Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33732

 1                           Friday, 15 February 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at the 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I want to address a

 7     matter that arose in court yesterday and that implicates the issue of

 8     protective measures that we discussed somewhat earlier, so I ask to move

 9     into private session, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could the Chamber move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33733











11  Pages 33733-33741 redacted.  Private session.















Page 33742

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Since the issue of third-party statements was

 9     raised, probably it's better to deal with now.

10             Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Robinson, in relation to the next witness, I

11     noted that the Defence added 6 paragraphs and 11 associated exhibits.  I

12     think if my memories correct, the Defence is planning to tender nine

13     third-party statements as associated exhibits, but to my understanding,

14     it has been the Chamber's practice that it rarely admitted third-party

15     statement as associated exhibits, so it's difficult -- if we allow it, it

16     may be a slippery slope to admit third-party statement through that

17     regime.  And it's very difficult for the Chamber to find in what context

18     or in what sense the witness is confirming or commenting on the

19     third-party statement.  So if you'd like to tender third-party statement,

20     I would like you, the Defence, to lead live so that the Chamber can

21     assess the relevance and the authentic -- authenticity as well, the

22     veracity of the content through the witness.

23             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I didn't know if the Court was about to move on to

25     call the witness in.  I just want a quick notification to raise for the


Page 33743

 1     Court.  Actually, to some extent implicated by our recent -- or

 2     implicates our recent discussion.

 3             Yesterday the Court --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  The Court asked yesterday for advanced

 6     notification of objections to documents.  In the case of an upcoming

 7     witness, Mr. Sarenac, the Prosecution has been reviewing in excess of 200

 8     associated exhibits proposed to be tendered by the Defence.  There will

 9     be numerous objections to those, but the review of those documents alone

10     has been a time consuming exercise.  I believe Ms. Edgerton would be

11     prepared to discuss those in advance, for example, on Monday, but I

12     wanted to alert the Court and -- and the Defence to the fact that such

13     objections were coming, and the Court in particular because it may wish

14     to conduct a preliminary review of those documents since it is an

15     extremely time consuming exercise to get a grip on that voluminous

16     material.  So I wanted to let the Court know in advance.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Shall we bring in the witness.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Savkic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

22                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV SAVKIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Savkic.

Page 33744

 1        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Just one question:  The people who demolished the mosque, were

 3     they identified?

 4        A.   You mean in Vlasenica?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   No.  They have never been identified.

 7        Q.   Did the police launch an investigation and try to uncover the

 8     perpetrators?

 9        A.   I believe they did, but this was done in such an unprofessional

10     way, because all the windows, around 5 -- 2.500 windows in Vlasenica were

11     demolished, which means that people who set off this explosion obviously

12     didn't know anything about that, and it was generally a disastrous event

13     for the town.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

15     questions at this juncture.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, by this the Defence is not tendering

17     1D13045 and 1D13046?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we redact those paragraphs or -- or at

20     least reference to the document?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  We can redact the reference to the

22     documents.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is in paragraph 77.

25             JUDGE KWON:  77 and 78.

Page 33745

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And so it would be from the word "document" down

 2     to the end of the paragraph.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So it's including the -- the additional

 5     statements.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  In case of para 77, from "document" until the end.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And 78?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think it would have to stop after the word

10     "jihad."

11             JUDGE KWON:  "Jihad."  Make a full stop at "jihad."

12             Do you follow, Mr. Robinson?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

15             Then, Mr. Savkic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief has

16     been concluded, most of which was done in writing in lieu of your oral

17     testimony.  Then you will be now cross-examined by the

18     Office of the Prosecutor, but before doing so, yes, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I just noticed as the Court was making its inquiry

20     that the witness was thumbing through a pile of documents.  I think that

21     the first -- the one on top is in fact his statement.  There were other

22     documents, so I think the witness should be cautioned if he's going to

23     look at and make reference to documents during the course of his

24     testimony he should alert the Court first before looking at those.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger, and I will leave it to


Page 33746

 1     Ms. Sutherland.  So if --

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour, and thank you,

 3     Mr. Tieger.

 4             Your Honours, forgive me for not seeking leave yesterday to

 5     remain seated while I addressed you, and I --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  By all means, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek leave to conduct my examination seated.

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

 9        Q.   Mr. Savkic, can you -- can you put the -- all the documents that

10     are on the table which are not your statement, can you put them away from

11     the table, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Let me be clear, Mr. Savkic.  It's fine for you to

13     have your statement with you now, but in order to consult other

14     documents, please let us know before you'd like to -- before you see the

15     document.  Do you understand that, sir?  Yes.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.  However, these documents are

17     related to paragraph 78.  Yesterday, the lady said that she couldn't see

18     the context out of which an assertion about al-Qaeda was extracted, and

19     because of that, I brought all these three documents that clearly

20     indicate that.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The reason I asked you to put down the documents is

22     to see whether you are able to answer the question from the top of your

23     head or you have to rely on certain documents.  It relates to your

24     credibility, et cetera.  Do you understand that, sir?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  I do.

Page 33747

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Then you are free to look at your statement at any

 2     time.

 3             Let's continue.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Savkic, I have very limited time this morning, so I would ask

 6     you to listen to the question and focus on the question and answer the

 7     question only.  If I need you to elaborate on your answer, then I will

 8     ask you a follow-up question.  Do you understand?

 9        A.   I understand.

10        Q.   You previously testified before this Tribunal over five days in

11     January 2006 in the case of Momcilo Krajisnik.  That's correct?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   Have you reviewed that transcript at any time since you

14     testified?

15        A.   Well, yes and no.  Since it was first translated from Serbian

16     into English and then from English back to Serbian, some sentences make

17     no sense, but I do recall this, that testimony.

18        Q.   Mr. Savkic, the short answer to that would have been yes.  You

19     have reviewed it.  That's correct?

20        A.   Yes and no.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue, Ms. Sutherland.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Your statement that's just been admitted that you gave to the

24     Defence, when did you provide that statement?

25        A.   Well, perhaps some ten days ago, and there were some minor

Page 33748

 1     changes that were made a couple of days ago.  They were more grammatical

 2     changes and some clarifications.

 3        Q.   When were you first approached by the Defence?  When did you

 4     first speak to the Defence?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know what you mean by "the Defence," but three or

 6     four months ago with Mr. Marko.  I don't know.  If you're referring to

 7     this part of the Defence.

 8        Q.   Marko Sladojevic, the gentleman sitting over there?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   Have you spoken to anyone else on the Defence team about your

11     statement?  Investigators, other lawyers?

12        A.   Not with lawyers, but I did with investigators, yes.

13        Q.   Who was that?

14        A.   Luka Bogdanovic was his name, Luka Bogdanovic.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, my apologies.  Can I interrupt here?

16     I have one thing that I forgot to tell Mr. Karadzic.  So we go back to

17     his examination-in-chief.

18             With respect to para 35 and 36, more specifically last sentence

19     of para 35 and -- or para 36, it was unclear to me on what basis the

20     witness had knowledge of -- or could reach that conclusion referred to in

21     these paragraphs, so before Ms. Sutherland continues her

22     cross-examination, I would like to clarify with the witness.  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should I or you?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.  It's your examination.

25                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]


Page 33749

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Savkic, in your statement you said that

 2     Izet Redzic informed Izetbegovic about your negotiations, I think you

 3     said negotiations, about an establishment of three municipalities and

 4     that Izetbegovic told him to stall as much as possible and to try to lead

 5     the Serbs by creating false impressions.  How did you find out about

 6     that?

 7        A.   Well, I was representing the Serb people and Redzic was

 8     representing the Muslim people and we were two of the six mean who were

 9     involved in reaching that agreement.  He was a very talkative person, so

10     I assume that in a conversation with one of his friends, he said that he

11     asked this Mr. Izetbegovic.  As for the correspondence between him and

12     Izetbegovic was no secret at all.  He was the President of the

13     Executive Board, so all the correspondence could be found in the

14     municipal archives.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, as for the others, for example, the president of

16     municipality, did he have an insight into that archives?

17        A.   Yes.  President Stanic would have been one of those people, and I

18     would like to add that he is still a good friend.

19        Q.   In paragraph 36, it is said that it was in their interest not

20     only to stall the negotiations but to have the Muslims leave Vlasenica,

21     and you said that it had been ordered and that the probable purpose was

22     an attack on Vlasenica.  On the basis of what did you reach that

23     conclusion?

24        A.   It says clearly here that after the joint session of the

25     Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica held on the 13th of April, 1992, he and

Page 33750

 1     Stanic went after the meeting to Tuzla to try to explain to the refugees

 2     and to tell them to come back from Tuzla to Vlasenica.  However, after

 3     some time, Izet Redzic didn't want to come back, whereas President Stanic

 4     returned.

