Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31730

 1                           Wednesday, 19 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Would the witness take the solemn

 9     declaration, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN SOJIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Sojic.  Please be seated and make

15     yourself comfortable.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, your Excellencies.

18     Good morning to everyone.

19                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sojic.

21        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Did you give a statement to the Defence team?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I have to ask you to make a pause between questions and answers,

25     because it's not easy for the interpreters, and we need everything to be

Page 31731

 1     recorded in the transcript.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I see 1D6721 on the screen,

 3     please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is this the statement that you gave to the Defence team?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Have you read through the statement and signed it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you here today, would the

10     substance of your answers be the same?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

14     tender this statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, with respect to the associated

16     exhibits, there are two listed and both are already admitted.

17             JUDGE KWON:  What's the exhibit number for 1496?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  D2675.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, while there's no objection from the

22     Prosecution, the Chamber notes that some -- some part of the para 23

23     relates only tu quoque evidence, not relevant to the indictment, so the

24     Chamber will order to delete the part starting from "The first serious

25     attacks on the Serbs in Pofalic, "to the end the paragraph.  With that

Page 31732

 1     redaction, the Chamber will admit the 92 ter statement.  Shall we give

 2     the number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D6721 becomes Exhibit D2683.

 4     Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would now like to

 7     read out a summary of Mr. Dragan Sojic's statement in English.

 8             [In English] Dragan Sojic was born on 10th of November, 1961, in

 9     Majur, Sabac municipality, Republic of Serbia.  He completed secondary

10     school for civil engineering and graduated from the faculty of

11     architecture in Sarajevo.  Having graduated, he worked as a trainee

12     architect in the Dom design office in Sarajevo.  Before the war, he

13     worked at the secretary of the secretariat for urban development, housing

14     and public utilities at the Novo Sarajevo municipality and was a member

15     of the Executive Committee of the municipality, which is municipal

16     government.  Between late June 1992 and December 1993, Mr. Sojic was on

17     the VRS defence line at the Jewish Cemetery in Sarajevo.

18             In early 1990, the Muslims established the SDA followed by the

19     Croats establishing the HDZ, providing the Serbs with a powerful motive

20     to establish the SDS in July 1990.  The work of the party was public and

21     transparent and the decisions were taken in a democratic atmosphere.

22     Dragan Sojic knew that the SDS policy was not to remove Bosnian Muslims

23     or -- and Croats permanently from BH territory by means of genocide,

24     persecution, extermination, killings, deportation, and inhumane acts.

25             The SDS won in the Novo Sarajevo municipality.  A coalition was

Page 31733

 1     created between the three parties.  However, the SDS appointed a member

 2     of the SDA into the position of president as a sign of goodwill.  The

 3     coalition operated well until the adoption of the decision of the

 4     independence on BH as the Serbs were out-voted and therefore the Assembly

 5     of the Serbian people in BH was constituted.

 6             A problem in Novo Sarajevo arose due to the sudden illegal

 7     construction of the many residential and other buildings in the

 8     municipality, which was replicated around Sarajevo.  A large number of

 9     Muslims settled in these houses.  However, the issue could not be

10     resolved as there was no support from the Muslim part of the authorities.

11             Dragan Sojic was aware of the military organisation and arming of

12     the Muslims and Croats in Novo Sarajevo as he would see groups of Muslims

13     hiding weapons under their jackets.  He was also aware that they had

14     their own Crisis Staff that organised the barricades in Sarajevo.

15             Dragan Sojic knew that the Serbian Municipal Assemblies were

16     established because the Muslims and Croats were preparing for war against

17     the Serbs.  Crisis Staffs in Serbian municipalities were formed and

18     assumed all the prerogatives and duties of Municipal Assemblies when they

19     were unable to convene.  The commissioners of the staffs were tasked with

20     trying to establish a rule of law in all Serbian municipalities.

21             War Presidencies were established in municipalities because an

22     imminent threat of war was declared and their task was to preserve the

23     rule of law and normal life under these circumstances.  The presidencies

24     were not a means for the persecution and destruction of the citizens of

25     Muslim and Croatian nationalities.  Wartime commissions also existed,

Page 31734

 1     headed by republican commissioners to normalise life and meet the

 2     humanitarian needs in the territory.

 3             The city of Sarajevo was divided by the barricades, and this made

 4     it impossible for Dragan Sojic to travel to work.  After these had been

 5     erected, inter-ethnic intolerance increased and Serbs locked themselves

 6     in their houses at dusk and gunfire could be heard coming from the

 7     direction of Muslim homes.  The Serbian population organised themselves

 8     to stand guard at night and collect weaponry.

 9             The first serious attacks on Serbs began in May.  Muslim units

10     carried out attack --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED:  -- but it is redacted.  I see.

13             To Dragan Sojic's knowledge, there were no prisoner of war

14     camps -- no prisoners or camps for prisoners of war or collection centres

15     in Novo Sarajevo and no instructions were received from the organs of the

16     Republika Srpska to organise any.  Mr. Sojic was also not aware of any

17     paramilitary units that existed in Novo Sarajevo.  However, measures were

18     taken -- control all those who were not official formations.  At the

19     beginning of the war in the chaos, looting, thefts, robbery and murder

20     did occur.

21             There was no discrimination on ethnic grounds when humanitarian

22     aid was distributed.  All citizens had access to public institutions but

23     their freedom of movement was limited by the Muslim forces whose members

24     were situated on a high-rise buildings and constantly using sniper

25     rifles, shells, et cetera, and killed civilians who moved across exposed

Page 31735

 1     areas.  A large number of civilians, including women, children, and the

 2     elderly were killed in this way during the war.

 3             In 1994, Dragan Sojic was president of the staff for the movement

 4     of civilians.  This staff received requests from individuals to cross

 5     into Muslim-controlled areas and made a list of those whose requests were

 6     granted and sent them through SFOR, UNPROFOR, to the Muslim side for

 7     approval.  This ensured conditions for the population to move safely from

 8     one part of the city to another.

 9             [Interpretation] That would be the summary.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I just have one comment to make in relation to

11     the summary.  I appreciate that they don't have evidentiary value, but

12     the summary included the statement that Dragan Sojic knew that the SDS

13     policy was not to remove Bosnian Muslims or Croats permanently by means

14     of genocide, persecution, et cetera.

15             What the statement actually says at paragraph 19, is:

16             "I do not know - I have never heard that the civilian authorities

17     at the regional or local level ... planned, instigated, ordered or

18     assisted in the permanent removal...," and I think those are two quite

19     different statements.  And, again, I appreciate there's no evidentiary

20     value, but these summaries are read out for the benefit of the public,

21     and I think it's important that the public be given an accurate summary

22     of the evidence.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 31736

 1        Q.   Mr. Sojic, I'd like to ask you about some possible corrections

 2     that cropped up in the course of the proofing note with the Defence team.

 3     In paragraph 7 you spoke about the change of the authorities in the

 4     Novo Sarajevo municipality.  Could you tell us when Mr. Radan was elected

 5     as a member of the Municipal Executive Committee and when Mr. Prijic was

 6     elected to that committee.

 7        A.   Mr. President, in March the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo

 8     was established.  That was a founding Assembly and not all the organs

 9     were elected there.  Dr. Milivoje Prijic as the president was elected

10     somewhat later, as well as Branko Radan as the president of the

11     Executive Committee.  They were elected at the following Assembly, at the

12     following Assembly that was held in Lukavica.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 9, did you confirm in the presence of

14     the Defence team that -- or, rather, according to your information, the

15     SDS in Novo Sarajevo municipality, did it function in an independent

16     manner, and what sort of links did it have, or what was the nature of the

17     links that it had with the SDS central office?

18        A.   The executive -- the municipal executive in Novo Sarajevo was in

19     no way different from any others.  The SDS functioned on democratic

20     principles and that was also the case for the SDS in Novo Sarajevo.  So

21     it was fully autonomous when it had to take decisions within the

22     Executive Committee, and this had certain implications for the officials

23     appointed in the municipality itself.  Paragraph 9, the claims there can

24     be confirmed by me or supported by many examples that I could provide.

25     If you remember, the office for revenue had to be -- belonged to someone

Page 31737

 1     else.  The Municipal Committee of Novo Sarajevo had a decision that was

 2     different to the decision taken by the urban committee, so a woman

 3     remained working at that post.  Her name was Dobrinka Gavrilovic.  If I

 4     remember this correctly, that was her name.

 5             That's not the only example.  Mr. President, if you remember

 6     this, when the president was elected to the Executive Committee, to the

 7     Executive Board, one of the candidates who tried to impose a member to

 8     the President was Asin Kubina [phoen], and he was fully appropriate

 9     according to his qualifications for that position, but the

10     Municipal Board decided that Zarko Djurovic should be appointed to that

11     post.  And if you remember, we did not accept that -- we didn't want

12     anyone to impose such a solution when it came to staff at the time.  This

13     concerned the local level.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sojic.  With regard to paragraph 24, could you

15     tell us where you were, in which unit of the VRS?

