130117IT

Page 32053

1 Thursday, 17 January 2013

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.

6 Good morning, Mr. Vujicic. Do you hear me well in your language?

7 I repeat. Good morning, Mr. Vujicic. Do you hear me well in your

8 language.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I'm not Vujicic. I'm

10 Ivanovic.

11 JUDGE KWON: I was mistaken in the order of witnesses. Then

12 would you kindly take the solemn declaration, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: JANKO IVANOVIC

16 [Witness answered through interpretation]

17 [Witness testified via videolink]

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic. Please make yourself

19 comfortable.

20 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, your Excellencies.

22 Good morning to everyone.

23 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 32054

1 Q. Did you, Mr. Ivanovic, give a statement to my Defence team?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Thank you. Could we call up 1D5591. And I hope you have a copy

4 of your statement in Serbian.

5 A. I do.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the fifth page.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Do you see on the screen if this is your signature?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we also show page 1 in

12 Serbian.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Not the first page of the document but the one before this.

16 A. All right.

17 Q. Is this the page before, the first page of your statement?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Thank you. I have to make a pause between my questions and your

20 answers, and I should like you to do the same to enable interpretation.

21 Have you read this statement?

22 A. I have.

23 Q. Thank you. Does it accurately reflect what you've stated?

24 A. It does.

25 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

Page 32055

1 answers be essentially the same?

2 A. One hundred per cent.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to tender this

5 package under 92 ter.

6 JUDGE KWON: Any objection?

7 MR. ZEC: Good morning, Your Honours. Provided that the

8 statement is redacted in accordance to your order of 21st November, 2012,

9 there will be no objection.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I understood that the Chamber ordered

11 paragraphs 4 and 5 to be redacted, but I note that that hasn't been done

12 yet.

13 MR. ROBINSON: We'll do that, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE KWON: And you're tendering one associated exhibit.

15 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.

16 JUDGE KWON: You have no objection to the admission of that map?

17 MR. ZEC: No.

18 JUDGE KWON: With the understanding that para-4 and 5 will be

19 redacted, we'll admit them both. Shall we give the number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D2763 for the statement and the

21 associated exhibit shall be D2764. Thank you.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I shall now read the

24 summary of Mr. Ivanovic's statement in English.

25 [In English] Janko Ivanovic spent the war in Hrasnica, Sarajevo

Page 32056

1 suburb, on territory controlled by the Muslim forces. He worked as a

2 railway employee but during the war he was forced to report to the labour

3 detail command.

4 He had knowledge -- I see other side.

5 MR. ZEC: Your Honour, only this last bit that Mr. Karadzic read

6 is redacted, as well as paragraph 4 and 5 of this anticipated summary.

7 JUDGE KWON: Correct.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say for the record that I

9 really do not see any reason why we should be so strict as to redact

10 information that affected people's lives and behaviour. What these

11 people has suffered has affected them and their behaviour. This is not

12 to justify anyone --

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, this is not a time for your

14 submission.

15 THE ACCUSED: Okay.

16 He had knowledge that Muslim forces were using the bank in

17 Hrasnica as their military department. He would see Muslim soldiers

18 moving every day in the direction of Igman and military equipment

19 frequently passed through the tunnel that connected them to the town.

20 In April 1992, the Muslim forces attacked Krtelj Special Police

21 forces seat and seized two armoured personnel carriers which were brought

22 to Hrasnica and positioned near civilian building and houses.

23 Practically every day the Muslim forces fired -- would fire cannon shells

24 at Serbian positions and areas. And if there was return fire, it would

25 fall near the two skyscrapers and the post office where the 4th Motorised

Page 32057

1 Brigade command was located.

2 In 1993, Janko Ivanovic had to report to labour detail command.

3 The military police took his car in his garage. He -- they placed --

4 I see the Prosecutor, but I would like to -- to stress that this

5 is the basis how this witness could have seen many things.

6 JUDGE KWON: This is not a time for your question. Please be

7 careful about what has been redacted, and then if -- in order to

8 supplement what's -- what's in the statement, you may ask some

9 supplementary questions to the witness.

10 THE ACCUSED: Okay.

11 JUDGE KWON: To the extent necessary and relevant.

12 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

13 THE ACCUSED: They placed grenades in both the glove compartment

14 and the trunk of the car. It was returned 20 days later completely

15 destroyed and so on --

16 MR. ZEC: Mr. Karadzic just continues the same thing.

17 THE ACCUSED: Janko Ivanovic --

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, in the future, please bear in mind and

19 pay attention to what has been ruled in the Chamber's ruling, and please

20 try to reflect in the summary that is to be read out by Mr. Karadzic.

21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think that's the problem is

22 that the team didn't pick up that order and has -- have drafted a summary

23 that didn't include the redacted portion. So Dr. Karadzic doesn't have

24 in front of him the statement and the order such that he's able to change

25 the summary spontaneously. So if you prefer, we could take a five-minute

Page 32058

1 recess and we could sort that out and inform him of what's been redacted

2 from the statement so that he could adjust the summary.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec. I remember you rose at the moment.

4 MR. ZEC: Yes, yes. In accordance -- when I'm looking at this,

5 and this be the summary, this paragraph and the next paragraph are

6 redacted.

7 JUDGE KWON: I'm a bit at a loss. Let's move on. I think we can

8 move on.

9 THE ACCUSED: Janko Ivanovic could not leave Hrasnica or the

10 Muslim part of Sarajevo to cross into civilian territory. To do so,

11 10.000 German marks had to be paid to the Muslim authorities. He also

12 noticed that there was no electricity in his building. However, there

13 was in the Muslim flats in the building next to his.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, I should only like to ask you, how are you able and

16 under what circumstances to see what was going on outside your building?

17 On what occasions were you able to see all that was in existence in

18 Hrasnica?

19 A. I was not able to see anything, because I had no electricity.

20 The TV did not work. It's not like there was always electricity. It was

21 available later when they switched it on from Pazaric and some people got

22 power back, but not me.

23 Q. Under what circumstances were you able to move around Hrasnica,

24 on what occasions?

25 A. As for Hrasnica, I was able to move around, but I did not get out

Page 32059

1 except those times when I got news that somebody got killed or died, and

2 then I went out to bury them.

3 Q. Whom did you bury in Hrasnica?

4 A. I buried Serbs who died or got killed while digging trenches on

5 the forward line.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic. I have no further questions for you for

7 the time being.

8 A. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.

10 Yes, Mr. Zec.

11 Before you do that. Mr. Ivanovic, do you hear me well?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Your evidence in chief has been admitted

14 in writing and now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

15 Office of the Prosecutor. Do you understand that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Zec.

18 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic. I will be asking you --

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. I will be asking you several questions about the statement that

23 you provided. First, can you tell us was it Milomir Savcic,

24 representative of the Karadzic Defence team, who talked to you and took

25 the statement from you?

Page 32060

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your statement, it's in paragraph 2, you say that you marked a

3 map to identify several locations in Hrasnica, and the map is ID08552,

4 which has received Exhibit D02764.

5 MR. ZEC: And if we could look at the map.

6 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, I assume you don't speak or write English, do you?

7 A. No. No. That's right.

8 Q. So if you look at the map, we can see titles of the locations in

9 English. So my understanding is that you didn't actually mark this map

10 but perhaps something else based on which this map was produced. Would

11 it be correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Also in your statement you indicate there was a post office in

14 Hrasnica. Would you be able to mark on this map the location of the

15 post -- of the post office?

16 A. The post office was close to the two high-rises, as far as I

17 know.

18 Q. I understand, but would you be able to mark on the map? If not,

19 you can say, no problem.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. We can move on. In paragraph 2 of the statement, you

22 referred to Muslim soldiers. As I understand from your statement, these

23 soldiers were living in the apartments in Hrasnica, and they were leaving

24 their homes in order to take positions at front lines outside Hrasnica.

25 Is this correct understanding of your statement?

Page 32061

1 A. Yes, yes. They did not have their own barracks.

2 Q. And they -- in fact, they were living in their apartments

3 together with their other family members; correct?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Would you be able to tell us if you can remember how many

6 families lived in Hrasnica during the war?

7 A. Well, before the war lots of them lived in Hrasnica. During the

8 war, some fled to the Serbian side, and only about 30 per cent of the

9 pre-war population were left, and we were all involved in the work

10 platoon or civilian protection. I mean only men.

11 Q. Okay. In paragraph 2 of your statement, you say that in April

12 1992, the Muslims attacked Krtelj. So when you say Krtelj, you're

13 actually referring to a location near Ilidza where the building of the

14 Special Police Unit of the BiH MUP was located; correct?

15 A. Yes. Close to Butmir. That's where the police building was even

16 before the war.

17 Q. Okay. Let me show you an official report prepared by

18 Tihomir Glavas who was chief of the Serb police station at Ilidza, and it

19 talks about this event at Krtelj.

20 MR. ZEC: And if we can have P02308.

21 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you will see a report that talks about the events

22 prior and after the establishment of the Serb police station at Ilidza.

23 At page 2 in both languages it talks about events at Krtelj and says:

24 "First armed action by police members was organised for April

25 1992 on the building of MUP special unit in Krtelj..."

Page 32062

1 Then it goes on, refers to convoys of Muslims coming in. And

2 then says:

3 "In the armed conflict that took place on this spot, one Muslim

4 was found, 12 armoured devices were captured, as well as big amount of

5 other equipment." Also says that two convoys were captured near the

6 health centre at Ilidza.

7 So, Mr. Ivanovic, according to this report there was a conflict

8 in Krtelj on 4 April 1992, and the Serb police members seized equipment.

9 Do you accept that?

10 A. I don't know about that. I did not see it. All I know was that

11 people said that two APCs had been brought to Hrasnica. I mean the

12 Muslim side brought them.

13 Q. And these personal carriers from Krtelj were also used that --

14 that they were captured from Krtelj, they were also used by the Serbian

15 Territorial Defence. Did you know that?

16 A. I do not know about that. I did not know that, and I did not see

17 that.

18 MR. ZEC: Can we call 65 ter 32786.

19 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you're going to see now transcript of the intercept

20 telephone conversation between Miroslav Gagovic and Fikret Abdic from 15

21 May 1992. Miroslav Gagovic was a colonel in the JNA in Sarajevo and

22 Fikret Abdic was a prominent political figure.

23 At page 2 in B/C/S and English 3, from line 25, Gagovic said I'm

24 not going -- this is Gagovic speaking on the phone to Fikret Abdic, and

25 he said:

Page 32063

1 "I'm not going into the matter of them having fire from the

2 personal carriers which we took from Krtelj."

3 Fikret Abdic asked:

4 "Who has them?"

5 Gagovic said:

6 "Well, the Serbian Territorial Defence has them."

7 And the next page in English. Gagovic says:

8 "Police ones. They have six of them, like police ones. Those

9 guys over there painted them. That's down there near the part towards

10 Ilidza. It could be that those are, but my men were not. But they know

11 each other. They have those recoilless guns installed up there. That's

12 the difference compared to our personnel carrier. Our one did not."

13 Mr. Ivanovic, as you can see, the Serbian Territorial Defence

14 used the personnel carriers from Krtelj and they were shooting from them.

15 Did you know that?

16 A. No. No.

17 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I would offer this intercept into

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE KWON: Well -- yes, Mr. Robinson.

20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mr. President. Can the Prosecution

21 confirm that this is one of those that has been part of their chart as

22 having been authenticated?

23 JUDGE KWON: Knowing the practice of the Chamber, what's the

24 basis on your part to tender this intercept, Mr. Zec? In particular as

25 regards the authenticity.

Page 32064

1 MR. ZEC: As regards the authenticity, Your Honours, you remember

2 that Mr. Gagovic testified on Tuesday, and he accepted as genuine all the

3 intercepts that were presented to him. And those --

4 JUDGE KWON: I don't remember that he was -- he commented upon

5 this intercept.

