Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24357

 1                           Thursday, 9 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

 9     please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

13                           WITNESS:  SRBISLAV DAVIDOVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Would the Chamber move into private session briefly.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24358











11  Page 24358 redacted.  Private session.















Page 24359

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.  I understand

 8     that you are willing to testify in this case publicly, without any

 9     protective measures.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Ms. West.

12             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13                           Examination by Ms. West:

14        Q.   Sir, can you just tell us your full name for the record.

15        A.   Srbislav Davidovic.

16        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, where were you born?

17        A.   I was born in Bratunac, in Bosnia.

18        Q.   And where do you live now?

19        A.   I live in Bratunac.

20        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, can you confirm that you had an opportunity to

21     listen to your testimony in the Popovic case and that with the exception

22     of a few corrections that we'll discuss in a moment, it accurately

23     reflected your evidence to that Court?

24        A.   Yes.  I had the opportunity to listen to this, and I agree with

25     it.

Page 24360

 1        Q.   And there were two corrections you wanted to make on transcript

 2     page 9183 where you spoke about working at the people's university in

 3     Bratunac until the beginning of the war in 1992, but in the transcript it

 4     said 1991.  So that correction should be changing the year to 1992; is

 5     that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And the second correction is transcript page 9184.  In describing

 8     the duties of the Executive Board, you indicated it was logistics support

 9     to the Bratunac Brigade, not logistics brigade to the Bratunac Brigade as

10     was mistakenly reflected in the transcript; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And other than those inaccuracies, was the Popovic testimony

13     accurate and reflected your evidence?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And if you were asked about the same issues today here in court,

16     would you provide the same information?

17        A.   I'm sure I would provide the same information.  The essence would

18     be the same.  Now, whether the exact words would be the same, that's

19     another matter, but the essence would be the same.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, we move to admit Popovic testimony

22     which is 65 ter 22305A, and there's only one associated exhibit.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Which was a pseudonym sheet.

24             MS. WEST:  Correct.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Both will be admitted.

Page 24361

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4371 and D4372 respectively,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The another -- the other associate exhibit which was

 4     admitted yesterday, it was Ms. Sutherland, I take it, I asked whether

 5     similar ones were already admitted, and I was informed by the Registry

 6     that the similar document with respect to other municipalities or other

 7     localities were admitted but not in relation to Srebrenica.  I put it

 8     just for the record.  Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE KWON:  The -- the pseudonym sheet now that all the

11     protective measures have been rescinded shouldn't be put under seal.

12             MS. WEST:  I would say no.

13             JUDGE KWON:  And we have a redacted or public -- private session

14     amongst the transcript.  Those will be -- can be admitted in full, in --

15     publicly.  Could you double-check?

16             MS. WEST:  I will.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MS. WEST:

19        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I just have a few questions for you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to tender some summary of his

21     evidence?

22             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  For the public.

24             MS. WEST:  The witness was employed as director of the people's

25     university in Bratunac from 1984 till 1992.  From October 1994 to

Page 24362

 1     March 1997, the witness worked as president of the Bratunac municipality

 2     Executive Board and one of his tasks was to provide logistics support to

 3     the Bratunac Brigade during the war.

 4             On July 9th, 1995, the witness visited the -- the 3rd Battalion

 5     of the Bratunac Brigade located in Pribicevac with a purpose to see what

 6     was the logistical situation there.  And on the 11th of July, the witness

 7     returned to the 3rd Battalion where he had a brief unpleasant encounter

 8     with General Mladic who ordered the witness to go to the command post.

 9     On his way to the command post, the witness came across

10     Miroslav Deronjic, president of the Municipal Board of the SDS.

11             Later that day, the witness was notified from Deronjic to attend

12     a meeting at the Bratunac Brigade command at 8.00 a.m. on the following

13     morning.

14             On July 12th the following morning, the witness went to the

15     Bratunac Brigade command where General Mladic asked the witness to attend

16     the third Hotel Fontana meeting at 10.00 a.m. that morning, only two

17     hours later.

18             The witness went to the third Hotel Fontana meeting and at that

19     meeting the witness learned that the Muslim population decided to leave

20     the region, although General Mladic, the witness indicated, offered them

21     the possibility to stay in the region under the condition that the army

22     hand over their weapons and that those who bloodied their hands and

23     committed crimes against the Serbian people would be prosecuted.  During

24     the meeting, Mladic also told the Muslims that "they could either survive

25     or disappear."

Page 24363

 1             Later that day, the witness went to Potocari and helped

 2     distribute some of the supplies to the Muslim refugees, and during his

 3     visit to Potocari, the witness recognised several people whom he knew

 4     among the refugees, and he was able to help some of them.

 5             After the witness left Potocari and returned to Bratunac later

 6     that afternoon, he went to his office, and in the evening he saw at least

 7     six buses parked in the town and also learned of 20 to 25 buses parked

 8     elsewhere in the town.  Each of them was filled with Muslim men.  The

 9     witness knew that the buses spent the night in Bratunac, but before the

10     morning, they left Bratunac.

11             On the 14th of July, around 7.00 a.m., two men who were the

12     directors of the co-operative, the agricultural co-operative in Kravica

13     visited the witness in his office.  He told the witness about mass

14     killings of Muslims in the Kravica warehouse which occurred in the

15     afternoon of July 13th.  Later that morning, around 9.30, the witness was

16     called to the SDS office.  When he arrived there, he met an officer who

17     introduced himself as Beara.  Beara invited the witness to another office

18     to talk to two other officers whom the witness did not know, but one of

19     them he indicated was a colonel and the other was a lieutenant-colonel.

20     These two officers questioned the witness about obtaining construction

21     equipment, and the witness told them about -- about construction machine

22     called a ULT which was owned by the Brickworks factory and it was used

23     for loading.  He also told them about a smaller machine called a SKIP

24     which was owned by the utilities company and it was use for digging.

25     They asked the witness to provide the ULT machine and the witness

Page 24364

 1     contacted the director of the Brickworks factory.  Although the officers

 2     did not tell the witness the reason why they needed the equipment, he

 3     assumed, the witness assumed, that the equipment would be used for

 4     digging graves.

 5        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, in the Popovic case you had testified regarding a

 6     meeting on July 14th at 9.30 in the morning at the SDS office and you

 7     testified that at that meeting was an individual named Beara and two

 8     other officers and you didn't know their names.  Can you tell the

 9     Trial Chamber what those two officers asked from you.

10        A.   These two men asked me whether there were any construction

11     machines in Bratunac that can be used for digging and loading.  I knew

12     that our brickworks had a machine like that.  The machine was called the

13     ULT, and I said that there was one like that at the Brickworks factory,

14     and I said there was a smaller one called a skip that was at the public

15     utilities company.  They asked me whether we can make that machine

16     available.  I said that I'd discuss it with the director whether it was

17     in proper working order, and if it was, then we would make it available

18     to them.  However, I'm not sure that we could also make available a

19     person who could operate that machine.  I said that for the following

20     reason:  I know the machine operator who worked on that machine in 1992,

21     and that was a very unpleasant and painstaking job.  That is what I

22     thought of, and in a way I tried to protect this man, this operator.

23             One of these two officers cautioned me quite sternly that it was

24     not for me to say who could and who could not operate that machine, and I

25     said I'm sorry, this was just an observation of mine.  It is not binding

Page 24365

 1     in any way, and then I left the office with a promise that I would call

 2     the manager of that company and that they should establish further

 3     contact with him.  Now, whether they did take that machine or not I don't

 4     know, and I did not seek any further information.

 5             That would be it briefly, what happened at that meeting.

 6             On my way out, I said hello to Colonel Beara -- or I said

 7     good-bye to Colonel Beara in the next -- in the office next door, and I

 8     never saw these people again.

 9        Q.   Did you know why those two officers wanted the machine?

10        A.   They did not tell me why they wanted the machine.  However, since

11     those two managers from the agricultural co-operative told me at 7.00

12     that morning what had happened in Kravica on the previous day in the

13     afternoon, my conclusion was that most probably they needed the machine

14     for sanitisation and evacuation of persons that had been executed within

15     Kravica.

16             I mean, that was my very own conclusion.  That's not what they

17     said.

18        Q.   And do you know where those two men were from?

19        A.   I don't know.  I assume that they were from the Drina Corps.

20     Knowing that Colonel Beara was the security man at the Drina Corps, I had

21     assumed that this man had come with him, that he had brought them, and

22     that they were all from the Drina Corps.

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.

24             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I don't have any more questions.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 24366

 1             Mr. Davidovic, your testimony in the Popovic et al. case has been

 2     admitted in this case in lieu of your testimony in chief, and that you

 3     will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

 6     Excellencies.  Good morning to all.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

 9        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

10        Q.   I'm following the interpretation to see when it's over, and if

11     you have the transcript, then you can see when the interpretation is

12     over, and we should pause.  And I would like to thank you for the

13     video-conference -- the video meeting we held, and I hope that it will

14     make it possible for us to finish this cross-examination on time, and

15     thank you once again.

16        A.   What I have here is English.  No, I haven't got anything in

17     Serbian yet.

18        Q.   Yes, it will in English all along, but when the typing stops,

19     that means that you can speak then.

20        A.   I'll do my best.

21        Q.   Thank you.  So before the elections in 1990, you were in a party

22     of the political left, and you were not a member of the SDS; right?

23        A.   That's right.  The Social Democratic Party.

24        Q.   Thank you.  However, in 1994, isn't that right, you were elected

25     head of the local government, actually of the Executive Council, which is

Page 24367

 1     the municipal government, not because you were a member of the SDS,

 2     because you were not a member of the SDS at that point in time; isn't

 3     that right?

 4        A.   That is right.

 5        Q.   Rather, you were elected as a professional.

 6        A.   It wasn't party affiliation that was decisive.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you to tell us as briefly as

 8     possible how you viewed developments in Bratunac after the elections and

 9     at the very beginning of the war.  Do you agree that the

10     Party of Democratic Action and the Serb Democratic Party had won there

11     and that they shared power according to the model that prevailed

12     throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13        A.   Both of these parties had won.  The SDS won the votes of the Serb

14     people; the SDA won the votes of the Muslim people.  My party,

15     unfortunately, remained as a minority party, and quite a minority at

16     that.  So it was those two parties that shared power, the SDA and the

17     SDS.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did we agree that this was a good custom in our

19     political life even in the days of the Communists, that power should be

20     shared on the basis of some kind of ethnic structure?  For example, if

21     the president of the municipality is a Muslim, then the Serb would be

22     President of the Executive Board, and there would also be that kind of

23     sharing of high offices in the police, and this continued after 1990, as

24     well; right?

25        A.   That's right.  In the League of Communists before the war, ethnic

Page 24368

 1     affiliation was taken into account.  If a particular office was held by a

 2     Serb, by way of an analogy, a Muslim would hold another office.  Those

 3     were the posts that were filled that way.

 4             The same went for company managers, half/half.  Half were

 5     Muslims, half why Serbs, but this was taken into account, ethnic

 6     affiliation.  And that continued after the multi-party elections, after

 7     these two parties won the election.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Both Serbs and Muslims had the chance of voting for

 9     other parties too.  For example, Serbs were in some other political

10     parties as well, just as the Muslims were, whereas the Muslims had a

11     purely Muslim Bosniak organisation.  So that was not the only option,

12     right?

13        A.   No, it wasn't.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

15     microphones be switched off.  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, more or less, people voted

17     in accordance with their ethnic affiliation.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we say that for a considerable amount of time

20     Bratunac functioned well?  Well, I don't mean you, the opposition.  But

21     in terms of ethnic harmony, for a while everything seemed to be fine.

22        A.   Well, if we can put it that way, at first there was love between

23     these two parties, but later on when the slope became slippery, if I can

24     put it that way, there was no love left.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can we agree that tensions rose sometime in the

Page 24369

 1     summer of 1991 when Slovenia and Croatia declared independence?  And

 2     before that, as for that declaration of independence in the Assembly of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina there were further tensions.

 4        A.   That's right.  As tensions went up in Slovenia and Croatia, this

 5     was reflected in a major way in the security situation in

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bratunac included.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  The Muslim Bosniak organisation of Adil Zulfikarpasic

 8     and Muhamed Filipovic did not make it into municipal parliament or did

 9     they with a couple of delegates?

10        A.   I believe they didn't.  I think it was only the SDA and the SDS

11     who actually won seats.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that in the summer of 1991,

13     Zulfikarpasic and Muhamed Filipovic proposed an historic Serbian --

14     Serb-Muslim agreement whereby Bosnia would remain in Yugoslavia as an

15     equal republic but that they should move away from any concept of

16     regionalisation in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17        A.   Yes, I do recall that.  That was the option for Yugoslavia as

18     well, and the late Izetbegovic was offered to be the first president of

19     such a new Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the first crisis followed by

21     unrest erupted sometime in late August, early September, when the JNA

22     wanted to remove their records in order to be able to send call-ups for

23     mobilisation?

24        A.   That's correct.  That was sometime in late summer or early fall,

25     if I recall that correctly, when the -- when members of the army came

Page 24370

 1     from Tuzla to take over the records from the Ministry of Defence in

 2     Bratunac.  At that time, there was unrest in the town.  The Muslims did

 3     not want this to happen, and at least 10.000 people gathered in the town

 4     itself, and the atmosphere was very tense.  However, there was no spark,

 5     to put it that way, but the records were not removed from Bratunac at the

 6     time, the military records.  They remained there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that that was, in fact, the crucial point

 8     where the Muslims and the Serbs parted their ways, because the Serbs were

 9     in favour of Yugoslavia and the federal army, whereas the Muslims already

10     in late summer of that year by this action demonstrated that they were

11     not willing to side with the JNA and that they were going to oppose the

12     Yugoslavia as it was?

13        A.   I believe that the concord between these two parties in fact

14     broke down at that point in time for good.  The Muslim people, for the

15     most part, ceased responding to the call-up, mobilisation call-up, for

16     the JNA.  Some people still did.  Some Muslims still did respond, but

17     those families who sent their sons to the JNA were under pressure, and

18     they were harassed by their neighbourhoods so that there were occasions

19     where people returned from the army, and when the war broke out, the JNA

20     ended up having very few Muslims in its ranks.

21        Q.   Thank you.  The harassing that you mention, the harassing of the

22     families of the people who responded to the call-ups, they were being

23     harassed by Muslim extremists; correct?

24        A.   Yes.  These were loyal citizens, loyal citizens of the former

25     Yugoslavia and loyal to its army, and these people were harassed and

Page 24371

 1     maltreated by these extremists.  And in the end many of them actually

 2     succumbed to this pressure in fear for their own safety and the safety of

 3     their children once they returned from the army, and, in fact, they

 4     pulled them out, in many cases, of the army.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  On the other hand, no one interfered with the

 6     families whose children went to Croatia to be clandestinely trained for

 7     the police or those who joined the ranks of the National Guards Corps,

 8     the ZNG, in Croatia.

 9        A.   Well, there were people who went to Croatia.  They were referred

10     to as the Zengas.  They went there for training, but what their numbers

11     were, I don't know, but I do know that there were individuals who went to

12     Croatia for training, and they were called Zengas, members of the ZNG.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Does the Zenga actually mean, colloquially speaking,

14     a member of the National Guards Corps in Croatia?

15        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, I don't really know the correct

16     definition, but at the time, to us, that name seemed to be - well, how

17     should I put it? - almost equal to the term "Ustasha."  For Serbs, it was

18     a very threatening term.  I don't know how to put this right, but

19     something to that effect.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that some of your colleague citizens

21     who were in Croatian ranks committed some crimes and rapes, and that the

22     victims of those crimes then surfaced in paramilitary forces at the

23     beginning?

24        A.   Well, I recall the date, the 17th of April.  This was the day

25     when paramilitary groups appeared in Bratunac for the first time.  Now,

Page 24372

 1     who they were or what they were, I did not know at the time.  All I knew

 2     was they had come from Serbia, and once they arrived in Bratunac, the

 3     harassment and mistreatment and torture of the Muslim population began.

