Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29859

 1                           Wednesday, 7 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, everyone

 9     in the courtroom.  May I introduce Ms. Sarah Coquillaud who has been

10     assisting my team.  She's now on her second internship with us, having in

11     the interim gone to the ICC, but having decided it was better to come

12     back and work with us.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Welcome back.

14             Good morning, Mr. Dzino.

15             Yes, Mr. Gaynor, good morning to you.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Good morning, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

18                           WITNESS:  STOJAN DZINO [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor: [Continued]

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dzino.  Mr. Dzino, the first question is --

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Concerns who took your statement.  Could you identify the members

24     of the Defence team who took your statement?

25        A.   I can't remember the name.  Danko, Danko is the name, or rather,

Page 29860

 1     it's last name.  I can't remember Kostovic, something like that.

 2        Q.   Anybody else?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   All right.  In your statement at paragraph 3 you said that you

 5     were a guard in the village of Bojnik in Rajlovac municipality from the

 6     1st of March until the end of -- the 29th of May, 1992.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Before we proceed.

 8             Mr. Dzino, do you have your statement with you now?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to have one in hard copy, Mr. Dzino?

11     Or you have it in your bag?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes -- no, I forgot.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll print it out for you.  Yes, it's on the

14     monitor, if you could take a look there.

15             Yes, please continue, Mr. Gaynor.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   My question is:  Did the guard in the village of Bojnik operate

18     under the authority of the Crisis Staff?

19        A.   I apologise, as I was a little bit distracted here.  Could you

20     tell me which period you are referring to.  I also don't have the

21     statement before me.

22        Q.   It's in paragraph 3 in front of you.  You said that from the

23     1st of March until the 29th of May, 1992, you acted as a guard in the

24     village of Bojnik.

25        A.   And the question?

Page 29861

 1        Q.   Did the guard in the village of Bojnik operate under the

 2     authority of the Crisis Staff?

 3        A.   I don't know.  Perhaps I should go into detail.  From the

 4     2nd of March barricades were set up in Sarajevo, and as of that time

 5     there was a lot of tension and all the inhabitants in our commune were

 6     nervous, Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.  So from the time the barricades

 7     were set up the Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims went on guard duty,

 8     everyone did.  There wasn't a unit of -- the unit wasn't armed.  They had

 9     perhaps hunting rifles and so on and so forth, but the guards were set up

10     in front of people's houses.  No one obstructed anyone else.  There were

11     no attacks or provocations or anything of that kind.  So that's how it

12     was in the beginning.  Later in May --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dzino, if you could concentrate on answering the

14     question.  The question was whether the guard operated under the

15     authority of the Crisis Staff.  If you didn't know, that's sufficient.

16     Do you understand that, sir?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent.  So in March and April I

18     wasn't aware of being under anyone's orders.

19             MR. GAYNOR:

20        Q.   Now, you say that you were securing the village as platoon

21     commander.  Is it correct that you were the Rajlovac platoon commander?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct, but I became the platoon commander on the

23     26th of May, 1992.  Up until that point in time we didn't have an

24     established unit with its commander.

25        Q.   Okay.  So you're saying that before the 26th of May, 1992, there

Page 29862

 1     was no Rajlovac platoon commander; is that right?

 2        A.   No, not in Rajlovac.  Are you asking me?  I have no idea about

 3     what happened in Rajlovac, but -- in my local commune.  But we're talking

 4     about Mihaljevici, Bojnik, part of the local commune.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I call up, please, P2329.

 6        Q.   The document that's coming up is a little hard to read, we can

 7     see, but it appears to be dated the 9th of the 4th, 1992.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, I'll have the English translation

 9     amended because it does appear to say the 9th of the 4th rather than the

10     1st of April, 1992.

11        Q.   Now, this appears, does it not, to be an order of the

12     Crisis Staff of the Rajlovac municipality, Mr. Dzino?  Can you confirm

13     that that is an order of the Crisis Staff of the Rajlovac municipality?

14        A.   Here it says it's an order, but I can tell you that we did not

15     abide by this.  It was on the 26th of March -- 26th of May, 1992.  You

16     have my diary where it says when the platoon was formed and when I became

17     its commander.  So I didn't receive an order, a written order, of any

18     kind.  Things proceeded a little more slowly in our case, and as you can

19     see it was only one month later, over one month later, that we

20     established a unit.

21        Q.   But do you agree that according to point 1 of this order, the

22     active observation of the entire territory of Rajlovac municipality is

23     ordered?

24        A.   That's what it says.

25        Q.   And it orders platoon commanders and Crisis Staffs are to be

Page 29863

 1     informed on everything noticed?

 2        A.   I don't know whether you understand what I'm saying.  It was on

 3     the 26th of May.  We said that the date here is the 9th of April.  If

 4     that is the case, 21, 26, that's 47 days later that I became the platoon

 5     commander.  Is that clear to you?  And as proof, I have my diary that you

 6     also have at your disposal, so please feel free to read it.

 7        Q.   All right.  But this document does fall within the period during

 8     which you were performing guard duties in the village of Bojnik, doesn't

 9     it?

10        A.   I haven't received any interpretation.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

13        Q.   This document, this order from the Rajlovac municipality

14     Crisis Staff, dated the 9th of April, 1992, does fall within the period

15     between the 1st of March and the end of May 1992 when you were performing

16     guard duties.

17        A.   Well, yes, but are you asking me whether I was the platoon

18     commander or not?  I don't know what your question is.  Could you repeat

19     your question.  Naturally this is an order, but I was the platoon

20     commander from the 26th of May, 1992.  So this order does not concern me.

21     I'm only concerned as of the 26th of May, 1992.

22        Q.   And your platoon did act in co-operation with the Crisis Staff,

23     didn't it?

24        A.   It started acting from the 26th of May.  Up until that time - I

25     don't know whether you understand what I'm saying - but up until that

Page 29864

 1     point in time all we had were village guards that were poorly organised.

 2     They would all stand guard in front of their houses at night, whereas

 3     during the day they would till the land.  We lived in a village and we

 4     tilled the land, we worked.  No one launched any attacks during the day.

 5     There were no provocations of any kind.  Provocations were carried out at

 6     night.  Some would open fire in one location.  It was only on the

 7     26th of May, 1992, that a platoon was established and I was appointed as

 8     commander of the platoon by the soldiers, the soldiers who were with me.

 9     And if we're dealing with the platoon you can ask me about that, but up

10     until that point in time I wasn't in command of anything.

11        Q.   I want to move now to the establishment of the municipality of

12     Rajlovac.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, P2315.

14        Q.   Now, as you can see, this is taken from the Official Gazette of

15     the Republika Srpska of 24th February 1993 and it is reproducing a decree

16     of the 15th of May, 1992, issued by the president of the Presidency,

17     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  Do you see that?

18        A.   This decree, is that it?

19        Q.   Yes, it's the --

20        A.   It's not very legible -- now it's fine.

21        Q.   If we move a little down we see the law on the establishment of

22     Rajlovac municipality with headquarters in Rajlovac.  As you can see at

23     the end of that, that that was issued.  If we go to the next page in

24     English, it was issued by the president of the Assembly of the Serbian

25     people, Momcilo Krajisnik, on the 11th of May, 1992.  And you see that

Page 29865

 1     portion of the document, Mr. Dzino?

 2        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Now, in paragraph 5 of your statement, if we can return to the

 4     first page in English, please, in paragraph 5 of your statement you say

 5     that the local commune of Dobrosevici comprised the villages of Bojnik,

 6     Mihaljevici, Dobrosevici, and Ahatovici; isn't that right?

 7        A.   Well -- and the question is?

 8        Q.   Now, if you look at Article 2 of the law, it identifies the

 9     territorial extent of Sarajevo Rajlovac municipality and it encompasses

10     the following populated areas, including Bojnik, Dobrosevici, Ahatovici,

11     and it goes on to list a number of other settlements in that area.  You

12     see that?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   So is it correct to say that the local commune of Dobrosevici was

15     incorporated within the municipality of Rajlovac?

16        A.   Absolutely.

17        Q.   And that includes the 1.066 Muslims and 200 Croats who were

18     living there according to the 1991 census?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, do you know if they were ever consulted about the

21     incorporation of their commune into the municipality of Rajlovac?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Now, yesterday in your evidence you confirmed that the surrender

24     of Muslim civilians from Ahatovici to Serb forces was on the

25     2nd of June, 1992, and they were taken away.  That was at pages 2857 and

Page 29866

 1     2 -- sorry, excuse me.  That was at pages 29857 and 29858.  Now, do you

 2     know the mosque at Ahatovici?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   It was built in about 1969; is that right?

 5        A.   I don't know when, but I know that there was a mosque.  I don't

 6     know the year in which it was built, but I know that there was a mosque.

 7        Q.   And do you know what happened to it in 1992?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What happened?

10        A.   Well, if you want me to describe the case to you ...

11        Q.   Well, it was blown up, wasn't it?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

13        Q.   Now, the Trial Chamber's received evidence that it was destroyed

14     sometime after the Serb take-over of Ahatovici which you've placed at the

15     2nd of June, 1992, and before the 6th of June, 1992.  Do you have any

16     reason to dispute that?

17        A.   Well, I don't know all the details about the mosque being blown

18     up, but I watched this.  It was on the 4th when I read through my

19     diary -- in fact, I haven't noted anything here.  But I reminded myself

20     by reading through Ramiz Mujkic's statement, a neighbour of mine who was

21     here before me.  I reminded myself of the date on which this occurred.

22     It was on the 4th of June and at the time Ahatovici had not been taken.

23     Because on the 4th of June, Serbian forces had taken control of Ahatovici

24     for good, so that was in the course of combing the field.  It was a

25     terrible explosion.  I saw it from a distance of 1 kilometre.  If you

Page 29867

 1   want me to tell you anything else about this case, please tell me to do so.

 2        Q.   Yes, who -- it was blown up by the Serb forces, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Well, I wouldn't say that they blew it up because I don't know

 4     the details, but rumour had it that there were some ammunition in the

 5     mosque, some explosives, or that it had been hit by a heavy-calibre

 6     weapon and it exploded, it was blown up, it was like an atom bomb.  There

 7     was a lot of smoke.  The mosque is in a valley.  I was at an elevation

 8     1 kilometre away, so the scene was quite appalling.

 9        Q.   Did you personally ever see ammunition --

10        A.   It was as if a rocket had been fired.

11        Q.   Did you personally ever see any ammunition in the mosque?

12        A.   I apologise for the expression, but, Mr. Prosecutor, it's a

13     ridiculous question.  This happened ... the ammunition was hidden when we

14     weren't there.  We were taking Ahatovici when the mosque exploded, so no

15     one could see what you are suggesting.  But given the force of the

16     explosion, the detonation, smoke, and so on and so forth, we could

17     conclude that there was something in it.  I don't know what it was,

18     I am not an expert for explosives and do not understand these matters.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to comment on the

20     transcript.  It doesn't say that the witness said he didn't see them

21     bringing the ammunition into the mosque, but they drew this conclusion on

22     the basis of the explosions.  They couldn't see that because the Serbs

23     were not in Ahatovici at the time.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Well, I ask the CLSS to look into the response of

25     the witness later on.

Page 29868

 1             Let's continue.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   So essentially, it was a mere rumour that there had been

 4     explosives in the mosque and you deduced from the size of the explosion

 5     that there had been ammunition stored in the mosque.  You never saw any

 6     ammunition there yourself, did you?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   Now, who provided the statement of Ramiz Mujkic to you?

 9        A.   Well, I read it and saw it on television because it was broadcast

10     live on BN TV, or rather, it was shown again.

11        Q.   So you read his entire statement on the basis of a television

12     broadcast or are you referring to his oral evidence?

13        A.   Well, as I'm interested in the events that relate to Ahatovici

14     and the reactions that relate to Ahatovici, I have various statements at

15     home from witnesses from the Muslim side, and that included Ramiz's

16     statement.  I know Ramiz very well, and I can tell you that he gave a

17     quite fair statement but he didn't describe his side.  He augmented the

18     role of the Serbs and he got the dates a bit wrong.  I don't quite agree

19     with him as far as the dates are concerned.

20        Q.   Did any member of the Defence team provide you with that

21     statement?

22        A.   Well, I read it when they came to see me in my home.

23        Q.   Okay.  So my question --

24        A.   I apologise.  Those statements are old ones.  I don't know when

25     he previously testified.  These statements go back to -- well, I don't

Page 29869

 1     know which years.  Probably when he had been released, but I didn't read

 2     this statement.

 3        Q.   My question was:  Did any member of the Defence team provide you

 4     with a statement of Ramiz Mujkic?

 5        A.   We went through this when we had a conversation with

 6     Mr. Karadzic, but I didn't read it --

 7        Q.   It's a simple yes or no question.  Did a member of the Defence

 8     team provide you with a statement of Ramiz Mujkic?

 9        A.   I had a look at Ramiz Mujkic's statement during my conversation

10     with the president.  I had it in my hands and read it.

11        Q.   Did a member of the Defence team provide you with a statement of

12     Ramiz Mujkic?

13        A.   Well, have you understood what I said?  I had the statement in my

14     hands, and I read it.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Let's put it this way:  Where did you get that

16     statement?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I had my conversation with the

18     president, that is when I read through that statement.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, when did you get that statement for the first

20     time and from whom did you get that statement?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.  It was a long

22     time ago.  I read through some old statements, not only Ramiz Mujkic's

23     statement.  Someone would obtain the statement, then phone you up and

24     say, We have a statement, let's see what the enemy side has to say.  So I

25     can't remember.  It's not as if I only have Ramiz Mujkic's statement.  I

Page 29870

 1     have the statements of other witnesses too because I am interested in

 2     Ahatovici and that is why I took care to read it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             Back to you, Mr. Gaynor.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you very much.

21        Q.   I want to move now to the motive for the establishment of

22     Rajlovac municipality.  Before I do, can we -- we've agreed that after

23     the Serb take-over of Ahatovici, the entire Muslim population of

24     Ahatovici was taken away; we agree on that, do we?

25        A.   No, we do not.  The Muslim population at the beginning of July

Page 29871

 1     was, or rather, it was in June, was either taken away or they left of

 2     their own will.  As far as I can see here, Rajlovac municipality was set

 3     up sometime in February, up to the month of June, up to the 2nd of June,

 4     or rather, up to the 29th of May, 1992.  The Serbs, the Muslims, and the

 5     Croats were equal and lived freely in Rajlovac municipality.

 6        Q.   At page 2857 [sic] of yesterday's transcript you were giving an

 7     answer after I had asked you about the date of Muslim civilians from

 8     Ahatovici surrendering to Serb forces.

 9             You said that it started on the 31st of May and lasted until the

10     2nd of June.  You went on to say, "Only the Ahatovici local commune which

11     was inhabited by Muslims."  That's how you were referring to Ahatovici,

12     and later on you said:

13             "As for the civilians from Ahatovici, more specifically the

14     villages in Ahatovici which composed one-third of the local commune, they

15     were indeed taken to Rajlovac."

16             Do you recall that evidence?

17        A.   I do not remember because you confused me with all those

18     questions.  I know very little.  This is now a fair question.  Thank you,

19     Your Honours, for giving me a break.  I'm much more stable today and my

20     answers will be better today than yesterday.  When it comes to the local

21     commune of Dobrosevici, according to the 1991 census - and I had a

22     relative there and I helped them with the census - there were 1.066

23     Muslims, 999 Serbs, I don't remember the number of Croats.  I remember

24     those two numbers because they were very characteristic.  Moreover, the

25     fighting started during the night between the 29th of May and the

Page 29872

 1     30th of May, 1992, by the mortar attack on our positions, mounted by the

 2     Muslims.  Probably from the 31st of May until the 2nd of June, the Muslim

 3     civilians surrendered in that local commune.  On the 4th of June, when we

 4     entered Ahatovici, there was sporadic feeble fire.  One Serbian soldier

 5     died and two Muslim soldiers died, but there were no civilians.  In other

 6     words, until the 2nd of June, all the civilian population had been

 7     evacuated.

 8        Q.   When you say they had been evacuated, you mean they had been

 9     taken to the barracks at Rajlovac?

