120224IT

Page 25185

1 Drina Corps command to the VRS Main Staff, this same date?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. EDGERTON: Could that be a Prosecution exhibit, please.

5 JUDGE KWON: Same objection?

6 MR. ROBINSON: No, we don't object to this, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be next Prosecution exhibit.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4464, Your Honours.

9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Nothing further from me, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Could the Registrar approach the Bench.

11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Then back to you, Mr. Karadzic.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

14 Good morning to everyone.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Yesterday we were talking about reports and my question is, in

19 the Tolimir case at page 11971, you said the following: You said that

20 frequently subordinate commanders would sometimes intentionally fail to

21 portray the situation accurately. For example, if they'd lost a zone or

22 if there was an action that they didn't take. Sometimes this was

23 intentional. Sometimes it was accidental. Do you stand by that

24 testimony today, and do you agree that there are few who would have

25 provided information on their failures in the hope that they would

Page 25186

1 correct their failures by the time the next report was due?

2 A. Yes. Such things did occur.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the

4 Croatian intercepts. I think it's a 65 ter document 035 -- 35042.

5 Page 234.

6 Could it be enlarged, please, in the Serbian version.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. General, could you please read through the Serbian version.

9 No, the Serbian text isn't the right one. 234. Yes, now we have

10 it.

11 General, in spite of all our protective measures, the Croats

12 recorded every word we said, so please have a look at this intercept of

13 my conversation with the colonel at the time and later General Tomanic.

14 It's dated the 11th of August, 1992. Could you please read it.

15 A. The 11th of August, 1992, 0720 hours, 18562, Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina.

17 "We learned the following from the conversation between Karadzic

18 Tomanic which was conducted at 003 [as interpreted] hours. We --"

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, did you mean to ask him to read it

20 aloud?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since I saw that we have the

22 translation, he doesn't have to read it out aloud. He can just read --

23 read it to himself and tell us what he knows about this and what he

24 thinks about this. Then I'll put my question to him. He doesn't have to

25 read it out aloud provided that the translation is accurate.

Page 25187

1 JUDGE KWON: So, General Obradovic, when you're done with your

2 reading, could you let us know so that Mr. Karadzic can put a question to

3 you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that General Obradovic

5 might start suffering from seasickness given the way the text is being

6 moved around.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

9 MS. EDGERTON: I think, from reading the intercept, that the date

10 of the intercept is actually incorrect, the year, that is. I think this

11 is an intercept from 1993, 11 August 1993, rather than 11 August 1992. I

12 say that purely on the basis of the content.

13 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that that is the case,

15 because the crisis concerns Igman and Bjelasnica, those areas, and that

16 was in 1993.

17 JUDGE KWON: So have you read this intercept, General? Yes,

18 Mr. Karadzic, what is your --

19 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's

21 answer.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've read it.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you, General. Please, neglect or ignore the swear words I

25 used in anger, only related to the soldiers, I believe, but do you agree

Page 25188

1 that this corresponds to what you were saying in the case of

2 General Tolimir? You were saying that these reports might not be

3 complete, that they weren't always helpful, and that there were reasons

4 for me to be dissatisfied.

5 A. Yes. The contents of this intercept does prove that.

6 Q. Thank you. General, do you agree that especially the first year

7 or the first two years of war, I had too much trust in foreigners and

8 sometimes I wasn't fair towards our generals and took what foreign people

9 told me to be true, whereas that was not always correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could this page be

12 admitted into evidence. MFI, of course.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Ms. Edgerton, do you have any observation?

14 Did you want to say something?

15 MS. EDGERTON: I suspect there maybe a practice in place that I

16 haven't followed because I haven't appeared before Your Honours lately,

17 but I was just querying why this should be marked for identification when

18 Dr. Karadzic confirmed the date and is one of the participants.

19 JUDGE KWON: Did he testify? So we'll deal with it at one go

20 later on. Let us mark it for identification as a D exhibit.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D2091, Your Honours.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I hope that the other

23 participants will also forgive me for the vocabulary I used, but that is

24 a male and military vocabulary.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25189

1 Q. General, in the Popovic case you also described an event when you

2 saw that something had been incorrectly portrayed. It has to do with

3 your meeting with the Lieutenant Djordjevic. Could you repeat that for

4 our benefit? You saw, as did others, that reports were not always

5 accurate because people would omit to report on matters that might have

6 an unfavourable effect on them?

7 A. Yes, I do remember that, in that case, there was a discussion on

8 the value of reports and the document from the Chief of Staff in which he

9 warned units about the quality of reports.

10 Q. I apologise, but for the benefit of the participants, I would

11 like to say that it's in the Popovic case, and the pages are 28275 and

12 28276.

13 A. I mentioned an example, because up until the 1st of September,

14 1994, I was in Posavina and to the south, in the area of Teslic, on the

15 slopes of Vlasic, and in that area that lieutenant, not Djordjevic but

16 Boro Djurdjevic, he went to Crna Rijeka. He met me. I asked him, What's

17 going on in your area? And he then said that Djukici and Panici had

18 fallen. He mentioned other names of Serbian villages to the south of

19 Blatnica. He said, Everything's gone. And I said, Don't fabricate these

20 things, I've read a report from the 1st Krajina Corps last night. He

21 stood by his claims.

22 I conveyed this information to General Miletic. And some time

23 later the Chief of Staff called me. General Miletic was with him

24 already. I realised that he had told him what I had told him. He called

25 Tolimir and asked him to check this. In front of us he called the chief

Page 25190

1 of security of the 1st Krajina Corps, Colonel Stevo Bogojevic, and asked

2 him whether it was correct that those villages and that that area had

3 fallen into Muslim hands. He said yes, and General Tolimir then told him

4 to write a report for him. He said, Well, I can't because of the boss,

5 and his boss was the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps. That's what I

6 said in the Popovic case.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you remember an incident when there was some sort

8 of a parade of our soldiers and they were within the range of their

9 multiple-rocket launchers, and one of their rockets killed 11 of our

10 soldiers somewhere near Donji Vakuf?

11 A. Yes. The commander of the light brigade had lined up the troops

12 for some sort of a ceremony, and the area where he had them lined up was

13 within the range of the mortars or of the artillery, and they were then

14 targeted by the artillery and sustained these losses.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that we did not lodge a protest

16 because it was legitimate?

17 A. I am not aware of us having protested.

18 Q. Thank you. However, do you remember that I received a report on

19 this in 11 days' time. Every day they informed me of one person who had

20 killed [as interpreted]. If they had informed me in one day, I would

21 have had to launch an investigation. Isn't that correct?

22 A. I don't know. At the time I wasn't in the Main Staff.

23 Q. Thank you. But as far as you know, Ms. Edgerton asked you about

24 reports sent to the Main Staff and asked you how the essence of the

25 reports was conveyed by using the same words in reports sent to me. Do

Page 25191

1 you agree that reports from -- or there are brigade reports sent to

2 corps. In the corps you just have the essence which is then conveyed to

3 the Main Staff. In the Main Staff, they also abbreviate these reports

4 and send the essence of the reports to me and to other addresses, to the

5 government, to the ministry and so on.

6 A. Yes, but this isn't from the brigade. The brigades receive

7 reports from their subordinated units. They then edit them and send them

8 as a single report from that brigade to the corps command. In the corps

9 command, all the reports from brigades, regiments and independent

10 battalions are put into a more succinct form and sent to the Main Staff.

11 And in the Main Staff, on the basis of all the reports received from the

12 corps, from the aircraft unit, the anti-aircraft unit, the HQ support

13 units and so on and so forth, we then send a report to the president and

14 to all the addresses referred to in the reports.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.

16 A couple of matters, Mr. Tieger and Ms. Edgerton. I wonder if I

17 was clear enough that Mr. Milovanovic does not need to be brought in

18 today.

19 And second thing, one of the associated exhibits is an intercept.

20 I forgot to say that that will be marked for identification as well.

21 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Am I correct in saying that if every piece of paper were to reach

24 me which had to do with reports of that day, it would be quite a sizable

25 pile, up to 1.000 pages, taking into account all the information, whereas

Page 25192

1 the two or three pages I received from the Main Staff basically contained

2 the gist of all the pages produced from the level of companies up to

3 brigades and so on.

4 In your assessment, how many pages would that be for the entire

5 army?

6 A. It would be an enormous amount. If we bear in mind that each

7 corps had 10 brigades on average times the number of pages needed for

8 their reports, it would be an enormous number.

9 Q. Thank you. Can we then say that this pyramid has its base in the

10 lowest-ranking units and the peak is in the Main Staff. And the

11 president, who received even less material than the Main Staff, the

12 president only received two or three pages of the summaries of all the

13 reporting that had been done.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 11, I said "taking into

17 account all the formations of our army" and not "all information." Thank

18 you.

19 Could we next see P3035. Perhaps this was not announced, but we

20 realise there was a need for us to show it. In any case, it is a

21 P exhibit.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Do you agree, General, that the date is the 15th of June. It is

24 a decision on the formation, organisation, as well command and control of

25 the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is dated the

Page 25193

1 15th of June 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you agree that as of that date the armed forces were official

4 in terms of their existence?

5 A. Yes. This was the decision which established the armed forces.

6 Q. Thank you. Please look at the document itself. When you're done

7 with the first page, do tell us so that we can move on to the next.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go straight to item 6. I

9 believe it will be enough for the General to answer my question.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you agree that the commander of the Main Staff is hereby

12 authorised to determine close organisation and establishment of units

13 depending on conditions and circumstances?

14 A. Yes. That's what item 6 of this decision says.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Can we go back to item 4 which was on the first page -- no.

17 Sorry.

18 Can we agree that this is my signature and stamp from the period?

19 A. Yes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have item 4 on the other

21 page. I don't know where it is in English though.

22 Please look at item 4.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: If the accused is going to

24 read, please wait for the English translation. Thank you.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25194

1 Q. "The control and command of operative groups in the front shall

2 be performed by the Main Staff of the Army of the SR of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina which shall be directly subordinated to the president [as

4 interpreted] of the SR of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

5 A. That's what it says.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the Presidency of the SR of Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina as a collective presidential body retained only the

8 strategic level of command within its remit?

9 A. Yes, that's the conclusion of this provision.

10 Q. General, sir, are you familiar with any single case in which the

11 Main Staff received some information about crimes and that it was kept by

12 the Main Staff without it being forwarded to the president or, later on,

13 Presidency?

14 A. I'm not familiar with that.

15 Q. I am reading the interpretation of my question. Would the

16 Main Staff keep anything secret if they received such information from

17 the field? In other words, if they received such information, they would

18 report on it; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Is it possible, in keeping with what you have said so

21 far, that someone from the field could avoid communicating information

22 about his or her mistake to a higher level?

23 A. There is such a possibility.

24 JUDGE KWON: General Obradovic, you may help us, the Chamber, in

25 this regard. You confirmed that the Presidency retained only the

Page 25195

1 strategic level of command within its remit. What does it mean in

2 concrete terms? What other levels of command were there?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is the strategic,

4 operational, and tactical level.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could you explain the difference of those

6 levels.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corps are at the operational

8 level. They make operational decisions, whereas brigades and

9 lower-ranking units are at the tactical level. The strategic level is at

10 the state level.

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

12 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Or to be even more accurate, General, do we agree that the state,

15 for example, decides on its strategic position to defend this or that or

16 to achieve this or that, whereas all operational and tactical matters are

17 in the hands of the military profession?

18 A. Yes. All operational and tactical activities are joined

19 ultimately in a strategic project or collection of plans which need to be

20 implemented.

21 Q. Thank you, General. We need to go back to 1992. When the war

22 broke out, you were in Derventa; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There you commanded a garrison, or were you a member of the

25 garrison command?

Page 25196

1 A. The brigade command where I was was part of the garrison brigade.

2 Q. Is it correct, General, that at the time in Derventa, you as the

3 JNA had a very difficult time even before the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina

4 broke out?

5 A. Yes. I frequently referred to that period just before the war as

6 being more difficult than the war itself.

7 Q. Could we say that it was because your hands were tied and because

8 you were caught in a crossfire, so to speak, between the Serb territorial

9 forces and the Croatian Army which was present there? Can you describe

10 briefly the situation for us?

11 A. The last or third stage of the Jedinstvo plan envisaged that the

12 units of the 17th Corps, which was headquartered in Tuzla and included

13 the area south of the Sava River, including mine -- my brigade, be that

14 all such units be made part of the R classification. The -- my command

15 was also the garrison command, which means that it dealt with general

16 logistical matters for the 18th Partisan Brigade and its command, which

17 was also part of the R classification group. We also took care of the

18 mixed anti-armour brigade, which was a front line unit or a combat unit.

19 In other words, we did not have many soldiers at our disposal, whereas we

20 had to secure all depots of supplies, ammunition, and other war assets.

21 At the time, the political leadership of the HDZ and the SDA, based on

22 certain requests from the Republic of Croatia, tried to exert influence

23 over members of their ethnic communities in order for them not to respond

24 to any draft calls to the units of the JNA.

25 Running in parallel, there were more and more occurrences of

Page 25197

1 Croats, Serbs, and Muslims arming themselves.

2 Q. Thank you, General. Could we have 1D5131. It is your document

3 to the Secretariat for National Defence. While we are waiting for it,

4 General, do we agree that the municipal national defence secretaries were

5 bodies or organs of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence in

6 municipalities?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall this document of yours from 1991? It is in early

9 1991. The Yugoslav Presidency was concerned over different formations

10 and demanded that they be controlled. Can you tell us what is the gist

11 of the document?

12 A. Well, the gist is that there were concerns that TO weapons would

13 be taken as it was a component of the armed forces comprising the JNA and

14 the TO. The TO was under the remit of the republican defence organs, and

15 in a way the TO was a people's army. Wherever in any given municipality

16 there were political leaders and a majority of the population belonging

17 to a single ethnic group, they tried to take such assets for themselves.

