Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26810

 1                           Monday, 26 March 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             I wanted to respond very quickly to a communication from

10     Mr. Robinson that I believe the Court is aware of concerning scheduling

11     for the upcoming week that was sent on the 23rd at about 5.30.  In any

12     event, if just to remind the Court, this referred to the Defence

13     inability to cross-examine a particular -- have a particular witness

14     called, in short.  And basically I wanted to endorse Mr. Robinson's

15     communication.  The Court will certainly be aware of the prodigious

16     efforts, behind-the-scene efforts by the Prosecution to ensure that the

17     schedule proceeds seamlessly.

18             In this case, we had a witness who was unable to appear before

19     Easter.  That was the next witness in order and so we undertook every

20     effort possible to fill the schedule.  That obviously is made more

21     difficult by the upcoming one-week break, which means that one of the

22     priorities has to be not having a witness remain for that period of time.

23             I think everyone did their best.  We're grateful for the Defence

24     accommodation with respect to one of the witnesses and their willingness

25     to have that witness called, and we completely understand the Defence

Page 26811

 1     position with respect to the other witness.  I didn't think it was fair

 2     to allow that e-mail to sit out there alone without providing that kind

 3     of feedback.

 4             So I just wanted to let the Court know.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 6             While we're discussing some administrative matters, with the

 7     indulgence of the witness, if I can ask Mr. Robinson, since you informed

 8     us that the Defence is minded to present an oral submission for

 9     Rule 98 bis, then can I ask you how -- how long after the close of the

10     Prosecution case you would need for its preparation?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think we could do it within

12     one week of the final closing of the Prosecution's case, which would

13     include any decision on outstanding motions so that we know what -- all

14     of the evidence that the Prosecution have been allowed to make as part of

15     its case.  Within one week after that, we would be prepared to present

16     our oral motion.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Yes, if the witness could take the solemn declaration, please,

19     now.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West, good morning to you.

22             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

23     Honours.

24             May I go into private session, please.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, could the Chamber go into private session.

Page 26812

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Page 26813

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, good morning, madam.

 7             If you could take the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 9     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  CHRISTINE SCHMITZ

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Schmitz.  Please make yourself

12     comfortable.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

16                           Examination by Ms. West:

17        Q.   Good morning, ma'am.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   What is your name?

20        A.   Christine Schmitz.

21        Q.   And what is your profession?

22        A.   My profession is nurse.

23        Q.   And how long have you been a nurse?

24        A.   Well, I did my exams in 1984.

25        Q.   Okay.  Did you work for a non-governmental organisation in

Page 26814

 1     July of 1995 posted in Srebrenica?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, could you bear in mind the interpreters.

 4             MS. WEST:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Both of you are speaking the same language.  Please

 6     put a pause between question and answer.  Thank you.

 7             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 90323.

 8        Q.   Ma'am, in front you, you'll see a piece of paper.  It says

 9     amalgamated witness statement and your signature on the bottom.  This

10     statement was prepared containing relevant portions of two interviews

11     that you gave to the OTP.  One was in 1999; and one was last year.  It

12     also contains additional clarifications that you have recently given.

13             Is this the statement that you signed on March 21st, last week?

14        A.   Yes, this is the statement I signed.

15        Q.   And can you confirm that this statement accurately reflects an

16     amalgamation of your previous interviews and the information you previous

17     -- just provided?

18        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

19        Q.   And if you were asked today about the same matters in the

20     statement, would you give substantially the same information?

21        A.   Yes, I would.

22             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would ask that the statement be

23     admitted.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4752, Your Honours.

Page 26815

 1             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, there also are several associated

 2     exhibits but I would like to make a correction in regard to the last

 3     exhibit admitted on the table, which is 65 ter 31314D.  We're not going

 4     to tender that.  I will ask her about it and just ask that it be marked

 5     for identification.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Shall we deal with the associated

 7     exhibit, in-chief examination is over.  You are not going to ask any

 8     questions.

 9             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I am going to ask some questions.

10     However, if I had a sense as to the Trial Chamber's position on the

11     associated exhibits, I might ask less questions.  But I'm certainly

12     prepared to deal with it at the end.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we do that.

14             MS. WEST:  Thank you very much.

15             Your Honour, if I can read a very short summary.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, for the public.

17             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

18             Christine Schmitz is a nurse who began working in the Srebrenica

19     hospital in late June 1995.  She was present in the town of Srebrenica

20     when the attack started on 6 July.  On the 11th, she and her colleagues

21     evacuated to Potocari where she reported a lack of water and food for the

22     refugees.

23             On the 12th and 13th, she witnessed the deportation of the

24     refugees and the separations of the Muslim males.  Ms. Schmitz was

25     present at a meeting on the 15th with the VRS and Bosnian Serb

Page 26816

 1     representatives where the evacuation of patients, staff, including the

 2     local staff, was discussed.  Her patients were evacuated on 17th, and on

 3     the 21st, she left Potocari along with the Dutch and UN Military

 4     Observers.  However, not all of her local male staff made it out.

 5        Q.   Ms. Schmitz, I'm just going to have a few questions for you.

 6             MS. WEST:  And if I can have 65 ter 23109.  And this is in

 7     e-court page 59.

 8        Q.   And, Ms. Schmitz, for you, this is July 15th, and it's ending in

 9     6193.

10             MS. WEST:  I'll just put on the record that the witness has her

11     documents in front of her in hard copy for ease of reference.  Thank you.

12        Q.   So, ma'am, in front of us we have a document, it's hard to read

13     but it's the 15th of July.  Do you recognise what form of document this

14     is?

15        A.   Yes.  This is A telex I had sent to the team that Belgrade.

16        Q.   Okay.  And on the 15th July is this a period of time when you

17     were in Potocari?

18        A.   Yes, I was in Potocari.

19        Q.   Now, in the beginning of this document it says:

20             "Nikolic was just here in order to arrange a meeting for tonight

21     with the UN and senior officers of the BSA."

22             And then on the agenda we have three items:  One, evacuation of

23     wounded; two, local staff; three, leaving of UNPROFOR.

24             Can you tell us about number two, what was the discussion

25     expected to be about the local staff?

Page 26817

 1        A.   Well, there was still eight local staff members with us, with

 2     Daniel and me - Daniel was my Australian colleague - and seven of the

 3     eight were young male staff, and one female translator.  They stayed with

 4     us in the UN compound in Potocari, and given that the population had been

 5     deported and the male Bosnian population been separated, we didn't know

 6     what would happen to them.  So the discussion was supposed to be -- or my

 7     agenda was that I wanted to take the national staff with us out of

 8     Potocari.

 9        Q.   And this would include those males that you spoke about?

10        A.   Yes.  Especially.

11             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I'd move to admit that document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Was it one of the associated exhibits?

13             MS. WEST:  It is, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  There are several documents in the

15     same number.

16             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, if I can take a moment to explain.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MS. WEST:  There is one 65 ter number, 23109.  There are several

19     documents associated with that number.  That's a chronological order --

20     ordering of the witness's telexes that she sent out during the relevant

21     period of time.  In addition to that, on the table, you will find

22     occasions where in the amalgamated statement she was asked about specific

23     documents within that section and we've delineated those specifically for

24     you, but it will be my intention to ask for the admission of the entire

25     exhibit.

Page 26818

 1             JUDGE KWON:  On a technical issue why do I see a document that

 2     says:

 3             "Document to be used in private session and tendered under seal."

 4     I can't -- I can't see the content on my personal computer.

 5             MS. WEST:  I think that could be a mistake as to the beginning of

 6     the front -- cover page of this document.  These documents will not be

 7     tendered under seal.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Uh-huh.  What's the page number of this document,

 9     what we just saw?

10             MS. WEST:  E-court 59.  And for the actual page number, on the

11     right-hand corner, it is R0106193.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So you are tendering the entire document or only

13     this page?

14             MS. WEST:  I would like, at the end, tender the entire document.

15     I'm unclear as to how you would like me to proceed.  I am going to go

16     through at least ten of these documents.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Let me consult my colleagues.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you proceed and then let us consider

21     whether to admit in its entirety or separately at the end of your

22     examination.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  May I have the same 65 ter number, number

24     65 in e-court.

25        Q.   And, ma'am, this is for you page number 6199.  This is just the

Page 26819

 1     next day, July 16th.  It's on the screen in front of you as well.

 2             In this telex it says:

 3             "In the meeting yesterday, a list with all names of local staff

 4     has been given to the BSA plus a number of patients in Potocari."

 5             Ma'am, the meeting that this refers to, is this the meeting that

 6     you had on the 15th?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And can you tell us about the list that was given?

 9        A.   Well, the list had been prepared by one of the colleagues of that

10     national team, and I had given it to the BSA in that meeting.  I

11     certainly did not have the list of the 45 patients in Bratunac because

12     these patients were - how to say this? - the list was with the UN.  I had

13     no knowledge about or not much knowledge about what was happening to them

14     and so on.  So that list was not given by me but by the UN.

15        Q.   And let's focus for a moment about the list that contains just

16     the names of the local staff.  And that list, is that a list that you

17     gave to the VRS and the BSA authorities on the 15th?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   We're going to move to e-court page 66.  And in hard copy, this

20     is 6200.

21             This is also from the 16th.  And is this another telex that you

22     wrote?

23        A.   Yes, this is another telex.

24        Q.   Okay.  If we go down to about the middle it says:

25             "Please confirm again my thoughts:  MSF will stay if our local

Page 26820

 1     staff cannot be included in the convoy and leave then later with the

 2     local staff."

 3             Ma'am, on the 16th, what the was your intention regarding whether

 4     to stay or go and how the local staff played in that?

 5        A.   Well, I thought always that Daniel, myself, and the national

 6     staff remaining with us, we would leave with the convoy of the patients.

 7     So the convoy of the patients was planned for the 17th, and I was still

 8     of the intention to go with the national staff on that convoy.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And the next sentence is:

10             "According to UNPROFOR we can go together, but you never know.

11     Every local staff has an MSF shirt/west and is identified with ID with

12     their job they have in MSF."

13             Here it talks about an identification card for the local staff.

14     Can you tell us about that process?  Did all local staff receive an

15     identification card?

16        A.   Well, when I arrived in Srebrenica, people had that already, so I

17     wouldn't be able today to confirm that everybody had one, and I remember

18     in one of the other telexes it is being said that one guy had lost it.

19     But so normally, yes, national staff with MSF does have an ID card if is

20     a well-settled programme.  Maybe not in the first days of an emergency.

21        Q.   Okay.  If we go down to the very bottom it says -- it's after

22     your name, "XTINA," and then 3.50:

23             [As read] "Please don't be disappointed:  Just get informed by

24     UN -- just got informed by UN:  Mr. Deronjic Miroslav, special rep of

25     Karadzic in Bratunac, called and informed that the convoy passed Zvornik

Page 26821

 1     and it was on its way to here.  Five minutes later Tuzla called and

 2     informed us that the convoy has been shot at and had to return."

 3             This information, is this information that you received yourself

 4     or did you receive it from someone else?

 5        A.   I received it from somebody of the UN.  What happened in Potocari

 6     is that there was always one of the soldiers running behind me if there

 7     was some news I was supposed to have from, for example, Commander

 8     Franken.  So I wouldn't remember who that soldier was but he came to me

 9     and told me that information.

10        Q.   Okay.  And regard to this name Miroslav Deronjic, special

11     representative of Karadzic, at the time is this somebody that you knew?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   All right.  I'm going to talk to you about little bit about the

14     times here.

15             We see before this it says 3.50 and then up top it says:

16             "Hello Stephan and Belgrade team," and then it says 3.25.

17             Tell us about these times and the process by which you wrote

18     this.

