Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32884

 1                           Wednesday, 30 January 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I've just been asked

 9     to put on the record, Your Honours, that the document which was the

10     subject of your ruling at the end of the proceedings yesterday afternoon,

11     earlier in the day received Exhibit Number D2817 when it was used by

12     Dr. Karadzic with General Milosevic.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

15                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR MILOSEVIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

18     Good morning to everyone.

19                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General Milosevic.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   Given the fact that I have very little time, I wanted to join a

23     couple of topics.  You told us why the troops were persistent and brave

24     because they were a people's army defending their homes.  Were there any

25     negative consequences for the security of officers because it was not a

Page 32885

 1     professional army?

 2        A.   There were.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D7534.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you recognise this document, General?  Somebody signed it for

 6     you, but your name is at the bottom.

 7        A.   I do recognise it.

 8        Q.   What is it about briefly, please.

 9        A.   The gist is that an order is being issued specifying measures to

10     protect officers.

11        Q.   What was the reasoning behind it?

12        A.   There was wilful conduct by individuals and people reacted

13     inappropriately concerning some commands that were issued to them and a

14     number of officers found themselves in danger due to the behaviour of

15     certain groups of -- or irresponsible people.  As far as I know, it even

16     went as far as one commander, brigade commander, being killed.  He was

17     not from the SRK.  In that regard, measures and orders were issued in

18     order to improve the security of officers and the way the military police

19     was used to provide security for those officers.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In the area of your corps, were there any murders,

21     especially of civilian dignitaries by our soldiers?

22        A.   Yes, there were.  In Grbavica, the president of the

23     Executive Council of Novo Sarajevo municipality was killed,

24     Budo Obradovic.  Before holding that position, he had been a battalion

25     commander as part of the 1st Romanija Brigade.  He was the epitome of

Page 32886

 1     someone who went about his work fairly and appropriately.  The civilian

 2     and military police investigated his case.  I am not aware of any

 3     details.  I just know that the man was killed.  I don't know to what

 4     extent it was documented in terms of procedure.

 5             As for Colonel Jovo Bartula, who commanded the artillery regiment

 6     in the SRK, was wounded due to the wilful conduct of some people.  He had

 7     been wounded in his arm.  So the consequences were not as serious, but

 8     still it was a reflection of that type of behaviour vis-a-vis officers.

 9        Q.   Thank you, General.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2842, Your Honours.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   General, I have to move to the next topic immediately to discuss

15     the relationship between the president of the republic and the commander

16     of the Main Staff.

17             In the briefest of terms, can you tell us what you knew about it

18     and what was your view of that relationship?

19        A.   My screen doesn't seem to be working, so I won't be waiting for

20     any documents.

21             I have a specific opinion, position, regarding that, although its

22     importance was far broader than what I will try to explain here, trying

23     to put my answers within the time allotted.

24             My knowledge or my estimate that I reached based on what was

25     going on between the President of Republika Srpska and the commander of

Page 32887

 1     the Main Staff is that the relationship was detrimental.  It was not a

 2     good one.  The person who did not work on improving that relationship was

 3     Mr. Mladic.  He wanted to be dominant in all situations without

 4     respecting the structure, level of address, and the people's positions in

 5     our area.  That is to say, in the area of Republika Srpska.

 6             I was quite displeased.  There were a number of situations which

 7     indicated that things were wrong.  I never had occasion at any meeting or

 8     encounter to hear from the horse's mouth, so to say, what the root of the

 9     problem was in your relationship with Mr. Mladic.  I don't know whether

10     it was a matter of argument or open confrontation.  I simply know that

11     Mladic refused having anyone on a higher position than his.

12        Q.   Thank you.  General, do you remember that in early August 1995, I

13     attempted to change the structure and establishment formation in order to

14     change the Main Staff into a General Staff and make certain personnel

15     changes?  It was in document D2159.  If you recall, all of the generals

16     at the time save for yourself supported Mladic.  D2159.

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, that's very leading, Mr. Karadzic.  You're not

18     giving evidence.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to draw the attention of

20     the participants to the following, and I would like to ask the General

21     the following.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   What was the position of the generals in this attempt of mine

24     concerning General Mladic, and what was your position?  Why were you not

25     on the same side or list?

Page 32888

 1        A.   May I?  The question you put, in order for me to be able to

 2     explain to the Chamber, it requires a somewhat long explanation.

 3     However, I will do my best to bring it down to only a few sentences.

 4             It is all true.  There was an attempt following the president's

 5     decision to have Mr. Mladic removed.  It's a well-known matter.  What

 6     followed was his objection or refusal.  He did so by gathering the

 7     generals, rallying the generals against the measure.  It indeed took

 8     place.  We all know what the dates in question are.  Some were in early

 9     August.

10             All of the generals arrived in Banja Luka, and it was very clear

11     that they accepted General Mladic's position in the sense that the

12     president of the republic was wrong and that Mladic should not be

13     removed.  I was not in Banja Luka at that moment when the gathering took

14     place since I was still engaged in combat.  I have to repeat once again

15     all areas were important to me, especially the situation in the Nisici

16     plateau.  As I was there, no one managed to communicate with me to tell

17     me that I was expected to appear anywhere, be it with Mladic or

18     President Karadzic given the fact that both sides had summoned the

19     generals.  I was completely unaware of it.  When I returned to the

20     command, my associates briefed me on what went on.

21             That same afternoon, I set off together with Colonel

22     Cedo Sladoje.  We wanted to see President Karadzic in an attempt to help

23     resolve the situation or even things out so as to perhaps gain a better

24     insight as to whether the removal should take place or not.  We visited

25     Mr. Karadzic, and he wasn't able to make a decision at the time.

Page 32889

 1             The very next day I went to Banja Luka to find General Mladic.  I

 2     wanted the whole thing to be resolved in a more intelligent way, but it

 3     was also my estimate that I was not the kind of mediator who could even

 4     things out.

 5             I found Mladic not in Banja Luka, but I was transported by

 6     helicopter to Ostrelj.  It's a hill, a mountain, just outside Drvar.  I

 7     found him there.  He explained it to me and he told me what the other

 8     generals had accepted the day earlier.

 9             Then Croatian MiGs 21 and 29 arrived as part of their sources and

10     there was a real threat that we would be killed at Ostrelj.  That is why

11     our conversation was very brief.  It was my decision to accept his

12     position as he persisted that he should not be removed.

13             This is in the briefest possible terms, but actually that is how

14     things developed.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was it seen as you joining the other generals in

16     supporting Mladic?  Was that how the Main Staff saw it?

17        A.   Yes.  That's how they interpreted my behaviour.  That very day I

18     was supposed to undergo an eye surgery at the Military Medical Academy in

19     Belgrade.  It was a very important health issue for me, but I asked for

20     it to be postponed, and I left the next day from Banja Luka.  I went to

21     Belgrade.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Was the general public informed, as you recall, the

23     Assembly and the general public were informed that the last of the

24     generals had signed the last of the ones to be -- to give his opinion had

25     signed in favour of Mladic?

Page 32890

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat his answer, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters were not able to

 3     hear your answer because you overlapped with the translation of

 4     Mr. Karadzic's question.  If you could repeat it.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My last answer?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I understand.  The general

 8     public was informed that I, too, had accepted the standpoint and joined

 9     the viewpoint of the other generals, and the conclusion was that I was

10     supporting Mladic's conduct and attitude, although this was done, as I

11     have said, it was not my intention to be the one, but it is true that it

12     was used for those purposes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 8415.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is a poor version.  I have a better version in Serbian.

16     This is a telegram.  I have -- well, I'll read it to you.

17             "To the Republika Srpska National Assembly, to the president of

18     the Republika Srpska.

19             "Dear sir, today the commander of the VRS Main Staff Colonel

20     Mladic met the commander of the VRS Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Major-General

21     Dragomir Milosevic who was informed of the content of the discussions at

22     the expanded session of the advisory board.  General Milosevic, like

23     every other general of the Republika Srpska, was in entire agreement with

24     all the decisions and conclusions adopted at the session including the

25     letter addressed to the Republika Srpska National Assembly and the

Page 32891

 1     President of Republika Srpska regarding the decision of the president to

 2     relieve the commander of the VRS of duty and to order changes to the

 3     system, organisation, and staffing the VRS.  Since Major-Generals

 4     Budimir Galic and Radivoje Miletic have previously expressed their

 5     support by telephone, it has been established that all the generals are

 6     absolutely united."

 7             Is --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Slow down.  Slow down.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   -- is this what it says here?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I confirm that this is what

13     was announced, what was broadcast, but I heard that this was the case.  I

14     didn't know what the communique was, because I wasn't there.  I was

15     outside the area where this was taking place.  I was in Belgrade.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May this be admitted

17     into evidence?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seems that the more legible

21     version is on the other side of the Serbian version.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll receive it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2843, Your Honours.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, can you tell us very briefly what the result was of this

Page 32892

 1     attempt of mine?

 2        A.   I think the result is well known.  As I see it, there was no

 3     replacement of Mladic.  There was no shake-up.  I did not follow the

 4     situation further, so I can't say what its effects were or its impact on

 5     relations within the Army of Republika Srpska and the government organs.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we look at 65 ter 13935.  This

 8     is a letter dated the 27th of August, 1995.  Can we have -- well, this

 9     was signed by Miletic, not Jelacic, but the content is the same.  Can we

10     see the next page, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Were you aware of this decision of mine on my withdrawing my

13     previous decisions?

14        A.   I was aware that the course of events was as described here, but

15     as I have said, I did not receive information in writing.  I did not see

16     documents of this kind.

17        Q.   But were you aware that I myself had withdrawn my previous

18     decrees?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May it be admitted into evidence?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2844, Your Honours.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, I can't go through all the areas, but there's one topic

Page 32893

 1     I want to ask you about.  What was the policy of the Sarajevo-Romanija

 2     Corps vis-a-vis humanitarian aid passing through and arriving in

 3     Sarajevo?  I'm speaking in general terms of humanitarian aid, utilities,

 4     electricity, water, and so on.

 5        A.   Yes.  I have to say now that this is a highly complex issue

 6     linked to events throughout this period and the course of the war, that

 7     is, the conflict that obtained in the area I was in.  It deserved a great

 8     deal of attention and the absolute care of everyone involved, both

 9     military and civilians.  An area such as the area of Sarajevo, that's

10     what I'm referring to now because I don't have all the information

11     concerning humanitarian aid in Republika Srpska as a whole, the city of

12     Sarajevo had to receive all kinds of humanitarian aid and everything that

13     related to the population.

14             I confirm that the flow and the activities were not disturbed by

15     the command of the corps and were not obstructed in any way whatsoever,

16     but I understood that the delivery had to be done in such a way that we

17     would have to reassure ourselves as to what kind of goods were being

18     sent.  So everything that referred to attempts to smuggle in arms,

19     ammunition, and other such things in these kinds of transports had to be

20     efficiently established, and we had to make sure that this could not

21     happen.  So whenever such a thing did happen, that along with

22     humanitarian aid a convoy would contain things that were prohibited, then

23     that was a situation we had to resolve.

24        Q.   Thank you.  General, what was the proportion of such instances in

25     relation to the total number of convoys daily?  How often did these

Page 32894

 1     problems arise?

 2        A.   I cannot be certain, but very often something would happen that

 3     was not in line with what had been agreed.  However, in spite of this, it

 4     was my impression that humanitarian aid was not compromised, that it was

 5     not obstructed when one had to determine whether it had arrived in

 6     Sarajevo or not.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  From whom -- by whom were you informed that the

 8     convoys had been approved and what was the further procedure?

 9        A.   We received that from the Main Staff.  It all went through

10     Mr. Indjic, and he passed on all this information to the organs in the

11     command who were supposed to provide this information to the check-points

12     controlling the entrance of convoys, and they would be told who was

13     coming, what was coming, and so on.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we see 1D7543, please.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your microphone is off.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, this is your document from 1993 in which you say that

20     you had been informed by the Main Staff that they had approved this.  Can

21     you look at your instructions, the instructions you issued to your units

22     concerning this?

23        A.   It says:

24             "To carry out reception, planned control, and secure movement

25     along approved roads throughout.  Firmly adhere to current rules and

Page 32895

 1     guidelines regarding movement of UNPROFOR convoys."

 2             I don't see the document any further.

 3        Q.   Was this an exception?  What was your attitude to this?  What is

 4     this in fact?  Is this a one-off situation, or did this kind of thing

 5     happen all the time?

 6        A.   Yes, I understand your question.  Of course, we had to carry out

 7     certain checks and to have indicators.  That was our regular practice.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know or were you able to know that this

 9     humanitarian aid being sent through to the civilian population under

10     Muslim control, that it was also given to the armed forces?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  That's another leading question.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I withdraw my question.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, what was the situation as regards food for your men in

17     the corps?  How did the supplies arrive in this period?  Do you remember?

18        A.   Well, of course I remember.  There was a shortage of foodstuffs,

19     and this included both staples, strategic foodstuffs and those that were

20     less important.  That was a constant problem, and we had to seek a way to

21     compensate for these shortages and to make sure that soldiers received

22     the food that it was possible for them to receive, but these things came

23     as humanitarian aid, and no one dared approve its use for the army.  But

24     speaking on my own behalf exclusively, I think that this practice was not

25     all right because a soldier is also a human being and needs to eat and

Page 32896

 1     needs to be helped.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2845, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I told you that you would have half an

 8     hour today and the time's up.  I'd like -- would like you to conclude in

 9     five minutes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

11     thought that only my cross-examinations were to be limited and that when

12     it comes to examination-in-chief I can schedule my time according to

13     how -- how important I believe the witness to be, but I will do my best.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber rarely limits your

15     examination-in-chief.  However, your estimate was only six hours for this

16     witness, and you have spent almost 14 hours, and you indicated that your

17     examination will have been concluded by yesterday.  So I think it's more

18     than reasonable to expect you to conclude in half an hour today.  In any

19     event, five minutes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have 1D7545.  I

21     apologise -- well, I am sorry, Your Excellency, that I have to limit my

22     witness to yes or no answers because he has much to tell us.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you look at this document of yours from August 1993 and tell

25     us briefly that you are drawing attention to the shortages in relation to

Page 32897

 1     your troops.

