Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27135

 1                           Thursday, 29 March 2012

 2                           [Closed session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 27136

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Pages 27136-27171 redacted.  Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 27172

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25                           --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.


Page 27173

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If the witness could take the solemn declaration,

 2     please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated.

 6             Good morning, Ms. Gustafson.  Do we need any warning to the

 7     witness?

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, Your Honour.  There was none in the previous

 9     case and I see no reason to have one here.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Yes, please proceed.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  KDZ610

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Ms. Gustafson:

16        Q.   Good morning, sir.

17        A.   Good morning.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 90327 on the screen not

19     to be broadcast publicly, please.

20        Q.   Sir, do you see on the screen in front of you a witness statement

21     of yours that was read to you in your language a few days ago --

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   -- and that you signed on the 27th of March, 2012?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And is your name and are your other personal details correct on


Page 27174

 1     that statement?  And please don't mention any of those details publicly.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And is this statement true and -- to the best of your knowledge

 4     and does it accurately reflect the things that you said that are

 5     contained in this document?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And if I asked you in court today the questions you were asked

 8     when you gave the information in this statement, would you give the Court

 9     the same answers that are contained in your statement?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this statement under seal,

12     please, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, do you understand English?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So this statement was read to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Yes, this will be admitted under seal.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4837, under seal, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

22             Now I'd like to read a brief summary of the statement and because

23     of the witness's protective measures it will be quite brief and general

24     and in nature.  And in that regard I'd like to mention that information

25     about the specific job and tasks that the witness carried out at the time


Page 27175

 1     should be discussed in private session because they might reveal his

 2     identity.

 3             Witness KDZ610 lived in Zvornik in 1992.  He describes the

 4     outbreak of the conflict in Zvornik on 8 April 1992.  The Serbs and the

 5     JNA attacked the Muslims of Zvornik and Muslims fled the municipality.

 6     KDZ610 provides evidence about the detention of Muslim civilians in

 7     Zvornik, including at the Alhos factory, Ekonomija farm and

 8     Celopek Dom Kulture.  He also provides evidence about mass killings of

 9     Muslims in Zvornik municipality, including killings at Drinjaca school

10     and Gero's slaughter-house.

11             That concludes the summary.

12        Q.   Sir, I just have one question for you today and it's just a minor

13     point of clarification.  In your statement at a couple of places you make

14     reference to the Standard building as the building where the army staff

15     was located, and I'd like to ask you if this is the same building as

16     what's known as the Standard footwear factory or the Novi Standard

17     footwear factory or whether those are different buildings?

18        A.   The Standard building was where the army was located, the army

19     and the police.  That was a new building.  That was the new building of

20     the Standard Zvornik footwear factory.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I have no further questions.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we deal with the associated exhibits,

24     Ms. Gustafson?

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  Those are the


Page 27176

 1     exhibits that were listed in the revised 92 ter notification of the

 2     27th of March and they can all be tendered publicly save for

 3     65 ter 23676, which is a map drawn by the witness and it contains his

 4     signature, that one should be under seal.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And you do not object to the addition of the

 8     documents to the list?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And as regards the excerpt of video you are only

11     tendering that part of the excerpt?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  Except for ones that have already been

14     admitted, they will be all admitted into evidence and be given number in

15     due course.

16             Sir, your evidence was admitted in writing in form -- in the form

17     of your statement in lieu of your oral testimony, as you noted.  You'll

18     be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

19             Do you understand that, sir?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Further, that you're testifying today with the

22     benefit of pseudonym, image and voice distortion, so whenever you feel

23     like your answer may reveal your real name or identity, then don't

24     hesitate to ask us to go into private session where the people outside

25     this courtroom cannot follow the proceedings at all.  Do you also


Page 27177

 1     understand that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Witness.

