Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30957

 1                           Wednesday, 5 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Cvoro.

 8             Please continue, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO CVORO [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Cvoro.  Yesterday at page 3093 -- excuse me,

14     30929, I believe, yeah, you spoke about the establishment of the SRNA

15     news agency, and in particular focusing on Mr. Todor Dutina and his

16     efforts.  I just wanted to clarify one thing about SRNA.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And in that respect and I'd like to call up

18     65 ter 17412.

19        Q.   You'll see before you in Serbian, and in a moment the Court

20     should see in English, the decision on the forming of the Serb news

21     agency SRNA, and I'm not sure why we're not seeing the English.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  There's no English translation in e-court,

23     Your Honour.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. TIEGER:  I'm going to move on quickly to a couple of other

Page 30958

 1     topics and we'll return when the English has been uploaded so that the

 2     Court can also see.

 3        Q.   You stated in your witness statement at paragraph 15 that -- you

 4     mention the Catholic church in the centre of Pale which was preserved

 5     that day and then stated that there was never a mosque in Pale.

 6        A.   There was not a single mosque in Pale; however, there was another

 7     mosque or there was a mosque some 10 kilometres away from Pale.  So in

 8     Pale itself there was no mosque.

 9        Q.   All right.  So in fact, Mr. Cvoro, there were three -- at least

10     three mosques in Pale municipality, all of which --

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   -- all of which were destroyed or damaged during the war.

13             MR. TIEGER:  And in that respect I'd like to turn, please, to

14     65 ter 13853B.

15             Your Honours and counsel, this is an excerpt from P04070, and

16     specifically from pages 205 through 210 of that exhibit, which is a

17     broader exhibit referring to mosques around RS territory.  But for ease

18     of reference and for purposes of more easily showing it in court, we've

19     created a separate exhibit number.  That's shown on the screen.  I'd like

20     to turn first to the first page, and if we can see those two photographs.

21        Q.   This depicts the mosque at Praca, both before --

22        A.   Prace.

23        Q.   Prace, thank you, sir, before and after.

24             If we could turn to page 2 of the e-court, we'll see the mosque

25     at Podvitez which was also destroyed, and finally, on page 3, the mosque

Page 30959

 1     at Bogovici which was also destroyed.

 2             So, in fact, Mr. Cvoro, the reference in page 15 to never having

 3     been a mosque in Pale is a limited reference to the centre of Pale, that

 4     is, Pale town, and does not reflect the fact that three mosques in Pale

 5     municipality not only existed but were destroyed.  You're nodding your

 6     head "yes."  You just have to answer audibly "yes" if that's the case.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, you are correct.  These mosques indeed existed in

10     the territory of Pale municipality.  They were preserved as long as I was

11     in power and while the Muslim population was still present.  I don't know

12     what happened later on.  I do know that in Prace there was a separation

13     line there and there was combat.  Now, whether it was destroyed under

14     those circumstances or later on, that's something I can't say.

15        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I'll tender that 65 ter number, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder why do we need to --

18             MR. TIEGER:  That's true it's --

19             JUDGE KWON:  -- admit it separately --

20             MR. TIEGER:  I think you're right about that.  The purpose was to

21     be able to more easily show it to the Court and it obviously exists in

22     P4070, so you're quite correct.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MR. TIEGER:  If we could quickly return to --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I only briefly.  My objection

Page 30960

 1     stands.  We have no proof that, for example, the first photograph was

 2     taken from the same place about the same place.  We see a dome on one end

 3     of the photograph --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and some trees.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It's not for you to intervene at this time,

 7     Mr. Karadzic.

 8             Let's continue --

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  -- Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, I began our session today by asking you about SRNA.

13     We called up the Official Gazette in the Serbian language, didn't have

14     the English; we have that now.

15             MR. TIEGER:  So if we could call up 17412 we'll see both the

16     Serbian and the English.

17        Q.   As I mentioned, this arose because of your brief discussion about

18     the establishment of SRNA and the focus on Mr. Dutina, and I simply

19     wanted to establish, as we see here, that SRNA was established by the

20     authorities of Republika Srpska and was funded from the budget of

21     Republika Srpska; correct?

22        A.   I believe it is.  I assisted the news agency SRNA financially and

23     I've already explained how and in what way.  In other words, I found

24     premises for their operation and I provided the minimum amount needed for

25     the SRNA agency to become operational.  I had no authority to establish

Page 30961

 1     it and it was not part of the remit of municipal authorities.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  And I tender 17412 , Mr. President.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 17412 becomes Exhibit P6032,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, in paragraph 14 of your statement you mention what you

10     refer to as the Muslim municipality of Pale which included Renovica and

11     Prace, Prace as you pointed out earlier, and stated if the VRS wanted to

12     take over the Muslim municipality of Pale it could easily have done so,

13     but it did not because the Muslim population was the majority there.  And

14     as mentioned, you indicated that the -- this municipality included

15     Renovica and Prace.  Those are the two villages you specifically

16     mentioned.

17             MR. TIEGER:  I'd like to look at 65 ter 23869, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, this is a regular combat report to the Main Staff

19     dated October 14th, 1992.  And as we can see in item 2, it relates that:

20             Our units are continuing offensive operations in the Renovica

21     sector and have liberated Renovica.

22             So, in fact, Mr. Cvoro, contrary to the indication in

23     paragraph 14 of your statement, the VRS in fact took over Renovica,

24     notwithstanding the fact, as you relate, that the Muslim population was a

25     majority there, or at least as you said.  That's correct, isn't it?  And

Page 30962

 1     that happened in October 1992.

 2        A.   I say yet again that at the time I was not president of the

 3     Executive Council.  This order arrived on the 14th of October.  As far as

 4     I know, Renovica was never fully under control of the VRS.  And that the

 5     Muslims constituted a majority.  In Renovica there was a military

 6     barracks, JNA barracks, which is something that the Main Staff must have

 7     kept in mind in order to preserve it and draw some resources from there.

 8     Renovica is not a village, it's a local commune.  90 per cent of the

 9     population in that local commune were Muslims.  Part of the Muslim

10     population in Prace or, to be more specific, in the Prace local commune

11     the percentage of Muslims was 80 per cent.  It was also partially

12     controlled by federal units or units of the Federation.  After a while a

13     separation line was created deep inside the territory of Pale

14     municipality.  And after some time, they automatically set up their own

15     municipality which is nowadays called Prace Pale with its seat in Prace.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.

17             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  It doesn't directly

19     contradict the witness since it wasn't at a time when he was in his

20     position and the time that he was speaking about.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, Mr. President, do I really need to respond to

22     that?  Just take a look at paragraph 14.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber finds it relevant.  We'll receive it.

25     Exhibit P6033.

Page 30963

 1             MR. TIEGER:  And -- thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Finally, Mr. Cvoro, I want to return to where we began our

 3     examination with -- and draw your attention to one additional document.

 4     And where we began was in connection with questions about those portions

 5     of your statement indicating that Muslims left only of their own free

 6     will.  Now, when I asked you about that yesterday, particularly in

 7     connection with the remarks you made at the June 18th, 1992,

 8     Municipal Assembly meeting concerning efforts by the police to move

 9     Muslims out, you said to the Court:

10             "I guarantee that there was no forced moving out of the Muslims

11     from Pale."

12             That's at transcript pages 30939.

13             MR. TIEGER:  So I'd like to look at 65 ter 01583.

14        Q.   This, Mr. Cvoro, is a document dated the 7th of July, 1992, sent

15     to the War-Time Board of Commissioners of Pale Municipality and

16     personally to Biljana Plavsic, relating -- and it's signed by you and it

17     relates to certain problems encountered by the Executive Committee.  And

18     in paragraph 2, which was written at the time, you relate just the

19     opposite of what you stated yesterday.  It says that there was forced and

20     wilful moving out of the Muslim population.

21             And that was the reality of Pale, Mr. Cvoro, wasn't it, that

22     Muslims were forced out?

23        A.   This is what I meant.  After a decision was made by the Assembly,

24     many Muslims had their own interpretation of the Assembly decision,

25     understanding that they had to move out of Pale municipality.  That's why

Page 30964

 1     many came to see me and the president for clarification, i.e., how and in

 2     what way this decision created on the 18th of June should be read.  Never

 3     does it say that the Muslims were obliged to leave Pale.  The Assembly

 4     made this decision, stating that every citizen has a constitutional right

 5     to choose where he or she wishes to live.  There were misinterpretations

 6     on the Serb side too, who also thought that the Muslims ought to go,

 7     resulting in individuals applying pressure, but that pressure was never

 8     exercised by the authorities or anyone else involved in politics.

 9        Q.   I didn't see anything in your statement referring to pressure

10     applied to the Muslims causing them to leave the municipality.  You

11     didn't -- now you're saying that there was pressure applied to the

12     Muslims, but that's not in your statement, is it?

13        A.   Individuals.  If such things were done, it was done by

14     individuals, not the authorities; and I was at the helm of those bodies.

15        Q.   So your position now, before this Court, is that when you wrote

16     Mrs. Plavsic and said there was forced and wilful moving out of the

17     Muslim population, that referred to actions that you didn't take but that

18     others did, is that it?

19        A.   I can't say others did.  I repeat:  If it was done, it was done

20     by individuals.  We were not pleased with what was going on in the

21     territory of Pale at the time.  That is why we sent this document to

22     President Plavsic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correction for the transcript.  The

24     witness said:  We were not happy with the co-operation and not with what

25     was going on, line 14.  Probably co-operation of the services rather than

Page 30965

 1     goings-on.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  You know what, I would appreciate if the accused

 3     would refrain from interpretations offered to the witness while the

 4     witness is on the stand.

 5        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, now you say to the Court --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, let's clarify this.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, please --

 9        A.   I claim --

10        Q.   The Judge asked us both to stop.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Cvoro, if you

12     remember that.  What were you not pleased with?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were not pleased with wilful

14     interpretations of Assembly decisions by Muslims and individual Serbs.

15     That is why we established contact with the Muslims, or rather, they came

16     to see us seeking an interpretation of the decision.  We interpreted the

17     decision as it was proclaimed.  My neighbours came to see me from

18     Bogovici and asked me what to do:  Was this decision for us to move out

19     or not?  I said:  It was not a decision that is forcing you to move out;

20     it is your right to decide where you wanted to live.

21             MR. TIEGER:

22        Q.   Meanwhile --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, so when the answer of the witness is

24     not clear, then it's more appropriate for you to take up that issue in

25     your re-examination instead of intervening during the cross-examination.

Page 30966

 1     I think that issue was a bit more than just translation issue.  Please

 2     bear that in mind.

 3             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, may I respond?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just bear that in mind, Mr. Karadzic, please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but it was stated:  We were

 8     not happy with co-operations.  We can go back to the audio recording.  I

 9     did not want to clarify anything but the transcript.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We too suggest that the

11     audio recordings be revisited.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This may affect any further

13     examination.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, then I would like the CLSS to look into the

15     matter.  Thank you.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   And when I asked you a moment ago about the fact that there was

18     forced moving out of the Muslim population and that it seemed that you

19     were saying that referred to actions taken by others and not you, you

20     said:  "I can't say others did."

21             But the fact, Mr. Cvoro, is that you refer to a large number of

22     illegal and criminal actions in your letter to Mrs. Plavsic.  That's what

23     you said at the time, that's what you knew at the time; isn't that right?

24        A.   There was general crime which appeared and it did not refer to

25     Muslims.

Page 30967

 1        Q.   It referred to actions taken against Muslims.  It referred to the

 2     forced and wilful moving out of the Muslim population, which - as you

 3     said in your letter - created a series of problems including a large

 4     number of illegal and criminal actions.  That's correct, isn't it?

 5        A.   Such things existed.  On the Serb side there was crime, but as

 6     for any significant criminal acts in terms of exercising pressure on the

 7     Muslims, well, I don't have any specific examples of that.

 8        Q.   And as you did yesterday at transcript pages 30935, 30948, you

 9     once again laid the problem at the door-step of the police, complaining

10     that you and the Executive Committee had no authority, no jurisdiction

11     over the police, which had a vertical chain of command.  Correct?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Cvoro.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I have no further questions -- except to tender this

15     document, Mr. President.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit P6034.

18             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, Excellency.  But

20     I'm going to start from the last answer that was provided to a question

21     that was highly complex, and I'm going to read it out to the witness so

22     that we determine what this pertains to exactly.  So I'm going to read

23     the question, Mr. Cvoro, in English so that it is interpreted more

24     correctly.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 30968

 1        Q.   [In English] "And as you did yesterday at transcript pages 30935,

 2     30948, you once again laid the problem at the door-step of the police,

 3     complaining that you and the Executive Committee had no authority, no

 4     jurisdiction over the police, which had a vertical chain of command."

 5             [Interpretation] Before that there was another question.

 6             [In English] "... action taken against Muslims.  It referred to

 7     the forced and wilful moving out of the Muslim population which - as you

 8     said in your letter - created a series of problems including a large

 9     number of illegal and criminal actions; isn't that right?"

10             [Interpretation] I was waiting for the interpretation to finish.

11     So, Mr. Cvoro, what you said in your last response, was that correct,

12     that the police had a vertical chain of command?  Does that also mean

13     that you confirmed the existence, or rather, that there were -- there

14     were forcible moves and voluntarily moves or movings out related to the

15     police?

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness start

18     his answer again.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Cvoro, you started answering the question while

20     the question itself was being translated.  Could you repeat your answer.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said that the police,

22     otherwise by its structure, has a vertical chain and the local

23     authorities have no authority over the police.  But I did not say that

24     the police exerted pressure along this vertical chain against Muslims in

25     the territory of Pale and that they were carrying out forcible

Page 30969

 1     expulsions.  I only meant the hierarchical organisation of the police.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please clarify a few things.  First of

 4     all, when was it that you first received a request for -- from someone to

 5     move out?

 6        A.   I think it was in April, the 9th of April, I think.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did the executive respond, and before that, was an

 8     Assembly meeting held or did the executive reply on their own?

 9        A.   The Executive Board, or rather, the Crisis Staff responded to

10     that request put forth by a group of Muslims, and after a while, when we

11     left -- or rather, when we went to places where there was a majority

12     population of Muslims, when we talked to them, when we could not persuade

13     them to stay on, then, then, we proceeded from the following, that this

14     request should be examined by the highest organ of local authority and

15     that is the Assembly.  And the Assembly decided as it did.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call up D31, Serb

18     page 4, English page 5.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This Assembly session where you asked the parliament to state its

21     views, was that held on the 18th of June?