19        A.   Well, you do have on the telexes as well the time when it's being

20     sent, but sometimes there was time in between.  Sometimes I started to

21     write and then something came in between and I sent it off later.  But

22     here that is a very good example.  I started to write by 3.25, maybe

23     that's my German pedantics, and then when I finished it I just wanted to

24     send it off.  And you can see here 3.50, then this information came and I

25     just put it at the end behind my name, and four minutes later I sent it

Page 26822

 1     off.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And so this information at the very bottom, is this

 3     information that you typed in almost directly after you received it?

 4        A.   Exactly.

 5        Q.   And this process by which you were typing your telexes -- strike

 6     that.

 7             When you received information that you thought was important to

 8     go into a telex, how much time passed before you actually wrote the

 9     telex?

10        A.   This cannot be answered in terms of every half an hour after news

11     came up I wrote a telex because I balanced it with my other tasks.  So my

12     principle was as quick as possible, because I knew that Belgrade needed

13     the information.  But, again, for example, when a situation happens where

14     wounded are included, I wouldn't first write a telex and then take care

15     for the wounded but the other way around.

16             So as close to the event when things happened I wrote, but not

17     always immediately.

18        Q.   Okay.  I know you've had an opportunity to look at all the

19     telexes that are referenced in your amalgamated statement.  Is that --

20     does that process apply to all of them?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   We're now going to look at 65 ter 23111.  And --

23        A.   What was the number for me?

24        Q.   65 ter 23111.  You will see it on the screen in front of you

25     shortly.

Page 26823

 1        A.   Okay.

 2        Q.   This is a listing of several names, and some of the names in it

 3     have circles around them.  Can you tell us about this document and about

 4     the events that produced this document.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before you proceed, could you take a look at the

 6     LiveNote and there's request from the interpreters and court reporters.

 7     Please be slow or put a pause between question and answer.

 8             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Schmitz.

10             THE WITNESS:  Could you kindly repeat the question.

11             MS. WEST:

12        Q.   Yes.  The document we see in front of us, for example, number 3

13     has a circle around it.  Can you tell us about the events surrounding

14     this document and that circle?

15        A.   Okay.  So this document is the document of the patients who were

16     on the 17th of July present in Potocari under our care.  When it became

17     clear that ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross, would

18     evacuate the patients on 17th, Commander Nikolic of BSA wanted to inspect

19     all the patients in the UN compound.  The list had been prepared not by

20     myself personally but one of my national colleagues, and so whilst

21     Commander Nikolic was going around the little hospital where the patients

22     were laying, I circled seven names of seven male patients.  And these

23     seven male patients were supposed to remain with the Ministry of Health

24     in Bratunac and were not allowed to continue with ICRC to Tuzla because

25     they were supposed to be war criminals.  So that's the reason why I

Page 26824

 1     circled them.

 2             I need one moment ...

 3             I believe because number 3 is circled but then scratched, that

 4     this one was -- he was not among them.  You will find seven clearly

 5     marked names after.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Schmitz, you called -- you said Commander

 8     Nikolic.  So you understood him at the time to be a commander.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS:  That is true.

12             MS. WEST:  May we go to page 10.  E-court page 10 of this

13     document.

14        Q.   And it's the last page of this document.

15             And this is notes, handwritten notes, and they appear to be on

16     the back page, and in the middle we have:

17             "Meeting Nikolic, July 17th, 1.00.  Civil affairs commissioner."

18             Please tell us about this meeting.

19        A.   That was one of the two meetings on that day with members of BSA.

20     So that meeting was with Commander Nikolic and the commissioner of civil

21     affairs whose name I don't know.  And basically it refers to the telex we

22     had spoken a bit earlier about, where the convoy had been shot at.  And

23     here I note down that we should accept the apologies about that event,

24     and that Commander Franken of UNPROFOR would not accept the selection

25     inquiry of the patients which happened any way, afterwards.

Page 26825

 1        Q.   Right before this -- excuse me.  Please go ahead.

 2        A.   So in this meeting, also it was said that the local staff of MSF

 3     had been amnestied.

 4        Q.   We'll get to that in one moment.  But I just want to back up for

 5     a moment.

 6             Before this document we looked at your document from July 16th.

 7     We don't have to go back there.  But this was the document where you

 8     talked about the addition at 3.50, Miroslav Deronjic special rep of

 9     Mr. Karadzic had called.

10             Did you understand that that Miroslav Deronjic was this same

11     person that you met on the 17th?

12        A.   Today for me it would be only logical but I do not remember that

13     at that time I realised that is the same person.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MS. WEST:  May we have 65 ter 23132.

16        Q.   And, ma'am, you're just going to see this on the screen.  I think

17     that will be easier.  This is July 17th, the same day as this meeting.

18     And here it says:

19             "Just coming from a meeting with Nikolic and the commissioner of

20     Bratunac."

21             If we go down it says:

22             "All local staff will be [sic] amnestied."

23             Is this what you were referring to a few minutes ago?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And what did you understand that to mean?

Page 26826

 1        A.   Well, at that time, it was only important for me.  I didn't know

 2     what it meant, amnestied.  But I understood it that the national staff

 3     could remain with us and leave with us.

 4        Q.   As opposed to doing what?

 5        A.   As opposed to have to let them go and let them separated by BSA

 6     or whatever, but the fate of the other men in Potocari.  Do I say this

 7     clearly enough?

 8             Well, basically my worry was that the male national staff would

 9     be killed, and this is what I wanted to prevent.  And by getting informed

10     that they were amnestied, I understood that they wouldn't be killed.

11        Q.   We're going to go to 65 ter 23109.  E-court page 68.

12             And you can just see it in front of you if that's easier.

13             This is -- we're backing up a day, but this is July 16th.

14             This is e-court page 68 of 65 ter 23109.

15             Thank you.

16             All right.  This document says:  "Hello, Stephan."

17             Tell us who Stephan is?

18        A.   Stephan, actually, that's the name -- the way I called it.  He

19     was our head of mission in Belgrade.

20        Q.   Okay.  And down the document it says:

21             "Here, follow the names of our local staff."

22             And then it's a listing of eight names.

23             Did you put these names in this telex?

24        A.   Yes, I did put the names in the telex.  I did not put the list

25     together because I didn't have the time for that.  I believe that one of

Page 26827

 1     the national staff put it together.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 31314D.  And we'll need page 3,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   Now, this is an intercept from July 19th.  And starting on

 6     page 3, I'm going to read through this and then ask you questions as we

 7     go.  It says:

 8             "Is this Jankovic?

 9             "Speaking.

10             "Hello.

11             "Speaking.

12             "Colonel Djurdjic speaking.

13             "I'm listening.

14             "Janko?

15             "Yes.

16             "Is that you?

17             "Yes, it's me.

18             "We should talk but I've got to make an effort to hear you.

19             "Okay.

20             "Regarding what you were asking?

21             "Yes.

22             "The boss has ordered that they be halted.

23             "Yes.

24             "This is what he wrote.

25             "Yes.

Page 26828

 1             "That Christina" - I think it's Schmitz - "the nurse can go."

 2             So obviously is this a reference to you.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And Daniel O'Brien.  Can you tell us who Daniel O'Brien is?

 5        A.   That was my Australian colleague.

 6        Q.   And I'll continue:

 7             "Yes.

 8             "The physician."

 9             Was he a physician?

10        A.   Yeah, he was.

11        Q.   Okay.  I'll continue:

12             "Can you hear me well?

13             "Yes."

14             And this is the next page -- yes, apologies.

15             "You hear me well?

16             "I can hear you.

17             "And only women and children can go.  Understand?

18             "And what about those young men?

19             "Others ... I don't know, they might require the whole group to

20     go.

21             "Say again?

22             "That they will require, but they have government's permission

23     for all of them to go.

24             "God-damn it, can we do this conversation through the girl?  I

25     have to ask her to act as a mediator here ..."

Page 26829

 1             I'll stop there for a moment.  Were there occasions where you did

 2     act as a mediator for people from the BSA?

 3        A.   Mediating between BSA and whom?

 4        Q.   Strike that.  Let me ask another question.  Were there occasions

 5     where you had negotiations with the BSA regarding issues?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  We'll continue.

 8             "Listen.

 9             "Yes.

10             "So, they have permission from ... the Koljevic government?

11             "Yes.

12             "That they can all go.  They have a list."

13             I'm going to stop there.

14             What follows is a list of names.  And I want you to follow this

15     list of names but I'm going to read out the list of names from

16     65 ter 23109, e-court page 68, from a few days before, a telex we just

17     looked at, and I'm going to ask you whether I read the list of names from

18     your telex follows this intercept.

19             So the first name that I have from your telex is Abdulah

20     Perkovic.  The second name I have is Ibrahim Ibramovic [phoen].  The

21     third name is Muhidin Husic.  Then I have Muhamed Masic, Sahin Talovic,

22     Hajrudin Kurtic, and Omer Talovic.

23             First of all, do you recognise those names?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   And who are those people?

Page 26830

 1        A.   This is the male local staff.  Only the first surname of Abdulah,

 2     Abdulah the cook, is not correctly written.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And we'll just continue a bit more on this intercept.

 4             It says:

 5             "They are taking them as local staff and they have permission

 6     from Karadz ..." and it stops and it says "Koljevic."

 7             "All right, they have permission but you know that the procedure

 8     you too took part in?

 9             "Great.

10             "Pardon?

11             "Great, if that's your position, it's good.  The procedure is

12     such, god-damned it, that it should be checked whether those --"

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We better have the English one for

14     the benefit of the interpreters and court reporter.  It disappeared.

15             Bottom part.

16             MS. WEST:  And I'm just going to have a few more sentences,

17     Mr. President.

18        Q.   And at the bottom here:

19             "The procedure is such, god-damned it, that it should be checked

20     whether those ... are they able-bodied or older than 60."

21             So my question for you, ma'am, these male local staff who worked

22     for your organisation, were they able-bodied men?  Were they not very

23     young and not very old, were they somewhere in the middle?

24        A.   Yes, they was.

25             MS. WEST:  I'd like to go to 65 ter 23135.

Page 26831

 1             This is dated July 20th.

 2        Q.   At the bottom of this telex the last sentence is -- I think it

 3     says:

 4             "Two male translators of our staff have disappeared before the

 5     evacuation.  Meho apparently has been taken out of the buses."

 6             Can you tell us who Meho was?

 7        A.   Meho was our eighth male national staff.  He was a logistician

 8     and sanitation staff member, and he had been suspended from work by the

 9     local opstina before I arrived on the 24th of June.  So I had met him

10     only once before the bombing started, during the distribution of hygienic

11     passes as an incentive.  On the 13th of July, I met him in the crowd of

12     displaced population outside of the UN compound, and I asked him if he

13     would want to come with us or I requested that he would come with us,

14     because we needed help in the UN compound with the sanitation, but more

15     important for me also I had wanted to keep him with us for his security

16     because I was worried.  But he decided to stay with his family.

17        Q.   And when he stayed with his family on the 13th, is this on the --

18     outside of the compound at Potocari?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 4459B.  May I also request

21     assistance from an usher.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  In the meantime, Ms. Schmitz, you're using the

23     phrase "national staff" and "local staff."  Are they being used

24     interchangeably?

25             THE WITNESS:  That is the same.

Page 26832

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much, indeed.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   So now we're looking at 65 ter 4459B, which is an identification

 4     card.  For the record we have just had the actual identification card

 5     handed to you.  Are you holding that now?

 6        A.   Yes, I'm holding it.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise this card?

 8        A.   Yes, it's a typical MSF ID card.  And due to the time, since it

 9     was 1995, it is still the old logo.  MSF has a new logo developed after

10     that.  But yes, this is an MSF ID card.

11        Q.   And do you recognise the person in the picture?

12        A.   No, I don't.

13        Q.   Okay.  Can you turn the card over as well just so you see the

14     back.