6 MR. ZEC: Not this particular one, but all other intercepts that

7 he was speaker of and he confirmed the authenticity of them.

8 JUDGE KWON: Was he shown this intercept at all?

9 MR. ZEC: This is the sort of the intercept that he was shown.

10 And I refer your attention P06071, which is another intercept with

11 Gagovic and Smajic of 11 May 1992. And if you compare these two

12 intercepts, they -- the format is the same, the source that we got from

13 is the same, and even commenting on Smajic -- Gagovic-Smajic intercept,

14 Mr. Gagovic said that he remembered that intercept very well. That's on

15 transcript page 31878. And there he also on transcript he referred that

16 he was in contact and he talked to Abdic. And now we have another

17 intercept four day later which is Mr. Gagovic and Abdic.

18 Also, we can offer you audio recordings of these intercepts if

19 you want to compare them.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. In principle, we're not

22 concerned about the reliability of these intercepts in a vacuum, but we

23 want to make sure that the Defence intercepts and the Prosecution

24 intercepts are treated the same, and so far it looks like the Defence

25 intercepts are blocked by a feeling that unless they had been included in

Page 32074

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Miscevic, as you have now noted, your evidence

2 in chief in this case has been admit in writing, i.e., through your

3 statement. Now you'll be cross-examined by the member of the Office of

4 the Prosecutor.

5 Mr. File.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. File:

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Miscevic. Can you hear me in a language you

8 understand?

9 A. Yes, I can.

10 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to Exhibit 65 ter 24391. Do you

11 recognise this as a map of the area surrounding Hrasnica centre?

12 A. Yes, I do. But it is very small --

13 Q. Please take a look -- if you would, please take a look at the

14 four locations that are circled in red. You will see Bijela Kosa,

15 Radeljevaca, Vrhovi, and Kotorni Cairi.

16 A. Yes, I can see that. I don't know anything about that.

17 Q. I would just like to ask you about the location --

18 A. I have never been here.

19 Q. Do you recognise those areas as being located in the hills

20 leading up to Mount Igman behind Hrasnica?

21 A. I know nothing about this. I'm not familiar with these places at

22 all.

23 Q. I'm just asking you to look at the map and to see where they are

24 located. Are you familiar with Mount Igman?

25 A. Of course, I am. I have been there when I went to collect fuel

Page 32075

1 wood. I know Igman but I've never been to any of these places here.

2 Q. But can you see these places on the map are between Hrasnica

3 centre and Mount Igman?

4 A. Yes, I can see all those places.

5 Q. Your Honours, for your own reference, these four locations

6 represent the locations of the armaments of the ABiH 4th Motorised

7 Brigade Mixed Artillery Battalion as described in D779 at the bottom of

8 page 2 in the B/C/S and page 3 to 4 in the English, which is an SRK

9 command order by Dragomir Milosevic dated 27 March 1995 describing four

10 mortar platoons and one howitzer. I would tender that document into

11 evidence.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We object to that, and I

14 think this last piece of information was really not something that was

15 appropriate since it's not part of the evidence. It's a submission. So

16 we don't think the witness has given any information that would justify

17 the admission of the document, and the references to what the document

18 depicts is not evidence from the Prosecutor and therefore shouldn't be

19 considered by the Chamber.

20 MR. FILE: If I may respond briefly.

21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. File.

22 MR. FILE: The description is not my own description. It's the

23 description that appears of these places in Exhibit D779. The witness

24 has confirmed that this is a map of the area surrounding Hrasnica, and

25 therefore this is only tendered as an aid for the Tribunal to understand

Page 32076

1 where those locations are.

2 MR. ROBINSON: But the witness hasn't confirmed that.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. File, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson's

5 observation. You may have different way in which you can tender the

6 explanation based upon Exhibit D779. We'll not admit this one through

7 this witness.

8 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Miscevic, I'd like to turn your attention to paragraph 10 of

10 your statement. There you say I know an aerial bomb hit a house near

11 Aleksa Santic school. Are we talking about the air-bomb attacking

12 Hrasnica on 7 April, 1995?

13 A. I don't know what type of bomb that was, whether it was an aerial

14 bomb or some other kind of bomb. I only heard an unknown sound,

15 something like a ventilator close to my skyscraper, and a few seconds

16 later I heard an explosion. I don't know anything else. I don't know

17 what the bomb was. I don't know anything more about that. I only saw

18 the place where it fell. I saw that it had a huge destructive power, and

19 that's all I know.

20 Q. So just to be clear, when you said in your statement, "I know

21 that an aerial bomb hit a house opposite the Aleksa Santic school," you

22 in fact do not know that it was an aerial bomb. Is that your testimony?

23 A. I don't know that. It fell. Some device fell, and its

24 destructive power was much larger than the previously fired ten shells.

25 There was a very loud detonation. I went by that house every day. I saw

Page 32077

1 what the bomb had done to it. I don't know whether anybody was in the

2 house when the bomb fell. I don't know whether anybody was killed. I

3 learned later that that had been an aerial bomb or something of the kind.

4 I only saw that house that was destroyed.

5 Q. Mr. Miscevic, in -- in your statement, you go on to say the owner

6 of the house was a man named Lokvancic [phoen], and then you say the

7 house was dilapidated and old and was in a very poor state.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, can you tell us why did you feel it was necessary --

10 A. Yes. One of the most --

11 Q. Mr. Miscevic. My question was: Why did you feel it was

12 necessary to add this detail about the condition of the house? Are you

13 trying to minimise the damage that was caused by the aerial bomb by

14 claiming that the destroyed home was already in poor condition before it

15 was blown up?

16 A. No. No. Far from that. If it had fallen on my skyscraper, it

17 may have destroyed half of it. It landed some 20 metres away of that.

18 It hit that building by accident, and I don't even know whether there was

19 anybody residing in it at the time. It was by accident. It was by

20 accident that the bomb hit the oldest house. It may have hit the school

21 or something else.

22 Q. Mr. Miscevic, I'm afraid that wasn't my question. I was asking

23 you why did you feel the need to add this detail about the condition of

24 the house in your statement.

25 A. I was not thinking about that at all. I just mentioned what I

Page 32078

1 knew. That detail doesn't matter at all.

2 Q. I'd like to discuss the map of Hrasnica that you mention in your

3 statement, which was admitted as D2766. This map has a number of

4 typewritten designations in English with red arrows pointing to

5 particular buildings and locations. First of all, can you read and write

6 in English?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So you -- so you did not personally create this map yourself?

9 A. I only marked the locations where I reside, where the school is,

10 where the bank used to be. All that is written in my statement. I

11 showed the places and locations in Hrasnica because I know Hrasnica.

12 I've been here for 60 years.

13 Q. My question was: You did not mark this exact map, did you? You

14 marked a different map.

15 A. I marked it here. Yes. Yes, this is the map.

16 Q. So my question --

17 A. I marked it on this map. Right on this map.

18 Q. So then my question would be you just testified that you could

19 not read and write in English, but yet there are markings in English on

20 this map. So you did not make those markings; is that correct?

21 A. No, not in English. I only marked the locations that I knew, and

22 I marked it in the language that I understand.

23 Q. Can I turn your attention to 1D8562, which appears to be a

24 handwritten map. Is this the map that you marked personally yourself?

25 A. I drew this with my own hand, explaining positions in Hrasnica.

Page 32079

1 I marked this in my own hand.

2 Q. And was this the map that you gave to the Defence to form the

3 basis for the map that we looked at previously?

4 A. Yes. I saw this map, because I found it difficult to orientate

5 myself on the original map. That's why I made my own markings of the

6 positions of the skyscraper where I live, the post office, and where the

7 bank used to be, the features that I mentioned in my statement. And I

8 did it quickly in my own hand, although if I had had more time, I could

9 have done it better and in greater detail. This is just a part of all of

10 this. I marked it in my own hand.

11 Q. Mr. Miscevic, you just testified that on this handwritten map you

12 marked the post office as well as the skyscraper where you used to live,

13 but I'm afraid I'm having trouble seeing where you marked those

14 locations. Could you indicate where on that map you marked those.

15 A. Here is the skyscraper where I live. This is the skyscraper

16 where the police was, and this is the post office where the command was

17 located.

18 Q. Is there -- is there anything written on this map which says

19 "skyscraper" or "post office"?

20 A. No. I did not write anything. I just marked locations. I

21 didn't write anything. And on this other map that I drew, this is the

22 building that I marked. That's the skyscraper where I live.

23 Q. Okay. Let's return to that map D2766, because I'd like to ask

24 you some questions about the post office?

25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. File. I noted that witness drew

Page 32080

1 something or marked something on the map. Would you like to have it back

2 or are you happy to continue without it?

3 MR. FILE: I don't know if it's possible to see that from here.

4 JUDGE KWON: Could the court deputy -- court deputy show the map

5 marked to the camera.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes. The markings are right here.

7 He circled. I'm not sure if it's visible.

8 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's continue.

9 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] The right --

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please keep it just in case and then let's

11 continue.

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] And the witness has also marked --

13 also marked the sketch right here.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Just keep them, both of them, just in

15 case, and we'll continue how it goes.

16 Please continue, Mr. File.

17 MR. FILE: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Now, looking at the map that was admitted, D2766, in the upper

19 left hand quadrant of that map there is in capital letters "Post office,

20 command for MTBR ABiH, and then further south and a little to the east

21 there's a building circled and identified as Aleksa Santic school. And

22 then if you go even further south into the east, you have a green dot and

23 the number 10, which reflects the location of the air-bomb attack we were

24 just discussing. Is this a correct reading of your map?

25 A. You're asking me?

Page 32081

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. This is number 10, the school, and the air-bomb landed somewhere

3 here, right here. I can't locate it precisely from these other features

4 around, but it fell somewhere here near the school, not more than 100

5 metres from the school, to the east.

6 Q. Is this the area marked as number 10 that you're referring to?

7 A. Number 10 is the school. This is close by.

8 Q. Looking at the map --

9 A. It's not marked here, but it's right here. It's not number 10.

10 Number 10 is the school, Aleksa Santic school.

11 Q. Now, I understand this to be a change to what is written on the

12 map currently. If you look at where just below number 10 there's the

13 word "Hrasnica," and below that is the word -- or the phrase "Aleksa

14 Santic school" with a red arrow that points to --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So are you saying this annotation, "Aleksa Santic school" with

17 the red arrow, is not pointing to the correct location of the school?

18 A. Yes. It's correctly marked. That is the house, number 10.

19 Excuse me. That was the hotel or the community centre. There was also a

20 cinema inside at number 10.

21 Q. You're saying that the area of number 10 represents a house and a

22 cinema and a community centre?

23 A. Number 10, that's the community centre or hotel, as you wish.

24 The cinema, the library, and community rooms were inside at number 10.

25 Q. And do you understand that to be the location where the bomb

Page 32082

1 landed?

2 A. It's a hundred metres to the east, further east towards Glamoc,

3 100 metres from the school.

4 Q. Okay. So if we assume that the air-bomb landed 100 metres to the

5 east of this marking of number 10 --

6 JUDGE KWON: I don't think witness said 100 metre from number 10.

7 What he said, 100 metre from the school.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the school, yes.

9 MR. FILE:

10 Q. So where would that be in relation to the marking of number 10 on

11 this map?

12 JUDGE KWON: Let's be sure. Mr. File, could you be clearer by

13 number 10? Do you mean the number 10 or the dot beside it?

14 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Yes, Mr. Miscevic, I'm referring to the dot that is labelled

16 number 10. Not the actual numbers but the dot.

17 A. The source was here, the Hrasnica source, mineral source.

18 Q. Mr. Miscevic, my question is simply whether that dot reflects the

19 location where the bomb landed.

20 A. It's here. That's where it landed. Somewhere here to the east.

21 To the left of the school, that is, to the east, 100 metres, not more.

22 Q. You just said to the left of the school, that is to the east.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] If I might clarify, Your Honours.