22        A.   Yes.  The Assembly meeting took place on the 18th of June.  The

23     representatives of the Assembly were Assemblymen who were elected

24     multi-party elections.  These people had to be assembled because most of

25     them were at positions and in different places elsewhere.  They discussed

Page 30970

 1     the subject matter for a long time and their decision says that this is a

 2     constitutional right to move about freely and to reside at different

 3     places freely.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you leave the -- can you read the paragraph --

 5     no, not in the statement, no.  What you see on the screen, paragraph 2.

 6        A.   Paragraph 3?

 7        Q.   Paragraph 2.

 8        A.   "In order to keep the discussion focused, the Assembly propose

 9     that a working group formulate a draft decision on the moving out of

10     Muslims and Croats, stressing in it that the departure of these people

11     from the territory of the municipality would be done on a voluntary basis

12     and in an organised manner."

13        Q.   Thank you.  So what was it that you decided -- or actually, why

14     didn't the executive go on dealing with this?

15        A.   Because we handed this authority over to the Assembly because

16     that is the highest organ of authority of the municipality.  We no longer

17     had powers in that sense, we were powerless in the face of pressure

18     exerted by Muslims who wanted to leave Pale.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D28, could we please have that now.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   When did these pressures start?

23        A.   From the very beginning of the war.  I've already said, the

24     9th of April, when they presented their first requests and all the way up

25     until their departure.

Page 30971

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, this document that you signed, is

 2     that a response to that request?  When did you sign this?

 3        A.   It's a response to that request.  The Muslims had their safety

 4     guaranteed in the municipality, but also their vital food supplies were

 5     guaranteed.  Also all protection was afforded to them like to all other

 6     citizens, including health care and so on.  There was no reason for them

 7     to move out because -- because -- because they had full civic freedoms.

 8     Also in paragraph 3, since the SDS and the SDA were the largest political

 9     parties in Pale, they were given the possibility of reaching mutual

10     agreement on the problems that had cropped up.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ban the work of the SDA?

12        A.   No, never.  They had continuity because telephones were working.

13     They were linked to the telephone exchange and there were no problems

14     whatsoever.

15        Q.   Was the SDA also subsidized by the municipal budget?

16        A.   It was, but this budget that was adopted in an emergency

17     situation meant that they had not been planned for one month.

18        Q.   But in the meantime had they not established their own

19     municipality and didn't they have their own budget?

20        A.   Well, Mr. President, I don't know.  They established this

21     municipality Prace Pale.  I don't know the exact date, but probably they

22     did have a budget of their own.

23        Q.   Thank you.  To the best of your knowledge, what was the position

24     of the republican authorities in relation to the question of the

25     departure of non-Serbs from Serb territories?

Page 30972

 1        A.   I can claim with full responsibility that I never received any

 2     order from any republican organs, the Presidency and the Assembly.  What

 3     we did, we did with the scope of our own authority, the authority of the

 4     local authorities.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D446, could we have that now,

 7     please.  In Serbian page 5 and in English page 6.  Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Let me assist in order not to call up the first page.  This is a

10     session of the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska, the 11th of July,

11     1992 -- I beg your pardon, government meeting held on the 11th of July.

12     Could you please read paragraph 3 -- actually, could the Serbian version

13     be enlarged a little bit.

14        A.   "A work group has been formed made up of Milan Trbojevic,

15     government deputy prime minister, and the representatives of the Ministry

16     of Defence, the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Health, Work,

17     Welfare, and Family Affairs to prepare a regulation (platform) on the

18     treatment of Muslims and other nations on the territory of the Serb

19     Republic of BH.  In accordance with this, the constitutional rights and

20     obligations, international conventions on civil rights and freedoms that

21     obliges have to be taken into consideration.

22             "A larger debate would have to be held on the proposed document

23     exclusively at the session of the Assembly of the Serb People of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

25        Q.   Thank you.  How does this fit in to what you knew about the

Page 30973

 1     position of the state organs about this matter?

 2        A.   It is quite positive.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D27.  Third page in

 5     this document as it has been admitted.  The 24th to the 26th of July,

 6     1992.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So in terms of the date is what, two months?  What?

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Before we proceed.

12             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, can some kind of foundation be laid for the

14     presentation of such documents to the witness.  I complained yesterday

15     and I believe that complaint was understood by the Court that this manner

16     of examination is quite leading, particularly in the absence of any

17     foundation that the witness attended a particular session, knew about the

18     issue, was in a position to shed any light on that at all, rather than

19     being led to a particular position by virtue of the presentation of a

20     document outlining it to him.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber absolutely agrees with Mr. Tieger's

23     observation.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll do my best to

25     correct that.

Page 30974

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, do you remember that the Assembly --

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Objection, objection, that's obviously beginning in

 4     a leading fashion.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Sorry about that.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you know whether in July a session of the National Assembly

 9     was held in Pale and did you see this in the media?  Did you follow this?

10        A.   To tell you quite frankly, I don't know and I didn't really

11     follow this.

12        Q.   And did you have any knowledge as to what my position was in

13     relation to the Muslims?

14        A.   I said that I and the municipal authorities were never subjected

15     to any kind of pressure from you in respect of the Muslims.  I never

16     received any order or any invitation to come and see you and to discuss

17     the matter.

18        Q.   I am going to read my words out to you.  It's at the very top in

19     Serbian --

20             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any point.  If it is already in

21     evidence, why do we have to put it to the witness?  We have the witness's

22     answer.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, there is a

25     reference to Pale here, which is his municipality.  I don't have to read

Page 30975

 1     it.  I can ask you to read it yourself and --

 2             MR. TIEGER:  No, no --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, look at the answer he gave about your

 4     position in relation to the Muslims, and he said he never -- he was never

 5     subjected to any kind of pressure from you in respect of the Muslims.

 6     And you can ask an open question to the witness with respect to others,

 7     but reading out this passage from this seems to have no point to me.  Why

 8     don't you put an open question to the witness first and see what we can

 9     get from him further.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you know percentage-wise how many Muslims there were in the

13     municipality of Pale?

14        A.   Around 70 per cent of the population was Serb and about

15     30 per cent was non-Serb.  Now that includes Croats and Muslims and so

16     on.

17        Q.   Is what I say in this speech correct, that in July there were

18     20 per cent of them and that --

19             MR. TIEGER:  Wait, wait, wait.  This --

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   -- no one touched them and that they communicated --

22             JUDGE KWON:  No.  No, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. TIEGER:  And I think at this point it's very clear that this

24     is not a matter of inexperience or inadvertence; this is a blatant

25     attempt to override the Chamber's ruling.

Page 30976

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on to another topic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I give up.  I give up.  Even if it

 4     is blatant or impudent, that was not the intention.  I'm simply not used

 5     to this yet.

 6             Can we please have D34 now.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You mentioned the review of the commission, or rather, you

 9     mentioned that you were not happy with the work produced by one

10     commission and then you established another one.  Can you please take a

11     look at this document that you signed on the 14th of July, 1992, and can

12     you tell us what this is all about.

13        A.   Well, you see, the commissions that worked on the ground in

14     various locations had not adequately recorded the property of the

15     non-Serb population.  So we learned that there was abuse and that there

16     had been some misappropriations of property.  We did not even adopt all

17     the reports of these commissions, so we decided to establish a review

18     commission whose task was to tour all the areas where Muslims lived and

19     to establish what the actual truthful situation was.

20        Q.   Thank you.  The first sentence of this task and the first one

21     further down, can you read it out?

22        A.   "The commission's task is to:

23             "Examine the manner in which the property of citizens who are

24     non-Serbs is being used for each household separately, using the reports

25     compiled by the commissions who were previously in the field."

Page 30977

 1             That is the first one.  Do you want the second one too?

 2        Q.   Just the first line of the second one.

 3        A.   "Seal off all houses and outbuildings that have been abandoned

 4     and have not been transferred by legal contract to" -- I cannot see this

 5     very well.

 6        Q.   "Contracts"?

 7        A.   No, not "contracts."  Yes.  "... legal contracts to citizens of

 8     Serb ethnicity and nobody has been assigned to protect them from damage."

 9        Q.   Was this done?

10        A.   All of it was done.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have P6031 next.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   It was suggested to you yesterday that the private property left

14     behind by Muslims was considered war booty.  I'd like us now to have a

15     look at what the government had to say in terms of war booty and perhaps

16     you can tell us how much of that property ended up in the budget of the

17     state and municipality.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on para 4, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Commission is required to

20     draw ..."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up, please.  The left

22     column.  Go down now, please.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Commission is required to draw

24     up a record for any transfer of movable property and assets.  The record

25     shall contain particulars of the person delivering the goods, the means

Page 30978

 1     whereby the said person gained possession of the goods, the quantity and

 2     type of goods and/or cash, foreign currency, and valuables, the

 3     condition, origin and ownership of the goods, the name and origin of the

 4     manufacturer, and any observations regarding the keeping, storage,

 5     maintenance, and shelf life of the goods."

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go even further down on the

 9     page to see where we have a definition of "war booty."  Actually, go up.

10     Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you read out Article 1?

13        A.   "All legal entities and natural persons who have acquired, in the

14     course of war operations or by other means, movable property and assets

15     (commodities, technical equipment, vehicles, and equipment) are required

16     to deliver the same immediately or within 24 hours at the latest to the

17     Republic's emergency reserves at the nearest location.

18             "Cash, foreign currency, gold, other precious metals and

19     valuables shall be deposited in the treasury of the National Bank of the

20     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

21        Q.   Thank you.  Does this refer to private property such as

22     apartments and other things which were not acquired in combat, including

23     movable property?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could the Muslims take with them whatever they wanted

Page 30979

 1     when they moved to Sarajevo?

 2        A.   The Muslims from Pale on their request wanted to leave and they

 3     did.  I cannot accept the assertion that they were driven out.  They left

 4     with all of their personal belongings as well as motor vehicles.  Those

 5     who did not have vehicles were put on buses with all of their personal

 6     belongings and went to Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And how did Serbs leave Sarajevo?

 8        A.   I can only say the following.  As for the Serbs who were the

 9     first ones to be driven out of Sarajevo, they were from Pofalici.  They

10     had to leave while the military operations were still ongoing.  They came

11     without any of their possessions to Pale and Han Pijesak.  In Pofalici,

12     there were mostly Serbs from the territory of the Romanija plateau.  Many

13     of their houses were torched and many were killed --

14             MR. TIEGER:  Objection.  Beyond the scope of cross and, apart

15     from that, tu quoque.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay.  Can we have D111.  Zoom in,

18     please, and we do have a translation.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   These are instructions I signed on the 23rd of August --

21             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me.  Excuse me, I don't know if I have to

22     offer the same objection and the same admonition has to be given to

23     Mr. Karadzic every time, but we're back in the same position of the

24     accused presenting documents to the witness before laying any form of

25     foundation.  Same objection.  It should be taken off the screen and he

Page 30980

 1     should be asked to ask questions about what this witness knows and not

 2     direct him to information that he wants the witness to affirm.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, could you have a word with

 4     Mr. Karadzic as to the manner in which he conducts re-examination.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, you were asked and you stated in the statement that

 9     you held back from certifying many kinds of contracts drawn up in

10     war-time conditions.  Did you see this instruction on abandoned

11     apartments which I issued and sent to the municipalities?

12             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, I'm sorry.  Could I have a reference to

13     that in the statement because my recollection is almost the opposite of

14     what is stated in the statement, that the witness emphasized that he

15     verified such agreements.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Cvoro said so during

17     cross-examination.  He said that they did not accept gladly to have

18     contracts on the exchange of property certified in courts between Muslims

19     and Serbs because there was a war.  It was in cross-examination and I

20     believe it is somewhere in the statement as well.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I mean, the cross-examination wasn't that long.  I'd

22     appreciate the page reference.  I imagine there's one.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll find it.  Could we --

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So did you receive or were you familiar with our position

Page 30981

 1     regarding the treatment of abandoned property?

 2        A.   I think in my statement -- not in my statement, during a

 3     conversation I said that there were cases where individual Muslims and

 4     Serbs wanted to have their mutual contracts certified regarding exchanges

 5     of houses and apartments, but that we declined due to the situation,

 6     which was a war and the state of war.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever receive any instructions in August?  Did

 8     the municipality receive it?  You were still there?

 9        A.   I was there until the end of August, but I don't recall this.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we kindly show it to the

11     witness.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hardly legible.  I can't make

13     things out.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yesterday at page 90, lines 20

15     through 23 of the transcript, the witness was still being cross-examined

16     on the matter of contracts.  The first five lines on page 91 and the

17     bottom of page 90.

18             [In English] I don't have the e-court on my ...

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now can we look at D15.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You mentioned that Renovica is not a village.  Can you tell us

23     how many settlements comprise Renovica and who lives there?  Is the

24     population mixed or do the hamlets have their respective ethnic

25     compositions?

Page 30982

 1        A.   I said that Renovica was a local commune and that there were some

 2     Serbs living there who, when the policemen in Renovica were injured, left

 3     the territory of Renovica.  I don't know how many hamlets there are, but

 4     quite a lot and they all comprised the local commune.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Who were the Serbs injured or killed by?

 6        A.   You mean the policemen or the people who fled?

 7        Q.   Both.

 8        A.   The policemen were attacked by Muslims.  The Muslims attacked and

 9     killed two policemen and wounded five.  That was right at the start.

10     After that, the Serbs were fearful and they withdrew from there leaving

11     their property behind in the territory of the local commune.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So do you recall this piece of news?  Is this what

13     you mentioned, the ambush on a police patrol?

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that was the operation.

16     Goran Kablar was killed then and Rade Tosic.  Many others were wounded.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  When you changed positions, did you stay in Pale?

