Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25800

 1                           Tuesday, 6 March 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7             Do you have something to raise, Mr. Robinson?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Will the witness take the solemn declaration,

10     please.

11             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

12     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  DEAN MANNING

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Manning.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon.

20                           Examination by Mr. Mitchell:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Manning.

22        A.   Good afternoon, sir.

23        Q.   Could you please state your full name?

24        A.   Your Honours, my full name is Dean Paul Manning, M-a-n-n-i-n-g.

25        Q.   What's your current job?

Page 25801

 1        A.   Your Honours, I'm a member of the Australian Federal Police and

 2     I'm the currently the senior police liaison officer based in Dubai in the

 3     United Arab Emirates.

 4        Q.   How long have you been a member of the Australian Federal Police?

 5        A.   I joined the Australian Federal Police in 1983.  I served

 6     predominantly in Canberra.  I also served with the United Nations in

 7     Cyprus, and in 1998 I served here at the Tribunal for six years.  I've

 8     also worked for United Nations Oil-for-Food inquiry in New York and

 9     returned to my police service in 2006.

10        Q.   The six years that you were at the Tribunal you were an

11     investigator with the Office of the Prosecutor; is that right?

12        A.   Your Honours, for four years I was an investigator with the

13     Srebrenica team, and for two years I was the team leader of the Croatia

14     investigations team, predominantly involved in the Milosevic trial.

15        Q.   Can you describe your duties and responsibilities for that four

16     years when you were an investigator on the Srebrenica team.

17        A.   Your Honours, I was a senior investigator involved in all aspects

18     of the investigation, including taking witness statements, interviewing

19     suspects, witnesses, and generally obtaining or verifying evidence, but

20     my primary duties was liaison with the Srebrenica exhumations and autopsy

21     project which was occurring in Bosnia.  I liaised with the exhumations

22     autopsy team and ultimately assisted the experts in that process in

23     preparing their reports for presentation to the Court, and I also

24     summarised the work of the teams in the field and presented evidence in

25     relation to several trials.

Page 25802

 1        Q.   Can you describe -- can you describe in a little bit more detail

 2     exactly what you did in this role, which sites you went to, which

 3     particular items you examined.  Give us an idea of that.

 4        A.   Your Honours, I was tasked with co-ordinating the activities of

 5     the investigations team with the exhumation autopsy teams.  Those teams

 6     were run by experts in their field, and I provided whatever assistance

 7     they would require, which also meant monitoring the exhumation process

 8     and the work at the mortuary.

 9             I visited all the sites connected to Srebrenica, including all

10     the execution points and all the mass graves, either after they'd been

11     exhumed, whilst they were being exhumed, or after.  I visited and was

12     present at the -- at the exhumation of 11 mass graves, and over a period

13     of six years I also visited those graves on a regular basis, including

14     when the Bosnian commission for missing persons was exhuming those

15     graves.

16             My role was also to examine the evidence that was being obtained

17     from that process.  I examined all the physical artefacts that were

18     recovered from the process in the field and in the mortuary.  This

19     included shell casings, blindfolds, ligatures, identification documents,

20     and material that showed a link not only to the identity of the victims

21     but connections to Srebrenica, connections to their killing in 1995, and

22     connections to DutchBat and also items which, as I said, showed

23     identification of the victims but also their religious affiliation, that

24     being Muslim or Islamic religion.

25        Q.   Can you tell us what types of experts were engaged by the OTP in

Page 25803

 1     this process and the experts that you liaised with.

 2        A.   The exhumations team was normally headed by an archaeologist,

 3     anthropologist, and he or she would have a number of archaeologists,

 4     anthropologists at the grave sites.  There would also be surveying

 5     experts, police photographers, police evidence handling officers.  At the

 6     mortuary there were anthropologists, forensic dentists, X-ray experts.

 7     And during the course of the investigation, we also employed experts such

 8     as ballistics examiners who examined the shell cases from the primary and

 9     secondary mass graves and were able to make links between those sites.

10     We also -- and I also worked with soil expert who examined soil from the

11     mass graves and the areas connected to executions.  We also had cloth,

12     explosives, and DNA experts who examined material from the mass graves

13     and the autopsy process.  We also had expert forensics teams examine some

14     of the execution points and an horologist who examined watches found on

15     the bodies within the mass graves.  I worked with all those experts.  I

16     helped them in providing material and access to sites.  I took them to

17     the sites.  I took material to them.  I reviewed their expert reports and

18     I summarised those expert reports for presentation in court.

19        Q.   The ICTY's forensic programme ran from 1996 to 2001; is that

20     right?

21        A.   That's correct, yes.

22        Q.   How many mass graves were identified during this period that were

23     suspected to be Srebrenica related?

24        A.   Your Honours, there were 43 mass graves directly connected to

25     Srebrenica during that part of the investigation, and I can say that

Page 25804

 1     they -- that is a conservative numbering process.  Some graves were made

 2     up of sub-graves, for instance, Glogova, but we would take a conservative

 3     view and number that grave as one large grave.  So 43 mass graves in

 4     total, including primary and secondary, but that numbering system was

 5     somewhat arbitrary.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us how many of those graves were exhumed by the

 7     ICTY?

 8        A.   We exhumed all the primary mass graves, 13 mass graves, and

 9     another -- in total, I think we exhumed 22 mass graves, some of which

10     were -- had been robbed, such as Cancari Road -- sorry, Zeleni Road,

11     Zeleni Jadar 2 mass grave and Hodzici 1 mass grave, which we believed had

12     not been used.

13        Q.   What happened to those other graves that had been identified but

14     not exhumed by the ICTY?

15        A.   Your Honours, a decision was taken in 2000, 2001, to hand over

16     responsibilities for the unexhumed graves to the Bosnian commission for

17     missing persons who were then asked by the Tribunal to exhume -- remove

18     the bodies from the graves, and that team was monitored by the

19     independent commission for missing persons -- International Commission

20     for Missing Persons, ICMP, and for part of 2001, the ICTY monitored the

21     exhumation of those graves.

22        Q.   Did you personally monitor --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Thank you.  Now you can continue.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Manning, did you personally monitor any of those exhumations

Page 25805

 1     done by the Bosnian authorities?

 2        A.   Yes, I did, Your Honours.  In fact, I was responsible for

 3     drafting the agreement and setting the process into place.  It was

 4     eventually agreed to by the Prosecutor.  I was present at the examination

 5     of the Ravnice 1 and 2 mass grave, primary mass grave, with the Bosnian

 6     commission for missing persons, with ICMP and with a very small team of

 7     ICTY staff.  I was also present during the exhumation of Cancari Road 11,

 8     and over the next two years I would visit sites as my travel in Bosnia

 9     permitted.

10        Q.   Now, are you aware in addition to the graves that were handed

11     over to the Bosnian authorities by the ICTY, are you aware whether

12     they -- those authorities have located and exhumed any additional graves

13     which are suspected to be Srebrenica related?

14        A.   Your Honours, I know that the Bosnian commission and ICMP have

15     continued to not only exhume the graves we handed over but locate further

16     graves which have been connected to Srebrenica, Bljeceva and other areas,

17     and I understand that their work with DNA has provided definitive links

18     to the Srebrenica missing.

19        Q.   Now, you have written three reports in 2000, 2001, and 2003 which

20     summarised the findings of the various experts who were engaged by the

21     OTP; is that right?

22        A.   That's correct, Your Honours.  Those summary reports also

23     included details of my own examinations of the artefacts and sites as

24     well as a combination of the reports which were conducted -- created by

25     the experts and were limited to a certain period of time.  So I linked

Page 25806

 1     those expert reports from the first exhumation process up until 2001.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, those are 65 ter numbers 2478,

 3     2479, and 3937, and I'd like to tender them now if I can.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Before -- you don't have any objections?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I actually do have an objection,

 6     Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall we hear from you first.  Mr. Robinson,

 8     yes.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, it's our belief that to admit

10     an expert report through the testimony of a non-expert witness --

11             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, what is tendered is an expert report.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it's quoting from expert reports.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So, we'll hear from that, yes.  Let's continue.

14     Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Anyway, it's our position that to admit either

16     portions of or an entire expert report through another witness violates

17     the provisions Rule 94 bis.  You've previously held that Rule 94 bis is

18     lex specialis with respect to reports when deciding that you would not

19     admit any of them under Rule 92 bis, and we think that the same principle

20     would apply.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Can I hear from you, Mr. Mitchell.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.  First, Mr. President, we're not

23     tendering any expert reports through Mr. Manning.  Mr. Manning has relied

24     on two types of expert reports as source material for his report.  One

25     are the reports of the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and the

Page 25807

 1     pathologists who have already testified here at trial and those reports

 2     were already in evidence.

 3             There's a second set of reports that Mr. Manning has relied on

 4     the conclusions from and has cited those conclusions in his report, and I

 5     would submit that Mr. Manning relying on those conclusions -- or his

 6     evidence relying on those conclusions is admissible for three reasons.

 7     First, he has very clearly identified --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you be more significant as regards the second

 9     set of reports.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.  I think, Mr. President, there's --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Are you referring to 2479?

12             MR. MITCHELL:  2479 is Mr. Manning's report, and in that he cites

13     to a number of underlying reports, the ballistic evidence, the horologist

14     report, the results of the examination of Pilica Dom and the Kravica

15     warehouse, the soil analysis report and the textiles report.

16             JUDGE KWON:  In which he participated?

17             MR. MITCHELL:  No.  They are independent expert reports which

18     reached a conclusion about the particular artefacts they were examining,

19     and Mr. Manning cites to that conclusion.

20             Mr. President, the expert reports are very clearly identified.

21     This was also -- this very issue was litigated in the Popovic case and

22     the Trial Chamber there said that Mr. Manning was entitled to rely on the

23     conclusion of reports that were not before the Trial Chamber, and in

24     these circumstances the fact that the underlying source reports weren't

25     in evidence would ultimately go to the weight of Mr. Manning's evidence,

Page 25808

 1     and that was at transcript page 18996 of the Popovic case.

 2             The last point I'd like to make is most, if not all, of the

 3     conclusions that Mr. Manning's relying on are already recognised as

 4     adjudicated facts in this case, and I can point you to adjudicated

 5     facts --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just before you --  it's okay.  Could you give me by

 7     way of example, probably my understanding is that he's also rely -- one

 8     of the materials he's relying on is US naval criminal investigative

 9     reports.  Am I correct?

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, correct.  He does cite to that report.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Or US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

12     report.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.  So --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's take the last one --

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.

16             JUDGE KWON:  -- of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

17     report.  Could you give an example how he's relying on that report in his

18     report?

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.  Mr. Manning, what his role was to send

20     the shell casings away to that bureau to analyse to see if they were

21     matches.  They reported back in a report and said the following shell

22     casings indicate they came from the same gun.  Mr. Manning has taken

23     those results and interpreted them and said those shell casings came from

24     these.  There are match shell casings from particular sites and then he

25     has drawn a conclusion of what that means to have shell casings fired

Page 25809

 1     from the same gun coming from a particular site.  For example, there are

 2     shells fired from the same gun that appear at Orahovac and then at

 3     Hodzici Road 3, 4, and 5, but Mr. Manning just simply takes the

 4     conclusion that these shell casings match and then he interprets that.

 5     But that conclusion that there are matching shell casings is also -- has

 6     been recognised as an adjudicated fact as well.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I was waiting for the conclusion of French

 8     translation.

 9             So in a nutshell, Mr. Manning sent all those shell casings he

10     collected to that US institution and he received the report from that

11     institution.

12             MR. MITCHELL:  That's correct.

13             JUDGE KWON:  And how about the US naval criminal investigative

14     reports on Kravica and Pilica?

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Those two sites were processed by the NCIS in

16     1996, and they took two sets of samples from -- from those two particular

17     sites.  They took swabs of suspected human remains and swabs of suspected

18     explosive residue.  Those samples were provided to the Office of the

19     Prosecutor, and then they were sent away to the Dutch forensic institute

20     for processing to see what results there would be.  Mr. Manning describes

21     simply that these samples were taken by the NCIS, they were sent away,

22     they were analysed by the Dutch forensic institute, and then these are

23     the results that came back.

24             JUDGE KWON:  A Dutch forensic report and US report the same one?

25             MR. MITCHELL:  No, they're different, Mr. President.

Page 25810

 1             JUDGE KWON:  You talked about this related to Dutch forensic

 2     report.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.  There is a report which is just the

 4     processing at the site at Pilica Dom, a report about the processing of

 5     Kravica warehouse and then there is a completely separate report from the

 6     Dutch forensic institute about where they analysed --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just deal with it -- with it one by one.  So US

 8     report, the US naval and criminal investigative reports on Kravica and

 9     Pilica was based upon the material collected during the --

10             MR. MITCHELL:  During the on-site investigation in 1996.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  How is Dutch forensic report related to

12     the investigation at the ICTY?

13             MR. MITCHELL:  The samples that were taken by the, NCIS were

14     given to the Office of the Prosecutor.  The Office of the Prosecutor then

15     sent them away to the Dutch forensic institute to be analysed.  So

16     those --

17             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, you said NCIS were given to the Office of

18     the Prosecutor.  What did you mean?

19             MR. MITCHELL:  The naval criminal investigative service took

20     those samples in 1996 from those sites and provided the samples to the

21     Office of the Prosecutor, the physical samples of suspected explosive

22     residue and suspected human remains.  Then the Office of the Prosecutor

23     sent those samples to the Dutch forensic institute, who came back and

24     said -- for example, at the Pilica Dom I think there were 15 suspected

25     explosive residue samples taken.  One of them came back from the

Page 25811

 1     Dutch forensic institute as positive.  So it's just two -- two different

 2     aspects of the one analysis of the same sample.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Are there any other reports than those I mentioned

 4     that Mr. Manning is relying on?

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think everything Mr. Manning

 6     relies on is -- I think, Professor Wright's reports are summarised, so

 7     all the six experts --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'm mentioning those evidence which is not in

 9     evidence before the Chamber.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  He has cited to conclusions by

11     Professor Antony Brown who is the soil expert, and I believe there are

12     two of those reports.  He has cited to a Dutch forensic institute report

13     on the explosive residue taken from the Pilica Dom and Kravica warehouse.

