Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29751

 1                           Tuesday, 6 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Mr. Karadzic, you have more questions for the remainder of your

 8     re-examination?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a couple short questions to

10     which the witness will be able to answer by yes or no.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Now, I take it you have heard some advice from

12     Mr. Robinson, but it was totally inappropriate that you put several

13     statements to the witness yesterday.  Please continue then.

14                           WITNESS:  MOMIR GARIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Garic, when it comes to the

18     Territorial Defence of Novo Sarajevo, was anything against the Law on

19     All People's Defence?

20        A.   No, absolutely not.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And those who were organised into Territorial Defence

22     units during that time before the arrival of the army, did any of them

23     commit a crime that was covered up?

24        A.   There were cases of crimes, but none were covered up.  There were

25     subsequent court proceedings.  For example, the chief of Novo Sarajevo

Page 29752

 1     municipality was involved in a problem but there were proceedings after

 2     that.  Nothing was covered up, although there may have been crimes

 3     committed.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Garic, for having to testify here in The Hague.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, you stated that you had one question

 6     yesterday.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes.  Just one question that arises from the

 8     questions of the accused relating to the ethnic make-up of Novo Sarajevo.

 9     If we could have 65 ter 00242F, please, which is an extract from the 1991

10     census.

11                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

12        Q.   Mr. Garic, yesterday in re-direct you were asked what is the

13     majority population --

14        A.   I apologise, can you speak up?  I can't hear the interpreter very

15     well.

16        Q.   Is that better, Mr. Garic?

17        A.   Yes, now it's okay.

18        Q.   Yesterday you were asked what's the majority population in the

19     municipality of Novo Sarajevo, and you answered:

20             "In Novo Sarajevo, the population is mainly Serbian."

21             And you also stated that the majority were Serbs, over

22     50 per cent of them.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 10 of the English and

24     page 15 of the B/C/S in this document.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Garic, this is from the 1991 census, and if we could

Page 29753

 1     zoom in on the middle of the page in B/C/S where it gives the breakdown

 2     for Novo Sarajevo.  Do you see the information there for Novo Sarajevo,

 3     Mr. Garic, it's in the middle of the page?  And it has information from

 4     19 --

 5        A.   The letters are very small.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we make those figures for Novo Sarajevo

 7     bigger.

 8        Q.   Mr. Garic -- there we go.  That's better.  There we go.  Can you

 9     see them now, Mr. Garic?

10        A.   Yes, I can.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Is it possible to also scroll down so that the

12     table headings can be seen.  I apologise.  There we go.

13        Q.   Now, we can see the ethnic breakdown for Novo Sarajevo in 1991.

14     The first column is "total," then it's "Croat, Muslim, Serb, Yugoslav,

15     and other."  And we have numbers and percentages.  And if we could go

16     back to the previous view.  That's great.  Thank you.

17             So we have 9.3 per cent Croat, 35.7 per cent Muslim,

18     34.6 per cent Serb, and then we have Yugoslavs and others.  So contrary

19     to what you stated yesterday, Novo Sarajevo was not over 50 per cent

20     Serb; it was just under 35 per cent Serb, and, in fact, there were just

21     about the same number of Muslims as Serbs as well as a significant number

22     of Croats; right?

23        A.   Well, judging from the table that we're looking at now, yes, yes.

24     However, it is my opinion that all those who declare themselves as

25     Yugoslavs, they are, as a matter of fact, Serbs.  That's the way I see

Page 29754

 1     it.

 2        Q.   Well, plenty of people in Sarajevo consider themselves to be

 3     Yugoslavs of all -- people of all ethnicities; right?

 4        A.   That's right.  However, most of them were Serbs.  This is my

 5     very, very deep belief.  I believe that mostly the Serbs declare

 6     themselves as Yugoslavs.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we establish the source of this

10     document?  This is Croatia in 1995; right?  Can we go back to the first

11     page where we can see that.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think that can be clarified by Ms. Gustafson.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  This is an extract from the 1991 census.

14     Extracts from this document have been tendered throughout the trial.  I

15     don't think that there's been any concerns as to the --

16             JUDGE KWON:  But the e-court explains that it is -- it was

17     published in Zagreb in 1995.  Can you see the -- could you confirm that?

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It does, Your Honour.  I'll have to look into

19     that.  I can't comment on that at the moment.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It's the Republic of Croatia, state bureau of

21     statistics, Zagreb, April 1995.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I see that, Your Honour.  I'll look into it and

23     get back to the Court.  If it could be marked for identification for the

24     moment.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, do you object to the admission of this

Page 29755

 1     document?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Other than verifying the provenance of it, no.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  It's written here it's Zagreb.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it probably ought to be compared with the

 5     official census to make sure that we're working with the correct numbers,

 6     but short of that we don't have any objection.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will receive it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5964, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Unless my colleagues have questions for you,

11     Mr. Garic, that concludes your evidence.  Thank you for your coming to

12     The Hague.  Now you're free to go.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29756











11  Page 29756 redacted.  Private session.















Page 29757

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21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, in relation to the issue raised during

25     the private session, the Chamber will admit the cover page and the

Page 29758

 1     relevant page, only those two pages.

 2             That -- I think that's fine with the Prosecution as well,

 3     Ms. Gustafson?

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour, that's fine.  And while I'm on

 5     my feet I should also mention I communicated with Mr. Robinson.  We would

 6     like to tender the extracts from the witness's 2004 OTP interview that

 7     were used in cross-examination --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And could you identify the page numbers that were

 9     dealt with.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, it's pages -- well, page 1 for the

11     identifying information; pages 16 to 17 that were referenced at

12     transcript page 29733 through 29734; page 26, referenced at transcript

13     page 29650 through 29653; and page 54, referenced at transcript

14     page 29692 and 29693; and those extracts have been uploaded under

15     65 ter 24038.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Did you not say to the effect that he dealt with his

17     nickname in pages 47 to 52 about his nickname Momo?

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you check it and --

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'll check --

21             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, the Chamber is minded to

22     include those pages as well.

23             I take it there's no objection?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give a number for that.

Page 29759

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5965, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Is the next witness prepared, ready to come?  Yes,

 3     let's bring him in.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, could I request the next witness be

 5     given a warning pursuant to Rule 90(E).

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could you take the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO GENGO

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please take a seat and make yourself comfortable.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.  Good

18     morning to everybody.

19                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before you proceed, Mr. Karadzic -- Mr. Gengo.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Before you start giving evidence, I would like to

24     draw your attention to a particular Rule at the Tribunal.  Under this

25     Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the

Page 29760

 1     Prosecution or the accused or even from the Chamber if you believe that

 2     your answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate," I mean that

 3     something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal

 4     offence or could provide evidence that you have committed an offence.

 5     However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you and you do

 6     not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the discretion to

 7     oblige you to answer the question.  But in such a case, the Tribunal will

 8     make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used

 9     as evidence in other case against you for any offence other than false

10     testimony.

11             Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My good morning applies to

16     everybody.  Good morning to everybody.  And I would like to call up

17     1D6033.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   While we're waiting, Mr. Gengo, what was your rank when you left

20     the army?

21        A.   I was lieutenant-colonel.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, did you provide a statement

23     to the Defence team?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Is this the statement, the one that is in front of you on the

Page 29761

 1     screen?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Was it read out to you and does it reflect your words correctly?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If I were to put the same questions today to you in the

 6     courtroom, would your answers be the same?

 7        A.   Yes, they would.

 8        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, let us make breaks between questions and

 9     answers because we speak the same language and if we do not break between

10     questions and answers the interpreters will not be able to interpret

11     properly.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

13     tender this statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  I would like to tender

14     the entire package with the statement.

15             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it you are also tendering three

16     associated exhibits as well?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies, the package is

18     an offer to be tendered into evidence.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             Mr. Gaynor.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  No objection, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  They will be all admitted.

23             Shall we give the number.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The statement

25     65 ter number 1D06033 will be Exhibit D2383, 65 ter number 1D10007 will

Page 29762

 1     be Exhibit D2384, 65 ter number 1D10008 will be Exhibit D2385, and

 2     65 ter number 1D10009 will be Exhibit D2386.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  On this occasion before I forget again,

 4     Mr. Robinson, I emphasise again to write down the exact 65 ter number in

 5     the future in order not -- for the witness -- the Chamber staff not to

 6     waste time.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Very well, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to read

11     out a short summary of Lieutenant-Colonel Gengo's statement in English.

12             [In English] From 1979 to 1991 Slavko Gengo worked as a highly

13     skilled mechanic for the infantry weapons at the Lukavica barracks in

14     Sarajevo garrison.  In 1991 he was transferred to the

15     216th Mountain Brigade in Han Pijesak and appointed commander of the

16     technical maintenance, weapons, and ammunition workshop.  In

17     September 1992 he was transferred to the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade

18     and appointed officer for technical supplies.  From January 1994 to

19     February 1995 he was commander of the 7th Infantry Battalion of the

20     1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.  From February 1995 until the end of the

21     war he performed logistical duties in the command of the

22     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

23             On February the 5th, 1994, day of Markale I incident, he was in

24     the command of the battalion in Hresa, 7 kilometres from Mrkovici.  He

25     did not hear any launching activities -- launcher activities nor did

Page 29763

 1     anyone report on that fact from his battalion.  He was informed that an

 2     inspection team would come to the VRS Main Staff, the

 3     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and the brigade command, escorted by UNPROFOR.

 4     The artillery pieces were not moved from their established firing

 5     positions before, during, or after the incident at Markale Market.

 6     Milorad Dzida informed Slavko Gengo about the content of the inspection

 7     and presented his conclusion that everything was fine, based on

 8     everything that had been seen.  Several days later, during a UNPROFOR

 9     regular visit, the French major in charge of the sector told Slavko Gengo

10     through an interpreter that the on-site finding indicated that the

11     7th Battalion had nothing to do with the incident at Markale.

12             He first heard about the Green Berets -- Mr. Gengo first heard

13     about the Green Berets in 1991 from the JNA commander of Muslim

14     ethnicity.

15             The objectives of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps units were

16     defensive actions.  Fire was opened exclusively against the enemy's

17     combat positions and mostly as a response to their actions.  Neither he

18     nor his unit had any intention to cause civilian casualties or terrorise

19     civilians who were under the control of the Muslim authorities.  They

20     were informed about the basic provisions of international law of war and

21     humanitarian law through reports, orders, and the media.  When required,

22     the higher levels of command would issue orders of various forms of bans

23     with the aim to respect international law standards.

24             On the contrary, civilians in the zone of responsibility felt

25     endangered.  Since the area where they lived was under constant threat,

Page 29764

 1     their decision and intention to defend themselves was strengthened.  Most

 2     members of the 7th Battalion were men who lived in the battalion's zone

 3     of responsibility, local population.  They had a deficit of professional

 4     commanding officers.

 5             The battalion had four 120-millimetre mortars, two at the firing

 6     positions in Mrkovici and two at Gornje Biosko.  They also had four

 7     92 mortars, two on Debelo Brdo and two at Mrkovici.

 8             The average distance of the Muslim and Serbian lines were around

 9     100 metres.  Almost all positions from the opposing Muslim units were in

10     settlements which were continuously inhabited by civilians.  They

11     frequently informed the UNPROFOR about abuses regarding the deployment of

12     military targets, fire from civilian facilities, and cease-fire

13     violations.  They also had information that enemy heavy artillery, that

14     means tanks, frequently fired from the direction of Kosevo and the tunnel

15     at Ciglane.  This forced them, the Serbs, to return fire against it.

16     Occasionally, groups of snipers armed with sniper rifles and passive

17     scopes would come to the zone of responsibility of the opposing units.

18     They would fire during the night at this position and level -- and leave

19     the area.  They would also fire at the passenger buses, civilian cars,

20     and everything else that travelled along the Vogosca-Hresa-Pale road.

21     Local Muslim population regularly protested against their stays, because

22     they knew that a response from the Serbian side could follow.

23             The VRS provided security for the Mostanica spring water-supply

24     line, made UNPROFOR's access possible, and that of the teams from

25     Sarajevo in order to do check and repair.  Water-supply was never

Page 29765

 1     deliberately switched off.

 2             Everyone who left Sarajevo via the Serbian positions could

 3     continue their journey as they wished.  Conversely, he was aware that a

 4     large number of Serbs that remained in the area of the town under the

 5     control of the Muslim authorities were not allowed to leave the town.

 6             [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this point in time, I don't

 7     have any questions for this witness.  I give the floor to my -- to

 8     Mr. Gaynor.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Gengo.  I'm here to ask you some questions on

13     behalf of the Prosecution.  Now, Mr. Gengo, first of all, it's correct,

14     isn't it, that you met me and two of my colleagues in the presence of a

15     member of the Defence on the 16th of October, 2012?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You're aware that that interview was audio recorded?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you tell the truth in that interview?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, turning to another preliminary matter.  As Mr. Karadzic

22     said, your statement was taken by members of the Defence team.  Could you

23     name the members of the Defence team who took your statement?

24        A.   I don't know which period you have in mind.

25        Q.   I'm referring to the statement that you confirmed a few minutes

Page 29766

 1     ago which has been admitted before the Court.  Could you confirm who took

 2     the initial version of that statement?

 3        A.   Savcic, Milomir took the first statement from the Defence team.

 4        Q.   And anyone else involved in that initial interview?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Right.  Now I'm going to move to a few of the things that we

 7     discussed in our interview.  First of all, the question of

 8     communications.  You said there were 650 men in your battalion; isn't

 9     that right?

10        A.   Over 800.  There were 650 in the infantry companies.  All the

11     others were for logistics support.  There was a technical platoon, a

12     quartermaster platoon, medical security, medical support, rather.

13        Q.   How many were in the communications section?

14        A.   Fifteen men.

15        Q.   Did you have communications with the Kosevo Battalion?

16        A.   I did.

17        Q.   Were they generally good, those communications?

18        A.   Well, it functioned fairly well.

19        Q.   Did you also have communications with the brigade command, the

20     corps command, with the 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment?

21        A.   Yes, I did.  With the 4th, with the brigade command, but not with

22     the corps.  I was in touch with the brigade command.  I was subordinated

23     to them and it wasn't necessary for me to communicate with the corps

24     command.

25        Q.   Your communications with the brigade command and with the

Page 29767

 1     4th Mixed Artillery Regiment were generally satisfactory; is that right?

 2        A.   They were satisfactory.

 3        Q.   The commander of the 4th Mixed Artillery Regiment was who?

 4        A.   Well, there were two regiments in the zone of responsibility, the

 5     4th Mixed Regiment, there was Bartla Jovan and there was the 4th MAP, and

 6     there was a certain Cvetkovic there whose name I don't know.

 7        Q.   Now in your battalion you had a mortar platoon; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   How many were in the mortar platoon?

10        A.   It was a mortar platoon, 36 or 37 men.  It depended.  The number

11     changed.  It wasn't always the same number.  People would leave,

12     disappear, and so on and so forth.

13        Q.   Did you control the firing of rounds by that mortar platoon?

14        A.   They were subordinated to me.  So the mortars could not be used

15     without my authorisation.

16        Q.   And did you need to seek authorisation from anybody to order the

17     firing of mortars?

