Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30859

 1                           Tuesday, 4 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Shall we bring in the

 6     witness?

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Maletic.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Morning.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN MALETIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Maletic.

16        A.   Good morning to you.

17        Q.   Yesterday we left off with some photographs and we're going to

18     continue briefly with three more on the same subject.  I'd like us to

19     have a look, please, at 65 ter number 24121.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And I should note while we're waiting to see that

21     photograph, Your Honours, I've been in contact with the investigator for

22     the OTP who's responsible for matters dealing with Sarajevo and I'll be

23     able to advise the Court on the provenance of these photographs based on

24     the information I've received from him.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Maletic, this is a view from the roof of Lenjinova 6A

Page 30860

 1     which was taken in August 1996.  Does this show an area behind the

 2     enemy's front line?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be asked

 5     whether this is a photograph taken from Lenjinova and from what side of

 6     the river it was taken?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Probably it's the subject you can take up in your

 8     re-examination.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, and I'd like to tender this photograph,

12     please, Your Honours.  And with respect to this photograph, the

13     investigator did confirm that this was taken from Lenjinova 6A in August

14     1996 by an employee of the Office of the Prosecutor at that time.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. Edgerton, can you assist us with a small

16     matter.  Now, you described the photograph.  You said this is a view from

17     the roof of Lenjinova 6A taken in August, but isn't that evidence you're

18     giving?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  What I was doing, Your Honour, in light of

20     Mr. Robinson's concern regarding the provenance of the photograph is I

21     was informing everyone of the provenance of the photograph based on the

22     information I'd received overnight from the Sarajevo investigator.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Robinson, I should like very much to hear you

24     on this.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, and Judge Baird.  Well, you

Page 30861

 1     know, we don't dispute when the Prosecution makes a representation.

 2     Obviously we know that their representations are always made in good

 3     faith and based on facts, but we're not also ready to stipulate to any

 4     facts as has been our position from the very beginning of the case.  And

 5     it's our position that this evidence as to where these photos were taken,

 6     number one, should have been brought in the Prosecution's case if they

 7     thought it was important and/or can be brought in rebuttal if they're

 8     able to convince the Chamber that it meets the standard.  But based on

 9     the testimony of this witness, we don't see any foundation for admitting

10     the photo.

11             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much indeed.

12             A rejoinder, Ms. Edgerton, at all?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I just have your indulgence --

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  Indeed.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  -- I might just want to speak to Mr. Tieger about

16     this.

17             JUDGE BAIRD:  Indeed, yes.  Yes.

18             MR. TIEGER:  If I can speak to this, just -- sorry, I can't see

19     Judge Baird.

20             JUDGE BAIRD:  [Microphone not activated]

21             MR. TIEGER:  I'll move over here, Judge Baird.

22             JUDGE BAIRD: [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Baird, please.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I principally wanted to speak because I had the

25     discussion with Mr. Robinson last night after court in connection with

Page 30862

 1     this very matter, although in the presence of Ms. Edgerton, and the point

 2     I raised with him was that his concern seemed to be provenance.  We had

 3     encountered that issue during the course of this case countless times,

 4     that is, is there an issue about the provenance of the document or not?

 5     In many instances, the nature of a particular document precluded such an

 6     inquiry or obviated the need for such an inquiry.  Sometimes the nature

 7     of the document required someone, either the Defence or the Prosecution,

 8     to go back to their sources and identify the provenance so that the other

 9     party could be satisfied.  And we did that on an informal basis, that is,

10     neither party required the other to call a witness to demonstrate the

11     provenance in a classical fashion by adducing evidence from the

12     witness-stand.  That has been the practice of the case.  So when I

13     discussed that with Mr. Robinson last night, it was based on that

14     practice.  And he agreed - as I anticipated - that should we be able to

15     satisfy him as to the provenance that we would proceed in the fashion

16     that has become the practice of this case from the outset, that is, that

17     the document would then be admitted in -- as -- because it -- the

18     authenticity was no longer at issue and it was what it purported to be.

19             So that's the basis for the information that Ms. Edgerton

20     provided today.  It is not a -- it's not a case of a -- one of the

21     attorneys testifying in lieu of a witness; it is pursuant to a practice

22     that has been well established in the course of this case and that was

23     confirmed last night during our discussions.

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  So the provenance is not an issue?

25             MR. TIEGER:  I -- it should not -- it certainly should not be.

Page 30863

 1     We confirmed that.  Those representations in the past have been

 2     sufficient.  Mr. Robinson is certainly welcome to talk to our

 3     investigator.  I don't think he doubts it and I don't think it is an

 4     issue.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tieger.  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, may I caution about a

 8     certain matter before you rule?  "Sniper position" is the caption and

 9     there is no foundation for that.  The witness did not confirm this.  This

10     was not put to him and the zoom makes it possible to manipulate these

11     photographs easily.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow the "sniper position"?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The caption, the caption.  It

14     hasn't been interpreted.  The caption if you look at this photograph is

15     "sniper position."  On the basis of what may this be the caption?  It is

16     the description.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Caption or title is not a part of evidence at all.

18     Given the circumstances, in particular that the provenance of the photo

19     is not at issue, the Chamber will receive it.

20             Shall we give the number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24121 receives number P6021,

22     Your Honours.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  And if we could just have finally a

24     look at two more photographs in succession, 65 ter number 24135 being the

25     first and 24134 being the second.

Page 30864

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have a problem with the e-court?

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Now, this photo, Mr. Maletic, is from -- was taken from the 15th

 4     floor of Lenjinova Bolnica [phoen] in Grbavica.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go to the next photograph, please,

 6     24134.

 7        Q.   And then I'll have a question for you.  And this photo,

 8     65 ter 24134, is a view from the same location at a magnification of 200.

 9     In both those photos do you see areas behind the confrontation line as

10     you knew it to be at that time -- as you knew it to be during the

11     conflict?

12        A.   And what is the question, sorry?

13        Q.   Do both these photos depict areas in the enemy territory, in your

14     enemy territory, behind the confrontation line?

15        A.   I cannot assess that from here.  You said that it was seriously

16     magnified.  I have to point out that I said in paragraph 25 that civilian

17     zones could be targeted, and as far as I know that did not happen.  So as

18     I said, from some positions civilian zones could be targeted but it did

19     not happen.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we go back, please, to 65 ter number 24135.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Maletic, you said yesterday that you grew up in Sarajevo

22     and you knew these areas.  Do you see here locations behind the enemy's

23     front line?

24        A.   I see those locations here but they're awfully magnified here so

25     I cannot assess where this is viewed from.

Page 30865

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, these would be the last two

 2     photographs I'd like to have tendered, please.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we'll stick with our

 4     objection, but I just want to - so that we're all on the same page

 5     here - understand that these photographs can be admitted to understand

 6     the witness's testimony.  But as to the representation as to where

 7     they're taken from, you don't have any evidence of that and so I take it

 8     that that will not be part of the evidence in the case in light if the

 9     Prosecution wants to prove where they're taken from, they would call a

10     witness or seek permission to call a witness for that.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think the Chamber is of the view Mr. Robinson's

13     comment is fair enough and in light of the development the Chamber also

14     will reconsider yesterday's decision not to admit 65 ter 23643 and we'll

15     admit the three photos all together.

16             Shall we give the numbers.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Photo 24135 receives number P6022.  24134

18     receives number P6023, and 2463 -- 2463 -- 643 [sic] receives number

19     P6024, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Maletic, you also said in your statement that your

23     Supreme Command regularly informed you of actions that were prohibited

24     because they were contrary to the rules of war, and I wonder did they

25     warn you against the use of prisoners for forced labour in dangerous

Page 30866

 1     conditions?

 2        A.   Well, I was aware of some of these things, but I'm not aware of

 3     all the details.  We used prisoners at certain moments, like in workshops

 4     and things like that.  I cannot recall exactly.

 5        Q.   Let's have a look, please, at P5987.  It's a document dated 21

 6     May 1993 that you drafted to the command of the 2nd Battalion, reporting

 7     on the escape of Muslim prisoners who had been taken from Kula to do

 8     labour on the front line.  Do you see the document on the page in front

 9     of you or on the screen in front of you, rather?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, this document says that the prisoners were working under the

12     guard of Zeljko Mitrovic, who you agreed yesterday was in charge of the

13     labour squad in the 2nd Battalion.  And when it was found that they

14     escaped, Mitrovic and the two soldiers with him opened fire after the

15     prisoners.  Now, would you agree with me, Mr. Maletic, that this is

16     contrary to the rules of war?

17        A.   Well, you see, there's one thing with regard to this remark.  You

18     see, it says here that this took place during the night because this

19     location is exposed to fire all the time.  So see, we did make an effort

20     to protect these prisoners because it is impossible to carry out this

21     kind of work during the day.  This is a properly drafted note in my

22     opinion.

23        Q.   Would you agree with me that opening fire on prisoners of war is

24     contrary to the rules of war?

25        A.   Well, if they were not running away, fire would not have been

Page 30867

 1     opened; however, they formally fired when time had already gone by.  You

 2     see that in this statement here.  So see, they came to inform that and

 3     then they only fired formally and so on and so forth.

 4        Q.   And I'm not sure that I understand what "formally firing" means,

 5     so let's get back to brass tacks.  Would you agree that opening fire on

 6     prisoners of war is contrary to the rules of war?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  It seems to me that

 8     this question is ambiguous, that the question ought to be whether opening

 9     fire on prisoners who are escaping is contrary to the rules of war.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see much difference.

11             Would you agree that opening fire on prisoners of war is contrary

12     to the rules of war?  That was the question.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Right, but the document indicates that the

14     prisoners were escaping, so that's a totally different situation.  In my

15     opinion, maybe I'm wrong, but opening fire on people who are escaping is

16     permissible even in the civilian context.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

18             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   That's fine.  We can move on actually.  But still on the same

21     theme, did your Supreme Command, when they told you about actions that

22     were prohibited because they were contrary to the rules of war, warn you

23     about forced expulsions?

24        A.   Natural expulsions?  Forced expulsions of the population?  What

25     was that?  I didn't quite understand.

Page 30868

 1        Q.   When your Supreme Command told you about actions that were

 2     prohibited because they were contrary to the rules of war, did they tell

 3     you that forced expulsions were prohibited?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, what do you mean by "Supreme Command"?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  I was taking the wording of -- from the witness's

 6     statement, Your Honours, and I'll just give you the paragraph citation in

 7     one moment, if I may.

 8             Your indulgence for a moment because there's a couple of copies I

 9     have of the witness's statement and I'll have to find it.

10             I misspoke, Your Honours, and I find the words of the witness at

11     paragraph 18 and the witness actually said "our superior command

12     regularly informed us."  So my apologies.  Indeed, I did misspeak.

13        Q.   To go back to the question, Mr. Witness, did your superior

14     command tell you that forced expulsions were prohibited?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can we have a look, please, at P1266.  It's a document dated

17     30 September 1992 which should be available in your language.  Thank you.

18     A document dated 30 September 1992 on -- which on B/C/S page 2, the ninth

19     line down, reports on the expulsion of 30 Muslim -- pardon me, 300 Muslim

20     civilians from Grbavica on that day.  So despite being warned that forced

21     expulsions were prohibited, Mr. Maletic, in fact, expulsions did take

22     place; correct?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Are you disputing, Mr. Maletic, the accuracy of this report?

25        A.   One cannot see from here that they were expelled.

Page 30869

 1        Q.   The document specifically states, Mr. Maletic, that the writer

 2     was able to confirm that approximately 300 Muslims, Muslim civilians,

 3     have been expelled by the Serbs during the day from the area of Grbavica,

 4     150 of them gathered at the Bristol Hotel, and the remaining at Bosnian

 5     Assembly building approximately 1 kilometre east from the hotel.  And is

 6     the fact that they were expelled not obvious from the document on its

 7     face, Mr. Maletic?

 8        A.   They probably wished to move to the other side of their own

 9     accord.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can the witness be read

11     about the fact that this was found out from the Bosnian liaison officer

12     who was the source of this information?

13             JUDGE KWON:  I haven't read this document.  Does it appear on

14     this text, Ms. Edgerton?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  The sentence reads - and I'm happy to repeat it --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  "Through the Bosnian liaison officer the writer

18     was able to confirm that approximately 300 Muslim civilians have been

19     expelled by the Serbs during the day from the area of Grbavica, 150 of

20     them gathered at the Bristol Hotel, and the remaining at the Assembly

21     building of Bosnia and Herzegovina located at approximately 1 kilometre

22     east from the hotel."

23             May I move on, please?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 30870

 1        Q.   Now, you just said, Mr. Maletic, that they may have wished to

 2     move from Grbavica of their own accord, and on that note perhaps we could

 3     look at some of the conditions of life inside Grbavica.  I'd like us to

 4     go to P1474, and that's the notebook of Dr. -- pardon me, of

 5     General Ratko Mladic in which on 25 March 1993 -- pardon me - he had a

 6     meeting with Prime Minister Radomir Lukic which referred to, among other

 7     things, the situation in Grbavica.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go to pages 157 of the English

 9     transcript and page 159 of the B/C/S original.

10        Q.   On the English page they -- we see where the citation begins.

11     And if we could in both versions go over to the next page.  There

12     General Mladic notes:

13             "Some soldiers rape even Serbian women (in Grbavica).  (Lukic)

14     himself took someone who had done this out of Sarajevo (he wouldn't say

15     his name)."

16             Does that reflect the conditions of life inside VRS-held

17     Grbavica, Mr. Maletic?

18        A.   Yes, this relates to Grbavica, but I don't see what the point

19     was.  This was within the remit of the civilian police; however, what was

20     really happening I don't know.

21        Q.   Well, when your superior command told you about certain things

22     that were prohibited, did they tell you that sexual violence was

23     prohibited?

24        A.   Yes, none of my soldiers was involved in any of such activities;

25     therefore, I have no knowledge about it.

Page 30871

 1        Q.   But nevertheless, despite the warning General Mladic appears to

 2     have been informed that it was still going on.

 3        A.   And what is the question?

 4        Q.   Despite the warning, it was still going on, don't you agree?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   So is it your assertion that General Mladic is ill-informed?

 7        A.   I can only speak about my part of the territory, i.e., the part

 8     of Grbavica that was under my control.  There were other battalions in

 9     the area, for example, an armoured battalion, and so on and so forth.

