Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32383

 1                           Tuesday, 22 January 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Unfortunately we'll

 6     continue to sit pursuant to 15 bis, with Judge Lattanzi being away due to

 7     her flu.

 8             There are a couple of matters I would like to deal with before we

 9     continue to hear the evidence.  The Chamber first refers to the objection

10     raised by Mr. Robinson during the testimony of KW570 on the

11     18th of January, 2013, regarding the use of leading questions in

12     cross-examination to elicit relevant evidence not raised in direct

13     examination and not going to the credibility of the witness pursuant to

14     Rule 90(H).

15             The Chamber notes that, as submitted by Mr. Robinson, the

16     Prlic Trial Chamber in its decision on Prosecution motion concerning use

17     of leading questions of the 4th of July, 2008, did impose guide-lines in

18     that case which prevented the use of leading questions in relation to

19     cross-examination conducted pursuant to Rule 90(H) on matters not raised

20     in direct examination.  This approach is not consistent with that taken

21     by this Chamber in exercising its control over the conduct of this case

22     and the admission of evidence pursuant to Rule 90(H).  Indeed, during the

23     Prosecution case, the Chamber adopted an interpretation of Rule 90(H)

24     which allowed the accused to adduce evidence relevant to his case during

25     his cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses and did not preclude him

Page 32384

 1     from using leading questions during such cross-examination.  The Chamber

 2     is of the view that this interpretation is consistent with the plain

 3     wording of Rule 90(H), which speaks of cross-examination throughout.

 4             In addition, to apply a different standard now would be contrary

 5     to the interests of justice.  Having said that, this Chamber noted in the

 6     pre-Defence conference on the 15th of October, 2012, that "while the

 7     Prosecution may make use of Rule 90(H) during the Defence case, it must

 8     limit itself to a reasonable exercise of that rule."

 9             The Chamber will continue to exercise control over the use of

10     Rule 90(H) and the manner in which cross-examination is conducted,

11     including the use of leading questions to ensure that the rights of the

12     accused are protected and the interests of justice are not compromised.

13             For the next matter, the Chamber will go into private session.

14                           [Private session]

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Page 32385











11  Pages 32385-32386 redacted.  Private session.















Page 32387

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Unless there's any other matter.

20             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, just to advise you of the

22     latest with respect to our schedule and order of witnesses.  The

23     Prosecution indicated to us this morning that they would not be prepared

24     to commence the cross-examination of Colonel Indjic after his direct

25     examination.  So after we complete the testimony of the current witness,

Page 32388

 1     we'll have the direct examination of Colonel Indjic, followed by the

 2     direct examination of Dragomir Milosevic.  However, if we were not to

 3     have completed the direct examination of General Milosevic by the end of

 4     the day on Wednesday, we would ask the Prosecution -- we would ask that

 5     his testimony be interrupted so that Colonel Indjic can complete his

 6     cross-examination by the end of this week, which would be Thursday.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I've been in communication with

10     Ms. Edgerton, who will be leading or will be cross-examining the witness.

11     This particular proposal wasn't broached.  I think it's probably

12     consistent with the expectations that we had.  But before affirming that

13     understanding, I'd like to double-check; but I think that's going to

14     work.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, when do you expect the evidence of

16     Milosevic to start?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  At approximately 12.00.  I estimated around 12.00

18     today.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you.

20             We'll bring in the witness.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Mijanovic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson, please continue.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 32389

 1                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO MIJANOVIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mijanovic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Yesterday when we concluded I was asking you some questions about

 7     the claim at paragraph 6 of your statement, that the authorities of the

 8     Serbian municipality of Ilidza did not expel any non-Serbs and that they

 9     moved out on their own and in an unorganised manner.  And I'd like to

10     continue with some more questions to you about that claim.

11     Gornji Kotorac is a settlement in Ilidza where there were Muslims living

12     before the war; right?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   And is it your position that the Muslims of Gornji Kotorac moved

15     out of their own accord and in an unorganised manner?

16        A.   I feel like a poor student here.  You're asking me all these

17     difficult questions and you look like the headmaster of my old school.

18     Let me explain.  The Serb Ilidza, when I came there it was divided

19     physically into two sections that were not linked.  Gornji Kotorac

20     remained in that other part that was out of reach for me during the war

21     and I don't think I went even once for the duration; therefore, I can't

22     really say.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Gustafson, be comforted.  You probably

24     looked more like head mistress.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 32390

 1        Q.   So even though you've claimed in your statement that the Muslims

 2     in Ilidza moved out in an unorganised manner of their own accord, you're

 3     saying now that you can't really speak to what happened to some of the

 4     Muslims in Ilidza in parts of the municipality that you didn't go to; is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Could we go to P1086, please.  I'd just like to show you a

 8     few documents about the Muslims of Gornji Kotorac, starting with this

 9     document which is an intercept between Mr. Prstojevic and a certain

10     Milenko and then Mr. Prstojevic and a certain Novakovic.  On page 1 there

11     are introductions, and if we go to page 2 Prstojevic asks a few lines

12     down:

13             "Why did Mika phone me?"

14             And Milenko says:

15             "Phoned you to check with you, these people in Kotorac."

16             Milenko says:

17             "What should we do with them?

18             And Prstojevic says:

19             "Did you arrest them?  What did you do?"

20             And then a few lines down Mr. Prstojevic says:

21             "And where are those people?  Have they been arrested?"

22             And then Milenko says:

23             "Down there on the road all of them men are separated from

24     women."

25             And Prstojevic says:

Page 32391

 1             "Ha."

 2             And then Milenko says:

 3             "Just a second."

 4             And he says then:

 5             "I've just received the word, men are in the Kula prison and

 6     women went in the direction of Butmir."

 7             And Prstojevic says:

 8             "Put Tepavcevic on."

 9             And Milenko says:

10             "Here's Novakovic."

11             And in the background he says:

12             "It's Prstojevic, stop fooling around."

13             And then Novakovic and Prstojevic have introductions.  If we

14     could go to the next page in the B/C/S.

15             Prstojevic asks:

16             "Have you been cleaning Kotorac today" -- sorry, Mr. Mijanovic,

17     is something funny?  I'm asking you, Mr. Mijanovic, you're laughing.  Is

18     something funnily?

19        A.   Well, the expressions here I find to be a bit rustic in the text

20     itself.

21        Q.   So is the expression "have you been cleaning Kotorac today," is

22     that one of the expressions you find rustic?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let's move on.

25             And Novakovic responds:

Page 32392

 1             "They have.  I don't know the exact details because I was engaged

 2     otherwise."

 3             And a few lines down Prstojevic says:

 4             "That's okay, but tell me, please, I beg of you, why did you take

 5     the women to Butmir?"

 6             And Novakovic said:

 7             "They said women were not in Butmir -- but, well, in Butmir, yes,

 8     not to KP Dom but to Butmir.  That's where they're going."

 9             Prstojevic says:

10             "They cannot go to Butmir.  We'll mop up Butmir in time as well."

11             On the next page he says:

12             "Butmir will be mopped up.  Sokolovic will be mopped up.

13     Hrasnica will be mopped up."

14             So Novakovic says:

15             "Well, I don't know where to take them."

16             And Prstojevic says:

17             "There is Bascarsija, please take all of them to Bascarsija on

18     foot."

19             And Novakovic says:

20             "Aha, aha."

21             Prstojevic says:

22             "Women."

23             And:

24             "Men to prison."

25             Novakovic says:

Page 32393

 1             "Okay, I'll check with them now and then I'll let you know."

 2             And Prstojevic says:

 3             "Yes, tell them those who convert to Orthodox religion on the

 4     spot they can stay, women and children."

 5             And Novakovic says:

 6             "Okay."

 7             And Prstojevic says:

 8             "Do it, please, but don't make mistakes ...  you've done an

 9     excellent job but it means that Butmir will be mopped up in time.  Tell

10     that to the people there."

11             If we could now go to P1126, and this is a letter from the police

12     station at Kula to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the

13     Ministry of Justice, to the attention of the under-secretary and the

14     minister respectively.  And the subject is problems regarding persons

15     detained at KP Dom Kula Butmir.  And it says that between the 12th of May

16     and the 20th of May there were 156 persons detained at KP Dom Butmir and

17     in the next paragraph it says where they're from, 38 persons were brought

18     in from the TO Ilidza, Kasindolska Street and they were in possession of

19     automatic weapons.  And then it says 47 persons from Gornji Kotorac were

20     moved in an operation by former JNA and TO Kasindol forces but returned

21     to the area of Gornji Kotorac on 12 May 1992 and were therefore taken to

22     KP Dom Butmir.  And then it refers to other people taken in from

23     Dobrinja, Nedzarici, Vraca, Lukavica, Vojkovici, Ilidza, et cetera.

24             And in the last paragraph on the next page in the English it

25     refers to inadequate conditions of accommodation, food, hygiene, and says

Page 32394

 1     it is -- emphasises the urgency in resolving the future status of these

 2     detainees.

 3             And if we could go to D1243, page 10 in the English and page 19

 4     in the B/C/S.  This is a page from the Kula Butmir prison duty transfer

 5     log.  It's about to appear on your screen.  And you see the heading

 6     there.  It says the list of persons brought from Gornji Kotorac on

 7     12 May 1992, and there is a list of names starting with Rahmo Sehic and

 8     then a number of people with the surname Sarajkic.  And then if we could

 9     go to the next page in the B/C/S.  If you could just scan your eyes

10     through that list and confirm that these are all Muslim male names.  And

11     if we go to the next page in the English as well, and there are a few

12     more names on the next page in both languages if we could go to the top

13     of the next page.  There are in total 47 names listed here, the same

14     number as identified in the letter we just saw, and those are all names

15     of Muslim men, aren't they, Mr. Mijanovic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And if we could look at one last document on this topic which is

18     P1151.  And this document that you're about to see is another letter from

19     the Kula police station, again to the minister of justice and the

20     under-secretary for the Ministry of the Interior and it refers to our

21     document 592 dated 20 May 1992, which is a document we looked at a few

22     moments ago from the Kula police station.  And it says that in our

23     document we informed you of certain issues relating to accommodation,

24     meals, hygiene, et cetera.  And in the second paragraph it says:

25             "After co-ordinating with the minister of justice and the SJB

Page 32395

 1     undersecretary on 20 May 1992, 114 persons were taken to the Vrbanja

 2     bridge location and sent into the city via M. Sokolovic Street.  This

 3     group consists of persons whose place of residence was in Gornji Kotorac

 4     and Dobrinja.

 5             "As they were detained since 12 May 1992, and since the Ilidza

 6     exchange bureau was informed on two occasions about the possible exchange

 7     but did not respond in time, and due to the aforementioned objective

 8     problems, it was estimated that this group of detainees should be sent to

 9     the aforementioned location."

10             And then it goes on to discuss the problem of the 38 persons from

11     Kasindolska Street who were in possession of weapons and who it was

12     concluded were not -- should not be exchanged.  Now, we've seen an

13     intercept from Mr. Prstojevic that was dated the 14th of May, although

14     Mr. Prstojevic's evidence indicated that it should have been, in fact,

15     the 12th of May.  And I refer to transcript page 13859.  We have two

16     letters from the Kula police station referring to the detention of the

17     Muslim men from Gornji Kotorac after Prstojevic had instructed that they

18     be indeed detained at Kula and the women and children sent to Bascarsija

19     unless they converted to Orthodox on the spot.  And the Kula police

20     station letter confirming that the men from Gornji Kotorac had been

21     detained and then ultimately sent into Sarajevo city.

22             Now, whether you were aware of it or not, Mr. Mijanovic, Muslims

23     of Gornji Kotorac were driven out of Ilidza by the Ilidza authorities in

24     co-ordination with the Ministry of Justice and the

25     Ministry of the Interior.  They did not leave on their own and in an

Page 32396

 1     unorganised manner; isn't that right?

 2        A.   I don't understand the question.

 3        Q.   You claimed in your statement that the Muslims of Ilidza left on

 4     their own in an unorganised manner.  The documents I showed you indicated

 5     that the Muslims of Gornji Kotorac were expelled by the municipal

 6     authorities in Ilidza with assistance and co-ordination from the

 7     Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Justice; right?

 8        A.   Well, may I clarify?  The Kasindol Kula and Gornji Kotorac and

 9     Vojkovici settlements belonged to that part for which I said that I had

10     never been in during the war physically.  That part and those

11     settlements, the decision for temporary accommodation was prepared by the

12     Kasindol war commission and it was brought to me for my signature

13     pro forma as the president in Ilidza.  The MUP and the army systems to a

14     considerable extent, as far as I was concerned, were closed systems.  And

15     believe me that as far as this eastern part, which is how we referred to

16     it, is concerned, I had no information about anything there.

17        Q.   Okay.  But were you involved then in resettling Serbs into the --

18     into empty accommodation in that part of Ilidza, Kasindol and

19     Gornji Kotorac?  Were you involved in housing Serbs in Muslim homes

20     there?

21        A.   Yes, yes, by - and I repeat - way of the war commission from

22     those local communes, preparing the forms and proposals for decisions to

23     move in the refugees Serb population into abandoned houses.  I would sign

24     that in Ilidza.  It would arrive by mail, by messenger, and then I would

25     intensively participate in these matters only in the event of complaints.

Page 32397

 1        Q.   Okay.  You also said in your statement that although the

 2     authorities of the Serb municipality of Ilidza maintained contacts with

 3     Republika Srpska authorities, you said there were no instructions or

 4     orders issued by the authorities and organs of the Republika Srpska to

 5     expel or carry out ethnic cleansing of non-Serbs, and that's at

 6     paragraph 6 of your statement.  On Sunday when we spoke you confirmed

 7     that you personally had no contacts with any members of the

 8     Republika Srpska authorities, the authorities at the republic level,

 9     during the war; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   Okay.  So although you speak to the nature of those contacts, is

12     it fair to say that you do not have any detailed knowledge about what was

13     discussed or concluded in the contacts that other municipal authorities

14     in Ilidza had with the republic authorities; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, you're correct.

16        Q.   So, for example, you didn't know that Ilidza officials, including

17     Mr. Prstojevic, had a meeting with General Mladic on the

18     15th of June, 1992, at which it was concluded -- or at which one of the

19     conclusions of the meeting were "to clear the Serbian territory in which

20     Mojmilo and Dobrinja come first."  You don't know about that meeting?

21     Reference is P1478, page 170.

22        A.   No.  As far as I'm concerned, this is the top of the military and

23     political establishment and there was no reason for me to be involved or

24     informed about any of that.

25        Q.   And you also didn't know that ten days after this meeting on the

Page 32398

 1     25th of June, 1992, Mr. Prstojevic had a conversation with Rade Ristic,

 2     that Mr. Prstojevic confirmed or referred to Dobrinja 1 and Dobrinja 4,

 3     and that was at transcript page 13561, where Mr. Prstojevic instructed

 4     Mr. Ristic to hold on to it tightly and have them all killed there, all

 5     that is Muslim to be killed like Alija, and that he does not want to see

 6     one military-aged Muslim alive there.  You don't know about that

 7     conversation on the 25th of June, ten days after the meeting with

 8     General Mladic?

 9        A.   No.  Rade Ristic is a person from Vojkovici.  I don't know

10     exactly what his function was, and in any event that is a part where

11     Prstojevic lived before the war so he maintained those personal contacts.

12     And in any case, he was the kind of person who would not give his

13     associates unnecessary information, particularly not to me.