18 Q. So already in April 1991, there was a need to order the

19 disbanding of all units which were not part of the regular armed forces.

20 A. Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2092, Your Honours.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25198

1 Q. General, you were aware, were you not, that such illegal

2 paramilitary formations were being formed, especially the

3 Patriotic League and the Green Berets? You discussed the issue of the

4 Patriotic League in General Tolimir's trial, which is 65 ter 23610, on

5 page 129.

6 A. Yes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 35042, page 24.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in, please.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we enlarge the image for the

10 General.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Can you read this? We see your name as well. On the

13 4th of April, 1992, it seems --

14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. English page shows the previous

15 document that we saw earlier on.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We need this page, page 24, I

17 believe. The date is the 4th of April.

18 There seems to be no translation.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you agree that we see here there were already problems in

21 certain municipalities and barricades in places such as Kulina and

22 elsewhere? Is it correct --

23 JUDGE KWON: So there is no English translation for this. Then

24 collapse, yes, the English page. Please continue.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25199

1 Q. Can you remember what happened on the 4th of April when these

2 problems occurred? The barricades were set up by the HDZ government, and

3 they prevented you from functioning normally. There was also mortar fire

4 on the Vuk Karadzic Street. Isn't that correct?

5 A. Yes. The date here is the 4th of April, 1300 hours.

6 Colonel Stublincevic was the Chief of Staff of the 17th Corps and he was

7 also the deputy. General Janko Sava's deputy. Here he is speaking to

8 Captain First Class Nedeljko Stajcic because I was absent and he was

9 replacing me at that time.

10 Q. Thank you. Could we have a look at page 19.

11 On the 23rd of March, 1992, Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Abdic were in

12 Bosanski Brod because there was a crisis there too.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please remember these page

14 numbers because I will later request that they be marked for

15 identification.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. The 23rd of March is the date.

18 A. This is the 27th of March.

19 Q. Well, we can look at this too. Do you remember the massacre in

20 the Sijekovac village?

21 A. Yes. And on that occasion, the republican leadership went with

22 Franjo Boras, Dr. Biljana Plavsic, and Fikret Abdic. There was another

23 man with them whose surname was Isak. I don't know what his position

24 was.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 25200

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this page also be remembered.

2 We'll be tendering it later.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, I have difficulty understanding the

4 relevance of these lines of questions. Why -- in particular why

5 Mr. Karadzic needed intercepts to put these questions while complaining

6 about the shortage of time.

7 MR. ROBINSON: I think he's best placed to answer that,

8 Mr. President.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Karadzic, we'll mark them for

10 identification, but I urge you to concentrate on more -- more the

11 critical, the important issues to the case.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I fully agree with

13 you, but I want to establish the context for my next questions about our

14 relationship with the Muslims and Croats regardless of what was happening

15 to us. I'll skip a lot of questions.

16 Could we see page 67 of this very same document.

17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, before --

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

19 MS. EDGERTON: Before or while we're waiting for that to come up,

20 I wonder if Dr. Karadzic can help us out a little bit. He referred the

21 General to page 129 of the General's Tolimir testimony saying that he had

22 discussed the issue of the Patriotic League there, and I've got page 129

23 from e-court in front of me and it's a recounting of a farewell party for

24 General Zivanovic on the 20th of July, 1995.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 25201

1 MS. EDGERTON: So maybe we could just find out what he was

2 referring to.

3 JUDGE KWON: But all that was referred to was Patriotic League,

4 so I just let it go.

5 But be precise in giving the reference, Mr. Karadzic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In this case, I couldn't have been

7 more precise. 12, 12, 9. Twelve a hundred and twenty-nine. After 1200

8 onwards.

9 JUDGE KWON: Probably it was interpretation, but let us continue.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Is the presence of the 108th Brigade from the Croatian Army

12 mentioned here on the 15th of April?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let's have a look at page 32. It's probably 32. Something seems

15 to have got a bit confused. Do you remember Cardak? What is Cardak?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 80, please. Page 80.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cardak is a settlement within the

18 Derventa area.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Could you tell us here who the Black Shirts, and what is being

21 announced here?

22 A. Some Croatian Army units had black uniforms, and the people would

23 therefore call them the Black Shirts.

24 Q. Were you familiar with these Black Shirts, and from which war,

25 which units?

Page 25202

1 A. Yes, from the Second World War. The Jure Francetic Legion from

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina was well known.

3 Q. Could we read this out.

4 A. "On the 24th of April, 1992, 21769, from a conversation of the

5 Black Shirts we have discovered that this evening they will carry out a

6 massacre in the Cardak settlement in the Derventa area. This is what

7 Junak said." Junak must be a code-name.

8 Q. Thank you. Could we see page 83, please.

9 Can you find your name here where it says that Colonel --

10 Lieutenant-Colonel Obradovic wasn't familiar with Cardak. No. 83 is

11 still about Cardak. And the event that already happened is being

12 described here. Isn't that correct?

13 Had that massacre already taken place in Cardak as the Croatian

14 Secret Service said on the basis of intercepted conversations?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So does that show that they did not inform General Bobetko about

17 the matter and the massacre wasn't prevented?

18 A. As soon as they had information in advance, they didn't prevent

19 this. I don't know whether it's a matter of not reporting or someone's

20 intention.

21 Q. Thank you. Could we see page 85, please.

22 This is the last one from this series. The 27th of April. Can

23 you see your name, your surname here somewhere?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It says that you were praised here. He was fighting to get the

Page 25203

1 people out of the village, and it says Obradovic wasn't familiar with the

2 situation. So we have to praise the man who was fighting to get them

3 out. So you directly saw that this massacre was perpetrated.

4 A. Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the pages that we

6 have just looked at admitted?

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber was concerned about the frequent usage

9 of untranslated documents, Mr. Karadzic, in addition to the concerns that

10 I expressed as to the relevance, but we'll mark them for identification.

11 We dealt with six pages in total. Page 24, 19, 64 -- 67, 80, 83, 85?

12 Sixty-seven was not used. So we'll mark those five pages for

13 identification.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this is 85, Your Excellency.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 85.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D2092, and a new 65 ter will be assigned

17 to this, and that will be 65 ter number 35042C.

18 JUDGE KWON: Could the Registrar approach the Bench.

19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I will get to the point. Very quickly, General, do you agree

23 that these crimes were perpetrated by paramilitary formations of

24 Bosnian-Herzegovinian Muslims and Croats and the regular Croatian Army,

25 the 108th Brigade, the Zenga, and so on and so forth.

Page 25204

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. However, in spite of this, General, is it correct that in your

3 area of responsibility there were several Muslim villages and settlements

4 that had remained peaceful and some even remained loyal to Yugoslavia and

5 the republic -- and Republika Srpska, and they participated as members in

6 the army and no one ever touched them? Is it correct that in your

7 municipality of Bosanski Dubocac -- well, that municipality was on good

8 terms with us, Bosanski Kobas as well, and there are some other villages

9 which were on good terms with us? Could you briefly and rapidly tell us

10 what the situation looked like?

11 A. Yes. In Dubocac it was divided. It was both a Muslim and Croat

12 village, but they were divided, the Muslims and Croats. Some of them

13 were in the HVO and others were in our army. The Omeragic village,

14 Turski Luzani, Turski Kalenderovci, these places were compact. They were

15 there throughout the war. And the unit that was with Croats and with

16 their men was called Mesa Selimovic. Its first commander was a reserve

17 major. His name was Ismet Dzuheric, and after Ismet Dzuheric, since he

18 went to Bosnian -- Bosanski Brod for work obligation purposes, well, he

19 was attacked in Sijekovac, in fact, when this attack was launched on

20 Sijekovac. It's the Brod municipality. Later it was the Reserve Major

21 Nusret Dizdarevic.

22 Q. Thank you. Let me assist the Chamber to understand this, because

23 on the basis of the names it won't be possible. Is it true that the

24 names of the villages you've mentioned are Muslim villages and these

25 commanders were Muslims?

Page 25205

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it correct that this gentleman Ismet Djukovic is now the

3 president of the Brod municipality in Republika Srpska?

4 A. Yes. He's involved in politics. I think he's a socialist. He's

5 not the president of the municipality. He's the president of the

6 Municipal Assembly in the Brod municipality.

7 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that Mesa Salipovic [as interpreted] is

8 a great Serbian writer who comes from a Muslim family?

9 A. Yes. He declared himself to be a Serbian writer. Ivo Andric is

10 declared to be a Croat.

11 Q. You'd say a Catholic not a Croat, in fact; isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes, a Catholic.

13 Q. Is it correct that we -- that the Serbs initially fled from

14 Derventa, they were driven out?

15 A. Given the presence of the Croatian Army, the HVO, and all other

16 paramilitary units, the Serbian population on the whole left Derventa

17 when the Republika Srpska Army was established after the JNA left on the

18 19th of May, when we consolidated and organised ourselves, and when

19 because of the blockade we had to open up a life-saving road on the

20 ground because we couldn't provide oxygen for the maternity ward in

21 Banja Luka via air, and as a result 12 babies died. Since that was the

22 situation, the 1st Krajina Corps planned an operation called Corridor and

23 we opened up a land corridor which reached as far as Bijeljina. We did

24 this by engaging our forces.

25 Q. And within that context, Derventa was liberated; isn't that

Page 25206

1 correct?

2 JUDGE KWON: Just put a pause between question and answer. Bear

3 in mind that this is also translated into French. Now you can proceed.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Within that operation was Derventa liberated? And is it correct

6 that after we entered Derventa, the Muslims remained in town? They went

7 on living there?

8 A. Yes. We entered Derventa and liberated it on the 4th of July,

9 1992. The Muslims remained with us. They continued to live there, as

10 did a number of Croats.

11 Q. General, sir, did you ever hear an order or intention or a wish

12 to the effect that there should be no Muslims and Croats in

13 Republika Srpska and that they should be expelled?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you. Thank you for telling us about 1992. I wanted you to

16 tell us about it because you were there on the spot.

17 Let us now go back to the question of reports. I would like to

18 put something to you, reports to the president in July 1995.

19 We reviewed about 162 reports from that period of time, and we

20 chose 23 that the Main Staff sent to the president of the republic at

21 this critical point in time.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could we now call up

23 65 ter 3848.

24 One hundred sixty-two until the end of my term of office, and in

25 July there were 23 of them, from the 1st of July onwards. So can we have

Page 25207

1 a look at this.

2 Can we please have paragraph 6 in this document.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. We agree that this is the 3rd of July; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Paragraph 6, please. Please focus on paragraph 6. Does it say

7 here that in the part of the front line facing the enclaves, the enemy

8 used PN and the situation in the Drina Corps is as follows --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we please have an

10 accurate reference. We cannot find this in the document.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do we see the paragraph you referred

13 to?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is paragraph 6. It has to do

15 with DK. That's the Drina Corps.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is (b).

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English it also moves on to the

18 next page. Well, yes. You can see part of it. Subparagraph (b),

19 visible targets.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Is it clear here, General, sir, that these were the objectives

22 from where fire was opened at us? Therefore, are these military

23 objectives?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Can the president conclude on the basis of this that

Page 25208

1 we have some offensive intentions?

2 A. No, except for the activity that is based on the words that there

3 should be an appropriate response.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this document be

5 admitted.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2094, Your Honours.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 65 ter 4019. Can we

9 have a look at that. That's the report on the next day.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. We do agree that this is the 4th of July, 1995; right? The

12 president of the republic, all corps. This is the usual kind of report;

13 right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Once again can we have paragraph 6 that has to do with the

16 Drina Corps. Please take a look at it. It is subparagraph (a), and

17 there is a reference to the enemy, and it says that there were no hostile

18 activities, and (b) says that the corps units are at a level of combat

19 readiness that was ordered. They are firmly holding on to the lines

20 reached, regrouping their forces in order to completely close off the

21 Srebrenica enclave.

22 General, sir, would you say that the question of defence

23 positions, is this military language that is purely defensive?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you agree, General, sir, that this is something that the

Page 25209

1 president of the republic could have known because that is what the

2 report said, that was the way in which the report was written and in no

3 other way; right?

4 A. That's right.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted as the next Defence

6 Exhibit.

7 THE REGISTRAR: D2095, Your Honours.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please have a

9 look at 65 ter 4111.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do we agree that this is also a regular daily report from the

12 5th of July, 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Can we go to paragraph 6 yet again. It always has to

15 do with the Drina Corps. In English it is page 3.

16 Subparagraph (a), it says that the enemy carried out intermittent

17 combat operations concentrating on the part of the front line that is

18 facing the enclaves, and from time to time intensified reconnaissance

19 activities, intermittently firing PAMs on our positions. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. And as for our corps, it says that they are highly

22 vigilant, that they are carrying out engineering works at positions and

23 setting up barricades.

24 Again, this is defensive activity?

25 A. Yes, engineering works at positions and setting up barricades.

Page 25210

1 Q. Thank you. General, if somebody is carrying out engineering

2 works at positions, is it not correct that then there is no intention to

3 advance, rather, the intention is to stay there?

4 A. Engineering works at positions means that optimal conditions are

5 created for activity and defence protection at that line that had been

6 reached.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted? Has it been

9 admitted?

10 JUDGE KWON: I don't think so. We'll admit it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2096, Your Honours.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have a look

13 at 65 ter 16542. I'm sorry, 3853.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do we agree that this is also the usual kind of comprehensive

16 daily report at the end of the day, the 6th of July, 1995?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Can we have paragraph 6 again. Could you please

19 focus on paragraph 6. It's the last sentence of subparagraph (a), it

20 says:

21 "In the Srebrenica enclave, it was noted that the enemy was

22 grouping and occasionally firing from infantry weapons on the units of

23 our units of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade."

