Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31627

 1                           Tuesday, 18 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Yes, good morning,

 7     Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

 9     introduce Mireille Morsink, who is working for her masters in public

10     administration at the university of Leiden who has been with my team for

11     the last month and will be for a while to come.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Very well.

13                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO SALIPUR [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Salipur.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

20        Q.   Mr. Salipur, in your statement at paragraph 8, you say that

21     Crisis Staffs were formed in Serbian municipalities in accordance with a

22     document dated the 26th of April, 1992.  Now, it's right, isn't it, that

23     the Crisis Staff were formed in municipalities by the SDS many months

24     before April 1992?

25        A.   Well, it depends.  Throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, Crisis Staff

Page 31628

 1     were being established, some earlier, others later, depending on how the

 2     situation developed in the field.  In some places it simply wasn't

 3     necessary to have one, depended on the structure of the population, and

 4     also if perhaps certain incidents had already occurred.  So dates are

 5     different in different municipalities.

 6        Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 5 you say that you do not

 7     know the document entitled "Instructions for the activity of the Serbian

 8     people in extraordinary circumstances (variant A and B)."

 9             Now, it's right, isn't it, that that --

10        A.   No.  I've never heard of this variant A and B.  Actually, I

11     hadn't heard of it until I heard about it through the media when this

12     Tribunal started dealing with these matters.  Before that I had never

13     heard of this variant, although I'm some kind of participant in all of

14     these events as far as the Serbian Democratic Party is concerned from

15     when it was founded up until the war.  Although I was close to sources of

16     information in Sarajevo, I never heard of this variant.  I certainly have

17     not heard of it, and I do not know of its existence if it did exist in

18     the first place.

19        Q.   Do you accept that you personally participated in the

20     implementation of instructions received from the SDS Main Board in

21     December 1991?

22        A.   Yes, I did participate, but at the same time, I was the

23     legitimate representative of the people and citizens, because at the

24     first multi-party elections, I was elected a member of the

25     Municipal Assembly.  That was our task, to take care of security as part

Page 31629

 1     of overall life and Crisis Staffs were the result of all of that, as was

 2     everything else.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I call up, please, P5.

 4        Q.   The document that's on the screen in front of you, Mr. Salipur,

 5     states in the top left-hand corner "Serbian Democratic Party,

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina Main Board."  It is dated at the bottom the

 7     19th of December, 1991.  If we turn to the second page, you can see the

 8     foot of the document a reference to variant A, and underneath variant A

 9     you see two words.  Could you read out those two words, please.

10        A.   "And co-operation with all local committees in the area of the

11     municipality."  Is that what you meant, where it says "First Level"?

12        Q.   Yes, the two words "First Level" I want you to keep those in

13     mind.  Now, if we turn to the next page of this document we see a list of

14     tasks numbered 1 to 5, and then if we turn to the next page, tasks go on

15     from 6 to 11, and they stop at 11.  Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  May I call up, please, P2575.

18        Q.   You can see this document is a record of a Crisis Staff meeting

19     held on the premises of the Novo Sarajevo Serbian Democratic Party.  The

20     meeting heard and discussed the materials received from the SDS BH

21     Main Board.  Underneath that you see two words.  Do you see those two

22     words?  Under "SDS BiH."

23        A.   Yes, I see that.  May I explain?

24        Q.   Can you read out those two words, please.

25        A.   "Material received from the Main Board of the

Page 31630

 1     Serb Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 2        Q.   And the next two words.

 3        A.   "First Level."

 4        Q.   That's the exactly the same expression as you saw in the previous

 5     document, isn't it?

 6        A.   Yes.  I understand, but in this document there is absolutely no

 7     mention of any variant A or variant B.  "First level" is one word.  As

 8     for variant A and B, I don't know what those words mean.  I have to

 9     correct you.  This is a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the

10     Municipal Board, municipal.  So that is the lowest-ranking cell in the

11     party, if you can put it that way.  We received this from the Main Board

12     of the SDS.  We received the complete material, and that is what you

13     previously put to me.  You put this to me.  I really don't see.  After

14     all, if I can remember correctly --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpret did not understand the rest of

16     the sentence.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 12 it says that "we did

18     receive," where the witness said, "we did not receive."

19             MR. GAYNOR:

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you receive material from the Main Board of the

21     SDS?

22        A.   We received instructions on activity which is a succinct part of

23     the material that you put here, and as for that page and mentioning

24     variant A and B, I mean the first time I heard of this variant A and B

25     was -- well, I know as far as looking at the situation, you know, first

Page 31631

 1     level and things like that, and then this second one was envisaged, but

 2     then that was materialised through the war, and then there was no need

 3     for the first one anyway.

 4        Q.   Now, in this document you will see there are items numbered 1, 2,

 5     3, there is no item 4 or 5, and then there are items 6, 7, 8, 9, and 11.

 6     Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, your name in full appears under item 11, and the name

 9     Salipur appears under item 6.  So you were responsible for implementing

10     items 6 and 11, weren't you?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, you worked with Radomir Neskovic, didn't you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Neskovic is --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Gaynor,

16     but we need to clarify this a bit more precisely.

17             Mr. Salipur, this is your answer to the question of Mr. Gaynor

18     asking about this document which is in front of you now.  I read out the

19     answer as translated:

20             "This is a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Board,

21     municipal.  So that's the lowest-ranking cell in the party, if you can

22     put that way.  We received this from the Main Board of the SDS.  We

23     received the complete material, and that is what you previously put to

24     me."

25             Then -- and that was your answer.  Mr. Karadzic stated that the

Page 31632

 1     sentence "we received the complete material" should be translated as "we

 2     didn't receive the complete material."  But before that when you are

 3     saying about the meeting of the lowest-ranking cell, you did say that you

 4     received this from the Main Board of the SDS.

 5             So what I understand from your further answer to Mr. Gaynor, you

 6     received some -- some material in a succinct form from the Main Board,

 7     but you didn't receive the complete set of document.  Is that what you're

 8     going -- what you said?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.  We received

10     extracts from that document.  If you look at all of this, this is some

11     kind of instruction as to how to act in some kind of situation that crops

12     up.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  You received the extracts from that

14     document.  Did you see those extracts yourself?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.  The conduct and

16     work in the party was such that all material that arrived, when meetings

17     would be held, the person chairing the meeting would read out a document,

18     and then there would be a debate, discussion, and certain conclusions

19     would be reached.  Other members absolutely do not look at the document,

20     only the official that works for the Municipal Board.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Then how did you know that only the extracts had

22     been received at the time instead of the whole set of documents?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the person who was chairing

24     the meeting tells us and says, We received instructions on further

25     activity in a deteriorated critical situation, and does not communicate

Page 31633

 1     the entire document.  He communicates to us what he received.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Back to you, Mr. Gaynor.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Witness, you can see this is dated the 23rd of December, 1991,

 5     which is four days after the variant A and B document.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, Radomir Neskovic gave evidence before this Trial Chamber,

 8     the reference is T14353.  He told this Trial Chamber:

 9             "This document is not a forgery.  It is a document of the

10     Crisis Staff of Novo Sarajevo.  Based on the contents, it is variant A.

11     So variant A is being applied here."

12             Do you accept that this document is, in fact, implementing

13     variant A of the variant A and B instructions even if you personally had

14     not seen a copy of the variant A and B instructions?

15        A.   Number one, Mr. Radomir Neskovic at the time of all of this did

16     not participate personally as I did, and he certainly could not have

17     determined which came -- what came as a result of what, and his name

18     would be here among the other names.  It would be on the other documents,

19     I mean of members of the Municipal Board and thing like that, and I don't

20     know how come he judged it that way.  I'm saying again that this is the

21     first level of conduct on the basis of instructions.  We received

22     instructions on how we should behave in the situation that prevailed at

23     that time.  The situation was already rather chaotic.  Different things

24     were happening, incidents.  There were all sorts of songs that were being

25     sung that the Croatian borders on the Drina.  There were also the green

Page 31634

 1     flags, and we had to act in some way so that there would not be greater

 2     unrest.  We had to see how we should act.  There is nothing bad about

 3     these duties of ours.  There are no intentions or preparations for war.

 4        Q.   Now, you accept that the name Radomir Neskovic does appear on

 5     this document under item 8?

 6        A.   Well, now I do notice his name, but now whether this has to do

 7     with the one that I have in mind, I'm not sure.  I know that later after

 8     the war broke out he took over the Crisis Staff of the municipality, and

 9     he was appointed by the Government of Republika Srpska.  That I do know.

10     As for this pre-war period, I don't know that he participated.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I call up, please, 65 ter 01477.

12        Q.   As you can see, this is a record of a Crisis Staff meeting held

13     on the 25th of December, 1991, two days after the previous Crisis Staff

14     meeting.  This document lists a series of tasks which are assigned.

15     Under item 3 we can see that a task has been assigned to you.  Do you see

16     that?

17        A.   Number 3?  I see that.  I don't know what you're interested in.

18     What you'd want me to explain about this task that I was entrusted with,

19     what it had to do with or what I was supposed to do in relation to this

20     task.

21        Q.   You accepted the Crisis Staff was issuing instructions to various

22     members on the 25th of December, 1991?

23        A.   Yes.  Number 1, the Crisis Staff consists of ten members of the

24     secretariat of the Municipal Board, and the others are from the

25     Serbian Democratic Party, and they worked as appointed officials in the

Page 31635

 1     municipality; that is to say the Crisis Staff had a mixed composition,

 2     and it cannot be considered to be an independent body.  It could not have

 3     done anything independently without the Municipal Board knowing about

 4     this and the officials who worked in the municipality.

 5        Q.   And the Crisis Staff, when you say it was not an independent

 6     body, it was receiving instructions from above, wasn't it?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  That's why I said that the composition was mixed,

 8     that it wasn't some kind of separate institution or separate

 9     organisation.

10        Q.   Now, you said at the beginning of your evidence the Crisis Staffs

11     had been formed pursuant to a document from April 1992.  Do you accept on

12     the basis of this document and the previous document we saw that the

13     Crisis Staff was in fact formed at least as early as December 1991?

14             THE ACCUSED:  I think it's misleading.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you take up the issue in your

17     re-examination.  The witness has already answered.

18             Shall we move on?

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  Thank you.

20        Q.   I'd just like to clarify.  Witness, when you said, "Yes," you

21     were saying yes to my question; is that correct?

22        A.   Well, the question was whether the Crisis Staff had been

23     established already towards the end -- the end -- the end of 1991, and we

24     have to Crisis Staff that appears in some documents in the beginning of

25     the war.  Those two -- I mean the composition of persons in these two

Page 31636

 1     Crisis Staffs are quite different and the tasks are quite different,

 2     because the war had broken out and many members moved away.  They went in

 3     different directions.  So if we can refer to this as continuity of work,

 4     it did exist up to a point but with different people in a different

 5     situation, because the war had already started, whereas this was the

 6     pre-war situation.  I can tell you that even if we had not received any

 7     instructions from the Main Staff, we would have done all of these same

 8     things at the Municipal Board.  We would have carried out all these

 9     tasks, because they were not aimed against anyone, not aimed against

10     other peoples, just to ensure greater safety and security, more order,

11     sufficient food supplies if a war breaks out for persons who had not had

12     sufficient care, and also in individual homes and families so that if a

13     war were to break out there wouldn't be famine, a breakdown law and

14     order.  Then also there should be lists of the disabled and the sickly so

15     that they could be assisted.  No one knew what kind of war would start

16     and when.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I would like to tender 65 ter 01477.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will receive it.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  But, Mr. Gaynor, Dr. Karadzic, I think that we

20     should have this matter clarified before we go further.  Now, the

21     question you asked, Mr. Gaynor, some time ago was this:

22             "Do you accept that on the basis of this document and previous

23     documents that the Crisis Staff was, in fact, formed as early as

24     December 1991?"

25             Now, at that point, Mr. Karadzic, you had objected to the

Page 31637

 1     question on the ground that it was misleading.  Am I right?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency.

 3             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, was this matter addressed at all, Mr. Gaynor?

 4     Do you recollect that?

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I asked the witness to clarify if he had

 6     answered yes to my question.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  And he gave this answer, this long answer.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE BAIRD:  Is this an answer to the question?

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Well, I can show him one final document and then I

11     can return to the point.

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much, indeed.  Yes, I'd appreciate

13     this.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.  Could we call up, please, P2583.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Before doing that, shall we give the number for this

16     exhibit?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Document 1477 receives

18     number P6055, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED:  Excellencies, may I in English explain why it is

20     misleading so that --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue?

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  Let us proceed, Mr. Gaynor, for the time being,

23     shall we?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Now, on the document -- on the screen in front of you,

Page 31638

 1     Mr. Witness, you see a record of the minutes of the Crisis Staff staff

 2     meeting held in Lukavica community on the 29th of January, 1992, among

 3     those attending is Radomir Neskovic.  Under item 4 it states:

 4             "Zdravko Salipur has fully completed the task relating to the

 5     municipal vehicles."

 6             Do you see that, Mr. Witness?

 7        A.   I do.  I do, and I can briefly explain something about this task

 8     that says that I in a very brief period of time was the only one to carry

 9     out my task.  My task at the time had to do with the following:  There

10     was a shortage of fuel for vehicles at the time, and the municipality and

11     the town Assembly issued special coupons so you couldn't buy fuel with

12     money.  Since I worked in the municipality in order to provide fuel,

13     obtain fuel and coupons for vehicles, fuel that came from Novo Sarajevo,

14     and I knew how we could work as an institution, as a political party, in

15     accordance with the law, and we could also obtain some of those coupons

16     in accordance with the law and we could use them for fuel.  So this was

17     my task.  I carried it out expeditiously.  There were no ill intentions

18     when this was done.  Mr. Radomir Neskovic had some duties in the

19     municipality.  He was the director for the housing fund that the

20     municipality has, and in relation to that, he was probably involved in

21     this issue in case special accommodation was required.

22        Q.   Now, under item 1 it says that stations are to be taken over by

23     Milenko Jovanovic and Zdravko Salipur on behalf of the Crisis Staff.  Can

24     you tell us what that is a reference to?

25        A.   At the time, there were no mobile phones.  As the

Page 31639

 1     Municipal Board, we obtained a number of small radio -- hand-held radio

 2     devices, ones that radio ham operators use so that individual members

 3     could at any point in time, if they weren't somewhere where there was a

 4     land-line, maintain contact.  They were distributed to some members of

 5     the Municipal Boards, and then we obtained information according to which

 6     they just call each other, tell jokes to each other, speak to each other

 7     by using these devices, so we decided to take them back from them, and

 8     later we were to see to whom we might distribute these devices.

 9        Q.   Now, I have shown you this morning a record of a Crisis Staff

10     meeting held on the premises of the Novo Sarajevo SDS to discuss

11     materials received from the SDS Main Board.  That meeting was on the

12     23rd of December, 1991.  I showed you another document of a Crisis Staff

13     meeting held on the 25th of December, 1991.  I showed you a third

14     document which are the minutes of the Crisis Staff meeting held on the

15     29th of January, 1991.  On the basis of those documents, you must accept

16     that the SDS had formed a Crisis Staff in your municipality at least as

17     early as December 1991.

18        A.   Well, if you noticed, in one of the documents there are some

19     members from the staff who assigned tasks to co-ordinate activities

20     between the Crisis Staff of the SDS and the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21     So in other political parties there were already Crisis Staffs in

22     existence.  They had been established before we established ours.  We

23     named the coordinators in documents so that they could be interlocutors.

24     This was done so that we could calm down the situation as much as

25     possible to defuse tension, if you will.

Page 31640

 1        Q.   One final question.  You must accept, yes or no, that the SDS did

 2     establish the Crisis Staff in Novo Sarajevo municipality at least as

 3     early as December 1991?  Yes or no?

 4        A.   Well, yes, but in the context that I've mentioned in my answers,

 5     all of my answers, have a look at one of the earlier documents where it

 6     says that we have a coordinator for contact with other Crisis Staffs.

