Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30416

 1                           Tuesday, 27 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Before we resume to hear

 6     the evidence of Trifunovic, there are a couple of matters to deal with on

 7     the part of the Chamber.

 8             First, the Chamber will issue an oral ruling on whether time

 9     limits should be imposed on the Prosecution's cross-examination of

10     witnesses called by the accused.

11             The Chamber recalls that on the 12th of November, 2012, following

12     a lengthy cross-examination by the Prosecution, the accused's legal

13     advisor asked the Chamber to consider imposing limits on the time spent

14     by the Prosecution on its cross-examination.  On the

15     14th of November, 2012, having heard 21 Defence witnesses, the Chamber

16     invited the Prosecution to make oral submissions in relation to the time

17     it spent on cross-examination.  In doing so, the Chamber noted that

18     overall, the Prosecution used significantly more time than the accused on

19     examination-in-chief and re-examination combined and that for the

20     majority of witnesses called by the accused, the evidence presented

21     pursuant to Rule 92 ter was extremely limited, consisting of short

22     statements, very few associated exhibits, if any, and a limited number of

23     issues discussed.  On the 15th of November, 2012, the Prosecution

24     responded in short that it has demonstrated commendable efficiency in

25     that, number one, there is not necessarily a link between the length of a

Page 30417

 1     statement or the number of associated exhibits sought for admission under

 2     Rule 92 ter and the length of cross-examination; number two, it has

 3     drastically reduced its already "relatively modest time estimates" and

 4     has ended up spending much less time than anticipated; and, number 3, it

 5     has used the same percentage as that used by the accused on

 6     cross-examination during the Prosecution's case while the accused is

 7     using practically no time when tendering evidence under Rule 92 ter.

 8             The Chamber notes that the accused did not wish to respond to the

 9     Prosecution's submission.

10             The Chamber first wishes to recall that during the Prosecution's

11     case, it started imposing systematic time limits on the accused's

12     cross-examinations from the 11th prosecution witness onwards.  The

13     Chamber has now heard 24 Defence witnesses and considers it has

14     sufficient information on the basis of which to consider whether the

15     imposition of time limits is warranted.

16             Turning now to the Prosecution's argument.  First, the Chamber

17     does not accept that there's no link between the volume of Rule 92 ter

18     evidence sought for admission and the necessary length of

19     cross-examination, nor is the Chamber satisfied that the Prosecution has

20     demonstrated efficiency in conducting cross-examination by maintaining

21     the same ratio as that used by the accused during the Prosecution's case.

22     On the contrary, there should be a correlation between the amount of

23     evidence sought for admission and the amount of time necessary to rebut

24     it.  The Rule 92 ter packages for the first ten witnesses called by the

25     Prosecution contained between two and eight days of testimony in addition

Page 30418

 1     to a substantial amount of time used for live examination and a large

 2     number of proposed associated exhibits.  In comparison, as stated

 3     earlier, for the overwhelming majority of witnesses called by the accused

 4     thus far, the Rule 92 ter packages have been very limited.  The

 5     Prosecution argues that when the statement is limited or when few or no

 6     associated exhibits are sought for admission, it is for the Prosecution

 7     to reconstruct the background during cross-examination.  The Chamber does

 8     not consider that this is the function of cross-examination.  The Chamber

 9     simply cannot comprehend why it would take more time to rebut information

10     which is not sought for admission than to rebut vast volumes of evidence.

11     The Prosecution's point that cross-examination is shorter when more

12     evidence is tendered in examination-in-chief does not hold.

13             On repeated occasions since the start of the Defence case, the

14     Chamber has warned the Prosecution on cross-examination that it should

15     move on to the next question and has also questioned the necessity of

16     some of the questions asked.  I would refer here as non-exhaustive

17     examples to transcript pages 28694 and 28970 from the date of

18     17th of October, to 29159 of 22nd October, and 29255 of 23rd of October.

19             In relation to the Prosecution's argument that it has drastically

20     reduced its already "relatively modest time estimates" and has ended up

21     spending much less time than anticipated, the Chamber considers that the

22     time estimates have been far from modest and disagrees with the argument

23     that they show that the Prosecution has been extremely efficient in

24     conducting its cross-examination.

25             Thus on the basis of all the reasons that I have referred to

Page 30419

 1     earlier, the Chamber considers that the time has come to impose limits on

 2     the Prosecution's time for cross-examination.  As it did with the

 3     accused, the Chamber will endeavour to inform the Prosecution of the time

 4     it has for cross-examination sufficiently in advance of the witness

 5     appearing before the Tribunal.  The Chamber will consider the scope of

 6     anticipated testimony, type of witness, quantity and type of written

 7     evidence proffered for the witness, if any, number of associated exhibits

 8     tenders, if any, the Prosecution's requested time for cross-examination,

 9     and to a lesser extent the accused's estimate of time for

10     examination-in-chief.  Furthermore, as it did with the accused, the

11     Chamber is amenable to giving additional time upon showing of good cause.

12     In order to assist the Chamber in its assessment of time required for

13     cross-examination, the Chamber would once again remind the accused of the

14     necessity to provide accurate and timely Rule 92 ter notifications, in

15     particular when it comes to associated exhibits sought for admission.

16             That being said, for the sake of notice, the Chamber will not

17     impose any limits for the next witness after Miladin Trifunovic, namely

18     Velimir Dunjic.  For the remaining witnesses for the week, the Chamber

19     hereby informs the Prosecution that it will have one and a half hours for

20     Mile Sladoje, one hour for Zoran Kovacevic, and one hour for KW318 --

21     K318.

22             In light of the pending motions for exclusion, or partial

23     exclusion, of evidence of witnesses Angelina Pikulic, Branislav Dukic,

24     and Radojka Pandurevic, the Chamber is not yet in a position to determine

25     time limits for cross-examination.  It will inform the parties in due

Page 30420

 1     course.

 2             Next, the Chamber refers to the accused's motion to admit

 3     evidence of Milorad Krnojelac pursuant to Rule 92 quater, filed on the

 4     15th of October, 2012, and the Prosecution's response to that motion

 5     filed on the 29th of October, 2012.

 6             After having reviewed the motion, response, and related

 7     materials, the Chamber would like to ask for some clarification from the

 8     accused about a couple of issues which arise from this motion.

 9             Mr. Robinson, the Chamber understand that Mr. Krnojelac was on

10     the original Rule 65 ter witness list which was filed on the

11     27th of August, 2012, and was listed as witness number 262 to testify

12     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  Following the Chamber's instruction that the

13     accused considered the relevance and potential repetitiveness of some of

14     the 579 witnesses listed on this initial witness list, the Defence filed

15     the supplemental submission pursuant to Rule 65 ter and a revised list of

16     witnesses on the 11th of September, 2012.  The accused specifically

17     represented that he had "taken on board the Trial Chamber's comments as

18     to the relevance and repetitiveness of some potential witnesses" and that

19     he had dropped ten witnesses from his 65 ter list.  As per footnote 3 of

20     the September notification, one of the only ten witnesses dropped on the

21     purported grounds of relevance and repetitiveness was witness number 262,

22     which was Mr. Krnojelac.

23             In light of these observations, so, Mr. Robinson, can you confirm

24     that Mr. Krnojelac was originally dropped from the accused's 65 ter

25     witness list on the grounds of relevance and repetitiveness, and then

Page 30421

 1     when the Defence was informed that he had passed away, it proceeded to

 2     file a motion for the admission of his 595-page transcript of testimony

 3     in the Krnojelac case itself.  So the Chamber would like you to also

 4     clarify when exactly you learned of Mr. Krnojelac's death.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We learned of his death in

 6     between the filing of the first and second Rule 65 ter submissions, and

 7     we took him off the list once we learned of his death.  We probably

 8     should have made it more clear that he was being dropped for a different

 9     reason than the others, but we lumped them all together.  And after we

10     learned that he had died, we just took steps to take him off the witness

11     list and began to review his testimony to see -- in his own trial to see

12     whether a 92 ter quater motion should be filed and then when -- after we

13     had done that, we filed that motion.  So he was not dropped for reasons

14     of relevance or repetitiveness.  And I apologise that we didn't make that

15     clear in the submission.

16             JUDGE KWON:  On a different perspective, could you tell us why

17     there is a good cause for the Chamber to grant leave for Mr. Krnojelac to

18     be added back to the 65 ter list given the chronology of the filings that

19     I referred to.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't believe that a

21     Rule 92 quater witness necessarily should be on the witness --

22     Rule 65 ter list, and you'll see that none of our Rule 92 quater

23     witnesses are on that list, and we had filed all of our motions before

24     the witness list was filed and it didn't include those witnesses.  So I

25     believe we do need good cause to show why we didn't file that motion by

Page 30422

 1     the 27th of August when the Rule 92 quater motions were due, and the good

 2     cause that we are asking you to consider is the fact that we didn't

 3     realise that Mr. Krnojelac had died.  That's why we put him on the

 4     witness list as a live witness on the 27th of August when we -- someone

 5     called it to our attention when they saw him on the witness list.  We

 6     checked it out and found out that in fact he had died, so we believe that

 7     constitutes good cause for allowing us to have a variance from the

 8     dead-line for Rule 92 quater witnesses.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Off the top of my head and speaking for myself, I

10     have difficulty following your submission that for the Rule 92 quater

11     witnesses they shouldn't -- it is not necessary for them to be included

12     in 65 ter list.  Do you have any basis for that?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, the Rule 65 ter list, as far as we

14     understood it, was for witnesses whose evidence would be offered

15     subsequent to the 27th of August, and so as a result, we only included

16     all of those who we actually anticipated from the time forward would be

17     witnesses.  We didn't -- as you see, we didn't include any of our

18     Rule 92 quater witnesses for whom motions had already been filed.  So in

19     other words, we basically believed it was redundant to put witnesses on a

20     witness list for whom motions had already been filed for admission and

21     who were deceased and therefore wouldn't be appearing before the Chamber.

22     If that's -- there may -- I don't know if there's jurisprudence on this

23     issue as to whether 92 quater witnesses have to be on the Rule 65 ter

24     list, but I could research that if you'd like, but that's the basis upon

25     which we proceeded.

Page 30423

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any observation, Mr. Tieger, on the

 2     issue of this Rule 92 quater motion?  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Not based particularly on the jurisprudence,

 4     Mr. President, just based on what I've just heard in court, but two

 5     things occur to me.

 6             Number one, even assuming for the sake of argument the rationale

 7     presented by Mr. Robinson with respect to the earlier witnesses for whom

 8     motions were simultaneously pending, many if not all of which ultimately

 9     denied, I don't see how that would apply to the Krnojelac situation.

10     That's two different circumstances.

11             And number two, I wish I could say I was surprised by the

12     assertion that it was only after Mr. Krnojelac died that the Defence

13     decided to review his statement, but I'm not.  That is a matter that I

14     will allude to further at some point during the course of the day and in

15     connection with some other information I have to bring to the Court, but

16     I think that also tends to undercut the strength of the Defence's

17     position on this matter, their own assertion that it was not until such

18     time as they learned of the witness's death that they felt it would be

19     useful to know what it was he might have to say.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If we read Rule 65 ter,

21     subparagraph (G)(i)(e) which says:

22             "An indication of whether the witness will testify in person or

23     pursuant to Rule 92 bis or Rule 92 quater by way of written statement or

24     use of a transcript of testimony from other proceedings before the

25     Tribunal."

Page 30424

 1             I think it's clear.  Well, I'll leave it at that, and unless

 2     there's other matters to deal with, we'll bring in the witness.

 3             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I'll have a matter that I think takes

 5     more time than we should use at the moment.  I'll raise it perhaps at the

 6     beginning of the next session, but I did want to inquire before we begin

 7     in light of the Court's earlier comments concerning the issue regarding

 8     interview of Defence witnesses by the Prosecution, that those -- the

 9     Court considered that to be a bit of a storm in a teacup, I wondered

10     whether the Chamber wanted us to address the accused's recent motion for

11     clarification orally so we can move quickly on this matter one way or

12     another.  We can do it written -- in a written manner if the Court

13     prefers or I can respond now.  But that was my only inquiry.  Or I could

14     respond later in the day if the Court prefers.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Actually, I just saw the filing and I didn't read

16     it.  I'll consult my colleagues.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.  Please proceed.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Very quickly, Mr. President.  I think in light of

20     the arguments that were made previously, the motions and the decision

21     that this is really a motion for reconsideration cloaked as a motion for

22     clarification.

23             First of all, the accused is now asking for something that he

24     specifically asked for previously.  Indeed, that was alluded to in

25     paragraph 7 of the Court's decision, and the Court did not grant it,

Page 30425

 1     clearly.

 2             Secondly, the accused's motion -- or his efforts in this regard

 3     thus far have been based on a kind of alleged need for parity.  The

 4     Prosecution did not seek in the previous -- when the situation was

 5     reversed did not insist on, ask for, or allude to the need for the

 6     Defence to do anything other than let us know.  In fact, I don't even

 7     know that we specified that because that was based on the jurisprudence.

 8     We just asked when the Defence wanted to contact witnesses for whom they

 9     had contact details already that they identify themselves clearly so that

10     the witness would know who was talking to them.

11             Third, the Court's decision is clearly grounded in two basic

12     principles.  Number one, there's no property in a witness; and number

13     two, it's a matter of professional courtesy to let the other party know

14     that you intend to speak to the witnesses.  That's exactly what we did.

15     If the Defence wishes on that basis, then, to take steps to contact their

16     witnesses either first or afterwards, they're free to do so, but we've

17     complied with the order.  The order is clear, and it's -- it's rounded on

18     the principles that I just identified and no further steps need be taken.

19             And finally, I should note that the Defence alludes in a couple

20     of places in their motion to the alarm that witnesses might feel.  Let me

21     say quickly two things about that.

22             Number one, it seems to be a highly speculative and fanciful

23     argument, but number two, to the extent that the Defence is indeed

24     concerned about alarming witnesses, it seems to be because there are many

25     witnesses who have never been contacted by the Defence in the first place

Page 30426

 1     to know that they are witnesses, and I -- and the Defence actually sent

 2     us a letter asking us to provide them with the contact details of the

 3     witnesses we intended to contact, which certainly indicated to us they

 4     had never been in contact with those people and didn't have their contact

 5     details and their concern about raising any alarm with witnesses is based

 6     on the fact that that would be the first time apparently that these

 7     witnesses knew they were to testify in this case.  That's a problem

 8     created by the Defence entirely.  It shouldn't change the basis for the

 9     Court's order, and we think there's -- as I say, this is -- there's no

10     need for clarification, and to the extent the motion is instead a motion

11     for reconsideration in another guise we ask that it be denied.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, do you like to add anything to this?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, very briefly.  After your

14     order, the Prosecution sent us a letter indicating they wanted to

15     interview 210 witnesses for whom they had contact details and 309

16     witnesses for whom they didn't, for whom the Victims and Witnesses Unit

17     would need to make the contact and for whom we would have to provide

18     contact details for them.  So virtually our entire witness list was

19     returned to us by the Prosecution as indicating these are the people they

20     would like to interview.  Subsequently, the Prosecution advised the

21     victim witness section it wasn't necessary to contact the 309 witnesses

22     that they would be conducting the great majority of the interviews here

23     in The Hague and that they could be contacted prior to their coming to

24     The Hague or when they arrive in The Hague to make those arrangements.

25     But for the 210 witnesses that they have contact details for, now they

Page 30427

 1     don't want to specify to us which ones they actually plan on

 2     interviewing.  So we have to contact all of those witnesses pursuant to

 3     the order, or we would like to contact all of those witnesses, and we

 4     don't think that that's really a wise use of our resources, and also it

 5     would -- because it can cause concern among people who don't need to

 6     otherwise be concerned because the Prosecution will probably interview a

 7     very small percentage of those witnesses.  So we're spinning a lot of

 8     wheels and causing a lot of concern and angst that don't need to be done.