 2        A.   The contents speak of the problem and its size.  For me, the

 3     problem was how to organise food for my soldiers.  My soldiers were

 4     worried.  They didn't know whether they had support and equipment for

 5     fighting.  They were not so much concerned with the food, but I was the

 6     one who had to raise that issue with certain bodies in order to make sure

 7     that my troops had the necessary food.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2846, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, sir, perhaps you can answer with yes or no.  What was

13     your attitude towards repairs of the water supply system and the

14     electricity supply system that was needed to supply the other side, the

15     enemy side?

16        A.   I will not be happy if you want me to answer by just yes or no

17     since I know what was done in order to repair the water and electricity

18     lines.  We respected all requests by UNPROFOR, and we reacted to any

19     need, and we did whatever was necessary to make sure that there was

20     water, electricity, and all the other bare necessities for everybody.

21             I personally, at the request of the CEO of Unioninvest,

22     Mr. Bogdan Ceko, I made sure that the Moscanica water source was

23     repaired, that people who were engaged in the repair works were

24     protected.  That water well supplied the city of Sarajevo.  To be more

25     precise, the old part of the city, and the repair works were done

Page 32898

 1     properly.

 2        Q.   1D7544.  Take a glance.  This is your document [Realtime

 3     transcript read in error "indictment"].  Tell us whether this is the

 4     document that you have just described for us.  7544.

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  That's the document.  This is my order whereby I

 6     ordered that the work of those men should be secure, that they should not

 7     be touched while engaged in the repair works.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Admission?  Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2847, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, sir, what about the supply with electricity of our part

13     of Sarajevo as opposed to the Muslim part of Sarajevo?

14        A.   It was one and the same.  When there was no electricity in our

15     part, there was no electricity over there and vice versa.  This is what I

16     know.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at 1D7547.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Please look at the third paragraph from the bottom, where it says

21     since electricity is necessary, you propose that a ring should be set up.

22        A.   Yes, yes.  Later on people, and I mean repairsmen, did a

23     fantastic job.  There was constant fighting going on.  Still they managed

24     to connect the line and provide both sides with electricity.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  And I have

Page 32899

 1     another document, and I will bring this to an end.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2848, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   1D7546.  General, can you explain why you issued this proposal

 6     regarding alternative routes for convoys?  Do you remember this document?

 7     Is this your signature?

 8        A.   Signature, yes.  Let me see.  Of course I remember.  As a matter

 9     of fact, I see now what the document was about.  My position was -- or

10     better say, the position of the corps command was that no obstacles

11     should be placed in the way of convoys.  We wanted them to pass through

12     as quickly as possible.  That's why we proposed certain points through

13     which movements should go, and that proposal implied guarantees for the

14     bridges in the city, guarantees that there would be no disturbance on our

15     part.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at bullet point 4 where you mention the

17     reasons.  You don't have to read.  Just tell us what prompted you to

18     issue this proposal.

19        A.   I was prompted with what you can read here.  You can see what we

20     did, what the -- kind of movements there were, what shortcomings may

21     arise.  When something could be spotted in our zone of responsibility,

22     then a proper attitude could have been adopted to the situation.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  And the last

24     question.  Can the document be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 32900

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2849, Your Honours.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I'm not asking you about any exact numbers, but just

 4     approximately, can you tell us how many sorties there were and how many

 5     landings at the Sarajevo airport daily?  I'm talking about humanitarian

 6     aid, UNPROFOR flights, over the period of 1.300 days, and how big was the

 7     percentage of flights and landings that experienced problems on --

 8     problems coming from any of the two sides?

 9        A.   It seems to me that I cannot give you anything that would be

10     conclusive information.  However, I can share with you my impression.

11     You have to bear in mind that the corps command was very close to the

12     airport and that we had a visual contact, and we did not have to rely on

13     any information.  We could see with our own eyes that the arrivals of

14     certain aircraft at Sarajevo airport was to a large extent uneventful.

15     It seems to me that that airport functioned even better than the airport

16     here in Amsterdam.

17        Q.   General, sir, did you have all of these documents at your

18     disposal during your trial?

19        A.   No.  No.  My trial and the intentions and the attempts or desires

20     of my lawyer who wanted to achieve things and put in place some kind of

21     defence system, it was not represented either partially or fully.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.

23     I have no more time.  I have questions but no time.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I want to tell you that the situation regarding your

25     trial is not relevant in this case, because we are not having a retrial

Page 32901

 1     or the judgement was -- your judgement was not in evidence in our case.

 2             Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I was on my feet to raise an objection as to the

 4     relevance of that line of -- that question, Your Honours.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, will you not be taking into account

 6     for credibility purposes the fact that the witness has been convicted

 7     and --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We also -- we take some judicial notice of some

 9     adjudicated facts from his case regarding convoys.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, but in light of that, don't you think that

11     his explanation as to his trial is relevant if you're going to consider

12     the fact that he's been convicted in terms of his credibility?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll leave it there at that time.

14             Yes.  Your examination-in-chief is over, Mr. Milosevic.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

18             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Just a quick

19     transcript correction.  At page 14, line 21, the question was put to the

20     witness:  "This is your indictment," whereas Dr. Karadzic said, "This is

21     your document."  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Milosevic, you will now be

23     cross-examined by the Prosecution, in particular Ms. Edgerton,

24     representative of the Office the Prosecutor, but given the circumstances,

25     in particular for her preparation, before we start hearing your

Page 32902

 1     cross-examination we -- we decided to hear three witnesses' evidence.  So

 2     probably in my estimate you'll start being cross-examined tomorrow or

 3     Monday next week.

 4             Do you understand that, sir?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  I would be grateful

 6     to you if I were given a short break.  I don't know whether I may be

 7     allowed to tell you this.  I have just one shirt.  I don't have the time

 8     to deal with that and make myself presentable given the intensity of the

 9     way we work here.  So if my cross-examination may be delayed until

10     Monday, it would help me enormously to be able to cope with the

11     situation.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Probably that may be possible, but at the same time,

13     the -- the Chamber does not want to lose its court -- courtroom time, so

14     we'll see how it evolves.  But before doing so, I have some questions

15     about what you said with respect to Mr. Karadzic's attempt to remove

16     Mr. Mladic from the position of his -- of the command of the VRS.

17             You explained in detail what -- what you did or how you reacted

18     to that -- in that regard, but could you tell us the reason for

19     Mr. Karadzic to try to -- or attempt to remove him, and what's the point

20     of disagreement with the civilian leadership and military leadership, and

21     what was the rationale for the VRS generals to decide to support the --

22     Mladic's position?  In other words, what was wrong with Mr. Karadzic?

23             I was asking a compound question, but I believe that you will be

24     capable of answering all the points.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll do my best to

Page 32903

 1     provide the answer based on my perception of the situation.  I'm not

 2     purporting to say that I was on top of the situation and that I was aware

 3     of the deeper reasons for which Mr. Karadzic wanted to remove

 4     General Mladic.  I can't tell you what exactly was the pretext, but I can

 5     share with you my impression, as I've already explained.

 6             We already started feeling -- or, rather, sensing that there were

 7     problems in relations between Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic.  The

 8     relationship as it was, was the one of domination -- or, rather, Mladic

 9     wanted to be independent and not controlled by any superior body, and

10     that was the structure of their overall relationship.

11             I believe that that was the true indicator showing that he wanted

12     to reap rewards of his popularity among people and achieve certain

13     effects, perhaps in some future elections or something.  I really can't

14     say.  I can only speculate.

15             Your Honours, it seems to me yesterday on the screen there was a

16     document which General Mladic issued in order to warn the corps command

17     or, more precisely, he warns myself that I should not be doing certain

18     things in relation to a meeting with civilian structures.  That document

19     was not actually addressed at me.  There was a tendency to create an

20     impression that civilian bodies were exercising certain things that were

21     not in line with rules of combat.  I don't have any evidence to support

22     that, but I am saying that this was my feeling, that this is what the

23     intention was.  But I would like to say that this was not only the result

24     of Mr. Mladic but also of those who were creating an atmosphere of a bad

25     relationship between Mladic and Karadzic.  Fuel was added to that fire

Page 32904

 1     from wider sources.

 2             I know that Mr. Mladic was bothered by my conduct, because I was

 3     not prepared to tell him, "General, sir, God has sent you to be our

 4     commander."  The truth is, however, that I respected his orders, but I

 5     did not do it overzealously.  I was not overzealous in my dealings with

 6     him, and that's why I was put under a lot of pressure.

 7             It was implied that I obeyed Mr. Karadzic, that I obeyed his

 8     orders.  First of all, this is not correct.  I never received any

 9     instructions or orders that would be issued for the Sarajevo-Romanija

10     Corps exclusively.  Whatever arrived from the Presidency applied across

11     the board to the Army of Republika Srpska and the developments

12     surrounding the army.

13             I was exposed to a lot of trouble.  First of all, there were a

14     lot of inaccuracies in the interpretation of my conduct and -- and

15     falsities.  First of all, I was perceived as being a member of the

16     Serbian Democratic Party.  I was never a member of any party by the

17     League of Communists of Yugoslavia.  There is no doubt about that.  I

18     was.  I was mocked by some of the people from the Main Staff.  For

19     example, when they saw my jeep, my military vehicle, they would say,

20     "There he is in the SDS jeep."  That was a nonsense that could only

21     insult me.  I had to ignore all that and focus on those issues that we

22     have discussed over the past few days.  My main task was to look after

23     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and its destiny.

24             Certainly this may not be the most precise of answers.  I'm sorry

25     I had to be somewhat more expansive in my answer.

Page 32905

 1             When General Mladic entered my office at the corps command, he

 2     inspected my walls to see whether his photo was hanging on them, but he

 3     was also happy that President Karadzic's photo was not on the wall.  The

 4     photo that I had on the wall was of Duke Misic, the famous hero from our

 5     past.

 6             As for the rest, we had to co-operate, and we were not supposed

 7     to allow ourselves to create the situation that existed during the

 8     Second World War where we had two sides, Chetniks on one side, Partisans

 9     on the other, and all that had disastrous consequences.  That was my main

10     concern, and I could not change anybody's attitude.  I could only appeal

11     to my former colleagues to change their attitude.

12             Your Honours, I have nothing further to say in that respect.  If

13     you have any more questions, please go ahead.

14             JUDGE KWON:  You told me that General Mladic was sort of dominant

15     and wanted to be independent from his superior.  Does it mean that he was

16     disobedient or defiant to -- to his commander, i.e., Supreme Commander?

17     Do you have some examples where Mr. Mladic disobeyed the order from the

18     president?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness receive

20     appropriate interpretation of the word "defiant."

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even see that

22     interpretation.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Well --

24             THE ACCUSED:  Disobedient or defiant.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I said so.

Page 32906

 1             Now do you understand the question?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.  I understood it just the

 3     way you put it.  That was the nature of his conduct.  I cannot confirm,

 4     though, specifically where and when he may have put forth any requests or

 5     whatever one would call it inside civilian structures instead of orders.

 6     I can't say which ones he ignored or declined.  I don't know that.  Any

 7     details about the conflict between the two people is something I am not

 8     aware of.  I don't have clear indications.  I'm merely discussing my

 9     general impression, and that is the extent of my knowledge.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And on your own you said the generals decided to

11     support General Mladic and that Mr. Karadzic was wrong at the time.  What

12     was the reason for the conclusion that Mr. Karadzic had been wrong?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I said that

14     Dr. Karadzic was wrong.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I'll read out what you said.  It's

16     transcript page 5, lines 9.

17             "All of the generals arrived in Banja Luka, and it was very clear

18     that they accepted General Mladic's position in the sense that the

19     president of the republic was wrong and that Mladic should not be

20     removed."

21             Could you tell us the reason for such conclusion?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what I said.  At the

23     meeting they supported him.  They supported Mladic.  That means that they

24     believed Karadzic was wrong.  That piece of information that it was their

25     estimate that Karadzic was wrong is not something as -- that I can use as

Page 32907

 1     any proof or source of knowledge.  This is simply my understanding.  If

 2     all of them arrived there and in their conversations with him they

 3     expressed their views that they support Mladic, this in turn meant that

 4     they were trying to say that Mr. Karadzic was wrong.  That is the

 5     conclusion that one draws from it.  I'm not asserting that they stated it

 6     in so many words, though.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Then given the court schedule and in addition to the

10     wish of the witness, it seems possible that we start the

11     cross-examination of Mr. Milosevic on Monday.  And in -- how much do you

12     expect your cross-examination to last, Ms. Edgerton?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Preliminarily because I haven't had, obviously,

14     the chance to digest the information this morning, I would say now, seven

15     hours.  On reflection, I might be able to reduce that.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That adds more reason to defer the cross-examination

17     to Monday.

18             THE ACCUSED:  Excellencies, when we have lost the habit that if

19     we -- for the long weekends, why it shouldn't be Tuesday as usual.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I don't remember, but the Chamber has some meetings,

21     something like that.  Just a second.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has something to do on Friday, so that

24     was the reason why we changed the schedule.

25             THE ACCUSED:  But usually if we start Monday next week, we start

Page 32908

 1     Tuesday.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The Chamber is aware of that.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic.  We're out of

 4     synchronisation, though.  This week is unusual.  We normally would have

 5     sat -- not sat last Monday and sat on Friday, but for this week only it

 6     was changed, and therefore the knock-on effect is that we sit next

 7     Monday.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And we are going to take different regime in April

10     and May.  I think that has been informed.

11             Mr. Milosevic, you may be excused.

12             THE ACCUSED:  No translation.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll hear your cross-examination on Monday next

14     week.  You may be excused.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED:  No translation.  I don't think he got translation.

17             JUDGE KWON:  General, did you hear my explanation that your

18     examination -- cross-examination will start on Monday next week?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, Your Honour.  I heard and

20     understood.  Everything's fine.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

24             Before we proceed, Mr. Robinson, the Chamber is -- is seized of

25     the Defence filing of yesterday, i.e., the request for presence of

Page 32909

 1     counsel for Witness Edin Garaplija.  I wonder whether you are in the

 2     position to answer why Mr. Garaplija is wanting a lawyer to be present

 3     during the testimony and what the legal basis for that would be.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I've been in touch with

 5     Mr. Garaplija's lawyer, and although I haven't put that exact question to

 6     him, I believe that the reason that Mr. Garaplija wants him to be present

 7     is because Mr. Garaplija was prosecuted for the events in which he is

 8     going to give evidence, and I think that there's some concerns concerning

 9     his rights about self-incrimination.  And I'm not a hundred per cent sure

10     what self-incrimination actually would exist since his case has been

11     finished, but there's enough of a connection between his criminal case

12     and his testimony that I think it would be fair for him to be represented

13     by a lawyer.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber wasn't aware of his earlier conviction.