10     Therefore, I couldn't know everything that was happening among the

11     soldiers.  But as far as I know, there were no rapes, not only of Serbian

12     women mentioned here specifically, but of any women at all -- or at least

13     I know nothing about it.

14        Q.   And you were the assistant commander for security and

15     intelligence for your battalion?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   But you received no information to that effect?  You knew nothing

18     about these allegations that even Serbian women were being raped in

19     Grbavica?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when you were advised by your superior command

22     about actions that were -- should be prohibited, did they tell you that

23     looting was prohibited?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   But yet looting and crime in Grbavica, it seems, were rampant,

Page 30872

 1     Mr. Maletic.  Isn't that the case?

 2        A.   Do you consider a crime if a Serb left Sarajevo, found shelter in

 3     a flat or brought his own furniture to an empty flat, do you consider

 4     that to be a war crime?

 5        Q.   Let's have a look at P1482, which is another copy of

 6     General Mladic's notebook.  E-court page 79 in English and page 77 in

 7     B/C/S.  And it refers to a Supreme Command session of 21 January 1993.

 8     And there the defence minister at the time, General Kovacevic, noted the

 9     looting and crime in Grbavica and he said of General Dragomir Milosevic:

10             "He did not cope well" -- oh, I'm sorry, I should wait -- thank

11     you.

12             He said of General Dragomir Milosevic:

13             "He did not cope well at Grbavica because he did not prevent the

14     looting and crime."

15             Does this not reflect, Mr. Maletic, that looting and crime was

16     taking place in Grbavica but it was not being prevented by the military

17     command?

18        A.   Look, the depth of the Grbavica territory was covered by the

19     civilian police, that is to say the civilian police was in charge of what

20     was happening inside the territory.

21        Q.   You've actually not answered my question.  Mr. Maletic, my

22     question was:  Does this notation in General Mladic's diary not reflect

23     that looting and crime was taking place in Grbavica but it was not being

24     prevented by the military command?

25        A.   As far as military is concerned, looting was prohibited and I

Page 30873

 1     told you what was going on with the soldiers who occupied flats and so on

 2     and so forth.  As for the looting, we were deployed along the front line

 3     so we did not know what was going on.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  And if I may, Your Honours, I have two areas that

 6     I hope will be rather brief before I conclude.

 7        Q.   Mr. Maletic, now to go just back briefly to your evidence about

 8     snipers in the battalion command, you said - although you were assistant

 9     commander for security and intelligence - that you didn't know about the

10     type of assignments and the manner in which they were executed in the

11     case of these snipers.  Now, Mr. Maletic, this Chamber has heard evidence

12     that UNPROFOR knew with specialised troops in reconnaissance and

13     surveillance capabilities about the potential sniper positions, they'd

14     photographed them, they'd drawn out all the potential areas, and the

15     reference to that is General Fraser's evidence at transcript pages 8016

16     to 8017.  They were -- they've also heard that UNPROFOR was very familiar

17     with the sniper positions, all for the purpose of having shooters reply

18     to these snipers to protect the civilian.  And they've also heard at

19     transcript page 13197 that civilian residents of Grbavica knew not only

20     about the snipers, they knew their names, who they were, and where they

21     operated.

22             So, Mr. Maletic, yesterday you gave evidence that even though you

23     attended briefing meetings at battalion command, both as a company

24     commander and as assistant commander of security and intelligence, and

25     you conceded at page 80 of yesterday's transcript that you received

Page 30874

 1     general information about the security situation, I wonder how you can

 2     maintain that the civilians in Grbavica and UNPROFOR were actually better

 3     informed than you about the names of the snipers in the 2nd Battalion?

 4        A.   I said that I did not remember their names and I can only repeat

 5     that today.

 6        Q.   Now, in your statement you also said that you personally saw

 7     freedom of movement as something very positive.  I'd like us to have a

 8     look at another document you wrote, 65 ter number 24156, please.  And

 9     it's dated 16 May 1993.  And I'll just wait until it appears on the

10     screen.  To all units of the 2nd Battalion, telling them to fully control

11     and identify persons in their areas of responsibilities and find out

12     their reasons to be there and saying that in case they do not possess

13     approval or a justified reason for that, it's necessary to arrest them

14     immediately and bring them to the battalion command.  And if they try to

15     escape, they should be stopped; and if that's not possible, they should

16     be killed.

17             Now, paragraph -- if we could scroll down in English, please.

18     Paragraph 2 of this document and over onto the next page in English,

19     please.  Thank you.  Paragraph 2 of this document indicates that you've

20     received information from the Croatian Roman Catholic Church that -- or

21     information that the Croatian Roman Catholic Church has engaged some

22     foreign journalists to provide them with TV and photo material on

23     destroyed religious buildings in the area under Muslim control and in the

24     areas of Republika Srpska, and you write that:

25             "In order to prevent such activities, it's necessary to prevent

Page 30875

 1     the entrance of foreign journalists to your areas of responsibility,

 2     unless they have been previously announced and escorted by the authorised

 3     commander from the battalion command."

 4             And you also say if these persons are found in your area without

 5     an authorisation, their documents and equipment should be confiscated and

 6     the battalion command should be contacted for further instruction.  So my

 7     question to you is:  Does this document reflect personal support on your

 8     part for freedom of movement?

 9        A.   As far as this document is concerned, it is possible to allow

10     this during the war, since there was --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down and speak

12     more intelligibly.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters were not able to hear you because

14     you spoke a bit too fast.  Could you repeat your answer slowly.  Thank

15     you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If such cases did happen, it is

17     possible that this is permissible in war.  Since there was no possibility

18     for escape, there were no executions consequently.  Therefore, this

19     allegation is groundless.  Since this condition was not fulfilled, this

20     kind of caution is justifiable during the war, and I am talking about the

21     front line, the forward line.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Could this be marked as a Prosecution exhibit,

23     please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

Page 30876

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24156 receives number P6025,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I did note that your time was up a while ago, but I

 5     take it you will be concluding very soon?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  I think I could -- I think the remaining

 7     examination would take - depending on the witness's answers of

 8     course - ten minutes, if I may, Your Honours.  I'm in Your Honour's

 9     hands.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

13             Let's have -- on the same subject let's have another look at or a

14     look at another document, 65 ter number 24155.

15        Q.   And it's a document you wrote on 6 March 1993, indicating that

16     there were three foreign journalists on RS territory and ordering the

17     4th Company to increase control within their area of responsibility and

18     if they find these journalists to deprive them of freedom of movement and

19     bring them to the battalion command regardless of possible documents that

20     give them permission to work on RS territory.  Now, does this document

21     support or reflect your personal support for freedom of movement, as you

22     indicated in your statement?

23        A.   No.  This refers only to individuals.

24        Q.   So even though, Mr. Maletic, you indicated personal support for

25     freedom of movement, is your evidence now that that personal support did

Page 30877

 1     not apply to individuals, civilians, as is the case in this document?

 2        A.   You can see exactly that it says here those who displayed open

 3     hatred towards the Serbs and intolerance by means of writing reports,

 4     reporting, and thereby caused unimaginable damage to the Serbian people

 5     on the international scene.  This is what refers to such people.

 6        Q.   And it was your determination that these journalists who, in your

 7     view, were intolerant, it was your determination that these journalists

 8     should not have freedom of movement?

 9        A.   Well, I cannot allow the enemy to come to my front line and shoot

10     and photograph my positions.

11        Q.   And, Mr. Maletic, what then makes Tony Ashby, a photographer from

12     Western Australia; Dick Verkijk, a journalist from Holland; and

13     Maxe Tharton, a journalist from Western Australia, the enemy?

14        A.   According to the information that we received from the command,

15     one can see exactly from this document what this is all about.  That

16     means that these journalists are allowed to move around but they are

17     prohibited from coming to the front line in order to prevent them from

18     photographing the positions that could possibly be then shelled the

19     following day.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24155 receives number P6026,

24     Your Honours.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

Page 30878

 1        Q.   Now one last question.  You talked in your statement about

 2     Veselin Vlahovic and Zoran Vitkovic in the area of Grbavica and you said

 3     you were not aware of the entire spectrum of problems these paramilitary

 4     units were causing.  But, Mr. Maletic, Colonel Osmic, as he was at the

 5     time, advised General Mladic on 16 June 1992 - and the reference is

 6     P1478, pages 172, 173, in English; and 170, 171 in

 7     B/C/S - Colonel Milosevic told General Mladic Zoran Vitkovic is the chief

 8     of those who steal.

 9             And that's the same Zoran Vitkovic that you referred to in your

10     statement, isn't it, Mr. Maletic?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I spoke about Zoran Vitkovic and I said that since at

12     the time I was a soldier I only know - and I included that in my

13     statement - that there was a group under the command of Zoran Vitkovic

14     and they were headquartered in the building --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the name of the

16     building.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They used to go to certain sections

18     of the front line where the Serbian fighters needed assistance because

19     they were under enemy attack.  During one such attack by the Muslim

20     forces, Zoran Vitkovic got killed --

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   Mr. Maletic, Mr. Maletic, you answered my question with the first

23     two words in your sentence which is "yes.  Yes."  So I'd like to move on.

24     Now, this Chamber has also heard evidence from Mr. Ratomir Neskovic who

25     was formerly president of the Crisis Staff for Novo Sarajevo about the

Page 30879

 1     other man you referred to, Veselin Vlahovic, Batko, in other words, and

 2     at T 14315 to 14316 Dr. Karadzic referred Mr. Neskovic to his previous

 3     testimony in the Krajisnik case about Batkovic, and Mr. Neskovic said --

 4     and here's what was spoken about in the Krajisnik case.  Mr. Neskovic in

 5     that case said -- was asked:

 6             "Was it understood that the primary targets of his attacks were

 7     Muslims and Croats?"

 8             And his answer was:

 9             "To some extent, yes, but the main targets of his attacks always

10     had to do with money and looting and then of course especially Muslims

11     and Croats, mostly Muslims."

12             So, Mr. Maletic, president of the Crisis Staff for Novo Sarajevo

13     knew about the spectrum of crimes that Batko was involved in.

14     Colonel Milosevic and General Mladic also knew.  So how can you, a man

15     who grew up in Sarajevo, a company commander on the front line in

16     Sarajevo, assistant commander for intelligence and security for your

17     battalion, claim - whose job it was to collect information - how can you

18     claim that you didn't know of the spectrum of crimes that these

19     individuals committed?

20        A.   That man disappeared from the area before I joined the command as

21     company commander and assistant commander for intelligence and security.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Nothing further, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Karadzic.

Page 30880

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

 2     Your Excellencies.  Good morning to everyone.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Maletic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have P998 in

 7     e-court.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   While we are waiting for the document, in paragraph 18 of your

10     statement you said that the superior commands advised you of any

11     prohibition to take action, and Ms. Edgerton asked you something about

12     that.  I would like you to have a look at the document.  I would like to

13     see the last page of the document if possible.  In the English the

14     penultimate page, please.

15             Can you see who this was sent to and did your unit also receive

16     these instructions for further action?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'll read out the last sentence of paragraph 6.

19             "It is most stringently forbidden to mistreat civilian unarmed

20     population and treat the prisoners in keeping with the Geneva

21     Conventions."

22             Did you receive this?  Is this what you had in mind?  And did you

23     abide by these instructions?

24        A.   We received these instructions and we abided by them.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 30881

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we go back to P6025 again.

 2     P6025.  It was admitted just earlier today.  I wanted to focus on

 3     paragraph 1 which esteemed Madam Edgerton failed to read.  Could you

 4     please read it out aloud.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "We received information from

 6     several sources that groups of American special forces (members of the

 7     so-called 'Green Berets,' target scouts - road scouts) have already been

 8     inserted into the territory of the former BiH.  In the event of foreign

 9     military intervention, they are supposed to execute tasks such as guiding

10     the air force, securing airborne landing areas, collecting data on

11     strength of Serbian units, identifying and selecting the targets for

12     air-strikes, and other special assignments."

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Who was the prohibition referred to in paragraph 1

15     supposed to be referring to -- sorry, item 4 -- no, sorry.  Actually, the

16     last paragraph of paragraph 1, "with the aim of discovering," et cetera.

17     Who did this refer to?

18        A.   The American special forces, and that is why I issued this order,

19     or rather, piece of information.

20        Q.   So members of the aforementioned groups?

21        A.   Yes.  It says groups of American special forces that have been

22     inserted.

23        Q.   Can you read this aloud, "in case there is no ..." et cetera.

24        A.   I can't find that.

25        Q.   The last paragraph of item 1.

Page 30882

 1        A.   "With the aim of detecting ..."

 2        Q.   Yes, the sentence after that.

 3        A.   Now it's gone.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please wait for page 2

 5     because the interpreters cannot see that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7             Could you read slowly again.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the English translation be placed on the

 9     screen.  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]

11             "Unless there are solid grounds and justification, arrest

12     immediately and bring to battalion command.  If they try to flee, prevent

13     them from doing so.  If that is impossible, liquidate them."

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you.  How would you or how did you treat the Serbs who

16     moved about the lines unauthorised?  Did you apply measures against them

17     as well?

18        A.   Of course.  No unauthorised access was allowed to the front line.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 3 of item 3.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we have that on the screen, please,

21     interpreter's note.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.    "If such persons are encountered in the combat area ...,"

24     et cetera.

25             What is the key point here?  What dictates your treatment of such

Page 30883

 1     people?  In other words, what was happening with those who were

 2     authorised access?

 3        A.   If they had authorised access, they could continue filming and go

 4     about their journalistic tasks.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked about this alleged expulsion.  While

 6     you were there, were there exchanges taking place organised by

 7     commissions in keeping with certain lists; and if so, where, at what

 8     bridges did such occurrences take place?

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Before the witness answers, that's -- perhaps we

10     could ask Dr. Karadzic to rephrase because that's a very leading question

11     or perhaps it's been so leading that maybe there's no point in him

12     rephrasing any longer.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.  It is the

15     habit I have since the Prosecution case.  It seems to be difficult to be

16     rid of it.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Maletic, what was happening with the people who wanted to

19     cross from one side to the other?  How was that regulated?

20        A.   I have mentioned here that for a while the blue routes were open

21     and they were free to cross the bridges both ways.

22        Q.   Could anyone go as they pleased or was it regulated?

23        A.   With the prior agreement of the warring parties and provided

24     there was a truce, a cease-fire.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now have P6019.

Page 30884

 1             Could you tell us, what is the green building across the street,

 2     if you recognise it?

 3        A.   Perhaps it's the building next to the machine engineering school.

 4        Q.   It was stated that this picture was taken from the 6th floor or

 5     the roof of the Lenjinova Street building.  Did you have sniper positions

 6     on the 6th -- sorry, the 13th floor of that building in Lenjinova Street

 7     or perhaps on the roof?

 8        A.   That was the front line and the fighters were dug in at the foot

 9     of the buildings.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 6020 next.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   As for the previous question, can you say yes or no?  Did you

14     have sniper positions at that height?

