Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27322

 1                           Wednesday, 11 April 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.07 a.m.

 5             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Your Honours.  As you know, today we

 6     have -- we have a witness who is testifying via videolink.  I understand

 7     that the technology is all set up and we're ready to go.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27323

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           --- Break taken at 8.12 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 8.39 a.m.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Closed session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27324











11  Pages 27324-27360 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 27361

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond with regard to the

13     quoted pages.  Given that we dealt with the statement of this witness, we

14     don't have to deal with this, however we need to address the issue of the

15     witness's testimony in the Popovic case.  So apart from that, we do not

16     wish to tender anything else into evidence.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Any observations, Ms. West?

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             MS. WEST:  I don't.  I'm not -- I'm not clear what Mr. Karadzic

20     means as to we need to address the witness's evidence in the Popovic

21     case.  That was admitted as an exhibit, so I don't -- I don't have any

22     comment otherwise.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  So, we'll leave it at that.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe I wasn't quite clear.  I

25     said that part of the questions pertained to the transcript that was

Page 27362

 1     already in evidence, whereas the other questions pertained to the

 2     statements given by the witness.  The witness confirmed them.  And for

 3     that reason we are tendering them into evidence.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I assume that that was the position,

 5     Dr. Karadzic, but thank you for making it plain.

 6             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, we would call Investigator

 7     Tomasz Blaszczyk, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, while we are waiting for the

 9     witness, with your leave I will just correct:  The document 30867,

10     instead of C3, would we have C4, since C3 was already taken.  Thank you.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Good morning.  Let the witness take the solemn

13     declaration, please.

14             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  TOMASZ BLASZCZYK

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.  If you'd like to sit and make

18     yourself comfortable.  And having taken the declaration in English, are

19     you content to use English as the language of response, or it doesn't

20     matter if you don't, whichever you prefer.

21             THE WITNESS:  English is okay, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

23             Yes, Ms. West.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Examination by Ms. West:

Page 27363

 1        Q.   Good morning.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   What is your name?

 4        A.   My name is Tomasz Blaszczyk.

 5        Q.   Sir, and you testified twice before in this case most recently in

 6     January of this year but, prior to that, in August of 2010; is that

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.  This is correct.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us what the general subject matter of the testimony

10     that you gave in August 2010, please?

11        A.   In August 2010, I testified in this trial about the notebooks

12     seized at the house of General Ratko Mladic on -- in December 2008 and in

13     February 2010.

14        Q.   And besides the notebooks that were seized during those two

15     searches, were other items seized as well?

16        A.   Yes.  Except, apart that notebooks were seized in -- during these

17     two searches, also there were other items like -- especially the second

18     search in February 2010, there was seized also medical documentation of

19     General Ratko Mladic, some documents, some audiotapes, video-tapes, DVDs,

20     CDs, and dictaphone tapes.

21        Q.   Okay.  And that's what we're going to focus on today.  We're not

22     going to focus on the first search, from December of 2008, we're going to

23     focus on the second search, which is February 2010.

24             When did you first receive information that the search had taken

25     place?

Page 27364

 1        A.   The OTP received this information that the search occurred

 2     shortly after it happened, after in -- I believe it was end of

 3     February 2010.

 4        Q.   And in March did you receive some information about what was

 5     seized?

 6        A.   Yes.  In -- on the 29 of March, OTP received a hard drive

 7     containing the scanned version of the documents seized at

 8     General Ratko Mladic place and also the copy of -- of the tapes,

 9     audiotapes, video-tapes, CDs seized in the same location on

10     23 of February, 2010.

11        Q.   And subsequent to that was the original material, the actual

12     items that were seized, were they delivered to the ICTY?

13        A.   Yes.  At the request of OTP, the Serbian authorities delivered

14     these -- the seized material to our field office in Belgrade.  It

15     happened on 27 April 2010.

16        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to go there and see it yourself?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  In May, beginning of May and 7 of May I went to

18     Belgrade field office, and on 9 of May I reviewed this material

19     personally.  I mean, I checked the receipt or the list of the material

20     physically with the material itself at our field office if Belgrade.

21        Q.   So let's back up.  Between the time of April 27 and May 9th,

22     where was this material held?