14     He's cited to a Dutch forensic institute report on the blood samples

15     collected from those sites and the Grbavci school, a study of watches by

16     Mr. Mark Mills, a Dutch forensic institute textile report on the

17     ligatures and blindfolds, a US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

18     report on the Kravica warehouse -- sorry, report on shell casings.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That's what -- included in what I mentioned,

20     yes.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  The two NCIS reports on the Kravica warehouse and

22     the Pilica Dom.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  And if I could just mention, Mr. President, most

25     of these conclusions have been recognised as adjudicated facts.

Page 25812

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give me an example -- examples of

 2     conclusions?

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  I can give you -- adjudicated fact 1703 says:

 4             "Investigation into the cartridges discovered at the grave site

 5     revealed that the cartridges found in the grave itself matched with those

 6     found along the road at the grave side, indicating that the victims in

 7     the grave were shot at the grave site."

 8             That's an adjudicated fact about Cerska.

 9             And if we go to adjudicated fact 1717, the OTP -- this is about

10     Kravica warehouse:

11             "The OTP sent a team of experts to examine the Kravica warehouse

12     on 30 September 1996.  Experts determined the presence of bullet strikes

13     explosive residue, bullets and shell cases, as well as human blood,

14     bones, and tissue adhering to the walls and floor of the building."

15             And there's quite a few of -- facts like that.  Number 1721,

16     1788, 1800, 1822, 1855, 1861, 1863, 1879, 1889 -- I think -- 1886,

17     1880 -- and 18 -- I think that's it, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Would you like to reply, Mr. Robinson?

19             Yes, Mr. Mitchell, do you have anything --

20             MR. MITCHELL:  Nothing else to add, no.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  Well, I would like

23     to apply -- first of all, I would like to call your attention to the

24     scheme of Rule 94 bis which envisions that expert findings will be

25     presented to the Trial Chamber first by way of notice by the Prosecution,

Page 25813

 1     and then if the Defence challenges those, then they have the right to

 2     test them in court, and that was the basis your Ruling under 92 bis that

 3     experts reports wouldn't be admissible so the Defence would have a right

 4     to challenge them.  So what's being done in this instance takes away our

 5     right to challenge those reports, since this witness could do nothing

 6     more than repeat the findings of the report.  He's not an expert in any

 7     of those fields to be able to ask about the basis of those findings.  So

 8     it's our position that this is the same rationale as you rejected the

 9     92 bis experts that you should also reject admitting the findings --

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, 92 bis expert.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  You said that they were -- you would not

12     allow expert reports or expert testimony to be admitted by way of

13     Rule 92 bis.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Now I understand.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  I was speaking in a little shorthand.  In any

16     event, our first point is essentially by bringing them in through a

17     witness other than the expert they're circumventing Rule 94 bis which is

18     lex specialis.  Secondly, I call your attention to the Barney Kelly

19     decision in the Milosevic case about which I know you are very familiar

20     with, and then they said that it was not proper for an investigator to

21     come and repeat the information given to investigators in the field by

22     witnesses, and essentially this is also what's going on here.  This

23     investigator is repeating the expert's conclusions, and we think that the

24     decision to allow that would run afoul of the decision in the Milosevic

25     case on the testimony of Barney Kelly.

Page 25814

 1             Finally with respect to adjudicated facts, we don't think --

 2     although, first of all, we wonder why it's necessary for the Prosecution

 3     to introduce evidence when they have adjudicated facts on the very same

 4     point.  Even if they're allowed to do that, we don't see how that would

 5     affect the admissibility.  The question is whether evidence from an

 6     expert is admissible through the testimony of some other witness, and

 7     it's either admissible or it's not, and the question of whether those

 8     same pieces of information have been judicially noticed we think is not

 9     relevant on the issue of admissibility.

10             Thank you.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I can respond very briefly.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before that, could we agree upon the fact that

13     Mr. Manning is not appearing as an expert?

14             MR. MITCHELL:  That's correct.  Mr. Manning is not an expert.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

16             MR. MITCHELL:  Just very briefly.  I think the Milosevic decision

17     is very clear - this is the decision of 30 September 2002 - that

18     summarising evidence is admissible, and what the decision says in

19     paragraph 21, that in every case the basic issue is whether the material

20     being summarised is itself admissible.  And in this case, I would submit,

21     it's clearly admissible.  It's clearly identified by Mr. Manning.

22             The second point I would make is Mr. Manning, while he

23     necessarily refers to the conclusions of these experts, what the purpose

24     of his testimony is is to explain or to put them into context how -- how

25     those conclusion were is reached.  So taking the shell casing example,

Page 25815

 1     where those shell casings came from, how they were sent, what was asked

 2     to be done, and then what those findings mean to say that shell casings

 3     from particular sites match; Mr. Manning then interprets that and turns

 4     it into -- or puts his own analysis on it and that's what he's presenting

 5     to the Court.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let me be clear one thing about -- you are not

 7     tendering the report itself, for example, US Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco

 8     and Firearms report, or NCIS report, separately.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  They're not being tendered at all, Mr. President.

10     Mr. Manning's three reports --

11             JUDGE KWON:  He's relying on those reports or he's citing the

12     conclusion --

13             MR. MITCHELL:  He's citing to the conclusions of those reports,

14     but we're not tendering the underlying expert reports --

15             JUDGE KWON:  How can you [overlapping speakers]

16             MR. MITCHELL:  [Overlapping speakers] source material.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry.  I'm overlapping.  How would you

18     distinguish from the submission of Mr. Robinson that by doing so we are

19     encroaching the spirit of Rule 94 bis?

20             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think that Rule applies to the

21     expert reports themselves.  I think Mr. Manning is entitled to cite -- so

22     long as it's clearly identified, he's entitled to cite to another

23     document so we know where his report is coming from, and I don't think

24     that is circumventing Rule 94 at all, because we're not seeking to tender

25     those underlying expert reports through him.

Page 25816

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Mitchell, he's entitled to cite and rely on the

 2     reports?

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, Your Honour.  I believe he's entitled to cite

 4     those conclusions, clearly identify where they're coming from and rely on

 5     them and explain to them from his own investigative experience and

 6     analysis what those conclusions mean.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Now, turn to you, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  In rebuttal to that, Mr. President --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I'm pausing.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  Sorry.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I will hear from you, if anything.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  I just wanted to say how can you distinguish the

13     findings from his testimony once -- because his testimony assumes that

14     the findings are true.  It goes -- for example, shell casings.  It

15     assumes that the shell casings match, before he can go on to explain what

16     the significance of that is.  So I don't see how the Prosecutor can make

17     that distinction.  There -- the results of the expert report are being

18     assumed to be true; otherwise, his testimony is meaningless.  So I think

19     that that's a distinction without a difference in terms of the argument.

20             Anyway, I'm ready to answer any questions you might have.

21             JUDGE KWON:  For example, 65 ter number 2478 and 3937 are, in my

22     understanding, summaries of forensic evidence by Dr. Wright, Peccerelli,

23     Clark or Baraybar.  As regards those part, given the complexity and

24     technicality or the size themselves, would the Chamber not be assisted by

25     hearing from Mr. Manning as to how to understand or how to read those

Page 25817

 1     voluminous evidence in a brief manner?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Absolutely, yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So you do not oppose to that part?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Given that the evidence has already been admitted

 5     from the experts themselves, we don't oppose this witness assisting the

 6     Chamber with understanding that evidence, since we've had a chance to

 7     test it.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Given the timing, the Chamber will take a break now,

10     a bit early break.  So we'll break for 25 minutes and resume -- we will

11     resume at 3.35.

12                           --- Recess taken at 3.07 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 3.46 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, having considered your submission and

15     the fact that you do not object to the admission of two of the tendered

16     reports, namely 65 ter numbers 2478 and 3937, the Chamber has decided to

17     admit them into evidence.  As discussed earlier, they simply refer to and

18     summarises the reports already in evidence in this case which the accused

19     has had an opportunity to challenge through the cross-examination of

20     other experts.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Now, with respect to 65 ter 2479, Mr. Mitchell, the

23     Chamber would like to know if there are any parts of that report that

24     refer to reports or documents already in evidence in this case.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think a large -- the vast

Page 25818

 1     majority of that report cites to the archaeological, anthropological and

 2     pathology reports that are already in evidence.  There's only selected

 3     portions of that report that cite to these other expert reports.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.  In that case, the Chamber

 5     has decided to admit only those portions of the report which refer to

 6     reports and documents already in evidence in this case.

 7             With respect to the remaining portions, the Chamber would like

 8     the Prosecution to redact those from the report.  This, of course,

 9     assumes that the redactions would not make the whole report

10     incomprehensible.  If they do, the Prosecution should bring that to the

11     Chamber's attention.

12             In addition, the Chamber would allow the Prosecution to discuss

13     with the witness his involvement in obtaining the information and the

14     reports cited in 65 ter 2479.  The Prosecution can then consider bringing

15     the person or persons who prepared that information and produced the

16     related reports.  This will then enable the accused to challenge the

17     findings in accordance with the Rules.

18             That's the Ruling.

19             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President, for that Ruling.  I

21     just want to point out that in 65 ter number 2478, on pages 5 and 6,

22     there are references to the results of the Netherlands Forensic Institute

23     textile report and then also the ballistics report on page 6.  So I would

24     ask that you apply the same Ruling for 2479 to those of 2478.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for that information.

Page 25819

 1             The same Ruling will apply to that part as well.

 2             Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Mr. Manning, I want to ask you very briefly about two additional

 5     reports in addition to the three that we've been talking about.  In 2005,

 6     you reviewed the work the Bosnian authorities and the ICMP and you

 7     produced two reports summarising their findings; is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   I don't want to get into the details of those two reports, but

10     can you just very briefly describe the process that you went through of

11     reviewing the work of the Bosnians and the ICMP?

12        A.   Your Honours, briefly, I was tasked with examining the records

13     from the ICMP exhumations and also the DNA analysis conducted by the

14     laboratories with the intention of identifying those records that they

15     had of identified people which related to mass graves we had identified

16     as being connected to Srebrenica.  On the basis of that, I collated the

17     figures and the numbers that they had presented for DNA identifications

18     and linked those to the primary and secondary mass graves that the ICTY

19     were aware were from Srebrenica.

20        Q.   And is it correct that this process that you started in 2005 of

21     analysing and reporting on this work has now been taken over by another

22     investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   And can you tell us the name of that other investigator?

25        A.   I'm sorry, I don't recall his last name, Dusan.

Page 25820

 1        Q.   Dusan Janc?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Mr. Manning, I want to move to a different area now and discuss

 4     the blindfolds and ligatures.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can have 65 ter 16274 in e-court.

 6        Q.   First --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before we move on, could we give the

 8     number to the reports we -- --

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  The three reports?

10             JUDGE KWON:  We admitted.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.

12             JUDGE KWON:  With that caveat, there's no objection to the

13     admission of those three.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall we give the number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  65 ter 02478 will be

17     Exhibit P4502.  65 ter 03937 will be Exhibit P4503.  And 65 ter 02479

18     will be P4504.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And in your notification that you were

20     minded to -- you were alluding that you would tender the other expert

21     reports but it's clear that you're not tendering them now.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I simply listed them in case I used

23     them, but the intention was not to tender them.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Now it's clear.  Let's move on.  Yes,

25     Mr. Mitchell.

Page 25821

 1             MR. MITCHELL:

 2        Q.   Mr. Manning, can you tell us who made this chart and can you

 3     explain to us what it means.

 4        A.   Your Honours, I produced this chart, this table.  The first part

 5     of the table is relating to ligatures and the then-exhumed mass graves,

 6     and the bottom table, which you can't see completely, is the same sort of

 7     table related to blindfolds.

 8             Because the blindfolds and ligatures were located not only during

 9     the exhumation but at the autopsy and examination of the body, the

10     reports from, for instance, Professor Wright would list a number of

11     blindfolds for a grave but he would acknowledge in his report that that

12     was not a complete listing, and the same for the mortuary, because by the

13     time the bodies had arrived, on occasions the blindfolds or ligatures had

14     either fallen off the body or the body had become disassociated.

15             I physically examined every item that was listed as a blindfold

16     or a ligature or could have been a blindfold or a ligature.  I physically

17     examined the item.  I then sought the documentation for that item such as

18     a photograph in situ on a body, the associated photographic logs, the

19     evidence logs, the autopsy reports, observations by pathologists, crime

20     scene officers and other experts.  And I then made account of the

21     blindfolds, where they were located, from what graves, and produced this

22     table to -- to indicate the conservative numbering of how many blindfolds

23     and how many ligatures were located within the graves, where they were

24     located within the grave and which graves they were located in.

25        Q.   Now, the details of each specific blindfold and ligature is in

Page 25822

 1     your three reports; is that right?  The 2000, 2001, and 2003 reports.

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Associated with each of those reports was

 3     annexes which had the listing of the blindfolds and the ligatures,

 4     including the photographic references, including photographs in situ on

 5     the body in the mortuary, and also linked to those three reports were the

 6     expert reports which included the autopsy and exhumation accounts related

 7     to those blindfolds and ligatures.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Mitchell, again.

 9     There's an administrative matter to consult the parties.

10             The Chamber was just approached by other -- other Chamber asking

11     whether we can swap the sitting into, i.e., whether we can sit in the

12     afternoon tomorrow.  So is there a problem from the Prosecution?

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, Mr. Manning has to be on a flight

14     at, I believe, 2.00 p.m. tomorrow, and that's nonnegotiable, so in the

15     event --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Unless we are able to finish him today.

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Yeah.  Hopefully we're able to finish today, but

18     if not, he could only go for, I imagine, a couple of hours at the most in

19     the morning.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We have -- given the Ruling we just made, would it

21     be, by any chance, possible on the part of the Defence to conclude the

22     cross-examination by today?  But before that, how long would it take for

23     your examination-in-chief?

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think I probably have half an

25     hour left, maybe 45 minutes at the most.

Page 25823

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am sorry, but indeed there are a

 3     great many details that reveal the essence of the matter, and these

 4     details have to be presented, and they have to be put to the witness.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  That doesn't tell us how many hours you need for

 6     your cross.

 7             Just a second.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Whatever the time may be allotted to the Defence,

10     we'll stick to the original plan in terms of sitting.  We are sitting

11     tomorrow in the morning.