24 The witness is looking at the map upside down. I tried to turn it for

25 him, but -- but he prefers to look at it upside down. So when he says

Page 32083

1 it's to the left, it's to the left when you see it upside down.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Doraiswamy.

3 Please continue, Mr. File.

4 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. So if we assume that the location where the bomb landed is to the

6 east of the dot that is indicated on this map --

7 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure the witness said to the east of that

8 dot. The witness said so. He said east of the school.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] East of the school.

10 MR. FILE:

11 Q. Okay. Do you know where that would be in relation to the green

12 dot that's on the map?

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I'm giving him

14 the -- the witness the coloured map now. He was looking at the black and

15 white version.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that's the problem -- was the problem. Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's here somewhere, in this area.

18 That is it. It's somewhere in this area roughly.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Miscevic, let me ask you, does -- do you hear me

20 Mr. Miscevic?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

22 JUDGE KWON: Do you see the green dot Mr. Prosecutor referred to

23 on the map?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

25 JUDGE KWON: Does that place -- does that position reflect the

Page 32084

1 location where the bomb landed at the time? He.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, it doesn't.

3 JUDGE KWON: Then where is the position where the bomb landed?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] East. I marked it here. Somewhere

5 in this area.

6 JUDGE KWON: Since we cannot see the marking --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not marked.

8 JUDGE KWON: Is it to the east of that green dot, Mr. Miscevic?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] East of the green dot. Perhaps 300

10 metres from the green dot.

11 JUDGE KWON: Do you see a school on the map, Mr. Miscevic?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it. It says number 10 next

13 to the school. There's a circle, and inside the circle is the school.

14 JUDGE KWON: Well, I'll leave it there. Mr. File, please

15 continue.

16 MR. FILE:

17 Q. So just to make sure that I understand what you're testifying

18 about, the locations of three different items on this map, you have the

19 post office a little bit to the north and west of the area we were just

20 looking at, you have the school which you've marked, which is to the

21 south of the post office, and then you have the location where the bomb

22 landed, which you said is to the east of the green dot.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. From my skyscraper to

24 the south is the school. It's not marked correctly here. This is the

25 Aleksa Santic school. And number 10 is the community centre. Between

Page 32085

1 the school and the community centre, 100 metres to the east is where the

2 bomb fell. That house is not drawn here.

3 Q. Okay. I'd like to read you a sentence of testimony from a

4 Defence witness Ilidza Brigade commander Vladimir Radojcic from 12

5 December, 2012. This was at transcript page 31267. In his testimony he

6 said:

7 "In the information I got from UNPROFOR and the people who had

8 fled Sarajevo, the air-bomb that was launched landed exactly between the

9 school and the post office building."

10 Now, looking at the map that you made --

11 A. That's not true.

12 Q. Okay. Now, I would also like --

13 A. That's not true.

14 Q. I would also like to refer you to Exhibit D2562. This is the

15 witness statement from that same witness. And I'm going to ask for page

16 5 of the B/C/S and page 4 of the English.

17 Now, I'm just showing you so you can read along in paragraph 20,

18 in the middle of paragraph 20 he says:

19 "On document 1D8396, I marked with a square the post office in

20 Hrasnica in which the command of the 104 MTBR Motorised Brigade of the

21 BHA 1 K was accommodated. The post office was located in the very centre

22 of Hrasnica. On the same document, 1D8396, I marked with a circle the

23 building of the Aleksa Santic school."

24 Now I'm going to show you that map which is Exhibit D2590. So

25 here you see the building in the middle with the square around it that --

Page 32086

1 that Witness Radojcic said was the post office, and you see the building

2 with the circle that he said was the school. Now, according to you, this

3 map is also incorrect because the square that indicates the post office

4 is indicating the wrong building; is that right?

5 JUDGE KWON: Have we passed another 40 minutes?

6 MR. FILE:

7 Q. Mr. Miscevic, my question to you is does that building with the

8 square around it --

9 A. This square -- this square here is the community centre. The

10 school is this ellipsis or circle.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. FILE: Your Honours, I just have two final brief areas of

13 questions that thankfully do not require the use of the map.

14 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.

15 MR. FILE:

16 Q. Mr. Miscevic, in paragraph 8 of your statement you said the

17 Muslims manufactured shells in the gym of the Aleksa Santic school, and

18 then you add that there was an annealing furnace in the gym which was

19 used for annealing shells. Did you see this with your own eyes or did

20 you hear this from someone?

21 A. I saw that. I know that. That was only the steeling, whereas

22 the production was in garages between those two skyscrapers, mine and

23 where the commander was. Those were -- that was an underground car park.

24 There were several machines in there, and workers came every day, and I

25 saw some of my friends who worked there every day. That was no secret.

Page 32087

1 Everybody who lived in the neighbourhood saw that, and they returned

2 those processed shells by forklifts back to their -- the other

3 installation for steeling.

4 Q. Thank you. I would like to read to you again the testimony of

5 Colonel Radojcic, this time from the 11th of December, 2012, at

6 transcript page 31258, lines 11 and 12. He says the -- he describes the

7 school as "the place where ammunition was being manufactured for a little

8 while during the war."

9 Do you agree with this characterization that it was manufactured

10 for a little while?

11 A. No. There was no production going on in the school. The only

12 thing that was going on was melting in the gym, a manufacturing process

13 took place somewhere else. And I've already told you that. That was

14 next to my skyscraper in the basement, next to the place where I resided.

15 That workshop was 10 metres away from my apartment.

16 Q. I'd like to move to paragraph 9 of your statement where you say

17 that you saw with your own eyes a Muslim combatant nicknamed

18 Kamlica [phoen] firing shells in the direction of the Serbian territory

19 from a truck that had a mortar attached to it that was near your

20 skyscraper. In that part of your statement you say that he would flee

21 and then take shelter elsewhere and that the Serbian side would return

22 fire five to ten minutes later. And you say that this happened several

23 times and that your skyscraper was quite damaged. Where were you when

24 you were observing this?

25 A. From my balcony I saw all that. I lived on the fifth floor. But

Page 32088

1 I didn't see it several times. I saw that truck, and I saw that fire was

2 opened from it, but I know that it was in the -- in the Serb direction.

3 Very soon there was a response and shells started falling around the

4 skyscraper, but who responded to that fire I don't have a clue. I

5 realized only later that there was some technology involved that could

6 locate it, the place from which it was fire, but very quickly it would

7 move and it would be hid in a garage or a sheltered place. And I saw

8 that with my own eyes.

9 Q. Mr. Miscevic, just to be clear, you say in your statement that

10 this happened several times, and you also say in your statement that the

11 Serbian side would return fire five to ten minutes later; is that

12 correct?

13 A. The Serb side opened fire every day. One has to be fair and say

14 that. But when fire was opened from Hrasnica - I don't know in what

15 direction - very soon there would be a response, maybe ten minutes later.

16 A response would arrive every time. So there were casualties, civilian

17 casualties, in my skyscraper, casualties of all ethnicities.

18 Q. What kind of weapons do you know were used to respond? Were

19 there artillery gun shells?

20 A. Mostly shells.

21 Q. Were there --

22 A. Mostly shells.

23 Q. Were there also mortar shells?

24 A. All sorts of shells fell on my skyscraper, but mostly mortar

25 shells in response.

Page 32089

1 Q. How many times was your own skyscraper hit?

2 A. My apartment was hit six or seven times, for example, but the

3 skyscraper itself was hit over a hundred times.

4 Q. And you were living in your apartment with your daughter as well?

5 A. Yes. I still live there.

6 Q. Is it fair to say that each time your building was hit by shells

7 that you and your daughter were terrified?

8 A. My daughter was in the basement. I, however, could not be in the

9 basement, because I had been operated upon previously. I had received

10 radiotherapy, and that's why I was in my apartment. Of course I was

11 scared. I was in my apartment three or four times when heavy artillery,

12 perhaps even a tank -- tanks opened fire on my apartment. However, I was

13 only slightly wounded. I can even say that I was not injured, but my

14 apartment was seriously damaged as a result.

15 MR. FILE: I have no more questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, four or five questions,

18 Excellency. It can be done quickly, but if you want us to have a break

19 first, we can do that as well.

20 JUDGE KWON: Do you think you can finish your re-examination in

21 five minutes?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope so.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE KWON: Please go on, Mr. Karadzic, then.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 32094

1 Mr. Vujicic, do you hear me in your language that you understand?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

3 JUDGE KWON: Would you kindly make the solemn declaration,

4 please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Vujicic. Please make yourself

8 comfortable.

9 WITNESS: MILUTIN VUJICIC

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vujicic.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. First of all, let me ask you to pause before you start giving

17 your answer. I have to remind myself of the same for the benefit of the

18 interpreters.

19 A. I shall certainly do my best.

20 Q. Thank you. Have you provided a statement to my Defence team?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I could like to call up 1D07011 in

24 e-court.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32095

1 Q. Is this the statement, the one you see on the screen?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. I would like to ask you about some ambiguities with regard to the

4 years. In paragraph 3, it says that in September of 1991, the Serbian

5 Democratic Party was set up in Foca. Was that in 1991, after the

6 elections, or was it actually set up in 1990, before the elections?

7 A. I know very well that the Serbian Democratic Party was

8 established in Foca. It was publicly announced in September of 1991 at

9 the stadium in Foca. Much later than the Party of Democratic Action was

10 set up if Foca, in Donje Polje, on the right bank of the Drina River.

11 Q. Thank you. And now can we look at paragraph 11. I would like

12 you to clarify something for us in paragraph 11. That will be on page 3.

13 A. Well, I'll be waiting for your questions. It's very difficult

14 for me to find the paragraphs myself.

15 Q. Please look at paragraph 11 where you say that in the so-called

16 Partizan sports facility there were a lot of civilians, exclusively

17 women. And before that, you say that Muslims were protected by your

18 guards. Who were those female civilians which were protected at the

19 Partizan Sports Hall?

20 A. That sports hall is some hundred metres away from the building

21 where I resided at the time and where I still reside. I was not

22 mobilised. I didn't carry a gun, because I was too old, but I was

23 requested to assist with something. I know that a commissioner appointed

24 me to stand guard on some nights next to the Partizan Sports Hall. It's

25 a miniature sports hall. I was given a rifle on those occasions, and I

Page 32096

1 was told that mostly women were kept there. I don't know how old. I

2 don't know how many. They were inside. I never opened the door. It was

3 during the night hours, and we were told that those civilians had to be

4 guarded while we were on duty. I had a rifle, and I was told that if

5 somebody tried to force their way into the facility, you had to warn him

6 first and then you can open fire. However, luckily enough while I stood

7 guard for those three or four nights, nobody came. Nobody tried to

8 enter. I did not have to clash with anybody.

9 Those women, if they were indeed women - they probably

10 were - they never tried to leave that facility. I can tell you why the

11 female population was there. When the conflicts ended in Foca and when

12 calm returned to Foca, the focus of armed conflict shifted to the

13 villages in Foca municipality. Foca municipality was one of the biggest

14 in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. A wide theatre of war was

15 opened, and not every house, not every piece of the territory could be

16 covered. And in any war, undesired consequences may be expected, so the

17 village population, the infirm and fable [as interpreted], and the

18 civilians were recommended for their own safety to go to the Partizan

19 Sports Hall, and that's where the females decided to go in order not to

20 be disturbed. So those village women arrived there? And as far as I

21 know, during the day those females could leave those facilities, whereas

22 during the night hours there were guards who guarded them.

23 Sometime in the second half of April, I was mobilised as some

24 other people remained. They stood guard, and they received the same

25 instructions as I did. I don't know what transpired next.

Page 32097

1 Q. Thank you. Did I understand you properly? Were those Muslims

2 from the villages that were affected by conflicts?

