness is being brought in, I would like to deal

 3     with this matter.

 4             The Chamber is seized of the accused's motion to reclassify

 5     response to invitation to United Kingdom filed on 10th of January, 2012.

 6     The Chamber finds that there's nothing in the response from the UK that

 7     requires it to remain confidential and thus grants the accused's motion.

 8     The Chamber hereby directs the Registry to reclassify as public the

 9     United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland's response to the

10     Trial Chamber's order of 17 November inviting submissions filed on

11     5 January 2012.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.  Could you kindly take the

14     solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I state that I will tell the truth,

16     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  Please make yourself

18     comfortable.

19             Yes, Ms. West.

20             MS. WEST:  May we have 65 ter 90302, please.

21                           WITNESS:  ROGER PATELSKI

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Ms. West:

24        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

25        A.   Hello.

Page 23012

 1        Q.   What is your name?

 2        A.   My name is Roger Felix Theodora Bernardus Patelski.

 3        Q.   What is your current rank?

 4        A.   I'm presently a sergeant first class.

 5        Q.   What is your current post in the military?

 6        A.   I'm presently stationed at the 13th Battalion of the infantry

 7     battalion mobile in Assen.

 8        Q.   Sir, an amalgamated statement was prepared containing relevant

 9     portions of your OTP statement from 2000 and information you provided in

10     October of 2011.  This statement on the screen now, is this the one you

11     reviewed and signed on November 30th, 2011?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   And just for the record, you also have a hard copy right next to

14     you of the same statement.  Can you confirm that the statement accurately

15     reflects an amalgamation of your previous 2000 statement and the

16     information that you recently provided?

17        A.   That's also entirely correct, yes.

18        Q.   Sir, if you were asked today about the same matters contained in

19     the statement, would you provide the same information to the

20     Trial Chamber?

21        A.   I would still provide the same information, yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, we tender the statement.  There are no

24     associated exhibits; however, on the table of additional exhibits we

25     asked to use there are two maps in which I requested 65 ter number.

Page 23013

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Are there any objections?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The statement will be admitted as Exhibit P -- shall

 4     we give the number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4173, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And your request for leave is granted.

 7             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, if I may summarise the statement.

 8             Mr. Patelski is currently in the Royal Netherlands Army.  In 1995

 9     he was a private stationed at the Potocari compound.  In June of 1995 he

10     was posted to Observation Post P, known as OP Papa, situated about

11     1 kilometre north of the main entrance of the compound.  Patelski's

12     duties included patrolling the area to monitor suspicious activity,

13     speaking with people in and around the compound, and escorting UNHCR

14     convoys bringing in supplies.  By that time the Serbs were blocking many

15     of the trucks from entering the compound, and without food, water, or

16     gas, conditions had severely deteriorated in Srebrenica for both the

17     civilian population and DutchBat soldiers, who were forced to patrol on

18     foot as they did not have sufficient fuel for their vehicles.

19             The Serbian military post called Yellow Bridge was located

20     half a kilometre further north.  Patelski spoke with Jovo, the commander

21     of that post.  During Patelski's prior posting to OP Papa which was

22     between February and March 1995, Jovo had informed Patelski that the

23     Serbs were going to attack the enclave.  About two weeks before the fall

24     of the enclave, Patelski noticed that Serb troops were building up their

25     presence around the compound.  Before the offensive attack in July, he

Page 23014

 1     saw Serb military movements in the hills above Potocari.  He also saw the

 2     Serbs digging trenches and setting up rocket-launchers and mortars around

 3     the enclave.  They used the latter to shoot at Muslim houses while Serb

 4     snipers shot at civilians, including older men, women and children.  The

 5     injured were then brought to the DutchBat compound for treatment.

 6             On July 11th, Patelski heard on the radio that Serbian troops had

 7     taken the Srebrenica enclave from the south.  The next day, the 12th, the

 8     Serbian troops around OP Papa began advancing in the direction of

 9     Potocari.  Jovo called OP Papa and informed the DutchBat soldiers that if

10     they did not resist, they would not be harmed.  First to arrive were

11     hundreds of Serb soldiers in what appeared to be a well-trained unit.