16        A.   When I returned from Montenegro, as it says -- it says in my

17     statement why I left there.  After Pofalici fell, after I lost my home, I

18     had an invalid father.  And my wife and mother, I took them to my sister,

19     and I returned to Novo Sarajevo.  So conscript, I reported there.  I

20     received an assignment.  I was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, the

21     3rd Company of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.  My commander, my company

22     commander, was Mr. Slavko Aleksic.

23        Q.   What was the nature of that unit?  Was it a paramilitary unit?

24     Were they volunteers?  What sort of relationship did it have with the

25     VRS?

Page 31738

 1        A.   I was the only volunteer in that unit at that time, because I

 2     came from another part of town, from the right bank of Miljacka to the

 3     left bank of Miljacka.  All the other people were inhabitants of

 4     Kovacici.  I have Mr. Aleksic in mind, in fact.  Before the war he worked

 5     for the post office in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he lived in Kovacici.  So

 6     he stayed on to defend his home as did all the other men in the unit.  It

 7     wasn't characteristic in any particular way.  It wasn't special.  Our

 8     company wasn't specific, apart from the fact that it was decisive and

 9     wanted to defend at any costs the population and property in

10     Novo Sarajevo.  We didn't want enemy units to be allowed to penetrate the

11     Jewish Cemetery.

12             As far as Slavko Aleksic is concerned and his physical

13     appearance, because many people have associations in relation to his

14     name, well, he's a man of exceptional qualities.  He is an honourable

15     officer, member of the military, and for private reasons, since I've

16     known him I knew him a year or two before the war, he had long hair, a

17     beard.  I haven't seen him for a long time, but he still has the same

18     appearance now.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Was Mr. Aleksic close to the SDS at some point in

20     time and at some other point in time to some other party?

21        A.   Slavko Aleksic, up until the beginning of the war was also a

22     member of the Municipal Board or the local board in Kovacici, and when

23     the war broke out, he put his work in the party on hold, and later he

24     became close to the radicals.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any information about certain criminals

Page 31739

 1     in your rear in Grbavica, behind your lines?  Have you heard about Batko?

 2        A.   Yes.  I've heard that name Batko.  I'm not sure whether I know

 3     what his real name is, what his surname is.  I have never seen him.  But

 4     we weren't indifferent when we heard his name, because he is the way he

 5     was.  He was a potential threat for all the inhabitants of Grbavica or

 6     Novo Sarajevo regardless of their ethnicity.  To be quite frank, when my

 7     wife came from Montenegro, she was pregnant.  It wasn't easy for me to be

 8     at the lines and to leave her alone.  So it was with relief that we heard

 9     the news that spread rapidly amongst the soldiers that Batko was to be

10     arrested and processed.  I don't know what happened to him, but soon

11     afterwards he disappeared and no longer showed himself in Grbavica.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 25 of your statement with regard to the

13     blue routes, I'd like to ask you what these routes are, when they were

14     opened and what the importance of these routes was.

15        A.   As a result of an agreement at the republican level and through

16     the intermediary of the UN, the blue routes were opened to make it

17     possible to move around freely.  The Novo -- Novo Sarajevo was designated

18     through their will as one of the destinations where the blue routes were

19     to be opened up over the Bratstvo and Jedinstvo bridge.  Since this was

20     in our territory in the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo -- or,

21     rather, the Serbian Municipality of Novo Sarajevo, its president

22     appointed a staff for the movement of civilians.  As a member of the

23     civilian authorities I was also the president of the staff.  The movement

24     of civilians, and the staff consisted of the following:  One of the

25     members was a military security officer.  Another member was the chief of

Page 31740

 1     the public security station, of the police station, in fact.  There was

 2     also a member of the commission for exchanges was present.  This was for

 3     the exchange of information.  And I think that someone from the border

 4     police was also a member.

 5             Our role was the following:  Citizens who wanted to visit another

 6     part of town, who expressed the wish to visit another part of town should

 7     submit a written request.  We would examine it, and then through SFOR we

 8     had to send lists to the Muslim side and they did the same.  People who

 9     received authorisation from the other side, because there were double

10     checks, could cross over for a certain period of time from 12.00 or 2.00

11     to 4.00, I think.  To be frank, that bridge didn't function every day.

12     That connection didn't function every day because there were frequent

13     incidents and fire would be frequently opened on the opposite side, and

14     as a result that bridge would be closed for security reasons.

15             If this is of any importance, we tried to act democratically.  To

16     the extent it was possible, we wanted to have an impartial staff working

17     for the citizens, but on the Muslim side it was different, because our

18     counterpart was the MUP, police -- a police body, and when we're dealing

19     with freedom of movement, I don't think this is quite right.

20        Q.   Thank you.  When you say "visits," does that mean that some were

21     returning and were there any requests for a longer term or permanent

22     departure to the other side?

23        A.   We did not receive requests that had to do with resettlement or

24     choosing a place to stay.  All the requests exclusively, because there

25     was a section there, reasons for going, everybody would write visit to

Page 31741

 1     friends, visit to family, medical treatment, and so on and so forth,

 2     although there were cases that individuals from both sides when they were

 3     crossing would actually stay on the side that they would be visiting.

 4     More frequently it was the case that people would cross a number of

 5     times.  I recall the Vjekoslava Sankovic, a professor who had an old

 6     mother in Sarajevo.  She was a Croat.  Some -- she crossed several times

 7     to visit her mother, to take her some food, medicines, and so on, and she

 8     wasn't the only such case.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 8, you talk about Crisis Staffs.  Are

10     you able to tell the Chamber when the first Crisis Staff was established

11     in Novo Sarajevo and which party established it, and was there a special

12     Municipal Staff of the municipality founded when it began to work?

13        A.   The first Crisis Staff in Novo Sarajevo was formed by the

14     Party for Democratic Action.  After that, the

15     Croatian Democratic Community formed a Crisis Staff and then while

16     estimating or evaluating the security situation in the municipality, and

17     I'm talking about this pre-war period because of some excess situations

18     and the complexity of the situation and the fast developing events as a

19     response to such a political security situation and in a way following

20     the example of our neighbours, Croats and Muslims, the Municipal Board of

21     the Novo Sarajevo municipality formed its own Crisis Staff.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And at some point did the Serbian municipality form a

23     municipal Crisis Staff and not a party Crisis Staff as an organ of power

24     or authority, and when was this?

25        A.   Well, this was already at the time when we were instructed to

Page 31742

 1     form Crisis Staffs by the government.  I cannot remember exactly the

 2     date, but I do know that in the functional sense, except for perhaps a

 3     couple of members of the previous Crisis Staff, the membership was the

 4     same as in the Crisis Staff that we already had.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that you were at the founding session

 6     of the SDS, and then you talked about the coalition of these three

 7     parties?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And were you at the founding Assembly of the SDS on the

10     12th of July, 1990?

11        A.   Yes.  It was St. Peter's Day, and this took place in Skenderija,

12     yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And do you recall who were the invited guests of our

14     partners and who addressed the participants at the Assembly?

15        A.   Representatives of the other ethnic groups were at that Assembly,

16     and sincerely speaking, the Serbian people on the whole were relieved

17     after the Serbian Democratic Party was formed.  Previously, the HDZ was

18     formed, which was the pillar of the political power of the Croatian

19     people, and then after that the Party of Democratic Action was formed.

20     The Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina were expecting or awaiting to see

21     what would happen with the entire Serb corps in the political sense.

22     What made me particularly happy at this founding Assembly was when our

23     guests, representatives of the other peoples, voiced their support for

24     the establishment of the Serbian Democratic Party and at the same time

25     expressed their resolve to remain in Yugoslavia, and this togetherness,

Page 31743

 1     which was a specific feature of Sarajevo, was a kind of hope that the

 2     winds of war partially due to the political will and because of what the

 3     representatives of the three peoples was saying would not engulf

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And that was one of the reasons because when these

 5     issues were on the agenda, we were on the same wavelength.  We formed a

 6     coalition and were fighting against the Communist rule from the previous

 7     regime.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D06722, please.

10     It's a video-clip.  We need to look at this in Sanction.  1D06722 from

11     0.54.47.  It's not subtitled, but the interpreters have the transcript.