3 A. Yes, precisely. Those people came from villages that were some

4 10 to 15 kilometres away from Foca. Neither Serbian forces nor the

5 police could guarantee their safety. They could not promise them that

6 they wouldn't go unscathed. When the Muslim armed forces left those

7 villages, they remained unprotected, and those of the people who were

8 left behind were women and elderly. Men would be accommodated in some

9 other facilities where they were protected. For example, they were

10 accommodated in the penal institute. There were Serbs and Muslims there,

11 and they were some of the convicts who had been tried before the war,

12 whereas the female population was accommodated in some facilities where

13 there was room as a rule.

14 When it comes to Foca and the female population that remained

15 there, the civilian authorities, i.e., the police, secured those houses

16 which housed a large number of women. For example, in Mahala, there were

17 two or three women in a house. Then one night a guard was appointed. He

18 carried a rifle. A paramilitary arrived from somewhere and tried to

19 break in -- into that house. That was in the month of April. The guard

20 warned him several times. The -- that person did not want to listen.

21 The guard opened fire and killed that paramilitary.

22 What I'm trying to say is that that person was given the same

23 instruction as those who stood guard in front of the Partizan Sports

24 Hall.

25 Q. After all those clarifications, would you say your statement is

Page 32098

1 the accurate reflection of your words?

2 A. Yes. I just related those things that I saw with my own eyes and

3 things that are true.

4 Q. Did you sign the statement?

5 A. Yes, I did. I stand by it. I did not give the statement under

6 duress.

7 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, the same ones

8 that were put to you before you gave your statement, would your answers

9 be the same?

10 A. I suppose that they would be. Maybe in the meantime, there -- I

11 have remembered some other things. If you asked me some different

12 questions or if you put your questions differently, maybe I would

13 remember some other details.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

16 package, and I will have a few questions after I read the witness's

17 statement summary.

18 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honour. Good morning

20 everyone. Yes. Indeed. I have already sent an e-mail to all sides and

21 have requested that paragraph 4 of this statement be excluded.

22 Yesterday, in two oral decisions related to the witness

23 Pljevaljcic, you ordered the exclusion of paragraphs from the statement

24 dealing with the Focatrans affair in 1998 and 1990, and here paragraph 4

25 deals with this very same event in very similar terms, although shorter,

Page 32099

1 and I would like this paragraph to be excluded, because there is no

2 relevance to this trial.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We agree in the light of your

4 decision regarding this issue. The Defence accepts this objection.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE KWON: I don't think all of that paragraph deals with

7 Focatrans events, so I would order the first two sentences to be redacted

8 from the paragraph.

9 But in addition to this one, I note, Mr. Karadzic or

10 Mr. Robinson, six paragraphs have been added after the proofing with this

11 witness, but I found some of the translations incomprehensible. Examples

12 of those sentences are second sentence of para 28, fourth sentence of

13 para 29, and the third sentence of para 33. So I would order the -- a

14 revised translation to be uploaded as soon as possible.

15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. We'll do that, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE KWON: So with that understanding, we'll admit the

17 Rule 92 ter statement of this witness.

18 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit D2767. Thank you.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please continue.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to read a

21 summary of Mr. Vujicic's statement in English.

22 [In English] Milutin Vujicic was a guard at the Partizan hall in

23 Foca and a soldier until May 1994.

24 In mid-1991, he attended meetings of the SDA in its formation and

25 noted the provocative nature of the meeting particularly in relation to

Page 32100

1 the topics of Serbian Foca and Serb people. The leader Alija Izetbegovic

2 said that BH had to be an independent state, and if people did not want

3 this, they should go and live in another area.

4 The SDS was not set up until September 1991. At a rally a number

5 of representatives from the other parties and municipalities were invited

6 to attend and given the chance to speak, an opportunity that was not

7 afforded to the SDS at the others' rallies. The rally was not

8 provocative in nature, and for the first year the parties co-existed.

9 Before the fighting broke out, an incident occurred at Foca --

10 mm-hmm. That is out. I'll skip it.

11 At that time, Muslim officers and soldiers who were in military

12 service discontinued and discharged their military service and instead

13 joined the Green Berets. The Green Berets were under the command of the

14 BH Army, and members of this organisation appeared on the street --

15 streets before the fighting started. People also began arming themselves

16 at that point -- at this point, and the Muslims armed themselves much

17 earlier than the Serbs and many underwent military training in 1991.

18 Serbian people began arming themselves very late in 1992, usually

19 only with rifles or light infantry weapons seized from the depots of the

20 former JNA. Milutin Vujicic saw Muslim forces fighting from several

21 mosques, and he also saw a call for Muslim personnel to place themselves

22 at the disposal of the Green Berets.

23 There were rumours of splitting Foca along ethnic lines and the

24 clashes began when the -- when the misunderstandings culminated. The

25 Muslim forces torched several Serbian houses in April 1992. Foca was

Page 32101

1 liberated by Serb forces from Muslim paramilitaries a few days later.

2 There were no paramilitary formations from the Republic of Serbia near

3 Foca. However, there were other paramilitary formations nearby, and

4 these caused Serbian people a lot of harm.

5 Milutin Vujicic saw that measures were taken to protect the

6 Muslim population of Foca municipality from paramilitaries. Inhabitant

7 of distant villages where Muslim forces could not be -- when the

8 paramilitaries could not be controlled, were brought to the town and

9 placed in certain facilities where they could be defended. Many of these

10 people were women and children. Some were housed in the Partizan sports

11 facility which he guarded himself. If residents wished to remain in

12 their properties, they were able to do so but were warned of the danger

13 from the paramilitaries.

14 Vrbnica village, Serbian village, was completely razed to the

15 ground on 8th of April, 1992. Many more soldiers were called up in May

16 1992 as the Foca municipality was not able to defend all of the borders

17 and Muslim forces were entering Serbian villages and committing heinous

18 crimes.

19 Before being sent to the front line, Milutin Vujicic read the

20 rules of conduct of the Serbian armed forces which contained provisions

21 of the Geneva Conventions on war and conflicts. These provisions were

22 announced again to all the soldiers before they left ensuring that they

23 were away of them. Further, the soldiers were told that when mopping up

24 villages from Muslim paramilitaries, the civilian population and their

25 farms, houses, and other mobile and immobile property were completely off

Page 32102

1 limits and every transgression strictly punished.

2 Many Muslim inhabitants began leaving Foca. They asked to leave,

3 requested -- and requested that their relocation be protected by -- both

4 of these were granted. The Muslims were not forced to leave and were

5 made aware of this fact. However, they did this voluntarily.

6 During the year in which Milutin Vujicic fought on the front

7 line, the soldiers were attacked several times by the Muslim armed

8 formations from in front of and also from behind. However, the army

9 carried out mainly defensive operations. After the withdrawal of the

10 JNA, the Republika Srpska armed forces mainly took infantry weapons from

11 the JNA depots in the territory. Muslim forces took heavier weapons from

12 the depots which were used against the Serb population. No trenches were

13 dug in Foca. These were only dug on the front line. There was no heavy

14 artillery around Foca. The armed forces around Foca had no artillery,

15 and the only the tank that the Serb forces had was one that had been left

16 by the JNA as it was damaged. This had to be repaired by the Serbian

17 forces and acquitted -- acquired in June 1992.

18 [Interpretation] That would be the summary.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Vujicic, do you know you --

21 JUDGE KWON: I forgot to ask you, Mr. Vujicic, to tell me at any

22 point of time if you do not hear the proceedings well or you feel

23 uncomfortable at any point in time. Do you understand that, sir?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear well only when questions

25 are being asked. The rest of the sound has some interference in it. I

Page 32103

1 can only answer questions from any party.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And please speak slow for the benefit of

3 the interpreters and us.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Sometimes I get

7 carried away. But I understand very well. I know what interpreting is.

8 I know it's a very hard job.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Just a few more questions, Mr. Vujicic. Is the name

12 Senad Sahimpasic, nickname Saja, familiar to you?

13 A. Yes, it's very familiar. That's a man who was born in Foca.

14 Began his studies. As far as I know he did not complete them. He

15 started with trade in agricultural produce, fruit and vegetables, and he

16 was doing very fell in Foca. He became a wealthy man. But I know that

17 very early on, even before the 1990s, in 1989 he became politically

18 active in the Muslim community and he was the first president of the SDA

19 party in Foca. I know him still. He lives in Ustikolina nowadays.

20 Ustikolina is a local commune of the former municipality of Foca.

21 Q. Thank you. Did you Mr. Sahimpasic have a warehouse -- sorry.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Did he have a publication, a publishing house?

25 A. Yes, he did publish a newspaper. It was a Muslim nationalist

Page 32104

1 newspaper that published stories which disrupted the co-existence and

2 unity between Serbs and Muslims in Foca. He published political

3 platforms, announced to Muslims how very soon a new sovereign Muslim

4 dominated Bosnia would be formed, and if the Serbs do not accept that,

5 things are in store for them, all sorts of things, and this newspaper was

6 called "Fokus," "Fokus." Before 1991, I road a story in "Fokus," a

7 programme of 12 points listing what would happen to Serbs if they don't

8 accept such developments in Bosnia. I can even tell you about some of

9 these 12 points and what exactly they said.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show 1D07558, please.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

12 Q. What do you see on the screen, Mr. Vujicic?

13 A. This is this newspaper "Vox." "Vox." I remember this story, and

14 I remember this picture.

15 Q. And whose heads are those at the bottom?

16 A. They look like Chetniks with these fur hats. They look like

17 Chetnik hats. And the man with his foot on somebody's head is dressed in

18 Turkish costume with a typical hat.

19 Q. Can we see page 41.

20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's just a story I remember.

22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Vujicic.

23 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we were not notified that any

25 other exhibit except for the statement would be used with this witness.

Page 32105

1 I do not really see why now we are presented with this kind of pamphlet.

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What is your response to this, Mr. Karadzic?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My mistake. I apologise, and I

4 kindly ask for flexibility, because we always try to be flexible in

5 similar situations.

6 JUDGE KWON: And we have no translation, and it's difficult to

7 follow.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a translation. We can put

9 it on the ELMO. I only want the witness to confirm that that is indeed

10 the story and how it affected the spirits in Foca.

11 JUDGE KWON: I will consult my colleagues.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. The Chamber will allow you to continue

14 this time. Shall we put the English translation on the ELMO.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Until then, please read this and then us, Mr. Vujicic, if this is

17 indeed the story and how it affected spirits and the general atmosphere

18 in Foca.

19 A. I can read it, although I remember it so well. This was

20 published in "Vox," this newspaper published and financed Sahimpasic

21 known as Saja. It says: "What is in store for Serbs in Islamic

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?" It reads:

23 "The day is coming closer when the announced proclamation of the

24 Islamic Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina will happen. This date for which

25 every Bosnian-Herzegovinian and Sandzak Muslim heart beats is, as we

Page 32106

1 already know, the 31st of December this year. According to some

2 indications, Bosnia-Herzegovina Serbs might oppose this historic

3 happening."

4 Q. Mr. Vujicic, I believe for all the other participants there is a

5 translation available on another screen, so you don't need to read it.

6 Just tell us how this affected the people in Foca.

7 A. This is not the only story of its kind, but this one had a

8 horrible impact on the peaceful relations between Muslims and Serbs

9 living in the municipality of Foca. I know very well that some sober,

10 reasonable Muslim intellectuals condemned this sort of writing.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this page and the

13 cover page of "Vox" magazine, please.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have not established yet, at

16 least I didn't see it, when this --

17 JUDGE KWON: Shall we see the first page. It says October 1991.

18 Is it correct? Is it published in October 1991, Mr. Vujicic?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This could have been 1990. As

20 far as I remember, it was 1990, towards the end of 1990, October or

21 September. It was published in one issue of this "New Vox" magazine.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 41 again, and

23 zoom in on the preamble, see what's written there.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Since this part has not been translated, could you read it for

Page 32107

1 us, or shall I?

2 A. Read it yourself. I don't see very well, and these glasses are

3 not really good.