19        A.   I still resided there in the weekend home of Hajrudin Somun who

20     was a member of Alija Izetbegovic's Presidency.  After the Dayton Accords

21     he called me and told me, "Mr. Cvoro, I heard you live in my weekend

22     home" -- sorry, this is very important.  It is very important.  He came

23     and had a look at his weekend home and started to cry, saying, "Is it

24     possible that you kept it all intact?"  He wanted to go even further and

25     turn to the media, thanking me personally.  At first he was informed that

Page 30983

 1     his weekend home was among the first houses to be torched.  Later he

 2     said, "Mr. Cvoro, you are a better person than I am because you preserved

 3     something that I may not have if I were in your place."  He said that in

 4     the weekend home he even found a last paper issue he had read back then.

 5     And since I don't want to be singled out, I wanted to say that many Serbs

 6     kept Muslim property safe in the very same way in the territory of Pale

 7     municipality.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Serb authorities take any part in the

 9     destruction of mosques or did they incite and encourage such destruction?

10        A.   I'm unaware of that information.

11        Q.   Another question.  You mentioned that the influx of refugees and

12     the events in the theatre of war had a great impact on the atmosphere in

13     Pale.  In early June, before Muslims began requesting to be allowed to

14     leave, did anything drastic happen resulting in concerns among their

15     population?  Did something take place in terms of combat?

16        A.   The soldiers of the VRS from Pale municipality were obliged to

17     supply food and other necessities to the soldiers who were detained in

18     Zlovrh near Han Pijesak.  They set off but never reached their

19     destination --

20             MR. TIEGER:  Objection, objection.  This is a rehashing of

21     material that's in the statement that, in any event, didn't arise from

22     cross.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Partially yes, partially no --

24             MR. TIEGER:  Well, it's --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Did you not touch upon that issue, showing the

Page 30984

 1     Muslims' arrival or something like that?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Well, Mr. President, I obviously in cross touched on

 3     issues raised by the statement, but now the witness is returning to

 4     repeating precisely what's in the statement.  I can look at it, I believe

 5     it's paragraph 3 or 2, but I'll find you precisely where that's

 6     referenced.  So if that's how the accused wants to use his time, I guess

 7     that's okay with the Prosecution; but I felt an obligation to bring that

 8     to the attention of the Court.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger is correct, Mr. Karadzic.  Just -- you

12     don't -- you should not just rehabilitate your examination-in-chief

13     during your re-examination.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted --

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  Dr. Karadzic, can you tell us what aspect of the

16     cross are you seeking to have clarified by this question in re?  Can you

17     tell us, please?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecution allegations that

19     the Muslims did not leave voluntarily but that they were forced by

20     someone.  I want to tackle what is not mentioned in the statement, which

21     is the occurrence that all events in the environment and the goings-on in

22     the theatre of war --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- including atrocities had an

25     impact on --

Page 30985

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If we have to continue, I think we have to excuse

 2     Mr. Cvoro for the moment, but I take it you're done already.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             THE ACCUSED:  Just one question.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Cvoro, could you take off your headphones for

 6     the moment.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Were you through, Dr. Karadzic?  Were you through

 8     with your answer to me?

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Only one -- yeah, yeah.  There was one drastic

10     incident that hadn't been mentioned in statement and that was very

11     decisive about the further development.  So I just wanted one question to

12     ask him what happened on 10th of June and I'm finished.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Tieger, do you wish to comment on this at all?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, the -- paragraph 4 relates a series

16     of events that the witness indicated took place and that, according to

17     him, caused fear of retaliation and security, et cetera, and that were

18     the prompting factors, according to him, for the Muslims to leave.

19     During the course of my examination, I directed the witness's attention

20     and the Court's attention to factors beyond those.  It seems to me --

21     that is, to factors regarding pressure on Muslims directly in Pale and

22     forcible actions to get them to leave.  It seems to me that the issue of

23     whether or not there were actions in other theatres of war or whether VRS

24     soldiers were killed, et cetera, et cetera, was not directly challenged

25     and this is simply adding to that if -- the witness had a chance in his

Page 30986

 1     statement to provide his information on that, he did.  And, by the way, I

 2     should mention that the specific incident that seems to have been

 3     referred to in the -- when Dr. Karadzic began the lead-up to the question

 4     that prompted this objection seems specifically to be in the statement.

 5             So it's -- again, I -- you know, I think it's a matter of

 6     efficiency more than anything else.  I don't see that this is anything

 7     other than an effort to augment paragraph 4 with some additional incident

 8     that the accused thinks is significant but that the witness didn't think

 9     was significant enough to put in his statement.  I don't believe that's

10     an efficient use of time.

11             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber does not think that

14     question you were going to put arises from the cross-examination, so I

15     would like you to move on to another topic.

16             Yes, Mr. Cvoro, you can take -- you can wear your headphones

17     again.  Thank you.

18             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, do you remember this huge funeral and do you remember

22     that after that --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. --

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   -- I put a ban on such mass funerals?

Page 30987

 1             MR. TIEGER:  That -- that --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  It's leading and it's in contravention of the

 4     Court's decision about 10 seconds before.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I relinquished the questions

 6     related to the 10th of June.  I only wanted to ask how the people were

 7     buried and if he knew that, in the aftermath, I put a ban on such

 8     burials.  But if this is not admissible, then I'm all right with that.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's move on.  And if you start your question

10     with "do you remember," that's usually leading.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Cvoro, in what way did you bury those 45 soldiers at Pale?

13        A.   I was personally involved in the burial of the 46 soldiers at

14     Pale.  Half of them were buried on one day and the other half on the

15     following day.  On the second day of the funeral, but also on the first

16     day as well because many fighters from Pale lost their lives, even some

17     of the Muslims - and I saw them personally - were standing by and

18     expressing sympathy with what had happened to their neighbours and

19     friends.

20             The second day of the funeral, the presence of a large number of

21     inhabitants and combatants at Pale was abused in the sense that the

22     Muslim forces, considerable Muslim forces, attacked a defence line at

23     Trebevic.  This was hand-to-hand fighting.  Many who were in front of the

24     church ran to their houses, picked up their weapons, and unfortunately

25     many of them never returned.  An additional 12 VRS fighters were killed

Page 30988

 1     as a result.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Cvoro, for your testimony.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Unless my colleagues have questions for

 5     you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Cvoro.  On behalf of the Chamber I

 6     would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague.  Now you are free

 7     to go.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take an early break or continue with the

10     next witness?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Well --

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Unless there's an objection, we'll have a break now

14     for half an hour and resume at ten to 11.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

19     please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  MILAN PEJIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Doctor.  Please make yourself

25     comfortable.

Page 30989

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I take it, Mr. Tieger, that you have an attorney who

 3     appears for the first time?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  And for observing.

 5     Yes, Bronagh McKenna is with the Karadzic team and will be leading a

 6     witness shortly and will be introducing herself to the Court personally.

 7     Thank you for noticing, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pejic.

11        A.   Good morning.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D6812 in

13     e-court.

14             We have the version in the English language, but never mind.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Let me ask you this.  Dr. Pejic, have you given a statement to

17     the Defence team and is that the statement that you see on the screen?

18        A.   Yes, I have given a statement, and on this occasion I would just

19     like to make one correction, if possible, for the statement to be

20     completely accurate, and I'm referring you to page 8.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have the version in

22     Serbian, page 8.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  There's no Serbian version -- B/C/S version

24     uploaded in e-court.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have the paragraph number, Doctor?

Page 30990

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph 31.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this paragraph it says that I

 4     met Dr. Karadzic in 1994.  It should be corrected to read that it was in

 5     early 1995.  This correction was made on the basis of a newspaper article

 6     in which I saw that this happened on the 12th of January, 1995.  I don't

 7     know if that is relevant, but I think that a correction is needed.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  As for the rest of your statement, does it

10     accurately reflect everything you said?

11        A.   Yes, it reflects everything and is written down exactly as I

12     said.

13        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation and I'm also asking you to do

14     the same because both of us speak the same language.

15             Have you signed the statement?

16        A.   Yes, I signed it on the 2nd of December, 2012.

17        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you today the same questions that

18     the Defence team put to you, would your answers basically be the same?

19        A.   Yes, they would, only perhaps I would have elaborated my answers

20     a little bit if I have an opportunity to speak live and in order to

21     clarify some of the paragraphs, but the essence would remain the same.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I'm going to read the

24     summary -- sorry, Your Excellency.  May I offer this package for

25     admission?  Only maybe I will put some of the documents to the witness

Page 30991

 1     live.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And I noted that you have uploaded the redacted

 3     version and I take it you are tendering one document?

 4             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.  We're tendering

 6     1D10016 and we would ask for permission to add it to the Rule 65 ter list

 7     because we didn't have the witness's statement at the time we made that

 8     list, so we hadn't included it.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Ms. Sutherland?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Given the Trial Chamber's ruling that this

11     paragraph is of some relevance to the indictment, we have no objection,

12     Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the numbers to the statement and the

14     exhibit?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D06802 [sic] receives number D2538,

16     Your Honours.  And document 1D10016 receives number D2539, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I'm going to read

20     the summary of Dr. Pejic's statement in English.

21             [In English] Milan Pejic served in the JNA from February until

22     December 1994 [sic] at the Officers' Medical School in Belgrade.

23     Following this, Dr. Pejic worked at the Hadzici health --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             Yes, Doctor.

Page 30992

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, not 1974 but 1975.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry, we'll correct this.

 3             [In English] Following this, Dr. Pejic worked at the Hadzici

 4     Health Centre before moving to the ORL clinic at Kosevo Hospital - that

 5     means ear, nose, and throat - Kosevo Hospital in March 1979.  Dr. Pejic

 6     became chief of the clinic in 1991.

 7             On March the 8th, 1992, Juka Prazina - a very famous

 8     criminal - was admitted to Kosevo Hospital and armed personnel belonging

 9     to the Green Berets controlled entry and exits to the clinic and checked

10     ID papers.  At that time everyone in Sarajevo felt insecure and many

11     check-points were set up manned by unknown armed formations.

12             Around March 1992, Republican Minister of Health, Dr. Ismet Lipa,

13     issued a document ordering healthcare workers to report to the nearest

14     healthcare institution and place themselves at its disposal in the event

15     that the situation deteriorated still further and going to work as normal

16     was not possible.  In April 1992, a Crisis Staff was formed at the

17     Kosevo Medical Centre.  In the middle of April 1992, Dr. Milan Pejic

18     attended a morning meeting and was asked to sign a pre-prepared text, in

19     which was written that Dr. Radovan Karadzic was proclaimed a war

20     criminal --

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Dr. Pejic, perhaps after I have finished we can --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Dr. Pejic has some intervention.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In mid-April you did not say that

25     that was a meeting of experts, not the meeting of Crisis Staff.  And I

Page 30993

 1     would like that to be put accurately.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.  So I'll repeat.  In April 1992, a

 3     Crisis Staff was formed at the Kosevo Medical Centre.  In middle of April

 4     of 1992, Dr. Milan Pejic attended a morning meeting at his own clinic and

 5     was asked to sign a pre-prepared text, in which was written that

 6     Dr. Radovan Karadzic was proclaimed a war criminal and that he should be

 7     stripped of the title of doctor and prohibited from working because of

 8     alleged sniping at the citizens of Sarajevo.

 9             As the local outpatient unit in Blazuj was unsuitable for the

10     admission of patients requiring beds, Dr. Milan Pejic assisted in the

11     creation of a temporary hospital in a holiday centre of the Zica armature

12     factory.  Everything done at this hospital was an example of people

13     organising themselves due to a feeling of being under threat and of

14     looming danger and was done without prompting and certainly not by any

15     external directive.

16             On April the 22nd, 1992, following a fierce assault of Muslim

17     forces on Ilidza from a health care facility, 12 or 13 citizens of the

18     Serbian ethnicity were killed and 37 people wounded.  They were admitted

19     to the hospital, one being a recordist from the BBC in London.

20             On May the 8th, 1992, Dr. Pejic was informed in a meeting that

21     while employees of the clinical centre Kosevo were being transported to

22     work by bus, they had been stopped by the Kosevo stadium by members of a

23     group of armed people who wanted members of the Serbian ethnicity to be

24     taken off the bus.  This was prevented by Dr. Lutvo Hodzic.

25             After this, Dr. Milan Pejic was not able to get to work owing to

Page 30994

 1     the escalation of the conflict and therefore he devoted all his capacity

 2     for work at the Zica hospital.  The hospital received very small amounts

 3     of medicines and medical material.  Every day he saw columns of various

 4     vehicles transporting aid for Sarajevo, and at the beginning they

 5     diverted a certain percentage of the resources but many were of no use to

 6     their hospital because of incompleteness and other reasons.  The main

 7     source of supply for medicines and medical material was humanitarian

 8     assistance.

 9             At the beginning of December 1992 an agreement was reached which

10     gave the hospital one-third of the oxygen bottles.  They received five or

11     six bottles, two of which were unusually heavy.  A subsequent check

12     established that one of the bottles contained gunpowder and there was

13     some kind of detonator, fuses, in the other.  The detonators were

14     packaged in paper with "Kovina Visoko" written on it.  UNPROFOR were

15     informed and they denied being involved.

16             A large number of wounded members of the VRS passed through the

17     hospital as well as members of the HVO and Muslims.  Further, a large

18     number of civilians received treatment at the hospital during the war,

19     both Serbs and other civilians who were the victims of snipers or

20     shelling from the Muslim positions.

21             Some of the witnesses, as it is said in statement, have been

22     treated by the Dr. Pejic staff.  And that's all for now.  I don't have

23     questions.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Did I not order you to lead live about para 17?

25             THE ACCUSED:  I think we redacted everything, Excellency.

Page 30995

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I think I said to you that it's a bit difficult to

 2     follow what 17 meant, so I want you to lead the witness in that regard.

 3             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Dr. Pejic, if you have your statement in front of you --

 6     actually, do you have it in Serbian?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Could I kindly ask you to look at paragraph 17 and could you tell

 9     us what this means in essence, the maternity home in Betanija?