23        A.   The material was held at our field office in Belgrade at

24     investigate -- at investigator's room, our investigator from the field

25     office, and material was secured and locked entire time between 27 and 9

Page 27365

 1     of -- in fact 10 of May, 2010.

 2        Q.   And when you arrived there in May, what did you do regarding that

 3     material?

 4        A.   As I said already, we -- we checked the inventory list and

 5     physically the material locked at this investigation room in Belgrade

 6     field office, and we packed -- I packed this material to diplomatic bag

 7     and I drove this material, I think I drove the car, but together with

 8     material we drove together with my colleague investigator to -- to

 9     The Hague.  And we arrived at the The Hague on the 11 of May -- May,

10     2010, and the same day delivered this material to our Evidence Unit.

11        Q.   And once you set eyes on the material when you arrived in

12     Belgrade to the moment that it arrived at the evidence unit here in

13     The Hague, was the material always within your custody?

14        A.   Yes, it's correct.  In fact, you know, when we checked the

15     material on the 9th of May, 2010, we -- we sealed this material in this

16     diplomatic bag and we left the bag at our field office also in secure

17     room, room in Belgrade, and the following day on the 10th, the morning,

18     we -- we drove to -- to The Hague.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   And since -- since then, the material was entire time with me

21     until I delivered this material to our Evidence Unit here in The Hague.

22             MS. WEST:  May we have 65 ter 22939.

23        Q.   I'd like to talk about the items that were seized.  Excluding the

24     notebooks.  We're not going to talk about the notebooks.

25             So we're going to look at 65 ter 22939.  This is a report dated

Page 27366

 1     April 30th, 2010.  Do you see that in front of you now?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Is this something you recognise?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.  I recognise this -- this document.  We received this

 5     document from -- from Republic of Serbia.  This is -- this is a report of

 6     the contents of the seized documentation from -- from Ratko Mladic house.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And I think we all see it now.  Yes.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You said this is a report of the contents of the seized

10     documentation.  Can you tell us - I'm just understanding it's a report -

11     is there some analysis involved with it as well?

12        A.   Yes.  I said content, but this is a kind of analysis, what is --

13     what was exactly seized - what was in the notebooks, what was in the

14     documentation, what was on the tapes.

15        Q.   All right.  And this is a very lengthy report, but does this

16     report include all the items that were seized and brought back to

17     The Hague?

18        A.   Yes, this is correct.  All the items which were handed over to

19     OTP are included in this report.

20        Q.   And how do you know that this report and list is consistent with

21     what was actually seized?

22        A.   I read this report.  I checked this report.  I compared this

23     report also with -- with other documents we've received from the search

24     and with all we received.

25        Q.   Okay.  If we can have e-court page 348 of this, please.  Does

Page 27367

 1     this listing also include a number of recordings or tapes?

 2        A.   Yes.  This is correct.  The list includes also quite big number

 3     of -- of the tapes.

 4        Q.   And can you estimate how many tapes it includes?

 5        A.   If I could remember, there were about 100 tapes, audiotapes,

 6     dictaphone tapes, and other tapes.  Also CDs, some CDs, and DVDs.

 7        Q.   All right.  So we're looking at page 338 and I want to focus on

 8     one example of this.  We can see number 33, it says: "One dictation tape

 9     without header."  Can you tell us what it means by "dictation tape"?

10        A.   Your Honour, this is small tape used for dictaphones in sometime

11     ago when you are using dictaphones to record some conversation or

12     whatever.  And we use also the small teeny tapes, and this is this type

13     of tape.  If I could remember from the picture I seen, this is tape --

14     Olympus tape, small dictaphone Olympus tape.

15        Q.   All right.  And specifically in regard to what's listed at

16     number 33, have you yourself reviewed this tape?

17        A.   Yes, I reviewed this tape.  I reviewed the tape and also I

18     reviewed the transcript done later on from this tape.

19        Q.   If we were to go through the rest of this report, several times

20     we see that it reflects dictaphone tapes.  Do you know why there are

21     recordings on dictaphone tapes, if you know?

22        A.   I have some assumption why it was recorded on these dictaphone

23     tapes, but -- but why exactly we never -- we never got answer for this

24     question.

25        Q.   Okay.  Then I'll leave it there.

Page 27368

 1             MS. WEST:  May we have P04484, please.

 2        Q.   So this is a transcript of a conversation.

 3             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  That's right.