24 And then there is also a reference further on that the forces had

25 been prepared and grouped for active combat operations towards the

Page 25211

1 enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa.

2 Do we agree, General, that it's only on the 6th that the corps

3 decides to respond more actively to these provocations?

4 A. Yes. Grouping and preparation for activity vis-a-vis the enclave

5 is referred to here specifically.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit D2097.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Although you were on sick leave, General, were you informed that

11 because of the Muslim offensive against Sarajevo, the 28th Division was

12 active in the area of Srebrenica in order to drag out our forces and to

13 keep the Drina Corps active in the enclave? I mean, so that the

14 Drina Corps could not help the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

15 A. It is customary in all armies, in order to mask one's true

16 intentions, what is done in particular areas where there are no serious

17 intentions, activities are intensified as well as provocations so that

18 the enemy forces would be tied there, and therefore they are rendered

19 unable to send more forces to an area where one does have the intention

20 of accomplishing an objective.

21 Q. Thank you. When you returned to the Main Staff, did you see for

22 yourself that from mid-June until the beginning of July the 28th Division

23 was involved in this kind of manoeuvre and operation of tying up our

24 forces?

25 A. Before I arrived, throughout the front line there were a few

Page 25212

1 neuralgic points. On the western side, in the 1st Corps, in the first

2 one in Vlasic, in the East Bosnian Corps around Lisica and -- actually

3 for a long period of time they had one of their companies encircled

4 there. Then the Hercegovina Corps had active operations from the plateau

5 Treskavica and so on. And in June from the enclaves of Zepa and

6 Srebrenica, nine sabotage groups were sent to an area that was in the

7 immediate vicinity of the Main Staff, and they endangered the Main Staff.

8 And the Communications Regiment and the 65th Regiment sustained heavy

9 losses.

10 Q. Thank you. Let us just be specific. Was my understanding

11 correct that at Lisica our company was encircled for a long time? And in

12 line 5, it seems as if it is their company.

13 A. No, it is the -- it is a company of the Eastern Bosnian Corps

14 that was encircled. It is one of our companies.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear

16 Mr. Karadzic's question.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do we agree that -- 4113, 65 ter, and there is a translation as

19 well.

20 Do we agree that this is also a regular report for the

21 7th of July, 1995?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we ask for paragraph 6 again. Could you please focus on the

24 last sentence -- well, actually focus on all of them, but the last one,

25 situation in the Srebrenica enclave, the enemy was involved in regrouping

Page 25213

1 and in Srebrenica, Zeleni Jadar they put up strong defence using all

2 available weapons.

3 And then the situation in the corps, subparagraph (b). There was

4 a selective response by hitting visible targets. The forces intended for

5 active combat operations in the front around Srebrenica have been unable

6 to carry out actions to date due to extremely stormy weather, and so on

7 and so forth.

8 Do you agree that the president has information stating that our

9 forces around Srebrenica are behaving in a regular fashion, that they are

10 opening selective fire at targets that have been observed, and that there

11 is nothing contained in this information that the president should find

12 alarming?

13 A. Yes. That is derived from the content of this text.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Obradovic, is this a regular report or an

17 interim report?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the beginning it

19 does say "regular report." It's the heading there. Actually, you can

20 display the front page again.

21 JUDGE KWON: So this bears the number 03/3-188, and the document

22 we saw earlier on before this document was -- did bear the number 187.

23 So we -- can we take it that this is the very next report that Main Staff

24 sent after the previous one?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. You can see from

Page 25214

1 the contents that it is a regular combat report and the numbers are

2 sequential, of course. With interim reports, it should be specified in

3 the title that it is interim.

4 JUDGE KWON: No. I was wondering whether there was a -- there

5 was an interim report between these two regular reports.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

7 JUDGE KWON: The interim report does not bear the sequential

8 number. Is that what you are saying?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps it was logged in the same

10 book, but the title would be "Interim Report," since there was a ledger

11 for all reports, a book for all reports.

12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, if this were indeed an interim report, would it contain

15 information about all the corps or would it only address certain

16 extraordinary events?

17 A. If it were an interim combat report, it would refer to a specific

18 area and event. It wouldn't refer to general information. It would,

19 rather, focus on an area and a unit.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted just before

21 the break?

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted as the next exhibit,

23 Exhibit D2098. My confusion arose from the passage in the previous

24 document which said:

25 "Upon receiving an interim report we will inform you on the

Page 25215

1 combat result achieved so far."

2 It did not say that it will send an interim report to the

3 Presidency. That's how I understood it.

4 And before we break, Ms. Edgerton, when I told you that we'll

5 mark it for identification one intercept among the associated exhibits, I

6 meant 31237A, not 32498, which is to be admitted in full, because

7 Mr. Obradovic himself testified to the content of the intercepts.

8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. That's what I understood.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll take a break for half an hour and

10 resume at half past -- five past 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, if we go back to what Judge Kwon said, perhaps we can

17 clarify. Is it possible that the Main Staff receive interim combat

18 reports as well, but even in such cases that information was included

19 into the regular combat reports that were sent to me?

20 A. It is possible. It depended also on the time that elapsed

21 between the interim report and the last regular report. Perhaps if there

22 is a possibility, that interim report and its information would be

23 incorporated into the next regular combat report.

24 Q. Thank you. Could we have 65 ter 4114 of the 8th of July.

25 Do we agree, General Obradovic, that this seems to be a regular

Page 25216

1 report of the 8th of July? Its number is 189, the next number in line,

2 that is; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can we go to item 6, please, referring to the Drina Corps.

5 Please look at subparagraph (a), "The Enemy." There seems to be some

6 activity in the area towards Gorazde and Vranovina. The last sentence

7 says the following:

8 "On the part of the front towards Srebrenica, the Tri Sise

9 feature was seized by us."

10 Are these three hills?

11 A. Yes, these are features.

12 Q. Topographic features.

13 A. Yes, elevations.

14 Q. Thank you. In subparagraph (b) we see "Situation in the corps."

15 The last sentence:

16 "The units who are active around the front on the Srebrenica

17 enclave seized the Tri Sise feature on the axis Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica."

18 So we have the feature again.

19 Is Zeleni Jadar to the south of Srebrenica, between Srebrenica

20 and Zepa which was supposed to have been in our territory? It was not a

21 protected area.

22 A. In physical terms it is located between the two enclaves.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Exhibit D2099.

Page 25217

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have

2 65 ter 4115.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do we agree, General Obradovic, that this is the same kind of

5 report but for the 9th of July, 1995? We have the same protocol sequence

6 with the following number in line, which is 109.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. One hundred and ninety.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Item 6 again, please.

11 The Drina Corps. Please look at subparagraph (a), "The Enemy."

12 The last sentence has to do with Srebrenica.

13 "At the front towards Srebrenica, the enemy fired from all types

14 of weapons and heavy weapons."

15 Then "Situation in the corps," subparagraph (b):

16 "The corps units are in full combat readiness."

17 Further below, it says:

18 "The forces conducting active combat operations on the front

19 around the Srebrenica enclave are advancing according to plan."

20 II. "Situation in the territory:"

21 "From the Srebrenica enclave, from the observation post,

22 15 members of UNPROFOR fled in two vehicles to our territory (Dutch),

23 accommodated at the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac."

24 Is this what the document states and was the president to be

25 supposed to take any note of this or action, either myself or my

Page 25218

1 advisors?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2100, Your Honours.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have P4449.

8 JUDGE KWON: Just can we stay on this document. No. Let us

9 proceed. Let's continue.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you. This was admitted as a Prosecution exhibit. Is this

12 also the next report in line of the 10th of July, 1995, with the

13 number 191?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Item 6 again, please.

16 Please look at sub-item (b), "Our units." It reads:

17 "The corps units are in full combat readiness. The main body of

18 the force is engaged in persistent defence while a part of the forces is

19 engaged in active combat operations, especially around the Srebrenica

20 enclave where they are carrying out combat tasks as planned. Upon

21 receipt of the report from that sector of the front, we will send an

22 interim report."

23 A. Yes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that the text on the

25 screen reflects what I have. We received it on the 11th. It should be

Page 25219

1 P4449, which is 65 ter 4116. Yes, this is the right one. Item 6,

2 please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is for the 10th of July.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Item 6, please.

5 So it says that the corps units are --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not -- yes, here it is.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Item 6, please. Is this the right

8 one? Yes.

9 So look at sub-item (b). Please zoom in for the General, the

10 Serbian version, that is.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. In sub-item (b), we find the following:

13 "The corps units are in full combat readiness. The main body of

14 the force is engaged in persistent defence while a part of the force is

15 engaged in active combat operations, especially around the Srebrenica

16 enclave where they are carrying out combat tasks as planned."

17 The last sentence:

18 "A part of the forces is engaged in the depth of the territory in

19 order to control it."

20 Does that mean that our rear may have been in danger and that

21 there was a possibility of enemy groups being present?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do we agree that there is nothing in this report that would make

24 my advisors inform me of any extraordinary or important events?

25 A. No, nothing. It's just that it says "upon receipt of the

Page 25220

1 report." It seems that from certain units the Drina Corps did not

2 receive their respective reports and they promised to report once they

3 have.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has been admitted. Could we

6 have P4450 for the 11th of July.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. While we are waiting for that, General, do you agree that it

9 where says that they were active according to plan, the plan was to

10 separate the two enclaves and to regain control of the road between

11 Podravanje and Skelani, which was not supposed to be under their control

12 in the first place?

13 A. The task was to have the enclaves within the arranged borders and

14 to make any communication between the two enclaves impossible, because by

15 that time their communication was quite extensive.

16 Q. And they used that route to supply weapons and ammunition?

17 A. Yes. And they were free to make incursions into Serbian villages

18 and carry out actions against Serbian forces.

19 Q. Thank you. This is the 11th of July, item 6, please, the

20 Drina Corps?

21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Obradovic, what is your basis of knowledge as to

22 the content of the plan? Was it based upon having read documents

23 afterwards?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read a directive as well as

25 directive 7.1 later on. I was also shown a number of documents by the

Page 25221

1 Prosecutor, Mr. McCloskey. In any case, the Drina Corps had this

2 constant problem with the forces of the 28th Division which were in

3 immediate tactical vicinity, and there was always this danger that they

4 would join their forces with the 2nd Tuzla Corps of the Army of BiH. It

5 was a standing problem and it figures frequently in the Drina Corps

6 reports and their analysis of combat readiness.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Please look at the last sentence of item 6. The rest of the

11 paragraph refers to other areas of responsibility, whereas this one

12 refers to Srebrenica. It says:

13 "In the area of Srebrenica, there is strong opposition to VRS

14 forces."

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we have the exact

16 reference in the English translation, please.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Just wait for the interpreters, until they see

18 the reference. You are reading out subparagraph (b).

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. I am now at

20 sub-item (b), and sub-item (a) discussed the Muslim forces.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. In subparagraph (b), we have a reference to combat readiness. It

23 says that some forces are engaged in offensive operations around the

24 Srebrenica enclave. The last sentence says:

25 "Corps units responded to provocations by firing on observed

Page 25222

1 targets ..."

2 Does this entail military targets that were observed?

3 A. In military parlance, observed targets are either units or combat

4 groups, as well as positions of military assets. Those are the targets.

5 Q. Thank you. In this report of the 11th, was there anything that

6 was supposed to alarm my advisors and that they would request my

7 attention?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Thank you, General. It seems that some of this report is

10 illegible, but it would be convenient if we could see the time --

11 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry to intervene so much. You said, "In this

12 report of the 11th, was there anything that was supposed to alarm my

13 advisors and that they would request my attention?" You said, "No." But

14 in the report it says:

15 "Our forces entered the town of Srebrenica, which was a

16 UN-protected safe haven."

17 Is it not something that warrants alarming the president?

18 Mr. Obradovic.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President Karadzic did not read out

20 this particular sentence, but I can see it now.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you agree, General, that the office in Pale received it at

23 2.20 in the morning on the 12th of July?

24 A. I do know that reports arrived late. It says that it was

25 received on the 12th of July, 1995, at 2.20.

Page 25223

1 Q. In the morning?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. You weren't there, but did they show you a document

4 in which on the 9th in the evening, Krstic informed Tolimir that the

5 conditions had suddenly been created for entry into Srebrenica, and I

6 authorised this with certain restrictions? So this sentence couldn't

7 have surprised me because I had already been informed about the fact that

8 the conditions had been created for entering Srebrenica. Did you see

9 those documents in the course of the preparations?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Very well. Since I have already -- since I was already informed

12 about that possibility, was it unlawful to enter Srebrenica, which had

13 not been demilitarised? I apologise if this is legally complicated, but

14 you certainly studied international law. If one side violates the

15 agreement on demilitarisation, the other side no longer has to respect

16 that agreement. Isn't that the case?

17 A. The idea of a protected zone entails the idea of

18 demilitarisation. Here it is quite obvious that within the Srebrenica

19 enclave there was the presence of a division, and combat activity was

20 continually carried out from that enclave. We sustained losses. Our

21 troops sustained losses. Inhabitants were killed, cattle was taken away,

22 and houses were set on fire.

23 Given such occurrences, it was our right to prevent such things

24 from happening in the sense that we had to destroy and neutralise the

25 combat formations that were present in the demilitarised -- or, rather,

Page 25224

1 protected zone.

2 Q. Thank you, General. Does the information according to which we

3 entered Srebrenica mean that we committed any crimes? Was the president

4 informed about the perpetration of crimes of any kind?

5 A. Apart from the fact that it says that Srebrenica had been

6 entered, there is no other information.