15        A.   I did not have sharpshooters in my unit.  As for this photograph,

16     this picture was taken after the war, that's what we were told, so this

17     is not accurate.  Perhaps there was a tree here.  Another thing, it is

18     incomprehensible that traffic was allowed on the Muslim side when they

19     initiated combat, thus exposing vehicles and civilians to danger.  There

20     was a real danger of being hit by stray bullets.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Maletic, what did you mean by

22     saying that you "did not have sharpshooters in my unit"?  Did you mean

23     that there was no sniper in that position or you didn't have snipers at

24     all in your unit?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please receive

Page 30885

 1     the following interpretation:  Sharpshooters or snipers -- could the

 2     witness receive accurate interpretation in the Serbian language.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So could you clarify what you meant by saying:  "I

 4     did not have sharpshooters in my unit"?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said "snajperisti" and

 6     it was interpreted as "sharpshooter."

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Sharpshooter and sniper

 8     are interchangeable terms.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You are not giving evidence, Mr. Karadzic.  I was

10     asking Mr. Maletic.

11             Did you understand my question?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  While I commanded the company

13     in 1992 or part of that year, in our company we did not have sniper

14     shooters.  Our defence line was at the foot of the buildings.  We had

15     semi-automatic and automatic rifles, machine-guns, et cetera.

16             JUDGE KWON:  What is the date of the document of the list of

17     names we saw yesterday, Ms. Edgerton?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  The list is undated, Your Honours.  It includes

19     the name of one Aco Petrovic who the witness said replaced the previous

20     battalion commander at a particular date which I can find momentarily.

21     So it's safe to assume that the list does not date from 1992.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 30886

 1        Q.   With all due respect for the interpreters, I wanted to ask you

 2     this:  Is "strelac" and "snajperisti" the same thing?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In the Serbian, there is a

 4     difference.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I'm asking you, Mr. Maletic.  "Sharpshooter was being interpreted

 7     to you as "strelac."  Are there words as "strelac" and "snajperisti" in

 8     military parlance?  Is there a difference?

 9        A.   "Snajperisti" is a sniper shooter.  Perhaps the other term

10     applied to a soldier with an automatic rifle.  That's what we call

11     "strelac."

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 6022.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Did you have positions at or on the 15th floor of

16     Lenjinova Street or on the roof?  Did you have positions there?

17        A.   Our positions were at the foot of the buildings there and we had

18     fortified dug-outs and bunkers.

19        Q.   A hypothetical question, if I may, as a soldier could you tell us

20     what would be the trajectory of a projectile which went through a tram, a

21     streetcar, what would the trajectory look like?  Where would be the exit

22     and the entry point?

23        A.   What it would look like --

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 30887

 1             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Before the witness answers, I would submit that

 3     doesn't arise from the cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You showed this picture and he's putting his

 5     question based upon this picture.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  I understand Your Honour's ruling then.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   If one were to shoot from this height, from the 15th floor or the

11     roof of the high-rise on the tram tracks, what would be the height of the

12     entry and exit hole?  Would there be a difference?

13        A.   There would be a drastic difference.  The entry point would go

14     perhaps through the roof or the top of the tram and the lower part would

15     go further below.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 2126 and I would

17     kindly ask the usher to hand the pen to the witness.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Maletic, can you identify this?  Where was this photograph

20     taken from, from which position?

21        A.   I cannot find my way.

22        Q.   Do you see Metaljka over there in the background?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Can you mark the faculty of philosophy and the museum?

25        A.   The national museum, Zemaljski Muse?

Page 30888

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   How shall I mark it?  Should I put a circle there?

 3        Q.   Could you put number 1 by the museum.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And the building and the yard, does that also belong to the

 6     museum?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please mark the faculty of philosophy.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, please, do you see the river-bed, on that side,

11     the Serb side, can you mark your positions?  Can you mark your positions

12     by drawing a red line.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any positions on the buildings up there?

15     For example, on the 7th floor of Metaljka, did you have a position there?

16        A.   No, no, no.  These ones mentioned at Metaljka 1 and 2, we used

17     them only at night because we could not approach them during the day.  So

18     we used them mostly at night.  All the positions were at lower levels of

19     the buildings.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us this, these positions at lower levels --

21     actually, where were their positions?  Can you use the green marker or

22     some other colour to mark their positions facing you?  Well, the green

23     one wouldn't be readily visible.  Take any colour, blue will do.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Were they just by the river or a bit further off?

Page 30889

 1        A.   Well, they were in these buildings at lower levels and in certain

 2     areas we saw that they were right by the river underneath that concrete

 3     there.  So it's at lower levels by the buildings, if you will.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Was there anything on these buildings, the museum,

 5     was there anything there by way of military installations?  Were they

 6     used?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So your positions were dug in and could you see

 9     beyond their lines?  Could you have a clear line of sight?  You refer to

10     this in your statement.  Is that what you meant when you said that from

11     your positions you could not see them?

12        A.   That is what I tried to say, that you could not see the depth of

13     the territory from there.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that opposite the faculty there is S, or

15     rather, this is a line where the tram moves onto the other side of the

16     street.  So you can only see the beginning --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you're leading in a --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you know of some curve where the tram had to slow down?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did your soldiers await an opportunity there to fire at the tram?

23        A.   No.  That was always prohibited, to fire at civilians in civilian

24     targets.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether you see that red building in

Page 30890

 1     the background, can you indicate who kept what under their control behind

 2     Metaljka and can you draw that for us?

 3        A.   That was not the line of my battalion.  I just know that in this

 4     red building -- well, it was partly Serb positions and partly Muslim

 5     positions in that red building.  This was not the area of responsibility

 6     of my battalion so I just heard about that.

 7        Q.   Would you put a circle around that building that had been divided

 8     between the two armies?

 9        A.   I do apologise, but I think it is this building.

10        Q.   Thank you.  By the trenches -- actually, could you put number 4

11     by this building and could you mark the trenches by 3.

12        A.   3?  Our trenches, right?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   You can also place number 4 by this red building.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber needs to rise at 10.30

17     sharp, so if you need more time we'll break now.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no, Excellencies.  I could

19     finish now but I would like to ask Mr. Maletic to place a date here and

20     to initial this photograph and could it please be admitted, too.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be next Defence exhibit.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be document number D2525, Your Honours.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  And, Your Honours, would it be wise to have the

24     clean underlying photograph also admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any problem.  That will be

Page 30891

 1     Exhibit D2526.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Just an observation, Dr. Karadzic, if you ask

 3     someone if they agree with some proposition which you then make, that is

 4     always a leading question, and that's what you tend to do.  It's

 5     something you drum into law students not to do.  You'll find if you

 6     preface your questions with:  What, when, who, or where, well that

 7     doesn't always exclude a leading question; it helps to do so.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  You

 9     are right.  I'm aware of this habit of mine, if you will.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Are you done with your re-examination?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Well, thank you, Mr. Maletic, that concludes your

13     evidence.  Please have a safe journey back home.

14             We'll rise all together and resume at 11.00.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will give its oral rulings on three

19     matters.  First the Chamber will issue an oral ruling on the accused's

20     motion to vary list of witnesses filed confidentially -- I'm sorry, filed

21     publicly with confidential annexes on the 22nd of November, 2012.  In the

22     motion the accused requests that the Chamber allow him to vary his list

23     of witnesses pursuant to Rule 73 ter (D) by adding one witness.  The

24     accused further notifies the Chamber that he does not intend to call an

25     additional batch of 26 witnesses who previously appeared on his witness

Page 30892

 1     list.  Moreover, the accused informs the Chamber that the witness he

 2     seeks to add benefits from Rule 70 conditions from a previous case and

 3     thus he attaches the factual basis for his request as well as the

 4     witness's proposed statement as confidential annexes A and B to the

 5     motion.

 6             On the 23rd of November, 2012, the Prosecution filed its

 7     response, stating that it does not oppose the accused's motion.

 8             Having reviewed the information in annex A to the motion and the

 9     proposed statement in annex B for the witness the accused wishes to add

10     to his witness list, and considering that the Prosecution does not oppose

11     this addition, the Chamber finds that there is good cause to allow the

12     accused to add this witness to his list and grants the accused's motion

13     in this respect.  With regard to the Rule 70 conditions in place for this

14     witness from a prior case, the Chamber reminds the accused that it is his

15     obligation to make the appropriate Rule 70 application to the Chamber for

16     witnesses he wishes to call.  The Chamber further notes that there is no

17     such a thing as an "existing Rule 70 protective measures" that continues

18     from case to case and that the Chamber must decide these issues anew in

19     each case.  Accordingly, the Chamber instructs the accused to file a

20     Rule 70 application for this witness, attaching all relevant

21     correspondence with the state requesting the Rule 70 conditions well in

22     advance of the witness's scheduled testimony.

23             Accordingly, the Chamber grants the motion and allows the accused

24     to add the witness named in confidential annex A to the motion to his

25     65 ter list.

Page 30893

 1             The Chamber will now issue its ruling on the Prosecution's

 2     request, made orally on the 28th of November 2012, that the accused be

 3     ordered to provide the Prosecution with outstanding witness statements

 4     for all the witnesses he intends to call during his defence case.  In

 5     terms of dead-line, the Prosecution requests that the accused be ordered

 6     to disclose these statements by the end of December insofar as witnesses

 7     related to the municipalities and hostages components of the case are

 8     concerned and by the end of January in relation to Srebrenica witnesses.

 9             In support, the Prosecution argues that the accused has failed to

10     comply with Rule 65 ter (G) of the Tribunal's Rules in that his list of

11     witnesses does not contain adequate factual summaries of the witnesses'

12     evidence.  Since the Prosecution has also not been provided with witness

13     statements for many of the witnesses, it is unable to undertake

14     investigations relating to those witnesses or identify the extent to

15     which they contradict each other.

16             The Prosecution also submits that, as instructed by the Chamber

17     during the pre-Defence conference, it tried to find a solution with the

18     Defence without the Chamber's involvement.  However, it was advised by

19     the Defence team that further information on the witnesses' evidence

20     would not be forthcoming due to the Defence's lack of time and resources.

21     In that respect, the Prosecution notes that the accused has been warned

22     by the Chamber that his witness list is excessive and includes a large

23     number of witnesses who are to provide irrelevant, marginal, or

24     manifestly repetitive information, which in turn contributes to the time

25     and resource obstacles faced by the Defence.

Page 30894

 1             The Prosecution finally explains that in asking for witness

 2     statements rather than adequate Rule 65 ter factual summaries, it is

 3     trying to alleviate the Defence's workload as the summaries can only be

 4     provided after the statements have been drawn up.

 5             In response, the accused submits that he opposes the request as

 6     it is impossible for the Defence to meet the dead-lines requested without

 7     more time and resources.  The accused's legal advisor, Mr. Robinson, adds

 8     that the Defence team has done everything possible to provide as much

 9     information as possible to the Prosecution concerning Defence witnesses,

10     which included disclosing some 160 witness statements so far.  He

11     reiterates, however, that the Defence does not have the resources to take

12     all the statements by December and January.  As for providing more

13     detailed summaries of the evidence, Mr. Robinson submits that this would

14     amount to speculation since the Defence does not have more information in

15     relation to witnesses who have not yet been interviewed.  Accordingly,

16     Mr. Robinson concludes that it would be best for the Prosecution and the

17     Defence to continue working together as they have done until now.  In

18     cases where the Prosecution is disadvantaged by late notice, the Chamber

19     can postpone the testimony of affected witnesses.

20             The Chamber has reviewed the Rule 65 ter summaries provided by

21     the accused and agrees with the Prosecution that a significant number of

22     those summaries do not provide adequate notice regarding the witnesses'

23     evidence.  For example, for many of the witnesses, the summaries are

24     general in nature and provide very little information other than the

25     component of the case to which the witness is relevant.  In addition,

Page 30895

 1     many are formulaic with the same summary being provided over and over

 2     again, with very little or no difference between the witnesses.

 3     Furthermore, as recently submitted by Mr. Robinson, the list also does

 4     not include the witnesses whose evidence has been admitted or is sought

 5     for admission pursuant to Rules 92 bis and 92 quater, despite Rule 65 ter

 6     (G) clearly implying that those witnesses should be included too.

 7     Accordingly, the Chamber is of the view that the accused's witness list,

 8     as it stands now, is not in compliance with Rule 65 ter (G).

 9             The Chamber does accept that the accused and his team are working

10     hard to obtain the witness statements of all the witnesses on the

11     accused's revised witnesses list of 11th of September, 2012.  However,

12     the Chamber also notes that that list contains 583 witnesses who are to

13     testify under Rule 92 ter, with the exception of the accused himself, and

14     yet the Defence is in possession of only around 160 witness statements so

15     far.  The implication is, therefore, that around 420 witnesses have not

16     been interviewed by the Defence at this stage.  It is also clear from the

17     submission made before the Chamber that a large number of these witnesses

18     have never been contacted by the Defence and probably do not even know

19     that they are on the accused's witness list.  This is an extremely

20     unsatisfactory state of affairs at this stage of the trial and is not

21     conducive to its efficiency.

22             The Chamber recalls here that it has already warned the accused

23     during the Status Conference of 3rd of September, 2012, that the first

24     version of his witness list which contained 579 witnesses was causing

25     concern as it, among other things, included a large number of witnesses

Page 30896

 1     whose evidence was completely or largely irrelevant to the charges in the

 2     indictment as well as unnecessarily repetitive witnesses.  The Chamber

 3     even provided specific examples of such witnesses and then ordered the

 4     accused to revise the witness list, bearing in mind all those concerns.

 5     When the accused eventually filed a revised witness list on the 11th of

 6     September, 2012, he dropped only ten witnesses and included a number of

 7     character witnesses with the result that the total number of witnesses

 8     currently listed on the 65 ter list is 583.  Since then, several

 9     witnesses have been dropped by the Defence due to their refusal to come

10     and give evidence and the accused has removed an additional 20-odd

11     witnesses as indicated by my earlier oral ruling.

12             The Chamber is in agreement with the Prosecution that the

13     accused's problem with providing adequate factual summaries for his

14     witness list stems from his failure to adequately revise what is a very

15     unrealistic and excessive witness list.  The Chamber is also concerned

16     because it seems that the accused's witness list was compiled without the

17     accused and his Defence team knowing what the listed witnesses will in

18     fact testify about.  This is not only unfair to the Prosecution but also

19     goes against the spirit of the Rules and causes the Chamber to question

20     the accused's ability to adequately represent himself and organise his

21     Defence case properly.  As the accused must be aware, the Chamber has to

22     ensure that this trial is fair both to him and to the Prosecution.  The

23     Chamber is also under the obligation to make sure that the trial is

24     expeditious, which means that the accused cannot be allowed to call an

25     unnecessarily large number of witnesses, especially if their evidence is

Page 30897

 1     also irrelevant or only marginally relevant to the charges against him or

 2     if they are unnecessarily repetitive.