12             Yes.  Let's continue, Mr. Mitchell.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   So, Mr. Manning, just to be clear, the conclusion of the numbers

15     in this table, the total of 423 ligatures and 448 blindfolds, they're

16     your numbers?

17        A.   Yes, very much.  If you took the expert reports - particularly

18     Richard Wright, Professor Haglund, Professor Clark and others - if you

19     look at the number of blindfolds and ligatures in those reports, they

20     were not the same and they were not these numbers.  These are the result

21     of my examination of -- of all aspects of the exhumation autopsy process

22     over the period 1996 to 2001, 2003.

23        Q.   Now, just sticking with your 2000 report for a minute, there are

24     two volumes of photographs that go with that report, is that correct,

25     which show there's a photograph of each blindfold and each ligature?

Page 25824

 1        A.   That's correct, yes.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender those two

 3     volumes.  That's 65 ter 23631 and 23632.  We move to add them to our

 4     65 ter list but they're a composite of four numbers that were already

 5     listed on our 65 ter list.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, they will be admitted into evidence.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P4505 and 4506 respectively,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd also like to tender the chart

13     that's on the screen in front of us.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4507, Your Honours.

16             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can have 65 ter 23634 in e-court.  And,

17     Mr. President, this is a composite image that we also applied for leave

18     to add to our 65 ter list, and it was incorrectly described in that

19     request.  This contains all the photographs from the 2000 report that are

20     in those two volumes.  It also contains the photographs from

21     Mr. Manning's two subsequent reports.  So this is -- this is a photograph

22     of everything in those three reports.  So we'd ask for leave to add that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  It's granted.

Page 25825

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And you're going to ask some questions --

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  I'll ask a couple of questions.

 4        Q.   Mr. Manning, if you can tell us --

 5             JUDGE KWON:

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask for something?

 7     Could they be numbered in the same way like in these books?  They don't

 8     have the same numbers, so it's very hard to identify them.  So can they

 9     have visible numbers, please?

10             JUDGE KWON:  At the moment I don't follow, but could you assist

11     us, Mr. Mitchell?

12             MR. MITCHELL:  I'm not entirely sure what Mr. Karadzic is asking,

13     if he's asking for the artefact number of each of the photographs or

14     if -- if he wants them numbered 1 through 448.  I'm not sure.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you deal with this chart with Mr. Manning

16     first and then see what we can do about it.

17             MR. MITCHELL:

18        Q.   First, Mr. Manning, can you tell us who compiled this composite

19     image?

20        A.   I -- I compiled this image.

21        Q.   And even though we've just talked about it, can you tell us

22     what's on it?  Where are these artefacts from?

23        A.   Your Honours, the document itself is -- is a -- a poster-sized

24     image.  There's also one for ligatures.  It shows a photographic image of

25     each blindfold from each of the primary and the related secondary mass

Page 25826

 1     graves.  So if you see the first label, it says, "Branjevo Farm, Pilica."

 2     There are two blindfolds, two separate blindfolds which were located at

 3     the Branjevo military farm.  And then each of the images from Cancari

 4     Road 12 represent individual blindfolds, et cetera, et cetera, through

 5     all the primary and secondary mass graves.

 6             Some images show a blindfold within the grave loose.  Others show

 7     a blindfold on the head after body, either at the mortuary or in the

 8     grave, and some show that a blindfold or ligature at the mortuary being

 9     photographed after it was cleaned, but each image shows a separate

10     blindfold or ligature.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So this is a composite of images that we have

12     already in evidence.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  What would be the point of this -- having this

15     composite?

16             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I can answer that.  This is

17     actually -- it's additional.  It contains some additional images which

18     are not in the books.  So, for example, Lazete 1 and Lazete 2C are

19     contained in this composite, but they're not contained in the two

20     volumes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The two volumes of -- his report.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.  The two volumes just go with the 2000

23     report.  This composite image is all three reports.  So there's certainly

24     some overlap.  Everything that's in those two volumes will be on this

25     image, but because --

Page 25827

 1             JUDGE KWON:  My question is any images that we have this in

 2     composite image should appear in one of the forensic reports somewhere in

 3     our evidence.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Many of them will.  I couldn't guarantee that all

 5     of them would have made their way into a report of the pathologist or the

 6     archaeologist, but they certainly would have originated at that time.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And you haven't answered my question as to the point

 8     of having this composite image --

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  The point --

10             JUDGE KWON:  -- in addition to images that we already have.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  The point is simply, Mr. President, these

12     artefacts are the subject of specific challenge in this case, and we want

13     you -- or we'd like to offer you images of every single one of them so

14     you can analyse exactly what they are and reach that determination

15     yourself and this is a way of putting every single blindfold and every

16     single ligature in one place to look at.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's continue.  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Can we look at 65 ter 23635.

19        Q.    You mentioned a similar composite image of ligatures.  Is this

20     what you were referring to?

21        A.   Yes, this is the same type of image.  It represents -- each photo

22     is a single ligature from the mass graves.  There's no duplication, if

23     you will.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like to tender those -- those two images,

25     Mr. President.

Page 25828

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't object, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  They will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P4508 and P4509 respectively,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:

 7        Q.   And your reports list a number of other artefacts which were

 8     recovered from the graves, including identification documents and items

 9     of -- are believed to be of religious significance.  Can you tell us why

10     you considered it important to detail those particular groups of

11     artefact?

12        A.   The identification material including the documents, photographs,

13     and artefacts were considered very important to the Tribunal in (a)

14     connecting the mass graves to Srebrenica to July of 1995 and the events

15     following the fall of Srebrenica.  They were also very important to

16     hopefully provide identification of the victims, for the forensic process

17     but also for the families of the victims.  And I would routinely examine

18     items in the field and at the mortuary, and I would regularly attend the

19     mortuary, examine all those items, physically examine them and examine

20     the documentation with them.  I would then decide which items were

21     conveyed to the ICTY either for further examination such as the shell

22     cases, blindfold and ligatures and the watches, or I would organise the

23     return of those items that were appropriate to the Bosnian authorities to

24     PHR, Physicians for Human Rights, who were seeking to identify the

25     bodies.  And in the case of the religious items, I examined all the

Page 25829

 1     artefacts that were obtained during the several-year process and sought

 2     to identify any religious or other groupings for those individuals

 3     whose -- who had owned those artefacts.  I found a significant number of

 4     religious artefacts.  The only religion that I could equate to those

 5     artefacts was Islam in the majority of cases.  There was no items that

 6     showed a connection to any other religious group.

 7        Q.   Now, you describe in various parts of your reports some

 8     particular artefacts that were recovered from Glogova, Zeleni Jadar 5 and

 9     6, and Ravnice.  Can you first tell us a bit about the Ravnice grave and

10     what -- what the artefacts were that were found at that location?

11        A.   Your Honours, I was present in the field when the Ravnice grave

12     was first identified.  I was also present when it was first exhumed as

13     Ravnice 1, and then I was present the following year when Ravnice 2,

14     which is effectively the same grave, was exhumed.  I personally saw the

15     artefacts that were located within the grave amongst the bodies.  Those

16     artefacts included items that were indistinguishable from items at the

17     Kravica warehouse which is approximately 8 kilometres away from the

18     Ravnice primary grave.  Those items included pieces of the masonry and

19     physical structure of the warehouse, painted pieces of concrete, pieces

20     of metal, pieces of machinery, and in one instance a piece of foam

21     painted lettering which was a positive physical match for a piece of the

22     same signage which was on the Kravica warehouse.  So effectively, a piece

23     of a sign had been knocked off the Kravica warehouse and then had been

24     transported to the Ravnice primary mass graves and was within the bodies,

25     a group of bodies.

Page 25830

 1        Q.   What about the artefacts at Glogova and Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6?

 2        A.   Again, I was present not only at the Kravica warehouse on

 3     numerous occasions, but I was present when Glogova 2 primary mass graves

 4     was opened and Glogova 1.  I was present when Zeleni Jadar 5 was exhumed

 5     and opened, and I was present and located with the team Zeleni Jadar 6.

 6             In each of those primary and secondary graves, there were

 7     significant numbers of items that were indistinguishable from items at

 8     the Kravica warehouse.  In effect, there were pieces of the warehouse in

 9     the primary mass graves of Glogova 1 and 2, and there were pieces of the

10     warehouse in the secondary mass graves of Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6.

11        Q.   Can you tell us then, based on the presence of these particular

12     artefacts, what's the connection or the sequence between the warehouse,

13     Glogova, and the two graves at Zeleni Jadar, Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6?

14        A.   The Kravica warehouse is an execution point where a significant

15     number of prisoners were killed.  Those -- the bodies of the victims were

16     then transported from the warehouse by heavy machinery.  In doing so,

17     that heavy machinery knocked down part of the door and frame and wall of

18     the warehouse.  That material was transported with the bodies; in one

19     group to the Ravnice prime mass graves and another group to the Glogova

20     primary mass graves, which is about 8 kilometres from the Kravica

21     warehouse.

22             Several months later, the primary mass graves of Glogova 1 and 2

23     were opened, and some of the contents, that is the bodies, removed by

24     heavy machinery, and those bodies were then transported to the newly

25     created secondary mass graves along Zeleni Jadar Road, and they were

Page 25831

 1     located within Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6, and from my work with the

 2     Bosnian commission, I saw similar artefacts in the other Zeleni Jadar

 3     graves, 1 to 4, and also at the Ravnice site.  They were all effectively

 4     connected.  One was an execution point.  Three were mass primary graves,

 5     and the remainder were mass secondary graves.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I have 65 ter number 23633 in e-court.

 7             Mr. President, this is another exhibit which we asked to add to

 8     our 65 ter list.  It's a composite book of images and maps, every one of

 9     which is individually already on the 65 ter list.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Ah, yes.

11             Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, that's granted.

14             MR. MITCHELL:

15        Q.   Mr. Manning, have you had an opportunity to review all of the

16     aerials that are in this book?

17        A.   I have.

18        Q.   Did you -- or can you tell us, did you have an opportunity to

19     review them during your investigation?

20        A.   Your Honours, we made great use of the aerial images provided by

21     the US government.  We used them to identify the primary and secondary

22     mass graves.  I used them on many, many occasions to assist in locating

23     the graves.

24        Q.   If we can go to image number 20 in the hard copy, 32 in e-court.

25     Can you tell us what we're looking at in this image?

Page 25832

 1        A.   Your Honours, this is a composite of two images which have been

 2     overlapped.  I was responsible for producing the overlapped images and

 3     the yellow marking on those images.

 4             They show that Zeleni Jadar secondary mass graves from

 5     Zeleni Jadar 1 through to 6; and, in fact, Zeleni Jadar 1 should be

 6     Zeleni Jadar 1A, and there is Zeleni Jadar 1B.  I was present when we

 7     located that grave and probed its contents.  So effectively, there are

 8     seven secondary mass graves in the Zeleni Jadar Road area.

 9        Q.   Did you personally visit each of these sites?

10        A.   I've been to every site.  As I say, I was present when 1B was

11     located.  I've been present when Zeleni 2 was examined.  I've been

12     present when Zeleni Jadar 5 was opened.  I've been present at 3 and 4 and

13     examined the area, and I was present at and part of the exhumation of

14     Zeleni Jadar 6.

15        Q.   Let's go to the next page, image number 2133 in e-court.

16             You mentioned there should be a Zeleni Jadar 1A and B.  If I can

17     get the usher to assist you, if you could describe that in more detail

18     and mark the image if -- if need be.

19        A.   Your Honours, this is a single image which is made up of two

20     images side by side.  That joint image was provided to the ICTY.  I

21     marked the right-hand pane Zeleni Jadar 1.  The left-hand pane shows the

22     area on the 7th of September, and you can see that by the 2nd of October

23     two areas had been excavated, one marked Zeleni Jadar 1, and if you look

24     at this area of the map, that is the grave site that we identified and

25     probed and labelled Zeleni Jadar 1B.  It hadn't previously been examined

Page 25833

 1     because it is believed to be within a heavily mined area.  So we mined a

 2     path to the area and examined the mass graves.  But you can see that on

 3     the 7th of September, 1995, there were no mass graves in the area, and by

 4     the 2nd of October, 1995, what we now know to be two mass graves had been

 5     created.

 6        Q.   Are the two graves we see in the right-hand shot, were they

 7     opened or closed at the time this was taken?

 8        A.   Your Honours, I'm not an expert in photo examinations, but from

 9     using these images, I believe that Zeleni Jadar 1 is open in -- in that

10     view, and also Zeleni Jadar 1B.  And having examined particularly 1B, it

11     had a very small area.  It was a trench cut into a flat area, and I

12     believe that this shows the mass graves as they'd been created and

13     opened.

14        Q.   Can you mark on the top one 1A, 1B on the bottom where you've

15     circled and then initial and date it with today's date, the 6th of March.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like to tender that, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This image will be admitted as a separate

19     exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4510, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  While not important, do you have the date of the

22     previous image, Mr. Mitchell, the image 20?

23             MR. MITCHELL:  We can go back a page in the book.

24        Q.   The composite image that you compiled, Mr. Manning, do you know

25     what date is depicted in those two composite images?

Page 25834

 1        A.   Your Honours, I know from working on this document that those

 2     images were produced without the date on them, but they are effectively

 3     the same images that you see in the previous -- in the subsequent

 4     photographs.  When we requested that image, the -- the dates were not

 5     included, but they were taken from the other images that you see

 6     following that.  So ...

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But you confirm this statement by Mr. Mitchell that

 8     this is a composite image that you compiled based upon the images

 9     provided to you?

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Please continue.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can go to page 22 in the hard copy, 34 in

14     e-court.

15        Q.   In the previous image we were looking at Zeleni Jadar 1A and 1B

16     on the 7th of September, the 2nd of October.  And if you can now describe

17     what we can see in this particular image.

18        A.   Your Honours, again a split view, and this shows a date range in

19     October of 1995.  If you look at the 18th of October on the left-hand

20     pane, you can see, certainly in the hard copy, it looks that the graves

21     are still at least not covered up, still open, and if you look at the

22     right-hand pane on the 20th of October, 1995, you can see that the graves

23     have been covered in.  And from examination of these documents

24     previously, I believe that you can see vehicle marks on the soil where

25     heavy machinery has sealed up the graves and flattened the ground in both

Page 25835

 1     Zeleni Jadar 1A and 1B.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us about Zeleni Jadar 2?  Was there anything

 3     significant about that particular grave?

