Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29625

 1                           Monday, 5 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  All of a sudden it looks

 7     strange in a different courtroom.

 8             Yes, if the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  MOMIR GARIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

14             I hope you are feeling okay today, Mr. Garic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the volume could be put up a

16     little bit so that I can hear the interpretation more easily, just a

17     little bit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder if you could follow the interpreter's

19     request.  Could you turn up the volume a bit.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This was the witness's

21     request.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything is fine now.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellency.

Page 29626

 1     Good morning to everyone.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Garic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D6079, please.  We

 5     have the English translation too.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Garic, please have a look at this document.  Did you give the

 8     Defence team a statement, and is the statement on the screen in front of

 9     you in fact the statement that you gave?

10        A.   Yes, that's the statement.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Have you signed this statement?

12        A.   Yes, I signed the statement on the 2nd of November, so I signed

13     the statement on Friday.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Is the statement correct?  Does it accurately reflect

15     what you wanted to say?

16        A.   Well, I did my best to make it as accurate and reliable as

17     possible.  I drafted this statement to the best of my recollection.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If I put the same questions to you today, the

19     questions contained -- would your answers be the same as those contained

20     in the statement?

21        A.   Yes, the substance of my answers would be the same, perhaps not

22     word for word but the substance would be the same.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, could I tender

25     this statement into evidence?

Page 29627

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2379, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the documents also be

 6     admitted.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  How many documents are you tendering, Mr. Karadzic?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we're tendering four documents

 9     which --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Were they on the 65 ter list previously,

11     Mr. Robinson?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, Mr. President, they were but under a

13     different number.  There had been some miscommunication between our

14     investigators and case managers and they uploaded the statements under

15     different 1D number which was in fact on the 65 ter list.  And we now

16     switched it back so that it's the correct number, but that number doesn't

17     appear on our 65 ter list.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So four of them are on the 65 ter list all?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  They're on the 65 ter list but under a different

20     number, yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Can I ask one question about 1D10010, probably its

22     65 ter name is different on your list.  It's a city map marked by the

23     witness of his family home.  How is this relevant?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it's simply put in there for background

25     information, but if you don't believe it's relevant or an integral part

Page 29628

 1     of the statement then we don't have to have that received.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will not admit this.  In relation to

 3     other three documents, are there any objections, Ms. Gustafson?

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So three items excluding the city map marked by the

 6     witness will be admitted into evidence.

 7             Shall we give the number right now.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 1D10011 will be

 9     Exhibit D2380, 65 ter 1D10012 will be Exhibit D2381, and 65 ter 1D10035

10     will be Exhibit D2382.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read out a

14     summary of Mr. Momir Garic's testimony in English.

15             [In English] Momir Garic completed electo-technical school and

16     then a degree on All People's Defence at the faculty of

17     political sciences in Sarajevo.  He did a shortened programme of military

18     service in the Koprivnica Garrison of the JNA lasting for four months and

19     30 days.  In 1985 he started working in the Territorial Defence staff in

20     Novo Sarajevo, where he remained until March the 1st, 1992.  The TO

21     staffs commanded two types of the Territorial Defence units, area and

22     manoeuvre units.  The area units were organised by local communities and

23     local organisations or enterprises.  There were a number of big

24     enterprises in the territory of Novo Sarajevo municipality which had

25     numerically strong and well-armed Territorial Defence units, buying the

Page 29629

 1     most modern weapons and equipment in the Yugoslav market, very often even

 2     before the JNA units.

 3             During the first half of 1991 [sic] he learned about the

 4     organising of Muslim paramilitary forces.  People who had no connections

 5     with the Territorial Defence started to visit its commander very often,

 6     who was -- the commander was Muslim.  These people were well-known Muslim

 7     extremists and violent people that he knew from the town.  In Pofalici he

 8     often saw people wearing green berets, many of which he knew to had been

 9     in conflict with the law, that is, had a criminal past.  After the murder

10     of Nikola Gardovic on March the 1st, 1992, citizens started to organise

11     watches in their buildings, suburbs, and urban areas.  This was not a

12     nationally exclusive organising, but rather organising of citizens

13     regardless of the ethnicity.

14             On April the 4th, 1992, Serbian members of the MUP special units

15     set off for their new bases in the MUP school in Vraca which they had

16     been allocated in an agreement on the partition of the MUP, common MUP.

17     Instead of peacefully entering the new bases, the Serbian specials were

18     ambushed by the Muslim colleagues and two of them were killed.  On the

19     6th of April, 1992, under the pretext of celebrating the day that

20     Sarajevo had been liberated in World War II, the Muslim authorities

21     organised a big public rally.  Muslim snipers fired at the crowd from the

22     surrounding tall buildings and they immediately blamed it on the Serbs.

23             When the war started at the beginning of April 1992, the

24     Territorial Defence staff in the Sarajevo municipalities where Serbs

25     lived were mobilised and they took it upon themselves to defend the

Page 29630

 1     people from attacks by Muslim extremists, because the JNA was already

 2     falling apart and could not provide any guarantee in this respect.  Since

 3     Momir Garic had previously worked in the Territorial Defence matter, he

 4     was assigned as one of the supervisors in the Territorial Defence staff

 5     which operated in the part of the Serbian part of Novo Sarajevo

 6     municipality.

 7             They organised a unit of the Territorial Defence members from the

 8     Serbian part of Novo Sarajevo municipality.  It was an organised group of

 9     citizens that set up a line of defence of the Serbian suburbs that ran in

10     front of houses, suburbs, and streets with a mainly Serbian population.

11     There was not a single instance in which the Serbs attacked a suburb with

12     a Muslim majority.  These initial lines of separation remained at the --

13     the same throughout the war.

14             During the middle of May, 1992, in order to protect the Serbian

15     majority population of Grbavica, the JNA [sic] launched an action to move

16     the lines on the left bank of Miljacka river and gain control of

17     Grbavica.  This was a typical combat action.  Yet since Grbavica was not

18     held by anyone the action was completed by a movement of Serbian forces

19     with minimal use of weapons.  The line established remained unchanged

20     until the end of the war.

21             From the beginning Muslim snipers fired at Serbian territory and

22     a large number of members of the Serbian Territorial Defence were killed,

23     but the number of civilian victims was particularly large.  Momir Garic

24     knows about the position of the forces ranged against them as well as in

25     the depth of the territory and on dominant heights around the city, such

Page 29631

 1     as Igman, Bjelasnica, but also in the city on Hum hill, Mojmilo hill,

 2     Zlatiste, Colina Kapa, Jajce barracks, among others.  Muslim armed

 3     provocations occurred on a daily basis until the beginning of May 1992.

 4     On the 2nd and 3rd May of 1992, Muslim forces launched heavy attacks on

 5     JNA units in Skenderija and Dobrovoljacka Street in which several dozen

 6     JNA members were killed, many more injured and several hundred taken

 7     prisoners.

 8             Between 4th and 6th May, 1992, the JNA's 216th Mountain Brigade

 9     arrived in Novo Sarajevo municipality with the task to safe-guarding the

10     withdrawal of the remaining units from Sarajevo and preventing an

11     escalation of conflict.  As the brigade was short of personnel, units of

12     the Serbian Territorial Defence from Novo Sarajevo joined its ranks,

13     resulting in the establishment of the 3rd Battalion.  Momir Garic was

14     member of that battalion until 11th or 12th September, 1992, when he

15     started working in the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.  On

16     16th of May, 1992, Muslim forces launched a powerful attack on Pofalici.

17     Many civilians were killed and some of them are still missing 20 years

18     later.  According to Momir Garic the strategy and the operational goals

19     of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was to prevent the Army of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina from breaking into the Serbian territories, which would have

21     been fatal for the Serbian population.  This breakthrough of the

22     1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina would have had a huge

23     effect on the development of the situation, on other fronts, and the

24     whole course of the war in BH.

25             His unit fired at the enemy only in defence and did not intend to

Page 29632

 1     cause civilian casualties or terrorise civilians.  They were aware of the

 2     provisions of the international humanitarian law and respected those

 3     rules.  They never received orders from a superior command or civilian

 4     authorities to attack means of public transportation.  They were clearly

 5     informed of the location of military targets and kept strictly to that.

 6     He knows that Muslim forces misused civilian facilities for military

 7     purposes.

 8             The officers and men in his unit were drawn from the local

 9     population and had already learned basic military skills while serving in

10     the JNA.  There were also younger people who had no military experience.

11     From its composition it can easily be concluded that it was a people's

12     army which was primarily defending its own homes and was very reluctant

13     to move away from there.

14             The general position of the Serbian civilian and military

15     authorities was to allow the passage of supplies of humanitarian aid to

16     civilians in the part of the town controlled by the Muslim authorities.

17     The Serbian forces never brought into question regular supplies of

18     humanitarian aid, least of all with the aim of achieving any military

19     goal.  Momir Garic knows that Muslim forces misused humanitarian convoys

20     to smuggle weapons and ammunition and that they also used the Red Cross

21     sign to mark military vehicles and military commands.  He also knows that

22     Muslims did not allow Serbs and other inhabitants to leave the city.

23             And I have one correction.  The 216th Brigade came in Sarajevo by

24     middle of April, not in May, beginning of the May.

25             [Interpretation] That would be all for the moment.  For the time

Page 29633

 1     being I have no questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Garic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief

 3     was admitted in writing, in the form of a statement, in lieu of your oral

 4     testimony.  And you will be now cross-examined by the Prosecution.

 5             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Before we commence, we

 7     think it is probably prudent to provide this witness with a caution under

 8     Rule 90(E).  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Probably I discussed with Mr. Tieger this before.

10     If Prosecution is of the view such warning is warranted, please tell us,

11     the Chamber, before the witness starts his evidence.

12             Mr. Garic, before you start your -- answering the questions by

13     the Prosecution, I wanted to let you know the specific Rule in the

14     Tribunal which says to the effect that you may object to the -- to

15     answering any question that might tend to incriminate you.  However, in

16     such case, the Chamber may compel you to answer such questions; but in

17     that case, your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as

18     evidence in subsequent proceedings against you for any offence other than

19     false testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

20             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Garic.

Page 29634

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 1D26007, please.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, in your Defence statement, the one that's just

 3     been admitted as your evidence at paragraph 28 on page 6, you explained

 4     that you had been shown the transcript of the statement you gave to the

 5     Prosecution in 2004 and you said you had no corrections to make to that

 6     transcript except for a few clerical errors that you specified in that

 7     paragraph.  And we can see now the first page of that -- of the

 8     transcript of that statement you gave to the Prosecution is on the

 9     screen.  So I take it from what you said in your Defence statement that

10     with these corrections you've made you agree that the statement you gave

11     to the Prosecution in 2004 is true and accurate to the best of your

12     knowledge; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, that was in 2004, but on Friday when you allowed me a little

14     extra time I was told that he was an investigator from

15     The Hague Tribunal, but I discovered he was from the Prosecution.  He

16     promised that he would provide me with all the recordings, the CDs, so I

17     could see what it was about, but that was never done.  And not long ago I

18     received them and I read through this statement on that occasion from

19     2004.  I didn't have enough time to read through it thoroughly, but in

20     substance, yes, that is what it is.  There's nothing much that should be

21     changed or amended.

22        Q.   Okay.  And if you were asked today in court the same questions

23     you were asked when you gave that interview, would you give the Court the

24     same answers - and not necessarily word for word but in substance the

25     same?

Page 29635

 1        A.   Well, in essence, yes.  Quite a long time has passed since then,

 2     eight years after all, but basically, yes, my answers would be the same.

 3     Perhaps not word for word, but the substance would not change.  That's

 4     one thing.  But secondly, the Defence team did not prepare a statement

 5     for me as you've said.  I gave that statement.  There are perhaps minor

 6     amendments that were made that don't change anything much.  So this is my

 7     statement, not the Defence team's statement.  And also when you mentioned

 8     the fact that the witness should be cautioned or warned, what sort of

 9     caution did you have in mind?  Could you perhaps clarify this for me?

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Perhaps Your Honours would like to clarify the --

11     the witness has asked about the caution.  Perhaps he didn't understand

12     fully.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Witness, the caution that the Prosecution

14     referred to is the one that Judge Kwon gave you, which you said you

15     understood.  There's no separate caution.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, maybe I misunderstood, Your Honours.

17     Thank you.

18             On the basis of the witness's answers, I'd like to tender this

19     interview.  Thank you.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we would object to that.  I

21     don't think that 92 ter necessarily encompasses another party other than

22     the party calling the witness introducing a statement wholesale.  So

23     absent any -- if there's extensive reference to the statement, maybe at

24     some stage we could admit it, but at this stage I don't think it should

25     just come in.  I point out the text of the Rule 92 ter (A)(ii) has a

Page 29636

 1     condition that the witness is available for cross-examination.  So I

 2     think that this was intended for use as an admission by the party calling

 3     the witness.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Before coming -- before we deal with this,

 5     Ms. Gustafson, you referred to paragraph 28 of his statement?

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour, and I said paragraph 28,

 7     page 6, because there seems to be typographical error I think when this

 8     statement was amended.  So there are two paragraph 28s.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Can we upload that first -- oh, the paragraph 28,

10     that appears after para 33, the last paragraph?

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's the one, yes, thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Here he said:

13             "I have been shown the transcript.  I have no corrections to make

14     to that -- to the translation of the interview."

15             And what is your basis to object to the admission of such

16     document?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Well, Mr. President, it's being offered

18     under 92 ter and it's our position that Rule 92 ter applies to the

19     calling party and not to the cross-examining party.  And in support of

20     that, I'm calling your attention to 92 ter(A)(ii) which has as a

21     requirement that the witness is available for cross-examination.  And to

22     me, that -- since we don't have the right to -- of cross-examination,

23     that means that a 92 ter statement is one offered by the calling party

24     only.  And I've also pointed that if the document has value for

25     impeachment purposes to such an extent that the admission of the entire

Page 29637

 1     interview seems warranted by the Chamber, at that stage it may very well

 2     be admissible, but I don't think it's admissible in the way it's being

 3     offered now.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But what's the point of referring to his earlier

 5     statement in your 92 ter statement at all?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, I believe that the investigator who took

 7     that statement was under the impression that it might be an associated

 8     exhibit, but we've decided we didn't want it to be an associated exhibit

 9     and therefore we haven't offered it under -- as an associated exhibit.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But why did you include that passage at all?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Again, I believe that passage was included by the

12     investigator that took the original statement under the impression that

13     perhaps that statement could be an associated exhibit to the 92 ter

14     package, but we decided that it was not appropriate for a statement to be

15     an associated exhibit because you've directed that the 92 statement be a

16     single document, not a compilation of the witness's prior statements.  So

17     we essentially have adopted a practice here in The Hague when we see a

18     statement taken by one of our investigators that refers to a previous

19     statement, we don't make it an associated exhibit.  And that was our

20     reasoning for not including it as an associated exhibit although it's

21     referred to in the statement.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, Your Honours, I think this is basically an

24     issue of form over substance.  The witness -- this is the document we

25     have, it's available.  It could certainly be tendered as a regular

Page 29638

 1     exhibit.  The witness has agreed, however, to the steps under

 2     Rule 92 ter, so there's no reason why it shouldn't be admitted under that

 3     rule.  And there is -- there are helpful details in the statement about,

 4     for example, documents that have already been admitted into evidence.  I

 5     may also be relying on certain extracts from the interview depending on

 6     the witness's answers today.  So it's an -- obviously an admissible

 7     document.  It's relevant.  It's probative.  The witness has authenticated

 8     it.  Call it what you will, Rule 92 ter or just under the regular Rules

 9     of admission; however, the witness has agreed to the 92 ter steps.  So I

10     don't see a problem with it going in under that rule.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I haven't read this -- the investigation -- how do

12     you call it?  This is a transcript of the investigation interview.  I

13     haven't read it.  But I'm speaking for myself and I'm speaking sort of

14     hypothetically.  If the current 92 ter statement has been revised to such

15     an extent that would warrant asking the witness to testify viva voce to

16     clearly understand, it is for you to raise that issue beforehand.  I hope

17     you would have followed.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I don't think that -- that

19     is not an issue here.  I'm not -- I'm not relying on the interview for

20     that purpose specifically.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Then could you specifically tell us the point of

22     tendering this interview in more concrete terms.  If necessary, we can

23     ask the witness to be excused.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Perhaps that would be a good idea or if the

25     witness doesn't understand English he could just remove his headphones.

Page 29639

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That's a good idea.

 2             Yes, Mr. Garic, do you understand English?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some, but in principle I would say

 4     no.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's okay.  Could you kindly take off your

 6     headphones for a while while we are discussing the matter.

 7             Yes.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, Your Honour, there are two points

 9     basically.  The first is that there is positive evidence that this

10     witness provided in his OTP interview, including details about persons

11     present in Prosecution documents that have been admitted, and I refer,

12     for example, to P2583, which are Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff meeting

13     minutes discussed at pages 47 to 52 of the interview; and another

14     Crisis Staff document P2575, discussed at pages 29 to 40 of the

15     interview.  The other issue is that in his earlier interview with the

16     Prosecution, he was played a number of intercepts in which he was

17     purported to be one of the participants.  I intend to use some of those

18     intercepts as well as other intercepts we have relating to this witness,

19     and depending on his answers today I may be relying on portions of his

20     interview.  So those are the two basic reasons for tendering the

21     interview.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Then why don't you tender only those parts that

23     covers those topics?

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's fine as well.  We can -- once the

25     witness's evidence is concluded, we can identify the relevant extracts

Page 29640

 1     and tender extracts from the interview.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, do you object to that exercise?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, yes, I do, Mr. President.  I think that

 4     it ought to be put to the witness if there's some inconsistency between

 5     his statement and what he testifies to in court today.  I don't think it

 6     should be left for later without the witness being here and given an

 7     opportunity to explain any inconsistency.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The witness confirmed the veracity of his interview

 9     in general terms in [indiscernible].  So what's the basis of not

10     admitting that part?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Because if it's being used for impeachment which

12     is what she's identified, then it's only fair to the witness, and for it

13     to have any probative value as impeachment it has to be put to the

14     witness, and that's a cardinal rule that we've been following in terms of

15     the probative value of documents which are used for impeachment or to

16     contradict the witness.  The witness has to be given a chance to comment

17     on it.  So to just admit it at the end without giving the witness a

18     chance to comment on it I don't believe is fair to the witness or to the

19     Defence.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  This is the Chamber's position:  If you read the

22     28th -- actually, para 34 of his statement without reading the content of

23     the statement you cannot understand what he's saying here about.  So in

24     that case, that may be classified as, in general terms, one of the

25     associated exhibits.  But having known the Prosecution is minded to use

Page 29641

 1     that part of -- or, the part of the statement in order to contradict the

 2     witness's statement, it is necessary to put specific parts of the

 3     statement to the witness.  However, in this -- in the future if similar

 4     situation arises, the Chamber may consider ordering the Defence to lead

 5     the witness viva voce from -- at the outset.

 6             Let's continue, Ms. Gustafson.

 7             [Interpretation] Thank you.  [In English] I hope you understood.