 3             For all those reasons, the Chamber has come to the conclusion

 4     that the Prosecution's request should be granted in part.  The Chamber

 5     therefore orders the accused to provide the Prosecution with adequate

 6     summaries under Rule 65 ter of the evidence of all the witnesses he

 7     intends to call.  He shall do so by the end of January 2013 in relation

 8     to the witnesses dealing with the municipalities and hostages components

 9     of the case, and by the end of February 2013 in relation to the

10     Srebrenica component of the case.  Given the Chamber's guide-lines on the

11     conduct of this trial of 8th of October, 2009, it shall not order the

12     accused to provide witness statements to the Prosecution by those dates,

13     but rather leaves that option open to the parties to agree on should it

14     be more practicable.

15             While the accused and Mr. Robinson have submitted that the

16     provision of the summaries by the dead-lines sought by the Prosecution

17     will be an impossible task, the Chamber recalls its position that the

18     accused's witness list, even in its current revised form, is unrealistic

19     and unreasonable for all the reasons outlined during the

20     Status Conference of the 3rd of September.  Accordingly, the Chamber

21     orders the accused to further revise his witness list by Friday, 14th of

22     December, 2012, and, in doing so, to make a serious attempt at including

23     only those witnesses who are to give evidence relevant to the charges in

24     the indictment and who are not unnecessarily repetitive.  Furthermore, in

25     order to comply with Rule 65 ter (G), the accused shall include all

Page 30898

 1     Rule 92 bis and Rule 92 quater witnesses whose evidence was sought for

 2     admission prior to 27th of August, 2012, and the admission of which has

 3     been granted by the Chamber, as well as Krnojelac whose Rule 92 quater

 4     evidence is currently being considered for admission by the Chamber.

 5     Once the list is revised as instructed, the task of providing the

 6     summaries by January and February will be less daunting.

 7             The Chamber finally notes that if, following the filing of the

 8     revised witness list, it is not satisfied that the accused has made a

 9     genuine attempt to focus on relevant witnesses alone, it will consider

10     imposing, pursuant to Rule 73 ter (C), a limit on the number of witnesses

11     he may call.

12             Finally, the Chamber recalls that the accused's motion for

13     clarification of decision on Defence witness interviews, dated 26th of

14     November, 2012, is still pending.  Given that the issues raised therein,

15     and particularly the number of witnesses the Prosecution wishes to

16     interview, are linked to the accused's witness list, the Chamber shall

17     postpone its decision on that motion until the revised witness list is

18     filed by the accused and the Prosecution is able to revise the list of

19     witnesses it wishes to interview.

20             In that respect, the Prosecution shall, by Friday, 21st of

21     December, 2012, inform the Chamber whether the number of witnesses it

22     wishes to interview has changed and, if so, shall notify the accused and

23     the VWS of the new list of those witnesses.  The Chamber shall then

24     proceed to issue its decision on the accused's motion for clarification

25     of decision on Defence witness interviews.

Page 30899

 1             Finally, the Chamber will issue an oral ruling on the

 2     Prosecution's motion to exclude the evidence in part of witness

 3     Milan Pejic filed on 30th of November, 2012, wherein the Prosecution

 4     seeks the partial exclusion of Milan Pejic's evidence on the basis that

 5     some parts are irrelevant to the charges in the indictment and the

 6     accused's responsibility.

 7             The accused filed his response on the 3rd of December, 2012,

 8     opposing the motion and contending that the material is, indeed, relevant

 9     to his case.

10             The Chamber reminds the accused, once again, that it will not

11     admit tu quoque evidence under the guise of relevance to this trial.

12     Accordingly, the Chamber orders that the third subparagraph of paragraph

13     24 should be excluded from the witness's statement as well as paragraph

14     27 and the four documents referred to in the second subparagraph of

15     paragraph 24.  Further, while the Chamber considers that the remainder of

16     the witness's statement is of some relevance to the indictment, it finds

17     paragraph 17 difficult to understand and would benefit from the witness's

18     live explanation on this paragraph.

19             The Chamber therefore grants the motion in part, excludes the

20     third subparagraph of paragraph 24 as well as paragraph 27 and the four

21     documents referred to in the second subparagraph of paragraph 24, and

22     allows the accused to tender the remainder of Milan Pejic's statement

23     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  It further orders that the accused seek further

24     explanation on the evidence in paragraph 17 live from the witness.

25     Finally, the Chamber orders that the Prosecution shall have 30 minutes

Page 30900

 1     for its cross-examination.

 2             Unless there are any other matters, we'll bring in the next

 3     witness.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just for the record, in line 8 on page 7,

 6     65 ter number 24643 should read 23643.  Thank you.

 7             Good morning, sir.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Would you take the solemn declaration, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I read this?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  BLASKO RASEVIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Rasevic.  Please be seated and make

17     yourself comfortable.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

21                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Rasevic.

23        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court

25     1D6800.

Page 30901

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Rasevic, did you give a statement to the Defence team and can

 3     you see it now on the screen before you?

 4        A.   Yes, I did give this statement, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Have you read it and have you signed it?

 6        A.   Yes, I have read and signed it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'm waiting for the interpretation and I would

 8     likewise kindly ask you to do the same.

 9             Does this statement accurately reflect everything that you said?

10        A.   Everything that is contained in my statement is absolutely

11     correct and accurate and I didn't make anything up.

12        Q.   I rather thought whether it was recorded according to your words.

13        A.   Yes, but in two places I noticed a typo in the name.  Let me find

14     it.  Instead of Dragas Bojo it should be Dragas Vojo.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have a hard copy of your statement in front of

16     you?

17        A.   No, I only have it on the screen.  I don't have a hard copy.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, can I please hand

19     the witness his statement in hard copy in the B/C/S?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't say "B/C/S."  I said "in

23     the Serbian."  B/C/S does not exist, but let's move on.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Apart from these typos, the substance is exactly as you said it?

Page 30902

 1        A.   Yes, yes, it is.

 2        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today here in this

 3     courtroom, would your answers basically be the same?

 4        A.   Absolutely the same.  Maybe the sequence of words and sentences

 5     would be slightly different, but basically it would be identical.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please tender this statement

 8     into evidence and an associated document as 92 ter package.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Ms. Iodice?

10             MS. IODICE:  No, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit the statement as well as the document,

12     associated exhibit, i.e., 1D15006 .

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6800 receives number D2527,

14     Your Honours.  And 1D15006 receives number D2528 , Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like now to

18     read the summary of Mr. Blasko Rasevic's statement in English.

19             [In English] Blasko Rasevic lived in Sarajevo.  He was a bus

20     driver at GSP, city public transport, in Sarajevo.

21             At some point in the winter of 1991 and 1992 and from then on,

22     his colleagues and he observed a group of men with automatic rifles and

23     dressed in camouflage uniforms which he had not seen until then.  The

24     uniforms were neither of the police nor of the JNA and they also wore

25     green berets.  These groups were the Green Berets and the

Page 30903

 1     Patriotic League, formed by the leaders of the SDA.  He and his

 2     colleagues on other bus lines were stopped by these groups who then

 3     searched them, the passengers, and the buses.  Bus searches were often

 4     conducted in an arrogant manner, with open hostility towards the Serbs.

 5     It was rumoured and eventually confirmed that the members of these

 6     formations were Muslims from the criminal circles.

 7             In late January or early February 1992, these armed paramilitary

 8     groups started to move freely during the day.  Serbs then in beginning of

 9     March 1992 set up barricade in the area of the city where they had been

10     the majority in order to protect themselves and their families.  At the

11     same time, Muslims erected their barricades in the areas where they have

12     constituted the majority.  The barricades were in place until the 3rd of

13     March, 1992, when the three peoples made a political agreement to form

14     mixed patrols which were operational until April when the Muslims

15     perfidiously killed Serb police officer Pero Petrovic.  Blasko Rasevic

16     states with full responsibility that the Serbs were deceived by the

17     Muslims into accepting these joint patrols and the removal of the

18     original barricades.  The patrols were active, but the armed groups, the

19     Green Berets and the Patriotic League, continued to operate alongside

20     these patrols and exclusively at night.  Therefore, the barricades were

21     removed but armed men remained and exercised control on the quiet.

22             When the Serbs lifted their barricades and took part in the joint

23     patrols, the Muslim forces took the opportunity, with support of the MUP,

24     police, to put under their control parts of the city that had previously

25     been under Serb control, like Pofalici, Buca Potok, Pionirska Dolina, and

Page 30904

 1     others.

 2             On 4 April 1992 he was stopped by members of the Green Berets and

 3     the Patriotic League and searched once again.  That day, fearing for his

 4     life, he decided to no longer go to work until the situation normalised.

 5     That same day, realising that they were in the part of the city where

 6     Muslims were controlling, dominant, he and his family fled to Mrkovici.

 7             In Mrkovici, the police had openly sided with the Muslims and the

 8     JNA had no power whatsoever.  The neighbours assembled in the village

 9     school and decided to self-organise in order to protect themselves.  They

10     formed the two platoons comprised of volunteering civilians and ten

11     reserve policemen from the Mrkovici local commune.  He was in charge of

12     one of those platoons.

13             On 5th of April, 1992, a group of Serbian refugees from the area

14     of Pionirska Dolina and the surrounding villages fled to Mrkovici,

15     seeking refuge.  They managed to provide shelter and food for some of

16     those people and because there were many of them they sent the others

17     towards the Romanija plateau.

18             At dusk, the two platoons set off and took up positions at

19     Velika-Tvrdjava-Spicaste-Stijene elevation.  They held that line

20     successfully until the end of the war.  When the VRS was formed on the

21     12th of May, 1992, his platoon became part of the 2nd Romanija

22     Motorised Brigade.

23             From their positions they could observe the Muslim artillery

24     firing positions in the city, situated in civilian facilities.  His unit

25     was often targeted by mortars mounted on trailers.  Muslim forces

Page 30905

 1     repeatedly launched random artillery attacks on the village, damaging a

 2     large number of family homes and wounding and killing civilians.

 3             Throughout the war his unit only carried out defensive tasks and

 4     never received an order to attack.  Never he nor any other members of his

 5     unit or their subordinated or superior commands intended to cause

 6     civilian casualties or terrorise civilians in the territory under Muslim

 7     control or exert psychological influence on them.  They never received or

 8     issued any verbal or written orders to that effect.  Muslim forces often

 9     violated truce agreements to advance closer to their positions -- to the

10     Serb positions.  They later lied to the media that it was Serb forces

11     that were violating the truce.  They did this constantly prior to a

12     planned attack, falsely briefing the media that Serb forces were

13     attacking them in a particular area.  Blasko Rasevic and his unit used

14     this to their advantage, considering those an indication of when and

15     where the Muslim forces would attack them.

16             50 per cent of the casualties in his unit were inflicted by the

17     Muslim sniper fire.  The opposing unit to his was the

18     105th Mountain Brigade and another Muslim brigade, which he doesn't

19     remember the name.  On June the 8th, 1992, Muslim unit launched a

20     large-scale attack, which they successfully repelled.  The bodies of

21     Muslim soldiers remained on the battle-field and the Blasko Rasevic's

22     unit pulled the dead and buried them and then exchanged them, which

23     shows that -- with the full respect of the international law and also it

24     was -- they had been acting in defence and the other side was attacking

25     them.

Page 30906

 1             On 29th of January, 1993, Muslim forces launched a strong attack

 2     and temporarily took control of Mala Tvrdjava, a small castle.  The next

 3     day his unit made an unprecedented effort and re-established control over

 4     Mala Tvrdjava.  In total they had five casualties and 22 wounded

 5     soldiers.

 6             His unit had a very fair relationship with civilian authorities.

 7     Due to the difficult situation and poverty, his unit organised a soup

 8     kitchen in the village providing meals for the entire local population as

 9     well as that of surrounding villages.

10             Mr. Rasevic's unit never opened fire at civilians in Sedrenik.

11     After the incident that took place in February 1994 in Markale, there was

12     a firm conviction in his unit that the Serb forces had not committed the

13     incident and especially not the forces from Mrkovici because someone

14     would have had to know about it and such information would have certainly

15     leaked in their own unit.

16             [Interpretation] Now, this was the summary.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Rasevic, would you be so kind as to tell us how many times

19     were you attacked and how many times offensives were launched against

20     your positions?

21        A.   In the course of 1992, that occurred very frequently, these

22     attacks.  And in addition to that, on the 8th of June and on the 26th of

23     October there was another offensive in which we lost two or three troops.

24     Then again it happened on the Orthodox Christmas, which is on the 7th of

25     January, 1993.  A sabotage group of theirs numbering a few people - and

Page 30907

 1     we found six of them later in front of Mala Tvrdjava - had come to plant

 2     explosive and blow up the facility, but due to the vigilance of our

 3     combatants they were noticed and they were eliminated.  After that we

 4     handed over their dead bodies.  Similar incidents happened, for example,

 5     on the 30th of June, 1992.  There was a very dangerous attack between

 6     Poljine and Hresa.

 7             So it was happening all the time.  They particularly targeted us

 8     because they thought that it was significant in a way, it was a kind of a

 9     dominant elevation and that it could cut off the Vogosca-Hresa

10     communication line which would then leave all our municipalities, Ilijas,

11     Vogosca, Ilija, Rajlovac, Hadzici, et cetera, in encirclement.  But we

12     fought tooth and nail and we never let them pass.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can we briefly look at P842.  It's a map and could

14     you please indicate on the map this line that would have been severed and

15     in which particular area that was.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the usher please help the

17     witness with the pen.  Can we please enlarge this particular section even

18     more.  We don't need the rest of the map.  Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Rasevic, can you see Stari Grad, Mrkovici, and Grdonj?

21        A.   Just a moment.

22        Q.   Before that would you like to have it enlarged even more?

23        A.   Yes, please.

24        Q.   Even more, please.  Can you see where the 105th Brigade is?

25        A.   Yes, yes, I can see the 105th.

Page 30908

 1        Q.   Can you see the word "Mrkovici"?

 2        A.   Well, not exactly.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have it enlarged yet

 4     again.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

 6             MS. IODICE:  Your Honours, if I may, I just want to note that we

 7     were not notified that this exhibit would be used with this witness.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that's true, Mr. President.  We apologise for

10     that.  This was an idea that Dr. Karadzic had after meeting with the

11     witness, but we should have given notice this morning when we learned of

12     that idea.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you please enlarge it even

15     further.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you see Mrkovici --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait till assisted by our usher.