 7        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 5, you say that Radovan Karadzic,

 8     President of the SDS, attended the pre-war sessions of your SDS Municipal

 9     Board meetings.  About how many did he attend?

10        A.   Since the Novo Sarajevo municipality is essential one in the town

11     of Sarajevo and the town consisted of eight municipalities, apart from

12     the Municipal Board there was a working group called the town board,

13     because the authorities in Sarajevo had a town Assembly and

14     Municipal Assembly, so no deputies in the Municipal Assemblies and the

15     town Assemblies.  The headquarters of the town board of the

16     Serbian Democratic Party was in Novo Sarajevo and that was also the case

17     for the Municipal Board.  President Karadzic attended meetings of the

18     town board more frequently, because you had deputies, representatives

19     from all the town, from all the eight municipalities, one could say, and

20     sometimes he would also attend our meetings of the Municipal Board.

21     Unfortunately, we often had internal tensions, and he had to come to calm

22     us down so we could solve our problems, and so on and so forth.  So I

23     don't know how many times that was, in fact, but he had a lot of duties

24     to perform, but at least ten times from the elections, from the time the

25     elects were held, up until the time when the war broke out.

Page 31641

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said "reconcile," not

 2     "calm down."  And the witness said that there was co-operation with the

 3     Crisis Staffs of the HDZ and the SDA, and SDA isn't there.  He said "to

 4     reconcile us."

 5             MR. GAYNOR:

 6        Q.   Now, at paragraph 6, you note that when the war broke out,

 7     Dr. Karadzic left Sarajevo for Pale.  Do you accept that Dr. Karadzic

 8     remained in close contact with members of the Municipal Board, the

 9     SDS Municipal Board, of Novo Sarajevo while he was in Pale and after he

10     had moved to Pale?

11        A.   Well, it seems -- he didn't go there on his own.  All our

12     political leadership, all our party leadership from Sarajevo went there.

13     Pale isn't very far from Novo Sarajevo municipality which had its own

14     territory.  Life had to go on.  It was necessary to co-operate, to

15     establish the authorities of government.  This was all done.  And to do

16     that, naturally he had to have contact with our municipality and people

17     who acted as leaders in the municipality.

18             During the first month when the war broke out, as soon as the

19     government had been formed in the territory of Republika Srpska, the

20     party's work was frozen for one year.  That was the decision, because one

21     wanted to have unity prevail amongst the people, and one wanted to

22     prepare a better defence within the war.

23        Q.   Do you know Rajko Bajic, Dragan Vucetic and Slavko Aleksic?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Were they all members of the SDS Municipal Board of

Page 31642

 1     Novo Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Aleksic, yes.  And Rajko Bajic was a prominent member of the

 3     party, but I don't think he was a member of the Municipal Board.  I'm not

 4     certain about that.  And Dragan Vucetic, yes, he was a member of the

 5     Municipal Board and he worked in Novo Sarajevo municipality.  He was an

 6     urban inspector.  That was the position he held, and he had a permanent

 7     job there.

 8        Q.   And do you accept that you remained in contact with other members

 9     of the Municipal Board of Sarajevo and with the leadership in Pale?

10        A.   Do you have me in mind or the Municipal Board as a whole?

11        Q.   The Municipal Board as a whole.

12        A.   Sir, I lived at the other end of town in relation to the

13     territory of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo, or it was that

14     municipality when the war broke out, and to be more specific in the

15     settlement of Pofalica.  It was war.  I had contact in relation to the

16     party, and so on and so forth, up until the beginning of the war, and

17     from then onwards I wasn't free to move around.  My neighbourhood was

18     mainly inhabited by Serbs.  We organised ourselves, organised guards as

19     well so as to avoid unpleasant scenes.  Unfortunately, this didn't last

20     for long.  On the 16th of May, 1992, the Muslim forces attacked our

21     settlement, our neighbourhood, or, rather, one of the enclaves as one

22     might call it, and on that occasion I was seriously wounded.  I went away

23     for treatment.  I returned from treatment in Belgrade late in the autumn

24     of 1992.  So as for the other events from the 4th of April up until

25     October, did I not participate in those events.  All I know is what I

Page 31643

 1     know through rumours, but I wasn't a direct participant in the events,

 2     and I know nothing about them.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I call up please 65 ter 01463.

 4        Q.   This is a document dated the 8th of August, 1992.  I accept that

 5     you were in Belgrade at that time.

 6             Now, in this document which is signed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic,

 7     you can read it for yourself, sir, but I think we can see that

 8     Dr. Karadzic is summoning Rajko Bajic, Dragan Vucetic and Slavko Aleksic

 9     to report to him in person.

10        A.   The date is the 8th of August, 912.  It doesn't say 1992.  It

11     says 912 here, but the translation in English says "Sarajevo, the

12     8th of August, 1992."

13        Q.   Yes, very well observed, Mr. Salipur.  I think we can accept

14     that's a typographical error and it should read 8th of the 8th, 1992.

15             Now, do you -- do you agree that President Karadzic --

16        A.   I don't understand.  It says Sarajevo, the 8th of August, 1992.

17     President Karadzic in August 1992 wasn't in Sarajevo.  He was in Pale.

18     It should say Pale and then you should have the date.  I don't know.  I

19     never heard that they had authority of any kind.  See how the

20     municipality was working.  As far as I know, Milenko Jovanovic in that

21     part of Sarajevo was seriously wounded in both legs in Vraca, and he

22     spent more time being treated than I did, almost a year.  So this is

23     completely illogical to me.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has the possibility of the year

25     being 1991 been considered?  There should be a 2 under the number,

Page 31644

 1     because we put a dot after numbers.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would sooner be like that,

 3     because I know that they received something from you in 1991.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:

 5        Q.   In any event, setting the date of this document to one side for a

 6     moment, you accept that Dr. Karadzic was in personal contact with

 7     Slavko Aleksic and the two other men named in this document?

 8        A.   In your earlier question as to whether I knew Bajic Rajko,

 9     Slavko Aleksic, I said yes, Aleksic was a member of the Municipal Board.

10     Vucetic, Dragan was a member of the Municipal Board and Bajic, Rajko was

11     a prominent member of the party.  I am not sure.  I don't think he was in

12     the Municipal Board.  As I had mentioned earlier on I know that we had

13     some tension, some disagreements, and so on, about certain matters, and

14     in 1991 on one occasion President Karadzic authorised them to carry out

15     an inventory of the equipment because there was a dispute, an internal

16     dispute.  It was said that someone had spent money in an inappropriate

17     manner, something like that, and Rajko Bajic is an economist, I think.

18     Mr. Jovanovic, he worked in the Ministry of the Interior, didn't he?

19     They wanted to deal with the matter.  I think the document might have to

20     do with this and I believe that it was in 1991.  It says an inventory of

21     all the equipment or materiel.

22        Q.   You told us that Aleksic was a member of the Municipal Board.

23     Aleksic was also a Vojvoda who led volunteer units of the Serbian Chetnik

24     detachment, wasn't he?

25        A.   When I returned from my treatment I lived in Grbavica, a hundred

Page 31645

 1     metres from the demarcation line which was being secured by a company

 2     under the command of Slavko Aleksic.  He was a regular member of the

 3     Army of Republika Srpska in terms of establishment.  He had a bit of a

 4     beard and was called a Vojvoda.  Well, that's a totally different matter.

 5     But he wasn't a volunteer of any kind.  You will find his name in the

 6     documents of the Municipal Board when the party was established, from the

 7     time the party was established up until the time the war broke out and

 8     his pre-war address was at the location where the demarcation line was,

 9     where he was the company commander in Gornji Kovacici.  So he wasn't a

10     volunteer of any kind.  He was a local inhabitant.  He was born from

11     Bileca.  But he left Bileca and came to Sarajevo at least ten years prior

12     to the war.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to have to move on because I'm under some

14     time pressure.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I tender the document on the screen, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED:  No, no.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1463 receives P6056, Your Honours.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, P5035.

21        Q.   Document which is come up is dated the 13th of May, 1993.  It's

22     an order of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.  And we can see under item 1 of

23     this document that Slavko Aleksic is named, and there is a reference to

24     his activity as commander of the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik Detachment.  Do

25     you see that?

Page 31646

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I also call up, please, 65 ter number 23871.

 3        Q.   The next document is a receipt dated the 5th of January, 1994 -

 4     you will see it in a moment - signed by Vojvoda Slavko Aleksic,

 5     confirming receipt of documents from RS MUP Ilidza SJB.  Do you see that,

 6     Mr. Witness?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you accept, therefore, that Aleksic was a commander of the

 9     Novo Sarajevo Chetnik Detachment and received weapons from the

10     Bosnian Serb police force?

11        A.   Let me repeat what I said.  I'm claiming with full responsibility

12     that in spite of everything that you have known, in spite of all these

13     documents that you have shown, the unit under the command of

14     Slavko Aleksic in the war was a company that was part -- I'm not sure

15     whether it was the 1st or 2nd Battalion.  For a time it was the Sarajevo

16     and later the Romanija Motorised Brigade.  Also in this document where it

17     says "Received," Pajic, Veljko.  He was also a member of the

18     Army of Republika Srpska and a company commander at a demarcation line

19     which continued from the zone which was under the control of

20     Slavko Aleksic.  And let me go back to what I said.  From the time the

21     party was established up until the war broke out, he was a member of the

22     Municipal Board of the SDS.  Well, Chetnik detachment and so on and so

23     forth, that has nothing to do with it.  You can see under whose command

24     he operated.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.

Page 31647

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you ask the witness to read out the stamp?

 2     Can we zoom in the stamp we can see at the bottom of the document.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:

 4        Q.   Are you able to read any of those stamps, Mr. Witness?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The stamps which we see at the bottom of the

 6     document.  Can you -- yes.  English translation says -- it reads

 7     "Vojvoda Slavko Aleksic."  Do you agree?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with the translation.  I

 9     can see these letters, but it's not clear to me that a stamp could only

10     have the name of a -- of a man.  What is he?  What's his position?  Which

11     organ does he belong to?  It's the first time in my 65 years that I've

12     seen a stamp with just a first and last name and nothing else.  Have a

13     look above.  "Goods received by.  Goods issued by."  Slavko Aleksic's

14     name doesn't appear there.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll receive this.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23871 receives number P6057,

17     Your Honours.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you very much.

19        Q.   Now, in your evidence yesterday -- I'm moving to a separate

20     topic, Mr. Witness.  This concerns the Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital.

21     In your evidence yesterday you said at page 31623:

22             "All the media, all the propaganda that I heard stated that at

23     the beginning of the war we shelled the maternity war and destroyed it."

24             And you went on to confirm that you were talking about the

25     maternity ward at Zehra Muidovic hospital.  Then you were asked by Dr.

Page 31648

 1     Karadzic, "Did we destroy that maternity ward?"  And you answered, "No,

 2     it wasn't destroyed."

 3             Now, do you accept that the Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital was

 4     not destroyed at the time that your son became a father but that it was

 5     later shelled and destroyed?

 6        A.   First of all, it wasn't my son who became a father.  I became a

 7     father.  I had a son.  That is the first correction.  My son was born on

 8     the 20th of April in that maternity ward.  My wife used to work in the

 9     maternity ward for 14 years before the war.  Until that day, not a single

10     pane of glass was shattered on the building, let alone that the building

11     was shelled.  People worked there safely.  I took my wife there to

12     deliver and picked her up three days later.  Due to security reasons,

13     because the maternity ward was close to the separation line during the

14     war, it was transferred to another hospital, and in the maternity ward

15     UNPROFOR and other international forces were billeted.  Was it the SFOR?

16     I don't know.  They kept changing their name.  So it wasn't shelled, and

17     especially not while they were there and not before either.  Where would

18     they have been billeted if it had been destroyed?  That's the real

19     situation.

20        Q.   I want to focus on the period after you had been transferred to

21     Belgrade for medical treatment, and I want to put it to you that while

22     you were away from Sarajevo, the shell -- the maternity hospital was

23     shelled and in fact was destroyed.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we call up, please, 65 ter 24365.

25        Q.   This is a story of the Associated Press.  Now, Mr. Witness, it's

Page 31649

 1     only available in the English language so I'll tell you what it is.  The

 2     title is "In Sarajevo, the hospital is a dangerous place."  It's dated

 3     the 16th of August, 1992, and in the fourth paragraph it says and I

 4     quote:

 5             "Already the Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital located near the

 6     front line of fighting between Serbian and Bosnian forces has been

 7     destroyed.  During the fighting, three babies - two in

 8     incubators - died."

 9             Now, do you accept that by 16th of August, 1992, the

10     Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital had been destroyed?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is asked to speculate

12     because the witness stated he wasn't there at the time.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there at the time, but I

14     think this is mere propaganda.

15             MR. GAYNOR:

16        Q.   So you're suggesting that the Associated Press is acting as a

17     propaganda organ for the Bosnian government.  Is that your position?

18     Mr. Witness, you can answer the question.

19        A.   You see, I didn't quite understand, because you were speaking in

20     a low key, but there were two babies, some in incubators and other people

21     who were hurt.  How come they were hurt whereas none of the staff taking

22     care of the babies were wounded?  I guess they didn't flee leaving the

23     babies behind.  This is a propaganda report, nothing more.  I'm simply

24     using my logic.  And I'm not saying this because I was present.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to move to a video.  There are four

Page 31650

 1     extracts, and they'll run for a total of about two minutes and 20

 2     seconds.  Before we play that I'd like to tender the Associated Press

 3     article.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, the Chamber is of the view that given

 6     the fact that the relevant part of the document has been read out and

 7     reflected in full in the transcript, it's not necessary to receive it.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  Thank you, Mr. President.  The video is

 9     taken from radio television Bosnia and Herzegovina.  These are four

10     extracts, so for the sake of the record, I'll read them out as we play

11     them.  The first is from 3 minutes and 41 seconds to 4 minutes and

12     25 seconds.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are reading out the

15     transcript received from the Prosecution:

16              "Srecko Simic:  We survived a very difficult night - the night

17     for which I still cannot believe could happen in a civilised world.  The

18     horrors that our pregnant women, our child-bearing women, our mothers,

19     our newly-born babies, our ... the female and male patients of our

20     clinic."

21             MR. GAYNOR:  The second extract is from 5 minutes and 6 seconds

22     to 5 minutes and 26 seconds.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] The Sarajevo maternity ward,

25     Zehra Muidovic today."

Page 31651

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  The third extract is 6 minutes and 28 seconds to

 2     7 minutes and 6 seconds.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Unknown man 2:  There are some

 4     over here where the breast-feeding women are.  These are the babies from

 5     the pediatrics."

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get a time reference?

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Unknown man 1:  Take footage of

 9     this over here."

10             MR. GAYNOR:  The time reference is -- we believe this is from the

11     27th of May, 1992, for shelling on the night of the 26th of May, 1992.

12     Third extract is from -- sorry, excuse me.  The fourth extract is from

13     7 minutes and 50 seconds to 8 minutes and 28 seconds.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Unknown man 2:  It's a lucky thing

16     that it did not start burning.

17              "Unknown man 3:  It did start burning, but it was extinguished.

18              "Unknown man 3:  Here, this part over here.  Take a footage of

19     this chaos.  You see this here which was burnt?  You can take footage

20     from here."

21             MR. GAYNOR:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I put it to you that during the period you were

23     receiving hospital treatment in Belgrade the Zehra Muidovic maternity

24     hospital was in fact shelled, and you are not in a position to exclude

25     the possibility that the VRS shelled the Zehra Muidovic maternity

Page 31652

 1     hospital.

 2        A.   My statement I depicted the true events.  As for the propaganda

 3     that the maternity ward was shelled at the very beginning of the war and

 4     that my son was born on the 20th of April -- well, for the first period

 5     of the war, the maternity ward operated normally.  I was wounded on the

 6     16th of May, 1992, and transferred to Belgrade for treatment where I

 7     spent five months up.  Until the 16th of May, I claim that there was no

 8     shelling.  I was following the events in Sarajevo.  I'm not certain about

 9     the period later.  It is possible that it was destroyed when they moved

10     out because of the immediate danger.  I know this person who gave the

11     statement and the footage, Professor Simic.