 4             There was some 15 men or so, and I recall this day -- can I go

 5     into detail?  Can I explain this further?

 6        Q.   Yes, please go on.

 7        A.   Well, that morning I left off for downtown Bratunac, around 8.00

 8     in the morning.  My house was on the outskirts.  And on my way to the

 9     centre of town, I stopped by a greengrocer's which had been blown up the

10     night before, and this greengrocer's was the property of an Albanian who

11     had lived in Bratunac for many years.  I knew the man, and I bought my

12     vegetables and fruit in his green -- in his grocery store.  So I stopped

13     by him to exchange a few words and asked him what had happened.

14             At that point a woman appeared.  Her name was Sida, and she came

15     crying towards us.  And I asked her, What's the matter, Sida?  Why are

16     you crying?  And she said, Oh, Buco - and that's my nickname.  That's

17     what everyone called me there - Buco, Bratunac is full of Chetniks, she

18     says.  What Chetniks?  What are you saying.  And then she says, Well, you

19     don't know you've just coming from home, but when you get there, you'll

20     see.

21             And then I headed for the centre of town, that was some

22     200 metres further.  When I arrived outside the department store, there

23     was a group of people.  A lot of people were gathered there, most of them

24     Muslim, and then on the other side of the road was Hotel Fontana.  And

25     there, I saw some 15 uniformed men with automatic rifles.  They were

Page 24373

 1     spread out on the terrace over 40 metres or so.  That's how long the

 2     terrace was.

 3             In front of the department store I noticed Miroslav Deronjic, and

 4     then I asked him, Miroslav, who are those men?  And he said, I don't

 5     know.  Literally, that's what he said.  He said, I don't know.  Fuck it -

 6     my apologies for using this terminology, but I'm just quoting -  when did

 7     they get here?  I have no idea, just like you don't.

 8             Then, at the end, next to these uniformed men I see a man from

 9     Bratunac who joined them, and I said, Miroslav, please go and tell that

10     man to remove himself.  What is he going with them?  And then he went and

11     addressed this man.  I suppose he told him, Just get lost.  What are you

12     doing there?

13             And so I remember this.  This was that first scene when

14     volunteers appeared in Bratunac and when the fear and feeling of

15     insecurity among the Muslims began and then increased, and then -- they

16     were increasingly -- began moving out of Bratunac.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct to say that this whole complex of

18     events was fanned by the existence of Muslim extremists who were, as you

19     told us, not in the town itself but in the surrounding villages?

20        A.   Well, there were no Muslim extremists in the town itself.  I

21     mean, the citizens of Bratunac itself, both Serb and Muslims, were loyal

22     to one another.  I think that it was the people from the rural areas,

23     from the villages, the surrounding villages, Serbs or Muslims.  I think

24     that had they not come to Bratunac, war would never have broken out in

25     Bratunac.

Page 24374

 1             What I'm trying to say is there were no extremists on either side

 2     in the town itself, and if there were some, that was negligible.  It was

 3     very -- it would have been very easy to deal with them.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  However, is it correct that the villages, both Muslim

 5     and Serbs, were rather close to each other and that they were more or

 6     less purely defined as -- by ethnicity; correct?

 7        A.   Well, yes, that's correct.  The villages are close to one

 8     another, but they were ethnically clearly defined.  They were not mixed

 9     villages.  It was either a Serb village or a Muslim village.  The mixing

10     of ethnicities existed in the town self.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Hranca as a Muslim concentration, was it very close,

12     on the very outskirts of Bratunac, and then right next to Hranca was

13     Glogovac with some 2.000 Muslim inhabitants and maybe two households of

14     Serbs.

15        A.   That's correct.  Glogova was ethnically pure, as was Hranca, and

16     Glogova was a big Muslim village.  They probably numbered some 2.000

17     inhabitants.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You were not a member of the local government at the

19     time.  Is it true that Deronjic was not a member of the local government

20     either at the time?

21        A.   That's -- well, I was not a member of the local government.  I

22     was busy with the local adult education centre.  That's where I worked.

23     And Deronjic was just the president of the local SDS.  He did have a

24     function, but that was at the regional level, not in the town itself.

25     But he was not a member of the local government.

Page 24375

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So let's just go back to Deronjic.  Was he a very

 2     prominent person, a professor, and for many years in opposition to the

 3     Communist regime, or, rather, a dissident?

 4        A.   That's correct.  Deronjic was a high-school teacher, a teacher of

 5     literature, and he was well known before the war as a person in

 6     opposition to the League of Communists.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that his reputation was based on his

 8     own conduct in Bratunac and that it was not something that was imposed by

 9     anyone from any side or outside of there, but, rather, it was his own

10     actions?

11        A.   Well, he became a prominent member, or he came to the fore of the

12     SDS by popular support.  His father was well known as an

13     Orthodox Communist, and even his mother was a Communist.

14             Now, Deronjic was a next door neighbour, and I remember how

15     surprised I was one morning when my father, I saw him getting dressed,

16     getting ready to go out, so I asked him, Where are you going?  He said,

17     I'm going to Miroslav's Slava, a patron saint's day.  I said, What's

18     Slava?  I mean, he doesn't -- you know, they don't celebrate that well.

19     They began celebrating that now.  When his father died, his mother --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  When his mother

21     died.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was buried without a priest,

23     and there was just a star on his -- on her grave, but then a few days

24     later Miroslav went there and removed that far.  This is -- and he

25     brought a priest there in order to have a funeral, a proper funeral

Page 24376

 1     service.

 2             So what I'm trying to say is that he was a prominent opponent of

 3     the League of Communists, and that started before the war.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Just on an aside, a question for you:  Do you agree

 6     that these were the most crucial divisions that divided the Serb people?

 7     They were either Chetniks or Communists, and they -- in that sense, there

 8     were far more internecine conflicts than -- within the ethnicity, Serbs

 9     amongst themselves, rather than against other ethnicities?

10        A.   Well, we were a small community.  We knew each other.  We knew

11     who belonged to what party, more or less.  And I can tell you, for

12     instance, that I was in trouble at the beginning of the war because I

13     remained in the League of Communists.  I did not choose to join the SDS.

14     I wasn't under specific pressure from anyone, but people did hold it

15     against me.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Probably what you're referring to is you went -- I

17     mean, that was how you were treated by some extremists but not by the

18     authorities.

19        A.   That's correct, not by authorities.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, please tell us, in view of the civilised conduct

21     and mutual relationships between the Muslims and Serbs in Bratunac, can

22     you tell us whether negotiations were underway, successful, to establish

23     two municipalities in Bratunac, and is -- was that, in fact, the -- the

24     main concern and the main substance of the political developments at the

25     time?

Page 24377

 1        A.   Well, that's what happened.  Now, Deronjic was a next door

 2     neighbour, and I had frequent occasion to talk about this with him.  He

 3     kept telling me that it was possible to have both a Serb and a

 4     municipal -- and a Muslim municipality in Bratunac.  I did not believe

 5     that.  I told him, Miroslav, I don't think that's possible.  He kept

 6     insisting and tried to convince me that it was possible, but in the end

 7     that's indeed what happened.

 8             First, they divided the police so that the Muslim police remained

 9     in the then police building.  The Serbs established their own police

10     station on the premises of an elementary school, but that did not last

11     long.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right if I say that part of the town itself in

13     some Serb villages were the Serb municipality, and part of the town and

14     Muslim villages were the Muslim municipality, and that the Serb police

15     would not go after criminals in Muslim villages and vice versa?  Was that

16     the idea, actually?

17        A.   Well, yes, that was the idea, because the very fact that the

18     villages are rather pure ethnically.  Perhaps the town itself was a bit

19     more of a problem.  But the Muslim police would do its work in Muslim

20     villages, and the Serb police would do their work in Serb villages, and

21     there would be schools for Muslims and Serbs separately.  Then also the

22     health centre would be divided.  There would be part of the health centre

23     that would treat Serb patients, and another part would treat Muslim

24     patients.  Then the government would be divided, companies would be

25     divided up.  Some would belong to the Muslims, others would belong to the

Page 24378

 1     Serbs.

 2             Well, as I've told you, I did not find that very clear.  I was

 3     quite skeptical about that and about the possibility of that kind of

 4     thing functioning, but anyway, that was a political decision made at the

 5     time, and we can see what that brought about.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right if I say that the city infrastructure, the

 7     public utilities, the waterworks, electricity and so on, that would

 8     remain as joint companies, and things that could be done at municipal

 9     level would be done at municipal level, whereas the town, the city

10     itself, would be one?

11        A.   Well, you cannot really build your own waterworks that quickly.

12     You cannot really have a Muslim waterworks and the Serb waterworks,

13     electricity, too.  Now, whether that would happen in the future or not,

14     only time could tell.  But that did not happen.  However, it is certain

15     that at least in the beginning, the infrastructure would be shared,

16     water, electricity, et cetera.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the Serb side was a bit more in

18     favour of this idea than the Muslim side but that the Muslim side did

19     accept that too?

20        A.   Now -- well, who advocated this to a greater degree?  Well, it is

21     possible that it was the Serb side.  A bit more.

22        Q.   Do we agree that what the Serbs advocated was remaining in

23     Yugoslavia, however, when that proved to be impossible, then this turned

24     out to be their choice?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24379

 1        Q.   Now, I would like to ask you the following:  Had Bosnia been

 2     reorganised that were -- let's just take the example of Bratunac.  Had

 3     Bratunac been reorganised this way, would this plan, based on the

 4     existence of two municipalities, would that mean that Muslims would be

 5     expelled, cleansed from Bratunac, or would they get the same that the

 6     Serbs and all the rest would get there?

 7        A.   Well, it is certain that that plan did not mean any kind of

 8     ethnic cleansing on either side.  It was in favour of co-existence.  How

 9     do I call it?  Well, yes.

10        Q.   Co-existence.  Yes.  Yes.  I was wondering how it was

11     interpreted.  Yes, well put.  Yes.  Co-existing.  One municipality by the

12     other one.

13        A.   Well, yes.  No one would prevent the population from mingling.

14     In companies, Serbs and Muslims would go on working together side by

15     side.  And then in government, I don't know.  Well, it's not that -- I

16     mean, there would be communication.  Nobody could stop communication.  I

17     mean, it couldn't have been stopped even during the war let alone in

18     peace and given that kind of co-existence.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, at that point in time, did you ever notice

20     in institutions or among prominent individuals any kind of wish to have

21     Muslims expelled or, heaven forbid, killed?

22        A.   I told you, no one ever advocated that, and people did not leave

23     Bratunac before the 17th of April, until these paramilitaries appeared

24     and until conflicts started in the neighbouring municipalities.  First in

25     the municipality of Bijeljina, and then a number of people started

Page 24380

 1     leaving, and then the conflict in Zvornik, and then a bit more people, I

 2     mean the Muslim population, started leaving.  And then finally when the

 3     paramilitaries arrived, then even more Muslim people started leaving

 4     Bratunac.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  At that point in time were there cases of Serb

 6     families leaving Bratunac even before the conflict broke out?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  Everyone seemed to feel that things were not moving

 8     in the right direction.  So even Serbs who had some place to go, say in

 9     Serbia, to send their children there, that's what they did, because it

10     was obvious that things were not moving in the right direction.  So quite

11     a few Serb women and children left Bratunac too.

12        Q.   As the conflict was getting closer to Bratunac, it was less

13     because of what was happening in Bratunac itself and more because of

14     everything that was happening throughout Bosnia; right?

15        A.   Yes.  I've already mentioned Bijeljina, and even more than that,

16     other places that are close to Bratunac.

17        Q.   Thank you.  However, in Bratunac itself, I mean not in the town

18     itself but in the villages, in the municipalities, there were extremists

19     on both sides; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you know anything about the military organisation of the SDA,

22     not to say the Muslims, because not all the Muslims were part of the SDA,

23     so the military organisation of the SDA, of the Patriotic League, and the

24     Green Berets?

25        A.   Well, yes.  People did talk.  Green Berets were being organised

Page 24381

 1     in the villages, this Patriotic League.  Also, there was guard duty along

 2     roads, in front of houses, et cetera.  Then it started on the other side

 3     too.  Serbs guarded their own houses.  Muslims guarded their own houses.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  At one point in time, even in town, in front of

 5     apartment buildings there were mixed guards sometimes as well; right?

 6        A.   Well, yes.  Attempts were made to that effect where both Serbs

 7     and Muslims lived to have these joint guards, and perhaps in some

 8     residential areas where there were privately owned houses, but that

 9     happened to a lesser degree.  In most cases it was Serbs who were

10     guarding their own and Muslims who were guarding their own.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, was it correct that Glogova was well known as,

12     not to call it a stronghold, but a location, a place where there were

13     quite a few extremists, and it was being said that there were lists of

14     Serbs that were supposed to be liquidated and that plans were made

15     because of that.

16        A.   Well, let me tell you, there were all sorts of rumours that were

17     heard.  That's what the Serbs heard, and I assume that the Muslims heard

18     rumours that were the opposite, and I think that this was mutual

19     intimidation.  But there were rumours to that effect, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In the Muslim documentation that we are going to deal

21     with later, we'll tender that through another witness, there is something

22     that I'd like to ask you about.  Did you hear about March and Potocari,

23     that JNA reservists were attacked and the JNA as such?

24        A.   I cannot remember the dates, but it is certain that people

25     talked.  There was an incident in this village and in that village, and

Page 24382

 1     there was an incident on the road here and there.  There were these

 2     incidents in the spring months of 1992.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   And the beginning.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would just like to enumerate the things that

 6     happened, the incidents that occurred before the 17th of April so that we

 7     can see what preceded the arrival of these paramilitaries.  So here it

 8     goes:

 9             On the 21st of March in Potocari, three attacks; on the

10     24th of March, an attack against Buljim; on the 25th of March, incidents

11     in Orahovac, Bukova Glava, at the expulsion of Chetniks, they say, from

12     Bukova Glava; then, on the 25th of March also Bukova Glava, the expulsion

13     of Chetniks; on the 25th of March sabotage in Zeleni Jadar, about ten

14     Chetniks were killed.

15             Have you heard of any of this?  I beg your pardon.  I really

16     should slow down.

17             There was this sabotage in Zeleni Jadar when ten Chetniks were

18     killed, they say.  Were these the workers at the mine in Zeleni Jadar?

19        A.   They worked for the forestry industry there.  There is a

20     furniture factory there, and there are people who work in the forest

21     itself.

22        Q.   And then in Nova Kasaba, this --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Please take a look at the previous question and

24     answer.  You read out all these -- I wonder whether that's a statement of

25     yours or a question.  You read out various places and asked a simple

Page 24383

 1     question in relation to the last place.  Then the witness answered only

 2     in relation to Zeleni Jadar.

 3             What purpose would it serve at all?  And I'm struggling to

 4     understand all these, but make -- ask one question at a time.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.  I wanted to

 6     summarise this and to hear the witness and to see what he did hear of and

 7     what he did not hear of, but I seem to be spending more time this way,

 8     and I do apologise for that.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did you hear about what happened at the JNA warehouse in

11     Nova Kasaba?

12        A.   All of these things that you mentioned, it's only Bukova Glava

13     that is in the territory of the municipality of Bratunac.

14             As for some of these things, I did hear about it because it is

15     nearby, after all.  The municipality of Srebrenica is very close to us.

16     However, now for me to say with any certainty I did hear this and I

17     didn't hear that, well --

18        Q.   Ah-ha.  What about Konjevic Polje, is that in Bratunac?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you remember on the 15th of April they launched some kind of

21     attack and there were no Serbs left in Konjevic Polje?

22        A.   There weren't any Serbs in Konjevic Polje anyway.  However, there

23     was this road going through Konjevic Polje.  The Milici-Zvornik road went

24     through Konjevic Polje, and I think it's on this road they stopped Serbs

25     and there were these incidents where the Serbs were victims.

Page 24384

 1        Q.   Thank you do you remember that they attacked a convoy of trucks

 2     transporting ore from a mine and that they killed and took prisoner --

 3     took some people prisoner?