 5             In the room where Izet Redzic was working, a log-book was found

 6     and there's this famous page dated the 13th of April which clearly

 7     indicates, and it's written here and it's been admitted into this court,

 8     that he had asked chief of Tuzla municipality, Beslagic, whether these

 9     Muslim refugees should remain there temporarily or permanently.  So that

10     was an indication of an intention to manipulate these unfortunate

11     refugees.  And then in the corner of that page there is one very

12     symptomatic thing, and that is that a professor was asked to take

13     students out of the secondary school centre and to bring a motor and an

14     inductor into the school.

15             All of us who know at least something about warfare and

16     equipment, et cetera, an inductor has only one purpose and one purpose

17     alone, and that is a device that is used to activate explosives.  In

18     addition to that, in the bottom right part of that page from his notebook

19     is depicted a clear structure of how the authorities would be taken over

20     in Vlasenica and who should be involved in that, and it is also written

21     that all this operation was to be directed by the General Staff, and that

22     was the document admitted here in this courtroom, and I have documents to

23     that effect.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would this suffice,

25     your Excellencies?


Page 33751

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I will leave it at that.

 2             Mr. Savkic, you have your statement with you now.  Could you take

 3     a look at para 34.  First sentence reads:

 4              "On 31st of March, the municipality of Milic adopted a decision

 5     to establish the municipality of Milici.  Did you mean to refer to Milic

 6     or Vlasenica?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  That's a historical fact.  The

 8     municipality was established at that time, however, it did not start

 9     working until the 13th of April.

10             JUDGE KWON:  No.  My question is whether it relates to Milici or

11     Vlasenica.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This decision as it's written here

13     relates to the municipality of Milici.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.  Back to you, Ms. Sutherland.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:  [Continued]

17        Q.   Mr. Savkic, in paragraph 2 of your statement it sets out the

18     positions or functions that you held from when you left school until at

19     the end of the war and it don't mention what functions you held in the

20     SDS party.  You stated in cross-examination in the Krajisnik case that in

21     late 1991 or the beginning of 1992, you took over the functions of the

22     president of the SDS party in Vlasenica.  That is the municipal board of

23     Vlasenica, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes.  That was the Municipal Board in Vlasenica.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And for the reference to the transcript was 20634 to

Page 33752

 1     20635.

 2             You also said you were a member of the Municipal Board of the SDS

 3     in Milici from 1993 until -- until the present time, which was the date

 4     you were testifying in -- in Krajisnik, and that you were also a member

 5     of the Main Board from 2001 to 2005.  And that's at transcript page 20635

 6     to 20636.  Are you still a member of the SDS today?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   You were also a member of the Serbian Autonomous District of

 9     Birac Assembly, yes?

10        A.   No.  I only attended its sessions.

11        Q.   In the Krajisnik trial you were shown some documents relevant to

12     the SAO Birac.  You stated that the meetings of the Assembly of SAO Birac

13     were held but the Executive Council of -- was never fully functioned and

14     that the Birac SAO region never existed as such and that was at

15     transcript pages 20664 to 20665.  I'd like to call up a document,

16     65 ter number 17438A, please.  If we could go to page 4 in the e-court

17     and page 17 in the English translation.

18             This is minutes of the 5th of February of the meeting of the

19     Assembly of the autonomous district Birac held on the 5th of February.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, I was checking.  It's only seven

21     pages.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, you're right, Your Honour.  I'm --

23        Q.   You were shown this document.  It says here that you're appointed

24     as a member of the political council.  Do you see that?

25             It's on page 7 of the English translation.  I'm sorry.  And it's

Page 33753

 1     on page 4 of the B/C/S.

 2             Mr. Savkic, we can see from the first page of this document that

 3     this meeting was -- took place in Milici.  Do you agree with me that you

 4     were a member of this political council?  Yes or no?

 5        A.   I don't see anything.  All I can see is page 31.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we please go to page 4 of the B/C/S.  I'm

 7     sorry.  Could we go to page 3 of the English then.  It doesn't appear to

 8     be the B/C/S document.  Could we go to page 7 of the English translation.

 9     The previous page, page 6.  I'm sorry.

10        Q.   Do you see here down the bottom and I will have it translated for

11     you, the members elected to the political council, 1, Jovo Mijatovic from

12     Zvornik; 2, Miroslav Deronjic from Bratunac; 3, Miroslav Stanic from

13     Kladanj.  The following page:  4 is Zdravko Vukovic from Kladanj; 5

14     Tomislav Savkic from Milici/Vlasenica, and then it continues another --

15             JUDGE KWON:  We have B/C/S page.  Let's show him the previous

16     page, page 6.  The next page.  Yes, please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Do you see there that you are -- this is a meeting held in Milici

19     on the 5th of February, 1992, and it states that you are a member of the

20     political council?  Were you a member of this council?  Is it your

21     position today -- what is your position today?

22        A.   I told you that I attended the Assembly of the autonomous region,

23     the only one that was held, and that was on the 8th of January in

24     Sekovici.  In the Krajisnik trial, a commission with a totally different

25     name was put to me that had been elected by the government at that one

Page 33754

 1     meeting held in Sekovici, and on that occasion, I said that some of those

 2     people I had never seen in my life before, and I am sure that it must

 3     have been recorded in the transcript, because I recall it clearly.  Now

 4     what you're talking about, the 5th of February --

 5        Q.   Sorry.  I will show you that document now.  If I can have

 6     65 ter number 17442.  These are the minutes of the first session of the

 7     Executive Council of the Birac SAO, dated the 18th of February, 1992.

 8     And on page 2 of the English, it says that you were appointed a member of

 9     a four-member team of representatives of the region tasked to review the

10     existing map of the ethnic region.  And in the Krajisnik trial, you said

11     it's difficult for a man to remember all the details when you were asked

12     about your membership of this four-man team, and you said you were never

13     consulted by anyone as to whether you would be a member, and that was at

14     transcript page 20666 to 20667.

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Now that you've had some time to reflect on the matter, do you

17     now agree that you were participated in councils and teams dealing with

18     political and ethnic issues in the region?

19        A.   No, no.  Even the minutes that you're showing me now, I don't

20     remember it at all.  I don't know.  I think it's not clear to me.  Well,

21     not exactly not clear to me, but quite simply those were working bodies

22     that had no particular function.  As I said, for example, this person

23     listed under number 4 is someone who is completely unknown to me.  I can

24     take another look at the minutes of the meeting, but this is first that I

25     am looking at it at this meeting or minutes.

Page 33755

 1        Q.   This is not the first time you've seen this document.  It was

 2     shown to you in the Krajisnik trial -- I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             I will move on, Mr. Savkic.  In paragraph 34 of your statement,

 4     you state that the Milici municipal --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I take it you are not tendering

 6     these documents, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  If you are, I'd like to deal with it one by one.

 9             Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps I don't see well, but could

11     I please be assisted.  Where does is say here that among the attendees we

12     can see Mr. Savkic?  In the second paragraph we have Radojlub Djukanovic,

13     Goran Zekic, Milan Miljanovic [phoen], and Vuk Hajlovic [phoen].

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's on page 2.  Four-member team.  The

15     memberships are Jovo Miskin and the four-member team were Tomo Savkic

16     from Milici, Rajko Vidakovic from Sekovici, Mitar Tesic from Bratunac and

17     Nego Jovtic from Srebrenica.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The conclusion is dealing with the formation

19     or appointment.  Mr. Karadzic's point was -- point was whether the

20     witness was present in this meeting.

21             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

23     witness.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Savkic, what did you say?

Page 33756

 1        A.   I certainly was not there.  I mean, there's no need to check.

 2        Q.   Regardless of whether you attended the meeting, you were -- you

 3     were put onto a four-member team.  My question was now that you've had

 4     time to reflect over the past six years, do you now agree that you

 5     participated in councils and teams dealing with political and ethnic

 6     issues in the region, in the SAO Birac region?

 7        A.   This commission --

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Savkic.  It requires a yes or no answer.  What is

 9     your position today?

10        A.   In this commission.  Well -- well, you know, you may be asking

11     for a yes or no.  I mean, if somebody has a particular kind of education,

12     then one has to know how to analyse this.  This commission never met.

13     The question is whether this decision was ever made and submitted to

14     these four persons.  I believe that that did not happen.

15             Now, as far as this other work is concerned --

16        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] I showed you two documents where -- where

17     you are listed as -- as being involved.  I asked you what your position

18     was, whether you were in fact dealing with matters to do with political

19     and ethnic issues in the region.  Yes or no?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did deal with that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to move on now to paragraph 34 of

22     your --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, I seek to tender those two documents,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 33757

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Turning first to 17438A, if

 2     you could look at that document at the very beginning of the document,

 3     the first two paragraphs.  I question the provenance of this document in

 4     light of those paragraphs.  Also, although the witness didn't confirm

 5     anything about the document, I don't think it also is reliable enough to

 6     be said to directly contradict him, so we are imposing the admission of

 7     that document.