15             Is this the type of ID card that local staff were using during

16     July of 1995?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 23109.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Except for the telex I propose to deal with the

20     exhibit when we are dealing with it.  First, the intercept we saw, I

21     noted that should be put under seal because I see some name of place in

22     the first page.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll mark it for identification.

25             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

Page 26833

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P4753, under seal, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And why is this ID card relevant, Ms. West, if you

 3     could tell us?

 4             MS. WEST:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             We -- you have received information already that this was an

 6     identification card that was found in one of the graves.  It was, I

 7     believe, in the Manning report.  This is an ID card that she's indicated

 8     is the type of ID card that was used by her staff in July of 1995.  She

 9     does not recognise the picture, but the information in the Manning report

10     would identify the person as Meho Bosnjakovic - I'll get the spelling for

11     you - and that is the individual in her staff who she just spoke about

12     who would not come within the compound and who left on the one of the

13     buses.  This was found in a grave.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So this is the ID card that was found in that grave.

15             MS. WEST:  Correct.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  This will be the next Prosecution

17     exhibit.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4754, Your Honours.

20             MS. WEST:  I have just one more document.  65 ter 23109, e-court

21     page 40.

22        Q.   This is July 12th.  And this is late in the afternoon.  This is

23     almost 6.00.

24             Ma'am, do you remember the events of July 12th, what happened on

25     July 12th?

Page 26834

 1        A.   Well, what happened on July 12th is that, in short, the

 2     deportation of the population started around noon.  In the morning until

 3     10, there was supposed to be a kind of cease-fire or ultimatum so it was

 4     relatively quiet.  Then quite a big number of buses and trucks arrived

 5     and the deportation of women and children and old people started.  And I

 6     understood that there were no men on the buses.  I didn't see them

 7     either.

 8             I'm sorry, maybe questions can be more defined because there was

 9     so much happening on that day that I -- yeah.

10        Q.   I'll ask you another question.

11             During the day on July 12th, were you inside the compound or

12     outside the compound?

13        A.   Both.  I -- in -- in the early afternoon I went back and forth

14     between the compound and the big group of displaced, in order to see if

15     there were sick or wounded or dehydrated children among the displaced, or

16     people who were too old to cope, so I did bring them by myself in a

17     pick-up back into the compound into Daniel's care in the little hospital

18     in the UN compound.

19        Q.   And after you would do that once, did you then go outside again

20     to find more people?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   And can you tell us generally what the state of the people were

23     on the outside?

24        A.   Well, people who were outside had already spent one night

25     outside, had hardly anything to eat, little food.  They had brought

Page 26835

 1     whilst fleeing on the 11th from Srebrenica to Potocari little water.

 2     There was a water truck who had been sent from Bratunac.  People in

 3     general were shivering, not due to the temperature - it was extremely

 4     hot - but they were so fearful.  And the children were just laying on the

 5     ground, very apathic, not playing, not crying.  So, in short, people were

 6     horrified and -- so the condition was very difficult for them to cope and

 7     they didn't know what would go and happen.

 8        Q.   And in this telex you say:

 9             [As read] "We can hardly cope anymore.  I have no strength

10     anymore.  It is so difficult to stay in contact with you.  Please ask

11     clearance for expatriates to take over from us."

12             Can you tell us what your state of mind was at the time that you

13     wrote this?

14        A.   Well, in the early evening, I felt like I was cracking and I

15     couldn't cope anymore.  My heart was racing -- I'm sorry.

16             And I felt I couldn't do my work anymore.  I couldn't take care

17     as much as I should have done anymore, so, therefore, I wrote that telex.

18     And, of course, realising after that telex that it is not possible to be

19     replaced but by just having said "I can't anymore," it was okay.  So then

20     I lay down for some time and I rested a bit and then it was okay.  Then I

21     could continue.  But that was for me the deepest point of exhaustion

22     where I just could not cope with the situation anymore, but then I went

23     back to my normal strength and just continuing with what I thought was

24     the right thing to do.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

Page 26836

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, if you could take a look at para 24 and 25

 2     of Ms. Schmitz's statement, here you present a bunch of documents with --

 3     in relation to which Ms. Schmitz says that:

 4             "I have recently reviewed the documents and they are consistent

 5     with my memory of the events at the time."

 6             The problem the Chamber has is it -- it's difficult for -- of

 7     course, that they may speak for themselves, but the Chamber finds it

 8     difficult to find how relevant or -- they are and how they relate to the

 9     Prosecution case.

10             So I found it very useful that you dealt with several documents

11     in 23109 or some other documents here.  Otherwise, the Chamber has some

12     difficulty.  It would be much better than if you tender by bar table

13     motion because there you deal with such -- such issues.

14             But I would like to hear from the Defence, first of all.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, we would prefer the Chamber

16     to stick with its previous practice with respect to admitting documents

17     that are an indispensable part of the statement or that are referred to

18     in court as opposed to admitting documents en masse.

19             So that is our position in principle.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Are you prepared to deal with more documents?

21             MS. WEST:  I'm not, Your Honour, and I understand the Court's

22     position.  But I would ask for the admission of the specific documents I

23     addressed with the witness but for the one that is marked for

24     identification.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I lost track of the 65 ter numbers.  Shall I leave

Page 26837

 1     it to the Registrar, in consultation with the parties --

 2             MS. WEST:  Please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  -- to identify and admit them in due course.

 4             MS. WEST:  Please.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I appreciate it.  Thank you.

 6             Ma'am, are you all right?  Can we continue?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, please.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  As you noted, your evidence

 9     in-chief was primarily admitted in form -- in the form of documents,

10     i.e., in lieu of your oral testimony.  And then you will now be further

11     asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  But before -- before that, shall we move into

13     private session briefly.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26838

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, we are now in open session.

16             Please start your cross-examination.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

18     Good morning to everyone.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Schmitz.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   I'd like to ask you the following:  How many local staff members

23     did you have working for you?

24        A.   We did have 13 local staff working for us who were basically

25     important for the functioning of the mission, like a driver or a cook.

Page 26839

 1     We did not consider the staff in the hospital as our staff, but it was

 2     the staff of the Ministry of Health.

 3        Q.   And the staff from the Ministry of Health of the Muslim part of

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina, from the government in Sarajevo, when you say

 5     "staff from the Ministry of Health," these are the people you are

 6     referring to?  This is the body you are referring to; is that correct?

 7        A.   The staff of the hospital in Srebrenica I'm referring to is the

 8     staff of the Ministry of Health of Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.

 9        Q.   Did you know all of these 13 staff members?

10        A.   No -- well, yes.  I knew the 13 staff members, but as I said

11     earlier, Meho I didn't know very well because he had been suspended and I

12     met him only very briefly once.  The other staff I did not know very well

13     since I only arrived on 24th of June.  That were just 12 days before the

14     bombing on the 6th started.  I'm saying it like this because after the

15     6th, I had much contact with few staff members, like Mohammed, the

16     logistician, or the drivers, but I wouldn't remember, for example, the

17     names of the cleaners.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So could you tell us the reason for which Meho was

19     suspended?

20        A.   Well, it was Meho and Mohammed who had been suspended before my

21     arrival.  What happened is that the opstina, I believe in May, had issued

22     the suspension because they said that Mohammed Masic, our logistician,

23     should go back to school - he was a teacher before - and that others

24     should have the opportunity as well to have the job.  The unemployment in

25     the enclave was very high, and we were ones of the few who were offering

Page 26840

 1     jobs.  So my predecessor, Catherine, who I don't remember the surname,

 2     she did not agree with that because our experienced national staff is the

 3     background bone of the organisation so we didn't want to let them go.

 4     And so, as a reaction, she stopped the activities in the ambulantas

 5     around the town.  So for that -- I call it conflict, Mohammed and Meho

 6     were suspended.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You did not recognise Meho on this identity document.

 8        A.   I did not.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Well, that begs the question if it was possible to

10     forge your IDs.

11        A.   I cannot answer this question.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But those IDs were obviously effective.  They were

13     useful because people respected them; right?

14        A.   What would you mean with "respected them"?  It meant that this

15     very person was a staff member of MSF.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And why did they need them?

17        A.   It's a usual procedure within MSF and its employment principles

18     that a national staff member does have an ID.  So, for example, if a

19     driver is transporting a patient and crossing a check-point, he can

20     identify himself.

21        Q.   That's exactly what I meant.  Those IDs of yours were respected

22     at the check-points; isn't that right?

23        A.   If you refer to the situation in Srebrenica, the drivers were not

24     allowed to cross the check-point.  I meant this as a principle example.

25        Q.   But what were the IDs for, if not to be produced somewhere and in

Page 26841

 1     order to be able to pass?

 2        A.   Well, they were, for example, in Srebrenica, supposed to be able

 3     to be identified as a staff member in the city itself.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let's leave it with that.

 5             You mentioned in your statements and in today's testimony

 6     two terms:  Deportation and evacuation.  Are you familiar with the legal

 7     implications of both terms?

 8        A.   No, I'm not sufficiently familiar with it.  And I realised, when

 9     going through the documents, that I used them - how do you say this? -

10     interchangeable.  I never used the word "deportation" for the evacuation

11     of the patients on the 17th of July.  I did apply the word "deportation"

12     on the deportation of the population on 12th and 13th of July.

13        Q.   Thank you.  But without any prejudice as to the legal

14     implications; correct?

15        A.   Would you please explain me the word "prejudice"?

16        Q.   What I would like to know is whether you were selective in your

17     choice of terms based on the legal meaning of the term.  You probably

18     used these terms spontaneously without taking into account the legal

19     implications.

20        A.   I used the words and the definition as much as I knew them.  I'm

21     not claiming to know the legal implications up to the end.

22        Q.   Thank you.  On pages 15 and 16 of today's transcript, you are

23     recorded to have said that you knew about the fate of the people in

24     Potocari and that you wanted to prevent that those you wanted to protect

25     meet a similar fate.

Page 26842

 1             What did you know about the fate of the people in Potocari on

 2     that day?

 3        A.   I'm sorry, would you please repeat on which page --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It's our transcript today.  You can't scroll back.

 5     It's on your monitor.

 6             So could you be more specific -- could you repeat your question,

 7     Mr. Karadzic?

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   If convenient, I can read it out.  I can read out the answers to

10     the questions.  Just a minute.  Here it is.

11             The question was -- it is about abolition.

12             [In English] "... all local staff ... will be amnestied" --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Karadzic, I noted the

14     translation issue again.  It was translated as "abolished," but if I

15     remember correctly it should be translated "pardoned" or "amnestied" of

16     local staff.

17             So while you're dealing with those local staff, you said this.  I

18     will read it out:

19             "... as opposed to have to let them go and let them separated by

20     BSA or whatever, but the fate of the other men in Potocari."

21             Do you remember having said that?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.

23             JUDGE KWON:  He was referring to that fate.

24             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Could you continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 26843

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   What did you know then about the fate of the people at Potocari?

 4        A.   Well, I knew that the men were not allowed to go with their

 5     families, their mothers, wives, children, onto the buses to Kladanj.  I

 6     did not see any either.  I knew that they had to register in one house

 7     and I understood from Deputy Commander Robert Franken from UNPROFOR, on

 8     the 12th, that 35 men were being kept there.

 9             What I understood was the overall understanding of the national

10     staff that they were fearing to be killed.  And, therefore, I wanted to

11     keep them with me, in order to prevent that happening.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   When you speak about the fate of the people in Potocari, you are

16     not speaking about the 20-odd thousand who were evacuated to Kladanj.

17     You're not speaking about civilians but, rather, about the 35 who were

18     singled out as suspects or as fighters?

19        A.   I am not aware of this.

20        Q.   My question is:  Whether you meant the thousands of civilians and

21     their fate when you said the fate of the people in Potocari.