 4        Q.   This is a transcript of a conversation, what looks to be between

 5     Zivanovic and Mr. Karadzic.  Now, I'm not going to review this

 6     particular -- the substance of this particular recording -- recording

 7     with you, because this was already discussed with Witness Obradovic on

 8     February 27th of this year, but specifically as to this recording, can

 9     you tell us how this recording came into OTP possession?

10        A.   This is a recording on the tape or this dictaphone tape seized

11     also at the house of General Ratko Mladic on 23 February 2010 and later

12     on handed over to OTP.

13        Q.   And is this one of the recordings that you yourself transported

14     from Belgrade back to The Hague?

15        A.   Yes.  This is -- this is correct.  This is part of the material I

16     transported to The Hague on 11 May 2010.

17        Q.   And does this recording correspond to what we just looked at at

18     page 380 -- excuse me, 348 in the big listing?  Is this the recording

19     that's listed there or one of the recordings that's listed there?

20        A.   Yes.  This is correct.  This is -- they are talking about the

21     same recording.

22        Q.   And how do you know that?

23        A.   If you look at the contents of this recording from our transcript

24     and if we look at the describe of -- done in this report, Serbian MUP

25     report, we see that this is the same tape.  And also, as I told

Page 27369

 1     Your Honour at the beginning, first we received the hard drive containing

 2     the scanned version of the material seized in Ratko Mladic house, and

 3     also the audio recordings on these -- on this hard drive.  And I compared

 4     the number - even the number -- this number 33 - 33 is the number of the

 5     items marked by the Serbian MUP during the search.  This is the same

 6     item.

 7        Q.   Now, you -- you mentioned the way we acquired this particular

 8     recording was you yourself drove it back.  Are all the other recordings

 9     listed in the big sheet acquired by the OTP in the same way?

10        A.   Yes, this is correct.

11             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I would tender 65 ter 22939, which is the

12     inventory sheet.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we would object to the entire

14     document being admitted.  If there's any portion such as the page that

15     she's referred to that show the origin of a particular item that's being

16     admitted into evidence, we don't object to that portion, but we don't

17     believe that the entire 440-page document should be admitted.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. West.

19             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I would say that this witness has already

20     indicated that he looked at this entire document.  He himself viewed the

21     actual items seized.  He compared two.  And he's the custodian that

22     brought this material back to The Hague.  I would submit that this is

23     just a documentation reflecting what he in fact did and it should be

24     admitted.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, it's not relevant to anything

Page 27370

 1     except for the pages that have been referenced, and it describes a lot of

 2     documents and other things that have been seized, summarises

 3     conversations that have not been introduced into evidence, and so we

 4     think that there's a lot of irrelevant material in that document.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  As much in the interests of volume economy of

 7     material, the Chamber is minded to agree with the intervention by

 8     Mr. Robinson as to this.  So just those -- those portions which are

 9     actually referred to in evidence at this stage in the trial will be

10     admitted.

11             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.  So if I'm to understand, that

12     should be the first page and page 348, which is the page that we spoke

13     about.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  The pages of document 22939 will receive number

17     P4908, Your Honours.

18             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I would also like to speak to P4484,

19     which is the transcript of the recording that the witness has just spoken

20     about, and I would ask that this be admitted for all purposes.

21             And if I may give a little bit of background on this.  This was a

22     recording that was discussed with Witness Obradovic on February 27th of

23     this year, and he was asked several questions about the substance and the

24     content of the recording itself.  This is a recording this is not

25     actually an intercept.  It's, as you heard, on a dictaphone.  So it's a

Page 27371

 1     recording of a conversation, but it's not an intercept.  At that point,

 2     the Prosecution had asked that it be exceptionally accepted into

 3     evidence.  The witness at the time had recognised Mr. Karadzic's voice

 4     and spoke about the content of the conversation.

 5             There had been an objection at the time for lack of foundation

 6     and the President also agreed and he indicated that there would be a

 7     needed foundation, perhaps placed by this witness, Mr. Blaszczyk, as to

 8     how the recording came into our possession.  I would submit that the OTP

 9     has now done that and I would ask that it be admitted substantively.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.  It will be admitted as requested, for

12     all purposes.

