Page 24169
1 Tuesday, 7 February 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Before we hear the evidence
6 of the next witness, there are a couple of matters I'd like to deal with.
7 First, the Chamber will issue an oral ruling in relation to the
8 testimony of Momir Nikolic, who is expected to testify next week.
9 The Chamber notes that in the February list of witnesses filed by
10 the Prosecution on 20th January, Momir Nikolic is listed as a partial
11 Rule 92 ter witness for whom four hours of examination-in-chief were
12 envisaged. In the Rule 92 ter notification filed on 31st of January, the
13 Prosecution reduced this estimated time to two hours but seeks to tender
14 480 pages of transcript of the witness's testimony in the Tolimir case,
15 which lasted six days.
16 Because of his position as chief of intelligence and security in
17 the Bratunac Brigade during the conflict, Nikolic's evidence is central
18 to the Srebrenica-related allegations charged in the indictment.
19 Therefore, given the nature of Nikolic's testimony, as well as the amount
20 of Rule 92 ter material sought to be tendered through him, the Chamber
21 considers that it is in the interests of justice that he be called viva
22 voce. The Chamber will decide on the time to allocate to the accused for
23 cross-examination once the Prosecution has determined how much time it
24 requires for its examination-in-chief.
25 Turning now to the March and April order of witnesses. The
Page 24170
1 Chamber first notes that Richard Butler is still indicated as a partial
2 Rule 92 ter witness despite the Chamber's order of 8th of December, 2011,
3 that he be called viva voce. The Chamber therefore orders the
4 Prosecution to file a corrected version of the March and April list.
5 Still in relation to the March and April list of witnesses, the
6 Chamber wishes to ask the Prosecution a few clarifying questions in
7 relation to Mr. Dusan Janc and Mr. Dean Manning.
8 First, could the Prosecution clarify whether it wishes to call
9 Janc and Manning pursuant to Rule 92 ter? If so, what prior evidence of
10 statement will be tendered for each of these two witnesses?
11 In that respect, the Chamber also notes that the May 2009 list of
12 witnesses listed them as viva voce witnesses, and for Manning stated that
13 his "reports" will be tendered pursuant to Rule 94 bis. However, the
14 Rule 94 bis dead-line have long passed and no Rule 94 bis filing has been
15 presented.
16 Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: I don't think it's -- excuse me, Mr. President. I
18 don't think there's any need for any clarification of the inquiry the
19 Court is making. We'll get back to you forthwith with the response to
20 those matters to see if they represent any misunderstanding reflected in
21 the documents on the part of the Prosecution or simply a clerical error,
22 but we'll clarify for the Court forthwith the Prosecution's intentions
23 with respect to both witnesses.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
25 Unless there are any other matters, we'll bring in the next
Page 24171
1 witness.
2 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
3 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Harvey.
5 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President. I don't know if this
6 is working. No. Yes. I would just like, if I may, to introduce
7 Ms. Sandra Gudaityte who has joined the stand-by team. Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Good morning to you.
9 Ms. West, your next witness is Mr. Todorovic.
10 MS. WEST: Good morning, Mr. President. Yes, it is.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, sir. Do you hear me well?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE KWON: Would you take the solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: DRAGAN TODOROVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Please be seated and make
21 yourself comfortable.
22 Yes, Ms. West.
23 Examination by Ms. West:
24 Q. Good morning, sir.
25 A. Good morning.
Page 24172
1 Q. What is your name?
2 A. My name is Dragan Todorovic.
3 Q. Where were you born?
4 A. In Tuzla.
5 Q. Sir, can you confirm that you had an opportunity to listen to
6 your testimony in the Popovic case and it accurately reflects your
7 evidence to that Court?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If you were asked about the same issues today in this court,
10 would you provide the same information?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I would tender the Popovic testimony to
13 65 ter 22406, and there are two associated exhibits.
14 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit the transcript first.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4350, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: Are they -- are there any objections with respect to
17 two associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?
18 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. They will be both admitted.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, 65 ter 03827 will be Exhibit
21 P4351 and 65 ter 03826 will be Exhibit P4352 [Realtime transcript read in
22 error "P4353"].
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 MS. WEST: Mr. President, if I may read a brief summary.
25 The witness joined the VRS in 1992 and served in other units
Page 24173
1 before joining the 10th Sabotage Unit in late 1994. The 10th Sabotage
2 was under the command of the Main Staff. The witness was responsible for
3 the logistic support of the unit.
4 The 10th Sabotage Unit had two platoons. Todorovic was in the
5 Vlasenica platoon which was based in Dragasevac; and the other bass in
6 Bijeljina. Milorad Pelemis was the commander in the 10th Sabotage, and
7 Pelemis' superiors at the Main Staff were Salapura, Tolimir, and
8 Milanovic and Mladic. Todorovic testified that Petar Salapura was the
9 Main Staff officer who communicated most with the unit.
10 On July 10th, 1995, a written order came from the Main Staff
11 ordering the 10th Sabotage to deploy. The witness packed up equipment
12 and the unit left the base spending the night in Zeleni Jadar. The
13 10th Sabotage entered Srebrenica on July 11th with orders to capture the
14 town but encountered no resistance. Todorovic saw General Mladic in
15 Srebrenica. The General congratulated the troops, ordered Todorovic and
16 his unit to hold the police station until documents were recovered and
17 ordered the remaining troops on to Potocari. Mladic also told the
18 10th Sabotage that they had 48 hours to search the town and take what
19 they wanted.
20 The witness returned to the base at Dragasevac the morning of
21 12th July and the rest of the men from his unit returned in the evening.
22 Commander Pelemis was in charge of the 10th Sabotage Unit
23 throughout the operation in Srebrenica but upon Pelemis's return to the
24 base, Pelemis was injured in a vehicle accident that killed another
25 soldier.
Page 24174
1 Todorovic was tasked with taking the dead soldier killed in the
2 accident back to his family home and attending the funeral. He left
3 Dragasevac on July 13th with several members of his unit. They were gone
4 for two days, returning between 10.00 and 11.00 in the morning July 15th.