12             Mr. Prosecutor, why don't you find out where Mr. Simic is now and

13     when he left Sarajevo?  Did he provide this statement under coercion?  I

14     have other information, because I know that man well.  I have known him

15     for ten years.  It wasn't easy for him to be in Sarajevo.

16        Q.   Now, from your evidence two things arise.  First of all, you

17     cannot exclude the possibility that the VRS shelled this hospital after

18     the 16th of May, 1992, can you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The second thing is --

21        A.   But I have my doubts, which I have expressed.

22        Q.   And the second thing is on the basis of the footage you've seen,

23     you cannot exclude the possibility that the VRS shelled the

24     Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital while there were patients in that

25     hospital, including newborn babies?

Page 31653

 1        A.   In any case, I exclude that possibility.  In my view, the only

 2     possibility is that it was shelled perhaps the buildings of the maternity

 3     ward were shelled.  When they left they went to the Kosevo Hospital.  In

 4     my statement I said it was close to the separation line where it was

 5     dangerous in any case.  It is possible that after that the building was

 6     used, and I had said in a previous statement that it was at an elevation.

 7     It was a vantage point.  And perhaps when it was abandoned it was used by

 8     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and perhaps that is why there were shells

 9     flying overhead occasionally hitting the building itself.  That would be

10     my final say on this topic.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I have no further questions.  I'd like to tender the

12     four extracts, Mr. President.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  On what basis?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, your Excellencies,

16     this witness was not there at the time and cannot confirm anything.

17             Second of all, we do not have a clear time reference.  We see

18     that this was edited material created on different days.  This is

19     definitely propaganda material put together by the Sarajevo Television.

20             Finally, we heard Dr. Pejic testify who said that the same

21     person, Dr. Simic, handed over the hospital quite early on to the

22     authorities and that they went to Kosevo.

23             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, can I have the 65 ter number again,

24     Mr. Gaynor?

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

Page 31654

 1             JUDGE KWON:  For this video.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  The 65 ter number is 40171A.  I should say that the

 3     video is available as V000-0351 and we could play far more extracts from

 4     this video if necessary.  We can certainly make it available to the

 5     Trial Chamber.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  You agree this is an edited version of Sarajevo --

 7     from Sarajevo Television?

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  We agree it was broadcast on Radio Television

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, I believe.  Now the footage would have been edited

10     prior to being broadcast, yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will give its ruling after the break.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies, a few

17     questions.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Salipur, at the time when the Serb

20     municipality of Novo Sarajevo was constituted where were you?  When was

21     it constituted, in April, on the 10th or the 12th, something like that?

22        A.   At the Assembly session when people were elected, that was at the

23     beginning of the war.  Is that the one you have in mind?

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   At that moment in time, whoever was there in terms of deputies

Page 31655

 1     and committee members -- well, people were trying to set up civilian

 2     authorities as quickly as possible, so that session was held in the

 3     Lukavica municipal -- local commune.  Dr. Prijic was appointed

 4     Assembly speaker, and Mr. Radan was President of the Executive Board.  I

 5     wasn't present, but later on in my political work I came across that --

 6     those documents.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know, then, whether the municipality

 8     established a Crisis Staff as a state organ as opposed to it being a

 9     party organ?

10        A.   I can't say anything precisely.  The Crisis Staff -- well,

11     Neskovic was in charge of it.  It's not clear to me.  It didn't have the

12     role of the Crisis Staff as we discussed it.  It was completely -- a

13     completely new thing.

14        Q.   Okay.  We won't pursue that since you were not there.  It was

15     suggested to you that the Crisis Staff received instructions from above.

16     Did the party Crisis Staff receive instructions from the Main Board or

17     from its Municipal Board?

18        A.   From its Municipal Board.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that -- well, when did the SDA and HDZ

20     establish their Crisis Staff compared to the SDS?

21        A.   I can't say precisely, but definitely before the SDS Crisis Staff

22     was established.  That is why we tasked our people on the Crisis Staff,

23     two people in particular, to co-ordinate work and communicate with the

24     Crisis Staffs of the other two parties.  It is in the minutes of the

25     Crisis Staff meeting.  People are known, those who were tasked with that.

Page 31656

 1     So they must have established their staffs before.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  During that period before the outbreak of the war,

 3     were you involved in this or were you doing anything covertly that would

 4     be hidden from the other parties and the public?

 5        A.   I think everything we did was undertaking obligations and it was

 6     no secret.  It wasn't possible to do anything in secret.  All of the

 7     organs were still mixed in terms of composition.  If the head of a

 8     department was of one ethnicity and his deputy of another, well, how

 9     could it be secret then?  That's as far as the municipal authorities go.

10     As for party organs, everyone was cautious trying to gather as much

11     information on the other side as possible.  It was impossible to keep

12     anything hidden or to act covertly.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When the war broke out, well you were not there from

14     the start, but when you arrived in the fall of 1992, what was the

15     situation like in terms of telephone communication in Sarajevo between

16     Pale and Novo Sarajevo and in general?  How did the telephone network

17     operate?

18        A.   Well, the grid was not in the best of condition in terms of the

19     town of Sarajevo which was controlled by Muslim forces.  There were no

20     telephone lines that could be used to communicate with Pale, only a few,

21     but it was very difficult, because the telephone network was established

22     in a different way before the war.  It went through the main city

23     switchboard and then to Pale, and later on there were only a few lines

24     left going to Pale and they were constantly overcrowded.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Where was the main town switchboard in Sarajevo?

Page 31657

 1        A.   In Novo Sarajevo at Dolac Malta across the street from the

 2     municipal building of Novo Sarajevo before the war and close to the

 3     Catholic church, if you remember.

 4        Q.   Who controlled that area when the war broke out?

 5        A.   From day one to the last one, it was controlled by the

 6     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did they leave your telephone lines at your disposal?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You were shown my decision to carry out an inventory

10     or create an inventory list of party property, and it was suggested that

11     I was in indirect contact with Slavko Aleksic.  In principle, was it

12     necessary to be in contact with each and every person if a decision like

13     that was to be issued to the Municipal Board?

14        A.   Mr. President, before that decision you attended a meeting of

15     ours.  I believe I spoke at that meeting, asking you to reconcile our

16     differences within the Municipal Board.  There were mutual accusations at

17     the time.  After the meeting, you appointed three of them as members of

18     the Municipal Board to make an inventory list so that all doubts would be

19     removed that the people had.  Money was involved, including membership

20     fees of party members, voluntary contributions.  It was about money for

21     the most part and that's where people begin to argue the easiest.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salipur.  I ask this reluctantly, but I wanted to

23     ask you about your opinion or your knowledge of me as a person and a

24     party and State leader.

25        A.   It is difficult for me to explain.  It would take a long time.

Page 31658

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  While it may be relevant, how does

 2     it arise from the cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it was suggested

 4     that I was in personal communication, that I issued instructions, that I

 5     meddled with the work of the Municipal Board and that nothing could go

 6     ahead without my knowledge.  It was all suggested by my learned friend

 7     Mr. Gaynor.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But your question was formulated in a more general

 9     way.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll narrow it down.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Salipur, according to your knowledge, what was the nature of

14     my activities vis-a-vis your municipality, the party, and the period

15     before and during the war?

16        A.   In my statement, in the paragraph I mentioned this:  When you

17     came to visit and when we could see what was happening in the area of the

18     former Yugoslavia, you were very optimistic that there would be no war in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially not in Sarajevo.  You encouraged us and

20     you enjoyed a lot of respect, and whenever you came to attend a meeting

21     or were there informally, we were always very happy to have you.  You

22     never seemed abrupt, wilful, or too critical or too stern.  If you did

23     criticise it was always with the aim of improving the situation.  You

24     were always telling us that things could be done better.  You were a

25     proponent of people not having several positions.  You were against

Page 31659

 1     double hatting.  You kept saying that people should not be in the board

 2     and in party, and I liked that in particular.  I would have a lot to say

 3     about that.  I could go on for days.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salipur.  I have no further questions of you.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Salipur, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of

 7     the Chamber, I thank you for coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are

 8     free to go, but we'll rise all together.

 9             We'll have a break for half an hour.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, may I introduce a new

16     member of our team.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We have with us today

19     Nadja Hayman Jelenkovic of Serbian Chinese dissent from Hong Kong.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  SVETOZAR STANIC

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 31660

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Stanic.  Please be seated and make

 2     yourself comfortable.

 3             Before you proceed, Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber will now issue its

 4     oral ruling on the admission of 65 ter 4017A.

 5             Having considered the parties' submissions, the Chamber is of the

 6     view that the provenance and the date of the video had not been

 7     sufficiently established for the purpose of admission.  The Chamber

 8     further notes that the witness was not able to further comment on this

 9     point or on any other matter depicted in the video.  The Chamber will

10     therefore not admit 65 ter 4017A into evidence.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Stanic.

15        A.   Good day, Mr. President.

16        Q.   I would kindly ask you to speak slowly as I should.  Also let us

17     pause between questions and answers so that the interpreters manage to

18     interpret everything we say and that it's all reflected in the record.

19        A.   Fine.  No problem.

20        Q.   Did you give the Defence team a statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Just pause a bit, please.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D6725, could we have that in

24     e-court, please.  1D6725.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we switch it to e-court.  Yes.

Page 31661

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is this the statement that you gave to the Defence team?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read this statement and did you sign it?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I read it and I signed it.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect everything you

 7     said?

 8        A.   Everything is recorded the way I remember it and the way I put

 9     it.

10        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today in court, would

11     your answers be the same?

12        A.   I hope so.  If they are written in this statement.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

15     tender this statement according to 92 ter, and there are no associated

16     exhibits except for an additional one.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6725 receives number D2678,

19     Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I would like to

21     read out a brief summary of Mr. Stanic's statement.  I'll read it out in

22     English.

23             [In English] Svetozar Stanisic was born on 26 of December, 1945,

24     in the village of Dubljevici, Gacko municipality.  He completed his

25     primary school in Vogosca and then attend the secondary school in

Page 31662

 1     Sarajevo where he also obtained a university degree at the faculty of

 2     forestry.  He worked in Sipad Inzenjering in Sarajevo until 6 of April,

 3     1992.  Mr. Svetozar Stanic was a deputy in the Vogosca Municipal Assembly

 4     and a member of the Vogosca Crisis Staff.

 5             After the events of March 1992, the assassination of a Serbian

 6     wedding guest, inter-ethnic tensions escalated drastically.  The Serbian

 7     people felt threatened because the MUP Ministry of Interior in Sarajevo

 8     harboured the organisers and perpetrators of this act.

 9             Members of the SDS found the legal basis for the formation of the

10     Serbian municipality of Vogosca in the BH Constitution and the SDS

11     created this, which was constituted in March 1992.  In doing this, the

12     SDS adhered to the legal basis and the law of ONO.  That means

13     All People's Defence.  Svetozar Stanic considers that the directive or

14     plan A and B is a response to the decision of the government of the

15     Republic of BH in the regionalisation of BH.  It was intended as a

16     reminder to municipal authorities of the provisions of the

17     Law on National Defence, All People's Defence, and relevant sections of

18     the constitution.

19             Until mid-April 1992, there were no problems with inter-ethnic

20     relations in Vogosca.  However, in mid-April of 1992, the Muslim forces,

21     completely unprovoked, surrendered an unarmed civilian settlement of

22     Grahoviste.  The civilian inhabitants were taken to other villages and

23     nothing is known of what happened to them.  Following this, the Muslims

24     launched an attack on the Pretis munitions factory and a number of Serbs

25     were killed.  There was also an incident when 150 cars and a lorry full

Page 31663

 1     of shells were misappropriated when Muslim guards were on duty.  These

 2     events gave rise to a certain distrust and suspicion towards Muslims.

 3             The Crisis Staff of Vogosca was established in -- and it operated

 4     on democratic principles, issuing guidance to the

 5     Assembly Executive Committee.  Committees were established for areas

 6     including registering abandoned flats, public utilities and shop

 7     supplies.  As a member of the Crisis Staff, Svetozar Stanic did not

 8     receive from any civilian or military authority any orders, instructions,

 9     or suggestions concerning the expulsion of non-Serbs from Vogosca.  Any

10     Muslims who wanted to leave Vogosca were allowed to do so without any

11     conditions and Muslim residents who remained received the same food

12     supply as Serb residents without any discrimination.

13             Communication between Vogosca and Pale was extremely difficult.

14     A forestry path was used to travel around the villages and to Pale, which

15     was critical as many of the other roads were blocked.  Muslims often

16     placed ambushes and -- roadblocks even on this, the only road, and

17     attacked all vehicles travelling on this which were mainly vans carrying

18     wounded to the hospital.  Many Serbian civilians had been killed and

19     wounded whilst travelling between Vogosca and Pale.

20             Svetozar Stanic was aware of the Sonja Motel where prisoners of

21     war were temporarily detained until they could be transferred to the Kula

22     prison.  Svetozar Stanic also learned about Planjia Kuca prison but only

23     later on from media.  While at that time he was in Vogosca he was not

24     aware of this.

25             In relation to the attack on Vogosca SJB, he is aware that it was

Page 31664

 1     carried out by Boro Radic of his own accord.  Before the outbreak of the

 2     war, Radic had led the Patriotic League youth in a parade.  When the

 3     attack occurred, the police station was still a joint SJB with all

 4     nationalities working in it.  The situation was resolved without any

 5     further loss of lives.  However, many people were taken to hospital,

 6     where at the same time Juka Prazina was killing in the hospital -- Kosevo

 7     Hospital was killing Serbian patients and doctors.  Immediately after the

 8     event, the BH MUP divided the police forces at all levels.

 9             A meeting was organised on 20th of -- around 20th of April, 1992,

10     between members of the SDS, SDA, and the League of Communists of

11     Yugoslavia.  Plans formulated by the SDS were suggested for all parties

12     to become involved in the protection of the state, commercial and

13     personal property and public institutions.  It was also suggested that

14     the representatives if the -- to these representatives if the SDS and SDA

15     should meet more often and resolve their differences in a peaceful and

16     civilised manner.  However, the SDA representatives did not accept the

17     proposal and were inflexible and demanded absolute power of the entire

18     territory of Vogosca municipality.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I have a document that I'd like to ask you about, Mr. Stanic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up 1D06726.

22     Could we please have that in e-court.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31665

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed.

17             Do you have any observation, Mr. Tieger?

18             MR. TIEGER:  With respect to the privacy concerns?  I think it's

19     a very good point, Mr. President.  I don't know whether it even extends

20     beyond that, but with respect to that level of detail, I certainly agree.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Or if necessary, you can upload a

22     redacted version, redacting only the telephone number later.  Let's

23     continue.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I was [overlapping speakers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Or probably the address as well.

Page 31666

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We agree.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Stanic, in this letter is he conveying his regards to other

 5     representatives of the authorities through you as well as other prominent

 6     Serbs in Vogosca?

 7        A.   Yes.  He mentions Jovo Pejovic, a member of the Crisis Staff

 8     here, Jovan Pejovic.  And also this Beganisic [phoen].  However, he was

 9     already in Belgrade by then.  I don't know the man, so I did not really

10     get in touch with him.  What was his name?  Beganisic.  As for Jovo

11     Pejovic, who was a member of the Crisis Staff, I told him about that and

12     he was very pleased.  He was very pleased to receive such greetings.

13             Your Honours, I have never given anyone this before.  It happened

14     to be in my passport when I travelled to ChicagoChicago, Belgrade,

15     Amsterdam, Chicago, that's how I travelled in 2001, 2002, whatever, so I

16     thought that I could call Mr. Bajrakovic and we could have a cup of

17     coffee, because it wasn't possible then because I was at the airport,

18     only I didn't have a visa for Europe, so I had very little time and we

19     could not really meet up then.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I have this

22     marked for identification, please.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll mark this for identification with the

24     understanding that the redacted version will be uploaded instead of this

25     one.  We'll mark it for identification, I mean the redacted one.