13             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

14             If we can have P04359, please.

15        Q.   Sir, this is an interview - at the top it says July 13th, 1995 -

16     with Radovan Karadzic, and this is an interview that the Trial Chamber

17     has seen before, specifically on February 8th, with Mr. Karadzic's

18     secretary who was a witness, Ms. Mihajlovic.

19             Sir, are you familiar with this interview?

20        A.   Yes, I am familiar with this interview.

21        Q.   And what were the circumstances under which you became aware of

22     it?

23        A.   First, I remember it was, I believe, 2005 or 2006, we -- we had

24     in possession already the interview in newspaper "El Pais" with

25     Radovan Karadzic.  The Spanish journalist conducted this interview with

Page 27372

 1     Radovan Karadzic.  And later on in 2008 we requested from the Spain

 2     authorities to have a copy of actual recording of this interview, and we

 3     received this copy of these recordings.  I believe it was 2008, October.

 4        Q.   And have you yourself listened to the recording?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   Did you recognise one of the voices?

 7        A.   Yes, I did recognise the voice of Mr. Karadzic.

 8        Q.   Did you compare the audio recording to the transcript?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  I compared the audio recording with the transcript

10     and the transcript is correct.  The interview --

11        Q.   Okay --

12        A.   Sorry.  The interview was conducted in English.  It was quite

13     easy for me to compare this transcript and recording itself.

14        Q.   And was the subject matter upon which Mr. Karadzic spoke in the

15     interview familiar to you?

16        A.   Yes, it is.  Mr. Karadzic is speaking this interview about

17     general situation in Bosnia, about political situation in Bosnia, about

18     Serbs' position in this war in Bosnia, especially related to 1995,

19     July 1995.  And also there is some information about Srebrenica enclave.

20        Q.   And did the subject matter relate to events that were unfolding

21     at the time, on July 13th, 1995?

22        A.   Yes.  The subject matter related to events which were followed

23     after July 1995.

24             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I would again admit this exhibit for all

25     purposes.  And if I can give a little background on this.  As I

Page 27373

 1     mentioned, this was a interview that was discussed with

 2     Witness Mihajlovic on February 8th, and she spoke about it in regard to

 3     the diary.  She spoke about the interview actually taking place and it

 4     corresponded with the diary.  At the time it was admitted for

 5     corroborating purposes only.  There had been an object -- objection for

 6     lack of foundation.  I would submit that that foundation has now been

 7     laid and I'd ask that it be admitted for all purposes.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.  It will be so admitted.  Thank you.

10             MS. WEST:

11        Q.   Now, lastly, sir, if we can look at 65 ter 03935A.  And for

12     everyone in the courtroom:  This is the handout that you have received.

13             During your last testimony, this year, January of this year, you

14     discussed the film footage that was made by Zoran Petrovic of some of the

15     events related to Srebrenica.  Do you remember that.

16        A.   Yes, I do remember.

17        Q.   And can you just briefly remind the Trial Chamber what that

18     footage entailed.

19        A.   Zoran Petrovic, this is Serbian journalist, he was in the area of

20     Srebrenica and Bratunac on the 13 and 14 July 1995.  In his footage he

21     recorded some events in Potocari and some events along the road from

22     Kravica towards Konjevic Polje, Kravica-Sandici-Pervani road.

23        Q.   And in regard to his footage, were some still photographs produce

24     of it?

25        A.   Yes, there were some photographs.

Page 27374

 1        Q.   And some of those stills that were produced, did you use that to

 2     produce your Petrovic road book?

 3        A.   Yes.  In this, my Petrovic road book, I compared the stills and

 4     the photographs from the Petrovic video with actual present or 2006

 5     photographs of the same area.

 6        Q.   Now, was another book also produced based in part of some of the

 7     stills from the Petrovic footage?

 8        A.   Yes.  The stills from the Petrovic footage was -- were used also

 9     for another book.  We call it Bosnian Muslim photo identification book.

10        Q.   And tell us what that book is all about.

11        A.   During our investigation related to the fall of Srebrenica, we

12     tried to identify some person depicted on this footage, especially the

13     Muslim -- also the Muslim -- Muslim men, and we -- we captured some

14     stills from the Petrovic video.  We -- we conducted investigation or we

15     conducted some action that led us to identify the people from -- from

16     this Petrovic video.