 7        A.   Good day.

 8        Q.   I have to remind myself of this as well, but I kindly ask you to

 9     pause between the questions and answers because otherwise the

10     interpreters will not be able to interpret everything that is said.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly move into private

12     session, please, because the witness could be identified on the basis of

13     this question and answer.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]


Page 27178

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Please do remember to pause.  If you can follow the transcript,

 5     when the letter A appears, then it is your turn to speak.  Did you have

 6     any hostile feelings towards Muslims and Croats?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   When you see this A, then it's your turn to speak.  Thank you.

 9             Did you ever have the wish or intention to have the Muslims

10     exterminated, killed, or expelled?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Although you are not interested in politics, you did

13     notice that there was a political life going on in your municipality;

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that after the first democratic

17     multi-party elections for a while there was harmony and do we agree that

18     tensions started when the Party of Democratic Action moved to secede from

19     Yugoslavia?

20        A.   Well, what I'd say to that is I'm no politician.  I don't know

21     what the intention of the Party of Democratic Action was, whether they

22     wanted to secede or not.  Bogic, Bogicevic was up there, the Presidency,

23     what they did -- well, in my view they all wanted to separate from

24     Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Then I'm not going to dwell on this topic any longer.


Page 27179

 1             Do you remember when I and Adil Zulfikarpasic in the summer of

 2     1991 held a public rally aimed at the reconciliation of Serbs and

 3     Muslims?  Did you attend perhaps?

 4        A.   I was not interested in politics and I did not attend that rally.

 5        Q.   Fair enough.  Thank you.  Then we're going to move on to things

 6     that you observed yourself.  Is it correct that you observed that there

 7     was tension, that there was some organisation going on within the ethnic

 8     communities and arming?  You do speak about that in your statement, don't

 9     you?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes, I observed that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any insight, specific insight, or less

12     specific insight into the fact that the Muslim side had the Green Berets,

13     the Patriotic League, the Black Swans, the Mosque Doves, and so on, all

14     these paramilitary units in your town?

15        A.   None of that was in Zvornik, no Green Berets, no Swans, no

16     military formations organised by the Muslims, that is.

17        Q.   All right.  Did you notice that arming was underway?

18        A.   There was arming, on the Muslim side too.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know -- actually, we can show that, other

20     witnesses confirmed that, that the Party of Democratic Action and its

21     people who worked on the police force armed the Muslims, like

22     Redzo Mesanovic and others?

23        A.   The Party of Democratic Action, Redzo Mesanovic -- well, the

24     Muslims were only armed by the SUP on the afternoon of the 8th of April

25     when Serbs entered Zvornik from Karakaj and then they gave them weapons


Page 27180

 1     and those were the weapons that they had.  As for the rest, I don't know

 2     if Redzo Mesanovic armed someone.  I don't know about that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that before the 8th of April the Muslim

 4     side took over Zvornik and that considerably before the war Serbs would

 5     go and spend the night on the other side of the river, in Serbia?

 6        A.   It is correct that Serbs went to Serbia over the weekend, to

 7     sleep there, and it is not correct that the Muslims took over Zvornik.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let us cast a glance at a statement made by a Muslim

 9     witness.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since we had trouble finding it,

11     could we please be allowed to have it placed on the ELMO.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Did you know this man?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this please not be broadcast

15     although I don't think it's a secret statement, but anyway.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Did you know this man?  Do you see his name here?

18        (redacted)  He's an activist in Zvornik even now.

19        Q.   What do you mean activist, of the SDA?

20        A.   He is now president of the local commune, these Muslims who

21     returned.  He's sort of co-operating with them well --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just in case shall we go into

23     private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)


Page 27181

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Page 27181 redacted.  Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 27182

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, we are now in open session.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to complete my

11     sentence, Your Excellencies.  I'm interested in having a public session,

12     but the Defence will never and under no conditions sabotage the witness's

13     protective measures, won't pose a threat to the witness's protective

14     measures.  So I was just being cautious.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So, Witness, you say that he is an activist today.  In fact, you

17     referred to the Muslims who had returned, and in a certain sense he is a

18     leader, or rather, president of the local commune that they live in;

19     isn't that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at the next page

23     now.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you remember that there were certain proposals, certain


Page 27183

 1     discussions about the establishment of two municipalities in Zvornik, a

 2     Serbian one and a Muslim one?

 3        A.   Well, I heard something about that proposal, but I'm not familiar

 4     with the matter and I'm not a politician.  It concerned Brano Grujic and

 5     the president of the municipality, Ivic.  I can't remember his name.