12     1D06722.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back a little bit to the

15     beginning.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have a copy of

17     the transcript.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the beginning,

19     and if possible can this interpreted to the participants.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] I invite and call

22     Mr. Muhamed Filipovic to address the Assembly."

23             Interpret's note:  We do not have the transcript.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I was just told that interpreters do

25     not have the transcript.  It's only one page I see from the e-court.  Why

Page 31744

 1     don't we print it out and then provide them now.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that this was already

 3     done.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime while we are doing that, for the

 5     record, Mr. Sojic, it's at transcript page 11, line 24, could you tell us

 6     the name of the Croat professor who crossed the front line several times?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was professor,

 8     Vjekoslava Sankovic, a woman who crossed the bridge several times to

 9     visit her mother who was elderly and ill in Sarajevo.  I think she went

10     only to visit her and to take her some food and medicines.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I asked it because her name was not

12     correctly reflected in the transcript.  And while we are waiting,

13     Mr. Karadzic, can we see the last sentence of paragraph 15 which reads,

14     I quote -- shall we switch to Sanction -- no, no to e-court.  End of

15     paragraph:

16             "The War Presidency was not a means for the persecution and

17     destruction of the citizens of Muslim and Croatian nationalities."

18             I noted that you also include this in your summary, but could you

19     ask the witness what he meant by this statement, and in what context he

20     said this?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, did you hear the question by His Honour?

23        A.   I heard the question, but I would like to see it on the screen,

24     that part of my statement.

25        Q.   Yes.  Can we then look at paragraph 15, please.

Page 31745

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Paragraph 15.  Next page.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, in both versions it's the

 3     following page.  Can we zoom in a little bit, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This last sentence, what did you mean when you said that?  What

 6     made you state this?

 7        A.   The previous assertion a couple of sentences before had a

 8     consequence of this conclusion that the War Presidency was not a means

 9     for the persecution and destruction of the citizens of Muslim and

10     Croatian nationalities, because it was the duty of the War Presidency in

11     imminent danger of war to contribute to the normalisation of the life of

12     all citizens in the area of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

13             In view of the fact that we never discriminated or differentiated

14     among the citizens by their ethnic affiliation, I felt that it was

15     necessary for me to point out that the War Presidency was not a means to

16     be used for the persecution or destruction of the citizens of Muslim and

17     Croatian ethnicity.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And if this is a

19     satisfactory answer, perhaps we can continue.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I'll leave it at that.  Shall we continue with

21     the video now.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Allow me to welcome you on behalf

24     of myself and on behalf of the organisation I am representing.  I am

25     pleased that after 50 years I can address you by your real name.  To

Page 31746

 1     address you by your real name.  Before, we were addressed as working

 2     people and citizens or this or that, and our names are historical names

 3     which directed our lives, to overcome various powers and charismas of our

 4     history were not legal and could not be mentioned in our political and

 5     public life.  Let's hope that that is now the end of it, and I am

 6     extremely, extremely happy that I can greet you this way.

 7             "I would like to say also that we all felt a great relief in the

 8     fact that the Serbian nation in Bosnia and Herzegovina has decided to

 9     create and to express its political will in the way that it transpires

10     from its nature and its own history.  Be assured that we will respect

11     your will and that between us there will be no anti-Serbian attitude.

12              "This was not left to us by our forbearers.  I do not want to

13     talk now about a number of examples of mutual respect and consideration,

14     but what I want to say and what is true without doubt is that we are

15     people from the same creator, of the same qualities.  We are people with

16     the same language, we are on the same land with a common future, and it

17     obliges us to make mutual agreements and to take care of each other, to

18     take care of this common Bosnia and Herzegovina of ours and common

19     Yugoslavia.

20              "For that reason, I salute you, and I wish you a very happy

21     beginning on this day, and even better continuation.  Good luck."

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember this address by

24     Professor Muhamed Filipovic?

25        A.   Yes, I do.  Earlier when I was saying that as glad as we were

Page 31747

 1     that the SDS was formed, we were also very appreciative of the support of

 2     the officials from the other political parties of the other two peoples,

 3     and this -- what finally resulted in this coalition at the local level

 4     until it came to that part which Mr. Filipovic referred to as well, and

 5     that was the out-voting of the Serbian people, and it was a disregard for

 6     the will of the Serbian people.

 7        Q.   And -- thank you.  And did Professor Filipovic stand by this

 8     commitment to preserve Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia, and was he

 9     the one who initiated the agreement between the Serbs and Muslims in

10     1991?

11        A.   Yes.  And it wasn't only Professor Filipovic.  It was the

12     Bosnian Muslim political organisation at whose head he was.  That idea of

13     preserving Yugoslavia and unity in Bosnia and Herzegovina was present in

14     the SDA party as well.  The public is aware that even at key moments,

15     Mr. Muhamed Cengic at one point in time as an expression of goodwill of

16     the SDS [as interpreted] party's policy expressed his readiness and

17     commitment for the survival within Yugoslavia and then a couple of days

18     later Mr. Alija Izetbegovic forced him literally to lie and to make a

19     strong turn against this common aspiration which then led to the war.

20             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much,

21     Mr. Sojic.  At this point I have no further questions for you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 4, it should say SDA, SDA.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we please -- I would like

Page 31748

 1     to tender this excerpt from the SDS Assembly.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.  Shall we give the next Defence

 3     exhibit number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D6722 becomes Exhibit D2684.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             Mr. Sojic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief has been

 8     admitted into evidence in most part in writing in lieu of your oral

 9     testimony, and now you will be cross-examined by the representative of

10     the Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. Gustafson.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Sojic.  I just want to start by clarifying --

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Start by clarifying some details about your involvement in

16     various organs at various times.

17             At paragraph 23 of your statement, you said that after the

18     erection of the barricades, you couldn't access the seat of the

19     Crisis Staff in Lukavica, and you stayed at your house in Pofalici.  And

20     the barricades, they were erected in early March, I understand.  So from

21     early March your evidence is you could not access the seat of the

22     Crisis Staff, and you stayed at your house; is that right?

23        A.   No.  No.  It wasn't quite like that.  The barricades which

24     started to crop up in early March at different time periods were of

25     different intensity and placed in different locations so that the daily

Page 31749

 1     situation dictated which part of the town would be passable and which

 2     would not.  What is certain is that from April onwards, it was not

 3     possible to cross from one side to the other, because the Rad utility

 4     company, which was a local enterprise at the city level, and its director

 5     was Mr. Mirsad Kebo, a cadre of the SDA, put up heavy concrete blocks

 6     using machinery on the bridges which were in the Novo Sarajevo

 7     municipality.  Now I'm talking about the area of Novo Sarajevo

 8     municipality.  These blocks were placed on the Vodopriveda bridge, the

 9     brotherhood and unit bridge.  So it was not possible, regardless of the

10     security situation, physically to cross from one part of the city to the

11     other.

12        Q.   Okay.  So starting in March you had some difficulty accessing the

13     seat of the Crisis Staff in Lukavica and from April onwards you were no

14     longer able to access the seat of the Crisis Staff in Lukavica; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So is it right, then, that from April onwards, you did not

18     personally participate in the work of the Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff or

19     other municipal organs?

20        A.   I cannot really recall not being able to cross to the other side,

21     although I doubt it.  It was too much of a risk to cross from Pofalici to

22     Vrace.

23        Q.   Okay.  So as far as you can recall, you did not personally

24     participate in the work of any municipal organs from April onwards; is

25     that right?

Page 31750

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And then from the 16th of May to late June you were in

 3     Montenegro; is that right?

 4        A.   No.  On the 16th of May, I left Pofalici, crossing the Zuc Hill.

 5     From there with my family, and I mentioned earlier that my father was an

 6     invalid, I crossed to the Ilidza municipality because of the war actions

 7     in the area of the city.  We stayed there for a few days.  When the first

 8     opportunity appeared to transfer my family to Serbia, I did it from

 9     Ilidza.  It was in a refrigerator truck.  My wife, my mother, and my

10     invalid father, we went into this refrigerator truck, and we went via

11     Pale to Uzice, and then from Uzice we took the train to Bar.  So this

12     trek through Republika Srpska perhaps took four or five days.  And then I

13     came back in late June from Bar again through Serbia.  I came back to

14     Novo Sarajevo, and I reported for duty as a conscript when I was deployed

15     to the line.

16             From the beginning of my activities on the line, I was not a

17     member of any Crisis Staff or any other body until the Novo Sarajevo

18     municipality moved from Lukavica to Grbavica.

19        Q.   And when was that?  When did the Novo Sarajevo municipality move

20     from Lukavica to Grbavica?

21        A.   I noted down the exact date here in my statement.  If I could

22     just look at that, please.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we give the witness a hard

24     copy of his statement, please.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 31751

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 2        Q.   At paragraph 25 of your statement you talk about becoming the

 3     president of a staff for the movement of civilians and humanitarian aid

 4     in early 1994.  Is that what you're talking about?

 5        A.   No.  No.  I am thinking of December 1993.  From mid-June until

 6     December 1993, I was a member of the Army of Republika Srpska, in the

 7     3rd Company, the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.  Although in

 8     view of the specific features of Novo Sarajevo and Grbavica, even after I

 9     left for work duty, it was my job that during any armed attack by the

10     Muslim side I would be on the line of defence as a member of the VRS.

11     Living in Grbavica at the time did not mean that you were automatically a

12     member of the VRS or that you had to wage war.  If you were assigned to

13     work duty, then you were spared from the combat activities.