18        A.   I had to seek authorisation from the superior command, the

19     brigade command.

20        Q.   That was Colonel Lizdek?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did Colonel Lizdek have to seek authority from anyone?

23        A.   I don't know about that.  That didn't fall within my remit.

24        Q.   Well, I suggest that you told me in our interview that only with

25     the authorisation of General Galic first and later was from

Page 29768

 1     General Milosevic could Lizdek approve the firing of a mortar round; is

 2     that right?

 3        A.   General Galic wasn't the commander when I was the battalion

 4     commander.  Dragomir Milosevic was the commander.

 5        Q.   Is it true to say that the corps commander, the commander of the

 6     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, ultimately controlled the firing of mortar

 7     rounds by your battalion?

 8        A.   Well, he was probably privy to this.  The brigade commander

 9     probably informed the corps commander.  That's how the chain of command

10     worked.

11        Q.   Now, did you exercise discipline over your battalion effectively?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did the mortar crews ever fire without your approval?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Now, in paragraph 18 of your statement --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Gaynor.  I wasn't clear about the

17     witness's answer about the 4th Mixed Regiment and 4th MAP.  Could you ask

18     the -- could you tell us again what they are about.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does this concern me?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  When asked about the 4th

21     Mixed Artillery Regiment you answered to the effect that there were two

22     regiments, one is 4th Mixed Regiment, the other was 4th MAP, but it --

23     your answer wasn't clear so that's why I'm asking you again to tell us

24     about it.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the zone of responsibility of

Page 29769

 1     the 7th Battalion, there were -- there was the 4th MAP and the

 2     4th Mixed Artillery Regiment, their units were deployed there.

 3     Bartla Jovan was one of the commander.  He was the command of the 4th

 4     Mixed and the commander of the 4th MAP was Cvetkovic, Radislav, but I'm

 5     not sure if that was his name.  And some of the artillery was behind the

 6     lines of the 7th Battalion.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you heard this but I don't remember at this

 8     moment, but what does "MAP" mean?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mixed artillery regiment.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Gaynor?

11             MR. GAYNOR:  No, I share your confusion, Your Honour.  The --

12     perhaps we can ask the witness to distinguish between the role of the

13     4th Mixed Artillery Regiment and the 4th MAP, which appears to be the

14     same thing.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they're two different units,

17     two different regiments.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I leave it to you, Mr. Gaynor.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Could you distinguish --

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Gaynor.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Before you go further, there is something I should

24     like to have clarified, a question you'd put to the witness.

25             General, it was put to you by Mr. Gaynor:

Page 29770

 1             "I suggest to you that in our interview that only with the

 2     authorisation of General Galic first and later General Milosevic could

 3     Lizdek approve the firing of a mortar."

 4             Now, your answer was:

 5             "General Galic was not the commander when I was the battalion

 6     commander.  Dragomir Milosevic was the commander."

 7             But could you answer the question for me, please?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat that.  What

 9     answer would you like me to provide?

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Gaynor suggested to you that in your interview

11     with him only with the authorisation of General Galic first and later

12     Milosevic could Lizdek approve the firing of a mortar round.  Do you

13     agree with that, that you said that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that I believe that

15     that is the case.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  So that is the case?  Did you hear me?  Is that the

17     case?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, could you interpret that?

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Gaynor, are you seeing the point I'm trying to

20     make?

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes --

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  Can I have that question answered, please.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Certainly, Your Honour.

24        Q.   First of all, Witness, General Galic was the commander of the

25     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps during the period that you worked at the command

Page 29771

 1     of the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade, more or less; isn't that true

 2     during --

 3        A.   Yes --

 4        Q.   Now --

 5        A.   -- correct.

 6        Q.   The successor to General Galic as commander of the

 7     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was General Dragomir Milosevic; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Now, we agreed that you could only authorise the firing of a

10     mortar with the approval of Lizdek; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And Lizdek, in turn, could only authorise the firing of a mortar

13     with the approval of the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   I assume that that is the case.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now, just going back to the earlier point about the

17     4th Mixed Artillery Regiment, you referred to the

18     4th Mixed Artillery Regiment and the 4th MAP.  Again, could you clarify

19     if you can what the difference was in the role of those two units or

20     regiments?

21        A.   Well, they differed in terms of the weapons that they had.

22        Q.   Could you explain just a little more clearly what you mean by

23     that.

24        A.   They differed in terms of the weapons they had.

25        Q.   Mr. Gengo, could you clarify whether one regiment had heavier

Page 29772

 1     weapons perhaps than another regiment.  If they were both artillery

 2     regiments, did they both have the same kinds of artillery?  Did one have

 3     heavier artillery?  One have lighter artillery?  Could you give

 4     Their Honours some kind of indication what the difference was?

 5        A.   Well, the difference was that, for example, one of them had BOVs

 6     and the other didn't.  They had BOVs, and they had other types of weapons

 7     that the other unit didn't have.  I'm not an artillery man, so I'm not in

 8     a position to know exactly what they had, what kind of weapons they had.

 9     So as I said, they had BOVs or APCs.

10        Q.   What is a BOV?

11        A.   It's an armoured personnel carrier.

12        Q.   Very well.  Now, in your statement at paragraph 18 which is to be

13     found on page 5, you say:

14             "Heavy weapons against our lines were mostly used from the firing

15     positions from the sector of Kosevo below Grdonj and from the

16     Jajce barracks."

17             You recall that evidence?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, did you respond to fire coming from those locations?

20        A.   Well, I responded to fire if they attacked.  It depended on

21     whether they were attacking the road.  I had a retaliate with

22     authorisation from my command.  I had to fire on the firing position that

23     was obstructing the passage of vehicles from the town, from the

24     municipalities of Ilijas, Hadzici, Vogosca, and so on and so forth.

25        Q.   Now, I'm returning to something that we discussed in our

Page 29773

 1     interview.  Can you confirm that when you were responding to fire coming

 2     from the Kosevo area or the Jajce barracks area, that you would use

 3     120-millimetre mortars to do so?

 4        A.   120-millimetre mortars were used only when my positions were

 5     attacked, so whether that was on the Mala Tvrdjava-Velika Tvrdjava axis

 6     that's when I used 120-millimetres that were located at Mrkovici.  That

 7     was in front of the defence line Grdonj.  120-millimetre mortars that

 8     were in the Biosko-Debelo Brdo sector were ones that I used when the

 9     Faletici-Zecija Glava sectors were attacked.  Those lines were lines

10     where mortars had been placed and they weren't used on any other axis.

11     The Jajce barracks was at that forward place on the Zmajevac hill or

12     Sedrenik.  It's all in the same area.

13        Q.   We'll confirm the location of the Jajce barracks in a moment.

14     Can you confirm that when you were responding to fire coming from the

15     Kosevo area and the Jajce barracks area, that you used 120-millimetre

16     mortars?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 13 and I think you've

19     confirmed it a moment ago, you said you had two 120-millimetre mortar

20     positions at Mrkovici and two 120-millimetre mortar positions at

21     Gornje Biosko; is that right?

22        A.   That's one position, two mortars.  That was a mistake.

23        Q.   Well, it's in your statement.  You had two 120-millimetre mortar

24     positions at Mrkovici; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29774

 1        Q.   You had two more 120-millimetre mortar positions at

 2     Gornje Biosko?

 3        A.   [No interpretation]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure to which question witness answered

 6     "yes."

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, I won't interrupt.  Just tell the Judges where the

 9     four mortar positions were located.

10        A.   Two mortars at Mrkovici, 120-millimetre mortars; two mortars in

11     sector of Donje Biosko-Debelo Brdo.  That's the area.

12        Q.   Now could we --

13        A.   That's the same area.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we look, please, at D2385.

15        Q.   What's coming up now, Mr. Gengo, is a map which you marked.  And

16     at the end of paragraph 14 of your statement you said that you marked in

17     red circles the positions of the support hardware on this map.  Now, in

18     paragraph 14 you described quite an array of support hardware.  So I'd

19     like you to identify with the assistance of the usher those circles which

20     represent the 120-millimetre mortar positions at Mrkovici and the

21     120-millimetre mortar positions at Gornje Biosko.  Perhaps we could zoom

22     in on the centre part of the screen, please.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I'm afraid whether this is such a quality to be able

24     to zoom in.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  I think if Your Honours can see the four red circles

Page 29775

 1     towards the top of the map, if -- my intention was to get the witness to

 2     identify which of those refer to the 120-millimetre mortar positions.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, with a pen could you simply put a circle around the

 4     two locations you have described, the Mrkovici mortars and the

 5     Gornje Biosko mortars.

 6        A.   Is that Mrkovici?  Could we zoom in so that I can see a little

 7     more clearly.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Sorry, Mr. Usher, would you mind zooming in on the

 9     top part of this map for a moment, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I?  Mrkovici, Mrkovici is here.

11     This is Biosko.

12             MR. GAYNOR:

13        Q.   Could you put an M next to Mrkovici and a B next to Biosko,

14     please.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Now, could you sign and date that, please.  Could you put your

17     signature and -- oh, it is, yes.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I tender that, please, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5966, Your Honours.

21             MR. GAYNOR:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, you know where the Jajce barracks are, don't

23     you?  You were there in 1991?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You'd be able to identify their position on a map or would you

Page 29776

 1     like me to remind you of its location?

 2        A.   I wouldn't be able to.  I can't see it very well.  I know that it

 3     is in the city on the slope of a hill.  It's difficult.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, P2193.  It's P2193, please.

 5     Now, in this map we can see on the far left the Kosevo area, to the

 6     middle on the far left, and then I think that's fairly visible.  If we

 7     look down towards the bottom right towards a box marked with the English

 8     word "legend," could we zoom in on the bottom right corner.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you see near where there's a bend in the river to

10     the left of the box marked "legend," there's a building with the figure

11     "103" marked in red.  The building looks like a very large capital E.  Do

12     you see it, Mr. Witness?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you confirm that is the Jajce barracks?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. Registrar, we'll move now to a another map,

18     please, and that is -- first of all, we'll look at P1021.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, this is a map showing confrontation lines and

20     VRS assets around the city of Sarajevo.  Perhaps we can go in, blow up a

21     little bit towards the city of Sarajevo, please.  That's perfect.  Thank

22     you very much.

23             Now, Mr. Witness, you see the Cyrillic letters "SRK" marking the

24     area of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  Do you see that?

25        A.   I do.

Page 29777

 1        Q.   And to the east of that you see the Cyrillic letters "DK" marking

 2     the area of the Drina Corps.  Do you see that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, your brigade's area of responsibility extended from the

 5     north-eastern edge of the front line all the way towards the territory

 6     held by the Drina Corps; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, if we're talking about the brigade.

 8        Q.   Yes, your brigade.  Now -- so your brigade had a front on the

 9     edge of the city of Sarajevo and behind that it was free territory as far

10     as the Drina Corps, wasn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, I'd like to take you to a blown-up version of that.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  And could I ask the Registrar, please, for

14     65 ter 23919E, please.

15        Q.   Just to confirm my earlier question where I said the expression

16     "free territory," we both understand that to mean territory controlled by

17     the Bosnian Serb army; isn't that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, in this map, if I can ask the Registrar to blow it up a

20     little, we see -- you'll see in a moment the areas of Kosevo and Grdonj.

21     If we can blow up the central part of the map, please.  Are you able to

22     see the words "Kosevo" yet?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now you also see the area where we identified the Jajce barracks

25     just above the bend in the river.  Do you see that?

Page 29778

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And do you see the word "Grdonj" on this map?

 3        A.   Yes, here.

 4        Q.   Just so it's clear for everyone, I'd like to ask the court usher,

 5     please, to help you just to circle, if you will, the word "Kosevo,"

 6     circle the word "Grdonj," and then identify the location of the

 7     Jajce barracks.

 8        A.   Grdonj.

 9        Q.   Yes, please.  Circle the word "Kosevo," please.

10        A.   Kosevo is a wider area as a matter of fact.  The term denotes a

11     wider area.

12        Q.   Circle the area which you understand to mean the Kosevo area.

13        A.   Well, no.  I believe that this area below, that would be ... I

14     don't see the brick works Kobilja Glava, Pionirska Dom, all those things

15     are in the Kosevo sector.  That also includes the Kosevo stadium.  I

16     would say that it is this part here.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Gengo, the word "Kosevo" appears to lie outside the area

18     that you've just identified as the Kosevo area.

19        A.   Well, this is an entire plateau.  This is an entire

20     neighbourhood.  I can't explain.  Everything is in Kosevo, the hospital,

21     the stadium.  Everything is there.  Everything is comprised within that

22     name Kosevo.  It's a wide plateau.

23        Q.   All right.  Well then identify clearly the boundaries of the area

24     that you consider to be the Kosevo area.  You've just put a line there at

25     the moment.  Could you just identify clearly the area that you consider

Page 29779

 1     to be the Kosevo area.

 2        A.   Well, Kobilja Glava is somewhere around here.  This would be it.

 3        Q.   All right.  Put the letter K next to that area.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Now I'd like you to identify with a dot the location of the

 6     Jajce barracks.  If I can remind you, we saw that it was just above a

 7     bend in the river which I think is fairly visible on this map.

 8        A.   Well, this is it.  This is where it is.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, you see where the river is, do you?

10        A.   Here.

11        Q.   Very well.  Now, could you put J next to the dot you've

12     identified as the location of the Jajce barracks.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Okay.  Now could you sign and date that, please.  And you can

15     sign it in the bottom right-hand corner, please, bottom right.  Very

16     well.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, please, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5967, Your Honours.

20             MR. GAYNOR:

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I think we can agree that when you were firing

22     120-millimetre mortar unit -- mortar round, I should say, from the

23     Mrkovici area towards either the Kosevo area or the area of the

24     Jajce barracks, that you were firing at an area where there is likely to

25     be a substantial civilian population in that general area.  Do you accept

Page 29780

 1     that?

 2        A.   I accept that if we fired at the Jajce barracks.  However, I told

 3     you that we were firing at the forward post of the Jajce barracks which

 4     was about a kilometre away from the location in the city.

 5        Q.   Well, in your statement, Mr. Gengo, at paragraph 18, you said:

 6             "Heavy weapons against our lines were mostly used from the firing

 7     positions from the sector of Kosevo below Grdonj and from the

 8     Jajce barracks."

 9             You did not there refer to the forward post of the

10     Jajce barracks.

11        A.   Well, that was also the Jajce barracks, and part of those

12     barracks was the warehouse, Zmajevac, and that's how I responded when I

13     was asked about the Jajce barracks.  I explained that the location was

14     not in the city but outside of the city.  And all those were parts of the

15     one and the same Jajce barracks.

16        Q.   Nevertheless, we can accept or we can agree, I think, that when

17     you were firing 120-millimetre mortar rounds from Mrkovici towards the

18     locations that you've identified, the distance travelled by those

19     projectiles would be of the range of 3 or 4 kilometres; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I correct the transcript,

22     please.  In the previous answer it wasn't recorded that the witness said

23     that he had already explained the issue of Zmajevac during the interview.

24     That was not recorded.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow.  I leave it to you, Mr. Gaynor.

Page 29781

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I wasn't able to understand the witness's

 2     answer.  I'll move on anyway.