5 When Todorovic returned, Pelemis was gone and Todorovic was told that
6 Pelemis was at the hospital in another town.
7 Soon after this, Todorovic saw Pecanac arrive at the base along
8 with a second car. He knew Pecanac was the aide-de-camp to
9 General Mladic and was certain of his identity because Pecanac had, in
10 the past, turned up at the base every now and then, and on this occasion,
11 July 15th, Pecanac entered the base again.
12 Todorovic also recognised the second car, a VW Golf which
13 belonged to Popovic, the security officer for the Drina Corps. Pecanac
14 came on to the base and Todorovic heard Pecanac arguing and shouting with
15 another soldier, Zoran Obrenovic, but the witness did not hear the
16 details. Obrenovic later told the witness that Pecanac ordered him,
17 Obrenovic, to gather troops for a job and that Obrenovic had refused
18 because there was no order coming from Commander Pelemis. Pecanac then
19 shouted at another soldier to round up men for a meeting with
20 Colonel Beara in Zvornik, and that soldier complied.
21 Todorovic then packed equipment for the departing unit. He
22 testified that in addition to normal weapons and combat gear, he issued
23 more additional equipment and ammunition. Seven to eight men from the
24 10th Sabotage Unit then left with Pecanac in a black VW minivan followed
25 by the Popovic car.
Page 24175
1 Todorovic then went back to Srebrenica with other members of his
2 unit to gather cattle, returned to the base that night and the black
3 minivan was there when he returned, but Todorovic supposed the men were
4 in town at a cafe.
5 On July 16th, Todorovic was in Srebrenica until late in the
6 evening and again did not see the men who had left on the 15th. He had
7 no information about what the men of the 10th Sabotage Unit did on the
8 15th or the 16th of July.
9 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I have just a few questions for you. Can you tell
10 the Trial Chamber when the 10th Sabotage Unit was created?
11 A. In 1994, the 1st of November or the 1st of October.
12 Q. And to whom was the unit subordinated?
13 A. The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
14 Q. Who was your commander?
15 A. Mr. Milorad Pelemis was commander of the Sabotage Detachment.
16 Q. And from whom did he receive orders?
17 A. From a higher level, from the Main Staff, from officers.
18 Q. I'm now going to show you a video-clip. In total it's about
19 10 minutes long.
20 MS. WEST: For the record, this is P4021, the Srebrenica trial
21 video. In the book there are stills that are associated with this video.
22 The video's subtitled as well.
23 The stills start on page 17. There is a transcript as well, but
24 as I said, it's subtitled.
25 For the record, we're starting at minute 23 and 45 seconds, and
Page 24176
1 we will end at minute 33 and 20 seconds.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MS. WEST: [Microphone not activated] Mr. President, there is
4 sound to this video --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MS. WEST: Mr. President, there is sound, and I believe it's
7 being fixed now.
8 JUDGE KWON: Would you like it to be played again or we can carry
9 on?
10 MS. WEST: We can carry on.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MS. WEST: We've just stopped at minute 24 and 41 seconds.
14 Q. Mr. Todorovic, on the still in front of you, do you recognise
15 that black uniform we see on the man on the right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what can you tell us about the patch on the arm?
18 A. It's our patch. It's the patch of my unit, the
19 10th Sabotage Detachment.
20 MS. WEST: Thank you. We'll continue.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 25 minutes and 10 seconds.
23 Q. This person we see in the middle who has the black overalls on,
24 do you recognise this person?
25 A. That's a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.
Page 24177
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
2 be asked to speak a bit louder. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Todorovic, you are being asked by the
4 interpreters to speak to the microphone or speak up a bit -- turn up your
5 volume a bit. Thank you.
6 MS. WEST: Thank you. We'll continue.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 25:37.
10 Q. We see a gentleman on the right-hand side. Do you recognise that
11 gentleman?
12 A. General Zivanovic.
13 MS. WEST: Thank you. And we'll continue.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 25:53.
16 Q. Now, we see some soldiers in the middle who have a patch on their
17 arm. Do you recognise that patch?
18 A. There's a wolf on that patch, and they are members of the
19 Drina Corps, the Drina Wolves.
20 MS. WEST: We'll continue.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 26 minutes and 30 seconds.
23 Q. This man who is standing next to the person you identified as
24 Zivanovic, who is he?
25 A. His brother.
Page 24178
1 MS. WEST: We'll continue.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 29 minutes and 40 seconds.
4 Q. And we saw with the subtitles they were talking about ammunition,
5 and now it says -- they said, "Who is the ammunition for?" "It's for
6 Legenda." Can you tell us who that is?
7 A. Well, I think he was an officer of the Drina Corps.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. He had something to do with those Wolves.
10 MS. WEST: Thank you. We'll continue.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MS. WEST: We've stopped at 32 minutes and 37 seconds.
13 Q. The person who is on the screen now in black, who is that?
14 A. That's my commander, the commander of my unit, of the
15 10th Sabotage Detachment, Milorad Pelemis.
16 MS. WEST: We'll continue.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MS. WEST: We're at 32 minutes and 44 seconds.
19 Q. This man in black as well, was he in your unit?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on the screen someone has just said, "Miso, move slowly."
22 Was that Milorad Pelemis's nickname?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. WEST: We'll continue.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 24179
1 MS. WEST: We're at 33 minutes and 3 seconds.
2 Q. Do you recognise this building?
3 A. That's the municipal building in Srebrenica.
4 Q. What were your orders regarding this building?
5 A. To secure it until all the necessary material that was there was
6 removed.
7 Q. Did you advance any farther than this building in the town?
8 A. No. Up to the police station and the municipal building. We
9 didn't go any further.
10 MS. WEST: Thank you. We'll continue.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MS. WEST: We've concluded at 33 minutes and 20 seconds.
13 Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. West.
15 Mr. Todorovic -- just a second.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, one correction to the exhibit
18 announced 03826 will be Exhibit P4352 and not P4353. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Your testimony in
20 the Popovic et al. case was admitted here in its entirety in lieu of your
21 examination-in-chief, and you'll be now cross-examined by Mr. Karadzic.
22 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. Good
24 morning to you and everyone else.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
Page 24180
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Todorovic.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. First and foremost, I'd like to thank you for kindly meeting my
4 associates. Therefore, I hope this examination will run smoothly and
5 within the time allocated to us.
6 A. Thank you.
7 Q. I need to remind both of us to pause between question and answer,
8 as it seems I present quite a difficulty for the interpreters because we
9 frequently exchange many words in our language. Could we please both
10 bear that in mind.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. You lived in Kladanj; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it true that in Kladanj there were about 20 per cent of Serbs?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is it correct that the entire 20 per cent fled at the beginning
17 of the war or on the eve of the war? They all fled from Kladanj.
18 A. Some fled before, some on the very eve of the war, and whoever
19 stayed behind, well, some of them didn't survive, others ended up in a
20 camp.
21 Q. So how many Serbs were there in Kladanj who were free in May or
22 June, who were not dead or imprisoned?
23 A. Only those who joined the Patriotic League.
24 Q. Thank you. You fled on time. In what month?
25 A. In May.
Page 24181
1 Q. Thank you. We need to break between questions and answers.
2 After that, was your house in Kladanj set on fire?
3 A. All houses around Kladanj and the villages surrounding Kladanj
4 were attacked and torched.