 8             Yes, let's continue.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Thank you for your patience, Mr. Garic.  I'd just like to ask you

11     a few questions about the first meeting you had with -- or the meeting

12     you had with the Defence in the summer of this year, where your -- you

13     gave the Defence a statement and we were provided with a draft statement

14     on the basis of that meeting.  And I'd just like to ask you a few

15     questions about that interview and meeting that you had with the Defence.

16             First, how was the meeting conducted?  Was your statement audio

17     or video recorded?

18        A.   I have not been receiving interpretation at all.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Are you hearing anything?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No interpretation at all.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Now do you hear me, Mr. Garic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I do.  Now it's fine.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let's try again, Ms. Gustafson.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

25        Q.   And thank you again, Mr. Garic, for your patience.  I'd like to

Page 29642

 1     start by asking you some questions about the meeting you had with the

 2     Defence I believe in the summer of this year.  I understand that you

 3     provided the Defence with a statement and we were given a draft statement

 4     on the basis of that meeting.  And I'd like to ask you whether that

 5     interview that you had with the Defence, whether it was audio or video

 6     recorded?

 7        A.   Are you asking me about what happened this year, this current

 8     year, last summer?

 9        Q.   Yes, that's right.

10        A.   As a matter of fact, I did not talk with the Defence.  I spoke to

11     a man who organises witnesses who are supposed to come here to The Hague

12     to testify.  I provided my statement in east Sarajevo.  We had a couple

13     of telephone conversations and nothing was recorded.  My statement was

14     taken in writing.  I read it.  I made some changes.  I supplemented it.

15     Because at the moment when I provided the statement, I simply could not

16     remember some things.  So at the end of the day I wouldn't say that I

17     changed much or anything in that statement of mine.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you a few follow-up questions from that.  You

19     said you spoke to a man who organises witnesses.  What was his name?

20        A.   His name is Milomir Savcic.

21        Q.   And you said:

22             "We had a couple of telephone conversations and nothing was

23     recorded.  My statement was taken in writing.  I read it."

24             I'm still a little confused.  Did you simply speak with

25     Mr. Savcic by telephone or did you actually meet in person?

Page 29643

 1        A.   I have already told you that I met him in person once.  That's

 2     when my statement was recorded, and then we spoke on a couple of

 3     occasions by phone and that was it.  I saw him personally once.  That's

 4     when the statement was taken, and then we had a couple of telephone

 5     contacts.

 6        Q.   And how was that statement recorded?  Was it recorded by an audio

 7     or video device?

 8        A.   No.  There was neither an audio or video device.  I told him what

 9     I remembered.  That was taken down, and that's what you have here.

10     That's what was sent here.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that in the transcript

12     it says it was recorded, but that doesn't mean that there was audio or

13     video involved.  The witness said that the minutes of his words were

14     taken.  He did not use the word "recorded."

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I said.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I think the witness said an interpret -- which was

17     interpreted as what -- "I told him what I remembered.  That was taken

18     down ..."  Now, I think that meant the same thing.

19             Shall we proceed.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, thank you.

21        Q.   So basically, Mr. Garic, what I'm getting at is I'd just like to

22     understand how some of the changes that we saw to your statement came

23     about and how the erroneous information got into the draft statement

24     based on your meeting with Mr. Savcic.  And in particular, the draft we

25     received based on your meeting with Mr. Savcic had several references to

Page 29644

 1     you being either a supervisor in the TO or a battalion -- and a battalion

 2     commander in the VRS.  And now I understand since you've arrived in

 3     The Hague those references have been removed and you insist that you were

 4     not a commander.

 5             So did you initially tell Mr. Savcic you were a commander and

 6     then you later realised that was incorrect or was that a mistake that

 7     Mr. Savcic made in recording your statement?

 8        A.   We had the conversation in east Sarajevo, and after that

 9     Mr. Savcic took notes based on the questions he asked me and the answers

10     I provided to those questions.  I did not correct things in The Hague

11     because I did not get to see that written statement that Mr. Savcic sent

12     here.  When I arrived here, I reviewed those things.  I said that I was

13     involved in the organisation of defence of the Serbian people because I

14     was professionally involved in the Assembly of Novo Sarajevo municipality

15     in the Territorial Defence staff.  And before the arrival of JNA units,

16     before the Army of Republika Srpska was set up, there was no system of

17     subordination in place --

18        Q.   Mr. Garic, I'm going to interrupt you.  I'm sorry.  We'll get

19     into the substance of your evidence in a moment.  Right now my question

20     is quite a simple one:  Did you tell Mr. Savcic you were a commander or

21     is that a mistake he made in recording your statement?

22        A.   He didn't even ask me whether I was a commander or not.  I

23     believe that that would -- that that was Mr. Savcic's mistake.  He should

24     not have written that down because at that time there were no

25     appointments.

Page 29645

 1        Q.   Well, there were two references to you being a battalion

 2     commander in the VRS at a time when there were appointments quite

 3     clearly.  So again, do you have any idea how those two references to you

 4     being a battalion commander in the VRS got into your initial draft

 5     statement?

 6        A.   I've just told you, I'll repeat.  I was involved in the

 7     Territorial Defence staff as a reserve officer, a professional, and when

 8     the unrest broke out I was a member of the Territorial Defence staff --

 9        Q.   I'm sorry --

10        A.   -- I was doing my job and I am sure that you will ask me

11     questions about -- in other words, I didn't have --

12        Q.   Sorry to interrupt you again.  I don't believe you've answered my

13     question, but in the interests of time I'm going to move on.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we have 65 ter 23959, please.

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, the map that's going to appear on your screen in

16     a moment, it's a higher-resolution version, in fact, of the map that you

17     drew for the Defence in connection with your interview.  And it's

18     referenced in paragraph 13 as 1D10035.  And at paragraph 13 of your

19     statement that's now in evidence you described your line of defence in

20     April 1992 as stretching from the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks below

21     Mojmilo hill and by Ozrenska Street in Vraca and the Sarajevo bypass to

22     the Jewish cemetery and then towards Zlatiste and the road to Trebevic.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could zoom in on the red line that's

24     drawn in this map which is right around in the middle of the statement --

25     sorry, the map.  And a little bit more and zooming in on the area where

Page 29646

 1     it says "Novi Grad."  So a little bit to the left.  That's perfect.

 2        Q.   Now, this is a line that you drew, Mr. Garic, your line of

 3     defence in April 1992.  And the street names have changed since then in

 4     relation to this map, but your line basically goes along Ozrenska Street

 5     towards Novi Grad and it includes Mojmilo hill within your line.  You see

 6     Mojmilo hill there with the number 680 approximately in the middle of the

 7     map?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I see the line.

 9        Q.   Right --

10        A.   But the Serbian people did not defend itself on Mojmilo but below

11     the Mojmilo hill, at its foot towards Lukavica.  On Mojmilo there were

12     paramilitary Muslim forces that already in 1991, or, towards the end of

13     1991 held their positions there.  So the Serbian guards that had been

14     organised by the Serbian people were at the foot of Mojmilo, not on

15     Mojmilo.  That's how I would put it.

16        Q.   Okay.  Well, the Chamber has heard evidence - and I would refer

17     to Van Lynden's evidence at T2414 - that the Bosnian Serbs initially at

18     the early stages of the war held Mojmilo hill and it was taken by the

19     Bosnian Muslim forces sometime not long after that.  So the line you've

20     drawn here is consistent with evidence this Chamber has received, at

21     least in relation to this time-period.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could look at D572 now.  And if I could

23     tender this map as well, please.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be invited

25     to explain his previous claim.

Page 29647

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I --

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Your last comment was not put to the witness.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I'm actually moving -- I'm on the

 5     same topic.  I'm move to a document.  I'll continue discussing this very

 6     issue with the witness in relation to the next document.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But -- and you said you're tendering this document?

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Was it not admitted as one of the Defence exhibits?

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It was not listed on the revised 92 ter

11     notification that we received on Friday, I believe.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  I believe it's the fourth document that was

13     admitted --

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And in any event I'd like to tender it anyway

15     because the one that the Defence uploaded is basically illegible because

16     it's not sufficiently -- there isn't sufficient resolution.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Let me check.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit this.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5955, Your Honours.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry, and it was my mistake --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be heard on something, I

23     have a proposal to make.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be asked

Page 29648

 1     to specify the temporal aspect of the map because it is indeed --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- through that both Mojmilo and

 4     the waterworks were held by the JNA at one point in time --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I'm cutting you here.  It is a subject you may take

 6     up in your re-examination.

 7             Yes, let's continue.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  And in connection with the comments

 9     that Mr. Karadzic has just made if we could look now at D572 which is an

10     SRK report from the 26th of May, 1992.

11        Q.   Mr. Garic, there was water-supply system on Mojmilo hill; is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes, there was a water-supply system on Mojmilo hill; right.

14        Q.   So if we could look at the second paragraph of point 1 in this

15     SRK report from the 26th of May, 1992, it says:

16             "The composition of armoured mechanised units located at Mojmilo

17     water-supply system is under sniper fire and two soldiers have been

18     wounded.  The enemy attacks on daily basis in a very organised manner in

19     the wider region ...," et cetera.

20             This document from the SRK command indicates indeed that

21     Mojmilo hill was held by the VRS at this time, and this is the 26th of

22     May, 1992; is that correct?

23        A.   I don't understand why Rogatica is mentioned here.  It says the

24     general Rogatica sector.  Why is that?

25        Q.   That follows the comments about the armoured mechanised units on

Page 29649

 1     Mojmilo water-supply system coming under sniper fire.  Doesn't appear to

 2     be relevant to that.  The statement that the armoured mechanised units

 3     located at Mojmilo water-supply system is under sniper fire, that

 4     statement indicates that at this time the VRS controlled Mojmilo hill

 5     and, in fact, had position there; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.  But this is in the area of a different

 7     municipality.  I think it's the water-supply system that belongs to the

 8     Novi Grad municipality and the unit of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  But

 9     that's a different unit that has nothing to do with the territorial units

10     that were deployed in the vicinity of Vraca.

11        Q.   Well, Mr. Garic, this is a later period of time when the SRK was

12     formed.  The point is simply that the Bosnian Serbs held Mojmilo hill, as

13     indicated on this document, on 26th of May, 1992; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.  The VRS was established on the 12th of May, but I'm talking

15     about the Territorial Defence.  As far as the Territorial Defence is

16     concerned, they were in the direction of Vraca to the right of this unit.

17     But that was on the right flank.  I never went to that part of the

18     territory, but I can claim with full responsibility and with certainty

19     that the members of the Territorial Defence who were on that line were

20     under the Mojmilo hill, beneath the Mojmilo hill, and not at the

21     water-supply system at Mojmilo.

22        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to move on to another topic, which is the

23     Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff.  Now, when you were interviewed by the

24     Prosecution in 2004, you were asked:

25             "Did you attend any meetings of the Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff?"

Page 29650

 1             And you answered:

 2             "I was present at a few meetings in Lukavica, Pilava, Vraca only.

 3     I was present at only a few meetings."

 4             And that's at page 26.  So I'd like to ask you what specific

 5     locations in Lukavica, Pilava, and Vraca you attended Crisis Staff

 6     meetings, if you can recall?

 7        A.   Well, I have understood your question.  I attended Crisis Staff

 8     meetings in the headquarters of the municipality where I worked.  And now

 9     I can claim that I wasn't at such a meeting in Lukavica.  I was later

10     informed of things, but I wasn't there at the time.  The date referred to

11     is the 29th of January, and on that date it was impossible for me to

12     attend that meeting because I was celebrating the day of St. Sava and a

13     few days prior to that day I'd take a few days off and a few days off

14     after that date --

15        Q.   Mr. Garic --

16        A.   -- so I could not have attended that meeting on the 29th.  That's

17     out of the question.

18        Q.   I think, in fact, you're anticipating a question that I didn't,

19     in fact, ask.  My question was simply:  Based on your statement to the

20     Prosecution that you were present at a few Crisis Staff meetings in

21     Lukavica, Pilava, and Vraca, where those meetings were -- took place.

22     And your answer was:

23             "I attended Crisis Staff meetings in the headquarters of the

24     municipality where I worked, and now I can claim that I wasn't at such a

25     meeting in Lukavica."

Page 29651

 1             So is your evidence that you never attended any Crisis Staff

 2     meetings in Lukavica, contrary to what you told the OTP in 2004?

 3        A.   As far as I can remember, I didn't tell the Prosecution, or

 4     rather, the investigator that I was in Lukavica.  I said I wasn't there.

 5     I was in the headquarters of the Municipal Assembly of Novo Sarajevo

 6     where I worked and I was in Vraca in a local commune in Vraca and in

 7     Grbavica in the local commune Bane Surbat, but not in Lukavica.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we have 1D26007, page 26, please.

 9        Q.   Now, I know you probably can't follow this in English, but I'm

10     going to read it out to you, Mr. Garic.  The first full question on the

11     page where it says "JTH," the question is:

12             "Did you attend any meetings of the Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff?"

13             And your answer is:

14             "I was present at a few meetings in Lukavica, Pilava, Vraca.

15     Only ... I was present at only a few meetings."

16             And then the investigator goes on to ask you who was in charge.

17             So I'd like to ask you again:  Is it your evidence today that you

18     did not attend any Crisis Staff meetings in Lukavica, contrary to what

19     you told the investigators in 2004?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I suggest that we show this

21     interview in the Serbian language too.  This will help us to remind the

22     witness of what he was asked about and what he said.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  We don't have a --

25             JUDGE KWON:  No --

Page 29652

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  -- B/C/S version of this document.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that the witness does.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The passage was read out to the witness.  I take it

 4     that the witness understood the question.

 5             Mr. Garic, can you answer the question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood quite a bit.  Here I

 7     can see that Lukavica is referred to.  Pilava, it's not Pilava -- Tilava,

 8     Vraca.  I said I was in Vraca in the Municipal Assembly of Novo Sarajevo.

 9     As for Pilava and Lukavica, I don't remember having said that to the

10     Prosecutor or the investigator.  I don't remember having attended those

11     meetings.  I was in the headquarters of the Municipal Assembly of

12     Novo Sarajevo where I worked.  I was in the local commune of Vraca.  I

13     was in the local commune as far as I can remember of Pante [phoen], Bane

14     Surbat at Grbavica.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:

16        Q.   So your evidence is you don't remember what is recorded in this

17     transcript of your audio-recorded interview and you weren't at any

18     Crisis Staff meetings in Lukavica; is that right?

19        A.   That is my position.  That's what I believe.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go now to P2583, and this is a part

22     of the transcript that I would be relying on but perhaps it's better to

23     wait until the end of the witness's evidence before dealing with the

24     admission of the interview.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, I think this is the meeting about which you

Page 29653

 1     anticipated I would ask questions because it was shown to you in 2004.

 2     And from your earlier answers I understood this is what you were talking

 3     about.  It's the minutes of a Crisis Staff meeting held in the Lukavica

 4     local community on 29 January 1992.  And it says the meeting is attended

 5     by and there are -- is a list of names including yours, and it indicates

 6     that two people are absent, Dragan Sojic and Milenko Jovanovic.  Now, I

 7     believe you also confirmed to the Prosecution in 2004 that you knew all

 8     the people who in attendance -- listed as being in attendance at this

 9     meeting and they all knew you; is that right?

10        A.   That's correct.  I know all these people and they know me too.

11     Bogdanovic, Radomir worked in the Municipal Assembly of Novo Sarajevo.

12     Vucetic, Dragan worked in the Municipal Assembly of Sarajevo.  Nastic,

13     Nebojsa worked in the Assembly.  Sarovic, Mirko, Sarovic, Mirko.

14     Gajovic, Dobro, he didn't work in the Novo Sarajevo Municipal Assembly,

15     as far as I can remember.  He worked in some European insurance company.

16     Neskovic, Radomir, as far as I can remember, didn't work in the Municipal

17     Assembly of Novo Sarajevo.  He worked for the television.  And then

18     there's myself.  Kovac, Drago, yes, he worked in the Novo Sarajevo

19     Municipal Assembly.  Jugovic, Ranko, the headquarters of the Serbian

20     Democratic Party, the municipal committee was in the municipal building

21     so he was there.  Djurovic, Zarko, yes, he worked in the Novo Sarajevo

22     Municipal Assembly.  And Prijic, Milivoje didn't work in the

23     Novo Sarajevo Municipal Assembly.  As far as I can remember he was the

24     director of Galenika.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Before you proceed, Mr. Garic, Momo is your first

Page 29654

 1     name, do you confirm that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Momo.  My name is Momir Garic.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see the name here, Momo Garic, in this

 4     document?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  I see that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Is that you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Momir Garic, and I'm

 8     telling you again that at this meeting of the Crisis Staff held on the

 9     29th, I'm telling you again that I did not attend this meeting.  As I

10     have already said, the date is the 29th of January.  I gave you the

11     reasons.  I wasn't at the meeting because I was celebrating on that date.

12     I can't leave guests at my home in order to attend a meeting.

13             JUDGE KWON:  But a few minutes ago, Mr. Garic, you said that was

14     your name.  It's transcript page 29, line 15.  I'll read out the part of

15     the transcript.

16             "Neskovic, Radomir, as far as I can remember, didn't work in the

17     Municipal Assembly of Novo Sarajevo.  He worked for the television.  And

18     then there's myself."

19             You said Momo Garic was yourself.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was reading from the screen.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What you read from the screen was

22     "Momo Garic."  You told us that that was you, and now you're saying it's

23     not you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm just looking at the date of

25     the meeting and of those who attended the meeting.  Momo isn't the same

Page 29655

 1     as Momir.  It's Momir, not Momo.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Whether or not you attended this

 3     meeting, can you show the witness para number 10 of this document,

 4     probably next page for the B/C/S.

 5             I apologise, Ms. Gustafson, if I pre-empt you.

 6             But number 10 says:

 7             "All battalion commanders to be called to the Crisis Staff

 8     meeting.  In charge:  Momo Garic."

 9             Whether or not you attended this meeting, does this refer to you,

10     Mr. Garic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the date of the document is

12     the 29th of January, 19 -- the 29th of January.  I don't know which

13     commanders are concerned, the battalion commanders.  I'm telling you that

14     from the very beginning of the war there were no battalion commanders.

15     The only legitimate military forces were the JNA and the police.  While I

16     worked in the Novo Sarajevo Municipal Assembly, this concerned the

17     reserve and military composition of the Territorial Defence before the

18     war.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Garic, Momo is a nickname and one of the names that it is a

22     nickname for is Momir; right?

23        A.   Momir is the name, and the nickname that is used is Momo.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And just for reference, this document is discussed at

25     pages 47 to 52 of the interview.

Page 29656

 1             Now, I'd like to move on to talk about the activities of the

 2     Novo Sarajevo TO that you discuss in your statement.  And at paragraph 12

 3     of your statement you said when the war started at the beginning of

 4     April 1992 the TO staffs in the Sarajevo municipalities where Serbs lived

 5     were mobilised.  And you explain that in your municipality:

 6             "...  we organised a unit of TO members from the Serbian part of

 7     Novo Sarajevo municipality."

 8             And that's at paragraph 13.  Now, my first question is not based

 9     specifically on the statement, but it's this:  Other than you, did this

10     Serb TO unit that you formed include any other members of the former

11     Novo Sarajevo TO who were ethnic Serbs?

12        A.   If you could repeat your question I would be grateful.  I didn't

13     understand the last couple of sentences.