 3        Q.   When you were approving the firing of 120-millimetre mortar

 4     rounds into the urban part of Sarajevo or towards the areas that you've

 5     identified in your evidence, what precautions did you take to minimise

 6     the possibility of civilian casualties?

 7        A.   First of all, fire was never opened if it was not a response to

 8     enemy attack.  When we were under attack, I used 120- and 80-millimetre

 9     mortars.  I did not need to use them at any other time.  So when we

10     opened fire it was in response to the enemy fire that had been opened at

11     us.

12        Q.   And I think you've said in your statement that positions of the

13     Muslim unit opposed to you were in settlements which were continuously

14     inhabited by civilians also.  Now, when you were responding to fire --

15        A.   There were, Sedrenik settlement and some others, Vlasan Han

16     [phoen] was also settled, the slopes of Grdonj were also inhabited.

17     There were private houses there as well, family homes.

18        Q.   So as a general matter, what precautions did you take to minimise

19     civilian casualties?

20        A.   What could I do for the enemy side?  The enemy side should have

21     done that.  If they had opened fire from a settlement, they knew that we

22     would respond.  So they should have taken measures in order to avoid

23     civilian casualties.  I could not see whether there were any civilian

24     people around that firing position or not.  All I did was to return fire

25     on the firing position from which fire had been opened on us.

Page 29782

 1        Q.   Is it your position that if the enemy side did not take measures

 2     in order to avoid civilian casualties, that that was their problem and

 3     you would fire anyway?

 4        A.   Of course, but of course.  I could not see what they were doing

 5     at a distance of 3 to 4 kilometres.  How was I in a position to see what

 6     they were doing over there?

 7        Q.   I'd like to move now, please, to paragraph 27 of your statement.

 8     We're moving to sniping, Mr. Gengo.  In paragraph 27 you said that the

 9     opposing forces had sniper rifles and passive scopes and they would fire

10     at night.  How did you know that the enemy's snipers were using passive

11     scopes?

12        A.   I knew because on one occasion I had three casualties.  Three of

13     my men were killed after having been hit in the head and in the area of

14     the eye.  It is well-known that a sniper reacts to heat if they had IC

15     devices and all of my men were hit in those areas, in the head and eye

16     areas.

17        Q.   You also say:

18             "They would fire against our positions and leave the area."

19             How did you know that they left the area after firing against

20     your positions during the night?

21        A.   I knew because my men and men on the opposing side were

22     neighbours and they communicated to each other and they would say to each

23     other:  Move away, we would use snipers.  They were not happy because

24     they knew that sniper fire would be returned by the opposing side and the

25     location population was not happy and they were against those infiltrated

Page 29783

 1     units because before that it was peaceful, there were no fires, and

 2     fire -- fires opened, and they just disturbed the peace, they would just

 3     infiltrate briefly, they would kill, and then they would return.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have a problem with the

 5     interpretation.  It says here from lines 11 onwards, on line 13 it says

 6     that local Muslims would tell them:  Move away, we will open fire.  And

 7     the witness said that they informed the enemy, their neighbours, and they

 8     told them:  Move away, some people have come and they will open fire.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And you should be aware.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Speak slowly when answering the question and I'll

11     leave it to you.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Is it -- in your interview with me you told me that you found out

14     that they would leave the area after firing against your positions after

15     the war, that's when you found that out, isn't it?

16        A.   Of course.  They talked to each other.  After the war I talked to

17     my people and I learned that that's how they had done things.  They

18     talked to each other during the war.  They were neighbours.  They

19     exchanged opinions on various issues because they knew each other.

20        Q.   Now I want to talk about the nature of the Serbian side's

21     response.  You said in your statement:

22             "The Muslim local population regularly protested against their

23     stays because they knew the Serbian side's response would follow."

24             Can you clarify the nature of the Serbian side's response?

25        A.   I can.  For example, if they came closer to positions and if

Page 29784

 1     opened fire on the road, if there was a mortar on one of the vehicles,

 2     they would open fire.  I had to neutralise such firing positions.  I had

 3     to open fire.  And as soon as you fire from a 120- or 82-millimetre

 4     mortar, you know that the target area is about 50 kilometres --

 5     50 metres -- 50 square metres wide.  So there was a danger that there

 6     would be collateral damage and the civilian population protested.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not "kilometre."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Square metres.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:

10        Q.   So is it right you retaliated against sniper fire using mortar

11     fire?

12        A.   It depended on the area where it was, from where it opened fire.

13     It dictated the use of response weapons.  Sometimes it would be a mortar.

14     Sometimes it was a 12.7 machine-gun.  It all depended on the area from

15     which it was fired from.  That dictated your choice of a weapons that

16     would be used to neutralise --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please do not --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again there is a mistake in the

19     interpretation.  The witness said if the position was in the forest -- I

20     apologise I have to ask the witness to slow down because very important.

21     Things are being omitted from the transcript.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We do not know how much we are missing.

23             So could you repeat your answer from the part which said to the

24     effect, "It all depended on the area from which it was fired from."

25     Mr. Gengo, do you follow?

Page 29785

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So could you repeat your answer to the question

 3     whether it is right that you retaliated against sniper fire using mortar

 4     fire.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  If fire was opened from a

 6     forest, from a thick forest in Borije, then I had to use mortars.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think we're noting a

 8     clear pattern by the accused of raising interpretation questions when he

 9     does not like the answer that the witness is giving.  That's my personal

10     observation.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's not go there.  Could you take up the issue

12     from there.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I want to put to you a few words that you said

15     in your interview with me when you were describing the nature of your

16     response with mortar projectiles.  You said that the mortar explodes and

17     shrapnels have wider domain of causing injuries, so it was inevitable

18     that the civilians would get hurt as well.  You recall that?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, before the witness answers.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get a reference for that?

23     It would allow us to follow.

24             JUDGE KWON:  That's fair enough.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Well, yes.  It's in his interview which has the

Page 29786

 1     65 ter number 24035.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But for the record, line 11, page 35, the "yes" was

 3     said by the witness, not by the accused.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.  Now, unless we want to bring up the

 5     witness's interview which the accused is free to do in re-direct, I

 6     propose to move on.

 7        Q.   I would like to now ask you a few questions, Mr. Gengo, about a

 8     location known as Spicasta Stijena.  That -- you know this location?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The VRS held it throughout the 1992 to 1995 conflict; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Was there one evening, I believe, that it fell under ABiH control

14     for one evening; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And what month or year was that in?

17        A.   In September.  I believe that it was on the 18th of September.

18        Q.   Of which year?

19        A.   1994.

20        Q.   Now, apart from that evening it was under the control of the VRS

21     throughout the conflict; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, from Spicasta Stijena you had an excellent view of that part

24     of the city of Sarajevo?

25        A.   Only the part known as Sedrenik.

Page 29787

 1        Q.   But it's certainly an excellent location to place, for example, a

 2     sniper unit if you wanted to strike people in Sedrenik, isn't it?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Why do you say that?

 5        A.   Because my three trenches on Spicasta Stijena were under

 6     cross-fire from the enemy, from Kresa on the right and from Borovo on the

 7     left.  They were always under cross-fire, and I had to dig those three

 8     trenches on Spicasta Stijena and I -- I can show you how the men who

 9     defended their part of the village approached those trenches.  I could

10     not have the snipers there.  I did not have them.  They were not trained,

11     in any case.  In any case, that part of Sedrenik is up to 1200 metres

12     away and the difference in altitude is about 1600 metres -- 2600 metres.

13     Spicasta Stijena is at 900 metres, Sedrenik is at 630 metres.  It was

14     impossible to open fire under those conditions.  It would have been

15     impossible even in peacetime, let alone under the conditions that we were

16     in during the war.

17        Q.   We agree that Spicasta Stijena does have an excellent view of

18     Sedrenik, don't we?

19        A.   Yes, there's a good view if it's not obstructed by someone.

20        Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 35, you said:

21             "There were no trained sniper shooters in my battalion."

22             Now, I want to talk about the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.  You

23     worked at the command of the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade from

24     September 1992 until -- until January 1994?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29788

 1        Q.   You were in charge of technical supplies?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You worked under General Lizdek?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did the brigade have sniper weapons?

 6        A.   Yes, as per establishment.

 7        Q.   About how many sniper weapons did it have?

 8        A.   Well, I don't know how many exactly, but it had M76

 9     sniper rifles, JNA establishment rifles.

10        Q.   Right.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  We'll take this up after the break.  Your Honour, we

12     can take a break now if Your Honours wish.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before we take a break, Mr. Gengo, I checked some

14     evidence we have about the organisation of the SRK, and I noted there are

15     two separate regiments with respect to artillery.  One is the 4th MAP,

16     which is called mixed artillery regiment; and the other seems to be

17     4th mixed anti-tank artillery regiment which was abbreviated as MPO --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An artillery regiment, not an

19     anti-tank regiment.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Which was abbreviated as MPOAP.  Does it ring a

21     bell, Mr. Gengo?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A mixed anti-armour regiment, a

25     regiment.

Page 29789

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at five past.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber needs to rise at the end of today at

 7     2.30, so we asked around with the staff and thanks to the kind

 8     understanding we have decided to reduce the lunch break to half an hour

 9     today.  So we'll take a break from 12.30 to 1.00.

10             Yes, Mr. Robinson, I was told that you had something to raise.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  You will recall that

12     Dr. Karadzic asked for a reference from Mr. Gaynor to portions of the

13     interview that the OTP had conducted with this witness and we never

14     actually received the page reference but we did receive the

15     65 ter number.  But in looking through that interview it raises some

16     concerns that what Mr. Gaynor was putting to the witness is not

17     accurately reflected -- reflecting what was said in the interview.  And I

18     point out, first of all, the question that Judge Baird came back to which

19     is at page 17 of the transcript on lines 22 and 25, about whether or not

20     Colonel Lizdek had to seek authority from anyone for approval.  And on

21     line 22, Mr. Gaynor said:

22             "I suggest that you told me in our interview that only with the

23     authorisation of General Galic first and later from General Milosevic

24     could Lizdek approve the firing of a mortar round."

25             And when going back to the actual interview on page 9 the

Page 29790

 1     question first was asked about through Colonel Lizdek you had to get

 2     authorisation and he said yes.  And then:  Who was his immediate

 3     superior?  General Milosevic.  And then Mr. Gaynor asked him:  And

 4     Milosevic himself could order the use of a mortar.  And the answer from

 5     Mr. Gengo was:

 6             "I don't know.  I'm really not familiar with that line of duty."

 7             So we don't believe that Mr. Gaynor accurately put to the witness

 8     what he had said earlier.

 9             I have another point I want to make before I finish.  And that is

10     during the examination Mr. Gaynor suggested to the witness that he had

11     not previously indicated in his statement that they were firing at the

12     forward feature of the Jajce barracks, that he had only said in his

13     statement that they were firing at the Jajce barracks.  But in fact, on

14     page 25 of the interview, Mr. Gengo informed Mr. Gaynor that -- he said

15     that we were firing at the barracks Jajce, but that's forward feature,

16     that's not the Jajce barracks itself.  And we believe that it's improper

17     for Mr. Gaynor to suggest to the witness that he had said something in

18     the past that was inconsistent with his current testimony when Mr. Gaynor

19     has in the very same interview information that the witness said

20     something totally consistent with his testimony.

21             So based on those two items we're concerned that the witness --

22     that things are being put to the witness unfairly, and we would like to

23     have in the future references from Mr. Gaynor if he's going to refer to

24     this interview.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I think I understood your first point, but I'm not

Page 29791

 1     sure about the second point you raised, Mr. Robinson.  When Mr. Gaynor

 2     referred to Mr. Gengo's statement did he refer to the 92 ter statement or

 3     the interview?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  He referred to the 92 ter statement, but yet --

 5     knowing that the witness had said in the interview that they were firing

 6     at the forward positions.  So I think as an advocate when you -- if

 7     you're trying to show that the witness has been mislead -- has been

 8     saying something inconsistent, if you have another more recent consistent

 9     statement, I don't think that it's proper to simply suggest that the

10     witness is lying now because he said something different earlier.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think Mr. Gaynor said Mr. Gengo was lying

12     not talking about a forward position in his 92 ter statement, but let's

13     move on.

14             Yes, do you have any observation in response?

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Well, two observations.  I'm slightly concerned that

16     Mr. Robinson has now mis-characterised the words of the interview.  So we

17     can either have the page in question of my interview with Mr. Gengo

18     admitted in evidence or I can simply read out the relevant question and

19     answer so that Your Honours have a full picture of that.  I can simply

20     read the questions and answers into the transcript right now if you wish.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  All right.  The --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Or shall we --

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Let's put that up.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Put questions to the witness when the witness is

Page 29792

 1     here.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  We can do that, yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  What is your -- another observation?

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Right, the second observation is this:  My point was

 5     that the witness in his statement referred to Jajce barracks.  He then

 6     showed up here, and in his interview with me he moved away from that and

 7     he said, Well, I was talking about the forward --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Let's not spend more time.  I dealt with that

 9     already.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's bring in the witness.  I overlapped again.

12     What I said, Let's not go there -- I already forgot, but I said I dealt

13     with it already.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Perhaps the Registrar -- thank you, Mr. President.

15     Perhaps the Registrar could bring up 65 ter 24035, page 9, and we'll

16     simply clarify the point with the witness.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm going to read to you a portion of an English

21     language transcript of my interview with you, and I'd like to give you

22     the opportunity to comment upon that if you have any comments to make.

23     Now, on the page which is in front of the other participants in the

24     courtroom at line 5 I said:

25             "Okay.  Take, for example, if you wanted to fire a mortar.  Could

Page 29793

 1     you order the firing of the mortar?  Or could the mortar crew order the

 2     firing of the mortar or did you have to go through Colonel Lizdek?"

 3             You responded:

 4             "Through Colonel Lizdek because," there's an unintelligible word

 5     then, "already the use of heavy weaponry and you had to get an

 6     authorisation from your respective superior command, because later you

 7     would have to justify the use of it."

 8             My question:

 9             "Okay.  Now, was he authorised to approve the use of a mortar

10     himself or did he have to get authorisation from another level?"

11             Your response:

12             "I understand, as far as I know, he would have to go in depth,

13     meaning to ask from his superiors."

14             Answer -- sorry, excuse me, my question:

15             "And who was his immediate superior?"

16             Your answer:

17             "General Milosevic."

18             My question:

19             "And Milosevic himself could order the use of mortar?"

20             Your answer:

21             "I don't know.  I'm not really familiar with that line of duty."

22             Now, Mr. Witness, we clarified earlier that General Milosevic was

23     the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   His predecessor was commander -- was General Galic; correct?

Page 29794

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Would you like to make any clarifications whatsoever to the

 3     portion of the transcript that I've read out?

 4        A.   Well, it's not necessary.  This is how things worked.  This is

 5     how the chain of command functioned.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             Could I ask, please, for P5945.

10        Q.   And we were talking about the question of sniper rifles within

11     the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.  The document that's coming up is from

12     General Lizdek of the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.  It's dated the

13     29th of October, 1993, and I think we can see from it that Lizdek notes

14     that his brigade has a total of 68 sniper rifles, 50 plus 14 plus 14.  Do

15     you agree with that?