22             What you did mean at that moment; and what did you know about

23     their fate at the time?

24        A.   What I knew was the fate of the female and old and children

25     population who were being deported on the buses to Kladanj.  That is what

Page 26844

 1     I saw.

 2             I did not see any male person in that group.  I knew that 35 male

 3     were kept in that house and that others had [Realtime transcript read in

 4     error "as I said"] to register there.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. WEST:  Apologies, just a quick correction.  I think she just

 7     said "and others had to register there."  On line 11.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   When did you first learn about any killings?

11        A.   I learned about the killings only after I had left Srebrenica.

12        Q.   How did you learn about them?  In which way?

13        A.   I did hear that in -- in the media and from my organisation.

14        Q.   When?  Can you remember when it was?

15        A.   No, I cannot remember.  It was shortly after I had been back in

16     Germany.

17        Q.   Thank you.  While you were in the countries that made up former

18     Yugoslavia, even in Zagreb, on 22 July, you were still unaware of that,

19     weren't you?

20        A.   I was.

21        Q.   Ms. Schmitz, I'm asking you whether you were aware of the

22     killings on 12 July in Zagreb?  Did you have a debriefing then, or

23     possibly a press conference?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry, is it 12 July or 22nd July?

25             THE WITNESS:  22nd.

Page 26845

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But previously, Ms. Schmitz, you said:  "It was

 2     shortly after I had been back in Germany" that you became aware of that

 3     killing.  But is it consistent?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Shortly after 22nd July?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, whether it -- whether you were aware of the

 6     killing before you had gone back to Germany.

 7             THE WITNESS:  No, I was not aware of the -- I did not have any

 8     proof or information about the killings before arriving in Zagreb on

 9     22nd of July.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we see

13     65 ter 23109.  And it's page 6175.  It doesn't have to be broadcast if

14     what I read here is correct.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think they should be under seal.  And if we

16     are going to deal with a document that hasn't been dealt with by

17     Ms. West, we will add it to the -- to that bunch of documents.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Is this a cable that you sent on 12 July and which speaks about

20     the evacuation of the wounded and goes on to mention the 35 people who

21     were separated and kept in a room?

22             Is it also true that Mr. Franken, or somebody, informed you that

23     they were being treated well?  And this is -- this has to do with what

24     you were saying a minute ago; correct?

25        A.   Yes.  I have written this telex, and I had gotten the information

Page 26846

 1     from Commander Franken.  I had never been myself in that house.

 2             Your Honour, I am allowed to make an addition to -- to the whole

 3     topic of killings because I realise that I had not said something which I

 4     knew.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  By all means.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I would have to check in the document whether it is

 7     12th or 13th July.  I don't remember exactly that day, but there is a

 8     telex, and that I also clearly remember, I don't always, but this I

 9     clearly remember was the information from one of the UN soldiers that

10     behind one of the buildings there were dead bodies laying, and if I

11     wanted to have a look at them.  I was unsure if that was my task and I

12     was unsure if that was in this rather tense situation safe enough for me

13     to do.  So what I did is I asked one of the soldiers of the BSA if he

14     would guarantee my security and he denied that, so I did not go.

15             However, that is one moment where I hear about dead bodies.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Schmitz.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can this be tendered?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Is this not the document you dealt with --

19     this will be added.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 6177.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   What was the basis for your suspicion that people would be

23     killed?  When did you -- or when were you informed by DutchBat officers

24     that those people would not be killed, as we can see in your cable dated

25     13 July?

Page 26847

 1        A.   I'm sorry, may I repeat what I understand.  I understand the

 2     question as when was I was informed about the fact that Franken and

 3     Karremans were sure that nobody of the men would be killed?

 4        Q.   We are done with that topic.

 5             You said that you learned of the killings soon after your return

 6     to Germany, so let's leave it at that.

 7              But you said that at that time you were afraid for the persons

 8     from your organisation because they might be killed.  Why did you think

 9     that they might be killed, given the fact that the commanders of DutchBat

10     were -- told you that they would not be killed?

11        A.   Because I did trust my national staff more than the information

12     of UNPROFOR in that moment.  And my national staff was extremely worried

13     of getting killed, so I did take that concern very serious.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be added?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2211, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Why -- excuse me.

19             THE WITNESS:  Oh.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry.  This is part of 23109.  So that will be

21     added to the Prosecution Exhibit for --

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, may I add another information.  I'm

23     sorry, I'm a bit nervous.

24             But thinking about this whole theme again, there was one more

25     example which also remained very strong in my memory.  Again, which is

Page 26848

 1     not a proof but an impression.

 2             So on 13th of July, a young Muslim father with a one-year-old

 3     child on his arm came towards me being followed by an armed BSA soldier

 4     and I did not speak the language.  I was with one UN soldier outside at a

 5     place where we looked at possible patients, and what he and I understood

 6     was that the mother of the child was dead and that the father had nobody

 7     to give the child to, and so I agreed to take it and he was being led

 8     away by the soldier.  And I had a feeling I have to separate the child

 9     from the father.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that your understanding was based on the

12     interpretation of somebody who didn't speak Serbian well or, to be more

13     specific, who interpreted for you?

14        A.   One of the UN soldiers was with me and he understood little.  And

15     what he did is writing the name of the child on a paper, Irma, and so the

16     question is why did he give me his daughter.

17        Q.   Is it true that you later learned that the child was given back

18     to its mother -- to its mother because the mother wasn't dead after all?

19        A.   Yes, that is true.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the previous

22     page, 6176.

23        Q.   Please take a look at this.  This is also one of your cables;

24     correct?  We see your name at the bottom.

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 26849

 1        Q.   This was on the 12th at 9.10 p.m.

 2             [As read] [In English] "... part of the patients have gone to

 3     Bratunac with UN.  It's a total chaos and UN lets most of its MSF doing."

 4             [Interpretation] And a little further down you say:

 5             [As read] [In English] "Spoke also briefly with Mladic.  I

 6     requested him that I could pick up the sick.  He agreed."

 7             [Interpretation] At least twice you met Mladic, and he granted

 8     all your requests; correct?

 9        A.   I met Ratko Mladic twice on the 12th of July.  And on the first

10     kind of meeting, that was when I requested that the evacuation of the

11     patients under our care would not be done by BSA towards Bratunac.  He

12     did not grant that me, but he told me to do my job and went away.

13        Q.   Is it correct that you didn't see any bodies or any killings but

14     you did hear sporadic shooting from small weapons?  That is, automatic

15     rifles.

16        A.   I did hear on two -- very clearly on two occasions single shots

17     and that was around the house where the men were supposed to be kept.

18     And on the 13th, late in the evening when it was dark and we had some

19     dinner outside, in the forest, I heard a number of single shots.

20        Q.   Did you notice and mention in your cables, or, indeed, your

21     statements, that the Serbian soldiers were celebrating their victory and

22     sowing their wild oats?

23        A.   I'm sorry, the last part of the sentence I did not understand at

24     all.

25        Q.   Did you notice that the Serbian soldiers were celebrating their

Page 26850

 1     victory and partying and feeling like winners?

 2        A.   That was my impression.

 3        Q.   Please take a look at this telegram.  And here you're saying that

 4     the Serbian soldiers were firing shots in the air.  Were you familiar

 5     with those -- this kind of behaviour in the Balkans, that people fire

 6     shots in the air when they celebrate?

 7        A.   No, I was not.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I wonder why this information about firing shots in

 9     the air cannot be found in your statements, although you were aware of

10     that fact at the time, that they were shooting in the air.

11        A.   What would be the question?

12        Q.   Why can we not find that in the statements, in your statements,

13     although we can see it in this cable?

14        A.   I'm not able to answer this question.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, we will take a

17     break now for half an hour.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document also be added?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be also added to the Prosecution

20     exhibit.  We admit it as part of associated exhibits.

21             We'll resume at 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 26851

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is it true, Ms. Schmitz, that you proposed yourself that the

 3     group be reduced to two and that the two of you travelled without any

 4     problem?

 5        A.   It was not myself being present in negotiations before the

 6     24th of June about our journey to Srebrenica, but it was -- it were the

 7     colleagues from Paris and Brussels who discussed it.  I cannot confirm

 8     that we proposed it, or it was asked.

 9             We did travel without problems, yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that, among other things, you took upon

11     yourself security issues as well and that you attended daily meetings on

12     security?

13        A.   It's true that I attended daily security meetings at 10.00 a.m.

14     with, among others, the UN.

15             The first part of the question, please define more clearly what

16     you mean.

17        Q.   You described somewhere - and I can find it - your own tasks and

18     competencies as communication with local authorities and personnel and,

19     among other things, security issues; correct?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I also remember where I wrote that, and

21     I'm also -- it is true that this was one of my main tasks.  So when I

22     arrived, my priority was to check that everything was in order, like the

23     bunker; like, for example, that I knew how it dismantle the radio and

24     bring it down to the bunker and fix it there again.  That is true.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us briefly what did those daily

Page 26852

 1     security meetings look like?  Who attended and what was discussed?

 2        A.   We were meeting in the PTT building at 10.00 a.m. every morning.

 3     Present was usually the local representative of ICRC, the local

 4     representative of UNHCR, one UNMO, United Nations Military Observer, and

 5     somebody from the UN, and, of course, myself.  And then the UN -- the

 6     UNPROFOR member informed about what had happened the day before, and

 7     after that, we -- whatever questions came up could be discussed.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And you said, didn't you, that in the early days,

 9     when you arrived, the situation was relative quiet?

10        A.   In terms of security, the situation was relatively quiet.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You took over from the Red Cross the assessment that

12     there were about 40.000 population.  How old was that ICRC assessment?

13        A.   I do not remember.

14        Q.   Thank you for that.  Did you receive information whether the

15     population was rising or decreasing with time?  In other words, did

16     people wish to leave and did they, indeed, leave using UNHCR vehicles?

17        A.   I did not receive any information between my arrival on

18     24th of June until 6th of July, that the population figures were rising

19     or decreasing.  That was a short period of 12 days.

20             The second part of your question:  Did people leave with UNHCR

21     vehicles?  Did I understand that right?

22        Q.   Yes.  Was there any evacuation even before the fall of the

23     enclave, and even if you didn't see it yourself, did you receive

24     information that people were willing to leave, and the Serb army was

25     frequently allowing people to leave on UNHCR trucks.

Page 26853

 1        A.   I do not remember if people left.  If people left on UNHCR

 2     trucks, for what reason, I do not remember.  If it did happen, then

 3     before my time.

 4        Q.   You confirmed, didn't you, that the hospital in Potocari was

 5     well-equipped?

 6        A.   I don't understand the question.  Is the question that I

 7     confirmed that the hospital is well equipped?  Then that is based on my

 8     usual experience in projects.  That is not said that the hospital was

 9     well equipped compared with a hospital in Berlin, but, rather, compared

10     with a hospital in other locations, like, for example, I worked in

11     Chechnya before or in Somaliland.

12             So I don't know to which document you are referring and to which

13     equipment.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you give an interview to the French Parliamentary

15     Commission on 29 March 2001?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   Thank you.  On page 3 of that interview, you said there had been

18     two medical teams and a well-equipped hospital in Potocari?

19        A.   Oh, okay.  Now the well-equipped hospital I was referring there

20     was the one of UNPROFOR, and the two medical teams were present in the

21     enclave from the 5th of July on, because there was -- the old medical

22     team was supposed to replaced by the new one.  The new one arrived on 5th

23     of July.  The old one could only leave on 14th of July, due to the

24     events.  So that was the reason why there were two medical teams of

25     UNPROFOR in the enclave.

Page 26854

 1        Q.   And that comparison from earlier with Berlin related to the

 2     civilian hospital in Srebrenica.  You didn't mean the UN hospital.  You

 3     meant the civilian hospital.