 8             With respect to the other document, 17442, I think it goes to the

 9     weight, and we will not object to its admissibility.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could you explain to us, Ms. Sutherland, about

11     the provenance?  It says "excerpts from Srebrenica."

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will have to get back to

13     you in relation to the provenance of this document.  I would be happy to

14     redact that top portion of what appears in the document and starting

15     simply with the minutes, but I will get back to the Court in relation to

16     the provenance.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So this is not a proper minute but the minute

18     contained in a book.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It appears so, Your Honour, yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  So what do you suggest with respect to this document

21     at the moment?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We can MFI it until I get back to the Court in

23     relation to the provenance.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But -- yes, to be sure, Mr. Savkic you confirm you

25     attended that meeting in Milici in February.

Page 33758

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no, no.  This is the

 2     first time I see the minutes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we show him the first page and -- first page

 4     first.  17438A.  It says the -- there's a meeting, meeting held -- no,

 5     no.  I'm talking about 17 -- yes.  I'm correct.

 6             Meeting held in Milici on 5th of February.  Shall we show him the

 7     next page?  Next page.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I can assist.  On page 4 of the

 9     English translation --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but page 3, probably.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Savkic is speaking at this meeting.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That's the point I wanted to show him.

13             Do you find that, sir?  Where is the -- let me find the B/C/S

14     page.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, at page 4 in B/C/S as well.

17             Here it is noted that you held that this area and its economy

18     should be connected to Serbia, and its economy Western Serbia, in

19     particular.  You think the programme should be adopted.  Do you confirm

20     that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember this, although the

22     words are very affirmative.  I don't remember this meeting at all,

23     because I was not a member of that Assembly.  That's a very important

24     thing.  And that can be seen from the first page.

25             It is possible in terms of good husbandry that I sometimes did

Page 33759

 1     enter that Assembly because it was open, so I may have sort of walked in,

 2     but I do not rule out that possibility.  I walked in, greeted all those

 3     people, but it is certain that I was not a member of the Assembly of the

 4     SAO Birac.  Everyone knows full well who the 15 members from Vlasenica

 5     were.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And you would not deny that you were elected as

 7     member of the political council, as you saw earlier on in this document?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you I deny that because I

 9     never received that decision.  Well, I wouldn't have minded to work that

10     political body had I known in view of the names of these persons.  The

11     times were the way they were.  These decisions were never distributed to

12     anyone except for -- well, this is the first time I see the minutes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let me -- show the page 6.  I was talking about this

14     council, political council.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do know these people, but no, no,

16     no.  Never.  No.  As a matter of fact, for example, Zdravko Vukovic,

17     never heard of him.  Miroslav from Kladanj, never heard of him.  I doubt

18     it.  At any rate, this political council never met, although it had ben

19     established.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI P6112, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  And the next one.  Did we give the number for that?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 017442 will be P6113, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

Page 33760

 1        Q.   Mr. Savkic, in paragraph 34 of your statement you said that the

 2     Milici municipality -- municipal Assembly was established on the 31st of

 3     March, 1992.  When you testified in the Krajisnik case, you said that no

 4     decisions were taken at the republic level by the Assembly to proclaim

 5     the municipality of Milici, and that's at transcript page 20653.  You

 6     were shown the minutes of the 24th of March, 1992, meeting of the

 7     12th session of the Assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     where the Assembly verified the proclamation of the Serbian municipality

 9     of Milici.

10             The minutes that you were shown make it clear that a decision was

11     taken by the republic level in relation to the proclamation, and you --

12     you would agree with that proposition now?

13        A.   I would not agree.  A Serb municipality of Milici was never

14     proclaimed.  Even this Assembly that was held on the 31st of March, 1992,

15     where it is clearly stated that that is the municipality of Milici

16     without any prefix of Serbian, even that was held without us knowing

17     about it, us who had negotiated the territorial distribution of the

18     municipality of Vlasenica.  And now this Assembly that you've been

19     talking about, I can guarantee that all of us negotiators there, both

20     Muslims and Serbs, and I mean I don't know who it was that proposed this

21     anyway, because this was not in the interest of the population of Milici

22     or the population of Vlasenica, either Serb or Muslim.  There was no need

23     for that.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, I'll move on.  It's

25     Exhibit P00961.  It's at page 23 of the English translation and at

Page 33761

 1     page 41 of the B/C/S where the RS Assembly verifies the proclamation.

 2        Q.   Mr. Savkic, in paragraph 46 of your statement you state that

 3     there was no Crisis Staff in Milici.  Your position is that it never

 4     functioned.  It was never established.  It never functioned.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I can have 65 ter number 5 -- 00571, please.

 6        Q.   This is dated the -- this is a Serbian municipality of Milici

 7     Crisis Staff decision numbered 005/5, and it's about directing of taxes

 8     on the turnover of goods and services, and we see here a signature block,

 9     President of Crisis Staff, Tomislav Savkic.  You were shown this document

10     in Krajisnik, and you made an unsubstantiated claim that the document was

11     a forgery and this is at transcript page 20775.

12             We can see at the top of the document a stamp with the municipal

13     administration receiving the document, and we see a stamp at the bottom

14     of the document, Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15             Do you still -- is it still your position that this document is a

16     forgery?

17        A.   I claimed that then, and the Chamber of this Court --

18        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

19        A.   -- confirmed that I was 100 per cent right.

20        Q.   I have limited time.  It required a yes or no answer.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I think the witness has

22     to be given a chance to give an explanation even if he gives yes or no

23     answer.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have very limited time and I

25     think the witness could answer a your or a no; and if I want him to

Page 33762

 1     elaborate he can, or if Mr. Karadzic would like him to further elaborate

 2     he can do that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  "I claimed then" and now -- "confirmed that I was a

 4     100 per cent right."  I think we can leave it there.  Let's continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I -- I don't see where it is

 6     written, the Serb municipality of Milici, as Madam Sutherland said on

 7     page 29, line 21.  And the witness was trying to say it was the

 8     Trial Chamber that said that he was right.

 9        A.   They went into closed session and said I was right.  I can tell

10     you.  I can explain.  It's the stamp that is a forgery.  I showed it to

11     the Court at that point in time.  I have all of it here.  All of it was

12     forged because of the taxes that the Boksit company wanted to keep for

13     themselves, and that's why I didn't want to sign this.  Please go ahead.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   Mr. Savkic, this document shows that there is a Milici Crisis

16     Staff established and functioning and that you are the president of the

17     Milici Crisis Staff.  Do you deny that?

18        A.   Absolutely.  Everyone understand that this never existed in

19     Milici.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Overlapping speakers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't hear you, Ms. Sutherland.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  Unless we have more

24     evidence of its provenance, the witness has -- well, it contradicts the

25     witness.  There's no showing of the reliability of the document.

Page 33763

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I will -- if we can mark it for

 3     identification, I will provide the Court with the provenance of this

 4     document.  May I move on, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Not only the provenance but also the authenticity

 6     probably.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll mark it for identification.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P6114, Your Honours.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May I have 65 ter number 00569, please.

11        Q.   Mr. Savkic, so you're saying that the Milici Crisis Staff wasn't

12     in existence and that you weren't the president.  This is a document

13     dated the 27th of May, 1992.  It's a report of the duty officer of the

14     commander of the Milici police station, and it refers to the fact that

15     the Milici Crisis Staff was informed of an attack on a convoy.  You were

16     also shown this document in Krajisnik, and you stated that it was

17     possible that the author had merely mistakenly referred to the military

18     authority as the Crisis Staff, and that's at transcript page 20676.

19     Having seen this document is it -- is it still your position that you

20     were -- that there was no Milici Crisis Staff in operation?

21        A.   What is called the Crisis Staff of Milici is actually the

22     communications centre at the miners' hall.  So absolutely there was no

23     Crisis Staff in Milici.  This was the communications centre where people

24     came and reported what was happening.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

Page 33764

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6115, Your Honours.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can have 65 ter number 00572, please.

 5        Q.   Mr. Savkic, this is a decision on the discontinuation of the

 6     Crisis Staff of -- of the Milici municipality which is being replaced by

 7     the military command and the wartime Presidency.  You were also shown

 8     this document in -- in Krajisnik.  You conceded that this decision was

 9     based on a republic-level decision to abolish Crisis Staffs.  However,

10     you maintained that the Crisis Staff had in fact not functioned, and that

11     was at transcript page 20673.

12             Upon reflection and seeing these documents again, one where the

13     Crisis Staff is issuing a decision, another where the SJB are reporting

14     to the Crisis Staff and another where the Crisis Staff is being abolished

15     pursuant to a decision of the Serb leadership, does this change your mind

16     as to the fact that you were the president of the Milici Crisis Staff

17     which was in existence from March until the end of May 1992?