10        A.   Thank you.  At the then-clinical centre we had meetings of the

11     Crisis Staff every morning.  This Crisis Staff consisted of the directors

12     of the clinics and the director of the clinical centre as a whole.  At

13     the time when this happened, what is referred to in paragraph 17, the

14     Crisis Staff was chaired by Mr. Ismet Lipa, the then-minister of health.

15             Now what was it that I wanted to say by this statement?  I wanted

16     to say that what happened later in relation to the new maternity ward, we

17     called it Betanija and that was Dolina.  It has to do with a TV programme

18     that had to do with the presence of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and a dramatic

19     programme stating that doctors cannot deliver babies at the new maternity

20     ward.  That was not true because the mentioned professor, Srecko Simic,

21     who was head of the clinic for gynaecology and obstetrics, at this

22     meeting on the 7th of May said that they had carried out all their work,

23     or rather, transferred all of these activities to the old building in

24     terms of gynaecology and obstetrics and that they're handing over the new

25     building to the Crisis Staff.  This programme was at some point in May,

Page 30996

 1     after the 20th of May, I think, it had to do with the conflict and the

 2     shelling of this new maternity building.  I don't think that this

 3     programme was truthful and I think that it was actually aimed at

 4     different purposes.  I am trying to say that some of the things that

 5     people on the other side did were not appropriate and did not correspond

 6     to the situation that then prevailed in Sarajevo.

 7             I don't know whether I've answered with sufficient clarity.  I

 8     don't know if I should repeat this.

 9             Quite simply, I couldn't keep silent about this because I

10     personally attended the meeting of the Crisis Staff on the 7th of May and

11     with my very own ears I heard what Professor Srecko Simic asked for and I

12     personally heard who was appointed to the team to carry out the hand-over

13     of the building, the instruments, and the staff of this maternity clinic,

14     which is actually part of the clinic for gynaecology and obstetrics.

15        Q.   Thank you.  So what is your objection with regard to this TV

16     programme?

17        A.   Well, look, as far as I can remember from this point of view now,

18     the old gynaecology building was shown in that programme - the gentlemen

19     don't know about it but you do.  The old building had been renovated and

20     is used again and all activities were carried out there.  Obstetrics was

21     there before and after that meeting.  Now what the reason was I really

22     don't know because I'm not a soldier, but then there was shooting,

23     shelling.  Now, was it from one side or both sides?  And, inter alia,

24     what was mentioned was the new maternity building, and in this TV

25     programme the mentioned president of the then-Presidency of

Page 30997

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Izetbegovic, appeared.  There was a foreign

 2     official, there were doctors, and as far as I can remember, that was one

 3     of the reasons why some kind of sanctions were imposed.  Now I don't

 4     know, was it sanctions that were imposed on Serbia?  Whatever.  I'm

 5     perhaps mistaken, but anyway that's the way it was.  At any rate, this

 6     untruthful picture was portrayed as far as the new maternity building was

 7     concerned.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, is this paragraph

 9     somewhat clearer now?

10             JUDGE KWON:  So, Doctor, is it your testimony that the new

11     maternity home was never shelled by the Serbs?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm or deny that

13     because I was not present there at the time.  By then I was no longer

14     going to Kosevo.  This is after I had stopped coming, but on television I

15     saw this programme which dramatically portrayed the situation at the old

16     maternity ward and that that was a consequence of the shelling of the new

17     maternity home.  Now, whether that really happened or not, I cannot

18     confirm.  But what I can confirm with certainty is that the late

19     Professor Dr. Srecko Simic said that the new maternity building is not

20     being used and that all the procedures regarding gynaecology and

21     obstetrics are being carried out in the old building.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  At this point in time I

Page 30998

 1     wouldn't have any further questions for Dr. Pejic.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Pejic, as you have noted, most of your evidence

 4     in chief has been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.

 5     Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the

 6     Prosecutor.

 7             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.  Do go ahead.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

11        Q.   Dr. Pejic, you said that the treated all patients, regardless of

12     their nationality.  And you said -- and you used Ramiz Mujkic as an

13     example.  How did Ramiz Mujkic come to be treated in the hospital?  He

14     didn't just walk into the hospital off the street, did he?

15        A.   Heaven forbid.  He was driven in some vehicle.  He was brought

16     in.  He was wounded in the leg, either the left or the right one, I'm not

17     sure.  I don't know.  His hygiene had been rather poor --

18        Q.   He was --

19        A.   -- neglected, not to say that he smelled --

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

21        A.   -- the wound was -- yes?

22        Q.   Dr. Pejic, you've answered the question.  He was brought into the

23     hospital by a number of persons, including a military policeman.  He was

24     also taken from the hospital by a soldier and two military policemen,

25     wasn't he?

Page 30999

 1        A.   Madam, as for Mr. Ramiz, we gave him all medical assistance

 2     possible --

 3        Q.   Doctor -- Doctor --

 4        A.   -- I saw him the other day --

 5        Q.   Doctor, can you pause there.  My question was he left the

 6     hospital.  He was also taken from the hospital by a soldier and two

 7     military policemen.  That was my question.

 8        A.   Well, I really cannot recall.  It would be too much for me to ask

 9     me to remember what happened 20 years ago, but it was probably the way

10     you had put it.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have Exhibit P2325, please.

12        Q.   Doctor, we see here hospital records from the Zica hospital in

13     relation to the patient Ramiz Mujkic.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we go to the second page -- is that --

15     and the next page in the B/C/S.

16        Q.   Is that a hospital record with your signature at the bottom of

17     the page or two-thirds of the way down the page?  Does it say there

18     Dr. Pejic --

19        A.   We see a bit further down -- no, this is not my signature.  MY

20     name is typed out, though.  At the time, we did not have such forms -- or

21     did we?  On the left side it was signed by Dr. Djulic.  He was a dentist

22     and he did some medical work, too, in terms of general medicine.  I as

23     head of the hospital was supposed to sign this where it says "head of

24     hospital."  Unfortunately I probably wasn't there when Ramiz was taken

25     away.

Page 31000

 1        Q.   So you don't recall him being taken to the Zravka [phoen]

 2     military prison?

 3        A.   Well, no, no, well, look --

 4        Q.   I've finished with that document now.

 5        A.   Very well.

 6        Q.   Dr. Pejic, I want to move on now.  You said in your statement

 7     that Dr. Karadzic was basically a good person and a man who was good to

 8     his neighbours.  I'd like to show you a short clip and then I will put a

 9     question to you.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I can play Exhibit P02515, please.  And

11     the clip is from 1:55:45 to 1:58:28, please.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may while we're waiting.  May

13     I indicate the mistranslation on that medical documentation.  In Serbian

14     it says "zarobljeni" and in English it says "prisoner" and the difference

15     is considerable in our language.  It should state "prisoner of war."

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             JUDGE KWON:  We take it as a standing observation.  So I don't

18     think you have to repeat it every time.  Thank you.

19             Let's continue.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, please.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Registrar, if we could have the English

23     translation of this exhibit on the screen, please, for the benefit of the

24     interpreters.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We cannot follow the video-clip?  What -- how can we

Page 31001

 1     follow the video-clip if --

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, apparently -- yes, Your Honour.  Just one

 3     moment.

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Reid's printing sufficient copies to give it

 6     to the interpreters' booths.  If the usher could assist, please.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I note that the transcript hasn't been uploaded in

 8     e-court either.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's under 65 ter number 45177, Your Honour, A,

11     45177A.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, while we are waiting for

13     translations to be given to interpreters, I would just like to clarify

14     one thing on the record.  The version of the witness statement that was

15     admitted is number 1D6812 and not 1D6802, as was mistakenly put on the

16     record previously.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting, Ms. Sutherland, I don't find

18     any transcript in that number either, 45177.

19                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  45177A, Your Honour.

21             [Microphone not activated]

22             If everyone is ready, can we play the video, please.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With sound.

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

Page 31002

 1             "RK:  We are determined ... our Assembly adopted, to get

 2     separated and we have separated and formed our state.  But some changes

 3     have to happen in Sarajevo itself in a way that Serb areas go to Serbs in

 4     its entirety by means of political negotiations and talks; in the way

 5     that Serbian city will be formed and separated as a whole; in the way the

 6     former Sarajevo is transformed into two cities.  It is our firm political

 7     will and decision, and if our neighbours and the international community

 8     as well wish to peacefully solve this problem, then they have to realise

 9     that genuine Serbian areas in the territory of Sarajevo have to go to

10     Serbs and a city will be formed there, a city which should have -- which

11     should be a shelter and home for about 200.000 Serbs and continually

12     develop on an urban principle and on centre-towards-periphery principle."

13             Interpreter's note:  Could all other microphones be switched off.

14     Thank you.

15             [Voiceover] "We have a completely clear vision about it.  And we

16     will try to make it true.  We have entirely accepted and welcomed your

17     regulation in the declaration so that the rest of Sarajevo can stay in

18     Republika Srpska if it wants to, as there are economic and historical,

19     national and all other conditions and reasons; and if not, then we will

20     make some arrangements to enable those who do not want to live with us to

21     connect to their territory in some way.  If our neighbours do not show

22     enough understanding, we will decide for ourselves how big Srpsko

23     Sarajevo, Serb Sarajevo, will be and what will be in Srpsko Sarajevo.

24     And then Sarajevo is a city and the city in Republika Srpska because all

25     the land Sarajevo is situated on is Serbian and all the surroundings are

Page 31003

 1     Serbian, and if they do not want to come to a quick solution, the whole

 2     of Sarajevo will be Serbian in the end."

 3             Interpreter's note:  The quality of soundtrack is very poor.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             Doctor, were you able to follow what Mr. Karadzic has said in

 7     this video-clip?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is the microphone on now?  Well, I

 9     could follow but I don't know when it was that Dr. Karadzic was speaking,

10     what the date was, what the year.  In paragraph 30 of my statement I said

11     that my knowledge about Dr. Karadzic is indirect, not direct; and what I

12     heard from colleagues is what I wrote in this statement.  I am not

13     talking about the period before the war and after the war.  I mean, I

14     hope this is clear from my statement, what this refers to --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you pre-empted Ms. Sutherland's question.

16     I just asked whether you heard it.

17             Ms. Sutherland, please continue.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  I have to intervene as far

19     as the translation is concerned.  In line 15 on page 45, it was said

20     "only," "exclusively" through negotiations.  And here it says in the

21     translation "in its entirety," but I said "ekskluzivno" which is "only,"

22     "exclusively" through negotiations.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We have a transcript and in that regard I would like

24     to -- I would like the CLSS to take a look into it.  And having said

25     that, let's continue.

Page 31004

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated].

 2        Q.   Mr. Karadzic was saying this at the time that he visited Ilidza

 3     at the same time that he came to the Zica hospital.  But this doesn't

 4     sound like Dr. Karadzic cares much for his Muslim and Croat neighbours,

 5     does it?

 6        A.   I wouldn't agree with that.

 7        Q.   Well, I think you just said to the Presiding Judge that the

 8     remarks that you made about Mr. Karadzic being a good person and a man

 9     who was good to his neighbours, you actually restricted that to the time

10     that you were talking about before the war and after the war, didn't you,

11     just a moment ago?

12        A.   No, no, no, no --

13        Q.   Sorry --

14        A.   -- I gave this statement of mine -- may I say --

15        Q.   Sorry, Dr. Pejic, can I --

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I think that she has to

17     allow the witness to give an answer.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's hear him out.

19             Yes, Dr. Pejic, please continue.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I feel very unpleasant, very

21     embarrassed, when the lady interrupts me in mid-sentence because then my

22     response loses any kind of context.

23             I gave this statement about the period while Dr. Karadzic worked

24     at the Kosevo hospital.  That was my understanding of it.  It is quite

25     understandable, Your Honours and Madam, that the other side certainly

Page 31005

 1     portrayed a different kind of picture regarding Dr. Karadzic.  As for my

 2     image of Dr. Karadzic, I obtained it before the war indirectly.  I first

 3     met him in January 1995.  Is it clear now?  I hope that I've clarified

 4     the matter now.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Yes, you have.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I would just like to thank

11     Dr. Pejic for his testimony.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for your readiness

13     to hear me out.  And I'm sorry that I had been interrupted halfway as I

14     wanted to explain some things that happened on the ground and that were

15     important for the area.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Well, when the witness answers beyond the scope of

17     the question, sometimes we advise the witness to concentrate on answering

18     the question, but we understand your frustration.  But in any event, that

19     concludes your evidence, Dr. Pejic, and on behalf of this Chamber and the

20     Tribunal as a whole I would like to thank you for your coming to

21     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.  Please have a safe

22     journey back home.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we just need a moment to change

Page 31006

 1     places, Ms. McKenna and I.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And next witness is Mr. Lubura?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, Goran Sikiras.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Sikiras, yes, thank you.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  Mr. President, if I may, just while we're waiting

 7     for the witness to come in, I'd just like to introduce myself to

 8     Your Honours.  My name is Bronagh McKenna and I'm pleased to appear

 9     before you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Welcome, Ms. McKenna.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised that due to logistical problem we need

13     to adjourn for 15 minutes.  We'll resume at five to 12.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 11.38 a.m.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16                           --- On resuming at 11.55 a.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

18     please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  GORAN SIKIRAS

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Sikiras.

24             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 31007

 1                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sikiras.

 3        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D6803 in

 5     e-court.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Sikiras, did you provide a statement to the Defence team and

 8     can you see it before you on the screen here?

 9        A.   Yes, I can.

10        Q.   I need to ask you the following and it is a reminder for me as

11     well.  We need to pause so as to assist the interpreters and have an

12     accurate transcript.

13             Does the statement accurately reflect your words?

14        A.   Perhaps a name or two is misspelled or omitted.  I see one, for

15     example, instead of an A there is an U in item 6.

16        Q.   Which line?

17        A.   Line 5, the third word, the second letter.  Instead of O there is

18     U.

19        Q.   Thank you.  As for the rest, are there any other typographical

20     mistakes and is the content accurate?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you sign this statement?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   If I were to put the same questions today that were put to you by

25     the team, would your answers be the same in essence?

Page 31008

 1        A.   Yes, they would.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I seek to tender

 3     this statement under Rule 92 ter.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you're not tendering any associated

 5     exhibits?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. McKenna?

 8             MS. McKENNA:  No objection, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted as next Defence exhibit.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D06803 receives number D2540,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to read out in

15     the English language a summary of Professor Sikiras's statement.