10        A.   I was not a direct participant in all that so I can't tell you

11     any facts.  However, according to other people's words, the southern

12     parts or the lower parts, excluding Ahatovici, had seen all the civilians

13     surrender and some of them, as far as I know, were taken not to be

14     exchanged.  They expressed a wish to be taken to Sarajevo and they were

15     escorted to the Croatian barricades in the village of Dobri [phoen].

16     When it comes to Ahatovici, that happened on the 2nd of June.  Most

17     probably all of those civilians ended up in Rajlovac.  I'm talking about

18     the 500 civilians, including women, children, and elderly.  I cannot

19     confirm this for a fact.  I heard it from others and I believe that to be

20     true.

21        Q.   And as you point out in paragraph 68 of your statement, in the

22     Serbian municipality of Rajlovac there were three Muslims:  Daughter,

23     Bahra Pasic and her parents.  That's at the bottom of paragraph 68.  So

24     can we agree after the Serb take-over of Ahatovici, the entire Muslim

25     population of Ahatovici --

Page 29873

 1        A.   I know, I know.

 2        Q.   -- was removed?

 3        A.   Some were removed, some left of their own will.  I absolutely

 4     agree.  However, yesterday when you put that question to me you did not

 5     understand my answer.  It is absolutely true that in Bojnik or in that

 6     general local commune after the fighting, not only Bahra and her father

 7     and mother remained.  A few more families were left behind.  I can't tell

 8     you exactly how many people.  But in any case, for example, the entire

 9     Pasic family that comprised several households, they were isolated

10     because there had been problems with the barracks in Butile, they were

11     isolated in some weekend cottages and they did not have the right to move

12     around freely in the direction of their own houses.

13        Q.   Yesterday at page 29852 you said in Rajlovac municipality only

14     economic reasons were in place for Rajlovac municipality to separate from

15     Novi Grad municipality.  My question is:  Is it your position that there

16     was no ethnically based motive for the establishment of Rajlovac

17     municipality?

18        A.   I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to allow me to finish my

19     previous answer because I believe that the Prosecutor did not understand

20     me and I believe that the Trial Chamber would benefit from the rest of my

21     answer.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could you answer the question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the microphone was on,

24     immediately after the fighting, after the conflict, not just the three

25     Muslims were left behind in Bojnik village.  It's half of the local

Page 29874

 1     community.  I don't know what happened in Bilokeci [phoen] and

 2     Dobrosevici because there were a lot more happenings there.  The entire

 3     Pasic was left behind.  Please do not hold me to the number.  I believe

 4     that there were some 50 of them.  As for the three people I mentioned,

 5     Bahra and her parents, they remained there through the war.  One of them

 6     died and was buried in a regular fashion.  The remainder of the Pasic

 7     family left of their own will towards Kiseljak -- I have no finished,

 8     please.  Not only the Pasic family remained.  There were also the

 9     Croatian family Bosnjak.  On the one hand I had the Croatian family as my

10     first neighbours and on the other side I had Muslims.  The entire Bosnjak

11     families remained there and lived there throughout the war.  Younger

12     members of that family, there was some who volunteered and joined the

13     Serbian units and there were others who left without any problems because

14     they didn't want to participate in the war.  They left and now they live

15     in Italy, Sweden, and God knows where.

16             Sir, you confused me yesterday when you put that question to me

17     and I did not provide you with the right answer and now I can do it --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dzino, it is not appropriate comment that the

19     Prosecutor, Mr. Gaynor, confused you.  I don't think he did.

20             Could you try to answer the question about the reason for the

21     separation or establishment of Rajlovac.  Do you remember the question?

22     Or shall I ask him to repeat that question?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember.  No problem there.

24             I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly; however, Rajlovac

25     municipality had existed up to the 1950s and Novi Grad municipality did

Page 29875

 1     not exist at the time.  Novi Grad municipality was then set up and

 2     comprised a territory of Rajlovac municipality.  It was an industrial

 3     area in that part of Novi Grad municipality.  Since all the income, all

 4     the profit from those companies were sent to Novi Grad and very little

 5     was left for the municipality of Rajlovac, the main reason, the principal

 6     reason, was the economic reason.  Because when you look at the map you

 7     will see that all of our roads were macadam roads, that they were dirt

 8     roads, and Mr. Ramiz Mujkic could confirm to you and say that we financed

 9     our own waterworks and telephone lines with very little financial aid

10     from Novi Grad municipality.

11             MR. GAYNOR:

12        Q.   Mr. Dzino, you refer at paragraph 14 of your statement to

13     Jovo Bozic, who was the president of the Serb municipality of Rajlovac.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, 65 ter 17258.

15        Q.   Mr. Dzino, you know Jovo Bozic, don't you?

16        A.   Yes, absolutely.

17        Q.   Right.  We're going to have a look at what he said about the

18     motive for the establishment of Rajlovac municipality.  Now, as you can

19     see from the opening paragraph -- there is an English translation of

20     this.  As you can see from the opening paragraph this is a statement of

21     Jovo Bozic.  And in the first sentence it -- the statement is dated the

22     17th of the 12th, 1992.  And the first sentence of the statement he says:

23             "I was appointed president of the Serbian municipality of

24     Rajlovac in the month of May and I am still upholding that position."

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 29876

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  We'll try and get the English uploaded.  There

 2     certainly is an English version available.

 3        Q.   First of all, can you confirm that in that opening paragraph he

 4     names the members of the war commission and one of those members is

 5     Mirko Krajisnik?

 6        A.   I can see that.

 7        Q.   And can you confirm that in that paragraph he says that apart

 8     from those members of the war commission, the commander of Rajlovac

 9     brigade, the head of the public security service sector, and head of the

10     police station Rajlovac were also present at the meetings on a regular

11     basis, meetings of the war commission were held every day, and prior to

12     that every three days.  The war commission was responsible for global

13     security situation in the area of the municipality and it was giving

14     directions regarding certain matters.

15             That's what it says there; correct?  Have you read that, sir?

16        A.   I don't know when they met, in what composition.  I believe at

17     that time - and that was in the month of May -- is that so?  I can't see

18     it.  Can you tell me when this document was issued?

19        Q.   This document is dated the 17th of December, 1992.  Now, it's

20     true, isn't it, that Mirko Krajisnik --

21        A.   Mirko, Mirko.  I'm interested in the month of May.  What is the

22     date in the month of May when this was happening?  Well, go on then.  Put

23     your question to me now.

24        Q.   First of all, let's clarify, Mirko Krajisnik is the brother of

25     Momcilo Krajisnik; right?

Page 29877

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   And I think that we can accept in the first paragraph of this

 3     statement the president of the municipality of Rajlovac is naming the

 4     members of the war commission and he is confirming that the war

 5     commission met with the head of the police station and the head of the

 6     public security service sector on a regular basis; do you agree?

 7        A.   I don't know that.  I'm not aware of that.  I'm not -- I was not

 8     a member of that commission.

 9        Q.   Right.  Well, let's move to his description of the motive for the

10     formation of the Serb municipality of Rajlovac.  That's at the bottom of

11     this page, please.  Now, in the first words of that paragraph -- Their

12     Honours do not have a copy of this statement in English so would you

13     kindly start reading the last paragraph on this statement, sir?  And

14     could you read it into the record and we'll continue until the end of the

15     paragraph?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dzino, if you could read it aloud we can hear

17     the interpretation.  So could you read it aloud for the benefit of the

18     Chamber.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The motive for the setting up of

20     the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac was its existence up to the year

21     1958 when it was disbanded only because it was inhabited by a majority

22     Serb population.  In order to prevent an even bigger expansion in the

23     settling of Muslims in the area which has increased as well as the legal

24     building of houses, before the war a Serbian municipality of Rajlovac had

25     been set up.  All that was done with a view to preserving the Serbian

Page 29878

 1     territory and is closely connected with all the political circles which

 2     in the multi-party period of the government in the former Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina represented the Serbian people and its interests in this

 4     area."

 5             Should I go on?  Do you want me to go on reading?

 6             MR. GAYNOR:

 7        Q.   Well, in fact, yes, the next portion concerns the person who whom

 8     Jovo Bozic reported to and some of the people he met.  So if I can ask

 9     you to read the next --

10             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that now we have the English translation

11     available?

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, yes, thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload them together.

14             MR. GAYNOR:

15        Q.   Well, first of all, Mr. --

16        A.   I apologise.  I apologise, sir.  Can this be blown up for me?

17        Q.   That's all right.  I'll ask you a question about the bit you've

18     just read out.  It's clear from what you've read that according to

19     Jovo Bozic, the motive for the establishment of the Serb municipality of

20     Rajlovac was on the one hand to prevent an even greater expansion of the

21     Muslims settling into the area and on the other hand of preserving

22     Serbian territory.  And all this was done in close connection with the

23     political circles that represented the Serbian people.  That's his

24     position, isn't it?

25        A.   Precisely so.

Page 29879

 1        Q.   Right.  Now, let's move on to the people to whom he reported.  If

 2     we look at the second paragraph, if we go to page 2 in English, please,

 3     if you look at the second paragraph in your version, we see that

 4     Mr. Bozic said that he reported to Momcilo Krajisnik, president of the

 5     Assembly of Republika Srpska, on a regular basis, either directly by

 6     telephone regarding the decisions adopted at the meetings of the war

 7     commission, achieved results, and a global security situation in the area

 8     of the municipality.  You see that?

 9        A.   Well, I do see it, but the letters are really small.  I can't

10     really read it and I really don't know what I'm supposed to say about

11     that, but go ahead.

12        Q.   We'll come to that.  He later refers to meetings with the most

13     responsible persons from the command of the armed forces in the

14     Republika Srpska, General Ratko Mladic and Colonel Galic.  Later on he

15     confirms that General Sipcic and Colonel Galic, representatives of the

16     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, visited the municipality on a couple of

17     occasions.  And further down below we see that he says:

18             "As president of the municipality I was in regular contact with

19     the command personnel of Rajlovac brigade, especially with commander and

20     chief of the staff."

21             Now, I put it to you, Mr. Dzino, that the Serb take-over of

22     Ahatovici was part of a plan co-ordinated at the highest levels to remove

23     the Muslim population from Ahatovici and to remove the non-Serb

24     population from the newly established municipality of Rajlovac.

25        A.   Was there a question for me anywhere?

Page 29880

 1        Q.   Yes, I'm putting that case to you.  I'm putting that

 2     interpretation of the events to you.  I'm inviting you to respond in any

 3     way you wish.

 4        A.   I believe that you're not right.  In the entire city of Sarajevo

 5     and its surroundings, there was shooting in March.  On the 22nd of April,

 6     there was an attack on Ilidza.  I don't know about Vogosca.  It was

 7     behind the hills.  We could not communicate with them.  However, we

 8     watched the fighting in Nedzarici and Ilidza with the naked eye.  I

 9     attended meetings where we talked to Hasan Mujkic, I personally talked to

10     him, and I was imploring with him not to start a war in our local

11     commune.  If he wanted to wage a war, he should go across the Bosnia

12     where there was fighting going on.  In other words, up to the

13     29th of May, 1992, up to 8.00 in the evening it was peaceful in our area.

14     All the skirmishes that happened during the night, there were no wounded,

15     there were no casualties, people were working on their land, and it was

16     peaceful up to the 29th of May, 1992.  In other words, nobody ever

17     ordered me to take Ahatovici, nor were we actually capable of doing that.

18     We simply defended ourselves in that area.  I suppose that you will have

19     other questions for me about that, then I will feel free to go into

20     greater length about the situation on the 29th of May, but I can do it

21     now if you wish.  In any case, up to that time, up to then, it was

22     peaceful.

23             One more thing, I know Jovo Bojic [as interpreted],

24     Mirko Krajisnik, and all those people you mentioned, I know who they are,

25     but up to that time I had never seen them.  I -- obviously I know

Page 29881

 1     Momcilo Krajisnik as well.

 2        Q.   We'll move on to another subject now, sir.  At paragraph -- this

 3     concerns snipers.  At paragraph 66 of your statement you say that you

 4     were a member of the Rajlovac Light Infantry Brigade.

 5             At paragraph 56 of your statement you say you never saw a

 6     professional sniper in your unit or other units of the SRK?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Very well.  I'd like to show you a document and that is

 9     65 ter 23827.  Mr. Dzino, as you can see, this document is dated the

10     3rd of November, 1993, and it bears a stamp in the top left corner of the

11     command of the Rajlovac Light Infantry Brigade.  Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   It appears to be addressed to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

14     command?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, in paragraph 1 do you see that the commander states that due

17     to an intense shortage of manpower in our brigade, we are, for the time

18     being, unable to set up a unit as ordered, but instead have available two

19     groups of snipers doing the work.

20        A.   And your question is?

21        Q.   Well, if we move down to paragraph 3 we see that he lists the

22     equipment he has available, including nine pieces of an M76,

23     7.9-millimetre sniper rifle.

24        A.   Question?

25        Q.   Do you therefore accept that the Rajlovac Light Infantry Brigade

Page 29882

 1     did, in fact, have snipers and did have sniper rifles?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, according to establishment, every squad, every

 3     group of ten soldiers, should have that.  And this is what the

 4     Light Infantry Brigade had, I'm reading:  M76 sniper, nine pieces,

 5     probably belonging to the brigade; then five 56-millimetre sniper, one

 6     piece, privately owned; and M48 carbine, three pieces privately owned,

 7     which means that we're talking about hunting rifles.  I suppose so.  I

 8     don't know for a fact.  I can't find this, but I know for a fact what I

 9     know for a fact.  Probably in the paragraph that you have just quoted I

10     told you that we did not have a professional sniper.  I didn't see them.

11     Do you know who those snipers were?  They were just foot soldiers that

12     had not been trained.  They were carrying sniper rifles.  They were

13     better shooters than others.  If there are any military experts here,

14     they can tell you how long a sniper should be trained for, how they

15     should behave to be effective.  This is an order.  I know who issued that

16     order.  I know who drafted it.  I can see from the signature.  There is

17     no dispute about that.  This is true.  However, it says here due to a

18     shortage of manpower they need snipers in order to protect their units.

19     This is not about any military establishment.  Those were people who were

20     on the positions who were better shooters, therefore they were called

21     snipers.

22        Q.   So it's your evidence, is it, that the reference to nine M76,

23     7.9-millimetre sniper rifles in this document is, in fact, a reference to

24     privately owned hunting rifles; is that your evidence?

25        A.   No, no, no, you haven't understood me.  Listen, it says 7.9 M76

Page 29883

 1     sniper, nine pieces.  I assumed that this was the property of the army.

 2     The following paragraph, 5.56 sniper, one piece, it says in brackets

 3     "privately owned," at least that's what it says in my document;

 4     7.9 -millimetre carbine, three pieces, privately owned.  So in the

 5     document -- this is a report, I assume, to SRK corps and they are

 6     informed that they have four privately owned snipers and nine military

 7     ones.  We're dealing with a brigade.  A brigade should have a hundred

 8     snipers, as per establishment roughly speaking.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted as next Prosecution

12     exhibit.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5976, Your Honours.

14             MR. GAYNOR:

15        Q.   I'd like to take you now, please, to paragraph 29 of your

16     statement, and you were referring to the hand-over of captives to

17     soldiers from the Rajlovac Brigade.  In that paragraph you say that one

18     of the officers whose name you do not know gave you a brochure of the

19     Geneva Conventions on warfare.  You say:

20             "I had not been acquainted with the content of the conventions

21     from before, but once I read it I realised that we acted completely

22     properly with captives and the dead members of the enemy army."

23             Do you see that?

24        A.   If it's not a problem, could you tell me which paragraph it is

25     in?

Page 29884

 1        Q.   Paragraph 29.

 2        A.   I can see that.

 3        Q.   All right.  I'd like you to tell us a little bit more about the

 4     circumstances of this incident.  How big was this brochure of the

 5     Geneva Conventions on warfare?

 6        A.   This is a brochure that I received at that time from the officer

 7     whose name I can't remember.  He was a Macedonian, Apostolovski,

 8     something like that, I don't know exactly.  I wouldn't like to speculate

 9     about his name.  I did my military service in the JNA in 1971 and 1972.