 4        A.   They were taking alumina to Zvornik and there was this incident.

 5     And I think that the driver was killed, in actual fact.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us something about Judge Goran Zekic,

 7     who he was, and is it correct that he was killed on the 8th of May in

 8     some ambush?

 9        A.   Goran Zekic had a degree in law.  He was a judge in the

10     Municipal Court in Srebrenica.  He was the president of the

11     Serb Democratic Party for Srebrenica, and he was a member of parliament.

12     On the 8th of May, he was killed in an ambush.

13        Q.   Thank you.  He was a member of the joint Assembly, wasn't he?

14        A.   Yes, the joint Assembly.

15        Q.   How did this affect the general feeling in Bratunac?

16        A.   Well, along with Miroslav Deronjic, he was the most important

17     person in the area.  What Miroslav was in Bratunac, Zekic was in

18     Srebrenica.  And it's nearby.  It's 10 kilometres away.  So these two

19     were the two most important Serbs in the area, and the connotation was

20     highly negative as far as the Serbs were concerned, both in Srebrenica

21     and in Bratunac.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that on the 9th of May, a day later,

23     there was an attempt to disarm the people of Glogova and that this was

24     carried out by the JNA, part of the Novi Sad Corps, the

25     Territorial Defence, and the police?

Page 24385

 1        A.   I think that this was a response to Goran's killing, this

 2     operation of disarming Glogova on the 9th of May.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You do remember, don't you, that on the 3rd or 4th of

 4     May, in Hranca at the entrance into Bratunac, a JNA column was attacked?

 5     They were returning to Serbia to Central Bosnia.

 6        A.   Yes.  The JNA was leaving Central Bosnia and other parts of

 7     Bosnia, going to Serbia, so they went via Bratunac, and that's where the

 8     column was attacked.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So there were certain incidents, some before the

10     17th of April and others after the 17th of April.  And the culmination

11     was, isn't that right, on the 8th and 9th of May?

12        A.   Yes.  The killing of Goran Zekic and the disarming of Glogova.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just briefly, these paramilitaries, at first did

14     they introduce themselves as reservists, and then did some of them turn

15     into renegades?  And after that, were some of them placed under the

16     command of the Serb army, and were others expelled?  Can you tell us

17     briefly what happened.

18        A.   No one thought that they were part of the army, no one.  Let me

19     deal with this very briefly.

20             These were people who came from Serbia, who had been at the front

21     in Croatia and -- I don't know.

22             Now, what did they look like to us?  They wanted to loot.  I mean

23     there's one thing I haven't said.  Among these volunteers, there were

24     these two women as well.  One was called Dragana, and allegedly some

25     Muslims who were training there with the ZNGs had raped them, and it was

Page 24386

 1     said that they had come there to take their revenge, and people said that

 2     they had found those two men who had done that.  However, none of those

 3     volunteers got out of Bratunac alive.  All of them were killed.  They

 4     paid with their own lives.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So at least two of those killed Muslims were the

 6     victims of revenge for the rapes they committed in Croatia while in

 7     training there with the ZNG; correct?

 8        A.   That's what the story was.  We thought it was a normal thing to

 9     see men there, but we were surprised to see two women as paramilitaries,

10     and then people said that the reason why they joined the paramilitary

11     formations was that they came to find those who had raped them in

12     Croatia.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We heard here from some Muslim witnesses that the

14     local Serbs, prominent men and people from the government, told the

15     Muslims to lie low and to stay at home and be patient until the

16     authorities were able to get rid of the paramilitary formations.  Do you

17     have any personal knowledge as to that question?

18        A.   Well, you see, those paramilitary formations did not make me feel

19     safe either.  I was afraid too.  I did not suggest to the Muslims to take

20     shelter, although it seemed to have been the right thing to do.  I say

21     that, because whoever tried to help anyone else with the best of

22     intentions, it seemed like shooting yourself in the foot, because it

23     turned out to be a good thing for either the Muslims or yourself.  Such

24     was the situation.  No one could help anyone else.  Perhaps they could,

25     but at the risk of their own lives.

Page 24387

 1        Q.   Can you explain the situation -- the situations you experienced

 2     which would clearly indicate that both Serbs and Muslims feared such

 3     groups?  Did you have any such incidents where you tried to save some

 4     Muslims?

 5        A.   I wanted to help a good friend of mine, a co-worker by the name

 6     of Resid Sinanovic.  I tried to help him by asking Miroslav Deronjic, on

 7     Resid's request, to provide passes for Resid and his family since they

 8     wanted to leave Bratunac and join his brother in Skopje, who was a JNA

 9     captain.  He told him that the situation to him did not look like

10     something that would get any better and wanted to get away.

11             It was on the 5th of May.  I remember it, because my

12     saint patron's day was on the 6th.

13             I tried to explain it to Miroslav.  The next day, in the morning,

14     Miroslav provided me with four clean passes, and he said, You fill them

15     out.  I went to Resid's apartment, and there was his wife, his two sons,

16     and he.  We filled in the clean passes, we bid farewell, and he told me

17     he was supposed to go to Bjelovac where his parents lived.  It was around

18     12.00 on the 6th.  He was going to decide whether to continue immediately

19     or to leave for Skopje the next day.  He didn't have a very reliable car

20     at the time.  He had a Fico, F-i-c-o.  So he decided in the end to leave

21     in the morning, on the 7th.

22             Later on, he retold his story for me.  He crossed a bridge at

23     Ljubovija, some 3 kilometres from Bratunac across the Drina.  He entered

24     Serbia in Ljubovija next to a motel which is 3 kilometres from the

25     bridge.  The Ljubovija police awaited him, stopped him and returned him

Page 24388

 1     to Bratunac.  They took him back across the bridge.

 2             And from Bratunac, he went to Bjelovac, and then across the hills

 3     he took his wife and kids to safety, to Zenica.

 4        Q.   In other words, Deronjic's passes did not amount to much across

 5     the river.

 6        A.   No, not in Serbia, although I don't know why.  Our police did let

 7     him pass through across the bridge with the passes he had though.  The

 8     policeman knew him, too.  He had been a chief of police in a pre-war

 9     period.  So our policeman let him go, but the Ljubovija policeman made

10     him go back.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You also had some experience with your family and

12     relatives.  They, too, tried to help some others.

13        A.   Well, we had all lived there for years.  We are neighbours, and

14     everyone was trying to help everyone else.  However, there were many

15     cases when people tried to help and yet it would have been better that

16     they had not, because later on those who were helped were killed.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that by that time the rumour had it

18     that each Muslim had a Serb to kill, whereas you, in the town itself,

19     were trying to help each other?

20        A.   Well, there were lots of stories going around, all sorts of

21     things on both sides.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that at the time, in May, the Muslims

23     around Bratunac -- not in Bratunac itself but surrounding Bratunac, put

24     up barricades which resulted in Bratunac being completely cut off from

25     the rest of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Republika Srpska?

Page 24389

 1        A.   The Muslims had left Bratunac.  As for the roads, Bratunac could

 2     only communicate with Serbia, because in the direction of Konjevic Polje

 3     there were Muslims.  There was a Muslim village there along the road.  So

 4     for a while, Bratunac only had one road open to Serbia.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in early May you received some

 6     5.000 Serbs who had fled Srebrenica and that by that time the Serbs from

 7     Zenica and Central Bosnia began arriving too?

 8        A.   Yes.  Bratunac took in all the Srebrenica Serbs.  I think some

 9     5.000 of them arrived from the municipality of Srebrenica.  At the same

10     time, Serbs from some Central Bosnia municipalities arrived, as well as

11     some people from Zenica, et cetera.

12             Bratunac must have taken in some 6- to 7.000 refugees at the

13     time.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Before that, on the 1st or 2nd of May,

15     Gojko Stjepanovic was killed in Bljeceva.  And on the 8th of May, Zekic

16     was killed.  It became obvious that it would be very difficult to avoid

17     having a war.

18        A.   The first victim on the Serb side was Gojko Jovanovic from

19     Bljeceva as well as Milo Zekic and his wife.  They were the first

20     victims, and it all took place around the 1st or 2nd of May.  They were

21     the Serb -- first Serb victims in 1992.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that at the time the municipal

23     authorities had no power whatsoever to deal with the paramilitary

24     formations and that the paramilitaries even slapped prominent people

25     around and took some of them parading through town while they were tied

Page 24390

 1     up?

 2        A.   Well, yes.  The -- I tried to explain that the paramilitary

 3     formation was as much of a problem for the Muslims as it was for the

 4     Serbs, and I speak strictly from my point of view.  No one could hold any

 5     sway over them.  They were armed.  They had vehicles.  They just kept

 6     driving around along the roads, and we thought that they were going to

 7     wage the whole war by driving around, judging by their behaviour.

 8        Q.   Who was the most prominent person in the police on the Serb side,

 9     and was he trying to stand up to them?

10        A.   The commander of the Bratunac police at the time was

11     Milutin Milosevic.  In my view, as I knew him, he was the only person who

12     intended to stand up to them, but unfortunately, in Sandici village, just

13     beyond Kravica, he was killed in an ambush alongside another 11 Serbs.  I

14     think he was the only person who meant to deal with the paramilitary

15     formations seriously.  To his misfortune and ours, he was killed early

16     on.

17        Q.   So it was an ambush in Sandici in 1992, at the very beginning,

18     where he and another 11 Serbs were killed.

19        A.   Yes.  I think so.

20        Q.   Following the paramilitary formations -- let -- tell us first,

21     how did it come that they were killed, for the most part?

22        A.   Well, they kept driving along the road between Srebrenica and

23     Bratunac.  On one occasion, the Muslims set up an ambush in Potocari and

24     killed four.  Then if -- as one goes on to Glogova and Kravica, they were

25     all killed in their cars.

Page 24391

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Following that -- sorry.  Before that there was this

 2     Makedonac person, and then there was someone else from Montenegro.

 3        A.   There were different kinds of paramilitary formations.  There was

 4     this Bosanac person and then a Bekija and others.  I no longer remember

 5     who and what they were.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that even Deronjic was beaten up as

 7     well as other prominent Serbs?

 8        A.   Yes, there were.  I can tell you of more prominent people from

 9     Bratunac who were beaten up or mistreated by them.

10        Q.   If one wanted to help a Muslim, you had to ask him not to tell

11     anyone.  Otherwise, you would be hurt too; correct?

12        A.   It's difficult to talk about that.  You were not supposed to even

13     think or mention helping a Muslim, let alone do.

14        Q.   Do you recall that Deronjic asked us and even visited us when we

15     were in Zvornik -- he was basically asking for help to deal with the

16     renegades in his municipality?

17        A.   I talked to Deronjic frequently.  We were next-door neighbours,

18     and I told him, Deronjic, well, you need to put a stop to this.  What is

19     this paramilitary presence?  His late father was saying the same thing.

20     He was trying to tell him to tackle it.

21             Some Muslims came to see his father as well.  Many people knew

22     his father.  Since World War II, he was the co-operative manager, and he

23     hailed from the village of Magasici, which is adjacent to the village of

24     Glogova.  Many Muslims came to Miroslav's father, Milan, trying to ask

25     him to use his influence over his son to put a stop to these paramilitary

Page 24392

 1     formations.  It's difficult to describe these situations.

 2             Those paramilitary formations were not dear to my heart, and I

 3     can only imagine how the Muslims felt.

 4        Q.   Is it true that the they also beat up the brigade commander and

 5     that Mauzer had a clash with them because they had taken one of his

 6     soldiers prisoner and he turned his APCs on them?

 7        A.   That was the conflict with Mijovic.  He was sent from Serbia.  He

 8     was sent from the Serbian DB, and he kept bringing in prominent Serbs,

 9     beating them up.  He took Obrenovic in, who at the time must have been

10     over 50.  He beat him up.  Then there was Dragan Trisic, who was later on

11     assistant commander for logistics.  He refused to provide him with fuel,

12     and then he beat him up.  And then Pavle Loncarevic, who was a company

13     director, was also beaten up.  Then Zoran Radic and many other prominent

14     men.  They were all beaten up by Mijovic and his paramilitary soldiers.

15        Q.   One other question before the break.  Is it correct that the

16     local authorities were sealing off the apartments left by Muslims so that

17     they be preserved until they returned and then you received the 7- or

18     8.000 refugees?

19        A.   Yes, that was the attempt they made at the outset, but when this

20     stampede of Srebrenica refugees came upon us, things were no longer under

21     control.  People went into empty Muslim houses on their own.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I am looking at the

23     clocks, Your Excellencies.  Can I keep on, or are we going on a break so

24     that I can move on to the next topic when we return?

25             JUDGE KWON:  We are going to have a break and resume at 11.00.

Page 24393

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 4             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, if I may, please, introduce to the

 5     court Ms. Tatiana - I knew I'd get this wrong - Jancarkova, who has been

 6     a pro bono legal assistant with my team for many months but who we will

 7     sadly be losing soon.  She has been a terrific assistance because of her

 8     B/C/S expertise, in particular, and her legal acumen.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I will now try to get to the events of 1995 as

14     soon as possible, so I will try to formulate the remaining questions from

15     the other period in such a way that you can answer with just a yes or no,

16     but whenever you feel you need to expand upon that, please feel free to

17     do so.

18             Is it true that in early April, before the arrival of these

19     warriors in their cars from Serbia and Croatia, the Green Berets also

20     displayed their presence in the street and checked vehicles and -- and

21     passengers?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So that was yes.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that Glogova had about 2.000

Page 24394

 1     inhabitants and that after this disarming operation between 50 to 60

 2     people were killed, but you don't know how that happened.

 3        A.   I know that 60 people were killed, but I don't know the details.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in December 1992, in a village

 5     called Bjelovac, which was predominantly Serb, 109 Serb civilians were

 6     killed?

 7        A.   Yes, in a single day.

 8        Q.   Before that, 35 people were killed near Bratunac; correct?

 9        A.   In that same village in Bjelovac.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that in our earlier political system each

11     municipality had a Territorial Defence brigade and the president of the

12     municipality was ex officio the president of the Defence council and the

13     civilian commander, as it were, of such brigade?

14        A.   It is true that each municipality had its own

15     Territorial Defence.  However, whether that unit was at the brigade level

16     or not, I don't know, and I don't know about the president of the

17     municipality being the commander of such a unit, but in short, they did

18     have their Territorial Defence units.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, is it true that the Territorial Defence had also

20     stored within various companies and factories arms and weapons that

21     belonged to it?

22        A.   Yes, that's true.  They had their own depots there including

23     weapons, equipment, and uniforms.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the president of the municipal

25     board, in other words, of the local government ex officio was the head of

Page 24395

 1     the civilian protection service?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that these municipal

 4     Territorial Defence units later became municipal brigades, that they kept

 5     their municipal titles or names and that the municipality funded these

 6     units and provided logistics for them?

 7        A.   Yes.  I don't know when the Territorial Defence actually turned

 8     into a military formation and when it was renamed to become the

 9     Bratunac Brigade.  And what was -- what else was it that you asked me?

10        Q.   That the municipality --

11        A.   Yes, logistics.  Yes, the logistics for the brigade was provided

12     by and funded by the municipality, which means that they provided for

13     their food, uniforms or clothing, cigarettes and so on, depending on what

14     they could afford, depending on the economy, the local economy.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Am I correct when I explained to the Main Staff

16     during the war that the municipalities would actually provide more funds

17     for their own municipal units, for their own children, as it were, than

18     they would for the central Main Staff?

19        A.   I believe that you were right in that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the so-called Crisis Staffs, for

21     instance, right now during this freeze, they still exist, that these

22     Crisis Staffs were not a new body?  They were just had to be organised

23     for novel conditions, and they were not a new form of government, as it

24     were?