 9             We propose and we think that what the Court had in mind was a

10     more targeted approach, that if the Prosecution generally intends and

11     wants to interview a particular witness let us know.  We'll immediately

12     contact the witness and that will be the end of it, and they can go ahead

13     and make contact with the witness directly.  This way, everybody's

14     working on things that actually have to be -- are productive instead of

15     spinning wheels that don't need to be spun, and that's our point, and

16     that was the point of our request for clarification, because your order

17     indicates that if the Prosecution wishes to contact a Defence witness,

18     then this procedure should be put in place where we're given the

19     opportunity to contact them first.  So we're asking you to clarify the

20     meaning of wishes.  Is the wish some abstract desire that some day maybe

21     under some circumstances they might possibly decide they want to talk to

22     the witness or is it something that's more focused that they actually do

23     have a firm intention of wanting to speak to that witness, and that's the

24     issue before you.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  You referred to a concern on the part of the

Page 30428

 1     witness.  What kind of concern would there be if the Prosecution wishes

 2     to interview the witness himself or herself?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  I would imagine the fact that many of our

 4     witnesses particularly in the municipalities portion of the case were

 5     themselves either suspects when interviewed by the Prosecution the first

 6     time or are concerned about possibly being prosecuted in the state court

 7     in Bosnia as a result of their usually -- role on the Crisis Staff in

 8     that municipality.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  I don't want to protract this argument to any great

11     degree, Mr. President, but I need to indicate that this is, in our

12     submission, a complete deflection by the Defence.  Mr. Robinson is aware

13     that we wish to interview those witnesses, and the reason we wish to

14     interview them is because in large measure we haven't been provided with

15     any meaningful information about them.  So another matter I wish to raise

16     today but not at this moment, because of the time that's passed.  In

17     other words, it's the Defence that created this situation in the first

18     place by not complying with Rule 65 ter (G), not providing the

19     information we needed.  They're very much aware of fact that that

20     underlies in large measure the need to talk to all these people.  It

21     certainly could be the case that if we ever received proper information

22     and the information to which we're entitled under the Rules that some of

23     these witnesses might not need to be interviewed.  That's number one.

24             Secondly, with regard to wheel spinning, again that's a matter

25     that's been created by the Defence.  Had they met with these witnesses in

Page 30429

 1     advance, it would certainly have been appropriate to tell those people,

 2     You may be contacted by the Prosecution, certainly up to you one way or

 3     another whether you wish to talk to them, we leave that matter to you,

 4     et cetera, et cetera, as is commonly done.  Nor would they have any need

 5     to turn to the Prosecution for the contact details of people they listed

 6     on their witness list without providing any information whatsoever, any

 7     meaningful information whatsoever about what those people would testify

 8     to.

 9             And second if there's any wheel spinning that's entirely up to

10     the Defence.  If they wish to contact those witnesses they can, pretty

11     much in short order if -- to simply advise somebody that they may or may

12     not be contacted by the Prosecution.  To that extent this is a storm in a

13     teacup.  The -- back to the Chamber's original decision it dealt with

14     that.  It considered the accused's earlier request to have this kind of

15     power over when the Prosecution would speak to people and which people

16     they'd speak to based on what action the Defence might take and the Court

17     rejected that very clearly.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  The Chamber will consider the matter and

19     issue a ruling in due course.

20             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I just want to put on the

22     record that Witness KW492 will not be called.  He was scheduled to be

23     called this month but after learning of the Trial Chamber's decision

24     concerning his protective measures, he has refused to testify in the

25     case.  Thank you.

Page 30430

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I continue to ponder why Mr. Robinson feels it

 4     necessary to put these -- this matter on the record.  There are a million

 5     reasons why witnesses don't want to testify.  We raised that matter the

 6     first time that Mr. Robinson attempted to do this and identify some of

 7     the factors that we considered led to the witness's decision not to

 8     testify.  I think this is a transparent attempt to suggest a necessary

 9     link between the trial's decision and put pressure on the Trial Chamber

10     with regard to its decisions regarding protective measures and I consider

11     it to be inappropriate and I'm going to ask that it cease.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Speaking for myself, Mr. Robinson, I tend to agree

14     with Mr. Tieger's observation, but -- and further, I don't think it's an

15     appropriate way of using court time.  So in the future, if necessary in

16     your opinion, would you put that in writing.

17             Well, let's bring in Mr. Trifunovic.  Shall we move into closed

18     session?

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  I think going into closed session may -- yes.  We

21     need to draw the blinds.  Yes, let's do that.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23                           WITNESS:  MILADIN TRIFUNOVIC [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Trifunovic.  I apologise again for

Page 30431

 1     your inconvenience.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Good morning.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please continue.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:  [Continued]

 6        Q.   Mr. Trifunovic, during the past 11 days since you left the

 7     courtroom, have you spoken to anyone about what you had testified about?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And have you spoken to anyone about the evidence that you may be

10     about to give?

11        A.   Well, no one except my family.  My family knew that I was

12     returning.

13        Q.   But you didn't discuss any -- any detail in relation to any

14     evidence you may give?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   I want to ask you a couple of questions about the function of the

17     commander of the Vogosca Brigade.  Your statement doesn't actually say

18     when you became the commander.  When was that?

19        A.   Officially the 20th of September, 2002, by the corps.

20        Q.   That was when you were -- you received formal written notice, but

21     it's right, isn't it, that you been performing this function as the

22     commander of the Vogosca Brigade for some time prior to that?

23        A.   I was the commander of the Blagoje [as interpreted] Battalion

24     because it was the strongest battalion, and there were no active-duty

25     officers, and my role was to unify these battalions until someone came

Page 30432

 1     there, one of the professional soldiers.

 2        Q.   When -- when did you become commander -- I'm sorry, just for one

 3     moment.  In your answer, you said officially the 20th of September, 2002,

 4     or that's at least how it's in the record.  Did you mean 1992?

 5        A.   Yes, 1992.  I believe that's the date.  Perhaps I may be off by a

 6     couple of days, but I believe it's in September.

 7        Q.   So when did you become commander of the Blagovac Battalion?

 8        A.   Even before the war in peacetime in the former Yugoslavia I was a

 9     TO commander of a unit in Blagovac which was charged with defending

10     Pretis.  That unit was deployed in Blagovac, and its sole role was in the

11     event that it was necessary and that the factory which was nearby was

12     under threat, the role was to defend that factory, Pretis, and since

13     that's how it was, then I just remained as part of that battalion.

14        Q.   Who appointed you to the function of commander of the

15     Vogosca Brigade?

16        A.   Well, I was appointed through -- when an official document was

17     issued, and I was appointed by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command.

18        Q.   Informally, who appointed you to be the commander of the

19     Vogosca Brigade?

20        A.   Well, I can't recall every detail, it was a long time ago, but I

21     believe it was the Vogosca municipality, the Serbian municipality of

22     Vogosca.  There were two municipalities that were established then, one

23     was Serb and the other Muslim, and I was appointed the commander of

24     Vogosca Brigade by that side.  That was my task.  I was entrusted with

25     this task until Colonel Vukota arrived who then established the

Page 30433

 1     Tactical Group.

 2        Q.   Colonel Vukota you're referring to as -- do you mean

 3     Colonel Vukovic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   When did he arrive?

 6        A.   I think sometime in May.

 7        Q.   So getting back to your appointment by the Serbian municipality

 8     of Vogosca, who actually are we talking about?  Can you name the people

 9     that appointed you informally to the position?

10        A.   Well, Rajko Koprivica was the president of the

11     Executive Committee and there was also Svetozar Stanic, who was president

12     of the Assembly, the Municipal Assembly.

13        Q.   And Jovan Tintor?

14        A.   Well, I really don't know what Jovan Tintor's role was.  He was a

15     member of some fora [as interpreted].  I don't know what exactly he did.

16     He was involved in political life, but he was not in the municipal -- in

17     any of the municipal bodies at that time.  I know that he was later

18     appointed, but what he was doing at that time exactly, I don't know.

19        Q.   And did he have any involvement in the TO?

20        A.   Well, at first I don't remember what that was called.  A

21     Crisis Staff, a Municipal Staff, something like that.  Well, anyhow, he

22     was top political leader.  What he did exactly, I don't know.  I don't

23     know what his role was.

24        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago Colonel Vukota Vukovic appearing on

25     the scene in around May, and you stated in paragraph 7 of your statement

Page 30434

 1     that this Tactical Group was formed from the Vogosca, Ilijas, and

 2     Rajlovac Brigades and that he was the commander.

 3        A.   No, no, no.  He was the commander of the Tactical Group that

 4     included the Vogosca, the Kosevo, and the Rajlovac Brigades.

 5        Q.   Are you also aware that in September General Galic issued a

 6     formal appointment forming an Operational Group from the units of Ilidza,

 7     Ilijas, Igman, Rajlovac, and Vogosca Brigades and that Vukovic was its

 8     commander?

 9        A.   I am not aware of that really.  This is the first time that I

10     hear it.

11        Q.   But as commander of the Vogosca Brigade, you reported daily and

12     sometimes more to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command from May through

13     December, did you not?

14        A.   Well, as needed we reported.  When the Tactical Group was

15     established, then most of that went through the Tactical Group, because

16     the immediate -- my immediate superior unit was the Tactical Group.

17        Q.   But you were sending your daily combat reports to the command

18     copying the Operative Group; isn't that right?

19        A.   Well, we sent daily reports for the most part to the

20     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps because that was the system in place.  They were

21     in the field, so they didn't have any equipment or means to receive them.

22     So that's how it was.

23        Q.   I want to talk with you now about your arrest in December 1992.

24     I want to clarify a couple of matters.  You were asked about your arrest

25     and detention at transcript pages 30372 and 30375.  What was the date you

Page 30435

 1     were arrested?

 2        A.   Well, it was the 14th or the 15th of December, if I'm not

 3     mistaken.  I believe it was the 15th of December, 1992.

 4        Q.   Who arrested you?

 5        A.   Well, a group of officers arrived, and there were also some

 6     political figures with them at the time, the mayor -- I may be mistaken

 7     because I don't know all the names and functions of the people, but the

 8     mayor, Trifko Radic; Ratko Adzic, who was the president of the

 9     municipality; and the then president of the municipality,

10     Rajko Koprivica; the military police, the corps military police, they

11     came and arrested me.

12        Q.   So Koprivica was from the Vogosca municipality.  Trifko Radic and

13     Ratko Adzic, can you just tell the Chamber which municipalities they were

14     from?

15        A.   Trifko Radic was from -- or Ratko Radic from the Ilijas

16     municipality, and Trifko Radic was the mayor of all the municipalities in

17     the area of the Serbian Sarajevo as it was called then.

18        Q.   Now, you said the corps -- SRK corps military police arrested

19     you.  Can you just very briefly tell us the circumstances?  Where were

20     you when you were arrested?

21        A.   At the time when they arrived, and I believe it was around

22     midnight, I was at the command headquarters at the brigade command, my

23     brigade, and I had just gone to sleep, and I thought that they had come

24     to discuss the situation which was very alarming, especially in Zuc

25     because there had been intense fighting.  The Muslim forces were trying

Page 30436

 1     to get through to Vogosca.  So they pushed us back all the way back to

 2     Gola Brdo and 850 elevation, and we stopped there in order to fortify our

 3     positions because there was no place else where we could go.  All the

 4     fighters who were on that front line were fighters fighting outside their

 5     own homes and some 150 metres or so, 30 to 150 metres behind them were

 6     their families.  So they came to my command then, and they said that I

 7     was guilty of losing this elevation or trig point 850 because we had lost

 8     some 100 metres, we as a brigade.

 9        Q.   You said that -- this is at transcript page 30372, that you were

10     detained with four of your assistants and all the leadership members of

11     the Rajlovac Brigade.  The four assistants that you're referring to, do

12     you mean Kenic, who was the deputy of the brigade and your

13     Chief of Staff, Momcilo Kenic?  Was he arrested with you?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And Milan Terzic, Captain Milan Terzic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And Major Sretko Skipina?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Who else from the Vogosca Brigade was arrested?

20        A.   No one else.

21        Q.   And so who were the leadership members of the Rajlovac Brigade

22     who were arrested?

23        A.   Of the Rajlovac Brigade there was the president of the

24     municipality.  Bozic was his last name, but I can't recall his first

25     name.  And the entire command of the Rajlovac Brigade, Simatovic -- I

Page 30437

 1     can't recall all the names, but I believe there were 17 of them or so.

 2        Q.   Who replaced you as the commander of the Vogosca Brigade?

 3        A.   I don't know on whose orders, but I believe that some people from

 4     the Ilijas Brigade were appointed such as Bosnjak, warrant officer

 5     Bosnjak, and this was on a temporary basis.

 6        Q.   And then who took over after him?

 7        A.   After him?  Well, I don't know if I'm going to guess the order

 8     right, but I believe he was followed by Major Robert Jovanoski, an

 9     active-duty officer, but he didn't stay there long.  Then Major Antic

10     came, but he didn't stay long either, and then Lieutenant-Colonel --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not catch the name.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] until the brigade was formed

13     including these three brigades, the Ilijas, so the Rajlovac --

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   Who was the last person you mentioned?  Lieutenant-colonel who?

16        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Milos Delic, I believe.

17        Q.   After your few days of detention, you then took up duties as

18     commander of the Blagovac Battalion, did you not?

19        A.   Well, that didn't happen soon.  I was on leave for the situation

20     to settle down, and then I took over the role of the Blagovac Battalion

21     commander.  I can't recall the date, but it was in 1993, I believe.

22        Q.   And you stayed in that post up until the end of 1993, early 1994,

23     when you became the transport manager at Pretis?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And as commander of the Blagojevic -- Blagovac Battalion, you

Page 30438

 1     reported to the commander of the Vogosca Brigade, yes?

 2        A.   Probably.  That's how it was supposed to be.

 3        Q.   Mr. Trifunovic, I want to deal briefly with the matter we

 4     would -- we left off at last Thursday.  We looked at orders which were

 5     issued by you for the detainees to be used in the field and at Zuc.  You

 6     saw that the War Commission, Vogosca War Commission, was copied on some

 7     of the orders.  It was your habit to keep the Vogosca War Commission

 8     informed of your orders and requests such as these for prisoners to be

 9     taken for work, wasn't it?

10        A.   Could you please show it to me.  I don't know what we are exactly

11     discussing.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Exhibit P05999.

13        Q.   This was -- this was one of the orders that I showed you last

14     Thursday, and we see here that it's an order to take prisoners for work

15     at Zuc, and we can see that the War Commission's copied; is that right?

16        A.   I don't see it here in my language.

17        Q.   I'm sorry.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can scroll the page up, the B/C/S page.

19        Q.   Do you see it there?  If I can show you another document.  Do you

20     see that there, Mr. Trifunovic, where it says copying the prison

21     administration and the War Commission and then a copy for the files?  Do

22     you see that on that document in front of you?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, I can see it.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And can we also have Exhibit P06000, please.

25        Q.   And if we can see down the bottom again.  This is an order for

Page 30439

 1     you for prisoners for work at Zuc, and we see it's sent to the prison

 2     administration and the War Commission in the file.  So my question -- but

 3     I asked you before we looked at these exhibits if it was your habit to

 4     keep the War Commission informed of your orders and requests such as

 5     these, wasn't it?