4 Q. It reads:

5 "A year ago, our magazine published a funny story, a humourous

6 story, about the relation of the so-called Islamic Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Ever since that time, our publication has been

8 targeted by all sorts of manipulation, erroneous and malicious

9 interpretations, peaking in the writing that we are publishing in this

10 issue."

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot really follow, because

12 it's not --

13 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters are not following you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Following our hoax, we have seen a

15 development of the fascistoid position of Serbs in that so-called Islamic

16 republic. Who is behind this, we do not know. Is it the Serbs trying to

17 mobilise their population again, or could it be a Muslim provocation

18 against Serbs, or is it perhaps a Croat attempt to cause a quarrel

19 between Muslims and Serbs? It remains to be seen."

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Vujicic, has this been seen as a hoax among the Serbs, and

22 was it indeed a hoax?

23 A. This was not a hoax. This was a serious piece of writing, and

24 this whole story and all that I have been shown, all that I have seen,

25 impacted on one incident that had a lot of influence on relations between

Page 32108

1 Serb and Muslim workers in the Focatrans enterprise, a very large

2 enterprise. And that incident led to increasing tensions between Muslims

3 and Serbs in that area. Let me not speak about the Focatrans incident.

4 That's a separate story.

5 Q. Does that mean that in 1991 this text was reprinted, and it was

6 first published earlier?

7 A. I read it in 1990, but when it was first published, I don't know.

8 Q. We can go back to page 1 again. Could you read the writing in

9 red in Serbian.

10 A. "Handzar Division is ready."

11 Q. What is the Handzar Division?

12 A. We can find references to the Handzar Division in writings about

13 the Second World War, and in this conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina

14 there have been all sorts of manipulations referring to the

15 Handzar Division.

16 Q. Who was the Handzar Division made up of and on what side did it

17 fight on?

18 A. On the side of the occupier, and it was mainly made up of Croats

19 and Muslims.

20 JUDGE KWON: Not relevant. Do you object to the admission of

21 this page, 41, as well as page 1, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I suggest that it be marked for

23 identification, and I would reserve my right to object later on when I

24 can see it in full, because at the moment I'm a bit confused what is

25 really -- is it a satirical thing or whatsoever. So I suggest to do

Page 32109

1 that.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And what does "Vox" mean in B/C/S,

3 Mr. Vujicic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never given it any thought.

5 It says "New Vox." It has a crescent in the letter O, a Turkish symbol.

6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how I would interpret it. I

8 cannot interpret it in any other way.

9 JUDGE KWON: We will mark it for identification as Exhibit D2768,

10 the first page and page 41 of this magazine.

11 I understand that Defence will upload only those two pages,

12 excluding all the remaining pages.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vujicic.

14 Those were all my questions for the time being.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Vujicic, your evidence has been admitted

16 in most part in the writing, and you'll be further asked by the

17 Prosecutor in its cross-examination.

18 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Cross-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

21 Q. Good day, Mr. Vujicic.

22 A. Good day.

23 Q. In your statement, in paragraph 2, you refer to the SDA rally in

24 Foca having taken place in mid-1991, and in the next paragraph, 3, you

25 refer to the SDA founding rally September 1991. And Mr. Karadzic has

Page 32110

1 already asked you about whether you were mistaken about the year, and if

2 I understand your answer correctly, you say it was both in 1991. Is my

3 understanding correct?

4 A. [No interpretation]

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vujicic, I'm afraid we are not hearing any

6 interpretation. Could you kindly repeat your answer, Mr. Vujicic, from

7 the beginning. Your answer was not translated, unfortunately.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will. The first political party

9 in Foca was established and promoted in the local commune Donje Polje

10 between two bridges on the right bank of the Drina, in an area called

11 Pijesak. It was the promotion of the SDA party. It took place in the

12 end of June or perhaps early July.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

14 Q. And which year?

15 A. 1991.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we -- I would like to have a video

17 played, and it is 65 ter 40496. And it's only very, very brief.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was that said to me?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. No, it was not said to you. It was actually said to Mr. Reid

21 next to me to play a video. And before it is being played, it is, in

22 fact, a video -- it's a video from the SDA founding rally that you just

23 mentioned.

24 JUDGE KWON: 40496B.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: B, yes, B.

Page 32111

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: A bit further.

3 [Video-clip played]

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There should actually be some sound. And

5 the sound ...

6 We would have to hear the reporter speaking about what we are

7 seeing here, and unfortunately there's no sound, but according to the --

8 the transcript that I have, the reporter is saying:

9 "Inaugural meeting of the SDA in Foca was held on 25th August

10 1990."

11 It's unfortunate it's not heard, but perhaps if the Defence would

12 agree that the date would in fact have been the 25th of August, 1990,

13 then we could solve that situation.

14 JUDGE KWON: How about putting that question to the witness on

15 the basis that the audio says this is an inaugural meeting of the SDA in

16 Foca, which was held on 25th of August, 1990?

17 Do you agree with it, Mr. Vujicic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not agree to 1990. It was

19 in 1991, although it's possible that -- I don't know. It was a long time

20 August. In July or August, perhaps, but all I know is it was in 1991.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance? I believe

22 the witness is confusing a political rally that was a post-electoral

23 rally in 1991.

24 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we leave it there.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

Page 32112

1 Q. Mr. Vujicic, you also in paragraph 3 of your statement, you

2 mention that while the members of the SDA were invited to the SDS rally

3 and address the audience, the SDS representatives did not attend the SDA

4 rally. In fact, were not even invited. Do you remember that you said

5 that? In your statement, in paragraph 3.

6 A. I said that in my previous statement. I said I don't remember

7 that, and I don't think there was a single Serbian politician or leader

8 invited to the SDA rally in Han Pijesak. It was a very loud rally on the

9 right bank of the Drina involving 150 buses full of people. The police

10 congregated on Foca --

11 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you. We just need a few -- few things, not

12 your whole story. And you attended the SDA rally, is that --

13 A. Sorry. I hear this speech in a foreign language at the same time

14 as you are speaking, and I cannot follow the interpretation.

15 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I would like -- I would ask our usher to

16 take a look into the matter.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE KWON: That may have something to do with the volume of the

19 headphone, but let's try again.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's much better now.

21 JUDGE KWON: Do you hear me well now?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. I can.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

25 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Vujicic, did you attend the SDA rally yourself?

Page 32113

1 A. I did not go to Pijesak. I was on the other bank of the Drina

2 where the buses were. That's perhaps a hundred metres away. There was

3 also a public address system so I could hear everything, the presentation

4 of their platform and programme, all the speeches, everything.

5 Q. And as you heard all the speeches, did you not hear

6 Mr. Velibor Ostojic attend and give a speech?

7 A. No, I did not hear him speak at all. I don't know whether he

8 spoke, but I didn't hear it. I don't even know whether he was there.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we try now the same -- the same

10 video but now a different excerpt, and I hope that this time it works.

11 It is 65 ter 40496A.

12 [Video-clip played]

13 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Several cities of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The guests of the Assembly in Foca were

15 representatives of --"

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can you -- can we please start again so that

17 we can hear what the anchor person says.

18 [Video-clip played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Several cities in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Guests of the Foca Assembly were representatives of

21 the Serbian Democratic Party, Mr. Velibor Ostojic, president of the SDS

22 Executive Board for Bosnia-Herzegovina."

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we just move back where we hear that

24 person speaking, the previous speaker speaking here.

25 [Video-clip played]

Page 32114

1 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Several cities in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina. Guests --

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Let me stop here. Mr. Vujicic, that's

4 Mr. Ostojic; right?

5 A. You mean the one at the roster? It is possible.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. So, sir, Mr. Ostojic did attend the rally and

7 did speak about it; correct -- sit on it, sorry.

8 A. I never saw Ostojic in person. I only saw him on television. I

9 never had an occasion to meet him in person.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to have this small

12 clip admitted.

13 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could you identify later on the time-frame of

15 this video later on?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

17 JUDGE KWON: To the registrar.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted.

20 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P6078. Thank you.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please be told where the

22 rally took place? Where was it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to answer?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness has actually correctly

Page 32115

1 identified it to be at the arena --

2 JUDGE KWON: Han Pijesak?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's in Foca and it's at the conference of

6 the rivers Drina and Cehotina, if I remember correctly.

7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's continue.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

9 Q. Mr. Vujicic, the Trial Chamber has made a decision that we are

10 not talking about the Focatrans affair. However, in paragraph 4 of your

11 statement, you refer to an event that as you put broke out -- just before

12 the war in Foca broke out Serbian employees had a strike and that then

13 the Special Police from republic -- from the republic level Herzegovina

14 intervened and beat up citizens.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's my understanding that this

16 evidence is still tendered.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. In -- in this context, I would like to

19 have Exhibit 65 ter 24375 brought up on the screen, please.

20 Q. And as it is coming up, it is a press release by the Foca police

21 station regarding a police intervention on the 11th of September, 1990.

22 The date is actually -- can be seen on the next page. Can we please have

23 the next page in both languages. And can we -- yes. Thank you.

24 Are you again mistaken about the date, Mr. Vujicic? The event

25 was the intervention of the police against strikers. Was that not in

Page 32116

1 September 1990 and not just before the outbreak of the war?

2 A. Well, I personally think that the events at Focatrans started in

3 1989 and went on for some two years. I can see that this report dates

4 back to 1990. I don't remember the details of the date. I only remember

5 that in the morning when I went to work I came across police forces that

6 started to persecute the population. I don't know whom precisely, but I

7 suppose that they were after the workers who had walked out after they

8 were fired by the management of Foca transport. They continued to work

9 for a year. They set up their own company called Viner, and they

10 operated it for a year. However, the Serbs set up a commission --

11 Q. Mr. Vujicic, we don't want to speak about the details. We just

12 want to speak about the police operation that you mentioned in your

13 statement and to establish why it took place and when.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have again page 1 of -- in

15 both languages.

16 Q. As you can see here, there is a reference in paragraph 2 that

17 there was a ban of public rallies in Foca according to an order from the

18 republic SUP. And if we go down a bit to the second last paragraph, it

19 says here, and I read it to you as you said your glasses are not so good:

20 "Despite pejorative and insulting words that were said to the

21 police members, we tried to push the masses. However, when they became

22 aggressive and commenced with physical attacks and throwing stones at the

23 police, we used the water cannon, and when not even this yielded the

24 result, we used rubber batons and tear gas, all with the aim to reject

25 the attack and disperse the rally."

Page 32117

1 Mr. Vujicic, is that now how it really happened and how it

2 started? There was violence from both sides, so to speak?

3 A. I'll try and explain and make things clearer for you or, rather,

4 to make them absolutely clear. I'll try to be brief and up to the point.

5 First of all, the Executive Board of Bosnia and Herzegovina set up a

6 commission that came to Foca and suspended all the civilian authorities

7 and took matters in their hands. All those who had walked out, all those

8 who had appropriated funds and equipment and continued to use them for a

9 year in the newly established company Viner --

10 Q. Sir --

11 A. -- they had all these things seized from them by the commission

12 and --

13 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you. The only question we are talking

14 about is the -- is the police intervention you mentioned that took place

15 immediately before the war, and I put to you and which is from this

16 police report, that it was in September 1990, and it was something that

17 started with a ban of the rally and the police doing their job and then

18 violence occurred.

19 A. Very well. What I'm trying to say is that it was not the Foca

20 police. It was Special Police commanded by Commander Vikic, Special

21 Police which was set up at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They were

22 the ones who took the matters in their hands and implemented all those

23 measures. I was an eyewitness of all that. I was the president of the

24 biggest local commune in Foca, Gornje Polje at the time. I attended the

25 meetings of that commission, and that's how things transpired. At the

Page 32118

1 end they invited the Special Police from Sarajevo who did all those

2 things. I could not even pass through the streets to go to work because

3 of all those police officers. There were workers there with Beetles,

4 some of them brought their own lorries, and all those were seized from

5 them. They chased them for kilometres down the street. I don't know if

6 people were stoned, but as far as I could see, as far as I knew, there

7 was not that many stones thrown to provoke such reaction. Some were

8 beaten up, and some succumbed to the wound as a result of the beating.