14        Q.   Certainly.  The question is about the Serb TO unit that was

15     formed in your municipality.  Other than you, did the unit -- the TO unit

16     that you formed include any other members of the former Novo Sarajevo TO?

17        A.   The Territorial Defence staff of Novo Sarajevo was of mixed

18     composition.  It included various ethnicities, there was Serbs, Croats,

19     and Muslims in it so its composition was mixed.  When situation became

20     complicated and when it was said that some sort of misfortune would

21     happen -- the Serbian side isn't guilty, as far as I'm concerned.  On

22     that occasion the Serbian people started organising themselves and there

23     was certain advisors who advised them as to where they should set up

24     defences for their houses so that paramilitary formations didn't enter

25     the territory and slaughter their families and destroy their property.

Page 29657

 1     Apart from me who was a Serb in the Territorial Defence staff, there were

 2     other Serbs who also had an advisory function.  But it was only in the

 3     area inhabited by Serbian people, Tilava, Lukavica, Vraca,

 4     Gornji Kovacici, Miljevici, Petrovici, in these areas inhabited by Serbs

 5     alone.  And whenever there were conversations about establishing such

 6     guards --

 7        Q.   Mr. Garic --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I'm going to interrupt you again.  I'd like you to focus on the

10     specific question that I ask and limit yourself to answering that

11     specific question.  I understand that there were other Serbs from the

12     former multi-ethnic TO staff that also had this advisory function that

13     you referred to.  What were their names?

14        A.   Well, the commander was a Muslim.  He worked with me in the

15     staff --

16        Q.   No, you've misunderstood my question.  You explained that the

17     former -- that the multi-ethnic Novo Sarajevo TO that you were an

18     employee of before the war included other Serbs.  And then I believe you

19     explained that those other Serbs also had an advisory function in the new

20     Serb TO that was established in your area.  My question is:  What were

21     the names of those other Serbs from the former multi-ethnic TO staff who

22     had this advisory function?

23        A.   Well, there was Serbs who worked with me in the staff of the

24     Territorial Defence up until the beginning of the war.  There was

25     Ilija Kovadarica [phoen], Jovo Tadic.  Those are the Serbs who worked in

Page 29658

 1     the Territorial Defence staff.  I was a Serb.  And maybe there were one

 2     or two others whose names I cannot remember, believe me.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And you --

 4        A.   I apologise.  There was a secretariat for National Defence as

 5     well from the Novo Sarajevo Municipal Assembly and it was also of mixed

 6     composition.  That was in the Secretariat for National Defence.  There

 7     was Serbs, Croats, and Muslims too in the secretariat.  The scope of the

 8     activities of the secretariat and the national -- and the TO overlap.

 9     The Secretariat for National Defence had records on all members, had

10     information about them, and the Territorial Defence staff was involved in

11     training the units that were part of the reserve forces.

12        Q.   And you were a reserve officer with the rank of captain at this

13     time; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  And were there any other members of this Serb TO unit that

16     you formed in April 1992 who were ranking officers, either active or

17     reserve?

18        A.   Do you have in mind people who worked with me on a professional

19     basis in the TO staff?

20        Q.   I'm asking about this unit of TO members from the Serbian part of

21     Novo Sarajevo municipality that you formed in April.  In that unit, were

22     there any other ranking officers, either active or reserve?

23        A.   Well, there were no active officers.  There were professionals

24     but no active officers.  There were reserve officers, as many as you

25     like.  There really were a lot of reserve officers, officers, and junior

Page 29659

 1     officers because Novo Sarajevo municipality covers an extensive territory

 2     and had a lot of inhabitants.  This is the area of Tilava, Lukavica,

 3     Vraca, Kovacici.  There were a lot of reserve officers, officers and

 4     junior officers as well.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember any of the names of the officers?  Forget

 6     about the junior officers for now, but any of the officers?

 7        A.   Well, yes, I remember the ones who were in the

 8     Territorial Defence stamp -- staff and they were recorded -- they were on

 9     record in the secretariat and the staff was involved in training with

10     such units.  I do remember quite a few names of people who were in the

11     Territorial Defence staff.

12        Q.   Can you list the names that you remember?

13        A.   Well, I can remember certain names of certain individuals, but

14     there were quite a few reserve officers, junior officers and officers.

15        Q.   I was asking just about officers.  How many?

16        A.   Well, I couldn't give you an exact number.  Believe me, I would

17     need some time to think about it and remember.  It covered fairly

18     extensive stretch of territory:  Tilava, Lukavica, Vraca, Kovacici,

19     Petrovici.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You've explained that already.  Roughly how many

21     officers, not junior officers, officers were in your Serb TO in

22     Novo Sarajevo?

23        A.   Well, I understand your question to mean how many officers, not

24     junior officers, how many officers there were in the Territorial Defence

25     from April 1992.

Page 29660

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   Well, believe me, I couldn't provide you with a number but there

 3     were quite a few reserve officers, quite a few reserve officers.

 4        Q.   Okay.  You said in your statement - this is a statement that's

 5     been admitted as your evidence - that there was no commander of this Serb

 6     TO but that:

 7             "As an experienced officer of the TO Novo Sarajevo and a reserve

 8     officer, I engaged in helping people to organise positions and protect

 9     them from the Muslim paramilitary forces."

10             And that's at paragraph 12.

11             So is it fair to say from your evidence that within your unit you

12     were one of the more respected members in light of your position as an

13     experienced TO member and a reserve officer?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.  In the area I lived up until the time the

15     war broke out, the honest people was -- respected me.  And so in

16     Lukavica, Tilava, and Vraca, in that area when just before the war it was

17     announced that there would be a difficult time for the Serbian people.

18     We organised guards there, neighbours, friends and so on --

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Garic.

20        A.   -- were involved.  There was no quarrelling and no

21     disobedience --

22        Q.   Mr. Garic, if you could just please answer my specific questions.

23     Your evidence, including all of this detail about the activities of your

24     unit, is in your statement and that's in evidence for the Court to

25     consider.  I'd just like you to answer my questions now.  And the next

Page 29661

 1     one is:  In this period in early April 1992, did your TO unit have any

 2     kind of headquarters or base or any similar type of location where they

 3     would gather?

 4        A.   Well, they would gather in local communes, Tilava, Lukavica,

 5     local commune Vraca, local commune, they would gather in houses, and so

 6     on and so forth.  They would gather in local communes, discuss matters,

 7     problems, the various dangers, threats that we were exposed to.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Was the Pajaco facility in Vraca one of those locations?

 9        A.   Yes, that was one of the locations.  It was in the immediate

10     vicinity right across the road from the police station.  The police

11     building.  There was a police academy there before the war and when the

12     war started it was the police that was located there.  So it was in the

13     immediate vicinity.  There's only a road that separates it from the

14     police.  And Pajaco is in fact a house that was abandoned, and it was

15     used by the members of the Serbian Territorial Defence and by volunteer

16     as they would assemble there to discuss matters.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That would be a good time to break if

19     Your Honours wish.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for half an hour and resume

21     at three past 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 29662

 1        Q.   Mr. Garic, I'd like to move on to a different topic now, which is

 2     the arrival of the 216th Mountain Brigade to Novo Sarajevo.  And at

 3     paragraph 22 of your statement you said the brigade arrived in mid-April.

 4     The Chamber has heard evidence from the chief of operations and training

 5     for the 216th Brigade.  He testified for the Defence.  His name was

 6     Stevan Veljovic.  And he testified that the 216th Brigade arrived in

 7     Sarajevo on May 3rd, 1992, and that's at transcript page 29234.  And, in

 8     fact, your draft statement that we received said that the brigade arrived

 9     between the 4th and 6th of May and you've now changed that to the middle

10     of April.  Is it possible that you're mistaken about the date of the

11     arrival of the 216th Brigade and in fact it arrived somewhat later than

12     you've said in your evidence?

13        A.   Yes.  In my first statement I stated that they arrived at the

14     beginning of May, maybe on the 2nd or on the 3rd.  Later on, on

15     reflection, I realised that they arrived either in mid- or the second

16     part of April, although in my first statement I did state that that

17     brigade arrived at the beginning of May.  On reflection, I now believe

18     that they arrived somewhat later, which is why I altered that part of my

19     statement.

20        Q.   Okay.  And what caused you to change your mind about the date of

21     arrival of the brigade between this past summer and when you arrived in

22     The Hague?

23        A.   I don't know.  I said that I had a long and hard thought about

24     that, and after that I realised that they arrived in April, either in

25     mid-April or the second part of April.  It was on reflection.  I pondered

Page 29663

 1     over what I remembered and I now believe that they arrived in April,

 2     either in mid-April or in the second part of April.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And I'll ask my earlier question again.  Is it possible

 4     that the chief of operations and training of the 216th Brigade,

 5     Stevan Veljovic, is correct that the brigade arrived around May 3rd and

 6     that you are mistaken?

 7        A.   It is quite likely.  It is quite possible that he knows the exact

 8     date.  I believed he also had an order pursuant to which they arrived.

 9     So I believe that he is right.  I myself also stated that originally;

10     however, as I reflected on the whole situation after a long and hard

11     thought I arrived at the conclusion that they arrived in mid-April.  I

12     don't know what Mr. Veljovic's rank was, but I do believe that they had

13     received an order specifying the date when they should be dispatched,

14     hence he probably knows when they arrived.

15        Q.   Okay.  And you explained that when that unit arrived, members of

16     the Serbian TO from Lukavica, Tilava, Miljevici, Petrovici, and part of

17     Gornji Kovacici were formed into a battalion.  That's at paragraph 22 of

18     your statement.  And you explained that you were not the commander of

19     that battalion.  Who was appointed battalion commander when your TO unit

20     joined the 216th Brigade?

21        A.   All able-bodied men, military conscripts, that is, were merged

22     with that brigade; i.e., that brigade absorbed the entire staff into that

23     professional military unit.

24        Q.   Okay.  Well, in your statement you said that the Serbian TO from

25     these villages were formed into a battalion.  Who was the commander of

Page 29664

 1     that battalion?

 2        A.   I have already stated that there were no appointments of the

 3     command cadre at the time.  People like I was and other reserve officers

 4     who enjoyed prominent reputation in their villages were selected.  There

 5     were no formal appointments.  Only when that unit arrived did they

 6     introduce a system of subordination and all the staff was absorbed in

 7     that unit.  Everybody was given an establishment position in keeping with

 8     their capabilities, ranks, and other relevant elements.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And that's exactly what I'm asking you about.  When that

10     unit, the 216th Brigade, arrived and the -- your TO was formed into a JNA

11     battalion - which you said you think was the 4th Battalion - who became

12     the commander of that battalion?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May the witness be provided with

14     his statement where it says the 3rd Battalion in paragraph 22.  That's

15     what you can read in paragraph 22, the 3rd Battalion.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm looking at the end of the 22nd

17     paragraph.  That's what I have in front of me.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:

19        Q.   Yes, exactly, where there's a reference to the 4th Battalion.  Do

20     you want me to repeat my question, Mr. Garic?

21        A.   No, no.  I understand your question perfectly well, and again I'm

22     saying that everybody, all able-bodied men, were absorbed by that unit.

23     They became its members.  And as far as I can remember, the commander of

24     that battalion when it became part of the professional army was the

25     reserve officer Brane Palackovic, I remember that I remember his name

Page 29665

 1     correctly, Palackovic, yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And what was your position in the battalion once it was

 3     incorporated into the JNA?

 4        A.   Before I joined the Ministry of Defence in mid-September, I did

 5     not have an establishment post.  I spent a lot of time travelling from

 6     Lukavica to Pale and then to Jahorina.  That's where the seat of the

 7     government of Republika Srpska was.  I was involved in talks there

 8     leading to my transfer to the same job I did before the war in the

 9     Ministry of Defence because the remit of the Ministry of Defence and the

10     staff of the Territorial Defence where I worked before the beginning of

11     the war, before April 1992, are similar.  I had the necessary

12     qualification and that's why I spent more time at Pale and on Jahorina

13     looking for a place where I will be employed permanently, where we'll --

14     where I will gain a livelihood.

15        Q.   Okay.  What -- you said a moment ago that the -- that when that

16     unit - referring to the 216th Brigade - arrived, they introduced a system

17     of subordination and all the staff was absorbed in that unit.  Everybody

18     was given an establishment position in keeping with their capabilities,

19     ranks, and other relevant elements.

20             I understood from that answer that your entire TO unit was

21     incorporated into the 216th Brigade.  Are you saying now that you

22     actually didn't become part of that brigade?

23        A.   Well, I repeat that until the arrival of the professional army,

24     there were no appointments.  There were people who advised the Serbian

25     population, and then I spent the entire period, lasting for two or three

Page 29666

 1     months, travelling from Lukavica and Pale to Jahorina looking for a job.

 2     I wanted to do exactly the same thing I did before the war.

 3        Q.   Okay, Mr. Garic.  Let me ask it this way:  Is it your position

 4     that you were never a member of the 216th Brigade of the JNA or the VRS

 5     once the 216th Brigade was transformed into a VRS unit in May?

 6        A.   I was a member of that unit.  I was a member of that unit, but I

 7     did not have an establishment post.  I was never appointed to an

 8     establishment post.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Did you keep your rank as captain?

10        A.   I had that rank before and when I joined the Ministry of Defence

11     pursuant to the laws governing the work of the armed forces and the

12     Ministry of Defence, I was promoted by two ranks in the Ministry of

13     Defence --

14        Q.   Mr. Garic --

15        A.   -- I don't know how long --

16        Q.   -- I'm sorry, I think we're straying away from the topic.  When

17     you became a member of the 216th Brigade, did you keep your rank as

18     captain?

19        A.   I was a reserve captain and that -- I kept that rank until the

20     moment I joined the Ministry of Defence.  In the Ministry of Defence, I

21     was promoted first to the rank of major and then lieutenant-colonel, so I

22     kept that rank, yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So notwithstanding your rank as a captain within your

24     battalion within the JNA structure, you had no -- what you've referred to

25     as establishment post.  So I understand from that you were just a regular

Page 29667

 1     member of that battalion.  Is that your position?

 2        A.   I did not have an appointment.  I was not a foot soldier either.

 3     I moved around.  I moved around the sector.  I would go to the command of

 4     that brigade, but, I repeat, they gave me a lot more free time in order

 5     to talk about my new job and I spent more time travelling between

 6     Lukavica and Pale and Jahorina than in the place where the military was,

 7     where their command post was.

 8        Q.   So you're unable to specify what your position was within the

 9     4th Battalion of the 216th Brigade?

10        A.   I don't know if we're talking about the 3rd or the 4th Battalion,

11     I can't remember.  In any case, originally it was the Territorial Defence

12     but later it merged with the brigade.  As far as I can remember, I did

13     not have an appointment in that brigade.  I'm sure that I didn't until

14     the moment I was transferred to the Ministry of Defence when I was given

15     a permanent position which at that time was known as work obligation.  It

16     was my permanent work position but it was called work obligation.

17        Q.   Okay.  And the commander of the 216th Brigade at the time was

18     Dragomir Milosevic; right?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  I believe that the commander was a lieutenant-colonel

20     and that his name was Dragomir Milosevic, yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'd like to go back in time and look at the

22     activities of your TO unit before - at least how I understand it - before

23     it was incorporated into the JNA.  And I'd like to start by playing an

24     intercepted conversation from 21 April 1992, which is P5703.  So if you

25     could just listen to this conversation and then I will ask you some

Page 29668

 1     questions.

 2                           [Intercept played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover]

 4             "It is the Serbian municipality village.

 5             "What's up?

 6             "How are you Momo?

 7             "How can you assist us with manpower.

 8             "As soon as possible in manpower?

 9             "Yes.

10             "Wait till I check out.

11             "Do you have any armoured --

12             "Yeah.

13             "We sent one.

14             "When?

15             "This morning.

16             "Well nothing, just a few.  Just a few.

17             "They're coming from all sides.  The army won't use tanks.

18     Nothing.

19             "They won't even move the tanks.

20             "No, no, by God, do you have anything?

21             "The number?

22             "621-116.

23             "Just calling and we'll push it a bit.

24             "621-106.

25             "Aha.

Page 29669

 1             "And if you gather those and send them to Vraca, please.

 2             "Okay.  Old man.

 3             "Bye then."

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 5        Q.   Okay, Mr. Garic, in this conversation a person who is

 6     identified -- who identifies himself as Momo and who is identified by the

 7     intercept operator as Momo Garic calls a certain Velibor in Ilidza asking

 8     for assistance with manpower.  Velibor tells him to call Prstojevic.

 9     Then Momo asked Velibor to sent men to Vraca.  And I think you explained

10     earlier that Vraca was in your area and, in fact, it was -- there was a

11     location in Vraca where your TO would gather.  So this is, in fact, you

12     asking for manpower to be sent to Ilidza; is that right?

13        A.   In 2004 I stated in Belgrade that I do not remember this

14     conversation.  I'm really not clear.  I really don't understand.  I don't

15     remember this conversation.  I do not remember ever having communicated

16     with Ilidza and asking for something.  Believe me, despite my great wish

17     to help the Court and you and everybody else, I really do not remember

18     this conversation.  I do not remember ever having conducted this type of

19     a conversation, getting in touch with Ilidza.  I really don't remember

20     any such thing.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, you said you --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I suggest -- because if I leave

23     this for my additional examination, it hasn't entered the transcript that

24     one of the collocutors said that the military did not want to move

25     anything, they didn't want to move the tanks or anything.

Page 29670

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The army was not helping and that's

 3     why somebody is asking a favour --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  When the witness says he doesn't remember this.

 5     There is no point of putting that question to the witness.

 6             Let's move on.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  In any event, Your Honours, this is an exhibit,

 8     it's in evidence, the transcript is available.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You said you don't remember having this conversation.  Do

10     you remember -- do you know Nedjeljko Prstojevic, or did you know him at

11     the time, the commander of the Ilidza Crisis Staff?

12        A.   Mr. Nedjeljko Prstojevic, I know him superficially just by sight.

13     I don't think I ever communicated with him.  I know that he lived and

14     worked in Ilidza.  We did not have any contacts.  That's what I remember.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to play another intercepted conversation from the

16     same day, 21 April 1992, and this is Exhibit D1202.  If you could again

17     listen to this conversation and then I'll ask you some questions.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we're waiting I would like to

19     say that I did not have any objections to anything.  I just wanted to

20     correct the transcript.  We heard something, but that did not make it to

21     the transcript.  I wanted to make a correction on the transcript.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, what is that?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One of the collocutors said the

24     army doesn't want to move the tanks, they don't want to do anything, and

25     he expresses his despair for not being able to defend his people, whereas

Page 29671

 1     the army did not want to help.  That did not make it to the transcript.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Do you mean that that part of the conversation was

 3     not reflected in the exhibit itself?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I think the problem seems to

 5     be that Dr. Karadzic has heard something that's not reflected in the

 6     transcript of the conversation.  He's not referring to the transcript of

 7     our LiveNote.  So perhaps we could ask that this be referred back to the

 8     language section and they could check the exhibit to see if it

 9     accurately -- is translated accurately.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             Let's continue, Ms. Gustafson.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  And I just note for the record that

13     the passage the accused refers to is in the transcript of this intercept,

14     P5703, so it's in evidence, regardless of what ended up on the

15     transcript.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, let's listen to this conversation from the

17     21st of April, 1992.  This is D1202.