5 Q. Before the war were you aware of any Muslim preparations for war
6 in terms of organising the Green Berets and the Patriotic League? Did
7 you have such information? And I do not mean rumours but reliable
8 information.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did the Serb side have any paramilitary formations in Kladanj?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. Upon your departure you reported to the
13 Sekovici Brigade. Was that the way you responded to the JNA call-up and
14 was it still at the time when the JNA was a legitimate armed force in
15 Bosnia?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Vlasenica, Sekovici, and the area had a single military post
18 number from the pre-war JNA period. This was continued in the first few
19 months of the war; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You were in the Sekovici Brigade for a while. In the meanwhile,
22 did you join any other forces or units?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us which ones?
25 A. The assault platoon which was formed in Vlasenica.
Page 24182
1 Q. It was all within the JNA structure, and later on when the VRS
2 was formed, it fell within their structure; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You never joined any paramilitary formation on the Serb side in
5 Bosnia?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. Did the JNA and later the VRS conduct any offensive
8 operations in Kladanj and the Serb villages there, or did they provoke an
9 attack on the Serb villages in question?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were there many civilians casualties in those Serb villages?
12 A. Yes. Out of the total percentage of the population there, there
13 were many dead.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you specify a number of such villages for the
15 Chamber, the attacked Serb villages in the municipality of Kladanj?
16 A. Yes, Vucinici.
17 Q. Vucinici. If you look at the screen, you'll be able to observe
18 when the translation of what I said was completed and then you can go on.
19 A. Konjevici, Kovacici, Mala and Velika Kula, Vranovici, Mladovo,
20 Pajici, Obrcevac, and all the other villages in that area. I believe
21 this is enough.
22 Q. Thank you. Are there any residents in those Serb villages? Did
23 anyone return?
24 A. A very small percentage did.
25 Q. You also went through Janja frequently, which was a majority
Page 24183
1 Muslim settlement in the municipality of Bijeljina; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. To be even more accurate, one couldn't get to Bijeljina or Brcko
4 without going through Janja; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was Janja ever attacked by the Serb army?
7 A. No.
8 Q. In your municipality of Kladanj, was there a single Serb village
9 that was spared, what was not attacked?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. You -- you and the Serbs from the area fled without
12 being able to take anything with you. You only took what was basically
13 on you; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you join the 10th Sabotage Detachment? It was in the
16 fall of 1992, was it not?
17 A. No, 1994.
18 Q. I apologise. 1994. Until 1994, you were still with the
19 Assault Platoon of the Sekovici or Birac Brigade.
20 A. Yes, the Special Police of the Sekovici Brigade. I was there for
21 a while as well.
22 Q. Was the platoon disbanded and another brigade formed?
23 A. The Sekovici Platoon was disbanded, and I joined the
24 Vlasenica Intervention Platoon.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you explain for the Chamber the situation in the
Page 24184
1 area given the fact that fighting broke out there somewhat later than in,
2 say, Sarajevo where it all began on the 6th of April? Do you know how
3 the atmosphere there developed in terms of tensions when you arrived
4 there?
5 A. Well, there was tension, but nobody mistreated anyone else. No
6 one forced anyone to join the Serb army. There were Muslims there,
7 though, in Vlasenica, quite a percentage of them.
8 Q. Am I correct in saying that the Serb youngsters were under an
9 obligation to join the army, whereas the Muslim were not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Sekovici and Vlasenica, and Vlasenica is better off economically
12 than Sekovici, but did both settlements receive quite a large number of
13 refugees right at the outset?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Am I correct in saying that all those refugees had fled without
16 being able to take anything with them in haste and that the new
17 municipality of their arrival was supposed to accommodate them in terms
18 of finding places for them to sleep and providing food for those
19 families?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the refugees like you joined the army, whereas the population
22 that was not fit for military service was accommodated in different
23 locations and depended on the municipality for food; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. The influx of refugees who told the stories of their
Page 24185
1 lives, did all of that lead to a rise in tensions in Sekovici, and in
2 particular Vlasenica, all the places they were staying at?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you the following: You were in
5 the Territorial Defence -- or, rather, a reservist of the JNA. Did you
6 do your military service before that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which service?
9 A. The infantry.
10 Q. All right. After doing your military service, did you become
11 part of the reserve force? Did you get a wartime assignment, as was
12 usually the case with reservists?
13 A. Yes. It is on that basis that we were called up for military
14 exercises and drills.
15 Q. Did you attend such exercises and drills before the war?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On that occasion did you take your uniform home and some weapons
18 and perhaps some noncombat gear, all the things that a soldier has?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can we therefore agree that the entire reserve force of the JNA,
21 that is to say, all of those who did their military service, could have
22 some military equipment at home, either uniforms only or also gas masks
23 and small shovels and the like, and some even had rifles and other light
24 weapons; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 24186
1 Q. Thank you. When you joined these units, did you, and if so in
2 which way and how, hear or feel that these units would work on destroying
3 Muslims, killing them or expelling them?
4 A. As -- these units were only used for defence in case there was an
5 attack by Muslim units.
6 Q. Thank you. There were lines of separation or confrontation
7 between Sekovici and Kladanj, weren't they? And on the other side,
8 weren't there a lot more Serb villages than there were Muslim villages on
9 this side?
10 A. The line was established. Tuzla, Kladanj, Sarajevo, was the line
11 that followed the road between these towns.
12 Q. Did this line coincide with the ethnic pattern, that is to say
13 where there were Serb majorities and Muslim majorities?
14 A. Eighty per cent of Serb villages remained on their side.
15 Q. The Serb army at that point in time and all the way up until the
16 end of the war, did it ever launch any kind of offences against Kladanj
17 with the intention of liberating Kladanj, or were these only defence
18 operations as they tried to link up Kladanj and Drina?
19 A. If we look at the line where the war started, this was the
20 defence line. That is how the war ended. That was the situation at the
21 end of the war too.
22 Q. Without any major shifts in that area. Is that what you're
23 trying to say?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to move on to this other part that
Page 24187
1 we are particularly interested in. Let us first look at the nature of
2 your unit. Is it correct that your unit was mostly used behind enemy
3 lines?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Did they also have their own sabotage terrorist
6 groups, as we call them, in our area, behind the lines again?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now I'd like to ask you the following: We call those groups
9 sabotage terrorist groups. Do you agree that out of these groups of
10 theirs -- that as far as these groups of theirs are concerned, their
11 victims were mainly civilians on our side and -- on our side and drivers
12 from the bauxite mine and so on and so forth. Our unit, the
13 10th Sabotage Detachment, did it have permission or orders to kill
14 civilians behind enemy lines?