14        Q.   Okay.  So you can't really say then to what extent

15     Mr. Prstojevic's instructions to Mr. Ristic on the 25th of June, 1992,

16     are consistent or inconsistent with the meeting ten days earlier that

17     Mr. Prstojevic and others had with General Mladic and the conclusions

18     drawn at that meeting, can you?

19        A.   I have no comment.  I am unable to comment about that.

20        Q.   Okay.  And were you aware that in July of 1992, Mr. Prstojevic

21     attended a Republika Srpska Assembly session and said that:

22             "Namely when the Serbs started the uprising in Sarajevo and when

23     they seized control over certain territories there was no government or

24     at least it was not known where it was then.  Moreover, we even did not

25     know if Mr. Karadzic was alive during the first couple of days.  When we

Page 32399

 1     learnt that he was alive and when he visited us in Ilidza and encouraged

 2     us, the Serbs from Sarajevo retained control over the territory and even

 3     extended their territory in some areas, driving the Muslims out of the

 4     territories where they had actually been a majority."

 5             Are you aware that Mr. Prstojevic made this speech to the

 6     Republika Srpska Assembly in July 1992?

 7        A.   No, and I thought that Mr. Karadzic throughout the war never went

 8     to Ilidza.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, are you coming to a close?

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, I have one last document and one last

11     question.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:

14        Q.   I'd just like to show you one last document, Mr. Mijanovic, which

15     is P1486, page 186.  And this document you're about to see is an extract

16     from General Mladic's military notebook from the period 1994 and this

17     entry is from the 6th of July, 1994.  And it is a meeting with

18     President Prstojevic, and you've confirmed that Mr. Prstojevic was still

19     the president of Ilidza municipality at this time.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, I don't think we have uploaded the

21     B/C/S version yet.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:

23        Q.   And it's at the bottom of the page, meeting with

24     President Prstojevic.  And Mr. Prstojevic says:

25             "In connection with the assets confiscated," and we turn to the

Page 32400

 1     next page, "from captured Muslims, more than 200.000 German marks was

 2     confiscated."

 3             And then it lists a number of military items, bullet-proof

 4     jackets, Motorola hand-held radios, mine detectors, and it lists the

 5     thousands of Deutschemarks for these items.  And the last part of this

 6     entry says:

 7             " ...  for the Corps 31.000 Deutschemarks."

 8             The last question for you, Mr. Mijanovic, is:  Were you aware

 9     that Mr. Prstojevic was involved in confiscating 200.000 Deutschemarks

10     from captured Muslims and that he was providing some of these funds to

11     the Corps?

12        A.   Absolutely not.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I have no further questions.  Mark that 31.000

15     please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few questions,

18     Your Excellencies.  Good morning, Your Excellencies.  Good morning to

19     everyone.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mijanovic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I have to remind both you and myself to pause between answer and

24     question.  Can you please tell me, if you know, whether a prisoner of war

25     has the right to keep his money and valuables?  If you don't know this

Page 32401

 1     legal matter, then never mind.

 2        A.   Well, it's a difficult question.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that the eastern part of Ilidza was

 4     physically separated from the part where you were.  How was it separated,

 5     this eastern part?

 6        A.   The territory held by, let us call them, federal forces, the

 7     Muslim/Croatian forces, that is Dobrinja, Hrasnica, Sokolovic Kolonija,

 8     as well as the airport.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And before we surrendered the airport to the

10     United Nations, was there this physical connection, did it exist?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And are you able to tell us then where the line of

13     confrontation was in relation to Gornji Kotorac, Donji Kotorac, Butmir,

14     Sokolovic Kolonija, and Hrasnica?

15        A.   Well, I don't know because that's the eastern part which was not

16     accessible to me.

17        Q.   All right.  Very well.  Thank you.  In the western part,

18     Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica in relation to the Serbian part of

19     Ilidza, where were the lines of separation there?

20        A.   The lines of confrontation were immediately behind the

21     Ilidzanska Aleja Avenue.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And according to your knowledge, throughout the war

23     were Gornji Kotorac, Donji Kotorac, Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and

24     Hrasnica and the Serb parts of Ilidza part of the Sarajevo front?

25        A.   According to me, the part of Ilidza where I was was constantly a

Page 32402

 1     war zone.  Literally we did not have a narrow area behind our backs that

 2     was safe.  Throughout the war there was firing at Ilidza, at the

 3     hospital, the schools, and other institutions.  Probably in the eastern

 4     part Kasindol and the Kasindol hospital were somewhat more protected in

 5     that sense.  All the other settlements were either along the line of

 6     separation or they were constantly exposed to combat action.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And when Prstojevic is being cited or some other

 8     soldier and when it says it will be cleansed, what does that mean to you,

 9     cleansing, in military terminology?  What is it being cleansed of?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, before you answer.

11             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The witness denied all knowledge of all matters

13     military.  This is a waste of time.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  We agree, Mr. Karadzic.  Move on to another topic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P1126 for a

17     moment again, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And while we are waiting, Mr. Mijanovic, can you please tell us

20     if on or around the 12th of May, 1992, there were any events in the

21     Ilidza area, both east and west?

22        A.   Could you please clarify a little bit?  What sort of events?

23        Q.   Do you know when -- do you know if there were any attacks carried

24     out at Ilidza and what were the most intensive attacks from the beginning

25     of April until the end of May in that area?

Page 32403

 1        A.   I know that in April, the 22nd, the 24th, there was a horrendous

 2     attack on Ilidza even though I was not in Ilidza at the time.  The second

 3     and perhaps the largest attack for the whole war period occurred on the

 4     14th of May.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And are you able to look at this first paragraph here

 6     now?  Could you please read it in its entirety.  Not the information but

 7     since May 12th, could you please read it out loud.

 8        A.   Ministry of Internal Affairs, attention president SJB --

 9        Q.   No, no, this passage that begins:  From the 12th of May ...

10        A.   "Since the 12th of May, 1992, until the 20th of May, 1992, there

11     are 156 persons detained in KPD Butmir, taken into custody on various

12     grounds.  Preliminary operative interviews were conducted with these

13     persons and lists containing all necessary personal data were delivered

14     on time to the MUP Vraca ..." or something like that, out of this number.

15        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  This is sufficient.  This paragraph, does

16     it tell you something and what does this mean "on various grounds"?  Were

17     they brought in on a discriminating basis because of their religion or

18     was there any grounds for any kind of criminal acts?

19        A.   Well, I really wouldn't be able to comment on that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  [Previous translation continues]...

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I apologise.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It's all right.  The witness answered it.  Again,

23     this witness said he had no involvement or any knowledge of these kinds

24     of operations.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I was about to raise the same point, but

Page 32404

 1     the witness has answered.  I don't see any point of questions as to which

 2     the witness has already answered that he doesn't know.

 3             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't need to call up

 5     document P1151.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   There was a question put to you in regard of that on page 14, and

 8     it was suggested in the question that the -- you were resettling - that

 9     was the term that was used.  Were you resettling Serbs when you were

10     issuing these decisions or were you doing something else?

11        A.   There was no resettling.  It was temporary accommodation of

12     refugees.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And what does that mean, temporary?

14        A.   It means without -- actually, in the decisions that I signed, it

15     is clearly noted that the temporary category means until the end of war

16     at the latest without the person living there acquiring the right of

17     ownership or tenancy in the said accommodation.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And the property of those who left during the war,

19     Muslims and Croats who left Ilidza, was it returned to the owners in its

20     entirety?

21        A.   As far as the information from the post-war period that was

22     available to me, the Republika Srpska area was where all movable property

23     was restored to its rightful owners, ownership of land, property,

24     apartments up to a percentage of 99.9 per cent.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And my last question has to do with some intercepts

Page 32405

 1     being quoted.  Did you understand that these conversations were serious,

 2     especially when Prstojevic says:  Anybody who takes on the Orthodox faith

 3     can stay.  How did you understand that?

 4        A.   Well, Prstojevic is one of the people --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Mijanovic.

 6             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  In light of the witness's answer about having no

 8     knowledge of any of the substance of these conversations, I don't think

 9     this is a fair question.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, agree again.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   It was quoted to you that Serbs from Ilidza controlled some

14     Muslim settlements as well.  Can you recall any Muslim neighbourhood that

15     came under our control and can you tell us the main Muslim neighbourhoods

16     and can you tell us whether this was an exaggeration or whether that was

17     correct?

18        A.   I cannot recall any Muslim settlement in particular that was

19     under the control of the Serbian army or the Serbian authorities.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And after these first battles, were there any Muslims

21     and Croats left in Ilidza?  Did they remain to live there?  And were

22     there any refugees coming to Ilidza who were not Serbs?

23        A.   In any event, there was quite a number of Croats, in view of the

24     fact that the neighbouring Kiseljak was a predominantly Croat settlement,

25     and by the very nature of things the area between Kiseljak and Ilidza was

Page 32406

 1     an area where there were a lot of mixed marriages, so that we had the

 2     situation where a certain number of Croats were included in the work duty

 3     and war time activities on the Serbian side.  And there were cases that

 4     Serbs in Kiseljak participated in HVO formations or however they were

 5     called.  As far as Muslims are concerned, there were many more elderly

 6     citizens who stayed in Ilidza to guard their apartments or their homes.

 7     I could refer to them as non-vital -- the non-vital population.  It's

 8     true that there were instances when somebody would come from the Federal

 9     part to Ilidza - perhaps it was an exception but it was a telling

10     example - the one of Andjelko Raguz, a pre-war policeman who came from

11     the Federal part.  He spent the whole war in the police force in Ilidza

12     and he's living in the Serbian part of Ilidza to this day.  Probably his

13     reasons for doing that were that he was born and all his forefathers

14     lived in predominantly Serb settlements throughout the war.  They had no

15     problems with Serbs.  So in his way this was how he decided to

16     participate in the war.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Mijanovic.  I have no further

18     questions for you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mijanovic.  Now your evidence is

20     over; I thank you on behalf of the Chamber for your coming to The Hague

21     to give it.  Now you are free to go.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we bring the next witness then?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 32407

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do you need a short break, Ms. Edgerton?

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Good morning.  We'll just need to shift.  It will

 3     only take a couple of minutes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             Ms. Edgerton, I wasn't informed whether or not a Rule 90(E)

 6     advice is warranted for the next witness.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't have my earphones

 8     on and I actually didn't hear you.  I don't have the transcript in front

 9     of me.

10             MR. TIEGER:  The answer is yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

13     please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  MILENKO INDJIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Indjic.  Please be seated and make

19     yourself comfortable.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before you start giving evidence, Mr. Indjic, I

22     would like to draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the

23     Tribunal.  Under this rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a

24     question from the accused, the Prosecution, or from the Judges if you

25     believe that your answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate,"

Page 32408

 1     I mean that something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt

 2     for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you have committed

 3     an offence.  However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you

 4     and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to

 5     compel you to answer the question.  But in such a case, the Tribunal will

 6     make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used

 7     as evidence in other case against you for any offence other than false

 8     testimony.

 9             Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Indjic.

12             Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic.

16        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Like all the witnesses who speak Serbian, I have to ask you and

18     also remind myself for the benefit of the interpreters and the transcript

19     that we should pause between question and answer and answer and question.

20     I see you've been promoted in the transcript to colonel, whereas I said

21     lieutenant-colonel, but that's a good omen.

22        A.   Well, I would like to thank the court reporter.

23        Q.   Have you ever provided a statement to the Defence team?

24        A.   Yes, Mr. President.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would now like to call up 1D7030

Page 32409

 1     in e-court.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is this the statement that you gave to my Defence team?

 4        A.   Yes, this is the beginning of the statement, but I would like to

 5     be shown the last page to make sure that the entire statement is

 6     included.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the last page

 8     and the signature.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the statement that I

10     gave to your Defence team.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read the statement and does it reflect

13     accurately your words?

14        A.   Yes, I've read the entire statement and it reflects my words

15     accurately.

16        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today that

17     were put to you by members of my team, would your answers to the

18     questions in essence be the same?

19        A.   My questions to the -- my answers to these questions would be the

20     same in essence, perhaps somewhat longer.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

23     tender this package, but a number of documents will be led live.  From

24     pages 49 through the end of the statement, we will lead this viva voce.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And you will redact those paragraphs, i.e., para --

Page 32410

 1     from para 173 to para 189?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  With that understanding, we'll receive the statement

 4     unless there's an objection from Ms. Edgerton.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2774, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Now I will read out in English a summary statement of

10     Lieutenant-Colonel Milenko Indjic.

11             [In English] Milenko Indjic was a liaison officer in the

12     Main Staff of the SRK.

13             Milenko Indjic was not familiarised with the strategic objectives

14     of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  He considers that the operations were

15     mainly defensive, to maintain the line of separation that had been

16     established when barricades were set up before the war broke out.  The

17     blockade of the 1st Corps of the BH army -- the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

18     prevented 40.000 fighters from this 1st Corps from Sarajevo joined other

19     fronts, which would have given the BH army an important military

20     advantage.  It was the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps's commitment that a total

21     cessation of hostilities should take place in BH.  An agreement was made

22     in June 1992 that the airport should be taken over by the UNPROFOR and

23     used exclusively for humanitarian purposes.

24             Milenko Indjic had never heard of any plan to completely

25     eliminate the Muslim population of Sarajevo nor to deliberately target

Page 32411

 1     the civilian population.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps lacked professional

 2     servicemen at lower levels.  The means of communication between corps

 3     command and brigades functioned well.  From brigade level to lower units,

 4     a person had to be sent to the location to stop the fire from a weapon,

 5     which could take half an hour.  There were difficulties with the supply

 6     of clothing, ammunition, spare parts, food, and fuel, which was often

 7     bought from UNPROFOR members.

 8             Lieutenant-Colonel Milenko Indjic states that it was clearly

 9     specified in the rules when a unit can open fire without the order of

10     superior command; for instance, if the troops or the buildings which they

11     have possession of are under fire, or there is an activity directly

12     threatening to the lives of the troops.  However, issues occurred in

13     lower levels of the soldiers because there were not a sufficient number

14     of professional officers.  Daily reports of troop activities were

15     submitted to the corps command as part of the regular procedure.

16             There were a number of paramilitary units in BH and efforts were

17     made to prevent the existence of these units and to place them under the

18     control of corps command.  In 1993 these units were disbanded and the

19     individuals reassigned to the units with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

20     The Muslims in B&H adopted the same principles as had been seen in

21     Croatia and Slovenia.  They carried out blockades of the JNA barracks,

22     the JNA centres, military hospital, school centres, and barracks of the

23     military police unit.  Further, they carried out massacres against the

24     JNA.

25             At the beginning of the war, a large number of civilians of

Page 32412

 1     various nationalities were leaving Sarajevo, the VRS was allowing all

 2     civilians to leave.  The Muslim authorities did not allow both Muslims

 3     and Serb civilians to leave.

 4             As liaison officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Milenko Indjic's main

 5     activity was to co-ordinate all activities of the international

 6     institutions with the activities of VRS.  The group received requests,

 7     protests, and petitions from the other side or representatives of the

 8     international community for institutions on their side.  These requests

 9     were processed and forwarded and vice versa.  The PTT building where the

10     group worked was situated in the Muslim-controlled area and frequent

11     firing could be heard.  The liaison team moved to Lukavica in

12     mid-September when they received direct threats from the Muslim side that

13     they would be killed.