18        A.   This document and three or four other documents were shown to me

19     before that court, and I said about all of them why they were forged and

20     how and who forged them.  If I need to repeat that here to you now, I can

21     do that no problem whatsoever.  I can explain that to this Court and any

22     other court.  I remember those documents very well, five or six of them.

23     They were all forged in the later period in 1998.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  In light of the witness's

Page 33765

 1     comments, I think it should be MFI'd for a further showing of

 2     authenticity and reliability.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  What does the first sentence mean, Article 1?  It

 4     has been become discontinued by then or it has been discontinued till

 5     then?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, on the face of the document, it

 8     appears to be in the past tense.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Does it mean it was not in existence?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No.  It was in existence and it's been

11     discontinued.  It's being -- it's being abolished.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we -- or actually, maybe I can

14     do that too.  Could we ask the witness to explain the preamble, because

15     the preamble is --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  It's up to you to

17     take up the issue in your redirect.

18             Would you like to add anything to the authenticity of this

19     document, Ms. Sutherland or are you happy to mark it for identification?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we can mark it for identification

21     at the moment.  It -- it does have the stamp at the bottom of the

22     document.

23             JUDGE KWON:  But you didn't ask the witness about the signature

24     and the name -- the person named Mile Lalovic.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 33766

 1        Q.   Mr. Savkic, do you know Mr. Lalovic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I think -- [overlapping speakers]

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   He was a -- he was a friend of yours?  He was an acquaintance of

 6     yours?  That's his signature?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  That's the man who forged all of those documents in

 8     1998.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender the document.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, it just occurred to me have these

11     documents been admitted in the Krajisnik case?  If they have been you can

12     probably admit them on their reliability not the authenticity under

13     Rule 94, but if they haven't been, then we would maintain our objection.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, they have.  65 ter number 00571 was

15     Krajisnik Exhibit P1055.  65 ter number 00569 was Krajisnik

16     Exhibit P1057, and 65 ter number 00572 was Krajisnik Exhibit P1056.  I

17     thank you, Mr. Robinson.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, the witness has testified that this

19     was formed by Mile Lalovic.  Upon that basis, we can admit it and it will

20     go to the weight.  So we'll admit it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6116, Your Honours.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Mr. Savkic, War Presidencies replaced the Crisis Staffs, and they

24     performed the functions of the Municipal Assembly, yes?

25        A.   In this specific case as far as Milici's concerned, no.  As far

Page 33767

 1     as I know, that is.  Because the Municipal Assembly of Milici and the

 2     Executive Board of Milici worked throughout this period from the 13th

 3     of April, 1992, and further on.  Now, whether they established a war

 4     Presidency or not, you should ask Mile Lalovic, in that period, 1992.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 00585.

 6        Q.   Mr. Savkic, this is a document, a report dated the

 7     8th of December, 1992.  It's a report on the expanded session of the

 8     Milici municipality War Presidency, and it's addressed to the --

 9     Milan Zivanovic, commander the Drina Corps.  And if we can go over the

10     page of the English translation.  It says here that -- sorry.  If we can

11     go back to page 1.  It says here that the Milici municipality

12     War Presidency which has the function of the Municipal Assembly.  So

13     right the way through 1992, it was performing the functions of the

14     Municipal Assembly.  Do you agree?

15        A.   No.  I do not agree.  If you prepared this here, then you could

16     have prepared records of all the sessions of the Assembly of Milici and

17     all sessions of the Executive Board.  Now, this is what I'm asking you:

18     This War Presidency, if somebody was president of the Crisis Staff, how

19     come that that man who's president of the Crisis Staff is not on the

20     War Presidency?  And I happen to be that particular person.  Is there any

21     logic there?

22        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Savkic, I'm -- I'm the one that's asking you the

23     questions.  We can go -- could we go to the back page, please.

24        A.   All right.  Go ahead.

25        Q.   If we can go to the last page.  We can see that the signature

Page 33768

 1     block is the War Presidency.  It has a stamp, and it's sent to the

 2     Drina Corps command, the Birac Brigade command, and the

 3     Milici Municipal Assembly.

 4             My question -- my earlier question was that these

 5     War Presidencies and in Milici performed the functions of the

 6     Municipal Assembly right through 1992; is that right?  Yes or no?

 7        A.   No.  No.  No.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think my position is the

10     same that in light of the witness's response there is a question about

11     authenticity and reliability but if it's been admitted in the Krajisnik

12     case we wouldn't object.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure if the witness is saying that this is

14     forged or it was written by Lalovic but he does not agree with the

15     content of it.  Can you assist us, Mr. Savkic?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which document do you have in mind,

17     this one or the ones I've referred to?

18             JUDGE KWON:  This -- I mean this one, Mr. Savkic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bravo.  Bravo.  You see?  Look at

20     the stamp from December.  That's the stamp that was used then and then

21     have a look at the previous documents and their stamp.  You see, that's

22     why I said that.  The stamp was forged, not this one.  This is the

23     original, the original stamp of the municipal Assembly of Milici with the

24     coat of arms and the other one, you see, just look at it.  It's illogical

25     that --

Page 33769

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Savkic, I'm asking about this document.  So this

 2     is a genuine document.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6117, Your Honours.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document is possibly not

 7     forged, although I haven't read all of it.  In all likelihood, it is not

 8     a forgery, and I know about this period, and I know that the

 9     War Presidency sat at the time rather than the Municipal Assembly and its

10     Executive Board.  There was a very serious rift at the time in December

11     and January the next year.  It was fighting the Cerani Detachment.  I

12     know why it was that it is the War Presidency here, because there was no

13     one here who could sit.  I thought the president asked me about this.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We will take a break now.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And we will resume at 4 past 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, very briefly before I do, can I

21     make a submission to you?  I was granted one and a half hours with this

22     witness, and I've taken 45 minutes of that time already.  I initially had

23     asked for two and a half hours which I didn't think was unreasonable

24     given that his statement is 99 paragraphs covering both 1992 and 1995

25     issues.  I have nine discrete issues relating to 1992 to go, and I then

Page 33770

 1     have six discrete issues in relation to Srebrenica, but I have quite a

 2     number of relevant and probative documents to put to the witness which I

 3     think will take some time.  Up until this point it's been incredibly slow

 4     with the documents in e-court for a number of reasons, and so I am asking

 5     if I could have some additional time to do that with these -- to cover

 6     the issues that I have flagged to deal with with the next witness.  And

 7     if I can just say with the next witness I don't envisage taking 45

 8     minutes with cross-examination and that's what I say at this point.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  It would be pretty much to set a specific period of

10     time at this moment, but all I can say is to try your best and see how it

11     evolves.  Let's continue, Ms. -- it's noted.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Savkic, you were also president of the Milici War Presidency

14     established in 1995, weren't you?

15        A.   Yes, I was.

16        Q.   And if we can see 65 ter number 02373, please.  This is a

17     War Presidency situation report to the Republika Srpska Ministry of

18     Defence on the situation in the Milici municipality, and I think it's

19     signed by you as president of the War Presidency.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And this is you reporting on the situation at -- at the time?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 33771

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6118, Your Honours.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   You received orders and sought instructions from the central

 4     state organs, and you consulted with Mr. Karadzic for his approval of

 5     proposed War Presidency members, didn't you?  Not in relation to this

 6     document, Mr. Savkic.  It's a proposition I'm putting to you, that you

 7     received orders and sought instructions from the central state organs,

 8     including Mr. Karadzic.  You consulted with him for his approval on

 9     War Presidency members.  Is that -- that's right, isn't it?

10        A.   It is not.

11        Q.   Sorry [overlapping speakers]

12        A.   In terms of all War Presidencies --

13        Q.   Can we have 65 ter number 17320.  Are you saying that you didn't

14     consult with Mr. Karadzic to seek his approval on the proposed

15     War Presidency members?  Is that what you're saying?

16        A.   No.  No.  For all municipalities after Srebrenica and Krajina

17     fell, instructions were issued on the establishment of War Presidencies.

18     It was nothing special for Milici.  It involved all of the

19     municipalities.  Instructions were provided on how to establish

20     War Presidencies.  That's how it was.  Nothing special.  There was no

21     personal contact or anything.

22        Q.   But we see here this document in front of us your proposal for

23     the formation of the War Presidency of the municipality of Milici.  This

24     is signed by you.  If we could move the document up a little.  And this

25     is where you're writing to Mr. Karadzic, attention personally seeking --

Page 33772

 1     listing the proposed members.  That's correct, isn't it?

 2        A.   Whatever is on this paper is something that I signed as the

 3     speaker of the Municipal Assembly.  It was my proposal.  There's nothing

 4     to dispute in here.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6119, Your Honours.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can have 65 ter 01693.