16        A.   Yes, that's probably correct.  I didn't verify this, but yes,

17     sniper rifles.

18        Q.   And further down he says they had trained snipers from lower

19     units.  If we can go further down the English language, please.

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   It's --

22        A.   I didn't -- I didn't have any such things.

23        Q.   In -- I accept your answer.  In this document Lizdek says that

24     they had trained snipers from lower units.  Now, we also see that the

25     sniper rifles in this document were 7.9-millimetre calibre and

Page 29795

 1     7.62-millimetre calibre; isn't that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, were you involved in securing the delivery of large

 4     quantities of 7.62-millimetre rifles and ammunition from the VJ to the

 5     VRS in 1995?

 6        A.   Well, requests were certainly made to the technical and

 7     maintenance system.  I can't remember what sort of requests.  And then

 8     items were sent back.  I can't remember the exact number, but this was an

 9     issue that was dealt with.

10        Q.   Can we call up, please, P1279.  This is a communication from

11     General Dragomir Milosevic to the VRS Main Staff dated the

12     10th of July, 1995.  Do you see in this document - perhaps it can be

13     enlarged for you if necessary - that it seeks --

14        A.   I can see it.

15        Q.   And it seeks the delivery of over 600, 7.62-millimetre rifles?

16        A.   I see that.

17        Q.   They're clearly spelled out in the document itself.  It also

18     seeks the delivery of 378.000 bullets for 7.62-millimetre automatic

19     rifles.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  If we can move down the English, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that.

22             MR. GAYNOR:

23        Q.   Fine.  I'll move on now to the Mostanica spring.  You say in your

24     statement at paragraph 29 -- sorry, just returning to that document, you

25     do confirm, therefore, that you personally were involved in facilitating

Page 29796

 1     the supply from the VJ to the VRS of very large quantities of ammunition

 2     for 7.62-millimetre rifles; you accept that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We'll turn now to paragraph 29 of your statement and

 5     there you refer to the Mostanica spring which you say was located in your

 6     battalion's zone of responsibility.  Could we clarify whether you are

 7     referring to the Moscanica spring?

 8        A.   Yes, it's behind Moscanica and it is from there that part of the

 9     town of Sarajevo is supplied.

10        Q.   Now, you say:

11             "The VRS provided security for this water-supply line, made

12     UNPROFOR's access possible, and that of the teams from Sarajevo in order

13     to do checks and repairs and the water was never deliberately switched

14     off."

15             Now, that observation does not apply to the entirety of the

16     conflict, does it?

17        A.   I was talking about the period during which the battalion was

18     under my command, about the period during which this was my

19     responsibility.

20        Q.   Do you accept that the Serb side did, in fact, deliberately

21     switch off water-supplies from the Moscanica spring during the conflict?

22        A.   I'm not aware of that.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I ask the Registrar, please, for 65 ter 1D02137.

24        Q.   This document, Mr. Gengo, is only available in English so I will

25     read to you the relevant paragraph.  It's an UNPROFOR document dating

Page 29797

 1     from October 1993.  If we can go, please, to page 3 in the English, and

 2     there are a number of paragraphs marked by asterisks at the second half

 3     of this document.  And if we look at the bottom of the page, the

 4     penultimate paragraph says:

 5             "WHO experts suggest that the biggest humanitarian problem facing

 6     Sarajevo at the moment may be water.  Recent shelling has cut the

 7     electricity to the Bacevo pumping station and has further disrupted the

 8     water distribution system.  In addition, the Serbs have now cut off water

 9     coming from Moscanica, the small back-up system the city used to use when

10     Bacevo was not functioning.  The amount of available water in Sarajevo

11     has consequently shrunk considerably.  The incidence of Hepatitis A in

12     the city is increasing.  An epidemic is possible."

13             Do you accept that on the basis of this document alone it appears

14     that the Serb side did cut off water coming from Moscanica?

15        A.   I'm not aware of that.  The water-supply wasn't cut off in my

16     time.  Things functioned normally.  So I don't know.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Now, I'd like to tender that document unless there's

18     an objection.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we do object.  The witness

20     hasn't confirmed anything.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  I think we're back at the understanding I thought we

22     had reached with the Defence where if the document sufficiently

23     contradicts the witness's evidence, it is admissible on that basis.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, and I understand that, Mr. President, but

25     since the witness indicated that during -- it wasn't during his time,

Page 29798

 1     then I don't think it directly contradicts and doesn't fall into this

 2     category.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Well it's ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers].

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I think you have another opportunity to tender this

 6     document.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Now to orient everyone, the rest of the cross-examination will

 9     concern the Markale incident of the 5th of February, 1994.  I want to

10     start with the background to that incident --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, can I ask one question --

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  -- to Mr. Gengo.  I take it you've been staying in

14     The Hague for a long time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  My question was whether by any chance you followed

17     the testimony of Mr. Dzida?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was in Sarajevo at the time.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  If I can just clarify that he

21     did have to return to Sarajevo.  He just came in on Sunday night.  He was

22     here for the first week and not called and then he went back home, so he

23     wasn't actually in The Hague during Mr. Dzida's testimony.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And from Sarajevo you didn't hear the testimony of

25     Mr. Dzida?

Page 29799

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Paragraph 33 which is on page 10 of your statement, you say:

 5             "There have never been plans to move our lines forward.  It was

 6     the Muslims who kept attacking our positions.  Their increased artillery

 7     activity had been notices since early 1994, usually followed by constant

 8     infantry attacks."

 9             Do I understand it that in the period the weeks preceding the

10     5th of February, 1994, there were no plans by the SRK to undertake

11     offensive operations in the Sarajevo area?

12        A.   No, there were never such plans.

13        Q.   And is it your evidence that there was no direction to your

14     brigade in particular to undertake any offensive operations against the

15     urban part of Sarajevo in the period before 5th of February, 1994.

16        A.   No.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, 65 ter 15575.

18        Q.   The document that's coming up, Mr. Gengo, is an order from

19     General Galic dated the 26th of January, 1994.  We can agree I think that

20     this is about ten days before the shelling of the market-place; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   If we could turn, please, to page 6 in English and page 4 of the

23     original.  At the end of section 2 there is a reference to:

24             "Continue with offensive activities and liberate the Serb part of

25     the city of Sarajevo."

Page 29800

 1             Do you see that?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   I'd like to take you to two -- well, first of all, can I ask you:

 4     Is that consistent with your assertion that there were no plans for any

 5     offensive operations at this time?

 6        A.   When it comes to my battalion, I never had such an order.  There

 7     were never offensive activities planned.  I was never involved in any

 8     such thing.  My only duty and all I did was to defend my positions.

 9        Q.   I'll take you to two other parts of this document.  If we can go

10     now, please, to page 8 in English which is page 6 in B/C/S.  This part

11     arises, I think, in a part of the document headed "decision of the

12     commander."  And if we look halfway down in English and in the third

13     paragraph in the original, Mr. Gengo, it reads, I quote:

14             "Further in the operation by holding the MOS in Sarajevo firmly

15     encircled, inflicting casualties, preventing supplies from arriving, and

16     preventing evacuations, using all means to exasperate them and with

17     offensive activities along the following axes:

18     Lukavica-Vojkovici-Hrasnica-Ilidza and Hadzici-Tarcin-Ivan Sedlo ..." and

19     the order carries on.

20             Now, that, I put it to you, is also inconsistent with your

21     statement that there were no plans for any offensive actions.

22        A.   In the area of responsibility of my battalion there were no such

23     things and that transpires from this paragraph and I was not responsible

24     for any other zone.

25        Q.   Right.  Let's move -- you were at this time -- your battalion was

Page 29801

 1     in the 1st Rpbr, wasn't it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And that is the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade, isn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you've confirmed earlier in your evidence that you had

 6     satisfactory communications from your battalion to that brigade?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Could we turn now to page 9 in English and page 7 in B/C/S --

 9     sorry, make that page 10 in English.  I'm looking at the start of

10     paragraph 5.2 which is halfway down in B/C/S and towards the top of the

11     page in English.  Now, the 1st Rpbr is the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade,

12     isn't it?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You've already confirmed that your battalion was in that infantry

15     brigade.  I want to draw your attention to --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to five lines down in the

18     English version and the fourth line in the B/C/S version, and in

19     particular I'd like you to consider the words:

20             "...  put the Muslim forces under control in the urban part of

21     Sarajevo ..."

22             Do you see those words?

23        A.   Please repeat.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let the witness to read out the first paragraph.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 29802

 1        Q.   Could you read out the first paragraph after -- in paragraph 5.2.

 2     Perhaps you can read it out loud, Mr. Witness.

 3        A.   Well, I understand this.  I'm clearly on this.  However, I did

 4     not participate in that.  My only task was to hold my positions reached

 5     and that was it.  There was nothing else to that on my part.

 6        Q.   But do you accept that according to this document there was a

 7     plan ten days before the shelling of the market-place and that plan

 8     envisaged that your brigade should put the Muslim forces under control in

 9     the urban part of Sarajevo; do you accept that?

10        A.   I did not have that document.  I did not have this order.

11        Q.   I accept that you didn't have this order according to your

12     evidence, but do you accept that is what is envisaged by this order?

13        A.   I can read that.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5968, Your Honours.

18             MR. GAYNOR:

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I'd like to turn now to the question of the

20     mixed UNPROFOR/VRS commission, which you describe at paragraph 32 of your

21     statement, and this - so everyone is aware - will take a fair portion of

22     time.  First of all, can you tell us when you first heard about the

23     shelling of the market-place on the 5th of February, 1994?

24        A.   I heard the information on the radio that same evening, that a

25     shell had fallen on the market-place, that there had been casualties.  I

Page 29803

 1     heard it on Sarajevo radio.

 2        Q.   Did you also see images on television?

 3        A.   I did too.

 4        Q.   Where were you when you saw those -- that footage on the

 5     television?

 6        A.   I was at the battalion command on Hresevo.

 7        Q.   What station was it on, what television channel?

 8        A.   BH.

 9        Q.   What was your immediate reaction to the incident?

10        A.   It looked ugly, but I could tell that it had been staged.

11        Q.   You could tell by looking at the television footage that it had

12     been staged; is that your evidence?

13        A.   Well, from what I could observe, the bodies, and some other

14     details that could be seen in the market-place, I could conclude that

15     everything had been prepared in advance.

16        Q.   Was Dzida at the battalion command with you while you were

17     watching that broadcast?

18        A.   I don't remember, but I don't think so.

19        Q.   Now, you said in your statement that on the following day the

20     mixed commission arrived, but you first heard -- let's go back to

21     paragraph 32 at the start.  You were informed on the 5th of February

22     itself by the command of the 1st Romanija Motorised Brigade via the duty

23     battalion that an inspection team would come to the zone of

24     responsibility of your battalion.  That was on the 5th of February, 1994;

25     is that right?

Page 29804

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, when did you tell Dzida about the arrival of this

 3     inspection?

 4        A.   I told him immediately and I told him to be ready to go with them

 5     when they came.  They arrived around 10.00 in two vehicles, one of them

 6     belonging to UNPROFOR, the other to the Main Staff, and I sent him to go

 7     with them, to take them where they wanted to go.

 8        Q.   Can we clarify, did you tell Dzida about the commission on the

 9     5th or the 6th of February, 1994?

10        A.   I watched the TV on the 5th, and on the 6th the commission came

11     around 10.00 on that same morning.  On the 6th I told him to get ready to

12     go with them.

13        Q.   Now, you say in your statement that the commission requested a

14     person from the battalion command who would take them to Mrkovici sector

15     and the firing position of the 120-millimetre mortar which was suspected

16     of being the weapon which fired the grenade at the Markale market.  First

17     of all, can we clarify as a matter of linguistics that the word you used

18     for "grenade," do you mean --

19        A.   I mean a shell, a grenade.  It's all the same.

20        Q.   Is it correct that the word you used refers to a mortar round,

21     the word "grenata" in this context means mortar round; isn't that right?

22        A.   Well, yes, yes, of course, of course.

23        Q.   Now, you must have been deeply concerned when you heard the

24     suggestion that a mortar unit under your command might have been

25     responsible for what many believe to have been a massacre at the

Page 29805

 1     Markale market-place on the 5th of February?

 2        A.   Please repeat.

 3        Q.   Yes.  You must have been deeply concerned when you heard the

 4     suggestion that a mortar unit under your command might have been

 5     responsible for what many believe to have been a massacre at the

 6     Markale market-place on the 5th of February?

 7        A.   Of course.  It was not like it was -- I was indifferent to it.

 8     But I know that it had not happened, so I was relieved in a way.

 9        Q.   You must have been determined to make it absolutely clear that no

10     mortar unit acting under your command was involved in this incident?

11        A.   I claim with full responsibility that it didn't.

12        Q.   My question was about your frame of mind at the time.  Can you

13     confirm that you felt strongly that it should be shown that no mortar

14     unit under your command was responsible for this incident?

15        A.   Of course it was not involved.  I was relieved because I knew

16     that it hadn't been involved.  I knew it then, I know it now, and I stand

17     by that.

18        Q.   So you knew even before the commission had set off that no mortar

19     unit under your command was involved; is that your evidence?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you name the members of the commission, first of all on the

22     UNPROFOR side.  Which UNPROFOR representatives arrived at your battalion

23     headquarters?

24        A.   I wouldn't know.  I only know who the representative of the

25     brigade was.  He was always in charge of UNPROFOR.  He was warrant

Page 29806

 1     officer Jakovljevic.  I know that he was with them.  He got out of the

 2     vehicle.  He greeted me.  Dzida got into the car.  They went to the

 3     scene.  They spent about three hours there, and Major Dzida briefed me.

 4     He gave me his feedback and that was that the commission had measured the

 5     distances, that it had established the -- controlling the mortars, that

 6     no fire had been opened from our positions.  They had gone through all

 7     the motions.  They had done whatever they had to do and that's what they

 8     established.

 9        Q.   How many UNPROFOR representatives were in this commission?

10        A.   I wouldn't know.  They were in the vehicle, they never got out of

11     the vehicle, and I never counted them.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to intervene on the

13     transcript.  The witness said that they also uncovered the mortars, and

14     that was not recorded.

15             MR. GAYNOR:

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, it's your evidence that no member of this

17     UNPROFOR team got out of the vehicle when they arrived at your battalion

18     command; is that right?

19        A.   The vehicles arrived and nobody got out of them.

20        Q.   You don't remember by any chance the nationality of any UNPROFOR

21     member of this team?

22        A.   No, how should I remember them?  They never got out of the car.

23     I never saw them.  I don't know who they were.

24        Q.   And just for clarity, you don't know the first name nor the

25     surname of any member of the UNPROFOR contingent?

Page 29807

 1        A.   You mean of those who came on that day?  I don't remember any of

 2     them.

 3        Q.   Could you name the members -- you've given us one name,

 4     Jakovljevic.  Could you name the other members of this mixed commission

 5     on the VRS side.