 6     They had some sort of discussion about that, but there's nothing specific

 7     I can tell you about the case because I wasn't informed.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Have a look at the sixth line from the bottom.

 9     Towards the end of March 1992 members of the SDS asked for the

10     municipality and for the authorities to be divided in Zvornik.  There

11     were negotiations with Abdulah -- very well, it's the first line.  It

12     says there were negotiations in the SUP building.  SDA members went to

13     those discussions.  So you heard about this proposal for two

14     municipalities?

15        A.   I heard about that, but there's nothing I can tell you about the

16     matter because I'm not familiar with it.  I could make a mistake if I

17     said something about it, so it's better for me not to go into it.

18        Q.   I only want to know whether you heard about that matter, not

19     whether that should have been done or not.

20        A.   Yes, I heard about it.

21        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  All I want is for you to confirm or deny

22     certain things I put to you.  We don't have to discuss these things, or

23     rather, you don't have to comment on them, that's not necessary.

24             Please have a look at this page, in particular the part where it

25     says on the following day, on the 7th of April, 1992, in front of the SUP


Page 27184

 1     building Muslim citizens were assembling and they asked for protection or

 2     for weapons for their self-defence.  They were led by Redzo Mesanovic, a

 3     police member, and he asked Commander Osman Mustafic for weapons for the

 4     people.  His request was refused because it was said that it wasn't the

 5     time for that and that it was illegal.  Then the citizens forcibly

 6     entered the warehouse and they took small quantities of weapons and

 7     ammunition that they distributed in the streets for the purpose of

 8     defence.

 9             Is that correct?

10        A.   No, that's not correct.

11        Q.   What did you say?

12        A.   That's not correct.

13        Q.   So this witness is lying in that case.  Very well.

14             Have a look at the next paragraph.  It says -- or rather, it's

15     the next sentence.

16             "I know that some citizens of Serbian nationality were there and

17     they left the town because they feared an attack from the Muslim side."

18             That is what you yourself experienced; isn't that correct?  The

19     Serbs went to sleep over in Serbia because they were afraid?

20        A.   I don't believe it was because they were afraid.

21        Q.   Well, in that case why?

22        A.   Only women and children went there; the men didn't.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Have a look at the last two lines.  That evening it

24     was calm in the town and members of the Muslim police force went on

25     patrol in the town.  Members of the regular and reserve police force.


Page 27185

 1             Were you aware of the fact that these police forces regularly

 2     patrolled the town?  A while ago you said that they didn't do that but

 3     this person says that they did.

 4        A.   As far as I know, that evening, on the 7th of April, there was a

 5     joint police force, the Muslims and Serbs jointly controlled or patrolled

 6     in the town.

 7        Q.   Witness, the Serbs and Muslims carried out checks at the

 8     beginning of April together, but on the 6th, 7th, and 8th of April, the

 9     Serbs fled and the Muslims increased the number of reserve forces and

10     controlled or checked the situation in the town.  Is what this witness

11     says is correct?

12        A.   I don't know.  I don't know whether the force was increased or

13     not.

14        Q.   Very well.  Let's have a look at the next page.

15             Do you agree with what he says?  It's the last sentence in the

16     second paragraph.  It says there is street fighting and then our

17     defenders are withdrawing to the old part of town and to the Kula Grad

18     settlement, where more forcible resistance is being organised.