14        Q.   Okay.  So basically from April, when you were no longer able to

15     access the seat of the Crisis Staff, until mid-December 1993, you were

16     not personally involved in the Crisis Staff or any other municipal organ;

17     is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Okay.  And at paragraph 8 of your statement, you talk about the

20     Crisis Staff.  You say at paragraph 8:

21             "Crisis Staffs in Serbian municipalities were formed based on the

22     instructions of the government ... and the same was done in the Serbian

23     municipality of Novo Sarajevo."

24             Those instructions D407 are dated the 26th of April, 1992.

25             Now, today in your -- in answer to questions from Mr. Karadzic,

Page 31752

 1     you've referred to an earlier Crisis Staff established in Novo Sarajevo,

 2     a party Crisis Staff, and first I'd like to ask you whether you had any

 3     discussions with the Defence yesterday about this topic, about

 4     Crisis Staffs.

 5        A.   As far as I can recall, no.

 6        Q.   As far as you can recall?  It was yesterday.  Did you have any --

 7        A.   With the Defence?  No, we did not discuss the Crisis Staff at

 8     all.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And you said today that this party Crisis Staff that you

10     were asked about was established following the example of your

11     neighbours, the SDA and the HDZ, and you said following that example the

12     Municipal Board formed its own Crisis Staff, but in fact that party

13     Crisis Staff was established pursuant to instructions received from the

14     SDS Main Board, wasn't it?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   If we could have P2575.  You were a member of this party

17     Crisis Staff, right, Mr. Sojic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   On your screen you will see minutes of a Novo Sarajevo

20     Crisis Staff meeting held on the 23rd of December, 1991, and in the first

21     lines it says:

22             "The meeting held on the premises of the Novo Sarajevo SDS heard

23     and discussed the materials received from the SDS BH Main Board."

24             And then it refers to the "First Degree," and then there are a

25     number of items, and if you see item 3 it says:

Page 31753

 1             "Thirteen-member Crisis Staff established.  Commander and his

 2     deputy appointed.  And those instructions from the SDS Main Board which

 3     are in evidence as P5, say under item 3 of the "First degree," variant A:

 4             "SDS Municipal Boards shall establish immediately Crisis Staffs

 5     of the Serbian people in the municipality."

 6             And then it details the composition.  So this document reflects

 7     the creation of a Crisis Staff in Novo Sarajevo pursuant to

 8     SDS Main Board instructions; right?

 9        A.   No.  As I have said previously, I explained the situation which

10     resulted in the creation of the Crisis Staff in Novo Sarajevo

11     municipality.  If you look closely, just following item 3, it says that

12     Mirko Sarovic and Dragan Sojic are appointed as coordinators for

13     relations with the HDZ.  So we were in charge of coordinating with the

14     Crisis Staffs of the SDA and the HDZ.  Otherwise, at any meeting of the

15     Municipal Board, whoever was present during a Main Board meeting

16     addressed this or that problem that was discussed there.  What you can

17     find in the minutes, which is that some documents were considered which

18     originated from the Main Board.  It is not easy for me to make a link

19     between that and the initiative to set up the Crisis Staff.  The reasons

20     for creating the Crisis Staff were all around us in the field.  It was

21     the way we lived, the way things worked and this general danger that

22     loomed all over the whole of Sarajevo.  As members of the SDS, we deemed

23     it necessary to establish a Crisis Staff.  As I have explained already,

24     by that time the other two national parties had already set up their

25     Crisis Staffs and they were also taking part in sharing power with us.

Page 31754

 1        Q.   Well, whether or not the other parties had set up Crisis Staffs

 2     and whether or not the local SDS was motivated to set up a Crisis Staff,

 3     it's right here in black and white:  Thirteen-member Crisis Staff

 4     established pursuant to item 3 of the SDS Main Board instructions; isn't

 5     that right?

 6        A.   I don't see it on the monitor.  I only see the document

 7     pertaining to the Crisis Staff meeting.  You must be addressing an issue

 8     that can be seen in another document which I can't see.

 9        Q.   Well, let me ask you this:  Did you ever see the 1991

10     instructions, the variant A and B instructions that the Chamber has

11     received evidence and were being implemented in this document and in fact

12     matches item for item that document?  Did you ever see those

13     instructions?

14        A.   I responsibly claim that I have never seen the documents you

15     mentioned, neither document A nor document B as you called them.

16        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to go now to 65 ter 01481.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But did you hear of the document?  Mr. Sojic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

22        Q.   And just following up on that, did -- at this 23rd of December

23     meeting, you attended that meeting.  The one that we see -- the document

24     that was just previously on the screen; is that right?

25        A.   The document you showed me is the minutes of a meeting of the

Page 31755

 1     Grbavica SDS local board on the 27th of January, 1992.

 2        Q.   Sorry, I was talking about the previous document from the

 3     23rd of December, the Novo Sarajevo SDS meeting.  The one we looked at

 4     with the item establishing the Crisis Staff.

 5        A.   That document --

 6        Q.   Did you attend -- did you attend the meeting on the 23rd of

 7     December, the minutes of which we just looked at previously?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, as you correctly noted we have minutes from a

10     27 of January, 1992, meeting of the SDS local board from Grbavica.  And

11     you see a list of people present numbered 1 to 12 and after that it says

12     also present were Radomir Neskovic, Ranko Jugovic, Dragan Sojic and

13     Bozidar Komad [phoen].  Do you recall attending this Grbavica local board

14     meeting?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  And if we could look under item 1, which is further to the

17     bottom in the B/C/S and immediately under item 1 it says:

18             "President of the local board Deyan Gutalj explained work of the

19     Crisis Staff in the municipality."

20             Then Cedo Miletic says:

21             "I am interested in who has appointed members of the Crisis Staff

22     and how come all of them are from the municipality?"

23             And Deyan Gutalj says:

24             "The Crisis Staff is formed according to SDS Main Board

25     guidelines which precisely explain who is to be a member of the

Page 31756

 1     Crisis Staff."

 2             Now, this is another reflection of the fact that the

 3     Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff was formed pursuant to the SDS Main Board

 4     instructions, right?

 5        A.   I have explained what the motives were behind the setting up of

 6     the Crisis Staff in Novo Sarajevo municipality.  As about this, you can

 7     inquire with Mr. Deyan Gutelj about this topic because I have no such

 8     information.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this document.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Next exhibit, P exhibit.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 01481 becomes Exhibit P6066.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:

14        Q.   Okay.  At paragraph 7 of your statement, Mr. Sojic, you said that

15     when the war broke out the part of the municipality that was controlled

16     by the Serbs had to establish its government and so the Serbian

17     municipality of Novo Sarajevo was established on the 27th of March, 1992.

18     This was a time when your evidence is it was difficult, at the very

19     least, for you to access the seat of the Crisis Staff.  So I'd like to

20     ask you whether you had any personal involvement in the establishment of

21     the Novo Sarajevo Serbian Assembly or municipality.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And what was the extent of your involvement?

24        A.   At the first multi-party elections I was the first person to be

25     on the list of the SDS party for Novo Sarajevo municipality.  The SDS won

Page 31757

 1     the elections, and I received by far the most votes.  Not because I was

 2     someone who could mobilise 35.000 people, but simply because I was an SDS

 3     candidate.  President Karadzic in his expose stated that it was a sign of

 4     goodwill.  Irrespective of the fact that I was supposed to act as the

 5     municipal president, we handed over that position to the SDA and

 6     Mr. Kasim Demirovic became municipal press.  As a member of the local

 7     government in Novo Sarajevo municipality and the secretary of the

 8     secretariat of our special planning and housing affairs, I had an

 9     important role to play in the functioning of the local authorities.  That

10     is why I was present when the Serb municipality of Novo Sarajevo was

11     being set up.

12        Q.   And -- and when exactly was that?

13        A.   When what happened?  I'm not clear about the question.

14        Q.   Sorry, it wasn't a very clear-cut question.  The document

15     establishing the Serbian Municipal Assembly is dated the

16     26th of March, 1992, although it was passed on the 27th of March, 1992.

17     Were you actually present on the 27th of March -- 26th or the 27th of

18     March when this document was drafted or when it was passed?

19        A.   If you mean the Assembly session when the document was adopted,

20     then my answer is yes.  The founding Assembly meeting of Sarajevo --

21     Novo Sarajevo municipality and the making of the decision to establish an

22     Assembly, that is when I was present.

23        Q.   Okay.  And were you aware -- you explained that this was --

24     when -- you explained that this was done in response to the outbreak of

25     war.  The document, and this is D2675, the reference in your statement as

Page 31758

 1     I said is dated the 26th of March and was passed on the 27th of March,

 2     but war in Sarajevo broke out in early April, after this decision was

 3     passed; right?