15 A. Not civilians. Just to carry out sabotage and to create
16 confusion on their side and in case of dire necessity to defend itself.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know that between the protected areas, the
18 safe havens, when they were established, and Kladanj civilians did pass?
19 Civilians went to Central Bosnia, and sabotage groups went there all the
20 time, sabotage groups of the Muslim army, and it was necessary to provide
21 security on that road every time when people had to take it?
22 A. Yes. That's where they passed.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that for quite a long time we tolerated
24 the existence of their units behind our lines, in our rear, far away from
25 the lines, in Kladanj, and for a long time they held under their control
Page 24188
1 Kamenica and other Zvornik villages via Cerska, that is in Vlasenica, and
2 then they also held Konjevic Polje, and they linked up Srebrenica and
3 Kamenica, that entire area?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that at one point in time they
6 attacked vehicles that were transporting bauxite to Zvornik and that they
7 killed the drivers of these vehicles and they seized these trucks? Later
8 on they called this the operation against the Chetniks, but these were
9 actually workers.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. At the time when they had this main road under their
12 control, and this entire area, too, we had to go via Sekovici, Crni Vrh
13 and Caparde in order to reach Zvornik; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it correct that there were ambushes on that road, too, and
16 that they would kill, say, all the passengers on a bus and a lot of small
17 passenger cars and that that road was very unsafe too?
18 A. Yes. That happened at Crni Vrh, because that was the closest
19 road via Memici that led to their own territory. That's how they went
20 back to their own territory.
21 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you the following: Your unit,
22 would it also be attached at moments -- actually, did it have an
23 anti-terrorist component as well? Was your unit used against these
24 groups of theirs or only in their rear?
25 A. Yes, yes. It was used depending on how the situation developed
Page 24189
1 on the ground.
2 Q. Thank you. Then all of a sudden it would receive an assignment,
3 and you as a logistics person would provide food and ammunition for such
4 an operation; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Weapons and leftover ammunition were handed back after an
7 operation. Was the ammunition counted, and was everything registered,
8 the amount of ammunition used and so on and so forth?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the commander, depending on the
11 task he received from the Main Staff, would decide what kind of weapons
12 and ammunition would be issues to the unit, and would he, for example,
13 say that zoljas should be taken or heavy machine-guns? Was he the one
14 who decided on a case-by-case basis?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Between such actions, operations, weapons were kept
17 in storage and members could not go into town armed; right? Unless it
18 was for personal protection and safety.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that this unit had a mixed ethnic
21 composition, that it consisted of Muslims, Croats, even Slovenes? I
22 don't know whether there were any Hungarians there, but I know that there
23 were Hungarians in other units. So was it an ethnically mixed unit?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it correct that that's the way it was until the very end?
Page 24190
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. You spoke about that when you testified in Popovic on
3 page 13989. I think that that's the right page reference.
4 Unfortunately, no, I turned this into words, so the page -- actually, I
5 have page 12 out of the 77 pages. Well, anyway, that will be taken care
6 of.
7 Was there a particular culture in that unit, a particular
8 atmosphere? Was there an atmosphere of ethnic intolerance, chauvinism?
9 Was there anything in that unit that would be considered illegal and
10 established as such?
11 A. They were professional -- professionals, just like we were. They
12 were protected. They were a part in the Bijeljina Detachment.
13 Q. Do you agree that they would not have stayed on in that unit had
14 this unit had a culture of enmity and animosity vis-a-vis other
15 ethnicities?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. To the best of your knowledge, what was the situation
18 in the protected areas in terms of food supply and food production by the
19 peasants themselves, then as far as the passage of convoys was concerned
20 and going out into Serb villages and stealing Serbian cattle?
21 MS. WEST: Objection.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. In a word, were they hungry?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. West.
25 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. This was -- this witness's
Page 24191
1 Popovic testimony and the testimony today has nothing to do with the food
2 supply or the convoys. It's beyond the scope.
3 JUDGE KWON: Well, the accused is able to put the question about
4 his case if the witness is able to answer, is he not, Ms. West?
5 MS. WEST: It is, Your Honour. It's just the way that question
6 was formulated I do not understand it that he was putting his case to
7 him.
8 JUDGE KWON: On a separate note, Ms. West, I just found out there
9 were some parts that were dealt with private session in the Popovic case.
10 MS. WEST: Your Honour, if I can have a few minutes on that, we
11 will check that out.
12 JUDGE KWON: First, I know it's page 13999, and about three
13 pages. I'm not sure whether there are further parts that were dealt with
14 in -- dealt with in private session. Could you check it out.
15 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Could you --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll explain, Excellency, why I'm
17 putting this question.
18 JUDGE KWON: Please carry on.
19 Mr. Todorovic, do you remember the question? But I would like
20 the accused to reformulate his question.
21 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
24 Q. Is it correct that in the enclaves there was a life going on,
25 that they had a functioning agriculture throughout, that they had
Page 24192
1 convoys, and in addition to that, they were looting our villages,
2 stealing our cattle? I'm asking that, because at one point of time you
3 were given the task to gather this cattle, and did this cattle actually
4 have to do with their incursions into Serb territory?
5 A. All the convoys that were sent to the enclaves, the protected
6 areas, passed by our check-points unhindered. They were treated with
7 maximum fairness.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. As for their incursions in our villages, they took whatever they
10 could find, which means at Christmas not a single pig was left for
11 roasting, and yet they don't eat pork. As for any other cattle, they
12 would pick up anything they found.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that military activity outside Zepa and
14 Srebrenica was constant despite the fact that these were protected areas,
15 and are you aware of such incursions into our villages?
16 A. There was Kravica, and the attack came from the protected area.
17 It was led by Naser Oric. Everyone knows how those people were killed
18 and mutilated. There are documents which speak to that.
19 Q. Thank you. You were accommodated in Vlasenica for the most part;
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you know of their excursions, so to say, in Milici as well.
23 A. Yes. The mine there.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpret's correction: The village is called
25 Rudnik and up to Derventa.
Page 24193
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you. I'll share with you a few dates from their documents.
3 I won't go to the period before May, because you were still not in the
4 area; correct.
5 A. Yes. But we were there with the assault detachment as well when
6 they came in for the first time, when they killed the drivers and workers
7 at the mine.