10        Q.   This is an Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska dated the

11     28th of August, 1995, and if we can have 01693A.  I'm sorry.  And this is

12     Mr. Karadzic's decision on the establishment of the War Presidency in

13     1995, is it not?  Mr. Savkic?

14        A.   There's nothing to say.  What do you expect me to say?  Perhaps

15     it's not the same as I had proposed.  I don't know.  I'm not sure what

16     you're looking for.

17        Q.   I'm not giving evidence from the bar table but if we compare the

18     two documents you will see that the names are the same as those that you

19     proposed.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6120, Your Honours.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Mr. Savkic I want to now turn your attention back to 1992.  In

Page 33773

 1     paragraph 37, you state that talking about Vlasenica town you state that,

 2     It was agreed that we should go into town with our units, and this is on

 3     the 20th and 21st of April, 1992.  When you say it was agreed that we

 4     should go into town, it was agreed by whom, the Crisis Staff?  Or the

 5     Crisis Staff and the military?

 6        A.   What was the paragraph?

 7        Q.   Thirty-seven.

 8        A.   Thirty-seven.  This is what -- the language of what's his name,

 9     Luka Bogdanovic.  It says that it was agreed.  It referred to the command

10     of the 216th wartime Mountain Brigade and its battalion, and the

11     arrangement was probably also reached with members of the TO in

12     Vlasenica.

13        Q.   When you say this is the language of what's his name,

14     Luka Bogdanovic, you're talking about the Defence investigator?

15        A.   The Defence investigator, yes.  It was agreed upon.  A decision

16     was made.  That was the sense of it, the meaning.

17        Q.   It was agreed by who you should go into town?  Who was doing the

18     agreeing, the Crisis Staff and the military or who?

19        A.   It's already up there in Vlasenica.  I think it was agreed

20     between the command of the battalion of the 216th Brigade and the TO

21     staff, since it was a purely military operation.  It had a very clear

22     goal of securing public buildings and institutions.  I can't say who

23     participated in it though.

24        Q.   If we can see Exhibit -- Exhibit 23 -- sorry, 2636, please.

25             So the take-over was conducted by forces of the JNA and the --

Page 33774

 1     and it was co-ordinated by the SDS Crisis Staff.  Do you agree?

 2     Mr. Savkic?

 3        A.   Let me have a look first.

 4        Q.   Will you look at the document.  I'd like you to answer my

 5     question.  Do you -- I'm saying -- I'm putting to you that the take-over

 6     the Vlasenica was conducted by the forces of the JNA and it was

 7     co-ordinated by the SDS Crisis Staff.  Do you agree with that?

 8        A.   This was not co-ordinated by the Crisis Staff.  As for the JNA

 9     forces, yes, they did enter, and they did the job without a single shot

10     being fired.

11        Q.   We see here this document, P2636.  It was a report of the

12     1st Vlasenica Light Infantry Brigade commander, Mile Kosoric, and it sets

13     out that on the 20th of April the forces of the Yugoslav Army and the --

14     and the formed unit co-ordinated by the SDS Crisis Staff liberated the

15     town of Vlasenica.  This Mile Kosoric was your superior officer, was he

16     not, when you became commander of the Infantry Battalion in later 1992;

17     is that right?

18        A.   Mile Kosoric was the commander of the 1st

19     Milici-Vlasenica Brigade that was founded -- well, the date in here is

20     not correct.  It was established on the 16th of September, 1992.

21        Q.   Mr. --

22        A.   Up until then.

23        Q.   Your answer is not responsive to my question.  I asked if you

24     simply -- if this man, Mr. Kosoric, was your superior officer when you

25     later became commander of the infantry -- Milici Infantry Battalion in

Page 33775

 1     late 1992.  That's correct, isn't it?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   He was, but only then.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 38 of your statement you said that you believe that

 6     the Serbian leadership issued a decision on the establishment of the

 7     Vlasenica Crisis Staff on the 24th of April, 1992.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. Sutherland.  Your previous

 9     question, line from 24 page 42, you read out certain paragraph from the

10     document, and at -- in the end you asked whether Kosoric, or Kosoric was

11     his superior, and you didn't give him the opportunity to comment on your

12     other part of your question.  So bear that in mind.  Let's continue.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I -- I was simply putting the

14     document to him.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Putting the document, and you didn't ask a question.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But I put the question at line 17.  I put it to

17     you that the take-over was conducted by the JNA and the Crisis Staff and

18     he said no it wasn't, and then I put the document to him showing that it

19     was.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And whether he was his superior.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And then I went to ask him about Kosoric.  But

22     I'll bear your point in mind, Your Honour.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not correct.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, would you like to add anything, Mr. Savkic,

25     with respect to document?

Page 33776

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  It's very simple.  All

 2     of these assertions provided by Mile Kosoric, that is to say the first

 3     paragraph, the second paragraph, the third, the fourth, all the way up to

 4     the fifth paragraph.  Well, Mile Kosoric was not in Vlasenica at all.

 5     Together with his family, he went to Belgrade via Croatia, and he arrived

 6     in the area of Vlasenica in September 1992, and it is probably something

 7     that the Prosecution's aware of.  So all of this is being stated by

 8     someone who at the time was not in the territory of Vlasenica

 9     municipality at all.

10             Next, he's lying -- or actually not telling the truth in

11     paragraph 4 about some detachments in the field.  He made these

12     assertions, I don't know under whose instruction, perhaps by the

13     Prosecution.  He says the detachment is still co-ordinated by the

14     Crisis Staff of the SDS, although all of the detachments had been

15     resubordinated to the 1st Bircani Brigade which was established on the

16     day the JNA left, which is the 19th of May.  Kosoric is not tell the

17     truth in paragraph 5.  That's as clear as day.  The brigade was not

18     formed on the 16th of January, 1993, but on the 16th of September.  I

19     took over the battalion on the 1st of January, 1992, and it was only

20     because the tragedy at Podravanje on the 24th of September happened, just

21     before that, and I was unable to return to Milici before the

22     1st of November.  The probably only thing that is correct is paragraph 4

23     when he discusses how the 1st Milici-Vlasenica brigade was split into the

24     Milici and the Vlasenica unit.  I think the dates tally.  Everything

25     else, save for the third paragraph which says that the

Page 33777

 1     1st Bircani Brigade was formed on the 19th of May, everything else is a

 2     lie.  It's clear to anyone.  This man was describing something while not

 3     being present in Bosnia-Herzegovina at all.  And I also know why he wrote

 4     it, what the problems were, and so on and so forth, but you are perhaps

 5     not interested in that.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 7, is it the 1st

 7     of January 1993 or the 1st of September, 1992?  There is something that's

 8     unclear regarding the date in the transcript.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I may.  I was going to bring up

10     the same issue in relation to line 7.  The 1st of January, 1992.

11        Q.   Mr. Savkic, you took over the battalion on the

12     1st of November, 1992, did you not?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.  Thank you.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   Mr. Savkic, before we went back to that document, I took you to

18     paragraph 38 of your statement where you said that you believed that the

19     Vlasenica Crisis Staff was established on the 24th of April, 1992.  You

20     actually amended this in the final version of your statement.  You did

21     have the 4th of April in the earlier draft.  It is, in fact, the

22     4th of April that the Crisis Staff was established, wasn't it?  And if we

23     can look at 65 ter 23114, this may refresh your memory.

24             Now, if we can just go down to the bottom of the B/C/S first.  We

25     can see here that it's got a signature block of Tomislav Savkic, but in

Page 33778

 1     fact it's been signed on your behalf.  Who -- who -- do you recognise the

 2     signature that's below your -- the type-signed name of -- of your?

 3        A.   Just a moment.  On the 4th of April, I have it somewhere in one

 4     of the paragraphs here.  I was in Tuzla then--

 5        Q.   Mr. Savkic, in paragraph 38.

 6        A.   I'm trying to explain.  It says the 4th of April.  That's why my

 7     signature is not there.  As for my paragraphs, there is somewhere where

 8     it says that on the 4th of April, 1992, I was in Tuzla.  I went to see

 9     Djeneral Jankovic.  But there's nothing to be disputed.  The

10     4th of April.  You know that it is basically the beginning of the war.

11             Let's be clear.  The Crisis Staffs were formed whenever the

12     situation was critical for --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Savkic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the people.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Savkic.  Could you concentrate on answer the

16     question.  You stated in your document, in your statement, that it was on

17     24th of April.  Then now Ms. Sutherland was asking whether it was

18     4th of April.  The question could have been much simply -- much more

19     simply answered.  Let's continue.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Mr. Savkic --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6121, Your Honours.