19        A.   There was no street fighting of any kind.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I just find it difficult to follow

21     this questioning.  You have no English translation.  It's very difficult

22     for us to follow and witness is denying most of your questions.  I don't

23     see the point of putting this statement to the witness.  You can simply

24     ask the question to the witness and later on you can present this

25     statement or whatever witness you can later -- at a later stage.


Page 27186

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll leave this

 2     statement aside.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I wanted to ask you about something that you certainly know

 5     about, something that you also refer to in your statements.  In your

 6     earlier statement paragraph 8, it's in the amalgamated statement I think,

 7     you said that you saw -- in fact, when you went to Kula Grad -- you went

 8     to Kula Grad, did you not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Please make a pause.

11             You said that you saw a sniper of some kind who didn't hit

12     anyone, but he did open fire to direct the people or something of the

13     sort in -- to direct them in a certain direction.  Whose sniper was he?

14        A.   Well, he was a Serbian sniper, of course.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And then you returned from Kula Grad, isn't that

16     correct, to Zvornik on the 23rd of April?

17        A.   From Tuzla.

18        Q.   Very well.  So you left on the 8th or 9th and you went to

19     Kula Grad; isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   How long did you stay in Kula Grad?

22        A.   I spent a night there.

23        Q.   And then you went to Tuzla with your family; is that correct?

24        A.   Well, you have everything down in writing there.

25        Q.   Well, very well.  I know about that, but I want you to tell the


Page 27187

 1     Chamber about this.  And you didn't return until the 23rd.  Isn't that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at the monitor and wait for the letter A.

 5             When you returned -- if you want us to move into private session

 6     we can, but when you returned you found employment of a certain kind.  Do

 7     you want us to move into private session?  And you weren't the only one

 8     to find such employment.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   No, I wasn't.  If you're going to ask me other questions about my

10     duties, about my employment, I would like to move into private session.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please move briefly into

12     private session?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 27188

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Pages 27188-27189 redacted.  Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 27190

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is it true that Kazanbasca is a cemetery and a Muslim one?

23        A.   It's true that it's a Muslim cemetery and that those killed

24     Muslims were buried there.

25   (redacted)


Page 27191

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now this will have to be redacted

 9     and my sentence too.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll take -- yes, Ms. Gustafson.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, Your Honours, if we could move into

12     private session briefly.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 27192

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So were the instructions obeyed?  Was it really done that way?

12        A.   Work began according to the instructions, but it did not end that

13     way because there was not enough room in that cemetery.  So one mass

14     grave was dug in two rows contrary to what we had planned.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19             JUDGE KWON:  By all means, yes.  We go into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 27193

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Pages 27193-27197 redacted.  Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 27198

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Is it correct that Kula Grad was taken later, after Zvornik was

16     taken over?

17        A.   Kula Grad was taken -- well, I don't know the exact date.  But at

18     any rate, tanks entered and there was no resistance there whatsoever.

19     They got in and all the people that were there left for Tuzla, they went

20     to the free area up there.  I left too and went to Tuzla on the

21     morning -- on the 9th in the morning and I don't know what happened after

22     that.

23        Q.   I see.  So you were not there then?

24        A.   No, I was not.

25        Q.   If I were to tell you that Kula Grad was taken after the


Page 27199

 1     23rd of April, in military terms, would you remember that?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I cannot remember any of that.

 3        Q.   All right.  Since you were not there, did you hear whether anyone

 4     was active there between the 8th of April and the taking of Kula Grad on

 5     the 23rd?  Did anyone fire from up there using mortars or other weaponry?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   There was no firing or did you not hear of anything like that?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   What does the "no" pertain to?  Are you saying that that did not

10     happen or are you saying that you did not hear of that happening?

11        A.   There was no firing.

12        Q.   How do you know when you were not there?

13        A.   Well, I was there on the 8th and there was no firing then, none

14     at all.

15        Q.   And between the 9th and the end of April, when Kula Grad was

16     taken, did Kula Grad have a military formation and was there any firing

17     from there?