18                           [Intercept played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Unidentified male person:  Yes?

20             "Momo Garic:  Good afternoon.

21             "Unidentified male person:  Good afternoon.

22             "Momo Garic:  May I speak to Danilo?

23             "Unidentified male person:  Danilo?

24             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

25             "Unidentified male person:  Danilo who?

Page 29672

 1             "Momo Garic:  Veselinovic.

 2             "Unidentified male person:  Well, you've got the wrong number, my

 3     son.  Where are you calling from?

 4             "Momo Garic:  And is Mr. Prstojevic there?

 5             "Unidentified male person:  Who are you and where are you calling

 6     from?

 7             "Momo Garic:  I'm calling from Novo Sarajevo" --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we break for five minutes?

 9             There's some technical difficulty with my headphones.

10             We'll rise for five minutes.

11                           --- Break taken at 11.27 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             Shall we begin with the intercept again?

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour, that's

16     Exhibit D1202.

17                           [Intercept played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Unidentified male speaker:  Yes?

19             "Momo Garic:  Good afternoon.

20             "Unidentified male speaker:  Good afternoon.

21             "Momo Garic:  May I speak to Danilo?

22             "Unidentified male speaker:  Danilo?

23             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

24             "Unidentified male speaker:  Danilo who?

25             "Momo Garic:  Veselinovic.

Page 29673

 1             "Unidentified male speaker:  Well you've got the wrong number, my

 2     son.  Where are you calling from?

 3             "Momo Garic:  And is Prstojevic there?

 4             "Unidentified male speaker:  Who are you and where are you

 5     calling from?

 6             "Momo Garic:  I'm calling from Novo Sarajevo.

 7             "Unidentified male speaker:  And who are you?

 8             "Momo Garic:  Momo.

 9             "Unidentified male speaker:  Momo who?

10             "Momo Garic:  Garic.

11             "Unidentified male speaker:  Tell me, Eric.

12             "Momo Garic:  Wait, wait, wait a second.  Garic, this is Garic.

13             "Unidentified male speaker:  Oh Garic, go ahead.

14             "Momo Garic:  Is Veselinovic there?

15             "Unidentified male speaker:  No, Veselinovic is not there.

16             "Momo Garic:  Can you just can you help us, please?

17             "Unidentified male speaker:  Tell me, speak up!

18             "Momo Garic:  The army refuses, those tanks, we are encircled.

19     Do you have any armours and manpower, please, I'm begging you.

20             "Unidentified male speaker:  Garic, Prstojevic is here.

21             "Momo Garic:  Let me talk to him.

22             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Hello?

23             "Momo Garic:  Prstojevic?

24             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Yes.

25             "Momo Garic:  This is Garic.

Page 29674

 1             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Good morning.

 2             "Momo Garic:  What's up?  Listen.

 3             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Nothing special.

 4             "Momo Garic:  How can you help us as soon as possible.

 5             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Help who?

 6             "Momo Garic:  Us.

 7             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Who, where is that?

 8             "Momo Garic:  Novo Sarajevo.

 9             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Yes, but where?  What is your location?

10             "Momo Garic:  Just a second, we are at Vraca.  We need some men

11     in Vraca urgently, please.

12             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Wait a second.  Where are you in Vraca

13     exactly?  Are you down near the MUP or up there?

14             "Momo Garic:  Somebody will wait for those men at the pass.

15             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Are you at the pass and further up on the

16     right side?

17             "Momo Garic:  I will wait for the men at the pass.

18             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Wait a second, Garic.  Are you at the pass

19     and further up on the right side towards Vraca.

20             "Momo Garic:  We went down to the town, all the way up to the

21     Miljacka, but the army refuses to move and we are encircled.

22             " Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Wait a second, are you fighting there?

23             "Momo Garic:  We are fighting fiercely.  We have many casualties.

24             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Tonight, is that right?

25             "Momo Garic:  Well, no it started this morning here ... forget

Page 29675

 1     about it now.  We are encircled as it seems.

 2             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Hmm.

 3             "Momo Garic:  How can you help us?  I also called Velibor in

 4     Nedzarici and he will try to do something, but that is not enough.

 5     That's not enough.

 6             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  All right.  What are the special forces

 7     doing?

 8             "Momo Garic:  They refuse to leave the barracks area.  The

 9     special forces refuse to leave the barracks area.  That's it.  The

10     reserve police force also promised to do everything they can but they

11     went back.

12             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Aha.

13             "Momo Garic:  That's it.

14             "What are we going to do?

15             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  You know, it's day-time and it is the

16     south it is difficult to fight during the day in the south.

17             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

18             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  And if they encircle you we cannot allow

19     that.  First of all we must not allow the encirclement and second ...

20             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

21             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Yes.  One can strike very well during the

22     day.

23             "So you have to organise yourself and get help from the people

24     from the nearest surroundings.

25             "Momo Garic:  There is nobody closer than you.

Page 29676

 1             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  You have Vraca, Petrovici, and that area.

 2             "Momo Garic:  There is nobody here.  They've all gone down.

 3             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  They've all gone down?

 4             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

 5             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Well if everybody's gone down, those must

 6     be very strong forces.

 7             "Momo Garic:  Well them.  We are stretched thin on, on all sides.

 8     Zlatiste.

 9             "So that's the problem.  That is the problem.

10             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Withdraw.  I don't know, at this hour

11     things here are going ...

12             "Momo Garic:  What?

13             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  I don't know if I can give you any

14     specific help right now.

15             "At this moment.

16             "Momo Garic:  All right.  All right.

17             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Where are you fighting exactly?  Where

18     exactly are you ...

19             "Momo Garic:  Vrbanja, Grbavica, Ivan Krndelj to Elektroprivreda.

20             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  And you went down, is that right?

21             "Momo Garic:  Yes, yes, yes.

22             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Hem.

23             "Well, if nothing else withdraw a little bit, with resilience, I

24     mean.

25             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

Page 29677

 1             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Withdraw and mobilise all those people.

 2             "Momo Garic:  Everybody's mobilised.

 3             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  Don't forget that it is difficult to send

 4     men to fight in an unknown area.

 5             "Momo Garic:  Yes.  All right.

 6             "Nedjelko Prstojevic:  All right then.

 7             "Momir Garic:  All right, goodbye!"

 8             "All right then, good-bye."

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, I'm sure you heard that in this conversation the

11     person making the call identifies himself as Momo Garic.  He says he's

12     calling from Novo Sarajevo, specifically from Vraca.  He says:

13             "We are encircled."

14             He says the army and the police refuse to assist and just as in

15     the previous conversation we listened to he asks for manpower to be sent

16     urgently from Ilidza to Vraca.  Now, I know you said you didn't think

17     you'd had any contacts with Mr. Prstojevic at the time, but this is

18     clearly you speaking, isn't it?

19        A.   I do not remember those conversations, absolutely.  It seems like

20     a different world.  I don't remember this conversation.  I do not

21     remember that I personally conducted that conversation.  I repeat that I

22     knew Prstojevic by sight.  We didn't socialise.  We did not communicate.

23     And the truth is that the army really did not wish to extend any

24     assistance to the unarmed people, very few people in this part of

25     Sarajevo.  And that's the truth.  But however, I repeat the claim that I

Page 29678

 1     do not remember ever having conducted this conversation.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, Mr. Garic.  Although you don't remember

 3     such conversation, do you confirm that it was your voice?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  It's like a child's voice.

 5     It does not resemble my voice at all, absolutely not.  It doesn't

 6     resemble my voice at all.  This is my frank and personal opinion.  This

 7     does not resemble my voice.  I do not remember that I ever conducted this

 8     conversation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, you agree, do you not, that the situation that this

12     Momo Garic from Novo Sarajevo is describing is in your area; right?  You

13     were operating around Vraca and, in fact, as we mentioned earlier, you

14     confirmed that Vraca -- there was a location in Vraca where your TO was

15     located.  So this was an operation of your TO forces, was it not?

16        A.   Yes, the locality is at Vraca.  This is where those things

17     happened and this describes how it evolved, but we don't know anything

18     about the operations that were going on, save for the fact that we were

19     engaged -- there was defence.  I don't know that there were any

20     movements.  I don't know what kind of operations were going on.  I could

21     not conclude based on the conversation that there were any operations

22     going on.

23        Q.   Well, in the conversation, in fact, the person who you claim

24     isn't you but whose name is Momo Garic said:

25             "We are encircled ..."

Page 29679

 1             And then said:

 2             "We went down to the town all the way to the Miljacka river but

 3     they are too strong there, they are encircling us, and the army refuses

 4     to move."

 5             And then Prstojevic says:

 6             "Wait a second, are you fighting there?"

 7             And Momo Garic replies:

 8             "We are fighting fiercely.  We have many casualties."

 9             Does this refresh your memory as to a TO operation involving your

10     TO unit on the 21st of April, 1992?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, before the arrival of the professional

12     army TO members never moved beyond the Sarajevo bypass.  I don't think

13     that they ever did.  If they did do that, those may have been some

14     individuals for their personal reasons.  We didn't have any weapons or

15     means or personnel to go down.  The only time that we descended beyond

16     the Sarajevo bypass was in mid-May when the professional army arrived,

17     never before that, save for possibly some individuals.  When it came to

18     the organised TO which only defended its lines from paramilitaries, they

19     didn't do that.  Only when the professional army arrived - as far as I

20     can remember that was in mid-May - in order to repair the tactical

21     position because the position at Vraca was really not enviable and

22     that's -- we descended down to Grbavica.  And that was a

23     semi-encirclement.  The location beyond Vraca, Debelo Brdo is a prominent

24     elevation from which you could see Vraca and from which very often sniper

25     fire was opened and there were a lot of wounded, a lot of casualties, and

Page 29680

 1     so on and so forth.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well this conversation was actually played to

 3     Mr. Prstojevic when he gave evidence here, the -- Mr. Karadzic played

 4     this intercept for Mr. Prstojevic and Mr. Prstojevic said - and this is

 5     at transcript page 13689 and 90:

 6             "As for Mr. Garic and his men, I spoke to them several times

 7     during that day.  He was the commander of the Territorial Defence there.

 8     I did not really know the man very well until then and I'm giving him

 9     advice here because I see that the JNA doesn't want to do anything.  They

10     didn't take part in anything on the 22nd of April either.  They didn't

11     help us at all, us in Ilidza.  They were rather reserved.  Also here they

12     hardly did anything."

13             Now, Mr. Prstojevic, his evidence makes clear that he remembered

14     this as a TO operation and, in fact, that you were the TO commander, and

15     that appears to be consistent with what's in this conversation.  Can you

16     explain how it is -- do you have any explanation for your claim that you

17     never spoke to Mr. Prstojevic, you weren't the TO commander, and you have

18     no recollection of this operation?

19        A.   Well, I don't know what else I could tell you other than what I

20     have already said.  I know Nedjeljko Prstojevic superficially.  Again, I

21     know that he lived and worked in Ilidza, but I do not recall having had a

22     conversation with him, and I'm not aware of there having been an

23     operation outside the Sarajevo bypass, that didn't it include the

24     Sarajevo bypass, and I do want to help here, but there was no hierarchy,

25     there were no appointments that were made until the units arrived.  We're

Page 29681

 1     dealing with reserve officers, prominent individuals, locals, who

 2     established defence lines to defend Serbian homes and this did not move.

 3     There was no movement of any kind.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Just on that point of geography if we could have P5955 on

 5     the screen.  This is the map that you marked with your line of defence

 6     that we discussed earlier and I'd just like to get you to mark some of

 7     the locations that are discussed in this intercept where Momir Garic

 8     reports where his men are fighting, which are -- he says:

 9             "Vrbanja, Grbavica, Ivan Krndelj and all the way down to

10     Elektroprivreda."

11             So if we could zoom in a bit more.  And if we could move down a

12     little bit -- no, the other way, sorry.  Up a little bit.  Right around

13     if we could put the -- where it says Vraca and the -- that's perfect.

14             Now, Mr. Garic, I'm going to ask you to mark some of the

15     locations referred to in this intercept and the first one is the

16     Vrbanja bridge.  Could you put a V where the Vrbanja bridge is, please.

17        A.   I can't see this very clearly --

18        Q.   Perhaps we could zoom in on Grbavica a little -- one more time.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Garic, could you wait a minute until assisted by

20     our usher.  We'll zoom in a bit further on Grbavica.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  So that we can still see the red line and the

22     area of Grbavica and the area of the Miljacka river.  That would be --

23     that's perfect.

24        Q.   Are you able to see better now, Mr. Garic, where the Vrbanja

25     bridge is?

Page 29682

 1        A.   Yes, I can see it now.  This is where the river flows --

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could come --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to speak into the

 4     microphone as the interpreter can't hear him.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, I would like to zoom out again because now

 6     we're losing locations on the map I need to have the witness mark.

 7             Sorry, before the witness marks the map, I would like to zoom out

 8     again.  Thanks.  That looks perfect.

 9        Q.   Mr. Garic, can you see the Vrbanja bridge --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.

11             Yes.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:

14        Q.   And if you could mark it with a V.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And if you could mark Ivan Krndelj Street, which probably has a

17     different name on this map than it had at the time, but if you could

18     recognise that street.  If you can't find it, that's fine.  How about

19     Elektroprivreda, can you see where that location was at the time on this

20     map; and if you can see it, if you could mark it with an E.

21        A.   Elektroprivreda, is that right?

22        Q.   Yes, that's right.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   And if you could put a circle around the neighbourhood of

25     Grbavica.

Page 29683

 1        A.   The Grbavica neighbourhood.

 2        Q.   Yes, please.

 3        A.   Well, this is Grbavica.  The line goes down Zagrebacka Street,

 4     Sana Mrkica [phoen], Zagrebacka.  This would be the area.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And if you could just sign and date that in the bottom

 6     right-hand corner.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if that could be admitted.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the screen?

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:

10        Q.   Yes, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Prosecution exhibit.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5956, Your Honours.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:

15        Q.   I know you've said you don't recall an operation, a TO operation,

16     in this area.  But it's -- and you noted that it was clearly beyond the

17     line of defence that you had marked.  So if there was an operation in

18     this area on the 21st of April, I take it that would have been an

19     offensive operation by the TO; is that right?

20        A.   I am repeating that there was no operation of any kind, no

21     offensive was launched.  There was no operation either.  The

22     Territorial Defence members didn't go beyond the Sarajevo bypass.  I

23     mentioned places, Vrbanja, Grbavica.  This wasn't done until the

24     professional army arrived.  Perhaps certain individuals went there, but

25     the Territorial Defence never did.  I'm speaking about the 22nd of April.

Page 29684

 1     It didn't move anywhere.  It didn't have any equipment.  It didn't have

 2     the men.  It didn't have the knowledge.  It didn't have the weapons.  It

 3     had nothing.  It's when professional military units arrived sometime

 4     around the middle of May that they went to Grbavica for the reasons I

 5     have already mentioned.  In order to prove tactical positions -- well,

 6     it's not much of a tactical position, and in order to protect the

 7     inhabitants whose ethnicity was still mixed.  In Grbavica there were

 8     Croats, Muslims, and Serbs.  It was in order to protect the inhabitants

 9     who were living in Grbavica at the time.  And there were paramilitary

10     Muslim individuals and extremists who entered the area and looted the

11     property that belonged to the people who lived there and were the cause

12     of problems.

13        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Garic, again I'd like to -- our time is limited, if

14     you could please try to focus your answers as much as possible on my

15     specific questions.  I'd like to look at another conversation, but I'll

16     just -- -- the transcript of this one which is P5705.  This is a

17     transcript of another conversation on the same day, the

18     21st of April, 1992, between Prstojevic and an unknown male.  And we can

19     see at the outset Prstojevic calls and asks:

20             "Is Garic there?"

21             And that's about three lines down.

22             And is told:

23             "Garic went to Pale."

24             "All right.  Who am I talking to?"

25             "I am one of his associates," is the response.

Page 29685

 1             And Prstojevic responds:

 2             "All right.  This is Prstojevic speaking, commander of

 3     Crisis Staff Ilidza.

 4             "Is that so?

 5             "Yes."

 6             And then the unknown male says:

 7             "So, Prstojevic, what's up over there?"

 8             And Prstojevic says:

 9             "Well, it's good.  I sent them the manpower over there."

10             And the male says:

11             "We didn't ... oh, that's from Kasindol; right?

12             "Yes.

13             "Yes, yes, we got there that."

14             And Prstojevic says:

15             "...  where are they, tell me? "

16             And the male says:

17             "But they are kind of scattered around.  This guy told me that

18     for the part that he received that some of them stayed and that there's

19     about ten of his own men and the rest of them returned."

20             And Prstojevic asks:

21             "Tell me, are the fights still going on down there?"

22             And the response is:

23             "Well, yes.  But that's not very organised.  The police doesn't

24     want to come out and do their job.  One part of the territory is already

25     taken, but the police doesn't want to come out so the people ...  I don't

Page 29686

 1     know what to tell you.  We have problems there."

 2             And Prstojevic says:

 3             "Tell me, how far will they go.  Did you come to the left bank of

 4     the Miljacka river?"

 5             And the response is:

 6             "Yes, this part is taken almost to the Miljacka river.  But the

 7     upper part, Ivan Krndelj Street, that's still not taken."

 8             And Prstojevic asks:

 9             "Did you cut through Vrbanja?"

10             And the answer is:

11             "Yes."

12             And Prstojevic says:

13             "And are you in control there?"

14             And the response is:

15             "Well, we are for the moment but the police still didn't come

16     out, so the civilians are holding that, fuck."

17             And Prstojevic says:

18             "Territorial Defence members?"  He asks.

19             "And the response is:

20             "Well, yes."

21             And Prstojevic says:

22             "All right, but the police should come out."

23             And the unknown male responds:

24             "Of course it should, but it's not, that's the problem.  So

25     Krajisnik called him and he went up there so they can agree on them doing

Page 29687

 1     their job and if they don't want ... fuck it, they are not going anything

 2     for the last 20 days."

 3             And the conversation continues.

 4             Now, they're clearly talking about the same operation in the same

 5     area we just saw because they mention the Miljacka, Ivan Krndelj Street,

 6     and Vrbanja; right?

 7        A.   Yes, they mentioned them.

 8        Q.   And it's confirmed in this conversation that it is

 9     Territorial Defence members who are engaged.  I know you said earlier

10     that you didn't think there was Territorial Defence operation in this

11     area at this time, but does this -- seeing this transcript refresh your

12     memory about that?

13        A.   This transcript doesn't help me at all.  I am repeating once

14     again with full responsibility that the Territorial Defence up until the

15     time when the regular army arrived was not moved.  Perhaps certain

16     individuals moved, who knows for what reason.  There were individuals who

17     moved, went down, but as for the lines, as for where the

18     Territorial Defence was located, they didn't have the men.  They didn't

19     have the equipment.  They didn't have enough men to go there.  There were

20     no actions, no operations.  The status quo was preserved, that's all.