Page 33779

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Did you tender the Kosoric document as well?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's already an exhibit, P02636.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Savkic, you didn't answer the question as to if you can

 6     recognise the signature below your -- the name.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we zoom in?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No way.  This doesn't mean anything

 9     to me.  I have no idea who may have signed it.  It is an unknown

10     signature to me.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   Can we just go to the top of the document, please.  Now, you see

13     here the predicate paragraph.  If we go -- if we can move the English up

14     as well.  Following the instructs from the Main Board of the BH SDS

15     regarding operation under conditions of imminent threat of war, the

16     Municipal Board at its session established the Crisis Staff -- made the

17     following decision in establishing the Crisis Staff.

18             These instructions from the Main Board in paragraph 31 of your

19     statement, you said you're not aware of any instructions issued by

20     Karadzic to representatives of municipalities on the 20th of December,

21     1991, and that you do not know about variants of plans A and B.

22        A.   Yes.  Not until 2005.  Here during a trial that's when I saw the

23     document for the first time.

24        Q.   You stated that in Krajisnik.  That's correct, isn't it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 33780

 1        Q.   And in fact in Krajisnik when you said that, you were shown

 2     minutes from Assembly sessions that you attended where variant A and B

 3     language was used to describe the instructions issued by the SDS

 4     Main Board in December 1991.  You confirmed in the Krajisnik trial that

 5     you were present at the 46th session held in November 1994, which is

 6     Exhibit P00401, where Mr. Karadzic stated:

 7             "Do you remember the instruction A and instruction B?  We had

 8     Crisis Staffs," and so on.

 9             And you were -- confirmed that -- you were also shown

10     Exhibit P00970 which is a transcript of the 50th session held Sanski Most

11     in April 1995.  Again you confirmed that you were present, didn't you?

12     That -- that's correct, isn't that you confirmed in the Krajisnik case

13     that you were present at that session?

14        A.   Keep quoting what I said in that case so that I don't have to

15     repeat, since you want to quote.

16        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation continues] ... do

17     you agree with me that you were present at the 50th session, yes?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  I was present at the session.  I also added that I

19     didn't hear about it then either, because I may have left the session,

20     was not in the meeting room.  And even if --

21        Q.   Mr. Savkic --

22        A.   -- the president did tell me --

23        Q.   -- what you said was despite these references, and this is at

24     20722, you stayed that you'd never heard of this instruction and that it

25     wouldn't have meant anything to the uninitiated listener.  And you

Page 33781

 1     mentioned a moment ago that you -- you said that you may have -- you

 2     didn't hear it or you may have left the session, but that's in relation

 3     to the trajectory goals which we'll move on to in just a moment.

 4        A.   No.  That's what it pertained to, and it is in the transcript.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the transcript quoted

 6     by Madam Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The transcript where he said he was present at

 8     the 46 --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The witness isn't disputing it.  Do we need the

11     transcript pages?  Transcript pages where he says he's present at the

12     46th session is 20 -- 20722 to 20723, transcript pages where he confirmed

13     he was present at the 50th session was 20723 through to 20725, this

14     discussion about it.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I don't think that that is in

17     dispute.  What is disputable is the relation between document A and

18     document B.  Did this witness confirm that he had been aware of that

19     document?  Can that reference be found in the transcript.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Karadzic can take this matter up in

22     re-examination if he wishes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And please do not overlap.  Let's continue.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Mr. Savkic, you stated in the Krajisnik trial that the first time

Page 33782

 1     you saw the strategic goals written down, and this is at transcript

 2     page 20713, was when you arrived in The Hague, and that the first time

 3     you were made aware of the strategic goals under the heading "Strategic

 4     goals," was also when you arrived, and that's at 20618.  You stated that

 5     you were not aware of the goals in the broad sense, although goals such

 6     as strategic goal number 2 you knew about.  However, nobody called this a

 7     strategic goal.  That's at 20618.  You said you would rather call it a

 8     doctrine or maybe tactical objectives, quote unquote, and that's at

 9     20719.  You said that the first time you'd heard of the strategic goals

10     was before Dayton in 1995.  And you said that at 20713 to 20714.

11     However, you were present in Assembly sessions when the strategic goals

12     were discussed, weren't you?

13        A.   No.  I was not a deputy at all at the time.

14        Q.   Mr. Savkic --

15        A.   I mean, I was not the deputy when they were adopted.  Let me

16     correct myself.

17        Q.   Before we go on, I just put to you a number of transcript

18     references in Krajisnik.  You recall saying all of that that I just put

19     to you, do you not?  About the fact that you would call it a doctrine,

20     maybe tactical objectives, the first time that you saw it written down

21     was when you came to The Hague.  All of that that I just put to you, you

22     remember you said that in the Krajisnik trial, yes?

23        A.   Yes.  Well, I cannot remember every word, but I do recall that in

24     the Krajisnik trial I saw the strategic goals in writing for the first

25     time upon my arrival in The Hague in 2006.  That is correct.

Page 33783

 1        Q.   But you had heard about it before from Assembly sessions that you

 2     had attended, had you not?

 3        A.   None of us had ever spoken about strategic goals, this or that.

 4     Do you understand?  Those were a well-educated people, and I'm not quite

 5     sure if many of them had never seen it either, just like I never saw it.

 6        Q.   Mr. Savkic, you said -- you said that you weren't a deputy until

 7     later.  You became a deputy in mid-1992.  That's correct?

 8        A.   I became a deputy sometime.  I know that this - what's it

 9     called? - oath that I gave at the Assembly session held in Prijedor.  It

10     may have been in August, September, or October.  However, I attended the

11     first session before I gave my oath, and I didn't have the right to cast

12     a ballot.  But in those three key months, June, July, and August, during

13     the fighting it is well known that I was a commander, and due to that I

14     was prevented from attending sessions.  And I also mentioned that in my

15     testimony, and it can also be discerned from the minutes of the meetings.

16        Q.   Mr. Savkic, I'm interested in the Assembly sessions that you did

17     attend.  You attended the 34th session.

18        A.   It means nothing to me if you don't tell me the venue.

19        Q.   The 34th session was -- was -- was on the 29th of September,

20     1st of October, 1993, and -- and at that session, Mr. Krajisnik spoke of

21     the strategic goals, and this was shown to you in the Krajisnik case, and

22     this is where you said you'd never heard about it, about the strategic

23     objectives under the heading "Strategic Objectives":

24             "But the matters contained in them I did hear about.  I would

25     rather call it a doctrine or maybe tactical objectives.  As an officer, I

Page 33784

 1     would call them tactical."  And that's at transcript page 20719.  Do you

 2     remember -- you stated that?  Do you remember stating that?

 3        A.   Yes.  That was my comment once I saw the original text of the

 4     strategic goals, and of course as a trained officers -- officer, many of

 5     those who called those goals strategic goals were people who were well

 6     educated, but those were simple tactical objectives; for example, open a

 7     corridor.  That could not have been strategic goals at all.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  You could have said simply, "Yes," to this question.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   You were also taken to the --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just wait for the translation.  Yes.  Do you

12     understand that, sir, Mr. Savkic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you're saying.

14             JUDGE KWON:  If you could --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm not sure I quite understand

16     the Prosecutor.

17             JUDGE KWON:  If you could answer simply by yes and no, please do

18     so.  Yes, please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   You were also taken to the 36th session which was held on the

21     30th and 31st of December, 1993.  And this was where you were -- you were

22     speaking at this session about your nomination to a council which I'm not

23     going to get into, but you said at the beginning of the war -- sorry.

24     You were referred to paragraphs -- pages 12 to 13 where Mr. Krajisnik

25     begins, and he said at the beginning of the war the Assembly endorsed as

Page 33785

 1     one of the most important documents the strategic objectives of the

 2     Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina and organised the people to

 3     implement them, and then he enumerated the six strategic object

 4     difficulties and you responded that in the work of the Assembly session

 5     since it's very long and it happens frequently that deputies leave before

 6     the end because of their obligations, and if Mr. Krajisnik did indeed say

 7     this at the -- this session, then it's probably at a time when you

 8     weren't present and you said that at transcript page 20717 to 20718.

 9     However, Mr. Krajisnik spoke at the beginning of the session in relation

10     to the six strategic objectives, and that is he spoke at the session

11     before you did.  So in fact, you were in attendance at the session when

12     these strategic objectives were enumerated by Mr. Krajisnik.

13        A.   I said of that occasion again that I wasn't present.  Now,

14     whether that was in the beginning or in the middle, very often the

15     Assembly worked in commissions, and sometimes it would happen that the

16     commission on which I was, the commission for appointments, was supposed

17     to prepare certain proposals, and it could have happened that we were in

18     a different room at that time.  So attendance during a session is

19     immaterial.  I attended every session wearing uniform and carrying my

20     weapon, but whether I was late or not late, and the quorum was

21     established maybe on that day or the following day after the session was

22     over.  Anyway, if we are talking about strategic goals, I am not a stupid

23     or an insane person to say that this was never discussed.