15             Mr. Tieger, do you confirm that?

16             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  He -- indeed, he was tried and convicted in Bosnia

18     for -- I hesitate to speak unless I'm precisely sure of how -- the

19     wording of the charges but I'm not at this moment, but indeed that's the

20     case.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And the Prosecution does not object to the presence

22     of his attorney to be present?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Shall we take a break now?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President.

Page 32910

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Before we take a break, would it be possible for

 3     me to read a very brief stipulation or agreement that the parties had

 4     reached concerning the evidence of Congressman Tony Hall.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber was informed informally of that, but the

 6     Chamber would prefer to have it in writing by a joint -- joint

 7     submission.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll have a break for half an hour and

10     resume quarter to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Hrsum.  Please take a seat and make

18     yourself comfortable.

19                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV HRSUM

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before you start giving evidence, Mr. Hrsum, I would

22     like to draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal.

23     Under this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from

24     the accused, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that

25     your answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate," I mean that

Page 32911

 1     something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt or could -- or

 2     could provide evidence that you have committed an offence.  However, even

 3     if you believe that your answer will incriminate you and you do not wish

 4     to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to compel you to

 5     answer the question.  But in such a case, the Tribunal will make sure

 6     that your testimony compelled in such a way will not be used as evidence

 7     in other cases against you for any offence other than false testimony.

 8             Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hrsum.

14        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

15        Q.   I have to ask you and remind myself, because despite of my quite

16     extensive experience here, I often forget, and that is that we have to

17     pause between questions and answers so that the interpreters would be

18     able to interpret it all.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, microphone.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On the screen before you, when the cursor stops moving and the

23     letter A appears, it should be a prompt for you to start answering.

24     That's better than losing something for the transcript.

25             Mr. Hrsum, did you provide a statement to the Defence team?

Page 32912

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D7053 in

 4     e-court.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you see the statement before you, Mr. Hrsum?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Have you read it and signed it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Let us pause, please.  Thank you.  Does the statement accurately

11     reflect what you told the Defence team?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you in this courtroom

14     today that you were put by the Defence team, would your answers be

15     basically the same?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I seek to tender

19     this exhibit.  It is under Rule 92 ter with an associated document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, any objection?

21             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you are requesting for a leave to -- to

23     add to the 65 ter list.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we are.  We didn't have this

25     document at the time we filed our list.

Page 32913

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll grant the request and admit both

 2     of the documents.  Shall we give the exhibit number for the statement

 3     first?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit Number

 5     D2850.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And the associated exhibit.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Which is 65 ter 1D14001 will be Exhibit D2851.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd now like to read

11     out a summary in the English language of Mr. Hrsum's testimony.

12             [In English] Tomislav Hrsum was born on 10th of June, 1957, in

13     Rusanovici village, Rogatica municipality.  He completed the secondary

14     School of Internal Affairs in Sarajevo, after which he was assigned to

15     Traffic Police Station 1 in Sarajevo.  In the mid-1980s, he was appointed

16     police inspector at the Sarajevo city S-U-P, SUP.

17             From 1987, Tomislav Hrsum was assigned to the criminal

18     investigation service at the Pale SJB station.  Early in 1994, he was

19     appointed chief of the criminal investigation service at the Pale SJB,

20     where he stayed until the end of 1996.  After that, he was assigned to

21     the office of the RS MUP as the chief inspector.

22             Right up until the outbreak of the war, the Pale SJB was a

23     territorial and organisational unit of the Sarajevo city SUP, while

24     functionally it was also linked to the Sarajevo security services centre

25     whose purview was greater than that of the Sarajevo city SUP.

Page 32914

 1             The Pale SJB was financed and obtained all other materiel and

 2     technical equipment from the Sarajevo city SUP.

 3             The SDS established in July 1990 following the establishment of

 4     the SDA and HDZ.  The SDS programme was equally -- equality of all

 5     nations and nationalities and resolving state matters through agreements.

 6     The SDS and the SDA had divided power in Pale and an agreement between

 7     the parties was formed.  However, the SDA did everything in its power to

 8     ensure its predominance over the security organs.

 9             The SDA establishment of the Patriotic League in 1991 and the

10     Green Berets caused fear and anxiety among the Serbs due to the partial

11     inclusion in the police of these organisations.  The Serbs did not have

12     paramilitary formations as they supported and trusted the JNA to protect

13     them.  The Muslims refused to discharge their compulsory military

14     service, meaning that the JNA comprised a high number of Serbs.  Before

15     the war, Muslims in Pale illegally procured weapons.  At this time, the

16     Assembly adopted a declaration of independence against the will of the

17     Serbian people, and the Serbian deputies replied by forming an Assembly

18     of the Serbian people in BH.

19             Tomislav Hrsum is aware that at the beginning of 1992, members of

20     the Sarajevo Stari Grad police station, with members of the

21     Patriotic League, set up permanent check-points around Sarajevo.  People

22     from Pale were frequently abused at these check-points, their property

23     and documents were seized, and this was often done by criminals who were

24     members of the reserve police force and the Green Berets.  Following

25     this, all Serbian policemen in the Sarajevo Stari Grad SJB were expelled

Page 32915

 1     and disarmed which caused additional fear, uncertainty, and anxiety

 2     amongst the Serbs -- Serbian people.

 3             When a member of -- of a Serbian wedding party was killed in

 4     Bascarsija, Serbs gathered in Pale and relied on the police to make --

 5     relied on the police to make sure -- to take measure and patrols were set

 6     up.  In March 1992, Muslim policemen from the Pale area stated that they

 7     did not want to continue attending work and handed in their badges and

 8     weapons.  However, some did not return these.  Muslim paramilitary units

 9     blocked Pale municipality from all sides and attacked a Serbian

10     settlement.  A general mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, the armed

11     forces for the RS, was only mobilised after the killing of JNA soldiers

12     in Sarajevo.

13             During the fighting, a large number of refugees from Sarajevo

14     moved to Pale.  A holding centre was established in the local gym whilst

15     accommodation was found.  Pale hosted approximately 400 Muslims who were

16     being transferred to Central Bosnia.  Accommodation was found in the gym

17     for them and a guard was kept by JNA soldiers.

18             Muslims in Pale were safe and went on with their regular

19     activities and many people still had faith in the J -- SJB.  However,

20     when war broke out, members of paramilitary forces placed obstacles on

21     the road disrupting traffic and abusing Serbs who were leaving the area.

22     Muslims requested to leave Pale -- requests to leave Pale were granted in

23     June 1992, and there were no incidents during this departure.  Records

24     were kept of these applications.

25             When war broke out -- out all contacts with the Sarajevo city SUP

Page 32916

 1     and others ceased, and the jurisdiction were lost so that the functioning

 2     of the SJB, particularly in criminal investigation service, became

 3     blocked.  Muslim paramilitary units blocked the territory of Pale on

 4     6th of April, 1992, and there was immediately a problem in the form of a

 5     shortage of materiel and technical equipment required for work, and there

 6     was no way to implement the detention of persons.

 7             Muslim attacks continued.  One incident occurred when

 8     approximately 50 soldiers were killed transporting food even after their

 9     passage had been agreed.  Another attack took place on the day of a

10     funeral for a JNA soldier.  Muslims attacked Serbian positions while the

11     soldiers were present at the funeral.  Muslims also killed children,

12     women, and elderly residents of Serbian villages and shelled the -- the

13     war hospital in Koran causing considerable damage.

14             In general, there were no paramilitary units in Pale area.

15     However, there was one recorded incident with Arkan's Tigers who looted

16     shops and removed vehicles.  However, there were number of Muslim

17     criminals in the area.  Military security organs frequently submitted

18     information about constant armed provocations, attacks and incursions

19     in -- in the military facility of Renovica, which was armed -- from which

20     armed inhabitants were removing and stealing weapons and military

21     equipment.  As a result, SJB police launched an operation to disarm these

22     groups, detain persons and impose law.  Although a peaceful hand-over of

23     weapons had been agreed, the police came under heavy fire and those

24     responsible were detained.  Later that month, Muslim paramilitary units

25     attacked Serbs and killed about 12 people, including women and children.

Page 32917

 1     Those responsible were detained.

 2             This is a short summary, and I don't have further questions at

 3     that moment.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Hrsum, as you have noted while

 5     Mr. Karadzic read out the summary of your statement, your evidence in

 6     chief in this case has been admitted in writing, and now you'll be

 7     further examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,

 8     Mr. Tieger.

 9             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

13        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Can you remind me, please, of the exact date of the establishment

16     of the SDS party?

17        A.   If you mean the SDS of Republika Srpska, I think it was in July

18     in 1990, and the local municipal SDS organisation at Pale was established

19     a little later, sometime in September.

20        Q.   And what was the precise date in July of the SDS Republika Srpska

21     party?

22        A.   I think it was on the 12th, the 12th of July, if I'm not

23     mistaken.

24        Q.   And do -- can I assume correctly that the reason you are able to

25     recall this date with such specificity is because you are a follower

Page 32918

 1     and/or member of the SDS?

 2        A.   No.  I was not a member of the SDS at that time or later for that

 3     matter.  In 1997, we members of the police had to have written

 4     certificates from the municipal parties saying that we were not members

 5     of any political party in order for us to do the job of policeman.

 6        Q.   And since that time, Mr. Hrsum, have you become politically

 7     active in connection with or on behalf of the SDS party?

 8        A.   Now?  I didn't understand your question.  Throughout the time I

 9     was employed in the police, I was never politically active in the SDS.

10        Q.   I'm not sure what translation you received.  I said since that

11     time.  So after the period of time when you were -- when you had to

12     provide a written certificate that you were not a member, after that

13     time, did you become politically active in connection with or on behalf

14     of the SDS?

15        A.   I did not become a member of the SDS.  I did not become

16     politically active, because in the course of 1998 and 1999, all the way

17     until 2000, representatives of the international police certified members

18     of the police of Republika Srpska.

19        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, were you not on the list of SDS candidates for office

20     in 2012 in your hometown or home municipality of Rogatica?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I became politically active in the SDS

22     two years ago.

23        Q.   Well, Mr. Hrsum, maybe in future questions you can try not to

24     parse out my question with such -- with -- at that kind of level.  I

25     asked you at any time were you a member.  That is the -- and you broke it

Page 32919

 1     down into the years in which you were not, ignoring this fact.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And let me just call up 65 ter 24496 quickly,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   We see there a list of candidates for the SDS party, and that is

 5     your name reflected at number 14; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that, Mr. President.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will receive it.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6088, Your Honours.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Hrsum, your statement indicates in various places and in

14     various ways that the Muslims of Pale left the municipality voluntarily

15     despite all efforts to make them stay and the efforts of the Pale police

16     to protect them, and that's found, for example, in paragraph 22 where you

17     talk about Muslims leaving voluntarily, or in paragraph 15 where you say

18     the whole time Muslims in the Pale area were safe and went on with their

19     regular activities.

20             So is it your position, Mr. Hrsum, that there were no

21     distinctions made, no discrimination against Muslims, no distinctions

22     made between them and Serbs in Pale?

23        A.   I assert that the Muslims at Pale were safe until they left

24     voluntarily, until they changed their place of residence voluntarily.

25     They were secure.  Whether there were problems in certain enterprises or

Page 32920

 1     companies, discrimination against them, I can't say, but when it comes to

 2     the public security station and its employees, we were not aware of these

 3     problems.

 4        Q.   And further, according to you, the voluntary departure of Muslims

 5     from their homes or their places of business and so on began with or at

 6     least was reflected by the voluntary departure of the Muslim police from

 7     the Pale SJB; correct?  That is, the departure of the Muslim police was

 8     also voluntary according to you?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  That's a compound

10     question.  I think it's better if he asks them one at a time as a yes

11     answer would be ambiguous.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Do you understand the question, Mr. Hrsum?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand it well enough,

14     because one part refers to the voluntary departure of Muslims from the

15     Pale municipality, and the other refers to the termination of employment

16     of Muslim policemen.  These were two different events, and they were not

17     mutually connected.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  If you could rephrase your question,

19     Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:

21        Q.   Do you claim, as appears to be the case at paragraph 13 of your

22     statement, Mr. Hrsum, that the Muslim police voluntarily stopped coming

23     to work without explanation and then a meeting was organised and the

24     Muslim police advised that they wanted to temporarily stop coming to work

25     and handed in their weapons and official IDs on their own?

Page 32921

 1        A.   I have to give a rather lengthy reply to this question.  Some of

 2     the Muslim policemen employed in the crime service where I worked, and

 3     there were two Muslims working there, left their jobs at the Pale police

 4     station in 1991, and the other one left sometime in early 1992.  That's

 5     when they stopped coming to work at the Pale police station, which had

 6     procedures in force at the time relating to being moved from one

 7     organisational unit to another.  That's as regards those two.

 8             Also, sometime in early 1992, in January, for inexplicable

 9     reasons the commander of the Pale police station, his name was Efendic,

10     stopped coming to work.  Efendic was his last name.  I can't recall his

11     first name at the moment.  He did this for no reason.  And some 10 days

12     later, it was discovered that he had started work in the organisational

13     unit of the MUP in Sarajevo.  The -- another one who in early 1992 worked

14     as a forensic technician was sent to the training centre for staff

15     members in Vraca.  That was a school where I had gone to which was later

16     transformed into a training centre for staff members.  So he was sent to

17     a specialist course there and he never came back.  Later on we learned

18     that when he completed the course, he started work in the Stari Grad

19     public security station.  The procedure at the time --

20        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, that's more detail than necessary.  Let me shortcut

21     this by asking you whether the -- well, first of all let me say this:

22     The time that you have given for the commander of the police station

23     Efendic, stopping coming to work in January is contradicted by

24     paragraph 13 of your statement where you place that event after such

25     things as the referendum on independence and actually use a precise date

Page 32922

 1     of 17 March 1992.  But to get to the heart of the matter, let me ask

 2     you --

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I think it's only fair

 4     to the witness that this be put to him for an answer, not to make it a

 5     submission.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  That's fine.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to see your statement?  Do you have

 9     it with you?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Tieger referred to paragraph 13 of your

12     statement.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Let me -- in fairness to the witness, Mr. President,

14     the date of March 17th refers to the Muslim police in the Pale area and

15     the reference to Efendic is more amorphous, indicating simply that they

16     were preceded in that by Efendic.  I'm going to withdraw that comparison

17     and simply ask, if I may, and simply ask the witness.