14             In his role as liaison officer, Milenko Indjic could not give

15     approval of movement of UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid convoys.  This

16     could only be given exclusively through written documents of the

17     Main Staff of Army of Republika Srpska and the corps command.

18             At corps level, the Serb side insisted that the repair of gas,

19     water, and electricity infrastructure be conducted on both sides.  The

20     Serbs from Ilidza supplied half of Sarajevo.  On the other hand the

21     Muslims from Mojmilo did not allow for Lukavica to be supplied.  Further

22     uninterrupted communication between Lukavica and Pale was impossible due

23     to the constant fire by the Muslim side.

24             As liaison officer Lieutenant-Colonel Milenko Indjic received

25     protests from UNPROFOR, UNMO, and civilians which he confirmed, dealt

Page 32413

 1     with quickly, and passed to the appropriate level.  However, a number of

 2     these came from the other side and were a war time ploy.  Protests lodged

 3     by the Serbian side were never given any response.  Full satisfaction was

 4     expressed by all members of the UN with the level of co-operation

 5     received from the SRK, and this was declared openly at meetings.

 6             During the fighting in Sarajevo, the BH opened artillery fire on

 7     a daily basis from the area of the Kosevo Hospital and other civilian

 8     objects.  Due to the nature of Sarajevo, the entire city of Sarajevo was

 9     at the same time a civilian area and a military area.  The

10     Patriotic League entered the war in an organised fashion compared to the

11     Serb side which was only formed at the outbreak of the conflict.

12             Lieutenant-Colonel Milenko Indjic did not receive protests from

13     civilians about shelling emanating from SRK forces.  Neither he did

14     receive any protests about deliberate or indiscriminate targeting of

15     civilians.  A plan never existed of low intensity operations with the aim

16     of terrorising civilians in Sarajevo.  An anti-sniper agreement was drawn

17     up, signed by General Galic; however, this was ineffective.

18             The Serb side allowed humanitarian aid use of the blue routes

19     that had previously been agreed; however, the Muslim leadership refused

20     to let the convoys pass as they were preventing the movement of civilians

21     and making leaving Sarajevo impossible.  On one occasion a container for

22     the neighbourhood of Butmir or Dobrinja was searched and weapons and

23     ammunition were found concealed inside.

24             That would be a short summary.  Now I would like to pose some

25     questions to the witness.

Page 32414

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, two issues.  First, I'm not sure if

 2     this is a translation issue, but at the end -- at the outset of your

 3     summary, although it does not form part of evidence, you introduce

 4     Mr. Indjic as a liaison officer in the Main Staff of the SRK.  I'm not

 5     sure if I understand it correctly.  So you clarify with the witness.  And

 6     secondly, in the case of other military personnel, I would like you to

 7     deal with his military career before and after the war as well.  Please

 8     continue, briefly as possible.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, what did you liaise or who did you liaise

12     between on behalf of the Serbs?

13        A.   Well, the institutions and -- the institution and group for

14     co-operation with the international community was specific.  It had not

15     existed within the military before that.  So physically we were located

16     on the premises of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; however, our work went

17     beyond -- the significance of our work was beyond the

18     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps so that we maintained communication between the

19     Main Staff of the VRS and international organisations and also partly

20     with the political leadership and between the political leadership and

21     international institutions.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that settles that.  Now, could you tell us

23     when you were born and where?

24        A.   I was born in Sarajevo on April 1st, 1957.

25        Q.   Perhaps you could tell us in the briefest of terms about your

Page 32415

 1     educational background.

 2        A.   I completed my primary education and then I went to the aviation

 3     academy with the military, and then the aviation technical academy at

 4     Rajlovac.  Once I completed my programme there I became an officer and I

 5     continued my education through specialised training.  I went to a

 6     language school.  I went to an intelligence training college and I took

 7     an exam to become a major, which in military terms is the equivalent of

 8     an MA.  That would be it as far as my education is concerned.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  How exactly did you move up in terms of your career?

10     What positions did you hold?

11        A.   When I first became an officer after completing the military

12     academy, I started serving in Rajlovac as a platoon commander with cadets

13     in the secondary education centre in Rajlovac.  I remained in that

14     command position for some years and then I went to the intelligence

15     school.  I continued to serve at the academy in Rajlovac as a teacher of

16     intelligence and security and foreign military forces.  When the UN

17     mission for the former Yugoslavia was set up, I received orders from the

18     federal secretariat for All People's Defence assigning me as a member of

19     that group for co-operation with the UN headed by General Aksentijevic.

20     When the JNA left Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was reassigned to work in the

21     group for co-operation with international institutions of the VRS.  When

22     the war was over I became a member of the 410th Intelligence Centre, and

23     after leaving that institution, I was with the security administration of

24     the General Staff of the VRS until I retired in 2003.

25        Q.   Thank you.  As for all of these appointments that you held after

Page 32416

 1     Dayton, was there any verification or check that was conducted by the

 2     international community?

 3        A.   No, I don't think I was vetted by the international community.

 4     The positions that I was appointed to were not subject to any checks by

 5     the international community.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So the war found you working in Sarajevo as a JNA

 7     officer; is that what you said?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   When the JNA withdrew to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, what

10     were the avenues open to you at that point?

11        A.   I had two or perhaps three options:  A, I could relocate with my

12     colleagues from the Rajlovac centre to Belgrade to the academy there and

13     continue my career as a professor; B, I had the option of paying my debt

14     to the Serb people and everybody else in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or

15     rather, Republika Srpska and help defend the Serb people there - and this

16     is what I did; formally, there was also a third possibility which I never

17     even considered, and that was to desert from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hold any command posts before the war during

19     your career?

20        A.   That was only after the academy and before I went to the

21     intelligence school when I was platoon commander in the secondary school

22     training centre in Rajlovac.

23        Q.   Thank you very much.  Just to go back briefly to something

24     regarding your career, did you receive any awards, commendations, medals,

25     and the like?

Page 32417

 1        A.   Yes, I received a number of commendations.  During the war I

 2     received the mercy cross for humanitarian work in the war by your side.

 3        Q.   When you say "by your side," so you got this medal from

 4     Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Yes.  When I said "by your side," incidentally it was you in

 6     person as the then-president that actually signed the decision to award

 7     this medal to me.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that you did humanitarian work for the

 9     sake of the Serbs alone?

10        A.   No, I never saw humanitarian work as something that only pertains

11     to one ethnic group.  When it came to humanitarian matters, I always took

12     a broad view.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I realise the

15     time.  Should I go on with my questions or should we perhaps take the

16     break now?  I have about 20 documents to go through live.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll take a break for half an hour and

18     resume at 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, could you please tell us which of the parties

24     involved in the war?

25        A.   I have a problem.  I'm receiving French interpretation in my

Page 32418

 1     headset.

 2        Q.   Yes, me too.  Channel number 6 is the one that you're looking

 3     for.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Are you hearing me in your language?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I'm hearing you, but I had translation in French.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Probably there's some misconnection.  I take it it

 7     has been sorted out now?

 8             THE WITNESS:  I hope so.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you hear me in Serbian now?

10             THE WITNESS:  I -- yes, I can -- yes, yes, that's okay.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Let me see.

13             Could you repeat, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you please tell us, Lieutenant-Colonel, which of the warring

16     parties at the beginning of the war and until the month of June was

17     controlling the Sarajevo airport?

18        A.   The Serb side had the airport under its control until the

19     Sarajevo airport was handed over to the UN.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Why exactly was the airport handed over to the UN, if

21     you know?

22        A.   When the agreement was signed on the hand-over of the airport by

23     the UN, the airport was handed over to be used for humanitarian purposes

24     only, so for shipment of humanitarian aid in order to avoid a

25     humanitarian disaster and so that the UN soldiers there received all of

Page 32419

 1     the necessary supplies.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What about the confrontation lines, how far were they

 3     from the airport itself?

 4        A.   You might say that the confrontation lines comprised the airport

 5     area.  They were right next to the airport's perimeter, on both sides as

 6     a matter of fact.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Based on your military knowledge, what were the most

 8     dangerous weapons in terms of constituting a threat to airplanes landing

 9     and taking off?

10        A.   When you talk about airplanes, first and foremost you talk about

11     anti-aircraft weapons because those are the weapons most frequently used

12     to target any incoming airplanes or, indeed, those leaving the airport.

13        Q.   Did the Serb side actually have such weapons available to them at

14     the time?

15        A.   Yes, the Serb side did have anti-aircraft weapons; nonetheless,

16     this was one of the provisions that was part of the airport agreement,

17     which implied that the airport should be safe.  And that meant that the

18     anti-aircraft weapons had to be moved out of that area and out of range

19     so that they couldn't target any aircraft landing or taking off.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D06510.  Could that document

21     please be brought up in e-court.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   It's a letter that I wrote to the UN.  Were you shown this

24     document at any point during proofing and are you familiar with the

25     subject matter?

Page 32420

 1        A.   The Defence team showed me this document so I am familiar with

 2     it.  As for the subject matter, yes, I'm absolutely familiar with that.

 3     I was personally involved in co-ordinating these activities in terms of

 4     pulling out the anti-aircraft weapons, in keeping with this document.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please go to the next page

 7     of the document.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   What was the principal concern of the Serb side in terms of a

10     plane potentially being shot down?

11        A.   The principal concern was to prove where the firing came from,

12     where the plane was targeted from.  The main thing was to avoid the Serb

13     side being accused of shooting a plane down.  That is why everybody was

14     fully ready to remain in keeping with the agreement in terms of pulling

15     out all the anti-aircraft weapons out of range so that no planes could be

16     targeted.

17        Q.   Do you remember the incident involving an Italian airplane

18     referred to in this document?  How far was this plane from our lines and

19     was an attempt made to pin this on us?  Can you please look at A.2.:

20             [In English] "The following forces of the

21     Army of the Republika Srpska are stationed within the 45 kilometre radius

22     of the site where the Italian airplane was downed ..."

23        A.   Yes, this shows where exactly the Serb forces were.  I have no

24     accurate information regarding that incident, but there was intelligence

25     that was retrieved after the incident and the whole thing was analysed.

Page 32421

 1     I think this was an Italian airplane that was shot down somewhere in the

 2     Fojnica general area and I think it was targeted by the Croat forces if

 3     memory serves.

 4        Q.   Were the Serbs able at all to shoot down a plane flying over

 5     Fojnica?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.  Can you please

 9     go to A.3.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Any reference to you there in relation to organising the

12     humanitarian nature of the UNHCR flights?

13        A.   Yes, my name is mentioned there, and I can explain that when the

14     airport was over and fully operational, then there were specially

15     appointed liaison officers whose duty it was to monitor those

16     humanitarian flights at Sarajevo airport and elsewhere, abroad, at

17     Frankfurt, for example.  So I ceased to be involved in this, but what

18     we're looking at in this specific case, yes, I was involved and that was

19     my role at the time.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  Once the Serb side handed the airport over

21     to UNPROFOR, was the airport used for humanitarian purposes alone or was

22     it also put to other kinds of use?

23        A.   I assert that the airport was also used for other purposes which

24     we believed to constitute a misuse of the terms.  I'm talking about the

25     runway.  I'm talking about the area above the runway as well as the area

Page 32422

 1     under the runway.  The UNPROFOR people knew about the fact that a tunnel

 2     was built underneath the airport which the Muslim forces used to regroup.

 3     The airport was also used for the transport of Muslim delegations of

 4     varying levels for the purposes of their travel across the world and they

 5     were lobbying for the Muslim cause.  It was also used to bring in persons

 6     with assignments that were at the very least suspicious.  Neither were

 7     they members of diplomatic missions nor indeed were they members of the

 8     UN.  And the greatest instance of misuse of the airport, the airport was

 9     used for the purpose of arming the Muslims.  There were several examples

10     of that.  The most dramatic example being when ammunition was found

11     hidden in a double-bottomed container that was used to ship humanitarian

12     aid into Butmir airport.

13        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation and you can also follow on

14     your own screen to make sure interpretation is completed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

16     document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  No objection, Ms. Edgerton?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2775, Your Honours.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On the whole, what was the position of the Serb side regarding

23     shipment of humanitarian aid for civilians, not just by air but on the

24     whole?  What position did the Serb side take to that issue, civilian

25     supplies for Sarajevo?

Page 32423

 1        A.   The Serbian approach, generally speaking, was a positive as far

 2     as any form of humanitarian aid was concerned, food, clothes, medical

 3     supplies, evacuations.  But it was always important to underline and

 4     point out the fact that Sarajevo was not just the limited extent of

 5     Sarajevo under Muslim control but that Sarajevo was a broader area.  And

 6     the issue of humanitarian aid was something that should apply equally to

 7     all, regardless of ethnicity.  People were starving everywhere.  In

 8     Grbavica which was Serb controlled at the time, in Vogosca which was Serb

 9     controlled at the time, just the same as people in Muslim-controlled

10     Sarajevo were starving and were short of food.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  Was a procedure agreed with UNPROFOR and

12     other international organisations in terms of allowing convoys to pass

13     through and endowing our side with the right to check the convoys coming

14     in?

15        A.   There was a war on, so it was necessary to define certain norms

16     and frameworks within which humanitarian convoys were free to move in and

17     out.  This had nothing to do with restricting UNPROFOR's freedom of

18     movement because UNPROFOR was there merely to act as an escort for

19     humanitarian convoys.  What was the procedure about?  Primarily a convoy

20     had to be announced in a timely manner so that we knew exactly when it

21     would be arriving and what route into Sarajevo it would be taking as well

22     as any equipment that they were bringing in.  There were two reasons for

23     that, the first being the timely issuance of permits so that the relevant

24     units could receive their orders --

25        Q.   Can I please ask you to just slow down a little.

Page 32424

 1        A.   The first reason being orders could be issued in a timely manner

 2     to specific units through whose area of responsibility a convoy would be

 3     passing, in order to make sure that all of the convoy personnel were

 4     fully safe.  Secondly, everything being brought in would be checked in

 5     order to make sure there was nothing untoward happening, such as military

 6     equipment being brought in, which was not allowed.

 7        Q.   Were there instances of such abuses?

 8        A.   Yes, several of them.

 9        Q.   Now, what -- how did it work?  If a convoy appeared at a

10     check-point without previous announcement and without any declaration on

11     what they were carrying, what would happen?

12        A.   Well, in those cases the convoy would not be allowed to pass

13     through our zone and they would be turned back until they submitted the

14     requests that were required and followed the rules and procedure that

15     everyone was aware of.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what would happen if a convoy received a permit

17     for Karakaj and they would show up at Sefik?

18        A.   They wouldn't be allowed to pass.  It would have to follow the

19     requested route and the route that was already approved.  And again I

20     have to say this was primarily because the objective was to ensure the

21     safety of the convoy along the axis where it was moving.  And we have to

22     bear in mind that the convoys were moving through war zones.  It was war

23     time after all.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at 1D01472, could we pull it up in

25     e-court.  1D01472.  Would you please take a look at paragraph 3 which

Page 32425

 1     speaks of lack of understanding.  Please read it out to yourself and tell

 2     us what it deals with.

 3        A.   Here we see in paragraph 3 that there are several elements.  The

 4     first element deals with Blazuj and a factory in Blazuj and the Orao

 5     aircraft factory where UNPROFOR members tried to enter those facilities.

 6     I have to clarify something here.  These were by no means isolated

 7     incidents.  It was clear that some elements of the UN had their own

 8     intelligence missions and tasks, including establishing what the

 9     situation was at certain facilities and locations.  That is quite normal

10     and it was quite understandable; however, it couldn't be handled the way

11     anyone wished them to be handled.  There had to be approval and

12     agreement, either with the civilian authorities from the area where that

13     particular facility was located or in agreement with military

14     authorities.