 4        A.   Yes.  I -- when you were asking that, I didn't know exactly to

 5     what document and telex and saying of myself you were referring, because

 6     I as myself did not remember that the hospital in Srebrenica was well

 7     equipped.  Now I realise that you -- you meant the one in UNPROFOR.  So

 8     the hospital in Srebrenica, as I said earlier, was equipped, but

 9     certainly not as well as a hospital in Berlin but more -- if I compare it

10     with other locations where I have been working in war situations.

11        Q.   My mistake.  When I was saying the hospital in Potocari, I

12     thought we understood it was the UN hospital.

13        A.   The hospital in Potocari was the UN hospital.  The hospital in

14     Srebrenica was the one of Ministry of Health where we were supporting.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Is this one of your first -- no, it's not one of the

16     first, but it's dated 1st July, 1995, this telegram.

17        A.   Well, I have here the sitrep of the period 24th of June until

18     30th of June.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And first you speak about security.  And you say on

20     the 24th of June, Srebrenica was attacked by paramilitaries who had

21     entered through an old tunnel; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In view of the fact that you attended morning

24     briefings on security, was the offensive of Muslim forces from Srebrenica

25     targeting surrounding Serb areas ever mentioned there?

Page 26855

 1        A.   I would have to go in -- back into the documents.  I do not

 2     remember.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You said here -- I'll read it:

 4             [In English] "... in general, according to the figures and

 5     opinion of DutchBat, number of shooting in the enclave and also outside

 6     increases.  However, number of armed B and H in the streets is

 7     decreasing."

 8             [Interpretation] Did you receive any explanation where those

 9     soldiers from the streets were whose number was dropping?

10        A.   No, I did not.  We did not move much.  So personally I do not

11     remember seeing any soldiers in the streets of Srebrenica at the times

12     when we were walking through the streets, which was not often.

13        Q.   Is this your telegram?

14        A.   This is my telegram.  However, what I usually did after the

15     security meetings is that I copied -- the information I had gotten from

16     the UN I copied into the telexes or sitreps in order to send to Belgrade.

17             And so in this one, again, in -- it does say, "according to the

18     figures an opinion of DutchBat," so I'm copying what DutchBat says, but

19     that does not reveal my opinion or my observations.

20        Q.   Thank you.  However, it seems that the next thing that comes up,

21     population condition, is your observation.  The usual busy street life,

22     wood cutting everywhere, many children outside.  I'll read in read

23     English now.

24             [As read] [In English] "... appear on the first sight well fed

25     and healthy.  Also the crowds in front of the ambulantas.  Market prices

Page 26856

 1     not changed, however, less activities due to the fear of the people."

 2             [Interpretation] So your first insight is there are many children

 3     in the street and those children appear well fed and healthy; right?

 4        A.   Yeah, that is true.  Of course, I do -- I did compare with my

 5     experience in other places.  Srebrenica was my seventh mission and I had

 6     been working mostly in Africa, where, for example, in Liberia I had

 7     worked in a famine, where on first sight one can see acute malnourished

 8     children.  So with that experience I looked in Srebrenica and I didn't

 9     see that.  So when I look in a project at children, at signs of

10     malnutrition, I see acute malnutrition immediately, but it is difficult

11     for me, due to lack of experience, to see the chronic malnutrition, which

12     is stunting.  So if I say that, yes, this is what I observed myself in

13     the first day, then it means I didn't see any acute malnutrition, which

14     is a usual sight in projects of my institution.

15        Q.   A bit further down you say that you had a long meeting with the

16     opstina, the municipality.  And you discussed the hot topics.

17             Could you tell us, what were those hot topics you had to raise

18     with the authorities?

19        A.   Well, it's singular, the hot topic, and it was the topic of

20     Mohammed and Meho coming back to work and ending their suspension.

21     Respectively, national staff of my institution having to leave their

22     positions in order to make space for others.  That was the hot topic.

23     And given that we were only two, Daniel and myself, and there was no

24     international logistician, and given that I was not a logistician but a

25     nurse in the field, co-ordinator, I definitely needed the national

Page 26857

 1     experienced staff to have the mission ongoing.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know about the smuggling, the crime, the

 3     smuggling of humanitarian aide and medicines, and did you raise such

 4     issues with the municipality?

 5        A.   I did not raise any issues with the municipality.  I was informed

 6     that one examination table had been brought to Zepa.  Otherwise,

 7     smuggling and crime, you would have to define more.  What do you mean?

 8        Q.   Well, if you didn't discuss it, it's not necessary.  But did you

 9     receive information that the town was largely controlled or, if not

10     controlled, largely influenced by a group of criminals?  They were

11     smuggling and manipulating with humanitarian aide, smuggling and black

12     marketeering food and medicines.

13             Did anyone inform you about the situation in Srebrenica?

14        A.   I was not aware of what you are saying now.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see a bit further down.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You say the convoy entered on the 27th of June.

19             Did you know that, at the time, Muslim forces had long been

20     attacking Serbian villages to facilitate the position of the Muslim army

21     in Sarajevo, and, in the meantime, convoys were still arriving?

22        A.   I did not know.

23        Q.   All right.  Still further down, look at the subheading

24     "Pharmacy/Drugs":

25             [In English] "Certainly a good number of drugs have runned out,

Page 26858

 1     but no emergency/case needs to be refused."

 2             [Interpretation] Is that also consistent with the situation you

 3     noticed and reported?

 4        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.  Please repeat.  That

 5     is what I observed, i.e., during that 12 days before the bombing started.

 6     However, I did not have the time to -- to sit myself in the pharmacy and

 7     look -- and have a closer look towards stocks and amounts and drugs which

 8     needed to be ordered, and so on.  But that was what I reported.  That was

 9     what I observed.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm told -- no, I have ... we have a

13     second page, yes.  I see it.  Ending with 7329.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We just need it in e-court.  7329.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Are we looking at 65 ter 23134?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The Registrar was ... yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand what the problem is.

21             65 ter 23134.  It's a situation report.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And it has two pages, not one.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  There seems to be a problem with the Registry's

25     computer.  Could you move onto another topic in the meantime.

Page 26859

 1             Ms. West, this document hasn't been admitted as an associated

 2     exhibit, has it?

 3             MS. WEST:  It has not.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll admit it as Defence exhibit.  We give the

 5     number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2211, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, do you have two pages?

 8             MS. WEST: [Microphone not activated] I do.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very strange.

10             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  If there's time we'll

12     come back to see the second page.

13             Could we now see from this document, from this collection 23109,

14     page 6137.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you recall this telegram?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In your efforts to preserve your objectivity, you also wonder

19     about the mandate of the UNPROFOR and UN CIVPOL; right?

20        A.   Well, I had wanted a clear definition once more from the team in

21     Belgrade -- yeah.

22        Q.   Could you help us with the date?  I can't see it.

23        A.   Then I will have to look it up.  Well, I will have to look it up

24     in my papers as well because I don't see the date here either.

25        Q.   The previous one was 5 July.  This must be the 6th.

Page 26860

 1             Towards the bottom, we see the date.  It's still 5th July.  It's

 2     the 5th.

 3        A.   It's the second page --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, second page of the previous page, yes.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It is dated 5th July, sent at 1612 --

 7             THE WITNESS:  24.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  -- 24

 9             Why don't we show him the previous page.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Yes, that's correct.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   So you say that this mission is a Pandora's Box; right?

13        A.   Yeah, I did say that.  Because we did have -- we were only

14     allowed a two-hour hand-over.  Normally, if I take over from somebody,

15     then I have one, two, three, four days.  So on 24th of June, I had

16     two hours with my predecessor and then they left.  So I did have to

17     discover a lot by myself, and that is why I wrote that it was a

18     Pandora Box.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And you got an estimate from Andre that the Serbian

20     army would want to narrow down the enclave; right?

21        A.   Are -- are you referring to the same telex?  And are you

22     referring to Andre of UNHCR on the 27th of June?

23        Q.   Here we read under "security" your words, that -- that there are

24     rumours -- "rumour of today," it says.

25             Have you found it?

Page 26861

 1        A.   Yeah, I'm sorry.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3        A.   Again, that is information from the security meeting.  Now, I

 4     don't remember if I have written "Andre" here as a name, if I would -- it

 5     cannot be Andre of UNHCR whom I only met 26th -- 27th of June.  I believe

 6     it's one of the -- it's the Dutch UNMO.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Toward the bottom of the page, under "For Graci and

 8     Barbara," you say that there were occasionally ambushes on the road to

 9     Zepa and that there were mines:

10             [In English] "... but I am not seeing any casualties."

11             [Interpretation] "I have not seen any casualties," you say.  Is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Yeah, I do see the line you mean.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's go to the next page, please.

16     The one we saw earlier.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Here you're asking logical questions that we were asking

19     ourselves constantly.  What is the difference between the mandates of

20     UNPROFOR, UNMO, and UN CIVPOL?  Did you ever get feedback on that

21     question?

22        A.   I would not remember exactly.  Since I usually got feedback from

23     the team in Belgrade, I assume so.  But since I don't have the telexes

24     incoming anymore, I cannot confirm 100 per cent if all questions were

25     answered.

Page 26862

 1             Plus, if I may say that, that was a telex on the 5th of July.

 2     The bombing started early 6th of July, and I believe we then had

 3     different topics to look at.

 4             So it is possible that I did not get feedback towards this telex,

 5     but, again, like I say, I do not remember 100 per cent.

 6        Q.   Here we can see that you notice a certain confusion, not to say

 7     chaos.  You were visited by one medical team, then another.  And towards

 8     the end of this paragraph, you say:

 9             "What is the principle of MSF, CC blue helmets working in our

10     programme, transporting them with their weapons in our car?  How much

11     does this affect our neutrality?"

12             And the last sentence:

13             [In English] "This all reminds me a lot of the Rwanda story."

14             [Interpretation] What did you mean by this last sentence in this

15     paragraph?

16        A.   Well, in principle, we keep our neutrality, and by keeping away,

17     we wish to not create the impression that we are working together with

18     any party.  In Rwanda, there were examples of military and MSF working

19     together.  But given that it's that long ago, I do not -- am not able to

20     recall exactly anymore.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Upon second thought, Ms. West, I think it is more

25     appropriate to admit documents that were dealt with during

Page 26863

 1     cross-examination as separate Defence exhibits, among the -- among

 2     documents among this batch, i.e., 23109.  We'll give them a separate

 3     Defence exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2212, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Karadzic, I was informed that the second page has been

 7     uploaded in the e-court, if you so wish.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Just briefly to finish.

 9     7329, please.  The next one, yes.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now, can we assume that it is correct to say that you were very

12     careful with regard to the quality of vaccines, and do you know that

13     after the war there was a disaster with vaccines?  Some children were

14     injured and suffered permanent consequences.

15        A.   I'm not aware of what happened with children after the war due to

16     vaccinations.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You say here that:

18             "No major changes in morbidity and mortality were observed."

19             Is that correct?

20        A.   That's what I have written.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You also say that the previous team - Catherine,

22     Edwin, and Igor - were able to leave Srebrenica, whereas you entered on

23     the same day without any problem on the way; correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's written.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You go on to say:

Page 26864

 1             [In English] "We both feel very well here and the difficulties

 2     due to the short hand-over are being covered by the very good local

 3     staff, the good co-operation of most of the local medical staff, and

 4     last, but not least, the extensive support from Belgrade and Pale."

 5             [Interpretation] What did you mean by this?

 6        A.   I -- I don't really understand your question because I think it

 7     is self-explaining.  The extensive support from my organisation, the head

 8     of mission, the medical co-ordinator, the logistical co-ordinator in

 9     Belgrade and the international staff in Pale were supporting us very

10     well.  So listening to every question, being always available if I needed

11     to talk, trying to do their best to send staffing.  So to me that is

12     self-understanding, so I don't really understand the question, where do

13     you -- where for you it's not clear.