 6        A.   Nobody but Jakovljevic got out.  I saw him.  I did not see -- I

 7     did not see any others.  I didn't inspect their IDs.  The commission had

 8     been set up by the Main Staff and it was not up to me to check who they

 9     were.

10        Q.   You decided not to go with the commission yourself.  You sent

11     Dzida instead; isn't that right?

12        A.   He was always in charge of that part.  Whenever the observers

13     came, he would escort them to wherever they wanted to go.  That was his

14     regular duty.  That was part of his job.

15        Q.   Now, Lizdek didn't go with the commission either, did he?

16        A.   No, just his representative went.  I don't know who he was.

17        Q.   Now, when the commission came back to you having conducted this

18     inspection, what did Dzida tell you?

19        A.   He told me that it had been established that no fire had been

20     opened from our mortars, the mortars were there, they had never been

21     moved, and everything was found to be in order there.

22        Q.   This was extremely important information, wasn't it?

23        A.   Well, of course, yes, it was.  Indeed.

24        Q.   No doubt you asked Dzida to put it in writing in a report

25     addressed to you?

Page 29808

 1        A.   Of course he wrote a report, and that report was sent to the

 2     brigade command and I suppose that the brigade's representative drafted a

 3     report on his part.

 4        Q.   Did you receive a copy of Dzida's report?

 5        A.   I did.

 6        Q.   And did you keep it safely?

 7        A.   Together with the rest of the battalion documents.

 8        Q.   Now, did you take steps yourself to make sure that the brigade

 9     command and indeed the corps command were fully aware of the outcome of

10     this inspection?

11        A.   Sir, there were representatives of a higher instance there and

12     they were the ones who report to the brigade command, the corps command,

13     the Main Staff.  They were higher-ranking officers who were appointed to

14     that commission, and it would have been out of order for me to teach them

15     how to proceed on those matters.

16        Q.   Now, apart from the report drafted by Dzida that you referred to,

17     did Jakovljevic draft a separate report?

18        A.   I suppose he did to the 1st Romanija Brigade, to those who had

19     sent him there.

20        Q.   Did anyone from this mixed commission provide you with

21     photographs or videos or sketches of the scene; that is to say the

22     location at Mrkovici where --

23        A.   No.  No, no.

24        Q.   Now, I'll -- I'm going to bring up a series of documents and

25     we're going to look for reference to this inspection on the

Page 29809

 1     6th of February, 1994, and the documents will start on the 5th and then

 2     will go on.  So I'd like to call up, please, 65 ter number 23901.  This

 3     is a regular combat report to the SRK command of the

 4     5th of February, 1994.  The top of page 2 in English, please.  And in the

 5     middle of -- sorry, at the bottom of page 1 in B/C/S we see the words:

 6             "First UNPROFOR reports on an alleged massacre are that the

 7     possible axis of attack was from the 1st Kosevo Infantry Brigade's

 8     direction."

 9             It straddles pages 1 and 2 in the English.  Do you see that,

10     Mr. Gengo?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   So first of all clarify one thing for the Court, please.

13     According to this document, the allegation is that the attack was from

14     the 1st Kosevo Infantry Brigade's direction.  That's not your brigade, is

15     it?

16        A.   No.  The Kosevo Battalion was down there under the 3rd

17     Sarajevo Brigade, not the brigade.

18        Q.   Now, are you aware of any inspection of mortars operated by the

19     1st Kosevo Infantry Brigade?

20        A.   I don't.  I don't know.

21        Q.   Now, this document -- take your time to inspect it if you like.

22     But there's no reference to any intended visit by a mixed commission.

23        A.   On the 5th?  What is the date of this document, please?

24        Q.   This document is the 5th of February.  There's no reference in

25     this.  My point is this --

Page 29810

 1        A.   The commission arrived on the 6th, not on the 5th, and in -- on

 2     the 6th, in the morning, I was informed that they would be arriving.

 3        Q.   Very well.  But there's certainly no reference to any intended

 4     visit by a commission in this document, is there?

 5        A.   How could they have planned it if they didn't?  I was only

 6     informed that they would be arriving and that I should provide somebody

 7     to escort them and it was the Main Staff and UNPROFOR who had planned

 8     that inspection.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5969, Your Honours.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to call up, please, 65 ter 23884.  This

14     is an order from General Galic to all SRK units dated the

15     5th of February, 1994.

16        Q.   This is -- this document is a ban on fire against the urban part

17     of Sarajevo according to its header, and I will -- you can see from the

18     opening paragraph he says that:

19             "Despite explicit orders, certain units, individuals, and

20     artillery weapons crews have arbitrary and without approval been opening

21     fire on urban parts of Sarajevo without need, instances of which have no

22     effect."

23             The paragraph after that he refers to the fact that Sarajevo was

24     the focus of media and world attention and then he gives an order.  And

25     in that order he strictly forbids the opening of fire towards the urban

Page 29811

 1     part of Sarajevo without a special order of the corps commander except in

 2     the event of our positions being jeopardised and the lives of the

 3     combatants being threatened.  Now, do you agree that this is an order to

 4     stop the offensive firing of weapons into the urban part of Sarajevo

 5     unless otherwise instructed?

 6        A.   Yes.  Orders frequently came instructing us to honour

 7     cease-fires, not to open fire.  This was not the first order of that

 8     kind.  It was constantly pressed upon us to respect cease-fires.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P5970.

13             MR. GAYNOR:

14        Q.   Now, I'd like to draw your attention briefly to two documents

15     from Milovanovic in which he does raise the possibility of a

16     Joint Commission.  So can we please bring up D2182.  This is an order

17     from Milovanovic calling for the establishment of a Joint Commission.

18     Now, in the third paragraph we're looking there at an UNMO translation.

19     In the third paragraph down which is paragraph number 2, it says:

20             "The work of the mixed expert artillery commission has to be

21     documented (TV camera, photo shot, sketch, scheme, and so on) with all

22     the necessary facts and figures."

23             So I think there -- we can agree that there was an intention to

24     establish a Joint Commission; isn't that right, Mr. Gengo?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the date for this

Page 29812

 1     document.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  First let's show the second page to the witness.

 3     This is a letter of General Milovanovic written in English to the

 4     UNPROFOR.  And then shall we show the first page.  On top of the page it

 5     is written that it is 5th of February and 3.30 on 6th -- 4.30, something

 6     to that effect.  Yeah, date seems to be 5th of February, 4.30 in the

 7     afternoon.

 8             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   So it seems from this document that Milovanovic did hold an

11     intention to form a Joint Commission.  Can we agree on that, Mr. Gengo?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  Based on this document I suppose so.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why doesn't the witness have a

14     Serbian version?  Because in the text it says the 5th of January;

15     however, it is clear that this was drafted on the 5th of February.  It

16     would be good for the witness to be provided with a Serbian version which

17     is also the original of this document.  There must be one in place.  I'm

18     sure there is.

19             JUDGE KWON:  If you have, you can put it to the witness.

20             Let's continue, Mr. Gaynor.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Now, you've already confirmed, but I'd like you to re-confirm,

23     that you never saw, Mr. Gengo, any television footage, any photos,

24     sketches, or plans from the Joint Commission that you observed, did you?

25        A.   Yes, I never did.  Only on television.

Page 29813

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to call up, please, D2183.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Before we go further.

 3             Mr. Karadzic, it is you that tendered the previous document, and

 4     here you are asking for the B/C/S version.  I think it's quite

 5     inappropriate intervention.

 6             Let's continue.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we uploaded the document in

 9     the Serbian language.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Unfortunately, no, I couldn't see it in B/C/S in the

11     e-court.

12             Let's continue.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Now, on the left we can see the B/C/S original.  On the right is

15     an English translation of this document which appears to have been

16     created by UNPROFOR.  Now, the part of this I want to draw your attention

17     to, Mr. Gengo, is the part where General Milovanovic says that he has

18     been informed that the Muslim side refuses to take part in the

19     establishing and work of the joint military expert commission.  And two

20     paragraphs later, this is in the fourth paragraph:

21             "Since the Muslim side is refusing to take part in the work of

22     the mixed expert military commission, the headquarters of the

23     Army of the Republic of Srpska is convinced that it has planned and

24     instigated this dreadful massacre."

25             And he goes on to deny any involvement or responsibility in what

Page 29814

 1     he describes as this evil crime.

 2             So I put it to you that this was, in fact, the end of the idea of

 3     General Milovanovic to form a Joint Commission.  Well, before you answer

 4     that, let me draw your attention to one more part of it, Mr. Gengo.  He

 5     says that:

 6             "The UNPROFOR command refuses that the Chief of Staff of UNPROFOR

 7     and the Chief of Staff of the so-called Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

 8     together with," it continues on the next page in English, "the Chief of

 9     Staff of the Army of the Republic of Srpska go to the scene of the crime

10     and uncover the consequences and the circumstances of this tragedy."

11             I put it to you that when he says the "scene of crime" there he's

12     talking about the suspected origin of fire in VRS territory.  So again I

13     put it to you, Mr. Gengo, that this was the end of General Milovanovic's

14     idea of a Joint Commission.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where can we find this?  Where is

16     this written?

17             MR. GAYNOR:  I've just read from the last paragraph of the

18     document.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, just a second.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what it is you would

21     like me to say --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Please hold on, everybody.  Please slow down on your

23     part as well.  And please do not overlap while the interpretation is

24     going on.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene now?  Where does it

Page 29815

 1     say what Milovanovic means by the "scene of the crime"?  And how can this

 2     refer to the location where shots were fired from, where shells were

 3     fired from, when the location in question is Markale?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- let -- let's go back.

 5             So you read out the passage.  Could you put your question again.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Certainly.

 7        Q.   We'll leave the scene of the crime for a moment, Mr. Gengo.  But

 8     do you agree that from this document it appears that

 9     General Milovanovic's idea of a Joint Commission came to a premature end

10     and there was no Joint Commission?

11        A.   Well, I couldn't say.  I'm not familiar with what happened.  All

12     I know is that the commission came to see me, but as to who organised it,

13     it wasn't for me to give much thought to such matters.

14        Q.   Very well.  And I would like to put it to you that where

15     General Milovanovic refers to a visit by the ABiH, the VRS, and UNPROFOR

16     to the scene of the crime, he is - in the context of this

17     letter - referring to the origin of fire.  I put that interpretation to

18     you.

19        A.   I don't know what was at stake, what requests they had made.  I

20     know nothing about that.

21        Q.   I'd now like to move to the 6th of February, 1994, and we'll call

22     up, please, 1D01655.  This, Mr. Gengo, is a regular combat report,

23     reporting the situation at 1600 hours on the 6th of February, 1994.  The

24     report is to the SRK command.  Now, in paragraph 3 --

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, it's written by the SRK.

Page 29816

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, we're -- just after this we're about

 2     to come to a document which appears to go from the SRK command to the VRS

 3     Main Staff.  It's my understanding that this particular document is a

 4     document preceding that later document which is to the SRK command.  But

 5     I'm quite happy for that to be clarified.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It's signed by General Milosevic, wasn't it?  Very

 7     well.  Let's continue.  I leave it there.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I would like to

 9     make sure I'm showing Your Honours the correct document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You can see the list.  Can we see the page 2, both

11     versions, on the e-court.  Page 2.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  This is, indeed, signed by General Milosevic.

13     I'm grateful to Your Honour.

14        Q.   Now, I think we see at paragraph 3 of this document if we could

15     go to -- first of all, on this page at least, Mr. Witness, there is no

16     reference to a visit of a Joint Commission; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If we can go to the preceding page, please.  Now, in this

19     document, as the Presiding Judge has correctly pointed out, it is from

20     General Milosevic.  Again, there is no reference to a visit of a

21     Joint Commission; although, it does at paragraph 3 refer to a meeting on

22     events in Sarajevo which was held in the corps command attended by

23     President Karadzic, General Gvero, UNPROFOR, and UN representatives.

24        A.   Yes, I can see that.

25        Q.   So you agree that there's no reference in this document anywhere

Page 29817

 1     to this visit of the Joint Commission that you've given evidence about?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, please, Mr. President.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5971 , Your Honours.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to call up now, please, 65 ter 24034.

 8        Q.   This document is to the VRS Main Staff from the SRK command dated

 9     the 6th of February, 1994, and it's a regular combat report with the

10     situation at 1800 hours.  Once again -- well, first of all, we can

11     observe that this replicates much of the information that we saw in the

12     earlier report.  Again in paragraph 3 we see the reference to a meeting

13     held at the corps command attended by President Radovan Karadzic,

14     Major-General Gvero, and UNPROFOR and UN representatives.  What we do not

15     see, Mr. Gengo, is any reference whatsoever to the mixed commission visit

16     which you said took place earlier on the day of this document.

17        A.   The commission paid a visit.  I don't know whose orders they were

18     following.  This is something I'm not aware of.

19        Q.   But do you accept that this document does not refer to that

20     visit?

21        A.   It doesn't refer to it.

22        Q.   Right.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 29818

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5972, Your Honours.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to call up, please, now 1D01656.

 3        Q.   We're moving now to the 8th of February, 1994.  This is a regular

 4     combat report dealing with the position at 1600 hours on the

 5     8th of February, and there's no reference in this to a mixed commission

 6     either.  Take your time to read it, Mr. Gengo, if you wish.

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   So you agree there is no reference to that mixed commission, is

 9     there?

10        A.   That's correct.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5973, Your Honours.

14             MR. GAYNOR:

15        Q.   Mr. Gengo, we'll move on a week now to the

16     14th of February, 1994.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, D2378.

18        Q.   This is a document from Colonel Radislav Cvetkovic to the SRK

19     command and to the VRS Main Staff.  He says in the opening paragraph of

20     this document - if we can go down a little further in the English,

21     please - that he was appointed to an international committee on the

22     14th of February -- excuse me, correction, on the 13th of February, 1994.

23     Now, that's eight days after the purported visit on the

24     6th of February, 1994, isn't it, Mr. Gengo?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29819

 1        Q.   Now, if we have a look at page 3 in the English we see that he

 2     says -- well, first of all, if we can go up a little on the English

 3     version.  Well, he says in this document that as a representative of the

 4     VRS he was asked by the members of the commission for technical

 5     information proving that the Serbian side did not launch the shell.  Do

 6     you see that reference?

 7        A.   Yes, but it's not very clear.  Could we zoom in.

 8        Q.   Can you see it better now?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.

10        Q.   Now, does it not strike you as strange that he would say that if

11     it was eight days after you claim that an international commission had

12     already inspected the mortar units at Mrkovici?

13        A.   Well, I don't know the exact dates.  I know this event occurred,

14     but I don't know when exactly.  I did not keep any written records.  But

15     I know that the commission paid a visit; however, I do not remember

16     Cvetkovic paying a visit.

17        Q.   If we can look at the next page in English, please.  And

18     here - that's the next page in B/C/S as well, please - Cvetkovic says:

19             "I strongly denied the possibility that a shell was launched from

20     the Serbian side and offered the commission to visit the suspected

21     place ..."

22             Again, that statement by Cvetkovic is totally inconsistent, is it

23     not, with the fact that the VRS had already brought an international

24     commission to visit the suspected place eight days earlier?

25        A.   The commission paid a visit, but I cannot remember the exact

Page 29820

 1     dates.