 4        A.   Zeleni Jadar 2 was created very, very close to a small stream.

 5     In fact, it was on the edge of the stream.

 6        Q.   Perhaps -- my apologies.  Perhaps we could go over to the next

 7     page and at page 23 in the hard copy and 35 in e-court.

 8             I apologise for interrupting you.  If you could then continue

 9     your explanation.

10        A.   When you -- when you see that image, you can see that the white

11     stripe across the middle of both photographs is, in fact, a dirt roadway.

12     The grave can be clearly seen on the right-hand pane, and if you like,

13     where the tip of the arrow is is the area where the river or small creek

14     is.  That mass graves was in an area that I had -- I have seen flooded,

15     and when it was examined by Professor Wright, he found that it contained

16     some human remains, scattered human remains.

17             I went to the site with Dr. Wright, and he advised me that it was

18     his belief that that mass graves had been robbed, that is, that the

19     bodies had been removed, and that it was an indication that there was

20     somewhere a tertiary grave which contained those bodies.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  Could we go to image 31 in the hard copy, 44 in

22     e-court.

23        Q.   And if you can explain what we're looking at in this particular

24     image.

25        A.   Again, this is an image which I created.  It shows three separate

Page 25836

 1     photographs overlaid.  It shows the Hodzici Road or the area we called

 2     Hodzici Road, and mass graves 1 through to 7, secondary mass graves.

 3        Q.   Did you visit all of these seven sites?

 4        A.   I did.  I was present at one stage when the Bosnian commission

 5     were exhuming, I think Hodzici 7.  I went to each of the sites with

 6     Dr. Wright and with other members of the team, and particularly we

 7     examined Hodzici 1, which Professor Wright believed to have been dug as a

 8     primary -- as a secondary mass graves and not utilised completely as a

 9     grave.

10        Q.   Professor Wright fully exhumed Hodzici Road 3, 4, and 5; is that

11     right?

12        A.   That's correct, yes.

13        Q.   And are you aware of what the results of any subsequent

14     examination of Hodzici Road 1 are?

15        A.   It's my understanding that the Bosnian commission and ICMP

16     examined Hodzici Road 1 and, in fact, found a number of bodies within

17     that grave.  It had not been completed filled, but they did find a number

18     of bodies connected to Srebrenica in that mass graves.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Can we go to image 42 in the hard copy and 56 in

20     e-court.

21        Q.   And just to be clear for the record, we're looking at an image

22     with -- a summary image of mass graves for each of the individual graves

23     in this book.  There's a series of photos related to each grave; is that

24     right?

25        A.   Yes.  In each grave area I've tried to produce a similar document

Page 25837

 1     to show not only the aerial image but highlight the area of the graves.

 2     In this instance these are the Liplje Road secondary mass graves.

 3     Liplje 1 was connected to the dam at Petkovci.  And, to my knowledge,

 4     another three mass graves connected to Srebrenica have been located in

 5     this road, and in fact by the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons, and

 6     in fact I was present when we examined an area with the commission which

 7     was later found to be a mass graves.

 8        Q.   Is it Liplje 1 that's connected to the dam or on another site?

 9        A.   Sorry, Liplje 2.

10        Q.   Now, if we can go to image 48 in the hard copy and 63 in e-court.

11     And if you can explain again what we're looking at here.

12        A.   In the same manner, I've tried to highlight to the Court the

13     aerial images which show the secondary mass graves.  I'm responsible for

14     those yellow images being placed on the document.  The red image was not

15     placed there by myself.  And I'm aware that a further mass grave was

16     identified on Cancari Road, and it's numbers Cancari Road 13, and, in

17     fact, it's closer to Cancari Road 1.  I'm also aware that the Bosnian

18     commission, when they exhumed these mass graves, named them in a

19     different manner to us.  So some of the mass graves on Cancari Road are

20     called Kamenica, et cetera, by the Bosnian commission.

21        Q.   Okay.  I want to look at one particular example which the

22     Trial Chamber is familiar with, and that's Cancari Road 12, but if I can

23     start off -- if we can go to image 18 in the hard copy and 29 in e-court.

24             And just to lay a little bit of background, in your 2000 report,

25     at page 16, you say that the aerial imagery of Branjevo Farm was first

Page 25838

 1     released on the 21st of March, 1996; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   And the grave was then exhumed later that same year by

 4     Dr. Haglund.

 5        A.   That's correct, Dr. Haglund and his team from PHR exhumed a

 6     number of bodies from that primary mass graves.

 7        Q.   If you can just briefly describe what we're looking at here on

 8     image number 18.

 9        A.   Your Honours, I've -- I've been to the military farm on a number

10     of occasions.  If you look at the vertical line which runs from the top

11     third of the document to a group of buildings and roadways, that's --

12     it's now -- it's now destroyed, but it was then a farm.  It was, to my

13     knowledge, a pig farm.  It consisted of a number of farm buildings.  And

14     if you moved to the left of the image, there's trackways and paths of

15     vehicles, and the area marked "Burial area" is in fact the

16     Branjevo military farm primary mass grave exhumed by Professor Haglund,

17     Dr. Haglund.

18        Q.   And that marking "Burial area," that was made by the provider; is

19     that right?

20        A.   That's correct.  It was not made by ICTY.

21        Q.   Now, the image has a date of 21st of September, 1995.  If we can

22     go to the next page, page 19 in the hard copy, 30 in e-court.

23             We're now looking at an image with the date of 27 September 1995,

24     and if you can describe what we're looking at now.

25        A.   Your Honours, it's the same area and you can see more clearly the

Page 25839

 1     farm buildings.  In the area, if you follow the tracks around, you'll

 2     find the tracks are more defined in this image, and from my examination

 3     of these images, I believe that the -- the title there indicates that --

 4     that there was a disturbance of that mass graves, that the mass graves

 5     has been opened and is in the process of being robbed, if you like.

 6        Q.   And again, those white markings are the conclusion of the

 7     provider?

 8        A.   Yes, they are, and I -- I don't -- I don't see a backhoe or front

 9     loader on that image.  I see them marked that way.  What we used -- what

10     I used this image for was locating the area of the mass graves and the

11     execution point.

12        Q.   If we go to image 71 now, 86 in e-court.  Is there anything

13     significant about what we're looking at here?  Or can you tell us what

14     area this is in?

15        A.   This is, if you like, the before photograph of Cancari Road 12

16     secondary mass graves.  You can see a line that crosses from the top left

17     to the middle right.  Next to that is where the mass graves will be

18     created.  But you can see on the 7th of September, 1995, that that grave

19     has not yet been created.

20        Q.   Can we go to the next page.  And this is an image dated

21     27 September 1995, the same date as the image of Branjevo military farm.

22     And if you can describe what we're looking at here, and perhaps the usher

23     can assist you and you can mark on this image the significant features.

24        A.   One significant point is that in these images you would

25     invariably see the tracks of vehicles, and if you follow that line and

Page 25840

 1     that line, you can see what are the tracks of vehicles.  And when we

 2     examined the mass graves, we would find those tracks embedded in the

 3     soil.  I'm not saying those specific tracks, but we would find tracks

 4     which matched imagery.

 5             And if you look at this area, you see what looks to be an open

 6     pit, which is exactly where Cancari Road 12 secondary grave is located,

 7     and it looks to be open and not yet covered up or not yet filled with

 8     bodies.

 9        Q.   If you can put a CR12 within that rectangle.  There's fine.

10        A.   Sorry.

11        Q.   And then initial and date it.

12        A.   [Marks]

13             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can tender that, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be separately admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4511, Your Honours.

16             MR. MITCHELL:

17        Q.   And if we can go to the next page, 73 in the hard copy and 88 in

18     e-court.  We're now looking at an image dated the 2nd of October, 1995.

19     If you can describe what we're looking at.

20        A.   Your Honours, I think that you can clearly see that the mass

21     grave has now been filled in, and you can see the vehicle tracks.  You

22     can recognise the vehicle tracks from the previous image around the mass

23     graves, and it shows vehicle tracks from a heavy machine which has

24     levelled the mass graves, and you can see those tracks radiating out from

25     the mass graves area.  So this is effectively an image after the grave

Page 25841

 1     has been filled with bodies and covered up, and then we would use this

 2     image to identify that site and then we would uncover that mass graves

 3     and exhume the bodies.

 4        Q.   And this particular grave, Cancari Road 12, was exhumed by

 5     Professor Richard Wright in 1998; is that right?

 6        A.   In 1998, yes.

 7        Q.   And can you just remind us what was found in Cancari Road 12?

 8     Like, were there human remains located there?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes, there were.  I was present at the mortuary when those

10     bodies were examined, and I examined artefacts from those bodies.  There

11     were a number of complete and partial human remains located within that

12     secondary mass graves.  There were items of identification and items

13     which provided a strong link to Srebrenica and July of 1995, and

14     documents which identified persons missing from Srebrenica.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender that book in its

16     entirety.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4512, Your Honours.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. Manning.  I don't have any further

20     questions.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Given that we took the first break earlier, the Chamber is minded

23     to take the second break at 10 past 5.00 for 25 minutes.  So could you

24     start, Mr. Karadzic, now.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good afternoon,

Page 25842

 1     Your Excellencies.  Good afternoon to everyone.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, too, Mr. Manning.

 4        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

 5        Q.   Since there is page 19 that's still fresh in our minds, I'd like

 6     us to go back to it so you can mark something on it.  I believe it's

 7     23633, although I don't know the page number in e-court.  We saw it a

 8     moment ago.  It has just been admitted.  It received a new P number,

 9     whereas the old 65 ter number is 23633, page 19 in the photo album.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  I think it's page 30 in e-court.

11             JUDGE KWON:  What was the number of that marked version?  It's

12     probably P4510.  This one.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have it enlarged, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Manning, you say that you know where the people were buried

16     and where the execution took place.  Can you mark the spot of execution.

17        A.   I've marked the area in red.

18        Q.   And the burial?

19        A.   That's the square at the left.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned and are familiar with the testimony of

21     Drazen Erdemovic.  Do you know that he corrected his testimony recently

22     in this courtroom and he said that he arrived at Branjevo at 11.00 and

23     that at that point in time there were neither prisoners more graves

24     there?  Were you shown his testimony by the Prosecution?

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure he corrected the evidence as to be

Page 25843

 1     specific as the time when he arrived.  But what is your question?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, he and another

 3     witness marked another spot at place of execution.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I was referring to the time you referred to, but

 5     please be specific in putting questions.

 6             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, at page 25374 of the transcript, he

 8     did say that he arrived at approximately 11.00, although he was not

 9     certain of the time.

10             JUDGE KWON:  It's a bit different connotation.  He said -- what

11     Mr. Karadzic said, he corrected his testimony recently and he arrived at

12     Branjevo at 11.00.  But -- but I'm not sure if you need to put in all

13     those things.  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?  Would you like to

14     keep this image for now?  Shall we ask the witness to initial and date

15     this document?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not just yet, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You were, however, informed, and you mentioned that in the

19     forensic summary of 2000, on page 9, that Erdemovic had said that the

20     executions took place approximately between 10.00 and 3.00 and that some

21     1.200 people were killed.  Now we see that he arrived at 11.00.

22             How many sets of mortal remains were found in this location?

23        A.   Your Honours, I would have to check the reports specifically,

24     because (a) I can't remember and I want it to be correct, but also the

25     number of victims is much more accurately described by DNA results

Page 25844

 1     because there were body parts in that grave and I would be able to check

 2     my report from 2000, 2001, but that figure has since changed because of

 3     the DNA analysis.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree or did you learn that before the alleged

 5     executions no grave was dug out?

 6        A.   I -- I think I understand the question.  Prior to July of 1995,

 7     the aerial imagery shows that there was no grave in that area, and

 8     following the exhumation of that grave, we located -- or, the ICTY

 9     located a mass grave in that area.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Manning, do you have any experience from some

11     other civil wars, and, if so, which ones?

12        A.   No.  I was not involved in investigations of war crimes until I

13     came to the Tribunal and began working on the Srebrenica case.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I will put to you what Erdemovic testified to as one

15     of the alleged perpetrators.  He said that between 11.00 and 2.00 or

16     3.00, taking out ten people from the buses at a time and taking them some

17     200 metres away, executing them and returning for the next group of ten,

18     they killed 1.200 people within that limited period.  Can you imagine

19     that scene, and can you imagine that heap of victims?

20             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure you have a -- yes, Mr. Mitchell.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I agree that Mr. Erdemovic said

22     11.00, but I'd like a citation for the 2.00 or 3.00, because my

23     recollection was he said 3.00 or 4.00.  So if Mr. Karadzic is going to

24     put this scenario, then it needs to be factually accurate.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, absolutely, yes.  Mr. Karadzic.

Page 25845

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In certain statements he mentioned

 2     between 2.00 and 3.00, whereas in others between 3.00 and 4.00, but it

 3     may be as Mr. Mitchell wants it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You need to be precise, but I don't see the point of

 5     putting all those things, but please proceed.  Be precise if you'd like

 6     to put -- give reference to Mr. Erdemovic's or others' evidence to the

 7     witness.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is my wish for the witness to

 9     say whether he took Mr. Erdemovic's words for granted and whether he can

10     accept that during that period 1.200 people were killed, ten at a time,

11     and whether there were 1.200 people who were found in this particular

12     mass grave or related to that mass grave.

13             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, whilst I've heard Mr. Erdemovic's

14     testimony and read it on a number of occasions, my job as an investigator

15     is to corroborate or disprove such statements.  That was the process that

16     we undertook for the exhumation/autopsy process.

17             The mass grave at Branjevo military farm had been robbed of a

18     significant number of bodies, yet there was still a significant number of

19     bodies located there.  Again, I don't want to give the figure because I

20     don't want to get it wrong, but it was in excess of a hundred bodies, and

21     I can well imagine 1.200 men and boys executed at Branjevo military farm

22     and I can base that on the examination of the grave site and the

23     examination of the numbers of bodies and body parts in the secondary mass

24     graves.  Whether it was 1.000 or 1.200, I can accept easily that it was a

25     significant execution point, that the mass grave was full of bodies and

Page 25846

 1     that those bodies were then robbed and taken to a significant number of

 2     primary -- of secondary mass graves along Cancari Road 12, 11, 10,

 3     et cetera.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Thank you, Mr. Manning.  However, in the Krstic

 6     case, on page 3618 of the 26th of May, 2000, you said that the OTP

 7     dispatched investigators to the location pointed out by Erdemovic and

 8     that:

 9             [In English] "... approximately 500 hundred Muslims had been

10     executed at that location on 16th of July, 1995."