24             Now, as for the --

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you --

Page 33786

 1        A.   -- professional meaning of the strategic goals, I gave my opinion

 2     at the last --

 3        Q.   I want to move on.  I've got a couple of -- a few more topics

 4     before we get on to the Srebrenica paragraphs of your statement which are

 5     about 25 paragraphs in number.

 6             In paragraph 36, you state that there can be no talk of

 7     expulsions of Muslims from Vlasenica municipality and that it was a SDA

 8     plan for them to move out, but, in fact, the moving out of -- or Muslims

 9     moving out of the municipality was discussed by the government of the

10     SAO Birac, wasn't it?

11        A.   I was not a member of the SAO Birac government, but it never

12     existed, in fact.  There was only the Autonomous Region of Birac.

13        Q.   And in fact, there was an article published in "Javnost," and

14     this is Exhibit P06030 on the 6th of June, 1992, which was setting out a

15     decision of the SAO Birac government regulating the moving out of the

16     Muslim population.  Do you recall being confronted with this exhibit in

17     Krajisnik?

18        A.   I don't.  I'd like to see it.  If I saw it, I might recognise it

19     and then tell you if I had seen it before or not.  Show it to me.

20        Q.   P06030, please.  Now, you see here the government was -- did

21     issue a decision according to this "Javnost" article in relation -- in

22     relation to the safe moving of Muslims from that area.

23        A.   I don't remember reading this, but I find many things to be

24     illogical.

25        Q.   Okay.  If you --

Page 33787

 1        A.   I don't know how to interpret them.  You can't see who the author

 2     is, but you can see quite clearly that this was not the position of the

 3     government but a poetic licence that the author took and obviously since

 4     he's using the term "autonomous region," obviously the author is not

 5     properly informed.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I will move on to another topic, Mr. Savkic.  In -- if we

 7     could have Exhibit -- sorry, 65 ter number 00570, please.  This is a

 8     document dated the 31st of May, 1992.  It's a report to the commander of

 9     the Milici police station recording that Savkic, Toma, Toma Savkic, was

10     transported by M. Milosevic on the 31st of May, 1992.  This M. Milosevic,

11     is that Milomir Milosevic who was stationed at the Milici police station?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   And this same person was a subordinate of Rade Bjelanovic, the

14     chief of the SJB, Milici SJB?

15        A.   Yes.  He was his subordinate.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  P6122, Your Honours.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Mr. Registrar.

21        Q.   Mr. Savkic, at paragraphs 63 to 65 of your statement you discuss

22     the Zaklopaca massacre and you say that this attack on the

23     16th of May, 1992, was fortuitous and it was not planned and it was not a

24     planned and intentional operation.  You said that the JNA troops were

25     passing through, and they rested there and heard about some Serbs being

Page 33788

 1     killed, and you said that it was basically a revenge attack by foreign

 2     troops, and by "foreign" you meant that they are not from Milici.  And

 3     you said that this is attested to by the fact that "they shot at Serbian

 4     houses, too, because they did not know that these were not Muslim

 5     houses."

 6             How is it then that the only victims that day were over 60

 7     Muslims?

 8        A.   Excuse me.  Which paragraph did you read from?

 9        Q.   Sixty-three, 64, and 65.

10        A.   Sixty-five, what you asked me about, it is very precisely quoted

11     that the village of Zaklopaca was populated by Serbs and Muslims, and the

12     majority, not all of them, from the group that attacked the village

13     was -- were foreigners or strangers, people who were not from Milici.  It

14     was also said that they were shooting at Serb houses, not knowing that

15     those were not Muslim houses.  So this is --

16        Q.   Mr. Savkic, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but if this wasn't a

17     planned and intentional operation how then is it that all the victims

18     that day were all of Muslim ethnicity?

19        A.   The next witness will be the best-placed person, Bozidar Trisic

20     to give you this explanation, who was shooting, how the shooting was done

21     and how it all looked like.  So instead of me giving an account of what

22     he personally experienced, let him talk about it.  And if he hadn't been

23     there to return fire at this shooting, because Serbs were in Zaklopaca,

24     maybe both Serbs and Muslims would have been killed.  As far as I

25     remember the words of Bozidar Trisic, there was not a single victim on

Page 33789

 1     the Muslim or the Serb side, and those who were shooting from the other

 2     side of the street, they killed a Muslim, and his name is known, but

 3     equally Djuric could not --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please wait for the

 5     interpretation to finish.

 6             MR. KARADZIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Because you were overlapping you were not heard.

 8     Not only you, but also the last part of the witness.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The end of the answer referred to

10     Djuric and what could have happened to me, so I'm sorry could you please

11     finish.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how far it went on.

13     Which part do I have to repeat?  This part where Bozidar Trisic lived,

14     the population was completely mixed.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You said -- you said, "They killed a

16     Muslim, and his name is known, but equally Djuric could not," and later

17     it was not noted.  What did you say?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If Djuric had been there, the

19     owner, the Serb owner of the house, he would have been killed as well.

20     That's one thing.  Secondly --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- there was a man called

23     Vasiljevic --

24             JUDGE KWON:  That's fine.  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 3 it doesn't say that the

Page 33790

 1     witness said that he had heard that from Trisic.  That is where you can

 2     see later that Bozidar Trisic -- I mean, it's empty.  But what it's

 3     supposed to say there is that he heard about these developments from

 4     Trisic.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   When did you last speak with Mr. Trisic?

 7        A.   Well, maybe not less than 10 days or so.  I think it's been about

 8     10 days or so.  Maybe more.  Maybe longer.  How long have I been here

 9     now, seven, eight days?  So maybe it's 15 days.  I mean, I talked to him

10     several times.  Let's be quite clear on that.  I mean for years.  This is

11     a man who was born in the village that is right next to my village.

12        Q.   Okay.  You testified in the Krajisnik case that you were aware

13     that IPTF had investigated the killing of over 60 Muslim men in Zaklopaca

14     on the 16th of May, 1992, and you agreed that the IPTF concluded that

15     Milomir Milosevic from the Milici SJB had a role in the massacre and that

16     he was suspended from service as a result.  You -- you recall saying that

17     at transcript pages 20734 to 20735?

18        A.   Could you say that once again?  I didn't really hear the first

19     part.

20        Q.   In the Krajisnik case and this is at transcript pages 20734 to

21     27035, you testified that you were aware that IPTF had investigated the

22     killing of over 60 Muslim men in Zaklopaca --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  You're kindly requested to read slower for

24     interpretation.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 33791

 1        Q.   -- and you also agreed that the IPTF concluded that

 2     Milomir Milosevic from the Milici SJB had a role in the massacre and that

 3     he was suspended from service as a result.  You recall saying that in the

 4     Krajisnik case, do you is not?  Do you recall saying that?

 5        A.   Bad translation.  IPTF then suspected him of having taken part.

 6     However, after that when the investigation was carried out completely the

 7     man proved to be absolutely innocent, and in this last judgement the

 8     Government of Republika Srpska has to return him to the MUP.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, you have spent so far an hour and

10     40 minutes about.  How much longer do you need?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would need at least a half an

12     hour to deal with the Srebrenica matters, possibly 40 minutes.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, the Chamber would like you to

15     conclude by the end of this session, in half an hour.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you very much,

17     Your Honour.

18        Q.   Mr. Savkic, I now want to turn your attention to 1995, when you

19     were president of the Municipal Assembly of Milici.  At that time your

20     telephone number was 741-028, was it not?

21        A.   I don't remember.  Which number of mine are you referring to,

22     actually?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 24608A, please.

24        Q.   You had a colleague in Milici named Milos Lalovic.  Do you recall

25     his telephone number, 741-016?

Page 33792

 1        A.   Milos Lalovic?  I don't think there's any such person in

 2     Lalovici.  There are quite a few Lalovics, but not a Milos Lalovic.  I

 3     wouldn't know who Milos Lalovic is.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mile.  Mile Lalovic.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Mile.

 7        A.   Oh, Mile Lalovic, yes.

 8        Q.   Sir, you see on the screen here this is an extract from the MOD

 9     Zvornik district telephone directory.  You see your name, president of

10     the municipality, telephone number, and Mile Lalovic, president of the

11     Executive Board, and his telephone number, 741-016.  Do you recall now

12     these telephone numbers?

13        A.   No, no.  I couldn't remember.  Doesn't mean a thing to me.  Well,

14     it's possible that they're correct, I mean, but I don't remember.  I do

15     not remember that those were the numbers.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No foundation.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  You were, he said it may be possible that these

20     numbers are -- are correct.

21             JUDGE KWON:  But you only asked about the number, but you didn't

22     ask a question about this document itself.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Mr. Savkic, do you see this extract from the Zvornik district

25     telephone directory?  Would there be any reason that these numbers -- we

Page 33793

 1     can presume that the numbers here are the numbers of yours and

 2     Mr. Lalovic's telephone numbers?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Office numbers.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Yes, work numbers.