10     At a course I was informed of the Geneva Conventions.  I had never

11     previously read all of the conventions.  Throughout the war I was

12     concerned about doing something bad, something that might happen to my

13     people too.  I read the Geneva Conventions and we did everything we could

14     to abide by the Geneva Conventions.  But as for the fighting, people who

15     were killed in combat, well that was a military matter.  These are the

16     Geneva Conventions that I had brought with me.  I mentioned them in the

17     statement and I kept these conventions with me throughout the war time

18     period.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, if I may.  It

20     doesn't say that the witness said as far as combat is concerned, if they

21     weren't dead, I and my people would be dead.  That was not recorded.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

23             Mr. Dzino, could you speak a little bit slower for the benefit of

24     the Chamber to hear you -- hear you out?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try.

Page 29885

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Gaynor.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   So once Apostolovski gave you this brochure, did you sit yourself

 4     down immediately and read the entire brochure until you were satisfied

 5     that you had acted scrupulously in accordance with it?

 6        A.   The Chamber will caution me again, but at that time there was

 7     fighting.  A man gave me a brochure, said be careful, respect the

 8     Geneva Conventions, et cetera.  So there was fighting.  I had to sit down

 9     and read the conventions, the Geneva Conventions.  I read the

10     Geneva Conventions on the first day I was free, but up until that point

11     in time there was continuous fighting.  I don't want to be warned by the

12     Chamber, cautioned by the Chamber, but really don't ask me such

13     questions.  When there is fighting then you are concerned with beating

14     the enemy and remaining alive.  You don't spend time reading conventions.

15        Q.   The incidents you're describing happened shortly after the

16     take-over of Ahatovici by Serb forces, didn't it?

17        A.   Which incidents?  Which incidents are you referring to?

18        Q.   The incident when Apostolovski gave you a copy of the brochure of

19     the Geneva Conventions.

20        A.   No, no.  This was on the 2nd of June, 1992.  Can I describe the

21     event?

22        Q.   Yes, go ahead.

23        A.   In my unit, in my area of the zone of responsibility, the Serbs

24     didn't enter Ahatovici up until the 2nd of June, 1992.  An old man born

25     in 1939 Mladjen Lemez disappeared.  I ordered my soldiers not to let him

Page 29886

 1     go because he had a house and stables and two cows there in sort of

 2     no man's land.  The next day they said Mladjen wasn't there.  Mladjen

 3     went to feed the livestock and then he disappeared.  When they told me

 4     about this, I and three other soldiers went to look.  I went to that

 5     no-man zone.  I approached the house.  I saw Mladjen Lemez on the metal

 6     railings, against the metal railings.  He was dead.  I can't say now

 7     whether half his head had been blown off or cut off.  The corpse had been

 8     there for a while because there were maggots in it.  We entered the house

 9     and the stables.  We had a look around.  We assumed that there were enemy

10     soldiers there.  At that point in time as that is the terrain, there is a

11     sort of hill and there was a stream above us and we noticed a group of

12     soldiers.  In the statement I said that there were 50 of them.  It

13     wouldn't be a large number for you, but there were far more of them.  As

14     our position was unfavourable, we had to take action.  They were in a

15     column, advancing in a column.  At the head of the column there was

16     Hasan Mujkic.  They were so near that I could recognise the first few

17     men.  They were all in camouflage uniforms and were wearing helmets and

18     they were all armed.  The four of us took up our positions, opened fire,

19     threw grenades at them, and that group of soldiers went back.

20             In the meantime, as the fighting broke out, let me point out that

21     we did not have any communication with the unit.  We didn't have any

22     Motorolas.  There was only a courier connection.  I informed the unit of

23     the positions to come and assist us.  In the meantime the Muslims had

24     regrouped and attacked the Serbian houses in Petrovici to the right of

25     us.  The unit had already been informed that they had been attacked.

Page 29887

 1     They were caught in cross-fire and 13 men were killed and 19 taken

 2     captive.  And allow me to finish.  Of those 13 men who were killed,

 3     neighbours of mine on the whole, a few of them were neighbours.  Of the

 4     13 killed men I only knew two of them.  And I -- I was born in 1951.  I

 5     was 42 at the time.  I went to work with those men, I knew them.  There

 6     were ten men whom I didn't know.  Of the 19 captives, there were only a

 7     few whom I knew.  All the others were from elsewhere.

 8             And let me finish.  A while ago you mentioned nine snipers in the

 9     Rajlovac Brigade.  When we gathered the weapons from those who had been

10     killed and wounded, well there was an Osa hand-held rockets-launcher,

11     there were ten Zoljas, there were seven snipers.  In my statement there

12     is a printing error, there were five military snipers and there were two,

13     I don't know, American weapons, that's what we call them.  I apologise.

14     Let me finish.  They had special handmade knives for slaughtering.  They

15     had tools to take out people's eyes.  So this was the so-called nice army

16     and we were bad guys and my Rajlovac Brigade at that time, I don't know

17     the date, had a total of nine snipers.  Are you satisfied with that?

18             I haven't finished yet, so --

19        Q.   Mr. Dzino, you -- could you just focus on the questions which are

20     put to you and answer those questions.  The -- it was on the

21     2nd of June, 1992, that Apostolovski gave you a copy of the brochure.

22     You read it carefully and you satisfied yourself that you were acting in

23     accordance with the Geneva Conventions; correct?  Yes or no?

24        A.   Absolutely, absolutely.

25        Q.   Okay.  This was -- could we call up, please, P4070 e-court,

Page 29888

 1     page 202.

 2             Two days after this, the mosque at Ahatovici was blown up, wasn't

 3     it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   We'll just confirm the damage to that mosque in a moment.

 6             Those are photographs taken in 1996 of what once was the

 7     Ahatovici mosque; isn't that right, Mr. Dzino?

 8        A.   I assume so.

 9        Q.   Now, does that appear to you to be consistent with a rigid

10     application of the Geneva Conventions?

11        A.   Your Honours, I have to provide a detailed answer.  I'm

12     testifying here on my own behalf.  I am defending my actions and the

13     actions of my unit.  My unit wasn't in Ahatovici taking the mosque there.

14     I'm not aware of that.  At the beginning of the -- my testimony, I

15     suggested that you show a map of our local commune.  Everything would be

16     clear to you in such a case.  Now you're asking me this question.  My

17     unit was only on one side of Ahatovici; other units were on the other

18     side.  We didn't have any contact.  I don't know what was going on on the

19     other side.  I'm talking about a platoon.  I would like us to have a map

20     of the area that I defended.  This wasn't in the area of my

21     responsibility.  I saw this from a distance of about 1 kilometre, and I

22     am testifying that it was blown up.  I saw the explosion.  As for how it

23     happened, well -- the Geneva Conventions, I had the Geneva Conventions in

24     my pocket and I abided by them.  If others didn't, that's not my problem.

25     Now you asked me about the military and how the Rajlovac municipality was

Page 29889

 1     established.  I couldn't be the commander of the platoon and the

 2     president of the Rajlovac municipality or the Crisis Staff at the time --

 3     at the same time.  So you should ask me questions only if I can answer

 4     these questions.

 5             Please go ahead.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  No further questions, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.  There are

10     a few matters that I have to clarify that arose in the course of the

11     cross-examination.  Good morning, Your Excellencies.  Good morning to

12     everyone.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Lieutenant, sir, on page 29 in the question it

15     was suggested that the mosque was blown up.  You were asked to confirm

16     that and you said "yes."  And then this photograph was shown.  Did we

17     have a shell as part of our weapons that had a charge that could dispel

18     parts of the mosque a hundred metres away?

19        A.   My unit had automatic weapons.  It didn't have shells of any

20     kind, or rather, we had a hand-held rocket-launcher.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could a hand-held rocket-launcher cause such damage

22     to the mosque?

23        A.   Well, I would have found that incredible.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked about the Serbian municipality of

25     Rajlovac.  Could we very briefly have a look at P2329.  I apologise.

Page 29890

 1     That's a mistake.  It's probably -- just bear with me a minute.

 2             Do you recognise this signature?  There is no stamp, but do you

 3     recognise the signature?

 4        A.   No, I don't.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that there is no protocol and no

 6     stamp on the document and the signature is not a familiar one?

 7        A.   That's quite correct.  I can't recognise the signature.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Are you aware of the fact that the municipality was

 9     also responsible for defending its own territory within the

10     Territorial Defence and the president of the municipality was the

11     president of the defence council as well?

12        A.   Well, if it didn't have such responsibility, the municipality and

13     the president of the municipality, if that hadn't been the case we would

14     have organised ourselves and defended ourselves, because that was the

15     situation.  The president was only performing his duties.

16        Q.   Now I would like to have a look at the document on the

17     promulgation of a law -- but before we find it could we see 1D3259.  You

18     were asked about the late Jovo Bozic, the president of the

19     Municipal Assembly of Rajlovac?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   We don't have a translation.  We weren't going to tender this.

22     You weren't asked about the circumstances.  Could I ask you to have a

23     look at the last paragraph in the first column.  Since it's very small,

24     I'll read it out.  In the answer it says:

25             "Through the will of communist prominent people and as part of

Page 29891

 1     the new territorial organisation, the municipality in Rajlovac in 1959

 2     was disbanded.  It was a matter of breaking up the Serbian corps in the

 3     area.  In 1974 when the Novo Sarajevo municipality became too large,

 4     initiative was taken to establish another municipality.  It would be

 5     logical for that municipality to be," and then we go on to the next page.

 6     "It would be logical to renew the work of the municipality of Rajlovac,

 7     but there were two other suggestions that were deliberately made and they

 8     concern Sarajevsko Polje and Novi Grad.  Without having consulted the

 9     people it was decided through an election that the new municipality

10     should be called Novi Grad Sarajevo.  So they were out-voted."

11             So does this tally with the information that you have about the

12     fate of the municipality of Rajlovac?  You could answer this question by

13     simply saying yes or no.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let's see what it says further down in the column on

16     the second page.  I'll read slowly:

17             "It was only after the first multi-party elections in the former

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina that there was an opportunity to find a remedy to

19     this injustice.  We created a committee for establishing the

20     municipality.  And in a plebiscite of the Serbian people on remaining in

21     Yugoslavia we made a suggestion to the people and asked them to say how

22     to divide the territory" --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The accused is kindly asked to slow down when

24     reading.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29892

 1        Q.    "... the answer was a hundred per cent positive."

 2             Let me ask you the following:  Do you remember that before the

 3     war for economic, cultural, and other reasons there was an action that

 4     was carried out in many large municipalities in order to establish a

 5     number of municipalities, the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac, the

 6     Muslim municipality of Rajlovac, the Serbian municipality of

 7     Novo Sarajevo, and so on and so forth?

 8        A.   Yes, in fact all the people wanted to be compact.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Could we go back to the first page.  In the second

10     paragraph we have the answer.  I'll read this out slowly:

11             "From individual Muslims and other sources, we had precise

12     information on the semi-illegal work of the SDA.  Just before the war

13     broke out they started distributing weapons openly.  The centre where

14     extremists gathered were mosques in Sokolje and Brijesce Brdo where

15     Alija Izetbegovic and Muhamed Cengic often went.  The Muslims were so

16     arrogant that at public meetings they openly started threatening the

17     Serbs.  Later we obtained certain names and lists of members of the SDA

18     to whom the party promised up to 1.500 square metres of Serbian land when

19     the Chetniks were driven out."

20             Does this also agree or tally with the information that you had

21     at that time?

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, but one should also add

24     the mosque in Ahatovici to this.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.  That's one of the clearest examples of a

Page 29893

 1     leading questions that I've seen so far.  Indeed, Mr. Karadzic said, "In

 2     the second paragraph we have the answer."  This again -- once again he

 3     has openly defied the Trial Chamber's instructions to refrain from asking

 4     leading questions in re-examination.  We've seen that he does know how to

 5     ask non-leading questions.  I would request him to ask non-leading

 6     question in redirect examination.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell us again why this is a leading

 8     question?

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  First of all, he says, "In the second paragraph we

10     have the answer."  He reads it out.  And then he says, "Does this agree

11     or tally with the information that you have at that time."  This is

12     coming on the back of a couple of questions earlier on where he's

13     essentially leading the witness in the direction that he wants the

14     witness to go.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I tend to agree with you.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I respond?  My question was

18     whether this tallied with his information.  As for everything else, I was

19     reading out an interview.  These weren't my questions.  I read out what

20     Bozic himself said.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  The rule is simply this, Mr. Karadzic, you are

23     suggesting the answer by the way you are putting your question; that's

24     why it's a leading question.  Please keep that in mind.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.  I'll

Page 29894

 1     just adhere to the text.  I can ask him what he knows about this because

 2     Bozic became part of this testimony because of the Prosecution.

 3                           [Defence counsel confer]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Well, my question is:  How does this tally with what you knew?

 7        A.   Well, I didn't know what was happening in Brijesce Brdo and

 8     Sokolje; however, there was a similar situation in Ahatovici.  Prominent

 9     functionaries from the SDA, from Ahatovici, like Izetbegovic,

10     Bakir Izetbegovic, he later became the MUP minister; there were regular

11     visits to his house without any problems.  But he would bring in Cengic,

12     for example, Pusin.  It was said that Alija Izetbegovic also went there.

13     So there were frequent visits of high-level functionaries from the SDA to

14     Ahatovici during that period of time.  There was a similar situation, or

15     rather, after Ahatovici had been taken we saw that they were very well

16     armed, well organised, and you didn't give me the opportunity to provide

17     you with more assistance because they had 262 soldiers from local

18     inhabitants who were in 11 platoons.  So the organisation was a military

19     one.  Positions had been fortified with trenches, et cetera, whereas in

20     our case people didn't want to dig.  They were behind their houses,

21     behind trees, and so on and so forth.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could I draw your attention to another paragraph

23     which I will read out very slowly.  It's to the right of this one:

24             "The first real fighting started on Zuc, or rather, on the slopes

25     above the Zrak company.  On the 8th of June, the Muslims carried out a

Page 29895

 1     terrible crime there.  They set fire to 25 Serbian houses.  And entire

 2     families Pajdakovici [phoen], Breza, Simonici [phoen], Starcevici,

 3     Babici, Odzakovici, and others saved themselves by fleeing to the

 4     headquarters of the municipality."

 5             How does this tally with your information, the information that

 6     you had?

 7        A.   That's correct.  In fact, my family is also concerned here.  I

 8     saw those people, I listened to their stories, that they were

 9     slaughtered, massacred.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go to the following page.  It says here in the

11     second line:

12             "This is the real truth and not what General Kukanjac is saying.

13     He did not help us at all with anything.  On the contrary, his

14     subordinate officer Miletic, the then-commander of the Rajlovac barracks,

15     distributed 247 automatic rifles to Muslims in Sokolje and Brijesce Brdo

16     as well as combat kits."

17             Was this Miletic a Serb, judging by his family name?

18        A.   Yes, judging by his family name I suppose so, so probably.

19        Q.   Do you know anything about that?  Do you know that the JNA

20     behaved objectively, as they say, and distributed weapons among the

21     Muslim?

22        A.   Not in connection with your specific question.  I can tell you

23     that we knew that the arms were distributed among Serbs and Muslims, but

24     I -- let me tell you about an event.  I came across a neighbour, a

25     Muslim, in 1998.  And since we had been good friends, he told me

Page 29896

 1     jokingly, I know when you received automatic rifles, but so that you know

 2     we got machine-guns, which means that they fared better than us.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is the transcript

 4     enough or should we tender this interview into evidence to be marked for

 5     identification while the translation is pending?  I know that it's very

 6     hard to admit second-hand interviews, but in this case maybe what has

 7     entered into the transcript will suffice.  Maybe the Trial Chamber will

 8     rely only on that and will not need to admit the document as such.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I tend to agree with that suggestion, in

10     particular given his statement in the military court was not tendered.

11             Do you have further re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, a few more questions and I

13     will need about 20 more minutes or perhaps 15.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Then that being the case, we'll take a break now.

15     We'll break for half an hour and resume at three past 11.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             And now I would like to call up 65 ter 17258.  We have already

21     seen that.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   While we're waiting, Lieutenant, sir, was your unit geared

24     towards an urban part and where was its contact point with the enemy?