16             [In English] Goran Sikiras was a school professor.  He lived in

17     Vogosca municipality.  As soon as the conflict broke out in Sarajevo,

18     barricades were set up and divisions were made based exclusively on the

19     ethnic principle.  His village, Grahoviste, was a mono-ethnic Serbian

20     village and the closest was Kobilja Glava, a mono-ethnic Muslim village.

21     The Muslims set up a barricade on the regional road to Vogosca

22     immediately after the referendum about independence.  When Goran Sikiras

23     passed the barricade, he was checked and there were seven or eight armed

24     Muslims present.  The inhabitants of Grahoviste feared the Muslims

25     because of the barricade and the fact that the Muslims were armed.  By

Page 31009

 1     March 1992 there were barricades in all the settlements around Sarajevo

 2     and in Sarajevo itself, which made it particularly impossible for both

 3     teachers and students to go to school and he stopped going to work in

 4     April.

 5             Out of pure fear for their lives and those of their families,

 6     Serbs organised guards in the village of Grahoviste from April until

 7     May 1992.  Guard was kept around Grahoviste with people carrying hunting

 8     rifles and a few automatic rifles owned by members of the reserve police.

 9     On 2nd or 3rd of May, 1992, the Muslims began shelling the village of

10     Grahoviste indiscriminately, using mortars from their positions in a

11     playground of the school in Kobilja Glava.  The Muslims also fired on the

12     Vogosca municipality, the Pretis factory, Blagovac village, and Hotonj

13     village, Serb part of it.  The population of these was exclusively

14     Serbian and many houses and buildings were damaged, and civilians were

15     killed and wounded.  The members of the village were terrified and most

16     fled to the surrounding woods.

17             Following the shelling, a search of the surrounding area of the

18     village was conducted on 4th of May, 1992, by the Green Berets and the

19     Patriotic League.  On May the 12th of 1992, Goran Sikiras and nine other

20     men from his village joined the Bosnian Serb army in the Vogosca platoon

21     and were deployed to Zuc.  Zuc and the villages on it were 100 per cent

22     Serbian, and on June 1992, Muslims launched a general attack on this

23     area.

24             [Interpretation] This was the short summary.  At this point in

25     time I have no questions of Mr. Sikiras.

Page 31010

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 2             Mr. Sikiras, as you have noted that your evidence in chief was

 3     admitted in written form in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you will be

 4     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

 5             Yes, Ms. McKenna.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sikiras.

 9        A.   Good afternoon, Madam Prosecutor.

10        Q.   We met yesterday and, as we discussed, we are limited in time

11     today, so I'd like you to listen carefully to my questions and please

12     answer them as precisely and as concisely as possible.

13             When we spoke yesterday, we discussed a couple of clarifications

14     in respect of your statement.  At paragraph 70 of your -- excuse me, at

15     paragraph 20 of your statement, you stated that on the 5th of May, 1992,

16     ten of the men from your village went into the woods on Zuc hill.

17     Yesterday you clarified that you remained in the woods on Zuc, protecting

18     the front line, until the attack of 8th June 1992; is that correct?

19        A.   It is correct, although the number of people who were there could

20     not protect the entire area.  We only monitored the village since some

21     ten residents stayed behind and we didn't want any harm to come to them.

22     As for any front lines, it was impossible to establish any with that

23     small number of people we had.  I have tried to explain to you the size

24     of the area further afield following the village and the Zuc peak.  There

25     was no significant defence to speak of.

Page 31011

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Again, I'd like you to answer as

 2     concisely as possible, if you can listen to the question and simply

 3     answer the questions that you were asked.

 4        A.   I'll try my best.

 5        Q.   So you stated that during that period your unit was small and

 6     disorganised, but it subsequently became part of the Vogosca Brigade; is

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   It is.

 9        Q.   And then after the attack of the 8th of June, you moved away from

10     Zuc to another area but remained within the Vogosca Brigade; correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   And then in May 1993, you left the Vogosca Brigade to organise a

13     school in Vogosca; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   At paragraph 6 of your statement you discuss the barricades set

16     up in March 1992 by the Muslims from Kobilja Glava.  And at paragraph 7

17     you state, with reference to those barricades:

18             "It never occurred to us Serbs to do it."

19             Yesterday you clarified that by "us Serbs" you meant the

20     population of Grahoviste village; correct?

21        A.   Yes, of course.

22        Q.   And then in paragraph 8 of your statement, you referred to the

23     barricades set up in Sarajevo and in all the settlements around Sarajevo

24     in March.

25        A.   That was the information we had.  That was something we heard in

Page 31012

 1     the media.  We could see reporting to that effect on TV.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sikiras, many of the barricades in the city of Sarajevo were

 3     set up by Serbs, weren't they?

 4        A.   That is possible.  I didn't see any, given the fact that I didn't

 5     leave the village area for two months.  If I did see anything, I could

 6     only see it on TV if it was shown.

 7        Q.   Well, many of the barricades in the Vogosca municipality were set

 8     up by Serbs, weren't they?

 9        A.   That is possible too.  I repeat:  Throughout the month of April

10     and May up until the 8th of June I was in the forest at Zuc.  I didn't go

11     down once until the attack on the 8th of June, and then I was transferred

12     to another location.

13        Q.   So, Mr. Sikiras, is it your evidence that you do not know whether

14     any barricades were set up by Serbs in the Vogosca municipality?

15        A.   I suppose there were some, but I didn't see any.  It seems to be

16     established that there were barricades.  Now, who posted some and where

17     and whether it was the Muslims or Serbs, I already shared what I know in

18     the statement.  I guess that was standard practice at the time.

19        Q.   Well, those barricades that were set up by Serbs were organised

20     by the Serb municipality authorities, weren't they?

21        A.   I can't say anything precisely, although it may have been

22     possible.  As for what I know, people usually organised themselves.

23     Where there were more families of the same ethnicity, people organised

24     themselves to prevent any surprises.  People stood guard around their

25     houses.  I mentioned yesterday that I saw the end of the war at a

Page 31013

 1     location which I had left in 1993, where people stood guard in front of

 2     their houses throughout the war within a perimeter of literally a couple

 3     dozen metres.  Perhaps you remember it mention -- me mentioning that

 4     yesterday.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  At this stage I'd like to call up 65 ter number

 7     45111C, which is a video.  The Trial Chamber has already admitted a

 8     portion of this video which is a Serbian television interview from 1994.

 9     A portion has already been admitted as P968.  I'd like to play this video

10     which is just under two minutes long and ask the translation booths to

11     translate.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. McKENNA:  If we could just pause before we play this video.

14        Q.   Do you recognise this man?

15        A.   I think this is Mr. Jovan Tintor, as far as I recall, although --

16        Q.   And Mr. Tintor was a prominent member of the SDS in your

17     municipality, wasn't he?

18        A.   Yes, he was.

19             MS. McKENNA:  If we could play the video, please.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

22             "Anchor:  That was -- the barricades were -- let's go back to the

23     barricades for a while.  People thought it strange that Joja Tintor, who

24     was always there in the leadership of the SDS, mostly seen as -- at press

25     conferences, most of the journalists knew who you were, but then again

Page 31014

 1     some people who came from the side didn't know who that man was sitting

 2     at the corner of the table.  Barricades were set up and you were not in

 3     the Holiday Inn.

 4             "Jovan Tintor:  Well, you see, when the barricades began, I was

 5     in Sarajevo, but only once did I succeed in coming to town because I was

 6     in the headquarters and involved the organisation, at the top of the

 7     organisation for the barricades.  Once I went to Vogosca, I went to

 8     organise the same thing there.  I came back once to Sarajevo and made

 9     arrangements with Mr. Dukic but that was mostly by phone of course

10     because --

11             "Anchor:  And the telephone was being tapped?

12             "Jovan Tintor:  I know that only too well.  They made a good use

13     of it.  However, I came back again, went towards the city again.  Of

14     course I had good security because I know that Muslims were well armed.

15     At Kobilja Glava there were barricades and I could not go past them to

16     Sarajevo.  I tried going through Rajlovac but the same thing happened

17     there as well.  Where they put up the barricades, I could not pass to

18     Sarajevo.  I went back to Vogosca and in a certain manner I stayed in

19     touch with the headquarters that was in the hands of Mr. Lukic.  I was

20     responsible for that part of Vogosca and Ilijas.  I had regular contacts

21     with everybody.  I believe that it was brilliantly performed.  It was an

22     action of which all organisers, military organisers could envy us."

23             MS. McKENNA:

24        Q.   So, in fact, Mr. Sikiras, according to Mr. Tintor, the barricades

25     that Serbs erected in the Vogosca municipality were organised by him; is

Page 31015

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   If that's what he says, then I don't have that information.  I

 3     told you that I was literally isolated for two months.  I didn't leave

 4     the village.  I hear this statement for the first time --

 5        Q.   Thank you --

 6        A.   -- I can't say anything.  I wasn't present.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. McKENNA:  I'd like to tender that as an exhibit, please.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  It's a statement of a

10     third party and we don't admit those, and also the witness has not

11     adopted or confirmed anything about the statement.

12             MS. McKENNA:  If I may have a moment, Your Honour.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. TIEGER:  Rather than explain the custom --

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, it's a little unfair to ask Ms. McKenna to

19     deal with this since this is a matter that was raised in court prior to

20     her arrival.  But I think the Court will recall that the distinction made

21     was - and it was made repeatedly and made explicitly by

22     Mr. Robinson - that if these are essentially contemporaneous accounts

23     by -- at or around the time by officials in the position to know and so

24     forth, and this is Mr. Tintor -- I think the nature of this -- this is

25     not a statement taken by law enforcement authorities which was one of the

Page 31016

 1     distinctions we made in terms of the statement versus other forms of

 2     assertions about what happened.  We made the point previously that with

 3     respect to persons closely associated with the events in question and

 4     with the leadership, they basically amounted to admissions that in an

 5     adversarial system would be admissible, something I'm sure Judge Morrison

 6     in particular is aware of.  I think for all those reasons, this -- these

 7     statements by Mr. Tintor fall within the parameters of admissibility that

 8     have become part of the practice of this case.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, have we not dealt with the television

10     interview, in particular interviews with video, a bit differently from

11     the pure third-party statement?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we have in some cases, and I'm -- I'm

13     remembering an interview of a Mr. Stanic in particular that you omitted

14     over our objection.  And it's still -- and so that's true.  But it's our

15     position that this, number one, that this is not a contemporaneous

16     interview, it's one after the fact, and that, nevertheless, we object to

17     it because when an interview -- a substantive interview of someone making

18     a statement after the fact is admitted, we don't have the chance to ask

19     that witness what they meant or confront that evidence.  So it's getting

20     something in through the backdoor where this witness also knows nothing

21     about that, which is a second ground for my objection that maybe even in

22     spite of the practice with Mr. Stanic should be upheld because this

23     witness has absolutely given no information about -- that would warrant

24     admission through him.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 31017

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Again, I think I'll be

 2     repeating points that were made to the Court earlier, but speaking of

 3     backdoor, this is just a backdoor hearsay objection.  Hearsay is clearly

 4     permissible in this institution and Mr. Robinson's objection tries to

 5     ignore that.  The original concern about statements was the extent to

 6     which they may or may not contravene 92 bis and we tried to carve out

 7     appropriate and reasonable and pragmatic parameters that dealt with that.

 8     That's why a portion of this previous -- of this interview previously was

 9     admitted.  It's a reflection of precisely what I described earlier.  And

10     for these reasons and others, this should be properly admitted and was --

11     a portion of it was previously.

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  But, Mr. Tieger - sorry about that - would you

13     describe it as a contemporaneous statement at all?

14             MR. TIEGER:  It's a war-time statement, Mr. President.  I think

15     in the context we outlined earlier, that would make it contemporaneous.

16     It's a -- it's done in the -- I mean, no one was ever talking about a

17     statement that was made at the exact moment of the events in question.

18     So in terms of the practice that's been developed, contemporaneous was

19     basically linked to the other issue I described, is there this belated,

20     after-the-war effort to collect information by law enforcement officials

21     and others that makes it much more akin to the kind of information that

22     should properly be in the form of 92 bis.  But in -- so interviews that

23     took place in the general context of the war, as events were progressing

24     and as political figures and military figures were trying to make known

25     their position to their constituency so that -- to encourage them or to

Page 31018

 1     explain their position to internationals, that was contemporaneous in

 2     that context.  It was considered as such by the Court previously.  And as

 3     I say, I believe that's part of the reason, although there are others,

 4     why Mr. Stanic's statement and a portion of this interview was previously

 5     admitted.

 6             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, following up on Judge Baird's question,

 8     may we know the date of this statement is one thing that would be useful?

 9     And secondly, perhaps Mr. Tieger could address how in the -- in our

10     previous practice a statement like this has been admitted through a

11     witness who could provide no information or comment on the statement.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  And just to follow up briefly on the question

15     Mr. Robinson raised, which I'm grateful for because I think it

16     illustrates another reason for the admissibility, this was in 1994 and it

17     was broadcast by Serb Radio and Television.  As we learned earlier in the

18     day, that's a Bosnian Serb governmental arm established by the

19     Bosnian Serb authorities for the purpose of disseminating their views.

20     So the provenance -- the reason these things come in is because their

21     provenance is not at issue in any way, shape, or form; it's something

22     that the organs of RS want to be heard; it would be a terrible anomaly if

23     they were to disseminate this, want their constituency, and indeed the

24     whole world to hear it, and yet this Court couldn't consider it in the

25     totality of the evidence.

Page 31019

 1             THE ACCUSED:  May I --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No, we'll stop here.

 3             THE ACCUSED:  Please, I have to comment this because this is not

 4     true.  Authorities never edited this.  That was completely independent

 5     and it was the only service -- state service like BBC and not propaganda

 6     device.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll stop here.

 8             It has been the practice of this Trial Chamber that a third-party

 9     statement may not be admitted unless its content is commented upon,

10     confirmed, or adopted by the witness on the stand.  And even in case of

11     Stanic with respect to Foca municipality, the then-witness commented on

12     some of the statements Stanic made in the video about the SDS policies in

13     Foca municipality.  So I -- the Chamber sees no reason to defer from our

14     past practice.  Given that witness didn't confirm anything about

15     Mr. Tintor's interview statement, the Chamber will not receive this

16     interview at this time.  Let us proceed.