 6        A.   It wasn't standard practice.  I don't know why they were copied

 7     here.  I no longer remember.  In any case, the War Commission did exist

 8     under the heading of Nikola Poplasen, at least for a while, so perhaps

 9     this was during that time.

10        Q.   You said in paragraph 18 that each soldier and officer in your

11     unit was informed on several occasions of the orders issued in relation

12     to the prohibition of opening fire on civilians and civilian facilities.

13     How did you inform your subordinates of this?

14        A.   Oftentimes we had briefings, perhaps daily or every couple of

15     days depending on the situation and the ability to attend.  During the

16     briefings all problems were discussed, individual units and their issues,

17     et cetera.  We tried to come up with solutions for those problems in the

18     best possible way so as to avoid any repetition of such problems.

19        Q.   And you --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Apologies.  There is an important

21     element that is missing.  He said if there were cases such as that.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Do you confirm saying that, Mr. Trifunovic?

24        A.   Well, I believe I said that there were briefings, perhaps daily

25     which depended on the situation, and every unit or unit commands

Page 30440

 1     discussed their problems in the field.  We tried to come up with

 2     solutions to those problems and to issue tasks accordingly to tackle them

 3     in the best possible way if there were such cases with undesirable

 4     effects.  That's how it was.

 5        Q.   And you said also in that paragraph that opening fire on

 6     civilians and civilian facilities was only allowed if the unit's security

 7     was seriously compromised.  What do you mean only if the unit's security

 8     was seriously compromised?

 9        A.   Is it in the statement I drafted or somewhere else?

10        Q.   Yes.  That's P02444, if my memory serves me correctly.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be provided with

12     a hard copy.

13             JUDGE KWON:  It's coming on the e-court.  Can you take a look.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Paragraph -- no, no.  No.  D, sorry, D.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which paragraph?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   Paragraph 18.  So what did you mean by only if the unit's

18     security was seriously compromised?

19        A.   Could you please allow me to finish with my reading and then I

20     can respond.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  May we go into private

22     session for one moment.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 30441

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please continue.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   Mr. Trifunovic, have you read that paragraph 18?

13        A.   I have read it.

14        Q.   What did you mean by only if the unit's security was seriously

15     compromised that you could open fire on civilians and civilian

16     facilities?

17        A.   Frequently the Muslim forces made use of civilian facilities as

18     their strongholds in order to deploy mortars and store artillery pieces

19     which they used against us.  It often happened in the area of Menjak.

20     They used the houses there as strongholds to engage in sniping or

21     artillery attacks in order to target the gate of the Pretis factory while

22     the workers disembarked from the buses, and we had many wounded and

23     killed workers.  In such cases, we tried to eliminate such sniping or

24     mortar positions by neutralising them in order to prevent any further

25     fire.  We believed that fire was coming from civilian houses.  We didn't

Page 30442

 1     know whether there were civilians there or not, but we could clearly see

 2     that we were engaged from such locations.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me add something.  The witness

 4     said that there were many killed workers and many wounded workers.

 5     Line 15.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Trifunovic?

 8        A.   That is correct.  Civilians, workers, and anyone who passed by.

 9     That was the main route.  In order to avoid such incidents and in order

10     to avoid engaging such positions, we placed metal containers so as to

11     block the view from their machine-gun nests so that they wouldn't be able

12     to see people coming on the buses, and we tried to preserve the lives of

13     workers and passengers in that way.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The -- it was reflected that witness said that we

15     had many wounded and killed workers.  I think it was already reflected.

16     Let us continue.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   And not knowing whether there was civilians in those buildings or

19     not, you engaged in those -- firing on those locations.

20        A.   They were not locations but individual houses with fortified

21     cellars from which we were being attacked, having many wounded and killed

22     people.

23        Q.   I want to move on to another topic, and that is you said that you

24     knew that there were aerial bombs and that they appeared in the second

25     half of the war, and that's in paragraph 19 of your statement.  And you

Page 30443

 1     said that you were told of the G14 incident which relates to a modified

 2     air-bomb being allegedly fired from Pretis towards Dositejeva Street in

 3     Sarajevo on the 16th of June, 1995.  Who told you about the G14 incident?

 4        A.   We heard it on the news, on the Muslim TV and radio that a shell

 5     had been fired, or whatever they called it, from the location of Pretis.

 6     They called it a modified projectile.  As far as I recall, I have never

 7     seen such a bomb, an air-bomb, and I don't know what it looks like.  I

 8     also don't remember any firing from that location.  Having in mind the

 9     size of that bomb, we should have been able to hear the detonation,

10     whereas I did not, I have not.  That was sometime during the war, and

11     people were saying that there were such things, but I've never seen it.

12        Q.   You weren't in the brigade at that time in June 1995, were you?

13        A.   I was not in the brigade, but I was in the factory within the

14     perimeter of the Pretis factory.

15        Q.   Are you aware that in June 1995, specifically on the

16     15th of June, 1995, that the Vogosca Brigade had a launcher for an aerial

17     bomb?

18        A.   In 1995, there was no Vogosca Brigade.  There was only the

19     3rd Sarajevo Brigade.  Now, whether as part of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade

20     there were such bombs or launchers as some call them, that's something I

21     don't know.  I've never seen them.

22        Q.   Yes, I agree.  The Vogosca Brigade did -- was renamed into the

23     3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade at some point.

24             I want to deal now with the last topic, and I have a number of

25     documents that I wish to show you, and if we can move through this as

Page 30444

 1     briefly as we can because we have some limited time.

 2             You said in your statement that:

 3             "There were several paramilitary units in Vogosca municipality,

 4     and the civilian authorities, with our help and support, kept taking

 5     steps to get rid of these paramilitaries because no unit wanted to

 6     include them in their ranks."

 7             And you said that in paragraph 21 of your statement.  Which

 8     paramilitaries are you referring to?

 9        A.   That -- that's how things were at the beginning of the war.

10     There were many paramilitary units.  There were self-proclaimed

11     commanders until things fell together.  There were units and volunteers

12     who came from elsewhere who refused to be placed under the command of the

13     VRS.  And if -- in case they refused to, we strove to get them out of our

14     area, to have them eliminated from the area because they were causing

15     more harm than good.

16        Q.   First of all, which paramilitary units were these?  What are the

17     names of the paramilitary units?

18        A.   I don't know what their names were.  There were volunteers,

19     paramilitary units with all sorts of nicknames.  I can't remember them.

20        Q.   I'll give you a few names.  What about Boro Radic's group?

21        A.   Boro Radic did have a unit of his.  He refused to be placed under

22     military command, and then he was issued some separate task perhaps by

23     the Tactical Group or someone else, but I think he acted independently

24     most of the time.

25        Q.   When Radic's group first came -- first of all, what was the group

Page 30445

 1     made up of?  Where did this group come from?

 2        A.   Boro Radic, if I recall him well, hailed from Vogosca.  He was

 3     married to a Muslim lady.  Initially in 1992 he was a member of the

 4     Patriotic League.  He created some kind of joint Patriotic League but

 5     then there was a rift --

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   -- following which he brought some unfamiliar people from

 8     elsewhere.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have Exhibit 2366, please.

10        Q.   This is a list dated the 25th of May, 1992 - that's

11     Exhibit P02366 - and it's a list of names 22 men in the special

12     detachment, and the first one on the list is Boro Radic.  Who did these

13     men report to in -- in May 1992:  Jovan Tintor, the Crisis Staff, you?

14        A.   They never reported to me.  I had no co-operation with them

15     whatsoever, and we were not in contact, at least not in any positive

16     meaningful way.

17        Q.   What crimes did Boro Radic's group commit in the Vogosca

18     municipality?

19        A.   I was neither a security officer nor a MUP officer who would be

20     tasked with gathering such information.  I really don't know.

21        Q.   Did you hear about any of the crimes he was -- his men were -- he

22     and his men were committing?

23        A.   Whatever I heard and whatever I did not see is something that I'm

24     not competent to discuss.  I don't know.  I wasn't in any of the crime

25     scenes following the crimes that were committed, if there were crimes.

Page 30446

 1        Q.   You said that you and the civilian authorities were trying to get

 2     Boro -- were trying to get these paramilitary groups out.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter 24172, please.

 4        Q.   This is dated the 27th of June.  It's a request for the issuing

 5     of a vehicle to a member of Radic's special unit.  And this is the

 6     War Commission who is giving this person a Golf.  Is this the same local

 7     authorities that you were talking about who were trying to get rid of

 8     Radic's group?

 9        A.   Probably.  There were no others.  Second of all, there was no

10     War Presidency, and anyone could put anything in writing.  I don't know.

11     This was not sent to us.  I don't know who it was sent to, and I have no

12     idea if it was approved.

13        Q.   Were the men from Boro Radic's special group incorporated into

14     units within the Vogosca Brigade in September 1992?

15        A.   I don't know.  When Boro Radic was killed, I don't know what

16     month that was, perhaps in August.  In any case, the group, the unit,

17     fell apart.  Some returned to their home units -- or, rather, to the

18     units where they were supposed to belong, whereas others left.  I don't

19     know anything else.  I don't have that information.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have 65 ter 01631, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Trifunovic, this is a document from the VRS Vogosca Brigade

22     command dated the 30th of September, 1992, and it's an order.  If we can

23     go to page 2 and page 3 in the B/C/S.

24             This was an order which was signed, I think, by your deputy, the

25     Chief of Staff, Kenic, disbanding Radic's group.  It's signed on your

Page 30447

 1     behalf as commander of the Vogosca Brigade, and it puts the units within

 2     the Vogosca Brigade.

 3        A.   What is the date?

 4        Q.   The 30th of September, 1992.  And if you compare this document

 5     with Exhibit P02366, if you compare the names in both of those documents,

 6     you can see that there are a number of names that are the same.  For

 7     example, if we can go back to page 1 of this document, this document on

 8     the screen --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Let us show him the two documents.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we put up P02366 on one -- on the right-hand

11     side --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- and in the B/C/S, and the B/C/S remains of

14     65 ter number 01631 on the left.

15        Q.   We can see in the 1st Company four names:  Branislav Josipovic,

16     Ljubomir Tosovic, Zivorad Markovic, and Nebojsa Trifunovic.  And those

17     four names appear in the exhibit on the right-hand side which is P2366,

18     do they not?  If we go to the 2nd company, you'll find item --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Let's hear from the witness.  The

20     B/C/S translation takes time.

21             Yes, Mr. Trifunovic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already answered.  While

23     Boro Radic was alive, who had been known to the criminal investigation

24     police, he gathered that group and refused to be placed under the command

25     of any unit.  As soon as he was out of the picture, these people asked to

Page 30448

 1     be joined with any of the units in the brigade area.  They asked to be

 2     placed under military command.  Some of the personnel from his unit left

 3     the territory of Vogosca since they did not want to be placed under

 4     military command.  That's it.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   If we go to the 2nd Company, you'll find item number 4.

 7     Boro Jovicic also appears on the other list as well.  And if we go to the

 8     last list of names in the English version, which is the brigade's

 9     Reconnaissance Platoon -- or in fact in the B/C/S version, you'll find

10     numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 also appear on the list.  If we can go to the last

11     page.

12             JUDGE KWON:  You don't need the Exhibit P2366 any more?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No.  Oh, well, yes, if he wants to compare the

14     names or, in fact, their --

15             JUDGE KWON:  It's very difficult if you refer to English page

16     then.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry.  I said B/C/S, Your Honour.  I

18     corrected myself.  If we can go to the -- yes, there.

19        Q.   You can see that numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 also appear on the

20     right-hand side of the screen.  So you agree that this group of Radic's

21     special detachment soldiers have been incorporated into the

22     Vogosca Brigade by your order of the 30th of September, 1992?

23        A.   I disagree.

24        Q.   Well, you weren't trying to get rid of them, were you, if you

25     were incorporating them into your brigade?

Page 30449

 1        A.   Yes, that's right, but they had been established as some sort of

 2     unit.  Now, whether they were within the Tactical Group or something, I

 3     don't know.  I don't know.  As soon as Boro Radic was no longer there, we

 4     made an effort to have all people return to units that wished to be

 5     placed under the command, because we did not have enough manpower, enough

 6     resources, nothing.  Every soldier who was willing to place himself under

 7     the command was welcome.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have one -- two other areas that

 9     will take me about seven minutes.  I would think seven to ten minutes,

10     but I note the time.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll -- we'll have a break for half an hour,

12     and resume at 3 past 11.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I tender the last two

17     documents, 65 ter number 24172 and 65 ter number 01631, please.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we don't have any objection to

19     01631, but as far as 24172 is concerned, the witness didn't confirm

20     anything about that document and it doesn't directly impeach or

21     contradict his evidence.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, I tend to agree with

23     Mr. Robinson's observation, but if you would like to respond with respect

24     to 24172 I will hear from you.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think it go to the general

Page 30450

 1     impeachment of this witness in relation to him saying that it was him and

 2     the civilian authorities who were wanting to get these people out of the

 3     municipality.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I think, yes, the Chamber agrees with that.  On that

 6     basis, we'll admit that, both of the documents.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 24172 will be P6001 and

 8     65 ter number 01631 will be Exhibit P6002.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   Mr. Trifunovic, another paramilitary group which was in the

11     Vogosca municipality was the Sosa Detachment, wasn't it?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   This is a detachment which was -- which was under Jovo Ostojic's

14     command, was it not?

15        A.   If I remember correctly, once this detachment came into Vogosca

16     for a few days, they did not want to place themselves under the command,

17     and they sort of got lost.  I mean, if I understand correctly who this is

18     about, we tried to eliminate them from the area, and then they left and

19     where they went I really have no idea, but they didn't stay there for a

20     long time.  I think they are some sort of paramilitary unit, I don't

21     know, but they did not stay long.

22        Q.   And where did this paramilitary come from?  They came from

23     Serbia, didn't they?

24        A.   I think they were some kind of volunteers.  Now, where they came

25     from, I don't know.

Page 30451

 1        Q.   This detachment was paid by the Bosnian Serb authorities, wasn't

 2     it?

 3        A.   I don't know on which basis they came and whether someone paid

 4     them or did not pay them, whether anybody paid them.  I don't know.  I

 5     just know that this group came.  That was probably their name.  They

 6     didn't want to place themselves under the command.  They didn't want to

 7     hold the defence lines.  They were not interested in that, and we saw

 8     them off, let them be of.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can I have Exhibit P05418, please.

10        Q.   This is a document dated the 28th of July from Koprivica, who was

11     president of the Executive Board of the Serb municipality of Vogosca,

12     sent to the War Commission, and it's giving approval for the -- stating,

13     sorry, that approval had been given in principle by representatives of

14     the Vogosca municipality to remunerate volunteers engaged under the

15     command of the Jovo Ostojic.  Now, you said that this group just came on

16     one occasion and then they disappeared.  Does this document refresh your

17     memory as to whether they were engaged in the Vogosca municipality?

18        A.   They were in our area for a few days.  I've already said that.

19     And then when they got this area of responsibility to hold the line at

20     Zuc, they didn't want to do that.  And then I disassociated myself from

21     them.  Now, where they went after that and what they did afterwards, I

22     really don't know.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have Exhibit P02377, please.

24        Q.   This is a document dated the 30th of July, 1992.  It's a war

25     commission conclusion about paying the Sosa Detachment under

Page 30452

 1     Major Jovo Stojic's command saying they were indispensable for the

 2     successful defence for the municipality of Serbian municipality of

 3     Vogosca.  Are you sure you don't recall these -- this detachment being in

 4     Vogosca for more than a few days?

 5        A.   I claim with full responsibility that we, since there were far

 6     less of us on our side than there were soldiers on the other side, each

 7     and every soldier was welcome as far as we were concerned.  Whoever came

 8     and placed himself under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska was

 9     welcome.  These people were there for a few days and left.  Now, where

10     they were put up, I don't know.  If I can remember this properly, they

11     were there for a few days, and then after that they went to some other

12     area, I guess.  I really don't know.