7 Q. Can we now see P3054, dated the 12th of July.

8 General, would you agree that here, too, we can see the number

9 03/3-193, and it's dated the 12th of July, 1995?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at item 6

13 again. Could we see item 6 in the English version, too, please.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Please have a look at the last sentence under (a):

16 "From the Srebrenica enclave, the enemy tried to pull out

17 together with women and children towards Ravni Buljin and Konjevic Polje,

18 but they ran into a minefield."

19 And (b), a reference is made to the situation in the corps, and

20 the second sentence says:

21 "Engagement of units to carry out the Krivaja 95 operation: All

22 the combat tasks are going ahead as planned. During the day they

23 liberated Potocari and they continue advancing in order to liberate all

24 of the settlements in the Srebrenica enclave. On the axes, part of our

25 units and MUP units have organised ambushes in order to destroy Muslim

Page 25225

1 extremists who have not surrendered and who are trying to break out from

2 the enclave towards Tuzla."

3 Do we agree that in these two sub-items, it's clear that the

4 objective of our army didn't relate to civilians but to Muslim extremists

5 who hadn't surrendered and who were attempting a breakthrough?

6 A. Yes. That's what it says under (b).

7 Q. Thank you. Please have a look at III. The situation in the

8 territory. It says:

9 "In the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, the population

10 is being taken by organised transport from Srebrenica towards Kladanj.

11 During the day, about 10.000 Muslims estimated for transport."

12 Does it say driving out, deportation, or evacuation, or does it

13 just say that the population is being transported?

14 A. It says the population is being transported.

15 Q. Thank you. Five days after this event, you went to the

16 Main Staff. In the Main Staff were there any discussions about the

17 forcible deportation of this population or was it quite clear that this

18 was done in agreement with the Muslim population?

19 A. There was no indication that force had been used. I know that

20 there were negotiations with certain representatives of the Muslim people

21 from Srebrenica with regard to that transport. I know this from having

22 watched television. And I think this took place in a hotel in Bratunac.

23 Q. Thank you. And given what you heard at the time and subsequently

24 found out in the Main Staff, your understanding was that those who left

25 were people who wanted to leave; is that correct?

Page 25226

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you something else very briefly.

3 You're certainly aware of our Law on All People's Defence. General, with

4 regard to combat activities, do you agree that the army has to evacuate

5 the civilian population whether it wants to be evacuated or not? This

6 doesn't mean, however, that they cannot return.

7 A. This concerned the area of combat operations. These provisions

8 applied to those areas, but given the way events unfolded, in our

9 situation this was often not possible to do.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's now have a look at

12 65 ter document 1917. I think it's been admitted as P4464. Thank you.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, could you please tell us whether the date is the

15 13th of July, and does this number 194 follow this series of numbers?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let's have a look at item 6 once again. In the English version

18 too. Here it mentions Gorazde. And then the next sentence is:

19 "The enemy from the former enclave of Srebrenica is in a state of

20 total disarray, and the troops are surrendering in large numbers to the

21 VRS. A 200- to 300-strong group of soldiers managed to break through to

22 the general sector of Mount Udrc, from where they are trying to break

23 through to the territory under Muslim control."

24 And it mentions our situation, and it says that it concerns

25 combing through the terrain of Srebrenica municipality.

Page 25227

1 Have a look at number 2, situation on the territory.

2 "There is an organised and planned transfer of the population

3 from Srebrenica to the territory under Muslim control."

4 So on the 13th, was it more certain that this was being done in

5 accordance with plans and in a controlled manner?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you ever hear that at some earlier time there had been plans

8 for Muslims to be transferred from Srebrenica forcibly?

9 A. There was no forcible transfer, but when the protected zone was

10 created and when General Morillon entered the area, well, I think that at

11 the time one UNPROFOR contingent transferred some of the population in

12 accordance with their wishes, but the Sarajevo leadership, in fact,

13 prevented this from being done.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that this action taken by the Muslim

15 leadership in Sarajevo, this action taken to prevent civilians from

16 leaving the combat zone, do you agree that this action was a violation of

17 the Geneva Conventions?

18 A. In terms of the right of the inhabitants deciding where they want

19 to be, yes, but as to what their interests were, I don't want to

20 speculate about that.

21 Q. Would you agree that victimising one's own population was an

22 integral part of the military and political leadership of the Muslims?

23 They wanted to victimise their population, portray them as victims in

24 order to gain the sympathy of the international community. Was that the

25 case according to what you know?

Page 25228

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank yo. If we take into consideration the fact that two-thirds

3 of the population in the protected zone at the time did not come from

4 Srebrenica but from other places, does this show that the violation of

5 their rights was even more serious? They were prevented from going

6 somewhere where they wanted to live.

7 A. My opinion is that the local inhabitants of Srebrenica had the

8 right decide to leave that place and not only those who were not

9 originally from the Srebrenica area.

10 Q. Thank you, General. Could we now see P4457.

11 Could you please have a look at the document. Is it the

12 14th of July? Is that the date? The same administration. The number is

13 195. It's the next number in the series in comparison to the previous

14 day; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Let's have a look at item 6 again. Please have a

17 look under item (a), 6(a), "The Enemy." It says:

18 "A major concentration of the enemy forces was noticed. Most

19 probably their objective is to carry out an attack and join up with the

20 groups which are currently pulling out of Srebrenica."

21 So there were a number of groups, and they were massing in order

22 to link up with each other; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now have a look at (b), where it says:

25 "Corps units are maintaining the ordered level of combat

Page 25229

1 readiness. The main body of the corps is engaged in defence, whereas the

2 Milici and Bratunac Brigades as well as the Skelani Independent

3 Infantry Battalion are scouring the terrain and receiving a large number

4 of Muslim fugitives who are surrendering to them."

5 So do these Muslims have to do with the concentration of enemy

6 forces or are they civilians? So does this term, does this expression

7 concern soldiers, the term "Muslim fugitives." The expression "Muslim

8 fugitives," how do you understand this?

9 A. Well, given the inconsistency in the vocabulary, in the

10 vocabulary used, I can't really say. If I had written this, I would have

11 either stated that soldiers were concerned or civilians, but Muslim

12 fugitives is often used as a general expression for a member of enemy

13 forces. No distinction is made between civilians and troops, so I really

14 can't speculate.

15 Q. Thank you, General. But under item (a) enemy forces are

16 mentioned; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this means soldiers, isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Now could we see P4460. Have a look at the number

21 03/3-9196, and date is the 15th of July -- or, rather, the number is 196

22 and the date is the 15th of July; isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could we have a look at item 6 again. The first part is about

25 the other Caparde sector, the Caparde sector. Do you agree that in the

Page 25230

1 first sentence it says that the enemy opened fire from the direction of

2 the 2nd -- from the area of the 2nd Corps from Kalesija on the units in

3 the Gornja Caparde sector? Do you agree that this is co-operation with

4 forces that are breaking through from Srebrenica?

5 A. Yes. That part of the front faced Tuzla, Kalesija, Zivinice, so

6 from Karakaj, Zvornik over Caparde and further on in the direction of

7 Tuzla.

8 Q. Thank you. But that was also legitimate action. It wasn't

9 expected that the president should do something, because it is the

10 enemy's legitimate right to launch an attack. Isn't that correct?

11 Although it could be reason for concern.

12 A. Yes. Joint action can also take place when there isn't physical

13 contact between units. These units leaving from Srebrenica, they were in

14 our rear, whereas these others are units at the front facing Tuzla.

15 Q. Thank you. Then it says:

16 "The remains of the broken up Muslim formations from the former

17 Srebrenica enclave moving towards Kravica and Konjevic Polje in order to

18 move on to the Udrc mount area and from there to Tuzla and Zivinice.

19 During the course of today's day, several enemy groups have surrendered

20 to VRS members in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Infantry

21 Brigade. Around 0440 hours, the enemy launched a strong artillery attack

22 on the defence lines. The attack ended 05 -- 530 hours, but the enemy

23 continued opening artillery and small arms fire at short intervals.

24 During transport towards Zvornik, the Turkish troops pulling out from

25 Srebrenica towards Tuzla opened fire on an ambulance in -- and killed the

Page 25231

1 driver of the vehicle and a paramedic."

2 General, does this relate to our rear and about significant

3 clashes that occurred on the 15th of July?

4 A. Yes. These forces that were crushed means that there were

5 several smaller combat units involved.

6 Q. Thank you. General, do we agree that nothing unusual is being

7 stated here? There is no reference to crimes, nothing that would require

8 efforts to be made by the president?

9 A. In this part there is no such reference.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have II. I think that in

12 Serbian it's on the next page. And in English as well.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do we agree, General, that it says:

15 "Situation in the territory, the Vlasenica-Zvornik road is unsafe

16 due to enemy groups from Srebrenica which are trying to break through to

17 Tuzla."

18 So the main road through that area is unsafe because there are

19 combat groups there; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. You hadn't arrived yet, but you have information

22 concerning the following: The local leadership was afraid, and on the

23 14th of July, I declared a state of war there in Podrinje because --

24 because there was a lack of seriousness on the part of Serbs, and these

25 groups could have taken Milici, Zvornik, whatever. Did you hear that

Page 25232

1 there was a partial declaration of state of war only on the 14th of July?

2 A. Yes. This was carried by the media.

3 Q. Thank you. Can we now have a look at 65 ter 1920. Again,

4 briefly for identification purposes. It's the same administration. The

5 date is the 16th, and the number is one up, 197; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Can we move on to paragraph 6 again. And this is the

8 16th of July. Could we have paragraph 6. And now let us please focus on

9 what it says about the Drina Corps, subparagraph (a).

10 [As read] "On the Tuzla-Zvornik axis, the enemy in front of the

11 PK" --

12 A. "Front end."

13 Q. -- "grouped major forces and used them early in the morning in a

14 stronger artillery and infantry attack on our unit's sector along the

15 Baljkovicka-Rijeka-Pandurica axis. They were coordinating" --

16 A. "Coordinating."

17 Q. I see, "coordinating with the forces pulling out from the former

18 Srebrenica enclave. They were able to break through the defence and

19 capture three trenches in the Baljkovici village sector, create a

20 corridor for the pull-out of the civilian population which was used by

21 about 7.000 mainly unarmed civilians, men, women, children. During this

22 attack the enemy attacked our units from behind the lines irrespective of

23 own losses. Thus they captured three self-propelled guns by bodies,

24 losing hundreds of soldiers. We are currently negotiating with the

25 Muslims with regard to freeing the captured policemen and members of the

Page 25233

1 Zvornik Brigade and the duration of the corridor in the Kalesija-Kladanj

2 part of the front, the enemy carried out provocations," and so on and so

3 forth.

4 Do we agree, General, that this is the first report dated the

5 16th of July informing me that in that column that was breaking through

6 there were civilians as well, that these civilians, except perhaps in the

7 first report, were not mentioned as part of the column?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. So could this also pacify my advisors that they had

10 gotten through, so that they could not alarm me? They had gotten

11 through?

12 A. Since they had gotten through, there was nothing special, nothing

13 specially dramatic, that is.

14 Q. Thank you. Can we now move on to the next page in Serbian.

15 Subparagraph (b).

16 Did you find out -- this was the day before you arrived. Did you

17 find out that they used bodies to take our weapons and equipment and that

18 we had both sustained major losses?

19 A. I heard about the dramatic situation in the area of

20 responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. I was not aware of any details.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you please focus on subparagraph (b).

22 The corps units are in full combat readiness. The

23 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade and attached units are fighting the Muslims

24 who pulled out of Srebrenica. They are trying to deblock the -- they are

25 actually trying to block the Muslim units in order proceed and destroy

Page 25234

1 these groups. The 1st Milici Brigade and the 1st Bratunac Brigade and

2 the Skelani Infantry Battalion forces are searching the terrain with the

3 objective of neutralising remaining enemy groups.

4 General, on the basis of your own military training, is all of

5 this legitimate military activity?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE KWON: General, you said -- can my voice be heard?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE KWON: Can you hear me now?

10 THE ACCUSED: I don't hear you.

11 JUDGE KWON: Turn off your microphone. Could you hear me now?

12 I will use my colleague's.

13 General Obradovic, you said you heard about the dramatic

14 situation in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. What did

15 you mean by "dramatic situation in the area of responsibility of the

16 Zvornik Brigade"?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is dramatic is that in the

18 area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade, that is to say, in the

19 area of Zvornik, there were quite a few armed groups of Muslims in a

20 large area, and they did not have enough forces to control the area. So

21 that was dangerous for the civilian population in that area, in that area

22 of responsibility, because they did not know when they went to work or

23 when they took a car, whatever, whether they would come across them,

24 especially because there were cases of these attacks that took place on

25 roads.

Page 25235

1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please proceed.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, when you say "they did not have enough forces to control

5 the territory," you mean the Zvornik Brigade; right?

6 A. Yes, that is its area of responsibility.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

9 admitted.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2101, Your Honours.

12 THE ACCUSED: I was informed that your microphone, Excellency, is

13 not in function.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. My doesn't work, but we can proceed. I will

15 use my colleague's.

16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 4005.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Again, 03/3-198. The same report; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Paragraph 6, please. Please take a look at this. This is the

22 usual reference to Kalesija, all over that part of the front line, that

23 the enemy is active intermittently, but under II, could you please take a

24 look at the Drina Corps. In the area of responsibility of the

25 Drina Corps, the territory is being searched and they are capturing and

Page 25236

1 destroying groups that pulled out of the former Srebrenica enclave.