21             Mr. Karadzic, do you need to zoom in further?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can only suggest to the

23     witness to look one centimetre below the top line and he can find

24     Mrkovici.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found Biosko and Mrkovici should

Page 30909

 1     be to the left, but despite of that I cannot find it.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   To the very top of the map.

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  Vogosca -- oh, yes, this is where Mrkovici is.  I can

 5     clearly see it.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now zoom out and

 7     could the witness also be assisted with the pen.  Well, we can leave it

 8     as this.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you please show where the Serbian territory would be severed.

11     Would you just draw a line with an electronic pen.

12        A.   So that would -- yes.  It would be here and they would attempt to

13     link up.  So in actual fact everything else, if that were to be achieved,

14     would remain in encirclement.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please put the date and your initials

16     somewhere to the bottom.

17        A.   Today's the 4th; is that right?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this tendered

19     into evidence.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  It will receive number D2529, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Another question, Mr. Rasevic.  Did you have occasion to see

25     Muslim civilians near your lines doing something?

Page 30910

 1        A.   Yes, Mr. President, and often too.  Even my fighters from the

 2     lines warned them not to cut grass and gather hay in good visibility.

 3     Otherwise someone might get an idea of opening fire at them or a shell

 4     may drop.  So that was in front of our lines, in front of

 5     Spicaste Stijene and Sedrenik.  That's where they were, the local

 6     Muslims, and we mostly knew them as locals.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In line 10 the witness said that there may be a stray

 8     shell rather than a shell land.

 9             Why did you point out that these were local Muslims?

10        A.   Well, the trenches were 50 metres apart or even only 20 metres in

11     some places.  And they called out to each other across the lines and the

12     local inhabitants would warn our fighters that the next day there would

13     be some other people at their line, because they rotated every one or two

14     days, and that they should beware of the new shift because the new shift

15     would use any careless move to open sniper fire or engage our lines.

16        Q.   Save for the cutting of grass and other farming work, were there

17     any other civilians in front of your lines?  Was anyone cutting wood?

18        A.   Yes.  A part above Sedrenik had a pine wood and people cut down

19     trees, pine trees, for firewood.  No one ever opened fire at those

20     people, at least I don't know of that, as they took away timber.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rasevic.  I have no further questions of you right

22     now.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Rasevic, as you have noted that your evidence in

24     chief in most part was admitted in writing in lieu of your oral

25     testimony.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

Page 30911

 1     Office of the Prosecutor.

 2             Yes, Ms. Iodice.

 3             MS. IODICE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Cross-examination by Ms. Iodice:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rasevic.

 6        A.   Good morning, Madam Prosecutor.

 7        Q.   Mr. Rasevic, in paragraph 20 of your statement you say that the

 8     Mrkovici company was part of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.  Your

 9     brigade commander was Miroslav Krajisnik; right?

10        A.   No, Madam Prosecutor.  Miroslav Krajisnik was the commander of

11     the light Kosevo Brigade.  When the VRS was established, my company

12     became part of the 2nd Motorised Romanija Brigade.

13        Q.   Who was your commander, do you remember?

14        A.   Yes, I do.  The first commander of the 2nd Motorised Romanija

15     Brigade was Lieutenant-Colonel Radislav Krstic.

16        Q.   Were you within the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

17        A.   Yes, later on we certainly were.  But that was after two or three

18     months, I'm not sure.  In any case, then we became part of the

19     1st Romanija Brigade, which was later part of the Sarajevo-Romanija

20     Corps.

21        Q.   And at that point your commander was Vlado Lizdek; right?

22        A.   Before Vlado Lizdek, colonel, the commander of the 1st Romanija

23     Brigade was Colonel Dragomir Milosevic.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25        A.   Thank you.

Page 30912

 1        Q.   Were you a member of the SDS before and during the war?

 2        A.   I was a member of the SDS when it was established in 1990.  I was

 3     a member and - how should I put it? - I had no position in the party.  I

 4     was an ordinary member and I still am -- actually, I'm no longer an

 5     active member but I'm a sympathiser of the SDS.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And as a member and supporter, you were informed of

 7     the party's goals and policies; right?

 8        A.   Well, as much as I could, as little time that I had once the war

 9     broke out because there was no time afterwards, but I wasn't particularly

10     interested in politics.  We were all there, at least the people I

11     associated with.  Everyone was concerned because of the whole situation.

12     Muslims talked about Alija and the Serbs talked about their leadership

13     and apparently they couldn't agree on how to resolve the situation.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And you heard about the six strategic goals of the

15     Serbian people; right?

16        A.   One couldn't really say I understood them at the time.  I wasn't

17     engaged in all that back then.  I'm not certain about that.  I really

18     couldn't tell them what they were.

19        Q.   You didn't hear that one of the goals was the division of

20     Sarajevo?

21        A.   Actually, the Serbian Democratic Party -- or actually, the

22     representatives of Serbs, not only the SDS, at the time proposed a

23     cantonal division in Bosnia and Herzegovina of some sort.  As for the

24     division of Sarajevo, once it had all fallen through and the conflict

25     broke out, that option appeared, to divide Sarajevo.

Page 30913

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And --

 2        A.   You're welcome.

 3        Q.   -- and although you weren't very much interested in politics, you

 4     were elected -- you were appointed as a member of the War Commission for

 5     the Serbian municipality of Sarajevo centre; isn't that right?

 6        A.   I don't recall that.  I never received such document.  It may

 7     well be that someone somewhere put it in writing, but I really don't know

 8     a thing about that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I'll try to refresh your memory.

10             MS. IODICE:  If we can have in e-court 65 ter 24245.

11        Q.   So this is a presidential order dated 21st of July, 1992, and

12     signed by the accused, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  And you were appointed as

13     one of the five members of the War Commission for the Serbian

14     municipality of Sarajevo centre.  Does this refresh your recollection?

15        A.   This doesn't tell me anything.  At this time, I was way too busy

16     with combat operations so that it would apply -- well, I know all these

17     names.  There's no denying that.  But this doesn't tell me anything.

18        Q.   What this document tells you is that the appointment of the

19     members of the War Commission were confirmed and one of the members was

20     Blasko Rasevic under number 4.  You were one of these members, weren't

21     you?

22        A.   I can see it here on this piece of paper.  It is true what I can

23     see, but I'm telling you I have never received it and I have no clue, no

24     idea, really.

25             MS. IODICE:  I would ask this document to be admitted,

Page 30914

 1     Your Honours.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MS. IODICE:  Thank you.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24245 becomes Exhibit P2527 [sic],

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I apologise.  Exhibit P6027,

 9     Your Honours.

10             MS. IODICE:

11        Q.   So moving now to a different topic and I want to discuss your

12     role as Mrkovici Company commander.  In paragraph 29 of your statement

13     you say that you held this position from the 31st of January, 1993, to

14     September 1994?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And your company didn't have two commanders, right?

17        A.   Well, you know, after he was killed -- my commander was

18     Bojo Dragas.  He was killed on the 30th of January, 1993, when we

19     recaptured Mala Tvrdjava.  I was his deputy at the time.  Automatically,

20     I became in charge of the company.  It lasted -- well, I can't remember

21     exactly because I got fed up at some point.  I was replaced by

22     Sasa Maksimovic.  He didn't stay in that position long, only a month or

23     two, and I returned to be the company commander.

24        Q.   And that was Sinisa Maksimovic, not Sasa Maksimovic; right?

25        A.   Correct, you're right.  You're right.

Page 30915

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And that happened -- Mr. Maksimovic came here to

 2     testify and he said that he was the company commander from the 27th of

 3     July, 1994.  So is it correct that you probably left the command at the

 4     end of July 1994 -- rather, in September?

 5        A.   Well, I can't pin-point it, but I believe it was the 4th of

 6     September, 1994, when I left, and he was probably in that position until

 7     the 27th of July.  He was there for only two or three months.  He wasn't

 8     there long.  He was a young guy who had just come out of school.  When

 9     Spicaste Stijene fell on one occasion, he withdrew from the position and

10     I took over the company until early September 1994.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 23 --

12        A.   You're welcome.

13        Q.   -- of your statement, you spoke about being targeted by mortars

14     placed on trailer vehicles and hid them behind buildings, schools,

15     kindergartens, hospitals, and they were firing from these positions.

16             MS. IODICE:  If we could go the English to the next page.

17        Q.   So those mortars that you discussed were hidden within civilian

18     facilities; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And you could not see them since they were hidden; right?

21        A.   As a matter of fact, we saw them when they opened fire at us from

22     those vehicles, from the back of those vehicles.  Immediately after

23     firing they would flee, taking cover.  As for the mortars, in the yard of

24     the Nemanja Vlatkovic school, which was a school for mentally challenged

25     children -- well, by that time they had emptied the school.  Then in the

Page 30916

 1     Kosevo Hospital they opened fire from there daily.  Those working in the

 2     Kosevo Hospital told me later that they came there as well with trucks

 3     where the mortars were.  They would fire and flee.  Kosevo was in open

 4     view.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And you anticipated one of my next questions.  You

 6     said that they would fire and then very quickly move.  So if you wanted

 7     to respond to this fire you had to be very quick, you have to fire

 8     immediately, because otherwise they would move and be somewhere else;

 9     right?

10        A.   Precisely.  In such circumstances when we knew they fired from

11     such positions, we didn't even respond.  We didn't want to open random

12     fire.  As for their positions where they were deployed, we would get in

13     touch with our superior command of what was going on and then they would

14     make decisions as to whether to engage or not.

15        Q.   And engaging after they had moved would have had no effect,

16     right, because by then the mortars would have been gone?

17        A.   I'm telling you, as for the mortars mounted on vehicles, on the

18     chassises of vehicles or trailers, we couldn't engage them because they

19     would fire one or two up to three shells and move away.  There would have

20     been no point and we didn't engage them.  As for those we did, when we

21     found out that they fired from different kind of positions, we did

22     engage.  We used what we had because the biggest piece we had was a

23     Browning and we could only reach them by that.  In that way we would try

24     to make them run.

25        Q.   Didn't your unit also have mortars?

Page 30917

 1        A.   No.  My company had only 60-millimetre mortars, the small ones,

 2     and we had two 84-millimetre pieces later on.  That's all we had.

 3        Q.   And moving on to the next subject, you agree that from your

 4     positions you had a very good view over the city; right?

 5        A.   Right.

 6        Q.   And is it your evidence that SRK never fired from

 7     Spicaste Stijene at all?

 8        A.   To my knowledge, never.  Now, whether it happened when I was

 9     absent - and there isn't much chance of that because I was there non-stop

10     at the lines - in my knowledge they didn't.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Could we have in e-court Exhibit P1619.  This is a

12     report dated 5th of March, 1995.  And if we go to page 3 in English and

13     in B/C/S, we can see under 8(a) (ii) and (iii), we can see that on that

14     day two civilians were wounded from fire coming from Sharpstone,

15     Spicaste Stijene.  So if we now go back to page 1 in English and B/C/S,

16     under number 3(b) we can see that after that incident the EgyBat returned

17     the fire on the Bosnian Serb positions at Sharpstone and received a phone

18     call from Radava Battalion commander stating that -- stating that if "the

19     EgyBat APC in his target practice area ... is not removed within 30

20     minutes it will be fired upon.'  Shortly after this call the sector

21     commander arrived at the APC location ... "

22             If we now move to 65 ter 23943 and we go to page 6.  It should be

23     the next page probably.  Just a moment, Your Honours.

24             MS. IODICE:  Your Honour, I misspoke.  The 65 ter should be

25     23935.  My apologies again.  The number is 29935.

Page 30918

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, 29935 is not in e-court.

 2             MS. IODICE:  I will leave it, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Mr. Rasevic --

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. IODICE:  Just for a second, Your Honours.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. IODICE:  Your Honours, I'm sorry, the correct number is

 8     23935.  And if we can go to page 6.

 9        Q.   Mr. Rasevic, this document is dated 22nd of August, 1995, and if

10     we go to the bottom of the page at the end it says at -- and I'll read it

11     for you since there's no translation.

12             "At 221425B, 1 X mortar shell and 1 X RPG rocket were fired by

13     BSA soldiers from north-east of Sedrenik ... towards downtown."

14             So do you now agree that Bosnian Serb soldiers in your area were

15     firing at Sedrenik and towards the city and on civilian targets?

16        A.   I don't agree.  I mean, we never fired at civilian targets.  As

17     for this case, I was no longer at Mrkovici, I mean I had left.  So that

18     means that I cannot comment upon this.  But I claim that my unit never,

19     absolutely never, opened fire at the civilian population except for where

20     we had observed their machine-gun nests or mortars or -- I mean those

21     launching ferry boats, what they used to target us, but never, never, I

22     am not aware that that happened.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we kindly ask for a

24     clarification here.  Where is it written that civilians were fired at?

25     And what does this mean, north-east of Sedrenik?

Page 30919

 1             MS. IODICE:  The first document identified two civilians victims,

 2     P1619, on page 3.  This document identifies firing from north-east of

 3     Sedrenik and I can ask the witness.

 4        Q.   North-east of Sedrenik corresponds more or less to your location;

 5     is that right?

 6        A.   Well, you couldn't exactly put it that way.  We were to the north

 7     of Sedrenik.  Now, I mean -- well, Sedrenik is sort of a settlement that

 8     is wider than Spicaste Stijene, so to the north of Sedrenik and to the

 9     north-east, that's where this other hill was and that's where their

10     forces were, opposite us.  The altitude is the same like Spicaste Stijene

11     so that would be it.  So it's a question of 50 or 100 metres.  That's the

12     difference.  So then there is Sedam Suma, seven forests,

13     Podrugav Do [phoen], and other locations that they held.  It was the

14     other side that held that and that is to the north-east.

15        Q.   Mr. Rasevic, this document identified -- identifies the side that

16     was firing towards down-town.  It says from the BSA, which is the acronym

17     for Bosnian Serb army.  This fire wasn't coming from the Muslim

18     positions.  This fire was coming from the Bosnian Serb side.

19        A.   It has to do with these two civilians who were killed, right, at

20     Sedrenik?  Yes?

21        Q.   No, I'm now talking of this document that you have in front of

22     you.  This document says that one mortar shell was fired from the Bosnian

23     Serb side towards down-town.

24        A.   Yes, yes.  I see.  So, so, at that time I was no longer at

25     Mrkovici.  I was no longer company commander there.  I left.  I'm looking

Page 30920

 1     at the date here.  I left.  I went from there, so I cannot confirm this,

 2     I cannot deny it, because I was not there.

 3        Q.   And you also cannot exclude that there was firing from the SRK

 4     positions at Spicaste Stijene; right?