25        A.   Well, I believe that Crisis Staffs comprise the existing

Page 24396

 1     officials, the president of the municipality, the defence ministry, the

 2     civilian protection, and so on.  So they were members of those

 3     Crisis Staffs ex officio, and that's how it was at the beginning.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  So would you agree that these Crisis Staffs were set

 5     up so that procedures and dead-lines and delays would be avoided?  In

 6     other words, they focused on their work, and if they were members of the

 7     Crisis Staff, there were no dead-lines or anything.  They had to report

 8     immediately.

 9        A.   Well, yes.  They had to in order to be operational.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree with me that even today, there is a lot

11     of snow there right now, Crisis Staffs are still in existence and in

12     operation?

13        A.   Well, yes, throughout Serbia.  Well, nowadays they call them

14     staffs for -- staffs for natural disasters, but the purpose is the same.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to move to 1994.  In 1994, you were

16     invited as a professional, although you were a member of an opposition

17     party, you were invited to take control or to be -- to head the municipal

18     authorities.

19        A.   Well, the post of president of the Executive Committee is

20     appointed by the Assembly.  I actually was there as a candidate.  There

21     was another candidate, and I won.

22        Q.   The Assembly had a majority of SDS seats; correct?

23        A.   Well, yes, probably, but not absolute -- probably an absolute

24     majority.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that I, as well as other members of

Page 24397

 1     the SDS during the war, insisted on confidence votes when needed, and at

 2     one point in time the chief of police actually was removed from his post,

 3     although he hadn't done anything wrong, but he was not successful in

 4     preventing looting and things like that?  So do you recall that at that

 5     time the municipal government, too, was replaced?  There was a reshuffle

 6     there too.

 7        A.   Well, in the course of the war, the municipal authorities

 8     performed their functions in keeping with the law.  That includes the

 9     president of the Executive Council, the police commander and others.  And

10     of course if someone failed to perform properly or competently in their

11     position, they would be replaced.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you learn that some actions were taken around

13     Srebrenica before the operation or did you, yourself, see that some

14     soldiers appeared on the perimeters of the protected area?

15        A.   Are you referring to 1995?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Well, let me put it this way:  People knew about this operation.

18     I mean, people who were in the army talked about it.  They knew about it,

19     of course.  And of course everyone had family members, and that's how

20     word spread.  So everyone more or less knew that they would move on

21     Srebrenica in order to separate the enclaves, to cut them off.

22        Q.   [No interpretation]

23        A.   Well, yes, that there would be an operation in order to separate

24     the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa in order to contain them -- or,

25     rather, so that there could be more control over the enclaves, because

Page 24398

 1     these enclaves were used to launch various sabotage actions by Muslims

 2     against civilians, and in order to put that under control, the operation

 3     was launched on Srebrenica.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Slow down, Mr. Karadzic.  So separating the

 6     enclaves, cutting them off was part of your question, not part of the

 7     answer.

 8             Please do not overlap or put a pause between the questions and

 9     answers.  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED:  I would like this to be translated to the witness.

11             JUDGE KWON:  You heard, Mr. Davidovic.  Please put a pause before

12     you start answering the question, for the benefit of the interpreters.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do my best.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, the witness

16     was the first to mention the separation of enclaves, and that was in the

17     last lines of page 40, and then I asked whether that was the purpose of

18     this.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now, do you agree with me that the agreement envisaged that the

21     Zeleni Jadar-Podravanje-Skelani road between the enclaves was under this

22     agreement ours and that it was cut off because of this unlawful expansion

23     of the enclaves?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  At one point when these actions began -- or, rather,

Page 24399

 1     do you agree with me that this is precisely where these actions began,

 2     between the enclaves Zeleni Jadar and so on; in other words, to the south

 3     of the -- Srebrenica?

 4        A.   Well, yes.  To the north, it was Serbia and Bratunac.  It was

 5     territory controlled by Serbs.  And on the southern side, that's where

 6     the Muslim enclaves were.  And this in reference to Bratunac.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned actions launched from Srebrenica.  Did

 8     you know of the existence of the 28th Division, earlier known as the

 9     8th Operational Group?  Did you know who their commander was, and were

10     you aware of their frequent raids or actions into the Serb territories?

11        A.   Well, yes, I did know.  People knew about the existence, and

12     they -- their existence, and it numbered about 7.000 men, and it was

13     under the command of Naser Oric.

14        Q.   Did tragedies follow once they left the enclaves and ventured

15     into Serb villages, and who were the victims usually in those villages?

16        A.   Well, they left the enclaves on several occasions to attack Serb

17     villages, and mostly in these villages it was the civilian population

18     that they attacked.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember any particular such action?

20        A.   Well, there were a number of those, but I remember an action at

21     Christmas time on Kravica in 1993, and then there was another one in

22     Fakovici, in Skelani.  All these were raids launched from the enclaves

23     where there would be anywhere between 20 and 60 victims each time.  There

24     were a number of such raids on Serb villages launched from these

25     enclaves.

Page 24400

 1        Q.   Is it correct that they did not spare women or children or even

 2     cattle?  If they couldn't take it with them, they would just kill them?

 3        A.   Well, there were all kinds of horrors there.  There was murder,

 4     there was torching of houses, looting, and all the worst.

 5        Q.   Is it true that there is a big cemetery where these victims

 6     were -- their victims were buried and that there were women and children

 7     who were buried there, all these victims of Oric's units?

 8        A.   Well, most of the people from the Srebrenica and Bratunac

 9     municipality were buried in that cemetery, because Srebrenica was

10     captured, and the largest part of the Bratunac cemetery now -- or,

11     rather, the -- the size of the Bratunac cemetery is huge, much bigger

12     than would be necessary for a town the size of Bratunac, which numbers

13     about 7.000 inhabitants.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you were president of the local government when

15     you went to Pribicevac; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Ms. West mentioned that this was a very unpleasant encounter with

18     Mladic, who did not show much respect for the civilian authorities, and

19     he wanted you to be in the trenches.

20        A.   Well, yes.  He was very unpleasant, and he treated me with a lot

21     of arrogance, if I can put it that way, although I told him who I was.  I

22     told him that I was the president of the Executive Committee of the

23     Bratunac municipality, but he never showed in any way that he knew of me.

24     It was only the next day that he showed that, but that's the kind of

25     person he was.  He treated people like that.  It wasn't just me that he

Page 24401

 1     treated in this manner.  He also treated his own men and people in that

 2     way.

 3        Q.   Do you agree that that was not his personal attitude towards you?

 4     That is precisely what I wanted to ask.  Rather, our officers were closer

 5     to parties of the left than to the SDS.

 6        A.   Well, I don't know whether he was irritated by that.  I was not

 7     even wearing a uniform at the time.  I arrived there wearing civilian

 8     clothes.  Maybe that irritated him too.  What I was doing there in

 9     civilian clothes when there's a war going on.

10        Q.   Thank you.  However, do you assume that he thought that you were

11     a member of the SDS since you were in government?  Do you agree that our

12     army was closer to the parties of the left?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  Now, whether he thought that I was a member of the

14     SDS, well, perhaps people found that a bit strange then.  I was not part

15     of that political option, and I held a particular office.  So maybe that

16     was his assumption too.

17        Q.   Thank you.  It was your understanding -- or, actually, did you

18     know that their army had withdrawn from Srebrenica and that our army

19     entered that town without any kind of serious resistance?

20        A.   Well, there was some small resistance, but not the kind of

21     resistance that we had all expected.  It was only on the following day

22     that I understood that the army had withdrawn to other places, or,

23     rather, that they were not defending Srebrenica.

24        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 24402

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, microphone.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   In this conversation that was recorded on the

 5     25th of February, 1998, and also in other statements, you said that you

 6     found out -- actually, you said in this interview 15- to 16.000, and then

 7     later on up to 20.000 civilians flowed into Potocari, Muslim civilians

 8     arrived in Potocari; is that right?

 9        A.   Well, that is my rough estimate.  It was hard to give any kind of

10     accurate estimate.  It's masses of people at a particular place.  Now,

11     was it 16.000?  Was it 20.000?  One thing is for sure, there were lots of

12     people there.  It's certainly not an exaggerated figure.  Perhaps the

13     figure I gave was even smaller than what happened in real life.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And you came there as a representative of the

15     municipal authorities to see whether the soldiers needed anything.  This

16     had to do with what was happening in Srebrenica; right?

17        A.   Well, the brigade was asking for a lot, and that was unusual.

18     Food, civilians, uniforms, boots, and so on.  And I went up there to this

19     Pribicevac where there was this one battalion.  It was the 3rd Battalion.

20     Their location was the most difficult of all, and I wanted to see what

21     the situation was regarding food, cigarettes, et cetera.

22        Q.   So you were there in your official capacity, just as you had been

23     informed in your official capacity that there were civilians, many

24     civilians, in Potocari, and that the sick should be taken care of as

25     well.  And as you said in your interview, people were milling about, and

Page 24403

 1     they were supposed to be supplied with food and water.

 2             Can you tell us what you did there, you the authorities?

 3        A.   At the meeting at the Fontana Hotel on the 12th, we were given a

 4     specific task -- or, rather, when it became clear that the Muslims from

 5     Srebrenica did not wish to remain in the area.  It was when they

 6     officially stated that they wanted to leave the area.  Then

 7     General Mladic said to us, You gentlemen from the civilian structures,

 8     make an effort now to the best of your ability to help that civilian

 9     population in Potocari in terms of logistics supplies, water supplies,

10     food supplies, health care.  The meeting was almost over.  Say it was

11     between 11.00 and 11.30.

12             Then I and the president of the municipality, Simic, went to the

13     municipality, and we worked out a plan as to what we should do to help

14     the population in Potocari.  For that purpose, we mobilised two water

15     trucks, one from the public utilities company and the other one from the

16     fire brigade.

17             All the bread that was baked by our bakery was supposed to be

18     sent up there.  In the Red Cross we found some food, some cookies, I

19     believe.  All of that was supposed to be sent up there too.  However, we

20     thought that all of that was not enough, so in the neighbouring

21     Republic of Serbia we asked the municipality of Ljubovija, that is

22     6 kilometres away from Bratunac, we asked for help so that they could

23     give us whatever they could afford.  So they sent us bread, a water

24     truck.  And then the municipality of Zvornik too.

25             President Simic was also supposed to contact the UNHCR, because

Page 24404

 1     he had already had communication with them.  So they were supposed to

 2     take part in this action too.

 3             Already two hours after the end of the meeting we were in

 4     Potocari along with these supplies, and we distributed that to the people

 5     up there, although up there the delegation that attended the meeting in

 6     the Fontana Hotel was not there.  Mandic, the president of the

 7     municipality, then Ibro, and a woman named Camila, they were supposed to

 8     meet us up there once we arrived with this humanitarian aid, and then

 9     they were supposed to distribute it.  However, they did not meet us

10     there, so we were doing this as best we could spontaneously, if I can put

11     it that way.  They could have probably done this in the right kind of

12     order had they met us there.  They would have known, but anyway.

13             We tried to help the population up there to the best of our

14     ability.  Truth to tell, our help was not sufficient, I'm sure of that,

15     but we tried to send even more than we could actually afford, but that

16     certainly was not sufficient, because there were lots of people up there.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like to ask you to specify something.

18     I'd like to see whether I understood you correctly.  Did you know that on

19     the evening of the 11th there were two meeting at the Fontana Hotel, but

20     you did not attend them; right?

21        A.   That's right.  That's correct.  It was only at this meeting on

22     the 12th at 10.00 I realised that that meeting had been preceded by

23     another meeting which was attended only by Nesib Mandic, the president of

24     the municipality.  That was on the 11th, in the evening, I think.  I

25     don't know.  And then he could not say what it was that the people

Page 24405

 1     wanted, but he agreed, probably with General Mladic, that he would go to

 2     Srebrenica and that he would come on the following day with the definite

 3     view as to what it was that they wanted.  That was my understanding at

 4     the meeting, that this was their final position, that they wanted to

 5     leave the area of Srebrenica.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Let me try to work this out now.  There was one

 7     meeting with Karremans.  There was the second meeting with Karremans and

 8     the Muslims on the 11th.  Up until then, people did not know whether the

 9     civilians would return home or whether they would stand by the decision

10     to leave the area, and that was defined at the meeting that you attended

11     on the 12th at 10.00 in Fontana; right?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   Am I right if I say that up until then it was uncertain whether

14     they would leave, and until then buses had not been mobilised, and no one

15     realised that they would leave for sure.

16        A.   I did not know that that would happen.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So you were there personally in Potocari when this

18     food was being distributed; right?

19        A.   Well, in this first convoy that we brought, the water truck, the

20     bread, et cetera.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who was present at the meeting on the

22     12th?

23        A.   At the hotel.  That meeting was attended by General Mladic,

24     General Krstic, the commander of the Dutch Battalion, his deputy, the

25     interpreter, the delegation of the Muslims consisting of Nesib Mandic,

Page 24406

 1     the President of the municipality, and Ibro Nuhanovic [Realtime

 2     transcript read in error "Pavlovic"] and Camila from the civilian

 3     authorities of Bratunac.  There was Ljubisav Simic, the president of the

 4     Municipal Assembly; Miroslav Deronjic; and I.  The chief of the security

 5     centre from Zvornik, Vasic, was present there as well, and there was an

 6     officer.  I think he was a colonel of the Army of Republika Srpska.  That

 7     were the attendees at that meeting.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  What was Mladic's position?  I believe that he was

 9     the only one who spoke.  What was Mladic's position?  Were the Muslims

10     expected to express their views or was something imposed on them?

11        A.   The meeting was chaired by General Mladic, and he asked, What is

12     your decision?  His offer to them was that they could stay if they so

13     wished in the areas where they had lived until then, along with all

14     guarantees of freedom of movement as enjoyed by the rest of the

15     population, the non-Muslims.  However, the Muslims would have to hand

16     over their weapons while those who had bloodied their hands would be

17     prosecuted.  So all the others could live there safely, enjoying the same

18     rights like the rest of the population, the non-Muslim population.  They

19     were very set in their determination to leave the area.

20        Q.   Thank you.  As for those first departures in 1992, there was

21     practically 100 per cent certainty that this was temporary and that they

22     would -- they would come back.  Was there the possibility of them coming

23     back some day in this case, and did some of them eventually return?

24        A.   At the meeting itself that was not discussed.  However, now the

25     situation is as follows:  Whoever wanted to return, did return.

Page 24407

 1     Everybody had their property returned 100 per cent.  A lot of houses were

 2     repaired and so on.  However, on the 12th at that meeting, that was not

 3     discussed, whether it was temporary or permanent.  If they wanted to

 4     leave, they could leave, and there was no mention of whether it was

 5     temporary or permanent.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  When you were in Potocari, did you see a film that

 7     shows that day in Potocari, the 12th of July?  Did you see a film?  Does

 8     that film faithfully represent what you saw, that there was no pressure

 9     there, no strictness?  As you said, people were milling about, and

10     everybody as trying to find a solution for themselves.

11        A.   I spent about two hours there.  While I was there, I did not see

12     anyone harassing anyone else, beating anyone else, abusing, mistreating

13     anyone else.

14             I said that there were masses of people there.  There were also

15     the members of the Dutch Battalion.  When we arrived, the Dutch soldiers

16     were lined up.  Say it was a line 40 or 50 metres long.  And in this way

17     they had cordoned off the people from Srebrenica from the road where the

18     army and police of Republika Srpska were moving, as were others.

19             My understanding was that the role of the soldiers from the

20     Dutch Battalion was to prevent anyone from going to the place where the

21     people were and to prevent people from getting out onto the road.

22             Now -- actually, it's hard for you to imagine what it was like in

23     Potocari.  People were milling about there, and there's this river there,

24     but no one could get there from the road.

25        Q.   You said milling about, and -- let me help the interpreters.  And

Page 24408

 1     it's not even Pavlovic, it is Ibro Nuhanovic; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  Was there any strictness there?  Were people just

 4     walking around?  Did you see that film?

 5        A.   I saw lots of films.  They're shown on TV now as well.

 6        Q.   Is it correct that it wasn't -- that people were treated

 7     strictly, but they were milling about, as you said very picturesquely?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You recognised some people?