25        A.   I apologise, President, can you refer me to a specific period?

Page 29897

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection, Mr. President.  I don't recall this

 2     arises out of the cross-examination.  This could have been raised in

 3     direct examination.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  How does it arise from the cross-examination

 5     of Mr. Gaynor?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Lieutenant told us that by

 7     establishment they were supposed to have a hundred snipers.  I'm

 8     interested in their use.  How come a brigade should have a hundred

 9     snipers?  What would be their role?

10             JUDGE KWON:  So is that a question for the witness?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Okay.  Let's do it that way.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   What would that many sniper rifles do in a brigade?  What would

14     they be used for?

15        A.   I did not answer in that sense.  I did not say that my brigade

16     should have had a hundred sniper rifles.  I was comparing it to a platoon

17     which had seven sniper rifles.  Following that logic, a brigade should

18     have a hundred sniper rifles.  We didn't.  We had that one platoon and at

19     the beginning of the war on the 2nd of June is what we had, and I

20     answered the question in that sense.

21        Q.   Thank you.  In other words, your brigade had less than one Muslim

22     platoon?

23        A.   Yes, yes, that particular platoon.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 7 in both

25     languages, page 7.

Page 29898

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is an interview by the late Mr. Bozic.  I'm going to read

 3     the second paragraph where he says:

 4             "According to the information I have due to sniping activities by

 5     the enemy in the barracks, about 40 people were killed and about

 6     100 wounded.  In relation to this I asked Colonel Galic from the corps to

 7     undertake energetic measures in order to neutralise snipers.  As far as I

 8     know, he ordered Lieutenant-Colonel Golijanin to burn down the bushes

 9     which the enemy used for their snipers, but the command of the

10     Rajlovac Brigade failed to do anything in this respect.

11             "Likewise, the brigade command allowed enemy snipers to sneak

12     into the settlement of Bacici and also enemy is digging bunkers in the

13     embankment area towards Brijesce in failing to undertake any measures to

14     prevent those things."

15             How does this tally with what you know?

16        A.   The fact is that most of the soldiers were killed by sniping and

17     the reason was the fact that we were in a subordinated position, in a

18     less-favourable position.  We were in a field when the Muslims were up in

19     the hills.  In front of us we had the Sokolje settlement which, according

20     to some rough estimates, had about 1500 houses, which means that from

21     each window, from each roof-top, sniper fire could be opened.  We were

22     literally in a meadow before we could dig ourselves in and fortify our

23     positions.  Before that, a lot of our soldiers died due to sniping

24     incidents.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 29899

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before we proceed further.

 2             Mr. Gaynor, since this was not tendered can I ask you in what

 3     context Mr. Bozic gave this statement in the military court?  Can you

 4     assist us?

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm not entirely sure about that from the content of

 6     the statement itself.  It appears to relate to the activities of

 7     paramilitary groups that -- and he was questioned about that, including

 8     Brne Gavrilovic.  If Your Honours wish to admit this statement, I have

 9     no objection.  If Mr. Karadzic wants to tender it, I’ve no objection.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Let's see how it evolves.  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

11             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You therefore are telling us about soldiers being killed by

15     sniper fire.  If your brigade had had sniper rifles, how would it have

16     used it?  Did it have an opportunity to open fire on the city?

17        A.   Our brigade did not need sniper rifles.  We had no targets for

18     sniper rifles.  We were in an unfavourable position so we couldn't target

19     anything.  As far as the city is concerned, the city could not be

20     targeted.  It could be targeted by artillery weapons, but when it comes

21     to sniper rifle we did not even see the city.  From our positions, it was

22     impossible to see the city, let alone anything else.  And moreover, when

23     Brijesce Polje is mentioned, in front of us we had an embankment, a

24     railway track, some high-rise building; for example, Centrotrans and

25     others.  On the right side we had the Valter Peric company, and so on and

Page 29900

 1     so forth.  I can't remember all of those buildings.  If I had a map I

 2     could tell you more.  Therefore, we actually didn't need sniper rifles.

 3     The line was so close to us that we could open fire from ordinary

 4     infantry weapons.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I will try to put questions to which you will be able

 6     to answer yes or no.  The buildings that you have just mentioned, were

 7     they residential or commercial buildings?

 8        A.   They were commercial buildings.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,

10     page 8.  I'm interested in just one more paragraph in this document.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   In the middle I'm going to read a couple of sentences:

13             "Immediately before the war, contacts were established with the

14     Muslim staffs around Rajlovac in order to strike a mutual agreement on

15     refraining from mutual attacks.  On such occasions, delegations were set

16     up, so once I was sent Ahatovici.  I also know that

17     Radoljub Bato Milicevic was a member of a delegation that went to

18     Boljakov Potok, and so on and so forth.

19             How does this tally with what you know?

20        A.   I don't know when the late Jovo Bozic went to Ahatovici.  I

21     really don't know.  I know that in my local commune meetings were

22     organised, that they were initiated by the Serbs, and subject was

23     refraining from attacks, good neighbourly relations, and so on and so

24     forth.  There were many such attacks, even on the eve of the start of the

25     fighting.  Hasan Mujkic came to one of those meetings.  He was armed.  He

Page 29901

 1     was wearing a camouflage uniform.  He bore the markings of the Skorpions

 2     and Green Berets.  He had two escorts.  He gave us some conditions which

 3     we did not accept, and then he left the meeting, followed by all the

 4     Muslims because he had ordered them to leave the meeting.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see P2315.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Yesterday you were asked why the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac

 8     had been set up and you answered that you believed it was not the Serbian

 9     municipality of Rajlovac that was originally set up, but just the

10     municipality of Rajlovac.  In the former municipality of Rajlovac, were

11     Ahatovici, Dobrosevici, and Zabrdje and all those settlements part of

12     that municipality?

13        A.   Yes, they were.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please slow down.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this part here be zoomed in,

16     please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Could you both -- both of you slow down in putting

18     the question and answering the question.

19             Do you understand that, sir, Mr. Dzino?  Please put -- yeah,

20     please put a pause before --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  -- you start answering the question.

23             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29902

 1        Q.   I don't know how much you know about legal matters, Lieutenant.

 2     However, I want to ask you a question which will not be leading.  Is this

 3     a decree on the promulgation of the law or some other decision, the thing

 4     that I signed here?

 5        A.   It's a decree.

 6        Q.   Is this municipality being set up as a Serbian municipality of

 7     Rajlovac or just the municipality of Rajlovac?

 8        A.   Just the municipality of Rajlovac.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  We don't need this document anymore.  In other words,

10     a law is one thing and the promulgation of such a law is a different

11     thing?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   We mentioned Mr. Mujkic here.  He testified in this case on

14     25th February on page 12436.  He said that they did not have any trenches

15     or bunkers, that they did not have that and that he didn't remember that

16     he had ever said that -- I suppose that he was confronted with his

17     previous statement.  He said that he didn't -- they didn't have mortars

18     or howitzers.  Is that true?

19        A.   The complete village of Ahatovici was surrounded by bunkers,

20     trenches.  On the 2nd of June, when we stormed the first bunkers, we

21     found field telephones connected with wire lines.  We didn't even know

22     what those were.  In my previous statement, I didn't mention that one

23     60-millimetre mortar was taken from that group.  I did not finish.  In

24     the night between 29 and 30 May, fire was opened at us from 82-millimetre

25     mortars.  I was there and I knew that it was the case because I saw the

Page 29903

 1     launchers that remained in the ground.  I knew that those were

 2     82-millimetre mortars.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Lieutenant, sir.  I have no further questions for you.

 4     Thank you for having come here to testify.

 5        A.   Not at all.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Unless my colleagues have questions for

 7     you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Dzino.  On behalf of the Chamber,

 8     I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now

 9     you are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have a request, if I

11     may.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say good-bye to the

14     President?  We celebrate the same religious holiday.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I tender a copy of the

16     Geneva Conventions if Mr. Dzino doesn't want to part with the original?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Is it necessary?  Do we not have the

19     Geneva Convention already?  We saw it, it was recorded, and I think it's

20     not necessary to tender it.  But if you insist I will discuss it with my

21     colleagues.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to demonstrate how it

23     looked, what the document looked like when it was distributed at the

24     beginning of the war.  I'm not interested in the contents, but the form.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  I think Mr. Karadzic is referring to the brochure,

Page 29904

 1     not the entirety of the conventions --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes --

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  -- and its appendices, but we have no objection if a

 4     copy is made of this witness's copy.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then the Registry will get a photocopy

 6     of that brochure with the assistance of Mr. Dzino.  Thank you.

 7             Please have a safe journey back home.  You said that already.  It

 8     has been conveyed.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no, that's sufficient.  You said that.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE KWON:  And who is our next witness, Mr. Robinson?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Predrag Trapara.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's bring him in.

15             Let us give the exhibit number for the brochure.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D2388, Your Honours.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20             JUDGE KWON:  If you could take the solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  PREDRAG TRAPARA

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please take a seat and make yourself comfortable.

Page 29905

 1             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Trapara.

 5        A.   Good morning, sir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6082 in

 7     e-court.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Trapara, did you provide my Defence with a statement and do

10     you see it now in front of you on the screen?

11        A.   Yes, I can see it.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read it?  Does it accurately reflect what you

13     had to say?

14        A.   Yes, I read it and it does reflect what I wanted to say.

15        Q.   Did you sign the statement?

16        A.   Yes, I signed it.

17        Q.   I have to wait and I need to ask you to wait between questions

18     and answers to allow the interpreters to interpret correctly.

19             If I were to put the same questions to you, would your answers be

20     the same?

21        A.   Yes, they would be.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

23     tender this statement pursuant to 92 ter Rule with two additional

24     documents in the package.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, could you clarify whether -- whether

Page 29906

 1     or not you're tendering his transcript of testimony in the Milosevic

 2     case?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  No, we're not, Mr. President.  This statement was

 4     submitted before our discussion about this issue with the earlier

 5     witness.  So it's the same position.  We don't tender it.  But it was

 6     mentioned in the witness's statement, and we'll try to avoid that

 7     happening in the future.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So you're tendering only the map?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor, any objections?

11             MR. GAYNOR:  No objection, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The statement and the associated exhibit, which is a

13     map marked by the witness, will be tender -- will be admitted.

14             Shall we give the number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 1D06082 will be Exhibit D2389

16     and 65 ter number 1D08535 will be Exhibit D2390.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I'm going to read a short

20     summary of Mr. Trapara's statement in English.

21             [In English] Predrag Trapara lived in Lukavica.  He was commander

22     of the 5th Company of the 2nd Infantry Battalion of the

23     1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.  In September 1991 he used to see

24     Juka Prazina with his armed paramilitary group at Mojmilo Brdo, where

25     they conducted some sort of patrols.  In contact with his company was the

Page 29907

 1     2nd Battalion of the 101st Mountain Brigade of the 1st Corps of BH army.

 2     They had 82-millimetre-calibre mortars in the sector of Aneks.

 3             During the war, his unit engaged predominantly in defensive

 4     actions.  The line of disengagement itself was created spontaneously

 5     because the Serbs went outside their own houses and the Muslims outside

 6     their own.  This company never pushed the line of disengagement

 7     towards -- forward towards the Muslim territory nor did the opposed

 8     Muslim forces manage to move our -- Serb lines backwards.

 9             The units of the Muslim army ranged against them were much more

10     numerous than his unit.  They had infantry weapons, mortars, Brownings,

11     heavy weapons, and an enormous number of sharpshooters.  The latter were

12     their strongest point.  Serbian positions and civilians were exposed to

13     sniper fire almost every day, and during the night Predrag Trapara's unit

14     had to rig up shelters made of boards and blankets especially on the

15     Lukavica-Pale road.

16             Predrag Trapara and his unit had information and the data that

17     civilian facilities were being used -- abused for military purposes by

18     the opposing unit, information that he got from people who had fled from

19     Muslim territory into the Serbian.  This unit did not open fire at all on

20     the depth of the enemy territory but on trenches on the line of

21     disengagement.  Muslim positions were often in the houses and cellars of

22     houses which were on the line of confrontation, but there were no

23     civilians in those houses according to his information.

24             Never he, or any other member of his unit, or their subordinated

25     or superior commands, intended to cause civilian casualties or terrorise

Page 29908

 1     civilians in the territory under Muslim control or exert psychological

 2     influence on them.  They never received or issued any verbal or written

 3     orders to that effect.  On the contrary, orders and instructions from

 4     superior commands were to open fire exclusively at the enemy army.  The

 5     battalion commander -- command issued orders to his unit to the effect

 6     that civilians in the city section under the control of the Muslim

 7     authorities must not be the object of attack.  With regard to

 8     water-supply, the battalion command ordered that Muslim settlements must

 9     be supplied with water.  Civilians in the zone of responsibility of his

10     unit were terrified as the shelling from the Muslim side was frequent.

11     Civilian casualties and material damage to the civilian houses were

12     usually within his zone of responsibility -- usual within his zone of

13     responsibility.

14             In February 1994, his mother was wounded in front of their house.

15     She was wounded from a rifle and both her bones beneath the knees were

16     broken and she is using crutches to this very day.

17             Members of his unit were local people, inhabitants of that

18     settlement, and he assesses their training level as medium.  They had no

19     trained professional sharpshooters.  The command of the unit was composed

20     by non-professional officers.  This fact to a certain degree influenced

21     the quality of direction, command and control of his unit.

22             With regard to the ammunition stocks, they had no artillery.  And

23     as regards infantry ammunition, the situation tended to change.  The

24     permanent orders from superior commands to the expenditure of the

25     ammunition were that ammunition must be used sparingly.  His unit always

Page 29909

 1     let humanitarian relief pass through their territory.  There were

 2     examples of abuse of humanitarian relief on the part of international

 3     forces.  On one occasion the military police discovered seven rifles in

 4     the humanitarian supply intended for the Muslim part of the city.

 5             Muslim units ranged against them frequently violated cease-fires,

 6     and intensified works and digging of communication trenches towards Serb

 7     positions, work usually done under coercion by Serb civilians who had

 8     remained in the Muslim part of the city.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I only have one question as part of the examination-in-chief.

11     Mr. Trapara, just prior to the war were you involved in an incident?  Was

12     there a misunderstanding that you had with the police?  And if that's the

13     case, could you tell the Chamber about the nature of that incident?

14        A.   Yes, I did.  In October 1991 there was an incident I was involved

15     in that had to do with weapons.  What do I mean by that?  This is related

16     to what was stated at the beginning of my statement; namely, that in

17     September 1991 on Mojmilo hill just above my house I observed

18     Juka Prazina with his paramilitary formation whose patrols and sporadic

19     shooting caused unrest amongst the Serbian people in our territory.  And

20     the second half of October, my uncle woke me up at half past 1.00 in the

21     morning.  He told me to accompany him to the village of Miljevici.  We

22     also took a relative of mine with us.  When we arrived up there, he

23     parked his lorry.  We didn't load anything onto the lorry.  I didn't even

24     know what we were to load.  Later we set off in the direction of the

25     village of Ivanic and that is where we located that lorry.  Later it

Page 29910

 1     turned out that there were weapons in the lorry.

 2             Immediately, five minutes, after the lorry had come to a halt, a

 3     police patrol vehicle arrived with three policemen in it.  I knew all

 4     three of them:  One of them was Jure, a sergeant in Vrapce; the other one

 5     was Sulejman Zolj from Bistrik; and the third one was Pajdakovic [phoen]

 6     of Serbian ethnicity.  That was up in the direction of Zuc or from the --

 7     he was from the direction of Zuc.  One of them only said, Who is the

 8     driver of this lorry?  My uncle said, I am.  Please get into the lorry.

 9     Sulejman, the policeman, got into the lorry with him.  The two others,

10     the two other policemen, entered the vehicle, or rather, the police

11     patrol vehicle and escorted the lorry towards the Vrace sector and

12     probably they later took them to the central prison.  As far as we were

13     concerned, I read the document that arrived from the MUP of the former SR

14     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in that document it states that I and my

15     relative fled, which is not true.  On the following day, in the morning,

16     I went to work as usual.  I worked in post office number 2 in Sarajevo at

17     the new station.  I worked there for seven days.  I didn't have any

18     problems.  And then two military policemen arrived in a patrol vehicle

19     and informed me and my relative, who also worked in the post office with

20     me, that we should go to the Viktor Bubanj barracks with them in order to

21     give a statement there.