8 Q. Thank you. On the 2nd of June, it seems there was a sabotage
9 action carried out on the road against the -- against the soldiers. Was
10 the village in question Drum near Vlasenica?
11 A. Yes. Drum was inhabited by Muslims.
12 Q. So their attack came from there and then they opened fire at the
13 command?
14 A. They opened fire on the Panorama Hotel where there were JNA
15 officers as well Serb personnel.
16 Q. Thank you. Let us go to 1995. I have a plan here of the
17 Drina Corps for June 1995. It seems to be for June. There is no mention
18 whatsoever of any operation against Srebrenica. Did you know that
19 Srebrenica was to be captured, and do you agree that the first and
20 foremost task was to sever the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa because
21 they linked them up unlawfully?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. WEST: Mr. President, if we can just have a cite for a plan.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, and put one question at a time, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise to the
Page 24194
1 Prosecution. I will have the document registered or tendered through one
2 of the next witnesses, perhaps over the break.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So do you agree that at the time the first and main task was to
5 return the Muslims within the boundaries of defined protected areas and
6 to free the route between Milici and Skelani; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you agree that because of the fact that they linked up their
9 enclaves between Milici and Skelani, instead of travelling 50 kilometres
10 from one point to the next one had to go the roundabout way, which took
11 about 150 kilometres?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were sent to Srebrenica. Is it true that it was customary
14 that your commander would tell you your task immediately prior to its
15 execution?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You entered Srebrenica on the 11th of July, sometime in the
18 afternoon. When did you enter Srebrenica exactly?
19 A. Well, around noon or early in the afternoon. We split at
20 Zeleni Jadar into two combat groups.
21 Q. When did you arrive in Zeleni Jadar?
22 A. On the 10th in the evening.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you know that before the 10th, starting with the
24 5th, there was fighting to the south of Srebrenica in the area of
25 Zeleni Jadar, that is to say, between Zepa and Srebrenica?
Page 24195
1 A. Yes. They were trying to defend the road, the route they had for
2 the supply of weapons into Zepa and the other way. They smuggled weapons
3 and food as well.
4 Q. Thank you. Once you arrived there, basically none of that
5 resistance was left; correct?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you have any information as to what was going on with their
8 killed soldiers? Were they buried by our army before your arrival? The
9 casualties who were killed the week before, starting with the 5th, did
10 they have casualties?
11 A. Not in our area of responsibility. There were no casualties
12 there.
13 Q. Yes, when you arrived, but how about before that when they were
14 still trying to defend the area?
15 A. Well, possibly. I'm certain there were casualties on both sides.
16 It's a forested area, but I didn't go in that part of the field.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I note the time. If it is convenient,
18 we'll take a break now for 20 minutes.
19 We will resume at 10.40.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. West.
23 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. We have uploaded a public
24 redacted version of the Popovic testimony. That number is 65 ter 22406A.
25 I thank you for your correction. I did notice one other page. That
Page 24196
1 mistake is mine.
2 JUDGE KWON: So shall we give the separate number for the public
3 redacted version.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, P4353.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Is it correct that you as a person in charge of logistics were
9 not privy to operational documents and that the documents you worked with
10 had to do with the needs of the unit per task?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you never heard or were present
13 when Pelemis received any records from an officer of the Main Staff?
14 Perhaps you saw him talking to someone, but you didn't hear any specific
15 orders he may have received; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said so in 2004 as well, but perhaps there is no need to call
18 up those documents. Let us go back to your entry in Srebrenica. You
19 entered on the 11th. Is it true that in the town of Srebrenica there
20 were neither their army nor their population?
21 A. There were none along the axis we came in.
22 Q. In other words, they left Srebrenica, and your entry in
23 Srebrenica was not a violent one. There was no shooting or people being
24 killed; correct? I mean the entry down into Srebrenica itself.
25 A. Yes.
Page 24197
1 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you something about a footage we saw. At
2 2510, it seems we saw one of your soldiers with a headband. Was it
3 customary that soldiers wear unconventional items like that, or did other
4 soldiers have those headbands as well?
5 Would you like me to replay it?
6 A. No. I guess people wore it for the sake of their image, at least
7 as far as our soldiers were concerned. As for the Muslim soldiers, they
8 had headbands which said "tekbir Allahu akbar." All of their soldiers
9 wore such headbands as well as their mercenaries.
10 Q. Tekbir. It seems we have a problem with the Turkish term.
11 A. Allahu akbar. It was their combat cry, whenever they attacked
12 our fortifications or villages. Who did they fight for? For Allah.
13 Q. If such a headband were in a grave for a while could the text
14 disappear and the band remain, actually?
15 A. Well, it all depended on the quality of the fabric.
16 MS. WEST: Objection.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. West.
18 MS. WEST: This is not a witness for that answer, and also it
19 calls for speculation. He would have no basis to answer a question like
20 that.
21 JUDGE KWON: Absolutely, Ms. West.
22 Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. At 25:53 we see that in addition to the shoulder patch, a soldier
Page 24198
1 also had a red ribbon. Was it customary to wear such ribbons to prevent
2 any friendly fire?
3 A. Yes. This is how we distinguished our soldiers among themselves
4 from the enemy so that they wouldn't start shooting at each other.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you change the colour of such ribbons daily so
6 that the enemy couldn't imitate it?
7 A. It depended on the situation where the soldiers were, and we were
8 able to change it every day so that the enemy would be unable to know
9 what we wore on what day.
10 Q. At 30 minutes, we hear Mladic mention the Dahijas. Since those
11 participating in the proceedings need not necessarily know what it is,
12 can you please confirm or deny this. Do you agree that the Dahijas
13 rebelled against the Sultan as well as against the Serb local authorities
14 during the Turkish occupation and that they were the evil kind who even
15 disobeyed the Sultan's laws?
16 A. Yes. The Dahijas were renegades. They committed crimes and did
17 not report to either the Sultan or the Agas or Begs who were other
18 Turkish aristocracy.
19 Q. Do you remember that Milenko Stojkovic killed them in the end and
20 that Karadjordje received the Sultan's approval for that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me ask you this: In these crimes and outrages, was
23 Naser Oric a modern-day Dahija, as it were?
24 A. Well, chance had it that I had occasion to also talk with people
25 who were members of his unit, so he was not very friendly to his own
Page 24199
1 people and arrogant with his own people, let alone others.
2 Q. Now, did you understand that they were actually revenging on the
3 population or was it on the Dahijas, or, rather, the Oric men? Well, it
4 is not accidental that he mentioned the Dahijas when referring to Oric's
5 territory.