17             Yes, Ms. McKenna.

18             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   At paragraph 9 of your statement you state that you organised

20     guards in the village of Grahoviste from April 1992 until 4th of May,

21     1992.  And at paragraph 13 of your statement you state that you kept

22     guard around the village carrying shot-guns that belonged to hunters and

23     a couple of automatic rifles owned by members of the reserve police.  The

24     Trial Chamber has heard evidence that as early as January 1992, arms were

25     being distributed from the JNA barracks at Semizovac to Serb villages.

Page 31020

 1             MS. McKENNA:  And for the benefit of the Chamber and

 2     Mr. Karadzic, that's P2344, paragraph 35.

 3        Q.   Mr. Sikiras, were you aware of this distribution?

 4        A.   No.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  I'd like to look at a report that is in evidence

 6     before the Trial Chamber, that's P979.  We may have to switch back from

 7     Sanction to e-court.  And at page 1 of both the English and the B/C/S of

 8     this report, you'll see that it is a report authored by Milutin Kukanjac,

 9     who was commander of the JNA 2nd Military District, and it's dated the

10     20th of March, 1992, and it relates to the assessment of the situation in

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12             If we could move to page 6 of the English and page 7 of the

13     B/C/S, please.

14        Q.   I'd like to -- I'd like you to focus on heading 5, volunteer

15     forces in the 2nd Military District zone, and if you would look at

16     subsection (c) of section 5 which defines the -- or describes what

17     volunteers are for the purpose of this report.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Probably now we need to show the next page in B/C/S.

19             MS. McKENNA:

20        Q.   And then if you focus on subsection (f) which states that the JNA

21     has distributed 51.900 weapons and the SDS 17.298 weapons to these

22     volunteers.

23             Are you following me, Mr. Sikiras?

24             MS. McKENNA:  Could we move to page 11 in the English and page 16

25     in the B/C/S, please.

Page 31021

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wasn't able to see where it says

 2     that the -- these weapons were distributed to the volunteers.  That's in

 3     lines 23 and 24 of the transcript.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go back to the previous page.

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page.

 7             MS. McKENNA:  Subsection (c) states that -- the section deals

 8     with volunteer forces --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, section 5 itself deals with the --

10             MS. McKENNA:  Volunteer forces --

11             JUDGE KWON:  -- volunteer forces in the second --

12             MS. McKENNA:  Subsection (c) defines what volunteers are for the

13     purposes of this report, namely, conscripts from -- I'm sorry.

14             "No volunteers are potential conscripts for the regular units of

15     the 2nd army and only a small number are from the TO of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina; in other words, the volunteer units are not part of the JNA

17     and the TO establishment structure."

18             And then subsection (f) details the numbers of weapons

19     distributed to volunteers.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue.

21             MS. McKENNA:  So if we could again move to pages 11 of the

22     English version and page 16 of the B/C/S.

23        Q.   And we see the total weapons distributed is 69.198.  And,

24     Mr. Sikiras, if I can ask you to focus on entry number 5 in that list

25     which states Vogosca municipality, 1500.  So this report shows that by

Page 31022

 1     20th of March, 1992, 1500 men who were not part of the JNA or the TO had

 2     been armed by either the JNA or the SDS in the Vogosca municipality.

 3             Were you aware that by the middle of March 1992, 1500 men in your

 4     municipality had been so armed?

 5        A.   No, I wasn't.

 6        Q.   But you yourself were given a rifle in order to defend your

 7     village, weren't you?

 8        A.   Yesterday I said that we were such a small group and that due to

 9     that we were not given certain things.  Only after the fall of the

10     village and after a platoon had been established at Zuc made up of

11     20 people from Vogosca we organised ourselves and we managed to get hold

12     of some pieces of infantry weapons.

13        Q.   So you stated that this unit that you joined was disorganised at

14     first but then subsequently became part of the Vogosca Brigade of the

15     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; correct?

16        A.   I don't know precisely about this part of the unit.  In my view,

17     it was not organised because during the 20 days that they spent there

18     while the attack was going on, I don't know if there was something

19     happening.  I remember an officer passing through.  I don't even remember

20     his name.  So every day the shift commander would be replaced by someone

21     else and then the new commander would change the whole team and that

22     happened two or three times until the line fell.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. McKenna, I take it that you need more time?  I

24     see the time.

25             MS. McKENNA:  Yes, very brief, probably five minutes.

Page 31023

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll take a break after you conclude your

 2     cross-examination.

 3             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.

 4             Actually, Your Honour, I don't mean to misrepresent the time, so

 5     just in case I take longer, I think we should probably take the break

 6     now.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll have a break for 45 minutes and

 8     resume at 20 past 1.00.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12                           --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, thank you.  I would ask to be

15     permitted to raise once again the issue that was raised with -- in

16     connection with the admissibility of the interview and in connection with

17     some quick research I undertook and the nature of the argument that was

18     presented.

19             First of all, just so we're on the same playing field, there was

20     reference made to statements and the meaning of statements within the

21     jurisprudence of the Tribunal, strict meaning and how else it's been

22     applied.  It should be clear, I hope, that statements within the

23     jurisprudence of the Tribunal refer to information given with an eye

24     toward giving evidence before the Tribunal or possibly a domestic

25     proceeding, that is, documents made in relation to pending or anticipated

Page 31024

 1     legal proceedings involving a dispute as to which some fact in that

 2     document may be aimed.  And as two examples, I would cite the 7 June 2002

 3     Galic decision and the 1 September 2006 Milutinovic decision.

 4             But more to the point, Mr. President, there was an issue that was

 5     really at the heart of the discussion that I thought was implicit but

 6     upon looking at the transcript I should take some responsibility for not

 7     making far more clear, and that's the context in which this arises.  So

 8     reference was made to the practice that existed and the specific example

 9     of the Stanic instance and that -- and then Mr. Robinson asked the

10     rhetorical question of the previous practice of admitting a statement

11     that has been -- where a witness has provided information or commented in

12     particular on that -- on the information in question.  And of course what

13     that overlooks is the fact that there are, as we've discussed in other

14     contexts, numerous bases for admission, one of which of course has been

15     contextualisation, another one has been affirmation, but the third one of

16     which, which we identified very clearly and has been the basis for

17     admissibility, acknowledged basis for admissibility, is impeachment and

18     that's what this document goes to, and that's the basis for admissibility

19     here.  So it's inapposite to compare it to the Stanic situation, which

20     was the Prosecution eliciting sufficient information from the witness

21     about the document so that it was sufficiently contextualised or

22     commented on.

23             This is a situation where no such comment is required, as the

24     Defence has explicitly acknowledged in other circumstances, because it is

25     impeachment.  And I can go to the nature of that impeachment although I

Page 31025

 1     think it's very clear to the Court, but if I were to do so, I would ask

 2     the witness to take off his headphones.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I heard you out, Mr. Tieger, but are you saying that

 4     we should reconsider our decision not to admit that document --

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  -- that interview?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  It's a sparing use of an in-court motion for

 8     reconsideration, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  I would like to ask the witness to excuse

11     himself for the moment.

12             Mr. Pejic [sic], if you could understand us, if you could excuse

13     yourself for the moment for us to have a debate in your absence.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Tieger, would you like to continue, in

17     particular as regards your points of impeachment.

18             MR. TIEGER:  I can certainly ask Ms. McKenna to amplify it since

19     it's her witness, but in essence my -- as I understand the evidence, the

20     witness is proffered to offer evidence that the events of the barricade

21     were spontaneous and the Tintor interview goes to contradict that point,

22     showing just the opposite, that they were organised.  That's a fairly

23     clear-cut case of impeachment and the admissibility of the document for

24     that reason, as we've seen repeatedly during the course of the Defence

25     case.

Page 31026

 1             Now, again, if Ms. McKenna sees a more nuanced aspect that needs

 2     to be amplified, I invite her to do that.  But that's the thrust of the

 3     issue.  Witness comes in and says it happened one way, here's an SDS

 4     official saying no, it happened in an organised fashion.

 5             JUDGE BAIRD:  But, Mr. Tieger, just for my information, the issue

 6     of impeachment wasn't raised during argumentation before lunch, was it?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Well, Mr. President, I -- it's true that --

 8             JUDGE BAIRD:  No, I'm just asking.  That's all.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  It was not addressed explicitly, but given the

10     context in which the matter arose -- I mean, that's why I didn't stress

11     that point at the time.  I thought that given the context in which it

12     arose it was rather implicit.  Now looking at the transcript I realised

13     that it may have been overlooked and thought for that reason it should be

14     re-raised with the Court.  So my apologies for not making it more

15     explicit --

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  That's all right.  Thank you very much indeed.

17     Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And further, the witness did not deny the fact that

19     barricades in Sarajevo or in Vogosca municipality were set up by Serbs.

20     He conceded to that possibility, didn't he?

21             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, if I may briefly amplify.  The witness

22     testimony is that the actions that were taken in his village were

23     spontaneous in response to actions taken by the Bosnian Muslims.  In his

24     response to the motion to exclude Mr. Sikiras's evidence, Mr. Karadzic

25     stated that this witness's testimony went to the issue of whether the

Page 31027

 1     events were simply part of a civil war or were part of a JCE.  Now, it's

 2     the Prosecution's contention that evidence that Jovan Tintor and the Serb

 3     municipality authorities organised the barricades in the municipality

 4     directly contradicts Mr. Karadzic's contention and the witness's

 5     evidence.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  There are so many hurdles for

 8     this to be admitted.  First of all, this is for reconsideration.  So

 9     you've frequently denied a reconsideration on grounds that there's been

10     no justification for -- no injustice by the Trial Chamber's ruling, and

11     under the very high standard of reconsideration, this argument of

12     Mr. Tieger's made this afternoon doesn't meet that standard.

13             Secondly, if you're talking about impeachment, if you look at the

14     witness's statement, there's nothing in the witness's statement that

15     deals with the spontaneity of the barricades.  And Mr. Tintor's comments

16     are not directly impeaching of anything that the witness said because it

17     may very well have been that these barricades were organised in response

18     to what they perceived as Muslim acts or Muslim barricades which would

19     not be inconsistent with the witness's statement.

20             Furthermore, it's a very slippery slope to take a comment by

21     someone else in 1994, two years after the fact, and make it admissible as

22     impeachment to a witness who doesn't know that person, who may have no --

23     who basically has no connection with those events in the way that he

24     would be expected to know the -- what is -- what he's being impeached on.

25     So, for example, if you can bring any witness for the Prosecution, let's

Page 31028

 1     say a UN military observer, and he says:  I saw the Serbs doing

 2     indiscriminate and disproportionate fire.  Then you could confront him

 3     with a plethora of statements by everybody from the Bosnian Serb

 4     leadership saying:  No, I never -- we never fired deliberately or

 5     indiscriminately, and those could all be admissible under that theory

 6     that it impeaches the UN observer's testimony.

 7             So I don't think that this impeachment can be used as a bootstrap

 8     to admit things that are not otherwise admissible, and I think that the

 9     contradiction has to go directly to what the witness would be expected to

10     know.  And when we start varying from that principle, I think it just

11     opens the door to statements coming in with witnesses who basically know

12     nothing about the issue.  Thank you.

13             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, if I may respond or reply briefly on

14     the issue of whether or not this document impeaches the witness's

15     testimony.  At page 56 of today's transcript at the -- actually, page 55,

16     line 25, I asked whether the barricades that were set up by Serbs were

17     organised by the Serb municipality authorities.  And the witnesses said,

18     and I quote:

19             "I can't say anything precisely, although it may have been

20     possible.  As for what I know, people usually organised themselves.

21     Where there were more families of the same ethnicity, people organised

22     themselves to prevent any surprises."

23             So it's clearly the -- the witness is clearly testifying that

24     the -- that the barricades were not organised more broadly but were

25     organised on a family-by-family basis.

Page 31029

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I'm sorry.  I hope it's not seen as

 2     double teaming, but just with respect to Mr. Robinson's slippery-slope

 3     argument that raises a bogeyman which is clearly not implicated by this

 4     particular evidence, the foundation for which was laid by Ms. McKenna and

 5     her questions to the witness about Mr. Tintor.  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will put this issue under advisement and

 8     give its ruling tomorrow.

 9             Let's continue with the witness.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Sikiras, for your kind understanding.

12             Ms. McKenna, please continue.

13             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Mr. Sikiras, just before our first break you described

15     disorganised units -- a unit with commanders coming and going.  In your

16     statement, as clarified by your previous testimony today, you stated that

17     at some point your unit became part of the Vogosca Brigade.  Now,

18     yesterday when we spoke you stated that you could not recall what date

19     your unit became formally part of the Vogosca Brigade.  Is that still

20     correct, you still can't recall that?

21        A.   I don't know exactly because I didn't have that information, but

22     since these 20-odd people were coming there over that period, probably

23     that is what it meant.  So if they organised themselves to come and

24     assist in that particular area, it would have been understood as being

25     their area of responsibility as well.

Page 31030

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to try to refresh your memory by looking at

 2     two documents.

 3             MS. McKENNA:  The first of those is P2624.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sikiras you'll see that this is an announcement dated the

 5     11th of May, 1992, from the Serb Municipality Vogosca Crisis Staff

 6     president, Jovan Tintor, who we discussed earlier today.  And it states

 7     that:

 8             "All conscripts from the territory of Vogosca aged from 16 to 60

 9     inhabiting Pale or the surrounding towns are requested to report

10     immediately to the command of the Territorial Defence of the Serb

11     Municipality of Vogosca for the mobilisation and the deployment to their

12     combat tasks."

13             Do you recall this announcement?

14        A.   I don't know if this announcement is linked to the day when it

15     was a formation or whether it was a day before --

16        Q.   Well --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

18     move closer to the microphone.

19             MS. McKENNA:

20        Q.   I'm sorry, may I stop you, Mr. Sikiras.  The interpreters have

21     asked you to move a little closer to the microphone so that they can hear

22     you.  But on the issue of --

23        A.   [In English] I'm sorry.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you ask him to repeat his answer.

25             MS. McKENNA:

Page 31031

 1        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer.  Do you recall this

 2     announcement?