2 Are you aware of the fact that these are their armed groups or,

3 rather, combatants?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2102, Your Honours.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly cast a glance at

10 P4459.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do we agree, General, that everything is as usual except the

13 number is 199 and the date is --

14 A. The 18th.

15 Q. Thank you. Subparagraph (a), could we have a look at that now.

16 Gorazde, Sopotnica, and the rest. We don't have to deal with that.

17 Srebrenica, rather.

18 "Crushed enemy forces from the former Srebrenica enclave have

19 been trying to break towards Tuzla in smaller groups. They have been

20 using the following axes: Pobrdje-Kaldrmica-Udrc and Udrc-Brezik-Caparde.

21 In the general sector of Kamenica, the presence of new enemy groups and

22 civilians has been discovered. Allegedly one of their brigades has still

23 not managed to pull out according to our -- enemy forces have been

24 withdrawing one brigade after the other in a rather organised manner with

25 the support of forces from the front line and stronger artillery support,

Page 25237

1 which has inflicted major losses on our units."

2 Do we agree, first of all, that this report makes a distinction

3 between enemy groups and civilians, whereby enemy groups are soldiers and

4 civilians does not mean anything -- or, rather, does not mean the enemy?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Thank you. So this is the 18th of July. There is at

7 least one brigade in our rear, and there is also fighting on the front

8 line facing Tuzla; right?

9 A. It seems here that this is new information, that they were

10 withdrawing one brigade after the other, and according to estimates made

11 here, one brigade was still there.

12 Q. Thank you. So this brigade and enemy groups are the target of

13 our army, not civilians. Would you agree?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Please look at subparagraph (c) now.

16 "During combat operations with Muslim formations which have been

17 pulling out of Srebrenica, in the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade we've had

18 the following losses: 27 dead, 24 seriously wounded, 72 lightly wounded,

19 13 wounded, and a captured officer."

20 In a single day, in a single brigade, are these not immense

21 losses, General, in a brigade that is defending itself, that is part of a

22 defence formation?

23 A. Yes, these are great losses. Over a short span of time.

24 Q. Thank you. Does -- is this part of these dramatic developments

25 in the area of responsibility of that brigade that you heard of?

Page 25238

1 A. Yes. This is included but also the situation in the area of

2 responsibility.

3 Q. Thank you. You did hear, right, that our civilians fell victim

4 to these groups that had not been noticed?

5 A. Well, it seems to me that one vehicle was affected, a few

6 policemen, and then this ambulance. I cannot remember many details now,

7 but that's what made it so dramatic and so uncertain for the population

8 in that area.

9 Q. Thank you, General Obradovic.

10 P4416, can we now have that document, please.

11 Please, can you confirm that yet again this is 03/3-200, on the

12 19th of July, 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could I please have paragraph 6 again. 6, subparagraph (a), it

15 says:

16 "Enemy. In the zone of responsibility of the

17 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, formations from the Srebrenica enclave were

18 smashed and surrounded in Planinci and Baljkovici villages. In the

19 sectors of Bijela Zemlja and Gornja Kamenica, enemy groups are attempting

20 to break through Muslim-controlled territory."

21 So do you agree on the 19th of July there is still intensive

22 fighting going on there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In this report included, there is nothing that was supposed to

25 alarm the president or his advisors; correct?

Page 25239

1 A. I don't know about you, but to us this situation and the losses

2 were alarming. It was our military task.

3 Q. I agree, General, but I wanted to ask you this: Is there any

4 information here about any illegal or criminal activities that the

5 president should be aware of?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you. Could we next have 65 ter 4017. Three days later,

8 the 22nd of July, and three numbers later, 203.

9 A. The 22nd of July, yes.

10 Q. There were reports in between, but nothing of relevance happened

11 in the past three days.

12 Can we go again to item 6?

13 If there was anything of relevance, the number would not be 203.

14 A. Yes. That is the sequence.

15 Q. In English it is page 4 and 5. Please look at sub-item (b) where

16 the 1st Zvornik Brigade is mentioned.

17 "The 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade organised a search of the

18 terrain, destruction and capture of the remaining enemy groups and

19 individuals."

20 Further down below it says:

21 "In Gavrici village, an enemy group which tried to pass through

22 the defence line was smashed. Two enemy soldiers were liquidated and the

23 rest were dispersed by fire by the Zvornik MUP units. On Nedzuk,

24 Boskovici, and Medjedja, enemy artillery fire was prevented. In the

25 Rudnik sector, 17 enemy soldiers were captured, and in the Spreca sector,

Page 25240

1 two enemy soldiers were captured."

2 The first question, General. It says "the rest were dispersed."

3 Does it mean that they fled, they were not captured or killed?

4 A. Yes. It means they dispersed, broke away from this compact unit

5 or group. They were neither killed nor captured or wounded.

6 Q. Thank you. Do we agree, General, that on the 22nd of July, the

7 situation was still quite dangerous with a lot of combat going on?

8 A. Yes.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10 JUDGE KWON: Was it not already admitted? Yes, we'll admit it.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2103, Your Honours.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have

13 65 ter 4020?

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Let us identify the report briefly. The number is 204. The date

16 the 23rd of July, a day later than the previous report.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Item 6 again, please. Sub-item (a), enemy

19 information. There's a reference to the Milici and Bratunac Brigade. It

20 says:

21 "Part of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, 1st Milici

22 Light Infantry Brigade, 1st ZP, and 1st Birac Infantry Brigade are still

23 searching and mopping up the terrain of the remaining enemy groups and

24 individuals. In the Baljkovici-Mihajlovic sector, the

25 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade zone of responsibility, about 20 enemy

Page 25241

1 soldiers were captured. The soldiers of the 1st Bratunac Brigade

2 captured two enemy soldiers. We have been carrying out active combat

3 operations with part of our forces around the Zepa enclave."

4 This term "mopping up," does it mean mopping up the remaining or

5 straggling enemy groups and even without that further explanation, it

6 entailed the mopping up of a certain area to remove any enemy soldiers,

7 not civilians.

8 A. Yes. In military parlance, the term of "search and mopping up"

9 of the terrain is used. "Mopping up" refers to armed soldiers of the

10 enemy.

11 Q. Thank you. And it is indicated that activities are carried out

12 only against enemy soldiers and military targets. So it's all

13 legitimate; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2104, Your Honours.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter 3972.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Let us identify it. The number is 207, the 26th of July. So

21 there must have been reports 204, 205, and 206, but we found nothing of

22 interest there.

23 Is this the 26th of July, number 207?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Item 6, please. In English it is page 4.

Page 25242

1 Look at sub-item (b):

2 "Situation in the corps. Units have continued carrying out

3 defensive operations" --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "The corps units."

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. -- "are holding the current positions tightly. They are taking

7 measures against surprise actions especially against enemy groups from

8 Srebrenica. Units engaged in Zepa are securing the evacuation of the

9 Muslim population."

10 In other words, they are not the ones carrying out the evacuation

11 but securing it; correct?

12 A. That's what it says.

13 Q. It also specifies that all Drina Corps unit's activities are

14 legitimate and of military nature. Can we conclude anything to the

15 contrary from what we see in the document?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So securing the evacuation is a duty on our part and it was a

18 part of regular procedure.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2105, Your Honour.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps instead of "security" we

25 can have it interpreted as "safety." If the interpreters could confirm.

Page 25243

1 "Securing" is used as a verb, whereas in the original we have a noun,

2 "safety."

3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That may be looked into later on, but,

4 Mr. Karadzic, given that my microphone is not working, how about taking a

5 break now for an hour during which I would like the technicians to take a

6 look into it.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have three

8 remaining documents on this topic and then we could break.

9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's have 65 ter 4027, please.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General, the 27th, the number 209.

13 A. No, the 28th of July.

14 Q. I apologise. So the 28th of July. The number is 209; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Item 6, please. Sub-item (a). It mentions certain positions at

17 Boskovici, et cetera, which was in the direction of Tuzla, between Tuzla

18 and Zvornik.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. It says in the area of other brigades there was no combat,

21 although routed groups that came out of Srebrenica were sighted.

22 Sub-item B, situation in the corps:

23 "Our units are in full combat readiness. They are engaged in

24 intensive reconnaissance and monitoring in order to uncover and destroy

25 routed enemy groups. They are erecting barricades and laying ambushes."

Page 25244

1 Is this legitimate military activity?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There are no indications that actions were aimed at the

4 population or illegitimate targets.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted?

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2106, Your Honours.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next, could we have 1 --

11 65 ter 13694.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. General, is this the 6th of August, the number of the report is

14 218; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Item 6 again, please.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: If there is a translation

18 in English, we would like to have it, please.

19 JUDGE KWON: We don't have the English translation, do we?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Then could we kindly ask the accused to read

21 slowly.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe there is translation.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. While we're waiting for it, General, sub-item (a), let's not

25 dwell on that. Sub-item (b), I will read it out loud.

Page 25245

1 "In the area of the village of Kamenica, the forces of the

2 5th Light Infantry Brigade came across an enemy group moving from the

3 direction of Zepa during which occasion they killed three enemy soldiers.

4 The laying of ambushes and search of terrain continues as well as pursuit

5 of the broken-up enemy groups."

6 This is the 6th of August. Do you agree, General that this, too,

7 was legitimate military activity?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted -- MFI'd.

11 There is no translation. There was not enough time.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll do that.

13 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D2107, Your Honours.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last document is 65 ter 16565,

15 also no translation. It is still pending.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Again let us identify it. The 11th of July, and the number is

18 223.

19 A. The 11th of August.

20 Q. Sorry. The 11th of August. Item 6, please. Sub-item (a),

21 "The Enemy:"

22 "Straggling enemy groups from the former enclave of Srebrenica

23 tried to pull out through the area of the 1st Bratunac Infantry Brigade

24 and were discovered in a timely manner."

25 In sub-item (b), we have the following:

Page 25246

1 "During the day, seven enemy soldiers tried to pull out towards

2 Tuzla. Units continue with the search of terrain."

3 It's not clear what happened with the seven enemy soldiers.

4 A. Well, since they were trying to go to Tuzla, they were probably

5 trying to move in that direction, to break through to Tuzla.

6 Q. Oh, I see. And it seems that on our side there was one killed.

7 The II:

8 "In the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, late in the

9 evening on the 10th of August, 1995, in the area of Ruzina Voda, along

10 the road to Vlasenica, a policeman was killed and his wife wounded,

11 probably by some enemy soldiers pulling out. On that occasion, an enemy

12 soldier was killed."

13 So there was nothing in the area. There was no one in the area

14 that was safe from these enemy soldiers, and it actually happened a full

15 month after the fall of Srebrenica.

16 A. Yes, because they dispersed across a very large area and no one

17 was safe.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, can this be

20 admitted, and we can then go on our break.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll mark it for identification as

22 Exhibit D2108.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, can we have a shorter

24 break in order to be able to wrap things up with General Obradovic today?

25 JUDGE KWON: It's not practicable. Shall we break for

Page 25247

1 50 minutes? I think that -- if that's agreeable. So we'll resume at

2 20 past 1.00. Just a second.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will resume at 1.20.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General, sir, let us conclude the following -- the previous

11 topic. Do you agree that in all the reports we presented, the president

12 and his office had not been informed about a single crime?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Speaking about analyses of combat readiness on the

15 basis of which directives are made, on page 13 of yesterday's transcript,

16 you confirmed that an analysis of combat readiness for the previous year

17 is conducted in the following way: The corps present what they did, they

18 envisage what it is that they should do, and they make proposals.

19 Someone from that service collects these proposals from this meeting and

20 includes them in the draft directive; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Some directives are signed by the commander of the

23 Main Staff, and others were signed to the president, for the president to

24 sign?

25 A. I assume that that is the case.

Page 25248

1 Q. Thank you. General Obradovic, now I'd like to ask you something

2 as a matter of principle. If a superior officer makes a mistake,

3 intentionally or unintentionally, does the subordinate officer have the

4 right not to carry out an erroneous decision? Does he have the right to

5 correct it, but before that he has to inform his superior officer about

6 that; right?

7 A. According to the principles and rules that we took over from the

8 JNA, orders are carried out correctly and in a timely fashion, except if

9 one receives an order whose implementation would constitute a crime. In

10 that case, the person who receives such an order is duty-bound not to

11 carry out the said order and to report to his second reporting officer

12 about the kind of order he had received.

13 Q. So this person should report that he had received an erroneous

14 decision that he would not carry out, and he provides information as to

15 why he's not going to carry it out; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. A subordinate commander at any level, is he

18 authorised to change a decision without informing anybody about that?

19 A. He doesn't have the right to change a decision without providing

20 information about that.

21 Q. Thank you. You confirmed to us that at the time when directive 7

22 was created and signed you were not in the Main Staff on the

23 8th of March, and you said that you did not take part in this. However,

24 in the Tolimir case -- or, rather, Popovic case, you confirmed that the

25 directive for the participants -- this is 22355, that's the

Page 25249

1 65 ter number, and the page is 28303 to 307. So a draft was made, so the

2 person who was the drafter unified all the elements -- or, rather, made

3 them uniform, and -- actually, those elements that this person had

4 received from all the other organs that took part in drafting that

5 document, and that is how the document is created; right?

6 A. Yes. The person whose name is written at the end of the

7 directive where it says "Compiled by," this person basically collects the

8 completed elements of the directive from the organs of the command that

9 are in charge of writing certain elements, and this person then forms a

10 single document out of all of that.

11 Q. Thank you. So something that would pertain to the Drina Corps in

12 a particular directive, that would be derived from the presentation of

13 what the Drina Corps had done and the proposals as to what it should do

14 in the forthcoming period; right?

15 A. Yes. Within this analysis, through the discussion or a summary

16 that is presented by the corps commander. He presents this by way of

17 conclusions and he proposes what the tasks would be in the forthcoming

18 period. The extent to which this will be adopted depends on his superior

19 command.