22             We went there and we spent 29 days there.  We were accused.

23     There was a military court that put us on trial.  After that period of

24     time had elapsed, we were released, having been given a conditional

25     sentence, and I returned to my usual work.  I continued working in post

Page 29911

 1     office number 2 until the 3rd of April, 1992.  And after that date I

 2     didn't return there because of my own safety.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Which army are we dealing with?  Whose military

 4     policemen and which military court are we dealing?  Who was prosecuting

 5     you?

 6        A.   This was the army, or rather, the military policemen of the

 7     former JNA, two policemen from a former JNA.  And the court in the

 8     Viktor Bubanj barracks was a military court.

 9        Q.   It was also a JNA court?

10        A.   Yes, it was also a JNA court.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no other questions for the

13     moment so I give the floor to the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Trapara, as you have noted, your evidence in

15     chief was admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  You will

16     be now further cross-examined by the Prosecution.

17             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Trapara.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   The witness statement that you've just confirmed, could you tell

23     us which members of the Defence team took that statement from you?

24        A.   Mr. Sladojevic, Marko.

25        Q.   Anybody else?

Page 29912

 1        A.   I don't understand.

 2        Q.   Was Milomir Savcic or Slobodan Batinic involved in the taking of

 3     your statement?

 4        A.   Well, before Mr. Marko, I first had contact with Milomir Savcic.

 5     Yes, that is true.

 6        Q.   Did he take the first version of your statement from you?

 7        A.   Well, I wouldn't say that he took the first version.

 8        Q.   In any event, he was involved in preparing your statement, was

 9     he?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Have you ever been a member of a political party?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Which one?

14        A.   The SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party.

15        Q.   When did you join it?

16        A.   I joined it after the Dayton Agreement, so that was around

17     April 1996.  I was on the list of deputies, but the elections were

18     postponed for two years.  So officially, the election was in 1998 but I

19     was a party of the -- I was a member of the political party as of 1996.

20        Q.   Are you still a member?

21        A.   Well, in my heart but not actively.

22        Q.   I'd now like to turn to -- I'd like to confirm, first of all,

23     that you did -- you were on the list of candidates for election in 1996,

24     weren't you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29913

 1        Q.   And that was in the Municipal Assembly of Srpsko Novo Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You also stood for election in 2005, and that was for the

 4     Municipal Assembly of Lukavica?

 5        A.   Yes, because by a decision from Serbian -- Serbian Novo Sarajevo

 6     couldn't have that name, so Lukavica was involved but it means the same

 7     thing.  Because later it became eastern Sarajevo, so Lukavica was only a

 8     sort of transitional name.

 9        Q.   And in both of those elections you did stand as a candidate of

10     the Serb Democratic Party, didn't you?

11        A.   I was a candidate in 1998, in the year 2000, and in the year

12     2004.  And on all three occasions, I was elected as a national deputy.  I

13     had three mandates as a deputy from this political party.

14        Q.   You did also stand in 1996 as well, didn't you?

15        A.   Yes.  As I said, in 1996 I was a candidate and I became a member

16     of the party at the time.  However, the local elections were postponed

17     and held two years later.  So they didn't take place at the same time as

18     the general election.  So they took place after the general election.

19     They would have been held in 1996, but they were postponed and held two

20     years later.

21        Q.   I'd now like to turn to the incident on the

22     15th of October, 1991, when you were arrested for the illegal possession

23     of weapons and explosives.  Can you give the Court an idea of how many

24     weapons were in the truck when the truck was stopped?

25        A.   I can't remember exactly.  I know more or less what sort of

Page 29914

 1     weapons were in the truck, but I can't remember exactly what the quantity

 2     was.

 3        Q.   Could you describe the kinds of weapons, please?

 4        A.   There were these old weapons, so-called Dobosar 7.62-millimetre

 5     pistols and PAPs which are semi-automatic rifles, P-A-Ps.

 6        Q.   Did you have any equipment -- excuse me, any ammunition in the

 7     truck?

 8        A.   Yes, I think there was some ammunition.  It all took place so

 9     fast.  The patrol arrived immediately.  We had no time to do anything.

10     Later we tried to guess what there was.  We hadn't time to have a look

11     inside, but I assumed there were these PAPs and these 7.62 -millimetre

12     weapons, the so-called Dobosar weapons.

13        Q.   Just give me an estimate of how many bullets were in that truck?

14        A.   I can't tell you exactly because I don't even know how many cases

15     there were, let alone the number of rounds.  I couldn't give you a

16     precise number.

17        Q.   Now, do you accept the police record of this incident suggests

18     that in that truck the police found two mortars; four boxes with four

19     semi-automatic weapons; seven semi-automatic guns; four wooden boxes with

20     3.600, 7.9-millimetre bullets; eight boxes with 8.962 -- correction

21     8.960, 7.62-millimetre bullets; as well as two M53 machine-guns; other

22     technical documentation relating to that stash; and cleaning equipment.

23     Do you accept that?

24        A.   Well, I accept it, but not the mortars.  You understand, they

25     took that away.  We didn't have time to see exactly what there was.  I

Page 29915

 1     accept all that.  But I didn't hear anything about there being mortars

 2     amongst the weapons.

 3        Q.   You were in the -- you were in that truck with Ignjatije Trapara;

 4     is that right?

 5        A.   Sorry?

 6        Q.   In the truck when it was stopped, you were with

 7     Ignjatije Trapara?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   He was taken away for questioning; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   As a result of that questioning, a further search was taken

12     out -- was carried out at a place called the Aleksapromet company;

13     correct?

14        A.   I don't know anything about Aleksapromet.  I'm not familiar with

15     that.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we call up, please, 1D08653.

17        Q.   At the top of this document you can see this is from the

18     Ministry of Internal Affairs from the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina and it is a bulletin of daily events for the 16th of October,

20     1991.  If we go to the next page -- you agree with that, Mr. Trapara?

21        A.   Yes, it's a bulletin and I do agree with that.

22        Q.   If we go to the next page can we see a description of the

23     incident.

24             If we go to the next page in English the quantities of ammunition

25     found in the truck are described in detail.  And it goes on to relate

Page 29916

 1     that:

 2             "After the questioning of Ignjatije Trapara, a further search was

 3     taken out at -- took place at the Aleksapromet company ..."

 4             That's now visible on the English language.  Do you see the

 5     relevant paragraph in the original?  It's about halfway down that page,

 6     Mr. Trapara.

 7        A.   I see it says PP Aleksapromet.  I can see that.

 8        Q.   At that location the employees of CSB, SUP Sarajevo, and

 9     SJB Novo Sarajevo found eight boxes with ten semi-automatic guns; one box

10     with nine semi-automatic guns; one box with two machine guns.  Skip on a

11     bit, we see reference to a box with three mortars; three cleaners; three

12     optical aims; seven boxes with four mines; 22 boxes with 24.600,

13     7.62-millimetre bullets.  You see all that?

14        A.   I can see that here.

15        Q.   Later on there's a reference to a further search which was

16     carried out on a different truck.  This is on the next -- this is on the

17     same page in English.  And we see that in the search of that truck the

18     police found 78.400, 7.62-millimetre bullets and 77.425, 7.9 -millimetre

19     bullets.  Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And I think you'll agree that these are vast quantities of

22     weapons and ammunition to be transported around Sarajevo illegally.  Do

23     you agree with that?

24        A.   Well, I didn't have this information.  This is the first time

25     I've come across this.  I don't know whether this was all included.  I

Page 29917

 1     couldn't see that night.  I didn't load it.  I didn't approach the lorry.

 2     Aleksapromet, this is something knew for me.  There was some sort of

 3     Pilicari, but as for this information about the weapons and the

 4     ammunition, well, I really didn't know about that.

 5        Q.   Are you related to Ignjatije Trapara?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What is your relationship to him?

 8        A.   He's my uncle.

 9        Q.   Now, why were you assisting him in transporting large quantities

10     of weapons and ammunition in Sarajevo on the 15th of October, 1991?

11        A.   He asked me, I went up there.  Quite simply, I wanted to do this.

12     The situation was such that our people were afraid.  As I said earlier

13     on, we had to organise ourselves.  I went up there to see if I could

14     protect myself and protect my family because this was at stake, not only

15     in that area but in the Federation and in the wider area of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina.

17        Q.   First of all, let's clarify a couple of points in your answer.

18     When you say that "our people were afraid," you're talking about the Serb

19     people?

20        A.   Yes.  In this area of responsibility that I have shown in the

21     map, 95 per cent of the people were of Serbian ethnicity and across the

22     road from where we were there was the same percentage of Bosniaks.

23        Q.   Now, these weapons and ammunition were intended for distribution

24     to the people of the Serb ethnicity; isn't that right?

25        A.   Well, probably.

Page 29918

 1        Q.   Well "probably" or "yes"?  Was there any other reason for that?

 2        A.   Well, I couldn't say yes, but probably.

 3        Q.   And just clarify one other thing.  You referred to the Federation

 4     in your answer.  Given that this was 1991, was that an error on your

 5     part?

 6        A.   Yes, probably.  Yes, I made a mistake.  There was no Federation

 7     at the time.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P5977, Your Honours.

13             MR. GAYNOR:

14        Q.   I'd like to turn now to the question of snipers.  In your

15     statement at paragraph 16 you say:

16             "In my unit there were no trained professional sharpshooters."

17             You were in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, weren't you?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, do you accept that within the

20     1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade there were considerable quantities of

21     sniper weapons and optical equipment and silencers for sniper rifles?

22     I'm not referring to a document which is on the screen at the moment.

23     I'm simply asking you:  Do you accept that contention?

24        A.   I do not.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, P05930.

Page 29919

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be provided with

 2     a hard copy of his statement in Serbian?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have that with you, Mr. Trapara?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the document, this one on

 5     the screen?  What --

 6             MR. GAYNOR:

 7        Q.   Do you have a copy of your statement with you?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Your statement, would you like to have that in hard

 9     copy?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the statement, I do.  I have

11     the statement.

12             MR. GAYNOR:

13        Q.   You can turn to paragraph 16 if you wish.  In any event,

14     Mr. Trapara, on the screen in front of you we can see a document from the

15     1st Smbr to the SRK command.  Do you see it?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   If -- as you can see in this document, the 1st Smbr is informing

18     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps that it's in possession of rifles with

19     optical sights, semi-automatic rifles with optical sights, machine-guns

20     with optical sights, other sniper rifles, passive infrared sights, sniper

21     rifle silencers, and do you see all that?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   So you accept that your brigade did have at the time of this

24     document all that equipment?

25        A.   What I stated just a while ago that I did not agree.  I said that

Page 29920

 1     because I was not aware of that.  I'm talking about my infantry company,

 2     mine, and my neighbourhood --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  It is

 4     impossible to interpret accurately.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Trapara, you're speaking so fast that the

 6     interpreters are having difficulty --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I apologise.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, previous answer,

 9     please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I stated a while ago that I

11     didn't agree with the Prosecutor, I did not have that document in front

12     of me.  I was only sharing the information that I had about my infantry

13     company and the company next to mine.  I'm sure that we did not have this

14     type of weaponry.

15             MR. GAYNOR:

16        Q.   Now, you see after the list of sniper rifles, et cetera, the

17     brigade command is telling the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command:

18             "As we don't have a special sniper unit, we have issued the

19     sniper rifles to combatants in the subordinated units.

20             "They are active when the combatants are in position."

21             So you accept that the brigade command issued sniper rifles to

22     its subordinated units and that those subordinated units used them?

23        A.   That's what it says here in this document, but I didn't know

24     about that.  I was not aware of that.  Possibly that was the case because

25     my unit was on a slope of the Manojlo hilltop and we did not need any of

Page 29921

 1     those.

 2        Q.   Now, I want to turn to a separate issue.  At paragraph 17 of your

 3     statement in the first sentence, you say:

 4             "Humanitarian relief to the Muslim part of the city passed

 5     through my zone of responsibility.  My unit always let such humanitarian

 6     relief pass through."

 7             Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, you issued orders to your unit; is that right?  You can put

10     down your statement.  This is a separate matter.  Did your unit always

11     obey your orders?

12        A.   As far as I know, they did.

13        Q.   Did you receive your instructions from the brigade command?

14        A.   I did not receive any order from the brigade command ever.  I

15     received orders from the battalion command always.

16        Q.   And where did the battalion command receive its orders?

17        A.   Probably from a superior command, i.e., from the brigade command.

18        Q.   And from whom did the brigade command receive its orders?

19        A.   Well, according to the military hierarchy, it would be normal for

20     the brigade command to receive its orders from the corps command.

21        Q.   And the corps command in turn received its orders from the

22     Main Staff; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And the Main Staff received its orders from the president;

25     correct?

Page 29922

 1        A.   Not necessarily.  Not always.

 2        Q.   Well, when would it not receive its directions from the

 3     president?

 4        A.   In cases of fierce attacks from the enemy side.

 5        Q.   But the general hierarchy was that the president was over the

 6     Main Staff; we can agree with that?

 7        A.   Well, the president, yes.

 8        Q.   Right.  Now, I'm going to show you a couple of documents.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we call up, please, P3042.

10        Q.   You can see from this document it's dated the

11     11th of April, 1994.  It's from the Main Staff of the VRS and it's

12     addressed to the president of the Republika Srpska, the chief of the

13     Main Staff of the Yugoslav Army, and to the commands of all of the corps,

14     including the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  And if we can turn, please, to

15     the last page of this document, and if we look at the final paragraph

16     mainly to blow it up.  It's a little difficult for you to read,

17     Mr. Trapara.  We'll blow it up for you.

18        A.   I can't see anything.  It's very pale.  I can't see the letters.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And the document has to be rotated.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it's the other way

21     around.

22             MR. GAYNOR:

23        Q.   Are you able to read the final paragraph?  If you're not, I will

24     read it to you.  This document is in evidence already.

25        A.   No.  Believe me, I can't see a thing.  It's upside down, it's

Page 29923

 1     blurred.

 2        Q.   I'll read it to you.  It says:

 3             "Following the decision of the Supreme Command of the armed

 4     forces of the RS, all relations between the Main Staff of the

 5     Army of Republika Srpska with the UN forces commands should be suspended.

 6     The restriction of movement for the teams and convoys of UNPROFOR and the

 7     humanitarian organisations is still in force."

 8             And that was issued by General Milovanovic.  Do you agree that's

 9     what it says?

10        A.   At the bottom I can see Manojlo Milovanovic's name typed up.  I

11     can't see a signature, no stamp.  It doesn't say in his own hand.

12     There's no stamp.  There's no signature.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we ask Mr. Gaynor to provide

14     us information about the date when this document was drafted.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  This document is dated on the front page,

16     11th of April, 1994.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I'm not actually asking you about the

18     authenticity of this document.  What I'm asking you about is the content

19     of the final sentence in it, and that is that there is a restriction on

20     movement of teams and convoys of UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations

21     in force at the date of this document; isn't that right?

22        A.   That's what I see here.  That's what it's written.  However, I

23     never applied this to be very specific, this ban I mean.

24        Q.   You acted in direct contravention of orders from the corps

25     command?

Page 29924

 1        A.   When it comes to this order, I have to say that I could have

 2     learned about it through the battalion command.  That was the only way

 3     for me to be aware of this order, but I never received this order from

 4     the battalion commander, nor was I aware of it.

 5        Q.   We'll have a look at another order, P879.  This one that's coming

 6     up is dated almost exactly 11 months later; that's the 11th of March,

 7     1995.  You'll see from the header of this document, Mr. Trapara, that

 8     it's issued by the Main Staff of the VRS and it is addressed to the

 9     president of the Republika Srpska as well as to the commands of all of

10     the corps, including the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command.  Do you agree

11     with that?

12        A.   This is what it says here.

13        Q.   Now, if we could go to page 3 in the English, please, and under

14     paragraph 6(II) in the B/C/S.  I believe it is page 2 in the B/C/S.  Now,

15     in that subparagraph which is headed "situation in the territory," could

16     you read out the final sentence, please.  Read it out loud.