15        Q.   Just one question in that respect.  The mandate, the UN mandate,

16     that we agreed to, did that include intelligence work without our

17     approval and without our knowledge?

18        A.   The UN mandate, as far as I know, was to provide -- to ensure

19     humanitarian missions and oversee them on the ground, and all activities

20     were supposed to be completely transparent and transparency implies

21     exclusion of any intelligence activities.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the remainder of paragraph 3, just tell us

23     briefly what it deals with.

24        A.   The remainder of the paragraph.

25        Q.   We have to bear with the interpreters, so please, you should also

Page 32426

 1     interfere when I am not on time.

 2        A.   Now, the problems, here it deals with the regular problems that

 3     occurred on a regular basis, the movement of UNPROFOR, for which we

 4     always tried to ensure the safest routes.  And in this particular

 5     instance I -- and this was outside of my authorities as the

 6     Chief of Staff admonished me, but I took it upon myself to allow this

 7     convoy to pass through the zone where the command was.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could we have the next page, please.  Now I made the

 9     error.

10        A.   On this page we can see that incident that I mentioned a few

11     moments ago.  I'm aware of this instance where a French humanitarian

12     convoy was stopped, and these problems were especially present and

13     difficult with convoys arriving from France.  The reason being that

14     Sarajevo had the greatest number of French forces.  There was the

15     French Battalion 2 at the airport, 4 at Skenderija, 5 at Hadzici, I

16     believe, so that the French took advantage of the presence of the French

17     troops there and they felt that they didn't really have to comply with

18     the procedures and that they were sufficient, that they could secure

19     their own contingents.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could we have the next page in the Serbian version.

21     The English version is fine.  What does the first paragraph deal with

22     here?  It says there was a misunderstanding, something to do with some

23     containers, and did they have the right to interfere with the deployment

24     of our forces?

25        A.   Well, this problem with a container at the entrance to

Page 32427

 1     Kasindolska Street, that's also something that I'm also quite familiar

 2     with.  Kasindolska Street had the following position:  The entrance to

 3     the street was open to infantry fire from the Muslim side, from Dobrinja.

 4     And for this reason, there was a container placed at that spot that was

 5     supposed to serve as - if I may put it that way - an anti-sniper barrier.

 6     Now, I'm not quite aware what the reason was for UNPROFOR to feel that

 7     this container shouldn't be there because it didn't interfere with the

 8     traffic at all and there were numerous such containers in various places

 9     of Sarajevo that were under Muslim control and there were even instances

10     where the UNPROFOR themselves placed containers for those purposes.  So

11     it was our impression that simply they were trying to provoke our

12     reaction.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please read the third paragraph, "It is

14     clear that..."  Could you please read it out loud.

15        A.   "It is clear that the UN are mounting an offensive against us,

16     and the considerable amount of arrogance they are displaying is the kind

17     usually meted out to those who have lost a war."

18             It is difficult for me to make any comment here because this kind

19     of behaviour or conduct by a large number of members of the UN was

20     predominant throughout the war and this was the -- their conduct towards

21     the Serb side.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And what about their attitude towards the Muslim

23     side?

24        A.   Well, I've never heard that any Muslims complained of that, and

25     there was very frequently the impression that they were just an extended

Page 32428

 1     arm of the Muslims.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

 3     into evidence, please.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2776, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   What did you know as a liaison officer about the meetings between

 8     the warring parties and UNPROFOR and what did you know about the topics

 9     that was discussed there?

10        A.   One of the main methods in trying to establish any kind of

11     cease-fire was to hold these meetings of warring parties where UNPROFOR

12     would mediate, and these meetings would be held at all levels, at

13     General Staff levels, corps commands and even at lower levels.  Our

14     general position on this was, in view of the fact that our position from

15     the outside was one of peace, so our position was that we should always

16     accept these meetings and be as constructive as possible in seeking

17     arrangements to stop the conflict.

18             Now, in addition to these arrangements that were supposed to lead

19     to an end to conflicts, there were other -- there was a series of

20     meetings at lower levels where daily problems were discussed, such as

21     humanitarian aid, repairs to infrastructure, such as water-supply,

22     electric supply, medical evacuations, exchanges of prisoners of war, and

23     generally the issue of the freedom of movement.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you attend such meetings and did you have any

25     other authority in addition to your liaison function?

Page 32429

 1        A.   For the most part, I did attend those meetings, or rather, it

 2     would be either me or someone else from the group for co-operation with

 3     the UN.  Our job was most usually the help as liaison officers, so

 4     providing help as liaison officers, perhaps providing interpretation,

 5     sending reports or submitting reports.  And in some rare instances I was

 6     empowered by the commander to sign off on an agreement that had been

 7     reached.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D06513 in

10     e-court, 1D06513.  I'm afraid we don't have a translation of this

11     document.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   And I will ask you to clarify some of the circumstances there.

14     Can you tell us what this document is about and who is submitting this

15     report, because we see that the Serb delegation is referred to as the

16     Chetnik delegation?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Before the witness answers, Your Honour, I note

19     that there's no translation of this document, so unless one is expected

20     or undertaken to be provided before the cross-examination begins, I don't

21     know how we can effectively use this document at all.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, there were occasions where

23     both sides submitted documents from time to time that hadn't been

24     translated yet, because for us it's also a problem when a document is

25     presented in the English version without a translation.  And that is the

Page 32430

 1     reason, in fact, why we tried to interpret live these untranslated

 2     documents.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I don't remember there are many instances the

 4     Prosecution used untranslated translation, and I will not comment on your

 5     submission that -- regarding the English document.

 6             But, Ms. Edgerton, if the Defence is going to use an untranslated

 7     document and if the Defence is to introduce the crux of the document,

 8     would there be any problem for your preparation?  There was such

 9     instances before, weren't there?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honour.  And normally I wouldn't rise on

11     something like that if the document was, frankly, rather small.  But by

12     my count this document is in excess of ten pages.  So if it's something

13     where I thought we could reasonably deal with the crux of the document,

14     by all means, you're absolutely correct.  But I think this one which,

15     just by my understanding of some of the citations looks like a transcript

16     of a meeting, is really a bit too big to be able to do that effectively.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Let's see whether we can admit this document after

18     his examination on this issue is over.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see where the source of

22     misunderstanding is because my words were misunderstood.  On page 47 I

23     said that the reason why we are offering untranslated documents live,

24     although that is not in keeping with the decision of the Trial Chamber,

25     is that they have not been translated.  We don't have them.  And I don't

Page 32431

 1     know what's happening today, but the interpretation is a disaster.  It

 2     would be simpler to say that it's the position of the Trial Chamber that

 3     whatever has not the been translated has to be led live with the witness.

 4     That is my point.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you remember, Lieutenant-Colonel, this meeting of the

 7     subcommittee held at the airport on the 31st of March, 1993?

 8        A.   I do remember it.  There were various subcommittees established

 9     to deal with various issues and this is one such subcommittee that was

10     supposed to deal with the issue of ensuring freedom of movement into and

11     out of Sarajevo.  This specific document that I see before me is

12     obviously a document produced by the Muslim side, seeing that the

13     delegation that I was a member of was referred to as the delegation of

14     Chetniks, which was not UNPROFOR terminology.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please go to page 5 of this

17     document.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

19        Q.   Can you confirm the remark made by Ms. Edgerton, this is some

20     sort of a transcript or minutes of that meeting?  You see that there are

21     quotes there.

22        A.   Yes, this is a textbook transcript produced by the Muslim side.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us about this bit from Valentin and then

24     down from there?  What is that about?  What routes are mentioned and who

25     are these routes for?  What is the position of the Serbs?  What is that

Page 32432

 1     of the Croats?  And what is that of the Muslims?

 2        A.   The position of the Serb side in terms of freedom of movement was

 3     that freedom of movement had to be ensured unconditionally and had to

 4     apply to all.  Any restrictions on the freedom of movement in any shape

 5     or form would have led to families being torn asunder and to violations

 6     of the fundamental human rights of individual persons.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us what is the position taken by Mr. Pelko, a

 8     Muslim?

 9        A.   Pelko at the time was the Muslim brigade commander.  He took the

10     view that men of military age - that means aged between 16 and 60 -

11     should not be subject to this agreement.  A state of war had been

12     declared throughout the Muslim-controlled territory and they refused to

13     allow freedom of movement for all.  What this implied was that Serbs

14     would not be allowed to enjoy freedom of movement and would therefore be

15     forced to stay as hostages in Sarajevo because they were not assigned to

16     military units as soldiers, so their only purpose would have been to

17     remain there as hostages.

18        Q.   Thank you very much.  And what was the position taken by the Serb

19     side or, as the document says, the Chetniks, headed by you at this

20     meeting?

21        A.   Our position was freedom of movement for all unconditionally, a

22     fundamental human right to choose a place of residence.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please go to the bottom of

24     the page.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32433

 1        Q.   There is some sort of a compromise there.  What was the position

 2     taken by the UN, by Valentin?

 3        A.   Colonel Valentin was obviously not in a mood to clash with the

 4     Muslims there; therefore, he threw out our proposal on freedom of

 5     movement for all.  Our side then attempted to come up with a compromise.

 6     There were those groups that the Muslims wished to deny freedom of

 7     movement and we wanted to have this allowed for them based on the

 8     principle of reciprocity.

 9        Q.   Can you please read out what you said at the bottom of the page.

10        A.   A compromise.  Stick with unrestricted freedom of movement but

11     without having a regrouping of military forces, that is, that for men

12     aged between 16 and 60 and for them to enjoy freedom of movement based on

13     the principle of reciprocity.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Please focus on the part about Valentin and Srebrenica.  And then

18     what is Pelko saying, what are you saying, and what is Valentin saying

19     there?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we pull up the page, please.

21     Thank you.  Thank you.  That's fine.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   So after where it says "in Srebrenica" and then on from there.

24        A.   It is quite obvious what the position is taken by the UN and the

25     Serb side is the same thing.  No separation of families must be allowed,

Page 32434

 1     despite which the Muslim side here invokes the fact that they have a

 2     state of war in their territory and that men are military conscripts and

 3     they refuse to have unconditional freedom of movement as part of this

 4     agreement.

 5        Q.   Can you please read what Pelko says, where he says "we are

 6     sticking with," and on from there.  Take it easy, please.  One quote at a

 7     time.

 8        A.   "Pelko:  We are sticking with women, children aged up to 16, and

 9     men aged up to 60 under international law.  This is a war and military

10     conscripts must stay or men liable to military duty must stay.

11             "Valentin:  This is not an international law.  This is a rule

12     that we are imposing ourselves.  Here are the conclusions based on my

13     proposal because these are humanitarian corridors.

14             "Indjic:  We accept the compromise to keep the families together

15     and for the men to be released."

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to page 8 of this

18     document, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Can you please read your own quote, your own contribution, where

21     you say "I cannot understand."

22        A.   My quote:

23             "I cannot understand why we can't go for unconditional freedom

24     because we are offering to others the same thing that we are claiming for

25     ourselves."

Page 32435

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please just look at another page, page 3 -- or

 2     actually, just a minute, please.  We have ERN 084.  Page 3 it is.

 3             Can you please tell us what this is about.  They're talking about

 4     collection centres.

 5             "Valentin:  What would be a good places for a collection centre?"

 6             And then what are the Chetniks saying and then all the way up to

 7     Pelko's contribution.

 8        A.   This is about technical issues, where to organise collection

 9     points for people and what routes would be used in order to possibly

10     implement this agreement concerning freedom of movement.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  And then about Dobrinja, Valentin is asking

12     about Dobrinja.  What is Pelko saying in response to that?

13        A.   He says that it would not be a good idea to assemble anywhere

14     that close to the front line.  In my opinion, this is a paradox.  You had

15     front lines all over Sarajevo so there was no place that was safe from a

16     front line.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  Unlike this assembling that was announced,

18     how did you view the football matches that were happening close to the

19     collection point in Dobrinja?

20        A.   Obviously each of the positions were made to fit respective

21     needs.  Whenever there was no need for political or media manipulation,

22     whenever there was no need to avoid a certain agreement, then Dobrinja

23     was no good.  But when one had to organise a football match then the

24     exact location of a front line did not matter at all and it proved to be,

25     after all, a perfectly appropriate location.

Page 32436

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this for

 3     identification until a complete translation of this document is received.

 4     Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  I have no problem with it being marked for

 7     identification pending translation and further submissions.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll do that.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D2777, Your Honours.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Just to note I think Ms. Edgerton made that note

13     indicating further submissions, but in the past sometimes we've admitted

14     documents MFI simply pending the translation because of a full

15     understanding of what the document was about.  In this case and I believe

16     in some of the future matters, the MFI also includes the possibility of

17     examining the document and then determining whether or not further

18     submissions are necessary regarding admissibility.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Your point is taken.

20             Before we take away this document, it's not related to any

21     subject matter, but, Mr. Indjic, how shall we spell your last name in

22     Latin?  Is it -- I saw here I-n-d-z-i-c, but I was also looking at your

23     statement, which writes -- which reads as I-n-d-j-i-c.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the spelling in this

25     document is inaccurate.  It's the other spelling that you mentioned that

Page 32437

 1     is actually correct.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D06522

 4     brought up in e-court.  To see what UNPROFOR had to say about this same

 5     meeting.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This is the same meeting of the joint military working group on

 8     the 31st of March, 1993?

 9        A.   Yes, it is the same meeting.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you please read item 2 and tell us whether you believe

13     UNPROFOR understood your position properly?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where it says "Serbs" --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, did you say this is an UNPROFOR

17     document?  And we have no English version.  Is it the case, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We couldn't track one down, but yes

19     it's an UNPROFOR report.  There must be an original, but I was unable to

20     find it.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So since you are not giving evidence yourself, I

22     would like to hear the confirmation from the witness.  In the future you

23     should ask the question to the witness to confirm your submission.  Do

24     you confirm that, Mr. Indjic, this is an UNPROFOR document?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's obvious if you look at

Page 32438

 1     the header.  It's an UNPROFOR document.  After each meeting all of the

 2     parties involved would receive a translation of the minutes by UNPROFOR

 3     to keep for their own files.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.  Just a second.

 6             Yes, Mr. Indjic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to answer because I

 8     heard Mr. Karadzic's question so I might as well answer it.  In item 2

 9     UNPROFOR reflects the position taken by the Serbs.  It reads:

10             "The Serbs will not have any restrictions.  Everyone is to be

11     allowed to move about freely."

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you very much.  Was UNPROFOR's interpretation of the

14     position you took at that meeting correct?

15        A.   Yes, it was.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this document, or

17     rather, have it marked for identification, same as the previous one?

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D2778, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Do you not have English version in your possession,

22     Ms. Edgerton?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  If I'd been aware of one, I would have offered it,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 32439

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, during your liaison activity, did you receive

 3     any information about the fighting in 1993, specifically around

 4     Srebrenica?

 5        A.   What I can remember is that I was, I believe, accompanying

 6     General Mladic at a meeting with, I believe -- perhaps it was

 7     General Milovanovic.  It was one of these two, someone from the

 8     Main Staff.  At this meeting the fighting around Srebrenica at that time

 9     was referenced, yes.

10        Q.   Were there any meetings that you attended and who were the

11     negotiating parties involved?

12        A.   I think it was this mixed or joint military group and there was

13     an attempt being made to have a cease-fire agreed for all of

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15        Q.   Can you tell us what positions were taken by the opposing

16     parties, or rather, the warring parties on the one hand and the mediators

17     on the other, specifically about Srebrenica and about the cease-fire?