13        Q.   A few days when?  In -- in what month?

14        A.   Well, probably in this period.  I mean, I don't know.  I cannot

15     remember each and every date.  I mean, this was 20 years ago.  Probably

16     in this period that is mentioned.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can have Exhibit P02373.

18        Q.   We see this is dated the 15th of July, 1992.  It's from Stanisic,

19     who you mentioned earlier in your testimony today as president of the

20     Serb municipality of Vogosca, writing to the Ministry of Finance of the

21     Serb Republic of BiH requesting to be reimbursed of cash funds for monies

22     paid out from the 1st of April, 1992, to the 14th of July, 1992, to

23     brigades and also 500.000 dinars for Serb volunteers.  Do you see that?

24        A.   I do see that, but I didn't know about any of this.  I mean,

25     which way they were paid or whether they were paid.  I mean, I just know

Page 30453

 1     they didn't stay for long.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So I think you said they came for a couple of days.  They

 3     didn't take a line, and then they left.  Boro Radic's group and

 4     Jovo Ostojic's group, Serb volunteer group, fought with your troops, did

 5     they not?

 6        A.   Well, in which area?  They did not fight side by side with us.  I

 7     accept that the only ones who fought were those who received assignments

 8     from their superiors and carried these assignments out successfully,

 9     defended the front line, stayed at the line, and so on.

10        Q.   Your troops took the Hrasnic elevation at -- trig elevation

11     861 [sic], didn't they?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   This was around the 9th of August, 1992?

14        A.   Hresa?  Hresa is not even within the tactical group or was not at

15     that point in time.  This was at the entrance towards

16     Paliv [as interpreted].

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Hrasnic.  If we can have number 65 ter 24080.

18        Q.   This is an article from the "Nas Glas" which is a newspaper in

19     Vogosca municipality, is it not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   It's dated the 11th and 12th of August, 1992, and the article is

22     entitled:  Elevation 681 has fallen.  I'm sorry I said earlier 861.  I

23     meant 681.  And in this newspaper article, Boro Radic talks about being

24     in a fierce action with the Vogosca Brigade and the Serbian volunteers

25     and that the elevation 681's finally fallen the day before yesterday and

Page 30454

 1     then you're also quoted in this article:

 2             "'We pushed them towards Barica and Kobilja Glava and they have

 3     no chance of ever coming back here,' says Miladin Trifunovic, the

 4     commander of the Vogosca Brigade, saying that 'the Serbian troops will go

 5     even further.'"

 6             And then down the bottom of the article it's a quote by

 7     Jovo Ostojic, the commander of the volunteer group:

 8             "'They offered resistance but they stood no chance.  By capturing

 9     this elevation the day when the idea of the liberation of the Serbian

10     people and the Serbian countries in this area will get realised is

11     getting even closer.  We are sending a message out to those Alija's

12     wretched minions that they had better surrender because shall get them

13     and punish them sooner or later,' says Jovo Ostojic commander the

14     volunteer group."

15             And then you're quoted again:

16             "And another thing, the Serbian volunteers will not leave this

17     territory until the Serbian people here have won their final victory.  We

18     are here to help but Vogosca can also be proud of their heros and

19     yesterday those were Miladin, Minja, and Dragan."

20             Sorry that wasn't a quote by you, that was a quote in the

21     article.  So does this refresh your memory as to whether you fought with

22     Boro Radic's group and Jovo Ostojic's group?

23        A.   Let me just take a look at the date.  August, isn't it?  One time

24     the Muslim forces took this feature from us, and then they were down

25     there and --

Page 30455

 1        Q.   The question was does this refresh your memory as to you fighting

 2     with Jovo Ostojic's Serb volunteers and Boro Radic's group?  And that

 3     these --

 4        A.   Yes.  I'm trying to explain what things were like to you.

 5        Q.   I think it requires a yes or a no answer --

 6        A.   I'm not saying that --

 7        Q.   -- you either recall it or you don't.

 8        A.   I recall it, but you won't let me explain how long they were

 9     there.  I said in the beginning that they were there for a few days, two

10     or three days in Vogosca, and as soon as they had one or two wounded, I

11     can't remember exactly, they left the line and went away from there.

12     They didn't want to stay on.

13        Q.   Another Serb paramilitary group, the Aco legion.  Do you recall

14     those -- that group of soldiers under the command of Aco coming to

15     Vogosca?

16        A.   Masses of groups came and passed by.  Some stayed on for a few

17     days and left, others left immediately.  How can I know?  It was the

18     beginning of the war.  I cannot remember this one -- what's he called,

19     Legija?

20        Q.   Well, didn't you say in your statement that you gave -- in

21     December 1992 that a group of 70 soldiers came from Vogosca and in fact

22     that they were engaged by Mirko Krajisnik - that's Momcilo Krajisnik's

23     brother - and that the day after they were also engaged in Vogosca by

24     Rajko Koprivica?  Do you recall saying that in your statement?

25        A.   I remember saying that in my statement, and I said that these

Page 30456

 1     groups probably came as instructed by Rajko Koprivica and Mirko Krajisnik

 2     and their task was to be placed under the command of the Vogosca Brigade.

 3     They were there for a few days, they did not want to carry out the tasks

 4     that were given to them by the Vogosca Brigade, and then they were seen

 5     off.  Where they went off to afterwards I don't know.

 6        Q.   What about Seseljevci, paramilitary group called Vaski?

 7        A.   What's the name.

 8        Q.   Vaso Vidovic's group.  He was also known as Vaski.  Do you know

 9     who I'm talking about?

10        A.   Vaske.  That group did not operate in the area of Vogosca and was

11     not in Vogosca.  They were in the area of Ilijas.  Vaske's group did not

12     operate in the area of Vogosca.  They operated in the area of Ilijas.  In

13     exceptional situations they came to the area of Zuc.  Once they came to

14     Zuc under the command of major -- major - what is his name? -- the then

15     brigade commander anyway to help us save the situation so that the

16     Muslims could not get through.  As far as I know, Vaske's units was

17     there.  I mean, I'm speaking on my own behalf.  It was under the command

18     of the Ilijas Brigade.  It was within the command of the Ilijas Brigade.

19        Q.   You actually -- they actually fought alongside of you or your --

20     your troops at Gola Brdo which you also mentioned this morning.  And you

21     said, did you not, in a statement that you gave in December 1992 that

22     Gola Brdo was claimed several times and so the Ilijas platoon with Vlaske

23     and part of the Ilijas Brigade came to Gola Brdo.  And you said that your

24     men and I, meaning yourself, relieved the platoon led by Vlaske.  Do you

25     remember saying that?

Page 30457

 1        A.   I remember that that's what we said and that's the way it was.

 2     Our people were exhausted from the 8th of December all the way up until

 3     the end.  There was fighting all the time.  Now, was it the 8th or the

 4     5th of December, whatever, I really cannot say, but throughout December

 5     there was this fierce fighting in Gola Brdo and we lost lots of our men.

 6     They were exhausted and we asked the Ilijas Brigade for help and then

 7     this unit of Vaske's came from the Ilijas Brigade and they helped us keep

 8     Gola Brdo and we got a bit of a rest.  We consolidated our ranks and we

 9     took the front line again.

10        Q.   Yeah.  So you agree that you were fighting with them.

11        A.   With Vaske's unit, yes.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have no further questions.  And may I tender

13     the document that's on the screen, Your Honour.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6003, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Did we hear the witness's comment to answer

18     regarding the citation from him on this newspaper "Nas Glas"?  Do you

19     confirm having said that, Mr. Trifunovic, to "Nas Glas"?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite follow the entire

21     text, so let us see what was said.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I quoted two parts, and then as I

Page 30458

 1     was reading the second quote, I -- I said that I had made a mistake and

 2     the second part wasn't a quote from the witness, it was only the first

 3     part.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The second paragraph refers to you,

 5     Mr. Trifunovic.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  The paragraph that starts:  "Most

 7     importantly, the victory was one with no losses," that paragraph.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The comment was probably correct.

 9     At the time in this area, we had a very bad position up until this day,

10     and then we made an effort to improve our positions, and then we managed

11     to get out of these small elevations from where visibility was better,

12     and we thought that we were safer up there at those features.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency.  Good morning

16     to all.  After such an exhaustive cross-examination, there are certain

17     topics that require re-examination.

18             Could we please have 1D6600.  Can we please have that in e-court.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Trifunovic, you were asked quite a bit about

21     your targets of fire, how far away Sarajevo was, so now I'd like to ask

22     you to take a look at this.  Could you please tell us whether you can

23     recognise what this is in this satellite image, and can you tell us what

24     is what here?  Kosevo, the Bare cemetery, et cetera.

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 30459

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help

 2     Mr. Trifunovic now so that he could mark certain locations in this

 3     photograph.  Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Would you please circle Pretis, the factory Pretis.

 6        A.   This is the stadium; right?

 7        Q.   Can we see in this image Blagovac, the Pretis factory, the blue

 8     roofs?  Can you see Vogosca in this image?

 9        A.   Well, my glasses are very bad, and I really cannot -- I can't

10     quite find the road leading from the stadium towards this area.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's make it easier.  Can you see the hills?  You

12     see the Bare cemetery, and these hills here.  Could you tell us what

13     hills these are?

14        A.   This is the Hum hill.

15        Q.   Would you please circle the Hum top, the top of the Hum hill.

16        A.   Well, it's an elevation here, up here somewhere.

17        Q.   Very well.  Could you please mark Zuc and Orlic.

18        A.   Well, Zuc and Orlic is the plateau to the left.  Actually, to the

19     right here from Hum running all the way along this ridge towards Vogosca.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please mark Hum with 1 and then 2 and 3 for

21     the road or the line that is an indication for Orlic and Zuc.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you orientate yourself now?  Could you

24     please see where Ugorsko is, Barica?  Would you be able to market

25     separation line?  In other words, how far did their area stretch and

Page 30460

 1     where the Serbs were?

 2        A.   Well, there are no elevations.  All this area from Hum towards

 3     Zuc and Orlic, and this is between trig points 850 and trig point 830,

 4     that's a hill, a slope, doing down towards Vogosca.  That's where we

 5     were.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, could the Court Usher please

 8     assist and help the witness and activate the blue line.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you please slow us the lines where you were and who held

11     the dominant positions.

12        A.   Well, we were at trig point 830.

13        Q.   Oh, okay.  Very well.  Now, could you please mark the separation

14     line on the side facing Vogosca.

15        A.   Well, approximately like this.  There were no trig points here.

16     I can only orientate myself based on the terrain.  I believe this is how

17     it went, and here at the bottom I believe this was where Pretis was.  So

18     we were along this slope towards Pretis, Hotonj, and then towards

19     Poljine, all the way here.

20        Q.   Can you see Kobilja Glava and the Bare cemetery?  Can you now

21     find your bearings?  I believe this is the new settlement there near

22     Bare.  Could you please extend this line all the way to the Kosevo

23     stadium or, rather, above the Kosevo stadium.  In other words, what was

24     the area that your brigade held?

25        A.   Well, here it -- our brigade held the territory from Pretis and

Page 30461

 1     then it separated the upper and lower parts of Hotonj and stretched all

 2     the way here to the border with Poljine.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, would you please put an M on one side of the

 4     line and then an S on the other side of the line.  S for Serbs and M for

 5     Muslims.

 6        A.   I see.

 7        Q.   And also the zones.  In other words, all this area left of the

 8     line, all that was under the control of the Muslims?

 9        A.   Well, yes.  This area towards the cemetery, the Kosevo stadium,

10     and so on.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Does that also relate to the tops of the hills?

12        A.   Well, yes.  All these elevations, the highest elevation between

13     Vogosca and Sarajevo is the Hum hill, and then the Zuc Hill, 877 trig

14     point, and then we have trig point 850, and then down to trig point 830,

15     which is almost in the urban area of Vogosca.  This is where we stopped,

16     at trig point 830, and then we went down this slope towards Vogosca and

17     cut the communication between Sarajevo towards -- and Kobilja Glava.  We

18     went through the Pretis area and separated this part into the left and

19     right areas.  This area was under the Muslim command, and here we managed

20     to link up with the units at Kobilja Glava or thereabouts.

21        Q.   When Ms. Sutherland asked you about where you opened fire and

22     what artillery you used, could you tell us what targets the artillery

23     engaged?

24        A.   Most frequently the fire was open at Hum hill.  In other words,

25     trig point 877 and 830.  As we lost one trig point after another, they

Page 30462

 1     would pull up their weapons and open fire from there and we had to return

 2     the fire.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you see Sarajevo, the centre of town, and did

 4     you open fire on Sarajevo centre?  Did you engage Sarajevo at all?

 5        A.   Well, we couldn't see any part of Sarajevo, not from where our

 6     positions were.  So there was no need for us to engage targets we

 7     couldn't see, but we couldn't also reach those targets, the targets that

 8     would be in the centre or thereabouts.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please sign and date this document.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would like to tender it.  My

11     apology to the interpreters.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you tell me, please, what the

13     date is today?  The 27th; right?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2447, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would now request

19     65 ter 24175, please, on the screens.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Please take a look at this document.  I asked for this document

22     because it involves your human resources, both volunteers and -- now,

23     would you take a look at this, please.

24        A.   Well, I've been reading it.  Please bear with me.  I've read it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you're addressing Mladic directly.  In other

Page 30463

 1     words, you were all the way pushed to the wall.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is it true that your men were exhausted, that they were bringing

 4     in fresh forces?  And here it says, "We have a lot of wounded and killed.

 5     Help before it is too late."  Is that how it was?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, how did these fighters get killed or wounded?

 8        A.   Well, I believe I mentioned a few moments ago that in December,

 9     from early December, perhaps even late November, enemy forces, in other

10     words Muslim forces, attacked persistently this part, the general plateau

11     of Zuc, and they pushed us all the way back to elevation or

12     trig point 830, even beyond, and these positions were very unfavourable

13     for us.  Throughout the month, in other words, we were under attack the

14     whole month, and we had many casualties, many people were killed, many

15     wounded.  We were -- we had a shortage of resources, of medical supplies

16     and other supplies, so we asked for assistance from General Mladic and

17     the Main Staff, and we said we needed help that night or it would be too

18     late the next day.

19        Q.   Well, what did that mean, that it would be too late the following

20     day?

21        A.   Well, I can't even imagine what disaster this would have spelled

22     had the Muslim forces pushed through and entered the Vogosca area.  In my

23     view, it would have led to chaos, and the line where we stopped was some

24     50 to 100 to 150 metres.  Each one of these fighters had their homes in

25     the back, in the rear, and we could not allow them to pass through

Page 30464

 1     because had they done that, there would be chaos.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you have before you any such incidents where

 3     Muslim forces would have entered Serb settlements and chaos would follow?

 4     I don't mean Vogosca, but did you know about any other incidents in

 5     Cemin [phoen] or Pofalici, around Sarajevo?

 6        A.   Well, we did hear about Cemin and Pofalici.  There was a small

 7     Serb village.  They entered this small village.  There were no soldiers

 8     there.  There were just older men, women, and children.  They were in a

 9     forest totally cut off from the surrounding world.  They entered this

10     village, and they killed everyone they found there.  In other words,

11     there was a general slaughter, catastrophe.  So this was what we had

12     before our eyes, and since Vogosca had many more people the chaos would

13     have been far greater, many more casualties.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to tender this document.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2448, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now have

18     1D40000, 1D40000.  Unfortunately, we don't have a translation for this.