17        A.    "Due to -- due to sniper fire and the death of two girls, until

18     further notice there is a ban on the movement of humanitarian

19     organisations and convoys."

20        Q.   Now, you'll accept that this order was directed at the SRK

21     command?

22        A.   That's what it says in the document.

23        Q.   Now I -- you were obliged to follow the orders given down the

24     chain of command from the corps command to your unit, weren't you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29925

 1        Q.   This was a strict order to prohibit any movement of humanitarian

 2     organisations and convoys, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Well, I must say something here with regard to that statement of

 4     yours.  The only street, Bjelopoljska Street, which passed through

 5     Lukavac via Vrace went in the direction of Grbavica.  As I stated in my

 6     statement, a convoy was stopped by the military police and seven rifles

 7     were found in a lorry carrying flour.  This was done by the police, but

 8     that police was on the strength of the corps.  I, as a company commander,

 9     did not have a military police unit.  It was impossible for me to have

10     it.  I stated that water went straight through the zone of responsibility

11     beneath my lines and below the tunnel in Sarajevo.  It never happened

12     that there was a shortage of water.  Aneks, Hrasno and

13     Sakino [phoen] Naselje were supplied with water all throughout the war.

14     I did not have much influence on convoys.

15        Q.   But do you accept that there was a policy at the very highest

16     levels of the Bosnian Serb army and at the very highest level of the

17     Bosnian Serb political structures to deliberately obstruct the delivery

18     of humanitarian assistance?

19        A.   At that time I was a young man.  I was a company commander.  I

20     was a local guy.  People knew me.  And I did not have access to

21     information at such a high level.  This was a very high level for me.

22        Q.   I'll bring you to one final document before we finish, that's

23     P3042 -- sorry, pardon me, correction.  Could I please have P2479.  This

24     document is in English, as you can see.  It's to Annan at the

25     United Nations in New York.  It's from Akashi at UNPROFOR in Sarajevo,

Page 29926

 1     dated the 14th of March, 1995.  If we can go now to page 3 in the

 2     English.  I will read out just two extracts from this, and the first

 3     extract is the top of paragraph 6.  There it says:

 4             "On the subject of freedom of movement, particularly with regard

 5     to the delivery of humanitarian assistance, General Mladic was very

 6     obstructive.  He insisted on absolute parity between what is delivered to

 7     the Bosnian Serbs and what is delivered to the enclaves."

 8             Now, when we move a little further down in this document it says:

 9             "Karadzic, calling Abdic 'an old friend' and 'an intelligent man'

10     said that he (Karadzic) could not let Abdic down by allowing aid to pass

11     through Banja Luka, thereby depriving Abdic of his source of aid."

12             And this discussion arises in the context of UNPROFOR insisting

13     on unimpeded access for humanitarian supplies.  So on the basis of what

14     you've -- we've seen so far, do you accept that there was, indeed, a

15     policy at the highest level of the Bosnian Serb army and at the highest

16     level of the Bosnian Serb political organs to deliberately obstruct the

17     delivery of humanitarian assistance?

18        A.   I didn't know anything about that at the time.  I know Mr. Abdic

19     well, but only from the media like everybody else.  I didn't know that

20     things had to be done in the way as is described here.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Trapara.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  No further questions.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly.  I would like to call

Page 29927

 1     up D105 in e-court.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] While we are waiting, Mr. Trapara, could you

 4     please tell the Trial Chamber - and the Trial Chamber is not aware of our

 5     family names - can you tell what is the ethnicity of my old friend Abdic?

 6        A.   Fikret Abdic is a Bosniak or was a Bosniak, rather.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please look at that decision that I issued

 8     on the 7th of May, 1993.

 9        A.   I'm looking at it.

10        Q.   Does it conform or is it contrary to what you have been told here

11     about obstructions to the flow of humanitarian aid?

12        A.   This decision is contrary to what has just been said here.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And now can we take a look at D690.  Could we zoom in

14     on the document.  Could I ask you to read the first paragraph if you can.

15        A.   Yes, I can:

16             "In order to ensure the normal functioning of humanitarian

17     organisations, the unobstructed passage of all humanitarian aid convoys

18     travelling by road routes and corridors of Republika Srpska organised by

19     the UNHCR, the International Committee of the Red Cross,

20     Medecins Sans Frontieres, Handicap International, the World Health

21     Organisation, the International Rescue Committee."

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is this in keeping with what the Prosecutor put to

23     you?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Trapara.  I have no further questions for you and

Page 29928

 1     I would like to thank you for having come here to provide your evidence.

 2        A.   You're welcome.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Trapara.  On

 4     behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

 5     it.  Now you are free to go.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But we'll rise all together.

 8             We'll have a break now, given the time.  So we'll break for

 9     45 minutes and resume at ten past 1.00.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.  Would you take the solemn

15     declaration, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN TUSEVLJAK

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If you could take a seat, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

24                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Tusevljak.

Page 29929

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D6084 on the screen,

 2     please.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, did you give a statement to the Defence team and

 5     is this statement before you right now?

 6        A.   Well, this is in English.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the Serbian version,

 8     please?  Since the English version has been signed, could the witness be

 9     shown his signature.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   But have you seen this statement in the Serbian language too?

12        A.   Yes, I have.

13        Q.   Is this your signature?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   Thank you.  The Serbian version hasn't been signed because two

16     paragraphs were added.  But the number is 1D5651.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Does the statement accurately reflect what you had to say?

19        A.   Yes, on the whole, yes.

20        Q.   If I put the same questions to you in the courtroom here today in

21     real time, would the answers you provided be the same?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this package

25     into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

Page 29930

 1             JUDGE KWON:  How many pieces of associated exhibits are you

 2     tendering, Mr. Karadzic?

 3             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, there are six associated

 5     exhibits.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  With respect to the first two documents, i.e.,

 7     1D6090 and 6091, which are a list of members of certain unit, what

 8     witness stated was merely that some Bosnian Muslims voluntarily joined

 9     the VRS.  And then without further it's very difficult to follow in what

10     context it was relevant or what part of the document is relevant.  So if

11     the Prosecution -- the Defence is minded to tender that document, I would

12     like Mr. Karadzic to deal with it with the witness live.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think we should do that and

14     it won't take very long.  If we can call up the first one --

15             JUDGE KWON:  No, later on.

16             I will ask whether there's any other objections with respect to

17     the statement and the exhibits.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Apart from those two you've just mentioned,

19     Your Honour, no.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then they will be admitted.

21             Shall we give the number now.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The statement 65 ter number

23     1D06084 will be Exhibit D2391; and 65 ter number 1D08547 will be

24     Exhibit D2392; 65 ter number 1D08548 will be Exhibit D2393;

25     65 ter number 1D08549 will be Exhibit D2394; and 65 ter number 1D08550

Page 29931

 1     will be Exhibit D2395.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

 5             I would now like to read out the summary of Mr. Tusevljak's

 6     testimony in English.

 7             [In English] Slobodan Tusevljak lived on Zagorska Street in

 8     Novo Sarajevo before the war broke out.  During the war he was a platoon

 9     commander of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.

10             Prior to the war, the Serbs who lived on the street were in good

11     terms with their Muslim and Croatian neighbours.  They jointly organised

12     mixed neighbourhood watches without any weapons in order to prevent

13     incidents.  In January or February 1992 armed Muslims set up barricades

14     at the end of his street and were checking people.

15             Once these barricades were set up, movement in the city was

16     difficult and he could not get to his work-place out of fear for his

17     personal safety.  His boss, a Muslim, informed him that if he did not

18     show up to work he would be fired and eventually he was, despite

19     explaining the reasons for his impossibility.

20             Slobodan Tusevljak had no weapons before or in May 1992, when

21     Muslims fired at his houses -- at their houses.  The following morning he

22     sent his family away to Tilava and he stayed behind with some neighbours

23     so that they could organise themselves and protect their houses.  On this

24     occasion a man brought small arms and distributed them among the group.

25             Before the Muslim attack on June the 8th, 1992, his unit had

Page 29932

 1     organised themselves to search houses and found about 30 men.

 2     Colonel Dragomir Milosevic gave them the option of going in the depth of

 3     the Serb territory or crossing over the Muslim part -- over to the Muslim

 4     part of the city, explaining that they could not stay there since it was

 5     a war zone.  The men were thankful for that option and decided to go to

 6     the part of the city under Muslim control.

 7             On June the 8th, 1992, Muslims attacked their positions, pushing

 8     them back some 200-250 metres.  They first attacked with mortars and then

 9     with the small arms.  His unit had five or six casualties and about ten

10     wounded.  From the positions to which they had retreated they watched the

11     Muslim forces setting fire on their houses.

12             After this attack in the line of disengagement remained -- the

13     line of disengagement, the confrontation line remained unchanged until

14     the end of the war.  This line was only 10 metres wide in some places --

15     10 metres distance from each other.  Since the day -- that day, his unit

16     only conducted defensive operations because Muslim forces were constantly

17     attacking their positions which were of vital strategic importance,

18     because otherwise Muslim forces would have had control over the

19     Lukavica-Pale communication route, being able to cut off Grbavica and

20     massacre the civilian population.  Muslim forces attacked his zone of

21     responsibility on a daily basis with snipers and mortars and they set

22     fire to civilian houses in the depth of their territory using incendiary

23     fire grenades, killing a large number of women and children.

24             On June the 12th, 1992, Muslim forces launched another attack

25     firing 120-millimetre-calibre mortar mounted on moving railroad cars on

Page 29933

 1     the railroad tracks in the Pofalici area.

 2             When the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was formed, his unit became the

 3     1st Platoon of the 4th Company of the 2nd Battalion of the

 4     1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, holding the same positions as before

 5     until the end of the war.  They only had one 60-millimetre-calibre

 6     mortar, but no mortar bombs.  The Muslim units opposed to them belonged

 7     to 101st Mountain Brigade of the 1st Corps of BH army.  His unit was

 8     heavily outnumbered; it was comprised of 42 men and at the beginning of

 9     the war and was down to 20 men by the end.

10             Around September 1994 Slobodan Tusevljak was so worn out that he

11     decided to hand-over the duty of platoon commander and join, as a common

12     soldier, a neighbouring platoon where attacks were much less intense.

13             They had knowledge that the units of the 1st Corps of BH army had

14     positions in civilian zones and in the depth of their territory.

15             His unit, Mr. Tusevljak's unit, was careful not to target

16     civilian objects and he never allowed anyone to fire at the city or at

17     civilian targets.  Never he, or any other members of his unit or their

18     subordinated or superior commands, intended to cause civilian casualties

19     or terrorise civilians in the territory under Muslim control or attack

20     means of public transportation such as trams or buses.  They never

21     received or issued any verbal or written orders to that effect.  On the

22     contrary, orders and instructions from superior commands were to open

23     fire exclusively at the enemy forces, and only when their positions were

24     under attack and to defend their lives and the line of defence.  If an

25     enemy soldier was captured, he would be handed over to the company

Page 29934

 1     command.

 2             With regard to sniping incidents -- to sniping incident in

 3     Ivana Krndelja Street on 3rd of September, 1993, Slobodan Tusevljak

 4     states that no line of sight existed between their positions and the

 5     scene of the alleged incident.

 6             With regard to sniping incident in Miljenka Cvitkovica Street in

 7     the Cengic Vila area on 22nd of July, 1994, Slobodan Tusevljak states

 8     that no line of sight existed between their positions and the scene.

 9     Moreover, the distance between that spot and their positions was over

10     1.200 metres and they had no weapons with that kind of range or snipers

11     in the rank of his unit.  Due to the constant attack on Ozrenska Street

12     and Grbavica by Muslim snipers positioned behind Muslim lines on

13     Asimovo Brdo, by the end of 1993 a trained sniper was sent to his unit.

14     His target was in the opposite direction of the city.  This sniper was

15     killed two days later and after this no more snipers arrived in his unit.

16             [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at 1D6090.  Could we

17     have that document on the screen, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   While waiting for it to appear, Mr. Tusevljak, what was the

20     ethnic composition of your settlement?

21        A.   Well, it was mixed.  There was Serbs, there were Muslims, there

22     were Croats.  The majority consisted of Serbs, but there were also

23     Muslims and Croats.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell the Chamber what happened to the

25     non-Serb population and what happened to the Serbs as well?  What

Page 29935

 1     happened when it came to remaining there or leaving?

 2        A.   Some people left their homes immediately after the barricades had

 3     been set up at night.  They left, they went to town.  Some remained.

 4     That was the situation.  People, quite simply, left; and those who

 5     remained, remained in their houses until the fighting started.

 6        Q.   Were the Serbs duty-bound to respond to the call-up?

 7        A.   Yes.  It was said that we had to be mobilised, that we had to

 8     join up, to form some sort of an army, and so on and so forth.

 9        Q.   Did this also concern non-Serbs?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We wanted to show this document, this list.  This is

12     your platoon from the 4th Company; isn't that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is there a list of weapons that your platoon had included in this

15     list?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What does this mean, an automatic rifle or a semi-automatic

18     rifle?

19        A.   Yes, AP means automatic rifle, PAP means semi-automatic rifle.

20        Q.   Thank you.  What's the name of this person under number 11?  You

21     don't have to read it.

22        A.   Himzo.

23        Q.   You don't have to tell us his name.  What's his ethnicity?

24        A.   Muslim.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Are there any Croats?

Page 29936

 1        A.   Yes.  Under number 5, let me just have a look, number 16, then

 2     there is also number 20.  There were others probably or I'm sure of that,

 3     in fact, but this list isn't quite complete, the list of these platoon

 4     members.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Were their families in the same settlement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8        A.   They were in the settlement or in the rear Lukavica-Tilava.  They

 9     went there to -- so as not to be on the front line.

10        Q.   Was this document --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this document been admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have English translation for this?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not yet.  I do apologise.  We don't

14     have a translation yet, but we're concerned with the names and the names

15     of rifles.  Our only purpose was to see what sort of weapons the platoon

16     had.  That was our sole intention.  So the translation would not be any

17     different from the list that we have here.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Now, Mr. Tusevljak, could you kindly read out the

19     first line aloud.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "A list of the weapons of the

21     1st Platoon of the 4th Company."

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  And what does the letter on the right

23     side at number 5 mean "Zbrojovka-Brno"?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's the Croat who received

25     an automatic rifle.  He wanted a high-calibre weapon, so he got a

Page 29937

 1     "Zrbojovka-Brno" which is an old Czech weapon, something similar to a

 2     machine-gun.  It's a Czech-made weapon.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Edgerton?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I take it we do not need the translation for this at

 6     the moment.  Yes, we'll admit it in full.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2396.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I said we'll admit it in full.  Thank you.

 9             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 6091 -- 1D6091,

12     please.  Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, could you please mark this document or tell us

15     whether there are Muslims and Croats included here and under which

16     numbers.  You don't have to read out the names.

17        A.   Number 6.

18        Q.   And number 5?

19        A.   I apologise.  I skipped number 5.  Number 5, number 6.

20        Q.   What is the ethnicity of the person under 5?

21        A.   Muslim, it's a Muslim under 5.

22        Q.   He was wounded, wasn't he?

23        A.   Yes.  Number 6 is a Croat.

24        Q.   Very well.  Could we scroll up.  Have a look to see if there are

25     any others.

Page 29938

 1        A.   Well, probably but this list isn't a complete one either.

 2        Q.   There are some to the right, some names to the right?

 3        A.   Yes, I can see that.  Perhaps we could scroll down a bit to see

 4     the ones below.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Could we scroll down a little more.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Could we see the next page.  Who was under number 90?

 8        A.   Number 90, a Muslim.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And number 98?

10        A.   Number 98, he is a Croat, too.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   96 is also a Croat, I believe.

13        Q.   Very well.  What about number 73?

14        A.   He's also a Croat.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly have a look at the

17     next page.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   What is the ethnicity of the last person listed?

20        A.   127?

21        Q.   No.  Beneath that.

22        A.   A Croat.  He turned up a little later so his name was added

23     rapidly.

24        Q.   What about 116, could that be a Serb?

25        A.   Well, I'm not sure.  I don't know this person.

Page 29939

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could we just have a look at the first page so that

 2     you can identify the nature of this list.  Could you read out the first

 3     line.  What is this list?