14        Q.   Let me ask you:  If you -- or when you had a problem, who did you

15     call at Pale from the Serbian government structures?  Who was your

16     contact person who solved your problems at rather short notice?  Or let

17     me help you.  Could it have been Professor Koljevic?  Do you remember

18     that name?

19        A.   Yeah, I very well remember the name of Professor Koljevic.

20     However, in terms of hierarchy it was the team in Belgrade I was

21     reporting to.  It was not supposed to be that I would contact anybody in

22     Pale direct.  So if my organisation thought that there's a need to speak

23     to Professor Koljevic, then it would be Stephan, my head of mission in

24     Belgrade.  And as you have seen in the documents, he once in a while had

25     contact with Professor Koljevic.  But personally I had no contact, and I

Page 26865

 1     was not supposed to have.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  So by "Pale," you meant your

 3     organisation which is located in Pale?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Since this is already

 6     an exhibit, could we now please 1D5483.

 7        Q.   While we're waiting, let me ask you about your experience with

 8     Professor Koljevic.  Or, rather, your information about the experience

 9     with Professor Koljevic was that he was full of understanding for your

10     work and forthcoming.

11             THE ACCUSED:  I'm not sure whether this "forthcoming" belongs to

12     my question.  [Interpretation] If it means as much as "helpful," then

13     it's all right.

14             THE WITNESS:  Would you kindly repeat your question?

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   According to what you knew, so according to the feedback that you

17     had, when you informed the Belgrade centre about your problems and they

18     would forward that to Professor Koljevic, what information did you have

19     about that?  Was Professor Koljevic full of understanding and willing to

20     help you?

21        A.   Well, given that I had no direct contact and given that if there

22     was an issue -- so, for example, one big problem was that we, especially

23     in the days between 6th and 11th, we had no international surgeon and

24     were lacking manpower in the operational theatre, then I addressed that

25     problem to Stephan and he did address -- he did address whatever problem

Page 26866

 1     he considered important with Professor Koljevic.  So what I can tell you

 2     as what is written in my -- what is written in the telexes he responded,

 3     but I did not create an own opinion about how helpful Professor Koljevic

 4     was.

 5             So further, more -- more than what we have here in the telexes

 6     from Stephan, I can't answer, or I didn't judge is that helpful or is

 7     that not helpful.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Item 4 has to do with the professor.  Let us scroll

 9     down, and please read item 4 and tell us whether what is said there is

10     about Professor Koljevic and Pale in that respect.

11        A.   I am sorry.  Are you asking me to read this paragraph?

12        Q.   No, just read it to yourself and tell us whether it's about the

13     co-operation with Professor Koljevic.

14             "Telephone contact with prof."

15             Did you call him prof, professor?

16        A.   So, yes, this is about the telephone contact Stephan had with

17     Professor Koljevic.

18        Q.   And Professor Koljevic told you that things were accelerating,

19     some in a good direction, some in a bad direction; correct?

20        A.   Yeah, I'm reading that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  So you know that Stephan had contacts with the

22     professor also on your behalf; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 26867

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2213, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we take a brief look at 6139.

 3     But let's first see 6138.  And then 6139.

 4             No, no.  I mean 6139 in document 23109.  65 ter 23109.  And then

 5     ERN 6138, the last four digits.

 6             Yes, this is it.  Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   This is also one of your telegrams dated 6th July; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  It says here that -- it says the following:

11             Since 45 minutes heavy shelling of the surrounding of the town,

12     not the town itself.

13             Correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be added to Exhibit D2212.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Now let us briefly see 6139.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Here you say that your local logisticians were not allowed to

21     stay in your compound anymore.  Is this about those two who were

22     forbidden to stay there by the Muslim authorities of Srebrenica?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

Page 26868

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be also added to D2212.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I would like to see

 3     65 ter 23125.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you remember this telegram that was sent to you, I think, on

 6     10 July 1995?  And can you tell us who is writing to you here?

 7        A.   Stephan Oberreit was the head of mission in Belgrade and he is

 8     writing to Daniel and me.

 9        Q.   Please tell us the following:  Paris contacted him, and then

10     there's some special envoy, and there's information that he had been in

11     contact with a DutchBat colonel who had said that there had been some

12     fighting between the UN and the BSA in the southern part of the enclave.

13     It goes on.  But you can read it anyway.

14             And it says:

15             "I just talk with the prof and asked him to inform BSA that you

16     were in the hospital with civilian population and to make sure no

17     fighting would take place there.  [In English] He asked me to call him

18     back in ten minutes and will see what he can do to ensure your security.

19             "I believe you are in the safest place and that you and the

20     population around you have guarantee of security."

21             [Interpretation] Do you remember that you wrote -- or, rather,

22     you were saying in your statements that the hospital, too, had become a

23     target but that the shells fell around it but not on the hospital?

24        A.   Yes, I -- I -- on that same day, the 10th of July, a shell fell

25     opposite the hospital.  There was no shell, according to my knowledge and

Page 26869

 1     during my presence, on the hospital.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  If I put to you, Ms. Schmitz, that a T-84 tank, which

 3     was one of the best tanks in the world at the time, was within range of

 4     the hospital and it had very precise targeting equipment, would you agree

 5     that the Serbian army did not want to hit the hospital, rather than it

 6     not being able to target it?

 7             MS. WEST:  Objection, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  How would the witness be able to answer that

 9     question?

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Ms. Schmitz, you have said that your impression was that the

12     hospital had become a target.  I'm asking you now if you believe that the

13     Serbs could not hit it or would not hit it.

14             Is it a mere impression --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, where at all did Ms. Schmitz say that

16     the hospital became a target?  In her statement, I note that she said:

17             "It appeared to me that BSA were deliberately targeting the

18     area."

19             So not the hospital itself.

20             Do you confirm that, Ms. Schmitz?

21             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, maybe I mixed it up with the

23     road.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Although you also said about the road that there were shots along

Page 26870

 1     the road and not at the road itself and that there was barrage fire.  Is

 2     that the information you have?

 3        A.   I do not know the word "barrage fire."

 4             When the people were leaving on 11th of July to Potocari and we

 5     were following by car, I had the impression that shells fell -- or

 6     exploded close to the road in order to keep the people on the road so

 7     that nobody could escape from that road.  I still don't know what is

 8     barrage fire.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That is sufficient, Ms. Schmitz.

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now I would like to know more about a position of yours.  You

14     spoke about it to the French parliament when you were questioned about a

15     possible failure of the international community, and so on, to protect

16     the protected area.

17             Were you familiar with the legal definition of the protected

18     area?  What exactly should have been the protected area?

19        A.   Today I would not be able to remember the exact legal definition

20     of the area.  However, my understanding remains until today that the

21     enclave was supposed to be protected.  The enclave and the population.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that a condition for that was that there

23     should be only population but no military structures, no military

24     infrastructure, no weapons, no military intelligence?  It should have

25     been an entirely and purely civilian zone?

Page 26871

 1        A.   I did [Realtime transcript read in error "didn't"] know that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  How did you understand the role of the UN; that is,

 3     UNPROFOR?  What were they supposed to protect?

 4             Speaking in Paris, you said that UNPROFOR was not successful in

 5     protecting the enclave from the Serbian army; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Was your understanding that UNPROFOR was there to

 8     protect the enclave from the Serbian army and fight the Serbs?

 9        A.   I do not exactly know the definition in the mandate about, what

10     you call it, fighting the Serbs.  I understand protection of the

11     population.  The definition of fighting the Serbs, I'm not aware if that

12     was in the mandate.

13             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I'm sorry to interrupt but if we look

14     at page 58, lines 19 and 20, the question was:

15             "It should have been an entirely, purely civilian zone."

16             At 21, we have:

17             "I didn't know that."

18             I understood the witness to say, "I did know that," but maybe

19     that could be asked again.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Well, you must be able to see that lines which is

21     moving, scrolling up.  But ... do you confirm that?

22             THE WITNESS:  I did know that it should be -- I did know that it

23     should be demilitarised.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

Page 26872

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   If I told you that UNPROFOR's role wasn't to fight against the

 4     Serbs but to secure the enclaves and the civilians in the enclave, is

 5     this something that is familiar and understandable to you?

 6             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, there are a few questions about

 7     UNPROFOR and the mandate and I'm not sure that this is the correct

 8     witness for these types of questions, particularly where we have had

 9     several UNPROFOR witnesses who have testified here.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I was just being guided

13     by what Ms. Schmitz said in front of the French parliament.  She said

14     that UNPROFOR wasn't able to provide protection, and I wanted to know to

15     what extent we all shared the opinion that UNPROFOR was to protect the

16     enclave.  My thesis is that they should prevent the enclave from being a

17     military stronghold.

18             JUDGE KWON:  You asked the question, and heard an answer from --

19     from her.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   According to the information you had, was there any contact in

23     Srebrenica itself between the civilians and the Serbian army?  Or,

24     rather, did you say that the civilians left and went to Potocari?

25        A.   Are you asking if there was contact between civilian population

Page 26873

 1     and the BSA?  In which period?

 2        Q.   You said, did you not, that the Serbian army started entering the

 3     town, not before 3.00 in the afternoon, and the town was already empty.

 4     Its inhabitants had left.

 5             So my question is:  Did the Serbian army enter an abandoned

 6     Srebrenica?

 7        A.   I don't know, because I don't know if all -- all population had

 8     left to Potocari, or any other place, before the Bosnian Serb army

 9     entered.  I would not be able to know if there were people still in their

10     houses.

11             It appeared to me at 3.00 in the afternoon on 11th of July that

12     people had left towards Potocari, and that was, for us, the indication

13     that we should leave as well, because we had nobody to take care for

14     anymore.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             With your leave I would like to read out something on page 5.  It

17     was your response to the French parliament.  I believe it is page 5:

18             [In English] "The mayor of Srebrenica came to the bunker to

19     inform us that the Bosnian Serb Army had began to enter the town, and it

20     was not until 1500 hours in the afternoon that we begin to see the first

21     air-strikes and the first aircrafts.  The town was already emptied of its

22     inhabitants, and the Bosnian Serb Army had advanced noticeably into the

23     town centre."

24             [Interpretation] So did you know that the civilian population had

25     moved to Potocari?

Page 26874

 1        A.   Yes, I did know that the civilian population had left to

 2     Potocari.  Therefore, we also left.  But I did not check for myself if in

 3     the houses some people who were not able to walk, or whatever, were left

 4     behind.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   What would you say about the tendencies and desires of the

 9     population?  On the basis of your experience, would you say that they

10     wanted to move some other area?

11        A.   I had the impression that they felt forced to leave to another

12     area, in this case Potocari, because they were not able anymore to stay

13     in Srebrenica due to the advance of BSA.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And even earlier, from the 24th of June when you

15     arrived there, did you know that they had requested and attempted to move

16     to other areas, many of those who were not originally from Srebrenica?

17        A.   I only had heard a rumour, and I even don't know if I noted it

18     down in the telexes, that in May a part of the population had requested

19     to leave and that they were not able to leave.  I don't know more than

20     that.  And, again, I wish to remind, that I had been 12 days in

21     Srebrenica, from 21st June until 6th of July, where my movements were

22     quite limited.  So I didn't have much contact with the population, mainly

23     with the national staff.  And I do not recall any discussion about the

24     wishes of the people that they wanted to leave the enclave.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Something wasn't perhaps repeated later.  I'd like to

Page 26875

 1     deal with that.  In Paris, you said the following.  I will read it out in

 2     English:

 3             [In English] "We were then informed that Mladic would begin

 4     deporting the population to Tuzla and evacuating the injured to the

 5     football stadium in Bratunac."