Page 31667

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6726 receives number D2679,

 2     Your Honours, MFI'd.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Just another question, Mr. Stanic.  Where did Mr. Bajrakovic live

 5     before he left, and how was he enabled to leave?

 6        A.   Mr. Barakovic lived in the urban part of Vogosca, that is to say

 7     in the centre basically.  Only the basis of a decision of the

 8     Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca, one of the conclusions

 9     was that all people who wished to leave the territory of the municipality

10     of Vogosca, regardless of whether they were Muslims or Croats, that they

11     should be allowed to leave in unhindered fashion with their property,

12     this movable property that they might have had, cars and other movable

13     property.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did the same apply to Serbs, military-aged Serbs?

15        A.   No.  Military-aged Serbs were not allowed, because they had this

16     obligation according to the Law on All National Defence.  All Serbs who

17     were called up by the Secretariat of National Defence in the municipality

18     were duty-bound to respond to call-up, and if a person would prove to be

19     able bodied, then they would stay, whereas if people were not capable of

20     doing certain things then they were allowed to leave the municipality.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stanic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At this point in time I have no

23     further questions of this witness.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Stanic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief has been

Page 31668

 1     admitted in most part in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now

 2     you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the

 3     Prosecutor, Mr. Tieger.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning,

 6     Your Honours.  This is actually the first time in days I get to see

 7     Judge Baird from this position.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

 9        Q.   Mr. Stanic, as Mr. Karadzic alluded to in his summary, you

10     discuss at paragraph 5 of your statement your views of the instructions

11     of 19 December, otherwise known as variant A and B, including your

12     conclusion regarding its relationship to Bosnian regionalisation six

13     months earlier and that it was a reminder of various laws.

14             Now, in paragraph 8 you also mention the establishment of the

15     Vogosca Crisis Staff on the basis of All People's Defence and social

16     protection.  In fact, Mr. Stanic, the Vogosca Crisis Staff, as you

17     indicated in your testimony in the Momcilo Mandic case in 2007, was

18     established in response to the 19 December instructions; correct?

19        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I would kindly ask you to deal with these

20     questions one by one.  I cannot answer all three questions that you put.

21     So would you agree that we deal with one question first and then the

22     other one, and could we see on the monitor these items that you are

23     interested in?

24             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, do you have your statement with you now?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My statement is in my jacket.  I

Page 31669

 1     asked if I could take it with me, and then if not, I could receive a copy

 2     from you.  So I don't really have it.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   I think the Court will be happy to provide you with a copy of the

 5     statement.  And this appears to be a copy here.

 6             Now, Mr. Stanic, just to clarify, I referenced paragraph 5 for

 7     your benefit but did not ask you a question about it.  I referenced

 8     paragraph 8 for your benefit but did not ask you a question about it.

 9     The question was this:  In fact, the Vogosca Crisis Staff was established

10     in response to the 19 December instructions, just as you indicated in

11     your testimony during the Momcilo Mandic case in 2007.  That's correct,

12     isn't it?

13        A.   Well, let me tell you, I don't remember.  In my dossier, or,

14     rather, in my statement it says the Crisis Staff of Vogosca was

15     established on the basis of the Law on All People's Defence and social

16     protection so there were laws and that's how it was established then at

17     the time and we had been cautioned -- or, rather, we were informed that

18     we should invoke the organisation of the Crisis Staff according to this

19     plan A and B.

20             Now, what am I trying to say?  I'm trying to say that already in

21     that period there was reason to suspect that Muslims through their

22     representatives in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina wished to secede by

23     force from -- to have the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina secede and

24     thereby our Serb people too.  According to the Law on All People's

25     Defence, a certain caution was given in this way to -- I'm sorry.

Page 31670

 1        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir, but I'm going to do that when

 2     your question -- when your response is not directly -- does not directly

 3     answer my question, because I have limited time.

 4        A.   All right.

 5        Q.   So if I understand your answer correctly, the answer is you were

 6     informed, that is, we in Vogosca, I presume, were informed to create the

 7     Crisis Staff according to the -- to plan A and B, but then you wanted to

 8     explain some of the reasons behind that; is that correct?

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I mentioned paragraphs 5 and -- paragraph 5 of

11     your statement in which you focus on various laws and the alleged Bosnian

12     government move towards regionalisation six months earlier, but,

13     Mr. Stanic, the fact is, is it not, that variant A and B provided for the

14     establishment of Serb organs of power.  It was about establishing control

15     so that when the war began at that moment in the municipalities where

16     Serbs were in the majority, they had municipal power, held it firmly,

17     controlled everything, and in the municipalities where they were in the

18     minority, they had set up secret government, Municipal Boards,

19     Assemblies, that they had set up a government and a brigade, a unit, no

20     matter what size, and there was a detachment with a commander?  That's

21     the thrust of what A and B was about and what it accomplished; correct?

22        A.   That is not very precise.  I have to refer you to certain legal

23     provisions in relation to plan A and B.  I said then also and in my

24     statement that this is based in -- on the Law of the All People's Defence

25     of the former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina if it is in accordance with

Page 31671

 1     the then SFRY, that is to say the Socialist Federal Republic of

 2     Yugoslavia.  So the Crisis Staffs were established in municipalities,

 3     even in local communes.  The Crisis Staff of Vogosca had --

 4        Q.   Mr. Stanic, excuse me.  All right.  Are you -- again and I want

 5     to focus on the question.  These are not platforms for you to explain

 6     everything you might want to say about the general topic, so just please

 7     try to focus on the question and we will move, I think, in a more logical

 8     fashion.

 9             So with respect to what I described to you, you said that is not

10     very precise.  Does that mean you think there are other aspects that

11     could be elaborated on including what you consider to be the underlying

12     legal basis, or does that mean you're saying that's not wrong and that I

13     was not providing an accurate summary?

14        A.   Well, you didn't provide an accurate summary, sir, because, and

15     this is why I wanted to point this out, to explain this to avoid any

16     mistakes so that you don't have an impression that it could be

17     interpreted in various ways, my interpretation is that all the

18     municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time had in accordance with

19     the law the right to form Crisis Staffs if there was an imminent threat

20     of war, an external or internal threat.  The Serbian part of Vogosca

21     municipality, well, there was also a Muslim part in Kobilja Glava, they

22     had their Crisis Staffs before we did --

23        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] Mr. Stanic, stop, please.  I'm sorry, sir.

24     And I know it feels [overlapping speakers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  Let's hear him out

Page 31672

 1     this time.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, that's -- that's -- I'm always

 3     willing to do so but I've been given extremely limited time.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll bear that in mind.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed.  Okay.  You were stopped when you

 7     were saying, "a Muslim part in Kobilja Glava, they had their Crisis Staff

 8     before we did."

 9             Please continue.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had a Crisis Staff before we

11     did, and throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina the Muslims and the HDZ had

12     their own Crisis Staffs.  So we established our Crisis Staff in the

13     municipality of Vogosca in January or February 1992, whereas the HDZ

14     established its Crisis Staffs sometime in September 1991.  The SDA, the

15     Muslim Party of Democratic Action, established its Crisis Staffs even

16     before the multi-party elections held in November 1990, and these were

17     paramilitary formations, the Patriotic League and the Green Berets and

18     Lilies, and so on and so forth.  So they already had their Crisis Staffs

19     that were legally maintained.  We were aware of their existence and this

20     was a response to that.  We Serbs who at the time felt under threat

21     thought we had to organise ourselves as best we could in order to protect

22     ourselves and all the others living in the area regardless of their

23     ethnicity, their nationality.  We wanted to be secure in those areas and

24     this was above all a means of procuring food, providing health care,

25     treatment, and everything else.  I can't remember all the details, but

Page 31673

 1     everything else in accordance with the Law of All People's Protection and

 2     social self protection.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Two things quickly.  First of all, Mr. Stanic, can you tell me

 5     where, that is, what provision of the SFRY Law on All people's Defence

 6     uses the term "Crisis Staff"?

 7        A.   Well, the Crisis Staff -- well, it's in accordance with the

 8     constitution, with the laws in force in Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina at the time.  As for the article concerned, I can't remember

10     them now.  If I had prepared this, I'd be able to refer to these articles

11     that addressed this issue, but I can't tell you that according to those

12     provisions on All People's Defence, its well-known Law on All People's

13     Defence and self protection, according to this law which is based on the

14     constitution of the SFRY, well, these constitutions are in accordance

15     with the republican constitutions, so that is the situation.

16        Q.   All right.  So you can't tell me that and in fact I put it to

17     you, Mr. Stanic, that there is no mention of Crisis Staff in the SFRY

18     Law on All People's Defence at all.

19        A.   As far as I know it is mentioned, the Crisis Staffs in certain

20     situations, and this also concerns republican ones.  I can tell you that

21     president of the Territorial Defence at the time was Franjo Herljevic,

22     and he was also the president of the civilian protection, and

23     Crisis Staffs also were considered to be Crisis Staffs in certain

24     segments for certain units, for certain republican levels, but the

25     republics would then transfer this to municipal levels to

Page 31674

 1     Municipal Boards.

 2        Q.   All right.  I'm also going to put it to you that it's not

 3     mentioned in the constitution, but I want to talk to you about what

 4     the -- what I raised earlier, and that is that irrespective of the legal

 5     provisions you mentioned, the answer you gave had nothing to do with

 6     whether or not when the war began in the municipalities where the Serbs

 7     were in the majority they had municipal power, held it firmly, controlled

 8     everything, and in the municipalities where they were in the minority set

 9     up secret government, et cetera, and in any event had a government and a

10     brigade.  That -- what I read to you earlier, that you said was not

11     precise, Mr. Stanic, that you said was not accurate, those were not my

12     words, Mr. Stanic.  Those were the words of Mr. Karadzic to the

13     Bosnian Serb Assembly in April of 1995.

14        A.   In April 1995.  I don't know what Mr. Karadzic said then, but all

15     I can do is give another explanation.  In the territory where the

16     authorities were mixed, the Serbs and Muslims, I'm talking about the

17     municipality of Vogosca, there the local communes in accordance with the

18     law concerning the organisation, they could leave certain municipalities

19     if they weren't happy.  This was in accordance with the

20     Law on Constitution, Article 263 or 235 of the constitution of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina, and they could join up with another municipality or

22     establish a new municipality.  And it is on the basis of those laws, if I

23     may continue --

24        Q.   No, you may not continue.  I'm asking you, please, about

25     variant A and B.  I'm not asking you about other legal bases that in your

Page 31675

 1     view would have permitted the municipalities to take certain action.  I'm

 2     asking you about this particular document, why it was disseminated, and

 3     how it was implemented.  Now, I just cited you language about what A and

 4     B accomplished.  You said it was wrong, and now I turned your attention

 5     to the fact that it was Dr. Karadzic who said that.  Now, do you still

 6     dispute that that was the effect of variant A and B?

 7        A.   Well, variants A and B are defined in that way.  May I comment on

 8     them so that we get the right answer?

 9        Q.   I don't want a dissertation on A and B generally.  I want an

10     answer to my question.  Do you still dispute that that -- it is wrong to

11     say that was the effect of variant A and B, that that's what it

12     accomplished?  You had a full opportunity to describe your other views

13     about A and B in your statement.  Now I'm asking you about very precise

14     aspects of it.

15        A.   Could you put that direct question to me once more, please, if

16     it's not too difficult.

17        Q.   I asked you if it wasn't the case that A and B provided for the

18     establishment of Serb organs of power and was about establishing control

19     over territories so that at the moment the war began in the municipality

20     where the Bosnian Serbs were in the majority they had municipal power,

21     held it firmly, controlled everything.  In the municipalities where they

22     were in the minority they set up secret government, Municipal Boards,

23     Municipal Assemblies, presidents of Executive Boards.  You will remember

24     the A and B variant.  In the B variant where we're in the minority, we

25     had set up a government brigade --

Page 31676

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.  We established that at the time, but it's not a

 2     secret.  It was done quite publicly.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  And in Vogosca, it was Jovan Tintor who -- who

 4     became the president of the Crisis Staff, who created military

 5     formations, a brigade, indeed went from municipality to municipality

 6     creating military formations on order from his president; correct?

 7        A.   No.  Jovan Tintor was the president of the Crisis Staff of

 8     Vogosca.  As a member of the Main Board of the SDS of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina, and therefore he did not organise those military brigades.

10     On the contrary, the Crisis Staff issued instructions to executive

11     committee of the Municipal Assembly.  They were to carry out a

12     mobilisation, and it was the secretary for national defence of the

13     Municipal Assembly of Vogosca, Jovan Pradanovic [phoen], who was

14     responsible for this, and he called up all members who wanted to respond

15     to the call-up in accordance with the law, all members who wanted to

16     respond to this mobilisation.

17        Q.   Mr. Tintor, in fact, was the head of the illegal brigade in

18     Vogosca.  Isn't that correct?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Well again, Mr. Stanic, I'm quoting the words of Mr. Karadzic

21     before the Bosnian Serb Assembly:

22             "We made various calculations and agreements with Yugoslavia.  We

23     decided to set up the TO, the Serbian brigades, which were indeed led by

24     the SDS but not as a party army but as people's army, for not everyone

25     dared to put himself at the head of an illegal brigade and oppose the

Page 31677

 1     Green Berets like Jovan Tintor."

 2             And that's at P00970.  That's what Dr. Karadzic said about

 3     Jovan Tintor in front of the Assembly and in front of Mr. Tintor.  Do you

 4     still dispute that?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are kindly asking the counsel

 6     not to touch his microphone while talking.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President of the Crisis Staff, and

 8     in the Crisis Staff at the time, at the beginning, there were 21 members

 9     as far as I can remember, and the Crisis Staff issued guidelines to the

10     Executive Committee, Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of

11     Vogosca, and before the war the president of the Municipal Assembly was

12     Rajko Kopravica, and don't want -- Mr. Karadzic said about Jovan Tintor,

13     but while I was there Jovo Peranovic was Secretary of National Defence

14     established, or, rather, issued a call-up for mobilisation.  All the

15     reserve officers responded all those who had served in the JNA or were

16     serving in the JNA and it was their responsibility to respond to the

17     call-up in accordance with the law.  At the time in accordance with those

18     regulations a brigade was established in Vogosca in the neighbourhood

19     where Captain Zoric, reserve captain, was.  He -- deceased.  The brigade

20     was established in Blagovac and Miladin Trifunovic was the commander

21     there.  So those are the brigades that were established on the basis of

22     the call-up issued by the municipal authorities, Krivoglavci, Semizovac,

23     all those who responded at the time became part of those brigades.

24        Q.   I quoted you earlier from Mr. Karadzic describing variant A and B

25     and what he continued to say at that time was about the SDS organising

Page 31678

 1     the people and creating the army.  Was that -- that army that had been

 2     created by the SDS together with the police were the armed forces of the

 3     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, "They created the space,

 4     liberated and created the space."  And again that's found at P970.

 5     You'll find that at English pages 316 through 317.

 6             Now, Mr. Stanic, the space that was liberated by the Bosnian Serb

 7     forces was sometimes in areas where the Bosnian Serbs were a majority and

 8     sometimes in areas where the Muslims were a majority but that there were

 9     strategic or other reasons, economic, for example, for the Bosnian Serbs

10     to seek that territory; is that correct?

11        A.   Sir, could you please put questions to me about the

12     Vogosca Municipal Assembly.  Don't ask me questions of a general kind.

13     The Vogosca Municipal Assembly established its units in the territory

14     where the Serbs were in the majority.  That's Krivoglavci - I mentioned

15     that place earlier - Blagovac as well, Vogosca, or the urban part of

16     Vogosca, Donji Vogosca, Semizovci, and so on and so forth.  So those are

17     places where the Serbs were locals.  They had been so for centuries.  And

18     according to the last election they were in the majority.  I can answer

19     such questions but don't ask me about these general issues as to who

20     lived where.  I had so many problems at the -- at that time that I was

21     concerned with these problems that I'm testifying about here today.