12     They were dressed in camouflage uniforms and heavily armed.  A group of

13     15 to 20 of them came to OP Papa and seized DutchBat equipment, including

14     helmet, flak jackets, arms, and an APC.  They also disconnected the OP's

15     contact with the command.  The Dutch soldiers, including Patelski,

16     remained detained at OP Papa until 2100 hours that night.

17             Three more groups of Serb soldiers arrived.  Those in blue

18     camouflage uniform identified themselves as being from a special police

19     unit, while those in black overalls were part of an anti-terrorism unit.

20     Patelski also saw another group of soldiers which he described as Rambo

21     types, dressed in a mixture of civilian and military gear and well armed

22     with grenades, AK-47s, and knives.  From the roof of OP Papa, Patelski

23     saw that those dressed in black uniforms had dogs and for several hours

24     they cleared houses.  First they threw in grenades, then they entered

25     with the dogs and began shooting.  This gave Patelski the impression that

Page 23015

 1     the Muslims who had been living in those houses were killed.  The houses

 2     were then set on fire.

 3             General Mladic arrived at the OP during the afternoon and

 4     requested a meeting with Colonel Karremans.  Karremans came to the OP and

 5     spoke to Mladic.  After being detained at the OP all day, the DutchBat

 6     soldiers were transported to the Potocari compound that night.  Once

 7     there, Patelski saw that the compound was flooded with refugees, at least

 8     a few thousand of them, mostly women and children.  He found them to be

 9     terrified and in poor health.

10             The next morning he saw about 15 buses parked outside the

11     compound facing Bratunac.  The evacuation of refugees began after 8.00 in

12     the morning.  Patelski helped with the evacuation of refugees by bringing

13     refugees in groups to the edge of the compound.  There the Serb soldiers

14     dressed in camouflage uniforms and armed with AK-47 rifles separated the

15     men from the women and children.  Patelski took the rest of the refugees

16     to the buses.  Serb soldiers with guns stood near the buses, which

17     terrified the people more.  People looked at Patelski with death in their

18     eyes, like they thought they would not survive the day.

19             The men were taken to a grass field across the compound.  Some

20     Serb soldiers were beating them, even though the men were very weak and

21     unarmed.  At one point Patelski heard a shot in the field.  He later saw

22     the body of a dead man there.  Later that day, more buses arrived and the

23     men were taken in the direction of Bratunac.  Five to six trips were

24     required to take away at least a hundred men who'd been separated from

25     the rest.  Nearly all of the refugees were evacuated from the compound

Page 23016

 1     that day except some wounded people.  A day after the evacuation,

 2     belongings abandoned by the refugees littered the Potocari compound.

 3             Mr. President, that concludes my summary and I only have a few

 4     questions.

 5        Q.   Sir, were you stationed -- you were stationed at OP Papa;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   I'd like to show you 65 ter 23517.  This is a map.  It will come

 9     on the screen but you also have a hard copy in front of you on the table.

10             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

11        Q.   And this map shows a road running south of Bratunac to

12     Srebrenica, and we've pinpointed the Potocari compound and Yellow Bridge

13     on the map.  First of all, does this map look accurate to you?  Are you

14     familiar with this area?

15        A.   Yes, this map looks familiar to me, yes.

16        Q.   And the pinpoints of the UN Dutch compound and the Yellow Bridge,

17     do those look to be in the right places?

18        A.   Yes, that's entirely correct, yes.

19        Q.   About how far north of Potocari was OP Papa located in terms of

20     kilometres?

21        A.   That was approximately 1 kilometre.

22        Q.   I want to show you 65 ter 23518.  It will come up on the screen.

23     You also have a hard copy.

24             This is essentially the exact same map but it's satellite

25     footage.  Now, you mentioned in your statement at paragraph 10 that

Page 23017

 1     before the attack in July you saw Serb military movement in the hills

 2     above Potocari.  Are the elevations reflected on this map consistent with

 3     the hills that you saw around Potocari and OP Papa?

 4        A.   Yes, they're the same hills, yes.

 5             MS. WEST:  And I wonder, Mr. President, if the witness can

 6     actually write on the screen.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MS. WEST:  He may need some assistance for that.