 2        Q.   We'll move on, please, to P1441, please.  Now, this next document

 3     is in the English language, Mr. Witness, so I'll tell you briefly what it

 4     is.  It's a compilation of several different documents, most -- the bulk

 5     of this is -- are documents produced by UNPROFOR in the days following

 6     the Markale I massacre.  And I've gone through the entirety of this

 7     bundle of documents, Mr. Gengo.  There's not a single reference to the

 8     mixed commission visit of 6th of February, 1994.  And I'm going to bring

 9     you to three pages of it which I will put to you in due course strongly

10     suggests that that visit never took place.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we go, please, to page 41.  This is a part of

12     annex D.

13        Q.   And this portion of this bundle of documents, Mr. Witness, there

14     is a summary of the evidence of ten UNPROFOR officers and other personnel

15     who were involved in investigations relating to the Markale massacre or

16     the Markale incident, if you prefer, on the 5th of February, 1994.  Not

17     one of those summaries refers to a visit to Mrkovici on the

18     6th of February or any kind of visit to SRK positions.  And on this page

19     we see a reference to Colonel Pardon - under number 9 if we can go down a

20     little - he refers there to an inspection which he attended to mortar

21     positions held by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He says from there

22     they visited a 120-millimetre mortar position in Kosevo stadium where

23     they saw a 120-millimetre mortar.  He then gives its unit, which is M75,

24     number 2977, I should say the mortar unit's number.  And he refers later

25     to a visit to a second position, again of a mortar unit controlled by the

Page 29821

 1     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  There's no reference to any visit to

 2     mortar units controlled by the Bosnian Serbs.

 3             If we can go now, please, to page 44 which is part of Annex E.

 4     This document, Mr. Gengo -- if we can perhaps go to the next page of

 5     this, please.  Yes, sorry, to the previous page at the bottom under

 6     paragraph 4, please.  Just below paragraph 4.  I'll read out the relevant

 7     part of it to you, Mr. Gengo.  It says:

 8             "Colonel Cvetkovic, CO, BSA Artillery Regiment stated that

 9     Kosevo Brigade has mortar positions (including 120-millimetre mortar) in

10     the Mrkovici area (BP 9463).  These positions have not been visited by UN

11     personnel in at least four months, and cannot be located with any

12     accuracy.  Since October 1993, UNMOs have been denied freedom of movement

13     in this brigade area, although most shots fired from the area can be

14     observed from UNMOs in adjacent areas."

15             And finally I'll take you to a third reference in this document,

16     that is in Annex G at page 56.  This page, Mr. Gengo, refers to a meeting

17     held on the 13th of February, 1994, in Pale between some UNPROFOR

18     representatives and Colonel Cvetkovic.  In the second paragraph it says

19     that Colonel Cvetkovic confirmed that he was to act as the Bosnian Serb

20     representative for purposes of the UN investigation into the Sarajevo

21     market explosion of 5th of February, 1994.  Now, if we go down to the

22     fourth paragraph it says:

23             "Colonel Cvetkovic then discussed numerous aspects of the

24     incident in theoretical terms, and offered his personal opinion

25     concerning the validity of events as portrayed by the media.  He had no

Page 29822

 1     specific evidence to offer of direct relevance to the investigation."

 2             Now, Mr. Gengo, I think we can agree that the results of an

 3     inspection of 120-millimetre mortar positions which might have been held

 4     on the 6th of February, 1994, would be of direct relevance to the

 5     investigation, wouldn't it?

 6        A.   That concerns my area of responsibility, my mortars.  As for the

 7     Kosevo mortars, I don't know, I didn't go there, but they continually

 8     visited my area and I co-operated with the UNPROFOR representatives who

 9     kept visiting my area and they would sometimes announce their visits and

10     sometimes they would not.

11        Q.   And do you not find it strange that Colonel Cvetkovic makes no

12     mention whatsoever, according to this note, of the meeting of the

13     inspection of the 6th of February, 1994?

14        A.   Well, it wasn't Cvetkovic who was in charge of the mortars.  He

15     was the commander of a mixed artillery regiment.  He had his guns in that

16     area of responsibility.  He did not have any mortars there.

17        Q.   Are you seriously suggesting that Colonel Cvetkovic would not

18     have been aware of an inspection which had been carried out on the

19     6th of February, 1994, between members of the VRS Main Staff and others

20     with UNPROFOR officials?

21        A.   Well, I don't know about Cvetkovic, whether the Main Staff

22     organised that commission.  I don't know whether and how they organised

23     it and according to whose orders.  I just went to the site, that's all I

24     know.  I'm not aware of anything else.

25        Q.   Okay.  Finally we'll show a brief video-clip.

Page 29823

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  This is 65 ter 45200.  According to the clip, it

 2     appears to date from the 10th of February, 1994.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "I can't answer your questions.  I just want to say that we are

 5     not going -- we don't have any reason to go on with the conference until

 6     we get an international investigatory body to investigate and resolve the

 7     Sarajevo massacre.  I would remind you that Muslims have staged --

 8     managed the killing in bread queue killing 18 of their own people, and

 9     Yugoslavia got sanctions.  Then Muslims have shut down the Italian air

10     traffic and Serbs got no-fly zone resolution.  Now, until this massacre,

11     Serb side getting an ultimatum -- an ultimatum from NATO.  We don't have

12     any reason to go on with the conference until we get commission to

13     investigate every single circumstance and to say publicly who is the

14     responsible for this massacre.

15             "We are going to pose that and to demand an international

16     investigatory body to get findings and to make it public."

17             MR. GAYNOR:

18        Q.   Now, in that -- first of all, for the record, we can agree that

19     that was --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just --

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

24        Q.   We agree, Mr. Gengo, that was President Radovan Karadzic speaking

25     there?

Page 29824

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, in that clip, Radovan Karadzic is calling for an

 3     international investigatory body to get findings; isn't that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And he makes several other references which are along the lines

 6     of the need to get an international commission to look into this

 7     incident; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And he makes no reference whatsoever to any mixed VRS/UNPROFOR

10     commission that might already have been formed in this clip?

11        A.   Every incident that happened on the line caused representatives

12     of UNPROFOR and representatives of the brigade to came -- to come to the

13     scene, and that was the case in every incident that happened in the zone

14     of responsibility.  Controls were stepped-up as soon as something

15     happened.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that clip, Mr. President.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5974, Your Honours.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, I note that it's just beyond 12.30.

21             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer would you need?

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Probably about three minutes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we continue --

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, certainly.

25             JUDGE KWON:  -- and conclude your cross-examination.

Page 29825

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, certainly.  I'd like to bring up an order from

 2     President Karadzic dated the 7th of February.  That's P846, please.

 3        Q.   As you can see, Mr. Witness, this document bears the stamp of the

 4     Presidency of the Republika Srpska, I believe, as well as the signature

 5     of Dr. Karadzic.  In paragraph -- in the first paragraph we see that

 6     Karadzic is saying:

 7             "There is evidence that Serbs are not responding in equal measure

 8     to Muslim artillery provocations - sometimes 20 to 30 or even 70 times

 9     more."

10             Now, I put it to you, Witness, that that statement by

11     President Karadzic is not consistent with your assertion in paragraph 33

12     of your statement that it was the Muslims who kept attacking your

13     positions and to your position that SRK forces were firing back only when

14     fired upon in equal measure?

15        A.   That's correct.  In 1994 and 1995 -- lacked ammunition.  The

16     Muslims had more and that's why they shelled us more.  We had to be

17     economical with our ammunition because we did not have enough.  Our

18     supplies had been depleted.  That's why we did not respond in equal

19     measure to the fire opened by the opposing side.  We didn't have enough

20     ammunition.  At least that was the case in the zone of responsibility of

21     my battalion.  I don't know about the others.  Ammunition was expensive,

22     difficult to get by, and when -- we had to account for every single

23     round, every single bullet, let alone a shell.

24        Q.   Mr. Gengo, you're aware that the president of the republic was

25     receiving constant supply of information from the VRS?

Page 29826

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Well, then why would the president refer to in this document to

 3     retaliation by the Serb side 70 times greater to incoming fire received

 4     from the Muslim side?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  That's calling for

 6     speculation on behalf of the witness.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's impossible.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No -- let's put it differently.  Witness answered

 9     that the Serbs were retaliating or responding less than what they were

10     shelled.

11             Could you read out the first paragraph, Mr. Gengo.  Could you

12     read aloud.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "There is evidence to the effect

14     that the Serbian side responds inadequately to the Muslim fire, sometimes

15     even 20 to 30 times more."

16             I don't know what this means.  I'm really not clear.  This is

17     absolutely impossible.  We didn't have the necessary ammunition.  We

18     could not do that.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to continue?

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   I'll wrap-up now, Mr. Witness.  I've shown to you today a series

22     of documents from -- which contain records of what was said by

23     Colonel Cvetkovic, by the SRK command, by UNPROFOR, by the president of

24     the republic about this extremely serious incident.  Not one of them

25     refers to an inspection of the 120-millimetre mortar guns at Mrkovici on

Page 29827

 1     the 6th of February, 1994.  Do you agree with that?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   And I further put it to you that this commission, insofar as it

 4     did exist -- correction.  I'll start again.

 5             I'll put it to you, Mr. Gengo, that this commission did not

 6     exist; and if it did, that it was essentially a sham.

 7        A.   I don't know if it was a sham or not.  I only know that a

 8     commission did arrive.  There were two vehicles.  I don't know on what --

 9     on whose orders.  The brigade command informed me that they would arrive.

10     I followed the orders and everything else was up to them.  It was their

11     concern, not mine.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  That's it for me.  No further questions.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gengo.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm very satisfied with the

16     fact that the Prosecution does more than they can.  They shouldn't do

17     more than they ought to.  The questions have been so confusing and so

18     misleading on the witness that I should be given quite a lot of time to

19     put my additional questions to the witness.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I asked it because of the -- only for the purpose of

21     scheduling matter.  We'll take a break then for half an hour and resume

22     at ten past.

23                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 29828

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Colonel, sir, earlier today on page 31,

 4     lines 16 through 21, you were asked whether you had controlled and how

 5     you made sure that the number of collateral casualties was reduced.  I'm

 6     going to read to you what you said during your interview with the

 7     Prosecutor.  I would like to call up 65 ter 24035, which is the

 8     transcript of that interview.  It is on page 3539.  We have it, yes,

 9     3539.  I apologise, page 11, 32 -- page 11, line 32.  You were asked and

10     I'm going to read in English.  It will be interpreted much better than

11     the other way around.

12             [In English] "Okay.  So if you didn't know what was around their

13     fire points, how could you be sure that you weren't firing in the area

14     where there might be civilian targets?"

15             [Interpretation] Your answer was as follows:

16             [In English] "I couldn't be sure of that.  I didn't know who was

17     there.  So, the one who is firing from the other side should have thought

18     of the civilians over there.  Because if it had been from my side, I

19     would done it in such a way."

20             [Interpretation] My question to you is this:  This assumption of

21     yours, is it based on the fact that on the other side and there were

22     officers who had been through the same schools as you?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  That's leading.

Page 29829

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well very well then.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you then tell us based on which did you assume that they

 4     would have done the same thing you would have done in terms of the

 5     protection of civilians?

 6        A.   I assume that they knew that when a shell hit shrapnel dispersed

 7     for about 50 metres around.  And if they did not secure the civilians,

 8     some of the civilians that found themselves in the area of fire may have

 9     been harmed.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have page 13 in the same

11     document.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   On page 18 of today's transcript, lines 9 and 10, you were asked

14     whether you effectively exercised control over the battalion and whether

15     you were sure that mortars were not fired without your approval.  And now

16     I'm going to remind you of your answer given to the Prosecutor during the

17     interview on line 10.  The question was as follows:

18             [In English] "Was anyone in your battalion ever detained for

19     firing a projectile into the city of Sarajevo?"

20             [Interpretation] Answer:

21             [In English] "In my time, during my time there was no such lack

22     of discipline."

23             [Interpretation] Question:

24             [In English] "No, my question was:  Was anyone in your battalion

25     ever detained for firing the projectile into the city of Sarajevo?"

Page 29830

 1             [Interpretation] Answer:

 2             [In English] [As read] "No.  There was offence of that kind

 3     during my time.  If I had been -- if it had been, then he would have been

 4     detained for sure."

 5             [Interpretation] Do you still stand by that position?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I just interrupt for a moment.  The transcript

 8     as far as the Prosecution is concerned at line 18 of page 13 that

 9     Mr. Karadzic is reading from where it says "There was offence of that

10     kind" it's our position that that inaccurately omits the word "no."  The

11     transcript should read:  "There was no offence of that kind."  I'm simply

12     saying that so that the record is clear.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And now I would like to ask you to tell us where was the forward

16     command post Butile in respect of the zone of responsibility of your

17     battalion?

18        A.   Butile?  It's on a completely different side, in the Rajlovac and

19     Ilidza sectors.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you about that visit.  Those who

21     visited you, were they the same people who were members of the

22     investigation commission?

23        A.   People visited me all the time.  I can't tell you how many times

24     a week, but they were always there.  Whenever an incident occurred, they

25     came to inspect and to see what had happened.

Page 29831

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So do you know that the investigation commission was

 2     set up after the 6th and do you make a distinction between --

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.  Once again, despite repeated instruction

 4     from the Trial Chamber, Dr. Karadzic is using leading questions in

 5     re-direct.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.  I really

 8     admit that my habits from cross-examination die hard.  I'll have to

 9     educate myself not to do that.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, let me ask you this:  Do you make a

12     distinction between an ad hoc inspection and a permanent investigation

13     commission?

14        A.   I don't make any distinction.  I didn't make any distinctions.

15     They came.  They were in the vehicles.  I don't know who they were.  I

16     don't know when the commission was set up -- when it was supposed to be

17     set up.  I really don't know.  Commissions were always there.  They came

18     frequently.  I didn't get involved in any of the conversations with them.

19        Q.   And can I now call up 65 ter 15575.  Now it has a different

20     number because it has been admitted into evidence.  Can we see it in

21     e-court, please.

22             You were asked, Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, about the tactics

23     applied by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and with the help of this

24     document Mr. Gaynor wanted to obtain a confirmation that the

25     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had offensive intentions and offensive

Page 29832

 1     activities.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 4, please.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please look at bullet point A where it says "tasks of

 5     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps."  Are these offensive or defensive measures?

 6        A.   Defensive.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could I please ask you to read the first sentence in

 8     the following paragraph.  Could you please read it out loud.

 9        A.   My vision is not that good.  Can you do it.

10        Q.   "By construct a grouping of the troops and with an appropriate

11     reinforcement with the reserve forces of the Main Staff of the VRS,

12     improve the operations, the tactical position, the Sarajevo sector."

13             Can you please tell us whether Zuc, Hum, and Mojmilo are areas

14     settled by Muslims or are these some other kind of features?

15        A.   Zuc was inhabited by Serbs.  They came under attack by Muslim

16     forces and then I would say that it was an elevation that was almost

17     empty.

18        Q.   In the following paragraph it says [indiscernible] the Muslim

19     forces and capture the Hranjen and Podhranjen features.  What are these?