21     All they did was wait until the units arrived.  So I've repeated what

22     I've already said, but I don't know what else to tell you, believe me.

23        Q.   Okay.  Also in this intercept we've seen the intercept of,

24     Prstojevic first asked to Garic and he was told Garic went to Pale.  And

25     then later in the conversation the same person explains that the police

Page 29688

 1     don't want to come out - so it's the Territorial Defence holding the

 2     positions - and he says:

 3             "So Krajisnik called him and he went up there so they can agree

 4     on them doing their job."

 5             Do you recall around this time going to Pale to speak with

 6     Mr. Krajisnik to get some assistance for your unit?

 7        A.   As I have said, I often went to Pale in order to deal with

 8     certain issues that concern my livelihood.  My family and my two children

 9     who were 2 or 3 years old and my parents had to be taken to Pale.  I had

10     to find accommodation for them there.  So I often went to plead, I often

11     went to Pale, and as for Mr. Krajisnik I think -- well, I don't think, I

12     was in his office on one occasion.  I spoke to him over the phone on one

13     occasion.  And the subject of our discussion concerned my living

14     conditions, or rather, living conditions for my family, my wife, my two

15     sons, and my parents at the time.  That is the only occasion on which I

16     was in Mr. Krajisnik's office and I believe that I spoke to him over the

17     phone on one occasion, but the conversation concerned my family problems

18     and solving them so that my family could live in an independent manner.

19        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to look at another intercepted conversation again

20     from the 21st of April, 1992, and this is 65 ter 30705.  And we'll play

21     the intercept, Mr. Garic, and then I'll ask you some questions.

22                           [Intercept played]

23             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

24             "Unidentified female:  Good afternoon.

25             "Unidentified male:  Good afternoon.

Page 29689

 1             "Unidentified female:  Could I speak with Mr. Garic?

 2             "Unidentified male:  And who is this?

 3             "Unidentified female:  Mr. Krajisnik's cabinet.

 4             "Unidentified male:  Hold on, please.  Hold on.

 5             "Momo Garic:  Hello?

 6             "Unidentified female:  Yes.

 7             "Momo Garic:  Good afternoon.

 8             "Unidentified female:  Good afternoon.

 9             "Momo Garic:  Garic, Novo Sarajevo.

10             "Unidentified female:  Hold on, please.

11             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  Hello?

12             "Momo Garic:  Hello?

13             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  Is this Momo?

14             "Momo Garic:  Yes, it is.

15             "How are you?

16             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  Tell me.

17             "I'm all right.  Are you all right?

18             "Momo Garic:  Well, I'm okay.

19             "Well, there's some problems.  Could you receive me up there for

20     a brief meeting?

21             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  Well, sure, no problem.

22             "Momo Garic:  You could, right?

23             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  Sure.

24             "Momo Garic:  All right, I'll come them.  I'll find some vehicle

25     and I'll come them.

Page 29690

 1             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  All right, Momo.  What's the situation like

 2     up there?

 3              "Momo Garic:  Well, it's all right for the time being.  We've

 4     had some casualties and many wounded.

 5             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  You did?  Well, are our men withdrawing from

 6     up there?

 7             "Momo Garic:  No, no, but the co-operation here is not on a high

 8     level.  I don't know why.  They are --

 9             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  All right, Momo.  Come here.  Let's not

10     discuss this over the phone.

11             "Momo Garic:  All right.

12             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  We'll arrange things here.

13             "Momo Garic:  All right.

14             "Momcilo Krajisnik:  Deal.

15             "Momo Garic:  Bye."

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:

17        Q.   Okay.  Here the speaker identifies himself as Garic from

18     Novo Sarajevo and Krajisnik refers to him as Momo.  And the two discuss

19     the situation, and Momo Garic says that:

20             "The situation is all right for the time being.  We've had some

21     casualties and many wounded."

22             And Krajisnik says:

23             "Well, are our men withdrawing from up there?"

24             And Garic responds:

25             "No, but the co-operation is not on a high level."

Page 29691

 1             Now, you said you remembered that you spoke with Mr. Krajisnik

 2     over the phone at the time and that you met with him in Pale, although

 3     you claim this was about the accommodation for your family.  Does

 4     listening to this conversation refresh your recollection as to discussing

 5     the situation that your TO unit was in at the time with Mr. Krajisnik?

 6        A.   Well, I will repeat what I said.  I spoke to Mr. Krajisnik only

 7     in order to solve my family problems.  As for this subject matter, well

 8     believe me I do not remember having had such a discussion.  The voice

 9     isn't similar.  It was just because of my family problems, in order to

10     ensure that they could have an independent existence.  They had been

11     displaced.  They were -- weren't in their house in Pofalici and that was

12     the period during which I went to Pale on a number of occasions.  I did

13     what I could.  I didn't have a car.  I borrowed a car, hitchhiked there,

14     so this concerned my family problems and nothing else.  And while we were

15     above the Sarajevo bypass where the Territorial Defence members were

16     located, well naturally there were quite a few wounded there because

17     there was significant provocations carried out by Muslim paramilitary

18     formations from tall buildings in Grbavica and from behind us where

19     Debelo Brdo was located.  So there were men who were wounded.  As far as

20     I can remember, there were men who were killed too.  These were men who

21     exposed themselves to enemy fire.  They would move around freely and

22     didn't abide by the instructions they had been issued.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let me just make sure I have your position on this clear.

24     Notwithstanding the fact that the speaker here identifies himself as

25     Momo Garic from Novo Sarajevo and notwithstanding the fact that you were

Page 29692

 1     a respected member of your TO at the time and this Momo Garic is

 2     describing a situation where there are casualties and wounded, it's your

 3     position that this isn't you and you never made such a phone call -- or

 4     you never had such a phone conversation with Mr. Krajisnik.  Is that how

 5     I understand your evidence?

 6        A.   Yes, you've understood me.  I've understood your explanation too.

 7     And let me repeat what I have said.  I had contact with Mr. Krajisnik

 8     only in order to solve family problems.  On one occasion this was in his

 9     office in Pale and on one occasion I spoke to him over the phone.  I

10     didn't speak to him about the issue that is referred to here.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender that intercept, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5957, Your Honours.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, you knew a Rade Milinkovic from Novo Sarajevo and

19     he was, in fact, a MUP commander in Novo Sarajevo; is that right?

20        A.   I knew Rade Milinkovic.  He was a policeman, a MUP commander --

21     no, as far as I know he was never a MUP commander.

22        Q.   Well, in your interview with the OTP in 2004 you said you were --

23     played an intercept purporting to be between you and Rade Milinkovic and

24     you said:

25             "I know Milinkovic, because if that's the same Milinkovic I know

Page 29693

 1     him from Novo Sarajevo.  Milinkovic was one of the commanders of MUP."

 2             So in 2004 you said that Milinkovic was a MUP commander.  Is that

 3     right?  Or is it now your evidence that he was just a member of the MUP?

 4        A.   Well, perhaps I said that, but I don't remember.  I don't recall

 5     him being a MUP commander.  I know he was a member of the Novo Sarajevo

 6     police station.  I do know that he was a policeman.  As for him being a

 7     MUP commander, well, no, I don't recall that.  I know that he was a

 8     professional policeman and he worked in the Novo Sarajevo police station.

 9     The headquarters was behind the Novo Sarajevo municipality at Malta, but

10     I don't recall him having been a commander of the MUP.

11        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to play another intercept again from the

12     21st of April, 1992, and this is 65 ter 32780.  And again, if you could

13     listen to that conversation and I'll ask you a few questions.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The French interpreters booth kindly asks to be

15     provided with a transcript.  Thank you.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I understand that transcripts were provided to

18     the booths -- all the booths.

19                           [Intercept played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

21             "Rade Milinkovic:  Hello?

22             "Unidentified female:  Is that the local community?

23             "Rade Milinkovic:  Yes.

24             "Unidentified female:  Garic would like to talk to you.  Just a

25     moment ... Momo.

Page 29694

 1             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

 2             "Rade Milinkovic:  Tell me, Momo.

 3             "Momo Garic:  Rade!

 4             "Yes.

 5             "Momo Garic:  Tell me, can we get started?  Some of our special

 6     guys for fuck's sake?

 7             "Rade Milinkovic:  We called them.

 8             "Momo Garic:  And what did they say?

 9             "Rade Milinkovic:  Nothing call them 611.

10             "Momo Garic:  Did Milinkovic call them?

11             "Rade Milinkovic:  Who?

12             "Momo Garic:  Milinkovic.

13             "Rade Milinkovic:  It's me.

14             "Momo Garic:  Oh, it's you.

15             "Rade Milinkovic:  It's me.

16             "Momo Garic:  So what did they say?

17             "Rade Milinkovic:  Call 611-338.

18             "Momo Garic:  What did I do if you did not succeed?

19             "Rade Milinkovic:  Call them.  You are the TO commander.

20             "Momo Garic:  Oh, my goodness, my goodness.  Do you have more

21     cars.

22             "Rade Milinkovic:  No.  They all check if there are any.

23             "Momo Garic:  Sorry.

24             "Rade Milinkovic:  They will know if there are any.  They already

25     sent to the terrain what they had.

Page 29695

 1             "Momo Garic:  Yes, but are there any more?

 2             "Rade Milinkovic:  Well, ask them.

 3             "Momo Garic:  Anyway.

 4             "Is Krstovic up there?

 5             "Rade Milinkovic:  Yes, he is.

 6             "Momo Garic:  Send him to see me.

 7             "Rade Milinkovic:  Fine.

 8             "Momo Garic:  He organised all of this.

 9             "Rade Milinkovic:  Okay."

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:

11        Q.   Okay.  Again, Mr. Garic, we see this is the 21st of April and

12     Momo Garic is again looking for assistance, this time from

13     Rade Milinkovic who you have testified was a MUP officer in Novo

14     Sarajevo, so again this is dealing with your area.  And you are

15     identified here as -- or Momo Garic is identified here by first and last

16     name.  So again my question is:  This is you, is it not?

17        A.   I'm saying that I don't remember.  My name is Momir.  As far as I

18     could see, this would be either the third or the fourth suspicious

19     conversation in my view.  That person should have spent the entire day on

20     the telephone.  In one conversation it's about Pale, the second one

21     calling Krajisnik, and that's all on the 21st of April.  It doesn't

22     really make much sense.  All of that was happening on the 21st April.  An

23     unknown person is saying somebody went to Pale, then he speaks to

24     Krajisnik.  I really don't -- clear about that -- I'm not clear about

25     that.  I can't remember.  I told you who I spoke to, and I claim with

Page 29696

 1     full responsibility that I don't remember these particular conversations.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  What I can't understand, Mr. Garic, is that your

 3     statement that your name was Momir.  Were you not called amongst your

 4     friends by the nickname Momo?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Moka or Moca, Mocilo,

 6     that's what people called me, not Momo.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   Mr. Garic, were you aware that the Defence actually listed you as

 9     a witness on their witness list under the name Momo Garic?

10        A.   Repeat the question.  I did not hear you properly.

11        Q.   We received a list of witnesses from the Defence, and you're

12     listed on that witness list as Momo Garic, and that's number 143 of the

13     Defence 65 ter filing.  Were you aware that the Defence referred to you

14     as Momo Garic?

15        A.   I did not know the Defence was referring to me as Momo Garic.  I

16     signed my statement and everything else as Momir Garic.  I didn't know

17     that they listed me as Momo Garic.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this intercept as well,

20     please.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5958, Your Honours.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   And just to go back to your earlier answer in relation to this

Page 29697

 1     conversation, you said --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt you.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have more intercepts to cover?

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  One or two, I think.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I would like the copies of the intercepts to be

 7     delivered to the French booth.  I hope the Registrar could make sure.

 8             Let's continue.

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I understand that sufficient copies were provided

11     and they have to just be distributed among the booths, but maybe the

12     interpreters can confirm.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I heard that, but I wanted to make sure that

14     happens.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.

16             JUDGE KWON:  During -- in the meantime.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:

19        Q.   Mr. Garic, just in response -- in relation to your earlier answer

20     when I put to you that this was you in the conversation, you said this is

21     the third or fourth suspicious conversation.  That person should have

22     spend the entire day on the telephone, and you said it doesn't really

23     make much sense.  Is it your position that one or more of these

24     intercepts was fabricated in order to frame you in some kind of way?

25        A.   I don't know why should anybody frame me.  I am a good man and

Page 29698

 1     why would anybody fabricate anything against me?  But this is suspicious

 2     if that person went to Krajisnik and that was not a line from

 3     Lukavica-Trebevic-Pale.  You had to take a macadam road across villages,

 4     across Tvrndic [phoen].  It would have taken at least four or five hours

 5     to go to Pale and come back to Pale.  And this conversation on the 21st

 6     of -- and we've heard already three or four such conversations recorded

 7     on the 21st.  My personal opinion is that -- I'm not a sinful man.  Why

 8     would anybody frame me?  I have not done anything wrong.  Why would

 9     anyone frame me?  I really don't know.

10        Q.   Okay.  So let's look at another intercept from that day and it's

11     65 ter 32778 and perhaps before it's played the booths could confirm that

12     they have the transcript.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:

15        Q.   So again, Mr. Garic, this is another intercept from the

16     21st of April, 1992, and I'd just like you to listen to it and then I'll

17     ask you some questions.

18                           [Intercept played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

20             "Ranko:  Hello?

21             "Ranka:  Yes.

22             "Ranko:  Ranka, is that you?

23             "Ranka:  It's you.

24             "Ranko:  Let me talk to Momo Garic.

25             "Ranka:  Here.

Page 29699

 1             "Ranko:  Now, urgently.

 2             "Momo Garic:  Yes?

 3             "Ranko:  Oh, Momo, it's you?

 4             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

 5             "Ranko:  Ranko speaking.

 6             "Momo Garic:  Tell me.

 7             "Ranko:  Who issued the order for us to retreat now?

 8             "Momo Garic:  Who did?  Nobody did.  And where from.  Where from

 9     to --

10             "Ranko:  Fucking hell.

11             "Momo Garic:  Where are you calling from?

12             "Ranko:  We are stationed.  Momo!

13             "Pay attention here.

14             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

15             "Ranko:  Rave Jankovica Street number 117.

16             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

17             "Ranko:  That's a building across the street from Palma.  There

18     are people in Palma here.  We took three to four buildings.

19             "Momo Garic:  Are you with Dragisa?

20             "Ranko:  We are all alive and well?

21             "Momo Garic:  Yes.  Is Dragisa there?

22             "Ranko:  No, he is not.  Dragisa is in 'Palma.'

23             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

24             "Ranko:  We have everything, the view of the entire surrounding.

25             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

Page 29700

 1             "Ranko:  Send us some people or reinforcement or do something for

 2     God's sake.

 3             "Momo Garic:  We are bringing them in.  People from all over are

 4     demanding reinforcement.  We don't have enough people now for God's sake.

 5             "Ranko:  Well, send me the army for God's sake.

 6             "Momo Garic:  All right.

 7             "Ranko:  Fucking hell ... all right, we'll stay in touch.

 8             "Momo Garic:  All right.  Listen.

 9             "Ranko:  Yes.

10             "Momo Garic:  Is Dragisa there?

11             "Ranko:  No, Dragisa is down there, in 'Palma' building.

12             "Momo Garic:  But are you in contact with him?

13             "Ranko:  Nobody is in contact with anybody anywhere, man.

14             "Momo Garic:  All right."

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:

16        Q.   Okay, Mr. Garic, here is person called Ranko calls and asks to

17     speak to Momo Garic and he is put through, and they proceed to have a

18     conversation.  Ranko says that he's stationed at Rave Jankovica Street,

19     across the street from Palma.  Now, Palma is a bakery in Grbavica near

20     the stadium and Rade Jankovica Street is a street in Grbavica near Palma;

21     is that right?

22        A.   Palma is not a bakery.  Palma is a pastry shop, but indeed it is

23     close to Rade Jankovica Street if that's the Palma we're talking about.

24     I don't know if there is any other.  I lived in Sarajevo.  It is a pastry

25     shop not a bakery.

Page 29701

 1        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  And here Ranko informs

 2     Momo Garic that he's stationed there, and he says:

 3             "Send us some people, reinforcement, or do something for God's

 4     sake."

 5             And Momo Garic responds:

 6             "We are bringing them in.  People from all over are demanding

 7     reinforcements.  We don't have enough people now for God's sake."

 8             And we've seen conversations between Momo Garic and Mr. Krajisnik

 9     about reinforcements and between Momo Garic and Prstojevic about

10     reinforcements and Momo Garic and Velibor in Ilidza about reinforcements.

11     So again, I'll put it to you, Mr. Garic, that this is your area, your

12     operation, and this is you speaking, is it not?

13        A.   This was my sector where the Territorial Defence was up to the

14     bypass and I repeat again, save for a few individuals -- I don't know who

15     this Ranko is let alone that I should have spoken to him.  And again,

16     it's the same date, the 21st of April.  I really do not understand.

17     Despite everything, I don't understand.  I'm not clear on what this is.

18     I claim before this auditorium that Territorial Defence, that its members

19     did not go down beyond the Sarajevo bypass before mid-May.  There may

20     have been some individuals who did that for God knows what reasons.  But

21     the territorials as a group preserved the status quo.  They held their

22     positions in front of their homes, in front of their settlements.  They

23     took possession of the Serbian land and they didn't move before the

24     arrival of the professional army.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this intercept as well,

Page 29702

 1     please.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             This will be admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5959, Your Honours.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 7        Q.   Okay, Mr. Garic, I'm going to move to another topic now which --

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Perhaps that's a good time for a break,

 9     Your Honours, if it suits the Court.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  How much longer do you need, Ms. Gustafson?

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I think about probably the next -- the entire

12     next session.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll break for 45 minutes and resume at quarter

14     past 1.00.

15                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And just before we

19     begin, I know I mentioned I would probably need the whole session.  I

20     think, having looked at the material I'd like to cover again over the

21     break, I think it's more like an hour.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, I'd like to switch topics and discuss the period

23     of time after your TO unit was subsumed within the -- first within the

24     216th Brigade of the JNA, which then became the 1st Romanija Brigade of

25     the SRK.  And you said earlier today that you didn't have an appointment

Page 29703

 1     in the JNA, but you weren't a foot soldier either.  You said:

 2             "I moved around.  I moved around the sector.  I would go to the

 3     command of the brigade but, I repeat, they gave me a lot more free time."

 4             So I understand from your answer that you had -- you were at the

 5     brigade command at times, so I assume you had some contact with the

 6     commander of the brigade, Dragomir Milosevic; is that right?

 7        A.   That's correct, yes.  In that territory that we have discussed

 8     there was Mr. Dragomir Milosevic's brigade there and I did have contacts

 9     with him but not that often.

10        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to play another intercept this time from the

11     20th of May, 1992, and this is 65 ter 32781, and if you can listen to

12     that intercept and I'll ask you some questions.

13                           [Intercept played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

15             "Good afternoon.

16             "Is Garic somewhere around?

17             "Who's calling?

18             "Milosevic.

19             "Yes.

20             "So how is it going?  Are you doing your job?

21             "This one came from Lukavica and they departed.  They will be

22     here soon.  And that one, Deva, who left with you said that he saw them

23     up there lining up.

24             "Fine.  I saw that up there.

25             "Yes.

Page 29704

 1             "There, where Delevoj and I went to ...

 2             "Yes.

 3             "And there is nothing at Lakic's.