6 A. Yes. Those people had wreaked a lot of evil to the people and
7 the population around Srebrenica, Milici, Vlasenica. There were
8 thousands of victims that were in fact at the hands of Naser's
9 commanding.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, when you entered Srebrenica, there was no
11 shelling or shooting in any real sense of the word; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. However, the video that we were shown, we can see that there was
14 some sporadic fire and that Mladic asked where the fire was coming from.
15 Was that shooting actually coming from the Muslim side? Well, maybe you
16 don't know. If you don't know, just say so.
17 A. Well, I do know. Many of those units actually went into the
18 woods, and for another month or so they still terrorised the population
19 in the area. They would break into Serbian villages and they would
20 destroy everything that was in their way. They were trying to break
21 through to Tuzla.
22 Q. [No interpretation]
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We didn't get any interpretation.
25 With respect to the previous question, I'm not sure whether we
Page 24200
1 heard your answer to the question whether the sporadic fire we saw or
2 heard in the video were coming from the Muslim side. Mr. Todorovic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: But you confirmed that the -- they went into the
5 woods to break into Serbian villages. So you are saying to us that they
6 were firing from the woods against the Serbs who were entering the
7 Srebrenica town. Is that what you're saying, Mr. Todorovic?
8 THE ACCUSED: I don't think we got translation.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mm-hmm. I will repeat the question.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was renegade groups.
11 They were actually broken-up groups, stragglers, and they were on the
12 periphery of Srebrenica, the outskirts of Srebrenica.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned Milici. Is it correct that they
17 engaged our units on their way, on their attempt to break through, and
18 where our units were deployed, they attacked Serb villages and killed
19 civilians?
20 A. Yes. Below Milici, there is -- on the way out of Milici there is
21 a house there. Fortunately, there -- well, there was a whole family
22 there that they killed. Fortunately, they did not -- their son was not
23 there, so they didn't end the line.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, let me just ask you whether you saw any signs of
25 the fighting, the destruction? Did you see any destruction in Srebrenica
Page 24201
1 itself? In other words, did Srebrenica suffer a lot of devastation in
2 this operation?
3 A. As for our movement through Srebrenica and my unit, the
4 Sabotage Detachment and other units as well, not a single house was
5 torched, although we did search every house in order to try to determine
6 whether any of their soldiers actually changed into civilian clothing.
7 We wanted to make sure as we were passing through that none of them would
8 be left behind so they could open fire behind our backs.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just one more clarifying question, Mr. Todorovic.
10 In your previous answer as regards the Muslim forces, you said
11 many of those units went into the woods and for a month they still
12 terrorised the population in the area.
13 Do you remember having said that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE KWON: What population were you referring to?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, whenever they tried to break
17 through in order to link up with Tuzla via Crni Vrh, Baljkovica, the road
18 going across or over Cerska, Kamenica, Memici. Whenever they came to
19 Serb villages, they killed in order to loot their clothes or bandages or
20 civilian clothes.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So in addition to the group that pulled out by the 16th of July,
25 there were some straggling groups in that area; correct?
Page 24202
1 A. Well, the group that was led out by Tursunovic, they went via
2 Baljkovica, and they killed members of the Drina Brigade there.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, did you have any information as to how fierce
4 that fighting was, that it was so fierce that, for instance, the
5 Zvornik Brigade lost more men during this breakout attempt of theirs than
6 through the entire war period?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. At one point, and I'll tell you exactly where, you
9 said that General Mladic said, and that's on page 14005 of this
10 transcript that was admitted into evidence, that Mladic said that you
11 should withdraw and that you had 48 hours at your disposal to search
12 everything and take whatever you wanted.
13 Is it correct that that did not refer to private property but,
14 rather, to the equipment that was the property of the 28th Division?
15 A. Precisely so. Only stuff that we found such as weapons,
16 uniforms, insignia. In other words, things that we might want as
17 trophies or souvenirs.
18 Q. Thank you. When was it then that you left Srebrenica after you
19 entered it?
20 A. I left Srebrenica on the 12th.
21 Q. Was that in the early hours?
22 A. Well, around 10.00, 11.00 a.m.
23 Q. While you were there, there was no killing, no bombing, nothing
24 extraordinary, nothing critical; correct?
25 A. No. Only on the 11th we were bombed by aircraft.
Page 24203
1 Q. Thank you. You were in charge of collecting cattle, and that's
2 the cattle that was roaming in the areas because they were deserted.
3 A. Well, yes. This was the looted private property. The cattle was
4 looted from villagers, because there were a lot of people there who did
5 nothing other than go around looting.
6 Q. Thank you. When did Major Pecanac arrive? The transcript does
7 not reflect that this was cattle that was looted from Serb villages.
8 That's what you said, correct, that they were lotted from our villages?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Major Pecanac, who may have been a captain at the
11 time, arrived then and he came to your base; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You saw the vehicle that was usually driven by Vujadin Popovic on
14 that occasion; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. However, you could not identify him with certainty as the driver.
17 You knew that there was a -- there was someone in the vehicle, but you
18 couldn't identify whether it was him or not?
19 A. Well, yes, that's correct. It was his vehicle, but whether he
20 was driving the car or not, I really don't know. It is possible, but
21 it's also possible that it wasn't.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, Pecanac -- or, rather, who was it who stood in
23 for your commander while he was absent?
24 A. Well, whoever had the rank at the time. A combat group leader or
25 someone like that.
Page 24204
1 Q. Thank you. And he addressed whom?
2 A. He addressed Obrenovic, and I later found out why, but at the
3 time when they were having this conversation, I was not there. I did not
4 dare walk up to them.
5 Q. Oh, I see. So you just heard their quarrel, but you couldn't
6 really make out what it was that they were quarreling about; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He then spoke to Gojkovic, because Obrenovic turned him down. He
9 said that he wouldn't do it because the commander wasn't there; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then he turned to Gojkovic and asked for several soldiers
12 because they had to go on a mission; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Franc Kos, who was the lieutenant, did -- was he at the base at
15 the time?
16 A. Yes, and he took up a -- upon himself this role.
17 Q. Was Franc Kos a Slovene?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was Drazen Erdemovic there?
20 A. Erdemovic was with me in Trebinje, but he volunteered. He was
21 not forced to go. And he was a sergeant. That's -- that was his rank.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, do you agree that this was on the 15th?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that at the request of the civilian
25 authorities from Srebrenica, Skelani, Bratunac, on the 14th I declared a
Page 24205
1 state of war, although the fighting around Srebrenica had already ended.
2 And the reason that was done was because of all these straggling groups
3 that were still in the woods.