20        A.   This is wasteland.  There was nobody there.  Those were points

21     held by the Army of Republika Srpska and they wanted to link-up those two

22     areas because the line went --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24             Have you finished your answer, Mr. Gengo?

25             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

Page 29833

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic didn't read out the sentence in full,

 2     the first sentence.  After that it continues to read like this, after

 3     saying, "Improve the operations tactical positions in the region of

 4     Sarajevo," the sentence goes on like this:

 5             "Penetrate to the left bank of Misoca river, liberate the

 6     villages of Zabrdje, Sokolje, Zuc, Hum, and Mojmilo."

 7             Then I'd like to ask you what does this liberation mean?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means to improve the tactical

11     position, to move one part of the line in order to conquer it, to take

12     that area, to improve one's defence position.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You told us just now that it means to take that

14     area?  So that's an offensive -- for the purpose of defence --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To improve one's positions.  This

16     is the improvement of one's positions, not taking a town but improving

17     one's positions to improve one's defence abilities.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So liberating what, Mr. Gengo?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One part of the line, one part of

20     the tactical position.  In -- and this was carried out in the sectors

21     from which we were threatened.  We had to liberate -- actually to -- we

22     had to prevent a situation where our population may have been threatened

23     from those --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  There is a lot of background noise in the

25     courtroom so the interpreter could not hear the last part of the

Page 29834

 1     witness's answer.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  What did you say?  Your population may have been

 3     threatened from where?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the elevations that were

 5     occupied by them, the population and the road were threatened.  From

 6     there and in order to improve that part of the position for our forces

 7     had to take those positions in order to prevent the threat to our

 8     population in Vogosca, and so on.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, so can you tell the Trial Chamber where the

13     Misoca river is?

14        A.   The Misoca river is in Ilijas.  That used to be a military

15     warehouse in the past and it stored technical fuel.

16        Q.   Thank you.  There is a reference here to the liberation of

17     Zabrdje which is described as a village.  Do you know who resided there?

18        A.   Serbs did.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Is that a village where the president of the

20     Assembly, Krajisnik, was born?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What about the other features, Sokolje, Zuc, Mojmilo, Orahovica,

23     Hranjen, Podhranjen?  Were those Muslim settlements or something else?

24        A.   There was nobody there.  It was a wasteland.  Podhranjen was not

25     settled.  It is a place in the direction of Gorazde.

Page 29835

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 5.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Please look at bullet point 4.  Usually it is a decision by the

 4     commander.  Let me read it to you:

 5             "I decided by engaging the main body of the corps in the decisive

 6     defence, prevent the link up of the enemy forces from the Muslim part of

 7     Sarajevo with the forces attacking along the valleys of the Neretva

 8     river, Zujevina [phoen] river and the Bosnia river along the

 9     following axis, Olovo, and so on, to stabilise the front line and fully

10     fortify the positions thus creating secure support points for the defence

11     of the Pretis, Orao, Famos industrial facilities and the TRZ and safely

12     hold the MOS in Sarajevo encircled."

13             Can you tell the Chamber how you understand this decision?  Is

14     this a decision for defensive or offensive activities?

15        A.   Defensive because it was not aimed at conquering Sarajevo but

16     preserving what we had.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now go to page 7.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Have a look at the first sentence.  I'll read it out.  It says:

21             "The focus of the attack should be in the Grbavica sector.  The

22     Zeljeznica stadium and Sanac [phoen]."

23             It says carry out fortification work and so on and so forth.  Is

24     this defensive or offensive action?

25        A.   Defensive.

Page 29836

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let's see 5.2 now, it's been read out to you:

 2             "The 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade defends its positions in the

 3     zone of responsibility through a persistent and decisive defence, and in

 4     co-operation with the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and the Vogosca

 5     Tactical Group in active combat, smash enemy forces in the region of

 6     Colina Kapa-Ophodza-Orlovac and Grdonj and improve the tactical position

 7     of the brigade.  Put the Muslim forces under control in the urban part of

 8     Sarajevo while constructing heavy fortification and setting up the

 9     full-on obstructions in front of the forward line of defence using the

10     system of fire to prevent the enemy penetration into the defence zone."

11             Is this offensive or defensive action with fortifications and

12     with tactical improvements?

13        A.   This is defensive measure taken to improve the tactical position

14     of our units in the area of defence.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell the Chamber what these features are

16     where your brigade is supposed to rout the enemy, Colina Kapa, Orlovac,

17     and Grdonj?

18        A.   Well, these were deserted areas, hills.  There was no one there.

19     There were hills that posed a threat to our positions, to our roads.  So

20     there were no features of any significance so there -- there's footage of

21     the area and this can be seen in the footage, I think.

22             JUDGE KWON:  When asked by Mr. Gaynor represented -- attorney

23     from the Prosecution you said you didn't participate in this and you

24     didn't know.  Now how do you know that this was defensive?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know these positions.  I

Page 29837

 1     observed these things when they took place, but my unit did not take part

 2     in the events, in the operations.  But I was aware of the situation.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  My apology.  You didn't say you didn't know.  I'm

 4     reading that transcript again.  Very well.

 5             Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   But, sir, is it clear, it says improve the tactical positions and

 9     carry out fortification work.  Someone with offensive operations, does

10     such a person engage in improving fortifications or is this defensive?

11        A.   Well, if you want to mount a defence you carry out fortification

12     work.  If you want to carry out an attack then you break through and try

13     to conquer areas.  We never received such an order to go on Sarajevo.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did we consider Sedrenik, Stari Grad, Bascarsija

15     Serbian parts of Sarajevo?

16        A.   No, there were not many of our inhabitants down there.  Mostly

17     there were Muslims in Bascarsija, Sedrenik, and in other parts.  There

18     were some of our people who lived down there from Vucije Luke [phoen].

19     They had houses in Sedrenik.  So that was their area, in fact.

20     Ninety-nine per cent of the area was inhabited by their people.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And when it says liberate Serbian parts of town, does

22     this refer to the core part of the town, the inner town in which the

23     inhabitants are mostly Muslims?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Sir, I'd like to conclude with this document --

Page 29838

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.  That was leading, though.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   The SRK and your brigade, where were they in contact with the

 5     enemy and were there two types of front lines?

 6        A.   Yes.  They were in contact with them in the area of Gorazde

 7     towards the 81st Division and also in the direction of Sarajevo where

 8     there was the 105th and the 110th Brigades, I think, facing us, also in

 9     the outer ring in the Nisici area they were in contact with the 3rd Corps

10     and the 2nd Tuzla Corps.  We were in contact with them there.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at page 6 very

13     briefly, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   At the top it says regroup the forces of the corps and carry out

16     with the Drina Corps an action, take control of the Zvijezda mountain,

17     liberate the route in Srednje Olovo, route the enemy in the Cemerska

18     mountain sector, and so on and so forth.  Could you tell us where these

19     places are located?  Was there a difference when it comes to tactics of

20     the SRK deployed against the external ring and deployed against the

21     internal ring?

22        A.   This position is to the north above Ilijas and towards the Nisici

23     plateau.  That's where the road led to Sokolac.  That part was defended

24     so that the 1st Corps units and the 2nd and 3rd Corps units didn't link

25     up so that the inhabitants in Ilijas, Hadzici, Ilidza, Vogosca, and

Page 29839

 1     Rajlovac would remain encircled.  So we had to defend this position so

 2     that the Muslim forces would not link up and they wouldn't cut off part

 3     of the town inhabited by Serbs.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at page 14,

 6     please, 6, item 5.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'll read out the sentence:

 9             "Logistic support of prisoners of war is to be provided in

10     accordance with the Geneva Conventions."

11             Were you aware of the fact that this was the corps commander's

12     position?

13        A.   Yes, I was.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Well, I'm just noticing another couple of leading

16     questions are infecting the re-direct again.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I took it that -- just the witness confirmed that

18     it's written there.  Let us continue.  Let's conclude.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we have a look at

20     P5969 very briefly, page 58.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Page 58 -- on page 58 of today's transcript you were shown this

23     document and I would like to ask you about something that concerns

24     Mrkovici.  Does it say that fire was opened from Mrkovici or that fire

25     was opened by them on Mrkovici?  Let's have a look at it at the

Page 29840

 1     beginning.

 2             "The enemy:

 3             "Infantry and sniper fire attacks in the sector of Hresa,

 4     Faletici, Mrkovici, Azici, Nedzarici," et cetera.

 5             This is the enemy taking action, and number 2, it says:

 6             "Our forces:

 7             "Fire was opened in response on observed enemy targets in the

 8     area of the Vogosca Tactical Group, 120-millimetre mortar and

 9     40-millimetre PAT anti-aircraft gun were used."

10             So does it say that fire was opened from Mrkovici or that that

11     was not the case?  Where did you retaliate from?

12        A.   120-millimetre?  No, I didn't have any such thing.  From

13     Mrkovici, I can't really see where was opened from.  If fire was opened

14     on Hresa, on Mrkovici, well, then I retaliated.  But as for Vogosca, if

15     it was Vogosca, then they retaliated probably because I couldn't do

16     anything in Vogosca with a 120-millimetre mortar and a 40-millimetre PAT.

17     I didn't have any such weapons.

18        Q.   Fire was opened from infantry and artillery from Mrkovici?

19        A.   Sometimes they fired from tanks from the Ciglane area.

20        Q.   Sir, today -- on the 5th of February, what did they use to fire

21     on Mrkovici and was there any retaliation, any response from Mrkovici?

22        A.   No, not on the 5th of February.

23        Q.   Thank you.  When you asked about measures to reduce collateral

24     casualties, when using mortars, heavy-calibre weapons, did you have the

25     duty of observing fire that was opened?

Page 29841

 1        A.   If you could see where the hits landed.

 2        Q.   And now for my last question.  After everything you heard, given

 3     all the questions put to you and the documents you have seen, could you

 4     tell us whether the Army of Republika Srpska fired a shell on Markale on

 5     the 5th of February, 1994, from the area under your control?

 6        A.   I can claim with full responsibility that the VRS did not fire a

 7     shell on the Markale Market.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 9                           Questioned by the Court:

10             JUDGE KWON:  Well, this is not very important, but I'll put to

11     you, Mr. Gengo -- shall we upload the Exhibit P5968, 65 ter 15575,

12     English page 8.  I remember B/C/S page was 6, if my memory was correct.

13     The middle of big paragraph it reads like this:

14             "And by using all available means exert strong pressure on the

15     Muslim forces in Sarajevo and liberate Debelo Brdo, Mojmilo, Colina Kapa,

16     Grdonj, Hum, Golo Brdo, Zuc, Vis, Mijatovica, Kosa, Sokolje and

17     Stupsko Brdo and penetrate deep into the region of Brekin [phoen] Potok

18     and Dobrinja ...," and then it reads like this:

19             " ...  creating thus favourable conditions for the wider-scale

20     offensive activities by the forces of the corps and the reinforcement."

21             So my question for you, Mr. Gengo, is:  What does this

22     wider-scale offensive activities mean?

23        A.   It means wider activities on the positions.

24             JUDGE KWON:  What activities?

25        A.   Combat activities, improving the tactical position.  In order to

Page 29842

 1     move a line to fortify you have to get the enemy to move from a hill in

 2     order to take it, in order to have a dominant position.  So you had to do

 3     this in order to dominate given part of town because when Muslim forces

 4     attacked it was necessary to be able to mount a defence and prevent the

 5     external ring from being penetrated.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  However, does General Galic not say "offensive

 7     activities"?

 8        A.   Could I have a look at that document?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I can't find the location in the B/C/S --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have a hard copy.  It's the

11     first paragraph in the B/C/S version and we do have a hard copy.

12             JUDGE KWON:  "...  creating thus favourable conditions for the

13     wider-scale offensive activities ..."

14             Did you find it?

15        A.   Yes.  I don't know what General Galic had in mind, but I know

16     what happened.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

18             Unless --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just put another question

20     to the witness on the basis of your question?

21             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it's necessary.  The witness answered

22     to the far --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be useful for the Chamber.

24     Perhaps you could ask the witness whether any of these hills were taken

25     by the Serbian army?

Page 29843

 1             JUDGE KWON:  It's not necessary, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             Unless my colleagues have questions for you, Mr. Gengo, that

 3     concludes were you evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to

 4     thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to

 5     go.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And who is the next witness, Mr. Robinson?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Stojan Dzino.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             Let's bring in the next witness.

11             While we are waiting, Mr. Robinson, with respect to the accused's

12     motion for extension of word limit for request for review of Registrar's

13     decision on indigence, where the Defence requests an extension from 3.000

14     to 5.000 words to challenge the Registry's decision of

15     11th of October, 2012, on Mr. Karadzic's indigency, we will hereby grant

16     this request and order that his request for review of the Registry's

17     decision of 11th of October not exceed 5.000 words.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  STOJAN DZINO

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Take a seat and make yourself

Page 29844

 1     comfortable.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Dzino.

 6        A.   Good day.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D1605 in the e-court

 8     system, please.  6085, correction.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Dzino, while we're waiting for that to appear, what rank did

11     you have when you left the army?

12        A.   I had the rank of lieutenant.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you give the Defence team a statement?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I have to remind you and remind myself that we should speak

16     slowly and pause between question and answer because the interpreters

17     might leave something important out, not through any fault of their own

18     but because of us.  Is this a statement that you gave, the one on the

19     screen in front of you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you sign the statement?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   Does this statement accurately reflect the questions -- the

24     answers you provided to the questions put to you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29845

 1        Q.   Lieutenant, if I were to put the same questions to you today,

 2     would the substance of your answers be the same?

 3        A.   Absolutely.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

 5     tender this statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  No objection to the statement.

 8             There's no associated exhibits I understand.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll give the number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2387, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dzino, as you noted, your evidence in chief was

13     admitted in the form of writing, i.e., your statement, in lieu of your

14     oral testimony.  Now you'll be further cross-examined by the Prosecution.

15     You understand that?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I be allowed to read out a

17     brief summary, just one page?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes, I forgot that.  Yes, please proceed.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll read it out in

20     English.

21             [In English] Stojan Dzino did his military service as a soldier

22     in 1992.  Between March and May 1992, he was on guard duty in the village

23     of Bojnik, Rajlovac.  In December 1992, he was a battalion commander in

24     the vicinity of Sarajevo.  At the beginning of 1994, when the

25     3rd Sarajevo Brigade was established he was appointed assistant commander

Page 29846

 1     for morale in the 4th Infantry Battalion.

 2             As early as in 1991, Stojan Dzino already heard of the arming of

 3     Muslims and the membership of many to the Patriotic League and the

 4     Green Berets.  In the summer and autumn 1991 it was noted that the SDA

 5     leaders frequently visited Ahatovici.  The situation at that time was

 6     already tense.  In March 1992, after the murder of a Serbian wedding

 7     guest in Bascarsija night guards started begin organised in the different

 8     settlements by the local population.  These guards were operational until

 9     the 29th of May, 1992.