18        Q.   Witness, is it your position then, without regard to the

19     specifics of how you claim some Muslims left, that the Pale police, the

20     Serbian members of the Pale police, did not disarm the non-Serb police

21     employees and remove them from service?  Do you deny that that happened?

22        A.   No.  No.  That did not happen.

23        Q.   Let me direct your attention then to a couple of documents.

24             MR. TIEGER:  First I'd like to turn to 65 ter 01495.  The second

25     page of that, please.

Page 32923

 1        Q.   And this is a report of the 24th of March, 1992, from the joint

 2     MUP Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo, referring to the removal of

 3     policemen of Muslim nationality from the Pale and Sokolac Public Security

 4     Stations on 23 March.  It indicates the number of policemen, talks about

 5     events at Pale involving the chief of the SUP, Mr. Koroman, and

 6     six active-duty policemen with rifles, and Mr. Koroman's claim that the

 7     removal of these Muslim policemen was a counter-measure against a move

 8     made by the Stari Grad Public Security Station in Sarajevo.  And then the

 9     report goes on to note that a mixed commission was formed in the joint

10     MUP to examine those claims.

11             Mr. Hrsum, this document is a reflection, is it not, of events in

12     March when in fact policemen of Muslim nationality were removed from

13     service by Mr. Koroman and the Serbian members of the public security

14     station?

15        A.   Well, what you say does not correspond to the facts.  Employees

16     of Muslim nationality asked for a meeting, six or seven of them who had

17     remained, because, as I have already explained, the others had left

18     individually, one by one.  They asked for a meeting with the management.

19     It was requested by Abdulah Kadrovic [phoen] who was in the Pale local

20     commune.  After this meeting, they expressed a wish to not have to come

21     to work temporarily, and they explained this by the problems that had

22     arisen in the city of Sarajevo and some other municipalities where there

23     had been some forcible disarming of members of the Serb police, and they

24     insisted on this.  They were very persistent.  This Abdulah Kadrovic, who

25     was a very good policeman and very influential in the Pale police

Page 32924

 1     station, on behalf of all these other policemen kept explaining that they

 2     would have to stop coming to work on a temporary basis, and they asked

 3     the chief and commander of the police station to approve this.  And it

 4     was approved, but they had -- because, of course, when a policeman is

 5     temporarily not doing their job, he has to give back his badge and his

 6     personal official weapons.  As for their private weapons, if they had

 7     hunting weapons or something like that, they did not have to give that

 8     back nor was it taken from them.

 9        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, you say "what you say," meaning me, "does not

10     correspond to the facts," but of course I was showing you a

11     contemporaneous document produced at the time, immediately after those

12     events.

13             But let me not show you only a document of the joint MUP, but

14     let's see what the Pale SJB of Republika Srpska had to say about that.

15             MR. TIEGER:  And before I do that, Mr. President, I would tender

16     the last document, 65 ter 01495.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6089, Your Honours.

20             MR. TIEGER:

21        Q.   Now, the document you're about to see, Mr. Hrsum, is dated the

22     8th of February, 1993 --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit number?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, did I not -- I apologise for that.

25     65 ter 24483.

Page 32925

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could you zoom in a

 2     little?

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   As we can see from the header, Mr. Hrsum, this is a document of

 5     the Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior Public Security Station

 6     Pale, dated 8 February 1993, and it's a record in connection with the

 7     hand-over from the former chief to the new SJB chief.  And it states:

 8             "According to its records, in the course of 1992, the police

 9     station did the following:

10             "Due to the security reasons in mid-March, the police station

11     disarmed the non-Serb police employees and removed them from service."

12             So, Mr. Hrsum, this in fact is the -- or the subsequent account

13     by the Pale police station itself about the removal of those policemen,

14     and this is in fact the accurate account of what happened to these police

15     officers, is it not?

16        A.   No.  That's not how it happened.  As I understand it, this is a

17     report of the police station commander compiled because of the hand-over

18     to another chief of the police station where he mentioned the events that

19     had taken place, but why he described them in this way, I don't know.

20     These things didn't all happen all in March.  Members of the Muslim

21     ethnicity, it was only on the 22nd of May, 1992, that their weapons began

22     to be taken away, first of all in the Renovica municipality and then in

23     other places.  So this really does not correspond to the real truth.  And

24     those six or seven policemen employed at the Pale Public Security Station

25     did not represent any kind of security threat, so I don't know why this

Page 32926

 1     was formulated in the way it was.

 2        Q.   And as you've alluded to, Mr. Hrsum, the document also notes that

 3     weapons owned by non-Serb citizens were seized and that was irrespective

 4     of whether the owners had permits for them or not, that is, whether the

 5     weapons were legally possessed or not.  That's another difference between

 6     what you said and what this document, official document by the Pale SJB,

 7     provides.

 8        A.   I can only repeat that those policemen who were of Muslim

 9     ethnicity who voluntarily handed over their weapons, I think this was in

10     the second half of March or the beginning of the second half of March,

11     they did not have their personal or hunting weapons taken away if they

12     had proper licenses for those weapons.

13             As for the citizens of non-Serb ethnicity, it was only on the

14     22nd of May that their weapons began to be confiscated.  It says here

15     that this was done in -- around the middle of March.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6090, Your Honours.

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   I'd like to look at some other contemporaneously produced

21     documents, Mr. Hrsum, and contrast that -- those documents to what you

22     have asserted in your statement, again now focusing on your claim that

23     the Muslims of Pale left their homes, their livelihoods, and made

24     themselves refugees voluntarily.

25             This Court, Mr. Hrsum, has already received evidence that at the

Page 32927

 1     time that these events were taking place in 1992, the president of the

 2     Crisis Staff of Pale advised a member of the collective Presidency of

 3     Republika Srpska and one of the war commissioners that Muslims were being

 4     forcibly moved out, including through a large number of illegal and

 5     criminal actions.

 6             Now, I'll -- you're welcome to see that document if you want.

 7     The Court just -- and the parties just saw that recently, but let me ask

 8     you if you are aware of the fact that the president of the Crisis Staff,

 9     who was also the president of the Executive Committee, was saying that at

10     the time such events were taking place?

11        A.   I am personally not aware of this, and I think it was not known

12     in the public security station either.

13             MR. TIEGER:  And I'm referring to P6034, Mr. President, and I

14     believe it's a document of July 7th, 1992.

15        Q.   I'd also like to look at what the contemporaneous documentation

16     revealed about the role of the police in moving Muslims out.  And in that

17     connection, Mr. Hrsum, although you asserted just now that you were not

18     aware -- aware of it and think it was not known in the public security

19     station either, this Court has also recently received evidence - that's

20     D00031 - that in a meeting of the Municipal Assembly on 18 June 1992, the

21     president of the Assembly and the chairman of the Executive Committee,

22     who was also the president of the Crisis Staff, objected to the

23     activities of the public security station in this respect, that is,

24     during the course of discussion about Muslims moving out, because it had

25     participated in the attempt to organise the Muslims and move them out.

Page 32928

 1             Mr. Hrsum, according to the president of the Assembly of the

 2     municipality, according to the president of the Executive Committee, who

 3     was also president of the Crisis Staff, the Pale police were involved in

 4     efforts to organise the Muslims and move them out.  That was actually the

 5     case, wasn't it?

 6        A.   There was an Assembly meeting in the second half of the month of

 7     June, when conditions were in place for the meeting to take place, and

 8     after that the Crisis Staff was disbanded.  After the marathon session of

 9     the Assembly, a decision was made that those Muslims who wanted to change

10     their place of residence should be allowed to do so.  That decision was

11     made, and the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly sent a written

12     note to the public security station.  They asked us to put in place

13     conditions and undertake measures for the secure departure of all those

14     who wanted to leave, and we were supposed to make sure that they crossed

15     the separation line safely.

16             The public security station never participated in any discussions

17     as to whether the Muslims should leave Pale or not.  The only involvement

18     was for us to provide security for all the Muslims in Pale, bearing in

19     mind the circumstances and the times as they were.

20        Q.   You also take some pains in your statement to credit the police

21     with conscientiously and scrupulously protecting non-Serbs, including

22     following through on investigations of crimes against non-Serbs.  And I

23     think we can find that in paragraph 23, referring -- that begins with

24     alleged incidents committed by Muslims against Serbs which were reported

25     to the investigating judge in Sokolac, but which then goes on to cite

Page 32929

 1     several incidents in which Muslims were victims and assert that criminal

 2     investigations were duly conducted.  And in particular, you cite the case

 3     of the murder of Muharem Hasna and Ramiz Kujovic.

 4        A.   [No interpretation]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear the witness.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Witness, I heard you say, "Da," but perhaps you can confirm that

 8     to the interpreter.  She didn't hear you.

 9        A.   It is correct that those individuals were killed in Pale, and

10     those killings --

11        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, sorry, I appreciated the fact that you responded by

12     acknowledging that you had said that in your statement, because I want to

13     get on to another aspect.  I didn't want you to explain that in detail

14     just yet because I do want to look at what actually happened with that

15     investigation.  And the reason I want to look at that is because,

16     contrary to the suggestion in paragraph 3 about the scrupulous

17     performance of duty by the Pale police in connection with this incident,

18     there was severe criticism by the chief of the criminal investigation

19     service for not -- for the not proper investigation and fulfilment of

20     their completion of the investigation in connection with that event, and

21     in particular, you were criticised for that, Mr. Hrsum.  Do you recall

22     that?

23        A.   I don't remember that I was criticised, but I remember the

24     incident.  Those people of Muslim ethnicity were killed, and the

25     investigation was carried out by the investigating judge from Sokolac.

Page 32930

 1     The records of the investigation and further instructions were in the

 2     hands of the investigating judge.  At that time, pursuant to the

 3     regulations that were in effect in our area, it was an investigating

 4     judge who carried out an on-site inspection, compiled the records of

 5     that, and based on all those documents, photographic evidence and

 6     everything else that could possibly be collected on the spot in view of

 7     the technical shortcomings were then forwarded to the investigating judge

 8     and then the investigating judge would then forward the material to the

 9     prosecutor who then decided whether any other measures should be

10     undertaken or, alternatively, there was enough to issue an indictment and

11     continue with the procedure.

12             That was the procedure that was in place.  Such on-site

13     inspections were carried out by an investigating judge accompanied by

14     police members, and all that was done at our request.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Hrsum, I think the answer to the question I had

16     asked was no, you don't remember that you were criticised.  For future

17     questions, I would appreciate it if we could follow a question-and-answer

18     format.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Let me, then, turn to 65 ter 24148 which is a report

20     on activities of the criminal investigation service in the period between

21     1 April and 31 December 1992.

22             If we could turn, please, to page 4 of the English and also 4 of

23     the B/C/S.  Scroll down toward the bottom.

24             That report states, and I'll just read two pertinent sections at

25     the -- toward the bottom of the first full paragraph on page 4 of the

Page 32931

 1     English and toward the -- in the second-to-last paragraph on -- in the

 2     B/C/S.  It states -- here it says:

 3             "Toco Hrsun," but if you look at the B/C/S, you can clearly see

 4     it's "Tomo Hrsum," as we can see from later entries, "did not write the

 5     official report in connection with the murder of Hasna Kujovic, the

 6     report in connection with the damage caused by a hand-grenade thrown into

 7     the Sandro [phoen] bar, and neither did he take the written statement

 8     from Predrag Vojnovic about the circumstances of the traffic accident he

 9     had caused or the statement of the injured party."

10             And it continues with similar criticisms on the next page, in the

11     middle of page 5 of the English and toward the bottom of the next page in

12     B/C/S.

13             "In the same vein, Tomo Hrsum interrogated several persons who

14     participated in the crime of forcible entry and theft into a shop in

15     Praca, but he never finished the case so that a criminal report was never

16     submitted or registered in spite of the significant material damage."

17             And it goes on to note you are "carrying out certain tasks that

18     were never reported to anyone without having done anything concrete, no

19     effect."

20        Q.   Now, focusing specifically on the murder of Hasna Kujovic, which

21     you cite in your statement, this official report on the activities of the

22     criminal investigation service, Mr. Hrsum, states that, in fact, you

23     didn't write the official report in connection with that murder and

24     criticises that failure as a problem of the service; correct?

25        A.   That report was written, and it was sent to the investigating

Page 32932

 1     judge, without that report -- without all the necessary documentation

 2     that should have been obtained from the doctor who inspected the body,

 3     because that was all that we could do.  We did not have an expert that

 4     could have carried a post-mortem.  So all that was forwarded.  It was all

 5     registered, and that report is in the files of the prosecutor, and I

 6     suppose that the prosecutor forwarded all that to the investigating judge

 7     who then ordered certain other measures that needed to be carried out.  I

 8     believe that exists in the archives of the prosecutor's office.

 9             It may have happened that the report was not immediately compiled

10     because there was a medical report pending, photo documentation had to be

11     prepared.  At that time we did not have a forensic technician who could

12     do that.  Before the war we had a forensic technician.  He was a Muslim,

13     but he left the public security station in January.  Everything, however,

14     was done and sent to the prosecutor's office in the form of a report, and

15     that was all registered in the log-book that was kept at the public

16     security station.  I believe that that log-book still exists and that all

17     that can be verified even today.

18        Q.   Well, it -- it hadn't -- it certainly hadn't been completed by

19     this date.  It hadn't been completed by December 5th when -- and the

20     problem with not completing it, the problem with the fact that you didn't

21     write that official report means that the report doesn't get submitted to

22     the public prosecutor; right?  A?

23             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection, I'd like to look at

24     65 ter 18828.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  If the witness can be given a chance to answer

Page 32933

 1     that question.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I'm going to direct his attention to something

 3     very indirectly and then give him a chance to answer the question.  I

 4     think that's the more efficient way to proceed.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hrsum, would you like to comment on Mr. Tieger's

 6     statement just now?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say.  I've

 8     already told you that we had to wait for an order from the judge as to

 9     whether to do something else.  We had to wait for the doctor's report on

10     visual inspection, and based on that, we compiled our report and sent it

11     to the prosecutor's office.  There were crimes that could not be

12     registered immediately in the log-book, because some facts had to be

13     collected to point to a reasonable doubt that existed.  When reasonable

14     suspicion was established, then we forwarded information to the

15     prosecutor's office in the form of a report.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   And -- and the --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please proceed.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   And the reality is, Mr. Hrsum, that the head of the criminal

21     investigation service, the head of criminal investigations, criticised

22     the failure to write the official report, not only the document we've

23     just seen but in the document I was just about to show you, 65 ter 18828.