 9        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to indicate on this map with a pen

10     where you saw Serb military movement in the hills.  And you can just

11     write directly on the screen.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we ask him to mark the OP Papa first.

13             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Sergeant, if you could map -- mark OP Papa first.

15        A.   Yes.  Looking at this aerial photograph that was taken from a

16     great distance, it's a bit difficult for me to indicate --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we zoom in further.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Once again.  Just could you wait until being

20     assisted by our usher.

21             Do you think you can now mark it, Sergeant?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked me whether I could

23     indicate where the OP was at that time?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must have been approximately

Page 23018

 1     there.  It was near Yellow Bridge.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Yes.

 4             MS. WEST:

 5        Q.   Sir, can you also mark on this map the area where you saw Serb

 6     military movement in the hills?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.  I'll indicate them generally.  Somewhere in that

 8     area.

 9             MS. WEST:  And for the record, the smaller circle on the map is

10     where the witness indicated OP Papa.  The larger area is where he

11     indicated Serb military movement.

12        Q.   Can you initial this and put the date, please, which is the 13th.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please consider the

14     possibility of giving the precise dates when the Serb troops were there

15     and how that relates to the borders of the protected area.

16             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I believe that could be done on

17     cross-examination.

18             JUDGE KWON:  No, but I was -- I was about to ask the question.

19     The -- not time-frame, but you mean the area where you saw the Serb

20     military exercise is -- was inside enclave?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at first I saw military

22     movement by the Bosnian Serb army, and they were easily perceptible from

23     our observation post.  To the north-west of our observation post there

24     were various hills and we were able to see in the top of the hills that

25     they were building up reinforcements and fighting strength in the sense

Page 23019

 1     of mortars and other items.  And further down between OP Papa and

 2     Yellow Bridge we identified two tanks.  That was before the incursion

 3     into the enclave.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, could you take up --

 5             MS. WEST:  Yes, thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  -- the matter.

 7             MS. WEST:

 8        Q.   Mr. Patelski, I'll refer you to paragraph 10 in your amalgamated

 9     statement and ask you questions about that, where you noted that before

10     the Serb offensive attack in July you saw Serb military movement in the

11     hills above Potocari.  So this larger circle that you've put on the

12     screen is -- is that in reference to the military movement that you saw

13     before the attack in July?

14        A.   Before the attack in July.  Can I add something or draw a line to

15     clarify?

16        Q.   Please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             Just a second.  Shall we change the colour into blue now with the

19     assistance of our usher.  Could you wait a minute.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reinforcement of troops that I

23     perceived days before the enclave fell, and my co-workers did too, that

24     was in the hills.  I'm going to draw that on now.  It was in this border

25     area around -- that was for the Bosnian Serb army.  It was -- they had

Page 23020

 1     good vision there and were easily able to look into the enclave from

 2     there.  They had a good view.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             Could you initial -- put your initial and date of today at the

 5     end of the photo.  13th of January.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  This will be next Prosecution exhibit.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4174, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time, Ms. West.

10             MS. WEST:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask something?  Perhaps it

13     could be of assistance in saving time if the Defence does not have to

14     take up time on matters that are not strictly necessary.  May I?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Am I right in saying that in some

17     other cases, especially in Popovic et al., the Prosecution abandoned

18     qualifying the military operation in Srebrenica as illegitimate.  If that

19     is so, then I would not have to spend time proving that it was a

20     legitimate act.  But if I'm not correct in this assumption, I should know

21     that now.  A lot of time indeed could be saved if the military operation

22     in Srebrenica is not considered as an unlawful act.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I would like you to rephrase that submission in

24     consultation with Robinson and after having a word have a discussion with

25     the Prosecution, you can come up again to us.

Page 23021

 1             Mr. Patelski, your examination-in-chief was done by way of

 2     written statement and you'll be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his

 3     cross-examination next week.  Probably you are aware of this, but you are

 4     not supposed to discuss about your testimony with anybody else.  Do you

 5     understand that, sir?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's entirely clear to me,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume next Monday at 9.00.

 9             Please have a nice weekend, sir.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.05 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of

14                           January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.