18        A.   The position taken by the Serb side, generally speaking, was that

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina in its entirety was affected by war and that it wasn't

20     appropriate to talk about small-scale cease-fires that only applied to

21     certain limited areas.  Given the overall situation, war raging across

22     the country.  The Muslim side already had, in manner of speaking,

23     Srebrenica in its sights back then and tried to get maximum media

24     exposure for what was going on there so the media were trying to show

25     that everything that was going on there at the time had been planned a

Page 32440

 1     long time ahead.  As a matter of principle the Croats would never put

 2     forward anything at all at any of the meetings.  They would always agree

 3     with the chairperson but every time a meeting was over, they just

 4     continue doing their own thing, promoting their own agenda.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why

 6     the Serb side deemed it unacceptable or why was it more acceptable to

 7     have a cessation of hostilities or a cease-fire throughout all of Bosnia

 8     and why did the Muslims, on the other hand, deem it more appropriate or

 9     more acceptable to have limited extent of cease-fires in particular areas

10     that they found convenient?

11        A.   We're talking about 1993.  No state of war had been declared in

12     Republika Srpska.  Why?  By doing that, we clearly demonstrated our own

13     position.  We did not want a war.  We did not want cease-fires.  We

14     wanted for the war to end and for all hostilities to cease throughout the

15     territory.  That would have put an end to the war.  As for limited

16     extent, small-scale cease-fires, in our view that would not have

17     contributed to ending the war but rather to drawing the whole thing out

18     and prolonging the situation and that would also help some forces to

19     consolidate.

20        Q.   Who exactly?

21        A.   Well, those requesting such cease-fires.  Specifically we're

22     talking about Srebrenica, in that case we're referring to the Muslim

23     forces there.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have a 1D20177 in

Page 32441

 1     e-court, please.  There is a translation available.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, please have a look.  Were you shown this

 4     document during proofing?  And can you briefly tell us what the document

 5     is about?

 6        A.   Yes, I was shown this document during proofing.  I remember the

 7     meeting.  It's one of the meetings, high-level meetings, the only such

 8     high-level meeting that was held in the presence of delegations from

 9     Croatia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  The principal purpose of

10     this meeting was to try and find a way to put an end to hostilities

11     throughout the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I want to know about an assertion made there by

16     General Milovanovic.  It's line 2, General Milovanovic is quoted as

17     saying:

18             "General Milovanovic told him that the cease-fire is already

19     costing us over 50.000 [as interpreted] dead and that there should be a

20     cease-fire throughout the theatre of war.  How come there is a cease-fire

21     on and still so many lives are lost?

22        A.   The corps conducted some analysis showing that the greatest

23     losses were suffered -- occurred during cease-fires because people took

24     some agreements at face value, and as a result they would relax.  And

25     then the other side violated the cease-fire as a result of which we

Page 32442

 1     suffered casualties.

 2        Q.   What exactly did you know about these cease-fire violations?

 3        A.   That depended on the level at which cease-fires were agreed and

 4     whether there were groups organised to monitor the implementation of

 5     cease-fires.  So any insight I had into these violations depended on

 6     these circumstances.  From personal experience I can say that I do not

 7     remember a single agreed cease-fire that was fully complied with

 8     throughout the agreed time-period.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And in from -- notice and protests with respect to

10     violations of cease-fires, would they be sent through you as the liaison

11     officer?  Or were they sent directly by fax to the addressees?

12        A.   Well, here I have to make a distinction.  There were different

13     levels and there were two periods.  At first, in the first period, the

14     only office of the liaison officer that was active was in Lukavica and

15     most of the correspondence went through that office in Lukavica.

16     However, very soon after that - and I believe that this was in late

17     1993 - UNPROFOR established their own liaison office at Pale so that the

18     communications went from that office, the communications that related to

19     the Main Staff.  In other words, they didn't go through the office at

20     Lukavica.

21        Q.   Thank you.  The violations of cease-fires in Sarajevo, was that

22     something that you had more insight into if they didn't go toward the

23     Main Staff, but rather brigades and corps?

24        A.   Well, for the most part yes because it was our duty to take

25     excerpts from daily combat reports that related to cease-fires.  We were

Page 32443

 1     supposed to reformulate them and inform the UNPROFOR command thereof.

 2        Q.   What was the response of the UNPROFOR command when we lodged our

 3     protests?

 4        A.   We seldom had any response.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document,

 6     please.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, just related to that document, before

 8     we go too far in the transcript, there's a citation at page 59, lines 8

 9     and 9, and Dr. Karadzic says at line 2 General Milovanovic is quoted as

10     saying something to the effect of the cease-fire had already cost us over

11     50.000 dead.  And I don't see that anywhere in the document or my

12     translation of the document.  So I wonder if there should be a transcript

13     correction or what Dr. Karadzic was actually quoting.  It could be my

14     oversight, but just to make the inquiry.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 2, toward the top of the

16     page in Serbian I said -- and I read out.  Here, we can see it here and I

17     will read it out now:

18             "General Milovanovic told us that so far we've had over 50 dead

19     as a result of this cease-fire ..."

20             And if the transcript does not reflect that, the document does.

21             That's paragraph 3 in the English version.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but the transcript said "50.000."

23             Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit this.

Page 32444

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2779, Your Honours.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, can you tell us were there any attempts to

 4     demilitarise Sarajevo and what were the positions of the warring parties,

 5     especially the Serbian and the Muslim sides on demilitarisation of

 6     Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Well, our general position was that a demilitarisation of

 8     Sarajevo would be a great contribution to putting an end to the war in

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina and especially that it would -- that it would

10     provide for a far smaller number of casualties.  Now, the

11     demilitarisation of Sarajevo was something that was always mentioned by

12     the Serb side and one of the specific examples, such examples, was the

13     meeting at the Sarajevo airport following a resolution by the UN that --

14     whereby the protected areas of Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde were

15     established, which lasted about 48 hours, the meeting, and at this

16     meeting General Mladic pleaded that Sarajevo be included in that

17     agreement so that the war could be stopped.  However, these proposals

18     were never accepted by the Muslim side because it was clear that a

19     possible demilitarisation of Sarajevo would mean an end to the war and

20     that Sarajevo as the martyr town was very important for the Muslims in

21     this war.  And whoever it was who decided when the war -- who could

22     decide when the war would end did not allow this issue to be discussed.

23     To me it would have been far more useful to demilitarise Sarajevo rather

24     than Srebrenica.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 32445

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now pull up 1D6520 in

 2     e-court.  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you recall this meeting, Lieutenant-Colonel, and could you

 5     tell us who attended the meeting on behalf of the VRS?  You can see that

 6     under "participants."

 7        A.   I see that this was a meeting of the joint military group.  I

 8     already explained that this was at the General Staff level and we can see

 9     that on the Serb side it was attended by General Gvero, Colonel Tolimir

10     at the time, and myself.

11        Q.   What about the Muslim and Croatian sides?

12        A.   It was Colonel Divjak on behalf of the Muslims and Mr. Muslimovic

13     and the commander of the 4th Military Group on behalf of the Croatians.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page,

16     please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Please just take a look at this.  We don't have to read this out.

19     Your English is good enough.  Can you just tell us what the first and

20     second paragraphs deal with.

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Indjic, I'm not sure if we are receiving the

23     translation.  Could you kindly repeat your answer.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've said, we can see from this

25     document that the parties had an interest to declare Sarajevo a safe

Page 32446

 1     area.  I'm not going to go through the whole document, but I do know what

 2     the basic distinction in the approaches of the various parties was.  The

 3     Muslim party insisted on pulling out artillery outside Sarajevo, whereas

 4     they themselves were not prepared to demilitarise their own infantry in

 5     Sarajevo.  So these were two quite contradictory positions that could not

 6     lead, that were not conducive to any kind of solution.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please read out the comment here on the

 9     Serb interests, the comment by the UN, and is this a -- an accurate

10     reflection of what the Serb side advocated at that meeting?  It's toward

11     the centre of the page.

12        A.   Yes, I can see that comment and this is a fair assessment of both

13     parties, the positions of both parties.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

16     document, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be received.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2780, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, did you attend meetings or were you aware of

22     any meetings in the course of 1994 where the removal of heavy weapons was

23     discussed, the removal of heavy weapons from the town itself?

24        A.   I did attend a number of such meetings.

25        Q.   As far as you know, what was in effect the essence of these

Page 32447

 1     agreements?

 2        A.   The essence of the agreement on the grouping of heavy weapons was

 3     to provide the basic conditions for long-term cease-fire in the Sarajevo

 4     region.  An additional protocol to the agreement on the control of

 5     weapons implied the cessation of all other combat activities in this

 6     period.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we kindly ask that the witness move back

10     from the microphone a bit.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Indjic, could you kindly move back from the

12     microphone a bit.

13             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I would like to mention the

16     Prosecution document P2120 which is a document dealing with the agreement

17     on the grouping of heavy weaponry.

18        Q.   As far as you know, was this grouping of heavy weapons ever

19     implemented as agreed?  Were they grouped in these five areas that were

20     mentioned here?  We can see that there were five of them mentioned, they

21     were Lukavica, Mokro, Blagovac, Blazuj and Radava?

22        A.   Yes, the weapons, artillery weapons, were grouped in these

23     locations.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have Exhibit P1641 for

25     just a brief moment.

Page 32448

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And I would like to ask you to explain a position there of the

 3     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  Please take a look at paragraph 1 that deals

 4     with -- actually, it's a proposal to extricate artillery and then there's

 5     a proposal to the Main Staff.  Could you please just read out the first

 6     paragraph.  Read it to yourself and then tell us what it deals with.

 7        A.   I quote:

 8             "With the aim of issuing a decision and giving an approval for

 9     the procedure of setting aside artillery according to the request of

10     UNPROFOR, we are sending you the proposal that we consider to be a

11     solution and which enables promptness in work.  Upon the implementation

12     of this proposal, the SRK forces would not suffer any damages and would

13     not be left without equipment since we would use a diversionary tactic to

14     set aside the equipment that is out of order and for which we do not have

15     sufficient quantities of ammunition."

16        Q.   Now, please tell us, what was it that prompted the author of this

17     proposal, General Milosevic, to come up with this kind of proposal.  What

18     was the reason for this caution on his part?

19        A.   Well, we can see that this is a document from February 1994, so

20     we've already had two years of war behind us.  There were numerous

21     violations of various agreements which led to an atmosphere of

22     suspiciousness towards the other party.  Now, this proposal, in fact,

23     seeks to avoid a fair implementation of the agreement.  And the purpose

24     of that or the objective would be to avoid decreasing the

25     combat-readiness of the VRS in case it was required.

Page 32449

 1        Q.   Thank you.  What date do we see on this document and is it

 2     correct that the agreement had been reached on the 16th, or rather,

 3     18th of February, 1994?  In other words, did this proposal come before

 4     the agreement itself?

 5        A.   I cannot answer that with certainty.  I have to see that

 6     document -- I have to see the agreement and the date on it.  I see that

 7     the date on this document is 10 February, but I cannot really recall on

 8     what day the agreement itself was reached.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  While we still have this document here, can I ask you

10     was this proposal by General Milosevic accepted and implemented?

11        A.   I know that it wasn't.

12        Q.   Were his concerns founded and what -- on what were they founded?

13     What was the basis for them?

14        A.   As I've --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.

16             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps the question could be rephrased because I

18     don't see how, based on this, the witness is able to read

19     General Milosevic's mind.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Probably -- is the objection related to the last

21     part of the question what are the -- what was the basis for them?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I can rephrase it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  My understanding was Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Karadzic

25     was asking the reason for the refusal.  Probably you can rephrase your

Page 32450

 1     question.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  First I asked whether and on

 3     the basis of what, or rather, what the reasons were for the caution on

 4     the part of General Milovanovic and whether life actually showed that

 5     this was founded, that his concern was founded.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can answer.  As I've

 7     already said, these were conditions where there was general lack of

 8     confidence.  That's number one.  Number two, the balance of forces in the

 9     Sarajevo theatre was maintained because the VRS, or the

10     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, had an advantage in artillery, whereas the

11     Muslim side had an advantage in infantry.  Now, placing the

12     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps under control would bring us into a weaker

13     position vis-ā-vis the Muslim side.  Now that this concern was justified,

14     we can see from the fact that the war continued long after this date.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  P2120 says the 16th of February and I believe that

17     the agreement was only signed on the 17th or the 18th.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't know if we're moving on to another

20     document now, Your Honours, but I just feel I should put on the record

21     that this document which we're discussing, P1641, wasn't even a belatedly

22     notified document.  That's a brand new document that has been brought up

23     in the examination-in-chief.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document has been admitted.

Page 32451

 1     However, I failed to notify the Prosecution, but this has been admitted

 2     as one of their documents.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the fact that the document was

 4     admitted earlier on has nothing to do with your obligation to notify the

 5     Prosecution of your usage.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but believe me the

 7     pace is frantic and it's difficult to keep up with everything, as you can

 8     see.  Is it sufficient for everyone else involved for me to say that

 9     P2120 dated the 16th, so 16 days after this proposal, although the

10     agreement was signed on the 17th or possibly 18th of February.  That is

11     for the purposes of orientation.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We can move on.  It's ...

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, are you familiar with --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  Sorry to interrupt, Dr. Karadzic.  There's just

17     one thing I wanted to clarify with the witness.

18             Colonel, you said earlier that the Muslims had an advantage in

19     infantry.  By that do you mean a numerical advantage or an advantage

20     by -- for other means, such as better weaponry?  Better training?  Or was

21     it a mixture of both?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Numerical advantage.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I press on?

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, were you familiar with the progress of the

Page 32452

 1     negotiations and how all these things were being implemented regarding

 2     the exclusion area, the total exclusion area within a radius of

 3     20 kilometres surrounding the city for heavy weapons and artillery?

 4        A.   Yes.  I was a member of the delegation doing the negotiations and

 5     was personally in charge of co-ordinating activities regarding the

 6     grouping of these weapons.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Were the Muslims too under an obligation to comply

 8     with this 20-kilometre radius surrounding the city itself and therefore

 9     to pull out all of their heavy weaponry from that area?

10        A.   Yes, the other side was also under an obligation to comply with

11     that.  Nonetheless, we must keep in mind Sarajevo's peculiar

12     configuration.  The lie of the land there means that in the built-up

13     parts of Sarajevo they had no place that they could leave those weapons

14     and still remain in keeping with the parameter, the radius.  So they had

15     to take those heavy weapons to Butmir and Hrasnica.

16        Q.   You're talking about the grouping of weapons.  And what about

17     weapons being removed from the 20-kilometre radius, was that also a

18     commitment that they undertook under the terms of that particular

19     agreement?

20        A.   Yes, that also applied to the commitment they undertook to pull

21     out the heavy weapons.  If we're talking about a 20-kilometre radius that

22     means there are no heavy weapons left in Sarajevo itself.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Was the Muslim side acting in keeping with this

24     agreement?

25        A.   Everything that happened in the war later on and the use of

Page 32453

 1     artillery at a later stage in the conflict by the Muslim side clearly

 2     demonstrates that they failed to comply with the terms of that agreement.

 3        Q.   And what about any violations of that agreement that was reached

 4     by the Muslims?  How did the Serb side respond?  What could they do by

 5     way of response?

 6        A.   I do apologise, sir.  I don't think I understand your question.

 7        Q.   Did you have occasion to see for yourself that the Muslims indeed

 8     were violating this agreement and what did the Serbs do by way of

 9     response?