10        A.   Or they recognised me, to put it better.

11        Q.   So they called out to you and you spoke to them?

12        A.   Yes.  I spoke with some of them.

13        Q.   However, there was this real possibility that someone took --

14     take a personal revenge for the things that had taken place in the three

15     years up to that point?

16        A.   Well, in Potocari there were different soldiers there, but I

17     didn't see any Bratunac Brigade members.  I simply didn't know the

18     soldiers who were there.  And as for the Bratunac Brigade, I know them.

19     The soldiers that were there were people I didn't know.  I don't know

20     whether it was a unit from Zvornik or Vlasenica or Milici or some other,

21     perhaps, police unit.  In any case, I didn't know the soldiers.

22             There wasn't much possibility of people taking revenge.  I also

23     told you there were DutchBat soldiers there as well.  And I didn't see

24     anyone trying to mistreat anyone or take revenge.

25        Q.   Thank you.  But the area was probably cordoned off -- well, we

Page 24409

 1     can see that the people were mingling there and milling about.

 2        A.   Well, they were supposed to take the people to a larger area

 3     where everyone could stay, and then people simply dispersed up to a

 4     kilometre away.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that as the people came in, you tried

 6     to keep some order, and you said today that you tried to make an

 7     arrangement with the Muslim authorities to wait for you there and help in

 8     organising.

 9        A.   Well, yes.  They were more familiar with the people.  They knew

10     their priorities.  We didn't have enough supplies for everyone.  You can

11     just imagine when hungry and thirsty people burst in.

12        Q.   You had enough water but only limited quantities of bread.  You

13     had as much as the bakery could produce and what you received from the

14     municipality of Ljubija in Serbia.

15        A.   Well, water was an easy thing to deal with.  There was also a

16     river nearby.  Food was more difficult.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You were also informed that you as the civilian

18     protection were to take care of some 40 or so wounded and sick; correct?

19        A.   Yes.  In the health centre in Bratunac, we placed some 20 beds.

20     People were accommodated.  Some were on the beds and were all medically

21     assisted.

22        Q.   Did you establish that for the occasion, because of the

23     inhabitants who turned up in Potocari?

24        A.   Yes.  Before that we didn't have beds, because our population

25     went to the hospital in Zvornik.  It was only provisionally made for the

Page 24410

 1     situation itself.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that once the cameras left that someone took the

 3     supplies from the people that had been given to them, like chocolate and

 4     bread?  Did anyone take it away from them?

 5        A.   It was -- it would be crazy.  No one could have done that.

 6     Whatever you distributed was gone the same moment.  There's no discussion

 7     about that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  After the third meeting, in the afternoon, on the

 9     12th of July, vehicles began arriving, buses and trucks; right?

10        A.   I saw that at around 8.00 p.m.  I was in my office in the

11     municipal building.  I was there with Dragan Mirkovic, the public

12     utilities company director.  All of a sudden we heard from our

13     first-floor window that there was some noise and vehicles arriving.  We

14     looked out and saw three buses parking in front of the municipal

15     building.

16        Q.   Before the meeting on the -- the third meeting in the Fontana in

17     the afternoon of the 12th, no one had been evacuated?

18        A.   That is correct.  In the afternoon on the 12th when the meeting

19     was concluded at around 11.30, that's when means of transport were sought

20     and buses arrived later in the afternoon.

21        Q.   I would like to clarify something.  Were you present during a

22     telephone conversation between myself and Deronjic on the 11th or 13th of

23     July?

24        A.   No.  I was never present during any conversation between you and

25     Deronjic.

Page 24411

 1        Q.   I'm sorry, then.  I must have confused you with another witness.

 2             In any case, you heard that on the 11th, Deronjic was appointed

 3     civilian affairs commissioner in Srebrenica?

 4        A.   Yes.  Deronjic said so.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  On the 13th, did you also send water to the Muslims

 6     who were captured during their breakthrough attempt, who were then

 7     gathered at Sandici meadow?

 8        A.   No.  The buses in front of the municipality - I mentioned three -

 9     in front of them there was a policeman when we came out, in front of the

10     first bus.  We asked him where these people came from.  He said, Well, we

11     brought them in.  We asked him where they were going.  He replied that

12     they were to go to Batkovic to be exchanged.  Then at some point I saw a

13     man on the bus knocking against the window, and I recognised him.  I

14     think he was an Omo Jahic from Bljeceva.  He worked in the mine and was

15     municipal deputy before the war.  I told the policeman that there was a

16     man trying to tell me something, and I asked to be allowed to get in the

17     bus.  It was already dark by that time, but still it was very hot and

18     humid.

19             The policeman allowed me in, and I asked him, Omo, what do you

20     want?  He used my nickname.  He said, Buco, brother, could you provide

21     some water?  And I asked the policeman if I could.  He said, If you have

22     it, go ahead.

23             There was a water fountain in front of the municipality, and we

24     found a plastic water tank, and when we told them they could get water,

25     they all managed to have one such water tank.  We took them all, filled

Page 24412

 1     them up with water and gave them to them.  We did the same with the other

 2     bus, and we filled up at least 50 such water tanks.

 3             Perhaps that's what you meant when you asked me about water being

 4     provided for the people at Sandici, but I didn't take any water to

 5     Sandici.

 6        Q.   Could it have been someone else then working for the civilian

 7     protection as part of your operation?  Did anyone take water trucks to

 8     Sandici?

 9        A.   It is possible, because we had the fire brigade under us, and

10     they had a water truck.  It is possible they took water there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear anything about the incident in Kravica

12     on the 13th of July in the evening, and if so, when?

13        A.   I heard about it on the 14th in the morning at 7.00.  Two

14     co-operative managers, Jovan Nikolic and Dragan Nikolic arrived in my

15     office.  They told me what had happened the previous day in the afternoon

16     in the co-operative at Kravica.  It was the first time I heard of it.

17             I was astonished.  That's the first time I heard about the event.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Please go ahead.

19        A.   Well, they stayed with me for an hour or so, told me some details

20     about what happened, and they, too, had problems by the Serb -- caused by

21     the Serb soldiers who did that, who were there.  They said that several

22     hundred people were killed in Kravica and that the corpses were still

23     there.

24        Q.   They were appalled too?

25        A.   Yes.  They wanted to know what to do, because there wasn't much

Page 24413

 1     for them to do anyhow.  It was a military operation.  If anyone was to do

 2     anything, it was the army to do so.  There was nothing there for us.

 3        Q.   What did you learn about how the incident took place?

 4        A.   What I learned was that a Muslim prisoner took a policeman's

 5     rifle and killed him.  It provoked a reaction, and they were all killed,

 6     massacred.  Now, whether it was so or not, I don't know.  That's the

 7     story I heard.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, who did you hear that from?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't be certain

11     that it is the two men who told me that, the two Nikolics.  In all

12     likelihood they told me that, but I may have heard it later on as well.

13     I no longer know who I heard it from.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   But that's the story that prevailed and was taken as true by

18     most.  That's the story everyone was familiar with.

19        A.   Yes.  That is why I am uncertain who told me first.  I heard

20     certain variations later on.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Following your conversation with the policeman

22     guarding the buses who told you they were to go to Batkovic, did you

23     think that all of the prisoners would be indeed taken there?  Did you

24     have any knowledge, or were you under an impression that there were other

25     plans in store for them?

Page 24414

 1        A.   Well, I was convinced it would be so.  Nothing had happened up to

 2     that point.  At that time, there were 80 captured Serb soldiers from

 3     Majevica who were held in Tuzla, and apparently these prisoners were to

 4     be exchanged for the soldiers in Tuzla.  I was convinced it would turn

 5     out that way.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You were also under the impression that the incident

 7     in Kravica had not been planned but that it was triggered by the killing,

 8     when the rifle was taken away from a policeman.

 9        A.   Well, I was so much surprised that -- I was so astonished,

10     because as I said, at the Fontana meeting, there wasn't even a hint of

11     anything like that.  I thought that the things agreed on at the meeting

12     were to be implemented that way.

13             It will never be clear to me how things got out of hand to that

14     extent and why it all happened.  The story is that the reason was when

15     the rifle was taken from the policeman and he was killed.

16        Q.   Do you remember that the event in Kravica back in 1993 could have

17     been a further circumstance which made the flaring up of the situation in

18     1995 easier?

19        A.   It's all possible.  There was a war, and I really don't know what

20     to think of it.  It could have contributed.

21        Q.   It's difficult to deal with all that misery; right?

22        A.   Well, yes.

23        Q.   Do you know how the bodies were buried?  Do you know whether it

24     was done by the municipal services and whether they were in charge of

25     taking hygiene and sanitation measures?

Page 24415

 1        A.   Well, I wasn't interested.  To me, everything that was done was

 2     done by the army.  They mobilised part of the civilian protection, and it

 3     seems they participated in the cleaning up afterwards.  However, no one

 4     asked me anything about that, and I didn't issue any orders to anyone,

 5     including the civilian protection in that regard.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Under our law, the army could mobilise the civilian

 7     protection.

 8        A.   Yes.  The Ministry of Defence had that right.  The civilian

 9     protection was under their cap, and they could assign them as they

10     wished.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know anything about the requests of certain

12     officers to accommodate some soldiers, to billet them there, and how

13     Deronjic and the civilian authorities resist that attempt asking that

14     they be taken out of Bratunac?

15        A.   You're referring to the situation of the 12th in the evening when

16     the buses arrived in Bratunac.  There were six buses in total in front of

17     the municipality.  I was informed that on a football pitch there were

18     another 20 to 25 buses.  I was surprised by that too.  Perhaps that's

19     around 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening I met Deronjic.  Bratunac is a small

20     town, and the municipal building is in the centre.  So the entire area

21     includes 100, 200 metres.  And I asked Deronjic, Why are they bringing in

22     so many buses to Bratunac?  He literally said, We were being set up by

23     Rajko Dukic.  All these buses came from him, from Mile and Kasaba.  And

24     he sent them all to Bratunac.  Then I told him, Miroslav, try to use your

25     contacts with the government or the president to have the buses taken out

Page 24416

 1     of Bratunac, including the people on them.

 2             It was around 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening.  The next morning,

 3     the buses indeed left Bratunac.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   Now, I did not ask Miroslav whether he had called anyone to

 6     intervene and whether the buses left on those orders or on that

 7     intervention, but all I know is that the bus did leave.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The remainder of the -- the remaining members of the

 9     civilian authorities in Bratunac, did they share your sentiments about

10     the events in Kravica?  Was that a shock to them as well, a surprise?

11        A.   Well, for everyone there it was a surprise and a shock.  At

12     first, people couldn't even believe that something like that could have

13     happened, but it did.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear of people being taken off buses,

15     individual people, or, first of all, do you agree that these civilians

16     left, civilians from Potocari, left towards Kladanj without anyone being

17     taken off the bus?

18        A.   Well, at the time, I had not heard about people being taken off

19     buses, not at that time.  Perhaps a few months later when people were

20     talking again about and retelling the events there were such instances,

21     but not in Bratunac.  On the way to Vlasenica and Kladanj and so on,

22     there were stories that some buses were stopped there and the people were

23     taken off buses, but in Bratunac that did not happen at the time.  At

24     least I didn't know of it and I didn't see any such thing.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 24417

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If I can intervene.  Mr. Davidovic, you referred to

 2     Rajko Djukic.  Do you remember having said that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dukic, D.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You said, referring to Deronjic, "We were being set

 5     up by Rajko Dukic.  All these buses came from him, from Milici and

 6     Kasaba.  And he sent them all to Bratunac."

 7             Do you remember having said that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And in the Popovic transcript, page 9217, you

10     testified that "Rajko Dukic from Milic is framing -- framing us up."  Do

11     you remember having said that also?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just interpreted verbatim

13     Deronjic's word.  He said Rajko Dukic is framing us up with this.  He

14     sent his buses from his municipality to Bratunac municipality.

15             JUDGE KWON:  It's a bit difficult to follow what it meant.  Could

16     you tell us who Mr. Dukic was or what he was, and what Deronjic meant by

17     saying so, Rajko Dukic is framing this -- or setting this up.  Could you

18     expand a little bit more on that.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rajko Dukic is from Milici.  He was

20     the manager of the bauxite mine, and he was a very influential person

21     both in Milici and in the general area referred to as Birac.  I think

22     that in that area he was the most prominent political figure.  I believe

23     that he was the man in charge even higher up than Deronjic.  Now, whether

24     there were some rivalries between him and Deronjic in the political

25     sense, I don't know, but I don't think that this convoy which he said he

Page 24418

 1     had sent towards Bratunac, I don't think it is a reflection of their

 2     animosity, the animosity between the two of them.

 3             Now, why Deronjic said that this was -- that Rajko Dukic was

 4     framing us up, then he would know why he said that.  I don't, but I just

 5     interpreted his words verbatim.

 6             Have I cleared that up a bit?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I wonder whether you can answer, tell us why

 8     or how come Mr. Dukic could send the buses to Bratunac at all.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.  I can't hear very

10     clearly.

11             THE ACCUSED:  The witness didn't hear translation.

12             JUDGE KWON:  My question was how come --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear this.  I cannot hear.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Our usher will assist you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you well, but I cannot

16     hear the interpreters, or I can barely hear them.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, do you hear me now well?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you very well, and I

19     could hear you before as well, but interpreters -- now -- now it's

20     better.

21             JUDGE KWON:  My question was:  How come Mr. Dukic was able to

22     send the buses to Bratunac at all?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said that he was

24     a very prominent person, and he may have a sway over the army as well.

25     That's my assessment.

Page 24419

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can I try and clarify this.  Is it correct that Muslim soldiers

 4     were captured in various woods in Milici, Vlasenica, Cerska, Zvornik, and

 5     Kamenica municipalities, and that all those prisoners of war were sent

 6     back to Bratunac at the time?  So was it in that sense that Deronjic said

 7     if they had been captured in Milici, he should have kept them in Milici?

 8        A.   Well, I believe that the largest number of soldiers were captured

 9     in Milici, because the road, or, the route that the Muslims took towards

10     Kladanj and Tuzla went through their municipality.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So Deronjic considered that Dukic probably felt that

12     they should not remain in his municipality, although they had been

13     captured there, and that they should be sent and kept in the

14     municipalities where -- and that Deronjic felt that they should be kept

15     where they were captured.

16        A.   Well, yes.  Why would they be sent to Bratunac?

17        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I don't know if this is clear for the

18     Trial Chamber, but that is how I understood, that they felt -- that he

19     felt they wanted to get rid of these prisoners of war.  They didn't want

20     them on the territory of their municipality.  Am I correct?

21             Is that more or less the gist of his suspicion that this was a

22     frame-up by Dukic?

23        A.   Well, yes.  The gist is -- or the point is, you know, I want to

24     just take the burden off my back and put it on someone else's back.

25        Q.   Well, that's a saying, isn't it?  That's our saying.

Page 24420

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now, you then heard that some of those

 3     prisoners were held at the school building and that after the evacuation

 4     it turned out that there were people killed and that bodies were found in

 5     almost all of these classrooms, and that, too, was a shock?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And do you remember that the civilian protection and the

 8     utilities, the public utilities company that also deal with funerals,

 9     that they then buried these men?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   When did you learn, aside from the media and various rumours that

12     were going around, when did you learn that there were some killings on

13     route to Batkovici?

14        A.   Well, some 10 days or so later, 10 to 15 days later.

15        Q.   Do you believe those rumours?

16        A.   Unfortunately, yes, because I heard this from competent, to put

17     it this way, people that that was done.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you confirm for the Trial Chamber that

19     Batkovic as a co-operative and a prison for prisoners of war was near

20     Bijeljina and that in order to get to -- if you wanted to get from

21     Bratunac to Batkovic you would have to get through Konjevic Polje,

22     Zvornik, and so on?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when the buses set out towards Zvornik, towards

25     Batkovici, did you and other people around you believe that they would

Page 24421

 1     end up in Batkovic?