 4             "They are on their way.  The colleague who was informing there

 5     has just the arrived.  They are on their way.  They should be here any

 6     minute.

 7             "Fine.

 8             "It is postponed a bit.  We had a very short time in it.

 9             "We have a meeting at 1800.

10             "Until then everything should be done to sort out things

11     completely.

12             "Good.

13             "Please engage our guys a bit more and find out, call, search,

14     and so on.

15             "We have to put the things where they belong to a

16     hundred per cent.

17             "Bye.

18             "Yes, we will.

19             "Bye."

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:

21        Q.   Mr. Garic, is this an example of the contact you had with

22     Dragomir Milosevic at the time?

23        A.   When I did have contacts, I would pop over to the brigade

24     command.  It would happen [as interpreted] often, but I did pop over

25     there.  I would see Mr. Milosevic.  That was his zone of responsibility.

Page 29705

 1     I absolutely -- this does not resemble my voice at all.  I did have

 2     contacts.  I would pop over to the command brigade.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that there is a mistake

 4     in the transcript.  The witness said:  It would not happen often.  I

 5     didn't go there often.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 7        Q.   So again, notwithstanding the fact that you had contacts with

 8     Dragomir Milosevic at the time, you don't believe that this is you

 9     speaking in this intercept; is that right?

10        A.   This does not resemble my voice at all.  Believe me.  I don't

11     remember.  I don't remember this conversation, but I did sometimes go to

12     the brigade command.  I had contacts with him and the other officers in

13     the brigade command who were there but not often.

14        Q.   Okay.  So when Dragomir Milosevic says in this conversation:

15             "Okay.  We have a meeting at 1800 hours."

16             And Momo Garic responds:

17             "Yes."

18             That is consistent with the type of contact you had, what you

19     referred to as popping over to the brigade command; is that right?

20        A.   This does not resemble my voice.  I did not have telephone

21     contacts.  I would pop over to the brigade command, and there I would see

22     Mr. Milosevic and the officers who were members of that unit's command.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender that intercept.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 29706

 1             That will be admitted.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5960, Your Honours.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 4        Q.   And now I'd like to play you another intercept from a few days

 5     before this.  This is the 12th of May, 1992, and this is 65 ter 32783.

 6     If you could again listen to this and I'll ask you some questions.

 7                           [Intercept played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 9             "Unidentified male:  Yes.

10             "Radmila Knezevic:  Is that the Crisis Staff?

11             "Unidentified male:  Pardon?

12             "Radmila Knezevic:  Is that the Crisis Staff?

13             "Unidentified male:  Yes, it is.

14             "Radmila Knezevic:  This is the Serbian MUP.  Radmila

15     speaking ...  is Momo Garic there?

16             "Unidentified male:  Just a moment.

17             "Momo Garic:  Yes?

18             "Radmila Knezevic:  Listen, we have information that Colonel

19     Milosevic is there with you.

20             "Momo Garic:  Yes, he is with me.

21             "Radmila Knezevic:  Can I speak to him, please.

22             "Momo Garic:  Yes, just a moment.

23             "Dragomir Milosevic:  Yes, Milosevic is here.

24             "Momo Garic:  Just a moment.

25             "Dragomir Milosevic:  Yes ... Milosevic speaking.

Page 29707

 1             "Radmila Knezevic:  Good morning, this is Radmila Knezevic from

 2     the Serbian MUP, a short while ago you were here.

 3             "Dragomir Milosevic:  Yes, yes, I was.  I need you to send

 4     someone senior to the staff.

 5             "Radmila Knezevic:  This is precisely the information I wanted to

 6     give you.  You have probably left in order to attend an urgent meeting,

 7     but in two minutes I managed to find the names of the people.

 8             "Dragomir Milosevic:  I know.

 9             "Radmila Knezevic:  They are making the rounds.  It will last

10     half an hour and then they will be back there.  Where are you going to be

11     when they get back.

12             "Dragomir Milosevic:  Look, let someone get in touch with them.

13     They are on the move and then they should come back.

14             "Well, I will wait.  Is there anybody --

15             "Radmila Knezevic:  Look, I found a man not from the high

16     leadership but he can come if it's a real emergency.

17             "Dragomir Milosevic:  Okay, send him immediately and you can keep

18     calling him via --

19             "Radmila Knezevic:  Don't worry.

20             "Dragomir Milosevic:  Very well.

21             "Radmila Knezevic:  Have a nice day.

22             "Dragomir Milosevic:  Bye."

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, here we have Radmila Knezevic calling from the

25     Serbian MUP asking if it's the Crisis Staff, and she says:

Page 29708

 1             "Is that Mr. Momo Garic?"

 2             And Momo Garic says:

 3             "Yes."

 4             And she says:

 5             "Listen, we have information that Colonel Milosevic is there with

 6     you."

 7             And Momo Garic says:

 8             "Yes, he is."

 9             Now, is this an example of your contact with Dragomir Milosevic

10     at the time?  Do you recall being at the Crisis Staff with him around the

11     12th of May, 1992?

12        A.   As far as I know, the headquarters of the Crisis Staff was in

13     Novo Sarajevo municipality.  At that time, on the 12th of May, the

14     headquarters was no longer in Novo Sarajevo because we were not in that

15     territory.  We were in the territory of Vraca.  And I suppose at that

16     time the Crisis Staff had some meetings, perhaps in Lukavica local

17     community or Vraca or something of the sort, but certainly not in the

18     territory of Novo Sarajevo.  The headquarters was indeed there until the

19     breakout of the civil war.  Again, the voice does not resemble mine.  I

20     repeat that I had contacts with him not often and when I did I would go

21     to the headquarters of his brigade.

22        Q.   Okay.  Vraca was in Novo Sarajevo; right, Mr. Garic?

23        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   And in this conversation nobody says anything about where the

25     Crisis Staff headquarters are.  It's just confirmed that it is the

Page 29709

 1     Crisis Staff.  So I'm not sure I understand your answer about where the

 2     headquarters of the Crisis Staff were at the time.  How is that relevant

 3     to this conversation?

 4        A.   As far as I'm personally concerned, this doesn't have anything to

 5     do with the conversation because I don't think that I spoke to him of the

 6     fall.  But I told you that the headquarters were in Novo Sarajevo until

 7     the war, and when the war broke out the people who were members of the

 8     Crisis Staff they crossed over to the Serbian side and to the Serbian

 9     territory, and that is the side of Vraca in the direction of

10     Gornji Kovacevici, Miljevici, Lukavica, and Tilava.  That's where those

11     people stayed.  There were meetings, I suppose some took place in local

12     communes as well.  Not all of them took place at the headquarters.

13        Q.   Okay.  So just to confirm your position, do you or do you not

14     recall being with Dragomir Milosevic at the Crisis Staff sometime around

15     the 12th of May, 1992, wherever that Crisis Staff was headquartered at

16     the time?

17        A.   I don't remember Mr. Milosevic appearing at the headquarters, or

18     rather, this outpost of the Crisis Staff.  As far as I know, he was in

19     the command and in the field.  As for him appearing in the temporary

20     Crisis Staff, where the Crisis Staff would be convened, well, in this

21     case I really can't remember.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  I'd like to tender this intercept as well,

23     please.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, this will be admitted.

Page 29710

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5961, Your Honours.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 3        Q.   And I'd like to now play another intercept from three days after

 4     this one, this is the 15th of May, 1992, and it's 65 ter 32779.  And

 5     if -- once again, if you could just listen and then I'll ask you some

 6     questions.

 7                           [Intercept played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 9             "Unidentified male 1:  Hello.

10             "Unidentified male 2:  Is this the Pajaco headquarters?

11             "Unidentified male 1:  Yes.

12             "Unidentified male 2:  Is Momo Garic there?

13             "Unidentified male 1:  Not at the moment.

14             "Unidentified male 2:  Colonel Gagovic wants to speak to him.

15             "Unidentified male 1:  Colonel, comrade, how about his deputy?

16             "Unidentified male 2:  Okay, here he is.  The Colonel is here.

17     Hold on a second.

18             "Budo:  Good afternoon.

19             "Milosav Gagovic:  Gagovic.

20             "Budo:  How are you?

21             "Milosav Gagovic:  Fine, thanks, and you?

22             "Budo:  So, so.

23             "Milosav Gagovic:  Is Momo there?

24             "Budo:  Momo went to find Milosevic, tour these positions a

25     little and so we had some ...

Page 29711

 1             "Milosav Gagovic:  Listen, let him give the three 120-millimetre

 2     mortars which you are not using now to the guy who is coming back up to

 3     him.

 4             "Budo:  Just one thing.

 5             "Milosav Gagovic:  Sorry?

 6             "Budo:  When is the guy coming?

 7             "Milosav Gagovic:  He's about to arrive up there.

 8             "Budo:  Now?

 9             "Milosav Gagovic:  Right.

10             "Budo:  But, okay, let him come and we will send someone too.

11             "Milosav Gagovic:  Where are they?

12             "Budo:  Down at the base.  Our logistics guy he should --

13             "Milosav Gagovic:  Well, you see to it.

14             "Budo:  Let him come here.  He has a car.  He has everything.

15             "Milosav Gagovic:  Okay.  He'll get everything.

16             "Budo:  So we will send somebody with him.  I'll write it down

17     and so on.

18             "Milosav Gagovic:  Okay.  Just call when he gets there.

19             "Budo:  Good luck, Colonel.

20             "Milosav Gagovic:  I wish you a long life.  Good-bye!"

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, here Colonel Gagovic calls the Pajaco

23     headquarters, and you mentioned earlier that at least in April Pajaco was

24     a place where the Serb TO would assemble to discuss matters and that was

25     at transcript page 37.  Colonel Gagovic was at the time the assistant

Page 29712

 1     commander for logistics of the JNA 4th Corps; is that right?

 2        A.   I don't know whether he was a colonel or a lieutenant-colonel at

 3     the time.  I don't know which position he occupied, but I and my

 4     comrades, my colleagues, who we contacted in the JNA for help with

 5     protecting the Serbian population did go there to ask for weapons to

 6     defend ourselves from provocations, attacks launched by the Green Berets

 7     at the time that were established in 1991 and to defend against attacks

 8     from other paramilitary formations.  I knew him personally.  I went to

 9     the barracks personally quite frequently.  That's what I can say.

10        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember him giving you three 120-millimetre

11     mortars that he refers to in this conversation?

12        A.   As far as mortars are concerned, these aren't infantry weapons

13     and, no, we didn't have such mortars, we didn't receive them from anyone.

14     What we had consisted of private weapons that were owned by these locals,

15     hunting rifles, and so on and so forth.  As for the weapons issued or

16     distributed by the army, it was a minimum and people retained such

17     weapons as trophies of sorts.

18        Q.   Okay.  Can you explain then why Colonel Gagovic is calling the

19     Pajaco headquarters asking to speak with you, being told:

20             "How about his deputy," speaking to a person named Budo, and

21     telling Budo:

22             "Listen, let him," referring to you, "give the three

23     120-millimetre mortars which you are not using now to the guy who is

24     coming back up to him."

25             Can you reconcile that statement with your claim that you didn't

Page 29713

 1     receive any mortars?

 2        A.   I don't remember having received any mortars.  Let me repeat what

 3     I said.  All we had were weapons that had remained behind classical

 4     infantry weapons, typical infantry weapons, that had been retained as

 5     trophies of sorts.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And when Colonel Gagovic asks for you, he says:

 7             "Is Momo Garic there?"

 8             And is told:

 9             "Not at the moment," and then -- sorry, the person calling on

10     behalf of Colonel Gagovic says:

11             "Colonel Gagovic wants to speak to him."

12             And then the response is:

13             "Colonel, comrade, how about his deputy?"

14             Now, that appears at least to me to be implicit reference to your

15     role as commander and the role of the person identified as Budo as your

16     deputy.  Can you reconcile that comment with your testimony that you had

17     no command position at the time?

18        A.   Well, I knew Colonel Gagovic who was on duty in Lukavica at the

19     barracks, the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks, and let me repeat:  There

20     were no appointments in the Territorial Defence.  This was in mid-May at

21     the time the VRS had been established.  As for this reference to Momo

22     Garic, well they were probably used to the fact that I was in the

23     territory with these members of the Territorial Defence and it's probably

24     because he knew me and knew that I would come and ask for weapons on

25     behalf of the people in order to defend ourselves because it was a

Page 29714

 1     critical period, it was a very difficult period.  We were constantly

 2     confronted with the problem of whether paramilitary formations from

 3     Mojmilo, Novi Grad, and Debelo Brdo would enter our territory and

 4     slaughter the Serbian population.  So it's probably for that reason.  I

 5     don't know of any other possible reason.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender that intercept, please.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5962, Your Honours.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:

12        Q.   Now I'd like to go to Exhibit P1478.  And while that's coming up,

13     Mr. Garic, just one other question.  Do you know a person named

14     Neso Garic?

15        A.   Neso Garic -- well, there's someone called Nenad Garic,

16     Nenad Garic.  I don't know a Neso.  There is a Nenad Garic who lives in

17     Bijeljina.

18        Q.   And is he related to you?

19        A.   Yes, he is.

20        Q.   And could Neso be a nickname for him?

21        A.   Well, Nenad is his name.  Perhaps Neso is his nickname, but it's

22     Nenad Garic.  That's his name.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we go to page 28 of the English and page 29

25     of the B/C/S.

Page 29715

 1        Q.   This document that I'm about to show you, Mr. Garic, is an

 2     extract from General Mladic's notebook from this period of time, and in

 3     particular it's an entry from the 30th of May, 1992 -- oh, sorry, the

 4     B/C/S -- I was referring to the original Cyrillic.  I don't know the page

 5     number of the B/C/S.  Could we go to the original Cyrillic page 29.  Oh,

 6     we seem to have it here in -- typed.  This is better.  Thank you.

 7             Okay.  Here we see notes of General Mladic of a meeting with unit

 8     commanders of the SRK and it says "present" and there's a colon and then

 9     it lists a number of people starting with Dragomir Milosevic.  And if we

10     could move now to the next page in both languages, you can see some

11     additional people listed as being present.  And if we could go to the

12     next page, some further people are being listed as being present.  This

13     is numbers 9 and 10.  And if we could go to the next page --

14        A.   Could we zoom in.  The letters are too small.  I can't see well.

15        Q.   Okay.  The page that I wanted you to see -- the minutes of the

16     entire meeting, but the page that I'd like you to focus on is the next

17     page and if we could go to the next page and zoom in.  And if you could

18     look at number 12 of the people present at this meeting, it says:

19             "Reserve Captain Momir Garic, commander of the Novo Sarajevo

20     Light Brigade (approximately 730 men)."

21             Now, you told us that you were a reserve captain at this time

22     and -- although Mladic here refers to you as a light brigade commander

23     rather than a battalion commander, it is clear from this entry in

24     Mladic's notebook that you were a commander of your unit at the time and,

25     indeed, you were present at a meeting of unit commanders of the SRK on

Page 29716

 1     the 30th of May, 1992, with General Mladic.  Is that right, Mr. Garic?

 2        A.   First of all, I was a captain at the time in the

 3     Territorial Defence, yes, commander of the light Sarajevo brigade.  I'm

 4     not aware of such a unit ever having existed.  There was the

 5     Serbian Territorial Defence.  I do remember having attended that meeting,

 6     however, but as for being the commander of the Novo Sarajevo light

 7     brigade, that's the first time I've heard about this.  So this concerned

 8     the Territorial Defence, in fact, the people who had organised

 9     themselves.  There were no particular names here that were used.  It was

10     the Serbian Territorial Defence.

11        Q.   Well, you've given us evidence that, in fact, the

12     Territorial Defence was incorporated long before this time into the JNA,

13     216th Brigade, which then became the 1st Romanija Brigade.  So according

14     to your evidence, there was no more Territorial Defence at this time.  So

15     this is, is it not, a reference to you being a commander of a VRS unit in

16     the SRK on the 30th of May, 1992, and indeed that is why you were present

17     at this meeting that you acknowledged being present at?

18        A.   I deny that because I know that while I worked in Novo Sarajevo

19     municipality I was involved in all the army establishments, the reserve

20     forces, et cetera.  When the Ministry of Defence appeared, the VRS

21     establishment never had such a Novo Sarajevo light brigade, so I find

22     this quite strange.  The Novo Sarajevo light brigade.  In September 1992,

23     in mid-1992, I became aware of the commands of the units, the

24     establishment of the units, through the Ministry of Defence and this --

25     Novo Sarajevo light brigade never cropped up.  So this is something new

Page 29717

 1     to me and something strange.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And then in light of that answer, do you have any

 3     explanation as to why you were included in a meeting of unit commanders

 4     of the SRK with General Mladic and why General Mladic referred to you as

 5     a commander?  Can you explain that?

 6        A.   I can't.  I don't understand this, but I'm claiming with full

 7     responsibility that there was never a unit that was known by this name.

 8     From the time the VRS was established with its names, codes, and so on

 9     and so forth.  But I'm really not aware of anything of this kind.  It

10     says it had 730 men, that's quite absurd.  In the

11     Tilava-Lukavica-Vraca-Gornji Kovacici-Miljevici-Petrovici area, we never

12     had so many men, although there were some men who weren't fit for

13     military service and also some women.  But this name given to the brigade

14     and the number of men that is specified here is something I can't accept.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to move on to another topic, which is the VRS

16     operation to take Grbavica which you discuss in your statement at

17     paragraph 16.  This is the statement that's been admitted as your

18     evidence.  And you said that this VRS action -- the purpose was to move

19     the line on the left bank of the Miljacka river and gain control of

20     Grbavica.  And you said that the purpose was to protect the Serbian

21     majority population in the Sarajevo suburb of Grbavica, which is next to

22     Vraca and other Serbian suburbs.  And I think you confirmed in your

23     evidence earlier today that Grbavica was an ethnically mixed

24     neighbourhood, where Croats, Serbs, and Muslims lived together; is that

25     right?

Page 29718

 1        A.   That's correct.  They lived together.  There was Serbs, Croats,

 2     and Muslims, all ethnic groups lived together.

 3        Q.   And were you involved in this operation?

 4        A.   I was present, but I did not have the duties of a commander.  I

 5     was there with the people, all those who entered the

 6     1st Romanija Battalion -- well, we discussed this earlier on and I was

 7     one of those who entered that unit.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And you said in your statement at paragraph 16 that when

 9     you established this line you had old trophy infantry weapons and a few

10     automatic rifles.  And you said that -- you took Grbavica with very

11     little fighting, even though as you state in paragraph 17 of your

12     statement that the Muslims had more automatic weapons, hand-held

13     rocket-launchers and small-calibre mortars.  Now, whatever weapons you

14     used in this mid-May operation to take Grbavica, it is the case at this

15     time that the SRK within the VRS was very well armed, including with

16     heavy-calibre weapons.  And that's right, isn't it?