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the English part.  It was -- when

12     you change into English, please put a pause, significant pause, so that

13     we wouldn't miss any part.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So I'll read out quoting directly from the English version.  Page

16     3618, the 26th of May, 2000, the Krstic case:

17             [In English] "The Office of the Prosecutor sent the investigators

18     to that location after Drazen Erdemovic informed Prosecution that

19     approximately 500 Muslims had been executed at that location on the

20     16th of July, 1995."

21             JUDGE KWON:  Again, I think I missed some early part of your

22     English.  "Office of the Prosecutor sent ..."

23             THE ACCUSED:  "... investigators to that location after

24     Drazen Erdemovic informed the Prosecutor that approximately 500 Muslims

25     had been executed at that location on the 16th of July 1995."

Page 25847

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I can apologise for

 3     interrupting.  The way that question is phrased is extremely misleading.

 4     The previous -- the question that Mr. Manning was asked said:  This is a

 5     photograph of the Pilica Dom.  At the rear of this building was the

 6     execution point examined?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  We're talking about a completely different site.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Then let us upload that page if you'd like to pose

10     that question.

11             Before we upload that question, I asked you, Mr. Karadzic,

12     whether you would like to keep this image.  Would you like to keep this

13     image for now?

14             Yes.  Why don't you initial and date this document.  We can

15     re-upload it, if necessary.

16             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17             JUDGE KWON:  So we admit it as a separate Defence exhibit.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2188, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What is your -- what is the 65 ter number for

20     Krstic transcript?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D5177.  Page 77.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   However, Mr. Manning, in the forensic summary of 2007, you state

24     that the ICMP identified 104 Srebrenica victims in this grave; correct?

25     Page 5 of the forensic summary.

Page 25848

 1        A.   Your Honours, without checking that report, I can only say I can

 2     accept that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  You said excess of hundred bodies.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And, Your Honours, I make the point that that

 5     is the number of bodies identified from the mass grave, not the numbers

 6     of bodies within the mass grave.  That would be the end result of their

 7     examinations.  Remembering that in that mass grave there were bodies

 8     parts which were very broken up and that might indicate a body part of

 9     only a foot or a leg or a hand in that grave, but that would still

10     represent an individual in that grave.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We have the page in front of us, Mr. Karadzic.

12     Is this the page you referred to?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was the testimony, and I

14     believe I've already moved on to the forensic summary of 2007, where it

15     is stated that the ICMP identified 104 people.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Why, Mr. Manning, in your view, out of the alleged 1.200 they

18     were unable to identify more than 104?

19        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Karadzic asked if I could well imagine that

20     many number.  I can, but the primary mass grave at Branjevo military farm

21     was robbed.  The bodies were removed, and the process of identifying the

22     human remains is, I assume, still continuing.  Therefore, that there were

23     at least 100 victims identified from that primary mass grave indicates to

24     me that the significant number of bodies removed from that mass grave

25     have either been identified in Cancari Road or some other mass graves.

Page 25849

 1        Q.   And did you establish the number involved?  Did anyone establish

 2     the number of victims at the Branjevo Farm, and did you accept that?

 3        A.   That figure would be most accurate from Mr. Janc's report in that

 4     the definitive number of victims from that grave and that execution would

 5     be the number identified from the Branjevo military farm primary mass

 6     grave and the number of victims identified in the related secondary mass

 7     graves along Cancari Road.  So if you took their most recent figures,

 8     added up four or five or however many secondary graves with the primary

 9     grave, you would have an accurate count of the number of identified

10     bodies so far from that execution.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, do you know that in that area the

12     war went on for some 45 months?  Did you know that a differentiation

13     should be made between those who lost their lives during those 45 months

14     from those who were killed in the fighting in July, and finally, those

15     who were unlawfully killed had to be identified, those who were not

16     killed in combat?  Did anyone draw your attention to that, that there

17     were different times involved as far as deaths were concerned and burials

18     as well?

19        A.   I'm aware that the conflict extended for some particular time.  I

20     don't believe there was conflict in the area of Branjevo military farm,

21     but I have absolutely no evidence to indicate that bodies other than

22     those killed following the fall of Srebrenica executed at the

23     Branjevo military farm were placed in the Branjevo military farm mass

24     grave and then removed to secondary graves.  Part of the work that we

25     undertook, that the experts undertook, was to identify that the grave we

Page 25850

 1     were examining was (a) connected to Srebrenica, and (b) showed no

 2     evidence of being an amalgam of other graves or a grave that was used

 3     over years.  There was no evidence of that in the graves that we

 4     examined.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In the statements of Drazen Erdemovic, did you find

 6     the following information:  that on that day the guards had informed him

 7     that there had been burials there beforehand as well?  So it's the

 8     plural, "burials."

 9        A.   I have no recollection of that evidence from Mr. Erdemovic or any

10     other person.

11        Q.   Well, Mr. Erdemovic confirmed that here as well in this

12     courtroom, that he had been informed about that, that the guard had told

13     him that there had been burials there earlier on as well.

14             All right.  Now I'm going to ask you something else, Mr. Manning.

15     Do you know what the situation was like in Srebrenica during those three

16     and a half years?  Do we agree that there was no public transportation

17     there?  Do we agree that banks were not operating there?

18        A.   Your Honours, I only know of the circumstances in Srebrenica from

19     speaking to witnesses and examining video and photographic records.  I

20     know that it was particularly difficult, that there were some records of

21     near starvation, and I completely accept that the normal functions of

22     government would have been either non-existent or barely operating and

23     delivered by the UN in -- in some measure.

24        Q.   Thank you.  At one point you said, and I can find that if you

25     don't confirm it for me now, that many things complicated the

Page 25851

 1     investigation there.  Can you enumerate that for us?  What were the

 2     things that made your work more complicated -- or, rather, establishing

 3     the truth in the Srebrenica case?

 4        A.   The sheer volume of the executions made it a long-term

 5     investigation.  Perhaps you're referring to the fact that the primary

 6     graves were disturbed.  Had we simply examined non-robbed, non-disturbed

 7     primary graves, we would have had intact bodies, and we would have been

 8     able to (a) count them, and (b) probably identify them much more quickly.

 9             In trying to hide the graves, the robbing of the graves broke up

10     the bodies, tore the bodies apart and made not only the identification of

11     those people very difficult but significantly increased the number of

12     crime scenes that we had to examine.  Had the primary mass graves not

13     been touched, we probably could have exhumed them in a short time of a

14     year or two and worked on the findings from those exhumations and

15     autopsies.

16        Q.   Apart from that, was everything in order?  Did you know that

17     experts had serious objections to the correctness and regularity of the

18     investigations there, and even Haglund himself called the 1996

19     investigations a three-ring circus?  Also, there were serious objections

20     with respect to Haglund's work, too.

21        A.   Your Honours, I'm aware of the allegations against Dr. Haglund.

22     They were dealt with prior to my arrival at the ICTY, and I wasn't part

23     of those issues, but in no way did I see any significant irregularities,

24     any significant criticism of the work that flowed from Dr. Haglund's

25     reports to the Chambers and from the other experts, Professor Wright,

Page 25852

 1     Mr. Baraybar, Dr. Clark, et cetera.  I don't have first-hand knowledge of

 2     the issues that Dr. Haglund faced, but I don't believe that there was

 3     dissent thereafter in relation to the exhumation/autopsy process and how

 4     it was conducted.

 5        Q.   For the participants, Mr. Haglund, in the Popovic case, on

 6     pages 19065 through -068, said that these investigations from 1996 were a

 7     three-ring circus.  Do you know, Mr. Manning, that Dr. Snow, who is a

 8     highly prominent forensic anthropologist of world renown, said that these

 9     things done in 1996 were "sloppy science"?

10        A.   I don't recall that specific quote.  I was aware of, broadly, the

11     allegations concerning Dr. Haglund.  They'd been dealt with before I

12     attended the Tribunal, and I didn't examine them thereafter, so I can't

13     comment on that particular comment except to say that I didn't see

14     evidence of that in my examination of the documents produced by

15     Dr. Haglund and his team, acknowledging that I'm not a forensic expert or

16     an anthropologist.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I see the time

18     Excellency.  Should I go on or --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll take a break for --

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can I just raise two small points in less

23     than a minute.  The first point is the Prosecution does not oppose the

24     Defence request to have assistance of defence expert in courtroom for

25     Butler testimony, and the second point is I just want to remind everyone

Page 25853

 1     that Mr. Djurdjevic also has to finish tomorrow, the next witness.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  My information -- that he could remain with us a bit

 3     in the morning -- on the morning of Wednesday.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  But that's changed.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No.  Tomorrow is Wednesday.  I just wanted

 7     to mention, because we only spoke today about Mr. Manning to have to

 8     conclude tomorrow, but Mr. Djurdjevic as well.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But he has to return then, if we cannot finish him

10     tomorrow.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.

13             We'll take a break for 25 minutes and resume at 20 to 6.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, while the logistical

17     concerns should not affect the proper time for cross-examination, we will

18     do our utmost to accommodate the situations of the witnesses.  For today,

19     if necessary, we'll extend our sitting until up to 7.20 or 7.30,

20     depending on the situation, and tomorrow we decided to sit in an extended

21     format, i.e., 9.00 to 3.00.  Then I will hope that that could solve the

22     situations.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The Defence will

Page 25854

 1     respond to all of this.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Manning, please do not feel attacked at any point in time.

 4     I'm not attacking you or anyone else.  I would just like us to do away

 5     with all this confusion.  And now I'm going to put to you what my thesis

 6     is.  My thesis is that this was a theatre of war for almost 45 months.

 7     People lost their lives there, and these people were buried -- I mean,

 8     you would bury those who belonged to the other side in mass graves,

 9     whereas you'd bury your own in family graves.

10             Were you informed about these deaths there and that people who

11     lost their lives in combat were buried in mass graves?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I'm sorry for interrupting

14     immediately, but first I'd like to clarify "the people lost their lives

15     there," and secondly, Mr. Karadzic was given a chance to cross-examine

16     Erdemovic last week and this was never the case that was put to him, and

17     I think it's inappropriate for now.  We tried to push Mr. Karadzic on

18     what his specific case was last week and he wouldn't put a case to

19     Mr. Erdemovic, and to now suggest that the bodies in any of these graves

20     or particularly at Branjevo Farm are combat I think is inappropriate when

21     he didn't put it to that particular witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Karadzic, you heard Mr. Mitchell's

23     intervention.  Yes.  Please reformulate in a more precise manner or put

24     one question at a time.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Excellency, may I just

Page 25855

 1     respond?

 2             Last time I did not want to admit something that Mr. Mitchell

 3     wanted to get from me.  What he has to --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.  Put one question at a time to the

 5     witness.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Mitchell, did you know that people lost their

 9     lives during those 45 months and that the victims of the other side were

10     buried by their adversaries in mass graves through so-called sanitisation

11     procedures?

12             JUDGE KWON:  You're now referring to the specific Branjevo Farm,

13     do you -- are you?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  This entire area that

15     Mr. Manning dealt with, this entire war zone.

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I accept that many people were killed

17     and burials took place, no doubt some mass burials.  We saw no evidence

18     that the Srebrenica graves contained bodies from a previous era.  We saw

19     no specific evidence that the bodies in the mass graves were not executed

20     and buried within those mass graves which were hidden.  They were not, in

21     my view, "asanacija" or a cleansing of the -- of the battleground.  They

22     were clandestinely dug primary mass graves which held the bodies of, in

23     many cases, victims who were bound or blindfolded or both and shot.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We will get to that, Mr. Manning.  Tell us now, please, did you

Page 25856

 1     ever see executions carried out by shrapnel and were there any victims

 2     here that had been killed by shrapnel?

 3        A.   There was evidence from the chief archaeologist Dr. Wright and

 4     from the anthropologist Chris Lawrence and also Dr. Clark at that some

 5     bodies, particularly from Glogova 1 and 2, Ravnice, and Zeleni Jadar

 6     graves bore shrapnel injury, that they had charring and they were burnt

 7     and that the bodies had been disfigured by explosion, and there was some

 8     evidence clearly of explosions at Pilica Dom and Kravica warehouse.

 9        Q.   Let us look at this, Mr. Manning.  You said that in addition to

10     Muslim ritual objects, you did not find any of another provenance.  For

11     example, you didn't find any Christian objects.  Were there any

12     Christians in these graves?

13        A.   I didn't -- sorry, the whole team did not find specific evidence

14     of any other religion except Islam within the artefacts located on the

15     bodies and within the graves.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to show you one of these -- that is

17     2478, 65 ter.  So I'd like to show you an example of a Serb buried there.

18     Can you explain that?  How else would a Serb be in a mass graves except

19     by way of "asanacija," sanitisation of the terrain?

20             Do you have any explanation?  How would a Serb get there?  How

21     would a Serb get into a mass grave unless it was a question of

22     sanitisation, not being recognised by Serbs?

23        A.   I'm sorry, I believed you were going to show me something, but I

24     don't know of any Serb victim who was confirmed to be in a Srebrenica

25     mass grave.

Page 25857

 1        Q.   Can we take a look at Lazete 1, page 17.  523.  Please take a

 2     look at that.  523, Nusret Zimic with a traffic licence for a particular

 3     vehicle, and then there's another one, 523, Gojko Polic.  That's what it

 4     says.  Obviously they did not recognise him and they buried him during

 5     the sanitisation of the terrain.

 6             Do you have any information about that?  Do you know how come a

 7     Serb was part of this execution, if there was one, and how come there was

 8     a Serb in a Srebrenica unit?

 9        A.   Your Honours, the document Mr. Karadzic is --

10             THE PRESIDING JUDGE:  Just a second.  We can collapse B/C/S.

11     That's the second item in the number Lazete 1, 523, ID document,

12     something, yes.

13             THE WITNESS:  The document is one that I produced, and what it

14     shows is that on the body, Lazete 1, 523, there was found an

15     identification document titled "Registration number," and the name on

16     that document was Polic, Gojko.  That doesn't indicate that that

17     individual was in the grave.  It indicates that document was in the grave

18     in the possession of a victim.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   And how would the victim have that if it were a Tuzla licence or

21     registration?