22        Q.   Try to focus on the question and not elaborate more than is

23     necessary.  I'll ask you about Vogosca first of all.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   According to the 1991 census, Vogosca was a Muslim majority

Page 31679

 1     municipality.  There were more Muslims in Vogosca than Serbs; correct?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   And in Vogosca, it was the view of the political leadership from

 4     the beginning that Vogosca had to be taken because of its industry.

 5     That's correct also, isn't it?

 6        A.   Vogosca, well, that's partially correct.  What is fully correct

 7     is the following:  Pretis and Vogosca, the urban part was 70 per cent

 8     Serb.  Pretis, Utava [phoen], Tasa [phoen], Vogosca, that area, that

 9     urban area had a majority of Serbs in comparison to Vukovlja [phoen]

10     Glava, Hotonj, Barice where that wasn't the case.  So therefore we didn't

11     conquer anything.  We didn't take any territory.  We protected the

12     military industry, economic facilities in Vogosca at the time and at the

13     time Vogosca was one of the strongest municipalities in the

14     Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.  There was the Pretis

15     industry there, one of the largest place in the Balkans.  There was a bed

16     factory Tas and Unis, and there was the Tas car factory where Volkswagens

17     were produced, or, rather, 50 per cent of it was Tas.  So that was

18     industry that was of importance and Pretis is a military industry --

19        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I fear it's not going to be possible to educate you

20     on your full tendency to elaborate on everything that's raised, but now

21     you're giving me a dissertation on the full extent of industry in Vogosca

22     which hasn't been asked for.  So let me return to the subject we were

23     discussing and that was the reason to take Vogosca.

24             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection may I call up P05511.

25        Q.   And I'm going to direct your attention to a meeting of the

Page 31680

 1     Vogosca Serbian Municipal Assembly held on the 14th of November, 1992,

 2     which was attended by, among other people, yourself.  In fact, it

 3     appeared that as president of the Serbian Municipal Assembly, you chaired

 4     the meeting.  And by Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.  And if we turn to page 3 of

 5     the English and page 5 of the B/C/S we see Mr. -- a reflection of

 6     Mr. Krajisnik's remarks.  And in the middle of the page in English it

 7     states the opinion of the political leadership about Vogosca is positive.

 8     In the beginning the opinion was take Vogosca because of its industry.

 9             That's correct, isn't it?

10        A.   No, that's not correct.  We didn't take the industry in Vogosca.

11     We protected it, because this was the property of the

12     Secretariat for National Defence in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

13     and this is Pretis, and according to those directives we protected it.

14     We didn't take it, because the attack on the 17th and 18th of April took

15     place on Vogosca.  And it was the Muslim forces who went from Hotonj,

16     Barice, Kobilja Glava, Sarajevo.  There were paramilitary units and they

17     took it on that occasion and then the JNA got involved.  So Pretis was

18     the property of the SSNO.  We did not take it.  We just protected it.

19     And I also asked the Muslim side at a meeting to protect --

20        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

21        A.   -- it.  I apologise.

22        Q.   I'm sure you'll get better at this.  By that time, that is the

23     14th of November, 1992, in fact the Bosnian Serbs had taken 80 per cent

24     of Vogosca and were still looking to -- looking for more, that is looking

25     to liberate, in their words, more.  That's correct, isn't it?

Page 31681

 1        A.   Vogosca.  I don't know which period you are referring to now,

 2     sir, but --

 3        Q.   Let me look at the remarks of Miladin T.  I presume that's

 4     Mr. Trifunovic.  That's page 2 of the English, also page 2 of the B/C/S.

 5     He says, We took -- this is toward the top of the page in English.  We

 6     took 80 per cent out of 30 per cent of the territories.  And then he goes

 7     on in the next long paragraph, we have to clean up the area of the

 8     Kobilja Glava, et cetera, et cetera, we will finish our job and liberate

 9     it.

10             Now, there Mr. Trifunovic is talking about the extent of Vogosca

11     territory that has been taken up to that point and about the intention to

12     take more; correct?

13        A.   That's not correct.  That is not correct for the simple reason

14     that at the Vogosca Municipal Assembly, there were -- in the

15     Municipal Assembly there were several local communities, and wherever the

16     Muslims were in the majority we didn't tamper with them.  We didn't agree

17     on anything.  On the contrary, at one of the meetings of the Crisis Staff

18     Miladin Trifunovic was issued a task as the commander of the

19     Blagovac Battalion.  Since Blagovac was above battalion, his task was to

20     protect Pretis and to make sure no one damaged it.  And his second task

21     was that Mr. Miladin Trifunovic should communicate with the Tihovici

22     local commune which was a neighbouring local commune and nothing was to

23     be done to provoke a conflict or incident of any kind.  So that was his

24     task issued by the Crisis Staff.  I can tell you that and I can stand by

25     that.  And on the other hand, Uglasuglevci [phoen] was never attacked

Page 31682

 1     Ugorsko, Ugljesici, Betanija, and Kobilja Glava --

 2        Q.   Now, go ahead.  You were dealing with Kobilja Glava, please, and

 3     that's what I wanted to direct your attention to.  Please continue.

 4        A.   So at that time we did not take or conquer anything.  All we did

 5     was protect our local communes.  This was done in agreement with the

 6     presidents of the local communities and in agreement with the deputies,

 7     representatives.  These were the local communities where the Serbs were

 8     in the majority.  So there was an exceptional case around the beginning

 9     of May.  If I may, sir, explain this.

10        Q.   No, please, unless the Court wants you to --

11        A.   Very well.  Thank you.

12        Q.   I want to focus on this.  So do I understand that you're

13     telling -- do I understand correctly that you're telling this Court that

14     when Mr. Trifunovic said on May -- on November 14th that they were not

15     satisfied with the amount of territory and spoke about plans to finish

16     the job and liberate Kobilja Glava, that that was not correct, that there

17     were no plans to liberate Kobilja Glava?

18        A.   I can claim with full responsibility that I don't know about

19     this, and there were no discussions about taking Kobilja Glava,

20     Tihonje [phoen] or Barice.  I can claim this with full responsibility,

21     and I don't know what he was saying at the Assembly.  I can't remember.

22     But you know, this is the truth.  I'm telling you this with full

23     responsibility, and I stand by everything I said.

24        Q.   Well, then let's turn to a meeting of the very next day, the

25     15th of November, 1992.  And this was a meeting of the

Page 31683

 1     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, which was attended by various members of

 2     the command and also various officials from Sarajevo municipalities,

 3     including Mr. Prstojevic, from Ilidza; Mr. Radic, Trifko Radic, president

 4     of the Sarajevo Assembly; and yourself, the president of Vogosca

 5     municipality.

 6             And if we turn to page 16 of the English and page 11 of the

 7     B/C/S, we see remarks by you, sir.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have the exhibit number or the 65 ter number.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  My apologies, Mr. President.  Yes, it's P5065.

10        Q.   And there we see your remarks.  You greet the audience and then

11     speak of "the five municipalities to create plans with the commanders to

12     liberate Kobilja Glava."

13             So despite your assertion that you can claim to this Court with

14     full responsibility that there were no plans to liberate Kobilja Glava,

15     the precise opposite was true, Mr. Stanic?

16        A.   Can I see who signed the minutes and who kept it, because I don't

17     recognise this.  I don't recognise myself in these words.

18        Q.   Mr. Stanic, you can look at the front page of the document.  You

19     can look over the entire document, as far as I'm concerned, if you want.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we show the first page -- just a second --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps just the first page.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   And for your information, the record was taken by

24     Colonel Aleksa Krsmanovic, and that's indicated at the end of the

25     document.

Page 31684

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Last page.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Public Prosecutor, believe me

 3     when I say that I met Aleksa Krsmanovic for the first time in Belgrade

 4     when he was released.  I believe he had been taken prisoner by the Muslim

 5     forces together with General Djukic.  That is when I met him for the

 6     first time, Mr. Krsmanovic.

 7        Q.   There were a lot of people at this meeting, obviously,

 8     Mr. Stanic.  I'm not suggesting you met him at a formal introduction to

 9     him at the meeting.  He's the note-taker at that meeting taking elaborate

10     notes on a very long meeting in great detail and indicating your presence

11     very clearly, giving your titled, where you're from, and recording what

12     you said.

13        A.   I wasn't able to see where the meeting was held.  If possible,

14     could we go back to that page?

15        Q.   Beginning of the document indicates pursuant an order of the

16     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, consultations --

17        A.   Command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

18        Q.   Consultation was held at the Slobodan P. Zelja barracks in

19     Lukavica beginning at 10.00 and ending at 16.30 on the

20     15th of November, 1992.

21        A.   I state responsibly that I was not present at that meeting.  As

22     far as I know, the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca municipality lasted a

23     long time, the session of the 14th of November, 1992.  It was then when I

24     resigned.  Following my resignation, I no longer took part in any

25     activities.  That is why I'm saying this.  That is why I do not recall

Page 31685

 1     this.  I told you when I saw Mr. Krsmanovic for the first time and it was

 2     the only time.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But do you see your name, Mr. Stanic, on number

 4     20 -- 20 --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it.  I see it.  I saw it

 6     before.  But I'm telling you that I wasn't present at the meeting.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   I just want to clarify one more thing with respect to

 9     Kobilja Glava.  That was a settlement or a village or area consisting of

10     2.866 people, 2.750 of whom were Muslims, four of whom were Croats, and

11     46 Serbs, along with 37 Yugoslavs.  Is that correct or approximately

12     correct, Mr. Stanic?

13        A.   I was moving the headset or the microphone, so I couldn't hear

14     you well.  If possible, could you please repeat the question.

15        Q.   Sure I just wanted you to confirm the demographics of

16     Kobilja Glava as indicated in 1991 census and that would be approximately

17     2.866 people, about 2.750 of whom were Muslim.

18        A.   I think so.  I don't see wrong with the figures.  I don't know

19     precisely, but I presume it was as you put.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Stanic, you were asked in -- about detention

21     facilities in Vogosca, and that's reflected in paragraph 13 of your

22     statement, and you emphasise that your responsibilities on the

23     Crisis Staff were related to commercial matters and noted that someone

24     else was, and that's Mr. Luketa, I believe, was in charge of matters

25     related to detention facilities.  So as I understand it, you assert that

Page 31686

 1     your information about such facilities was limited because that was not

 2     your job.

 3        A.   That's right.  But I wasn't in charge of commercial matters, but

 4     I was in charge of legal and trade entities in Vogosca municipality, and

 5     I was tasked to conduct negotiations with the SDA and HDZ

 6     representatives.  I was tasked to do that by my party if such talks ever

 7     occurred at the -- on the local level.

 8        Q.   Now, you did mention that you knew about the existence of Sonja's

 9     place, and I wanted to ask you whether you knew that it was established

10     by the Crisis Staff.

11        A.   Yes.  The Crisis Staff established Sonja's as a place where

12     people could be interrogated, and that was also the first headquarters of

13     the Crisis Staff once we left the adult education centre.  We moved to

14     the Sonja Motel then, and at one of the sessions the Crisis Staff decided

15     to take over the facility from Zeljko Beganovic.  He happened to have

16     been a good friend of mine together with his mother Sonja because I used

17     to take lunch there often, and that's where the Crisis Staff was set up.

18             After some shellings from Ugljesici and Ugarsko we had to move

19     the Crisis Staff and we actually changed location every three or four

20     sessions because we were in danger.  A decision was made by the

21     Crisis Staff to set up an interrogation and judicial facility at the

22     motel in order to be able to conduct investigations of prisoners so that

23     they could be sent onward to Kula or processed further.  That's the truth

24     of it.  Perhaps I elaborated a bit.

25        Q.   Now, do I understand, then, that you were not familiar with a

Page 31687

 1     detention facility called the bunker, which was close to Sonja's place?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, since I grew up in that part of Vogosca, I can

 3     tell you the bunker facility dates back to World War II.  I recall it.

 4     It is some 200 metres away, although I never went there, so I don't know

 5     precisely.  In any case, when I was a young man and I went to swim there,

 6     it had always been locked.

 7        Q.   Sorry.  I should have asked that a bit more precisely, and that

 8     is were you familiar with the use of the bunker as a detention facility?

 9        A.   No.  I didn't know that, and I explained that there was a metal

10     door at the entrance of the bunker.  I remember it since when I was a

11     little boy on my way to swim.  It was overgrown, and I never actually saw

12     it with my own eyes.  I have never heard that it was used as a kind of

13     prison or anything else.

14        Q.   You've indicated you never heard that it was used as a prison or

15     anything else.  Let me just get a little more clarity on this.  Are you

16     claiming that you know that it was not used as a facility or that you

17     just never heard that it was and you don't know whether or not it was or

18     was not?

19        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I never heard of such intentions, and I have no

20     knowledge that it was used to that end.  I only know of the Sonja's place

21     as a location designated by the Crisis Staff.  Now, what was done there,

22     who brought whom, and whether they used the bunker, that's something I

23     don't know.

24        Q.   Well, there's a man by the name of Slobodan Avlijas who is on the

25     Defence witness list who was an assistant minister of justice in 1992,

Page 31688

 1     and he testified at the trial of Momcilo Mandic that he came to Vogosca,

 2     saw the bunker and that the conditions were "truly horrific."  Indeed, he

 3     said that when he was talking about it many, many years later, he was

 4     "still horrified."  Do you have any reason to doubt that, that is that he

 5     observed the bunker was being used as a detention facility and that

 6     conditions were horrific?

 7        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, really, I never received such information from

 8     him.  If he came there, I guess he should have turned to those competent

 9     in the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca municipality and the

10     Executive Council as well as to the administrative and judicial bodies.

11     If I had known about it, although I had no power in the Executive Board,

12     being its president, I would have insisted to shut it down.  I didn't

13     know.  That's what I can repeat.  And I'm not familiar with it.

14        Q.   Well, Mr. Avlijas testified at the Mandic trial not only that he

15     was horrified by the conditions of the bunker but also that he met with

16     Mr. Koprivica, the chairman of the Executive Board, Mr. Zdravko Luketa

17     who was in charge of these matters as I believe you indicated for the

18     Crisis Staff, and yourself, and complained about those "truly horrific"

19     conditions at the bunker.

20        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I can only repeat what I've just said.  I wasn't

21     aware of it, and that he did not talk to me on that topic.  I assert

22     that.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the date of Avlijas's

24     visit?

25             MR. TIEGER:  I can call up the 65 ter number if -- well, that's a

Page 31689

 1     little bit much for a witness on Mr. Karadzic's own list.  I'm reciting

 2     fully accurately what Mr. Avlijas testified to in the Mandic trial.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let us proceed, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just for planning purpose how much longer would you

 6     need, Mr. Tieger?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Here's what I have to discuss with the witness left,

 8     Mr. President:  I want to discuss the status of the detainees as

 9     reflected in several documents related to the Crisis Staff, and then I

10     want to discuss with him the issue of volunteers.  So I would imagine

11     that's -- given how time has gone thus far, I would imagine about

12     20 minutes unless the length of the answers changes abruptly.

13             JUDGE KWON:  If you could try to conclude before the break.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I'm doing my absolute best, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   Okay.  I want to discuss with you, Mr. Stanic, how the detainees

18     at the bunker and other facilities got there.  First of all -- and who

19     they were, okay?

20             Now, I understand you testified at the -- at the Mandic case that

21     you didn't have information about civilians being taken prisoner, that

22     you referred to prisoners of war.  Do you recall that testimony or -- or

23     not?

24        A.   I recall my testimony.

25        Q.   Okay.  Are you saying that you know for a fact that civilians

Page 31690

 1     were never detained and held in detention facilities in Vogosca or -- or

 2     just that you didn't have information to that effect, which of the two?

 3        A.   The only one is that the -- that I know of some detainees in the

 4     Sonja's facility.  That's what I know about and I stand by it.  I can

 5     repeat.  On one occasion Zdravko Luketa, a judge, called me to visit it.