9 Some -- some died. If you're not satisfied with my answer, please go on.

10 Q. Sir, will you please go a bit further down. It says here if you

11 look at the last paragraph:

12 "Data indicating that only three persons requested medical aid

13 during the day yesterday and two of whom directly who participated."

14 There is no word from people who died. This is just not right.

15 Correct?

16 A. It is correct that on that day nobody was killed. However,

17 people were beaten. Some women were beaten even --

18 Q. Sir --

19 A. -- who had never been on any strike. They were just there on the

20 street, and if they uttered a single word, they were beaten with batons.

21 I saw that with my own --

22 Q. Sir --

23 A. -- own two eyes. I can even tell you who the woman was that was

24 beaten black and blue.

25 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you. At that time in 1990, the Foca police

Page 32119

1 was not divided yet. It was all ethnic groups; right?

2 A. Yes, but that Foca police -- the secretariat of the interior was

3 a municipal secretariat. However, when that commission arrived and when

4 those men took over, it was no longer the municipal police. They took

5 the matters in their own hands.

6 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but

7 speaking for myself, I'm not quite sure still whether this document is

8 referring to the same event referred to in her -- in his statement. The

9 third sentence, i.e., the event in which Serbian --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I could read, I can see

11 there are a lot of lies in here. Somebody wrote this report the way it

12 suited him.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vujicic, I was asking a question to

14 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15 Third sentence says:

16 "Just before the war in Foca broke out, Serbian employees broke

17 off and formed their own enterprises for transport of goods and

18 passengers."

19 Is this document referring to the same event? That was my

20 question.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's the same event.

22 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether the witness confirmed it.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The witness seems to be definitely

24 mistaken about the year. That is something that we actually heard

25 already starting when Mr. Karadzic asked question. It's the event in

Page 32120

1 1990 that both this witness and the next one were talking about.

2 JUDGE KWON: If it is related to 1990 event, then that paragraph

3 could go in its entirety as greed upon by Mr. Milosevic at first. But

4 I -- when we read the same paragraph, it seems to be related to other

5 than 1990.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I had actually understood it

7 always to be the same event, and when you compare with the next witness

8 who is coming, it's indeed the same event, and I just tried to establish

9 that with the witness. And I understood that Mr. Karadzic understood it

10 also to be the event in 1990.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE KWON: Please continue then, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be heard on something? May I

14 say something about this?

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Vujicic.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, briefly.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very briefly, yes. First of all,

19 they were all dismissed. The workers, the drivers, primarily those who

20 had permanent contracts. They were all dismissed. Later on they set up

21 their own company because they had been fired and they no longer

22 benefitted from any workers' rights due to them by Focatrans.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Did that all take place at the same

24 time, I mean in the same year?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 20 years, I really can't say

Page 32121

1 whether it was in 1991 or in 1990, that is possible. I can't be sure

2 really. I only know that those things happened. I saw them happening.

3 I was an eyewitness. It was in the early morning hours. As I was on my

4 way to work, I observed the entire situation.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I take it you need

6 more time to conclude your cross-examination.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. To clarify these

8 particular points. It took a lot of time, and basically the main

9 points -- some main points are still coming.

10 JUDGE KWON: No, I was just wondering whether to take a break now

11 or not.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And I cannot manage to do this in --

13 the entire cross-examination in half an hour.

14 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It will take a bit longer, so sorry.

16 JUDGE KWON: So we will take a break now for 45 minutes and

17 resume at 20 past 1.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

20 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I

22 would like to tender this exhibit into evidence.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

Page 32122

1 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P6079. Thank you.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

3 Q. Mr. Vujicic, in paragraph 6 of your statement, you refer to the

4 fighting, and you state that the Serb forces liberated Foca from Muslim

5 paramilitaries in less than five days. That's correct; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And today and also in paragraph 26, 27, and 29 of your statement,

8 you also gave more details on the fighting and you stated that Foca was

9 not attacked with artillery. Do you remember that?

10 A. Well, not really. However, when the conflict broke out, there

11 was a device in Sukovac near Radio Foca tower. It was a kind of

12 Verber [phoen] or a Russian Kacusa which fired at the Serbian population.

13 They inflicted more or less damage. We found one that had fallen in

14 Cehotina, and one had actually fallen on my brother's house. It was a

15 man made device. On the Serbian side there was infantry weapons, an

16 occasional Zolja, an occasional Osa. I don't know whether there was a

17 recoilless gun or not. Later, at first there was nothing. At first

18 Serbs only had rifles in their hands. For those few days or so I was in

19 the basement of my house.

20 Q. Mr. Vujicic, there's evidence before this Court that the Serbs'

21 forces in Foca included the JNA units and that JNA units participated in

22 the fight in Foca with artillery. And let me cite adjudicated fact 741

23 from the Krnojelac trial judgement, paragraph 20, to you, and it says:

24 "Sometime between 8.30 and 10.00 on 8 April 1992, the main Serb

25 attack on the Foca town began with a combination of infantry fire and

Page 32123

1 shelling from artillery weapons in nearby Kalinovik and Miljevina, and

2 Serb forces included local soldiers as well as soldiers from Montenegro

3 and Yugoslavia, and in particular, a paramilitary formation known as the

4 White Eagles.

5 Mr. Vujicic, is that not how it happened on the 8th of April,

6 1992?

7 A. On the 8th of April, 1992, an armed conflict started. It

8 involved Muslims and Serbs on the right bank of the Drina River above

9 Foca in the immediate vicinity of villages inhabited by the Serbian

10 population exclusively. I can tell you that that's where the first

11 skirmishes and conflicts broke out, and that the Serb forces enjoyed some

12 advantages in those conflicts. And the conflict spilled out from the

13 slopes of the mountain to the city itself, and from one house to the

14 next, from one apartment block to another apartment block. The conflict

15 spread. And I know that the Muslim forces defended themselves from those

16 residential buildings, from the mosques, from the wells. I know that

17 there was a lot of weapons in the mosques.

18 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you here. I was actually asking you about

19 the artillery, the JNA artillery, that shelled Foca from Kalinovik and

20 Miljevina. That was actually the point I asked you, because you had

21 denied that in your statement.

22 A. Hello? I was an eyewitness. I don't know whose artillery it

23 was. In any case, shells fell from the direction of Miljevina, but not

24 on Foca but on Sukovac and the forests on the right bank of the Drina.

25 Not a single shell fell on Foca. I was there in my apartment -- or,

Page 32124

1 rather, in my residential building. Not a single shell fell on Foca.

2 Not a single shell hit a single facility in Foca, either a Muslim or a

3 Serbian facility.

4 Q. And the White Eagles, they were from Serbia and they

5 participated; right?

6 A. You're talking about trenches? Is that what you said?

7 Q. No. I was asking you in this -- in this quote that I -- this

8 adjudicated fact that I quoted to you, mention is made from the

9 paramilitary formation known as the White Eagles participating in the

10 attack on Foca, and I asked you whether this group was from Serbia.

11 A. No. I'm sure that the White Eagles were not in Foca at the time.

12 It was the Serb locals who rose to defend their own houses with their own

13 forces. There was no JNA. There was no other military force. It was

14 only the civilian population that rose to defend their houses, to defend

15 their families and villages. As for the White Eagles, nobody mentioned

16 them.

17 Later on there were some military -- paramilitary forces. I

18 don't know what their names were, what the unit's name was, but they were

19 not desirable and welcome in the Serbian Foca.

20 Q. Mr. Vujicic, in paragraph 21 of your statement, you say that the

21 Serbs started to arm only very late, somewhere in mid-1992. And I'm just

22 wondering, are you again mistaken about the year? Would the correct

23 reference, time reference, not be June 1991?

24 A. I only know that the Serbs started arming themselves later. I

25 will admit that. But they started arming themselves much later than the

Page 32125

1 Muslims. The Muslims started doing that. They became the Green Berets

2 and the Mujahedin, and when Focatrans started bringing in weapons, that's

3 where the first depot was. And it was only when the Serbs sensed that

4 there would be an armed conflict in Foca they started arming themselves,

5 and they did it the way they could. There were hunting rifles. There

6 were all sorts of things, and that's how the thing started. It was much

7 later, almost on the eve of the day when the conflict broke out. But I

8 would like to say something else. When it comes to Serbian equipment and

9 weapons, all that would have had a little effect in Foca over those five

10 or six days when Foca was cleansed from the Muslim warriors, but the

11 media helped a lot. There was a journalist in Foca. He was a

12 correspondent --

13 Q. Let me stop you here. Let me stop you here, because your written

14 evidence we have already, and we do not need to repeat this. Therefore,

15 I would be very thankful if you would just answer the questions that I

16 ask, because all the other facts are already in -- in evidence.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have now another video, and I

18 hope this time it works both with the language -- with the transcript as

19 well, and it's 65 ter 4 -- 40199B. And, Your Honour, as it is being

20 prepared for playing, we have the video and the transcript, and it's an

21 interview of Miroslav Stanic of which the Court has already accepted part

22 as Exhibit P03476, but I would like to play two small bits from this

23 video of Mr. Stanic. And can we please have the first bit played.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The Serbian Democratic Party at

Page 32126

1 first stopped its political work completely and moved to organise the

2 defence of the Serbian people, the self-defence of the Serbian people,

3 because it has seen the dark clouds rolling towards them. The SDS

4 promptly formed eight battalions which were led, and some of them still

5 are, by the then reserve Serbian first. It worked on the military

6 organisation and the material supplies for the battalions.

7 "I would like to mention something that I never told in public in

8 three, now four years, and that happened in June 1991, during the

9 inspection of that one battalion on the Zlataj mountain when I saw a

10 majestic scene. The battalion was lined up in companies, the

11 quartermaster's unit on the side, and above all of them the tricolour

12 Serbian flag with the cross and the four Ss planted in a hollow beech

13 tree. The Serbs with their national symbols in total illegality on the

14 ground since it was in June 1991 ..."

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

16 Q. Sir, Miroslav Stanic, you know that he was the military commander

17 in Foca at the beginning the war; correct?

18 A. Miroslav Stanic was president of the municipal organisation of

19 the Serbian Democratic Party. As far as I remember, he was also on the

20 Crisis Staff during the immediate conflict and after. As for this

21 statement he made, I told you that in April, towards the end of April I

22 was mobilised. I was conscripted to our units on the front line. I was

23 inside a bunker facing Gorazde all the way up to June 1994. I have never

24 seen this interview he gave before this day. He might have said this but

25 I cannot say anything about it.

Page 32127

1 Q. But he speaks about eight battalions being formed, and he speaks

2 about this one inspection, and he speaks of June 1991. That would then

3 be correct; right?

4 A. If I'm allowed to say this, in June 1991, these units of the

5 Serbian Army, companies, battalions, brigades did not exist. It was all

6 set up much later, in April 1992, once the JNA left Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Only then were certain units formed in the municipality of Foca. I know

8 that personally. I know that for a fact, and I stand by it.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we now have the next little bit played,

10 and it continues, the interview continues.

11 [Video-clip played]

12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] It was strong, and it is a good

13 thing that we prepared in time and that we overestimated is --

14 overestimated it. And we did not do a song and dance but prepared the

15 military organisation of the Serbian people a year in advance. I have to

16 mention the first wartime commanders, Lazar Kunarac, Zoran Vukovic,

17 Brane Cosovic, Vlado Todovic, Dragan Nikolic, Nade Radovic,

18 Zdravko Kovac, Ljubisa Dostic, Boro Ivanovic, Gojko Jankovic, Pero Elez,

19 Jovan Vukovic, Slavomir Zimanovic called Zuco, and Radmilo Pljevadzic."

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

21 Q. Sir, as you yourself became a soldier, when the army officially

22 was then formed, the VRS, that is, you know some of these commanders

23 listed here; right?