 4        A.   If you happened to be in Sarajevo at the time, I don't think you

 5     would put the same question to me today.  I can use an example of mine,

 6     what it was like to go through an intersection next to the tobacco

 7     factory in Novo Sarajevo municipality.  It was very difficult even in the

 8     period leading up to the war before Novo Sarajevo municipality was

 9     founded.  As one went from the train -- tram stop to -- actually, as I

10     went from the tram stop to my house, I came across a check-point

11     controlled by the then official forces of the

12     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was very unusual.  They stopped

13     people and vehicles and asked for IDs.  Doing so, they had long-barrelled

14     weapons, which was not customary in terms of members of police who

15     engaged in such task.

16             When I was asked for my ID, I mildly protested because of the way

17     they were doing it.  One of the members of the police told me the

18     following:  If there wasn't anything that was clear to me he would take

19     me to the staff to have it explained.

20        Q.   Sorry to cut you off but your answers are very long and detailed

21     and not specifically focused on the question.  I understand from your

22     answer that there were unusual situations like check-points.  There may

23     have been some tension, but you don't dispute the fact, do you, that

24     fighting in Sarajevo actually broke out in early April?

25        A.   In Sarajevo, one could hear the firing of weapons even before the

Page 31759

 1     new year's, actually, quite before.  There wasn't a single night in

 2     Sarajevo after dusk that one couldn't hear bursts of fire.  When it

 3     dawned, everyone went to work tired because they didn't sleep, going and

 4     pretending that things went about as usual, avoiding to see or look at

 5     other people.  It was in that kind of tension that we all lived in.  As

 6     those in the party who were responsible --

 7        Q.   That's clear.  Thank you.  If I could ask you to focus your

 8     answers as much as possible.

 9             Okay.  Were you aware that three days before the decision

10     establishing the Novo Sarajevo Serbian Assembly was passed, the

11     Republika Srpska had actually imposed that very dead-line of the

12     27th of March for the creation of Serbian municipalities in those

13     municipalities which had not yet created them?  And that's P961, page 24.

14     Did you hear my question?

15        A.   I don't see the document.  I did hear the question.

16        Q.   I'm not showing you the document.  I'm just asking if you were

17     aware of the fact that the Republika Srpska Assembly had imposed a --

18     okay.  I see you're shaking your head.  You were not aware of that

19     dead-line.

20             And were you aware that at that same --

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Were you aware that at the same Assembly session on the

23     24th of March the Republika Srpska Assembly also verified the decisions

24     of a number of municipalities which had already established Serbian

25     municipalities, including the Sarajevo municipalities of Rajlovac and

Page 31760

 1     Vogosca?  Did you know about that?

 2        A.   We had so many problems of our own that as regards the adjacent

 3     municipalities, we weren't all too curious.  To tell you the truth, I

 4     didn't hear about that.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And you talked about the fact that you joined

 6     Slavko Aleksic's company at the Jewish Cemetery in late June of 1992, and

 7     you said that that unit wasn't special in any way.  The Chamber has

 8     received evidence that at the beginning of the war Mr. Aleksic led a

 9     group of volunteers referred to as the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik Detachment,

10     and that's in P5035.  Did you know about that?

11        A.   I was not in Slavko Aleksic's company, as you put it.  I was a

12     member of the VRS, of the 3rd Company of the 3rd Battalion of the

13     1st Sarajevo Brigade.  The commander of the company happened to be

14     Slavko Aleksic.  When I came to the line at the Jewish Cemetery the area

15     of responsibility was just before us, and I fully -- and I will

16     responsibly claim in that unit there wasn't a single volunteer.

17        Q.   That wasn't my question.  My question was whether you were aware

18     of the -- of the fact that at the beginning of the war, Aleksic led a

19     group of volunteers known as the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik Detachment.  Did

20     you know about that?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Okay.  You referred to Aleksic's appearance, his -- the fact that

23     he had a beard and long hair.  That is typically associated with Chetnik

24     appearance, isn't it?

25        A.   No, I wouldn't agree.  Quite the other way.  His face looked

Page 31761

 1     enlightened.  He was the kind of person that you would never detect

 2     anything evil or mean inside him, let alone him being a criminal.

 3        Q.   I was talking about the hairstyle, Mr. Sojic.  The beard and long

 4     hair, that's typical Chetnik appearance, isn't it?

 5        A.   Quite the contrary.  At certain points in time he resembled

 6     Moses.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And you said that the unit you belonged to wasn't special

 8     in any way.  I think those were your words.  But it is true that Aleksic

 9     didn't have a regular VRS title or rank but referred to himself as a

10     Vojvoda in military documents, a rank -- a title that was conferred on

11     him by Mr. Seselj; right?

12        A.   It wasn't only Slavko Aleksic who came from the ranks of inactive

13     officers of the VRS who commanded without having received any rank up to

14     the level of battalion.

15        Q.   But he -- he referred to himself as a Vojvoda rather than using

16     any kind of military rank; right?

17        A.   I never heard him say that.  He wasn't a person of authority in

18     the first place.

19        Q.   He was your company commander, wasn't he?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P5931, please.  This is a

23     16 December 1993 request from Mr. Aleksic's company to the command of the

24     3rd Battalion requesting weapons and ammunition.  And if we could go to

25     the -- if we could zoom in on the signature and stamp at the bottom of

Page 31762

 1     the page.  Now, that is a -- type-signed

 2     Commander Vojvoda Slavko Aleksic, and if we could zoom in on the stamp a

 3     little bit more.

 4             Now, that stamp, Mr. Sojic, reads "Sarajevo local commune board

 5     of the Serbian Radical Party," doesn't it?

 6        A.   If you're asking me what I can read on the monitor, then I say

 7     yes, that's what it says.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, you said that Aleksic's -- that your unit was not

 9     special in any way, but would you agree that it would not be typical of

10     the VRS -- of a VRS commander to sign a document with the title Vojvoda

11     and stamp it with a Serbian Radical Party stamp?  Do you agree with that?

12        A.   I have no comment.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Do you have any re-examination?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, several

16     questions.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Since this document is already on the screen,

19     could we -- well, actually, could we have 65 ter 23872.

20             While we are waiting for the document, Mr. Sojic, do you remember

21     whether there was the rank of Vojvoda or duke as a rank of the VRS?

22        A.   That rank did not exist, as far as I know.  Well, to tell you the

23     truth, I'm an architect, not an officer, but I've never heard of that

24     kind of rank in the VRS.

25        Q.   Thank you.  What about any previous armed forces?  Was it more of

Page 31763

 1     a honourary rank or title?

 2        A.   Due to the great successes of the Serb army in World War I, it

 3     adopted a number of ranks and titles.  That is where the title of duke

 4     was assigned to brave men.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Are you familiar with the fact that some units

 6     followed in the tradition of long ago units carrying the name such as,

 7     for example, the 32nd Partisan Division and so on and so forth?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you look at the document before you and tell us

10     what it's about.  Who are these assets being given to?

11        A.   The document is dated the 19th of August, 1992, when the command

12     of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps sent certain assets to the Koran command

13     and authorised Dragan Vucetic and Slavko Aleksic as the persons who were

14     supposed to take those assets over.

15        Q.   What kind of formation were these authorised representatives

16     members of?

17        A.   They were members of the 3rd Company of the 3rd Battalion of the

18     1st Sarajevo Brigade.  Dragan Vucetic acted as commander of the

19     3rd Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade for a while.

20        Q.   So when you joined them, it went under that name?

21        A.   Yes, and not only then, but all the way until the end of the war.

22     That unit actually was never disbanded.  We remained at the location of

23     the cemetery in Novo Sarajevo.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

Page 31764

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Defence exhibit.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 23872 shall be assigned

 3     Exhibit D2685.  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have P6066 next.

 5     It was admitted today.  Page 4, please.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Sojic, please have a look at the conclusions.  For example,

 8     conclusion number 1, as well as number 5 and 14.  Did the Crisis Staff

 9     and the local board act autonomously, and did they receive any

10     instructions?  In other words, what is it that they are asking for in

11     this document?

12        A.   As for this document --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before -- before you answer, Mr. Sojic.

14             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's a leading question.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I was wondering how it arose from the

17     cross-examination, but -- could you reformulate your question,

18     Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will.  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Sojic, this document -- on the first page of the document, it

22     was suggested to you that the Crisis Staff of the local commune was

23     working in accordance with instructions received from the party.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That wasn't -- that wasn't the proposition that

25     was put to the witness.