10        A.   We could raise objections with the UNPROFOR command because of

11     this non-compliance, but our own artillery weapons had been pulled out

12     and we couldn't reply in kind, so to speak.  Nevertheless, we used what

13     was available to fire back.

14        Q.   How did UNPROFOR respond to these violations and to your own

15     objections?

16        A.   In my personal view, UNPROFOR had very few resources that they

17     could actually use and, indeed, very little authority to impose in order

18     to keep these violations from occurring.  So their role basically boiled

19     down to conveying our information to the other side in terms of simple

20     feedback.  That was the extent of it.

21        Q.   And what was the position taken by the Main Staff of the VRS and

22     the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in terms of our relations with

23     UNPROFOR and in terms of incidents occurring between our soldiers and

24     UNPROFOR?

25        A.   I have to say, we were not too happy to have UNPROFOR there.  Our

Page 32454

 1     impression from the outset was that they were siding with the other

 2     party.  Nevertheless, we undertook a professional commitment to build up

 3     relations with UNPROFOR at all levels that were nothing but fair and

 4     proper.  Our foremost priority was to ensure the safety of UNPROFOR.  If

 5     there were any incidents that left UNPROFOR soldiers at risk, such

 6     incidents would invariably be immediately investigated and any

 7     perpetrators were punished.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D06518, please --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, shall we take a

10     break now?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll take no more

12     than two minutes to deal with this document.  Perhaps it might be a good

13     idea to do that before the break.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, very well.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D06518, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Could you briefly tell us about this document, what is it about

18     and tell us in your own words.  One look should be sufficient for you to

19     see what it is about.

20        A.   This is a daily combat report.  When there are combat operations

21     going on there would be several such reports submitted each day.  We see

22     that this is exactly such a period.  There were several such daily

23     reports because, you see, that reflected in the heading their situation

24     at 1700 hours.  So one of the elements included in these reports was

25     about the situation on the ground and one of the mandatory features would

Page 32455

 1     be a description of UNPROFOR activities.  So based on this we see that

 2     the military observers are still outside the technical repair centre in

 3     Hadzici.  So this is not what I was alluding to at the beginning of my

 4     evidence today.  It's not -- what I mean when I was talking about the

 5     intelligence activities pursued by certain UNPROFOR members, or indeed

 6     their attempts to gain entry to certain facilities that had not been

 7     previously agreed.  And then if you go to paragraph 2 you see a

 8     description of -- a communication between General Soubirou and myself.

 9     Unfortunately I have to say that this was a highly unpleasant situation

10     because I was treated in an exceptionally unprofessional manner by a

11     French general who hated me because I had shown him up for what he was in

12     terms of his role in the tunnel being dug underneath the Sarajevo

13     airport.

14        Q.   Page 2, please, there was something exceptional that happened at

15     about 1725.  That's paragraph 2.

16        A.   This paragraph reflects -- is an incident that occurred involving

17     a soldier who for unknown reasons activated a grenade in the physical

18     proximity to UNPROFOR soldiers.  So this person was now being brought in

19     and questioned.  That is the soldier who put the lives of UNPROFOR

20     members at risk.

21        Q.   Can you give us a brief assessment.  You talked about how

22     General Soubirou treated you.  How would you generally assess his

23     treatment of the Serb side and do you think his impartiality was

24     affected?

25        A.   What I'm offering here is my private opinion based, however, on

Page 32456

 1     my knowledge of his actions at the time.  I think the things he did were

 2     unprofessional.  I think he was not neutral and had a definite bias in

 3     favour of the Muslims.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please go to the last page

 5     of this document.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   If you can just tell us what this is about where it says

 8     cease-fire related duties.

 9        A.   I do have to give you a breakdown of this for -- on this for you

10     to understand.  It's about engineering work.  The greatest problem that

11     we faced during cease-fires was the fact that the Muslim forces used

12     these reprieves to take territory by means of engineering work.  They

13     would simply gain ground on us by using their engineering people, and

14     because a cease-fire was on we couldn't prevent them from doing that by

15     opening fire.  We kept raising this with UNPROFOR, pleading with them to

16     put a stop to that kind of activity; however, to no avail.  UNPROFOR did

17     nothing about that.

18        Q.   Thank you very much.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I would like to

20     tender this document for admission and then we must take our break.

21     Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  D2781, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, before we break, I have a brief

25     question for you which is about the accused's motion for safe conduct for

Page 32457

 1     General Vasiljevic.  The motion does not provide the witness's country of

 2     residence.  I wonder whether you can inform the Chamber of the country

 3     where he currently resides in public session.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  It's Serbia.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             We'll have a break for half an hour -- no, I'm sorry, for

 7     three-quarters of an hour and resume at 20 past 1.00.

 8                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, did you know anything about sniping and the

14     charges for sniping of civilians?  What was the position of the Serb side

15     in that respect?

16        A.   For clarification I need to say - and that is also in the

17     statement that was admitted into evidence, in my statement - now, if all

18     of those cases of sniping deaths were taken as being true, then there

19     wouldn't have been any other casualties in Sarajevo other than casualties

20     of sniping.  So first of all, as a professional, military professional, I

21     have to say that one can state that had there been sniping and had

22     someone been hit by a sniper rifle bullet, there would have to be a

23     medical examination in order to establish whether the bullet was actually

24     a sniper bullet or not because that kind of bullet is different in weight

25     to the regular bullet.  Now, I mention this because all infantry fire was

Page 32458

 1     referred to as sniping.  Now, accepting -- even if we were to accept the

 2     misunderstanding and the misconceptions about sniping, the Serb side was

 3     always -- always expressed its readiness to come to any agreement that

 4     would lead to a cease-fire, including an agreement on sniping that would

 5     actually make sniping impossible by either side.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any attempts to limit or confine sniping

 7     activities outside of this general agreement on a cease-fire?

 8        A.   There were requests and calls for a separate agreement on

 9     sniping, irrespective of a cessation of hostilities or cease-fire

10     agreements, a special agreement that would totally exclude sniping

11     because sniping in key locations was the greatest threat to the civilian

12     population on either side and this is the reason why many anti-sniping

13     obstacles were placed.

14        Q.   Thank you.  What was the position of the Serb side on such

15     agreements?  Was it in favour or against and was it in favour of

16     compliance with such agreements?

17        A.   Our position was clear.  We were absolutely in favour of such

18     agreements, primarily because that would have worked in our favour,

19     because sniping was, and this is certain, primarily used by the Muslim

20     side and abused as well.  When I say "abused," I can clarify the role of

21     the Seva [phoen] group and the killings of UNPROFOR members as well as

22     one's own people.

23        Q.   When you say for the most part used by the Muslim side, could you

24     please explain that because there is a perception here that the Serbs

25     were on the hills and the Muslims were in a subordinate position.  So how

Page 32459

 1     did that work in terms of sniping activities?

 2        A.   Well, perhaps the easiest way to understand this is to provide

 3     you some examples.  I will give you the example of the crossing at the

 4     Mis store on Grbavica 1 -- in Grbavica 1 settlement.  I can say that at

 5     least 20 civilians were hit at that crossing by a sniper that was from a

 6     building on the Muslim side of the town.  The second example is the

 7     killing of civilians near the national museum, near the

 8     Holiday Inn hotel, where a container for -- as a protection against

 9     sniping was placed.  This example was so obvious because the soldier had

10     been hit from -- laterally, in other words, from the side that was under

11     the control of the Muslims.  But nevertheless, the Serb side was

12     automatically accused of this incident as well.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, this or other sniping activities against

14     UNPROFOR members, were they ever investigated and was it ever established

15     and clarified who the culprit was?

16        A.   Well, unfortunately there is a dual situation, as it were, here.

17     After certain incidents thanks to our preparedness and readiness to allow

18     an inspection of our positions, for instance, in the situation where this

19     French soldier was killed, there were two UNPROFOR commissions that came

20     and I went to this infamous red building at Grbavica together with them

21     on two occasions, and we went through every room of the building and we

22     tried to establish where the firing could have come from in respect of or

23     in relation to the direction where the killing occurred.  We looked at

24     all the holes from which the firing could have been, and it was

25     established by both these commissions that it couldn't -- that the fire

Page 32460

 1     could not have come from the Serb side, but then three days later the

 2     Serbs were accused of that action.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  What was the position of the Serb side on

 4     investigations to be conducted by UNPROFOR or the other party and also on

 5     the request that the Serb part also participate in investigations that

 6     were in the area under the control of the BiH?

 7        A.   Well, aware of the fact that we were declared the bad guys from

 8     the very start, our position was that we should co-operate to the best of

 9     our abilities and to allow investigations whenever there was a request

10     for an investigation.  Now, as for major disasters, I can't call them

11     incidents, but the major disasters, such as Markale I and Markale II, the

12     Serb side was immediately ready to have Joint Commissions established in

13     order to determine what exactly had happened.  And generally our requests

14     in that respect were refused, declined, because they claimed that they

15     could not guarantee for the safety of the members of that commission --

16     those commissions, but in fact the true reason was that they did not want

17     the truth to come out.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up in

20     e-court 65 ter 09658.  65 ter 09658.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you see your name here and are you aware of this document?

23        A.   Yes, I see this.  This is a document relating to continued

24     implementation of the measures arising from the anti-sniping agreement

25     that had been signed, and it implied that there should be a liaison group

Page 32461

 1     established that would include the so-called BH army, the VRS, and the

 2     UNPROFOR, that could then respond to any sniping activities quickly.  But

 3     as far as I can recall, such a group was never established.

 4        Q.   Do you know anything, Lieutenant-Colonel, about why this never

 5     materialised, which side was blocking it?

 6        A.   I believe that the Muslim side was not ready to send its own

 7     representative.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

10     document, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2782, Your Honours.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, do you remember our withdrawal from

15     Bjelasnica and Igman that had been captured previously and do you know

16     what the regime that was put in place at Igman and Bjelasnica was after

17     that?

18        A.   Unfortunately, I remember that very well.  I participated in the

19     negotiations at the Sarajevo airport personally and General Milovanovic

20     headed our delegation and signed the agreement on the demilitarisation of

21     the areas of Igman and Bjelasnica, Mounts Igman and Bjelasnica.  Now,

22     this agreement was, in fact, provoked by the Muslim side because they

23     wanted to prevent their total collapse because the

24     Army of Republika Srpska was some 100 metres away from the point where

25     the link-up forces from Hadzici and Krupa would be.  However, this

Page 32462

 1     agreement was not implemented or complied with by the Muslims.  In other

 2     words, the area was not demilitarised.  The French battalion that was at

 3     the airport was responsible for the control of that area and they were

 4     supposed to oversee the implementation of the agreement; however, that

 5     had never happened.  And thanks to the fact that there was no

 6     demilitarisation, one of the greatest crimes by the Muslim side was

 7     committed because they used this unprotected, undemilitarised area to

 8     attack a position of the VRS where -- and they killed on that occasion 20

 9     VRS soldiers, of whom four were unarmed nurses.  All these people were

10     killed in their sleep.

11        Q.   Thank you.  When was the demilitarisation and when did this crime

12     occur?

13        A.   Well, it's hard for me to recall this as I sit here, the exact

14     date, but it's quite certain that this crime occurred after the period

15     when the demilitarisation was supposed to happen.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D06521, please,

18     in e-court.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you know this document?  Did you see it at the time or have

21     you seen it perhaps during proofing and what does it deal with?

22        A.   I was shown this document during proofing and -- but I'm aware of

23     the events described there.  The chronology here speaks of our

24     communications between the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the

25     French Battalion, Battalion 5, who were controlling the Igman and

Page 32463

 1     Bjelasnica areas for the purpose of the final demilitarisation of that

 2     area.  It is clear from this document that members of the French

 3     battalion -- battalions are being warned that Muslim forces are carrying

 4     out combat operations from the zone that was supposed to be

 5     demilitarised.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  At 9.40 here we see that the liaison officer reports

 7     that there is several casualties.  And then can we see your name in the

 8     first couple of paragraphs?

 9        A.   Well, yes.  The entire communication, actually, is a reference to

10     my actions.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you please look at the penultimate paragraph, 1435, what does

15     it say there?

16        A.   Well, it says here that the Chief of Staff confirms that there

17     are 20 bodies and that some of them were mutilated.

18        Q.   Mutilated?

19        A.   Yes, mutilated.

20        Q.   Does that mean that UNPROFOR actually checked your reports and is

21     this what they found?

22        A.   Well, yes.  This is the Chief of Staff of the UNPROFOR command

23     and this is what they have -- after they have verified our reports.  And

24     there is also, I believe, a video-clip entitled Catlaj [phoen], some 20

25     minutes long, which shows the bodies.

Page 32464

 1        Q.   Does it say further or could you tell us how these people were

 2     killed and by what?

 3        A.   Well, most of them had their throats slit or were killed with

 4     some other cold weapon such as an axe or so.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  What did UNPROFOR do after they verified that this

 6     crime had actually been committed?

 7        A.   Personally, I don't know that any measures were taken against the

 8     Muslim side by UNPROFOR.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

11     document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2783, Your Honours.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, can you tell us how our withdrawal and the

16     abuse of that withdrawal reflected on the situation among our people and

17     specifically within the ranks of our army?

18        A.   There was a pronounced lack of trust and the war was dragging on.

19     For that reason, our withdrawal was seen by most people as a form of

20     defeat.  People failed to accept this for what it was.  Nonetheless,

21     there was certain agreements that were signed.  It was no matter for any

22     of us to personally agree or disagree.  These simply had to be complied

23     with.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  What about the Muslim side, did they ever

25     all together leave the area which they were never supposed to take in the

Page 32465

 1     first place once it was handed over to UNPROFOR?

 2        A.   According to my intelligence, the Bjelasnica and Igman areas were

 3     never fully demilitarised by the end of the war, which means that the

 4     agreement had not been complied with.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D060515.  1D06515.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you please tell the Chamber who produced this document and

 8     what is this about?

 9        A.   The header shows that this is a BH army document, specifically

10     the 1st Corps command, minutes from a meeting held at the airport, a

11     meeting with the Serb side which they refer to here as the Chetniks, so

12     obviously it's not the Croats that we're looking at here.  Attending the

13     meeting were Cedo Sladoje, chief of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, Chief of

14     Staff, and myself.  It was about the implementation of the

15     demilitarisation agreement of the Igman and Bjelasnica areas.  The

16     document clearly shows that the demilitarisation process was not fully

17     implemented by this time.

18        Q.   We're talking about January 1995; right?

19        A.   Yes, specifically the 5th of January, 1995.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  May this please be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2784, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you know about the position taken by the president of the

Page 32466

 1     republic, that means me at the time, regarding the passage of

 2     humanitarian convoys en route for Sarajevo?

 3        A.   The position taken was perfectly clear if you consider everything

 4     that was going on across the area.  I never personally heard anything

 5     from you on that count, but it was perfectly clear.  There was always the

 6     demand that nobody should try and stand in the way of humanitarian aid

 7     being shipped to civilians.  One had to make sure it got there.  So we

 8     had a whole number of these organisations, Merhamet, Caritas,

 9     Dobritor [phoen].  These were humanitarian organisations and they were

10     assisted in every way in their efforts to deliver aid to civilians.

11     There was even the need for co-ordination, obviously, so a special

12     headquarters was set up to help these civilians with regard to the

13     humanitarian situation.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who on my behalf or on behalf of the

15     Presidency dealt with the issue of humanitarian convoys and co-operation

16     with these humanitarian institutions ensuring safe passage for the

17     convoys?