 6     We were preparing to do so but I was called to an urgent meeting in

 7     Ilidza and I didn't accompany him to the facility.

 8        Q.   Are you aware that Crisis Staff documentation distinguished

 9     between persons who were considered prisoners of war and persons who were

10     not, that is, the nature of the documentation indicated that some were

11     prisoners of war and some wrote not?

12        A.   As far as I recall, of course there were -- there were POWs and

13     detainees who were first placed in the Sonja Motel.  They were

14     interrogated there, and if they had to be processed further or serve

15     their sentences, they were sent on to the Kula facility because we had no

16     such conditions to keep them.  And Mr. Zdravko Luketa, who passed away in

17     the meantime and who was then the court president, told me the same thing

18     on a number of occasions.

19        Q.   In respect of my earlier question I want to show you three

20     documents.  The first is 65 ter 24003.  This is a document signed by

21     Mr. Koprivica, and it orders as follows:  You are hereby ordered to set

22     free the Muslim prisoner of war.  It provides his name, and it indicates

23     that he used to be exchanged for Mr. Colic, who is a member of the VRS

24     and that that order shall come into effect immediately.

25             The next document is 24088.  This is a document --

Page 31691

 1        A.   Do I need to comment on this?

 2        Q.   I'll ask you a question.  These two documents are related, as

 3     you'll see, and I'll ask you a question about those in a moment.

 4        A.   This is a document of the 29th of July, 1992, again signed by

 5     Mr. Koprivica, and it orders the release of the following Muslim

 6     prisoners of war is hereby ordered.  It names these two.  It indicates

 7     that they are to be handed over to the commission for the exchange of

 8     prisoners and the order is effective immediately.

 9             Now, I showed you those documents, Mr. Stanic, so -- and I wanted

10     to ask you if we can agree that the Crisis Staff, when it was capable of

11     and in fact did identify someone as someone they considered to be a

12     prisoner of war, explicitly when they considered that to be the case.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see where this

14     refers to the War Staff?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the War Commission.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] followed on the heels of the Crisis Staff?

18        A.   So it's got nothing to do with the Crisis Staff, Mr. Prosecutor.

19        Q.   Let me ask you another way.  The officials, the authorities of

20     Vogosca in charge of such matters, that is -- and in this case the

21     commission which took over after on -- in -- in -- which was the official

22     body following the Crisis Staff was fully capable of indicating who in

23     their case -- who in their view they considered to be a prisoner of war

24     and did so explicitly in their documentation.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be -- could the

Page 31692

 1     witness receive another interpretation of the question slowly so that he

 2     understand it well.  I don't think the interpretation of the question was

 3     accurate.  Could we have another interpretation of the question while we

 4     wait?

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   For what it's worth it's a little unusual for me for counsel to

 7     be asking for -- on behalf of a witness to be taking the position that

 8     the witness doesn't understand a question.  The witness is fully capable

 9     of letting us know if he don't understand the question or not.

10             Now, I'll repeat it, Mr. Stanic, if you wish.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could you repeat your question, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   The officials in Vogosca in charge of the detention and release

14     of prisoners, in this case the War Commission, were fully capable of

15     indicating who in their view they considered to be a prisoner of war and

16     of explicitly indicating that view in the documentation connected with

17     the release or exchange of such detainees.

18        A.   First of all, let me explain something right away.  Mr. President

19     was right that this was not a matter of the Crisis Staff, but this was

20     the War Commission which was set up on the 1st of June, 1992.  As for

21     this order, I cannot comment on it, because it was part of the remit of

22     the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly and of the judiciary.  I

23     don't know where these prisoners were being held or, as they are referred

24     to, prisoners of war.  I've never heard of them.  I don't know whether

25     they were placed somewhere temporarily in Vogosca or whether they were

Page 31693

 1     serving their sentence at the Kula facility.  I cannot give you a precise

 2     answer, because I'm unaware of it all as a member -- as for me being a

 3     member of the War Commission, well, I wasn't.

 4        Q.   Yeah, you said that - it's in your statement - and, Mr. Stanic,

 5     as well as your surprise that you, as an official at that level, didn't

 6     transition into the War Commission like other officials; correct?

 7        A.   It's not clear to me.

 8        Q.   You were surprised that you as the president of the municipality

 9     didn't transition from the Crisis Staff into the War Commission as the

10     other -- as most of the other officials of that level did; correct?  And

11     you express that surprise in your statement.

12        A.   It is correct that I was not a member of the War Commission.  It

13     is also correct that I held such functions and positions as tasked by the

14     War Commission.  It was an operational team comprising five people.  When

15     invited by the president of that commission, I attended certain meetings

16     of theirs, only a number of them, but I wasn't familiar with this topic.

17        Q.   All right.  And I want to look at P2367.  This is a document

18     related to the exchange of prisoners on the 25th of May, 1992.  And this

19     does concern the Crisis Staff prior to the transition from Crisis Staff

20     into War Commission.

21             Now, this relates to the release from detention on condition of

22     exchange of certain persons who are listed both in that first page of the

23     document and then on a couple of handwritten appended pages, and it

24     describes them as follows:

25             "The citizens of Muslim ethnicity captured during fighting in the

Page 31694

 1     residential area of Svrake will be released from detention ...,"

 2     et cetera.

 3             Now, Mr. Stanic can we agree that that language the citizen of

 4     Muslim ethnicity captured in residential area, et cetera, is a reference

 5     to the fact that these people are civilians, not prisoners of war?

 6             THE ACCUSED: Where does it say civilian?  In a

 7     civil war, citizens fight --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger is putting his question to the witness.

 9     It's for the witness to answer the question.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, if I may, that is really a patently

11     inappropriate intervention.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I don't know -- I don't know if

13     it is allowed to introduce such words without the exact word "civilian"

14     being mentioned in the document.  In our system --

15             MR. TIEGER: [Overlapping speakers] And it -- and it -- and it

16     persists.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you are feeding the answer to the

18     witness.

19             MR. TIEGER:  [Overlapping speakers]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm only asking Mr. Tieger to

21     show us where it says civilian.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Do not overlap, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, but as the Court has

24     observed before once the intervention take place the objection is -- is

25     no longer has any point.

Page 31695

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I explain?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber finds your intervention

 5     this time very improper and inappropriate.  In the future, if you'd like

 6     to make an observation, could you tell us just you have an objection

 7     without putting the question.  Then the Chamber will see whether we need

 8     to hear your submission in the absence of the witness or not.  And this

 9     time we'll not -- we don't have to hear you further.  We agree with

10     Mr. Tieger that his -- his question is fair enough, in the Chamber's

11     view.

12             Would you like take a break, Mr. Tieger, or you can conclude in

13     five minutes?

14             MR. TIEGER:  I think it's better probably to take a break,

15     Mr. President, and I will absolutely pare down the remaining questions to

16     the bare minimum.  I will try to conclude in -- as quickly as possible.

17     There won't be much time afterwards, but I'll do my best to make it even

18     less than what it would have been.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We will take a break for 45 minutes and resume at

20     quarter past 1.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.21 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, please continue.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mr. Stanic, I want to complete our discussion of this document

Page 31696

 1     and then move on to very briefly discuss our remaining topic.

 2             Looking at P2367, the document of 25 May 1992, issued by the head

 3     of the department for judiciary administration and regulations with the

 4     consent of the Crisis Staff, the language used there, Mr. Stanic, to

 5     refer to those persons held, that is citizens of Muslim ethnicity, the

 6     reference to their capture in the residential area of Svrake, that

 7     language in contrast to the explicit denotations we saw in the previous

 8     two documents that you looked at is a reflection of the understanding

 9     that these people were civilians.  Isn't that right, Mr. Stanic?

10        A.   No.  These are members of the army -- or, rather, the

11     Patriotic League, and if I may, Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to give a

12     deeper or broader explanation in order for you to get an impression as to

13     who this was.

14             During or, rather, before the outbreak of the war --

15        Q.   Mr. Stanic, if this is something that Mr. Karadzic cares to get

16     into, he's welcome to do so, but I understand that your answer is that

17     when this document referred to the citizens of Muslim ethnicity and

18     describes where they were captured, that your view -- your position is

19     that is a way to refer to people who were considered to be POWs; correct?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, did he not say that he believed -- or

21     they were members of the Patriotic League, and he was cut off while

22     giving the reason for his -- for his -- such impression or belief.

23             Mr. Stanic, could you continue.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I started to say a moment ago,

25     these are members of paramilitary units or, rather, the Patriotic League

Page 31697

 1     that was established even before the multi-party elections were held in

 2     November 1990.  The task of these paramilitary units was as follows:

 3     From well-founded sources we learned that --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Stopping there, but what is your basis?  What was

 5     your basis for such a conclusion that they were the members of the

 6     paramilitary unit?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you that I had to give a

 8     deeper explanation.  On the basis of sources, a certain Nenad Spiric, who

 9     secretly got into the Svrake local commune, ethnically that's about

10     95 per cent, 96 per cent Muslim populated, it's a village, these are only

11     privately owned housed, there aren't any urban facilities there, he hid

12     there, the rascal, and he saw all their plans and all their agreements as

13     to what should be done.  To tell you the truth, at first I didn't believe

14     that, but the Crisis Staff made a decision, namely that in the barracks

15     opposite Svrake certain posts should be filled.  There was a captain

16     there who was a Montenegrin and a Macedonian who was, I don't know what,

17     a sergeant, and the members of the Territorial Defence entered there to

18     safeguard the property of the JNA.  From Svrake.  And then later on I

19     found out --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Stanic, please concentrate on answering the

21     question.  So take a look at this list.  I take it you can read the

22     first -- first three or four names.  On what basis that you are saying

23     that Camil Cehajic was a member of the paramilitary?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I wanted to

25     explain to you, that paramilitary units are actually the

Page 31698

 1     Patriotic League.  They were paramilitary units at the time, because the

 2     MUP was still in existence, and even before that there was the

 3     Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA.  Now, we had to --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. -- could you read out the name after

 5     Camil Cehajic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to tell you I can read this

 7     in the English version.  In my version to tell you the truth, you can't

 8     really see it.  I don't even know these names.  And that's why they were

 9     detained, to see who it was that they were, actually, so that we could

10     see whether they were members of the paramilitary units and whether they

11     were residents of the local commune of Svrake, because they had

12     surrendered after a while.  That was --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Stanic, my question is the second name reads as

14     Alija Halilovic.  How do you know he was a member of Patriotic League?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Judge, Your Honour,

16     Mr. President, that is why we had to examine this.  That is why this list

17     was in the Crisis Staff and in the secretariat for justice, to look into

18     the matter to see whether they were Patriotic League or not.  If they

19     were not, then they were exchanged for Serb prisoners, and that was the

20     decision of the judiciary organs of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And if they were, what would happen to them?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they were, then they would be

23     dealt with at the Kula prison and where their intentions and tasks would

24     be looked at.  I don't know any of these names.  And the Crisis Staff

25     didn't know either.

Page 31699

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And you said if they were not, then they were

 2     exchanged for Serb prisoners.  Then do you agree then those prisoners who

 3     were not members of Patriotic League were civilians?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were not civilians.  All

 5     of them were military conscripts.  All of them were young-ish men.  So

 6     they were not civilians.  All of them carried weapons.  Now, within this

 7     agreement, certain exchanges were supposed to take place, and they all

 8     took part in the attack against the JNA barracks in Semizovac.  We could

 9     not make a distinction as to who members of the Patriotic League were and

10     who were the people who were planted there by the

11     MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina illegally to take the barracks of the JNA and

12     to cut off the road between Visoko and Sarajevo.  For that reason this

13     had to be looked into to see who they were, what they were doing and how

14     many people were planted there from the MUP who had special tasks of

15     their own.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I move on to the

18     volunteers.  I'd also like to tender the previous two documents we looked

19     at, 24003 and 24088.

20             JUDGE KWON:  What was the document that bears 24088?

21             MR. TIEGER:  The 29 July release to [indiscernible] of war.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MR. TIEGER:  They were shown in quick succession.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic do you have any objection to the

25     admission of 24003?  Vogosca War Commission document.

Page 31700

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if I were to see it I believe

 2     I wouldn't have any objections, but now I can no longer tell which

 3     document it is.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload it, 24003.  Two prisoners of war to

 5     be handed over to the War Commission.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  No objection.  I believe the

 7     document is authentic, although this witness perhaps didn't know this.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Given the accused's position, we will receive this.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24003 receives number P6058,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  And shall we upload the next document.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objection, your Excellency.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24088 receives Exhibit P6059,

14     Your Honours.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Stanic, in paragraph 14 of your statement --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just one clarification.  In para 13 of -- of the

18     witness's statement, he refers to so-called Planina Kuca.  Does it mean

19     bunker?

20             MR. TIEGER:  No.  It's a reference to -- I believe that's a -- I

21     mean, as the witness, of course.  But I think Kuca is home, house

22     [overlapping speakers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] Where do you have bunker in

24     his statement?

25             MR. TIEGER:  He doesn't reference the bunker in the statement,

Page 31701

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So you asked about it for the first time.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Stanic, in paragraph 14 of your statement you state what you

 7     know about the volunteers, As it begins in connection with the volunteers

 8     I know the following, and you explain that a group of volunteers led by

 9     Jovo Ostojic arrived and were immediately placed under the command of the

10     VRS and who sent them.  Now, Mr. Stanic, what you didn't mention is the

11     fact that the municipality paid the volunteers.  That's correct, isn't

12     it?

13        A.   What do you mean the municipality paid them, the volunteers?

14        Q.   Correct.

15        A.   Again, I will have to give a lengthier explanation.  According to

16     the Law on All People's Defence, the status of volunteers is defined.  So

17     a volunteer is every person who does not have a wartime assignment and

18     who wishes to volunteer of their own free will into an armed unit.  So

19     the duties and responsibilities of volunteers are defined in the Law on

20     All People's Defence.  So the municipality is not duty-bound.  This goes

21     through the ministry.  And now it depends which one, how this was

22     financed.  So volunteers and military conscripts in regular armed forces

23     of Republika Srpska have the same obligations.

24        Q.   Okay.  As before, you provided a -- some sort of legal

25     dissertation on the status of the subject matter.  My question, I think,

Page 31702

 1     is a bit simpler, and that is:  Did Vogosca authorities provide payment

 2     to the volunteers or seek payment for funds to go to the volunteers?  Was

 3     that something that the municipal authorities of Vogosca did that was, in

 4     fact, not mentioned in paragraph 14 of your statement?

 5        A.   It is not mentioned in paragraph 14 of my statement.  That's

 6     true.  It's right here in front of me.  But it's possible that they did

 7     pay, the municipal authorities did, but with the possibility of being

 8     refunded from the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska, the

 9     appropriate organs.  It's possible, but I cannot recall.  It's been a

10     long time after all.

11        Q.   Let's look at P2373.  This is a document dated the

12     15th of July, 1992.  It's a document sent by you and signed by you, sent

13     to the Ministry of Finance seeking reimbursement of funds, including

14     reimbursement of funds in the name of reimbursements to volunteers.  In

15     the English by the way there's a tiny typo.  It seems to say 500.  As we

16     can see in the B/C/S, it actually says 500.000.

17             This document, Mr. Stanic, is a reflection of the fact that the

18     municipal authorities were funding the volunteers and then later seeking

19     reimbursement, in this instance from the republic authorities of RS.

20        A.   That's right.  The date is the 15th of July, as we see, and then

21     the municipal secretary, that is to say the secretary for national

22     defence of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca, he wrote this up, and I

23     signed it technically.  Why did I do that?  It was only the president of

24     the municipality that could sign a document and have the stamp affixed

25     there.  I do not doubt this, that this was my signature, and this is

Page 31703

 1     correct information, because the secretary for national defence of the

 2     Municipal Assembly of Vogosca had a list and he knew exactly who should

 3     get what and these resources should get refunded.  So you can see this

 4     and this is quite all right, and, as I said a moment ago, they have these

 5     rights and responsibilities like all other members of the armed forces

 6     and volunteers.