 4        A.   This is a list of combatants from the 4th Company of the

 5     2nd Battalion.  The date is the 18th of February, 1994.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this please be admitted into

 8     evidence.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  That's fine.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2397, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  At this stage we have

14     no further questions for this witness.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Tusevljak, as you noted, your evidence in chief was admitted

17     in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you'll be cross-examined

18     by the member of the Prosecution.  Do you understand that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

23        Q.   Hello again, Mr. Tusevljak.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   And thank you for meeting with me yesterday.

Page 29940

 1        A.   Thank you.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask you eventually some questions about some of the

 3     things we spoke about yesterday, but right now I'd just like to pick up

 4     on a couple of answers you've given to Dr. Karadzic.  When you mentioned

 5     barricades in your first answers, what barricades were you talking about?

 6        A.   Well, those were Muslim barricades at the end of our street.  The

 7     barricades were erected on their side where they had a majority, from our

 8     street in the direction of the city.  And then in January and February

 9     they controlled who was passing by.  They were armed.  So us men did not

10     dare go in the direction of the city.  We didn't go to work.  We would

11     send our wives to go and buy something because a majority of the stores

12     and shops were in the city.

13        Q.   So, Mr. Tusevljak, I'd just like to try and place this in time a

14     little bit more specifically.  Are you sure you're talking about

15     something in January or February, or are you talking about the barricades

16     that were erected throughout Sarajevo on March 1st and 2nd after the

17     referendum?

18        A.   No, no.  The barricades were erected before that.  I knew those

19     men very well.  They were criminals.  That area below our street, I knew

20     a guy whose nickname was Rus.  In any case, most of them were criminals.

21     They erected the barricades, and they stopped passers-by and obviously

22     they had weapons.  They were armed.

23        Q.   So you're talking about a very localised incident then?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Right below my street.

25        Q.   All right.  The other question I want to ask you -- well, I'll

Page 29941

 1     put it this way.  Dr. Karadzic asked you whether Serbs were duty-bound to

 2     respond to the call-up.  And what call-up did you understand Dr. Karadzic

 3     to be referring to?

 4        A.   When the war started we had to organise ourselves.  To put it

 5     simply, us people wanted to organise ourselves.  We wanted people to

 6     respond to a mobilisation call and join a Serbian army that would be

 7     there to defend us, to defend ourselves.

 8        Q.   So who made the call-up?

 9        A.   Well, people organised themselves.  That's how things were in my

10     street.  The guys set up a company command and they selected the rest of

11     us.  We were going to be combatants.  They wanted us to organise

12     ourselves.  I suppose that those guys had been in the military before.  I

13     don't know.  They just invited us to organise ourselves, to set up units

14     in order to be able to defend ourselves because down in the city units

15     had already been organised.  We saw it on TV.  We saw the

16     Patriotic League and all of the other units.  We saw the reserve

17     police --

18        Q.   Who -- who invited you to organise ourselves?

19        A.   My neighbours who were perhaps up there.  They represented

20     somebody from the local commune.  They were activists.

21        Q.   Would that be somebody from the Serb local commune or somebody

22     from the Muslim local commune?

23        A.   It was a mixed local commune.  I was one of the activists in that

24     mixed local commune; however, when the first barricades were erected we

25     divided.  Us Serbs lived up and the others lived below.  Those people had

Page 29942

 1     worked with me before.  The Serbs remained on one side, Muslim stayed on

 2     the other side.  I knew people who had been activists before and worked

 3     in the local commune on various issues.

 4        Q.   And just to go back to the question I asked you in a more

 5     detailed way, who in particular invited you to organise yourselves?  Can

 6     you give us a name?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know.  There was a man in the company,

 8     Vito Kapuran.  He was also an activist in the local commune.  I suppose

 9     that they organised themselves in Lukavica and they invited us to do the

10     same, to organise ourselves, to be provided with weapons if necessary to

11     be able to defend our lives, to defend our homes, that is.  I remember

12     him.

13        Q.   And that would have been through the Crisis Staffs at that time,

14     wouldn't it have?

15        A.   Yes, I suppose.  As I've told you, I was at home.  I had young

16     children so I did not get engaged too much.  I suppose that there was a

17     Crisis Staff in Lukavica I suppose.

18        Q.   All right.  And then one more thing that Dr. Karadzic went

19     through, if we could see D2396 again, please.  It's the first document

20     that he showed you.  I'd like just to have another quick look at this

21     document and perhaps you can tell us about a couple of the other weapons

22     that are set out here on this list so that we know what your platoon had.

23     I see a number 9, a number 21, and if we could go over to the next page,

24     please -- oh, the next page looks like it might be a duplicate of the

25     first page.  So if we can go back.  So number 9 and 21 on the first page

Page 29943

 1     are people who have M84 weapons.  Could you tell us what those are?

 2        A.   It's a machine-gun, M84.  It's a machine-gun.  It's a new model

 3     different from what it used to be before.  It's an infantry weapon.  I

 4     suppose that each platoon had one or two such pieces.

 5        Q.   And what calibre of bullets did they use?

 6        A.   7.62, I think.  There may be a slight difference.  I don't

 7     remember exactly, but I believe that I'm right.

 8        Q.   All right.  How about we just go down the list a minute to number

 9     23.  Somebody there has got an M53.  What's that?

10        A.   It's a PM, it's another machine-gun.  What I'm reading here is

11     PM.  It's a machine-gun, M53, an old light machine-gun also known as

12     Sarac, and the calibre of its bullet is 7.9.  It's an old piece of

13     weaponry.

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  We can remove that document and move on then.

15     Now yesterday you confirmed to me - as Dr. Karadzic has just said - you

16     were platoon commander for the 1st Platoon of the 4th Company of the

17     2nd Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.  Now, your brigade

18     commander at that time was Veljko Stojanovic?

19        A.   He was the battalion commander, not the brigade commander.

20        Q.   Who was the commander of the brigade?

21        A.   I don't remember, believe me.  Perhaps it was Milosevic, but I'm

22     not sure.  I don't know much about any of the superior commands.  I don't

23     know who the commanders were at the time.

24        Q.   And how many companies were in your battalion?

25        A.   I believe that there were five companies.

Page 29944

 1        Q.   And who was your battalion commander?

 2        A.   There were several.  First it was Stojanovic, then he got killed,

 3     and the last one was Aco Petrovic.  I don't remember of those who were in

 4     between.  People got killed or were redeployed or reappointed.

 5        Q.   And you also told me yesterday the names of some of your company

 6     commanders, including Savo Vukovic, Rajko Ciro, Dusan Zorovac,

 7     Sinisa Jeremic, a relative of yours, Zeljko Tusevljak, and Dusan

 8     Loncaric.

 9        A.   Zeljko, yes.

10        Q.   Your battalion command was on Banja Lucka Street in Grbavica and

11     your company command headquarters was on Ozrenska Street.

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes, you're right.

13        Q.   Each company had its own ammunition storage; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And who supplied it?

16        A.   I don't know.  Our superior command.  I don't have a clue.

17     Weapons came from a higher instance, from the brigade perhaps.  I don't

18     know.  We were issued with the weapons and ammunition from the company

19     commander from our -- for our platoon.  How he obtained weapons, I don't

20     know, perhaps from the brigade, from the brigade command.

21        Q.   How did you get your orders?

22        A.   Verbally, from the company commander.  He would give orders to me

23     as the platoon commander.  He told me what our tasks and duties would be

24     for every given day.

25        Q.   So that means you saw him every day to get those orders; is that

Page 29945

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, just to go on to another section of your statement, you said

 4     at paragraph 7 that you personally had no weapons until May of 1992, and

 5     yesterday you told me that in May you received a 7.62-calibre automatic

 6     rifle.

 7        A.   I forgot to tell you yesterday that I was first issued with a

 8     semi-automatic weapon, then an automatic weapon.  In May I got the

 9     semi-automatic and then it was replaced by the automatic rifle.  You have

10     to know that we did not have that many pieces.  Vito Kapuran was the

11     commander of the platoon before me.  I was just a foot soldier at that

12     time.  But he was wounded sometime in the summer and then I was appointed

13     commander either in June or July of that year, of 1992 I mean.

14        Q.   All right.  Just to go back to what I was asking you about.  This

15     semi-automatic weapon you said yesterday that you got it from the

16     command.  What command were you talking about?

17        A.   The 4th Company.  That command was set up in a house and that was

18     the command for that area, the command of that company.  They invited me

19     to come up there, to issue me with a weapon, and first they gave me a

20     semi-automatic weapon.  That was in Ozrenska beyond the defence lines.

21     This is where I was issued with my first piece of weaponry.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that he was

23     invited to be issued with a weapon because he had a military obligation

24     and that was never recorded on the transcript.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 29946

 1        Q.   Can you confirm, Mr. Tusevljak, that that's what you said?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And you also said that your Serbian neighbours had

 4     small arms.  What did you mean by "small arms"?

 5        A.   Those were semi-automatic and automatic rifles and even

 6     M48 rifles.  Those were old rifles.  That would be that.

 7        Q.   And where did they get them?

 8        A.   They got them -- I don't know how they got them.  It was not a

 9     well-known and well advertised fact.  They were hiding that.  I believe

10     that they got them in February because fire came from the city and they

11     got them.  I don't know how because I did not have any.

12        Q.   And what about this man you referred to in your statement

13     referred to as Vito who got additional small arms.  What did he bring?

14        A.   He -- I was told that Vito came to the command where the company

15     command was set up and he brought light weaponry, rifles, both

16     semi-automatic and automatic rifles and grenades.  I don't know who Vito

17     was.  I only know that I was told that his name was Vito, some Vito.

18        Q.   So this information is not information that you personally --

19     that you came upon that you saw; it's second-hand information?

20        A.   Yes.  We were told to come up there because he had brought

21     weaponry.  Since we had our military obligation, we were supposed to be

22     issued with those weapons so as to be able to organise ourselves.  That's

23     why we were invited to go up there, to be issued with weapons.

24        Q.   And when in May did this happen, do you remember?

25        A.   I don't understand.  When you say when did this happen, what do

Page 29947

 1     you mean?  What is this?

 2        Q.   When in the month of May did you get this invitation that you've

 3     just been speaking about?  When in May did you get the invitation?

 4        A.   In early May, I believe, at the beginning of May or thereabouts.

 5     That's when my religious holiday is.  It was after my religious holiday.

 6     It was either on the 8th, 9th, or the 10th, thereabouts.

 7        Q.   So at this command where you went to collect your weapons, did

 8     you see anybody in uniform?

 9        A.   No, we still wore civilian clothes.  Nobody had a uniform.  There

10     was a man, the 1st Company commander, who had a camouflage uniform.  But

11     I believe that it had been made from a tent.  That's how the first

12     uniforms were obtained.

13        Q.   So when you talk about the arms that you and your neighbours

14     received, you're again talking about a very, very localised experience as

15     I understand it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 11 of your statement you said that after

18     June 8th, 1992, your unit only conducted defensive operations because

19     Muslim forces were constantly attacking your positions.  So I have a

20     couple of questions about that.  The first question is:  Do you accept

21     that these attacks were with a view to unblocking the city of Sarajevo

22     from its siege?

23        A.   Well, no.  I don't think that would be the case.  It had nowhere

24     to go from there even if they had succeeded in that because all of that

25     was a Serb territory.  The only reason may have been to interrupt the

Page 29948

 1     Pale-Lukavica road so we would not be able to function.  Further on, in

 2     depth everything else was a Serb territory, there were no Muslims there,

 3     so I don't know why they would want to even go there in the first place.

 4     There were no Muslims there, at least not in that area.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Would it be of any

 6     assistance for -- to offer the witness a hard copy of his statement if

 7     the Prosecutor is going to refer paragraphs in his statement.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat the exhibit number.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  We can offer it if it is convenient.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no objection, Ms. Edgerton?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, of course not, but I just don't have one in

12     Mr. Tusevljak's language, so I hope Dr. Karadzic has one.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can print it out.

14             Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   So, Mr. Tusevljak, you don't really know then that the attack on

17     June 8th that you referred to was part of a larger operation on two

18     simultaneous fronts from inside the city and Bosnian positions outside

19     the city, with a view to unblocking it?

20        A.   No, no, I don't know.  They launched attacks, but I did not see

21     any purpose of those attacks.  Even if they had succeeded, I don't know

22     what they would have gained, at least not in that part.  There would be

23     no communication with the rest of their territory because everything

24     beyond that -- there was Serbian territory, save for that road.  If they

25     had cut off Grbavica, Grbavica would have remained in a horseshoe and

Page 29949

 1     that's the only thing that they could have cut off, the only part of our

 2     territory in the city.  That's the way I see it.

 3        Q.   Now, just about your assertion that your unit only conducted

 4     defensive operations, I want to show you a couple of documents that

 5     relate specifically to your area.  The first one is P1478 and it's the

 6     handwritten notebook of General Mladic, and the page number in the B/C/S

 7     transcript is page -- your indulgence for a moment.  I think it's

 8     page 240 and in English it's page 241.  In English pages 241/242,

 9     actually.  Now in B/C/S can you go back to page 240.  Keep going back.  I

10     see when I was sent this information I wasn't sent the e-court numbers; I

11     was sent the actual document numbers.  The English page that you had on

12     the screen is right, page 241.  I'll move on.

13             Let's go to 65 ter number 23749.  This is an order for further

14     operations dated 9 October 1992 signed by General Galic.  And if we can

15     go over to paragraph 5.3 in both documents, please.  Now, among the

16     operations set out in this document is one that you see in paragraph 5.3

17     specifically impacts on your area.  It calls for the

18     Romanija Infantry Brigade to create conditions to take over a wider area

19     of Asimovo Brdo (Hrasno) which would - and if you can go over to the next

20     page in English, please - which would secure favourable positions on the

21     left wing and expansion of the territory in the area around Pero Kosuric

22     square.

23             Now, Mr. Tusevljak, I have a hard time understanding your

24     assertion that you only conducted defensive operations in the face of

25     this document.

Page 29950

 1        A.   On one occasion there was the intention to attack Hasim hill.  As

 2     I said, it was behind our backs.  It was behind us.  They fired on us

 3     with snipers from Asimovo hill so we couldn't operate, quite simply.  So

 4     the intention was to attack that hill and take that part of the territory

 5     but this was never done, and the situation remained such until the end of

 6     the war.  That initial position, the position they used for the first

 7     attacks, remained right until the end.  The lines were such that they

 8     were.  We were supposed to do this, but we didn't.  I don't know why.  We

 9     were never issued an order of any kind to do this.  We were supposed to

10     do this.  We should have done this for our own sake, in order to ensure

11     we were safe, but this was never done and the lines remained as they were

12     up until the end of the war.

13        Q.   Well, if we can try again to go back to General Mladic's

14     notebook, P1478.  On 27 June 1992 - and I'll read to you what he

15     said - in a meeting at Lukavica at 1550 in the afternoon, ten minutes to

16     4.00, a meeting with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps commander,

17     General Mladic noted:

18             "Operations to take Hrasno Asimovo hill elevation 648 are

19     underway, and in the 1st Romanija Brigade nice soldiers were killed and

20     11 wounded."

21             So it seems an operation like that did get underway even earlier

22     on.

23        A.   Well, I'm not aware of that.  We were at the foot of Asimovo

24     hill.  Whether they attacked or our people, I don't know.  We were at the

25     foot.  We didn't move anywhere.  But I know that no one moved.  The

Page 29951

 1     situation remained as it was.  Fire was opened, that's all.  I think I

 2     would be informed if our men had attacked but I don't think they did

 3     because something would have been moved, the lines would have been moved,

 4     but the situation remained the same.

 5        Q.   Let's go to paragraph 12 of your statement.  There you talked

 6     about Muslim forces firing mortars -- firing from mortars mounted on

 7     railway cars, on railway tracks in the Pofalici area.  And you said in

 8     your statement you responded to the attack with support from the rear.

 9     And I wonder if you can tell me how you knew that they were firing from

10     railway cars since you actually wouldn't be able to see that from your

11     positions.