 3        A.   I didn't hear this announcement; however, on the radio, whilst we

 4     were at Zuc before the platoon was formed, I heard on the radio - I don't

 5     know exactly the formulation - but that the army of the Serbian people of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina had been established and I don't know if it is linked

 7     to this particular announcement.  But I personally didn't hear this

 8     announcement.  So as I'm telling you, that was at the end of the

 9     so-called territory so we were deprived of certain information.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please have document P1505 on our screens.

12        Q.   And again, Mr. Sikiras, this relates to the specific date on

13     which the Vogosca Brigade was formed.  And you'll see that this is an

14     order dated the 22nd of May, 1992, from Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Sipcic on

15     the organisational and formation alterations in the SRK.  I'd like you to

16     focus on section 1 of the document, subsection (f).

17             MS. McKENNA:  If the -- if we could have the section (f) in

18     English as well, please.

19        Q.   And this states that the Vogosca TO brigade will be formed from

20     the territory of Vogosca and the commander of the brigade will be

21     Captain Jovan Tintor.

22             So, Mr. Sikiras, in fact the Vogosca Brigade was formed on the

23     22nd of May, 1992, and at the date of its formation its commander was

24     Jovan Tintor; isn't that correct?

25        A.   I have to tell you, while I'm looking at this passage, I don't

Page 31032

 1     know about Mr. Tintor but I do remember the name of Mr. Vukota Vukovic

 2     who is mentioned here as well.  He was the one who passed across the line

 3     where we were.  I have no information about Tintor being -- I really have

 4     no information to that effect.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sikiras.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

 7     witness.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. McKenna.

 9             Do you have re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Excellency.  I would just

11     like -- wish to say thank you to Mr. Sikiras.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13             Mr. Sikiras, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

14     Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.

15     Now you are free to go.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good luck.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we bring in the next witness?

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  VELJKO LUBURA

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Lubura.  Please take a seat and make

Page 31033

 1     yourself comfortable.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lubura.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D6806 in

 8     e-court.  1D6806.  Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Lubura, have you given a statement to the Defence team and is

11     the statement that you see on the screen the one that you gave them?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   Thank you for waiting for interpretation and please let us

14     continue pausing between questions and answers.  Have you read the

15     statement and have you signed it?

16        A.   Yes, I have.

17        Q.   Does this statement truthfully reflect your words?

18        A.   Yes, it does.

19        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today in

20     this courtroom, would your answers essentially be the same?

21        A.   Definitely.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I would like to

24     tender this statement and the package along with 92 ter maps.  Maybe I am

25     going to tender into evidence live some additional documents that we

Page 31034

 1     still have to print due to the shortage of paper.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering any associated exhibits?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're tendering the two maps

 4     that are listed in our Rule 92 ter package and we would ask permission

 5     that they be added to our 65 ter list since they weren't in existence at

 6     the time we filed that list.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I think at least we need translation of the legend.

 8     We can't read what it says.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have a translation of "Legenda"?

11             THE ACCUSED:  Just a minute, Your Excellency.

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, any objections, other than the

14     translation issue?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't have the translation, so if you prefer

17     that we -- he interpret it live or if you're willing to -- given that

18     it's a legend, MFI it and have us provide the translation later, one of

19     those two.

20             JUDGE KWON:  At least we understand -- in order for us to

21     understand fully, probably Mr. Karadzic needs to lead some evidence in

22     relation to that -- these maps.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well.  We'll do that.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then we'll admit only the statement at

25     this point.

Page 31035

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6806 receives number D2541,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I would like to

 6     read the short summary of Mr. Lubura's statement in English.

 7             [In English] During the war, Veljko Lubura, an educated and

 8     experienced electric engineer, was engaged in compulsory work service at

 9     the Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska based in Pale.  He kept a post of

10     chief engineer for the distribution of electric energy.  Upon

11     reorganisation of the Elektroprivreda Republika Srpska in August 1992 he

12     was appointed director of the Elektroprenos plant in Ilidza, that means

13     electro transmission.

14             According to the agreements reached at Sarajevo airport between

15     representatives of the Elektroprivreda Republika Srpska and

16     representatives of the Elektroprivreda BH, the line from Reljevo towards

17     Buca Potok in the Muslim part of Sarajevo was to be used to supply

18     electric power for the needs of the core of city under Muslim control,

19     Grbavica settlement, Hadzici, Ilidza, Rajlovac, Ilijas, and Vogosca, as

20     well as the water-pump station in Bacevo at Ilidza.

21             In 1992 and later on, Serb company led by Mr. Lubura tried to

22     repair the Reljevo-Vogosca and Vogosca-Velesici and Vogosca-Sokolac

23     transmission lines, but mainly failed to do so because of the combat

24     operations and obstruction by the Muslim side.  In particular, the Muslim

25     side obstructed the supply of the Vogosca substation where the Pretis and

Page 31036

 1     TAS factories were situated.  Due to these obstructions, the Velesici

 2     substation did not receive electric power to transmit it further across

 3     the part of the city under Muslim control.

 4             In late 1992, the Serbs managed to put in operation the

 5     Visegrad-Rogatica-Sokolac transmission line that the Muslim army had

 6     damaged in Gornja Lijeska village and created conditions -- the Serbs

 7     created conditions for the hydro power to start operating with

 8     technological minimum.  The Visegrad-Rogatica-Sokolac-Vogosca

 9     transmission line was out of function between Sokolac and Vogosca because

10     it was demolished by Muslim forces in order to prevent the supply to the

11     Pretis and TAS factories in Vogosca.  This resulted in the Serbian side

12     being prevented from distributing electric power from Vogosca to Reljevo,

13     Serbian territory, and from Vogosca to Velesici, Muslim territory.

14             In December 1992, the Serbs tried to distribute electric power to

15     Muslim settlement Hrasnica.  Given that the Hrasnica-Blazuj transmission

16     line and cables were cut, they were not able to do this without major

17     repair work and these were all along the lines of disengagement between

18     the Serbian and Muslim armies.  They were advised to transmit by overhead

19     conductors to the water-supply system in Igman or else Juka Prazina's

20     unit would shell the Serbian area.  So the Serbs managed to do this but

21     the voltage from the transmission line to the substation on Hrasnica

22     could not be transmitted due to the failures of this line that was not

23     under Serbian control.  This resulted in Blazuj substation being shelled

24     by Juka Prazina units, and for this reason, the whole area of

25     north-western Sarajevo, both Serbian and Muslim parts, remained without

Page 31037

 1     electric power supply until the end of January 1993 when the Serbs

 2     managed to repair the Blazuj substation.

 3             The lack of electric power supply in the core city under the

 4     Muslim control was due to the failures in the transmission line which

 5     usually occurred along the line of disengagement.  When such a thing

 6     happened, they would negotiate at the airport to carry out joint repair

 7     work in the presence of UNPROFOR.  On one occasion, while attempting to

 8     repair a transmission line, they came under fire originating from Ugarsko

 9     which was under Muslim control.

10             It was only with the liberation of Trnovo in July 1993 that they

11     managed to repair the Buk Bijela-Lukavica transmission line and thus

12     bring in quality energy power from Montenegro to the Lukavica substation

13     for the first time since the beginning of the war.  The company of

14     Mr. Lubura also prepared -- were prepared to transmit further part of the

15     energy to substations in Dobrinja, Otoka, and Skenderija on the Muslim

16     side under the condition that the transmission lines connecting these

17     substations were repaired.  However, the Muslim side showed no interest

18     in this proposal.

19             Veljko Lubura responsibly claims that nobody, both from the

20     municipal or republican level, civilian or military authorities, ever

21     ordered him, orally or in writing, to cut off electric power supply to

22     any part of Sarajevo and he would not done this even if given such

23     instructions.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Now this is what I would like us to do, I'd like us to deal with

Page 31038

 1     these maps.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could we have 1D6804, D2541 is

 3     its number now, I believe.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it has been admitted yet.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe it was only the statement

 6     that was admitted, then?  So 1D6804.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Lubura, did you mark anything on this map and can you explain

 9     to us what this map shows and can you tell us what the notes, or rather,

10     the legend say?

11        A.   This is the situation -- this is the situation regarding the

12     transmission lines and transformer stations before the war.  The red line

13     are 400-kilowatt transmission lines that came to Reljevo.  So the Reljevo

14     transmission station was in this ring of 400-kilowatt lines called

15     Nikola Tesla.  They got energy from Mostar and further down there is a

16     transformer station called Cula --

17        Q.   I beg your pardon, that is what is written there.

18        A.   Yes, Mostar-Sarajevo, the 400-kilowatt transmission line.  Then

19     Sarajevo 10, Reljevo-Tuzla, is the other transmission line.  Then also

20     there is another 400-kilowatt transmission line, Sarajevo 10,

21     Sarajevo 20, Lukavica.  So energy could arrive in Reljevo from all

22     sources in Bosnia-Herzegovina and all sources in the former Yugoslavia.

23             Now the black line are 110-kilowatt transmission lines and the

24     dotted black line are the two-system transmission lines.  From Reljevo,

25     transformer stations 110, 8, 7, 2, and 5 received their energy, Kosevo,

Page 31039

 1     Velesici, Buca Potok, and Azici, so that is the inner city of Sarajevo.

 2     From Lukavica it was transformer stations 13, 14, and 15, that's

 3     Skenderija, Otoka, and Dobrinja.  The transformer station Sarajevo 1,

 4     which was built a long time ago, in 1954, received energy from two

 5     transmission lines from the Jablanica hydroelectric power-plant.

 6        Q.   Sorry, to make it clear to the Trial Chamber, Jablanica is near

 7     Mostar?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  That is the first big hydroelectric power-plant that

 9     was built after the Second World War, in 1954, and then there was

10     Sarajevo 1 and Sarajevo 2.  They were concrete pillars and they are to

11     this day.

12             When the war started, most of these transmission lines had been

13     destroyed because of the war operations.  From Reljevo, or rather, from

14     Sarajevo 10 via the 110-kilowatt transmission line, Kiseljak, or rather,

15     the transformer station of Kiseljak received electricity as well.  So

16     during the war operations, all the transmission lines were seriously

17     damaged.  So the only possibility for Sarajevo to get electric energy

18     from the coal-fired power-plant in Kakanj and from Jablanica was

19     Sarajevo 10, Kiseljak, that transmission line which was linked to 220,

20     that transmission line -- oh, I'm sorry, I'm speaking too fast.

21             So the transmission line Sarajevo 10, Kiseljak was linked up via

22     antennae to the 220-transmission line to Kakanj-Jablanica, and this

23     happened at Kokoska, near Kiseljak.  Electric energy was sent via this

24     transmission line to Sarajevo 10, Reljevo, and from there we sent 20 plus

25     3 megawatt to the transformer station Sarajevo 7, Buca Potok, that was

Page 31040

 1     under Muslim control.  Also, from Sarajevo 10, 110-kilowatt transmission

 2     lines, we followed 20 plus 3 megawatt to the transformer station

 3     Sarajevo 1, Blazuj; and 3 megawatt in accordance with our agreement we

 4     sent via 10-kilowatt cable to the road network in Bacevo and Konaci.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We have all of that in your statement.  I wanted to

 6     ask you to help the Trial Chamber in the following.  Where does this

 7     middle transmission line bring electricity from?

 8        A.   Both the Kakanj power-plant and the Jablanica power-plant were

 9     under Muslim control.  The entire transmission line of Jablanica-Kakanj

10     was under Muslim control as well, and what was our under control was the

11     transmission line up to the separation line with the Croats.  And that is

12     Kobiljaca, I think that's the name, to Kobiljaca.  So that was under our

13     control.  The Buca Potok, Sarajevo 10, transmission line was under our

14     control to -- for a very small section and already further on --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what these three dots on the legend

18     mean?

19        A.   The red line [In English] Red line, 400 kV transmission line.

20     [Interpretation] Yes.  The black line [In English] Black line, 110 kV TL,

21     yeah, transmission line.  [Interpretation] And this black line with these

22     dots, that is two times 110-kilowatt transmission lines.  So it's a

23     double system.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In your previous answer it was not recorded that

25     line 10 was partly under our control, a small part.  And then further on

Page 31041

 1     and it -- there's no end to that --

 2        A.   Sarajevo 10 -- 7, Buca Potok.  Most of the transmission line was

 3     under Muslim control.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And this southern and south-eastern part towards

 5     Bijela, where did electricity come from there?

 6        A.   Electricity came to Lukavica -- before the war came from Reljevo

 7     along a 400-kilowatt transmission line and from the hydroelectric

 8     power-plant of Mratinje, that is in Montenegro, because the first

 9     400-kilowatt transmission line in Bosnia-Herzegovina was

10     Sarajevo-Buk Bijela.  However, to this day its voltage is 220 kV and in

11     Buk Bijela it comes together with the Mratinje-Buk Bijela transmission

12     line.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, can this map be

15     admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6804 receives number D2542,

20     Your Honours.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Just one question.  Since the confrontation line is not marked

23     here, under whose control were stations 13, 14, 15, Skenderija, Otoka,

24     and Dobrinja, under whose control were these neighbourhoods?

25        A.   Under Muslim control.  And, for example, this transmission line,

Page 31042

 1     2 times 110, Sarajevo 20, Lukavica-Skenderija, to this day it hasn't been

 2     repaired.  The ones towards Dobrinja and Otoka have been repaired.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D6805.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did you mark this map?  Can you tell us first what the legend

 7     says?

 8        A.   This is the way it is.  This is a map of the former JUGEL, that

 9     was the former community of power manufacturers of the former Yugoslavia,

10     and it shows all the transmission lines.  So the red line, 400 kV

11     transmission line; green line, 220 kV transmission lines; black line,

12     110 kV transmission lines, along with their respective transformer

13     stations.  This is the situation towards the end of 1990.  It hasn't

14     changed much to this day.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And during the war - you described this in your

16     statement - you managed to include Visegrad in this network for the

17     Sarajevo zone.

18        A.   I'll explain this to you.  The Visegrad hydroelectric power-plant

19     of 315 megawatt was linked into the electric energy system of the former

20     Yugoslavia with a 400-kilowatt transmission line,

21     Visegrad-Zvornik-Tuzla-Ljubace, but also there were 110 kV transmission

22     lines, Visegrad-Rogatica, transformer station Rogatica, transformer

23     station Sokolac, and transformer station Sarajevo, Vogosca, 4.  Also

24     there were two transmission lines, one of them went to Rudo.  It operated

25     under 35 but it was designed as a 110 kV transmission line, and then

Page 31043

 1     there was the one in Visegrad, going from Visegrad to Gorazde 2 and then

 2     Kopaci.  In my statement I said Visegrad because the transmission line

 3     goes from Visegrad via Zepa, next to Srebrenica, Konjevic Polje, Cerska.