19     I didn't even realise we would need it, but we have requested the

20     translation.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Please tell the Trial Chamber who issued this document and when.

23     Or, rather, where this document were received -- was received, and if we

24     look at the top, we can see where it was sent from.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

Page 30465

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, with no English translation, the

 2     Prosecution's a bit blind-sided as to whether they can raise an objection

 3     as to whether this is something that comes out of cross-examination or

 4     not.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we wait a bit more to hear the question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see this was issued

 7     by the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, the General Staff of the

 8     armed forces of the SFRY, the 3rd administration.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us the date?

11        A.   The 24th of August, 1991.  I'm not sure, but I believe that's

12     1991.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And it is addressed to the military command in

14     Hadzici; correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  To the command of the VGU Hadzici.

16        Q.   To this -- personally to this Muslim -- could you read that

17     portion out.  Who was it sent to?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  What's Mr. Karadzic's question about this

20     document?  He needs to put a question before he just gets the witness to

21     read chunks of the document out.  I need to know what the question is to

22     determine whether it's an objectionable question.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 30466

 1        Q.   Well, Mr. Trifunovic, you were asked about the pay that the

 2     volunteers received.  Could you tell us what this document provides for

 3     in terms of the status of the volunteers, bearing in mind that it is from

 4     the ministry of defence of Yugoslavia, that this document was issued

 5     about a year -- or, rather, half a year before the war began?  Could you

 6     tell us what you find in the first, second, and third paragraphs?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but the witness can

 9     answer any question put by Mr. Karadzic without -- what Mr. Karadzic is

10     asking him to do is basically read out the first three paragraphs of this

11     document and give his answer in relation to the question that's put.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'll try this way:

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Trifunovic, did you know how the status of volunteers was

15     regulated in the defence of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

16        A.   Each volunteer who joins the former Yugoslavia was on a list.  He

17     was registered and listed and was paid out according to the laws that

18     were still in force in the former Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted

21     with a MFI indication --

22             JUDGE KWON:  You didn't put a question --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- pending a translation?

24             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think you put any questions with respect to

25     this document, but I don't see any problem putting this document to the

Page 30467

 1     witness.  What is your question about this document?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I wanted Mr. Trifunovic to

 3     take a look at the document and then to put a question to him.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Trifunovic, this document from 1991, does it specify the

 6     regulation -- the regulating of the rights and responsibilities of

 7     volunteers?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, was this still in the former Yugoslavia, and was

10     it also applied in our parts?

11        A.   Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I believe this is

13     sufficient now.

14             JUDGE KWON:  What's the passage relevant to the payment of the

15     volunteers?  Could you ask the witness to read out that passage.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Would you please read item 2.

18        A.   "During military service, volunteers mentioned in item 1 of these

19     rules are to be paid in accordance with instructions on the manner of

20     payment of conscript who were drafted in order to serve their military

21     service in the Yugoslav People's Army, the official military gazette

22     number 20/86, 24/89, and 16/91."

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now read paragraph 1, please.

24        A.   "Pursuant to the provisions of Article 119 of the Law on

25     All People's Defence, Official Gazette of the SFRY number 21/82 and

Page 30468

 1     35/91, volunteers who are drafted in the JNA have the same rights and

 2     responsibilities as conscripts."

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Does this mean that as early as 1982, this issue of

 4     volunteers was actually regulated and that it was just renewed in 1992 --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  1991, interpreter's correction.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so, because I, for

 7     instance, have a brother who was drafted by the JNA in 1991, and he

 8     enjoyed all the rights that all the other active-duty personnel enjoyed.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did they -- does this mean that they were

11     duty-bound to pay salaries to these volunteers who went to fight?

12        A.   Well, I believe so, because this law was still in force.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Were you familiar of a crime committed by Ostojic,

14     Vaske or Aco, aka Legija, and their units?  I know they were not under

15     military command but did they commit any crimes in that status?

16        A.   I'm not familiar of such crimes.  As for Ostojic's detachment or

17     whatever it was called, I wanted to see them out of my area of

18     responsibility, because he did not wish to man the front lines or be

19     placed under military command.  He wanted no other officer in his area

20     save for himself.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted now?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification, but I note

24     the date of this document seems to be 24th of November, not August.  In

25     light of the bottom part of the document.  Yes.  Shall we give the

Page 30469

 1     number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  MFI D2449.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It may have been filed in October,

 4     but --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No.  I said 24th of September.  If I said November,

 6     it was misspoke.  24th of September, yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we have 1D298.

 8     And we have a translation in P1134.  It's the same document, but the

 9     original in the Serbian language can be more easily read in 1D298.  Thank

10     you.  As for the English version could we have P1134.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You were asked about how the prisoners why used.  Is there a

13     difference in our language between a prisoner and a prisoner of war, and

14     what do these categories mean?

15        A.   A prisoner is someone who was captured at the lines.  As for -- a

16     prisoner of war was captured at the lines, whereas a detainee or a

17     prisoner is someone who broke the law.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You said you understood this instruction from the

19     minister, which is P6000.  Perhaps we can see it on the next page.  In

20     any case, the way you interpreted it was that when you asked for the

21     prisoners to perform work was not in contravention of the instructions;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at P2338.

25     2338 P, Prosecution exhibit.

Page 30470

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   How often were cease-fires agreed on, and do you know whether the

 3     prisoners performed the work required during times of truce or cease-fire

 4     or not?

 5        A.   We tried in any case to fortify our lines following a retreat by

 6     Muslims.  As soon as there was a lull or a cease-fire, we tried to dig in

 7     and fortify.  We were aware throughout the war that we were not able to

 8     return our lost lines because of the shortage of personnel.  This is what

 9     we tried to do with as little effort as possible.

10        Q.   When it says here to assist us in the digging of trenches, does

11     it mean that you were digging alongside the prisoners?

12        A.   Everyone dug together so that it would be done as quickly and as

13     well as possible.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at 1D226979.  It has to do with the way

15     the authorities treated paramilitary groups, first and foremost

16     Mr. Radic.  First of all, as you mentioned on day one, that Boro Radic

17     was well known since before the war.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   How did people know him?

20        A.   Well, I don't want to tell lies, but he was known as a person who

21     engaged in certain actions such as crime, theft, et cetera.  I don't

22     know.  In any case, the police were aware of him.

23        Q.   First of all, you said he was in the Patriotic League.  Who did

24     that organisation belong to?  Whose formation was it?

25        A.   The Patriotic League was a Muslim force which was set up under

Page 30471

 1     their law.  They started taking part in the war as of 30th of April,

 2     1991, a full year before we started participating in the war.

 3        Q.   We do not have this translation either, but could we please zoom

 4     it in.  I'll read it out:

 5             "The Kajic family, Mato (the father) and Zeljko (the son)" --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can Mr. Karadzic put a question before he brings

 8     a document up on to the screen.  What's the -- what's the question for

 9     the witness?

10             JUDGE KWON:  It's related to -- it seems to be related

11     Boro Radic.  Can you not wait till we hear his question?  In order to put

12     the question, I think he needs to read out the portion.  I see a problem

13     of presenting a document not interpreted, but I think we can fairly wait

14     to his -- to hear his question.

15             Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Could you please read out the three lines out loud.

18        A.   "The Kajic family, Mato (the father), as well as Zeljko (the son)

19     are to protect them."

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpret's note:  It is not clear whether they

21     need to be protect or they're supposed to provide protection.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They are threatened by Boro Radic

23     (have a talk with him.  The main man knows why. ) Convey to the main man

24     immediately."  Signed Zora.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 30472

 1        Q.   What does this tell to you?

 2        A.   Well, Boro Radic was the kind of person who took no one into

 3     account.  He only did what he liked.  And for some reasons of his, he

 4     threatened these people, although I don't know why.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's stop here.  Do you object to this line of

 6     questioning, Ms. Sutherland?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Your microphone, Ms. Sutherland.  Did you say no?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.  I said no, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We have a part missing.  What does it say following Kajic?  They

13     need to protect it.  Is that what it says?

14        A.   Yes.  "They need to be protected.  They are being threatened by

15     Boro Radic.  Have a talk with him.  The main man knows why.  Convey this

16     to the main man immediately.  Zora."

17        Q.   Thank you.  What does this document tell you?  First of all, this

18     Kajic family, what was their ethnicity?

19        A.   If I go by their first and last names, I'd say they were Croats.

20        Q.   So what does this tell you about the civilian authorities sending

21     this telegram vis-a-vis their protection from Boro Radic?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, there's no evidence on the record

24     that this was sent by the civilian authorities.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It was leading.  Could you formulate your

Page 30473

 1     question again.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did you know that the authorities were in touch by way of coded

 5     telegrams?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know who was Zora 112 and who would be the main man?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Does this tally with how you saw the authorities as to their

10     protection they provided to members of other ethnicities?

11        A.   You can probably see that throughout my testimony.  We've tried

12     throughout, including my military command and the civilian authorities,

13     to provide as much protection as possible to any person and family

14     irrespective of their religious or ethnic affiliation, especially those

15     who had no rifles and who did nothing wrong.  We had people who caused

16     trouble for us, too, and we simply wanted them out, to have as few of

17     them as possible.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat with your microphone.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  This is a matter that

23     could have been dealt with in examination-in-chief if Mr. Karadzic wanted

24     to bring this out.  It's not something I think that stems from

25     cross-examination, the protection of other ethnic groups.

Page 30474

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Was it not related to the issue

 2     regarding Boro Radic?  Let's continue here.  Let's continue.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I relied on this

 4     document because there was an implication that the civilian authorities

 5     were not honest in their attempts to prosecute people who broke the law.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No submission at the time.  Let's continue.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you,

 8     Mr. Trifunovic, for your effort and for coming here twice.  Thank you for

 9     your testimony, and this concludes my questions.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I'd like to tender this

12     MFI'd.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark this telegram for identification.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D2450, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your testimony,

16     Mr. Trifunovic.  Mr. Karadzic told you that we thank you for coming to

17     The Hague twice to give it.  Now you are free to go.  Have a safe journey

18     back home.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, Ms. West will be leading the next

23     witness, so we'll need one minute to swap places.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we rise for five minutes in order to prepare

25     for the next witness?  Five minutes.

Page 30475

 1                           --- Break taken at 12.07 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             MS. WEST:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

 5     Your Honours.  Mr. President, may I request a 90(E) warning, please.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Could the witness take the solemn

 7     declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  VELIMIR DUNJIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

13     comfortable.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dunjic, before you start giving evidence, I

16     would like to draw your attention to a particular rule here at the

17     Tribunal.  Under this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a

18     question from the Prosecution, the accused, or from the Judges if you

19     believe that your answer will incriminate you.  When I said

20     "incriminate," I mean that something you say may amount to an admission

21     of your guilt for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you

22     have committed an offence.  However, even if you think your answer will

23     incriminate you and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal

24     has the discretion to oblige you to answer the question, but in such a

25     case the Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a

Page 30476

 1     way shall not be used in evidence in other case against you for any

 2     offence other than false testimony.

 3             Do you understand that, sir?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Karadzic.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Dunjic.

 8        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D6252 in

10     e-court.  There's an English translation as well.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Dunjic, did you give a statement to my Defence team, and do

13     you see that statement before you on the screen?

14        A.   I did give a statement, and I see it on the screen.

15        Q.   I have to ask you something, and I have to remind myself of the

16     fact that we need to pause between question and answer in order not to

17     exhaust the interpreters and also in order not to omit something

18     important.  So please bear that in mind.  Thank you.

19             Now, does this statement reflect everything that you could have

20     said to the Defence team?

21        A.   Well, this statement that I gave does reflect everything I could

22     have said to the Defence team, bearing in mind the circumstances

23     involved, namely that 20 years had elapsed, but basically this is it.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read it, and did you sign this statement?

25        A.   Yes.  I read it, and I signed it in my own hand.

Page 30477

 1        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today in

 2     court as they had been put to you, would your answers be the same as

 3     those provided in this statement?

 4        A.   In essence, they would be the same like in this statement.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I please

 7     tender this statement in accordance with Rule 92 ter.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  I think Mr. Karadzic also said "and the

 9     documents," which is my queue to rise and ask for permission to add the

10     associated exhibits to the Rule 65 ter lists.  These documents hadn't

11     been identified by our investigator when they took the original

12     statement, but upon coming to The Hague and being proofed by

13     Dr. Karadzic, we realised that they were necessary to the statement and

14     that's why they weren't on the 65 ter list.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, do you have any objections?

16             MS. WEST:  I do not.

17             JUDGE KWON:  While the Prosecution does not raise this issue, I

18     have to ask Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson about the relevance of these

19     documents, i.e., 27 documents.  How are they relevant to your case?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think if you look, for

21     example, in the paragraphs -- for each paragraph, for example,

22     paragraph 16 talking about the first document, it says that it shows that

23     large amounts of ammunition and weaponry were transported to Igman and

24     Sarajevo, which is also relevant to why artillery was being directed at

25     those areas.

Page 30478

 1             Then paragraph 17 shows that Muslim forces -- and it refers now

 2     here to the next ten documents, and it says they show that Muslim forces

 3     continually fired on the centre of Hadzici, and there were no military

 4     targets in Hadzici.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So pausing there, how is it relevant?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  It's relevant for different reasons depending on

 7     the document, but as -- if you look through paragraph 16 through --

 8     through 25 or 26, it shows the various reasons why they're relevant, to

 9     show the activity of the other side so that the shelling by the Serbs is

10     not on -- directed at civilian objects but are directed at military

11     targets such as paragraph 21.  So it's our position that this -- should

12     these documents show why --

13             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Take a look at paragraph 21 by way of example.

14     This document shows that once again the target of the attacks was

15     hospital in Blazuj.  I drafted and signed this document.  How is this

16     relevant?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  It's relevant to show the nature of the attacks

18     that were being directed against his brigade.

19             JUDGE KWON:  If it is not a tu quoque defence, how is it -- I

20     can't -- I find it difficult to follow the logic.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it's not a tu quoque defence.  Just because

22     the Muslims were attacking civilian objects doesn't give the Serbs the

23     right to attack civilian objects.  We're not claiming it for that reason.

24     We're claiming it to show what the conditions were under which this war

25     was being conducted and how basically the position that his brigade found

Page 30479

 1     themselves in in having to respond to the kind of attacks that were being

 2     launched against the area of their responsibility.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Once it was raised, can I hear from you Ms. West on

 4     this issue?

 5             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I don't disagree with you, and I came

 6     to the same conclusion in reading it.  However -- and if you look at the

 7     rest of this statement, you'll find that paragraph 6, 7, 9, 11 also fall

 8     into this same type of category.  For this witness -- made the decision

 9     not to file any formal motion in -- regarding these particular

10     paragraphs, although I think you will understand the Prosecution's

11     position on these paragraphs when you hear the cross-examination which

12     would be the most part not to address them at all.  I again don't

13     disagree with your comments, but I did acknowledge in going through this

14     that the defendant authenticated each and every one of these documents.