 5        A.   On the basis of this document I cannot.  I was not there and I

 6     really cannot talk about things I haven't seen.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. IODICE:  Your Honours, I would ask for the admission of this

 9     document.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23935 receives number P6028,

13     Your Honours.

14             MS. IODICE:  Just a moment, Your Honours.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MS. IODICE:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

17     witness.  Thank you.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Excellency.  So could

21     the same document please be returned now.  We can finish before the

22     break.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rasevic, now I'm going to read the next line

25     to you.  I'll read it out in English so that they translate it better

Page 30921

 1     than I would.

 2             [In English] "At 221430B, 3 X mortar shells were fired from

 3     Grdonj ... to Stari Grad ..."

 4             [Interpretation] Who held Grdonj?

 5        A.   Grdonj was held by the Muslim forces throughout the war.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the majority population in Stari Grad?

 7        A.   In Stari Grad the majority population was Muslim.

 8        Q.   And which forces held Stari Grad under their control?

 9        A.   Stari Grad was under the control of the Muslim forces.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the lines were about 50 metres away.

11     What would be necessary?  What kind of proximity would be needed to

12     establish from where the fire came, Serb or Muslim, if they're only 50

13     metres away from each other?

14        A.   Well, I mentioned the example of Spicaste Stijene only a moment

15     ago and that other area, Podlugav Brijeg [phoen], we called it that.  I

16     don't know what it's really called.  That's precisely the case because

17     the altitude is the same to the north, or rather to the north-east.  It's

18     the same locations.  So it was very hard there to establish where a

19     sniper shot could have come from, if any.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I have no further

22     questions.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rasevic.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Well, then that concludes your evidence,

Page 30922

 1     Mr. Rasevic.  On behalf of the Chamber I would like to thank you for your

 2     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you're free to go.

 3             We'll rise --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

 5     Your Excellency.  I would also like to thank you for your fairness.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise all together and we'll have a break for

 7     half an hour.  I wanted to tell you this before we started today, but

 8     given that there's a hearing at 3.00 scheduled to take place in this

 9     courtroom, we need to rise at 4.30 and we'll have a -- 2.30, 1430, yes,

10     2.30, we'll have a shorter break for today.

11             We'll resume at 1.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, would the witness take the solemn declaration,

16     please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO CVORO

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

22     comfortable.

23             For this session we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis with

24     Judge Lattanzi being away due to urgent official matters.

25             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 30923

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Cvoro.

 4        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

 6     1D6801.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, did you give a statement to my Defence team?

 9        A.   Yes, I gave a statement that we see here.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

11     approach the microphone.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Cvoro, could you come closer to the microphone

13     so that the interpreters could hear you better.

14             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Did you read this statement and sign it?

20        A.   [Interpretation] I read the statement and signed the statement.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I'm waiting for the interpretation and I'm kindly

22     asking you to pause as well.  When we're speaking Serbian, they're

23     supposed to interpret.

24             Does this statement reflect exactly what you said?

25        A.   Exactly everything I said was written in that statement.

Page 30924

 1        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you here today, would your

 2     answers to these questions essentially be the same?

 3        A.   I hope they would be the same.  Perhaps I could not repeat

 4     everything in the same order, but at any rate it would be the same.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I tender

 7     this package, the statement and eight documents that have not been

 8     admitted and then there's some that have been admitted.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, with respect to two documents referred

10     to in para 13, i.e., 1D800 and the other referred to by the ERN number, I

11     don't think they are either updated or translated into English.  So in

12     order for you to tender to those -- those two documents, you need to put

13     that -- those documents to the witness live.

14             Otherwise, do you have any objection, Mr. Tieger?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Otherwise, no, Mr. President.  I would note that

16     what is currently listed as 1D00841 and for which presumably a Defence

17     exhibit number is sought is already admitted as P00737.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

19             Should we give the number to the witness's Rule 92 ter statement

20     first.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6801 becomes Exhibit D2530,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And as regards the six other documents, associated

24     exhibits, the numbers will be given in due course by the Registrar.

25             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 30925

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I would like to

 2     read out the summary of Mr. Zdravko Cvoro's statement.  I'll read it out

 3     in the English language.

 4             [In English] Zdravko Cvoro was the president of the Crisis Staff

 5     of the Pale municipality.  From the 1st of January, 1992, to the 31st of

 6     August, 1992, he was the president of the Executive Committee of the Pale

 7     municipality.  He was never a member of the SDS.

 8             At the start of the war, the majority of the population living in

 9     Pale was Serbs and a large number of Serb refugees moved from Sarajevo to

10     Pale.  The municipality had difficulties in providing the refugees with

11     accommodation and humanitarian aid and all measures were taken to provide

12     them with the accommodation and basic living conditions.

13             During the war a number of incidents caused fear of retaliation

14     and insecurity among the Muslim population in Pale, as crimes were

15     committed by their compatriots.  These included the killing and wounding

16     of Pale SJB policemen, then the massacre of JNA soldiers and VRS soldiers

17     who were transporting food and other supplies, and the killing and

18     expulsion of a large number of Serbs.  As a result, there were individual

19     and subsequently collective requests to move out from Pale to Sarajevo.

20             Zdravko Cvoro, along with the president of the Pale municipality,

21     personally went to neighbourhoods inhabited by Muslims to convince them

22     to stay and assured them that as municipal officials they would guarantee

23     their safety.  The Pale municipality confirmed it would ensure that

24     Muslims would enjoy all civil rights and normal living conditions.

25     Despite this, a large number of requests to move were received and at a

Page 30926

 1     meeting of 18th of June, 1992, a decision was made by the Pale

 2     municipality Assembly acknowledging the constitutional right to freedom

 3     of movement and residence.

 4             There was no forced expulsion of civilians of Muslim and Croatian

 5     ethnicity from Pale.  Those that left did so at their own request and out

 6     of their own free will.  Many left in organised convoys and took personal

 7     belongings.  Others made agreements with Serb neighbours in relation to

 8     the safekeeping of their property.  Those residents who did not wish to

 9     leave continued to live together with the Serbs.  There was no

10     destruction of non-Serb property in this area, except along the

11     demarcation line and where there was combat activity.

12             The Pale municipality Executive Committee drew up a document

13     requiring the SJB, police station, to undertake the protection of

14     property of non-Serbs until it is taken over by the authorised municipal

15     commission, as well as one regarding the establishment of a commission

16     for refugees and humanitarian aid.  After the war immovable property was

17     returned to owners and a number of Muslims returned to their homes.  Pale

18     Crisis Staff was put in place in case of the regular authorities were

19     unable to meet.  The Crisis Staff was composed of more or less the same

20     people who were in the regular bodies.  The difference was in the way of

21     work, in the sense that regular authorities used to have a period of up

22     to 15 days to make decisions, while the Crisis Staff had to respond in

23     urgent situations, for instance, in an hour's time.  According to the

24     instructions of the Presidency of the SFRY, Yugoslavia, the republics had

25     an obligation to develop plans for emergency and the managers of those

Page 30927

 1     plans were the Crisis Staffs.  In the event of a natural disaster or

 2     other emergency situations, the Crisis Staff was convened with the most

 3     responsible members of the municipality as its members.

 4             According to the law on Territorial Defence at that time, private

 5     resources necessary for the functioning of the authority could be

 6     employed.  The situation was dramatic in terms of telephone lines in

 7     Pale.  There was a grave deficiency in the -- this aspect.  Resultantly,

 8     both Serbs and Muslims had their telephones switched off for this reason.

 9     In addition, the army switched off telephones of other state authorities,

10     including the Ministry of Justice.

11             During the war, the Muslim municipality of Pale was formed, which

12     included Renovica and Praca and other Muslim villages.  If the VRS wanted

13     to take over the Muslim municipality of Pale, it could easily have done

14     so, but it did not because the Muslim population was a majority there.

15     The Muslim community of Pale still exists today with its base in Praca.

16             In Pale, in the centre, there was a Catholic church which had

17     been preserved to this day, while there has never been a mosque in Pale

18     itself.

19             [Interpretation] That would be the summary in view of your

20     decision.  Could we please call up in e-court 1D800, the one that I'm

21     supposed to deal with live with the witness.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, could you please take a look at this and tell us what

24     this report refers to, this SRNA report at the time.  Would you like me

25     to read it out or would you like to read it?

Page 30928

 1        A.   As far as I can see, this has to do with the destruction of

 2     certain lines that were linked with Pale.

 3        Q.   What is the date of this report?

 4        A.   The 28th of April, 1992.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what does it say in the second paragraph?  Can

 6     you read all of it?

 7        A.   "Four sniper shots destroyed the mini link on the building of the

 8     telegraph and the telephone in the street Vojvoda Putnika 100.  From the

 9     moment when telephone traffic was disrupted until the present day,

10     digital links work at only 30 per cent of their capacity."

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us where this street is, Vojvoda

12     Putnika, and what this building is?

13        A.   It is in Sarajevo.  It is the main street that runs by the

14     Marsal Tito barracks, the former Marsal Tito barracks, and it goes

15     towards the Malta neighbourhood.

16        Q.   So how did this reflect on the state of the telephone lines in

17     Pale?

18        A.   Well, we had enough trouble as it was in terms of the number of

19     telephone lines.  Pale was a small municipality that had small telephone

20     capacities.  As these links were destroyed, the situation became much

21     worse and it was very hard to begin with, the situation regarding

22     telephone lines, that is.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And how did you resolve that, in view of the fact

24     that the state organs had their seat there and then there was television

25     and so on, how did you resolve that problem?

Page 30929

 1        A.   When the state organs, or rather, the republic organs moved to

 2     Pale, major problems were created.  First of all, they were supposed to

 3     be provided with accommodation and telephone lines and other lines.  In

 4     addition to the republican organs, the SRNA news agency appeared asking

 5     for proper premises and telephone lines so that they could function.  We

 6     were covered by Sarajevo.  All the information that we received we

 7     received as they wished.  The then-appointed director Todor Dutina came

 8     to see me and asked me to do whatever I could in order to establish the

 9     SRNA news agency.  I asked him, "Well, what have you got Todor?"  And he

10     said, "I've got nothing."  "What do you need, Todor?"  And his answer

11     was, "I need an office, a telephone, and a typewriter."

12             I was president of the Executive Board and from my very own

13     office I gave Mr. Dutina a telephone with a Telefax and also a telephone

14     number and a typewriter.  Then he went on to establish the SRNA news

15     agency.  Many Serbs came to Pale.  Among others, there were people who

16     were familiar with this line of work.  They quickly made do and

17     established the SRNA news agency.  The situation was similar as far as

18     television was concerned too.  Many people asked for telephone lines or

19     telephone numbers.  Also in Pale we also had only primary medical care.

20     All of that was based in the health centre there and the wounded and ill

21     already started coming in.  A reserve war time hospital arrived in Pale

22     and we gave them premises within the Koran hotel and that is where we

23     established a military war time hospital.  Also, many telephone numbers

24     were required by this hospital.

25             I also know full well that for the government and the Presidency

Page 30930

 1     and the Assembly, we practically mobilised all the telephone numbers that

 2     were not indispensable, both in the business sector and the social

 3     services.  It's not only that there weren't enough telephone lines.

 4     There weren't enough telephone sets as such.  From the municipality and

 5     from Famos, we got all the telephone sets and started using them.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much indeed.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted now?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D2531, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             1D25730, can we see that briefly.  It's marked with an ERN number

12     in the statement.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Since there's no translation, Mr. Cvoro, I shall deal with this

15     very quickly, these communications, that is.  So in the fourth line from

16     above Slobodan Aviljas is calling the Crisis Staff and introduces himself

17     by saying that as the Minister of Justice, Slobo Aviljas.  Did you know

18     him and did he work at the Ministry of Justice?

19        A.   Yes, I knew him personally, and we actually did our military

20     service together before.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Further down it says Slobodan Aviljas, Aco Kutlaca is

22     the interlocutor.  It says:

23             "Listen, I am in the post office right now.  I'm calling here

24     from the hospital.  Somebody disconnected the telephone of the duty

25     judges up there where we are sleeping."

Page 30931

 1             Further down Kutlaca says:

 2             "Let me tell you, this was disconnected on orders from the

 3     commander.  You have to submit a request in writing in order to be

 4     reconnected."

 5             How come this happened?  Is this in line with what you told us

 6     about, that you had these problems and that you even disconnected the

 7     telephone of the Ministry of Justice?

 8        A.   This confirms what I said, that we disconnected the telephones of

 9     many institutions.  Among others, this thing happened too and --

10             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry to interrupt the witness, but I think this

11     is in line with the guidance the accused received before about questions

12     that are necessarily leading.  This has been throughout a kind of an

13     invitation for witnesses to -- presenting material to him that we can't

14     even read in full and then leading the witness to what the point that

15     Dr. Karadzic wants him to affirm.  Under the circumstances, I certainly

16     didn't object to the attempt to use the document, but I think it needs to

17     be used fairly.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I would like to respond.

20     Just a moment, please.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can rephrase, but the fact

23     remains that the Prosecution is reading only parts of documents to

24     witnesses and then I have to spend my time in re-direct.  And of course I

25     can rephrase this.  I can just ask:  How does this read in terms of your

Page 30932

 1     own experience?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to say something?

 3     You're asking me, President, aren't you?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Yes, if the Trial Chamber allows me to do so, I'm asking you how

 6     this reads in terms of your own experience with insufficient number of

 7     telephone lines?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, given the -- this Trial Chamber's

 9     practice as regards the admission of intercepts, I don't think there's a

10     point on your part to putting this witness -- to the witness.  Why don't

11     you just elicit from the witness directly as to the telephone situation

12     without having to rely on this intercept.  We have difficulty following

13     this line of questioning without the interpretation.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  Maybe I can ask

15     this way.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is it correct that --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, before you -- if you start your

21     question:  Is it correct, that is a leading question.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  Thank you.

23     Everything you said is correct.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Now, who was it that you denied telephone lines for the needs of

Page 30933

 1     the state organs and on what basis did you do that?

 2        A.   Well, look, the federal law on defence regulated things as

 3     follows.  In case of war or imminent threat of war, all resources can be

 4     mobilised, all resources that can be used for the defence of the country,

 5     or rather, the defence of the territory involved.  That means that in

 6     addition to the resources that the army has, that the business community

 7     has, even personal resources can be mobilised for the defence of the

 8     state or the defence of the territory, in keeping with that, even in

 9     peace time conditions according to that law, when military exercises are

10     carried out, it wasn't only military conscripts that were mobilised.

11     Also materiel resources were mobilised, such as vehicles, scooters,

12     motorboats, and other resources that are needed for military exercises.