24     Okay.

25             And if we look at the bottom of the page, we can see the

Page 32934

 1     following:

 2             [As read] "Tomo Hrsum, an inspector in the criminal service did

 3     not complete a large number of cases.  He did not write an official

 4     report on the investigation of murder of Hasna Kujovic and the

 5     investigation on site was completed in 1992 by the investigating judge

 6     and employees of this SJB, which means that the report has never been

 7     submitted to the Sokolac municipal public prosecutor."

 8             And the date of this document is December 5th, 1992.

 9        A.   This does not tally with any of the facts.  There is a report

10     with all the necessary documents.  The SJB Pale sent all that to the

11     prosecutor's office.  The investigating judge also attached his report.

12     All that was recorded in the log-book, and a copy of that exists at the

13     Pale SJB.  This does not correspond with the truth.

14             I really don't know what kind of report is this.  I don't know

15     who drafted this, who -- who it was sent to, who verified this.  What is

16     this report about?  I would like somebody to explain to me.

17             Since I was the chief of the crime prevention services and if a

18     report was written about the work of that service, it had to be sent to

19     the chief and to the superior of the organ because that report would have

20     been written by the SJB and the administration for administrative affairs

21     and then it was sent to the officer in charge.  And based on that, an

22     annual report would be drafted.  I don't know what is -- what this is.

23     If this is an annual report that had to be sent to the higher instances

24     within the MUP.  I really don't know what this is.

25             What kind of report is this?  I don't know who it was sent to.

Page 32935

 1     Every report had to be stamped.  It had to be signed.  Is this stamped?

 2     Is this signed?  Is this a statement?  What is this?

 3        Q.   If we turn to the last page, we can see that it's dated the

 4     5th of December, 1993.  It says:  "Report written by Stjepan Micic."  At

 5     the stop of the page -- well, let's see very quickly.  At the top of the

 6     page, the first page, it indicates:  "Composed by the head of the

 7     service, Mr. Micic," and then it was followed by the report on the

 8     31st of December that we previously saw.

 9             And in that connection, let me just turn quickly to --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  What's the date of this document,

11     Mr. Tieger?

12             MR. TIEGER:  You can find it on the last page, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE KWON:  And which is?  Is it not May 1993?

14             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry.  That would be correct.  My apologies for

15     that misreading of the date, or misstatement of the date.  1993 is what I

16     meant to say instead of --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do you know Stjepan Micic, Mr. Hrsum?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I don't want to interrupt the Court's

20     questions, but I was -- in that regard I was going to turn to

21     65 ter 24485, which is a list of Pale police station members.

22             JUDGE KWON:  But let's hear from the witness about this document.

23     Now you see that there is signature of Micic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Micic's signature here

25     and I can see that that report was written on the 12th of May, 1993.

Page 32936

 1             A report on the work of the crime prevention services and the

 2     report on the police organs and departments within the SJB were issued on

 3     a monthly, three monthly, and biannual basis.  They would be drafted on

 4     the 1st of January, the 1st of April, and then there would be the

 5     biannual report which was written on the 1st of July.  All those reports

 6     had to have a heading, the addressee.  If that was a proper report.  If

 7     it was just something that an individual did for his own pleasure, it

 8     didn't have to.  Every such report had to be stamped and signed by the

 9     person who drafted it, but with the Court's leave, I would like to

10     provide another comment if I may.

11             Perhaps some things about Mr. Micic.  On the eve of the war he

12     arrived at the SJB.  He -- some five or ten days before the war broke

13     out, he was appointed by the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina and that's where he worked.  All that time that he was at the

15     SJB, he always had problems.  He was a man who had graduated from the

16     school of political sciences.  He was a journalist and he didn't know

17     much about the policing and the police work.  He didn't know what was

18     necessary, what facts were necessary to collect in order to establish

19     that there was reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed.

20             I can see an example here.  My conversation or -- with several

21     individuals in Praca.  It is true at that we brought those individuals

22     in, that we took their written statements and we interviewed them, but

23     there was not an aggrieved party.  There were no damages.  We could not

24     interview all the persons at the same time over a short period of time.

25     We could not bring them in in such a short period of time because there

Page 32937

 1     were a lot of people who had stolen goods from a shop, and that shop was

 2     socially owned, and those goods were taken away.  And based on the

 3     statements that we collected and that were for the large part denied by

 4     the individuals who were suspected as the perpetrators of the crimes, we

 5     did not have any grounds to send all that to the prosecutor in the form

 6     of a crime report because all that would have been returned to us by the

 7     prosecutor's office or rejected by him.  It was not common practice to do

 8     that.

 9             Conditions had to be put in place for the proper facts to be

10     collected in order to point out that a crime was indeed perpetrated by

11     certain individuals.  Based on the indicia that we had at that time, we

12     could not draft a criminal report.  That's why I don't understand who did

13     this and who that person sent it to.

14             JUDGE KWON:  In the future, could you speak a bit -- a bit more

15     slowly.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And you don't have to be nervous and just

18     concentrate on the question, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd tender those last

22     two documents, please.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Just to be clear, I think we

24     haven't had any -- tender -- this is three documents.  I'm not sure if

25     we're -- 24481, 18828, and I'm not sure if he's offering 24485.  In any

Page 32938

 1     event, we no objection to those.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Having noted down two documents --

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Well, since -- I was going to pass on that.  We can

 4     call up 24485 very quickly.  It's a list that wasn't shown to the witness

 5     yet and just he can confirm --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  First document, could you give the number again,

 7     RS MUP report, end-of-year report.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  24481, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And 18828.

10             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit those two.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibits P6091 and P6092 respectively,

13     Your Honours.

14             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could quickly call 24485.

15        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, if you could just confirm that that is your name that

16     appears there as well as Mr. Micic and other members of the Pale SJB,

17     including the chief, Malko Koroman.

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit P6093.  Almost done, Mr. Tieger?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I noticed that, Mr. President.  I have three

22     discrete areas -- well, actually more like two areas.  One of which is --

23     is quite brief and specific and I'll try to move through those as quickly

24     as possible, if I may.  I think they're areas the Court would want to

25     hear about.

Page 32939

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much.  And Mr. Reid had provided me

 4     with a note indicating when the allotted time had been up, but we were in

 5     the middle of a discussion and I -- although I asked him to do so so I

 6     could note it specifically for the Court, I failed to do so.  So thank

 7     you for bringing that to my attention.

 8        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, I want to look at one other aspect of the Pale

 9     police's monitoring of and responding to any crimes against Muslims.  And

10     in that connection, I'd like to turn to paragraph 17 of your statement

11     where you refer to the Muslims, the hundreds of Muslims, who arrived from

12     Bratunac, and as Mr. Karadzic says in his summary, were hosted by the --

13     by Pale authorities in Pale.

14             In paragraph 17, Mr. Micic -- Mr. Hrsum, you state:

15             "There is no record or information that these citizens had been

16     abused during their stay in Pale."

17             Do you know, Mr. Hrsum, whether or not these -- or first of all,

18     do you claim that these 400 people, that none of these 400 people had

19     been abused at any time prior to their arrival in Pale, or during their

20     stay in Pale, or as they were being escorted to their ultimate

21     destination from Pale?

22        A.   Before they arrived at Pale, I can't say whether they were

23     ill-treated, whether they were subjected to some illegal measures.  I can

24     claim that during their stay at Pale, which was for about 48 hours, no

25     repressive measures were applied against any individual by the police.

Page 32940

 1     Until the moment they were provided security for the convoy, those people

 2     did not suffer any abuse.  There were about 400 of them.  I don't know

 3     the exact number, but I believe that there were about 400 of them.

 4        Q.   Well, you say there was no record or information, but this

 5     Trial Chamber has repeatedly seen the video evidence of what these people

 6     looked like upon their arrival in Visoko.  And I understand that our

 7     video capabilities are limited today, but I don't think there'll be any

 8     dispute among the parties if I say that those people were visibly beaten

 9     and bruised and gashed and limping and some -- one unable to hold down

10     any water, and in short, they were manifestly abused.

11             Now, Mr. Hrsum, that took place either before they arrived at

12     Pale, while they were in Pale, or after they left Pale under escort.  Are

13     you saying the Pale police never became aware of the beatings and abuse

14     that these people suffered?

15        A.   The Pale police did not investigate whether those people had been

16     mistreated earlier on and whether they had went through any unpleasant

17     situations prior to their arrival at Pale.  As of the moment when they

18     arrived there and as of the moment when the president of the municipality

19     spoke to those who escorted them from Bratunac, I can claim with

20     certainty that no one at Pale undertook any repressive or provocative

21     measures against those people.  They were accommodated in Pale, and they

22     were placed in the sports hall of the Romanija club.  And since the

23     premises were not too large, some of them even slept on the buses.  The

24     buses were secured because they were in the vicinity of the police

25     station.  We even organised that food be brought from the barracks at

Page 32941

 1     Pale.  The same kind of food was being delivered to the policemen on duty

 2     in the station, meaning they enjoyed the same kind of food, and I claim

 3     that with certainty.

 4             Our police did not take part in escorting them to their final

 5     destination.  The public security station personnel verified what route

 6     was to be taken.  All routes were cut off.  They found a safe route

 7     through the forest in order to bring them from Pale down to Ilijas.  That

 8     was the task that the police station took -- undertook upon itself.  The

 9     next day the route was checked in order to verify whether it was safe and

10     whether the buses can pass through.  These were very narrow forest and

11     village roads.  That was the task of the Pale Public Security Station.

12             The following day the people were transported.  Now, whether they

13     had been mistreated before that or not, all I can say is that they were

14     dressed partly in civilian clothes and partly in military close.  Some of

15     them had military jackets or military pants, whereas the rest of their

16     clothes would be civilian.  Now, whether they had been mistreated or not,

17     that's something I can't say, and the public security station at Pale did

18     not attempt to obtain information of any potential mistreatment earlier

19     on.

20        Q.   So I take it that as far as you know, no one was ever punished

21     for what happened to these people.

22        A.   I don't know whether someone was punished in Bratunac and whether

23     such people may have been from the military or civilian authorities.  All

24     I know is that there were no problems at Pale.

25             If I may, it was explained to the authorities in Pale and to the

Page 32942

 1     police that those Muslims wanted to go to Central Bosnia.  Whether that

 2     was true or not, I ...

 3        Q.   We just talked about what happened at the time of the arrival of

 4     the Bratunac -- the hundreds of people from Bratunac.  Do you claim that

 5     the members of the Pale police never beat people in custody at any time

 6     during 1992?  And in particular, I'm referring to Muslims.

 7        A.   I don't understand.  Do you mean the citizens from Bratunac or

 8     some other Muslims who were temporarily in the Romanija sports hall?

 9        Q.   No.  I was explicitly trying to move away from the event

10     involving the hundreds of people from Bratunac since you express some

11     views on that, but I was asking you if you claim that Muslims were never

12     beaten at any other time in 1992 while in the custody of the police.

13        A.   Well, I can't say that perhaps there were no abuses by those who

14     secured the premises or that maybe they allowed entry to certain

15     individuals.  As for the leadership of the Pale police station, it was

16     never made aware of it.  They were never notified by either those who

17     guarded any people or the people who were there, who were occasionally

18     visited by the chief of police.  There were strict orders that no person

19     can enter the premises unless approved by the chief of the police

20     station.

21             Whether there were any abuses is something I can't say, but I can

22     say something else:  If that had been known, if that had been

23     established, measures would have been taken definitely against the

24     employees who secured the sports hall and against those who attempted to

25     enter the premises.  That's what I can say with certainty.  As for

Page 32943

 1     anything else, I cannot be certain.  In any case, the authorities tried

 2     to prevent unauthorised entry by all means.

 3             As for the policemen of the public security station at Pale, I

 4     dare claim that they did not undertake any repressive measures against

 5     the people detained there.

 6        Q.   All right.  Please try to heed the Court's suggestion about the

 7     length of the answers, sir.

 8             What about you, Mr. Hrsum?  This Trial Chamber has received

 9     evidence, in fact - that's in P00733 - that you were personally involved

10     in beating Muslim detainees.

11        A.   I never did that.

12        Q.   And can you think of any reason why anybody would single you out

13     from other policemen as being a person involved in beatings?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we ask Mr. Tieger to show the

15     document to the witness and mention the name.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Of course he will come to that, but I would like you

17     not to interfere with the lines of questions from the Prosecutor.

18             Yes, Mr. Tieger, please continue.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Did you recall the last question I asked, sir?

21        A.   I do recall your last question.  I don't know who that could have

22     been or why they would say that.  I claim that I have never taken part in

23     such activities, and I never entered the room where those people were

24     detained.

25             MR. TIEGER:  That's at P730 -- 00733, paragraph 23.

Page 32944

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's fair to put it to the witness.  Was it

 2     admitted under seal or not?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.  I was actually calling it up.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It was Mr. Crncalo's statement.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. Sulejman Crncalo.

 6             Okay.  It gives the date.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you need to give him -- show the next page

 8     for the witness.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah.

10        Q.   If you've read that portion, sir, we're moving on to the next

11     page which contains the bulk of that paragraph.  And then just to

12     continue, in paragraph 24 it notes that Mr. Koroman arrived and

13     recognised Mr. Crncalo and ordered Mr. Hrsum from the room.  That's

14     what's alleged, sir.  Do you claim that wasn't you?

15        A.   It is me, but this is not true, and the sequence of events is not

16     described as it should be.  I recall having seen this statement.  It's

17     even on the internet.  This statement is inaccurate in describing how it

18     developed and why.  I don't know if you want me to expand.  I simply

19     wanted to say that the employees of the crime service in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time never wore uniforms and did not have

21     batons that he mentions here.  All of the equipment crime officers had

22     was the official ID, the official sidearm, and handcuffs.  There were no

23     batons ever issued to the employees of the crime service or any uniforms

24     until the war began when we were issued with standard issue military

25     uniforms that we also wore at the front lines.

Page 32945

 1             Mr. Crncalo was brought by Mr. Koroman, the chief of station,

 2     into my office.  He was taken in by some policemen, and he wanted to

 3     speak to Mr. Koroman first.  He brought him in to the office and said

 4     that a statement should be taken since he was found with a weapon, a

 5     hunting rifle.  It seemed that his possession of that weapon was against

 6     the law.  It was a type of misdemeanour, as a matter of fact.  It did not

 7     qualify as a crime.  That is why he was released.