22        A.   Well, firstly, I don't know why that person would have that

23     identification document, but I need to correct myself.  Without checking

24     the complete number, in those -- in that time, the numbering system was

25     somewhat different so that item 523 might have been a document loose in

Page 25858

 1     the grave rather than on a body.  In later instances, I would know from

 2     the number.  We would need to check that, but this indicates to me that

 3     that document was found in the Lazete 2 mass grave.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  What does that the highlight or emboldened

 5     characters mean?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Why are some of the entries emboldened?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I don't actually know, and I'm not

 9     quite sure if that's an artefact of the --

10             JUDGE KWON:  If you show the upper part of it.  Is that, "The

11     highlighted entries indicate names located in part or whole in the ICRC

12     list of missing from Srebrenica."

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I do recall now.  So the

14     emboldened is entries that are located in the ICRC missing list; that is,

15     an individual listed as missing from Srebrenica or the closest match to

16     that name that we could find.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Manning, could you please take a look at this, line 3,

21     Lenjinac Husein.  He has a cheque-book and a personal ID.  Over those

22     three years, had a bank been working in Srebrenica and could people pay

23     by using cheques?

24        A.   I don't know, but I suspect not.

25        Q.   You thank you.  Please take a look at 514.  Again this is a bank

Page 25859

 1     receipt.

 2        A.   Yes, I accept that.

 3        Q.   Please look at 567.  It is a health insurance card, and health

 4     insurance did not function.  Everything had to be paid for.  In

 5     Srebrenica there was no health insurance.

 6        A.   Your Honours, I -- I think Mr. Karadzic is referring to 582, and

 7     I accept that.  If I may, I've examined these documents and seen that

 8     some of the documents relate to periods well preceding the fall of

 9     Srebrenica.  Some documents went back clearly to the individual's

10     grandfather or family, and I assume that this individual who was born

11     in -- I'm sorry, I notice that there are very old individuals within the

12     grave, and I recall some of the documentation was 10 and 20, and 30 and

13     40 years old.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Item 567 also has health insurance card,

15     Mr. Manning.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  Have a look at 634, please, identification card from

19     Rogatica.  A man from Rogatica participated in the fighting.  He was

20     killed and buried when the terrain was being cleared.  Do you have any

21     proof that things were different, because people from Rogatica didn't

22     flee to Srebrenica.  The fate of Rogatica was different.

23        A.   Your Honours, I can't comment on -- I can't comment on -- on that

24     only to say that that individual was located within a mass grave which we

25     clearly identified to be connected to the fall of Srebrenica and which

Page 25860

 1     contained the bodies of victims who were bound and, in some cases,

 2     blindfolded and executed.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Manning, do you know that POWs couldn't hold on

 4     to their passports?  Have a look at the last entry on this page.  It

 5     refers to passport 641.  I think the layout I have is somewhat different.

 6     Have a look at 641, passport number 2511 -- it's the eighth entry from

 7     the bottom.

 8        A.   Yes, I see that entry and I've examined those items.  The

 9     majority of the bodies we found in the graves had some form of

10     identification, normally wallets.  That was a very common instance.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Above that entry there is someone with an ID card and

12     a military ID.  The number is 637; isn't that right?

13        A.   That's correct, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  We don't have to have a look at the next page.  I'm

15     already looking at the following page.  Just a moment, please.

16             648, for example, a medical report.  Let's see the date.  Who is

17     the doctor who drafted this?  Have these documents been kept?

18        A.   I can't answer that.  That's something that the ICTY could

19     answer.

20             In -- in the Lazete grave, many of those documents were handed

21     over to PHR, Physicians for Human Rights, and they worked very heavily on

22     trying to identify the victims, but you would have to ask the ICTY if

23     they still hold that item.  There is a photograph.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You confirmed that you found Dutch newspapers dated

25     April 1995 on one of the victims; isn't that correct?

Page 25861

 1        A.   That's correct.  We found a number of items connected to the

 2     Dutch Battalion.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us why would someone have a Dutch

 4     newspaper on him or herself for three and a half months and take this

 5     newspaper with him or her if that person was captured into captivity?

 6     What sort of an explanation could you provide for this?  What is the

 7     logic?

 8        A.   Your Honours, to my knowledge some of those newspapers were cut

 9     into small squares.  We assumed that they were used as cigarette paper,

10     and the photographs of those items would show you that they were small

11     pieces of newsprint.  As to why they kept them, I can't answer.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But you did not say that these were cut-outs.  You

13     said that there was a Dutch newspaper that was found.  The date on the

14     newspaper was April.  You saw the date.  You saw the month.  So it was a

15     whole newspaper; isn't that correct?

16        A.   No, I'm sorry, that's not correct, although that's not to say

17     that there was not a complete page among the tens of thousands of

18     artefacts.  But I specifically recall a Dutch newspaper cut in, what I

19     assumed, to be cigarette-paper size.

20        Q.   Could we please see page 19.  Just a minute.  The matter is a

21     religious one.  No.  It's lower down.  471.  Silver engraved -- a silver

22     cigarette box.  You also came across silver pocket watches, and so on and

23     so forth; isn't that correct?

24        A.   That's correct, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's have a look at what you put under the

Page 25862

 1     column "Religious Artefacts."  You have prayer beads and then there is a

 2     triangular cotton bag.  Do you know what the purpose of that bag is?  Did

 3     your hosts in Bosnia inform you of the customs of war in our country?

 4        A.   I'm not sure I understand the question.

 5        Q.   For example, did they tell you what a Muslim fighter, what a

 6     Serbian fighter, would have on themselves, what they would do, what sort

 7     of customs they had, amulets, religious inscriptions, other sort of

 8     ribbons?  Did anybody tell you about such things?  Takbirs?

 9        A.   I'm not sure I discussed it at length, but I did some research as

10     to what the items we located within the grave were.  I found out what a

11     muska was and that these items of small copies of the Koran or small

12     paragraphs from the Koran were routinely carried by people of the Muslim

13     faith, and I saw those sort of documents and pieces of material within

14     the mass graves.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And now on the next page we have prayer beads.

16     That's clear, although you find prayer beads in almost all religions;

17     isn't that correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I would accept that, to my knowledge, Christian and Muslim

19     religious people have prayer beads.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now let us have a look at the following:  There are

21     these pouches or -- do you know that these things are used to keep ritual

22     objects, religious inscriptions, religious artefacts, and so on and so

23     forth?

24        A.   Yes.  And where we could identify what the text was or the

25     artefact was, we would indicate it.  And as I said, the only religion

Page 25863

 1     that we could confirm was Islam.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have a look at the following page.  I'm not

 3     sure it's the same one.  Is that page 12?  We saw the reference to the

 4     Koran.  You confirmed that.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What page is this.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The previous page, if you are referring to

 7     "Miniature Koran in red plastic box."  Previous page.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and we went back to the

 9     previous page.  Could we see page 20 now.  Could we see the following

10     page.  Could we see the following page, please.

11             Could I see the number, please, the ERN number.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have B/C/S version, Mr. Karadzic, in front of

13     you?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have the B/C/S version.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you upload both then.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 20 in the Serbian

17     version now.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Lazete 2C.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Please have a look at it.  471, a pocket watch, was found, a

21     silver pocket watch on a chain; isn't that correct?

22        A.   Your Honours, I can see the B/C/S version, but I remember from

23     the English version, yes, and it was engraved "Tunnel Krizevci 5/3/1991."

24        Q.   Krizevci, yes.  It's page 19 in the English version.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The page we were looking at just before, yes.

Page 25864

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please see the

 2     following page.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Have a look at this.  The following page in the Serbian, please.

 5     That's it in the Serbian version.

 6             Have a look at how many passports there were with these people.

 7     There were driving licenses, a number of letters, and at least three

 8     passports, a bank receipt, a bank document from the Sarajevo

 9     agricultural -- the Sarajevo Economic Bank and so on and so forth.

10             Mr. Manning, did you know that a POW couldn't have a passport on

11     himself and that the detainees in the detention unit here similarly don't

12     have their passports on them?

13        A.   I would accept that.  However, our investigation, witness

14     statements, the exhumations work, indicated that these individuals had

15     been captured and executed in possession of those documents.  I don't

16     know why they were not removed.  There was a consistency in all the

17     graves that the majority of the victims had some identification material

18     with them or some personal, small personal effects.  I believe that

19     Nova Kasaba 99 was the only grave in which we found significant

20     belongings, some bags, but the majority of them had what they had on

21     them.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that accusations were levelled against

23     Serbian policemen or troops or individuals, according to which after

24     people were captured they would take the passports and other valuables

25     from these captives?  So how can we reconcile these two claims?  How can

Page 25865

 1     we reconcile this claim with the fact that people had, well, both

 2     passports and valuables on them?

 3        A.   Your Honours, if I give an example from Kravica warehouse.  The

 4     survivor who may have given evidence to the Chamber indicated he was

 5     captured or gave himself up.  He was held on Sandici meadow.  He was then

 6     taken the approximate kilometre to Kravica warehouse where the execution

 7     took place.  He didn't indicate, from my recollection, that he was

 8     thoroughly searched.

 9             Other accounts from survivors indicate the same thing.  And I do

10     accept that accounts during the war indicate that prisoners and others

11     would have material removed from them.  In this instance, the bodies were

12     found with their identification documents and minor artefacts in their

13     possession in the majority of cases.

14        Q.   Thank you.  First of all, Mr. Manning, let me ask you whether you

15     agree with the following:  Did you find out that up -- that the killing

16     in Kravica took place after an incident?  Goods or items weren't listed

17     or taken.  The detainees were kept, and after the incident these people

18     were killed.  Were you aware of this fact?

19        A.   I'm aware that the men were taken to the warehouse and detained

20     there and they were executed there en masse, and I'm aware, although I

21     wasn't part of that investigation, of an individual who had - and I'm

22     trying to remember - either tried to grab a weapon or taken a weapon or

23     attempted to take a weapon and that's when the executions commenced, but

24     I wasn't involved in that part of the investigation.  It was after I

25     left.

Page 25866

 1        Q.   Thank you.  For your information, he was killed although he went

 2     to light up a cigarette.  They weren't treated as POWs, Mr. Manning.

 3     They were being kept, and this is how had happened?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Manning, do you know that Islamic fighters, even our Serbian

 7     fighters, wear ribbons, ritual ribbons, around their heads, and the

 8     Muslims have ribbons on which you have the Tegbir inscription from the

 9     Koran or their mother's embroider their ribbons.  These ribbons are

10     called mother's halal, and they are used by these soldiers when they go

11     to war.  Were you aware of this fact?

12        A.   No, I wasn't.

13        Q.   That's why I'm asking you about this.  Did the hosts, the local

14     people provide you with information on everything over there?  Please

15     have a look at how these ribbons were used, these ribbons that were

16     sometimes used as blindfolds.  Sometimes you refer to them as ribbons

17     that might be used as blindfolds.  Have a look at what they look like.

18     The fourth and the fifth from the bottom with the serrated edge, and then

19     it says another one with a serrated edge.  394, pink cotton ribbon, and a

20     blue ribbon for hats.

21             Can you imagine anyone who wants to shoot people and then

22     prepares all these ribbons that he could blindfold the person without

23     tying up that person's hands?

24        A.   Your Honours, the items that Mr. Karadzic is referring to, I

25     examined each and every one of them.  I believe that the items

Page 25867

 1     represented here are blindfolds.  In no way was there evidence that any

 2     of those items were (a) marked with any Islamic text, or (b) produced as

 3     a scarf or a ribbon.  The majority of the items were scrap cloth,

 4     particularly looking as if they had been used in a process, an industrial

 5     process, perhaps covering furniture, perhaps items of clothing.  They

 6     were scraps of cloth, and they were tied in many, many instances around

 7     the head of the individuals.

 8             I did not see anything that would indicate to me or to the

 9     experts who examined the blindfolds that they were in any way (a) a

10     religious item, and (b) used as a headscarf or covering.  They were

11     scraps of cloth which were not, what I would consider, being produced by

12     mothers for their sons.  They were also tied, in the instances that I

13     saw, very strongly around the head of the individuals, and in a

14     significant number of the items I found what I believed to be human hair,

15     clumps of hair, caught in the knot.  And I also would refer to testimony

16     of survivors, for instance, from Orahovac, who indicated that they were

17     blindfolded, and also I believe from memory at the dam at Petkovci.  But

18     certainly in Orahovac, and I'm not sure if the Chamber has heard from

19     that witness.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Whose hair would be tied up with a ribbon used by a

21     combatant?

22        A.   In the instances that I saw, I saw bodies in some of the graves

23     which still had some of their hair on their skulls, and you could see

24     that that hair was caught up in the knot of the blindfold.  And I'm not

25     an expert on human hair, but when I examined the blindfolds, I saw what I

Page 25868

 1     believe to be human hair within the knots and I'm assuming that that's

 2     the human hair from the head which that blindfold was on.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that there were satin and velvet ribbons, these

 4     ribbons of very expensive material?  Dr. Christopher Lawrence confirmed

 5     here before this Court that the material used was fairly expensive.  Did

 6     you have any such information?

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if I could just get a cite for

 8     that.  I don't recall Mr. Lawrence giving that evidence.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you don't remember, we'll find

10     it, but I'm familiar with this case, and I'm sure you're familiar with it

11     better than I am.  He said that.  He confirmed that it was rather

12     expensive.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Is it true that there was shiny material that was used, satin and

15     velvet?

16        A.   Your Honours, I don't remember velvet, and I wouldn't say the

17     material was satin.  One of the experts described the material as having

18     a sheen, that being somewhat shiny, and I accept that, but as I said

19     before, that material that could be referred to as shiny was in -- in

20     such a distinct pattern that you could see it had been cut from a -- from

21     a square of cloth, and the inside of that cloth had been used for

22     something else, and the scalloping around the edge of the cloth indicated

23     that the middle of the square of cloth had been cut out.  So this

24     material, whether it be shiny or expensive was an off-cut from another

25     process.  It was scrap material in many cases.