17        A.   The men from the Territorial Defence at that time up to mid-May,

18     well, they rarely received weapons, other weapons, from the army.  From

19     the beginning, from when they started organising these guards, they had

20     these weapons and they had these weapons when they took Grbavica, while

21     in fact they didn't really take it, there wasn't much fighting.  The army

22     had their professional weapons, rifles, and so on and so forth.  But the

23     Territorial Defence members at the time had trophy weapons, personal

24     weapons, hunting rifles, old M48 rifles, and a few automatic rifles.  And

25     it is in this way that they entered the VRS.  They did not, in fact, have

Page 29719

 1     high-calibre weapons or more efficient weapons.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I understand from your answer that you don't dispute that

 3     the professional army at this time had what you called professional

 4     weapons.  Now, do you dispute that the professional army at this time

 5     also had ample heavy-calibre weapons?  And I'm talking about mortars and

 6     artillery specifically.

 7        A.   I don't know.  In the sectors I was in and in the field around

 8     Vraca and other places -- well, I personally saw that they had personal

 9     rifles, semi-automatic rifles, automatic rifles, old M48 rifles.  So

10     these were personal infantry weapons, infantry rifles.  As far as

11     artillery is concerned, I didn't notice any artillery in that sector.  I

12     didn't notice any gun emplacements that were ready to go into action, any

13     artillery ready to go into action.  I believe the artillery was kept in

14     the depth behind the commands.  I think there's the village of Petrovici

15     in the direction of Klek and Trdonici [phoen], I think they were there,

16     but as for the sector of Vraca and Lukavica, I didn't notice any such

17     weapons in that sector and I didn't notice any such weapons being used.

18        Q.   Okay.  So now -- just to go back to this operation to take

19     Grbavica, you said that the purpose was to protect the Serbian majority

20     population there, although you've explained that it was an ethnically

21     mixed neighbourhood.  Now, the Chamber has heard some evidence that the

22     taking of Grbavica was part of the goal of the leadership to control the

23     entire left bank or at least much -- much of the left bank of the

24     Miljacka river.  Did you ever hear any talk like that, that the Serbs

25     should basically control the left side of the Miljacka?

Page 29720

 1        A.   You mentioned the civilian authorities.  I never heard any such

 2     thing from the civilian authorities at the time, but there were certain

 3     rumours and discussions, according to which it was necessary to improve

 4     the tactical position to make it easier to hold those lines.  The river

 5     Miljacka is a sort of natural barrier and those paramilitary formations

 6     couldn't just cross Miljacka and enter Grbavica.  So in order to hold the

 7     lines with greater ease, given that we didn't have sufficient men because

 8     it was an extensive area after all, this had to be done.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to play you another intercept, and this is a

10     long conversation from the 25th of May, 1992.  And because of its length

11     I am just going to play to you certain extracts which will in total be

12     quite lengthy - I apologise for that - but I wanted to give you a fair

13     opportunity to listen to as much of this conversation as possible before

14     I ask you questions.  So again, if you could just listen to these

15     extracts from this conversation on the 25th of May, 1992, and then I'll

16     ask you some questions.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have the number for that?

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Oh, sorry, this is 65 ter 32783.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Is that not what we heard already?

21                           [Intercept played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

23             "Neso Garic:  Good day.

24             "Unidentified male:  Hello.

25             "Neso Garic:  Garic speaking.  Is my family namesake there

Page 29721

 1     anywhere.

 2             "Unidentified male:  Yes, yes.

 3             "Momo Garic:  Yes?

 4             "Neso Garic:  Hello!

 5             "Momo Garic:  Hello!

 6             "Neso Garic:  Where are you?

 7             "Momo Garic:  Well, here I am.

 8             "Neso Garic:  I called you the day before last, you know.

 9             "Momo Garic:  Yes, the lines must have crossed.

10             "Neso Garic:  Well, they did.  It was some kind of indirect

11     connection, damn-it.  Doboj isn't operating.  I'm in Banja Luka now, you

12     know.

13             "Momo Garic:  In Banja Luka.

14             "Neso Garic:  Yes.

15             "Momo Garic:  Seriously?

16             "Neso Garic:  Well I've come along there's this Assembly session

17     here and so they called me, you know.

18             "Momo Garic:  Seriously?

19             "Neso Garic:  Yes.

20             "Momo Garic:  How are you?

21             "Neso Garic:  Well, it's okay.  Thank god.  Well how are things

22     there?

23             "Momo Garic:  Well, so so.

24             "Neso Garic:  Hairy.

25             "Momo Garic:  Well, damn-it.

Page 29722

 1             "Neso Garic:  Well, what on earth happened, man, in Pofalici what

 2     was that?

 3             "Momo Garic:  What was it?  What do I know what it was?

 4             "Neso Garic:  Well, there's no one there to do the linking up to

 5     organise things.

 6             "Momo Garic:  Huh.

 7             "Neso Garic:  Nobody linked anything up.  Nobody's organising

 8     anything.

 9             "Momo Garic:  Yeah, right, nobody.  They've done things badly

10     there.

11             "Neso Garic:  Sorry?

12             "Momo Garic:  Well, they had everything there it's just been --

13     it's just that they weren't unified because to one another they were

14     leaving without one another, running away.  They weren't reporting in

15     seriously.

16             "Hell yeah, man, what did you think?

17             "Neso Garic:  How on earth could that happen?

18             "Momo Garic:  Well, how?  How?

19             "Neso Garic:  Where are the Elezes?

20             "Momo Garic:  I don't know, they're here.

21             "Neso Garic:  And what are they?  Did they manage to escape or

22     what.

23             "Momo Garic:  Well, yeah, they did.

24             "Neso Garic:  Well is there anyone left?

25             "Momo Garic:  Well, they were the last ones to go, man.

Page 29723

 1             "Neso Garic:  Seriously?

 2             "Momo Garic:  Obad there, then this, the people from

 3     Donji Pofalici they scrammed.  Didn't they ask anyone anything.  Soja was

 4     the first one to run, with his wife.

 5             "Neso Garic:  Who?

 6             "Momo Garic:  Soja.

 7             "Neso Garic:  Oh, he got married, did he?

 8             "Momo Garic:  Well, they say he did.

 9             "Neso Garic:  Who to?

10             "Momo Garic:  I don't know, I swear to God.

11             "Neso Garic:  Well, how could he do it, damn-it?

12             "Momo Garic:  I don't know.

13             "Neso Garic:  Why didn't you lot kill him?

14             "Momo Garic:  I didn't even see him, I swear to God.

15             "Neso Garic:  Well, kill him you lot.  Damn!  Damn-it.  Well

16     don't you -- that's the way to deal with such things.  Don't you think

17     that's the way to deal with such things?

18             "Momo Garic:  Yup.

19             "Neso Garic:  Well, he's a deserter an escapee, an Ustasha.

20             "Momo Garic:  Yeah.

21             "Neso Garic:  I've had a son.

22             "Momo Garic:  No kidding?  Well, congratulation, Neso.

23             "Neso Garic:  Thanks.

24             "Momo Garic:  Did everything go well?

25             "Neso Garic:  Yes, thank God.

Page 29724

 1             "Momo Garic:  Oh!

 2             "Neso Garic:  Listen, today I might -- the guy's up from Romanija

 3     will be coming, you know.

 4             "Momo Garic:  Yeah.

 5             "Neso Garic:  I might catch a ride with them by chopper and come

 6     up with there with them.

 7             "Momo Garic:  Where up there?

 8             "Neso Garic:  Well, up there to Pale a bit.  Damn-it.  I don't

 9     know anything.  I should go and see about what to do and how to do it.

10             "Momo Garic:  What don't you know?

11             "Neso Garic:  Well, I have to see where my parents are, how

12     they're doing, what to do.

13             "Momo Garic:  Oh, your parents they've put themselves up in a

14     summerhouse up there near Rajko.

15             "Neso Garic:  Yeah?

16             "Momo Garic:  First they were at Milanko's place and then they

17     found a weekend house, some house up there, opened it up and settled in.

18             "Neso Garic:  Really?

19             "Momo Garic:  And Nevena, too, with the kids and --

20             "Neso Garic:  Right, right.

21             "Momo Garic:  -- aunt and uncle.

22             "Neso Garic:  Well, good for them.  Where are your folks?

23             "Momo Garic:  Well Dragan is up there at Stjenice.

24             "Neso Garic:  I know.  Where's uncle?

25             "Momo Garic:  And mom and dad are somewhere at, in Pale.

Page 29725

 1             "Neso Garic:  You don't know where they are?

 2             "Momo Garic:  I don't know exactly.

 3             "Neso Garic:  How come, man?

 4             "Momo Garic:  Hmm.

 5             "Neso Garic:  Why don't you go to Pale?

 6             "Momo Garic:  Well when, Naso, damn-it.

 7             "Neso Garic:  Well, how are things there?

 8             "Momo Garic:  I don't know.

 9             "Neso Garic:  That part, are you lot holding anything?

10             "Momo Garic:  Well this bit it's holding up.

11             "Neso Garic:  Well, would it be possible to keep hold of that, of

12     the left part at least.

13             "Momo Garic:  Yes, sure, yes, of course.

14             "Neso Garic:  It will?

15             "Momo Garic:  Yup, of course.

16             "Neso Garic:  Well, hold on to it, damn it.  Only what needs

17     doing is that we at least hash up what we don't need on the left side.

18             "Momo Garic:  Yep, right, that's the thing.

19             "Neso Garic:  Will Mladic do anything to ... he will be coming

20     today, I think.  I might be coming with him really.

21             "Will he be doing anything to shell those shits around the

22     barracks.

23             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

24             "Neso Garic:  Well, he has to, damn-it.

25             "Momo Garic:  He will, he will, he will.

Page 29726

 1             "Neso Garic:  God almighty.

 2             "Momo Garic:  He will.

 3             "Neso Garic:  Do you have enough combatants?

 4             "Momo Garic:  Well, yes, there are a lot of them.

 5             "Neso Garic:  So the whole lot up there, they scrammed?

 6             "Momo Garic:  Oh, fuck them.

 7             "Neso Garic:  Herzegovinians, right?

 8             "Momo Garic:  Come on man, that's it.

 9             "Neso Garic:  Seriously?"

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness says that there's no

11     interpretation, that he's not receiving anything.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Probably the tape played till the end and

13     interpreters were interpreting the -- that into English, that's why you

14     heard nothing in the meantime.

15             Did you till the end of the tape?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

17             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat.

19             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

20             JUDGE KWON:  We're not hearing any interpretation.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  The microphone was

22     off.  Mr. Karadzic said:

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This did not go through because

24     somebody paused it because they thought we were waiting for the

25     interpretation.  It would be now necessary to continue listening to this

Page 29727

 1     discussion.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Perhaps I can clarify.  That was actually just

 3     the first three minutes and 15 seconds of the intercept and that was the

 4     first section that I wanted the witness to listen to.  So that's why the

 5     tape was stopped.

 6             Now I'd like to move to ...

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also hear this part about

 8     the Mujahedin that took Pofalici.  Maybe it wouldn't be bad for the

 9     Trial Chamber to know what this is all about.  Who is it who occupied

10     Pofalici after all?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, ask it when you have your turn in the

12     re-examination.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I think his point is

14     that we in listening to the English have not heard the entire transcript.

15     We've only -- it was stopped by the Serbian version, but the English

16     version didn't continue till the end of this portion, so it's probably

17     better actually if they continue the English interpretation before she

18     puts her next question.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I leave it to you, Ms. Gustafson.  But are you sure

20     with the 65 ter number of this?

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, I am.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give it again.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It's 65 ter 32784, I believe.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you told us it's at 783.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  My apologies.  The -- exactly what I wanted to

Page 29728

 1     play to the witness was played, at least in English, and I believe it was

 2     all interpreted.  That was up to 3 minutes and 15 seconds.  I'd now like

 3     to move to 5 minutes and 10 seconds and play up to 6 minutes.

 4                           [Intercept played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 6             "Momo Garic:  Well, in Pofalici.

 7             "Neso Garic:  Did they at least defend themselves?  They did.

 8             "Momo Garic:  Well, they'd gathered up at Neno's.  A shell fell

 9     and killed seven or eight of them straight away.

10             "Neso Garic:  Who else was killed up there?

11             "Momo Garic:  Well, I know that Zoran Ignjatovic was.

12             "Neso Garic:  Where were they targeting them from with the

13     shells.

14             "Momo Garic:  Huh?  From Buca Potok but our guys claim say our

15     lot fired from Zuc people are going crazy man.

16             "There you go.

17             "Neso Garic:  Bloody hell.

18             "Momo Garic:  Yeah, they slaughtered close family friendly it

19     seems.

20             "Neso Garic:  Which one?

21             "Kum Radislava.

22             "Oh my God.

23             "Momo Garic:  These guys were all running and he wanted to fire

24     them from his pistol.  And he said where are you running to ...

25             "Neso Garic:  Seriously?

Page 29729

 1             "Momo Garic:  Yeah.

 2             "Neso Garic:  Who told you that, Milorad?

 3             "Momo Garic:  The guys who stayed there told me.

 4             "Neso Garic:  Well ..."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I'm not hearing anything.  I

 6     don't receive any interpretation.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   That's right, Mr. Garic, that was the second portion that I

 9     wanted you to hear.  Now I'd like to go to 6 minutes and 45 seconds and

10     play until 8 minutes and 25 seconds.

11                           [Intercept played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

13             "Neso Garic:  They haven't called you, have they?

14             "Momo Garic:  Oh, they have.

15             "Neso Garic:  Well, are you the commander up there now.

16             "Momo Garic:  Yes.

17             "I am so sick of it all there.  If there was any way for me to

18     get ...

19             "Neso Garic:  Well, where the bloody hell to?

20             "Momo Garic:  Oh ...

21             "Neso Garic:  Cut the crap.  Well is it you lot who are

22     controlling Mojmilo?

23             "Momo Garic:  The top up to the top.  There's no going down

24     there.

25             "Neso Garic:  So why don't you lot go down there.

Page 29730

 1             "Momo Garic:  Where man?

 2             "We tried ... go where?

 3             "Neso Garic:  Bloody hell!  Well, how?

 4             "Momo Garic:  Well that has to be done by the air force and

 5     strong artillery.

 6             "Neso Garic:  How come when you're above them?

 7             "Momo Garic:  I know that but deeper down there along the range.

 8             "Neso Garic:  Well how come, man?

 9             "Momo Garic:  Well they are stronger ...

10             "Neso Garic:  Zoljas ...

11             "Momo Garic:  There's everything.

12             "Neso Garic:  Weapons for direct targeting.

13             "Momo Garic:  We have everything.

14             "Oh, Neso.

15             "Neso Garic:  What?

16             "Momo Garic:  That was done over two years ago.

17             "Underground all of it.

18             "Neso Garic:  I know.  Only the air force could do it.

19             "Momo Garic:  Right.  That's it.  That's the thing.  What's the

20     situation in Doboj?

21             "Neso Garic:  Well we are holding, you know, it's been liberated

22     but it was poorly done man I'm suggesting certain things ... again ...

23             "Momo Garic:  Yeah?

24             "Neso Garic: ... to expel those shits.

25             "Momo Garic:  Yeah.

Page 29731

 1             "Neso Garic:  They don't want to agree to any of it, they're

 2     hugging the Muslims and Croats.  I'm going to run off because of that,

 3     man.

 4             "Do you understand?

 5             "Momo Garic:  Well that's the thing.

 6             "Neso Garic:  These politicians want to remain all nice and

 7     polite and have us, the soldiers, be the war criminals.

 8             "Momo Garic:  Hang on.  There'll be no more civilian - do you

 9     know that Crisis Staffs are being abolished?

10             "Neso Garic:  It's now War Presidencies.

11             "Same shit.

12             "Momo Garic:  Yeah, okay.

13             "Neso Garic:  But you can't fathom it, man!  I'm going to table a

14     proposal at the Assembly today that the president of the

15     War Presidency ..."

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go now to 9 minutes and 38

17     seconds and play until 10 minutes and 29 seconds.

18                           [Intercept played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

20             "Neso Garic:  What about Ilidza?  Is it holding.

21             "What about Hrasnica.

22             "Momo Garic:  I don't know, it's been pretty flattened.

23             "Oh, fuck it, Neso.

24             "They're now saying that our people have gone in down there

25     tanks, to clear out our apartments.  What do I know?

Page 29732

 1             "Neso Garic:  Right.

 2             "Momo Garic:  I still don't know the precise situation is; what

 3     happened just now is a new thing.

 4             "Neso Garic:  Well, let me tell you.

 5             "Well we should take that left part and enough damn it.

 6             "Momo Garic:  I don't know.  We can't discuss it over the phone.

 7     I'd like to talk to this when I see you.

 8             "Mladic said many things.

 9             "Neso Garic:  Right, I mean politicians don't have a clue.

10             "I was here I was also at the Assembly.

11             "God damn it, man, they're idiots I take the floor and they're

12     yawning interrupting me three times ..."

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And I'd like to play one last portion of this

14     intercept which is the very end and it starts at 14 minutes and 17

15     seconds and goes until the conclusion of the intercept.

16                           [Intercept played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

18             "Neso Garic:  I didn't want to ...

19             "Momo Garic:  Yeah right, that's better.

20             "Neso Garic:  That's it.

21             "Pass on my regards to Momo.  If I'm able to, we'll see each

22     other, God willing.  I might stay for two-three days.

23             "Do they have any money?

24             "Well, our people.  Do any of them have anything?

25             "Momo Garic:  To be honest, I have no clue.

Page 29733

 1             "Neso Garic:  Are you lot getting anything?

 2             "Momo Garic:  Well, there are from friends and relatives ...

 3             "Neso Garic:  Right, Momo.  Have a nice day.

 4             "Momo Garic:  Give my best to everybody over there."

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, we've heard much of this conversation in which

 7     two individuals who identify each other as Neso Garic and Momo Garic, and

 8     you've explained that you had a -- or you have a relative named

 9     Nenad Garic and you said perhaps his nickname is Neso.  The two discuss

10     what was then the recent attack on Pofalici and the effect the attack has

11     had on their relatives and acquaintances, and this is something that

12     you've discussed at length in your Defence statement and also in your OTP

13     interview in 2004.  And in particular, the Momo Garic in this intercept

14     states that his kum was slaughtered in the attack.  And in your OTP

15     interview, you said that you heard rumours that your kum "Krsteni

16     [phoen]" which was translated into English as godfather was slaughtered

17     in the attack on Pofalici and that's on page 16 of that interview.  And

18     the Momo Garic in this intercept explains that following this attack on

19     Pofalici his parents are somewhere in Pale.  And in your OTP statement in

20     2004 you stated that after the attack on Pofalici your parents stayed

21     briefly in Lukavica with you and then they went to stay in Praca with

22     some relatives, that was at pages 16 and 17 of the interview.  And Praca

23     is a village in Pale municipality.  And in light of all those

24     coincidences, it's quite clear, is it not, that this is you speaking with

25     Neso Garic; right?

Page 29734

 1        A.   Yes, Nenad Garic is, indeed, my relative.  Again, I cannot

 2     recognise my own voice.  I can't recognise it.  However, the facts do

 3     prove the golgotha of everything that happened to the Serbs in Pofalici.