 8             As for the other person, he did not have a weapon on him at the

 9     moment of being brought in to the police station.

10             Once the interview in the police station was over, the same

11     Mr. Koroman, because they frequently talked to him and he represented

12     himself as a Muslim representative, trying to give an impression that he

13     could speak for the Muslim side, and they frequently met in the municipal

14     building.

15        Q.   All right.  I have --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An intervention for the transcript.

17     We don't have the end of the sentence.  The witness said that

18     Malko Koroman put them in his own vehicle and took them home to their

19     houses.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

21        Q.   I have one more very discrete area, and that arises from

22     paragraph 15 of your statement, sir, in which you say:

23             "In mid-April, the RS Presidency established the Territorial

24     Defence as the armed forces of the Serbian Republic of BH which was

25     not mobilised since these forces were mobilised at a later date."

Page 32946

 1             The fact is, sir, and -- that an imminent threat of war and a

 2     general public mobilisation was ordered on the entire territory of the RS

 3     by the republic officials, and in that case by Mr. Subotic, on the

 4     16th of April, 1992, right in mid-April, the time you say it was first

 5     formed and not mobilised.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And that's P02412.  If we could turn to that

 7     quickly.

 8             As we see at the bottom, the decision, a general public

 9     mobilisation has been ordered on the entire territory of Serbian BH, and

10     that document is dated the 16th of April, 1992.

11             Further, if we turn to the next page in English, and the next

12     page in B/C/S as well, it provides a statement of reasons.  It further

13     provides that the municipal Territorial Defence Staffs that have operated

14     regularly so far shall remain in the same formation and establishment.

15        Q.   And in fact, Mr. Hrsum, contrary to the suggestion in your

16     statement, Pale was one of those municipalities where the municipal TO

17     staff was already operating regularly; correct?  By that date.

18        A.   Relatively speaking.  There were Muslim employees in those staffs

19     as well who sometimes were there and sometimes were not.  At some point

20     there was even some talk of missing documents.  I can't confirm that.  It

21     was just a rumour.

22        Q.   Well, in fact, in early April, the Pale municipality staff was

23     not only functioning, but it was operating in such a manner as to be

24     engaged in military activity against the old part of the city of

25     Sarajevo.

Page 32947

 1        A.   No.  The TO staff did not take part in the operation aimed at

 2     Sarajevo.  When the first clashes erupted on the 6th -- well, the

 3     territory of Stari Grad municipality and the border with the municipality

 4     of Srpski, Serbian Stari Grad, those two settlements have a clear

 5     division between them, between the Serbian and Muslim settlement.  The

 6     moment there were problems, the Serbian citizens who live in the

 7     direction of the Srpski Stari Grad municipality, they set up positions

 8     and asked for help and asked that members of TO units joined them.

 9     However, at the time, the TO did not have any units.  There was a

10     barracks in Pale where Serb citizens reported to mobilisation which was

11     issued by the JNA.  They were trying to man their ranks.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Can we call up 65 ter --

13        Q.   Sir, that was long answer.  I trust you've -- I haven't asked you

14     about everything the TO was doing.  I asked you about whether or not they

15     engaged in military activity against the old part of Sarajevo.  I think

16     you've answered that question.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And in that connection, I'd like to turn to

18     65 ter 15577.  This is a document of the command of the

19     2nd Military District dated the 8th of April, 1992.  And if we turn to

20     page 2 of the English and we see item under 4th Corps.  It's on page 1 of

21     the B/C/S.  It provides or it -- it states that:

22             "During the afternoon, the members of the Territorial Defence

23     from Pale municipality opened ... fire on the sector of Vratnik and on

24     the old part of the city of Sarajevo."

25        Q.   This is a contemporaneous reflection of the reality of what was

Page 32948

 1     happening with respect to the Pale TO, Mr. Hrsum, that is in

 2     contravention of what you've just told us; correct?

 3        A.   Looking at the report, one would say so.  Fire was opened.  There

 4     was sporadic shooting.  At the time, the Pale police station also sent in

 5     a reinforced patrol to a check-point.  The check-point was at the

 6     location where a check-point had been agreed upon between the public

 7     security station chief at Pale and the public security station chief at

 8     Stari Grad.  The people who self-organised and who set up guards

 9     exchanged fire.  There was even mortar fire as far as I know and

10     according to what those policemen who were there at the check-point told

11     us.  Well, that was simply not in their report.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I have nothing further, Mr. President, except to

13     tender this document.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6094, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We have about seven minutes before the break,

17     Mr. Karadzic.  Would you like to start your re-examination, if any?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is, Your Excellency, but I'll

19     need more than seven minutes.  Perhaps it is a good time for a break.

20     The last break was also a little bit early.  Perhaps this one could be

21     too.  I'll be able to conclude my cross-examination after the break -- my

22     examination.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll have a break for 45 minutes and

24     resume at 10 past 1.00.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 32949

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I have a brief question for you, Mr. Robinson, in

 4     private session.  Could the Chamber move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 32950

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll bring in the next witness.

 9             While we're doing that, Mr. Robinson, having heard the overall

10     estimated length of the cross-examination for General Milosevic, I wonder

11     whether you are now in the position to tell us when we'll hear the

12     evidence of Mr. Krstic.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  We actually made a

14     filing just a few minutes ago of our weekly witness list for next week

15     but we're proposing that General Krstic be heard on either Wednesday

16     afternoon or Thursday after the testimony of Mr. Trifkovic and Garaplija.

17     So we are estimating that on Tuesday the cross-examination, and hopefully

18     the redirect, could be completed for General Milosevic.  And then on

19     Wednesday we would have Mr. Trifkovic, Mr. Garaplija, and if there is any

20     time left over that day, General Krstic, and if not, we would have

21     General Krstic the next day.

22             And I've also notified his lawyer of that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And from next week we are supposed to

24     move to Courtroom III, but while we are hearing evidence of

25     Mr. Milosevic, we will remain in Courtroom I.  And I appreciate the

Page 32951

 1     assistance, co-operation of the Chamber that hears the Mladic case.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hrsum, you were shown document P6 in

 6     relation --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the number.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   In relation --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the exhibit number.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P6090.  Now it's all right in the

12     transcript.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   On page 40 of today's transcript, lines 1 to 6, you mentioned the

15     events in the public security station of Stari Grad which influenced the

16     events at Pale.  In your statement, in paragraph 7 you say that the SDS

17     won a landslide victory at Pale.  Did the SDS share power with the SDA

18     party at Pale?

19        A.   Yes.  It shared power with the SDA at Pale so that the deputy of

20     the president of the municipality was a Muslim.  That was how they agreed

21     to share power.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did these inter-party agreements concern other

23     government bodies and services such as the police, for example?

24        A.   Yes, but it was only afterwards, only later that these agreements

25     had to do with the MUP of Republika Srpska.  However, in the public

Page 32952

 1     security station of Pale, there was never a division of the police

 2     station between the Muslim part and the Serb part.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Hrsum, I'm interested in the pre-war period now.

 4     Why was Stari Grad mentioned?  Was there an agreement in Stari Grad for

 5     there to be a similar division of posts as in the police as at Pale?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Well, maybe it's -- excuse me.  Maybe it's

 8     relatively harmless in context, but it should be -- it's rather

 9     inappropriate to ask the question and then answer it in the --

10     immediately afterwards in the submission to the witness.  So I'd

11     discourage that form of questioning.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, can you then tell me why on page 40, during today's

15     cross-examination, you mentioned the Stari Grad Public Security Station

16     in connection with events at the Pale Public Security Station?

17        A.   In all the stations and before these agreements were made the

18     ethnic composition of the policemen reflected the ethnic composition of

19     the local population.  In Sarajevo, there was a certain number of

20     policemen doing their jobs, but in mid-February they were simply disarmed

21     and chased out of the Stari Grad police station, and they arrived at the

22     Pale police station.  However, they did not carry on their work on the

23     territory of the Pale Public Security Station but were instead sent to do

24     that work in the part of the Stari Grad municipality in Sarajevo which

25     was mostly Serb as regards population, and that was Vucija Luka and other

Page 32953

 1     areas.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now briefly look at D386 in

 4     e-court.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Please take a look at this document and tell us who issued it and

 7     what it refers to.

 8        A.   This document was issued by the Stari Grad Public Security

 9     Station in Sarajevo, and it refers to the situation and the impossibility

10     to work of members of the Serb ethnicity in that police station, and it

11     talks about how they're at risk.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Ismet Dahic is mentioned and the Green Berets in

13     point 2.  Can you tell us what you know about this?

14        A.   Well, when the reserve police force was mobilised following

15     orders from the minister of the interior, in the Stari Grad police

16     station parts of members of the Patriotic League and the Green Berets

17     were mobilised, and the chief of the station and the commander of the

18     station co-operated with the command of the Green Berets and the

19     Patriotic League, and they were even together with active-duty policemen

20     at the check-points.  I'm referring to policemen from Stari Grad.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at the last page to see how many Serb

22     policemen signed this.

23        A.   I can't see the number very well.

24        Q.   About 20?

25        A.   Some 20 or so.

Page 32954

 1        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, was it the custom when someone was received into the

 2     reserve police force or the regular police force to check up on these

 3     people, and were these members of the Green Berets and the

 4     Patriotic League scrutinised in this sense?

 5        A.   Before the war, for someone to be part of the reserve police

 6     force they had to be subjected to a check.  It couldn't be someone who

 7     had been convicted of a crime or who was being tried for a crime or even

 8     for a misdemeanour with the exception of some traffic violations and so

 9     on.  There were teachers and doctors who were in the reserve police force

10     and eminent people.  However, the persons who were in the Green Berets

11     and the Patriotic League who entered the reserve police force in

12     Stari Grad municipality were not subjected to such checks.  I had been

13     employed in the crime prevention service for a long time, and I knew

14     that -- among them were even persons who were known to the police and who

15     were prone to committing crimes.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hrsum.  After the war you worked until 2001, as it

17     says in paragraph 1 of your statement.  Did you have to go through a

18     security check?  Did you have to be certified?  You just mentioned that

19     the ITPF certifies policemen.

20        A.   Well, ITPF certified the police in Republika Srpska on two

21     occasions.  The first time was in late 1997 and early 1998, and there was

22     a rigorous certification of the police of Republika Srpska by the IE [as

23     interpretation] Federation sometime in 2000.  I personally went through

24     this certification process, and I have the certificate at home.

25        Q.   Thank you.  These events in Stari Grad municipality, which is

Page 32955

 1     neighbouring to Pale, how did it -- how was it reflected in the police

 2     station at Pale?  You spoke about this on page 40 of the transcript.

 3        A.   The events in the Stari Grad Public Security Station had

 4     repercussions in the security station in Pale.  There were comments,

 5     unlawful acts.  However, nothing changed in the work of the Pale Public

 6     Security Station.  It continued to function in the same way as before,

 7     and all communications went through the city SUP and the security centre,

 8     and those persons who had arrived were sent to the area of these

 9     neighbourhoods which were inhabited by Serbs where a municipality was

10     established later on, and there was a single station, department there,

11     set up there, which was -- actually came under the command of the Pale

12     Public Security Station.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Today on pages 41 and 42, you said that document

14     56090 --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  P6090, sorry, interpreter's correction.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   -- you said that what was stated was not correct because the

18     chronological sequence of events was incorrectly described and that the

19     Muslims were not disarmed in March but in May 1992.  Is this correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please let's have a look at D16.

22     D16, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you tell us the date here and what this refers to?

25        A.   This refers to the speech made by Malko Koroman in the public

Page 32956

 1     media, that is, in a TV broadcast, because in the community centre at

 2     Pale police -- a television station was started, and the Muslims were to

 3     hand over their weapons.  There was a consequence of the situation in the

 4     Renovica local commune when a police tactical action was carried out to

 5     disarm Muslims when two police officers were killed.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In this document, P6090, does it say that citizens of

 7     Muslim ethnicities were disarmed in March, and before this, was there any

 8     disarming of Muslims before the 22nd of May, and why was this order

 9     issued -- or, rather, what was the occasion for what happened on the

10     22nd of May, when those people from Renovica had to hand over their

11     weapons?

12        A.   Well, there were several things that influenced the planning and

13     implementation of the tactical police action.  One of these was that in

14     the Renovica area, there were armed persons in uniform moving about, and

15     up to that point such uniforms had not been seen in the former

16     Yugoslavia.

17             The second reason for this action was that there were frequent

18     reports by the military security organs to the effect that there were

19     incursions and constant attacks and incursions in the Renovica barracks,

20     which was in the centre of Renovica, and at the perimeter of this area

21     there were three or four villages from which equipment and materiel were

22     removed.  This includes weapons, ammunition, explosive devices, and so

23     on.

24             The third reason was that in the Renovica area, there were two

25     persons who could be linked to a murder which had taken place before the

Page 32957

 1     war broke out, and the corpse was found in the Pale area, but the place

 2     where the crime was perpetrated and the perpetrator could not be found.

 3     However, based on a report from the security centre in Sarajevo, we knew

 4     that these two people were the last to be seen with the victim while he

 5     was still alive.

 6        Q.   As a member of the police, were you informed about the arming,

 7     the new arming that was taking place on the territory of your

 8     municipality, and did the police demand that these weapons be handed

 9     over?

10        A.   Before the war broke out, the police had information about the

11     distribution of weapons to Muslims.  And on three occasions, the police

12     took action with representatives of the security services who were in

13     charge of these actions, because they joined in these actions to detect

14     criminal offences and submit criminal reports.  There was other

15     information about this, but it was just indicia.

16        Q.   In the transcript it's been transcribed differently.  Was that

17     the CSB, and what CSB was -- had jurisdiction over Pale, and was it

18     involved in detecting illegal arming?

19        A.   The CSB of Sarajevo with its headquarters in Sarajevo was

20     responsible for several municipalities in the Sarajevo area.  Its

21     operative purview was broader in territorial terms than just the SUP of

22     Sarajevo, and their employees were always involved in investigating

23     serious crimes, or if a public security station needed assistance and

24     asked for assistance from employees of the CSB.  In Pale we regularly

25     informed the CSB and asked for their assistance.  Until -- this was all

Page 32958

 1     until the war broke out.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you recall a name of a person who participated in

 3     the dissemination and concealment of weapons?