17        Q.   How was the book organised?

18        A.   The book itself, I mean, this Bosnian Muslim photo identification

19     book, has two parts.  One parts contains the identification -- the

20     pictures of the people identified by -- by us and who are -- at that time

21     were on the missing list, ICMP missing list, and altogether we were able

22     to identify 31 people, but only twenty -- not only, but only 7 of them

23     were survivors, and 24 at that time were at the ICMP list.

24        Q.   All right.  I'm not going to show you the whole book because it's

25     a little bit lengthy, but what you have in front of you, and I think you

Page 27375

 1     have a hard copy too, this is just four pages from the book, and if we

 2     can go to e-court page -- what would be 2, but first page of the book.

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I have -- in front of me I have a binder

 4     containing these five pages, but also in the binder I have some

 5     corroborating material, if I can use this.

 6        Q.   So -- and we'll talk about that in a second if you have to use

 7     it.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   But if you can open up the book.  And the page we have now, we

10     see a line of males walking.  And on -- and then we have three numbers -

11     1, 2, and 3.  Can you tell us what that indicates?

12        A.   Indicates the people identified by our witnesses.  And number 1,

13     you know, just we see the man with -- we named him.  We identified him

14     through our witnesses.  His name is Mehmedovic.  Number 2, we see the man

15     behind also with this red arrow.  We -- in fact, in this footage, this

16     still, we see only his -- his head, and his name is Ahmo Mehmedovic.  And

17     the third man, his name is Sevko Mujic, also identified by our witnesses.

18             But this is only the footage.  But if you -- we look at the

19     Petrovic video, we can see that this column of the men are moving towards

20     this road, and this is recordings from Potocari within -- I think this is

21     between -- around the location of the white house in Potocari.

22        Q.   And the information below each name, is that referring to the

23     interview that was conducted that led to the identification?

24        A.   Yes, this is correct.  Information below each name is -- this is

25     the name of the person who identified this particular man on the picture,

Page 27376

 1     and we are referring to the OTP interview conducted at that time.

 2        Q.   We can --

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I'm objecting to the

 4     introduction of statements by persons who the OTP have interviewed,

 5     including statements of identification, and I cite to the Trial Chamber

 6     the Appeals Chamber's decision on the admissibility of Prosecution

 7     investigator's evidence in the Slobodan Milosevic case on the

 8     20th of September, 2002.

 9             There -- we've referred to this decision several times before

10     this Trial Chamber, but essentially a Prosecution investigator by the

11     name of Barney Kelly purported to summarise information given to him by

12     OTP witnesses, and the Appeals -- the Trial Chamber and the Appeals

13     Chamber held that that was not permissible, that, in fact, circumvented

14     the requirements of Rule 92 bis which would have required that these

15     witnesses at a minimum statements be admitted be and certified before

16     they could be admitted, as opposed to being -- the information being

17     conveyed to the Chamber by an investigator.  And I think that this is a

18     similar situation and therefore I would ask that any evidence of the

19     identifications made by persons should be excluded.  Thank you.

20             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, perhaps I should have interrupted

21     earlier, but these interviews are already admitted in the case.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  So each of the witnesses that he's talking about,

23     they have been admitted under 92 bis?

24             MS. WEST:  Correct.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  Then I withdraw my objection.  Thank you.

Page 27377

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.

 2             MS. WEST:  If we can go to page 2, or the next page.

 3        Q.   Here we see two individuals.  Can you tell us about this still

 4     and where this was taken?  Two individuals, excuse me, who are

 5     identified.

 6        A.   Yeah.  Through our witnesses we identified these two persons.

 7     The number 1, this is Kasim Hafizovic, and number 2 is Senahid Hafizovic.

 8     They were identified by the members of the family.

 9        Q.   And where was that still taken?

10        A.   This still is taken also in -- near the white house in Potocari

11     on the 13 of July, 1995.

12             MS. WEST:  May we go to the next page.  This is ERN ending in

13     9765, page 3.

14        Q.   Where was this still taken?

15        A.   This -- this still is taken also on the same location in Potocari

16     near the white house in Potocari on the 13 of July, 1995.  And this

17     still, we have three person identified by the members of their families.

18     They are Bajram Malkic marked here as number 1; Betko Suljic, number 2;

19     and Mevludin Pasagic, number 3.

20             MS WEST:  May we turn to the last page, please.

21        Q.   What is the location of this still?

22        A.   This still has been captured in Sandici meadow on the

23     13 July 1995 afternoon-time, late afternoon-time.