 6             [Interpretation] Were the injured evacuated to the football

 7     stadium or to the hospital in Bratunac?

 8        A.   The -- about which injured are you speaking?  He -- on

 9     12th of July, I understood that the injured who were still under our care

10     were supposed to be evacuated, but I went to see him and rejected that

11     proposal and they stayed with us.

12             Unless you are referring to the injured from 12 July in the

13     evening, where UN evacuated a part of them.

14        Q.   I'm referring to them.  We'll find that part.

15             Did the UN evacuate about 55 or 59 injured and sick people?  And

16     where did they take them to, to the stadium or to the hospital?

17        A.   The figure of 59 is known to me as 55 patients and four escorts

18     who were still with us on the 17th of July and who have gone with ICRC to

19     Tuzla.

20             On the 12th of July in the evening, there was a medical

21     evacuation done by -- well, organised by my colleague Daniel and the UN,

22     and there have been different versions about what had happened.

23     33 patients had been evacuated but there were different versions about

24     which locations they reached, how many had been brought back, how many

25     were in Bratunac, in the hospital.  So I wouldn't be able today to say

Page 26876

 1     the truth because I don't know the truth about this part of the medical

 2     evacuation on the 12th of July.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D5482.  If there's

 5     something we haven't tendered, we are tendering it.  The document of the

 6     10th of July, has it been admitted?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we admit it, 23125, as next Defence exhibit?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2214, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 8 of 1D5482.

10     It's page 8 in the English version.

11             We have the French version and the English version.  It should be

12     page 8 in the English version.  Perhaps it's page 8 in the e-court

13     system.  Perhaps there's a difference in the pagination.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Very well.  We'll have to leave that.  We can't find the relevant

16     parts.

17             So you weren't aware of the fact that they were taken to the

18     stadium.  If I told you that they were taken to the hospital in Bratunac,

19     to the health clinic, would you find this acceptable?

20        A.   I don't know how to answer that question.  If you tell me they

21     have been brought there, I wasn't there to see for myself, so I -- I

22     don't know.

23        Q.   Very well.  But you don't know that they were taken to the

24     stadium either; isn't that correct?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 26877

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that, in your assessment, at 7.00 p.m.,

 2     on the 11th of July, there were about 20.000 people, 20.000 civilians, in

 3     Potocari?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know, did someone tell you, that between

 6     13- to 15.000 were breaking through the forests in the direction of

 7     Tuzla?

 8        A.   I did not -- I don't know when I heard that, but I did not hear

 9     it immediately.  Because what happened is that I was missing the national

10     doctors on either 11th in the evening or 12th in the morning, and then I

11     understood that a part of the population had left on a different way than

12     to Potocari.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, were you aware of the meetings that UNPROFOR had

14     with General Mladic?  On the 11th of July in the evening, there were two

15     such meetings.  And do you know who requested that the population be

16     evacuated?

17             MS. WEST:  Objection.  This is so far afield of this woman's

18     competence.  Again, particularly since there have been several people who

19     testified about this issue.  She wasn't at the meetings, and so far we

20     see that she didn't even know about this other group of people leaving.

21     I don't think she has the competence to answer this.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I agree, Ms. West.

23             There may be more appropriate questions for you.  Otherwise,

24     please wrap up your cross-examination.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I think that

Page 26878

 1     everything that the Prosecution puts in an amalgamated statement or in an

 2     some exhibit, 92 ter exhibit, is something that I can cross-examine

 3     about.  This honourable witness referred to the evacuation or deportation

 4     on a number of occasions, and Mladic requested fuel.  She said that it

 5     was all well organised --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not -- you're making a statement.  Since

 7     she referred to deportation -- Ms. Schmitz, do you, by any chance, know

 8     who requested that the population be evacuated?

 9             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry ...

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic referred to a meeting where -- UNPROFOR

11     had with General Mladic.  Now do you understand the question?

12             THE WITNESS:  I'm not -- these meetings -- I heard sometime much

13     later about Hotel Fontana.  I don't know anything at all during the time

14     I was in Potocari.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Perfect.  That's a good answer for you.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

17             How much more would you need to conclude your cross-examination,

18     Mr. Karadzic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellency, at least an

20     hour.  There are a lot of telegrams and facts referred to in the

21     statements and the amalgamated statements, so I have to try and clarify

22     all these items, shed light on all these items in the course of my

23     cross-examination.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You will have 15 minutes to conclude.  But, by the

25     way, for the -- do you have any re-examination, Ms. West?

Page 26879

 1             MS. WEST:  I expect I will.  Probably at least 15 minutes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So the Chamber is minded to adjourn for the break

 3     at -- in five minutes for some other matters.

 4             Yes, we'll have a break in five minutes.  Please continue,

 5     Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I inform you that I might be

 7     able to save time with the next witness and perhaps I could be allocated

 8     that time so that I could use it for this witness.  Please take that into

 9     consideration.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So you found out that Mladic was requesting fuel.  And when you

12     said that all this seemed well organised to you, well, there's something

13     I would like to clarify.  I'd like to make a distinction between two

14     things.

15             When you said "well organised," did you mean that these things

16     had been planned in advance?

17        A.   Well, when I was writing about it appeared as if all was well

18     organised and I was especially writing about the fact that very quickly a

19     number of buses and trucks came into Potocari, I know that I noted

20     somewhere the figure of 70, and therefore it appeared to me that it was

21     well organised.

22             Now I lost a part of your question, I apologise.  And, therefore,

23     I had the impression that it was planned before, but, of course, I'm not

24     able to prove that.

25        Q.   Would it have been better if everything had proceeded in a

Page 26880

 1     disorderly and chaotic manner, if it hadn't been well organised?

 2        A.   Again, that question is difficult for me to answer, what is the

 3     criteria for having a well-organised or less well-organised deportation,

 4     because I have not seen that before.  So difficult for me to answer this

 5     question.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'll put the question differently.

 7             Is it understandable for an army to do everything that it does in

 8     an efficient and organised manner?  And does this imply that the action

 9     it takes was previously organised and planned?  Or does it not

10     necessarily mean that preparations had previously been made?

11        A.   Well, please give me a minute so can I read it.  Maybe then I

12     understand better.

13        Q.   If my knowledge of English is good -- [In English] or does it not

14     necessarily mean that preparations had been previously made.

15             [Interpretation] Does it not mean that preparations had been

16     previously made.

17             What I wanted to say is:  When we say "organised," does this mean

18     things are being done as they should be done, in an organised manner?

19     And is it essential in such cases to have previously planned for the

20     action to be taken, or is this not, in fact, necessary?

21        A.   Well, this is a matter of opinion.  It appeared to me, because it

22     was so well organised, and the figure of 70 transport possibilities

23     seemed -- seems high to me.  So my impression was that it looked planned

24     and organised before.  But I cannot prove it.  It's an impression.  And

25     there's nothing more that I can say towards that question.  I'm not aware

Page 26881

 1     about the organisation within the BSA or any other army.

 2             So, in principle, it appeared to me as if it was well planned and

 3     organised before, but I don't know.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Schmitz.  I just wanted to clarify this before the

 5     break.  I wanted to see whether something could be organised without

 6     things having previously been planned well in advance.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure it's for the witness to answer that

 8     general question.

 9             We'll have a break for an hour, and resume at 1.30.

10                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please conclude in 15 minutes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I will

14     try.  But I hope that I won't see in the Judgement the things that I did

15     not have time to challenge.

16             Could we see 65 ter 23109.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Page.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 6168.  34 in this -- that's good.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you remember this telegram of yours?  Was it 11 July at 2252?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You say here that you just had a meeting with

23     Commander Franken.  The contact is good, et cetera.  And then you say:

24             "UNPROFOR is arranging with BSA that the trip into town can be

25     done together with me.  Objective:  Taking the medical stock [In English]

Page 26882

 1     Checking for the 97 patients of the social centre and picking up more

 2     people who couldn't leave today.  Commander Mladic, BSA, is in Bratunac

 3     and offering medicine and food.  Asks UN to organise buses for

 4     evacuation."

 5             [Interpretation] Was this the first time you were reporting about

 6     what Mladic was asking?

 7        A.   Yes, I believe so.

 8        Q.   Did you know that by this time there had been already two

 9     meetings between UNPROFOR and General Mladic?

10        A.   I answered this question before.  I did not know about these two

11     meetings.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be added to D2212.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 6170.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You say that the local staff is difficult to motivate since the

18     parents and relatives are still outside.  You talk about the

19     temperatures, and then CC your telex from yesterday:

20             "Compound -- Dutch compound not targeted from inside but around.

21     Seems that BSA wants to keep UN inside.  [In English] Population outside

22     in a very vulnerable position but again no known casualties yet."

23             [Interpretation] Right?

24        A.   That is what the telex says, yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this.

Page 26883

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Was it discussed with you, Ms. West?  Otherwise,

 2     we'll add it to --

 3             MS. WEST:  No.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  -- Exhibit D2212.

 5             In the meantime, Ms. West, I wanted to note that the earlier

 6     ruling this morning that denied the admission of telexes collected in

 7     65 ter 23109, this one, relates only to those telexes tendered en masse,

 8     so to speak, in paragraphs 24 and 25 of the witness's statement.

 9             Therefore, a number of telexes from that 65 ter number, 23109,

10     which were discussed elsewhere in the witness's statement have been

11     admitted as part of Prosecution exhibit because they form an

12     indispensable and inseparable part of this witness's statement.  So to be

13     sure, these include pages 6140, 6163, 6193, 6197, 6207, and 6008 of this

14     23109, and will be added to -- or already have been added to Exhibit

15     P4757.

16             MS. WEST: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we see the next

19     page, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is it true that at 10.50 you were informed that the Army of

22     Republika Srpska has pulled back a little, that it was quiet?  You say

23     here you have no information and that you will get information

24     occasionally from Franken; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26884

 1        Q.   It's the 12th at 10.50.  Still no trucks or buses in sight.

 2        A.   I don't remember the exact time when the buses arrived, but it

 3     happened on the 12th.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is going to be added to that

 8     D number; right?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, 2212.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 6173, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you remember this?  It was 12th July, half past 4.00.  You

13     say:

14             [As read] "UNPROFOR is asking, if MSF plus UNMO can go back into

15     Srebrenica to pick up the rest of the patients in the hospital [In

16     English] 6 and the social centre 10 to 20.  What is your opinion?

17             "I don't know anymore.  UN thinks now that everything is in the

18     hands of BSA it is safe."

19             [Interpretation] Do you recall this telegram?

20        A.   Yes, I do.  And I did not go on that day, but the day after.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be added to 2212 as well.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Still no buses in your reports; right?

Page 26885

 1        A.   I would have to go through the telexes myself, if I have to

 2     remember the exact timing.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 6175 if it hasn't

 5     been admitted yet.  I think we've seen it already.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Here, at 6.10, it says:

 8             "UN is starting with the evacuation of the wounded with trucks to

 9     Tuzla."

10             [In English] "Every car will be escorted by UN."

11             [Interpretation] And we're talking now about those 35 people who

12     were kept in a house and they are still treated well.  So the first

13     evacuations are mentioned at 6.10; right?

14        A.   Yes, that is true.  And I'm reporting here that one-quarter of

15     the refugees outside, which must be then approximately 5.000, have been

16     deported to Kladanj.

17        Q.   Is it true that in the amalgamated statement, paragraph 45, you

18     said:

19             [As read] [In English] "... looked clear it was that they were

20     desperate to leave."

21        A.   Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  Oh, no.  No,

23     sorry.  This one on the screen, is it already in evidence?