20 Q. Thank you. Do we agree that a directive is a document of

21 strategy and principle and that, later on, the Main Staff and lower

22 commands turn it into executive orders, but the directive itself is not

23 an executive order?

24 A. During the hearing yesterday, I communicated the definition of a

25 directive, that this is a combat document of high commands and staffs,

Page 25250

1 and in it elements are provided for a longer period of time for the

2 preparation and implementation of combat operations. Tasks are not

3 spelled out in detail in directives. Rather, the objectives of

4 operations are pointed out, the general task of the unit in the spirit of

5 the commander's idea. So a directive provides elements to subordinate

6 commands for them to carry out their planning and execution of combat

7 operations independently.

8 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about directive number 7. Do

9 you know that directive number 7 was transformed into an executive order

10 by General Mladic, that is 7-1, and in it he changed certain

11 controversial elements from directive number 7?

12 A. Yes. As I compared the documents that were given to me in the

13 previous trial by Mr. McCloskey, I compared the tasks from directive 7

14 and directive 7-1, and the task of the Drina Corps is not identical in

15 these two directives.

16 Q. So Mladic changed something in directive 7, and that something is

17 not contained in directive 7-1; right?

18 A. Yes. Directive 7-1 that was signed by the commander of the

19 Main Staff -- I mean, the content of the task of the Drina Corps are not

20 identical to those in directive 7.

21 Q. Thank you. In accordance with the principles of command and

22 control, could Mladic change this at his own initiative, or did he have

23 to know that it had come from me?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpretation is not right.

25 [Accused and Defence counsel confer]

Page 25251

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So this is my question: If Mladic were to believe that this had

3 come from me, he would not dare change this until he would inform me

4 about it?

5 A. In principle, yes. He would have to seek approval for a change

6 of directive 7.

7 Q. However, if his understanding was that this had come from some

8 services and that it was a mistake, he did not have to inform me. He

9 could have changed it; right?

10 A. Well, I don't know how he made his conclusions, but that is

11 probably the case.

12 Q. Thank you. Now -- now I would like to ask you to take a look at

13 this, how this directive 7-1, which is executive, affected the area of

14 the Drina Corps, particularly Srebrenica, especially in relation to

15 humanitarian aid. Now I'm going to present to you briefly and quickly

16 what humanitarian aid was like, say, from September 1993 until just

17 before the fall of Srebrenica.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could General Obradovic please be

19 shown 1D05365.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I would like to show you a time sequence. And let us see whether

22 there were any changes in our position regarding humanitarian issues and

23 whether that was a change for the better or for the worse. Please focus

24 on this, where it says "Srebrenica."

25 Do we agree that the command of the 1st Zvornik Light Infantry

Page 25252

1 Brigade on the 25th of September, 1993, received approval from the

2 Main Staff for 80 metric tonnes to enter Srebrenica? 80 metric tonnes of

3 some humanitarian aid from the UNHCR. And then for Srebrenica and

4 Sarajevo, a Russian convoy, 90 and 80 tonnes.

5 So the plans are on a weekly basis. Do we agree with that?

6 A. Yes, we can see that.

7 Q. Can we move on to the next page.

8 Do we agree that on the 1st of October it is 80 tonnes, and on

9 the 2nd of October, Sarajevo, 80 metric tonnes of food, and it was signed

10 by the Chief of Staff, General Manojlo Milovanovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted? For

13 identification. The translation's not there yet, but it's a question of

14 numbers. So it's easy to understand.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Obradovic, did you say the

16 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade received the approval? Where do we

17 see Zvornik Brigade? Can we see the first page again?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The stamp, Excellency. It was

19 received by the command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. The upper right-hand corner.

22 A. It's in Cyrillic, so that confuses the matter a bit.

23 Q. The Main Staff informed all corps. However, this particular

24 check-point in Zvornik received --

25 A. In the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade.

Page 25253

1 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll mark it for identification.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D2109, Your Honours.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have

4 1D05366. There is a translation. However, it's numbers, so whatever you

5 wish.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. General, again it's a weekly plan for Srebrenica, the

8 5th of October, 100 metric tonnes. On the 6th of October, 80 --

9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I don't think the -- this is a correct

10 translation. I see IBK, HK, SRK, but we see only Drina Corps. Date is

11 different.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a mistake in the translation

13 or it's the wrong document, but since this only concerns numbers,

14 Your Excellency, we'll correct that. I just wanted to introduce the

15 document to the General so that he can confirm a few things. Is that

16 okay?

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but -- please proceed.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. General, do you agree that on the 5th of October, a hundred

21 metric tonnes were approved for Srebrenica and 65 for Zepa?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. On the 6th, 80 metric tonnes for Srebrenica.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On the 8th, 80 tonnes for Sarajevo, and on the 9th for Sarajevo

Page 25254

1 80 tonnes.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The next page, please. The 10th, Sarajevo, 90 tonnes;

4 Srebrenica, 100 tonnes.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And Gorazde 65.

7 A. Yes, we can see that.

8 Q. Do you agree that it says the following:

9 "The approval pertains exclusively to the supply of food,

10 medication, medical material, and material for hygiene. Any other

11 material cannot be transported to the Muslim territory without a separate

12 approval of which you will be informed in time."

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters did not

14 hear the answer nor the following remark by Mr. Karadzic.

15 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters were not able to catch up the last

16 part of the question and answer.

17 First, could you repeat your answer, General Obradovic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please -- [Microphone not activated] please

20 continue.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll mark it for identification.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D2110, Your Honours.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D105367. We will

25 have two more documents for 1993 and then we'll move on to 1995, before

Page 25255

1 and after directive 7.9. So 1D105367.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. This is dated the 8th of October, weekly report to all corps, and

4 this one was received in the Zvornik Brigade as we can see on the stamp;

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. On the 11th of October, Srebrenica 80 metric tonnes.

8 The 13th of October, Foca, 83; Srebrenica 65. On the 14th of October,

9 Srebrenica, 65 metric tonnes.

10 The next page, please. The 15th of October, we have it on the

11 first page in English, Srebrenica, 100 tonnes, Swedish. And then for

12 Tuzla, Russian, 80 tonnes. In the text following the figures it says:

13 "The approval pertains exclusively to the supply of food, medical

14 supplies and toiletries."

15 Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Signed by Colonel Miletic.

18 A. Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2111, Your Honours.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The last document from

23 1993, which is 1D05 --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1D105368.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25256

1 Q. Another weekly plan sent to all corps. This one was received by

2 the Zvornik military post in Cyrillic. Do we agree?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. The 18th of October, 65 metric tonnes for Srebrenica.

5 The 20th of October, 100 metric tonnes for Srebrenica. The 21st of

6 October, 80 metric tonnes for Srebrenica; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The next page, please. The 23rd of October, Sarajevo, 80 metric

9 tonnes. The 24th of October, again Sarajevo, 80 metric tonnes. So two

10 days in a row. The box towards the bottom says:

11 "The approval pertains exclusively to the supply of food,

12 toiletries, and medical supply. Any other material cannot be transferred

13 to the Muslim territory without a separate approval of which you will be

14 notified in time."

15 It seems that this sentence keeps appearing in the same context.

16 A. Yes. This is what they repeated in every plan.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a standing clause. I believe

18 that's what the witness said.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Correct, General?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Let's go to January 1995, 1D --

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this one be admitted, first?

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 2112, Exhibit D2112.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D05373. I'll have to skip many

Page 25257

1 for the lack of time.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Is this another weekly plan of the 19th of January, 1995?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Gorazde, 5.600 litres of oil. And then we have

6 Karakaj and Srebrenica, for the 21st of January, 5.600 litres of heating

7 oil. Then the 24th, 9 trucks with 72 metric tonnes of food and one truck

8 of 5.600 litres of heating oil. You can see the figures for the 25th,

9 9 trucks.

10 A. 72 tonnes.

11 Q. Yes. 180 rolls of plastic foil, 4 cans of glue, 15 boxes of

12 men's clothes, and 72 boxes of children's clothes, and we have some other

13 data we can see all that; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. The next page, please. Here we have Zepa and other

16 locations. Let's look at the bottom.

17 "The convoy leader will be in possession of original approvals

18 under the specific numbers and appropriate documentation about the cargo

19 as well as the vehicles and persons involved. Exercise control and

20 enable them to move freely along the specified travel routes." Signed by

21 Milovanovic; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2113, Your Honours.

Page 25258

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D035374, please. We'll skip

2 another few.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you agree that this is another weekly plan starting with the

5 16th of February, 1995? The Hercegovina and Drina Corps commands were

6 informed because they had their check-points in the area of the convoy;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the 18th of February. Gorazde and then

10 Srebrenica, 9 motor vehicles, 15 metric tonnes of flour, 8 metric tonnes

11 of beans, 392 boxes of beef. Well, you can see it for yourself. Then on

12 the same day, one tank truck with 5.600 litres of heating oil; correct?

13 A. Yes. The upper one was to come from Uzice and Serbia proper,

14 whereas the other one was to go via Karakaj and Srebrenica, the one in

15 the box.

16 Q. That's why they informed the Hercegovina Corps; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the 21st. Karakaj, Srebrenica, 9 motor

19 vehicles, 23 metric tonnes of flour, 5 tonnes of beans. And on the 22nd

20 we have something similar, another tank truck, pillows, et cetera;

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Can this be admitted?

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2114, Your Honours.

Page 25259

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 1D05391, please.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do we agree that this is a weekly report of the approved convoys

4 between the 18th of March, 1995, onwards, that is to say, ten days

5 following the famous directive number 7?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Let's look at the quantities to see if directive 7

8 influenced them. On the 18th, for Srebrenica, 9 trucks, 72 metric tonnes

9 of flour, sugar, powder milk, detergent. One truck with 5.600 litres of

10 heating oil.

11 On the 26th, there is something for Gorazde, and on the 26th for

12 Srebrenica as well, 10 trucks, 80 metric tonnes, again flour, sugar,

13 et cetera, and on the 22nd of March, 9 trucks, 72 metric tonnes flour,

14 and another tank truck with heating oil; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are the quantities the same as before directive 7? Well, maybe

17 they were not identical, but there were no reductions, if you recall the

18 previous figures.

19 A. Well, the number trucks and tonnes tally. They're approximately

20 the same.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2115, Your Honours.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D05470.

Page 25260

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do we agree, General, that this is another weekly report starting

3 with the 7th of April. On the 8th of April, 9 trucks for Srebrenica,

4 72 metric tonnes of flour, beans, et cetera, and one tank truck

5 containing 5.600 litres of heating oil.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the 11th, after Gorazde we have Srebrenica with 9 trucks,

8 again 72 metric tonnes of the same supplies, and on the 12th, 9 trucks

9 and 72 metric tonnes of mostly flour, and another tank truck with heating

10 oil.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So there were no reductions; correct?

13 A. The quantities were the same.

14 Q. Have you ever heard General Milovanovic being criticised for

15 failing to reduce the number -- the quantities of aid for Srebrenica?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2116, Your Honours.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have 1D05397,

22 the following weekly plan of the 13th of April.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do we agree that it was foreseen and approved that on the

25 15th of April there are 9 trucks for Srebrenica, 72 metric tonnes of

Page 25261

1 flour, sugar, oil, soap. Then on the 16th, Gorazde and then Srebrenica,

2 seven trucks, 20 metric tonnes. On the 18th, again 9 trucks, 72 metric

3 tonnes of flour, fish, et cetera, and one tank truck of 5.600 litres of

4 heating oil, and two trucks, in brackets (the Swedish construction

5 project). The 19th, 9 trucks, 72 metric tonnes of flour, oil, et cetera.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. General, if I told you that there were witnesses here

8 who testified that for months on end convoys did not arrive, would you

9 tell them that they did not state the truth, to say the least?

10 A. Well, I wouldn't need to say anything. It's all here.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

13 JUDGE KWON: I was told that the previous one, the previous

14 document of 7 of April is a duplicate of document that has been already

15 admitted. If the Registrar, for the record, could pronounce the name,

16 the exhibit number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it's Exhibit P839.

18 JUDGE KWON: And we'll admit this, 1D5397.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2116, Your Honours.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll deal with the

21 rest on another occasion since we had to skip them now. Could we have

22 1D5380 next. Thank you.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is this another weekly plan of the 30th of April, 1994 -- 1995?

25 On the 2nd of May for Srebrenica, nine trucks, then another two trucks.

Page 25262

1 Then on the 3rd of May, nine trucks, and finally, the 4th of May,

2 18 trucks -- no, 2 trucks and 18 metric tonnes for the Swedish

3 construction project, but the rest is food; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this be admitted?

6 MS. EDGERTON: It's another duplicate, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE KWON: Of what exhibit, Ms. Edgerton?

8 MS. EDGERTON: Defence Exhibit 02068.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we see 1D05400.

10 We have skipped quite a few.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Which is a duplicate of P04452.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I agree. But what --

13 the Serbian version that was admitted was underlined, and you can't see

14 it very clearly. That is why I wanted this more legible document for the

15 General.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. This is the 2nd of June, General. Do we agree that nine lorries

18 entered Srebrenica, and then on 6th of June, nine lorries, on the

19 7th of June, ten lorries; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has been admitted, yes. Just

23 a minute. Could we have a look at P4452. 03702. We'll call that one

24 up. This hasn't been admitted. 65 ter document.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25263

1 Q. Yes. Have a look at this, General. On the 12th of June, do we

2 agree that at the time the offensive around Sarajevo had already started

3 as well as the action around Srebrenica? So this was the second part of

4 June, and it was a very intense period. There's a mistake here. Can you

5 see that it says the 13th of June and then the 14th of June and then the

6 15th of June. On those three days, eight lorries entered, ten lorries

7 and then two lorries, 72 metric tonnes of goods, 80 metric tonnes, and

8 30 metric tonnes over this three-day period. Isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be admitted?