24 A. Sorry. All these commanders that he mentioned, that Mr. Stanic

25 mentioned, I know them all only from 1992 and later. I know that from

Page 32128

1 that time on they led certain units. Once the units and the Serbian

2 brigade were formed in Foca, some were battalion commanders, some were

3 commanders of reconnaissance units, of intervention units, that's what I

4 know, and I can say that's how it was. I never heard that they were

5 commanders before that time. Whether they were appointed or not, I did

6 not know.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. Brane Cosovic led which unit to your knowledge?

8 A. Some intervention unit, a unit of Brane Cosovic.

9 Q. And would that be a unit with the name Dragan Nikolic Unit?

10 A. No. I think Dragan Nikolic was not part of the unit led by

11 Cosovic.

12 Q. And -- thank you, sir. Gojko Jankovic led which unit?

13 A. Gojko Jankovic also led some reconnaissance unit. It was more of

14 a reconnaissance unit, a unit of scouts that went ahead to see what was

15 going on. When the conflict moved to villages in municipality Foca, when

16 Muslim units raided these villages, then Jankovic's unit was see -- was

17 sent to see how the population, both Muslim and Serb, could be rescued.

18 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Pero Elez --

19 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry.

21 Q. Pero Elez led the Miljevina Battalion; right?

22 A. Precisely.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, can this -- can these two

24 excerpts be admitted?

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

Page 32129

1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Well, we have the same

2 objection to the first -- well, to both of them that we've had before

3 that you overruled. And I think with respect to the first of these

4 clips, there was information that contradicted the witness, and

5 consistent with your ruling, it might be admitted. But on the second

6 clip, I don't think that the witness was contradicted by that and he

7 certainly didn't confirm either of the two clips. So our position is

8 that they both should not be admitted, but if you were to follow your

9 earlier ruling, then only the first clip should be admitted.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the second clip is also

11 contradicting the witness because it's the same issue, that is -- that

12 the Serbs -- the Serbs prepared for the war already one year in advance

13 of its start. It's basically the same issue with -- like the first bit.

14 And also the witness confirmed at least the commanders being the right

15 one mentioned here, although he refers to the time period when he was a

16 soldier and there existed the VRS already.

17 JUDGE KWON: However, given that the relevant part of the

18 transcript were read to the witness and reflected in the transcript,

19 would it be necessary to admit this clip separately?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would rather think it is an

21 important topic here: Who started when -- who prepared and was prepared,

22 and who did it. I think so.

23 JUDGE KWON: Even if we are to admit this part, it would be

24 admitted only for the credibility issue, wouldn't it? I will consult my

25 colleagues.

Page 32130

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will also defer ruling this time as well

3 and give it in due course. Please continue, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'm

5 aware that I have used up the time you have allocated, but I wish to

6 address a few topics like Partizan Sports Hall and the departure of the

7 Muslims from Foca if you allow me to do this. We had a little bit of

8 problems in the first half hour.

9 JUDGE KWON: How much longer would you need, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would think as it is only one more

11 exhibit, basically, I need another 15 minutes perhaps.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

14 Q. Mr. Vujicic, today and also in paragraph 8 of your statement,

15 you -- you mentioned that Muslims were brought from distant villages

16 where they could not be controlled and protected to certain facilities in

17 Foca where they could be defended, as you call it, and one of these

18 places was Partizan Sports Hall; right?

19 A. Correct. Correct.

20 Q. You --

21 A. Because Foca -- can I continue? Because Foca was very jagged

22 territory. It was very difficult to cover all houses, be they Muslim or

23 Serb.

24 Q. Sir. Sir, let me stop you. That's already in evidence. We

25 don't need to repeat this. And you --

Page 32131

1 A. Yes, let's go on.

2 Q. You yourself stood guard there for a few days, and that would be

3 May 1992; right?

4 A. No, not in May but in April. Between 20th and 24th or 25th of

5 April, 1992. Since I was not mobilised then, I was 55 and under the law

6 they could not mobilise people over 55 --

7 Q. Yes, thank you.

8 A. -- it was some individuals who --

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vujicic, let me cite to you a few facts that this

10 Tribunal established in previous cases.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Your Honour, I refer here to adjudicated

12 fact 787 from the Krnojelac case and also Kunarac case.

13 "Muslim women were transferred to Buk Bijela, Foca High School,

14 and Partizan Sports Hall. Serb soldiers repeatedly raped Muslim women

15 and girls either at these locations or elsewhere."

16 Q. Sir, as you said this morning that you lived near Partizan, you

17 must have been aware of that, what was going on there, were you not?

18 A. I was there for only three or four nights, only during the night.

19 I don't know what's written there, but I was only there during the night

20 with another guard at the Partizan facility. As for the other premises

21 you mentioned, I have no clue about that. I knew that in the facility I

22 was supposed to guard, some women from the abandoned villages around Foca

23 were placed for their protection. My orders were that nobody must open

24 the doors of that house during the night, and I was even told that I

25 could use force and even shoot if somebody tries.

Page 32132

1 Q. Sir. Sir.

2 A. And that's how it was.

3 Q. Let me stop you. But you're aware that Mr. Kunarac, Mr. Radomir

4 Kovac, and Zoran Vukovic were convicted for assaulting, sexually

5 assaulting women detained in Partizan. Are you not aware of this fact?

6 A. No. In the four days that I was there, nobody got out. I know

7 that women got out only during the day, during daylight nobody -- and

8 they returned at night. After those four days I was mobilised. I don't

9 know what happened later.

10 Q. Okay. Mr. Vujicic, in paragraph 8 of your statement and also in

11 paragraphs 31 and 32, you state that Muslim villagers who wanted to stay

12 in their villages were allowed to do so.

13 Mr. Vujicic, before this Court are facts that Muslim villages

14 were attacked and destroyed, and I read to you adjudicated fact 752 from

15 Kunarac.

16 "Once town and villages were securely in the hands, the Serb

17 forces, the military, the police, the paramilitaries, and sometimes even

18 Serb villagers, applied the same pattern. Muslim houses and departments

19 were systematically ransacked or burnt down. Muslim villagers were

20 rounded up or captured and sometimes beaten and killed in the process."

21 JUDGE KWON: "Beaten or killed."

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: "Beaten or killed." Yes, sorry. I

23 misspoke.

24 Q. Mr. Vujicic, would you agree that under such conditions Muslims

25 would fear for their lives and try to get out of Foca?

Page 32133

1 A. As for violence, any violence committed by units that launched a

2 counter-offensive against the Muslim units that burnt down Serb villages,

3 because Muslim and Serb villages were close to each other, Serb villages

4 were burnt down and people were killed. I can enumerate several such

5 villages in several areas. However, Serb forces came in and cleansed

6 those areas of those criminals, and the Muslim women and children left or

7 stayed. Those who stayed were mainly women and children and elderly

8 people, and they were admitted into Foca for their own protection.

9 After April, when I was mobilised, we were lined up and the

10 officer read to us instructions how a Serb soldier is supposed to act in

11 cleansing areas from Mujahedins and those criminals. I don't know if

12 anybody was ever hurt except if they were defending themselves or

13 something.

14 Q. I would like to have --

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just correct something in

16 line 20? The witness said that the Serb villages were first to be burnt

17 down, including the killing of civilians, and only then did Serbs launch

18 a counter-offensive.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can enumerate those Serb villages

20 in -- in those areas.

21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, but that's not necessary. In line 8 on

22 page 79, "down" should read "towns."

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

24 Q. Can we please have exhibit 65 ter 24393 on the screen.

25 And, Mr. Vujicic, as it is coming up, it is a report of commander

Page 32134

1 Marko Kovac reporting to the Hercegovina Corps command about the

2 situation in Foca on the 10th of October, 1992, and he refers here to a

3 visit of the ICRC from Geneva, and he mentions here that they spoke to

4 certain people, including women and children.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can I please have the English, the second

6 page. The B/C/S is fine.

7 Q. Sir, if you look at the last sentence here of the report, Kovac

8 states:

9 "If there is interest, we have 21 Muslim children and a number of

10 women for exchange or we would send them to Gorazde."

11 Mr. Vujicic, civilians were used in exchanges, were they not?

12 A. Yes. There were such cases, I know, for a while. This thing

13 that Kovac sent I am seeing for the first time. I was on the front line.

14 I don't know what happened back there. All I know is there have been

15 exchanges of civilians. There was a period when there were exchanges

16 between Foca and Gorazde, all for all. There were also individual

17 exchanges, and some of these people stayed to this day as far as Muslims

18 in Foca are concerned. And there were also exchanges between Foca and

19 Sarajevo.

20 Q. Sir, departure and exchanges, that's not a matter of

21 voluntariness; right? It's not a matter of choice; correct?

22 A. It was their choice and their own freewill. I know that our

23 authorities told them perhaps it's not necessary. At least as far as the

24 population in Foca was concerned. They told them, "Nobody will touch

25 you. You will be safe." And they said, "We have to join our family

Page 32135

1 members who left before the war." I was in the street on one occasion

2 when close friends of mine, Muslims, were talking to me in great detail

3 about these things. They organised their own exchanges, and they went by

4 their own cars and their own buses. Nobody pushed them to do this.

5 Nobody even talked them into it. I know. I know for a fact that's how

6 it was.

7 Q. Let me move to the very last topic I would like to address with

8 you, Mr. Vujicic. In paragraph 22, you refer to Muslim forces fighting

9 from several months, and that this was the reason why the Serb forces

10 attacked the mosques.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can I please have P04070 be brought up on

12 the screen. And can we first have page 130.

13 Your Honour, what is coming up is part of the formatted records

14 of expert Riedlmayer who addressed the destruction of religious sites.

15 Q. Sir, you recognise this mosque, do you?

16 A. I recognise this. This is the Aladza mosque. It seems to me

17 it's the Aladza mosque in Foca.

18 Q. That's correct, sir. Can we now have page 129. Do you recognise

19 this place?

20 A. I can see that some building used to be there, but I can't

21 identify it.

22 Q. That -- the expert that we -- Riedlmayer actually made this

23 photo, and it is the place where the Alaska -- Aladza mosque was actually

24 situated, and that's what it looked like after the war.

25 Sir, the Aladza mosque was destroyed on the 2nd of August, 1992,

Page 32136

1 was it not?

2 A. On what date it was destroyed I don't know, but I know that it

3 was blown up. Now, who set the explosives in the mosque and who blew it

4 up, I don't know. All I know, that Muslims stored explosives and weapons

5 in all their mosques because they didn't want it stored in their own

6 family houses. They stored this material in mosques, and from the

7 mosques they defended themselves, and they even trained Green Berets

8 inside mosques. I know about the Pilar mosque in Donje Polje which

9 served exclusively for the training of Muslim extremists.

10 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you. We have all these details. The point

11 is when this mosque, the Aladza mosque, was razed to the ground, there

12 was no fighting from that mosque at that time; right?

13 A. No, probably not. Foca at that time was rather quiet. But I

14 want to tell you as far as this mosque and others are concerned, a lot of

15 weaponry, ammunition, and weapons were stored there.

16 Q. Sir, let me stop you. Let me stop you here. We have heard that,

17 and this is in evidence. There is no need to repeat this all the time.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I've -- Your Honour, I forgot

20 that I would like to tender 65 ter 24393.

21 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that is the end of my

24 questions.

25 JUDGE KWON: Shall we give the number.

Page 32137

1 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P6080. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Several questions. I hope I won't

4 take long.

5 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vujicic, let's begin with the last topic.

7 Has it been established who destroyed the Aladza mosque and whether it

8 could have been hit by a projectile and then destroyed by the explosives

9 stored inside it?