24             JUDGE KWON:  I think you dealt with it.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I remember those 35 people, but I'm

Page 26886

 1     not sure.  We'll check.  Could we now see 6178.  Although this looks

 2     familiar too.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do you recall this telegram?  It's the 13th July at 11.34?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   We see the convoy arrived carrying water, goods, diesel, cleaning

 7     material, et cetera.

 8             Look at item 4.  It says:

 9             "It is not yet known how many people were captured, but Mladic

10     told UN Military Observers that the BH army has several hundreds of dead

11     soldiers in the area of the Bandera triangle.  He also asked that the

12     commander of UNPROFOR to contact the BH army and to inform them [In

13     English] that it is not the intention of the General to kill any more

14     soldiers of B and H.  They only have to surrender and hand their weapons.

15     Colonel Acamovic is a special representative of Mladic who is in charge

16     from now on."

17             [Interpretation] Did Franken inform you of this?

18        A.   Well, if I may remind about the first sentence, what I did here

19     is that was a telex of UNMO, probably to their superiors, which they gave

20     me and which I just copied to the team of my organisation, to Belgrade.

21     So within this part you are mentioning and you have been reading partly,

22     this is not information from UNPROFOR but from the UNMOs.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you could you look a bit further below:

24             "On the spot ... doctors are doing triage?"

25        A.   UN doctors are doing triage.

Page 26887

 1        Q.   And could you tell us what triage means?

 2        A.   Triage means putting patients in different categories.  If you

 3     have limited sources, limited resources, and you have, for example, a big

 4     number of patients and you are aware due to limited resources, like

 5     limited ICU capacity, or limited drugs, you need to choose who is being

 6     treated first.  And by writing here "UN doctors are doing triage" means

 7     that they are having a look at different patients, either presenting

 8     themselves or they have found them within the group of displaced.  They

 9     choose which one shoot be transported first into the hospital into the UN

10     compound.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  If hasn't been, it will be added to

14     D2212.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Next page, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Look at this, please.  Is it also 13th of July at 1332?  You say

19     here:

20             "Bits and pieces of info.  Medical convoy returned finally," and

21     so on.

22             Andre, the anaesthetist -- maybe that is the Andre, the

23     anaesthesiologist, the one who provided you with certain assessments;

24     right?

25        A.   Well, when we were speaking before about Andre, there were three

Page 26888

 1     Andres all together.  There was -- on 27th of June I met Andre from

 2     UNHCR.  There was Andre from UNMO, the Dutch UNMO.  And there was Andre

 3     who was from UNPROFOR, the anaesthetist.  So I believe when we were

 4     speaking earlier about Andre, then it was the UNMO.  Here, we are

 5     speaking about the medical doctor.

 6        Q.   So you assessed that it's very good that Andre was allowed to

 7     stay with the doctors in Bratunac; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that is true.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You say further below:

10             "Hospital mortality, zero."

11             Correct?

12        A.   I'm sorry, I still don't see --

13        Q.   Towards the bottom of what is visible now.

14        A.   Yeah, yeah, that's a daily figure.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             Could we look at the heading:  "Convoys."

17             "We are not surprised and I didn't really expect them.  We are

18     ready to manage ourselves if we have to."

19             And then you speak about helicopters.  And you say:

20             "Ken Biser, chief of civil affairs, is coming.  And then you say:

21             "Food for the DP outside.  No idea.  But like I said yesterday, I

22     had the feeling from walking through the whole camp that people have

23     food.  [In English] Bread, potatoes, biscuits, certainly not enough but

24     priority is more water and shelter from the sun.

25             "BSA agreed that the UN is repairing water station in town in

Page 26889

 1     order to get water for the DP."

 2             Displaced persons, is that so?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 6190.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Then you speak about Andre in Bratunac - that must be the

10     doctor - wants to evacuate the patients by helicopter to Sarajevo.  But

11     then look what it says below:

12             [As read] "And here comes the real problem.  [In English] Franken

13     just informed me that among the wounded in Bratunac there are a few high

14     BH soldiers with a good record from the past.  BSA doesn't want to leave

15     these ones going, but since all the world is informed about the figures,

16     they cannot just remove them.  Therefore, nobody gets clearance."

17             [Interpretation] So this demand to stop six or seven wounded was

18     not arbitrary.  It depended on their identities and that's what Franken

19     told you?

20        A.   I'm sorry, would you please repeat the translation.

21        Q.   That was my question.  Did Franken inform you that those six or

22     seven wounded in whom the Army of Republika Srpska was interested had

23     been selected, not because they were Muslims but because there existed

24     good records from the past?

25             [In English] "And a few high BH soldiers."

Page 26890

 1        A.   Well, we are speaking about different men because this telex

 2     associates from the 14th, and some of the patients were already in

 3     Bratunac.  The seven were being identified by Commander Nikolic in our

 4     hospital on the 17th.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] And they were the problem, because the Army of

 6     Republika Srpska did not want to allow them to be evacuated; correct?

 7        A.   That is what, on the 14th, Commander Franken told me.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 6192, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you recall this from the 15th July?

14             "The medical situation under control.  Patients taken care of."

15             Then look below:

16             "Meeting with Franken:  No news.  Apparently nine international

17     organisations are trying to get us out here.  [In English] He still has

18     one colonel posted in Bratunac in order to follow the negotiations with

19     BSA.  His opinion is, that we shouldn't push discussions with the BSA

20     over the edge.

21             "I asked him if he sees any other reason for the blocking than

22     the prisoners of war, and he is very convinced that there is none."

23             [Interpretation] Does this refer to those six or seven who were

24     thought to be high-ranking army officers with thick records from the

25     past?

Page 26891

 1        A.   I think I answered this already.  Because when I quoted the high

 2     records of the past, these were many patients already in Bratunac before

 3     the 17th.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's time for you to pose your last

 7     questions.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be two, Your Excellency?

 9     I want to show one document and one question --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- if the witness agrees.  Thank

12     you.

13             65 ter 23127 is the document I would like to call.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you recall this telegram that was sent to you?  It relates to

16     the 10th of July at 2.48.  Please focus on the third paragraph:

17             "Here in Pale -- or he in Pale was very surprised to hear our

18     info.  [In English] He just received a clearance" --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Schmitz.

20             THE WITNESS:  It's meaning HCR, which is the United Nations High

21     Commissioner for Refugees.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC:

24        Q.   I see.  I see, I see.

25             "HCR in Pale was very surprised to hear our info.  He just

Page 26892

 1     received our clearance for a convoy for Tuesday, and therefore it does

 2     not make much sense.  In a way it is a positive sign that they don't plan

 3     anything radical."

 4             [Interpretation] Did you know that the Serbian army didn't have a

 5     decision to enter Srebrenica and that, for that reason, the convoy got

 6     clearance?

 7        A.   No, I did not know.  I was also not aware that there was a convoy

 8     expected on the 11th of July and, indeed, it did not come.  If it's the

 9     same convoy, I don't know if -- but on 13th in the evening, there was a

10     convoy coming.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2215, Your Honours.  Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And here's my last question, madam:  Is it true or did you know

17     that I had approved for all your local staff to be let go with you?  And

18     did they go with you, if they wanted to?

19        A.   Our male national staff did go with us.  I did not know that it

20     was you personally who approved.

21        Q.   Did Nikolic tell you that President Karadzic had amnestied them?

22     You didn't know that I was at the source of this.

23        A.   No, I did not know.  And maybe if I may add one remark, our male

24     national staff did come with us, leaving Srebrenica, except Meho.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 26893

 1             Yes, Ms. West.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I suspect I'll be only a

 3     few minutes at this point.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. West:

 5        Q.   Earlier today in cross-examination, at page 35 and 36,

 6     Mr. Karadzic asked you some questions that regarded the basis for your

 7     suspicion that people would be killed.  And you gave an answer to that,

 8     and then you also told the Court about an incident that happened with a

 9     Muslim father and a baby.  And then he asked you some further questions

10     about the baby.

11             Do you remember this exchange?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13             MS. WEST:  Okay.  May I have 65 ter 23679, please, and I will

14     have page 2 at the bottom.

15        Q.   Ma'am, earlier you mentioned you had a translator, female

16     translator.  Was her name Emira Selimovic?

17        A.   Yes.  That was our only female translator.

18        Q.   Okay.  We are going to look at a statement, interview of that

19     woman in August 1995.  We'll go to page 2 at the bottom.  It's the bottom

20     paragraph in English, and she's talking about an incident on 12 July and

21     she said towards the bottom that she was walking around with her boss

22     Christina to see the civilians around the compound and in the village.

23     And then she says:

24             "We took care of about 15 civilians including a

25     one-and-a-half-year-old girl, Irma Hasanovic, whose father was taken away

Page 26894

 1     while we were present by a soldier of the aggressor army who was wearing

 2     a hat and a camouflage uniform, about 25 years old, thin, about

 3     185 centimetres.  This soldier took Hasanovic" - and we'll move to the

 4     next page - "towards a small house near the UNPROFOR check-point at the

 5     factory gate.  Besides me and my boss, Christine Schmitz, the scene was

 6     calmly watched by UN personnel.  The father of Irma Hasanovic was about

 7     28 or 29 years old, thin, with a slightly receding hairline, brown hair

 8     and about 190 centimetres tall."

 9             So, ma'am, this recounting of that incident, is this the same

10     incident you spoke of?

11        A.   That is the same incident.  However, I do not remember that Emira

12     was with me at that time.

13        Q.   Okay.  But in the description of this incident the father is

14     described at about 28 or 29.  Does that sound about right to you?

15        A.   Very much so.

16        Q.   Okay.  And this baby, her name is Irma Hasanovic, and this the

17     baby that you mentioned on that list; correct?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   She says here she is about one and a half years old?

20        A.   I thought it was approximately, so that makes a lot of sense.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 23680 and may it not be broadcast,

23     please.  This is a document regarding the reception of displaced persons

24     in Tuzla from the 13th to the 15th of July and it's stamped by the

25     provider.  And if we go to page 2, please, and look at line 183, we will

Page 26895

 1     see a name there.  The name is Irma Hasanovic.  And under father's name,

 2     it says Nusret.  And an indication she that's female and that she was

 3     born in 1994 in Srebrenica.

 4        Q.   Ma'am, does this information about the baby girl match up with

 5     this incident that you've told us about?

 6        A.   It does match.  We handed the baby to ICRC on 17 July.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   So they did go to Tuzla.  I don't know what happened after.

 9        Q.   Okay.  That's fine.

10             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I would move to admit this document under

11     seal.  I suspect we can address the issue of sealing later.  I will just

12     need to speak to the provider.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4759, under seal, Your Honours.

15     Thank you.

16             MS. WEST:

17        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  I have no further questions.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Ms. Schmitz.  On

21     behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal I'd like to thank you for your

22     coming to The Hague to give it.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much of having listening to me.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Now you're free to go.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 26896

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As a medical doctor, I would like

 2     to thank you for helping in Bosnia.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Are you ready to proceed with next witness?  Yes.

 5             We need to --

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Before we go into the closed session for the next

 8     witness, I'd like to deal with two administrative matters.

 9             With respect to the accused's request to have assistance of

10     Defence expert in courtroom for testimony of expert witnesses Brunborg

11     and Tabeau, filed on 14th of March, 2012, which the Prosecution does not

12     oppose, the Chamber, following the past practice, grants the request in

13     light of the technical nature of the evidence to be provided by witnesses

14     Helge Brunborg and Ewa Tabeau.

15             And as regards the accused's motion to modify protective measures

16     as regards Witness KDZ071, which was filed on Friday, 23rd of March,

17     2012, given that this witness is on the Prosecution witness list for

18     April, the Chamber requests that the Prosecution submit an expedited

19     response to this motion by Wednesday, 28th of March, 2012.

20             We go into closed session.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26897











11  Pages 26897-26914 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 26915

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.51 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of March,

12                           2012, at 9.00 a.m.