13             In war time the situation is even more drastic.  So the situation

14     that we had to deal with was that we could not function, that we could

15     not meet all these needs that had cropped up, so we disconnected

16     telephones of Serbs too.  I as president of the Executive Board did not

17     have a telephone either; that is to say, I gave up my own telephone so

18     that other organs could function, Serbs, companies, some of the Muslims

19     who had received this order.  I can say that I did not even sign this

20     order, but I'm trying to explain what the reasons were for this order.

21     It is provided here as a document bearing my name and surname.

22        Q.   Thank you.  If you don't wish to it admit this intercept which

23     just proves that the ministry was also left without a telephone, then I

24     have no further questions.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 30934

 1             Mr. Cvoro, as you have noted, your evidence in chief was admitted

 2     mainly in written form in view of your oral testimony.  Now you'll be

 3     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

 4             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  I want to speak to you first about this

 8     aspect of your statement and it concerns these paragraphs.  I want to

 9     talk to you about the portions of your statement which assert that

10     Muslims became insecure because they feared retaliation for what their

11     "compatriots" had done, that's paragraph 4.  And so they sought to leave,

12     although Serb officials tried to convince them to stay, that's paragraphs

13     5 through 6.  So they left of their own free will, paragraph 6, in

14     organised convoys with their personal belongings and documents, and they

15     protected their property by entering into various agreements with their

16     Serb neighbours or through other arrangements, that's paragraphs 7

17     through 8.  And I want to look at your assertion that Muslims left

18     voluntarily of their own free will.

19             This Court has heard evidence, Mr. Cvoro, that, among other

20     things, the Bosnian Serb police in Pale harassed, threatened, or

21     pressured Muslims to leave, and that's found at P0733, paragraphs 23

22     through 27, 33 through 34, 39, and 49.  Mr. Cvoro, that was, in fact,

23     part of the reality that Muslims faced that made their departure not an

24     act of free will and not voluntary; isn't that right?

25        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, the police was not under the jurisdiction of the

Page 30935

 1     local authorities.  I didn't have any authority over the police.  They

 2     have their vertical chain of structure.  That was the case before the war

 3     and that is the case nowadays.  My only influence on the police would be

 4     in the form of a request or a recommendation.  There was no other way for

 5     me to influence the work of the police.

 6        Q.   Well -- and I'll talk with you a bit further about that in a bit,

 7     Mr. Cvoro.  But for the moment I simply want to confirm, as I think you

 8     impliedly did, that, in fact, the police in Pale, that is, the Bosnian

 9     Serb police, engaged in efforts to force Muslims out?

10        A.   I am not aware of that; however, we provided document D28 which

11     shows that the municipality of Pale in response to the written request of

12     the Muslims to move out responded to it and that happened somewhere in

13     early April.  They said that there was no reason for them to --

14        Q.   Excuse me, I know there are other documents and I see you want to

15     direct our attention to another issue.  I'm focusing on the actions of

16     the police.  Now, you said you weren't aware of that, but the fact is,

17     Mr. Cvoro, that that's exactly what you said in 1992, that the police

18     were engaged in such conduct.  And I want to turn your attention to

19     D00031, a meeting of the Pale Municipal Assembly on the 18th of June,

20     1992.  But, in fact, before we go there I want to point out -- I want to

21     show you and I want you to tell the Court how that meeting came about, so

22     let's turn to D0030, a document of 12 June 1992.

23        A.   What document is that?

24        Q.   It will be shown on the screen to you, sir.  It should be in

25     front of you right now.

Page 30936

 1        A.   This is Mr. Starcevic, the president of the municipality.  He is

 2     sending it to the secretary of the Pale SDS.  I was a representative of

 3     the executive branch and the president of the municipality --

 4        Q.   I'm sorry, and I don't mean to raise my voice but I'm trying to

 5     move us along quickly, so I only did that -- it's the only way I know how

 6     to stop you for a moment.

 7             I want you to confirm that this document is, in fact, a message

 8     from the president of the Pale Municipal Assembly, Starcevic, who is

 9     asking the secretary of the Pale SDS to urgently call a meeting of the

10     Pale SDS Main Board so that the party can adopt a general position on the

11     moving out of non-Serbian population from Pale.  And he notes that if the

12     Main Board, that is, the SDS Main Board, can meet as soon as possible

13     then a session of the Municipal Assembly can be called for 18 June 1992.

14             Now, as far as you're aware, that's what happened on June 12th,

15     that Mr. Starcevic pushed the --

16        A.   Yes, that is correct.

17        Q.   Okay.  And in fact in terms of the link or the interconnection

18     between the municipality and the party, I'd also like to turn to 65 ter

19     24210.  And we'll get to the 18 June meeting in just a moment.  This is a

20     document dated 26th of May, 1992.  It bears your signature.  It's a

21     request for allotment of funds --

22        A.   Yes, addressed to the government of Republika Srpska.

23        Q.   And if we continue on to page -- the next page of the English,

24     please, it includes some of the expenditures of the municipality.  And we

25     see -- we have to continue to the next page of the English, I'm sorry, or

Page 30937

 1     just scroll down, please, on the English so the Judges can see it.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  In B/C/S as well.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  Perhaps if we turn to page -- the next page

 4     in the English as well, please.

 5        Q.   We see at the top of the -- toward the top of the page in English

 6     a payment to the Serb Democratic Party Pale of 100.000 dinars, I take it.

 7     And if we turn to the next page in English, we see in the middle of the

 8     page funding of the Serb Democratic Party Pale has been stated according

 9     to their needs.  So this document, sir, is a reflection of the financial

10     support by the municipality to the Pale SDS?

11        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, in the regular budget there were always

12     allocations intended for the financing of political parties.  Therefore,

13     there is nothing illegal in this because the SDS party was a party that

14     had absolute power in Pale.  The individuals who held official positions,

15     most of them were appointed by the party.  This is only a request for the

16     provision of fund to finance only one portion, and that is specifically

17     the costs in the month of May.  One can see the breakdown of the funds

18     and what the needs are, and that's the difference.  Obviously there was a

19     need to provide a small portion of financing to the party as well.

20        Q.   That's adequate, Mr. Cvoro.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And I tender that document, Mr. President.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24210 becomes Exhibit P6029,

25     Your Honours.

Page 30938

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   And if we could now turn to the June 18th meeting which is

 3     D00031.  Now, there appear to be two items on the agenda, Mr. Cvoro, as

 4     reflected on page 2 of the English.  The first item is a report on the

 5     security situation and, as we see in the document,

 6     Lieutenant-Colonel Krstic takes the floor at one point and reports.  But

 7     the second item is the one referred to in the document we saw earlier

 8     from Mr. Starcevic, and that is position to be taken by the Assembly on

 9     non-Serbs moving out of the territory of Pale municipality.

10             And if we turn to item 2 which is located on the -- begins on the

11     fourth page of the English and I believe the same page in B/C/S.  We can

12     see that there are various opinions provided by the attendees ranging

13     from the view that the government should first pass a decision and the

14     municipality would follow that to that there should be exchanges that

15     govern the transfer to UNPROFOR should handle it and so on.  But I wanted

16     to look at what was stated at the bottom of the page in English by the

17     president of the municipality and the chairman of the Executive

18     Committee.  Now, the chairman of the Executive Committee is you,

19     Mr. Cvoro; correct?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   And there you and the president of the Assembly object to the

22     activities of the public security station, that's the police, because it

23     had participated in the attempt to organise the Muslims and move them

24     out.  You go on to say that was before a political decision had been made

25     and thus bypassing the official structures of power.

Page 30939

 1             Now, Mr. Cvoro, that's a reflection in 1992 of the fact -- of

 2     your awareness of the activities of the police to get Muslims out of

 3     Pale; correct?

 4        A.   No, we were not satisfied with some of the work on the ground

 5     done by the police, and we sent a request, or rather, a protest demanding

 6     that this situation be rectified.  I cannot say generally that the police

 7     was involved in such activities because I have no knowledge about that.

 8        Q.   Now, with respect to the issue of the moving out of the Muslims

 9     which is item 2 of this agenda and which was raised by Mr. Starcevic,

10     that was not a concern or issue that was isolated to Pale.  In fact, the

11     issue of the moving out of the Muslims was being addressed elsewhere in

12     RS by RS officials; correct?

13        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I know about Pale and I can guarantee you

14     that there was no forced moving out of the Muslims from Pale.  We did our

15     best by going on the ground.  I myself went two or three times to the

16     villages where Muslims lived and I tried to persuade them --

17        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, sorry, that's in your statement and I'm trying to use

18     our time as efficiently as we can.  My question was about whether or not

19     the issue of moving out of the Muslims was simply something that arose in

20     Pale or was being addressed in other parts of the RS.  And in that

21     connection I'd like to turn to 65 ter 00580.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're doing that I think that

23     the witness should in general be allowed to complete his answers because

24     it's -- if there's a shortage of time, it's not really an excuse to be

25     rude to the witness.

Page 30940

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Let me --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  It just occurred to me how the terms

 3     would be translated into B/C/S.  When we say "moving out," it may be

 4     transitive verb and intransitive verb.  Is there a difference?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I do take the point -- the Court's point, and so I'm

 6     trying to rely on the translations provided, and then I think we can,

 7     among other things, rely on the totality of the evidence to understand

 8     the meaning of the term.  But in terms of the strict usage of that term

 9     in English, I'm attempting to follow the translations I've been provided.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

11             Yes, bearing that in mind, let's continue.

12             MR. TIEGER:  And, Mr. President, with respect to Mr. Robinson's

13     issue, time is a concern for a variety of reasons which I'm happy to

14     identify for the Court, but my -- my moments of interrupting the witness

15     are a reflection of that.  So if -- given the nature of this week and the

16     fact that we will have down time this week because of the number of

17     witnesses that will be -- that translated, I'm more than willing to be

18     less vigilant about curtailing the witness if I'm assured that I'm not

19     going to be unfairly held to a -- an arbitrary limit, provided that I'm

20     focusing on relevant materials, as I'm clearly doing.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we leave the matter there and could you --

22     could you ask the question again.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Sure.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Because it was my impression that the witness was

25     not following your question properly, probably because of the translation

Page 30941

 1     issue.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Okay, that's fine.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's give it a try again.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Fine.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, just to make sure we're talking about the same

 6     matter, we had looked a few moments ago at Mr. Starcevic's request for a

 7     position by the Pale SDS Main Board about the moving out of the Muslims.

 8     We had looked at the agenda item on the 18 June Municipal Assembly

 9     session.  An item which provided -- which asked -- for which the agenda

10     was position to be taken by the Assembly on non-Serbs moving out of the

11     territory.  And then my question for you was about whether this -- in

12     fact, I was stating to you the fact that this issue concerning the moving

13     out of the Muslims was not one that arose in Pale only but that was being

14     addressed elsewhere in the RS.  And you said that you were not -- you

15     claimed that you were not aware of that as I understood.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Just, that's the problem with paraphrasing.  If

17     Mr. Robinson thinks that's a problem, then he can read out where we are

18     now.  I'm trying to bring the witness up-to-date.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Let's make the question simpler.  So what is your

20     question, Mr. Tieger?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I'll repeat what I said verbatim before Mr. Robinson

22     made his objection.

23        Q.   My question was whether the issue of the moving out of the

24     Muslims was simply something that arose in Pale or was being addressed in

25     other parts of the RS.  And that had been --

Page 30942

 1        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, as far as other parts of the RS are concerned, I

 2     don't know.  I was the representative of the executive branch.  The

 3     initiative for the moving out was launched by the Muslims themselves.

 4     They came to see me both individually and in groups.  They also came to

 5     see Mr. Starcevic.  Mr. Starcevic then --

 6        Q.   I am going to interrupt.

 7        A.   -- launched an initiative to address this issue --

 8        Q.   Excuse me, Witness.

 9        A.   -- at the highest level at the municipality.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think you answered the question, Mr. --

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yes --

12             JUDGE KWON:  -- Cvoro.  Let's continue.

13             MR. TIEGER:  The witness answered the question and then proceeded

14     to repeat various parts of his statement.

15        Q.   Witness, I want you to look at this exhibit.  This is an article

16     from Javnost and it refers to the government of the Serbian autonomous

17     region of Birac, and specifically in the second paragraph it refers to a

18     decision passed on the "safe moving of Muslims from that area."  The

19     suggestion to the neighbouring Muslim-Croat municipalities to organise

20     this within seven days.  And the reason given by the government to take

21     that step, as it says, as a result of crimes Muslim extremists carried

22     out against Serbs in this area.

23             Now, Mr. Cvoro, this is, is it not, a reflection -- and this is,

24     by the way, the 6th of June, as you can see, this is a reflection of the

25     same discussion that you alluded to going on in other parts of the RS at

Page 30943

 1     approximately the same time; correct?

 2        A.   This has nothing to do with this text.  This is the first time

 3     that I see it and I can categorically assert that I'm not familiar with

 4     this manner.  This was beyond my scope of responsibility.  I was

 5     addressing the problems relating to the Muslims in Pale and that was all.

 6     That was my task and my objective and I think that I successfully

 7     achieved it.

 8        Q.   Very well.  I'll move on --

 9             MR. TIEGER:  But I tender this document, Mr. President.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  This is a classic

11     example of something that cannot be admitted because it doesn't directly

12     contradict the witness.  It isn't written by or for anybody within his

13     purview or his sphere.  So he wouldn't be expected to know anything about

14     this.

15             JUDGE KWON:  However, did the witness not say that he didn't know

16     whether similar things were happening in other regions?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, and this doesn't contradict that whatsoever.

18     If similar things were happening in other regions, that's one thing.  But

19     if he knew -- the question is whether he knew, and this doesn't shed

20     light on that at all.  If it was something he would be expected to have

21     seen, such as something in his municipality, in his organ, okay, it

22     should be admitted.  But simply the way this is so general and so

23     unconnected to his own duties and position that it's not admissible in

24     our view.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.