12        A.   Well, most of my information was obtained from Serbs who had

13     crossed over from Muslim territory to our side.  This happened on a

14     weekly basis or on a monthly basis.  Someone would flee from down there

15     in the town and come over to our side, and then naturally they told us

16     about everything, because they lived down there and they knew about

17     everything.  Most of the information we obtained was from people who

18     continued to flee.

19        Q.   So you said you responded to the attack with support from the

20     rear.  How did you respond?

21        A.   Well, on that occasion I personally called the company commander.

22     I said that we were under attack, that we were being fired on with mortar

23     shells behind our company, in the depth.  This was at the beginning, I

24     think.  Some sort of a mortar unit had been established and I think that

25     they had 60- and 82-millimetre mortars.  He called them and they took

Page 29952

 1     action.  They tried to return fire in front of our positions, but they

 2     hit both us and them.  Later I called them again and told them that they

 3     weren't helping us because it was so close that they couldn't take action

 4     because we were being hit as well as their lines.  Our shells were

 5     hitting us as well.

 6        Q.   How often did that sort of thing happen?

 7        A.   You mean the attacks; is that right?

 8        Q.   That shells from your forces would hit you as well?

 9        A.   Whenever there was an attack of any kind, if we called up and

10     asked for mortar support, on such occasions we had to take shelter

11     because we knew that we could be hit because the lines were so close to

12     each other.  So it all depended on the attack launched by the Muslim

13     forces against our forces.  In such cases we would take shelter to the

14     extent that this was possible.  Some would remain behind in order to open

15     fire.  In order to put an end to that artillery attack whether it was

16     their attack or our attack, they probably acted in a similar way because

17     the lines were very close to each other so the artillery was not of much

18     assistance to us at all and we rarely asked for their help.

19        Q.   So let's go back to the train cars for a second or the railway

20     cars for a second.  If you only found out from people who had crossed

21     over to your side that the fire had been coming from railway cars in the

22     Pofalici area, how did you know exactly what to shoot at?

23        A.   Well, they told us where they were firing on us -- from which

24     positions they were firing on us, but we fired in front of us.  We

25     weren't interested in the mortar attacks.  Someone else was interested in

Page 29953

 1     that.  We told the command where they were opening fire from, but our

 2     mortars fired in front of us, on the infantry in front of us, on the area

 3     in front of our lines, not down there.  Down there is far away.  They

 4     couldn't target that area.

 5        Q.   Well, who was interested in the mortar attacks then?

 6        A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean who was interested in --

 7        Q.   Well, you've just said, "We weren't interested in the mortar

 8     attacks.  Someone else was interested in that."

 9        A.   Well, we would report to the company commander, tell him where

10     the mortars were firing from, and he would probably convey this to the

11     battalion commander.  He would probably provide the battalion commander

12     with that information.

13        Q.   So when we're talking about what you've written in paragraph 12

14     of your statement that Muslim forces launched an attack firing from

15     mortars on railway tracks in the depth of your territory, that's actually

16     an attack that you don't know -- you don't yourself know where it was

17     launched from.  And you don't know then what targets your forces would be

18     responding to?

19        A.   Well, look.  The attack took place on the 12th.  After the 12th,

20     the people who turned up told us where they were opening fire from.  I

21     was there in my house.  First they did all of that with mortars and then

22     the infantry attacked, but they weren't able to penetrate on that

23     occasion.  We had men who were killed and wounded, quite a lot of them on

24     that occasion.  They also took some Croats captive, and so on and so

25     forth.  I was there myself.  I know that these were 120-millimetre

Page 29954

 1     shells, and there was shrapnel.  Later when these people turned up they

 2     said where they were firing from.  They were firing on our positions from

 3     those positions --

 4        Q.   So --

 5        A.   -- that's certain.  We informed the command of this fact.

 6        Q.   So, Mr. Tusevljak --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The response hasn't been recorded

 8     correctly in the transcript, the end of the response.  It was said

 9     that -- it's been corrected now, yes, that they informed the brigade of

10     the location from which fire was being opened.

11             Isn't that correct?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue?

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   So when you said in your statement that you took care not to fire

16     at civilians, this doesn't actually sound like an example of you taking

17     care.  This is second-hand information on targets that weren't identified

18     in civilian areas, and you only heard about whether or not targets had

19     been attained after the fact.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a reference.  Which

21     paragraph is it?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  We're still talking about paragraph 12.

23        Q.   And you said in your statement -- what Dr. Karadzic is looking

24     for is where you said you were careful not to target civilian objects in

25     the zone of responsibility of the ABiH 1st Corps.  That's at paragraph

Page 29955

 1     19.  So how is that taking care, Mr. Tusevljak?  Second-hand information

 2     about targets that weren't clearly identified, and you only heard about

 3     whether or not those targeted had been attained after the fact.

 4        A.   Well, look, we didn't open fire on those positions.  We didn't

 5     have any weapons with which we could fire on Pofalici.  That was far away

 6     from our lines.  Our mortars when they provided us with support, they

 7     fired in front of us, 10 or 15 metres in front of us, directly at their

 8     lines.  They were attacking us.  We never fired on Pofalici.  My unit

 9     never did that.  We had no equipment to do this with.  We just reported

10     as to where they were firing from.  People told us that they were opening

11     fire from mortars on us from such and such positions.  But we didn't have

12     anything we could use to retaliate.  We only had infantry weapons.  We

13     fought in an area of 20, 30, or 50 metres.  It would be silly for us to

14     fire on the town when the enemy was right in front of us.  We couldn't

15     have fired on the town.  To protect the positions would have been

16     impossible.  We had these odd weapons.  It was very close.  We just

17     reported to the battalion command, the company command, on location from

18     which these mortars were opening fire.  As to whether they took any

19     measures or not --

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

21        A.   -- I do not know --

22        Q.   Let's move on then.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript does not reflect the

24     fact that the witness said we did not open fire in order to make sure

25     that our positions were not detected.

Page 29956

 1             MS. EDGERTON:

 2        Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 25 you were -- you indicated

 3     you were briefed about some sniping incidents that you referred to as F4

 4     and F10, and you said that no line of sight existed between your

 5     positions and the scene of the alleged incident.  But, Mr. Tusevljak,

 6     your company was spread along a line that ran part of the length of

 7     Ozrenska Street and you indicated that to me yesterday.

 8        A.   Yes, but it was below Ozrenska StreetOzrenska Street was the

 9     closest road but it was 150 to 200 metres below.  That's a hill.  So it

10     was beneath Ozrenska Street.  Ozrenska is further up.

11        Q.   Let's have a look at a photo from Ozrenska Street of the location

12     of sniping incident F4 among other things.  It's 65 ter number 23968.

13     So, Mr. Tusevljak, this photo of the transversal to the corner where

14     sniping incident F4 took place was taken from Ozrenska Street in the year

15     2000.  Do you see a line of sight?

16        A.   Well, I don't know where this is, but yes.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go on to 65 ter number 23967.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19     the site of the incident.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on a map.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this from the street or is it in

22     the depth?  You can't see the street --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if necessary, you can take up the

24     matter in your re-examination.  Please don't interrupt Ms. Edgerton in

25     her cross-examination.

Page 29957

 1             Please continue.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Now, this is from -- this photo is taken from the same location

 4     with a little bit of a zoom on the very same day.  And the scene --

 5     sorry?  Did you want to say something?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  I want to say that it's only now I can see where this

 7     is.  This is to the right.  This is Ozrenska Street but further down

 8     below.  My platoon was to the right, or rather, to the left, far to the

 9     left, so this can't have been --

10        Q.   And what platoon of your company held the territory to the right?

11        A.   Well, I think it was -- well, there was the 5th -- I think it was

12     the 2nd Company.  I was the 4th Company.  Now I know where this is.  But

13     it certainly wasn't from our positions.  We were far to the left, quite

14     far away.  So this isn't it.

15        Q.   So your issue then is -- or what you assert then is that from the

16     specific positions of your platoon there was no line of sight to the

17     transversal where this particular sniping incident occurred, but you also

18     agree that there's a very clear line of sight from further along

19     Ozrenska Street to either the point where the 2nd or I think you said the

20     5th Platoon was operational?

21        A.   No, the 2nd, the 2nd, not the 5th, the 2nd Company, not platoon.

22        Q.   And do you know who the commander was of the 2nd Company?

23        A.   Well, believe me I don't.  I think it was some -- well, I've

24     forgotten.  Could it have been -- well, I can't remember, believe me.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's go to sniping incident F10 and

Page 29958

 1     65 ter number 24007.  And we're going to look at a photograph from the

 2     other direction, from the incident location up to Ozrenska Street.  So

 3     the young woman -- pardon me, the young boy and the woman that you see in

 4     this picture are standing immediately adjacent to the location of this

 5     sniping incident.  Can you see the hilltop where Ozrenska Street sits in

 6     the distance?  And this photo, by the way, was also taken in the year

 7     2000.

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  I can see it somewhere up there.

 9        Q.   So let's go to 24008, which is a photograph taken from the same

10     location with a zoom, where you can see Ozrenska Street positions even

11     clearer; wouldn't you agree?

12        A.   Yes.  But again, that's not it.  I was to the right of this cafe.

13     I know this more or less, but I wasn't there believe me.  We were further

14     up in the direction of Mojmilo, in the direction of the Asimovo hill, but

15     this was farther away in the direction of Grbavica.

16        Q.   And who was there?

17        A.   Well, our battalion, that same company, the 2nd or 1st.  I don't

18     know how far the area extended.  Below us there was the 1st, 2nd, 3rd,

19     4th, we were the 4th, and then there was the 5th on Mojmilo, the 5th --

20     or the person who testified before me was from the 5th Company, then

21     there was myself and we were far away in the direction of Mojmilo.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now just with respect to this incident, sniping

23     incident F10, you also said you had no weapons with a range that would

24     enable you to hit a spot 1200 metres away.  So now we've just seen a

25     document at the outset of your cross-examination here, D2397, that shows

Page 29959

 1     that your platoon had, among other things, M84 machine-guns.  Do you know

 2     what the effective range is for an M84?

 3        A.   Yes, that machine-gun has a range, but the two machine-guns were

 4     further back in the rear and they protected us.  So one of them was in a

 5     clearing and was only used to protect that clearing, that line.  You need

 6     sights to have a line of sight.  I don't think you can hit anything from

 7     such a distance, but it was prohibited to fire on the town because I was

 8     the commander and I prohibited that.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Tusevljak --

10        A.   I had two sisters.  I had my friends and so on and so forth.

11        Q.   I just asked you a question about what the effective range is for

12     an M84.  If you could just focus on that, that would be great.

13        A.   I believe that this is the range, but you have to have optical

14     sights in order to hit something at that distance.  But we didn't have

15     that.  We just had the machine-gun as any other infantry unit.  We had a

16     machine-gun.

17        Q.   And what about an M53 that we also saw in D2396, do you know what

18     the effective range is for an M53?

19        A.   It's very similar, but it doesn't have optical sights.  It just

20     fires bursts of fire.  It can't fire an individual bullet, neither the

21     previous one nor this one.  Those are machine-guns, you know, but I

22     believe that the range is similar.

23        Q.   And then just one last question and it relates to paragraph 26 in

24     your statement.  You said at the end of 1993 a trained sniper was sent to

25     your unit whose task was to eliminate the Muslim sniper on Asimovo Brdo

Page 29960

 1     and after this no other snipers arrived in your unit.  So in that regard

 2     I'd like to -- like us to have a look at P5945.  It's a document from

 3     Vlado Lizdek, who eventually became the commander of the

 4     1st Romanija Infantry Brigade to General Galic and it's dated

 5     29 October 1993.

 6             Now, in the second-to-last paragraph on this document which you

 7     see in full on the page on the left and we have to go over to page 2 in

 8     the English document.  It's -- the first sentence is actually at the

 9     bottom of page 1.  In this document Colonel Lizdek reports to

10     General Galic that his brigade has a total of 68 sniper rifles of

11     different calibres, but he says at the bottom of the page that in the

12     earlier period a sniper group of the 1st Romanija Brigade's military

13     police platoon was active around Grbavica.  And that seems to suggest

14     something to the contrary of what you assert in paragraph 25.

15        A.   Well, listen.  The area of Grbavica, that was far from us.  It

16     had nothing whatsoever to do with my unit.  Grbavica is quite a way from

17     us.  I don't know about Grbavica, but I can talk about my company.  I can

18     tell you that we were far from Grbavica.  If you have a map you will see

19     where Grbavica is as opposed to us.  I don't know about Grbavica.  I

20     never went there.  You only went there when you had to because of the

21     snipers.  We didn't have any sharpshooters, save for that one who arrived

22     and he was killed.  He was a sharpshooter.  That was the only one.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Nothing further.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 29961

 1             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.  Very

 3     brief.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, may I ask you this:  On the

 6     3rd of September, 1993, was fire opened from Ozrenska Street on civilians

 7     in the city?

 8        A.   No, no.  As far as I know for my part no fire was opened.  There

 9     was a ban on that.  It was prohibited, no.

10        Q.   Therefore, does that also imply Ivana Krndelja Street?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  That street is below us a bit to the right.  That's

12     where my elementary school is.  I know where it is, but you couldn't see

13     it that well because there was a hill between us.  You could only see the

14     bridge at the bottom of that street.  We didn't have good visibility of

15     that street.

16        Q.   On the 22nd of July, 1994, was fire opened on civilians in

17     Miljenka Cvitkovica Street?

18        A.   No, no, again that is far.  The first one was closer and the

19     latter one is far.  I don't think so.  My platoon, my troops, didn't

20     fire.  The entire company did not open fire.  Muslims were so close that

21     we were afraid to reveal ourselves to them.  People were 20 metres away

22     from us.  We didn't dare fire at them or on the city.  It was very -- it

23     was very dangerous to reveal your positions.  We were below the

24     foundations of the houses.  We did not dare leave the houses.  We didn't

25     dare go out to see what was going on.

Page 29962

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 12 , the last sentence, can you read it,

 2     please.  Can you read it out loud.

 3        A.   12?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   "We returned fire because we received support from our rear."

 6        Q.   Is that that?  When you said "we returned fire," it was not your

 7     unit but a unit at a higher level from the rear?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, because we called them.  We told them that we were

 9     being shelled and that an infantry attack would ensue and we asked for

10     assistance.  We wanted them to shell in front of the lines at the

11     infantry that was attacking us.  We did not know where the attack came

12     from.  Subsequently we learned that it was from Pofalici and from that

13     general area.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Those units that had artillery mortar group, did they

15     have the means to observe fire?

16        A.   Yes.  Some observers did come up there and they could observe the

17     situation.  They had the means obviously.

18        Q.   I don't know what the number was, but Ms. Edgerton called up

19     Mladic's diary on Tuesday, 16 June 1992, where a meeting is described.

20     It is page 171 in the Serbian version.  The Colonel briefed the others

21     about combat.  There were no questions.  And he says they are launching

22     attacks on the Bosut facility and Ozrenska Street.  Does this tally with

23     what you know?  What does it mean when he says attacks came in waves?

24        A.   Yes, that's what their attacks were like.  An attack would last

25     for a whole day or even two days.  When they attacked, there was no

Page 29963

 1     stopping them.  It was continuous.  They had quite a lot of men.  They

 2     could take turns and, for example, that attack on the 8th lasted for two,

 3     three days, and then there was a break of one day and then they continued

 4     on the 12th.  And all the other attacks were very similar.  There was a

 5     pattern along the length of the line and they were looking for a place

 6     where to break through the line especially in my zone of responsibility.

 7     That's what they were targeting the most.

 8        Q.   My last question:  You were asked about the mobilisation

 9     call-ups.  Who was it who issued that?  Was there a representative of the

10     Ministry of Defence in the municipality?

11        A.   Yes, there was one.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, he's done it more than once now,

13     actually, probably something more like about seven times, but these are

14     completely leading questions.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely.

16             Are you through, Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  I'll give up on any

18     other questions that I may have had.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, thank you very much for having come here to

21     testify.

22             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Tusevljak.  Thank

23     you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you're free to go.  But

24     we'll rise all together.  It's very difficult to follow the order of

25     witnesses with this pace.  I take it the witness we will hear tomorrow is

Page 29964

 1     Mr. Gray?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And after him, who?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. Simic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Simic.  Thank you.

 6             The hearing is adjourned.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of

 9                           November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.