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2117, Your Honours.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now see

15 1D05403.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Can we agree that this is a weekly UNHCR plan? It was approved.

18 It's for Srebrenica. The date is the 19th of June. It's for Srebrenica,

19 72 metric tonnes, 9 lorries, and you can see the goods concerned, soap

20 and so on and so forth. On the 21st of June, another nine lorries were

21 supposed to deliver goods to Srebrenica and the other zones, Gorazde, and

22 so on and so forth. Is that quite clearly stated here?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Are the same quantities concerned? Were there any changes as a

25 result of directive number 7?

Page 25264

1 A. Nine lorries of food and 72 metric tonnes being delivered.

2 Usually the goods concerned flour and beans.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be admitted, please?

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2118, Your Honours.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D05405.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. While waiting for that, General, do you remember that on the 26th

10 of June, Naser Oric's forces went on one of their excursions to the

11 Visnjica village. They torched it, they killed the civilians, and they

12 themselves reported that the Chetniks had sustained civilian losses.

13 A. I don't remember the date but I am aware of that event.

14 Q. Thank you. However, regardless of the fact, the Main Staff

15 provided authorisation, and on the 4th of July, nine lorries were allowed

16 to go to Gorazde, and for Srebrenica, eight lorries containing the same

17 goods. So the crime they committed didn't have any particular result.

18 You can see that something was delivered to Zepa as well. Do you agree

19 with that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I haven't risen yet, but I actually

24 think the questions asked of the witness and answers given for a while

25 now don't even meet the most basic -- come up to the most basic threshold

Page 25265

1 for the -- threshold test for admissibility of these documents. The

2 question asked in this case was with regard to some activities of

3 Naser Oric and so the crime they committed didn't have any particular

4 result. You can see that asking was delivered to Zepa as well. Do you

5 agree with that? And I actually don't think that's sufficient, and it

6 hasn't been sufficient for a while.

7 JUDGE KWON: Absolutely agree. That's an unnecessary statement

8 on the part of the accused, which has become his habit.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise,

10 Your Excellency, but I wanted to refresh everyone's memory in these

11 proceedings. On the 26th -- on the 20th of June, there was a massacre in

12 the village of Visnjica. The Chamber and the Prosecution is aware of the

13 fact as well as the General.

14 JUDGE KWON: You're just simply ruining the probative value, if

15 any, of the witness's evidence. Just concentrate on questions.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I won't ask you about

17 Visnjica.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, on the 30th of June, was it planned that on the

20 4th of July these eight lorries with 65 metric tonnes of goods should

21 enter Srebrenica?

22 A. Yes. And 9 lorries for Gorazde with 72 tonnes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 25266

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2119.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D05382.

3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do we agree, General, that this is a weekly plan for

5 delivering -- for delivery? It was drawn up on the 7th of July, 1991,

6 and according to the plan, on the 11th of July, 9 -- 8 lorries with

7 64 tonnes of flour to enter Srebrenica?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I can leave this for the closing argument, but, General, if you

10 are in the Main Staff and you were planning to enter Srebrenica, would

11 you have issued this sort of authorisation for a convoy that is supposed

12 to provide flour on the 11th?

13 A. Well, yes, this is intended for the civilian population.

14 Q. So was the civilian population then to be evacuated or were they

15 to be provided with food in Srebrenica?

16 A. Nothing of the sort had been planned.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2120, Your Honours.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we see 1D5378

21 now. Unfortunately, the translation service didn't agree to translate it

22 because they didn't think it was legible enough, but I hope that you will

23 be able to read through it. It's an important document, because it's one

24 week after the directive.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honours, if the translation service

Page 25267

1 didn't agree to translate it, that means that we're not going to get a

2 translation, doesn't it?

3 JUDGE KWON: We'll try whether the witness would be able to read

4 this.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you agree -- please read through it. Do you agree that this

7 was written to me from the Main Staff on the 15th of March, 1995? It was

8 one week after the directive.

9 A. It says "Republika Srpska." That's the heading. 06/19-29, dated

10 the 15th of March, 1995, to the President of Republika Srpska. Then the

11 letter starts with the words "Mr. President."

12 Q. What you can see encircled under number 1 -- or, rather, in the

13 box under number 1 is that legible?

14 A. 1. "The Doctors Without Borders have organised Western

15 intelligence services in which they have integrated intelligence

16 officers, 'working visits.' In the enclaves" --

17 Q. In function?

18 A. "In the enclaves reports are being received by -- or from

19 operations officers in the field."

20 Q. Operations officers in the field?

21 A. Operations officers.

22 Q. Giving instructions?

23 A. "Giving instructions for intelligence work and to," something,

24 "enclaves," but I don't know what it says.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you have a look at item 2. Is it true that here

Page 25268

1 General Milovanovic, and we'll see that he signed it, General Milovanovic

2 says that lately -- can you read this?

3 A. "At the same time we are informing you that with regard to the

4 delivery of humanitarian aid to the enclaves, lately the number of

5 lorries in the convoys has increased, and they are making these

6 deliveries on the basis of weekly plans of the UNHCR" -- I can't read the

7 last part.

8 Q. Belgrade.

9 A. Yes, the UNHCR Belgrade.

10 Q. Thank you, General. Would General Milovanovic inform me of the

11 fact that the number of convoys was being increased if the week prior to

12 that, I issued an order to reduce the number of convoys? Is this

13 inconsistent? Is this illogical? If it is taken we wanted to reduce the

14 number of convoys, would the General have then informed one of the fact

15 that the number of convoys was being increased?

16 A. Yes, that is illogical.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be admitted?

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. In fact, I apologise. There is another paragraph. Can you see

20 this part?

21 A. "Given the number of inhabitants in the enclaves at this time, at

22 this point in time, the enclaves are being provided with supplies,

23 various kinds of supplies and sufficient quantities of the" --

24 Q. Food?

25 A. I can't read it.

Page 25269

1 Q. Of food. "In our assessment, amassing more food would be for the

2 intensive preparations of the Muslims to," something -- well, it has to

3 do with their preparations, with their further plans. Thank you.

4 Perhaps General Milovanovic would be able to read this document more

5 easily.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

7 marked for identification?

8 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, do you have an objection to marking it

9 for identification?

10 MS. EDGERTON: I take it you mean marked for identification

11 subject to a full and complete translation.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Otherwise, it will not be admitted.

13 MS. EDGERTON: All we've been trying to do is have a read of the

14 document, and I actually take issue with the accuracy of the rendering

15 that we've been given in court. Unless there's some threshold question,

16 Your Honour, again I don't think we're there.

17 JUDGE KWON: But you started by asking questions about convoy to

18 this witness.

19 MS. EDGERTON: I did, Your Honour, but for -- in each case with

20 respect to each document, there was some threshold foundational questions

21 with respect to the document itself. We haven't had that. We've only

22 had the witness trying to read illegible portions of the document in this

23 case. That's why I suggest it's different in this case.

24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We mark it for identification.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D2121, Your Honours.

Page 25270

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. To help Ms. Edgerton, General, in the Main Staff, was the will of

3 the political leadership to reduce humanitarian aid ever thought about,

4 was it ever discussed?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at

8 65 ter 15712. A 65 ter document.

9 JUDGE KWON: Just for planning purpose, Ms. Edgerton, I take it

10 you need some time for your re-examination.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Right now minimum half an hour, I figure,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I shouldn't be rushing

15 through all of this. Then we'd have to ask the General to stay until

16 Monday. It would really be a pity.

17 JUDGE KWON: That's a separate matter, Mr. Karadzic. I don't

18 think you have spent your time very efficiently so far. Please continue.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Please, General, do you remember that I was informed in the

21 previous document that Doctors Without Borders were not clean, as it

22 were, that there were intelligence services involved there?

23 Now, please take a look at this document that is signed by

24 Momir Nikolic, a captain from Bratunac. Do you see that there is a

25 reference here to this abuse, that tools and material appeared,

Page 25271

1 purportedly for the waterworks, and this Captain Nikolic is suggesting

2 that this should be taken away on a permanent basis so that they would no

3 longer be involved in smuggling, because they say that this is taken away

4 when entering the enclaves and then returned when they leave the

5 enclaves? Do you agree that this is yet further proof of abuse in and by

6 the enclaves?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10 JUDGE KWON: I'm really wondering why you are putting this

11 document to this witness while you didn't when Mr. Nikolic was here, and

12 this witness knows nothing about this. He knows as much as just we know.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Excellency, this was sent to

14 the Main Staff. It arrived in the Main Staff, and the learned

15 Madam Edgerton asked this witness what the army had to do with crisps,

16 potato chips, and we are going to show that potato chips and all sorts of

17 other things were used for smuggling ammunition that was then fired at

18 our people. So the topic was brought up by Ms. Edgerton. I mean, why

19 convoys were being checked. Let us see why.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let us proceed. Yes. We'll admit this.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2122, Your Honours.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have

23 65 ter 15706.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, just for planning purposes, we should

25 rise at 3.00 sharp because of another hearing.

Page 25272

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll do my best.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. General, please take a look at this. I don't know whether the

4 translation has arrived. I think it hasn't.

5 Do you agree that this is information on abuse of the mandate of

6 international organisations, and then the dates are for 1993, and it says

7 what they brought in. And look at this, the 13th of October, Karakaj.

8 It's the area of the Drina Corps. So this is just the area of the

9 Drina Corps at Zvornik and Bratunac. Do you agree that the quantities

10 involved in this report are very large, satellite antennas as well, and

11 various material? Look at this, the 13th of October, communications

12 equipment and so on and so forth. On the first page we see that there

13 are about 10 or 15 cases of abuse. Do you agree?

14 A. That is what is written on this page, yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Do we agree that nitrate fertilizer can be used to

16 make explosives, and indeed, explosives were made that way?

17 A. I know that, although I'm no expert for explosives.

18 Q. Thank you. The 11th of December, in the middle of December,

19 56 tonnes of fertilizer. It is not exactly the farming season, is it?

20 A. Not in our part of the world, that climate.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now I'm going to read this out. Look at this: Oxygen bottles up

25 here. And then 112 furnaces, a truck of footwear, and then "secera" for

Page 25273

1 Srebrenica. And then further down, it says there were cases when entire

2 UNPROFOR or UNHCR convoys were returned because they refused to be

3 submitted to checks. Probably they had goods that had not been approved.

4 These attempts lead to the conclusion that they were trying to transfer

5 goods to the Muslim side and that this was done by individuals from

6 convoys or entire teams for the purpose of smuggling and so on and so

7 forth. And then there are also cases when they sympathise the Muslim

8 side and therefore --

9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we are not able to read this, and you

10 are not giving evidence. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Exactly on that point, Your Honour. If

12 Dr. Karadzic is going to read that out, perhaps then he could tell us

13 what parts he's reading and actually read it out instead of paraphrasing

14 as well.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I was in a hurry. I was

17 rushing through it. I wanted to read it, but the essence is faithfully

18 represented. I read it faithfully and then that was the first part. And

19 the second part, the second part of goods that they tried to transport in

20 UNPROFOR convoys or convoys of humanitarian organisations, it can be

21 stated that this was a preconceived operation on the part of members of

22 these organisations who are inclined toward the Muslim side or they

23 wanted to help them with goods that were deficient and that should be

24 used for the needs of the armed forces of the Muslims first and foremost.

25 And then further on it says when the representatives of these

Page 25274

1 organisations complain about the action of organs --

2 JUDGE KWON: It's not really conducive to an efficient hearing.

3 I don't see the point of time being used in this way. We can't follow at

4 all. Could you not put it in a simpler form to the witness and just let

5 us mark it for identification if it satisfies us as regards the threshold

6 of admission.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. General, yesterday you were asked about what guided the

10 Main Staff in restricting goods and checking what was brought in. Is

11 this one of the elements that made our army cautious? I mean, these

12 abuses. Were you aware of that?

13 A. Yes. I provided an answer yesterday. There were individual

14 cases of abuse, and that led to suspicion on our part, and here a

15 particular organ is referring to a particular area, and he is referring

16 to all of these cases of abuse in his area.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted or marked for

19 identification.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D2123, Your Honours.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 1D5135, can we have a

23 look at that? I am sorry that all of this is due to that challenge

24 regarding potato chips. So this hasn't been translated either, but the

25 General will be able to identify this, and it's the last bit from this

Page 25275

1 series.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. General, could you please read this. Is it correct that this is

4 being written to Delic, General Delic, in 1992, and can you introduce

5 this document, just the first paragraph, please?

6 A. There is this stamp in the upper right-hand corner, Ministry of

7 Defence, Army of BH, strictly confidential, 02152-618. The date is the

8 12th of December, 1992, Sarajevo. So it was received by this institution

9 and it says to Rasim Delic personally, and then Lemos M -- oh, Lemes.

10 And then it has to do with remarks regarding the delivery of goods and

11 oxygen and guidelines for the next delivery on the basis of this

12 instruction.

13 Q. Could you read the first bullet point to the Trial Chamber.

14 A. "We are very seriously objecting to the way you put ammunition

15 into bottles. It is only by sheer coincidence that this time we have not

16 been discovered, because ammunition was rattling every time we moved the

17 bottles. Please pack this ammunition in appropriate sacks as had been

18 the case with a few of these bottles. So in the future nothing should be

19 heard coming from the bottles when they are being moved."

20 Q. Thank you.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To save time for the Prosecution,

22 I'm not going to ask the General to read out the rest. When the entire

23 document is translated, then you will see what kind of manipulation were

24 is involved.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25276

1 Q. Sorry, let me just ask you one more thing. Was this not clear to

2 us that this was the way things were being smuggled, under the guise of

3 medical aid?