Page 25869

 1        Q.   Please have a look at the entry 470, which is entry number 8 from

 2     the bottom.  It says, "Pink satin-like material - patterned."  And in

 3     many cases the edges were scalloped or serrated.  Do you know what this

 4     means when you say it was scalloped or serrated?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer.  Mr. Mitchell.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Your Honour, just to be fair.  Dr. Lawrence did

 7     say -- he was asked about a particular piece of fabric [overlapping

 8     speakers] expensive.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  He answered yes somewhat.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Correct.  At transcript 22474.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I located it.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The scalloped edges was the pattern and how

13     it was described.  It was roughly cut.  It wasn't sewn.  And I liken it,

14     if you take a handkerchief and place it over a glass tightly held, if you

15     cut a line around the glass, the remaining material that you have would

16     have an irregular scalloped pattern where the material was bunched up,

17     and that's what we saw in those scalloped-edge pieces of material, and

18     they were not embroidered finished, they were off -cuts.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Well, let's go through these things here and see what it says.

21     Have a look at 470.  Does it say pink satin-like material with a pattern?

22        A.   Yes, it does.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Was there embroidered material?  I don't know how

24     this is going to be interpreted.

25        A.   Some of the blindfolds had an embroidered flour pattern in them.

Page 25870

 1     It was a small three- or four-lobed flower which had been sewn by machine

 2     into the material, and I think it had holes in the flower.  And that was

 3     repeated across the material.  And again, those -- the majority of those

 4     strips of cloth appeared to be the off-cut of a process, that they were

 5     the bits left behind when something else was produced, the scrap

 6     material.

 7        Q.   How did you establish that?  After that much time being in the

 8     country itself, how were you able to establish that?

 9        A.   If you examine the blindfolds, and there are photographs within

10     my report and in other reports, when the blindfolds were examined at the

11     mortuary, they would be cleaned, photographed, and in some instances the

12     blindfolds would be pulled out in the shape of a square and you could see

13     that they were clearly the leftover from some process.

14             We examined the blindfolds, the cloth, and Dr. Maljaars examined

15     them, and there are photographs that show the blindfold in that state, in

16     that frame with the inside missing, in many instances.

17        Q.   Mr. Manning, did you know that a warrior carries the presence of

18     a female, be it a mother or sister?  Let's look at 23632, 65 ter,

19     photograph number 4.

20             Did you know that people carried something with them like a

21     mother's halal?  If your mother presented you with one, if you were

22     killed in combat, you go straight to heaven.  Were you aware of that?

23        A.   No, not specifically.

24        Q.   Let's look at photograph number 4 from 65 ter 23632.  Volume 2.

25     Volume number 2.  The ERN number is 0705-2817.  Page 9 in e-court.

Page 25871

 1             Have a look at this.  Are you trying to say that a Serb soldier

 2     would have a scarf like this in his equipment and used it when necessary?

 3        A.   No.  I'm saying that that was a blindfold, and it was put on the

 4     victim's head prior to execution.  This was one of the pieces of cloth

 5     that we found and identified as a blindfold, or it could be a ligature,

 6     if I look at the number, but I believe it's a blindfold.

 7        Q.   Are you familiar with the culture of Serbs and Muslims and the

 8     way they live?  If so, would you ascribe this particular colour and

 9     design to Serbs or Muslims?

10        A.   I don't see anything that would indicate a religious affinity in

11     that piece of cloth.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what colours are sported by Serb women as

13     opposed to Muslim women, and how would you explain a Serb soldier having

14     something like this at hand?

15        A.   I'm not aware of the colours sported by Serb women as opposed to

16     Muslim women, and I'm not aware that this blindfold was carried by a Serb

17     soldier.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have a look at photograph 61, which is at

19     page 64 in e-court in hard copy.  Page 64, photograph 61.  The ERN number

20     is 2874.

21             Did you see some fighters, including Serb fighters, wearing

22     scarves or bands around their heads on any photographs or footage?

23        A.   If we're talking about the conflict if Bosnia, yes, and I believe

24     some of the members of the Serb forces who entered Srebrenica had

25     headscarves.  I think black.  This individual in the image is from the

Page 25872

 1     Lazete -- Lazete 2 mass grave and is a blindfold on his head.

 2        Q.   Is this a soldier, Mr. Manning, and what is on his chest and

 3     around his waist?

 4        A.   I don't know if he's a soldier.  I assume he's of military age.

 5     He may very well have been a soldier.  Without checking the autopsy

 6     reports, I can't say specifically.  It looks like clothing.  It looks

 7     like trousers.  If it was military clothing or equipment, it would be

 8     noted on the autopsy report.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at page 91?

11     Sorry, page 94, photograph 91.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   While we are waiting for it, could you explain how Serb soldiers

14     had these objects on them, the ones that you termed blindfolds?  Page 94,

15     yes.

16             If you were familiar with our customs, would you ascribe this

17     item to a Serb or a Muslim; in other words, if that person was given it

18     by a Serb woman or a Muslim woman?

19        A.   I can't answer that question other than to say that that item was

20     found in a mass grave.  I believe it to be a blindfold.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your question was whether witness

22     could explain how Serb soldiers had these objects on them, the ones you

23     term blindfolds like this.  Is it your case that Serb soldiers always

24     carried with them the object that can be used, properly used, as

25     blindfolds?  Not in this colour.

Page 25873

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assert, Your Excellency, that

 2     they never did.  It was not common to Serbs.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Manning, can you tell us how come one of these alleged

 5     blindfolds was found in the pocket of a victim?

 6        A.   I can't tell you that.  I can assume, and there is some evidence

 7     from the survivors that they took their blindfolds off, and I assume that

 8     that's what happened, but I can't -- and without a specific reference, I

 9     can't answer that.

10        Q.   Do you want me to find it?  Do you remember specifying that a

11     blindfold was found in a person's pocket?

12        A.   I can accept that -- I don't recall that, but I can accept that.

13     And as I say, I can only assume why.

14        Q.   If I told you that religious objects were not to be shown to

15     nonbelievers or stepped on, would you see it as something familiar?  Does

16     it ring a bell?

17        A.   Your Honours, I currently work within the Middle East.  I'm

18     familiar with the people of the region, particularly the Islamic people.

19     In some cases that religious imperative may be applied.  In my time in

20     Bosnia I did not find -- and I do not mean to be disrespectful, I did not

21     find the Bosnian Muslims to be particularly religious or to be

22     particularly ardent about such things, but I'm not an expert on

23     Bosnian Muslim religious practices.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, just for -- purely for planning

25     purpose, I'd like to inquire of you how much more time do you need to

Page 25874

 1     conclude your cross-examination.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd need another hour, I'm afraid.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  In that case, we will take a break for five minutes

 4     and resume 10 to 7.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 6.43 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 6.50 p.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  For the remainder of this session, we'll be sitting

 8     pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

 9             Yes.  Mr. Karadzic, we'll sit up to, if necessary, 7.20 or 7.30,

10     but I expect you to conclude before then.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Excellency.

12             Can we have page 103.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I'll show you just one more.  Page 103.  Photograph number 100.

15     Zoom in, please.

16             Can you see the jagged edge and the pattern?  Could you provide

17     any other explanation other than this being a religious item?  We can

18     zoom in.  You can see that it has a clear pattern.  How do you explain

19     that?

20        A.   Your Honour, this is what I've been discussing.  A great majority

21     of the blindfolds were exactly the same as this material in different

22     colours, and I've always assumed that they came from the same source,

23     that they're scrap material.

24             And, Mr. Karadzic, the scalloping on the edges of the blindfold

25     are quite clear.  You can see that they are cut edges.  They haven't been

Page 25875

 1     embroidered.  They haven't been end-stitched.  If you would have spread

 2     this blindfold out, you would see that it formed the outside of a square

 3     piece of cloth, and the material in the middle of that cloth has been cut

 4     away.  And if you found that material, you'd find that the scalloped

 5     edges matched and this is a piece of cloth that was repeated in this form

 6     across many of the graves in startling similarity.

 7        Q.   And how do you know that, Mr. Manning, and is what you are saying

 8     the only explanation?  Are other explanations possible?

 9        A.   I have physically examined each and every one of these items.

10     I've seen the shape that -- that if you were to spread that blindfold

11     out, you would see the same shape that you see in Dr. Maljaars' report

12     and the photographs that I produced.  It is clearly an off-cut of some

13     other process, but what's more striking is that many, many, many other

14     blindfolds were exactly the same construction, and they were tied around

15     the heads of individuals who had been executed.  In some instances the

16     same material was used as a ligature.

17        Q.   We'll get to that.  Are you trying to say, Mr. Manning, that

18     these extensions, these tassels of sorts, are not identical and at equal

19     distances and that they were created randomly?

20        A.   That's correct, yes.

21        Q.   That they are identical and equidistant or not?

22        A.   No.  As I said before, they are off-cuts, and those scalloped

23     edges are irregular, and it is my belief and I've produced exactly the

24     same pattern that the material was bunched together, it was cut off, and

25     that's the scrap that's left.  It is not embroidered.  It is not

Page 25876

 1     equidistant.  They are not tassels.  It is not in any way, in my view, a

 2     religious artefact.  And, in fact, this particular type of blindfold was

 3     in pink, blue, and I can't recall the third colour.  It certainly wasn't

 4     Islamic green, and none of the blindfolds or cloth ligatures that I saw

 5     had any Islamic writing references or material on them whatsoever.

 6        Q.   Mr. Manning, if you were in the Middle East, would you be able to

 7     notice that Christians and Jews there prefer darker colours and

 8     monochromatic clothing, whereas Muslims, and especially Muslim women,

 9     choose coloured patterns and lighter colours?

10        A.   Your Honours, I don't think I can speak particularly well on that

11     matter.  The Arab women that I know of in the region predominantly wear

12     black -- black abayas.  Some of the men wear white.  Some of the men

13     where colours.  Some of them have different headdresses.  They are like

14     all of us, different people and different clothing requirements.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can we agree that you found the so-called blindfolds

16     which did not have a knot; that is to say, that were in a single piece?

17        A.   Some of the blindfolds had been broken up, had been damaged.  If

18     I could not establish that there was a blindfold, i.e., it was the same

19     shape as the head, it was a round circle of cloth bound in a knot, I

20     would not accept it as a blindfold.  And the photos you see of -- of

21     blindfolds which have been spread out like this were in our examination

22     of them at the mortuary, that they were cleaned, photographed, and spread

23     out, the knot removed, to -- to show that, in this case, the similarity

24     with other cloths.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 25877

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have look at 65 ter 2478,

 2     although it does have a P number.  I won't dwell on this any longer.  I

 3     won't show any more photographs since I have no time.  Page 24 in hard

 4     copy.  In the English version it may be different, but -- well, 24 in the

 5     Serbian, and we'll manage with the other one.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The top of the page, 596.  A band, a cloth band, without a knot,

 8     pale in colour.  How come it was without a knot?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Two pages ahead.

10             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, accepting --

11             JUDGE KWON:  It says, "Discoloured strip of cloth - minus knot."

12     Bottom of the page probably.  That may be it.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 596, yes.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Is it sewn or is it this circle?  You said you used to find these

16     circles made of cloth.

17        A.   Your Honour, I would probably need to check the autopsy report

18     and the photograph, but I note that I've indicated that it is on the head

19     of the individual and it may be that the knot has fallen away and is in

20     the body bag.  It may be that the knot has simply rotted away, but I

21     indicated on these documents where the blindfold or ligature was found.

22     In this instance, I've said it was on the person's head.  Clearly there's

23     a photograph and a record of that appearing as a blindfold.  And if you

24     look further up that column, you see that I've indicated item 580 was

25     located within the grave.  So in this instance we have a blindfold which

Page 25878

 1     doesn't have a knot, one of the many hundreds, that is on someone's head.

 2     But, again, if I could see the photograph of the item or the autopsy

 3     report that would help me recall.

 4        Q.   Can we have the next page in English, please, and please take a

 5     look at this.  Look at all the kinds of bandannas you can find here

 6     without a knot, embroidered with floral embroidery, and a few are green.

 7     A few are green, Mr. Manning.  There are some made of satin.  Please look

 8     at your very own paper here.

 9             How did you rule this out?  How did you rule out something that

10     you had not even been informed about, namely this possibility that these

11     were gifts from women and ritual artefacts?  How could a Serb soldier

12     have this many embroidered cloths?

13        A.   Your Honours, my -- my view is that the blindfolds and cloth

14     ligatures that were the same, which matched, appeared to come from a

15     manufacturing process.  I don't know, and I assume that if I had an

16     intention to blindfold a significant number of people, I would go to a

17     clothing factory, and I would grab a great handful of cloths and I would

18     use those as blindfolds.  And I note some of the items that I've listed

19     there were used opportunistically, a piece of handkerchief, a piece of

20     clothing, a piece of pants.  And I've indicated on this document the

21     condition of those items and, more importantly, where they were located.

22     If I've identified the item as a blindfold, it is because there is a

23     photograph of an item on a body and an autopsy report that indicates

24     that, or the blindfold is located within the grave and is in such -- and

25     is documented, and is of such similar construction and shape and has

Page 25879

 1     human hair in the knot that it was considered to be a blindfold.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, the LZ01-596, the discoloured strip

 4     of cloth minus the knot, we do actually have a photograph of it here on

 5     the -- it's on that large composite.  So if there's any further questions

 6     on it, we can actually bring that up and the witness can look at it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to see the picture, Mr. Karadzic?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  It might be better to give the witness the hard

11     copy.  The one in e-court isn't particularly good resolution.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Can we not -- yes.  We don't have any difficulty

13     giving the hard copy to the witness.  But why don't we upload it at the

14     same time.  What's the e-court number?

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, it was Exhibit 4508.  It's in the

16     far right-hand column, and it's the seventh photo down.

17             JUDGE KWON:  4508.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.

19             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I just need the reference

20     to the body number again, LZ-2.

21             JUDGE KWON:  LZ01 --

22             MR. MITCHELL:  596.

23             THE WITNESS:  The image has an arrow on it indicating the

24     blindfold in situ on the individual's head; that is, placed on the

25     individual's head.  We could check the autopsy report, but normally that

Page 25880

 1     arrow would indicate a bullet hole corresponding through the skull with a

 2     hole through the blindfold.  In this instance, you can see the blindfold

 3     adhering to the victim's head, covering his eyes.

 4             If you -- if you see it's where the cursor is now.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Is that the one?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the one, Your Honour.