18        A.   I think if memory serves it was the late Nikola Koljevic.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Given the fact that convoys would sometimes pass

20     through several times unhampered, what was the role played by the

21     Main Staff of the VRS in terms of approving these convoys?

22        A.   As I said earlier on, the role played by the Main Staff was quite

23     significant because there were procedures in place when approval was

24     granted for each of the convoys and when appropriate checks were made

25     because these convoys were passing through the theatre of war, where

Page 32467

 1     combat operations were underway.  I explained all these procedures in one

 2     of my previous replies.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D06516, please.  In e-court.

 4     Thank you.  1D06516.  Unfortunately, the translation of this document has

 5     not been completed yet.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Who produced this document?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please scroll down to the

 9     bottom of the page in order to see that.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It bears my signature.  Having

11     received a request for a convoy to be allowed through, I submitted this

12     request to the Main Staff for approval, proposing also that the convoy

13     should be allowed to pass and that approval should be granted for the

14     15th of November, 1994.  And what follows is your own reply.  At my

15     level, I didn't have the authority to approve this or, indeed, to ban

16     this convoy from passing through.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Okay.  Let's go back to paragraph 1.  Who submitted or who had

19     sent the request that you asked for the Main Staff to approve?

20        A.   In the first paragraph you see that the request came from you,

21     and then based on an agreement that was reached by you and Mr. Akashi,

22     approval was to be granted for general supplies convoy to be approved for

23     Kakanj, specifically the Catholic school there and the canteen.  It was

24     about furniture being shipped to that area.

25        Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 32468

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be MFI'd, please.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D2785, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  If my colleague Mr. Reid can release 65 ter number

 7     24459, that's a document that I was fortunately able to have translated

 8     overnight, as I wasn't able to read it.  And I would have risen earlier,

 9     Your Honours, and my apologies.  I wasn't able to locate that in my

10     e-mails until this moment.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then would you agree that this document

12     would be admitted in full?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be done.  Thank you,

15     Ms. Edgerton.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you on behalf of the Defence

17     team.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, given your post, were you in a position to

20     follow the cease-fire negotiations?  Were there any cease-fire agreements

21     reached between the Serbs and the Muslims?

22        A.   Cease-fire agreements were frequently signed.  Essentially one of

23     the responsibilities included going through the liaison officers HQ in

24     order to analyse these cease-fire agreements and forward the results of

25     our analysis to both UNPROFOR and the other side in the conflict.

Page 32469

 1        Q.   What was the fate of such agreements?  Did they ever take effect

 2     and how long were they complied with?

 3        A.   Based on my recollection, which is what I said earlier on, none

 4     of these agreements were actually complied with by the dead-line set out

 5     in the document itself.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  65 ter 15433 in e-court, please.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you personally play a role in the -- any of the follow-ups to

10     these agreements and the implementation of these agreements?

11        A.   I see a document by the Main Staff of the VRS on the screen,

12     ordering a total cease-fire, a cessation of all hostilities, pursuant to

13     an agreement reached on the 31st of December, 1994.  As far as I

14     remember, our responsibility was to produce daily reports to show whether

15     agreements were complied with and to what extent exactly.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Paragraph 3, the first sentence, what does it say there?  What is

20     being ordered there?

21        A.   "Ensure that all provisions in the agreement are fully and

22     consistently adhered to with regard to the Muslim forces and not

23     implement or observe the agreement on the cessation of firing activities

24     in the part of the front where we have a border with the armed forces of

25     the NDH and the HR HB until the territories occupied by the joint forces

Page 32470

 1     of the NDH and HR HB are liberated."

 2             Therefore, this is clearly in reference to the two parts.  The

 3     agreement concerning the clashes against the Muslim forces with a total

 4     cessation of hostilities being ordered here and the other part of the

 5     conflict in the Krajina regarding clashes with the regular units of the

 6     Croatian army and the HVO.

 7        Q.   Were there any agreements signed with those parties on possible

 8     cease-fires or anything like that?

 9        A.   No, because representatives of the Croatian army - mind you, I'm

10     not talking about the HVO here, I'm talking about the

11     Army of the Republic of Croatia - being actively involved in the fighting

12     in the Krajina area and those municipalities over there.  They were no

13     parties to any of the agreements that were actually signed.

14        Q.   Paragraph 4, what is being forbidden in the strictest of terms

15     there?

16        A.   "I strictly forbid opening fire and carrying out offensive

17     operations in the front line towards the Muslims ..."  I think it's

18     probably an error here in spelling, "which would violate the agreement

19     reached.  Respond to their possible fire if absolutely necessary and if

20     the lives of combatants and civilians are at peril or if there is a

21     danger of destruction or seizure of combat equipment."

22             So this is a very clear-cut order.  Strict compliance with this

23     agreement is demanded here.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  In relation to this document can you tell

25     us more about what the committees these are that are mentioned here and

Page 32471

 1     were you a member of any of these?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have the Serbian text

 3     pulled up a little and it's also the next page in the English.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To make sure this agreement was

 5     actually acted upon and to make sure it wasn't dead in the water since it

 6     was signed at the highest level.  In each of the corps committees were

 7     set up whose duty it was to monitor the implementation of these

 8     agreements and implementation consistency as well.  I myself was a member

 9     of this committee for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You talked about the Croatian army being involved in the

12     occupation of the western municipalities.  Were UNPROFOR aware of this

13     and was there anything they did about that in terms of preventing a

14     foreign army from occupying Bosnian territory, or rather,

15     Republika Srpska?

16        A.   This was a fact that was definitely well-known to everyone there.

17     I don't know personally whether anything at all was done to prevent this

18     from happening.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted, please?

21     Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2786, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32472

 1        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, in your official capacity, did you ever come

 2     across issues related to supplies, water and electricity, for Sarajevo

 3     specifically regarding both sides?  Did you take part in negotiations

 4     regarding that, so restoring the supply of electricity and water to

 5     Sarajevo?

 6        A.   Yes, quite frequently as a matter of fact.  During the first

 7     stage after the outbreak of war, the electricity and water facilities

 8     were destroyed.  As soon as conditions were in place to have those

 9     repaired and rebuilt, we demanded that steps be taken in that direction.

10     Each time a formal request was submitted, this would normally go through

11     the liaison officer, the simple reason being most of the damage that had

12     occurred was in the area that was between the confrontation lines.  It

13     was necessary, therefore, to use the existing chain of command to order a

14     cease-fire so that the workers could actually go out and get the work

15     done, get the necessary repairs done.

16        Q.   Did UNPROFOR understand which of the parties was actually

17     sabotaging the repair works?

18        A.   As far as I know, the UNPROFOR engineers, so the people who were

19     actually in charge, understood very clearly that the lack of co-operation

20     was to be blamed on the Muslim side for the most part.  We were talking

21     about infrastructure facilities here and that was a vital issue also from

22     a media perspective when trying to construe an image of yourself as a

23     victim.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D6523 in e-court, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32473

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us what this telegram is about, what it

 2     means and what it talks about.

 3        A.   This is a report on a meeting with General Tolimir at Sokolac.  I

 4     attended this meeting.  And aside from other issues, we discussed the

 5     possibility of getting on with infrastructure renewal and repair work in

 6     and around Sarajevo.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to paragraph 3, please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Could you please tell us what Tolimir discusses here.

10        A.   Tolimir says that it's absurd to talk about restoring utilities

11     before a cease-fire is accomplished because whatever is repaired on one

12     day on the next day would be destroyed again because the electric lines

13     were -- ran along the confrontation line right next to it, so it was

14     impossible to work on them.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did the infrastructure system or the infrastructure

16     facilities, were they connected and were there shortages also on the

17     Serbian side, in the Serbian part of Sarajevo?

18        A.   Well, Sarajevo was a large whole before the war, it was one

19     whole, so that the system of infrastructure automatic -- was one whole

20     and automatically a breakdown in one would automatically cause a

21     breakdown in the entire system.

22        Q.   Thank you.  A moment ago you said that the Muslim party had some

23     political benefits or reaped some political advantage from the fact of

24     this breakdown in supply of water and electricity and what was the Serb

25     response to this in the international media?

Page 32474

 1        A.   Well, unfortunately the media were not really very much

 2     interested in trying to establish the situation, what the situation was

 3     like in the Serbian side and to report that there were similar problems

 4     on the Serb side.  For instance, when I moved to Banja Luka I learned

 5     that at the time when the media reported on the major difficulties in

 6     Sarajevo because the power lines were down and there was no electricity,

 7     at that same time Banja Luka had been into a full year almost without any

 8     electric power and there were no reports on that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Lieutenant-Colonel, did you have any impression on

10     the number of flights and the number of convoys that arrived at the

11     airport in Sarajevo on a daily basis without any difficulties?

12        A.   Well, we had a very clear picture of the number of flights and

13     convoys arriving.  Even if we were not reported on each and every flight,

14     we did -- we were informed of the convoys.  But we also had observers who

15     would count the flights arriving at or landing at the Sarajevo airport.

16     So we had that information as well.  Now, as for the convoys that moved

17     in Sarajevo but that did not -- that had not come from the crossing the

18     territory of Republika Srpska, we had no information on them for obvious

19     reasons and we were not responsible for them.

20        Q.   Do you recall how many humanitarian flights and landings at the

21     Sarajevo airport there were on a daily basis?

22        A.   Well, it's hard to give you a figure, but I believe that

23     generally speaking we could say that there were anywhere between five and

24     ten flights a day.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 32475

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 2     document, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2787, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

 6     Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I thank you for your understanding and for your patience.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, Mr. Karadzic.

10             Mr. Indjic, although some part of your evidence was led live but

11     most of the evidence in chief has been admitted into writing.  Now you'll

12     be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,

13     but given the circumstances your cross-examination will be deferred till

14     probably Thursday.  Do you understand that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I apologise for your inconvenience, but can I advise

17     you not to discuss with anybody else about your testimony.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I wonder whether

20     the Prosecution might be ready to start their cross tomorrow because I'm

21     a bit concerned about the witness because he's having some difficulties

22     because of his long stay here.  If that's not possible, let's leave it as

23     it is, but if at all possible for the Prosecution perhaps it would be

24     more convenient for the witness.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, just in fairness to Ms. Edgerton,

Page 32476

 1     we've gone back and forth on this a couple of times.  I'm not precluding

 2     that once she has a chance to consider it, but I think that is a

 3     question, under the circumstances, that's better left to some reflection

 4     and we can get back to the Defence accordingly.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  So my understanding is that Mr. Indjic will

 6     start his cross-examination on Thursday in any event at least?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, absent any arrangements earlier than that,

 8     that's what we would -- at the latest we would ask that he be allowed to

 9     testify 9.00 a.m. on Thursday so we're sure to complete his testimony

10     this week.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Did we hear from you on that suggestion?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  No, not so far but --

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, Mr. Tieger said he would come back to me

14     after having consulted you.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah -- no, you didn't yet and I -- given the pace

16     at which everything has been moving, I didn't ask Ms. Edgerton to address

17     that just yet.  So that's -- that same suggestion is pending.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  But, Your Honours, I'm sure there won't be a

20     problem with that.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's what I wanted to hear.  Thank

22     you, Ms. Edgerton.

23             You may be excused, Mr. Indjic.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 32477

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're waiting for the next

 2     witness I just wanted to add that basically our position on these changes

 3     is that when we are the cause of the problem we are ready to accommodate

 4     the Prosecutor with -- and they constantly accommodated us during their

 5     case in the same way.  So whatever time Ms. Edgerton needs within the

 6     reasonable limitations we're prepared to accommodate.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  We were actually -- we were actually just

 9     discussing the temperature in the courtroom, Your Honour.  It's extremely

10     warm in here today.

11             JUDGE KWON:  They thought that Judge Lattanzi would be in today.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Understood.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR MILOSEVIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.  Please be seated and make

20     yourself comfortable.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, I appreciate the unique status of this

Page 32478

 1     witness, but in conformity with our previous practice, given some

 2     aspects -- given the scope of the -- what I would imagine is the intended

 3     testimony, I would -- and I also appreciate the presence of the witness's

 4     counsel, but it would appear in keeping with our previous practice that

 5     an advisement would be -- would be appropriate.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber prefers to be informed of that notice in

 7     advance in the future.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  And we object to that with respect to this witness

11     because his evidence cannot be --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please put it up a bit.

13     I can't hear very well.  I have difficulty hearing.

14             [In English] Okay, okay.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can discuss it in the presence of the

16     witness.

17             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  My point is that under

19     Rule 90(H) those protections wouldn't apply to this witness because he

20     has already been convicted of the crimes about which he will be speaking,

21     and therefore to tell him that these can be used to incriminate him is

22     not really accurate because he couldn't be prosecuted again for those

23     same events.

24             JUDGE KWON:  This is rather advising of his rights than a warning

25     and if there are matters not covered by the previous trial, the Rule has

Page 32479

 1     room to be applied even theoretically.  But before we proceed further,

 2     for the record I would like the counsel for the witness to introduce

 3     himself.

 4             MR. BOURGON:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

 5     Your Honours, and to everyone in the courtroom.  My name is

 6     Stephane Bourgon and I am here to assist and represent the witness,

 7     General Dragomir Milosevic.  Present with me here in the courtroom this

 8     afternoon, as requested yesterday, my interpreter, in case I have to deal

 9     with the witness during the hearing, Mr. Milan Kunjevic.  And I also have

10     a legal assistant who will be taking notes for me, Mr. Hugo Lagace.

11     Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

13             Mr. Milosevic, before you start giving evidence I would like to

14     draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal.  Maybe you

15     are already aware of this, but under this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may

16     object to answering a question from the accused, the Prosecution, or even

17     the Judges if you believe that your answer will incriminate you.  When I

18     say "incriminate," I mean that something you say may amount to an

19     admission of your guilt for a criminal offence or could provide evidence

20     that you have committed an offence.  However, even if you think your

21     answer will incriminate you and you do not wish to answer the question,

22     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

23     such a case the Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in

24     such a way shall not be used as evidence in other case against you for

25     any offence other than false testimony.  Do you understand what I have

Page 32480

 1     just told you, sir?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  Everything is all

 3     right.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

 5             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General, sir.

 8        A.   Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   Please feel free to remind me when the pause that I make after

10     your answer is too brief to ensure that every word spoken here will make

11     it into the transcript.  Now, if you look at the screen you can see that

12     once my question is complete, there will be a letter A appearing below

13     it.

14             Now, could you please tell us your first and last name and your

15     father's name?

16        A.   Yes.  My name is Dragomir Milosevic.  My father's name is

17     Milorad.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Where were you born and when?

19        A.   I was born in Ub municipality -- my apology, I started earlier.

20     So I was born in Ub municipality in the village of Murgas, the Republic

21     of Serbia, on the 4th of February, 1942.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us something about your background and

23     your education?  Could you tell us what schools and where you attended

24     and completed?

25        A.   I began my schooling in elementary school in the place where I

Page 32481

 1     was born, of course.  I'm talking about the elementary education,

 2     elementary school.  Then I attended the high school or the secondary

 3     school, military secondary school, in Sarajevo.  This was in 1958 to be

 4     more precise.  After completing the secondary military school for a

 5     while, or rather, for two years I served in Banja Luka as a

 6     non-commissioned officer.  At -- in those days, certain cadres could be

 7     sent further on to the military academy for further education.  I was

 8     offered and given this possibility because I met all the conditions.  I

 9     accepted and I signed up or enrolled at the military academy in Belgrade,

10     which lasted four years.  Out of those four years, one, the final year,

11     the senior year, was in Sarajevo.  And this was by way of completing a

12     specialised course.  Once I graduated from the military academy, I was

13     assigned to the garrison in Ljubljana.  Would this be sufficient or would

14     you like me to tell you something about my various appointments?