 4        A.   In one case it was Dulovic, a soldier who was at the barracks in

 5     Renovica.  That barracks was actually a depot of equipment and materiel

 6     more than barracks for a combat unit or troops.  This Renovic [as

 7     interpreted], together with some other persons from the Podgrab, Praca

 8     and Renovica municipalities, was detained, and this was something that

 9     the military security organs in the Victor Bubanj barracks were in charge

10     of.  After this, there was a protest by members of the Muslim ethnic

11     group both in Pale and Sarajevo.

12             The second instance was when a hodza - that is a representative

13     of the religious community - who was carrying out his religious duty in

14     the Praca area, and he had a TAM vehicle, and in his vehicle, based on a

15     report, weapons were found.

16             A third instance was very telling.  It was a shop selling sports

17     equipment in the Pale area, and this happened in early 1991.  The person

18     who was running that shop was selling weapons and also giving away

19     weapons and without the buyers of the weapons obtaining licenses

20     beforehand.  And he did not make lists of these people, nor did he inform

21     the police station of these sales, and he had to do that in order for

22     those persons to get licenses to carry weapons.  And employees of the CSB

23     participated in this, and those persons, in order to say that there is --

24     to reduce their responsibility said that they had been doing this with

25     the approval of people from the MUP, and they mentioned certain names.

Page 32959

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He mentioned Avdo Hebib.  It seems

 2     the name did not make it into the record.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we look at D14.

 5     D14.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   An imam is referred to, a Muslim priest.  Is that what you had in

 8     mind?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The date is the 28th of April.  Mr. Hrsum, is the name of

11     Senaid Memic mentioned, from Hrasnica, who distributed the weapons?

12        A.   Yes, he is mentioned.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Today my learned friend Mr. Tieger suggested to you

14     that based on the unsigned document which was not issued as part of the

15     standard protocol, the disarming took place in March.  Before these

16     weapons were discovered on the 28th of April and after the 22nd of May,

17     were Muslims disarmed?  Were they disarmed before this?

18        A.   The Muslim population was not being disarmed before this date.

19     They were not disarmed on this occasion either, at least not all of them.

20     Before the war Fazlo Gljiva took part in distributing and forwarding

21     weapons.  Allegedly, he submitted an anonymous report actually reporting

22     himself.  He stated the weapons were on his vehicle as he sold some and

23     gave away some.  There was all -- basically a clash among the members of

24     the Muslim community because some received weapons for free from him,

25     whereas others paid a lot, and they were dissatisfied with Gljiva's

Page 32960

 1     behaviour.  In order to protect himself and as we were told by the CSB,

 2     he reported that the weapons were in his vehicle.  This was only later

 3     when Fazlo, aka Gljiva, returned.  For a while he was absent.  Once he

 4     returned, he wanted to settle accounts with those who caused trouble for

 5     him later on.  So he informed certain people at the public security

 6     station to go and collect such weapons.  This was not the process of

 7     disarmament of the Muslim population en masse such as the one which

 8     followed the 22nd of May.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Today at pages 43 and 44 of the transcript, my

10     learned friend Mr. Tieger suggested to you -- or actually, you answered

11     that departure was made possible only to -- for those Muslims who wanted

12     it; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D31, please, Defence

16     exhibit.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you identify the document?  Is the date the 18th of June?

19        A.   Pardon me.  Could we please zoom in?  The document is the minutes

20     of a session of the Pale Municipal Assembly.  This one was held on the

21     18th of June, 1992.  Actually, the 15th of June.

22        Q.   And that is actually two and a half months after the outbreak of

23     war in Sarajevo.

24        A.   Yes, exactly two and a half months later.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 32961

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to page 4, item 2.  We'll

 2     see whether the same goes for the English version.  Item 2.  Can we

 3     please locate it in the English.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Tell us what was decided here.  The decision-making process is

 6     described, as well as the discussion which preceded it.

 7        A.   Yes.  I know that it was decided to approve the requests of

 8     Muslims who wanted to change their places of residence on a temporary

 9     basis.  It pertained to all those who wanted to move, and it was decided

10     only after a marathon session.  I think this particular session lasted

11     for 15 or 16 hours.  It was based on their request and based on the lists

12     which they brought in themselves on two or three occasions that they were

13     allowed to leave.  They asked the Municipal Assembly at Pale to approve

14     it.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You pointed out that it was a temporary change of

16     residence.  As regards our law, is there a difference between a permanent

17     and temporary place of residence?

18        A.   These were two different terms when describing a citizen's

19     status.  A permanent place of residence entailed being registered with

20     the competent police station where he or she would be issued with an ID,

21     passport, or any other document they may have required in order to

22     exercise their rights that they could enjoy in the given place of

23     residence.

24             The temporary place of residence is temporary.  It happened once

25     people moved from their permanent place of residence to another location

Page 32962

 1     where they stayed temporarily, either for education, work, or other

 2     personal needs.  They were duty-bound to report their new place of

 3     residence within 15 days to the competent police station.  They did not

 4     have to deregister from their original municipality.  It sufficed that

 5     one brought in his or her ID and explained why they wanted to stay in the

 6     area.  They would be issued a certificate stating that the person in

 7     question was to reside in the area for a specified period of time.

 8        Q.   Does it actually mean that it meant moving permanently?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Today in document P6091, you could see that --

11     actually, it was suggested to you on the basis of that document that you

12     did not undertake any investigations and did not submit any criminal

13     reports for the murder of Vujovic and that you did not submit a report.

14     You said that it was incorrect; right?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   You explained at some length the sequence of activities.  Perhaps

17     you can tell me this:  When does an investigating judge appear?  Once he

18     is included in the process, what is the police role as of that moment on?

19        A.   The role of the police is to collect operational information in

20     order to detect the perpetrator and to follow the investigating judge's

21     orders in view of certain measures that he deemed necessary.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at D2851 in

24     e-court.  It is a Defence exhibit.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32963

 1        Q.   Can you tell us what this is, what is being forwarded?

 2        A.   Copies of the crime register documentation.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 7 in the Serbian

 5     and 45 in the English.  Zoom in, please.  Could the other participants be

 6     left with the English version, whereas I'd like myself and the witness to

 7     be able to see the Serbian only.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you tell us what is in the first column, report, the second,

10     reported, and then we have the dates; correct?

11        A.   Yes.  Could we please zoom in.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   What is in entry 22?

15        A.   It is a case file forwarded to the municipal public prosecutor's

16     office for the murder of Muharem Kujovic.

17        Q.   Who reported it?

18        A.   The public security station.

19        Q.   By having done that, was the case file effectively handed over to

20     the judiciary?

21        A.   Yes, formally and legally speaking.  However, it was up to the

22     public security station to undertake all measures within its competence

23     in order to discover the perpetrator.  This case file was not closed by

24     virtue of having sent it to -- the entire case file, that is, that was

25     necessary to be forwarded to the judiciary, but it was still upon the SJB

Page 32964

 1     to undertake its measures in order to discover the perpetrator or some

 2     other facts pertaining to the crime in question.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  How does this tally with the position expressed in

 4     document P69 -- 6091, where it is stated that you did not do what you

 5     were supposed to?

 6        A.   What do I know?  It's probably not true what's in the document.

 7        Q.   It is stated there that you didn't submit a report concerning

 8     Haso.

 9        A.   We submitted a report in the case of Haso as well.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 8 in the Serbian

11     and 59 in the English.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Before -- let's go back to the page.  Can we see the

13     English page as well.  I don't think it was translated in full.  Do you

14     see the full name, father's name, place of birth, and residence?

15     Let's -- we can collapse the English now.  But "not known --" probably

16     underneath notation of "Not known" or whatever, I see entries number 1

17     and number 2 which are not translated.  Could you read out that part for

18     us.  We can zoom in a bit further.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Sir, the Chamber would like you to read out something.  Perhaps

21     we can clarify it.  Is it the name?  Is it in that box next to 22?

22        A.   Muharem Kujovic, the victim, Kujovic.  There was his place of

23     residence, and it is also the place where the murder took place, and we

24     have the name of the victim there.  Here we have who submitted the

25     report, the name of the victim.  We don't see who it was sent to.  On the

Page 32965

 1     other page we have the measures undertaken and whether any orders were

 2     issued by the investigating judge.  Perhaps I may explain.

 3             It is a large book, a large register, say 70 by 40 centimetres.

 4     That is the criminal register.  It was kept at Pale as of 1975, and it

 5     was used all the way until 2006, when I left the service, and I think

 6     they still use it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hrsum, do you see number 1 and number 2?  What I

 8     want you to do is read out those two items, number 1 and number 2, in the

 9     row of 23.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 23?

11             JUDGE KWON:  If the usher could show the -- Lizdek or -- Milo --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ranko Makic [phoen], Ivo Andric

13     Street number 16, Pale.  These individuals submitted reports to the SJB.

14     In those cases, there was no on-site investigation.  These individuals

15     reported crimes to the SJB.  There is a date when the report was filed,

16     when it was registered, and here is the aggrieved party, the person whose

17     vehicle was stolen.  At that moment it was not known who the perp was.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I would leave it -- leave it at that.  Please

19     continue, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we go to the following page in Serbian, and then can we go to

22     page 59 in English.  Let's see what happened to Hasim [as interpreted].

23     8, Serbian; 59, English.

24             Under 46 in Serbian -- can this be zoomed in.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32966

 1        Q.   Who is it who reported the numbers 46?

 2        A.   It was the SJB, because its employees carried out an on-site

 3     investigation.

 4        Q.   Who was the aggrieved party?

 5        A.   I believe it was Hasim Kujovic from Pale, if I'm not mistaken.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  What was the crime?  You will see it in the last

 7     column.

 8        A.   A murder.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This can be removed.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Sir, you were asked whether you were politically engaged.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On line 13, the name should be

14     Hasna.  It's a lady's name, not Hasim.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Well, that's -- okay.  Now I really have to object,

16     and I -- maybe this is something we take outside the -- we discuss

17     outside the presence of the witness, but of all the times not to use a

18     leading interjection and testify as the accused is accustomed to doing,

19     that would have been it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?  It's not that you are

21     giving evidence.  In order to rectify, you have to ask the witness

22     instead of stating yourself.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When it comes to Hasna, it was my

24     intervention on the transcript.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 32967

 1        Q.   And when it comes to the question, I said:  Earlier today you

 2     were asked on page 35 whether you were politically engaged, and you

 3     answered that you were politically engaged in 2012.

 4        A.   And that is correct.

 5        Q.   First of all, let us establish this:  Line 13, page 80.  What is

 6     the name of the aggrieved party?  It has been misrecorded for a number of

 7     times.  Is it Hasim Kujovic or Hasna Kujovic?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  It's a -- I think that can be confirmed by the

 9     witness, because it is what he said.

10             Yes, Mr. Hrsum.  Did you say Hasim or Hasna?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hasna.  That's what I said, Hasna.

12     I did not utter the name Hasim.  Hasim was never a victim.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, does the crime register accurately reflect the name

15     Hasna?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And now, you confirmed Mr. Tieger's question that you

18     were indeed politically engaged in 2012.  I'm asking you this:  Were you

19     professionally engaged and politically engaged at the same time, and if

20     you were, when was that?

21        A.   I was never professionally and politically engaged at any time

22     before 2012.  At that time, I was pensioned off.

23        Q.   And now on page 36 there was a reference to discrimination.  What

24     was the basis for bringing in individuals and remanding them in custody,

25     primarily those who were of non-Serb ethnicity?

Page 32968

 1        A.   Only crimes before the incident that happened on the 22nd of May.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Was Islam religion ever the grounds for remanding

 3     people in custody?

 4        A.   No, never.

 5        Q.   On page 37, it was not fully clarified whether those two or three

 6     police officers and crime investigation inspectors left the police or

 7     whether they were transferred to another unit.  On page 38, you were

 8     interrupted when you started your sentence with the words "The procedure

 9     to transfer people."  Please explain.  They left the police or were they

10     transferred?

11        A.   If you are referring to the two employees of the crime prevention

12     service and their commander who had been appointed upon agreement, his

13     name was Muslim, Efendic.  I will answer this:  The procedure for a

14     person to be transferred from one unit to another unit, irrespective of

15     the fact that both units were parts of the Sarajevo SUP, implied the

16     following:  First of all, the head of the organisational unit had to

17     agree to hire that person.  The head of the organisational unit that that

18     person was leaving also had to be obtained [as interpreted].  All that

19     was confirmed by the secretary of the SUP, and that was what constituted

20     the regular transfer of one person from one unit to another.  All those

21     three individuals who were transferred immediately started working in

22     Sarajevo, one in Ilidza, one in Stari Grad, and I believe that Efendic

23     started working in the republican SUP.

24        Q.   Who was the secretary of the city SUP at the time?  Was that

25     procedure complied with?

Page 32969

 1        A.   It was Mico Stanisic, and that procedure was not complied with.

 2     It was not complied with at the public security station at Pale either.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  6034 is a document that was mentioned.

 4     Zdravko Cvoro, the president of the Executive Board, sent some objections

 5     to the effect that some Muslims participated in the forcible transfer of

 6     some other Muslims.  Somebody provided that information to Mr. Cvoro.

 7     Did it prove to be correct?

 8        A.   You mentioned that Muslims participated in the forcible transfer

 9     of Muslims.  I don't know about that.

10        Q.   Policemen.

11        A.   Police officers never took part in forceable transfer.  They

12     never advocated forcible transfer of Muslims.  Police officers were only

13     engaged in providing security.  They only took measures in order to

14     protect Muslims in the area.  As far as the letter of the president of

15     the Executive Board is concerned, I must say that at the beginning of the

16     war and the course of the war, the local authorities always wanted to

17     place under their control the local police security stations.  They

18     wanted to issue them orders as to how they would do their policing work.

19     It was not just the case in Pale.  It spilled over to other

20     municipalities as well.  They also wanted to place under their control

21     those military units that were set up later.  However, no single public

22     security station was under the control of the local authorities.  They

23     reported to their superiors in the ministry, i.e., in the MUP, which were

24     the CSBs along the lines of control and ultimately to the minister.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can P6034 be displayed?  Let us see

Page 32970

 1     who Mr. Cvoro had in mind when he drafted his letter.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, could you please read the document.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask those who can

 5     follow in English to look at the document off the screen, i.e., could the

 6     English be collapsed.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask that the document

 8     be shown on the screen for their benefit.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He addresses the War Commission of

11     Pale municipality --

12             JUDGE KWON:  If you'd like the witness to read out the document,

13     we need to show the English page to the interpreters.  We all have it, so

14     why don't you put the question to the witness.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I wanted,

16     for all the other participants in the trial to be provided with the

17     off-screen copy of the document.  Could you please read the document for

18     yourself.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, you know the situation.  Interpreters do not

20     have access to the English page independently.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, maybe I did not

22     say this on time.  I didn't ask the witness to read the document aloud.