4 A. Yes. Those groups killed four men from Milici in Kupusina, I
5 believe. That's in the direction of Zepa.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that they were -- that had they
7 organised themselves well, they could have taken any town they wanted,
8 these 13- to 15.000 men who headed for Tuzla? Is it correct that the
9 threat from them was real?
10 A. Well, they knew the defences of our lines, and they knew how they
11 were not too well defended, so they could take any area there. With
12 15.000 men, they could go in any direction.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness mentioned some
14 places that I didn't catch.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you --
17 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters noted they didn't catch some of the
18 names of the places Mr. Todorovic said. Could you repeat the names of
19 the places?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this group -- or, rather,
21 this formation of 15.000 men, they were able to capture Milici,
22 Vlasenica, and the entire road through towards Kladanj, but also towards
23 Zvornik and Tuzla.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you this. As always, not
Page 24206
1 knowing the details of the operation, you issued certain equipment to
2 them; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could we now please see the list of the issued equipment, and I
5 believe this is in one of the associate exhibits.
6 Let me ask you this: Is it correct that you issued a
7 machine-gun, M-84 machine-gun, ammunition for this machine-gun, as well
8 as ammunition for automatic rifles?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. There was also a zolja and a small mortar,
10 shells, water, blankets, sleeping bags and other stuff that they needed
11 for 48 hours, such as food, water, and so on.
12 Q. Is it correct that they were also issued rations and cans of
13 food, and is it correct that they were equipped for survival basically
14 outside of any human settlements?
15 A. Yes, that's absolutely so.
16 Q. So if they had -- if their mission was to execute some
17 individuals, would they need cans of food, blankets, water, and other
18 items that you would need if you were to spend some time in uninhabited
19 places, or if they had been assigned such a task, would they go to towns
20 and obtain their own necessities there? In other words, were they
21 equipped for some period of time that they would spend in an inhabited
22 area or uninhabited areas, in the field as it were?
23 A. Well, they were equipped to spend 48 hours or up to 48 hours
24 wherever they found themselves, whether they had to secure a road,
25 whether they had to escort someone or spend some time in the woods,
Page 24207
1 anything of that sort.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know which direction they went?
3 A. There are several directions there. The first one was when they
4 moved from the base to Sekovici. Then there is another branch leading to
5 Kladanj and then Trnovo --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down, notes the
7 interpreter. We cannot follow this.
8 JUDGE KWON: The interpreter could not follow. Could you repeat
9 from the start.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This unit, once it left the
11 compound, the base, that is, they took the road towards Sekovici.
12 However, part of the road leads to Kladanj, so they could have taken that
13 part. Then also they could have also gone to Trnovo, Pelemisi, Memici,
14 Osmaci, Crni Vrh, Baljkovica, Zvornik. So they could have gotten
15 anywhere moving in that direction.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. But they set out from Vlasenica to the left, westward
18 toward Sekovici. Now, let me ask you this: If they were supposed to
19 reach Zvornik as soon as possible would they have taken a different
20 route, towards Nova Kasaba?
21 A. Possibly.
22 Q. That's the main road, isn't it?
23 A. Yes, that's the main road.
24 Q. Whereas Crni Vrh, Caparde, et cetera, that road is a roundabout
25 road, but that was where the breakthrough of the Muslim units took place.
Page 24208
1 A. Yes. That is where Naser broke through.
2 Q. Thank you. Commander Pelemis, when entering Srebrenica, did he
3 issue some instructions or orders in relation to what lay in store for
4 you there and in terms of what you should do?
5 A. Before each and every operation, my commander would line up the
6 detachment and issue orders saying that we should take care of one
7 another, that we should take care of ourselves.
8 Q. Thank you. Did he tell you that their soldiers had changed into
9 civilian clothing, a large number of them who had now gone into the
10 woods, and that you should be careful so as not to be killed by one of
11 them?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear an answer.
13 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Todorovic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which answer? This last one you
15 mean?
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean when Pelemis is lining up
18 people, the entire detachment, before an operation, drawing the attention
19 of all soldiers to the fact that they should take care of themselves.
20 JUDGE KWON: Did he tell you about the soldiers who changed into
21 civilian clothing?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah. That is something that he
23 particularly drew our attention to, because he's an experienced officer,
24 and he spent a lot of time at the front line, and he said that that kind
25 of things happens in 90 per cent of all situations, when people go into
Page 24209
1 towns, that they change their clothes.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. Did he say anything about treating civilians, Muslim
4 civilians, who were assumed to have been in Srebrenica still?
5 A. If we were to come across any civilians or military-aged
6 soldiers, we were to get close to them. There should be proper security,
7 and these people should be taken to Potocari.
8 Q. Was there an explicit ban on inflicting any kind of suffering on
9 civilians?
10 A. Every time when the unit would get lined up, that was referred
11 to. When civilians did not put up any resistance, no one could touch
12 them. It was only if soldiers took action against us then we should
13 respond in kind.
14 Q. Thank you. While you were in Srebrenica, you saw many civilians
15 in Potocari. Did you go to Potocari?
16 A. No. I saw that in the media. We only came to the police station
17 and the municipality. That's where we provided security, and that was
18 the end of any kind of combat activity of my unit.
19 Q. Thank you. In the proofing note that the OTP sent this morning,
20 it says that you did not see any victims except for one body that wore
21 NATO camouflage uniform and that you thought that this may have been a
22 Serb, and later on this turned out to be a Muslim; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Four or five bodies that did appear on the film. Did you not see
25 any of that.
Page 24210
1 A. I saw that, but that was on the 12th when our unit was not
2 involved in combat.
3 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in addition to Erdemovic who was a
4 Croat there was also a Mladen who was also a Croat in your unit?
5 A. Yes. Mladjo was his nickname.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that this Dreza and his family had also
7 fled from Sarajevo?
8 A. Yes. They were staying at Pale.
9 Q. Can it be said that most of the members of your unit had been
10 relocated or, rather, had fled from somewhere?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You also gave and statement to the FBI; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did that happen? How come they expressed interest?
15 MS. WEST: Objection.
16 JUDGE KWON: Witness is not in the position to answer that
17 question, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's in the transcript.
19 It's page 14019, line 8. I don't see why the objection.
20 JUDGE KWON: Let's upload at that page.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 8.
22 MS. WEST: Mr. President, the fact -- the fact of the interview
23 is there, but the question that was asked is not one in which this
24 witness can answer.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The part Ms. West objected to was the
Page 24211
1 question: "How come they expressed interest?" You didn't ask the
2 witness what he heard from them but the intention of the FBI. But I'm
3 fine with you putting the passage to the witness and ask a question.