10 A. Experts of various nationalities gave it a lot of thought and

11 analysis. It was crazy to put explosives, so many explosives, in that

12 mosque that could have destroyed so many villages around, and it did

13 destroy Muslim and Serb houses in Codor, Mahala, Cerezluk, and the

14 surrounding villages when it exploded. It was a huge amount of

15 explosive, and the detonation was so strong that the area covered was

16 several hundred metres around. Extremists, the conclusion was, put

17 explosives in the mosque that they needed for the combat against Serbs.

18 Now, who blew it up, whether it was a lunatic or an extremist, I don't

19 know.

20 In Cehotina, at the football stadium, you couldn't even see the

21 grass from the debris that came from the mosque.

22 Q. Thank you. When we are talking about departures, did people

23 leave before the war? Which ethnicity left Foca before the war?

24 A. Everybody, Serbs, Muslims, everybody. For example, in my

25 building where there were 40 apartments, everybody left. Only my

Page 32138

1 neighbour and myself remained in the building. In my building, there are

2 five Muslims and five Serbs. They all left save for me. I did not have

3 anywhere to go. When things calmed down a little in Foca, Serbs

4 returned, even Muslims did. I know a family from

5 Koplje [as interpreted]. A woman was married to a guy in Uskoplje and

6 her husband and herself and her sister remained in Foca. They tried to

7 take her out with them to Foca when they crossed Stjepan Polje, and they

8 proceeded across the rivers of the Drina and Sutjeska. Muslim forces

9 came across the river. They ambushed them and they killed them. In that

10 family there were two more men of Serb ethnicities who were also on the

11 way to Foca. They were also killed. There were many Muslim families

12 that left Foca individually after having lived in the area for a long

13 time.

14 Q. Thank you. What was the attitude of Muslim extremists towards

15 those Muslims who lived normally with Serbs?

16 A. Well, there were no favours. There were no love lost between

17 them. I don't know whether anybody was killed or not, but it was held

18 against them. But to be honest, in Foca there were Serbs and Muslims who

19 believed that all those tensions had to be diminished and that it had to

20 be made sure that nothing arrived at Foca.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Halid Cengic? What can you

22 tell us about his activities?

23 A. I know Halid Cengic well. He was from a noble family --

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That was not raised in the

25 cross-examination.

Page 32139

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it was. While there were

2 preparations for the war. This is my foundation for the questions that

3 I'm going to put later on.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I proceed?

5 JUDGE KWON: Please tell us first how -- or from where this

6 question arose.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From a claim by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff

8 that the Serbs were the first who started preparing themselves for the

9 war.

10 JUDGE KWON: I don't think she led evidence to at that effect.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, I never claimed that.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, it was said that the war

13 started in 1991. I want to establish when Halid Cengic started preparing

14 Muslims for the war, and every Serb in Foca knows that only too well.

15 JUDGE KWON: Please move on to your next topic.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. With respect to this

17 issue, the Prosecution attempted to show that the Serbs were preparing

18 for war well before the war broke out in Foca, and it doesn't -- it seems

19 like Dr. Karadzic should have the opportunity to show what -- what

20 circumstances were taking place during that time, and particularly what

21 the other side was doing. It's not tu quoque evidence. It's related to

22 the topic that -- the point that Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was trying to make,

23 which was the Serbs were preparing. And if -- we can't have a trial here

24 where you can only show that one side is preparing for war and then don't

25 hear evidence that the other side, what they were doing. So I think that

Page 32140

1 it's within her cross-examination, and it's very relevant.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Would you like to add anything?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. This witness has -- has in his written

5 evidence the claim that the Muslims prepared for war. They had the Green

6 Berets and they were armed and they had their weapons in the mosque, they

7 had their explosives in the mosque. And also in the evidence we have

8 from the witness in writing and also here, we -- this morning that the

9 Serbs did not do that. On the contrary, they only started to arm

10 themselves when the conflict started, and in his written evidence he even

11 speaks of June 1992. And all I did in the cross-examination, show him

12 that this is not correct, at least not to -- according to what Mr. Stanic

13 said and according to the evidence that is in front of this Court. I did

14 not say anything more than that.

15 MR. ROBINSON: But, Mr. President, that opens the door to

16 Dr. Karadzic to be able to ask what the Muslims were doing and whether

17 what the Serbs were doing was in response to that or creating some

18 situation in Foca unilaterally. So I think that topic is fair game for

19 redirect.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the Chamber agrees with

22 Mr. Robinson's observation, the last one. The Chamber will allow the

23 accused to put that question.

24 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 32141

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Vujicic, can you tell us, when did the Muslims started

3 organising themselves and who was it who started organising them?

4 A. I've already said that the Muslims started arming themselves from

5 1989 through Focatrans and in many other ways. The Serbs started doing

6 that much later. I don't know whether it was before 1991. In any case,

7 both ethnicities armed themselves, but Serbs started doing that much

8 later than the Muslims.

9 Q. As far as Focatrans is concerned, I'm not going to tell you about

10 the Serb rights -- being deprived of their rights, but when it comes to

11 arming, why did you mention Focatrans? How did arming take place through

12 Focatrans?

13 A. Focatrans was an operation in miniature, as an experiment as to

14 how the Serbs were going to react at the time when Bosnia and Herzegovina

15 was proclaimed as an independent state of Muslims, and in terms of those

16 declarations and proclamations and articles in newspapers, whatever

17 happened in Focatrans was later on reconfirmed by the events.

18 First of all, Serbs were fired and Muslims were hired, and then

19 they started removing Serb drivers from lorries and buses, and they

20 appointed Muslims in their place and so on and so forth.

21 I would like to tell you something, Mr. Karadzic. I would like

22 to tell you this: In Foca there was --

23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vujicic, I think you answered the question.

24 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32142

1 Q. Mr. Vujicic, what was the attitude of the civilian authorities

2 towards departures; i.e., did you know that the civilian authorities

3 placed a ban on the departure of Serbs and Muslims at first and that ban

4 was lifted later on?

5 A. I don't know whether there was a ban, but I know that it was

6 always said there was no need for anybody to leave Foca. I know that

7 personally. I heard announcements. And every individual who came to

8 various municipal departments of the Serbian authorities, that's what

9 they were told. Some people stayed -- stayed behind. They stayed in

10 Foca throughout the war. They didn't come in harm's way. They are still

11 there. They can testify to that effect.

12 Q. The Trial Chamber saw a document banning departure. I cannot

13 quote it. When I find it, I will. It has been admitted into evidence.

14 But let me ask you this, you are an educated man. You occupied different

15 positions in different companies: Is it correct -- or, rather, in the

16 Law on All People's Defence, is it prescribed that the ruling party

17 should organise All People's Defence?

18 A. No.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are leading questions now.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question was about organising

22 battalions.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I was going to ask who was it who had the right to have a

25 Territorial Defence unit in the former system?

Page 32143

1 A. Before the war, the Territorial Defence was organised by Foca

2 municipality. It had its own Territorial Defence. It had its equipment

3 for manoeuvres and so on and so forth. When the war broke out,

4 everything fell apart. The territorial depot had some weapons, but that

5 was seized by somebody, but all that happened later. So whatever used to

6 belong to Yugoslavia, everything fell apart.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the issue of Territorial

9 Defence was not discussed with the witness and the structures in the

10 municipality of -- to this effect.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I agree, but you rose after the witness had

12 already answered the question. Shall we conclude --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, there were eight

14 battalions mentioned here. I'm asking the witness whether the companies

15 or anybody else had the right to form Territorial Defence units apart

16 from the municipality.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. When the war broke out, people

18 rose spontaneously in order to defend their houses, their villages, and

19 their families, and the battalions of the so-called Army of Republika

20 Srpska, when the JNA withdrew, brigades started being set up on both

21 sides. For example, there was the Muslim brigade known as the

22 Sutjeska Brigade which was present in the territory of Foca municipality

23 until August. They stormed the Serbian villages and set them on fire.

24 And then the Serbian people organised themselves and chased those Muslims

25 to Trnovo. For a long time that brigade was active in Trnovo. The

Page 32144

1 so-called Sutjeska Brigade of Foca as it was known. And the Serbs -- I

2 apologise. The Serbs --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the end of

4 the answer.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, you were read --

7 JUDGE KWON: You spoke a little too fast. The interpreters

8 couldn't hear you, in particular the last part. After you said, "I

9 apologise," what did you say, Mr. Vujicic?

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

11 Q. You mentioned the Serbs and the Sutjeska in one sentence. Do you

12 hear me, Mr. Vujicic?

13 A. What did you say?

14 Q. Your answer was not recorded completely. You said, "I apologise,

15 but the Serbs occupied the Sutjeska. You did not hear that. I heard

16 it -- what did you say about the Sutjeska and the Serbs?

17 A. When the Muslim unit known as the Sutjeska brigade, which was

18 active in the territory of Tjentiste until September 1992, it stormed

19 Serbian villages and torched them and some individual houses between the

20 Muslim villages, all of those were burned. Fortunately enough, there

21 were no civilians because they had left the area beforehand. And then

22 the Serbian forces set out and chased those Muslim warriors, and they

23 moved to the territory of Trnovo. I don't know whether I have told you

24 enough. I can go on, but this is all I know. In this month of

25 September 1992, when the JNA left that area of the Sutjeska, there was

Page 32145

1 the 4th Battalion of the Foca Brigade.

2 Q. Thank you. Two adjudicated facts were read out to you earlier

3 today, inter alia, that fire was opened from Kalinovik on Foca. How far

4 is Kalinovik from Foca? What is the terrain between Foca and Kalinovik?

5 Could one open fire from Kalinovik on Foca?

6 A. No, not in Kalinovik. I don't know whether there was the kind of

7 activity that could open fire from Kalinovik on Foca. Between the two

8 there is a mountain over 1.100 metres old and then there is Miljevina and

9 another hilltop, and only then could a shell have reached Foca. I don't

10 know if there is that kind of artillery, perhaps Verder or something else

11 that could hit Foca from Kalinovik. There were military barracks of the

12 former JNA there. The Serbian Army of the Republika Srpska did not have

13 that kind of weaponry. They didn't open fire. Even if the JNA had

14 opened fire from Kalinovik, it -- Foca was out of its range. Do you know

15 how far that is? It is over 40 kilometres from Kalinovik to Foca.

16 Q. Thank you. So that adjudicated fact is not correct, is it?

17 A. No, it's not. I energetically refute that. I deny it, I'm sure,

18 and I apply my public statement to that with my head raised high. Let

19 the whole world watch me when I say that.

20 Q. Another adjudicated fact was read out to you according to which

21 when Serbs took Muslim villages and towns they would torch them and they

22 would kill people. What is your opinion of that adjudicated fact when it

23 comes to Foca and the villages and settlements around Foca?

24 A. I must say that when I was mobilised on Easter, on the 26th of

25 April, 1992, we were lined up, and we were read an order, a written

Page 32146

1 order, as to how a Serbian soldier had to behave, and the gist of that

2 was to chase warriors who had persecuted people in the Serbian villages.

3 There was nothing to the effect that houses had to be torched, that

4 civilians had to be killed. It was just the contrary, that the civilians

5 had to be protected and that they should be received in reception centres

6 in Foca if no other solution was at hand. Some sort of the Geneva

7 Conventions were read out regarding wartime behaviour, but I'd known them

8 from before.

9 Q. I don't have the time to read Mr. Stanic's answer where he says

10 that Muslim formations were strong and the Serbs did not underestimate

11 them. I don't have the time, so I'll give up on that.

12 Mr. Vujicic, thank you very much for your testimony.

13 A. Not at all.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Vujicic. That concludes your

15 evidence. On behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The

16 Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, who is the next witness.

20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, actually the next witness that we

21 have scheduled is Mr. Pljevaljcic, and actually given the limited amount

22 of time available, if the Chamber doesn't mind, I would actually prefer

23 to start tomorrow morning with KW570, who has some time constraints. I

24 want to make sure he finishes tomorrow, and then have Mr. Pljevaljcic

25 testify after him. So if we could adjourn a little early today and have