23     I just wanted him to look at it, and then once he had -- has looked at

24     it, I will have a question to put to him.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What is your question?

Page 32971

 1             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, but is there some reason we're not

 3     looking at the document at the same time and have it available in

 4     English?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No.  We did that --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  -- for the benefit of the witness so that he could

 8     read it.  But you have access to English page.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  No, I do.  I just wanted the participants to.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, earlier today Mr. Tieger suggested to you that the

13     police participated in the forcible transfer of Muslims from Pale

14     contrary to the decision which was passed on the 18th of June, the one

15     that we have seen today.  When you look at this document, would you say

16     that it were the police who did that or is it, rather, that Mr. Cvoro is

17     complaining?  What is Mr. Cvoro complaining about?  Does the document say

18     that the police were involved in that?

19             MR. TIEGER:  I object, Mr. President.  Either the witness is

20     being asked to simply recite what he sees in the document or he's being

21     asked for an interpretation of this document in a manner that is outside

22     the province of most witnesses, unless they're called as some kind of

23     expert.  So I don't -- I mean, in -- for previous questions, Mr. Karadzic

24     has been asking the witness for information that he might have had, and

25     this is straying into an area that's not appropriate.

Page 32972

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Hrsum, you may answer to the question what

 2     Mr. Cvoro was complaining about.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I'm looking at this document,

 4     and I didn't know anything about its existence, Mr. Cvoro is complaining

 5     about the arbitrariness, about the lack of organisation, about the

 6     forcible transfer of Muslims on the part of the police which caused some

 7     problems.  However, his ultimate request is for the municipal

 8     authorities -- or, rather, my impression is that the municipal

 9     authorities managed to exercise control over the police station, and he

10     refers to some other presidents of the Executive Boards that had the same

11     problems.  However, the police station acted on their instruction, and

12     they did it in a safe way.  Nobody was hurt.  Nobody experienced anything

13     bad among those who wanted to move out of their own will -- will.

14             That transfer process did not last only a day or two.  It lasted

15     much longer.  Some problems arose, and some Muslims were even afraid that

16     they would not be able to move out because the municipal authorities had

17     not set up their commissions on time, so the lists of the population were

18     not compiled, i.e., their immovable properties that they were leaving

19     behind.  This is why the process took somewhat longer.  And later on --

20     okay.  It lasted a bit longer, that.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at the document once again.  Tell us

23     where it is that Mr. Cvoro pinpoints the police as perpetrators?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, that's why I

25     wanted the witness to have a good look at the document and give us his

Page 32973

 1     answer, not as an expert but as a police officer.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The point you were -- objected to was how you put

 3     the question, not the content.  Refrain from asking a leading question.

 4             Can you answer the question?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see here that he mentions

 6     the police anywhere here.  He does not mention the police.  The only time

 7     he mentions the police is when he says that the police station does not

 8     report to them directly.  It would probably be better that -- if they had

 9     the police station under their authority.  I don't see --

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  You as a police officer, what inferences would you

12     make?  Who is it that Mr. Cvoro pinpoints as the perpetrators of these

13     crimes?

14        A.   When it comes to those criminal acts, he pinpoints individuals

15     or -- or, rather, he points to some groups or one may even conclude that

16     he pinpoints at some Muslims who put pressure on each other to move out.

17     He is not very specific in that respect.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I just want to continue my objection, and I think

20     the last answer reflects the impropriety of this exercise asking this

21     witness basically to offer some speculations about this document.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to respond?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger was very express and

25     confronted Mr. Hrsum with the fact that the police participated in

Page 32974

 1     unlawful transfer.  I'll tell you the exact page.

 2             Now, I'm trying to establish who it is that Mr. Cvoro complains?

 3     Who does he pinpoint as perpetrators?  Let's leave aside the fact that he

 4     wants control over the police.  Does he pinpoint the police as the main

 5     culprits, and if he does, where, in what line?  This arises from the

 6     Prosecutor's suggestions during his cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I was reading the questions by Mr. Tieger, but I

 8     don't think he put the question it was police that wilfully forced the

 9     population out.

10             Did you ask such a question, Mr. Tieger?  43, 44.

11             MR. TIEGER:  I'm looking at the exact language.  It is correct

12     that I addressed --

13             JUDGE KWON:  A role of the police.

14             MR. TIEGER:  -- that's right, addressed these documents, but I

15     simply recited the language in the document and asked if that didn't

16     reflect the situation.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you referred to P6034 --

18             MR. TIEGER:  That's right.

19             JUDGE KWON:  -- and lines 20, 21, that said --

20             MR. TIEGER:  And then --

21             JUDGE KWON:  That document revealed about the role of the police

22     in moving Muslims out.  So it's fair enough to ask whether this document

23     pinpointed the --

24             MR. TIEGER:  When I --

25             JUDGE KWON:  -- police but --

Page 32975

 1             MR. TIEGER:  There's a bit of mixing and matching here by --

 2     that's why I was looking at the transcript.  I pointed to this document

 3     in the context of asking questions about Muslims being forced out and the

 4     reflections on that.  I turned to D00031 in connection with the

 5     complaints of the president of the Assembly and president of the

 6     Executive Committee and president of the Crisis Staff about police

 7     involvement.  So Dr. Karadzic seems to be turning to another document and

 8     trying -- I was -- that's why I was looking to see whether there was

 9     explicit reference to this document in that connection, but I do know

10     there was a reference to the language of D00031, which is not being

11     addressed at this moment.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Just one more question, Mr. Hrsum.  You saw the statement of

16     Sulejman Crncalo who says that on the 3rd of March, 1992, there were

17     beatings in the police.  What was the ethnic make-up of the police at the

18     Pale police station on the 3rd of March, 1992?

19        A.   On that date the ethnic make-up was unchanged.  It was the same

20     as before, when both Muslims and Serbs -- I don't think we had any Croats

21     perform police tasks.

22        Q.   Did any of the Muslim policemen confirm that on the 3rd of March

23     someone was beaten up because of their ethnicity or religion?

24        A.   There was never such a complaint at the police station, nor did

25     it ever come up, nor was it ever recorded by anyone, nor did anyone ever

Page 32976

 1     discuss any such thing.  At the entrance to the police station there were

 2     two duty officers, and it was always two members of the Serb ethnic group

 3     and two Muslims who did that so that this cannot be correct.  It was

 4     never anything that was confirmed or not confirmed or anything that was

 5     acted upon.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Hrsum.  I have no

 7     further questions.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I have just a couple questions arising in connection

10     with the register, Mr. President, if the Court would permit.  You may

11     recall that Mr. Karadzic took the witness's -- took the witness to

12     certain entries and I have a couple of questions about those particular

13     entries.  I can make it brief if the Court wishes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

17        Q.   Mr. Hrsum, in paragraph 23 of your statement -- is it 23?  That's

18     where you make reference to the criminal report filed in connection with

19     the murder of Muharem Hasna and Ramiz Kujovic.  Do I understand, because

20     you reference them together, that those people were killed at the same

21     time?

22        A.   No, they were not killed at the same time.

23        Q.   So they were killed at different times?

24        A.   At different times.

25        Q.   And why is it called an unknown perpetrator for three different

Page 32977

 1     murders?

 2        A.   Because we didn't discover who the perpetrator was.  We didn't

 3     have into -- we didn't have any information as to who had done this and

 4     under what conditions.

 5        Q.   It says a criminal report was also filed against an unknown

 6     perpetrator.  Perpetrator singular, report singular.  Is that what

 7     happened or were there multiple reports?

 8        A.   There were multiple criminal reports as you can see from the

 9     log-book.  So these reports were submitted individually, but as the

10     perpetrator was unknown, it implies neither the singular nor the plural.

11     It refers to each perpetrator of each criminal offence, or several

12     perpetrators, but this was the form of words that was normally used.

13        Q.   And, in fact, the date of submission of the report listed in

14     item 46 on page 59 of the English was subsequent to the report by

15     Mr. Micic which we saw earlier; correct?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload D2851.  Item 46, page --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's 8 in Serbian.  English, 59.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  If it's taking too much time, I can let the

19     document speak for itself unless it needs to be translated.  Okay.  It's

20     up now.

21        Q.   Can you just read the dates of the submitter -- of the submission

22     and the dates of the report.  And tell us quickly again what those two

23     dates represent.

24        A.   The first date, I don't see it up there, but I think --

25             JUDGE KWON:  If you -- if you touch it, it -- all right.

Page 32978

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry.  I apologise.  The first

 2     date is the date when information was received or when the criminal

 3     offence was learned of.  The second date is the date of submission of the

 4     final file to the public prosecutor's office, although the public

 5     prosecutor's office was aware based on the log-book of what was going on.

 6             Mr. Micic, if it has to do with when he -- I think that his

 7     report is dated March 1993, if I recall correctly.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I have nothing further, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we clarify this?  Can we look

11     at Micic's report, P6092, only to establish the chronology of dates, to

12     see whether Mr. Hrsum spoke correctly.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's in our evidence.  Would you like

14     to spend time for that?  I think it's in March or May in 1993.  You can

15     leave it there.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we established that this was

17     after the 20th of May, 1992, then everything is all right, and I don't

18     need to go into it any further.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not in the position to confirm that.  Let us see

20     it, then.

21             Could you remind us of the exhibit number, Mr. Tieger, Micic

22     document?

23             MR. TIEGER:  It was either 6092 or 6091.  I have them under ERNs

24     at the moment.  My recollection, however, I mean if it's going to cut to

25     the chase, is that we addressed that before ourselves as May 12, 1993,

Page 32979

 1     and I think that was -- it's not only in the document itself but it's on

 2     the record at least once.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It was the document you misread the date.

 4     It's Exhibit P6092, 12 of May, 19 -- let us see the date.  Last page,

 5     probably.  So 12th of May, 1993.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So 51 weeks after the report

 7     submitted by Hrsum.  I just wanted to establish that, that it was a year

 8     later and not before, as Mr. Tieger suggested in his cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The dates speak for themselves.

10             That concludes your evidence, Mr. Hrsum.  On behalf of the

11     Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

12     it.  Now you are free to go.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Is the next witness ready to come in?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Then let's continue.  While we are waiting for the

18     next witness, going back to the issue I raised with respect to the

19     witness from Portugal, I think we can file it publicly with a

20     confidential annex.  Did you -- could you explore the possibility and get

21     confirmation from -- from the embassy.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             THE ACCUSED:  If I was asked, I would suggest to start fresh

24     tomorrow.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I wanted to conclude two witnesses by tomorrow just

Page 32980

 1     in case.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  We can do it tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  You never know.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

 6     please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please make yourself comfortable.

10                           WITNESS:  SRDJAN SEHOVAC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Sehovac.

15        A.   My respects, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Please bear in mind that we both have to pause before question

17     and answer so that the interpreters and the court reporters can interpret

18     and record everything.

19             Did you make a statement to the Defence team?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please let's look at 1D7054 in

22     e-court.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this the statement you see before you now?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 32981

 1        Q.   Are you aware that some parts had to be excluded as irrelevant to

 2     this case on the order of the Chamber?

 3        A.   I am aware that some parts have been excluded.

 4        Q.   Have you read this statement and signed it?

 5        A.   Yes, I have.

 6        Q.   Does it reflect correctly what you said, and is there anything

 7     you would change now?

 8        A.   It reflects correctly what was said, but there are some typing

 9     errors.  For example, page 2, point 4, second paragraph.

10        Q.   Can you tell us what the mistake is?

11        A.   It says here "SDB."  It should be "SNB," because the State

12     Security Service, as you know, was operating before the war, and the SNB

13     was established --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Or the SDB, that is, interpreter's correction.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was established after that.

16             Another error has occurred.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   In the transcript -- SDB was before the war; is that correct,

19     sir?

20        A.   Yes.  And in wartime the SNB was established.  And in point 33,

21     the letters have been switched again.  It should say here "SDB" and not

22     "SNB."  And the same error occurred in point 34:  "Did you or the SNB

23     have ..."  It should be:  "Did you or the SDB have ..."

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Sehovac, both of these interventions, does it

25     refer to the questions or to your replies?

Page 32982

 1        A.   No, I am referring to my responses, because we need to have

 2     precise information as to what service was involved.

 3        Q.   Is there anything else?

 4        A.   On page 12, point 36(B), the SS tattoo should be deleted.  And

 5     instead of "Handzar Division" it should say "Young Muslims Unit," and

 6     this refers to Mr. Izetbegovic and his past.

 7        Q.   Is this the sentence:  "Very often the fact was mentioned" --

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  That's it.  So that should be deleted.  He had an SS

 9     tattoo and he was a member of the Handzar Division.  No, that's

10     incorrect.  He was a member of the Young Muslims Unit.

11        Q.   So the tattoo and SS, that should be deleted?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  Up to "that he was."  And page 36(B), in (B) again the

13     letters say "SDB" instead of "SNB."  And I have no further comments to

14     make as regards this statement.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Sehovac, if I were to put the same questions to

16     you today, would your answers to them be basically the same as in this

17     statement?

18        A.   Yes.  Basically they would be the same.  I would not change

19     anything.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I tender

21     this statement and the associated documents?

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll deal with associated exhibits separately.

23     We'll admit the statement first.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2852, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  To save time, the Chamber has the following

Page 32983

 1     questions with respect to 1D921, 1D6133, and 1D6167.  I note that there's

 2     no English translation have been uploaded.  So if they are uploaded now,

 3     the Chamber didn't have time to see them, so I would like you to lead

 4     live about those ones.  And the 1D6147 is included in para 20.  That

 5     should be redacted.  And the Chamber has doubt as to the relevant --

 6     relevance of 1D6132, 1D6134.  So in order to tender them, after

 7     explaining the relevance to the Chamber, I would like you to lead live as

 8     well when the Chamber satisfied with its relevance.  And with respect to

 9     6136, which is an intercept, you should lead with the witness how he was

10     able to authenticate that intercept, whether he himself was an intercept

11     operator or otherwise.

12             Mr. Sehovac, we are about to adjourn and continue tomorrow

13     morning, but as you may be already aware, you are not supposed to discuss

14     with anybody else about your testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.

17             The hearing is adjourned.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.45 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day

20                           of January, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.