 7        Q.   Now, in addition to the fact that the municipality funded the

 8     volunteers, what is also left out of paragraph 14 when you describe what

 9     you know about the volunteers is the fact that officials from Vogosca

10     went to get them, and, in fact, Mr.  Stanisic you went to get them;

11     correct?

12        A.   That's correct.  I went there because this was a case of

13     volunteers from Sombor, and this is the association of Serbs from

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina in the territory of Serbia and they had a section of

15     their own in Sombor, and these young men volunteered saying that they

16     wanted to join up because originally they hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17     The parents during the 1940s, they were transferred to Vojvodina, Srem,

18     Backa, Baranja.  That's correct.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I have nothing further for this witness,

20     Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

22             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, Excellency, a bit more than

24     usual.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 31704

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Stanic, as for these papers A and B that you

 2     were asked about, did you take this to be an instruction or a binding

 3     order to act?

 4        A.   Mr. President, this was an instruction that we had received in

 5     order to analyse it, and this is what I can tell you:  When we received

 6     this instruction as to how we should behave, there was this legal team of

 7     the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca that worked on this and compared it to

 8     appropriate legal provisions and we thought that this was in accordance

 9     with Law on National Defence and social self protection and that is why I

10     referred to all of that in my letter.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In which situations are ad hoc bodies created in our

12     part of the world?  Regardless whether they're called Crisis Staffs or

13     War Presidency in which are they established?

14        A.   I always invoke laws, Mr. President.  This is regulated by law.

15     If the state is attacked, either from the outside or the inside, certain

16     bodies are established that will ensure the safety and security of

17     citizens and make sure that they receive proper supplies and then the

18     business community, companies, enterprises, so on, and I believe that all

19     of this is regulated in legal provisions and I remember full well that

20     Mr. Luketa and a few other lawyers analysed that then.

21        Q.   What was the function of Mr. Luketa whom you mentioned?

22        A.   Luketa was even before the war broke out the secretary -- the

23     secretary -- he was actually a misdemeanors judge and then later on he

24     became president of the court of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca.  So

25     he was in charge of legal acts in Vogosca and as such had been co-opted

Page 31705

 1     into the Crisis Staff.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  On page 44 of today's transcript, Mr. Tieger, in his

 3     compound questions, suggested that the Serb side or, rather, the SDS was

 4     preparing to firmly hold on to power throughout the municipality where

 5     Serbs are a majority and in municipalities where they are minority, that

 6     they would establish their own administration or some kind of government

 7     of their own.  Did you know -- or, rather, were Muslims and Croats denied

 8     the right to establish their own municipalities where they had condition

 9     for that -- conditions for that?

10        A.   No.  On the contrary.  When I was involved in negotiations on

11     behalf of the Crisis Staff, I was authorised by the Crisis Staff from the

12     Municipal Assembly of Vogosca and I offered them that we draw the border

13     in a peaceful manner, that we respect each other until a definitive

14     solution was reached.  And why did I do this?  Because of at time a

15     conference had already started, an international conference, the purpose

16     of which was to define the problems in Bosnia-Herzegovina in accordance

17     with Cutileiro's plan, and before it was known as Lord Carrington's plan,

18     and that was sometime in March 1992.  It is then that this initiative was

19     launched, and to be quite frank at the time I believed that war would not

20     break out because all three factions, and you were also present in

21     negotiations, all three factions agreed that a solution should be found

22     in order to divide up the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and to form

23     entities, if I'm not mistaken; if I am, do correct me.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Muslims in Vogosca have their own

25     municipality in Vogosca?

Page 31706

 1        A.   The Muslims in Vogosca had their own municipality at

 2     Kobilja Glava and in that municipality -- that municipality included all

 3     inhabitants who were in Ugarsko, Ugljesici, Hotonj, Barice,

 4     Kobilja Glava.  It included all those people who had left the core part

 5     of the city, the core part of the town of Vogosca, the urban part.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  As a municipality, was it your ambition for the

 7     Serbian municipality of Vogosca to include parts of the Muslim

 8     municipality of Vogosca, settlements that had a Muslim majority?

 9        A.   No, we didn't have such an intention at the outset.  We didn't

10     receive such ideas from anyone, and within the Crisis Staff this was not

11     matter that we ever discussed.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Muslim side have the ambition to place the

13     Serbian neighbourhoods under its own control?

14        A.   From the very beginning from April onwards, when they started

15     taking civilians in the Grahovici village -- well, these people were

16     civilians who weren't armed.  From that point in time they used deception

17     to take them in, to bring them in and even today we don't know what

18     happened to them.  That included Spasojevici, Pajdaci, Zivkovici,

19     Vladusici, and so on and so forth.  But that is the case, Mr. President.

20     It can be seen by the following:  Mile Palija, that is the first and last

21     name of one of the persons in that group, he had a summer house in

22     Grahovici, he was also arrested, but since he was a labourer and a good

23     worker in Pretis, the Pretis company, a friend of his recognised him and

24     he said, Mile you should flee from here, flee downstream otherwise you

25     will all come to harm.  What did that mean?    Well, there was then the

Page 31707

 1     attack on Pretis on the 17th or 18th or the 20th I don't know exactly.

 2        Q.   We'll get there later.

 3             THE INTERPRETERS:  The speakers are kindly asked to slow down for

 4     the interpretation.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I would like to ask you whether Mr. Trifunovic --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Please put a pause, both of you, for the benefit of

 8     the interpreters and us.  Please continue.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  And I may make this marker now.  I think we're

10     already straying into area that stretch the boundaries of the

11     cross-examination, and I will be rising to make that objection if it

12     continues.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You'll see your Excellencies that

15     that is not the case.  On page 55 you were asked the following -- well,

16     in fact, you were told that Mr. Trifunovic had asked that Kobilja Glava

17     be liberated.  Did Mr. Trifunovic -- was Mr. Trifunovic part of the

18     civilian authorities?  What was he a part of?

19        A.   Mr. Trifunovic was a commander.  He was the commander of the

20     Blagovac Battalion.  I don't know when this was presented, Mr. President.

21     When I was there Mr. Trifunovic had certain tasks he had to carry out on

22     behalf of the Crisis Staff.  I told the Prosecution about that.  He had

23     to take care of Pretis.  That was the military task that had been

24     assigned to him when the mobilisation was carried out and he was to have

25     good neighbourly relationships with the Tihovici local commune.

Page 31708

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did Mr. Trifunovic have any military reasons to

 2     liberate Kobilja Glava?

 3        A.   No, by no means.  He had no such reasons.  And I am quite

 4     surprised that he gave such a statement to be quite frank.

 5        Q.   And were you attacked from the area of Kobilja Glava?

 6        A.   There were incessant attacks from Kobilja Glava.  The first one

 7     was the one launched on Pretis.  That was on the 18th or 19th of April,

 8     and then there were attacks from Betanija, and there were incessant

 9     attacks on the municipality as well on the Crisis Staff headquarters in

10     Kosinj and on the Hotel Park, and so on and so forth.  So this was

11     shelling from Kobilja Glava, Betanija, Ugorsko, I believe, and Ugljesici.

12     So for those reasons as I have just said, we frequently change our

13     location.  We would move elsewhere in order to avoid being hit by shells

14     and there were also attacks when a route was made from Pretis to Poljine

15     and our convoys were incessantly attacked, our convoys that were

16     transporting food and medicine for the population.  Then there were vans

17     that were transporting the civilians and the wounded which was also

18     attacked, and so on and so forth, but I can't remember all the details

19     because this happened a long time ago but that's what the situation was.

20        Q.   Thank you.  What I have mentioned is something that Mr. Tieger

21     showed you.  On page 57 he showed you a document from the session of the

22     Assembly.  It was dated the 14th of November.  Could we now have a look

23     at 65 ter 15746.  Could we see the first page in the English version.  Do

24     we agree that this was drafted on the 14th of November, 1992?  It's

25     regular combat report to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 31709

 1     You see the date at the top, sir?

 2        A.   Yes, see the date but I can't see the text.  I don't see what it

 3     is about.

 4        Q.   I will read it out to save time.  Paragraph 1 says:

 5             "The enemy periodically violated the agreed truce during the day

 6     with the most active attacks being towards Zuc and Orlic from the

 7     direction of Boljakov Potok and Kobilja Glava towards Vogosca.  A

 8     sabotage group the strength of a squad also penetrated that axis."

 9             How does this fit in with the information you have about the

10     activities in Kobilja Glava?

11        A.   There was such action all the time from Kobilja Glava and beyond,

12     and attacks were launched from Sarajevo against Zuc.  And on the

13     10th of July, 1992, the Muslim forces took Zuc.  They took the most

14     elevated position on Zuc which is Orlic, and they drove back our forces.

15     Zuc is inhabited exclusively by Serbs, and on that occasion they set fire

16     to Zuc and our territorial forces went further down 50 to 60 metres

17     further down and that is where they held that line.

18        Q.   Thank you.  With regard to these attacks from Kobilja Glava,

19     would that be the military reason for liberating Kobilja Glava regardless

20     of the fact that you didn't want to include it?

21             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  Multiple things wrong with it.  Number one,

22     first, it was asked and answered, and then when the accused got an answer

23     he didn't want, now he asks a leading question to the contrary.  So I

24     object to this approach once again.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber absolutely agrees with your observation.

Page 31710

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Very well, I'll rephrase the question.  I'll ask the following:

 3     Mr. Stanic, do you stand by what you said a little earlier that

 4     Mr. Trifunovic did not have any military reasons to go to Kobilja Glava?

 5        A.   I stand by that because he didn't even have the forces and in my

 6     opinion there would have been huge casualties amongst our people if he

 7     had.  That's my position.  Perhaps I'm mistaken, but there were reasons

 8     because from Betanija and Kobilja Glava there was incessant shelling of

 9     the Pretis neighbourhood and certainly between 30 and 40 people while I

10     was in Vogosca died in Pretis because of these attacks from

11     Kobilja Glava, but there were these reasons that it wasn't because of

12     Miladin Trifunovic.  It's just that there was an Operative Group that

13     could have done this because we didn't have sufficient men for such

14     purposes at the time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  At the level of the Vogosca Brigade or the corps was

16     a military attempt made to liberate Kobilja Glava at any point in time?

17        A.   No, this was never done.

18        Q.   Could this document please be admitted into evidence?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  No objection, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Next Defence exhibit.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 15746 receives number D2680,

23     Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 31711

 1        Q.   Mr. Stanic, when did you resign from your position as president

 2     of the municipality?

 3        A.   I resigned from my position as president of the municipality on

 4     the 14th of November, 1992.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you we briefly have a look at

 7     P5511.  Could we see the Serbian version, 1D20513; and the English

 8     version is P5511.  The handwritten version in the Serbian language is the

 9     other document I referred to.  Could we see the -- could we see 1D20513,

10     the typewritten version, in fact, in Serbian and we can keep the

11     translation on the screen.  Thank you.  The date is the 11th of November.

12     Could we now see -- the 14th of November.  I apologise.  Could we now see

13     page 6 in the Serbian version and it's probably the same page in the

14     English version.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Stanic, could you please read out the part where it says

17     "Stanisic."  It's the first line from the bottom just before

18     "Trifunovic."  Stanisic requests and says.

19        A.   Yes, yes, I can see it.

20        Q.   Could you read it out?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Please wait till we have the --

22     please wait till we have the English page.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you read it out loud.  First Stanisic and then Trifunovic

Page 31712

 1     and then the second Stanisic.

 2        A.   Stanisic:  He is addressing all the present and informing them

 3     that he is giving an irrevocable resignation.  He cannot sit in the

 4     municipal building and do nothing and be at the service of the army, so

 5     it is no wonder there is nothing in this municipality.  And then I

 6     suffered enough.  I do not want to be the president and you cannot retain

 7     me.  Mr. President, those aren't my actual words.  My actual words were

 8     quite different.  If I may, and I remember this to this day, I resigned

 9     for the simple reason that I wouldn't allow certain criminal activities

10     to take place.  I wouldn't allow combatants at the lines to be at the

11     lines for seven, eight dates and I wouldn't allow other people to enter

12     their flats and houses.  So I wanted to submit my resignation because

13     there was a previous agreement according to which the president of the

14     Executive Committee should be informed of his incorrect relationship to

15     the Assembly.  So they asked me to do this.  As the president of the

16     municipality I subjected myself to checks and then I told Mr. Rajko and

17     President Krajisnik, President Momcilo Krajisnik, I said this is what is

18     on the agenda.  I read it out.  Do you agree with it?  We do.  When I

19     read it out -- after I had read it out and when these items were to be

20     implemented we started firing on the President of the Executive Board --

21     well, then there was a dispute.

22        Q.   Very well.  Could we just stop here briefly.  You say that these

23     minutes, the interpretation of the person who took the minutes but does

24     it reflect what you in fact said, the substance of what you said; namely

25     that you wouldn't remain and that they couldn't retain you there?

Page 31713

 1        A.   I said I'm tendering my irrevocable resignation and then the

 2     president of the National Assembly, Mr. Krajisnik, intervened and said

 3     that I should postpone my resignation for a month until the

 4     Executive Board adopted a working programme and a report on its work.  He

 5     was supposed to do this in a timely manner.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   I apologise, Mr. President.  And then when Mr. Krajisnik

 8     intervened as well as the representatives who asked for me to stay on, I

 9     said, Very well, I'll postpone my resignation for a month until a new

10     Assembly is held and until a new report on work is drafted.  This has

11     nothing to do with what I now see before me.  This is the first time I

12     have seen it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 14 you were asked about the volunteers,

14     and you yourself mentioned the association that was concerned.  With

15     regard to payment for volunteers in the unit, was this in any way

16     different from the way in which conscripts who were called up were paid?

17        A.   No.  They had the same rights, the same salaries, the same

18     benefits and when they were wounded, the rights of their families were

19     enforced.  The rights of a killed soldier had the right to disability.

20     The families of those who had been killed had the rights to an allowance.

21        Q.   Did the municipality pay a paramilitary group of any kind?

22        A.   No.  Never as far as I know.  Never did it pay any paramilitary

23     groups.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Under the law, what are the competencies, if any, are

25     there on the municipality local commune, in terms of defence or a

Page 31714

 1     company?

 2        A.   What do you mean a company.

 3        Q.   Well, did large companies have a role to play?

 4        A.   Yes, for example, like the Pretis factory.  My organisation unit,

 5     the department of security within the company had between 60 and 80

 6     members who were armed.  Our manager was Risto Bajalo.  The people had

 7     their weapons.  Of course there was no artillery but infantry weapons.

 8        Q.   What about local communes and municipalities, did they have any

 9     competencies in the domain of defence?

10        A.   Yes.  All local communes which were members of municipalities had

11     a role to play in terms of securing their territory as part of the

12     overall system of Territorial Defence.

13        Q.   When a new municipality was established, what were its

14     obligations vis-a-vis Territorial Defence?

15        A.   New municipalities acted in accordance with the law which was in

16     place before the new municipality was formed.  If there were changes and

17     amendments to the law, then the municipalities and local communes had to

18     harmonise their statutes with those.  So the harmonisation of legal

19     regulations and tasks had to be carried out in a precise way.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Please bear with me.  You mentioned Pretis and its

21     defence role.  Could we have 1D6265.  During cross-examination it was

22     mentioned on page 53, line 11, the attack on Pretis.  1D6265.  That's it.

23     I will read out.  Is it the 18th of April the document?

24        A.   Well, the attack on Pretis was on the 17th or the 18th, whereas

25     here I see the 18th.  I always had a difficulty with -- with those two

Page 31715

 1     dates.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know the person who signed this document,

 3     Mevludin Alic, from the Secretariat of National Defence?

 4        A.   I did not.

 5        Q.   Were there still joint bodies in place at the time?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  This is a document of Bosnia-Herzegovina signed by a

 8     Muslim person; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Very well.  I'll read at -- well the top of the page is

11     everything clear?

12        A.   Yes, but I can't see the text itself well.

13        Q.   But what are the bodies mentioned in the heading?

14        A.   The town information centre in Sarajevo.  Subject, report, the

15     date is the 18th of April.  The number is 02/33, and then something I

16     can't read.