24        Q.   And was the individual we see here identified?

25        A.   Yes.  This man is identified by his wife.  His name is

Page 27378

 1     Ramo Osmanovic.

 2             MS. WEST:  May we briefly go into private session.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

16             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I would tender 65 ter 03935A; it's a

17     small booklet.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.  That will be entered.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document will receive number P4909, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

22             MS. WEST:  I have no further questions.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Due to the rather odd timescale that's been

24     adopted today, what we propose is to sit from now until 11.45 and then

25     rise for 45 minutes until 12.30.  So if you'd like to bear that in mind,

Page 27379

 1     Dr. Karadzic.  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I finish -- well, perhaps I may

 3     finish by the break.  I would think that the Trial Chamber would not mind

 4     if that happened.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  I think you might be right about that,

 6     Dr. Karadzic.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Blaszczyk.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   Have I pronounced your surname correctly?

11        A.   Yes.  This is correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What I wanted to ask you is whether you were provided

13     with some sort of an explanation or, rather, was this one of the searches

14     of Mladic's house and not the first one by any means?

15        A.   No, it wasn't first search of this Mladic house.  I'm referring

16     to the search from 2010, February 2010.  I know that -- that there were

17     more searches, but at that time, as far as I know, the people from the

18     Serbian MUP, they were more concentrate on -- on -- on Ratko Mladic as a

19     person and just they were looking for him, but they didn't seize any

20     material, according to my knowledge.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Were you then told that that material was in Mladic

22     's house all the time but they didn't examine it or take it or they

23     didn't manage to find it at an earlier date?

24        A.   No, we didn't receive any confirmation that entire time.  The

25     material was in -- in this house, but -- but we got information from the

Page 27380

 1     Serbian authority that material was seized at this house on these

 2     particular dates.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Was there an explanation of any kind as to why the

 4     material was only seized in 2010 and not earlier on when numerous

 5     searches were conducted?

 6        A.   As I said, you know, just explanation of the Serbian side was

 7     that they were more concentrate of the Ratko Mladic, to find him, than on

 8     the material from his house.  Later on in 2008, they concentrated on

 9     the -- also on the material, wartime material.  They seized this

10     material.  They handed over this material to us.  At that time, as I

11     testified already in August last year, they didn't find some notebooks of

12     Ratko Mladic because according to them the notebooks were hidden

13     somewhere in his house.  As far as I remember, some of those notebooks

14     were seized during the second search on the attic of bathroom of this

15     apartment, this house.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know for certain that the Serbian authorities

17     handed over everything that they seized?

18        A.   The Serbian authorities handed over the material we requested

19     from them.  At the beginning we received the information what was seized

20     during these two searches, and based on that -- that -- this information

21     and after reviewing the material, we requested these, the originals.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that there was material that was

23     found, material that you had not, in fact, searched for or requested?

24        A.   There -- there was also some material not relevant to any case

25     to -- to ICTY job.  For example, the material from the firm of son of

Page 27381

 1     Ratko Mladic, Darko Mladic, from 2000 years [sic], and not relevant to

 2     any ICTY cases.  We didn't request to have the originals of this material

 3     at all.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could there have been something there that might have

 5     been of interest to the Defence?

 6             MS. WEST:  Objection.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  That's so speculative, Dr. Karadzic, it's

 8     virtually incapable of being answered.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  In that case, I'll be

10     more concrete.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Who decided about what was relevant, and who's position was, in

13     fact, expressed in this manner?  It was the Prosecution's position, was

14     it not?

15        A.   I was involved in some extent in this project.  I -- I -- in

16     this -- I, personally, during the first search, I checked the material

17     physically.  I see this material before we requested the authority to

18     hand it over, this material, to us.  And yeah, there were investigators,

19     mostly investigators who decided that the material is relevant to the

20     ICTY cases.  If we are talking about the originals.  But, Your Honours, I

21     would like to point out also that first we received the scanned version

22     of the material, everything what was seized during these two searches.