Page 31765

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I think -- the question was whether the

 2     Crisis Staff, local Crisis Staff was established pursuant to the

 3     instruction from the Main Board.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, the municipal Crisis Staff.  Now, there's

 5     some confusion that there's a Crisis Staff of the local commune.  I never

 6     made any such suggestion to the witness.  So this is confusing.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at conclusion

 8     number 5.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you tell us what conclusion number 5 relates to?

11        A.   This document concerns two issues, Mr. President.  First of all,

12     it is about the autonomy of the local commune when it comes to its work

13     because you can see from the discussions of all those who were present

14     that they were fully informed of what took place at the Municipal Board.

15     There are various conclusions, that there's a link with the Main Board,

16     and so on and so forth, that they heard this and that.  As a result these

17     conclusions were drawn, and at the same time all of this is the result of

18     the situation in Novo Sarajevo municipality, in the local commune of

19     Grbavica, as a result of the situation in Grbavica.  Under 5 it says

20     convene a session of the SDS Novo Sarajevo and they are supposed to

21     discuss the work of the Municipal Board there, the autonomy of the

22     Municipal Board of SDS is present in relation to the local board.  It's a

23     revolt of the local commune of Grbavica, the local board of Grbavica, and

24     as a result of this these conclusions were drawn.

25             Under 14 it says specify activities of the Crisis Staff and the

Page 31766

 1     SDS Municipal Board.  If there were any instructions here, if they had

 2     been applied, then they wouldn't have been afraid.  They wouldn't have

 3     been concerned about what the work of the Crisis Staff was and about what

 4     the work of the Municipal Board was.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now see P -- P2575.  P275.  P2575.  When

 6     you're answering questions today put to you by the Prosecution, you said

 7     that the Crisis Staff wasn't established in accordance with these

 8     instructions that were issued on the 19th of December.  Could we have a

 9     look at the date when this meeting of the Crisis Staff was held.

10        A.   The 23rd of December, 1991.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Could we have a look at the top.  Was this the

12     founding meeting of the Crisis Staff, or was this one of the meetings in

13     a series?

14        A.   This was just one of the meetings.  The Crisis Staff was formed a

15     lot earlier on, because this is in the month of December.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It won't take long, your

18     Excellencies.  [In English] If you're wondering how long, no, no it's not

19     going to be long.

20             JUDGE BAIRD:  Quite extraordinary, Mr. Karadzic, but do carry on.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You were asked -- or, rather, where were the headquarters of the

23     SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ?

24        A.   The headquarters of all three political parties that participated

25     in the establishment of the authorities in Novo Sarajevo was in the

Page 31767

 1     building of Novo Sarajevo.  As parliamentary parties we had our own

 2     premises.  For the purpose of good neighbourly relationships, at the

 3     beginning, these offices were next to each other initially.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In March did you go to the Novo Sarajevo municipal

 5     building in March to work there?

 6        A.   Very rarely.

 7        Q.   Where was the Crisis Staff of the SDS, the

 8     Serbian Democratic Party?

 9        A.   The Crisis Staff of the SDS was established in the Novo Sarajevo

10     municipality and our premises but it wasn't possible to continue

11     functioning because one couldn't gain access to the municipal building in

12     Novo Sarajevo.  So it started working in premises elsewhere, not in the

13     municipal building.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know when the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina was established?  When was its existence declared?

16        A.   I think it was in October.

17        Q.   Not the Assembly, the republic.

18        A.   I can't remember the exact date.

19        Q.   If I remind you, would it be on the 9th of January?

20        A.   Shame on me.  It's a bad day.  Or, rather, St. Stephen's Day.

21        Q.   When did Republika Srpska start functioning?

22        A.   It was only after the war had broken out that it started

23     functioning, after the beginning of the war, because in the founding

24     decision, the decision to found the Serbian municipality of

25     Novo Sarajevo, in one part of that decision we took account of the fact

Page 31768

 1     that war shouldn't break out, and therefore the officials from the SDS

 2     were responsible to perform their duties conscientiously and in

 3     accordance with the law.  Only if the situation, the political and

 4     security situation, deteriorated, only if work broke out, was it going to

 5     be necessary to work in accordance with the decision on the establishment

 6     of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I just didn't see how these last two questions

 9     arose from the cross-examination.

10             JUDGE KWON:  True, but I thought you were coming to an end.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I am.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I wanted to ask Mr. Sojic whether the date on which the

14     municipality or the republic was declared was also the date which they

15     were founded or started functioning.

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   And my last question:  You were asked about when the war broke

18     out.  Do you know what took place on the 1st of March in Sarajevo?

19        A.   On the 1st of March in Bascarsija in Sarajevo, a Serbian best man

20     was killed, Mr. Gardovic.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what happened on the 3rd of March in

22     Bosanski Brod?

23        A.   The legal armies, Croatian armies, moved over into the territory

24     of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 31769

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber needs to rise very soon.

 2     If you need to continue, we will have a break now.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, your Excellency.  That's fine.

 4     I just wanted to ask the witness about the agreement, but everything is

 5     fine.

 6             Thank you, Mr. Sojic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             Thank you, Mr. Sojic.  That concludes your evidence.  I thank you

10     for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go, but

11     unless there is anything to be raised.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have the next witness

13     ready for direct examination, so we would like to proceed with his direct

14     examination and he can have the cross-examination tomorrow.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger?

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, we can accommodate that, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll have a break for half an hour and resume

18     at 10 past 11.00.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  For this session and tomorrow, we'll be sitting

23     pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison being away.

24             Yes.  Good morning, Ms. West.

25             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

Page 31770

 1     Your Honours.  Your Honours, I just wanted to address a couple of the

 2     exhibits before the witness came in.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MS. WEST:  Perhaps if I go to the paragraph numbers.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  If it doesn't cause much problem,

 6     could we rise for five minutes.

 7                           --- Break taken at 11.14 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

10             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we can focus on

11     paragraphs 65 through 73, please.  This is -- this lists a number of

12     associated exhibits.  And in going through these, it appears that they

13     are exhibits that -- that describe Muslim offences, so in the first

14     instance, my -- I would object to these as being irrelevant, as being

15     tu quoque, but my second submission in regard to paragraph 65 through 73

16     regards whether these exhibits have shown to be inseparable and

17     indispensable to the statement itself.  And as an example of that, if you

18     look at 68, the only comment in the statement is this document with my

19     name on it says that the 1st BH Army corps had some successes in the June

20     offensive; 70, this document is about the offensive operations in the

21     BH Army corps; 71, my comment is the same as the preceding comment.  So I

22     think there are two separate objections, relevance and none of these

23     documents are inseparable or indispensable.

24             If you turn to paragraphs 80 and 81, here we have two documents

25     that were shown to the witness.  They are -- neither document contains a

Page 31771

 1     date, and what I would suggest is that lack of date makes it difficult to

 2     see the relevance, but also if you look at the language in 80 and 81, all

 3     it says is the information contained in this document is consistent with

 4     the information I had at the time about the command's attitudes towards

 5     crime.  And the second one is just that the information is consistent

 6     with the information I had at the time.

 7             Mr. President, I would suggest that this is somewhat reminiscent

 8     of a number of the redirects that we've heard in this courtroom where

 9     Mr. Karadzic has shown a witness a document and just asked if that

10     document had information that was consistent with what the witness

11     understood.

12             I would -- I would submit that with these two documents, it's

13     hard to determine whether there's any relevance or even contextualisation

14     of the events without more information, so I would object to those as

15     well.

16             And there's only one other paragraph, Mr. President, and for that

17     if we can look at paragraph 86.  That is a document that I understand is

18     a newspaper report.  I could not find an English translation.  I may be

19     wrong about that.  But from just reading the description here, it says

20     the witness says I confirm the allegations in this document that Muslims

21     attacked the company Zrak.  First and foremost, I would say that that is

22     irrelevant, and secondly, without more it's very difficult to determine

23     whether it's indispensable or inseparable.

24             Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Who will respond to Ms. West's submission?  Yes,

Page 31772

 1     Mr. Robinson.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  With respect to the last

 3     paragraph, 86, also I don't see that English translation in e-court, so

 4     we'll have to lead that live if it's important to Dr. Karadzic.

 5             With respect to the other paragraphs with anything that the

 6     Chamber feels needs more explanation, of course we will lead that live

 7     and if you feel that paragraphs 80 and 81, those documents do not give

 8     you enough information, then they'll have to be led live or dropped.

 9             With respect to the relevance, the June 1995 offensive by the

10     Muslims is extremely relevant.  It has nothing to do with tu quoque

11     evidence.  Many of the shellings incidents including those of the

12     modified air-bombs happened during June of 1995.  Even the June of 1995

13     events in Sarajevo are relevant to the Srebrenica portion of the case

14     because the offensive in June of 1995 in Sarajevo was part of the reason

15     that the Muslims in Srebrenica began to attack villages in which -- so

16     that they would tie down the VRS and keep them away from Sarajevo

17     battle-field.  So the fact that the Muslims were engaged in offensive

18     activities in June 1995 is very relevant to the indictment and none of

19     the documents should be rejected on that basis.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Since we have some time today -- before that, do you

21     like to reply, Ms. West?  If not, we'll carry on.