17        Q.   Very well.  So it was sent to the city information centre but who

18     sent it?

19        A.   Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Vogosca municipality, municipal

20     Secretariat for National Defence, information centre.

21        Q.   Was it still the joint municipality of Vogosca or the Muslim

22     municipality of Vogosca?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness's

24     answer.  There should be a pause.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your conversation just simply moves

Page 31716

 1     too fast for the interpreters to keep up.  Please put a pause again.  The

 2     answer of the witness was not heard by the interpreters.  Could we repeat

 3     from there.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   When I asked you if it was still the joint municipality or the

 6     Muslim municipality of Vogosca your answer was not heard.

 7        A.   It was the joint municipality.  The authorities comprised both

 8     Muslims and Serbs at the time.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Reading from the first paragraph at about 400 hours

10     in the morning on the 18th of April, 1992, a convoy of approximately ten

11     trucks came from the direction of Sarajevo and went through the front

12     entrance of Pretis disarming two security officers in the process.  The

13     trucks went on to the warehouse of the Kones basic organisation of

14     associated labour where ammunition was loaded on the trucks and which was

15     then taken towards the exit.  On the way to the exit they were attacked

16     by Pretis security officers and fighting ensued.  Inhabitants of Blagovac

17     local commune and Hotonj local commune subsequently joined the fighting.

18     All this happened between 600 and 630 hours.  Does the document reflect

19     what you had to say about the attack?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Whose trucks could have arrived from the direction of Sarajevo on

22     the 18th of April?

23        A.   What I kept repeating was that only the Patriotic League could

24     come from that direction.  It was a military formation of the SDA party.

25     They had their insignia and structure.  They were the ones who went

Page 31717

 1     through the gate.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  We can see that some inhabitants of Blagovac took

 3     part.  Who was in the majority there?

 4        A.   Blagovac has 98 per cent of Serbs.

 5        Q.   So we see the inhabitants of Hotonj taking part too.  Who was in

 6     the majority there?

 7        A.   Hotonj, well, some took part.  The majority population in Hotonj

 8     is Muslim.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I seek to tender this?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document -- document 1D6265 receives number

12     D2681, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Did you have a Serb paramilitary or any other kind of military

16     organisation in Vogosca at the time?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   What were your expectations of the JNA in that regard?  Please

19     pause.  What were your expectations on the part of the JNA?

20        A.   Well, I expected they would take prompt reaction, but only later

21     once Pretis had been defended they arrived taking over the gate and the

22     factory itself with a lieutenant-colonel.  It was around 1.30 or 2.00

23     when everything had already stopped, all the fighting.  It would have

24     been critical if the fighting had continued, because we did not have

25     enough strength to defend Pretis.  Otherwise, it would have been taken by

Page 31718

 1     the Patriotic League, the paramilitaries.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Overall, what were the expectations of Serbs in

 3     Vogosca given the fact that they did not have their own paramilitary

 4     unit?  What did they expect the JNA to do in case of attack?

 5        A.   In case of an attack, it had to strike speedily and timely,

 6     because it was a JNA facility and they were supposed to guard it, which

 7     is what they had done up until a certain time.  They had to react more

 8     quickly, but they didn't.  They only arrived before 2.00.  We called you

 9     and the late Koljevic and Krajisnik to take part so that the command

10     would provide reinforcements to secure Pretis as it was vital to the

11     population and Republika Srpska as well as Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We didn't

12     know things would develop that way.  We feared that it would fall in the

13     wrong hands because there was a lot of explosives there, and in case it

14     was taken over by the Patriotic League, it could have blown the whole

15     thing up.  It would have been a disaster.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You said you contacted me.  Could we have P5720.  It

17     was the same date, and we can see my reaction in it.  P5720.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I'm going to wait to look at the document, but this

20     may have been a time to rise and wonder exactly how this aspect of

21     redirect arises from cross.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from you, Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 53, I believe, there was a

24     question about the attack on Pretis.  My learned friend Mr. Tieger found

25     it necessary to check during his cross-examination some things from the

Page 31719

 1     statement.  The question had to do about the position of the first Serb

 2     leadership concerning the industrial facilities in Vogosca.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let us hear the question.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have the next

 5     page.  The 18th of April is the date.  Please take note.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The third or fourth line from the top, Radovan Karadzic is

 8     talking to Milutin Kukanjac.  Who was he?

 9        A.   General Milutin Kukanjac was the commander of the

10     Sarajevo Army District, as far as I recall and if I'm not mistaken.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So Karadzic:  As for Vogosca, please, do see what was

12     going on there.  Vikic and the Green Berets there are trying to take

13     Pretis to get ahold of the assets.

14             Kukanjac said:  That has to be stopped.

15             In the English it is at the bottom of the page.

16             So he said:  It must be stopped.

17             Could we go to the next page in the English.

18             In the Serbian Karadzic says:  Our people there are defending it.

19     We're working on it.

20             Kukanjac said:  Let them defend it.

21             Can we have the next page in the Serbian version.

22             Karadzic says:  Could there be a buffer zone between them?

23             Kukanjac says:  Let's see.  We are in contact with them with this

24     Koprivica person to see what's going on.

25             Karadzic said:  So please send someone.  They're afraid of the

Page 31720

 1     military.  Let there be a buffer zone between them.  The military is

 2     welcome here in that sense.

 3             Does this tally with what you know about our expectations on the

 4     army part?

 5        A.   Yes, it does.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  I've made this objection repeatedly.  This is

 8     clearly a pattern.  So Dr. Karadzic shows the witness a document he

 9     clearly hasn't seen before and it takes clearly the form of a leading

10     question.  He needs to lay a foundation.  It's difficult to understand in

11     any event how a document like this is going to be successfully used in

12     the course of redirect but certainly not in this manner to lead the

13     witness through this document and just simply ask him to affirm aspects

14     of it that tally with what the accused wants him to say.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have an answer?

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm convinced that this

19     arises from cross-examination about the nature of the attack and our

20     intents with the industrial facilities in Vogosca.  In terms of the

21     basis, I put a question --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger is not challenging that -- the fact that

23     you are entitled to ask and put -- pose questions with respect to the

24     attack on Pretis.  He was challenging the way you're posing the

25     questions.

Page 31721

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seemed to me that Mr. Tieger

 2     disputed the foundation.  I can't find it, in which line, but in any

 3     case, I will refrain from --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Without leading -- putting some foundational

 5     questions or -- if you put this document to the witness and ask a

 6     question whether it's consistent with his understanding, that's a

 7     typically -- a leading question.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have determined the foundation,

 9     because there was the issue of attack on Pretis and our intentions with

10     Pretis, because that was touched upon in cross-examination.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   My question is:  What do you have to say about this conversation

13     of mine with General Kukanjac?

14        A.   It is my opinion that you acted correctly.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me.  Sorry.

16             JUDGE KWON:  He answered that question a while ago.  Shall we

17     move on, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Very well.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You were asked about the bunker.  You were also asked about the

21     Sonjas.  And you said you didn't know about the bunker.  What is this

22     Sonja's place?  Can you repeat that for us?

23        A.   It used to be called the Kon Tiki motel, which had five rooms and

24     a restaurant.  It's a motel.  It was called Sonja's or Kon Tiki.  It was

25     owned by Sonja.  The Crisis Staff was in communication with her son

Page 31722

 1     Zeljko Beganovic at some point in time asking that the facility be made

 2     available for us.  I don't know whether he was present there at the time.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have P2398.

 4     Could we please zoom in and have the English version.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Is this the motel, and why did the Crisis Staff want to have the

 7     motel at its disposal, to house which institution?

 8        A.   It's an order.  We see that the motel was called Kon Tiki, and it

 9     was owned by Sonja.  It was provided to the public security station of

10     Vogosca municipality and to the TO.  So it was requested that premises be

11     made available in order to bring in and question certain persons.

12        Q.   Do you distinguish between prison and detention unit?

13        A.   Yes, as I have said, we never had the appropriate conditions for

14     prison but a detention unit is temporary and from that unit we would send

15     people on to Kula for further processing.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Who carried out those investigations in Kon Tiki?

17        A.   Lawyers as a whole with Zdravko Luketa and I think the prison

18     warden.  I don't really know who the interviewer or interrogator was,

19     Mr. Vlaco Spiro.  I don't know.  I can't remember, but it was a judicial

20     authority who was involved in the interrogations.

21        Q.   What was the comfort like in Kon Tiki?

22        A.   It was good.  There were four or five rooms there, double beds.

23     There was a restaurant on the ground floor 11 [as interpreted] with all

24     the facilities and there were rooms on the floors.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Does this order state that some sort of a bunker is

Page 31723

 1     to be commandeered?

 2        A.   No.  This order has nothing to do with the bunker.

 3        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber whose name is printed there?  Well,

 4     you can see it.  Could you tell them who signed it?

 5        A.   On behalf of the president it was signed by Slavko Jovanovic, and

 6     Jovan Tintor was the president of the Crisis Staff and this was of the

 7     Crisis Staff.  This was the decision taken.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  As for the municipal authorities in conditions of war

 9     when there is an imminent threat of war, do they have the right to

10     commandeer certain facilities, features for the authorities?

11        A.   Yes.  This is regulated by the law.  They can temporarily

12     commandeer certain facilities to be used for certain purposes.

13        Q.   Although you were not involved in this as you have said, as far

14     as you knew after interrogations and investigations had been carried out,

15     what were the possible outcomes?  What might happen to the detainees?

16        A.   After the interrogations had been completed, well, I wasn't

17     involved in that process, but it was always said that if there was no

18     proof that someone had been involved in some kind of a crime or

19     misdemeanour that person would be released.  If there were any

20     indications that a crime had been committed then these people would be

21     transferred to the Kula two or three days later when it was possible.

22        Q.   Could we see P2367, please.  Could you please have a look at this

23     list of detained Muslims and tell us whether there is women among these

24     names?

25        A.   I can't see.  Let me just have a look.  Just a moment.  No,

Page 31724

 1     there -- there is no woman there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you count how many of them were there?

 3        A.   One two, three, nine, I think.

 4        Q.   And to the right?

 5        A.   To the right, to the right, the names to the left, I can't see

 6     them, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Have a look at the English version.

 8        A.   The English version I can't see anything to the left.

 9        Q.   Is there a Besirevic on the right-hand side?

10        A.   Besirevic, no.  Yes, yes, there is a Besirevic.  I do apologise.

11     Eleven, 12, 15.  There are 15.

12        Q.   And they were released for how many Serbs?

13        A.   Two or three -- three Serbs.  In exchange for three Serbs.

14        Q.   Was this an exception or was it quite usual for us to give more

15     for less?

16        A.   Well, we always released more of them.  Whenever they would

17     register for an exchange, Luketa made certain proposals to that effect.

18     I think that he said if anyone wants to leave and go to Vogosca they

19     should go.  They gave three in exchange.  Whether this was an exception

20     or not, I don't know.  I believe it was an exception.  I can't remember

21     the -- but the decision was that the exchanges should be on the

22     one-for-one basis, but this -- in this case this number of persons was

23     exchanged for three persons.

24        Q.   I just have another question.  At the republican town and

25     municipal level was there commission for exchanges?

Page 31725

 1        A.   Yes, there was a commission for exchanges on all these levels on

 2     the town level, on the republican level, on the municipal level.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stanic for your testimony.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I have no

 5     further questions.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Stanic.  On behalf

 8     of the Chamber I thank you for coming to The Hague to give it.  Now

 9     you're free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  If you

11     would allow me to shake the President's hand, it would be an honour for

12     me.  If not, well ...

13             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Thank you, Mr. Stanic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             THE ACCUSED:  Excellencies, I would like to address you for a few

16     minutes and then I see time probably we should start with the next

17     witness next morning.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to apologise

22     for my reaction.  However, I have to say that it's -- this legal system

23     is a significant problem for all of us.  This system in which various

24     skills are allowed for the Prosecution, that wouldn't be permissible in

25     our system.  And one of the significant problems that this Tribunal is

Page 31726

 1     facing will be the fact that we are subjected to a judicial system that

 2     doesn't resemble anything that is familiar to us.  And therefore these

 3     skills of trying to outfox someone while the accused is sitting here,

 4     well, for us it's strange.  I know it's allowed here, but in our system

 5     it's not permissible to twist a question and obtain a positive answer to

 6     such a question, because no witness is sufficiently concentrated to be

 7     able to -- to see when the Prosecution is acting in a cunning manner.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't agree with your observation at all,

 9     Mr. Karadzic.  If I can simply react to that.  If you're not capable of

10     coping with the Defence, Mr. Harvey is there to take up the case if

11     necessary.

12             Judge Morrison has a point for you, Mr. Karadzic.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, at the risk of taking more time than I

14     intended, I have several points.

15             It's not that difficult in reality, Dr. Karadzic.  The first and

16     most basic point is that re-examination must relate to an issue raised in

17     cross-examination.  Either it does or it does not, and you are well

18     capable of determining that.

19             Secondly, you must ask non-leading foundation questions before

20     you put a document to a witness that hasn't previously been before him or

21     her.  If the witness has no knowledge of that document or the matters

22     contained within it, there is almost certainly no proper basis for

23     adducing that document in re-examination or indeed at all.  If, as has

24     happened several times, you ask a question and do not like the answer,

25     that is, I fear, the dilemma of an advocate in any system.  What you

Page 31727

 1     cannot do is to put a leading question or comment to try and get the

 2     witness to agree with the material being subsequently fed to him or her.

 3     Not only is that improper, the Court is very unlikely to give any

 4     favourable response to material that comes before it in that way; it is,

 5     therefore, a waste of time.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Judge Baird also has a point.

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Dr. Karadzic, I just want to add just a small bit

 8     to what Judge Morrison has said.

 9             I don't think it's fair to Mr. Tieger to say that he's acting in

10     a cunning manner - I don't think so at all - and he was trying to outfox

11     someone whilst you were sitting there.  I think I apprehend what

12     Mr. Tieger was insisting on is that you ask questions that are governed

13     by the rules of re-examination.  I think that was the main thrust of

14     his -- of his objection.  I don't think he was acting in a cunning manner

15     at all.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I absolutely do agree, and I do

17     accept that, but my apology has to do with my reaction in the course of

18     the cross-examination.  Why was I upset?  I called this military cunning,

19     but it wasn't derogatory.  In this system it's permissible to try and

20     outfox someone.  That's not permissible in our system.  The judge would

21     immediately warn someone if that person was trying to confuse the

22     witness.  But what has been said about redirect, well, I absolutely

23     accept all of that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And in the future, please bear in mind what I have

25     said during the hearing, that before you make your submission, please let

Page 31728

 1     us know that you have an objection.

 2             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President, but just one last thing.

 4     Dr. Karadzic is referring, I believe, to a particular question during

 5     cross-examination.  It is inconceivable that there is a distinction

 6     between the adversarial system and the continental system in trying to

 7     get at the truth, and when an examiner asks a witness whether or not the

 8     language that appears in a particular document in fact is a reference to

 9     something that's not explicitly mentioned, that's entirely fair.  The

10     suggestion that Dr. Karadzic repeatedly makes that there is some

11     fundamental distinction between those two systems which handicaps him

12     here is, I think, patently untrue.  Both system try in their own way to

13     get at the truth.  That's all that I was trying to do here, as I believe

14     the Court could see, and I must say this is the first time I've ever been

15     the object of an apology that insisted I was being cunning.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  The point is well taken, Mr. Tieger.  Perhaps

17     you would prefer to be known as the silver fox.

18             MR. TIEGER:  I will take that in mind and hope that's the last

19     time I hear it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just for planning purposes, is it still the case

21     Mr. Vujasin's testimony is fixed on Thursday?

22             MR. TIEGER:  It is, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So it's not possible to hear -- to start him

24     tomorrow.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, that is correct.

Page 31729

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Given the time, we will adjourn for

 2     today and resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.40 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day

 5                           of December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.