4 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think that sometimes when
6 someone is interviewing a person they tell them the reason why they're
7 conducting that interview. So it seems like if the witness could
8 answer --
9 JUDGE KWON: Well, he can ask whether he heard anything, but he
10 can reformulate his question.
11 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Did you find this unusual, that a US investigation agency was
14 expressing interest in interviewing you?
15 A. At first glance, yes, but later on when Boskic fell in America --
16 he was a member of the sabotage detachment --
17 Q. I see. Thank you. So that had to do with that?
18 A. Well, yes, he fell there in America as a member of the
19 10th Sabotage Detachment. I really don't know what he said there. Maybe
20 they needed to compare something to his statement or whatever.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have great trouble
22 hearing Mr. Karadzic. Could he please speak into the microphone. Thank
23 you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your question, and please speak
25 into the microphone.
Page 24212
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. On page 14028, you said that Pecanac was refused soldiers, and
4 that was due to the fact that there was no commander -- or, rather, the
5 commander was not there to issue any orders, and we do not have any proof
6 of that being due to the nature of the mission involved; right?
7 A. Well, yes. The only proper order would have come from
8 Commander Pelemis to send -- to send the unit out into the field. One
9 always acted in accordance with his orders.
10 Q. Thank you. The quantities of material that you issued to this
11 group from the unit on the 15th, were they any different from the usual
12 kind of supplies that you issued?
13 A. That was always prepared when a combat group was going out into
14 the field. Because no one could foresee what would happen in the field,
15 what the unit or the combat group would do out in the field, whether they
16 would be spending the night out there. Did they have to be provided with
17 various equipment so that they could stay there safely.
18 Q. Thank you. On page 14041, from line 11 onwards, you said that
19 there were ABiH members everywhere, and you also refer to the
20 breakthroughs that you told us about a moment ago. All of that is on
21 that page, isn't it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The cattle that you had gathered previously had been stolen from
24 us. You said that on page 14043; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 24213
1 Q. When did you hear -- or, rather, did you hear of large numbers of
2 casualties all over the place during that breakthrough?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you hear, and if so how, of any unlawful killings,
5 liquidations?
6 A. That's when the arrests of my unit started.
7 Q. And that was when, a few years after that?
8 A. Yes. Yes. It was in the media, but, you know, the media will be
9 the media, newspapers and whatever.
10 Q. So you didn't trust the media. Do you remember that the media
11 also said that in Cerska in 1993, blood was flowing down the streets,
12 that there were massacres there? Is that the kind the propaganda that
13 led you to disregard the media?
14 A. Well, yes. When that happened in Cerska, they killed 28 or 29
15 people from Vlasenica.
16 MS. WEST: Objection, Your Honour, relevance.
17 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Ms. West?
18 MS. WEST: I object to these media questions for relevance
19 reasons.
20 JUDGE KWON: I think it's related to his attitude towards media
21 clippings. But in any event, he answered the question. We can move on.
22 But, Mr. Todorovic -- oh, yes. In answer to the question about
23 the possibility of any unlawful -- unlawful killings, you answered you
24 heard about it for the first time "when the arrest of my unit started."
25 What did you mean by the arrest of your unit?
Page 24214
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when there were these
2 proceedings against them. Then I heard that they had allegedly been
3 there. That's as far as the members of my unit are concerned.
4 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell us in more concrete terms what --
5 what happened, in particular your unit's arrest.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Erdemovic was arrested and
7 then he opened this case of Pilica something. I could not have assumed
8 that these soldiers had been there. Then Branjevo. Afterwards,
9 Marko Boskic was arrested in America. He also said that he was forced to
10 be in some army and forced to do something, and that was not correct.
11 Also, Erdemovic also said that he was forced to do something at gunpoint.
12 That's not true. Whoever would have made him doing anything but at
13 gunpoint would have had to answer for it later before the commander.
14 JUDGE KWON: So by arrest of your unit, you meant arrest of
15 Erdemovic and Boskic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Erdemovic, Boskic, Kos, Golijan,
17 Savanovic, Cvetkovic.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Now I understood.
19 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to remind you -- or, rather, to see
22 whether you disregarded the media because there were similar propaganda
23 every time when there was some kind of fighting and that Cerska had been
24 declared to have been the site of a massacre and none of that had ever
25 happened?
Page 24215
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recall that before the protected area of Srebrenica was
3 declared it had also been marked as a massacre location by the world
4 media and that our operations were then stopped and it was still back in
5 1993?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions of you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
9 Yes, Ms. West. Do you have any re-examination?
10 MS. WEST: Very brief.
11 Re-examination by Ms. West:
12 Q. Sir, today at about transcript page 31, you were talking about
13 hearing firing on the video. Mr. Karadzic asked you a couple of
14 questions and then Judge Kwon did as well. Do you remember those
15 questions?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And that firing that we heard on the video, when you were there,
18 in fact, you didn't see somebody firing from the woods, did you?
19 A. No, no. But it was coming from somewhere else. We were already
20 in the town itself, and chances are that it was the Muslim army firing
21 unless some Serbs were already celebrating the liberation of Srebrenica.
22 It is my assumption though that their groups had been broken up and that
23 they were in the outskirts of the town or in the forests already.
24 Q. Okay. And that's what I want to ask you about. Can you tell us
25 what happy fire is?
Page 24216
1 A. Well, some soldiers got drunk even at home, let alone out in the
2 field or at the front line.
3 Q. And let me ask you again. Can you -- can you tell me exactly
4 what happy fire is?
5 A. Rejoicing. You put a magazine, a cartridge of 30 bullets in your
6 rifle and fire them in the air sort of to make it -- to relieve yourself,
7 in a way, of tension.
8 Q. All right. And on this video we saw a number of soldiers from
9 the 10th Sabotage and we also saw some Drina Wolves soldiers as well, but
10 was it the case that there were also other soldiers in the area that we
11 could not see on the video?
12 A. Of course. It was an operation.
13 MS. WEST: Thank you. I have nothing else.
14 JUDGE KWON: Well, Mr. Todorovic, that concludes your evidence
15 today, and on my -- on behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal as a
16 whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague again to
17 give it. Now you are free to go.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West, do you need a break for -- for the
21 preparation of the next witness?
22 MS. WEST: I do not.
23 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
24 MS. WEST: But if we have -- may we go into private session?
25 JUDGE KWON: I heard that the next witness is to be heard in
Page 24217
1 closed session.
2 MS. WEST: Correct.
3 JUDGE KWON: So we better go into closed session right now.
4 MS. WEST: Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll go into closed session.
6 [Closed session]
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5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day
7 of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.
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