 4     It arrives in Begluk Polje, near Zvornik, and from there it leads to

 5     Tuzla and Ljubace.  It was seriously damaged so the only thing -- so that

 6     this Visegrad could function at a technological minimum, at least one

 7     generator, we had to repair this 110 kV transmission line to Rogatica and

 8     Sokolac and to Hresa, where we linked up.  There was actually a bypass

 9     and we actually supplied the transformer station at Pale which before the

10     war received electricity from Velesici, that is to say, Sarajevo 2.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what happens

12     when there are no transmission lines left.

13        A.   When there are no transmission lines left, then an exchange has

14     to be switched off.  This is a technical question.  So the exchange has

15     to be -- has to be switched off, it has -- so the power-plant has to be

16     switched off.  There has to be a balance.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6805 receives number D2543,

21     Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             1D8618, could we have that, please.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Lubura, you do understand English?

Page 31044

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This is a letter that a member of the Presidency, Mrs. Plavsic,

 3     Professor Plavsic, sent to General Morillon.  Since you speak English,

 4     can you tell us what this is about?

 5        A.   Mrs. Plavsic authorised us to negotiate with the Muslim side at

 6     the Sarajevo airport.  I can just tell you that this man,

 7     Spasoje Marinkovic, was an assistant of mine.  Dragan Despotovic was

 8     director before I became director of transmission.  As agreed with me, he

 9     went to UNPROFOR and he acted as our liaison person.  And these are other

10     staff members of mine, Velimir Radovic, Bratic, Golubovic, Vanovac, so we

11     were in charge of electricity.  These were people who worked for me.

12             As for the people down here who were in charge of water, I mean I

13     don't even know them personally.

14        Q.   Thank you.  How many electric fitters did you have?

15        A.   In transmission we covered ten transformer stations and long

16     transmission lines.  In order to service this properly and to maintain it

17     properly, even in peace time, I had just one transmission line team,

18     four fitters, and a foreman, and I was supposed to have at least five

19     teams in peace time.  The other field was the other service for

20     protection and for measurements.  I had four electric fitters, and

21     although I was manager of the plant, I often worked on these actual

22     fittings.  So practically most of the time I spent in the car going from

23     one transformer station to another, from Visegrad, Foca, Rudo, in the

24     Sarajevo region, those transformer stations there.  You know that, for

25     example, from Ilidza to the transformer station of Lukavica, instead of

Page 31045

 1     taking a 10-kilometre road, I went through the woods and took a route of

 2     96 kilometres.  So I would spend the entire day to go to repair the

 3     equipment at the transformer station of Lukavica.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you just please repeat how long were the

 5     transmission lines that were under your authority.

 6        A.   I believe it was over 200 kilometres.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  These teams, did they co-operate with UNPROFOR and

 8     did they go out to do repair work and did anyone from your side sabotage

 9     this repair work?

10        A.   Whenever there was a breakage on a transmission line, in

11     particular on these two lines that were supplying both the Serbs and the

12     Muslims, if there was a break we would meet with UNPROFOR at the airport

13     and with UNPROFOR's assistance they would agree with the military

14     commands the date and the time when the repair works would be done.  And

15     after that, the Serb and the Muslim teams would go out and carry out the

16     repair work.  And that usually happened along the separation line or in

17     the proximity of the separation line.  These were the so-called physical

18     repairs and they would sometimes take seven to eight days.

19             The system worked as a one-direction supply.  If there is a

20     breakage due to overload, if there is any breakage of devices, these were

21     the situations that could have been rectified more quickly.  However,

22     when we had physical damage, that required much more time.  First we had

23     to agree on the date and time for repair and UNPROFOR would liaise

24     between the two sides and even sometimes between three sides because

25     sometimes the Croats were involved as well and they had to seek

Page 31046

 1     permission.  So it took time.  Even if the damage was not substantial, it

 2     would take five, six, and sometimes even eight days.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, could the witness be asked to focus

 5     on answering the question.  I've refrained until now to raise it, but

 6     he's going a lot further than the question.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So I'll put brief questions and I would ask for brief answers.

10     What was the situation with spare parts during the war?

11        A.   We didn't have enough spare parts, particularly transformer oil,

12     insulators, switches, distribution devices, and protection devices.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted into

15     evidence.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D8618 receives number D2544,

18     Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we briefly look at

20     1D8622.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you tell us what it was that you are reporting the Executive

23     Committee of Vogosca in this letter?

24        A.   Yes, I can do that.  The 110 power transmission Sokolac-Vogosca

25     was not repaired and we were forced to connect to this transmission line

Page 31047

 1     by means of an antenna to 35 kV Pale-Mokro transmission line to build a

 2     35 kV transmission line leading from the village of Poljine and to

 3     install a transformer 35 to 10 kV and 8 megawatt amperes and in that way

 4     we would secure a proper supply of Vogosca and Ilijas with electric power

 5     that was coming from Visegrad.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D8622 receives number D2545,

10     Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please have

12     1D8623.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you explain to the Chamber what this letter of yours means.

15        A.   Well, look, this is from the statute of Elektroprenos and

16     Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska.  Therefore, I had to appoint

17     civilian protection commissioners, and the same situation prevailed in

18     line with the laws that were in force at the time.  Each station had a

19     commissioner and below that you can see what their tasks were.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show these tasks in the

21     English version, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   All of this is based on Article 36 of the Law on National

24     Defence.

25        A.   Yes, yes, and it's in accordance with the statute of

Page 31048

 1     Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D8623 receives number D2546,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 1D8624.  I

 8     just have to apologise for the fact that a wrong English translation is

 9     attached to this document.  1D8624.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber what does this pertain to, this

12     document, basically?

13        A.   This is the minutes of the meeting held at the Sarajevo airport.

14     I see the name of Jacques Perreaux, the French lieutenant-colonel, the BH

15     delegation, and our delegation, and we were discussing the repair works

16     on transmission lines in order to provide as much energy from Kakanj to

17     Sarajevo.

18        Q.   Thank you.  It says that the repair work on the Kakanj-Vogosca

19     transmission line had been cancelled due to military problems.  What does

20     this mean?

21        A.   Probably we were not given approval by both armies to proceed

22     with the repair work because basically all the breakages happen along the

23     separation lines, which required both sides to provide and give

24     approvals, because all these repair teams were a mix.  They were made up

25     of both Serbs and Muslims.

Page 31049

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please pause between

 2     questions and answers.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Interpreters were not able to hear your question

 4     because you were overlapping.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Who is this person in the Serbian delegation under number 1, what

 8     was his position?

 9        A.   Bosco Lemez was a member of the Assembly of the city of Sarajevo.

10     He was an electrical engineer.  We studied together.  And on behalf of

11     the Assembly of the Serbian Sarajevo, he was in charge of utility

12     companies.

13        Q.   Thank you.  How would you assess the Serbian delegation in terms

14     of its composition?

15        A.   Dusko Mijatovic was the technical director of Elektroprenos with

16     a head office in Banja Luka.  Dobro Kovacevic was the director of

17     electrical distribution company that held the Sarajevo, Romanija, and

18     Drina region, covering the area with 35, 10 kV and other low-voltage

19     supplies.  Dragan Kalajdzija used to work for the ministry for energy at

20     Pale.  And Vidoje Magazin was a colonel and this was the only meeting

21     that he attended.  He never appeared again later on.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted temporarily as

24     an MFI'd document, pending the proper translation?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll do so.  We'll mark it for identification.

Page 31050

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D8624 receives number D2547, MFI'd,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

 4     Your Excellencies.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Yes, Mr. Lubura, as you have noted, most part of your evidence

 7     was admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony and now you will

 8     be cross-examined by a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

 9             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

11        Q.   Mr. Lubura, I'd like you to look at a map.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could have 65 ter number 2451 --

13     24251, I'm sorry.

14        Q.   We saw a moment ago the large map, P2542; however, it's quite

15     illegible so I would just like you to look at the map that's coming up on

16     the screen and tell me if this was how the electrical -- the electricity

17     grid was working in -- during the conflict, 1992 to 1995.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could just enlarge it, please.  And again.

19        Q.   Now, we can see here that this is an OSCE map prepared in 2010,

20     but would you agree that this is the same grid that was working during

21     the conflict with the exception of the Bosanski Petrovac-Kljuc

22     transmission line?

23        A.   It's the same map as the one that I provided.  There's no

24     difference.  400 kV, 220 kV, 110 kV, yes, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And we can see from Visegrad the green line going

Page 31051

 1     east into Serbia; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   And we can also -- sorry, and then we can also see the green line

 4     going down from Foca, just below Foca, going into Montenegro, and that's

 5     correct, isn't it?

 6        A.   I'm going to explain this to you.  The red line that passes by

 7     Foca is Lukavica-Buk Bijela transmission line and it is connected with

 8     Montenegro.  It was built before the war.  However, the one leading from

 9     Visegrad to Uzicka Pozega was constructed in the 1990s.

10        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I tender that.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24251 receives number P6035,

15     Your Honours.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   To assist the Chamber in following your evidence, I think if we

18     look at the zoomed-in map which you provided, which is P2542 -- D2542.

19             Now, Mr. Lubura, in 1992, once the confrontation lines were

20     drawn, the substations under BH control were the following, and I think

21     that you've said this already this morning -- this afternoon:

22     Sarajevo 7, which is Buca Potok; Sarajevo 2, which is Veselici;

23     Sarajevo 5, which is Kosevo; Sarajevo 13, which is Skenderija;

24     Sarajevo 14, Otoka; Sarajevo 15, Dobrinja; and Sarajevo 18, Hrasnica or,

25     as is noted on this map, Famos?

Page 31052

 1        A.   Yes, Hrasnica Famos.

 2        Q.   And under the control of the Bosnian Serbs were Sarajevo 10 being

 3     Reljevo?

 4        A.   Reljevo.

 5        Q.   Sarajevo 4 being Vogosca; Sarajevo 8 being Azici; and Sarajevo 20

 6     being Lukavica; and Sarajevo 1 being Blazuj.  That's right?

 7        A.   I'm sorry, Azici were belonging to the Muslim side.  That's

 8     Azici, Sarajevo 8.

 9        Q.   Ah, thank you for that clarification.  In order for electricity

10     to get to the substations within the city of Sarajevo under Bosnian

11     control, it necessarily had to pass through either Sarajevo 1, 4, 20, or

12     10; is that right?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   So electricity had to pass through the Bosnian Serb-controlled

15     substations to get to the city?  You're nodding.  You need to put an

16     affirmative answer on the record "yes."

17        A.   That is correct.  Electrical power could be distributed to

18     BH-controlled or Muslim-controlled substations from Sarajevo 10 or

19     Sarajevo 20.

20        Q.   Or 1 or 4?

21        A.   It -- yes, it was possible, from 4, that is, Vogosca.

22        Q.   And also number 1, Blazuj?

23        A.   Only as far as Famos, two times 110.

24        Q.   Yes.  And if there had been a Bosnian Serb political desire to

25     deny or limit to any -- limit service to any substations in the

Page 31053

 1     Muslim-controlled area of Sarajevo, this could have been accomplished?

 2        A.   Well, let me tell you this.  We received --

 3        Q.   But Mr. -- sorry, Mr. Lubura --

 4        A.   -- electrical power from Muslim sources --

 5        Q.   May I -- that question I think requires a "yes" or a "no" answer.

 6     If there'd been a desire, it could have been accomplished?  It was

 7     technically possible, yes?

 8        A.   It's possible, of course it's quite possible.  But also, they

 9     would immediately disconnect us from the source.  So neither of us would

10     have any electricity.

11        Q.   I want to discuss now some -- I want to move on now to just talk

12     a little bit about your responsibilities.  So as director of the

13     Elektroprenos plant in Ilidza, your responsibilities included the

14     administration and maintenance of the Serb-controlled substations and

15     transmission lines in the Sarajevo area; correct?

16        A.   Yes, under Serb control.  That's right.

17        Q.   You commenced this role starting in August 1992?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And when repairs were needed, it was your company that sent the

20     technicians to carry out the work?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And as you said a short while ago, that -- sometimes alongside

23     UNPROFOR and technicians from the Bosnian side?

24        A.   Repairs were mostly carried out together, at the separation

25     lines, where most of the damage was on the transmission lines.

Page 31054

 1        Q.   And I think you said earlier that if there were areas that were

 2     unsafe, such as ongoing fighting, the military or the police forces could

 3     prevent the technicians from entering the area?

 4        A.   I didn't have any problems at the transmission lines that were

 5     under Serb control, I had no problems either with the military or the

 6     police.  We regularly maintained this and repaired it.  However, at the

 7     separation line, we had to receive the consent of both the Serb and the

 8     Muslim side in order to carry out repairs.

 9        Q.   And you said earlier, I think at page 91, that you had to get

10     approval by the armies required before repairs could be taken out; is

11     that right?

12        A.   Correct, and that's what UNPROFOR would do.  The representatives

13     of UNPROFOR would get the approval both of the Serb army and the Muslim

14     army, and then we would go out into the field together and repair the

15     transmission lines together.

16        Q.   And the Bosnian Serb side did deny access to repair lines, did

17     they not?

18        A.   I personally do not know about that.  That was a matter for

19     UNPROFOR.  They were the ones who were in charge of this operation and

20     then they would inform us that they had received approval and that we

21     could go out and repair what was to be repaired.  That was the duty of

22     UNPROFOR and that was what we had agreed upon at Sarajevo airport.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I note the time --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also get a time-frame for

25     this?  When was it that the Serb army denied this and for what reason?

Page 31055

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I note the time and I -- Mr. Reid

 2     informs me we're sitting until 14.45.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll continue tomorrow.

 4             Mr. Lubura, we'll continue tomorrow.  There's one matter I'd like

 5     to deal with in your absence.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31056

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             The hearing is adjourned.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

16                           December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.