4 A. Well, yes. Our suspicions were based on this kind of thing and

5 knowledge thereof, also, our reservations regarding these convoys.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this be admitted?

7 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification as D2124.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 1D05390, please.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General, sir, now you're going to see the document. It says on

11 the 12th of March, 1995, that is to say, four days after the well-known

12 directive 7.

13 A. Could you please enlarge this a bit.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this please be enlarged.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. It seems that only the accompanying text has been translated,

17 what the General wrote. The rest is all in Latin, and it's medication.

18 So look at this. Ampicillin, 1.000 boxes. Yes, yes, please just take a

19 look at this. It's thousands and thousands of tablets or injections that

20 were approved. This is a list of medication for Srebrenica that is being

21 transported on the 14th of March, 1993 -- or, no, 1995.

22 Can we have the next page now.

23 Did you know, General -- did our people know that they were

24 involved in a lot of smuggling as far as these medicines are concerned,

25 and other things as well?

Page 25277

1 A. One element was favouring the Muslim side and another one was

2 profiting from these convoys.

3 Q. Thank you. Do we agree that on the 14th of March, 1995, this was

4 approved; namely, that these millions of tablets - if we were to multiply

5 the content of each and every package with the number of packages, it's

6 millions - was all of this approved for entry into Srebrenica?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the witness's

8 answer.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page.

10 JUDGE KWON: What was your answer? The interpreters did not hear

11 your answer, Mr. Obradovic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirmed that I saw the approved

13 list of the quantities of medicine for the enclave. As for this

14 statement of the president about millions, I said that I don't know how

15 many smaller packages are contained in a big package so that we would

16 know the actual number of smaller units.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Was this signed by General Milovanovic on the 12th of March?

19 A. Yes. Well, there is no signature. It's the signature block,

20 because this is coded.

21 Q. Thank you. And it says here that those who submitted the

22 requests were made aware of the fact that certain quantities had been

23 approved.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So can this be admitted now?

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 25278

1 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D2125, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE KWON: Can we not admit it in full? Ms. Edgerton, the --

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE KWON: They referred to the original for the list which are

5 the names of the medical items, so I do not think we need to have the

6 translation. Would you like to have the translation, though?

7 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, no, I don't think so. I take issue with the

8 mathematical calculations, but that's another story.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll admit it in full.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 1D05393, please. Just

11 parts of the document, to be as efficient -- or, rather, more efficient.

12 Just two documents that were dated after the directive.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Take a look at this. Do we agree that this was the

15 27th of March? Again, it was received in the Zvornik Brigade.

16 General Milovanovic is providing information that the movement of convoys

17 has been authorised on the 28th of March with the aim of conducting

18 medical evacuation from Srebrenica in the period between the 20th and

19 30th of March. And then the third paragraph says this evacuation

20 involves 30 civilian patients of UNHCR and 17 persons accompanying them

21 and then the names are listed; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do we agree that there is no change in our humanitarian behaviour

24 after directive 7 on the basis of what you've seen?

25 A. I agree.

Page 25279

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2126, Your Honours.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 65 ter 03643, please.

5 This is the last document from this series.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. General, do we agree that the then Colonel Miletic is here

8 reporting to the commands of the relevant military districts that

9 authorisation has provided -- has been provided for convoys and then

10 Srebrenica and other places are mentioned. And then under 3 it says

11 delivery of vaccinations for children in Srebrenica and so on.

12 Do you agree that this is the customary behaviour when it comes

13 to humanitarian aid, and we never failed to help children who were ill

14 when it came to these needs. We never withheld such assistance.

15 A. Yes, this can be seen in the document. It says carry out

16 controls and enable the convoy to pass through unobstructed.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it please be admitted?

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2127, Your Honours.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have a look at

22 1D02517.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. While we're waiting for that, General, is it correct that you

25 were engaged at the forward command post in the vicinity of another

Page 25280

1 enclave -- or, rather, so-called protected zone. Let's say the protected

2 zone of Bihac.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. This is now in English, so I'll just present it to

5 you. It's the 27th of October, 1994. That's the date. Do you agree

6 that this was at the time of a large-scale offensive launched from the

7 Bihac enclave as a result of which you and Milovanovic were sent to that

8 area in order to liberate the Serbian areas that had been occupied?

9 A. Yes, but I do have to point out that this is the 27th of October,

10 and in mid-November I went down there.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that here General Milovanovic is

12 providing information, it's from the Main Staff, according to which the

13 Muslim forces have set off from the protected zone and they have launched

14 a fierce attack on the Serbian forces with the artillery and infantry?

15 Is that the case?

16 A. Yes. And that is why one went to the forward command post, and

17 the Main Staff command designated General Milovanovic to be the main

18 commander at that forward command post. The action and the attack of the

19 5th Corps was in the direction of Krupa to the east and to the south in

20 the direction of Vakuf, over Ripici.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

23 THE REGISTRAR: This is in evidence as Exhibit D710.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

25 MS. EDGERTON: And just to note, Your Honour, I didn't see a

Page 25281

1 B/C/S translation of this document. So the witness, I note, was agreeing

2 with a question based on the content of the document without being able

3 to read the document.

4 JUDGE KWON: General, can you clarify?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President Karadzic asked me about

6 the enclave or the protected zone of Bihac. The date is the

7 24th of October. That's when the ABiH 5th Corps broke through from the

8 protected zone in the direction of the Krupa settlement and in the

9 direction of Vakuf in the south. I said that that was the reason for

10 which we had been sent to that forward command post. General Milovanovic

11 and a certain number of other officers left immediately, whereas I was

12 ordered by General Miletic to go there. And it was in mid-November that

13 I arrived in the area in Jasenica, and I'm familiar with these events.

14 As for the contents of the document, I haven't read the document

15 because it's in English.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. So you answered without reading the document.

17 Let's proceed. This is the document you used with General Rose.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D054526 now.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. On the 15th of November, 1994, I believe you're already down

21 there. Have a look at this. It's the forward command post in Jasenica

22 that is concerned here. The date, the 15th of November, and it's a

23 report -- a report to the units of the 2nd command. In the course of our

24 successful counter-offensive at the Krupa-Bihac battle-field, the Muslims

25 have again, true to custom, managed to secure pressure -- well, it's been

Page 25282

1 translated. I won't read through all of it.

2 Does this correspond to the information you had to -- when they

3 attacked, they had success, we wouldn't complain. And when we would get

4 back territory, return territory, they would ask for protection in the

5 so-called falsely demilitarised zones. Does this correspond to the

6 information that you had?

7 A. Yes. That's how the events unfolded.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2128, Your Honours.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we see 1D05428.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, do you remember that your commander at the time, your

15 immediate commander, appealed to the Muslim 5th Corps to surrender at

16 that place? Have a look at the document. Is that the document in which

17 an appeal is made to them and they're told about how they would be

18 treated. He also says that they are taking into consideration the lives

19 of the civilians, of all the members of the 5th Corps, officers, and so

20 on and so forth, regardless of their rank. It says that their lives will

21 be spared, their families will be able to return and so on and so forth.

22 A. Yes, I'm familiar with all of that. I was down there during this

23 period of time.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted?

Page 25283

1 JUDGE KWON: Let me just -- how is this relevant? Could you

2 explain this to me, Mr. Karadzic?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellency, even the

4 municipality is not included in the indictment, well, the Prosecution

5 wants to show the context, model of behaviour. This is the model of

6 behaviour for the second -- that man in the army, and his collaborator

7 was General Obradovic. It says the enclaves are full of weapons and the

8 troops are attacking us, and this is just prior to the crisis in Bihac.

9 And we could have entered Bihac if I hadn't signed a truce, but this

10 humanitarian appeal was issued prior to that event. And it also speaks

11 about our relationship to international war law and our respect of that

12 law and other matters for which the indictment has been brought here.

13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We will admit this, and then you have

14 ten minutes to conclude, Mr. Karadzic.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2129, Your Honours.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have a look at

17 1D05429.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. While waiting for that document, they did not respond to this

20 appeal, did they?

21 A. No, they didn't.

22 Q. Thank you. Now have a look at this. Four days later,

23 General Milovanovic reports that at the entrance to Bihac, he issues such

24 and such an order. It says in order to break up and destroy the enemy --

25 I don't have to read it through. We can all see this. He says commence

Page 25284

1 with operations against the enemy force.

2 And at item 2:

3 "Units should follow the previously given axis and tasks whereby

4 I most strictly prohibit the destruction of the town of Bihac. The town

5 must be liberated solely by infantry weapons," and so on and so forth.

6 Have a look at it. I won't read through all of it. And does

7 this correspond to the information you had and does this also correspond

8 to the way in which our army would conduct itself?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was this intended for the media or does it say "strictly

11 confidential" at the top?

12 A. The addresses have been listed. It says the 2nd Corps command,

13 Tactical Group 2, Tactical Group 3, Tactical Group 4, which were integral

14 parts of the 2nd Corps, the Main Staff of the VRS and all the corps, the

15 air force and anti-aircraft defence, for information. So it's an order

16 for these up on the top and for the others it's for their information.

17 Q. And it's strictly confidential, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be admitted.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2130.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at 1D5132.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This is your old area. The 8th of October, 1995,

Page 25285

1 Colonel Obradovic, and you are speaking with a general from the UN,

2 probably Solje. Who is that? Do you remember this conversation in which

3 you requested that they move, that the Muslim forces move away from the

4 UN, and you said you weren't targeting the UN but you were responding to

5 the Muslim side's action? Do you remember that conversation?

6 A. Well, not particularly, but I don't really know what the function

7 of this interlocutor of mine is, Solje. If the conversation was

8 intercepted, well, he was probably identified.

9 Q. Well, this is the 2nd Corps of the Muslim army and they said that

10 you told someone from the UN that you weren't targeting them but were

11 responding to action taken. And further down it says it would be good if

12 the Muslim positions weren't close to the UN, and the interlocutor says,

13 Very well, I've understood that.

14 It's the next page in the English version.

15 Were there such cases, they would approach the UN positions and

16 then open fire on us?

17 A. Yes. And then we would be accused of clashing with the peace

18 forces.

19 Q. Thank you. And the interlocutor says, Very well, I've

20 understood, and you then say good-bye to each other. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That was your response not my question when I said that they

23 would accuse us for these clashes with the UN. Isn't that the case?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 25286

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

2 JUDGE KWON: Would you explain again how this is relevant to the

3 case?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I've been indicted

5 for everything here, for sabotage of the UN mandate, amongst other

6 things, the mand -- for sabotage of the mandate of the humanitarian

7 organisations. I've been indicted for obstructing UNPROFOR.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, this is October 1995.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think that the relevant

10 period is up until the peace agreement. I think the indictment concerns

11 the period right up to the peace agreement, but the General was in a

12 position to notice that we were falsely accused because of tricks that

13 had been played. The model -- the model, the pattern, that term hasn't

14 been used in the transcript.

15 JUDGE KWON: General Obradovic, you confirmed that you were one

16 of the interlocutors in this conversation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll admit this.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2131, Your Honours.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we see the last

21 document, 1D5130.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Here, in 1994, on the 18th of November, at the time you were

24 already down there, the 3rd Corps confiscated some documents from the

25 VRS, and in the part in the box - could we scroll up - it says it has

Page 25287

1 been noticed that the commander of the men -- of the aggressor unit at

2 the time was Colonel Ljubomir Obradovic. And then further down it says

3 from the confiscated documents, one can see that there is one unit formed

4 of members of Muslim nationality, the name of which is Mesa Selimovic.

5 Is that the unit we've been speaking about? And the claim that

6 we would drive out the Muslims regardless of whether they were peaceful

7 or not, is that claim false, and did we move Muslims out of the army?

8 Did we drive them out of the army if they wanted to remain?

9 A. Give the existence of this unit and what I have already said

10 about Derventa, et cetera, the opposite conclusion can be drawn.

11 Q. Thank you. Could we see the next page.

12 Do we agree that here they are saying that the commander of the

13 Mesa Selimovic company is Nermin Mrdjanovic and a certain Ahmic? Are

14 they both Muslims?

15 A. Yes, but their information is not correct. Mrdjanovic, Nermin,

16 still works in the post office in Derventa, and I don't know Ahmic. I've

17 already mentioned the names of both commanders, though.

18 Q. Thank you. And Nermin Mrdjanovic lived with you throughout that

19 period?

20 A. Yes, he's from Dubocica.

21 Q. Thank you. Here it says that you issued on the 18th of June,

22 1992, instructions on how to treat POWs and on how to establish camps for

23 war prisoners. It was signed by Lieutenant-Colonel Ljubomir Obradovic.

24 And there was a supplement to that document on implementation of

25 international war law. This concerned treating prisoners of war and

Page 25288

1 civilians, and it was signed by the deputy commander for morale and so on

2 and so forth. Is this correct?

3 A. I didn't have camps of any kind, but the second part, that I

4 issued orders, instructions that concerned the treatment of POWs and

5 civilians, well, that is correct. I did write instructions for

6 subordinate units.

7 Q. Thank you. Could we have a look at the next page?

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we don't have time to further look at

9 this document. We'll mark this document for identification as

10 Exhibit D2143 -- 32, 2132, and it is time for you to put your last

11 question, Mr. Karadzic.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. General Obradovic, we've only seen each other on two occasions.

14 We didn't really know each other; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell the Chamber -- are you in a position to tell the

17 Chamber whether you ever noticed that I had an aggressive or intolerant

18 attitude toward our minorities? Was there any information to that effect

19 in the Main Staff?

20 A. No. I had no such information.

21 Q. Thank you, General.

22 JUDGE KWON: If it were not for the next case, the Chamber would

23 be sitting and we could continue, but we should continue next week, but

24 unfortunately we start with Mr. Erdemovic next week or we start with

25 General? I think we can start with the General first.