10             By initiative of some Serbs, meetings were held in the local

11     community in the period from March to May 1992 to discuss the possibility

12     of restoring trust and peace in the settlements.  The last meeting took

13     place at the end of May 1992, when Hasan Nujkic and two other men all

14     dressed in camouflage uniforms and wearing green berets called on all the

15     Muslims to leave the gathering, and they proceeded to do so.  After this

16     last failed attempts to peaceful -- to a peaceful solution, the first

17     Muslim offensive was launched on the 29th of May, 1992, against Krstac

18     locality.  Stojan Dzino and approximately ten men set out to Krstac where

19     they engaged the Muslims who retreated in the direction of Gornje Mioce

20     and his men took control of the ridge and held it until the end of

21     clashes.

22             On June the 2nd, 1992, another confrontation took place in which

23     several Muslims were captured and others killed.  Stojan Dzino knew every

24     family in the area and he only recognised a negligible number of the

25     captured and killed Muslims.  All the wounded captured Muslims were given

Page 29847

 1     first aid and there was no maltreatment.  In the zone of combat

 2     operations in which he was, there were no dishonourable activities,

 3     rapes, slaughters, maltreatment, et cetera.

 4             With regards to the Butile barracks, the area in front of the

 5     barracks was laid with mines towards the Serbian village of Osijek,

 6     whereas towards Pasici and Bojnik there were no mines but a fence, but

 7     the wire was broken in places so that there were various paths.  Those

 8     villages are Muslim.

 9             Stojan Dzino has knowledge that the 1st Corps of the Army of BH

10     was under control of the Muslim authorities in the period from April 1992

11     to December 1995.  The 1st Corps held positions in civilian zones.  His

12     unit and the other units towards the city of Sarajevo as well as on the

13     outer ring had only defence tasks.  The complete zone was in an

14     unfavourable position in relation to the enemy side.  The distance

15     between the lines of separation ranged between 9 metres and to the

16     closest -- at the closest point and 100 metres at the greatest distance.

17     During all four years of the war, there were negligible movements of the

18     line to his unit's detriment.

19             Fire was never opened in the depth of territory against civilian

20     facilities.  Neither he nor his unit, nor lower or superior commands,

21     ever harboured any intention to cause civilian casualties or terrorise

22     civilians in the area and under Muslim control, nor exert

23     psychological -- or exert psychological influence on them.  His unit

24     never received any oral or written order from higher command or civilian

25     authorities to carry out attacks against civilians or means of public

Page 29848

 1     transportation in the territory under Muslim control, nor did he ever

 2     issue such order.

 3             In the zone of responsibility of his brigade and as far as he is

 4     aware, beyond it there were no paramilitary units.  All independent units

 5     were included in the command and control of the respective brigades.

 6     There were very few members of his unit who were professional servicemen,

 7     and those who were had been born in the area.  The rest were mostly local

 8     men and the commanding officers were mostly from the reserve.  His unit

 9     hardly volunteered into its ranks.  Stojan Dzino categorically states

10     that in four years of warfare he never saw a professional sniper in his

11     unit or other units of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

12             On the contrary, they had intelligence that snipers in the unit

13     of 1st Corps of BH army were targeting civilians in the part of the town

14     under the control of Serbian authorities as well as those in the town

15     under Muslim control.  Muslim forces also cut off water-supply to his

16     unit's zone of responsibility and re-supplied their units using

17     humanitarian aid convoys.  Muslim forces would also frequently violate

18     cease-fire agreements.  His unit co-operated extremely well with the

19     municipal civilian authorities.  In Rajlovac there were no persecution

20     policy based on religious or ethnic ground.

21             [Interpretation] At this point in time I don't have any questions

22     for the Lieutenant and I hand him over to the other side.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Yes, I -- as I informed you, you'll be examined -- cross-examined

25     by Mr. Gaynor.

Page 29849

 1             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Dzino.  I'm here to ask you a few questions

 5     on behalf of the Prosecution.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   First of all, in 1990 you were a resident in the municipality of

 8     Novi Grad; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Specifically Mihaljevici?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   Were you a member of the Serb Democratic Party?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you stand for election -- in elections taken in 1990?

15        A.   No, no.

16        Q.   You were not a candidate for the Serb Democratic Party in any

17     elections in 1990?

18        A.   No, no.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call-up, please, 65 ter number 24029.  This

20     document does not have an English translation at present, Mr. President.

21     We'll see in a moment that it is fairly self-explanatory.  We will get an

22     English translation uploaded as soon as we can.  I think if you go

23     halfway down or it can stop there.

24        Q.   We can see that this is a list of candidates for the

25     Municipal Assembly of Novi Grad in Sarajevo.  Do you agree with that?

Page 29850

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Under the second list of candidates we see a list of candidates

 3     for the Serb Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina; do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's focus in on the name which is number 78 on the

 6     right-hand side.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could zoom in on that, please, Mr. Registrar.

 8        Q.   Number 78 lists Dzino Stojan, a Serb from Mihaljevici; do you see

 9     that?

10        A.   This is not correct.  Listen, this is a list.  As a matter of

11     fact, I would like to know the date when this list was compiled or,

12     rather, when this was published in a newspaper.  This must be a newspaper

13     or a magazine, is it not?

14        Q.   The date at the top of the page is the 16th of November, 1990.

15        A.   Listen, in order for the Serbian Democratic Party to run in

16     Novi Grad municipality, the Serbian Democratic Party -- not us on the

17     list.  A hundred people had to be put forth in Novi Grad municipality,

18     present their IDs, and say that they are members because it would give

19     the Serbian Democratic Party the right to run in the elections.  This is

20     not a list of candidates.  This is a list of the 100 people who put their

21     names towards helping the Serbian Democratic Party to run in the

22     elections and to put forth some other candidates on its behalf.  So this

23     is not the list of the candidates that were running in the election.

24        Q.   You, nevertheless, accept that that is your name which appears on

25     a list which is described as a list of candidates for the SDS?

Page 29851

 1        A.   Listen, I was not on the list of candidates running for MPs in

 2     Novi Grad municipality.  It doesn't make sense for a list of future MPs

 3     to contain the names of a hundred candidates.  What I'm saying here, what

 4     I'm telling you, is the truth and it is correct.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.  We'll

 6     upload an English translation as soon as we can.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Now I'd like --

10             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P5975, Your Honours.

13             MR. GAYNOR:

14        Q.   I'd like to turn to the origins of the Serb municipality of

15     Rajlovac.  First, before we get there, as a member of the SDS you did

16     share the views of the SDS, did you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Those views included defended the interests of the Serbian

19     people?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Defending the territories of the Serbian people?

22        A.   Well, what period of time are you referring to?

23        Q.   Well, I'm referring to the period of time from 1990 all the way

24     up until 1995 for the purpose of that question.

25        A.   Until the combat activities started, we did not need to defend

Page 29852

 1     the territory of the Serbian people.  It was only when we came under

 2     threat that we started defending the Serbian territory.  Before that,

 3     Rajlovac municipality, where I resided was used by the larger

 4     municipality Novi Grad, Sarajevo.  In Rajlovac municipality, only

 5     economic reasons were in place for Rajlovac municipality to separate from

 6     Novi Grad Sarajevo municipality.  Nobody thought of war at that time.  In

 7     Rajlovac municipality there were a lot of large companies that had large

 8     profits.  For example, I can tell you the names of all of them, but let

 9     me give you just a few of them.  The --

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, Mr. Witness, can I suggest --

11        A.   Did you not understand me?

12        Q.   I understand you, Mr. Witness.  Can I ask you to focus on the

13     questions which are put to you, and subject to a direction from the

14     Trial Chamber try and keep your answers a little shorter and more

15     focused.  Is that okay?

16        A.   Well, I didn't understand you then.

17        Q.   Do you accept that preparations for the establishment of the Serb

18     municipality of Rajlovac started in around October 1991?

19        A.   I really don't know when that happened.  I'm not sure of the

20     time.

21        Q.   Approximately what date would you say that the Serbian

22     municipality of Rajlovac was established?

23        A.   I really don't know.

24        Q.   The name of the municipality was the Serbian municipality of

25     Rajlovac, wasn't it?

Page 29853

 1        A.   I don't know, I really don't.

 2        Q.   Your evidence is that you do not know what the formal name of

 3     the -- that the formal name of Rajlovac of the municipal entity that was

 4     created was the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac.  Is it your evidence

 5     that you don't know that?

 6        A.   I wasn't -- I don't have a clue.  I don't know whether the prefix

 7     "Srpska" preceded the name.  I was not interested in that.  It was

 8     Rajlovac municipality.  It is possible.  Now it has just occurred to me.

 9     There was a stamp, but I don't know whether that was the full title

10     featured on that stamp.  But if you say so, then I suppose you're right.

11        Q.   It's not me testifying, sir.  At paragraph 68 of your statement,

12     which is -- appears on page 18 you state:

13             "In the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac which is at the same

14     time the zone of responsibility of my brigade, there was no persecution

15     policy on religious or ethnic grounds."

16             You can consult the relevant page of your statement.  My question

17     to you is:  Why was it called the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac?

18        A.   I apologise, I apologise.  What paragraph are you referring me

19     to?

20        Q.   Sixty-eight.

21        A.   Prosecutor, sir, maybe we are talking at cross-purposes here.

22     When Rajlovac municipality was founded, I don't know whether it had the

23     prefix "Serbian" in its name.  Later on it became commonplace.  That's

24     why I used it.  The way I understood your question was whether the prefix

25     "Srpski" was used from the very outset, from the moment when Rajlovac

Page 29854

 1     municipality was established.  Later on, especially during the conflict,

 2     it became a common practice to call it the Serbian municipality of

 3     Rajlovac.

 4        Q.   And why was it called the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac?

 5        A.   Well, I haven't a clue.  I suppose because Serbs resided in that

 6     municipality.

 7        Q.   Now, in your paragraph at -- statement at paragraph 6 you give

 8     some figures from the 1991 census, and you say that there were 1.066

 9     Muslims living in the local commune of Dobrosevici.  That's paragraphs 5

10     and 6.  Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Of those 1066 Muslims, approximately how many were in Ahatovici

13     would you say?

14        A.   A majority, perhaps a half, I don't know, or maybe even more than

15     half.

16        Q.   Now, going back to paragraphs 68, you refer to a number of

17     non-Serb people living in the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac.  And

18     before we get there, is it true that the village of Ahatovici was

19     encompassed within the territory of the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In paragraph 68 you note the existence of three Croatian families

22     and three individuals who were Muslims and you name those three

23     individuals in paragraph 68.  Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, my question to you is:  What happened to the 1.066 Muslims

Page 29855

 1     who lived in the Dobrosevici area before the war?  Why were there only

 2     three Muslims in the municipality -- Serbian municipality of Rajlovac by

 3     the end of the war?

 4        A.   No, what I was talking about is not the Serbian municipality of

 5     Rajlovac, but Dobrosevici local commune.  Second of all, after the

 6     4th of June, 1992, after fighting in Ahatovici, the Muslim population

 7     surrendered to the Serbian military and the civilian population expressed

 8     a wish to leave and go to Sarajevo and they left.  And those were not

 9     only three Croatian families, not the only three Croatian families.

10     Actually, there were a woman and her parents.  Their family name was

11     Pasic.  And those were not just the Rebo, Martinovic, Bosnjak families,

12     the names applied to several families and I don't know their

13     exact numbers.  Almost all of them from those Croatian families stayed.

14     Younger people left because they were probably afraid they would be

15     recruited to the Army of Republika Srpska.  Nobody actually touched them.

16     They left of their own free will.  As for the Pasic family, that covers

17     several families who resided in some dozen houses.  They left of their

18     own free will because of some problems.  They resided above the Butile

19     barracks.  Fire was opened from their houses at the barracks.  I don't

20     know how they were moved into some dozen weekend cottages, but I know

21     that they left the area of their own free will and that they left in the

22     direction of Kiseljak.  On several occasions I popped over and visited

23     them because they resided close to where I lived.  Our relations were

24     good.  I asked them if they needed anything.  They lived there and they

25     enjoyed all the rights like any other citizen.  They couldn't go to their

Page 29856

 1     own houses.  That was the only exception.  They had to report to somebody

 2     from the military police --

 3        Q.   Mr. Dzino --

 4        A.   -- I don't know who that was --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A correction in the transcript.

 6     Let us clarify whether fire was opened from the barracks at those houses

 7     or whether it was the other way around; i.e., whether fire was opened

 8     from those houses at the barracks.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  That can be corrected in re-direct I would suggest.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very much so.  Please continue.

11             But Mr. --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, the witness said that fire was

13     opened from the houses.  I have an objection to the transcript.  Why

14     don't you clarify with the witness now and ask him what he actually said?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Transcription or transcript can be corrected later

16     on by -- if there's a proper request.  I couldn't find the passage here

17     so that's why I suggested continuing with the evidence.  I find the flow

18     of evidence very important.

19             Mr. Dzino, because what you are saying has to be interpreted in

20     two languages, please speak slowly.  Do you understand that, sir?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 15, if I may be of assistance.

23     On line 15 the witness's words were misrecorded.  That's on page 104.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be checked against the

25     recording by the CLSS.  Thank you.

Page 29857

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Witness, in your -- one of your answers you referred to the

 3     Muslim civilians from Ahatovici surrendering to Serb forces.  Can we

 4     agree that that was in late May 1992?

 5        A.   I know the exact date.

 6        Q.   What is the exact date?

 7        A.   It started on the 31st of May and lasted until the 2nd of June.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Their Honours have received evidence, the

 9     citations are P2314, paragraph 46; and P2310, paragraphs 31 to 33.  The

10     Judges have received evidence that hundreds of Muslim women, children,

11     and men from Ahatovici and its surrounding villages were detained in

12     several locations in Rajlovac following the take-over of Ahatovici by

13     Serb forces.  Do you know anything about that?

14        A.   I know that they were detained, but I don't know where nor how.

15     Not only were they detained, I would like you to show me a map.  When we

16     are talking about Ahatovici, there's only the Ahatovici local commune

17     which was inhabited by Muslims.  The extremists who wanted to engage in

18     fighting were in Ahatovici.  The lower-lying areas, I'm speaking off the

19     top of my head, it would be best to see the map then you would understand

20     what I'm talking about.  I don't know how things transpired.  In any

21     case, those people did not engage in major fighting.  They surrendered.

22     And I know for a fact that some of the men, for example, the

23     Gacanovici [phoen] family asked their neighbours to drive them to some --

24     Revo [phoen].  They never arrived in Rajlovica.  As for the civilians

25     from Ahatovici, more specifically the villages in Ahatovici which

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 1     composed one-third of the local commune, they were indeed taken to

 2     Rajlovac.

 3        Q.   And are you aware that many were treated to beatings?  They were

 4     kept in inhumane conditions.  Several were beaten to death according to

 5     the evidence the Trial Chamber has received.  Have you heard anything

 6     about that?

 7        A.   I'm sorry that that happened.  I really was not in Rajlovac at

 8     the time, nor do I know what happened there, and if what you're saying

 9     indeed did happen I'm very sorry.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, just one or two questions.  We need to

11     rise at 2.30.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Certainly.  We can stop there.  Thank you,

13     Mr. President.  It's -- this is an appropriate place to stop as far as my

14     planning is concerned.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             We'll rise today and we'll continue tomorrow at 9.00.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.28 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

19                           November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.