Page 30944

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, would you like to respond?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, I do wish to respond.  That is an inaccurate

 3     and unduly restrictive interpretation of impeachment.  This witness -- I

 4     mean, it certainly is possible to impeach a witness -- and by the way, I

 5     would like to ask if the witness -- I think we've been a little bit too

 6     lax about arguing objections in front of witnesses, so we may want to

 7     determine whether this witness speaks English; and if he does not, then I

 8     think we should continue the discussion with his headphones off.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, it's certainly possible to impeach a witness

12     with direct evidence, that the activities he says he engaged in are

13     contradicted by the documents, but the reality here is that this witness

14     is not being proffered for a travel log of his own -- merely his own

15     activities during the war.  He's being proffered to show that this was --

16     that what happened in Pale was spontaneous, voluntary, and unrelated to

17     any policy by the leadership.  And his -- apart from the fact that given

18     his proximity, his physical proximity, to the leadership in Pale gives

19     rise to at least a realistic impeachment of the claim that he didn't know

20     anything about what was happening elsewhere.  It also is a contradiction

21     of the general proposition raised by the Defence in proffering this

22     witness at all; that is, this is a purely isolated individual

23     municipality thing that had nothing to do with policy.  And we surely are

24     entitled to combat that with evidence that it was happening across the

25     RS.  And I would note also, and I'll be happy to take it up with the

Page 30945

 1     witness, that 65 ter 15087 reveals clearly that Javnost is a party organ

 2     and so there is that additional confirmation.  This is information that

 3     the party wanted to disseminate.

 4             THE ACCUSED:  May I, Excellency?

 5             I'll respond in English.  This witness hasn't been invited for

 6     the purpose that Mr. Tieger said, but for the purpose of refuting what

 7     was done by the Prosecution concerning this very municipality, which is

 8     in the indictment.  And this is the top of the executive power in this

 9     municipality, very responsible man and very responsible authority, who

10     was not a member of SDS.  And I don't see any reason to go throughout

11     Republika Srpska.  We are dealing with this municipality.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber finds the document to be relevant to the

15     credibility of the witness and will receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 00580 receives number P6030,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Cvoro, for your co-operation.

19             Please continue, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Now, continuing in connection with the issues raised by the

22     paragraphs in your statement that I alluded to at the outset, this

23     Trial Chamber has also heard evidence that another factor leading Muslims

24     in Pale to conclude that they had no choice but to leave was the arrival

25     in Pale of badly beaten Muslim civilians who had been expelled from

Page 30946

 1     Bratunac in May 1992 and which was one way that Muslims in Pale learned

 2     what was in store if they didn't leave "voluntarily."

 3             Now, I'd like you to look at a few moments of P3206, a video.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, do you recognise these battered men as among the group

 7     of Muslims that were -- that passed through Pale in the middle of May

 8     1992?

 9        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know anything about who brought these

10     Muslims to Pale by what means and who sent them on.  I do know that we

11     reacted promptly.  We gathered the Crisis Staff and went to see someone

12     from the authorities, trying to tell them that such things ought not

13     happen in Pale and that these Muslims have to be released, or rather,

14     allowed to join their compatriots.  Thanks to the president and the prime

15     minister, this was done quickly.  As far as I am concerned, I was not

16     involved in any of it.  I didn't know about it.  I was just awakened in

17     the middle of the night by the police who said, "We have many Muslims who

18     were brought in Pale by someone and left there."  Do you know what it

19     means to bring someone and leave them there in that situation?  Could we

20     have done anything other than accommodate them and provide them with the

21     basic necessities as well as to ask that they go to where they belonged?

22     This was indeed done promptly.

23        Q.   And just for the record, Mr. President, that went from 00.53 to

24     001:39.5.

25             The Crisis Staff was directed by the government to transport

Page 30947

 1     those prisoners out of Pale and into Muslim territory; correct?

 2        A.   I don't know who was in charge of that activity, but I do know

 3     that security was provided by the police and other units.  They left Pale

 4     safely.  There was also a problem how to secure means of transport and

 5     how to accommodate them.  How to move them securely.  We found certain

 6     trucks where they could be put on so that they wouldn't cause problems or

 7     that some Serbs wouldn't do anything stupid.  As far as I know, they

 8     arrived there and they reported themselves there and were safe and sound.

 9        Q.   The Trial Chamber, Mr. Cvoro, has also heard evidence that yet

10     another reason why the Muslims who departed Pale did not feel they had

11     any real choice but to leave was the presence of notorious paramilitaries

12     not only in the municipality but actually "put up at the Panorama Hotel,"

13     and that's P0733 paragraphs 39 through 40.  And that too, Mr. Cvoro, was

14     part of the reality of Pale, correct, that notorious paramilitary figures

15     were put up at the Panorama Hotel?

16        A.   I had no contact with such forces.  At the Panorama there were

17     refugees from Croatia.  They were accommodated at the Panorama.  In 1994

18     we also received a great number of refugees from Croatia who stayed there

19     until late May.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  1991.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on we were unable to

22     accommodate them any further and we sent them on to Serbia.  I don't know

23     of any paramilitary organisations or armed forces who were there at the

24     time.  I did not meet such people, and I'm very sorry but I can't help

25     you on this topic.

Page 30948

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   Well, let's look quickly at P01107, a document dated the 10th of

 3     August, 1992.  And if we turn to the next page in English, please.  Next

 4     page, please, I'm sorry.

 5             As you see at the top:

 6             "It was stated that while inspecting the Pale public security

 7     station that a group of 'Arkanovci' are still present at the 'Panorama'

 8     Hotel.  Chief Koroman presents that as a solved problem because he is

 9     expecting their commander in a couple of days with whom he would solve it

10     without a problem."

11             And I think you've seen the cover page of this document,

12     Mr. Cvoro.  This is a reflection, is it not, of the presence of

13     paramilitary figures put up at the Panorama Hotel in 1992?

14        A.   I tell you again, in August there was the Executive Council.  I

15     was the main person in the executive authority.  I had no jurisdiction

16     over the police.  The army and the police had their own affairs and I did

17     not meddle in that.  That's all I know.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, the Trial Chamber's also heard evidence,

19     again I'm referring to those portions of your statement indicating that

20     Muslims left of their own free will, evidence that one of the reasons why

21     the Muslims in Pale felt they did not have a free choice about whether to

22     leave was because Nikola Koljevic, one of the members of the collective

23     Presidency at that time and who later assumed the position of

24     vice-president of RS, essentially encouraged them to leave by telling

25     them they were not wanted and, therefore, should not stay, that's P0733,

Page 30949

 1     paragraph 38.

 2             Now, I note that was -- that's not something included in your

 3     statement.  Do you purport to be aware of Mr. Koljevic's positions

 4     regarding population transfers?

 5        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I am not familiar with that and I don't know how

 6     I could control Mr. Koljevic in any way.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir, then I'll move on.  For the benefit of the

 8     Chamber I would refer, among other things, to P00986 and P00794.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  [Microphone not activated]

10             MR. TIEGER:  Okay, that is a bit of an argument, I understand.

11     But that has been done in the past for -- in order to avoid confronting

12     the witness, but I accept that.

13        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, in paragraph 15 of your statement, you say that some

14     people came to verify the agreements concerning property, regarding

15     protecting each other's property.  And you emphasise in your -- in

16     paragraph 15 that this applied to both Serbs and non-Serbs, and I

17     understand this to be your effort to show that people were independently

18     interested in leaving and so some of them came to the municipality just

19     to make sure that their agreements would be honoured.  Is that basically

20     it?

21        A.   You see, this is how it was.  Pale is a small community.  Muslims

22     and Serbs knew each other well.  Many Serbs and many Muslims who lived in

23     Sarajevo had their own homes, houses, and apartments.  When the Serbs

24     arrived in Pale, they had acquaintances and lifelong friends with whom

25     they stayed in contact.  People tried to protect their property.  The

Page 30950

 1     Serbs who had already left and the Muslims who were supposed to leave got

 2     together.  They came to the municipality to legalise such arrangements.

 3     We did not accept that because there was no legal basis under the war

 4     time circumstances.

 5        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, the fact of the matter is that non-Serbs who sought to

 6     leave were not permitted to do so until a list of their property was made

 7     and that property taken over by the municipality; isn't that the reality

 8     why people came to the municipality --

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Well, let's look at P00738, please.

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   P738 is a document dated the 6th of July, 1992.  And it bears

13     your signature as well as the signature of the commander of the civilian

14     protection staff, Mr. Blagojevic.  And it provides that the Pale police

15     station is requested to take immediate measures to protect the property

16     of non-Serbian inhabitants who have moved out of the territory until this

17     property is taken over by an authorised municipal commission.  And it

18     provides in part 2:

19             "Individuals or families of non-Serbian ethnicities who wish to

20     leave the territory of Pale municipality must not be allowed to do so

21     until a list of their property is made and the property is taken over in

22     accordance with the regulations in force ..."

23             So contrary to the suggestion in paragraph 15 of your statement,

24     Mr. Cvoro, this document is directed at the non-Serbian population and

25     compels them to deal with municipal officials to make sure that a list of

Page 30951

 1     their property is made and provided to those officials; correct?

 2        A.   You see, we informed the police station to secure such parts of

 3     territory where there were non-Serb residents, given the fact that there

 4     had already come in some requests for their moving out.  We organised

 5     municipal commissions which were to take over responsibility for the

 6     property left behind by the Muslims.  The station was only included from

 7     the point of view of security of people working in the field.  The

 8     commissions in question had to make up lists of property and inventory

 9     left behind by the Muslims.  Also in item 2 it became a problem that many

10     Muslims - I cannot speak for the Croats because they did not move out,

11     they remained in Pale - but many left without a hand-over and there was a

12     problem.  The problem was that there were people trying to steal that

13     property.  That is why we informed the police station to secure the

14     property.  The civilian protection staff commander was in charge of

15     gathering -- actually, of securing the property and preserving both

16     movable and immovable assets.

17        Q.   And when you talk about securing and preserving the property, and

18     when you refer in your statement to protecting that property at paragraph

19     6 or 7 or 15, that protection was not for the Muslims who had given up

20     the property so they could leave the municipality, but it was protection

21     so that the property would end up in the hands of the commodity reserves

22     of Republika Srpska?  That's where that property was going?  Yes or no

23     and then I want to direct you to a couple of documents in connection with

24     that.

25        A.   Property was protected, although I can't say it was 100 per cent.

Page 30952

 1     There was looting.  We tried our best to protect all property, movable

 2     and immovable.  The greatest problem was immovable property.  We tried to

 3     have it gathered in one place and stored, be it in the garrison command

 4     premises or in some other institutions.  In charge of all that was the

 5     civilian protection staff.  We weren't too pleased with the work of those

 6     commissions, and later on we established audit commissions because there

 7     were abuses.  And the audit commissions were in charge of screening what

 8     the real situation was in the field and where those abuses occurred.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, we still have the document of the 6th of July up

10     there, and why don't we look at the preamble which provides that:

11             "Pursuant to Article 86 of the Statute of Pale municipality,"

12     which I presume invests -- or vests the chairman of the Executive Board

13     and others with appropriate authority, "and the instructions of the

14     Government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina regulating

15     the distribution of war booty ..."

16             So this document and the conclusions reflected in it, including

17     the fact that non-Serbs who wished to leave will not be permitted to do

18     so until a list of their property is made, is pursuant to the government

19     regulations on collecting war booty.  Isn't that right?

20        A.   I wouldn't call it war booty.  In any case, we wanted to protect

21     that property so that it didn't go to people who didn't need it.  Only by

22     having a proper list could we gain a clear insight into what the

23     situation was like in the field.  That's why we established such

24     commissions which were tasked with creating appropriate lists.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not who didn't need it, it

Page 30953

 1     says -- it should be who it did not belong in terms of rights.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Well, let's be clear on what this document refers to.  It refers

 4     to the instructions of the government of regulating the distribution of

 5     war booty.  So let's look quickly at two documents.  One of those is

 6     already in evidence, P05502.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Apologies, I was only trying to say

 8     that the words in line 21 are not interpreted accurately.  The witness

 9     said that the property was kept safe so that it wouldn't go to those who

10     had no right to enjoy it.  And not to those "who didn't need it."

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   These are the July 13th instructions and the implementation of

14     the decree concerning war booty.  And in particular I direct your

15     attention to the first line of the -- item 1, which refers to the fact

16     that this regulates in greater detail the application and means of

17     implementation of the earlier decree, which was number 8 of the

18     Official Gazette/892, number 8 of the Official Gazette 1992, and in that

19     connection I would turn your attention to 65 ter 17747, which is number 8

20     of the Official Gazette of 1992.  And we can see from the last page and

21     you can see it there on the Serbian that that's dated the 2nd of June,

22     1992, and it provides, among other things, in Article 2 that a municipal

23     commission will be set up to receive the valuables, that commission will

24     keep them until they are delivered to the treasury of the national bank

25     of the Serbian Republic of BiH, or Article 5 which provides that the

Page 30954

 1     municipal commission shall take care of the movable property and assets

 2     pending their delivery to the republic's emergency reserves.

 3             So this is the document concerning war booty and regulating the

 4     distribution of war booty to which the preamble of P738, that is, the

 5     July 6 document refers; right?

 6        A.   It is a governmental decree which was binding on all organs of

 7     the authorities for all organs of the executive branch.  I see nothing

 8     that is in dispute there.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that document, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit 6031.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Cvoro, the commission referred to in Exhibit 6031 that

16     we just looked at, that is, the commission that is supposed to take care

17     of the movable property and assets pending delivery to the republic's

18     emergency reserves is reflected in D00034.  And I'd like you to look at

19     that quickly.  This is a document dated the 14th of July which bears your

20     signature, Cvoro, and it refers to the fact that given -- the conclusion

21     that given the fact that the central commission and subcommissions in

22     charge of making a list of movable and immovable property of non-Serbian

23     citizens have not completed their tasks and there have been resulting

24     problems.

25             So that document, Mr. Cvoro, refers to the commission which is

Page 30955

 1     envisioned by the government decree we looked at a moment ago.

 2        A.   This first and foremost has to do with the commission established

 3     by the Executive Board, that is, the previous commission.  We were not

 4     happy with the work of that commission and it is stated here that given

 5     the fact that the central commission and subcommissions in charge of

 6     making a list of movable and immovable property of non-Serb citizens who

 7     have left Pale municipality have not fully completed their tasks.  And as

 8     I have explained a moment ago, we established a separate audit commission

 9     to check the work of the previous commission and what had been done, so

10     as to come up with the appropriate results, the real results.  The

11     problem were rural areas where Muslims had lived, where there was plenty

12     of abandoned cattle, and that was where the focus was.  There was a lot

13     of misappropriation and we were not happy with that segment of their

14     work.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I note --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we adjourn for today?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  You will continue tomorrow.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  You will have about ten minutes tomorrow.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, ten minutes won't quite do.  I've

22     been really -- I can tell you that I marked this out very, very

23     carefully, and I can advise the Court of several factors which make it

24     much different, if the Court needs that information, but I don't think

25     I'll need a great deal of time but I certainly more than ten minutes.

Page 30956

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 4             Mr. Cvoro, we'll adjourn for today and continue tomorrow, but in

 5     the meantime you are not supposed to discuss with anybody else about your

 6     testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of

11                           December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.