15        Q.   Well, could you please tell us what your various appointments

16     were and where you served.

17        A.   Very well.  When I arrived in Ljubljana, I was a platoon

18     commander for a while.

19             And soon thereafter I became a company commander.  I stayed at

20     the Ljubljana garrison in Sentilj two years, after which I was selected

21     or perhaps there was a decision made - I don't know exactly what the

22     wording was - but I was reassigned to the school for reserve officers in

23     Bileca.  I assumed that it was observed that I had certain talents to

24     work with -- to work training personnel.  I spent two years in Bileca,

25     where I was platoon commander and company commander.  And I spent an

Page 32482

 1     entire period of five years there.  Following this, I moved to Sarajevo,

 2     where I became a member of a military police battalion that was

 3     established as a unit that was to serve the needs of the 7th Army, the

 4     then-Yugoslav People's Army.  I remained there, or rather, I was first

 5     appointed deputy commander of the military police battalion and

 6     subsequently, after a number -- some time, I can't recall exactly how

 7     much time, I became the military police battalion commander.  In other

 8     words, this was a battalion of the 7th Army.

 9             After that, someone decided that I was now at a point where I had

10     met all these other conditions.  And then I was transferred to Lukavica

11     near Sarajevo to act as the Chief of Staff in the 49th Regiment.  Let me

12     just confirm about all these other things too.  In the meantime I had

13     undergone additional training at Belgrade for a two-year duration.  It's

14     called the higher military academy.  So it was a military political

15     school.  After serving with the 49th Motorised Regiment at Lukavica, I

16     was transferred to the Han Pijesak garrison to serve there as commander

17     of the 216th Mountain Brigade.  I believe this was back in 1988, and then

18     on from that point in time until the war in Sarajevo broke out.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.  Did I understand you correctly, you arrived

20     in Sarajevo when you were 16.  And apart from the time you spent in

21     Ljubljana and apart from your training in Belgrade, all your posts were

22     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, such as Banja Luka and Han Pijesak.  Can you

23     confirm that?

24        A.   Yes, that is entirely right.  All the other posts were in Bosnia

25     and Herzegovina.  I spent more time in Bosnia and Herzegovina than

Page 32483

 1     anywhere else as a matter of fact, apart from the time that I have spent

 2     in The Hague by now of course.

 3        Q.   General, sir, on the 20th of May, 1992, the JNA was withdrawing

 4     from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  What was the choice that you faced at the

 5     time?

 6        A.   It's not really that I had much of a choice.  It was about me

 7     taking a decision, but I know what you mean.  People serving in the JNA

 8     at the time had certain rights and people who were from one of the

 9     republics were free to go back to their own home republic and continue

10     their service there.  But members from Bosnia and Herzegovina obviously

11     were also allowed to stay in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So I'm not entirely

12     clear about this.  How should I interpret the fact that I stayed in

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina?  But I don't think that really is the

14     deal-breaker here.  I don't think it's that important for me to explain

15     really.  It's just a decision that I took.  I was constantly hoping that

16     at some point I would be transferred to Belgrade, though.

17             If I may just add one thing, since the question you asked was

18     quite specific.  I was a brigade commander.  The 216th Brigade stationed

19     at Han Pijesak was subject to a decision taken by the superior command

20     and there was to be mobilisation there back in 1991.  So that was a whole

21     year before the clashes in Sarajevo ever broke out, Sarajevo and the rest

22     of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well.  So the brigade was mobilised.  So it

23     was in a state of semi-combat readiness, so to say, pursuant to this

24     order from our superior command, needless to say.  So during this time I

25     was working with these people, I was training them, I was looking after

Page 32484

 1     them, and they were working with me as well.  So having said and

 2     considered all of that, it would have been perhaps immoral of me to have

 3     gone through all of this with these men and as soon as certain things

 4     happened for me to simply be gone, to up sticks and leave the area,

 5     because these people placed an enormous amount of trust in me, and I did

 6     not want to let them down and make it seem as though I was leaving them

 7     in the lurch.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much, General.  We'll get back to some questions

 9     regarding the war itself.  Were you commended for your work?  Did you

10     receive any medals or awards?

11        A.   Yes.  I can't give you the whole list, to be perfectly frank.  I

12     don't think I'd be able to think back and remember each and every one,

13     you know, like the specific type of medal that I was awarded or, indeed,

14     the names of these medals and commendations.  But I got everything that

15     was due me given my rank and my professional stature at each stage of my

16     career.  My professional assessments were always exceptionally

17     favourable.  It was always outstanding or even particularly outstanding

18     at one point in time.  Sometimes perhaps it would have been wiser to not

19     receive this rating of particularly outstanding because my life might

20     have taken a different course, but I'm just telling you what exactly

21     happened and we can't change the facts.  So that of all these medals and

22     commendations being awarded also during the war in Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina, during the armed conflict there, I remember two specific

24     decorations, the Karadjordje Star, which is a first-grade or second-grade

25     decoration, and also the Milos Obilic medal.  I remember those two.

Page 32485

 1        Q.   One is for exercising command, for setting an example; and the

 2     other is for courage.  Right?

 3        A.   Yes, command and courage, that's true.

 4        Q.   General, I see you have some documents in front of you or what is

 5     that, a note pad?  Let's see what that is and whether perhaps you'd be

 6     allowed to use it.

 7        A.   This is just a blank note pad.  There is nothing in it.  But yes,

 8     I do have some documents here in a folder which I've put together for

 9     myself, just in case I get into a situation where I need to interpret

10     some things, perhaps make assertions or perhaps demonstrate certain

11     things.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  Did you put these together yourself or was

13     there someone who gave you a hand with that?

14        A.   I put them together myself, needless to say, on my own.  You need

15     to keep in mind the fact that I am in prison and the people there were

16     not able to help me with this because they know nothing about this, so I

17     was left to my own devices.  I came up with a plan and I put together

18     everything that I believed might come in handy.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.  Did you perhaps jog your memory with

20     respect to the specific documents that you used when you were producing

21     these notes?

22        A.   Let us try and clarify this.  There were all these documents that

23     were used at my trial.  I have a memory of all these documents,

24     obviously, but when I was preparing for possibly giving evidence I did

25     not exactly have any of these documents physically available to me.  So I

Page 32486

 1     wasn't using physical documents.  I was trying to think back and remember

 2     and not really tie myself down to a specific detail but to think more in

 3     general terms.

 4        Q.   Well, as you know, written evidence under 92 ter is also admitted

 5     by this Tribunal.  Did you perhaps produce a written statement

 6     specifically for your evidence here in this trial and what about that

 7     document right in front of you, is that perhaps the statement that you

 8     put together?

 9        A.   Well, let me be specific about this.  I'm not saying that I'm

10     familiar with all these Rules, 96 bis I think you mentioned or something

11     like that, but it doesn't really matter.  I'm in a position to confirm

12     that generally I understand the Rules.  But I wanted to come up with some

13     sort of a framework for myself and it didn't matter to me very much

14     whether it was pursuant to this rule or that.  I tried to put together a

15     number of things that I could use as reminders just to make sure I

16     remained within the right context.  So as far as I understand, you're

17     asking me if this is a statement, a written statement.  No, it's just all

18     these things that I was going through while preparing for my own private

19     needs, my notes that would help me find my feet in any situation that I

20     might encounter.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  General, did anyone specifically ask you to

22     prepare these?

23        A.   No, no one asked me to do this.  No one proposed that I do this.

24     No one imposed this on me.  No one cautioned me about this.  No one even

25     advised me to do it, so the answer is no.

Page 32487

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, may

 2     General Milosevic please be allowed to use his notes during his evidence

 3     before this Trial Chamber as he goes about answering my questions?  As

 4     far as I understand, the notes were disclosed to the OTP last Sunday.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, do you have any observation to make?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Based on Dr. Karadzic's answer, we did receive a

 7     copy of these and a draft translation on the 21st, so no, no objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber sees no problem with it either as long

 9     as you can -- you consult with your handwritten notes under the control

10     of the Chamber.  There should be no problem.  Please proceed.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   General, sir, I asked my advisors and assistants to get in touch

14     with you and to ask you whether you were prepared to appear as a Defence

15     witness in this trial.  They got back to me in no time at all to inform

16     me that you willingly accepted this request.  Can you tell me why?

17        A.   It is true that I welcomed the request.  No additional

18     information was required for me to agreed to appear in this trial as a

19     Defence witness.  As far as my decision to testify here in this trial,

20     well I have quite a number of reasons.  As I said, my reasons are

21     numerous and I will only mention here the two principal reasons.  I

22     thought about it, I made my assessment, and I arrived at some

23     conclusions.  My own trial and the circumstances under which a conviction

24     was imposed --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the witness.

Page 32488

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters didn't understand

 2     your last sentence.  Could you start repeat from your own trial and the

 3     circumstances.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  My trial happened and then it

 5     was completed.  My experience and my conclusion is that certain

 6     conclusions were reached at that trial and the conviction was reached

 7     that does not conform with what was supposed to be demonstrated and

 8     proven beyond reasonable doubt during that trial.  Essentially what was

 9     missing all together was a faithful depiction of the armed conflict:  Who

10     were the clashing parties, what was the progress of the clashes, what

11     were the respective forces involved, and who was involved in the

12     fighting.  So a context was concocted, if I can put it that way,

13     suggesting that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps used all of its fire-power to

14     target the civilian population and the civilian infrastructure.

15             I don't think we ever reached a point in that trial where

16     everything that was going on became clear and obvious for all.  Because

17     everything that was happening there at the time was against the

18     background of two armed forces clashing.  On the one hand the 1st Corps

19     of the BH army and the remaining forces, the police forces and the rest;

20     and on the other the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  These are the two clashing

21     elements or two clashing forces that were engaged in war, in fighting.

22     The issue of civilians belongs to a different context, not that one.  So

23     that is what I need in order to be able to be here and offer evidence in

24     this trial.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32489

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  Did you have a chance to contribute to the

 2     creation of a more faithful depiction of historical events during your

 3     own trial?

 4        A.   Well, that is my problem, isn't it?  And that is what I'm trying

 5     to confirm.  My defence - and I'm not necessarily saying that they did

 6     not desire to do so or perhaps they weren't able to achieve that, but my

 7     Defence failed to produce evidence really showing and demonstrated what

 8     happened there at the time.  The option they decided to take was to have

 9     an opportunity to challenge those incidents at trial without producing

10     key evidence, key evidence showing who was clashing with whom, to what

11     extent, what exactly was the fierceness of the armed combat involved,

12     what were the intentions of the parties involved, who was sending their

13     forces in which direction, and what were the objectives that they were

14     trying to achieve.  We did not arrive at a complete description of what

15     actually happened.  So sometimes there was manipulation.  Sometimes some

16     things were being staged and offensives were being launched.  And it's

17     also about the seriousness of this conflict.  Because what actually

18     happened from our perspective was not two forces clashing on equal

19     footing.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had to cover a very extensive area

20     and there was an element of overstretch.  We were more than fully

21     stretched, which led to a certain -- to a certain evolution, and that

22     evolution led to different conclusions.

23        Q.   I'm not sure if my understanding is correct.  Is this something

24     that you understood during the actual trial or was it only after the

25     trial that you arrived at these conclusions?

Page 32490

 1        A.   First of all, I did not know at the beginning what was going on

 2     there.  It was during the actual clashes that I understood and I'm sure

 3     the enemy understood as well what they were doing and what their

 4     intentions were as well as who they were dealing with and the ratio in

 5     terms of power between the respective forces involved in the fighting,

 6     not to mention the trial itself.  I made an enormous effort to make sure

 7     my Defence and my Defence team understood what they were meant to do.

 8     They were supposed to develop certain method of using documents, taking

 9     into account everything that happened in order to portray the situation

10     as it was, as a faithful reflection of our goals, our intentions, our

11     desires, and the decisions that we took at the time.

12        Q.   Did you have a chance to appear as a witness in your own trial;

13     and if not, why?

14        A.   It's difficult to get something done if you don't enjoy support,

15     if you have no support coming from anywhere and no one to help you -- or

16     rather, allow me to clarify.  It's not just about whether I was actually

17     willing to testify or not.  What I wanted to do was to tell the

18     Prosecution about this whole situation and tell them what it was like,

19     but they were trying to throw me off track, as it were.  Okay.  So I

20     would like to own up to something and then, you know, it's totally

21     different.  So I didn't want this process to involve any confessions or

22     anything like that, any steps like that being taken, but I wanted to have

23     someone who would hear me out so that I could tell them what actually

24     happened.  And then they could take that information and press on in any

25     direction they liked regarding me or, indeed, anything else, no matter

Page 32491

 1     whether they would actually believe me or not.  So my lawyer tried to

 2     talk me out of that.  He discouraged me by telling me that this would be

 3     no use at all and that it would be an error for me to take that course of

 4     action.  I didn't understand at the time what exactly that meant, to

 5     appear as a witness in your own trial.  How far would anyone be willing

 6     to trust my words, trust my evidence?  Perhaps I would have been

 7     construed as trying to lead biased evidence in my favour, but that was

 8     all I was trying to achieve.  Nothing else mattered.  It wasn't like I

 9     was trying to take a distance from anything that I did at the time.

10        Q.   Last question today.  General, sir, let's leave theory aside and

11     probably no good lawyer would advise you to trust the Prosecutor, but

12     could it perhaps have been the case that there were documents for you to

13     use that perhaps you might have used during your own evidence in your own

14     trial and yet those documents were never actually produced during the

15     trial?

16        A.   Documents are something special, something important, something

17     big.  My Defence team told me at one point that they had collected a

18     total of 5.000 documents from the defence ministry in Sarajevo.  I was

19     overjoyed.  5.000 documents.  And now it was time for me to study these

20     documents, to go through them, and to make certain suggestions in line

21     with that to my Defence team, but I didn't get that chance.  So it was

22     all about the plan hatched up by the person in charge of my Defence.  He

23     wanted to take the shortest route in order to keep us from wasting time

24     because all this needs translating and so on and so forth.  So he came up

25     with a selection of documents and then I went through those documents and

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 1     then told him what I thought he should do.  But when I continued to make

 2     suggestions, they simply paid no heed.  He had his own plan.  He wasn't

 3     interested in my plan, in my ideas.  Every time I would propose that he

 4     seek out someone, an expert or a person to talk to, I always got the same

 5     reply.  Invariably, he would tell me that those were people who came to

 6     him for advice because he was the cleverest guy around and it wasn't his

 7     job to go around asking other people for advice.  So I didn't have all

 8     these documents available to me apart from the ones that he was actually

 9     tendering, but I'd normally first set eyes on those in the courtroom and

10     not before.  So how could I use any of those as evidence?

11        Q.   Thank you very much, General, sir.  I believe this is all the

12     time that we've got for today.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we pressing on until 3.00,

14     Your Excellency, or is it quarter to 3.00?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll adjourn for today.

16             Mr. Milosevic, I'd like to advise you once you started giving

17     evidence you're not supposed to discuss with anybody else about your

18     testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour, I

20     understand.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  The

22     hearing ...

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Of course that excludes your counsel.

25             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, I intend to visit the witness at the

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 1     Detention Unit.  However, it's already been explained to the witness that

 2     this is for his well being and not to discuss contents of his testimony.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

 4             The hearing is adjourned.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.52 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

 8                           January, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.