22             Shall we go one by one in the order of the filing.  First item I

23     note is 65 ter 7129 referred to in para 84.  I'm not sure that correct

24     English translation has been uploaded.  Can we see it?

25             While the B/C/S is four pages, there is only two pages in English

Page 31773

 1     or three, but the last page being the just signature.  And what he says,

 2     this document was shown to me, this document testifies about the

 3     hand-over of the Rajlovac.  I'm not sure whether these parts -- this

 4     forms indispensable and inseparable part, so if necessary, I would advise

 5     Mr. Karadzic to lead live on this -- about this document.

 6             And shall we move to 17258, referred to in paragraph 61.  Shall

 7     we upload that document.

 8             I think we dealt with this -- this statement a while ago.  This

 9     is a statement of certain Bozic, Jovo Bozic, in a military court.  So

10     whether this is a third-party statement made for the purpose of criminal

11     investigation or not, I would like Mr. Karadzic to lead live about this

12     part as well if he so wishes.

13             We dealt with similar issues.  It's paragraph 22, two maps.  I'm

14     minded to admit only the zoomed map instead of admitting two, the other

15     one being of a very small scale, difficult to recognise.  So we'll not

16     admit 1D8445 but admit only one, 8445A.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, perhaps it could

18     be placed under one number.  Both of them could be placed under one

19     number, and then you might know where the entire map is.  So it could be

20     one exhibit.  We could have both of these documents as one exhibit.  It

21     hasn't been correctly interpreted.  My suggestion is that the Chamber is

22     able -- so that the Chamber can see where the location is in the wide

23     area, that we could have two exhibits attached and just one number

24     assigned to those two exhibits.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Let's take a look.  Shall we upload 8445A first.

Page 31774

 1             Okay.  And then this is with A.  Can we see the map without A?

 2     We know where it is.  It's part of -- let's take a look --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's sufficient,

 4     your Excellencies.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  -- at the larger map.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  It's

 6     sufficient to admit only 455 -- 8445A.

 7             And then I'll consult with my colleagues as to the exhibit raised

 8     by Ms. West.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  As regards the -- the exhibit referred to in

11     paragraphs 65 to 73 will be received by the Chamber.  We agree it's

12     relevant to his case and forms part of the indispensable and inseparable

13     part of the statement.  However, with respect to the last document,

14     1D8406 referred to in para 73, the content seems to be a bit different as

15     indicated in his statement.  Therefore, I would like the accused to lead

16     live about this document as well if he wishes to tender it.  But that all

17     subject to the attestation of the witness about the veracity of his

18     statement.

19             That being said, we'll bring in the witness.

20             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I'm sure the Chamber knows, but this

21     witness will require an advisement.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let the witness make the solemn declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 31775

 1                           WITNESS:  MIHAJLO VUJASIN

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Vujasin.  Please be seated and make

 4     yourself comfortable.

 5             Good morning, sir.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Before you start giving evidence, I would like to

 8     draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal.  Under

 9     this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the

10     accused, the Prosecution, or from the Judges if you believe that your

11     answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate," I mean that

12     something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal

13     offence or could provide evidence that you have committed an offence.

14     However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you and you do

15     not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal still then may compel you

16     to answer the question, but in such a case the Tribunal will make sure

17     that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence

18     in other case against you for any offence other than false testimony.

19             Do you understand what I have just told you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Karadzic.

23                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Vujasin.

25        A.   Good day, Mr. President.

Page 31776

 1        Q.   Can we please wait, both of us, between the question and answer

 2     so that the interpreters could have enough time to interpret everything

 3     and for everything to be recorded in the transcript.

 4             Sir, Colonel, did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D6723 in e-court,

 8     please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Is this the statement that you see in front of you on the screen?

11        A.   Up until four, yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you need to see the whole document, and do you

13     need to have a hard copy for you to use?  Do you have a hard copy in

14     front of you, sir?

15        A.   No, I don't have a hard copy, but I do have paragraphs 1 to 4

16     here on the monitor.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please provide a hard copy

18     for the witness.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, we can print out and provide to the witness.  In

20     the meantime, shall we proceed?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I marked my own hard

23     copy of the witness's statement, so that's why I cannot give that to the

24     witness.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 31777

 1        Q.   Sir, did you read and sign your statement?

 2        A.   Yes.  The statement that I gave, I read it back and I signed it.

 3        Q.   And in the statement does it reflect accurately everything that

 4     you said?

 5        A.   Yes, it does.

 6        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, Colonel, would

 7     your answers in essence be the same?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

11     tender this statement and the documents that can just go in without live

12     testimony.  After reading the summary, I would like to deal with some

13     documents with this witness.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit the 92 ter statement first.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 1D6723 shall be

16     assigned Exhibit D2686.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll deal with the associated exhibits after

18     his testimony is concluded.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I would like to

20     read the summary of Colonel Vujasin's statement in English.

21             [In English] Colonel Mihajlo Vujasin was born in Sokoliste,

22     Bosanski Novi municipality, on 1st of March, 1955.  He completed the

23     military academy in Belgrade and was discharging the duty of company

24     commander and chief of engineers at the Rajlovac airforce base.

25             Mihajlo Vujasin was commander of the 1st Battalion at Rajlovac

Page 31778

 1     airforce base.  After the war broke out, he became deputy commander of

 2     the Rajlovac brigade.  On 16th of September, 1992, he was appointed chief

 3     of engineers of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 4             Before the beginning of the shelling, the recruitment of

 5     personnel for the airforce base war units had been carried out on a

 6     voluntary basis and two units had been formed by Serbian volunteers and

 7     one by Muslims.

 8             The first shell hit Rajlovac in the evening on

 9     4th of April, 1992, injuring about a dozen of cadets who attended

10     training at the Rajlovac airfield perimeter.  The shelling continued for

11     about half an hour, targeting housing facilities and the command, among

12     other.  The position from which the shells were launched was inhabited

13     strictly by the Muslim population.  From that moment, non-Serbian JNA

14     officers began to leave.  Following the attack, the Butmir airfield was

15     occupied by JNA units from the Rajlovac airfield.  The JNA was

16     responsible for securing the Butmir airfield in the event of emergency

17     situations.

18             The ethnic majority in Rajlovac was Serbian.  The

19     Territorial Defence at the time was majority Serbian since the Muslims

20     did not respond to mobilisation calls.  On 13th of May, 1992, the base

21     was moved to Belgrade and the Territorial Defence took over the barracks

22     in Rajlovac on 10th and 12th of May, 1992.  The Territorial Defence

23     consisted of locals from Rajlovac, Reljevo, Recica, and Zabrde

24     settlements who had responded to mobilisation calls and refugees from

25     Central Bosnia.  The Territorial Defence members formed the

Page 31779

 1     Rajlovac Brigade at their own initiative without orders of the superior

 2     command, with the main aim to protect the population and property in

 3     Rajlovac.

 4             The task assigned by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps concerning

 5     Sarajevo was to retain the positions, not to enter the town, and to

 6     prevent the Muslim forces from breaking out of the town and linking with

 7     the Muslim forces on the outer ring.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps mostly

 8     defended itself.  There were operations involving the improvement of

 9     tactical positions and those involving prevention by which the

10     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps force, the Muslim forces to regroup and to use

11     their resources.  While carrying out combat operations firing or

12     responding to firing from the town, neither he nor his brigade considered

13     those operations as part of a systematic or widespread attack against

14     civilians.  The Rajlovac Brigade took precautionary measures to avoid

15     firing on civilian facilities in the zone of responsibility of his -- of

16     the opposing units.  Also, when carrying out combat operations and firing

17     on military targets in civilian zones, they took measures to reduce

18     collateral civilian casualties and always warned the enemy through the

19     corps command.

20             The training level of the members of his brigade was initially

21     poor but improved with time.  The sabotage -- the shortage of

22     professional staff influenced the quality of management, command and

23     control.  There were problems with ammunition, and they were always short

24     of it, particularly of artillery ammunition.  They had no knowledge that

25     the task of snipers was to shoot civilians in the town controlled by the

Page 31780

 1     Muslim authorities, but he did know that there were snipers in the

 2     1st Corps of BH Army targeting their own positions and civilians.

 3             His brigade was never ordered by superior command or civilian

 4     authorities, orally or in writing, to carry out attacks against civilians

 5     or means of public transport.  Likewise, he never issued such orders.