15     They were drafted by the witness himself, and he made some comment as

16     to -- regarding why they in his position -- in his -- from his

17     perspective they were important to his case.  We don't agree with that,

18     but in regards to your guidelines as to whether they're inseparable and

19     dispensable, I think they do reach that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  In the course of giving testimony, I think the

21     witness can touch upon these issues, but my question was whether we need

22     to admit all of these voluminous documents.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think that they -- given

24     that they corroborate the testimony of the witness and they're documents

25     that he authored, they're not tangential documents.  So I think that they

Page 30480

 1     should all be admitted.  Also, Mr. President, this is -- the context of

 2     the war has been the basis for admitting many, many exhibits by the

 3     Prosecution and hearing a lot of evidence, including things that took

 4     place even before the war, so I don't think that it's necessary to

 5     exclude documents that were authored by this witness that are

 6     incorporated into a statement.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Given the circumstances, we'll receive the -- all

 9     the documents, but in the future, the Chamber will keep a closer look

10     into the relevance and necessity of the documents.  So I would expect the

11     Defence to exercise the same caution in tendering documents, in

12     particular in the way -- by way of revising the statement.

13             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.  We'll give the number.  And

14     what's the number for the statement itself?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D2451, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And for the remaining associated exhibits, the

17     numbers will be given in due course by the Registrar.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellencies.  Now

19     I would like to read out the summary of Mr. Dunjic's statement in the

20     English language.

21             [In English] Velimir Dunjic graduated from the military academy

22     in 1975.  He discharged the following duties:  Platoon commander, company

23     commander, battalion commander, and brigade commander.  In the VRS he was

24     brigade commander.  He worked in the JNA and the VRS between 1990 and

25     April 1992, when the war broke out.

Page 30481

 1             In 1991, he had intelligence about the preparations of the

 2     Green Berets at Mount Igman and about the meetings of the

 3     Patriotic League in Sokolovic Kolonija.  During this time he also

 4     obtained information about the preparations to liquidate him by members

 5     of the SDA, a taxi driver and a driver from the city transport company

 6     Gras.  The State Security Service removed his son from Sarajevo because

 7     of fear the SDA might kidnap him to blackmail him.  When the SDA issued

 8     instructions to Muslims not to do their compulsory military service in

 9     the units of the JNA, he received the approval from the corps commander

10     General Djurdjevac to mobilise volunteers who wanted to receive training

11     and be in the reserve, and he hand-picked and personally trained the

12     future members of the reserve crews.

13             Velimir Dunjic was in the VRS from August or September 1992 to

14     January 1993 as commander of the Igman Brigade.  There were no incidents

15     with the Croats, but there were daily armed provocations and attacks from

16     the Muslim forces.  The task of the Muslim Special Police Units and

17     Juka Prazina's paramilitary units was to cut off his units' defence in

18     Sarajevo which would, in turn, cause the fall of the whole area which was

19     inhabited by tens of thousands of Serbs living on their hearths.

20             The zone of the brigade did not change significantly other than

21     the liberation of Doglodi and Azici after repelling the attacks of Muslim

22     paramilitary and police units and the liberation of Otis later on.  The

23     Muslim attack on Doglodi left six civilian casualties.

24             The deployment of the units of the brigade under his command did

25     not allow for the possibility of sniper fire.  He received information

Page 30482

 1     about numerous Serbian civilians and soldiers killed by Muslim snipers in

 2     the areas of Nedzarici, Rajlovac, Vogosca and along the road linking the

 3     area to Pale.

 4             In January 1993, three Serbian soldiers were killed when the

 5     positions of the Rajlovac Battalion were attacked from the Breza-Rakovica

 6     axis.  The attack was stopped, thus thwarting the Muslim operation.

 7     After that and the incident with General Galic, he acted in accordance

 8     with the written orders of the Supreme Command on his dismissal and left

 9     the VRS with which he had no more contact whatsoever.  In 1994, he left

10     the VJ, Army of Yugoslavia, also.

11             UN members and various humanitarian convoys passed through his

12     unit's zone of responsibility and UN aircrafts flew over it, bringing

13     humanitarian aid to Sarajevo.  It was a well-known fact that Muslim units

14     would launch attack two or three days after an aircraft carrying

15     humanitarian aid landed or following the passage of humanitarian convoys,

16     which allowed them to infer that those were being used to bring

17     ammunition and weapons to the Muslim units.  This was further established

18     when ammunition was found in the false bottom of the truck on two

19     occasions at check-points controlled by Serbian forces, and gunpowder was

20     found in medical oxygen tanks.

21             His unit did not commit any crime in contradiction to the

22     provisions of the Geneva Conventions while he was in command.  Measures

23     taken by him against members of his unit involved criminal reports

24     against soldiers for desertion and for selling infantry ammunition

25     through Kiseljak.

Page 30483

 1             In 1992, UN Polish forces were escorting over 100 men of

 2     Afro-Asian origin, all of whom were weight-lifting champions and agreed

 3     between -- aged between 20 and 30 who were leaving Sarajevo in the

 4     direction of Tarcin.  The explanation they gave was that the men were

 5     students who came to Sarajevo to study.  Supreme Command gave orders to

 6     allow them to leave in spite of the fact that it was clear that they were

 7     well-prepared and trained soldiers.

 8             [Interpretation] For the time being, I won't have any questions

 9     for Mr. Dunjic.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Have I missed something, Mr. Dunjic?

12        A.   Maybe there's something in the translation.  First of all, as far

13     as the attack is concerned, this is Christmas 1993.  It wasn't the

14     Rajlovac Battalion that was attacked, it was the Rakovac Battalion that

15     was attacked.  That's one thing.  Perhaps it's a misinterpretation.

16             And secondly, it's not that these Afro-Asians were prize

17     weight-lifters.  It was this Polish person who led them.  He was a world

18     champion in that field.  I think I said that accurately.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps this is just a mistake in

20     the summary, but in the statement that is clearly stated.  I can now let

21     Ms. West deal with the witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dunjic, do you understand English?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you put down your headphone for the moment.

25             Mr. Karadzic, I have difficulty understanding the first two

Page 30484

 1     sentences in para 8, which says:

 2             "I didn't have snipers in my brigade.  The deployment of units of

 3     the brigade under my command did not allow for the possibility of sniper

 4     fire from the positions of the warring sides."

 5             I don't know what it means.  Could you put that to the witness,

 6     live if necessary, and then we'll have a break.

 7             Could the usher kindly ask the witness to wear the -- yes.  He

 8     understood my body language already.

 9             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Dunjic, in relation to snipers in your brigade, you speak

12     about that in paragraph 8.  How come it was not possible to use them

13     because of the positions?  Can you explain that a bit?

14        A.   I can.  I mentioned in my statement that both warring sides, that

15     is to say our side and the Muslim side, the positions did not make it

16     possible for snipers to operate.  The positions were below Igman toward

17     Ormanj, towards Velezenik Kokorska [phoen].  So these were not urban

18     areas.  Those were the positions that I held, and I think I state this

19     correctly in my statement.  The Muslims did not open sniper fire at my

20     soldiers in my area of responsibility either.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You can show this to us on the map, can you not?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Now I think I can understand the -- the sentence.

23             Are you happy with these explanations, Ms. West?  Can we go along

24     with it?

25             MS. WEST:  Yes.

Page 30485

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will have a break now for half an

 2     hour and resume at five past 1.00 -- or I'm sorry, 45 minutes.  So we'll

 3     resume at 20 past 1.00.

 4                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Dunjic.  As you have noted, your evidence

 7     in chief was admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony, and now

 8     you'll be cross-examined by the Prosecution.

 9             Yes, Ms. West, please continue.

10             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           Cross-examination by Ms. West:

12        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  In your statement, at paragraph 1 you

13     indicate that you were the commander of the Igman Brigade from

14     August 1992 to January 1993.  Can you tell us exactly what date in August

15     you became the commander, please?

16        A.   As I stated, in August or September, as far as I could recall,

17     that's when I was appointed, but the exact date was the

18     4th of September, 1992, when I was appointed to the post of commander of

19     the Igman Brigade.  I took the liberty of bringing with me an excerpt

20     from records of the VRS, which is also stamped, where -- and certified

21     where what I've just said can be verified.

22        Q.   I'll take your word for it.  That was the 4th of September, 1992.

23     I also understand from the first paragraph that you were dismissed in

24     1993, in January of 1993, and you went to -- went and joined the VJ.  As

25     regards your dismissal in January of 1993 from the SRK, that was

Page 30486

 1     involuntary; correct?

 2        A.   You're correct.

 3        Q.   Tell us the circumstances of your dismissal.

 4        A.   Well, there was a systemic disagreement between me and the corps

 5     commander, and also there were some differences between us, which is why

 6     I received an order whereby I was dismissed from the post of

 7     brigade commander.  I would like to add that on two occasions I sent some

 8     communications to the Main Staff, and I even requested one time to be

 9     relieved of duty.  This was sometime in November or December 1992.

10        Q.   You were requested to be relieved of duty.  That's not in your

11     statement, is it?

12        A.   No, it's not in my statement.  I recalled it later, later on, but

13     you can check this information because it had been sent to the

14     Main Staff.

15        Q.   Okay.  And you just described the circumstances of your dismissal

16     as differences that you had between yourself and the SRK corps command.

17     Tell us what those differences were.

18        A.   Well, these were systemic differences.  There were differences in

19     the approach to the organisation of the army and the fighting itself, but

20     there was also a personal rift between me and General Galic, and that was

21     actually the final straw.  Now, because of my respect or dignity to

22     preserve the dignity of General Galic's -- perhaps we could move to

23     closed or private session so that I can elaborate.

24        Q.   We don't need to do that now.  If we do, we'll do that later, but

25     let's just move on.  Was the nature of your dismissal in January known to

Page 30487

 1     the VJ when you joined them in 1993?

 2        A.   Well, it probably was, because I remained in the Army of -- in

 3     the Army of Yugoslavia up until June 1994 sometime when at my request I

 4     left the JNA.  So I wasn't dismissed.  I left it on my own.

 5        Q.   Was there any delay in the process of you joining the VJ because

 6     of the unfavourable nature of your dismissal from the SRK?

 7        A.   No.  No.

 8        Q.   And did you require any references in order to be accepted by the

 9     VJ?

10        A.   Well, there probably were references, but I really wouldn't know

11     because the principle of the reappointments where there would also be an

12     assessment, a job performance evaluation, that would not have gone

13     through me.  It would have been sent through other channels.

14        Q.   Now, from September of 1992 through January of 1993, during your

15     reign, there was activity, military activity, at Zuc; correct?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.  There was fighting on Zuc.  However, Zuc

17     was outside of the area of responsibility of my brigade.

18        Q.   Okay.  And specifically in December of 1992, the ABiH was able to

19     regain control of Zuc; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you went to that area of conflict in December of 1992 even

22     though it was outside your area of responsibility, did you not?

23        A.   That's correct.  However, I failed to mention in my statement

24     that -- and my apologies if I am wrong about the exact dates, but

25     sometime in November, in late November, the corps command, after the

Page 30488

 1     death of Mr. Zoran Borovina, who was the commander of the Ilidza Brigade

 2     and my deputy, and after certain unfavourable circumstances in Rajlovac,

 3     I was appointed to be the commander over these three brigades, the

 4     Rajlovac, the Igman, and the Ilidza Brigades.  And I apologise once again

 5     for having omitted this detail, because as I looked at these documents

 6     that actually jogged my memory.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And that's a pretty big detail, you would agree; correct?

 8        A.   Well, you will understand that over 20 years have passed since I

 9     left that area and that as of 1994, I was not involved in any of this any

10     more.  I was not in the military any more.  I started a completely new

11     chapter, as it were, and I wanted also to put this behind me.

12        Q.   Okay.  So the Trial Chamber has heard evidence even today

13     regarding the events at Zuc.  Can you tell us who was it that ordered you

14     to go to Zuc?  And now I'm talking about December of 1992.

15        A.   Well, I wasn't at Zuc itself.  I was in the foothills of Zuc, in

16     the general direction of Rajlovac.  So there was the Rajlovac Brigade

17     there deployed, and then there was the Vogosca Brigade.  They linked up

18     at Mijatovica Kosa, a slope to the north of Sokolje, and I had a problem

19     there because the lines had collapsed as far as the Rajlovac Brigade was

20     concerned.  I managed to recapture those lines once and then the second

21     time.  So that's where I was actually active, not on Zuc itself, because

22     that was held by the Vogosca Brigade.

23        Q.   Okay.  So let's focus again on my question and it was who ordered

24     you to be, and you say, at the foothills of Zuc.  Can you give me the

25     name of a person?

Page 30489

 1        A.   I received a written order from the Chief of Staff of the corps,

 2     Colonel Dragan Marcetic, to the effect that I was the co-ordinator over

 3     these three brigades.

 4        Q.   What was your task in December of 1992?

 5        A.   The task in December 1992 was to prevent the fall of Rajlovac.

 6     If Rajlovac fell, all six north-western municipalities where the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska was deployed, and there were tens of thousands

 8     of civilians, would have fallen.

 9        Q.   Now, in paragraph 13 of your statement, you indicated that

10     Brne Gavrilovic's unit was in your zone.  Is that --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dunjic, do you have your written statement with

12     you?  No?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Yes, please continue, Ms. West.

16             MS. WEST:

17        Q.   I'm directing your attention to paragraph 13 of your statement.

18     That's the part where you spoke about Brne Gavrilovic's unit, and that's

19     where you said:

20             [As read] "Among the units which were in the zone when I came was

21     also the unit of Branislav Gavrilovic.  After a while, it was also -- it

22     also put itself under the brigade command and did not commit any crimes

23     in contradiction to the provisions of the Geneva Conventions while I was

24     in command."

25             Notwithstanding what you have in there, were you aware of his

Page 30490

 1     unit's reputation, his unit's nefarious reputation?

 2        A.   Well, first of all, the units and the situation within the units

 3     as they were, I found them as they were.  Now, I don't know whether

 4     you're aware, but pursuant to a decision of the Supreme Court of

 5     Republika Srpska, in the second half of 1992 the status of volunteers and

 6     units within the VRS was assessed, and it was concluded that volunteers

 7     did not have the attribute or the status of paramilitaries, but, rather,

 8     that they were members of the VRS, legal and legitimate; the only

 9     difference being in the way they joined.  Now, their tasks and

10     responsibilities were the same as those of all the other members of the

11     VRS.  So that was the first decision taken by the Supreme Court of the --

12     of Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dunjic, and we're going to spend a bit of time

14     speaking about the paramilitaries.  But my question for you, and please

15     listen to my question and try to be responsive if you can, is when you

16     came in in September of 1992, were you aware of Brne Gavrilovic's

17     reputation, the reputation of his unit?

18        A.   I was not aware of their reputation.  However, we are now

19     actually moving to the area of ideological differences.

20        Q.   No, we're not.  Thank you, Mr. Dunjic.  No, we're not.

21        A.   [In English] Okay.  Okay.  Okay.

22        Q.   So my next question for you, Mr. Dunjic, regards that specific

23     reputation.  If we could have D01080, please, and this is a MUP report in

24     June of 1992.  If we can have page 3 of the English and page 3 of the

25     Cyrillic.

Page 30491

 1             This is June 1992.  So this is in the period of time just before

 2     you came in.  And on page 3 there's a paragraph, and I want to share some

 3     of the information in here with you.  On page 3 of the Cyrillic, it's the

 4     second full paragraph.

 5             And the paragraph beginning with "In addition":

 6             "... the citizens complained to the Serbian public security

 7     station Ilidza reporting thefts and forceful expelling of Muslim citizens

 8     from Ilidza committed by Seselj's men."

 9             Now, were you aware that Gavrilovic had been appointed by Seselj?

10        A.   [Interpretation] Well, first of all I was not aware of that, and

11     secondly, we are talking about June.  But you agreed with me that I was

12     appointed as brigade commander on the 4th of September, which is a few

13     months later.