23     This scanned material of the materials, not originals, were also handed

24     over to the Defence, if you are talking about whether any material was

25     kept.  It means that we may not have the original, some of the material,

Page 27382

 1     but definitely this -- the copy of this material, whatever document it

 2     was, is on the scanned version also handed over to the Defence.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  The material that you thought was irrelevant to the

 4     Tribunal, was that material also provided?  Was it also provided to the

 5     Defence?

 6        A.   I believe entire material, we receive first as a copy of the

 7     material, in fact, not originals, we handed over to the Defence.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you exclude the possibility that the Serbian

 9     authorities added certain material?

10        A.   The seizure of this material, it was the process -- process done

11     by the Serbian MUP and then by Prosecution office in Serbia, and material

12     seized by them from the Ratko Mladic house was confirm as seized from

13     this house by the members of the family of Ratko Mladic, by his wife and

14     by his son.

15        Q.   And how is it that you excluded the possibility that the material

16     was amended in some way or that certain material was added?

17        A.   We have no such indication that this material was alterated [sic]

18     in some way.

19        Q.   And that is the reason for which you didn't even attempt to check

20     this; is that correct?

21        A.   Your Honour, we reviewed this entire material.  We reviewed each

22     document from this -- this collection, I would say Mladic collection, and

23     we didn't find any indication that this material was altered or false.

24        Q.   Did the Serbian authorities carry out the analysis that you have

25     mentioned, or was this someone else's responsibility?  Did someone else

Page 27383

 1     do that?

 2        A.   I mentioned our analyst.  I am not referring to the Serbian

 3     analyst or information we -- for example, the document we seen before, a

 4     few minutes ago, on the screen, the Serbian report, but I am referring to

 5     our analyst.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at P4484

 8     again.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   While waiting for it to come up:  Mr. Blaszczyk, what explanation

11     can be provided for my conversation with General Zivanovic, or, rather, a

12     record of my conversation with General Zivanovic, being found in

13     General Mladic's house?

14        A.   I believe I said that we have some assumption why -- why it

15     happened and what happened exactly, according to our information, but it

16     has not been so far proved, but we believe this is -- this is the reason

17     that some conversations or telephone conversation -- conversation

18     conducted from the Main Staff were recorded by the security branch of the

19     Main Staff of Republika Srpska.  And, of course, General Mladic as the

20     commander of the Army of Republika Srpska has access to these documents.

21        Q.   So you want to say that my own army was wiretapping me in

22     addition to all the other devils that were wiretapping my conversations?

23        A.   I would like to say that this conversation seized or these tapes

24     with conversations seized at the Ratko Mladic house we believe that

25     were -- was recorded by the security branch of Army of Republika Srpska,

Page 27384

 1     including you in conversation.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, do you have some knowledge of the Serbian

 3     language?  I assume that you do.

 4        A.   I can communicate in Serbian language.  I can understand.

 5        Q.   Could I ask you to have a look at the footnotes in the Serbian

 6     version.  Who wrote the footnotes?  I'll read out the first one.

 7     Number 5 says:  It's possible that Svetlana (on the basis of the tone of

 8     her voice), it's possible that Svetlana is speaking.  "On the basis of

 9     the tone of her voice" in brackets.  And number 6, an unidentified

10     Speaker B:  It's possible that it's Karadzic, given the tone of his

11     voice, the sound of his voice, and his interlocutor called him

12     "President."

13             Who wrote these footnotes?

14        A.   The transcripts were done by the members of OTP here, by the

15     interpreters who reviewed the tapes itself, who made the transcripts, and

16     they made -- they put also some comments here in these transcripts.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Have a look at the English version, please, the

18     penultimate line.  "Tell me, will it continue tomorrow?"  Does this sound

19     like an order to you or like a question?

20        A.   Yeah, it looks, for me, that this is a question.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page in the

23     English version.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Does the English version also have these footnotes?

Page 27385

 1        A.   I don't see here, at least not this version, but I believe we

 2     have the version also English one with these footnotes.  But I'm not --

 3     pretty sure.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us why we have an unidentified Speaker A

 5     and an unidentified Speaker B in the Serbian version, whereas in the

 6     English version their identities are known, and we have the initials RK

 7     and MZ?  So how can an unidentified speaker suddenly be identified as RK?