 2        A.   Well, I didn't really investigate that, but I was told by this

 3     police officer that they were going for Batkovic, but whether that

 4     actually happened or not, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to ask you this:  Did you ever hear

 6     from any Serb, any official or any outsider, did you ever see or sense or

 7     learn that they wanted to eradicate Muslims, to kick them out of there,

 8     or to do anything to them that they wouldn't want to be done unto them?

 9        A.   Never.  At the meeting on the 12th, I learnt that it would be

10     carried out properly as agreed at the meeting, and I was even regaled by

11     what the commander of the Dutch Battalion said, who said that he had

12     received an order from his command or his government to take part in the

13     organisation of this transport of Muslims towards Kladanj, and the

14     meeting was already wrapping up, we were all standing, and at that point

15     even Mladic said, Well, I'll provide the buses, you take care of the

16     fuel.  So it ended up on a more positive note, if I can put it that way,

17     and I was convince that that's how it would be carried out, but of course

18     the story's different now.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you agree that the entire Serb population,

20     including the authorities, as well as the parties, Serb parties, differed

21     significantly in their position vis-a-vis various Muslims?  In other

22     words, is it correct that Serbs did not have a problem with Muslims

23     per se, but that they also had close ties with Zulfikarpasic and other

24     Muslims?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did if the hear the other

Page 24422

 1     names.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Just as you had good relations with Muslims in the town itself,

 4     whereas the extremist were in the surrounding villages?

 5        A.   Well, I'm sure Muhamed Filipovic and Adil Zulfikarpasic were --

 6     or, had followed the softer line than the SDA, and according to us, our

 7     sense was that it would be easier to reach a compromise with them than

 8     with the SDA.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I just wanted to show here, were Serbs against

10     Muslims or against fundamentalism?

11        A.   Well, absolutely.  Not at one point -- I never thought that they

12     were against Muslims as an ethnicity, but they were against

13     fundamentalism.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Davidovic, and my apologies if I was not precise

15     enough, but thank you for your efficient answers to my cross-examination.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

17     Your Excellency, and I've completed my examination three minutes before

18     time.  So I would really appreciate being applauded here, because usually

19     I go too far and I step over my time limit.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Ms. West, do you have re-examination?

22             MS. WEST:  I do, Mr. President, and I wonder if the Court would

23     agree to take the break now and indulge me with this time.

24             JUDGE KWON:  How long?

25             MS. WEST:  I suspect it will be at least 20 minutes.

Page 24423

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have the break.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll have a break for an hour and resume at

 4     1.20.

 5                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

 8             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. West, just one question, please bear with me.

11                           Questioned by the Court:

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Davidovic, I would like to take you back to the

13     evidence you gave just before the break.  Dr. Karadzic asked you:

14             "You heard that some of these prisoners were held at the school

15     building and that after the evacuation it turn out that people were

16     killed and there were bodies in almost all of these classrooms, and that,

17     too, was a shock."

18             And your answer was:

19             "Yes."

20             Do you recollect this?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, can you tell us who were those people who were

23     killed and their bodies were in the classroom?

24        A.   The people who were killed were Muslims, and their bodies were in

25     classrooms.

Page 24424

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  Were they -- were they prisoners of war?

 2        A.   I don't know their origins.  I don't know how to classify them,

 3     but for the most part these were people who had lived in Srebrenica, in

 4     that area.  Now, as to who brought them there and how they happened to be

 5     there, I don't know about that.

 6             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.  Yes, Ms. West.

 7             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I have 65 ter 16205,

 8     please.

 9                           Re-examination by Ms. West:

10        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, on page 54 today you mentioned a gentleman who's

11     name was Omo Jahic as the man who was on the bus.  Do you remember that?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  His name was not Omer but Omo, O-m-o, just three

13     letters.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And could you spell his last name, please?

15        A.   Do you want me to spell it?  J-a-h-i-c.  J-a-h-i-c, five letters.

16        Q.   And do you know his father's name?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And today --

19        A.   He was about 50 to 55 years old, that man.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.  And today at page 63, you were

21     talking about killings on the route to Batkovici, and the question was:

22             "Do you believe those rumours?"

23             And your answer was:

24             "Unfortunately, yes, because I heard this from competent, to put

25     it this way, people that that was done."

Page 24425

 1             Can you please tell us from whom you heard this.

 2        A.   Well, I don't know if I said that this was on the way to

 3     Fakovici, because Fakovici are in the opposite direction.  They are not

 4     downstream but upstream, up the Drina River, but maybe that's not even

 5     important.

 6             I heard that -- no, I'm not really clear on what you mean by

 7     Fakovici.  I believe I did not mention Fakovici in this context.

 8        Q.   You're right, you didn't.  You said -- my fault.  You said

 9     Batkovici.

10        A.   Oh, sorry, so that's Batkovici.  Batkovici is a town you get to

11     via Konjevic Polje, Zvornik, and it is in the Bijeljina municipality.  I

12     didn't hear that they were killed in Batkovici but, rather, en route from

13     Zvornik to Batkovici.  I heard that.  I mean, there were rumours in town.

14     I heard from people who were members of the army that these things had

15     happened, but I couldn't really say that I heard this from people who

16     would spread rumours.  Rather, this is something that actually did

17     happen.  There was mention of Kozluk, Celopek, Pilica.

18        Q.   Okay.  So if I should understand correctly, you don't remember

19     the actual names of the people who told you this, but you remember those

20     people were trustworthy.

21        A.   Exactly.

22        Q.   So now we have 65 ter 16205 in front of us, and I want to talk to

23     you about this in regard to your testimony on page 48 today.  On page 48,

24     you indicated that the bus had not been mobilised by the 10.00 meeting,

25     and that would be the 10.00 meeting at the Hotel Fontana on the 12th.  So

Page 24426

 1     I'd like to go through this together.  This is a document from the

 2     12th of July, Zvornik public security centre.

 3             And number 1 says:

 4             Acting in accordance with your dispatch, I contacted the civilian

 5     commissioner in Bratunac, Miroslav Deronjic.

 6             Number 2:

 7             A meeting with Mladic and Krstic was held at the Bratunac Brigade

 8     headquarters at 8.00 at which tasks were assigned to all those involved.

 9             Now, you were at a meeting with Mladic at 8.00 at the

10     Bratunac Brigade headquarters; right?

11        A.   I think this is not a reference to that meeting, because there

12     were no tasks assigned, and General Krstic was not present, and he is

13     mentioned here.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   I believe this is not about that meeting, not at the meeting with

16     Mladic at 8.00.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, notwithstanding those two facts, you indeed did meet

18     with Mladic at 8.00 that morning at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters;

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes, correct.

21        Q.   And number 3:

22             The military operation is continuing according to plan.  The

23     Turks are fleeing ... while the civilians have gathered in Potocari,

24     about 15.000.

25             4:

Page 24427

 1             Consultations are underway to appoint the chief of the public

 2     security situation in Srebrenica and the commander of the police station

 3     in Srebrenica and select 15 policemen from the ranks who along with the

 4     newly elected president of Srebrenica, the chairman of the

 5     Srebrenica Executive Board and priests will immediately take over all

 6     important facilities in the town.

 7             Sir, my question for you is whether at this -- looking at

 8     number 4, does this sound to you that planning and decisions were already

 9     well underway by that point, by the time this document was written?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please be shown a better

11     copy, because I'm not sure the translation is correct.  I don't think

12     that what we see in English here is actually consistent with what it says

13     in Serbian, because it's out of the question that a priest would take

14     over the Executive Board.  There must be something -- some mistake there.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

16             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I don't have a better version, but if --

17     if the concern is the issue with the priests, I can take that part out of

18     my question.

19        Q.   So, Mr. Davidovic, assuming take the priest part out, does that

20     sound to you, the things that I read off, that the planning and decisions

21     were already well underway by the writing of this document?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, my apologies, but I would

23     also like to know what other mistakes there may be in translation other

24     than the priest issue, because the -- the text in Serbian is not quite

25     legible.

Page 24428

 1             JUDGE KWON:  While we can following the English on our personal

 2     computer, why don't we zoom in in the Serbian, B/C/S version.  A bit

 3     farther.

 4             MS. WEST:

 5        Q.   Does that help you, Mr. Davidovic?

 6        A.   Well, yes.  This is a bit better, but I have never seen this

 7     letter before.  As far as I could see from the heading, this was sent

 8     from the police station in Bijeljina to the Ministry of the Interior at

 9     Pale.  And they're reporting on some of their activities, or some

10     activities that I knew nothing about, nor was I ever informed of anything

11     of that sort.

12        Q.   Well, at that time, at 8.00 in the morning on the 12th, you were

13     aware that there were events going on in Potocari and Srebrenica;

14     correct?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, leading.

16             MS. WEST:  I can rephrase.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

19        Q.   On the morning of the 12th, what was your understanding as to

20     what was going on with the refugees from Srebrenica in Potocari?

21        A.   At the time, I didn't even know that there were refugees in

22     Potocari at 8.00 in the morning.  I only learned of that at the meeting

23     at the Fontana Hotel at 10.00, I learned the fact that there were

24     refugees in Potocari.

25        Q.   All right.  And we move to number 5 which talks about that

Page 24429

 1     meeting you attended:

 2             A meeting will begin at 10.00 that morning with representatives

 3     of the UNPROFOR and the International Red Cross and the Muslim

 4     representative of Srebrenica at which an agreement will be reached on the

 5     evacuation of the civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj.

 6             So let's stop there.  Indeed, you went to a 10.00 meeting; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And would you agree with me that as regards this document, it

 9     appears that it had to have been written before that 10.00 meeting?

10        A.   Well, I couldn't really comment on that.  I really don't know

11     anything about that.  This is the first time that I see this, and I see

12     that it's the police station in Bijeljina and the ministry.  I don't

13     really know.

14             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, we do have a better version of this

15     document.  I think if you unlock or --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we put it on the [overlapping speakers]

17             MS. WEST:  We can upload it.  One moment, please.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask Ms. West to ask the

19     witness how far Bijeljina is from Bratunac.  Perhaps we should establish

20     that as well.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We can know that from any map.

22             Yes.  I think this is better.  Yes.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Mr. Reid.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we ask the witness to read the para --

25     para 5, in particular those in parentheses, because English translation

Page 24430

 1     says it was illegible.

 2             MS. WEST:

 3        Q.   Sir, if you can go ahead and read both 4 and 5, please.

 4        A.   The fourth paragraph:

 5             "An agreement is underway on appointing the chief of the public

 6     security station in Srebrenica and the commander of the police station

 7     Srebrenica, as well as a selection of 15 police officers from the VRS who

 8     would, together with the newly appointed president of the Srebrenica

 9     municipality and the president of the Executive Committee of Srebrenica

10     as well as priests, immediately take control of all significant buildings

11     in the city."

12             Paragraph 5:

13             "At 10.00, a meeting with representatives of the UNPROFOR,

14     International Red Cross, and Muslim representatives from Srebrenica has

15     begun, and an agreement on the evacuation of all civilian populations

16     from Potocari to Kladanj has been reached."

17             And then in parentheses:

18             "(So that they would have more problems there.)"

19             This is not logical.  What it says in parentheses is that so that

20     they should have more problems there or more difficulties there.

21        Q.   Okay.

22        A.   "One hundred trailer trucks for transport have already been

23     assigned."

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  So we'll go to --

25             JUDGE KWON:  So the translation is not the meeting will begin at

Page 24431

 1     10.00.  The meeting has begun.  Did you notice the difference in

 2     interpretation.

 3             MS. WEST:  If we can have him read it again.  I didn't see that

 4     there.

 5        Q.   Sir, can you read the beginning of paragraph 5 again?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In Serbian, it is -- it

 7     could be interpreted in either way.  Either will begin or has begun.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "At 10.00 a meeting has begun or

 9     will begin with representatives of the UNPROFOR and International Red

10     Cross.  At 10.00, a meeting is beginning."

11             MS. WEST:

12        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  But that -- that paragraph goes on, "At

13     10.00 the meeting is beginning," and it goes on, it says, regarding the

14     agreement of the evacuation of all civilian population from Potocari.

15             Sir, when we talked to you about the meeting at 8.00 -- or when

16     you spoke about the meeting at 8.00 and then the 10.00 meeting that you

17     went to, you indicated to the Court that the evacuation of the Muslims

18     from Potocari had not yet been decided, that in fact they had been

19     given -- they would be given a choice.  So how do you rectify this

20     paragraph with your own testimony?

21        A.   I've said that at the meeting at 10.00, I realised that there was

22     an earlier meeting where only the president was present.  That

23     Mancic, Nesib, and no agreement had been reached at that meeting.  So at

24     this new meeting, the third meeting at 10.00, a delegation of Muslims

25     arrived.  There was larger number of people together with Nesib Mancic.

Page 24432

 1     There was also Ibro Nuhanovic and --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the third name.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they came with a proposal that

 4     they had decided on in Srebrenica.  So at this second meeting, in my

 5     view, Nesib could not could not say either way we are leaving or we are

 6     staying.  I believe he had to go for consultations to Srebrenica, and

 7     then he returned later on to this meeting, the three of them, and they

 8     told them -- they told us what they had decided.

 9             MS. WEST:

10        Q.   But in regard to that meeting at page 48 you also said that the

11     buses had not been mobilised by the 10.00 a.m. meeting, and then page 53,

12     you said, when the meeting concluded at 11.30 that's when transport was

13     sought and the buses arrived.  But let's go back to this document.  You

14     just read that a hundred trailer trucks have been provided for transport.

15             Mr. Davidovic, would you agree with this document, or I will ask

16     for your comment as to the inconsistency with your testimony.  Do you

17     agree that the buses and transport had already been prepared?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let me -- let me clarify this.  Is it your position

19     that this document was written before the meeting?

20             MS. WEST:  My position is that it was written before or just as

21     the meeting was happening, the 10.00 meeting.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Immediately after the meeting.

23             MS. WEST:  Mr. Davidovic's testimony --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you -- could you repeat what you said?  It was

25     before or just as the meeting was happening?

Page 24433

 1             MS. WEST:  If -- if -- the question is when this document was

 2     created.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So it will depend upon the interpretation of the --

 4     of para 5.

 5             MS. WEST:  Right, which is the --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And according to what Mr. Davidovic read, it was

 7     translated as the agreement has been reached.  Line 21, page 72.  So

 8     before going further, I want that part to be clarified first.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I may.  Here there is just

10     a projection of what kind of agreement will be reached, because it says

11     here at 10.00 a meeting begins with the UNPROFOR members and members of

12     the International Committee of the Red Cross as well as Muslim

13     representatives from Srebrenica where an agreement on evacuation is to be

14     or will be reached.  So that would imply that that was about to happen

15     that --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Hmm.  Very well.

17             MS. WEST:

18        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Davidovic.  Let's go back to the trucks,

19     the hundred trailer trucks that have been provided for transport.  Would

20     you agree that at the writing of this document the mobilisation of trucks

21     had already begun?

22        A.   I've already said that this meeting ended at around 11.00 or a

23     bit after 11.00.  It ended hastily in a way, and this is why:  Somebody

24     came into the room where the meeting was being held and said that the

25     population in Potocari was getting restless and that there was a threat

Page 24434

 1     that -- there was a fear that the people, the civilian population, the

 2     people will set out from Potocari towards Bratunac on foot, which would

 3     be a disaster, because if 10.000 people were to move, you can imagine.

 4     So in a way the meeting was hastily wrapped up to prevent this from

 5     happening, and they wanted the delegation to get back to Potocari and

 6     tell them that there would be transportation provided.

 7             As for these 100 trailer trucks, I don't know that there were as

 8     many.  No one talked about it at the meeting, nor do I know who it was

 9     who provided all these vehicles.  Probably the military.  We had no

10     influence on that, nor did anyone ask us to do anything in that respect.

11     We were just asked to be humane, but nobody asked us for any vehicles or

12     fuel or anything like that.