 7     I believe -- you can see that this is an image at the mortuary.  The

 8     white underneath the body is a body bag.  These photos were take when the

 9     body first arrived at the mortuary, before the body was cleaned up, but

10     the pathologist would look at that body and examine that blindfold and

11     report on that blindfold when he or she examined the body, noting the

12     blindfold and the injuries to the skull.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Could you please indicate which one that is, and where does it

15     say 956?  Can we identify that?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   There is no arrow there, the one that you referred to.  And let

18     us see whether that is a ribbon that is not tied but is braided or sewn.

19        A.   I've circled the arrow on that photograph, and without examining

20     the cleaned-up version of that blindfold, I can't tell you the

21     construction.

22             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, this is one of the ones.  Lazete 1

23     is in Mr. Manning's second or third report.  These images of LZ1 are not

24     contained in those -- in the two volumes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, you can find the original picture.

Page 25881

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.  We can find the original and then maybe

 2     tender it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Or disclose it to the Defence.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The Defence should have it by --

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  They should already have it but we can find it and

 7     offer it into evidence.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Could you initial and date it.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  This will be next Defence exhibit.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2189, Your Honours.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Let us now deal with what was done here.  You said today at one

14     point in time that the Prosecutor -- rather, the investigation from the

15     OTP agreed with the findings.  What about the Defence, the Serb side, as

16     a party concerned?  Did they agree to anything, and did they take any

17     part in this investigation?

18        A.   If -- if I understand the last part of your question, the

19     exhumation and autopsy process was conducted by predominantly the ICTY.

20     We very deliberately excluded nationals from any of the entities being

21     involved in that process.  We had no Serbs or Muslims involved -- sorry,

22     Bosnian Serbs or Muslims involved in that exhumation/autopsy process, and

23     I believe that ICMP had some staff from the other entities, but Serb

24     judicial officials or Bosnian judicial officials and investigators were

25     excluded from the exhumation site and the autopsy examination process.

Page 25882

 1        Q.   After that, you or the Tribunal or the OTP, did you hand over the

 2     investigation to the Muslim side from 2001 or whatever it was that you

 3     said?

 4        A.   Yes.  We handed over responsibility for the mass graves to the

 5     Bosnian Commission for Missing People -- Persons, and they continued the

 6     recovery of the bodies, and the Bosnian court is conducting

 7     investigations into Srebrenica.  The Office of the Prosecutor handed over

 8     investigative files.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that out there in Bosnia there is a lot

10     of dispute involved in the work of that commission?  The Serb side is

11     challenging all of it, and the Muslim side is interested in portraying

12     things in order to say that the number of victims is as big as possible?

13        A.   I'm aware there's a conflict.  The number of missing from

14     Srebrenica is being defined by the independent

15     International Commission for Missing Persons, but I'm not up-to-date on

16     the conflict between the various entities.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you observed that in each and

18     every grave the degree of degradation or decay of the bodies varied to a

19     large degree at that?

20        A.   Yes.  Most of the graves showed a variance in degrees of

21     decomposition.  Perhaps less so at Orahovac 1 because of the condition of

22     the grave, but some bodies in the same grave were completely skeletonised

23     and others were predominantly fleshed.

24        Q.   In one and the same grave?

25        A.   Yes.  For instance, in the Kozluk mass grave, the bodies that

Page 25883

 1     were away from the other individuals tended to be completely

 2     skeletonised.  The ones within the mass of bodies were -- tended to be

 3     fleshed.  I'm not an expert, but I understand why.  And we saw that in

 4     various graves.  If the body was nearer to the surface, had access to

 5     oxygen or the soil conditions were such, the body would decompose

 6     differently.

 7        Q.   I take that into account, that you're not an expert, but tell me,

 8     is that the only explanation?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   But you see, here it is experts who said that that is not the

11     only explanation possible but that there are other explanations that are

12     possible, too.

13             Now I'm asking you about the blindfolds.  Are your explanations

14     the only ones, and how did you rule out all others?

15        A.   If I can, you asked me if that was the own explanation.  Taking a

16     view of the total evidence available, that's the only explanation.  Had

17     the bodies come from different time periods and different graves or had

18     been left on the surface to decompose, there would have been evidence of

19     that.  If you took the bodies in a mass grave, some were skeletonised,

20     some were fleshed, they were within the same grave, and there was no

21     evidence that they had been buried in a separate incident, separated by

22     months, years.

23             And as to my examination of the blindfolds, every single

24     blindfold that I identified had previously been identified by one of the

25     experts, archaeologists and anthropologists, as a blindfold.  I sought to

Page 25884

 1     confirm that was documented and was consistent, and if I found a

 2     blindfold that did not have a photograph showing it in situ or did not

 3     have a complete record, then would I discount that blindfold, because I

 4     took a very conservative view of only including items that we could

 5     definitively prove the process and the location of.

 6        Q.   How is it that you established that there is no proof that there

 7     were burials in stages, and did you receive any explanation to the effect

 8     as to where persons were buried over those 45 months?

 9        A.   I'm not an archaeologist.  I'm not an expert.  The experts that I

10     spoke to described the graves to me.  They showed me the construction of

11     the graves.  They showed me how there was evidence when a grave was

12     disturbed, which is how they know that a primary grave was robbed.  But

13     even as a layman I could see that.  If there was evidence which showed

14     that there had been multiple burial incidents, that would be obvious in

15     the soil, in the make-up of the grave, in the position of the bodies, in

16     the soil and vegetation that was collected with the bodies.  There would

17     be evidence of that difference.  And in some instances we found

18     vegetation with the bodies, which is consistent with middle of summer in

19     Bosnia, in that region.  Had they been killed at a different time of

20     year, we would expect to see evidence of that.  Had they been infested by

21     insects because they were on the surface for months, we would expect to

22     see that.  We would find that evidence.  I've spoken to the experts.

23     That's my understanding of their process, and as a layman, I saw that

24     within the graves.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So now you are not conveying your own expert insight

Page 25885

 1     but, rather, what others said to you; is that right?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  He confirmed that he's not an expert, and

 3     you're still putting the questions, inviting him to tell us what he heard

 4     from experts.  It's about time to conclude, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'll do my best to

 6     finish fairly soon.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Tell me, do you know that fighters used to put ribbons on their

 9     sleeves and elsewhere on the left and right, and do you know that the

10     ribbons that you saw on a hand were perhaps not ligatures but a ribbon

11     that was used to mark soldiers?

12        A.   I'm vaguely aware that some soldiers would use that practice.

13     I'm not aware of it being used predominantly in Bosnia.  The ligatures

14     were tightly bound around the wrists of the individuals.  They were in

15     the cloth ligatures.  They were in the figure of an eight.  They bound

16     the hands of the individual, and that individual could not move their

17     arms.  I don't believe that they were armbands.

18        Q.   Well, we saw in those photographs of yours, Mr. Manning, we saw

19     ribbons at different levels, if you look at the hands and arms.  We can

20     look at that, but there's not much time today.

21             Did you see that there were remnants of a ribbon at different

22     levels on a hand or arm?

23        A.   No.  We didn't find what you would describe as ribbons around the

24     arm or the forearm or the upper arm of individuals.  We found cloth

25     ligatures binding both hands, or we found wire ligatures binding both

Page 25886

 1     hands, or we found a figure-eight ligature binding one hand and clearly

 2     in a shape of a figure-eight where both hands had been passed through

 3     that cloth.

 4        Q.   Tell us, please, the last topic and the last question, do you

 5     know people who work at ICMP, Rifet Kasetovic, Zlatan Sabanovic?

 6        A.   I believe Rifet Kasetovic may be someone I know.  I'm not

 7     familiar with the other name, but I said before that people from Bosnia,

 8     Serbia, Croatia, are employed at ICMP.

 9        Q.   But this one, Kasetovic is the director, and Sabanovic is also a

10     high official.  What about Director Edin Jasaragic does that name ring a

11     bell?

12        A.   It does not, Your Honour, but I would accept that Mr. Kasetovic

13     was the director.  It rings a memory.  Probably the director of the

14     Bosnian commission for missing people rather than the

15     International Commission for Missing Persons.

16        Q.   I don't have time to ask you about the other prominent Muslims in

17     that institution.  Let me ask you this:  Do you know that recently they

18     came out with some corrections and they said that 500 were still living,

19     and then they said that 70 were included there, although they were not

20     victims, and then during the last week or two they came up with the

21     following thesis:  That some amputees were include among the dead for no

22     reason whatsoever.  There was no justification for that.  These people

23     are still living.

24             Were you aware of that?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Manning.  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

Page 25887

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I have about three objections to

 2     that.  One, it's assuming a lot of things that aren't in evidence.  Two,

 3     if the reference to 500 is a reference to Mirsad Tokaca, that's got

 4     nothing to do with ICMP.  And three, this reference to during the last

 5     week or two, they came up with the thesis, again there's no basis for

 6     that in this case.  And if Mr. Karadzic wants to put that case to

 7     Mr. Manning, I think we need to see some kind of foundation for it, or he

 8     can save it and put it to Dr. Parsons, who will be here in the next

 9     couple of weeks.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Could you break down and ask one

11     question at a time with specific and precise reference, if necessary.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Manning, that to this day the number has not

16     been established and that as time goes by the number is decreasing?

17        A.   No.  If I understand you to mean ICMP's DNA analysis, I'm aware

18     that it has been increasing.  I would expect it to increase as they

19     continue their investigation, but if I may, to answer your previous

20     question, I deliberately do not examine the court proceedings and

21     testimony before I'm going to be a witness, so I'm not aware of any of

22     those claims against ICMP or the Bosnian commission.

23        Q.   Have you heard of the Bosnian commission saying that by mistake

24     some amputees were included in the number of the victims who were dead,

25     whereas these persons are still alive?

Page 25888

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Last question.  How do you explain this:  that at the so-called

 3     execution sites -- or, rather, in the graves that are there, there are

 4     hundreds and even thousands of shell casings?  Does that not indicate

 5     that those were the places from where fire was opened and that these were

 6     perhaps even trenches, that these were combat positions?

 7        A.   No.  In the majority of cases, there's no evidence of a battle

 8     being fought in the remote areas where the execution points were, and the

 9     evidence from the experts, which I saw myself, was that the shooters

10     stood in a particular area, fired at the victims, and the rounds ejected

11     in a specific area which was either into the grave or collected up when

12     the grave was made or when the grave was robbed.

13        Q.   In the graves and just by the graves, did you find any shell

14     casings?  In the graves, too, casings of a large calibre?

15        A.   We predominantly found 762 -- 7.62 rounds.  We found some shotgun

16     pellets.  We found some small-arms rounds.  We found one shell case

17     associated with a body at Nova Kasaba 99.  We found parts of grenades,

18     and we found what I believe was a part of a rocket propelled grenade

19     within the various graves.

20        Q.   How do you explain the fact that there were cases of

21     large-calibre shells in those graves?  Who targeted those sites?  How did

22     you draw the conclusion that this was a firing position, that there was a

23     fire position from which large-calibre weapons were used to open fire?

24        A.   Your Honours, there was one shell case from an

25     anti-aircraft-style weapon found associated with one body in a shallow

Page 25889

 1     grave which we assumed was a gun emplacement.  It was the only incident

 2     that I can recall of that.

 3             The other shell cases, and I physically saw evidence, and I'm

 4     aware after having fired the same sort of weapon, that an AK-47 will

 5     eject in a certain direction.  It will eject to the left of the weapon

 6     and the shells will normally land in that direction.  When you examine

 7     where the shell cases were found, they indicated the shooters were

 8     standing in a particular location.  Those shell cases were generally

 9     ejected to a certain area, and then we would find shell cases amongst the

10     bodies within the grave, in the clothing, within the fill of the grave,

11     perhaps pushed into the grave by heavy machinery, and then transported

12     from one site, the primary grave or execution point, to the secondary

13     grave.

14        Q.   Sir --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My last question.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   In the forensic summary, May 2000, page 67, it says that 1.031

19     shell cases were found, and in many places there were tens -- there was a

20     ten or a dozen of them.  You found more shell cases than bullets.  You

21     found 90 bullet cartridges but you found more shell cases.  So my claim

22     is that this wasn't properly investigated and that fire was opened from

23     large-calibre weapons from those positions and trenches were then used in

24     order to bury bodies.

25        A.   The shell cases referred to, Your Honours, were predominantly

Page 25890

 1     7.62 rounds.  They were small shell cases.  It's probably the case that a

 2     shell case could be a large shell case from an anti-aircraft or tank or

 3     similar.  That's not what we found.  That's not what I was describing.

 4     And again, briefly, the archaeologists would establish that it was a

 5     rectangular grave with a lamp built by a heavy machine.  It was not a

 6     fighting trench.  That would be very clear.  I did not see or read or

 7     talk to anyone who indicated that they were defensive trenches in any

 8     way.

 9        Q.   Are you saying that an ordinary bullet cartridge --

10             JUDGE KWON:  We have a stop, otherwise you cannot enter the

11     facility.

12             If absolutely necessary, we can continue, but I am wondering

13     about the quality -- by the line of questioning.  I think you exhausted

14     the topic.

15             Do you have re-examination, Mr. Mitchell?

16             MR. MITCHELL:  I'd like five minutes, but I don't want to be the

17     difference between keeping the witness here overnight.  So --

18             JUDGE KWON:  We need to stop here.  We can't go -- given the

19     Dutch transportation.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  If we need to finish here, then I have nothing

21     further.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Or we can continue tomorrow morning for ten minutes.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  No.  I'll have nothing.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Did you mean to put last question?  But I think

25     you -- we need to stop.

Page 25891

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I was only asking why bullet cartridges were being described as

 3     shell cases.

 4        A.   Your Honours, ballistics expert perhaps would use a different

 5     term.  A shell case can refer to a small round, it can refer to a big

 6     round.  It's the casing left over.  The bullet is the head.  The casing

 7     would hold the ammunition, the explosive.  It is still correct to call it

 8     a shell casing, a bullet shell casing.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you all, and in particular, thank you,

11     Mr. Manning.

12             Am I being heard?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Can I just offer a special thank to

14     Judge Lattanzi, who has had a particularly long day.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Manning, for your coming to The Hague

16     to give your evidence, and I thank all the staff for their kind

17     indulgence.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.36 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day

23                           of March, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.