 8        A.   As I said, Your Honour, because we had quite big amount of the

 9     tapes, the conversation recorded on the tapes.  The tapes were reviewed

10     by our -- our people, and if one people were -- one man was -- or

11     woman interpreter was familiar with the voice of, for example,

12     General Zivanovic or Mr. Karadzic, they could recognise the voices.  If

13     not, they could put some comments.  And later on, probably another person

14     will review this again and again and another review this again.  Whether

15     they have any indication who -- who is talking on the tape, they could

16     put the correct name.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, how long do you think you'll --

18     you'll need now?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two or three minutes,

20     Your Excellency.  Perhaps even less.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So, Mr. Blaszczyk, can we expect a literal translation of this

23     transcript to be admitted into evidence, a translation that includes

24     these footnotes?

25             MS. WEST:  Objection.  I don't know how he could answer that.

Page 27386

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  That seems to be a difficult one for this

 2     witness, Dr. Karadzic.  If you want such a thing, a request in writing to

 3     the Office of the Prosecutor might be more productive.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would do that, but the

 5     witness said that he believes that there are literal translations, so I

 6     thought it was up to him to hand them over to the Prosecution, but very

 7     well.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   My last question, Mr. Blaszczyk:  If you could now repeat these

10     actions that were undertaken, is there anything you would do differently?

11     And, if so, what?  And that concerns the Serbian authorities and the

12     contact -- or, rather, interaction that the Prosecution had with the

13     Serbian authorities.

14        A.   I am not sure whether I understood -- fully understood your

15     question.  Could you rephrase your question, please?

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was there anything you were unhappy about, anything

17     you would have done differently, anything you were unhappy about with

18     regard to the attitude the Serbian authorities had towards those searches

19     and with regard to the entire exchange you were involved in?

20        A.   I believe, and this is my opinion, that the Serbian authorities'

21     co-operation with these two searches with ICTY was excellent, was very

22     good.  In regards with these two searches.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.  I have

24     no further questions.

25             MS. WEST:  Which -- just a moment, Your Honour, it would just

Page 27387

 1     take me a second.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

 3                           Re-examination by Ms. West:

 4        Q.   Sir, you were asked about these identified people - you'll see on

 5     the left-hand side of the screen you have the B/C/S A and B - where we

 6     see that, it starts at two minutes and goes to 2.41, is that the same

 7     conversation of the transcript in English on the right?  Or is that an

 8     earlier conversation?

 9        A.   This is earlier conversation I see here.

10        Q.   Okay.  So we're not talking about -- it's not -- it's ...

11        A.   Yes.  Yes, I -- just right now I noticed that this is

12     conversation when -- starting at two minutes.  This is the conversation

13     recorded of the same tape, but this is different conversation.  Also,

14     unknown person are talking about it, and this -- yeah, and the English

15     translation is also related to the conversation of General Zivanovic with

16     Mr. Karadzic.

17        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to listen to this conversation

18     yourself?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   Did you recognise any of the voices?

21        A.   Yes, I did.  I recognised the voice of Mr. Karadzic and also I am

22     quite familiar with the voice of General Zivanovic.  I recognised

23     General Zivanovic's voice.  I met him several times.

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  [Microphone not activated]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's just one matter I would

Page 27388

 1     like to clarify, with your leave.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

 3                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Blaskic, at the beginning of the

 5     conversation, at 2.42, Speaker B is said to be unidentified, but in

 6     brackets it says "Karadzic."  Is that the case?  And then there's a

 7     footnote that relates to that part.

 8        A.   Yes, this is correct, but I tried to explain that a few people

 9     are not very familiar with your voice, for example, and this tape was

10     reviewed by many of our interpreters also coming from this region, from

11     Republika Srpska, and by investigations who are familiar with the voices

12     also, and this is why we came to the conclusion that this is

13     Mr. Karadzic's voice and I am sure that this is also General Zivanovic

14     voice.  Having met him several times.  Also I talked to him on the phone.

15        Q.   Thank you.  It seems that there were very few people who didn't

16     intercept my conversations.  Everyone was listening to my conversations.

17             Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you very much for your evidence.  That

19     concludes your participation today, and have a safe journey home.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

22             Well, any other matters that we can usefully deal with?

23             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe so at this moment, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 27389

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  In that case, we'll rise for today, and we will

 2     sit again tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.  Thank you.

 3             Oh, I meant to say thank you for the indulgence of the staff

 4     yesterday, and thank you very much for the technical support and

 5     indulgence for today, bearing in mind the early start.  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.59 a.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day

 9                           of April, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.