13        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, at line [sic] 76 and 7, you said that the

14     people -- there was a concern that the people would set out from Potocari

15     towards Bratunac on foot and so then it appears that the meeting ended

16     hastily.  I'm not familiar with that.  Have you testified to that before,

17     in your memory?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  The witness hasn't confirmed anything about the

24     document.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

Page 24435

 1             MS. WEST:  The witness indeed confirmed that he was at an 8.00

 2     meeting with General Mladic at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters.  That

 3     is the second paragraph.  He indicates that he didn't see Krstic and no

 4     tasks were assigned.  I think it's very possible that tasks were assigned

 5     afterwards, but this document deals with the very same subject matter

 6     that that witness testified to at his own meeting.  I think the witness

 7     has documents authenticated, but I think the witness is certainly making

 8     it reliable and certainly relevant.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something?

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I add something?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Davidovic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the meeting at 8.00, those who

16     were there, Simatovic, Aco Tesic, and I, we were there for about

17     20 minutes, then we left.  So around 20 minutes.  We left the command

18     when we were told to attend a meeting at 10.00, Simic and I.  Maybe the

19     meeting was resumed following our departure, but we were no longer there.

20     Perhaps at 8.30 Krstic indeed arrived and they continued with the

21     meeting, but we were no longer there.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic also testified about attending 10.00

23     meeting in that regard.  This document may help us -- contextualise that

24     part of his evidence.  In that regard, we will admit this.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4373.

Page 24436

 1             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 30940A.  Sorry.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry.  We will admit only the first page.  Only

 3     that document.  It consists of four or five documents.  Yes.

 4             MS. WEST:  65 ter 30940A.

 5        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, before we leave this issue about buses as regards

 6     your testimony that they had not been mobilised by the time of the

 7     Hotel Fontana meeting, I'd like to show you this:  This is an

 8     intercept from 12 July at 7.35 in the morning, and it's --

 9             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation].

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Please, language is of

12     utmost importance here.  If something is stated as being provided, it

13     doesn't mean it was commandeered or mobilised.  "Provided" means that

14     there was information where vehicles were, but they were not mobilised.

15     Perhaps you can ask the witness to distinguish between the two words.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Ms. West would be happy to reformulate

17     the question.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry.  It also affects the

20     previous document, which says "provided."  In other words, they had

21     information where to find those assets rather than them being mobilised

22     already.

23             JUDGE KWON:  That's sufficient.

24             Yes, Ms.  West.

25             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 24437

 1        Q.   This regards today's testimony when you spoke about buses, and

 2     this is an intercept July 12th.  It's between Krstic who at that time was

 3     still the Chief of Staff, and Krsmanovic who was head of transportation.

 4     And we'll just read this.  It's quite short:

 5             "Krstic:  Hello, is that Krsmanovic?

 6             "X:  Yes, go ahead.

 7             "K:  Listen write this down.

 8             "X:  Yes.

 9             "K:  Now, Pale, Visegrad, Rogatica, Sokolac, Han Pijesak,

10     Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac, Zvornik.  Now, this from all these places,

11     50 buses in total are to be at the stadium in Bratunac by 1700 hours.

12             "X:  At 1700 hours at the Bratunac stadium.

13             "K:  Make very sure this is done.  Is that clear?

14             "X:  Understood.

15             "K:  Go ahead."

16             Mr. Davidovic, my question for you regards the night of the 12th.

17     You testified today that there were several buses in the town of

18     Bratunac.  You, yourself, saw at least 6 and then you had information

19     that there were 20 to 25 at the stadium.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber,

20     if you know, how early did all those buses arrive in Bratunac?

21        A.   I think this intercept does not discuss the buses I mentioned.

22        Q.   And why -- go ahead.

23        A.   The buses I discussed arrived in front of the municipal building

24     between 8.00 and 8.30 p.m.

25        Q.   And prior to that period of time, during the day did you see any

Page 24438

 1     other buses in Bratunac?

 2        A.   I did not.

 3        Q.   And for some of that day you were in Potocari; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Go ahead.

 6        A.   I was in Potocari perhaps between 2.00 and 4.00 p.m.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, in regard to the issue of the term

 9     "mobilised," I used the term because I was reciting the witness's

10     testimony today, and he said:  "If I say that up until then it was

11     uncertain"--

12             JUDGE KWON:  Page?

13             MS. WEST:  Forty-eight.  Excuse me, excuse me.  The question is

14     this:

15             "Am I right if I say that up until then it was uncertain whether

16     they would leave and until then buses had not been mobilised, and no one

17     realised that they would leave for sure?"

18             And the answer was:

19             "I did not know that that would happen."

20             But, Your Honour --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say page 48?

22             MS. WEST:  Page 48 of today's transcript, lines 14 through 17.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Seven to -- I'm sorry, I couldn't find it.  Let us

24     proceed.

25             MS. WEST:  Okay.  And may this document be marked for

Page 24439

 1     identification.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether witness has given any

 3     foundation about this document.  At the moment, could you tender it at a

 4     later stage?

 5             MS. WEST:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MS. WEST:

 8        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I'm going to draw your attention to other

 9     testimony today.  At page 15, you were talking about the date of

10     April 17th, 1992, and you were talking about paramilitaries who appeared

11     at that time for the first time in Bratunac, and you said once they

12     arrived, the harassment and mistreatment of the Muslims began.  Do you

13     remember that testimony?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And is it your position that the -- the harassment of Muslims

16     during that period of time were to be blamed on the paramilitary groups

17     who came to Bratunac?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And is it your testimony that the Bratunac leadership was not

20     co-operating or co-ordinating with these paramilitary groups or were not

21     involved with the paramilitaries' presence in Bratunac?

22        A.   As far as I know, they were not.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MS. WEST:  65 ter, please, number 23611.  If we can go to page 5,

25     please.  It begins with "Factual Basis."

Page 24440

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  On what basis, Mr. Karadzic?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the basis that this material,

 4     92 quater, was not admitted in my case and is part of the plea agreement

 5     in question.  I don't think it should be relied on in this case.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  What's the problem with putting a passage in the

 7     document to the witness?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, this is actually attempting

 9     to use the statements of this witness, and you've already found that it

10     is unfair for those statements to be used at this trial.  So I don't see

11     why it would be legitimate to put a statement which has been excluded to

12     the witness.

13             JUDGE KWON:  She's not tendering this document as evidence.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, that's true, but by -- she's using the

15     statement essentially to impeach this statement.  So she's making

16     derivative use of the statement.

17             I also think, Mr. President, while we're on this subject that

18     before she proceeds any further, she should have to state her -- put her

19     case to the witness, because she's now cross-examining him, and she

20     should be required to put her case first and then not use any document

21     which has previously been excluded.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to respond, Ms. West?

23             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I'm not cross-examining this witness.  I

24     specifically am avoiding using those types of questions.  I'm trying to

25     elicit information about the subject matters this witness brought up on

Page 24441

 1     cross-examination to elicit more information, which is exactly what I

 2     plan to do with the statement.  The witness can agree with these facts or

 3     not agree with these facts, and he can also provide us more information.

 4     I've not moved to admit this statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Are you not going to contradict what the witness

 6     early on?

 7             MS. WEST:  I mean, I asked the witness whether the information in

 8     this statement is consistent with his own memory and some of it will be,

 9     I suspect, based on what he has said and ask him to explain in those

10     situations where it's not.  I'm not sure what this witness will say about

11     that, but I think it will be helpful to the Trial Chamber.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  There are some unclear parts, but the Chamber sees

15     your line of question is -- is to contradict what witness said, so -- but

16     in any event, the Chamber will allow you to continue and that -- even if

17     the document is -- was not admitted or is not going to be admitted, I

18     don't see any problem in asking a question as to whether witness agrees

19     with a certain part of the document.  Please carry on.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  If the witness agrees

21     with a certain part of the document, then isn't the Prosecutor getting in

22     through the back door what you --

23             JUDGE KWON:  No, you can ask -- cross-examine the witness based

24     upon the witness's evidence.  We do not -- going to admit this document.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  No, it doesn't matter whether you admit it or not.

Page 24442

 1     If someone affirms the content of the document, it wouldn't make any

 2     difference whether you've admitted the document or not.  The substance

 3     will have been admitted.  I was wondering maybe if we could have this

 4     conversation outside the presence of this witness, because I would think

 5     if we think it through as to what the possibilities are, it might be

 6     better if the witness isn't hearing that, but if you think about what --

 7     I would like to know, for example, which paragraphs she wants to put to

 8     this witness and if he confirms it.  That's one thing.  If he -- if it

 9     contradicts then it may be another matter, but I don't think we should

10     discuss that in front of the witness.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Has the -- I will refrain.  Just a second.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies, Mr. Davidovic.  If you could excuse

14     yourself for a moment.  The Chamber will discuss some procedural issues.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE KWON:  How shall we start?  First of all, Ms. West, why did

17     you need Deronjic's plea agreement or factual basis to put a certain

18     question to the witness?

19             MS. WEST:  The -- the witness himself brought up a -- a number of

20     items that are in this plea agreement -- excuse me, the factual basis for

21     the plea agreement.  It is a very good chronology of what was going on in

22     Bratunac at the time.  It is a good basis by which to see -- to explore

23     with this witness what are the actual facts.  It is just another

24     document.  And I would suggest to the Court that it really -- it would be

25     as if I were taking the statement of another witness and showing it to

Page 24443

 1     this witness --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Why could she not ask him independently of any other

 3     documents?

 4             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I think I could do that as well, but I

 5     think this Court has specifically allowed under its May 19th, 2010,

 6     decision that parties may confront a witness in court with the witness

 7     statement or transcript of prior testimony of another witness from

 8     another case.  I would submit that this factual basis is no more than

 9     another statement of a witness.

10             JUDGE KWON:  So you are confront -- you would like to confront

11     your witness?

12             MS. WEST:  I'm not sure that I would use the word confront

13     because I'm not sure what this witness will say.  I want to ask him about

14     some of the facts in here to see if he can provide us any more

15     information.  This all came up during the cross-examination of this

16     witness.  This did not come up as part of the direct, and this is

17     directly in response to that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  What part of the document are you going to put to

19     the witness?  What topics are there?

20             MS. WEST:  The topics that I expect to talk about are

21     specifically the paramilitaries that he spoke about in --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Para numbers?

23             MS. WEST:  Yes.  In particular, paragraph 14.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Shall we move to ...

25             MS. WEST:  That's -- yes.

Page 24444

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Fourteen, yes, and --

 2             MS. WEST:  Fourteen, 15, and 16, and they all concern the subject

 3     matter.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Paramilitaries.  And then?

 5             MS. WEST:  And then --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Is that it?

 7             MS. WEST:  I'm sorry.  No.  There's 27, 28, 29.  This all regards

 8     the killing of Goran Zekic who the witness indicated was killed right

 9     before the attack on Glogova.  And that's all.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Twenty-seven to --

11             MS. WEST:  Twenty-nine.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Twenty-nine.  Killing of Goran Zekic.

13             MS. WEST:  And Glogova.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think one -- one way to

16     resolve this is looking at the substance.  Paragraphs 14 through 16 don't

17     seem to make the point that she was asking the witness to contradict,

18     that the paramilitaries were working without the -- or against the wishes

19     of the city, the municipal leaders.  That was her question essentially,

20     or that's his testimony that she's trying to contradict.  Those

21     paragraphs don't, to me, seem to directly go to that issue.

22             Similarly, paragraph 27 to 29, particularly paragraph 29, talks

23     about an attack against Glogova which is outside of the scope of the

24     examination.  And I don't believe would be permitted in any event.  And I

25     don't see anything in paragraphs 27 or 28 that's in any way inconsistent

Page 24445

 1     with the witness's testimony or that she couldn't ask him without

 2     reference to this document.  But, essentially, if you look at paragraph

 3     13 of the document, this is the tenor in which this witness was giving

 4     information during his plea agreement which he was attempting to

 5     negotiate for a good disposition of his case.  I don't think that

 6     having -- this is different than putting a witness statement to a

 7     witness.  This is material which has already been ruled will not be

 8     admissible because it would be unfair.  So to put it -- for the very

 9     negligible benefit that the Prosecution might get of showing this

10     document to the witness and asking questions based on this document given

11     the subject matters that she's identified, the prejudice to Dr. Karadzic

12     even from discussing this document outweighs any benefit.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Even if she were to now allow put questions about

14     paragraph 13.

15             Yes, Ms. West, would you like to reply if any?

16             MS. WEST:  Just briefly, Your Honour.  But in regard to 14, 15,

17     and 16, the witness had indicated that -- on page 23 today that no one

18     had advocated the expelling of Muslims, and I want to know a little bit

19     more about that.  And then very specifically the witness spoke about this

20     17 April rally or meeting - I'm not sure what it was called - of

21     volunteers who entered in Bratunac.  That is also mentioned here and I

22     want to see what he has to say about that.  I don't think this goes

23     beyond any -- any normal procedure by which we should be allowed to

24     develop subject matters that came up during cross-examination.  I just

25     happen to be using this piece of paper to do it.  If this were the

Page 24446

 1     statement of another witness or document I suspect I would be allowed to

 2     do that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And about Glogova?

 4             MS. WEST:  Sorry, yes.  The witness indicated that Glogova was in

 5     retaliation for the killing of Goran Zekic, and that's 27 -- well, that's

 6     talked about in 27, 28, and 29, and I wanted to know whether he had any

 7     more information about that.  He was -- he was brief about it but he

 8     spoke about Glogova.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. West, the fact that the material was already

11     ruled inadmissible would have no bearing at all on the situation?

12             MS. WEST:  I don't believe it would, Your Honour, because there

13     are times where we can show witnesses documents that are not the

14     witness's, that have nothing to do with the witness, and if it's relevant

15     and if he point something out on a document that helps him explain

16     something to the Trial Chamber, we would be allowed to do this.  I agree

17     this has not been admitted by this Court, but it is perfectly relevant to

18     what he brought up on cross-examination and, again, I'm not asking for

19     its admission.  I'm asking it to be used as an aid to elicit more

20     testimony on these subject matters.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  But, Mr. President, think about if you had

22     excluded an involuntary confession of a suspect.  Ms. West could make the

23     same argument:  While would not being admitted into evidence, I just want

24     to see what the witness says about it.  That wouldn't hold.  This is a

25     situation where you have information which you ruled is not fair to be

Page 24447

 1     presented to the trier of fact, or to be introduced at the trial.  And

 2     she's really just using this as a vehicle for introducing something that

 3     you've already ruled should be excluded.  She can put her questions about

 4     this topic without reference to this document.  The fact that she's

 5     chosen to do it with this document is simply because she wants to get

 6     information that otherwise would not be able to be used.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it's necessary, yes.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I don't know how necessary it is.  I just -- I

 9     do need to point out that Mr. Robinson is conflating two issues and one

10     is the inadmissibility under Rule 95 which is -- which is a completely

11     different matter and entails different considerations to the Court in

12     terms of the use of the document, and the other is whether or not a

13     document is going to be admitted pursuant to Rule 92 which are quite

14     different consideration, so that's, I think, I -- it's important to point

15     that out and I'm sorry to take the Court's time any further with that.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  None of this would have arisen had Dr. Karadzic

17     not chosen to raise the issues in cross-examination, and a lawyer would

18     realise the consequences of that.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  By a majority decision, not including the

21     President, Judge Kwon, we take the view that the material can be utilised

22     to formulate a question but without the use of the document per se.

23             Now, Ms. West, do you need time to formulate your questions

24     without direct reference to the document?

25             MS. WEST:  No.

Page 24448

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let us bring in the witness.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, may I proceed?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

 6             MS. WEST:

 7        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I want to ask you some questions about the

 8     paramilitaries that you spoke about earlier who were in the area of

 9     Bratunac in 1992.  Do you know from where they came?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the sake of the

11     interpreters, please.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Serbia.

13             MS. WEST:

14        Q.   And do you know what their purpose was for coming?

15        A.   I don't.  They do.

16        Q.   And about how long were they there?

17        A.   Until they were killed.  None of them left alive.  They were

18     there at least a month.