14        Q.   Exactly.  And what I'd like to know is when it appears that in

15     the summer before you came on that citizens in Ilidza were complaining

16     about Seselj's men, did these complaints ever reach your ears when you

17     got there in September?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   How many people were in his unit when you took -- when you came

20     in September?

21        A.   Well, you will understand that I don't know the exact number of

22     men, but I believe it was around 80 or so.

23        Q.   And the next sentence is:

24             [As read] "However, when the Serbian public security station

25     Ilidza decided that in such cases interventions were necessary, the

Page 30492

 1     president of Crisis Staff of Ilidza, Nedeljko Prstojevic and his deputy

 2     opposed this decision stressing that with Seselj's men there should be no

 3     messing around."

 4             In other words, they were doing it on their behalf, since

 5     Prstojevic and his deputy tasked them with it.

 6             Mr. Dunjic, did you know Nedeljko Prstojevic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please just have something

 8     clarified?  Do these Seselj's men, is that a reference to Brne because it

 9     doesn't say so here.

10             JUDGE KWON:  That's the subject -- yes.  Let us clarify that with

11     the witness first.

12             MS. WEST:  Okay.

13             JUDGE KWON:  If the witness is able to answer the question.

14             MS. WEST:

15        Q.   Mr. Dunjic did you hear that question?  Do you know if -- as

16     regards Seselj's men, if that refers to Brne Gavrilovic and his men?

17        A.   Well, let me say this:  I knew Mr. Brnovic [as interpreted] when

18     I arrived there, when I was appointed commander of the brigade because he

19     was president of the municipality in Ilidza.  And at that time I wasn't

20     really interested in the ideological differences, whether someone was a

21     member of the Radical Party or of the Communist Party of Republika Srpska

22     or the SDS.  I didn't care about that.  What I wanted -- all I was

23     concerned with was my fighters who were to obey my orders.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may just help here.  I believe

25     that the witness said that he did not know that Brne was appointed by

Page 30493

 1     Seselj.

 2        Q.   Let me just make a clarification.  At line 13, you said:  Let me

 3     just say that I knew this person when I arrived there when I was

 4     appointed commander of the brigade.

 5             Did you say Mr. Prstojevic you knew when you arrived there or

 6     Mr. Gavrilovic?

 7        A.   Well, you were asking about Prstojevic and I told you that I knew

 8     him.

 9        Q.   So you knew him before you arrived in September?

10        A.   I did know Prstojevic.  I had known him while I was -- well, I

11     knew him from when I was the battalion commander in Lukavica in 1991.

12     That's when we met.

13        Q.   Okay.  And during the winter -- excuse me, the fall and winter of

14     1992-1993, did you speak to Mr. Prstojevic?

15        A.   Almost every day.

16        Q.   Okay.  When was the last time you spoke to him?

17        A.   Well, I believe just before I left, because he offered that they

18     organise a send-off party for me.

19        Q.   So this would be 1993.

20        A.   Yes, in January 1993.

21        Q.   And that's last time you've ever had a conversation with him?

22        A.   Well, it is possible that we talked again, maybe some 15, 16, or

23     17 years later.  It is possible that we met.

24        Q.   What was the relationship between Mr. Prstojevic and Seselj's men

25     in Ilidza?

Page 30494

 1        A.   Well, again you're asking about things that happened before I was

 2     there and things that were outside of the area of responsibility of my

 3     brigade.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dunjic, do you have your statement, para 13 in

 5     front of you?  It reads like this:

 6             "Among the units which were in the zone when I came was also the

 7     unit of Branislav Gavrilovic.  After a while it also put itself under the

 8     brigade command and it did not commit any crimes ..."

 9             To me it sounds as if they had committed crime before they put

10     themselves under your command.  Is it true?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know, but I stated in my

12     statement that they did not commit any crimes while I was the brigade

13     commander.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I'll leave it to you, Ms. West.  Please

15     continue.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Ms. West speak into

17     the microphone that is in front of her, please.  Thank you.

18             MS. WEST:

19        Q.   Thank you.  And we were just talking about the relationship

20     between Mr. Prstojevic and Seselj's men in Ilidza, and you said that you

21     didn't know about that because it was things that happened before you

22     were there.

23             May we have P2302.  Let me now ask you about the relationship

24     between Mr. Prstojevic and Branislav Gavrilovic, the gentleman who was in

25     your unit.  And you're going to see a document in front of you and it's

Page 30495

 1     dated a few months before you get there.  I'll tell you it's dated in

 2     July.  However, it has to do with the housing of Gavrilovic and his unit,

 3     and it's a signed document from Mr. Prstojevic, and he says:

 4             [As read] "It is hereby approved to use the motel facility in

 5     Gladno Polje and the deserted summer houses in the vicinity for the needs

 6     of the Serbian volunteer units from the lines of the Serbian municipality

 7     of Ilidza MUP.

 8             "The commander of all Serbian Autonomous District Romanija

 9     volunteer units, Branislav Gavrilovic, will be conducting admission and

10     training of Serbian volunteers arriving to this area."

11             So, sir, my question for you is when you came in September 1992

12     and Gavrilovic and his unit were under your command, were they still

13     being housed through the offer of Mr. Prstojevic?

14        A.   Well, from the document that you've shown me, my only conclusion

15     would be that Mr. Prstojevic and Mr. Gavrilovic had a good relationship,

16     and my answer to your question would be, yes, they were still housed in

17     the same facilities as described in this document.

18        Q.   In your role as commander of Gavrilovic and his men, you gave

19     them orders and they performed them; correct?

20        A.   Within my brigade, I had between 2.500 and 3.000 men.

21     Gavrilovic's unit numbered 800.  And I wasn't Gavrilovic's commander.  I

22     was the brigade commander.  His unit was part of the brigade.  All of the

23     units carried out my orders.

24        Q.   So I'll take that as a yes.  And my next question is:  If

25     Gavrilovic's unit performed some action during this period of time that

Page 30496

 1     his unit was in your command, shall we assume that this action was the

 2     result of a task ordered by you and your chain of command?

 3        A.   Either I'm not receiving appropriate interpretation, or I

 4     misunderstand the question.  They were not outside the chain of command.

 5     It was a unit which carried out orders.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I didn't say they were outside of the chain of command,

 7     but I think I understand that it's your testimony that they were within

 8     your brigade, and they took orders under your chain of command; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And if they were committing illegal acts, you would know that,

12     wouldn't you?

13        A.   I repeat, I had 3.000 soldiers or between 2.500 and 3.000.  If I

14     had known of such things, I would have treated it much the same way in

15     cases of soldiers when I submitted criminal reports and dozens.  I would

16     go by the information received from the security organs and from the

17     members of that unit.

18        Q.   Now, we have P02296, and we're going to go to paragraph 74.  I

19     know you said earlier that you were unaware of Mr. Gavrilovic's

20     reputation and his unit's reputation, but you -- and you clarified that

21     you didn't know this coming in, but now I'd like to look at a period of

22     time in the fall of 1992 when you were the actual brigade commander.  And

23     this is a statement from Tihomir Glavas, who was the chief of the Ilidza

24     SJB at the same time that you were there, and in paragraph 74 he speaks

25     about this particular group.

Page 30497

 1             And at paragraph 74, he says:

 2             [As read] "The local group of Seseljevci was led by Branislav

 3     Gavrilovic, called Brne.  I personally had problems with this group

 4     because he was operating in Ilidza when I came.  His headquarters was in

 5     an orchard ... directives from military, political and police ministry

 6     ordered that these paramilitary forces be subordinated to military

 7     commands or be disbanded and even liquidated if they refused.

 8     Gavrilovic's unit was involved in crimes on our territory, thefts,

 9     looting.  His unit never wanted to fight in the woods or front lines.

10     They just went to places to fight where they could steal and loot such as

11     Otes and Doglodi.  They also fought at the airport settlement next to

12     Dobrinja."

13             Now this is during a period of time where this gentleman is there

14     at the same time that you're there.  And could you tell us were you aware

15     of these types of allegations against Gavrilovic's unit, these criminal

16     allegations?

17        A.   I see this document for the first time.  Perhaps I can clarify

18     something to you.  As a professional soldier, I was aware of the

19     existence of certain soldiers who are trained and ready to find -- to

20     fight in an urban settlement, whereas there are others who were trained

21     to fight in the mountains.  Many avoided fighting in urban areas, whereas

22     just as many avoided fighting in the mountains.

23             As for this document, I was not aware of it.  To me, it says

24     nothing.

25        Q.   Sir, you didn't answer my question.  Let's try this again.  I'm

Page 30498

 1     not asking whether you're aware of this document.  I'm asking whether you

 2     were aware of the criminal allegations at the time that you were there

 3     that were being voiced regarding Gavrilovic's unit.

 4        A.   I was not aware.

 5        Q.   And the next paragraph, the beginning of 75:

 6             "The reason they went into these areas was to steal from houses

 7     and apartments in those areas."

 8             Were you aware of those allegations?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   We move to paragraph 77.  You just mentioned that his unit was

11     under your -- under your command, and paragraph 77 this speaks to the

12     same subject.  This witness had been shown a document, and he said that

13     this is -- in this document there was a mention of a person named Vaske,

14     another Chetnik duke in the area of Ilijas who was prone to co-operating

15     with the army.  Therefore, he could be in conflict, "he" meaning

16     Mr. Vaske, with Gavrilovic's unit who were opposed to any co-operation

17     with the army.  What I meant by Vaske's unit co-operating with the army,

18     I received instructions from the police leadership that Vaske's unit

19     accepted to be subordinated into military command and Gavrilovic refused.

20             Mr. Dunjic, is it your testimony here today that Gavrilovic was

21     under the military command in your brigade?

22        A.   I have said so in the statement, and I stand by it.  He was under

23     my command in my brigade while I was at the helm of the brigade.

24     Whatever happened before or later is something I cannot answer to.

25        Q.   At this point I'm not asking you about what happened before or

Page 30499

 1     later.  I'm asking you about what happened while you were the commander

 2     of the brigade in September of 1992 through January of 1993.  During that

 3     period of time, is it your testimony that he committed no crimes?

 4        A.   I was not aware of that.

 5        Q.   And is it your testimony also that you were not aware of his

 6     reputation otherwise?

 7        A.   You see, I keep saying that I have -- had between 2.500 and 3.000

 8     soldiers, and the group or detachment of 80 soldiers was not my primary

 9     focus.

10        Q.   It was the position of the SRK corps command, was it not, that

11     paramilitaries should either be under their command or they should have

12     to leave; is that right?

13        A.   It is.

14        Q.   And if you had had any paramilitaries within your zone but not

15     under your command, you had a duty to inform your superiors, did you not?

16        A.   You mean the corps command?

17        Q.   Your superiors, yes.

18        A.   You keep imputing things.  I've already mentioned what the first

19     decision of the Supreme Court of Republika Srpska was, and I abided by

20     it.  In the area of responsibility of my brigade, I had no other unit

21     save for the detachment which I found there when I assumed my duties as

22     commander, brigade commander.

23             MS. WEST:  May we have D01076.

24        Q.   This is another MUP document, and this is coming closer to the

25     period of time when you started in September.  And if we can have page 3

Page 30500

 1     of the English at the bottom and page 2 of the B/C/S, at the bottom as

 2     well.

 3             This is another document that speaks about Gavrilovic's unit.

 4     And just to say again D01076.  This may be my mistake.

 5             Sir, before you came in, who was the brigade commander before

 6     you?

 7        A.   I think it was Kovacevic.

 8        Q.   Do you know why he left?

 9        A.   No.

10             MS. WEST:  May we have 65 ter 24197, please.

11        Q.   This is a document from August again, recognising this is right

12     before you came in.  This is a document from Tomislav Sipcic, and in it

13     he's reporting on general -- the general situation within the command,

14     and under number 4, at the end, he says:

15             "Moreover, very little is being done to disarm paramilitary

16     formations.  The local authorities are establishing and bringing in new

17     ones from the outside."

18             Now, when you came in September, did you understand this to

19     continue to be true?  Did you understand it to be the case that the local

20     political leadership were responsible for bringing in paramilitaries in

21     your zone?

22        A.   I am a soldier, a professional soldier.  As regards many things,

23     I tried not to meddle with the work of the civilian authorities.  You

24     keep going back to Mr. Sipcic's order.  I was not there at the time.  I

25     don't know.

Page 30501

 1        Q.   Okay.  But you told us that you spoke to Mr. Prstojevic quite

 2     often, and I understand in the fall and winter of 1992, you at least

 3     worked with him for a period of time.  In the course of that

 4     relationship, did you understand that the local political leadership had

 5     been responsible for bringing in paramilitaries and were bringing in

 6     more?

 7        A.   In the area of responsibility that I had there were no other

 8     units except for the one I found there.  I repeat, I did speak with

 9     Mr. Prstojevic as I did with all other municipal representatives in that

10     part of Sarajevo, but it all had to do with providing security and

11     securing logistics for the army like food, boots, burials of soldiers and

12     civilians, and taking care of their families.

13        Q.   But as I understand your testimony today, part of the army you

14     purport to be is Mr. Gavrilovic's unit, and so if Mr. Prstojevic then had

15     some connection with Gavrilovic's unit, which -- would you agree some

16     would have considered to be a paramilitary unit?

17        A.   Now you're asking for my opinion.  You have shown me a document

18     where Prstojevic on one hand secured accommodation for him, and on the

19     other he said that he had issues with Gavrilovic.  I'm not familiar with

20     the nature of their relationship.

21        Q.   Do you know if Prstojevic had any role in bringing Seselj's men

22     to the area?

23        A.   In my area of responsibility, I don't know of such thing.

24        Q.   Are you --

25        A.   And he did not.

Page 30502

 1        Q.   So either you don't know of it or he did not.  Please clarify

 2     your answer.

 3        A.   As regards my area of responsibility while I commanded the

 4     brigade, he did not.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And as regards to that area of responsibility while you

 6     commanded the brigade, are you aware of whether the republican level

 7     political leadership had a role in bringing in paramilitaries?

 8        A.   As far as I know, they did not.

 9        Q.   And what about before you came?  Are you aware of that leadership

10     bringing in paramilitaries before you came to that area?

11        A.   I was at the other end of the theatre.  I wasn't even in

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I don't know.

13             MS. WEST:  May we have P02228, please.

14        Q.   This is an April 1992 conversation between Seselj and Gavrilovic.

15     We won't read the whole thing, but towards the bottom of the English

16     Gavrilovic says:

17             "Everything's fine."

18             And then Seselj says:

19             "Look, I've just called Pale.  I can't find Radovan and nobody

20     can find him.

21             Brne:

22             "Yeah.

23             Seselj:

24             "But I left a message that if they didn't get our men out, we'll

25     withdraw all our men from the front lines and we'll never deploy them

Page 30503

 1     again."

 2             Would you agree with me that at least from that very short part

 3     that I read to you that Seselj is directing a complaint regarding his men

 4     to Karadzic?

 5        A.   You're obviously trying to suggest an answer.  I keep saying that

 6     I was not in the area at all at the time of this intercept.

 7        Q.   So let's go to the time when you were there in September of 1992

 8     and on.  When you were in command of Brne and his men, what role did

 9     Seselj take as to their deployment or task?

10        A.   As far as I'm concerned, he had no role to play.

11        Q.   By September of 1992 through the time that you left in January of

12     1993 or ordered to leave, Galic was the commander of the SRK; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14             MS. WEST:  May we have P05060, please.

15        Q.   Now, this is written on September 12th, so this is when you were

16     already in command, and it regards a meeting.  And this is a Galic

17     document, and we're going to go to number 3 in both documents.  And he's

18     talking about a meeting that he had with the SRK command, brigade

19     commanders, presidents of Municipal Assemblies, head of the military

20     departments and members of the General Staff.  Now, he had this meeting

21     on September 6, and you came into brigade command, as I understand it,

22     September 4th.  Do you remember attending a meeting a few days after you

23     started?