18        A.   Well, that I don't know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now it's clearer.

20             At the time when you were there, did you see paramilitary

21     formations ruling the city?

22        A.   In my view, the paramilitary formations, when I first stayed

23     there in Zvornik, they were the ruling force there and they were the

24     beginning and end of all, as you had put it.

25        Q.   Thank you.


Page 27200

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D5497, could we briefly have a

 2     look at that, can we have that in e-court, and yes, it can be broadcast.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is a report of the public security station of Zvornik for

 5     July, August, and September.  And now the second paragraph says that the

 6     station operated in very difficult circumstances and was unable to

 7     operate in accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs because in the

 8     territory of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik there were large and

 9     small paramilitary groups that operated, rendering the activities of the

10     station impossible as well as other state organs.  They were trying to

11     create a psychosis of fear and insecurity amongst the citizens.

12             Does that correspond to your own knowledge as well?

13        A.   I said a moment ago that these paramilitary formations in your

14     view were the be-all and end-all there.  And the public security station

15     also issued this statement.

16             So what is my opinion?  Because of these paramilitary formations

17     the civilian authorities could not operate.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 of this

20     document.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I'd like to ask you to take a look at this.  Was this your

23     knowledge as well?  Namely, they complained here that they did not have

24     any footwear, they did not have any pistols, only 20 per cent of them had

25     pistols, they did not have any truncheons or handcuffs.  The station did


Page 27201

 1     not have a single all-terrain vehicle, and also there was a shortage of

 2     fuel.  Was that your experience too and did your company encounter

 3     similar difficulties?

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm wondering if we should be in private session,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's go into private session briefly.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 27202

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Page 27202 redacted.  Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 27203

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.


Page 27204

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Now we are in open session.  And as we are nearing

 2     the time for our break, can I ask you how much more time would you need

 3     for your cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that I will finish by the

 5     break.  That is my intention, to finish by the break.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Did you have any insight as to how Serbs fared in the place where

 9     you spent those two weeks?  Did you know what we were doing to one

10     another there and what the situation was?

11        A.   I don't know what you mean by where I was during those two weeks.

12     Are you referring to Tuzla?  If you meant Tuzla, we were fine there.

13        Q.   All right.  I didn't want to say where it was that you were.

14             Thank you, Mr. Witness.  I have no further questions.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, do you have any re-examination?

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Very briefly, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18                           Re-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

19        Q.   Sir, I just have one question for you, really, that we can deal

20     with in open session.  You mentioned earlier in your evidence that

21     because of the paramilitary formations the civilian authorities could not

22     function.  The Chamber has received evidence that paramilitary formations

23     in Zvornik were on the payroll of the Territorial Defence and received

24     salaries from the municipal authorities.  Do you know anything about

25     that?


Page 27205

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, I'm not sure whether

 2     that's for this witness, because we've already discussed that.  That was

 3     in the beginning, while there were still normal volunteers in the

 4     Territorial Defence.  The witness will be misled.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about any of

 6     this.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's all I was looking for, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.  That concludes my questions.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Well, thank you.  That concludes your evidence, sir.

10     And on behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you

11     for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go, but if

12     you could wait --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But if you could wait a bit more.

15             Are there any matters to be raised at the moment?  Then we'll

16     adjourn all together.

17             We'll have a break and I wish you all a happy Easter and we'll

18     resume on the 10th at 9.00, 10th of April.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that we have the same

20     schedule, namely, that the Orthodox Easter week will be observed as well

21     except for two exceptions.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the way it should be.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So we are not sitting on -- let me be sure.  We are

24     not sitting on 13th, Friday, 13th, and Monday, 16th.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.


Page 27206

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But we are resuming on 10th of April at 9.00.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And the Defence wishes

 3     a happy Easter to those who celebrate this Gregorian Easter.  Happy

 4     Easter to all of you.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.27 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of

 7                           April, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25