 6     Neither he nor subordinates or superior commands had any intention of

 7     causing civilian casualties or terrorising or exerting psychological

 8     pressure on civilians under Muslim control.  Conversely, Rajlovac was

 9     shelled in the depth of its territory, and Muslims -- Muslim shelling and

10     sniper fire were frequent and civilian casualties in the zone of

11     responsibility of his brigade were high.  Muslim forces also forced

12     civilians to dig trenches and fortifications towards unit of

13     Colonel Vujasin's positions.  There were various paramilitary groups

14     raiding through Rajlovac with mercenary aims attacking victims

15     indiscriminately and causing problems for both Serbs and Muslims.

16     Superior command endeavoured to resolve this problem by disarming and

17     expelling them or placing them under a unified command individually, not

18     as units, and only those individuals who had not committed a crime.

19             Orders stated that the attitude towards the UN members and

20     civilians must entail full respect of the Geneva Conventions and abiding

21     by the norms of the law of war.  General orders and instructions received

22     from superior command were that fire was to be opened against standard

23     and established firing and combat positions and only when their own Serb

24     positions were to be defended.

25             From April 1992 to December 1995, the 1st Corps of BH Army was

Page 31781

 1     stationed in the town of Sarajevo controlled by Muslim forces.  They had

 2     positions in dominant elevations -- elevated points in the -- in and

 3     around the town controlled by Muslim authorities as well as in civilian

 4     zones and buildings and in the depth of their territory.  The unit of

 5     Colonel Vujasin had information about the existence of criminal groups in

 6     the 1st Corps of BH Army.

 7             Humanitarian aid went through Rajlovac unstopped.  They had

 8     knowledge, however, about the misuse of humanitarian convoys for military

 9     purposes of the -- by the -- of the Sarajevo -- of the 1st Corps of

10     BH Army.  Most of humanitarian aid ended up with the units of these --

11     with the units of -- with soldiers of these units rather than the

12     civilians.  The Serbian side enabled the civilians to leave the town with

13     the assistance of UNPROFOR, while the -- there were Serbian civilians in

14     the town under the control of Muslim authorities who were not allowed to

15     leave the town.  They were informed, Mr. Vujasin and his own colleagues

16     were informed, that Radovan Karadzic's stance was to enable full and

17     unobstructed supply of humanitarian aid, water, electricity, and gas to

18     civilians in the Muslim part of Sarajevo.

19             Mr. Vujasin learned about the existence and production of

20     modified air-bombs for ground targets during the testing of one such

21     aerial bomb in Nisici.  He has no knowledge of the existence of fuel

22     air-bombs in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps arsenal.

23             In the initial period of the war, they had poor relations with

24     the local civilian authorities due to the latter's unrealistic

25     expectations from the brigade and they demanded more that what the

Page 31782

 1     brigade was able to do -- than what the brigade was able to do.  He did

 2     not have information of a Serbian municipal policy of persecution,

 3     killing or discrimination based on religious or ethnic ground in his

 4     brigade's zone of responsibility.

 5             [Interpretation] That would be the resume -- summary, and would I

 6     like to look at a few documents now and some paragraphs that need to be

 7     covered live.

 8             MS. WEST:  [Overlapping speakers] Mr. President, if I can just

 9     make one comment [overlapping speakers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Before doing so -- yes, Ms. West.

11             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  I apologise for interrupting.  I just -- a

12     clarification and Mr. Karadzic will tell me if I'm wrong, looking at

13     paragraph -- excuse me, page 49, and it's the last few lines, this is

14     when Mr. Karadzic was summarising the information on snipers.  And he

15     said, summary, that he had no knowledge of the task of snipers was to

16     shoot civilians in the town controlled by the Muslim authorities, but he,

17     the witness, did know that there were snipers in the 1st Corps of the

18     BH Army targeting their own positions and civilians.  I just want to be

19     clear this is from paragraph 43.  When it says targeting their own

20     positions and civilians, that appears to be the Bosnian Serb positions,

21     not their own, meaning the Bosnian Muslims.

22             THE ACCUSED:  That's completely right but just a mistake in the

23     summary which is not, as I understood, which is not in evidence.  But

24     it's right.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. West.

Page 31783

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can we look at paragraph 61 of Colonel Vujasin's statement.  We

 3     will not be using the interview of Mr. Bozic that we referred to before.

 4     The information in paragraph 61, is that something that you're aware of

 5     even without the interview?

 6        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We would like to keep paragraph 61.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But you are not tendering that 17258.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, your Excellency.  We showed it

10     once and it was not admitted even though that's the interview of the late

11     Mr. Bozic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I would just like to draw your attention to paragraph 86.  We are

14     not going to be using this document either, but I would like to ask you

15     whether you know of this information even without the document and

16     whether the information is correct.  You were thinking of paragraph 86;

17     is that right?

18        A.   Yes, I am aware of this.

19        Q.   When you mentioned that two brigades of volunteers were formed,

20     two Serbian ones and one Muslim brigade, are you able to explain to us

21     when this happened?

22        A.   I am talking about two units, not two brigades.  Excuse me,

23     Mr. President.  Based on the task of the JNA at the time, the response to

24     the call-up was not very good as far as both Serbs and Muslims were

25     concerned, so there was a law adopted so that war units could be formed

Page 31784

 1     on a voluntary basis for the needs of the JNA, and then the Serb side

 2     formed two units, and the Muslims formed one unit.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And the JNA armed all of them; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.  It armed all of them, but later this had negative

 5     consequences in terms of the policy and the civilian structures of the

 6     municipality of Rajlovac.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. WEST:  Before we get into a role, I would just ask

 9     Mr. Karadzic to think about the questions he's asking and have them not

10     be so leading.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.  This is

12     in the statement, so all I wanted to do was to check something about

13     these attacks.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So the question could be:  Did you arm those three units without

16     any difference, without differentiating among them?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.  And this was done before the 4th of April,

18     before the attack on the barracks.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MS. WEST:  I'm sorry, but he's just done it again.

21             JUDGE KWON:  It's particularly difficult when we already admitted

22     the statement and then -- but even if that is the case, please refrain

23     from making a leading question, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I completely accept any objection,

25     and I will do my best to learn to abandon the habit that I have formed

Page 31785

 1     over the past two and a half years when I did have the right to put

 2     leading questions.

 3             Excellencies, we would like to keep paragraph 86 but leave out

 4     the document.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I just note that without this document, I -- the

 6     last sentence in that paragraph has no probative value at all.  Let's

 7     proceed.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Colonel, the Muslim forces of the 1st Corps, did they carry out

11     any offensives against the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and were they

12     successful in this regard?

13        A.   Yes, they did carry out offensives, and they were successful.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D8406, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   And the document refers to paragraph 73 of your statement.  Can

18     you please tell us what this document is about?  When was it drafted and

19     what does it talk about?

20        A.   Can you please zoom in?  It's difficult for me to read.  Yes.  I

21     was duty operations officer in the command of the RSK and there was a lot

22     of combat at the time and only some skeleton staff were left at the corps

23     command.  Everyone else was in the field including General Milosevic and

24     his assistants.

25        Q.   Can you tell us what the result was of those attacks and why this

Page 31786

 1     order?  Why was it submitted through you to Milosevic?

 2        A.   That was the system of command.  He had to go in the field so

 3     that he would personally be present in order to assist in keeping those

 4     positions.  We tried to keep those positions because we were in a worse

 5     position than the enemy, and we tried to stabilise the front line.

 6        Q.   What kind of successes did the Army of BiH achieve?  What was

 7     lost?  Line three.

 8        A.   It is a village called Mosici which was trig point 929.  By that

 9     time it had probably fallen, and this is what was reported.  That was the

10     situation in the field.

11        Q.   Can you tell something about the date for the sake of the

12     Chamber?  What was this part of?

13        A.   This was in June 1995, on the 21st of June.  That's when there

14     was an offensive on the Serb positions, I think in the entire Sarajevo

15     theatre, but in this area they were the most successful, the

16     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I mean.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, your

18     Excellency.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will admit it as next Defence exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 1D8406 shall be

21     assigned Exhibit D2687.  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellency.  At

23     this point I have no further questions of Colonel Vujasin.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Then I take it you are not tendering document

25     65 ter 7129, referred to in para 84, and 1D3259, the English translation

Page 31787

 1     of which is missing?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it has to do with

 3     the hand-over of the airport by the JNA to the civilian authorities, and

 4     then the civilian authorities handed it over to the VRS, but it's not

 5     that important.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Eighty-six.  It is -- so we will

 8     not tender documents 84 and 86.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then the remainder of the associated

10     exhibits will be admitted and be given numbers in due course by the

11     Registrar.

12             As notified, we will have the cross-examination tomorrow morning.

13             Mr. Vujasin, we will adjourn for today and continue tomorrow

14     morning at 9.00.  In the meantime, I would advise you not to discuss with

15     anybody else about your testimony.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is fine.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  The hearing is adjourned.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.06 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day

21                           of December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.