19        Q.   And before they arrived, before that month as compared to after

20     that month, had a number of Muslim people left the area?

21        A.   Yes, they did.

22        Q.   Now, you also spoke about April 17th.  I think you said you were

23     in town and at the Hotel Fontana, and you saw a number of these

24     volunteers.  You indicated that you saw Deronjic there as well.  Do you

25     remember that?

Page 24449

 1        A.   I do.  In front of the shopping centre at the entrance.  Deronjic

 2     was there with a lot of other people, mostly Muslims.  The volunteers

 3     were on the Hotel Fontana terrace in a line of about 30 to 40 metres.

 4        Q.   And you spoke about an interaction between Deronjic and I thought

 5     what I understood was a Muslim person.  Did you see Deronjic speak to any

 6     of these paramilitaries at all?  Excuse me, strike that.  I think I

 7     misspoke.

 8             You spoke about Deronjic speaking to a person who lived in the

 9     town.  My question is:  Did you see Deronjic speak to any of the

10     paramilitaries?

11        A.   I did not.

12        Q.   And do you -- do you -- how long were you in that area?

13        A.   You mean when I saw -- 10 to 15 minutes.

14        Q.   Okay.  And after 10 to 15 minutes then did you leave?

15        A.   I went away, probably home.

16        Q.   Now, you also on cross-examination spoke about a number of

17     incidents where the -- these volunteers were -- were harassing Muslims.

18     You also mentioned Serbs.  Do you know of any specific incidences of

19     intimidation or killing of the Bosnian Muslims by these volunteers?

20        A.   There were such instances, yes.

21        Q.   And as a result of that, did a number of Bosnian Muslims flee

22     from the municipality of Bratunac?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, I have an intervention for

24     the transcript.  The interpretation was that there was a lot of that,

25     whereas the witness said "there was that."  [In English] It would be more

Page 24450

 1     properly could be translated:  There were those kind of things happening.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Mr. Davidovic, could you repeat your

 3     answer to the question whether you knew of any specific incidences of

 4     intimidation or killing of the Bosnian Muslims by these volunteers.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It started -- they began coming to

 6     people's homes, bringing them to the school, mistreating them, robbing

 7     them.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I will ask the CLSS to -- to hear again

 9     what witness said in line 8 of page 91.

10             Having said that, let's continue.

11             MS. WEST:

12        Q.   And so my question is:  As a result of that, did a number of

13     Bosnian Muslims flee from the municipality of Bratunac?

14        A.   Definitely.

15        Q.   Now, you also spoke about the killing of Goran Zekic, which

16     happened in May, May 8th of 1992, and you spoke about -- that he was --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   That he was a well respected man.  He was beloved by the

19     community.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, do you know whether later that same day there was any

22     meeting of the Bratunac Crisis Staff?

23        A.   I wouldn't know because I did not take part in the work of either

24     the Crisis Staff or politics at that time. Probably yes, but I am unaware

25     of it.  It seems logical that it was held, because Goran was not

Page 24451

 1     just anybody.  Along with Deronjic, he was the top person in the

 2     region.  He used to be an MP and a municipal court judge before the war.

 3     He was held in high esteem and respected by both the Serbs and the

 4     Muslims.  The Muslims respected him too until this happened.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Another intervention.  It's not

 6     that they took his opinion into account, but they had a high

 7     esteem for him.  The witness could be asked what he meant.  Did he

 8     actually mean that they respected him?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's precisely what I

10     meant, held in high esteem, well respected.  They appreciated his

11     professionalism, intelligence, loyalty, et cetera.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's sufficient for you to raise a

13     certain issue with respect to interpretation.  The CLSS will take a look

14     into the matter again.

15             Let's proceed.

16             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Sir, today at page 28, you said that the Glogova attack -- you

18     said Glogova was in response to -- to the Goran Zekic killing.  Do you

19     remember that?  Do you remember saying that today?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   How do you know that?

22        A.   Well, I know that from talking to Deronjic.

23        Q.   Is it possible that the Glogova operation had been planned in

24     advance and it was just accelerated by the Zekic killing?

25        A.   It could be put that way.

Page 24452

 1             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I'm finished with these particular

 2     questions, and I just have one more brief area.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MS. WEST:

 5        Q.   Sir, today, beginning at about page 60, you were talking about

 6     Rajko Dukic, who was a gentleman from Milici, and there was a discussion

 7     about the buses showing up on July 13th in Bratunac.  And that Deronjic

 8     was angry because he thought Dukic was trying to -- I think what you

 9     said, take the burden off his back and put it on someone else's back.  Do

10     you remember that testimony?

11        A.   I do.  But that was on the 12th, that with the buses, not the

12     13th.

13        Q.   Okay.  But is it your remember -- excuse me.  Is it your memory

14     that the buses left the next morning, whatever day it was?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, you also said today at page 58 that after you had this

17     discussion with Deronjic, you said:

18             "Miroslav, try to use your contacts with the government or the

19     president and have the bus and the people taken out of Bratunac."

20             Now, when you said "the president, "you meant Mr. Karadzic;

21     correct?

22        A.   Now that -- did I mean him in particular?  Well, I meant the top

23     of the party itself and of government.  The top people with whom he

24     communicated, with the top people in the political party and in

25     government, because he's the only one of us who had this communication

Page 24453

 1     with them.

 2        Q.   Well, the top -- the top would be Mr. Karadzic, would it not?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  That's the second

 4     leading question in a row.  I object to that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Davidovic, who was that, the top person?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President Radovan Karadzic.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I don't have any further questions.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Ms. West, do you have the indictment

10     with you?  No?  Indictment against Mr. Karadzic.

11             Schedule E lists various Srebrenica killings.  Number 15.1,

12     page 23 refers to killing of 50 or more Bosnian Muslim men inside and

13     outside the Vuk Karadzic elementary school and in the surrounding area.

14             What killings do these refer to, just roughly?  Killing out --

15     inside, outside the Vuk Karadzic elementary school and in the surrounding

16     area, what does -- what do you mean "in the surrounding area?"

17             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, may I get back to you?  I want to be

18     absolutely specific about that.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, I'm asking because to know -- in order to know

20     whether the victims of these incident, Schedule 15.1, would include

21     Mr. Rasid Sinanovic whom Mr. Davidovic referred to.

22             MS. WEST:  That particular example, no, it would not.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I won't pose a question about that.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Then, Mr. Davidovic, unless my colleagues have a

Page 24454

 1     question for you, your evidence is concluded.  On behalf of this

 2     Trial Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I thank you for your coming to

 3     The Hague to give it, and I also would like to commend your decision to

 4     give evidence in public.  I hope everything is well with you, and please

 5     have a safe journey back home.  Thank you again.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope so too.  Thank you as well.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So, Ms. West, I take it that his previous testimony

 9     can be admitted publicly in its entirety.

10             MS. WEST:  We are still grappling about that, and if I could just

11     have until tomorrow morning to give you an answer or our position on

12     that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We discussed a lot of portions publicly, which

14     were discussed in private session in the previous case.

15             MS. WEST:  I think the only issue is that the -- or the only

16     question would be that the Appeals Chamber did not -- there is no order

17     that specifically allows that transcript to be open, and that's why I

18     pause.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Is it practicable to continue with the

20     next witness?  Is he waiting outside?  Yes.  Then let's bring him in.

21             So the next witness is Mr. Katanic, and he's going to testify

22     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Katanic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 24455

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Would you take the solemn declaration, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  MILENKO KATANIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 7             Yes, Ms. West.

 8             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 90304, please.

 9                           Examination by Ms. West:

10        Q.   Sir, what is your name?

11        A.   Yes?  My name is Milenko Katanic.

12        Q.   Where were you born?

13        A.   I was born in Bratunac.

14        Q.   And where do you live now?

15        A.   I live in Bratunac now as well.

16        Q.   Sir, an amalgamated statement was prepared containing relevant

17     portions of your OTP statement from November 2008 and your OTP interview

18     from May 2011, and this statement, which is on the screen before you now,

19     is this the one you reviewed and signed in October of 2011?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   When I reviewed this statement with you a few days ago, you noted

22     to me a correction you wanted to make; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And specifically, that correction was related to paragraph 26,

25     which regarded the events in Glogova in May of 1992.  That's

Page 24456

 1     paragraph 26.  And you said that you could not characterise or describe

 2     those events as a "attack."  You said it was an operation to surround

 3     Glogova and disarm the people.  The operation was done to disarm the

 4     village of Glogova.

 5             Now, sir, with that correction in place, can you confirm that the

 6     statement otherwise accurately reflects an amalgamation of the

 7     information you provided the Prosecution?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And if you were asked today about the same matters contained in

10     the statement, would you provide the same information to the

11     Trial Chamber?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would tender the statement, and at

14     this point I think there are only six associated exhibits.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Let's -- let us admit the statement first.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4374, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure he -- what he said about 65 ter 23556

18     in -- in paragraph 100.

19             MS. WEST:  I can address that with him if you allow me.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Except for that, are there any objections,

21     Mr. Robinson?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, and we also don't object to

23     adding some of these documents to the list.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  So all the other associated exhibits

25     will be admitted and be given number in due course.

Page 24457

 1             Yes, Ms. West.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  If I may read a summary.

 3             Milenko Katanic was born in Bratunac, continuing to live and work

 4     there throughout the war.  He attended the first meeting of the initial

 5     board of the SDS in Bratunac on August 8, 1990, along with 50 other

 6     distinguished locals from Bratunac.  At that meeting, Miroslav Deronjic

 7     was elected president, and Mr. Katanic was elected treasurer.

 8             In the lead-up to the war, Mr. Katanic remained a faithful member

 9     of the SDS.  He was present when the local Crisis Staff was formed as

10     directed in Variants A and B and during this time there was always

11     someone present at the Bratunac SDS offices, whether day or night.  This

12     was ordered by the instructions of December 19th so that if anything bad

13     happened the local office could alert other SDS members.

14             On 24 February, 1992, he attended a meeting of the

15     Municipal Board, and at the meeting Miroslav Deronjic told the SDS

16     members that they had to move on to level two of the instructions into

17     the state of emergency.  He told them Bratunac had to implement level two

18     because it was an order.

19             Katanic noted that in April 1992, despite the Crisis Staff of

20     Bratunac issuing a general order on disarmament, in practice only the

21     Muslims were being disarmed.  Previously, Miroslav Deronjic and the SDS

22     had armed the Serb population of Bratunac.  Mr. Katanic himself had

23     received a rifle.

24             The decision on the operation on the Muslim village of Glogova

25     was made before the death of Goran Zekic.  Mr. Katanic thinks that

Page 24458

 1     Zekic's death accelerated the date of the attack.  The operation itself

 2     was planned earlier.  As a member of the TO, the witness participated in

 3     the operation, and from the way the operation unfolded, Mr. Katanic

 4     realised that all parts of the TO and other formations had their own

 5     tasks and assignments, working in co-ordination on Glogova.  He agrees

 6     that the action like those in Glogova and Suha could be concluded to be

 7     forcible displacement of the Muslim population.

 8             In 1993, Mr. Katanic became the technical secretary of the

 9     Bratunac SDS and worked in the party office.  He was present at meetings

10     with Deronjic following the fall of Srebrenica in 1995.  And in fact,

11     through the lead-up to the war and during it, Mr. Katanic and Deronjic

12     remained close friends.

13             On July 11th, 1995, Deronjic called Katanic and told him about

14     Deronjic's appointment by Karadzic as civilian commissioner for

15     Srebrenica.  Deronjic called Mr. Katanic into his office and told him to

16     organise a meeting with Serb representatives from Srebrenica who were on

17     the SDS board.  Mr. Katanic brought them together for this meeting at the

18     SDS office, and Deronjic informed everyone that he had been appointed

19     commissioner.

20             At this meeting where Mr. Katanic was present, Deronjic spoke to

21     Karadzic on the phone.  The call was put on speaker phone so everyone

22     present could hear.  Karadzic said, "Miroslav, you are directly

23     responsible with your life for all civilian affairs in Srebrenica.  Your

24     people will be directly responsible to you."  Deronjic turned to the SDS

25     members present, including Mr. Katanic, and said, "You have the same

Page 24459

 1     responsibilities to me as I have to Karadzic."

 2             On the days following the fall the Srebrenica, Mr. Katanic saw

 3     Momir Nikolic and Dragomir Vasic at the SDS office in Bratunac.  They

 4     were present on the 12th and other days afterward.  When they arrived on

 5     the 12th, Deronjic was also present and the three men talked.

 6             Mr. Katanic was present for several phone calls between Deronjic

 7     and Karadzic at this time, and Deronjic had almost daily telephone

 8     communications with Karadzic, both from the SDS office and elsewhere.  He

 9     would often comment that he spoke with Karadzic about current events --

10     with Deronjic, that is.  Deronjic had a custom of saying to the wider

11     public, "I spoke with Karadzic today."  This was true throughout the

12     period in July from the beginning of the Srebrenica operation through

13     Karadzic's visit to Srebrenica later in 1995.

14             Specifically, Mr. Katanic thinks that Deronjic reported to

15     Karadzic the killings on -- of July 13th at the Kravica warehouse.  From

16     Mr. Katanic's understanding, based on as much as he knew about Deronjic,

17     Deronjic would have reported that.  Mr. Katanic himself thinks that he

18     heard about the Kravica warehouse killings from Deronjic on the evening

19     of the 13th.  And Katanic was told by Deronjic about Muslim prisoners

20     brought from Milici and other municipalities to Bratunac.  Deronjic had a

21     conversation about these prisoners with Colonel Beara.

22             Katanic saw Beara in the SDS office on the night of the 13th,

23     making several phone calls.  He was giving orders to lower officers

24     talking about fuel.  The next day Katanic saw Beara leave Deronjic's

25     office.  Deronjic told Katanic that Beara had earlier commanded his

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 1     subordinates to search for places in Bratunac to imprison Muslims from

 2     Srebrenica.  There were so many prisoners that Bratunac was unable to

 3     hold them all.

 4             Mr. Katanic thinks that Deronjic and Karadzic worked together to

 5     relocate the prisoners from Bratunac so they would not be killed there.

 6             When Karadzic came to visit Srebrenica in August of 1995,

 7     Karadzic and Deronjic had a meeting together.

 8             Your Honour, that would be the summary.

 9        Q.   Mr. Katanic, when did you first meet Miroslav Deronjic?

10        A.   Miroslav Deronjic was my age, so I had known him since childhood.

11     We were friends when we were children.  We are of the same age.  We went

12     to school together, and when we grew up, we shared the same hobbies.  We

13     went fishing at the Drina.  We played cards.  So you can say that I knew

14     him all my life.

15        Q.   And how close was your relationship?

16        A.   Well, we were quite close.  You can say that we were friends.

17        Q.   And how often did the two of you speak?

18        A.   Well, these were not any kind of official talks.  We talked in

19     our free time as two friends who socialised.

20        Q.   Was there any particular place that the two of you frequented

21     together to talk?

22        A.   In 1992, I opened a cafe that was called Caesar in January.  That

23     was the place where we would met the most often and socialise.  We spent

24     our free time there.  In the evening when we were free, we would always

25     meet up there and exchange views.

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 1        Q.   And prior to your opening of that cafe, where did you meet before

 2     that?  Was there another place?

 3        A.   Well, in the summer, usually it was the motel by the Drina.  In

 4     wintertime and in the evenings, at the Fontana Hotel.

 5        Q.   Did you know his family?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And did he know yours?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Sir, do you have a nickname?

10        A.   Well, I do.  Mikan is my nickname.  However, I have a nickname

11     that only three persons have ever used, my mother, Deronjic, and that

12     meant a great deal to me.  They called me Mice.  The third person who

13     used that nickname was a neighbour.  That is the nickname that was used

14     by people to whom I was really close in their hearts.  That was my

15     understanding of it.

16             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I wonder if this might be a good time

17     to stop.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             Mr. Katanic, we'll adjourn for today and resume tomorrow at 9.00.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.58 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day

23                           of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.