24        A.   I don't, but it is possible.

25        Q.   Okay.  And number 3 and speaking about this meeting, he says

Page 30504

 1     that -- that they should secure absolute concordance and unity --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we find the part in the document.

 3             MS. WEST:  Pardon me.  It's number 3.  It's page 1.  There we go.

 4     It's towards the bottom of both.

 5        Q.   And it says:

 6             "Secure absolute concordance and unity at all levels with

 7     civilian authorities and MUP forces and eliminate any creation of

 8     paramilitary and parapolitical and not allow any conflicts, because we

 9     have a common goal."

10             So when you came in in September, you were well aware that it was

11     Galic's position that there should be no paramilitaries within the VRS,

12     were you not?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. WEST:  65 ter 24198, please.

15        Q.   We're going to skip ahead a few months to see whether this

16     position changed or remained the same.  We'll now go to October 19th.

17     This is another Galic document, and we're looking under paragraph 4, and

18     it's the part that's underlined.  It's under "Morale":

19             "There are again incidences of bringing in paramilitary groups

20     and units from the outside under the guise of volunteer units.  Having

21     learned from previous experience, we believe that these groups will have

22     a very negative influence on the morale of the soldiers and the

23     population."

24             Sir, what was the view at the time as to why the paramilitaries

25     were a negative influence?

Page 30505

 1        A.   I don't know what other people thought, but I had no paramilitary

 2     units in my brigade.  The only unit that I found there was quickly put

 3     under my command.  I wasn't interested in anything else.

 4        Q.   All right.  But can you tell us in a general way because you are

 5     there at the time, you're attending these meetings, you had to be aware

 6     that there was a general notion that the paramilitaries had a negative

 7     influence.  Tell us what you understood the negative influence to be.

 8        A.   You didn't allow me to finish my answer when I mentioned the JNA.

 9     Perhaps it would have been clearer.  If you want a contextual explanation

10     regarding your question, I'd be happy to answer.

11        Q.   Only if giving a contextual explanation will tell us what the

12     negative influence was.  Can you do that?  Go ahead.

13        A.   You are suggesting an answer.  I'm telling you that paramilitary

14     units, in the heads of many officers of the former JNA, were paramilitary

15     only because they were called Vucjak, wolves, and other names.  By the

16     same analogy, the Deltas and the Seals are also paramilitary formations.

17     Those how those people reasoned, due to ideological differences, whereas

18     I was not interested in any ideological differences.

19        Q.   Okay.  So I've given you the opportunity to give us some context

20     here but we still haven't answered the question.  Would you agree with me

21     that at the time other people thought the paramilitaries were a negative

22     influence but it appears that you did not?

23        A.   No.  No.  I agree that that's what other people thought, but that

24     was for ideological reasons, in their minds, which were something I

25     couldn't comprehend.

Page 30506

 1             MS. WEST:  I'd like to tender this document, Your Honour.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6004, Your Honours.

 5             MS. WEST:  May we have P0230, please.

 6        Q.   Now, this is a November 1992 document from Galic.  It's a regular

 7     combat report, November 18th.  And under number 3 at the bottom of the

 8     English and bottom of the B/C/S, it's written:

 9              "The situation in the territory without significant changes.

10     However, a paramilitary formation consisting of about 25 men commanded by

11     Branislav Gavrilovic, aka Brne, is active in the Rakovica sector.  This

12     is a group of criminals whose behaviour is damaging the reputation of the

13     Republika Srpska Army in the eyes of the population in this territory."

14             Now, this is already in November of 1992, and their reputation

15     continues on.  Their nefarious reputation continues on.  By November were

16     you aware of this?

17        A.   Perhaps I can comment upon your ignorance.  I mentioned before

18     that there were 80 of them, whereas here we have 25.  There was an

19     obvious numerical difference save for some general remarks on the

20     negative influences which arose only due to ideological reasons.  If you

21     showed me proof that this or that person from that -- this or that unit

22     did this or that, then I can comment, and if -- had there been such

23     cases, I would have reported them.  I would have issued criminal reports.

24        Q.   So as I understand it, it's your position that at the time you

25     weren't aware of this and you've repeated a few times that there were

Page 30507

 1     only 80 men in his unit, yet there was 2.500 to 3.000 men in the entire

 2     brigade, suggesting that there might be a reason why you would not have

 3     known, but in this case the corps commander knows, somebody who is well

 4     above you and who is looking after far more people.  Why do you think he

 5     knows about this reputation yet you didn't?

 6        A.   Well, you're asking me about someone's reputation.  That's like

 7     assessments of ice skating where you say artistic impression.  Well,

 8     there was nothing specific that anyone would have come up to me with so

 9     that I could take certain measures.

10        Q.   Was your support of Brne's unit also supported by the local

11     authorities?  Specifically I'm speaking about Nedeljko Prstojevic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just intervene in the

13     transcript?  Mr. Dunjic said, "I didn't see any evidence that an act, a

14     criminal act, had been committed."  So that portion did not make it into

15     the transcript in his previous reply.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             MS. WEST:

18        Q.   Sir, my question was:  Were you aware -- was Brne's unit also

19     supported by the local civilian authorities?

20        A.   I don't know.  I don't know, and I don't know how I could have

21     supported it, because it was part of my brigade.  And I have made a

22     reference to the first decision taken by the Supreme Court of

23     Republika Srpska where the status of volunteers was clarified, and this

24     unit was a -- the commanders, the very commander's unit, and they were

25     from the same part from where the commander was, but they had ideological

Page 30508

 1     differences with the others.

 2             MS. WEST:  May we have --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let me try this.  Mr. Dunjic, do you agree this is a

 4     report by General Galic?

 5             Shall we show him the second page.  Colonel Galic and back to

 6     page 1.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not question it.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  In para 3 he refers to a certain group commanded by

 9     Branislav Gavrilovic.  Is he the same Gavrilovic you referred to in your

10     paragraph 13 who was allegedly under your command at the time?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is the same person.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Then can you explain us how -- why you say that they

13     didn't commit any crimes, how come the commander of SRK is referring to

14     him as leader of a group of criminals?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what the corps

16     commander meant by this, but as I've already said, I had no evidence, nor

17     did the corps commander provide in this report any evidence that any

18     crimes had been committed so that I could take action other than

19     generalised assessments.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West, please continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one thing in the transcript.

22     It's not stated clearly in the transcript that the witness said that that

23     unit, starting with the commander all the way down to the plain soldiers,

24     they were the local population, but ideologically they were affiliated

25     with Seselj.  They did not just come there.  And that is not clearly

Page 30509

 1     reflected in the transcript.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm having said that, Mr. Dunjic?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

 5             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  65 ter 09365, please.

 6        Q.   And just to back up for a moment, you say that "they were" --

 7     "they were the local population, but ideologically they were affiliated

 8     with Seselj."  This unit was affiliated with Seselj?  Brne's unit?

 9        A.   You cannot say affiliated with Seselj.  Ideologically they were

10     affiliated.  It wasn't that it was Seselj's unit while I was commander.

11        Q.   So we have a December 16th document from 1992, and this is during

12     the time where you had spoken earlier about being in the area of Zuc.

13     This is a report, a corps command report from Kosovac, and he speaks

14     about what happened at Zuc, and as we know from your testimony and a

15     previous witness, we understand in December that the ABiH took control of

16     Zuc.  And at the third paragraph he speaks about it being basically a

17     mess.  And then in the fourth paragraph he says:

18             "In the territory of municipalities, Hadzici, Ilidza, Rajlovac

19     and Vogosca, the main organiser of paramilitary formations is

20     Major Dunjic, commander of the Ilidza Brigade."

21             Now you're going to see this in B/C/S.  And we've got the

22     English.  Now, I can represent to the Court if you go to the B/C/S,

23     Dunjic is pronounced -- excuse me, spelled correctly.  And also if you go

24     to the B/C/S, it says the commander of the Blazuski Brigade.  So your

25     headquarters were located in Blazuj; right?

Page 30510

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So this Dunjic of whom they speak here, they're speaking about

 3     you; correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And do you deny that you were the main organiser -- organisers of

 6     the paramilitary units?

 7        A.   I absolute deny that.  And could you please tell me who it was

 8     that signed this document?  Because you said that this is a report of the

 9     corps commander.

10        Q.   No, I'm sorry.  If you heard that I misspoke.  I said it was

11     Colonel Kosovac, who was assistant for commander moral affairs.  But if

12     we continue on in this document I think you'll remember who Kosovac was.

13     It then goes on to say his position, meaning you, of the brigade

14     commander is a formality because he does not come to the brigade for

15     three days.  He put under his command paramilitary formations and some

16     special units.  He supplies them with the arms and munitions.  He took

17     out complete fighting technique from repairs enterprise and has made it

18     available to those formations.  It is clear now why he did expel the

19     management of enterprise.  In that area there is a belief that those are

20     the only units capable to save the Serb people and Dunjic was declared to

21     be the best Serb officer.

22             Sir, at least from this paragraph would you agree that it sounds

23     like you are less of a brigade commander and more of an organiser of the

24     paramilitaries yourself?  Do you agree?

25        A.   No.  No.

Page 30511

 1        Q.   All right.  And if we continue on, the next paragraph talks about

 2     the seriousness of the situation at Zuc in December, and as a result the

 3     command sent Kosovac, who is the author of this, and

 4     Lieutenant-Colonel Maljkovic to the area on the 8th to help in

 5     overhauling the situation.  I'm going to move to the next page in

 6     English.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the counsel please provide a reference in

 8     the original in B/C/S.  Thank you.

 9             MS. WEST:  Yes.  So we are on page 2 in both documents.

10        Q.   And it says:

11             "Unsatisfied with a general situation and a danger for this part

12     of the front, some municipality leaders, with the alleged approval by the

13     Presidency, decided to arrest commands of Rajlovac and Vogosca Brigade,

14     and the executor was Major Dunjic together with his men.  Besides command

15     of brigade, also Colonel Kosovac and Lieutenant-Colonel Maljkovic were

16     arrested."

17             Now, sir, you don't deny in September 1992 you were in the Zuc

18     area and you made some arrests; correct?

19        A.   Well, I denied that I was at Zuc.  I mean, I was below Zuc.  Let

20     us be precise.  I was in Rajlovac.  And it is correct that I arrested

21     Colonel Kosovac and Lieutenant-Colonel Maljkovic, and it is correct that

22     I arrested almost the entire municipality of Rajlovac.  And I think that

23     that was a brilliant move in order to save tens of thousands of the Serb

24     people.

25        Q.   Let's speak specifically about who went along with you.  This

Page 30512

 1     talks about your men.  Were these men from Brne's unit who were with you?

 2        A.   Part of them, yes.

 3        Q.   I also understand that there were political figures with you as

 4     well, specifically Ratko Radic from the Ilijas municipality, and

 5     Trifko Radic as well.  Do you remember that?

 6        A.   Ratko Radic was president of the municipality of Hadzici, and he

 7     was not with me.  Trifko Radic was not with me.

 8        Q.   Who specifically gave the order for you to make these arrests?

 9        A.   I did.

10        Q.   Was there anyone above you who gave the order?

11        A.   No.  No.

12        Q.   So were the one who originated this idea and made a decision to

13     arrest other commanders of brigades?

14        A.   Correct.  I'm the one who made the decision and issued the order.

15        Q.   It goes on to say:

16             [As read] "During the arrest, the most severe methods were

17     applied as it was about the most severe criminals.  For arresting

18     complete commands of brigade there was no justification because the

19     arrested men were the persons who remained in the brigade until the last

20     day.  Instead to arrest those who ran away, they arrested the persons who

21     remained.  By this act their brigades remained without leaders in the

22     moments of strongest offensive by the enemy.  And the following day also

23     the head of the corpus staff was exposed to mistreatment, Colonel

24     Marcetic.  And during these actions there were robberies and thefts of

25     military property."

Page 30513

 1             Sir, do you deny that during this entire event that crimes were

 2     committed?  Here robberies and thefts of military property.

 3        A.   It's not by accident that I asked you who it was that had signed

 4     this document.

 5        Q.   Sir, you can just give me a simple answer.  Were any crimes

 6     committed?  Were any thefts committed?  Yes or no?

 7        A.   Thefts, no.

 8        Q.   Any other crimes?  Looting?

 9        A.   I don't know because I was at the front line then.  After these

10     arrests I had to get the lines back, so I wasn't present there.  I'm

11     talking about the time after the arrest of these structures.

12        Q.   The last paragraph, the last paragraph in the English:

13             "That the Main Staff together with the Presidency of the

14     Republika Srpska evaluates the situation, that the leadership states who

15     support and who is behind all of this and then, on the basis of the

16     political decision, start ... serious cleansing of para-authorities of

17     para-army."

18             It appears here that they are labelling you as a paramilitary.

19     Do you disagree with that assessment?

20        A.   Well, after all of this happened, a meeting was held in the

21     municipality of Rajlovac that was attended by Mr. Krajisnik,

22     Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Mico Stanisic, Mr. Galic corps commander, and the

23     presidents of municipalities, these six municipalities in the north-west.

24     After my explanation with regard to the reasons for this arrest and

25     everything that was implied by that, namely that we should keep the

Page 30514

 1     lines, I received the support of one and all then.

 2             Your Honours, may I -- may I just explain something?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the only professional person

 5     in the brigade and my logic was military logic, the logic of a soldier.

 6     If I arrest those who outrank me, who had sent false reports to the

 7     brigade command, I mean the -- the commander of the brigade and the

 8     Chief of Staff of the brigade who had fled from that brigade, by

 9     arresting them and by arresting part of the municipal leadership, this is

10     what the soldiers would think.  They would start wondering what lay in

11     store for us, they would think if these people are being arrested, so

12     that's what I did.

13             MS. WEST:

14        Q.   Mr. Dunjic, you just described this meeting and you indicated a

15     number of people there including Mr. Galic, and you noted that at the end

16     of the meeting you received the support of one and all of them.  Are you

17     suggesting that as a result of this meeting Mr. Galic then gave you his

18     support?

19        A.   He didn't state his views, but the general conclusion of the

20     meeting was the one that I've already stated.

21        Q.   Okay.  So that conclusion excludes the opinion of Mr. Galic then;

22     correct?

23        A.   Well, I don't know if that's correct.  He didn't say anything.

24     He was not explicit.  He didn't explicitly say anything against that at

25     that meeting.  He didn't say anything explicitly against what I had done

Page 30515

 1     after I explained what I had done.

 2        Q.   Okay.  We will get to that.  But if you could just look at the

 3     B/C/S, please, and go to the very last paragraph, and I don't believe

 4     that this is in English.  Would you mind reading out that very last

 5     paragraph in B/C/S, please.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   Read it out loud.  My apologies.

 8        A.   "Also we propose that Major Dunjic urgently be dismissed from his

 9     duties, be arrested, and to have criminal proceedings instituted against

10     him because he overstepped his authority and because he disobeyed the

11     corps command."

12             This was signed by the man who I had arrested a day before that.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I'm not sure in regard to the time.  I

15     suspect I have at least another 15 minutes or so.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's time for adjournment for today.

18             Mr. Dunjic, we will adjourn for today and continue tomorrow

19     morning at 9.00.  Here at the Tribunal, we have a rule that the witness

20     is not supposed to discuss with anybody else about his or her testimony.

21     Do you understand that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that, and I understand.

23             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.43 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day

Page 30516

 1                           of November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.