 4     That was the first ethnic cleansing.  I am saying that I cannot recognise

 5     the voice, but I can talk to you about the golgotha of the Serbian people

 6     in Pofalici about the slaughtering and about the terrible, terrible fate

 7     of the Serbian people.  My parents stayed until the 16th.  I stated they

 8     didn't stay until the 16th, but I now claim that they did stay until the

 9     16th and my wife and my two children and myself left before the beginning

10     of the civil war because my son had been wounded in a car accident.  The

11     place that I resided is hilly and that's why we moved to Lukavica, where

12     we stayed with my wife's parents.  I repeat once again that my parents

13     stayed in Pofalici where we had resided, and I'm talking about Donji

14     Pofalici with a mixed composition of the population consisting of Croats,

15     Muslims, and Serbs.  On the 15th, on the eve of the attack --

16        Q.   Mr. Garic, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but there is extensive

17     detail about the attack itself in your evidence.  My question is more

18     about the identity of the speakers.  And I take it you don't dispute that

19     all of these facts about you - your name is Momo Garic, you were -- your

20     friends and relatives were affected by the attack on Pofalici, your kum

21     was slaughtered in the attack, and that your parents ended up moving near

22     Pale after the attack - you don't dispute both of those things are true,

23     both of you and about the Momo Garic speaking in this intercept, do you?

24        A.   Everything was as you have just stated.  I have explained all

25     that in my statement at great length and I can go on talking about that

Page 29735

 1     at great length, but again I cannot recognise my voice and I also cannot

 2     say that that was my relative Nenad.  Whether I spoke to him or not, I

 3     don't remember.  But this is just a segment of that golgotha, of that

 4     misery of all that -- those terrible things that happened in Pofalici.

 5        Q.   So you don't dispute that any of those facts are true; you just

 6     have no recollection of any conversation you had with Nenad Garic after

 7     the attack on Pofalici about that attack; is that right?

 8        A.   I don't remember that we spoke at that time.  I believe that the

 9     telephone lines did not function at that time.  This is not my voice.

10     This is not Nenad's voice either.  And as for the details, the details

11     are all correct.  However, everything is distorted.  I don't know.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to look at some of the things that you and

13     Nenad - or it's my position that it was you and Nenad speaking in this

14     intercept - said.  And I'd like to go to the transcript of the intercept

15     and in the first part I'd like to have you look at is at page 15 of the

16     English and the B/C/S.  Sorry, my mistake, if we could go to page 6 of

17     the English and the B/C/S.  I apologise.  And it's at the bottom of the

18     page in the B/C/S and about the middle of the page in the English.  And

19     this is where Neso says:

20             "That part, are you lot holding anything?"

21             And Momir says:

22             "Well, this, it's holding up."

23             And Neso says:

24             "Well, will it be possible to keep hold of that, of the left

25     part, at least?"

Page 29736

 1             And Momir says:

 2             "Yes, sure, of course."

 3             And if we go to the next page in the B/C/S Neso says:

 4             "It will?"

 5             And Momir responds:

 6             "Yup."

 7             And Neso says:

 8             "Well, hold on to it then damn-it, only what needs doing is that

 9     we at bash up what we don't need on the left side."

10             And if we could go to the next page in the English, Momir says:

11             "Yup, right, that's the thing."

12             Now, this is a reference to the Bosnian Serb forces keeping

13     control of the left bank of the Miljacka and bashing up the parts of the

14     left bank they do not control by shelling those parts; right?

15        A.   I don't know what the word "polupa [phoen]" "bash" means.  If you

16     think that this refers to shelling, it was impossible to shell anything

17     down there because there were Serbs living there, not only there were

18     Serbs, but I also believe that artillery was never used against civilians

19     irrespective of what their ethnicity was or what their religious

20     affiliation was.  As far as I know, fire was opened only on the observed

21     military targets which were confirmed.  In the inner city of Sarajevo

22     where I was, there were dozens, if not hundreds, of such targets.  But

23     shelling an urban part of the city where the civilian population resided,

24     I claim again and again that that was never done, not even celebratory

25     fire was opened.  But when a military target was observed, when it was

Page 29737

 1     confirmed and double confirmed, then yes indeed fire was opened at such

 2     targets.

 3        Q.   Just to clarify your last answer, is it your position that -- you

 4     said:

 5             "By shelling an urban part of the city where the civilian

 6     population resided, I claim again and again that that was never done."

 7             Is it your position that urban parts of the city where the

 8     civilian population resided were never shelled?

 9        A.   I am saying that if it was confirmed with certainty that there

10     was only civilian population there, then such areas were never targeted.

11     But there were hundreds of military targets, mobile targets, command

12     posts, groups from which fire was opened, but fire was never opened on

13     urban neighbourhoods where the civilian population resided or at least

14     that didn't happen while I was there up to mid-1992, absolutely not.

15        Q.   And the reason why fire was never opened on urban neighbourhoods

16     where the civilian population resided, is that because of the risk that

17     such shelling would cause to the safety and lives of the civilians in

18     those neighbourhoods?

19        A.   Well, yes, that would be that more or less.  Because that would

20     mean innocent casualties, the loss of life of innocent, honest victims

21     and it never occurred to anybody to do that, either military or civilian.

22     But there were individuals.  But at the time when I was there, there were

23     few of such individuals who had infantry weapons.  They were somewhat

24     excitable, but they could not get hold of any heavy weaponry.  The army

25     as an organisation, as a command, at that time up to mid-1992 never did

Page 29738

 1     that.  They only fired on observed targets which were military targets,

 2     and this is understood when I say "observed targets" which were confirmed

 3     and there were hundreds of them.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Could we go to page 20 of the English and page 21 of the

 5     B/C/S.  And this is at the -- in the bottom third of the English page and

 6     the top of the B/C/S page.  And here Neso asks, and this is starting at

 7     the second line of the page:

 8             "Uh-huh, Ilidza's holding up well, right?"

 9             And Momir responds:

10             "Well, it is, it is."

11             And Neso asks:

12             "And is Hrasnica ours?"

13             And Momir responds:

14             "Well, I don't know.  It's been pretty flattened so ..."

15             And Neso asks:

16             "And down there, or Sokolovic Kolonija."

17             And Momir responds:

18             "Oh fuck it, Neso, I don't know.  It's been pretty damaged as

19     well.  They're now saying that our people have gone in down there tanks,

20     to clear out our apartments.  What do I know? "

21             And Neso responds:

22             "Right, right."

23             And Momir says:

24             "I still don't know what the precise situation is, what happened

25     just now is a new thing."

Page 29739

 1             And Neso says:

 2             "Well, who ...  let me tell you ..."

 3             And then there's something that's not understood, and then Neso

 4     says:

 5             "...  well, we should take that left part and enough, damn it."

 6             And Momo says:

 7             "Well, I don't know ...  we can't over the phone I'd like to --

 8     this when I see you."

 9             And Neso says:

10             "All right."

11             And Momo says:

12             "Mladic said many things, I don't know if he'll realise any of

13     it ..."

14             Now, these areas that are discussed here, Ilidza, Hrasnica, and

15     Sokolovic Kolonija, those are all on the left bank of the Miljacka;

16     right?

17        A.   Sokolovic Kolonija, Ilidza, are both far away from Vraca, at

18     least a dozen kilometres.  So I didn't know what was going on there.  I

19     never went there to see what was happening.  That was far.  No Sarajevo

20     municipality, Novi Grad municipality, and only then in Ilidza -- it must

21     be over ten -- up to 15 kilometres from Grbavica to Ilidza and to the

22     settlements you mentioned, Hrasnica which is below Igman and

23     Sokolovic Kolonija which is an integral part of Hrasnica.  The last two

24     are close to each other.  So I did not have an insight into what was

25     going on there.  And again I repeat about the voices that we hear in this

Page 29740

 1     conversation --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter missed the last part of the

 3     witness's answer.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to Ilidza only a few times

 5     in a round about ways because I had a lot of relatives there.  I wanted

 6     to see whether they were alive.  I had to go via Vogosca because the road

 7     was not passable, the normal, the usual road, was not passable --

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 9        Q.   Sir, the question was simply whether Sokolovic Kolonija, Ilidza,

10     and Hrasnica are on the left bank of the Miljacka and your answer and

11     your geographic description, it appears that you can confirm that that's

12     true.  Now, when Momo Garic says that these neighbourhoods, Hrasnica --

13     not Ilidza, but Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija are pretty flattened or

14     pretty damaged, that's a reference to shelling damage in those

15     neighbourhoods; right?

16        A.   I repeat, how should I have known about the territory so far from

17     Novo Sarajevo?  And if that was the case, it was not done from the region

18     where I was.  That was some 10 to 15 kilometres away from there.  But I

19     cannot believe that Sokolovic Kolonija was shelled so heavily or Hrasnica

20     for that matter.  When I joined the ministry in mid-1992 according to the

21     stories of the witnesses who came down, I wouldn't say that there was so

22     much shelling except that there was shelling on the observed military

23     targets.  I can't believe that it was as flattened as it is implied in

24     here.

25        Q.   Okay.  And Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija, those are both

Page 29741

 1     predominantly Muslim neighbourhoods or they were at the time in the

 2     municipality of Ilidza; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes, Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija are part of the municipality

 4     of Ilidza.  That was the case before the war.  That's how the territory

 5     had been divided.  I think the inhabitants were mainly Muslims, but there

 6     were some Croats.  But there were quite a few Serbs too.  I don't know

 7     whether half of the inhabitants were Serbs.  In Sokolovic Kolonija I had

 8     quite a few relatives, my sister, children.  In certain parts of

 9     Sokolovic Kolonija built after the Olympics, there were quite a lot of

10     Serbs.  I don't know how many exactly.  That was also the case in

11     Hrasnica, not that many Serbs there and not many Croats, mainly Muslims,

12     but there were some Serbs.  But in Sokolovic Kolonija there were quite a

13     few Serbs because Famos was in Sokolovic Kolonija and I know that many

14     people in Famos solved accommodation issues and that there were quite a

15     few Serbs there.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this intercept, please.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.  This will be admitted.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5963, Your Honours.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And I have no further questions for the witness.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Garic.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a few questions,

25     Your Excellencies.  I would like to ask the witness, since we don't have

Page 29742

 1     much time and I can't put leading questions, I'd like to ask the witness

 2     to answer briefly, yes and no, if possible.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Are you familiar with the Law on All People's

 5     Defence and Social Self Protection?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What was the structure of the Territorial Defence?  Which units

 8     and which companies had Territorial Defence units?

 9        A.   They had area and manoeuvre units.  They had units in local

10     communes and in enterprises.  Enterprises had TO units.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Who was the president of the council for people's

12     defence in the municipality?

13        A.   In the municipality, in the Novo Sarajevo municipality?  Is that

14     your question?

15        Q.   In all municipalities, who was the president of the council for

16     National Defence, was it the president of the municipality?

17        A.   Yes, it was the president of the municipality.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was he in command or was he not a commander?

19        A.   Well, he didn't have the duties of commander.  When the

20     Crisis Staffs were established, their role was to overcome the situation,

21     the tragedy, to deal with that.  They would assemble and issue

22     guide-lines when the executive committee in the Municipal Assembly

23     couldn't convene the executive committee and the municipality.  That is

24     the Crisis Staff.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We have to make pauses but I'm hurrying.  Did the

Page 29743

 1     chief of the section for National Defence in the municipality play the

 2     role of the commander?  Did he have such duties?

 3        A.   At the time it was called the secretary for National Defence in

 4     the municipality and he didn't have the function of a commander.  Such

 5     person only had an advisory role and would issue instructions and

 6     guide-lines which had to do with mobilisation and improving the

 7     situation.  But he didn't have the post of commander.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  As for the head of the Territorial Defence in the

 9     municipality, was he a commander?  Did he have such a role to play?

10        A.   The head of the Territorial Defence up until the beginning of the

11     war was a commander.  He led and commanded TO units.  When the war broke

12     out, as I've been saying all day long, no TO commanders were appointed.

13     There were prominent, respected individuals, who had reserve ranks and

14     they fought for their people.  But up until the war, the commander of the

15     Territorial Defence staff was in charge.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at P1124.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   While waiting for it to appear on the screen, Mr. Garic, did the

19     TO at its various levels have weapons warehouses?

20        A.   Area units, units in local communes, had warehouses, enterprises;

21     in Novo Sarajevo municipality, for example, prominent enterprises,

22     Bristol hotel, the transport, school, Energoinvest, Sipad, and so on and

23     so forth.  There are many such enterprises or companies.  Up until the

24     beginning of the war these were prominent companies and made significant

25     profit and they were in a position to buy weapons for their units.  They

Page 29744

 1     had ammunition or weapons warehouses on their premises.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can we just verify whether this conversation was on

 3     the 23rd of April, 1992, between Momcilo Mandic and Tomislav Kovac?  Just

 4     have a look at the date on the top?

 5        A.   The 23rd of April, Momcilo Mandic, also known as Momo, and

 6     Tomislav Kovac, also known as Tomo.

 7        Q.   Is that the date, the 23rd?

 8        A.   The 23rd of April, 1992.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at page 3 in

11     the English version and page 4 in the Serbian version.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Do you know what sort of duties these two performed?

14        A.   As far as I know, Tomislav Kovac before the war was a police

15     commander in Novi Grad municipality.  I think that for a certain period

16     of time he was the minister of the interior when the Republika Srpska was

17     formed.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down.  In the English

19     version it's fine, but can we scroll down or scroll up in the Serbian

20     version.  Yes, that's right.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   It says Vojkovici and Lukavica should be told to fire on

23     Sokolovic Kolonija if they attack us.  They mention Vraca and the fact

24     that an attack is expected.  And it also says that they will fire only if

25     attacked; is that correct?

Page 29745

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Do you see that Kovac says we are constantly defending ourselves

 3     on Ilidza?

 4        A.   Well, not only on Ilidza, but Ilidza and the area I was in,

 5     Tilava, Lukavica, Vraca, Kovacevici, Gornji Trebevic, it wasn't just

 6     Ilidza.  And then on the other side on all the fronts of the Sarajevo

 7     battle-field defence had been organised.  If there had been an attack, it

 8     would have been known.  The lines would have been moved.  But we had the

 9     status quo so this was a standard type of defence and sometimes the

10     tactical position was improved, but this wasn't that important, so it was

11     a matter of defence exclusively.

12        Q.   Could I please ask you to have a look at the penultimate passage

13     in Serbian.  Mandic says:

14             "I don't know these Territorial Defence members from

15     Novo Sarajevo, well, fuck them.  I don't know who is in command of them

16     or what they're going to do ...," and so on and so forth.

17             So the minister, or rather, the deputy minister of the interior

18     says that he doesn't know who is in command of the Novo Sarajevo

19     Territorial Defence members?

20        A.   Well, this is what I've been claiming in the course of my

21     testimony here.  There was no system of subordination.  There were no

22     appointments.  Yet again I'm saying that these were prominent and

23     respected Serbs.  Among them there were quite a few reserve officers and

24     junior officers and there were also locals who were holding the line of

25     defence in order to protect themselves and their homes because they had

Page 29746

 1     lived there for centuries.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What's the majority population in the municipality of

 3     Novo Sarajevo?

 4        A.   In Novo Sarajevo the population is mainly Serbian.  If you take

 5     into consideration Gornji and Donji Pofalici, the left bank of the

 6     Miljacka river, the inhabitants are mainly Serbian but also concerns

 7     Velasici [phoen], Tilava, Miljevici, Vraca, Kovacici, many Serbian

 8     inhabitants.  At the elections in the 1990s the Serbian side was

 9     victorious, the majority were Serbs, over 50 per cent of them.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm not sure how that last question arose from

13     the cross-examination.  In any event, I will need to ask one question in

14     re-cross-examination in light of the witness's answer.

15             JUDGE KWON:  You mean now at the end of the re-examination?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll now see what the

17     relevance is.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Garic, what was the majority population in Grbavica?

20        A.   Serbian, of Serbian ethnicity.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Was Grbavica ever under the control of the ABiH?  If

22     we don't take into account infiltrations of the Green Berets, did you

23     take back Grbavica from someone - I'm referring to the Serbs - or did you

24     just place it under your control?

25        A.   No, the Muslim paramilitary formations never took Grbavica.  They

Page 29747

 1     only infiltrated the area, they would beat the people, loot the people's

 2     property.  But as for them ever holding that territory, no, they never

 3     held that stretch of territory.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Garic, did the executive committee ask the head

 5     of the Territorial Defence of the military sector early on whether they

 6     would implement a decision or did they have to implement a decision on

 7     the basis of their duties?

 8        A.   As far as I know there was always an agreement that would be

 9     reached.  Certain issues would be discussed.  There weren't any real

10     disputes or misunderstandings, so there were no real problems.

11        Q.   Thank you.  As far as that is concerned, do you see a difference

12     between the Crisis Staff and the executive committee, or rather, the

13     municipal authorities and who, in fact, was a member of the Crisis Staff?

14        A.   Well, the Crisis Staff was composed of people who took care about

15     defence, about the police, about all such matters when there was a

16     conflict.  They took care to feed the population, to provide

17     accommodation for refugees.  They were responsible for dealing with the

18     media, for dealing with the population of other ethnicities.  So this was

19     what they had to organise when the system was breaking up.  For example,

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina used to be a rule-governed state.  When the war

21     started it was necessary for a certain period of time to pass, but things

22     were dealt with successfully and in an organised manner and they managed

23     to prevent tragedy from occurring, although there were certain

24     individuals who came to harm, but that wasn't really frequently the case

25     in the area where I was present.

Page 29748

 1        Q.   I see that --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 3             Yes.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, these questions about the executive

 5     committee and the Crisis Staff.  They don't arise from the

 6     cross-examination.  This is not proper re-direct.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I tend to agree.

 8             Mr. Karadzic, I see the time, do you have more to -- for your

 9     re-examination?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly.  Perhaps just another

11     question, but this all arises from the questions about the Crisis Staff

12     because the Crisis Staff is nothing other than a municipal authority.

13     You're not asked whether you want to be part of it or not.  If you're

14     part of the municipal authorities, you have to be a member of the

15     Crisis Staff.  So my question was whether he was present at the sessions

16     that were held.  Well, the authorities were municipal authorities.  They

17     wouldn't ask him whether he wanted to be present.  If a task was assigned

18     to him, he was obliged to carry out that task --

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  This is totally inappropriate giving evidence by

20     the accused.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  It's leading.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Not only leading, but coaching the witness.

24             Do you have further questions?  Otherwise, that being the case,

25     we need to adjourn now.

Page 29749

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Who fed and provided logistical support for the units in

 4     Republika Srpska in the course of the war?

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Again, this does not arise from the

 6     cross-examination.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It does, Your Excellencies.  It

 8     does.  If municipal authorities refer to meetings -- if they're called to

 9     meetings, in fact, it's not in order to act as an authority in command

10     but to provide food.  The municipality had to feed the army.  The

11     authorities were municipal authorities.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not -- I have to go back, but even if it arises

14     from the cross-examination, you are leading the witness.  That's totally

15     inappropriate.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the question was

17     asked about why the municipal authorities responded to military summonses

18     and went to meetings.  I asked about the role it played when it came to

19     logistics for the army because it was suggested that the municipality had

20     a command role to play.  If this hadn't been challenged, I wouldn't have

21     put a leading question because the fact that this arises was challenged.

22     Of course it arises from what was discussed.

23             JUDGE KWON:  That cannot be a reason for you to put a leading

24     question, absolutely.

25             Given the time we'll adjourn for today.

Page 29750

 1             We'll continue tomorrow at 9.00.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.47 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of

 4                           November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.