 6        A.   None of these numbers mean a thing to me.  I do not remember.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have the entire document of this?  You said

 8     it's an extract.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, 24608 is the entire document.

10     Your Honour, I'm happy to move on if -- if -- due to the time.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's only of one page.  Let's move on.  You

12     are not tendering this document -- or shall we mark it for

13     identification.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We can mark it for identification.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P6123, Your Honours.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Mr. Savkic, you state that on the 11th of July, you received a

19     report that the Muslim forces broke through the 1st Milici battalion at

20     Bokcin Potok in order to cross the road at Kaldrmica and Zuberi.  If we

21     can first of all quickly have a map up on the screen 65 ter number 24608

22     to try and orient the Chamber to where these locations are that you

23     mention in your statement.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think we need a different number.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 33794

 1        Q.   24606.  Thank you.  While we are waiting for that map to come up,

 2     you said that there were many fatalities on both sides.  Many Muslim

 3     fatalities?  Mr. Savkic?

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's what I said.

 5        Q.   How many Serb fatalities?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you said that this was parallel to or along the

 8     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, or the Milici-Konjevic Polje road.  This is

 9     the area that you're talking about, aren't you?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you say that this happened on the 11th of July, 1995, and you

12     just recently corrected your statement to read 11 of July, not 11 or

13     12 July 1995.  That's correct, isn't it.

14        A.   What was the paragraph?

15        Q.   Paragraph 91.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Para number again, 91?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Sorry, 89.

19        A.   Yes.  The 11th of July, in the evening hours, yes, I did receive

20     information that Muslim forces made the breakthrough, yes.

21        Q.   And the 11th of July is the day Srebrenica fell or was liberated.

22     That's right?

23        A.   If that's what you say, then that would be it.  I am interested

24     in my municipality.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that it was the

Page 33795

 1     head that broke through.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We know exactly which

 3     brigade, which commander.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Savkic, the Muslim column did not even reach this road and

 6     wasn't even close by the 11th of July, 1995.  And if we could have --

 7     first of all, if we can -- if you can look at this map, these areas, the

 8     Zuberi area, the Kaldrmica area, and the Mratinci area and the Buljin

 9     area are all areas that you have listed in your statement.  Is this --

10     are these locations correctly put on this map?  Mr. Savkic, you see this

11     map in front of you.  Does this accurately reflect where these positions

12     are, these areas that you refer to in your statement?  Is this map

13     correct?

14        A.   No, no, no.

15        Q.   If it's not correct, can you please say what's not correct and

16     take the marker, the pen there that you have.  The usher will assist you.

17     What are you saying is not correct?

18        A.   Zuberi, all of this that is displayed here.  Here, this part.  I

19     beg your pardon.  So all of this is Konjevic Polje.  All of that is

20     Konjevic Polje.  Kaldrmica -- Kaldrmica is all of this Djugum area --

21     what is area --

22        Q.   Area.  Djugum area.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this please be interpreted to

24     the witness.  And the word to be used should be "zona [phoen]" rather

25     than "proster [phoen]."

Page 33796

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpret's note:  We did not hear the witness

 2     because of Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is it, then -- just a

 4     moment, please.  Then all of this -- I mean, if you're referring to these

 5     houses around Djun Kafana [phoen], well, that would be it.  Well, the

 6     Bratunac area, well, I'd have to take a look.  Kravica is a far broader

 7     notion.  This is only the centre of Kravica.  Sandici, well ...  I would

 8     not say that this is Pervani, but Pervani is to the left.  Well, all

 9     right.  Tentatively, in terms of orientation, let's say that that would

10     be it.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I assist with the transcript.

12     The interpreters did not hear that.  The witness asked that -- to be told

13     what "area" means.  The interpreter said "proster."  Since he is an

14     officer, I think that it would be easier if it were translated as "zona"

15     to him.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I think he heard your intervention earlier on.

17     Let's continue in any event.  Thank you.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Mr. Savkic, could you please just put a -- put a --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- KP up near the Zuberi area that you marked as the

22     Konjevic Polje area.  Put the initials KP and then please sign and date

23     the map.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could tender that map then, please,

25     Your Honour.

Page 33797

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Konjevic, Konjevic Polje.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   Can you please sign and date the map.

 4        A.   Today's the 15th?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Mr. Savkic, this Trial Chamber has evidence before it that -- and

 8     this is Exhibit P04939, that it was confirmed that a large group of

 9     Muslims left the Srebrenica area on the night between the 11th and 12th

10     of July, 1995, which contradicts what you've said, that they were up in

11     the Kaldrmica and Zuberi area by the 11th.

12        A.   Well, the 281st Brigade, well, actually this was my former

13     battalion that had positions at Valjevo.  They reported to me, and they

14     said to me very nicely, I quote what I was told then from Bokcin Potok,

15     and then further up towards Mratinci.  Well, literally they said to me,

16     "Everything's black."

17        Q.   Mr. Savkic, the -- the 11th of July, Drina Corps daily combat

18     report which is -- we can bring that up.  65 ter number 2 -- 02002,

19     indicates that no combat activity in the area of Konjevic Polje and

20     Nova Kasaba.  In fact, as you'll see when the report comes up, it

21     indicates that the security in the Drina Corps zone of responsibility is

22     good.  It says that five VRS soldiers were killed on the

23     11th of July, 1995, but not in connection with any activity in the area

24     of Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba.

25        A.   In my statement, well, I received information.  I'm reading

Page 33798

 1     paragraph 81.  On the 11th of July, 1995, I received information stating

 2     that Muslim forces had penetrated Bokcin Potok.  These are the areas that

 3     you marked.  This is 5 or 6 kilometres away.  So that's not it.  That's

 4     not what you asked about.  And of course what is missing here is during

 5     the night they passed along the road in Kaldrmica.  I mean, this is this

 6     man from Bratunac.  He mentioned Zuberi but it's Konjevic Polje.  It's

 7     that area and there was combat.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Mr. -- Mr. Savkic?

 9        A.   And there were quite a few fatalities.

10        Q.   This is a regular combat report signed by Milenko Zivanovic, who

11     was the Drina -- from the Drina Corps command staff, setting out what the

12     position was on the 11th of July.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender this

14     document.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Savkic we have --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I take it you are tendering the

19     marked map as well.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the number first?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the map is P6124.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And this one?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  And this one will be Exhibit P6125.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 33799

 1        Q.   And we have no reports indicating many fatalities on the

 2     11th of July as you just testified to a moment ago on the VRS side,

 3     because there were virtually none on the VRS RS MUP side, and that's

 4     right, isn't it?

 5        A.   Well, all of this is fine.  This is a regular combat report of

 6     the Drina Corps in Bokcin Potok.  Everybody knows that by now.  In

 7     Bokcin Potok, when crossing over, the Muslim formations were not fighting

 8     with the Army of Republika Srpska.  Rather, they were fighting between

 9     themselves, because communications were down, and everyone knows that.

10     That's what wounded Muslims said.  This is what our people saw.  This was

11     fighting that had been unseen before.  This is the territory of

12     Bokcin Potok.  They're far away.  So they were fighting between

13     themselves there.

14        Q.   Mr. Savkic, I'll show you some video footage shortly --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Savkic, do you understand

16     English?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Then let's continue then, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Savkic, we have Borovcanin's 10 to 20 July report which is

21     Exhibit P04960 which -- excuse me a moment.

22             Yes, in paragraph 89 of your statement you say that there were

23     many fatalities on both sides, but in fact I've just taken you to

24     documents which show that there were no fatalities on both sides, and

25     that was in the document that we've just admitted.

Page 33800

 1             In Borovcanin's 10 to 20 July report it indicates and this is

 2     P4960, that in the -- it is only in the afternoon of the 12th of July

 3     that the MUP received information from state security that 12- to 15.000

 4     able-bodied Muslims were moving from Srebrenica to Konjevic Polje.  So on

 5     the 12th of July, there is no sign of a battle with heavy losses either,

 6     and the 12th of July VRS Main Staff daily report indicates that on that

 7     day in the Drina Corps zone only one VRS soldier was slightly wounded -

 8     and this is Exhibit P03054 - and that there were no fatalities on the

 9     Serb side.  In fact, there were never heavy fatalities on the Serb side

10     caused from the Muslims in the column until at the 16th at Baljkovica.

11     To the contrary, on the 13th of July, the Serb forces started capturing

12     thousands of Muslim civilians and soldiers from the column and thousands

13     of men surrendered to the VRS and the MUP along the

14     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje -- Konjevic Polje road; correct?

15        A.   He has no idea.  He has no idea.  Information on the breakthrough

16     of the Muslim forces, the first breakthrough on the 11th, I personally

17     communicated that to Malinic down there at the Protection Regiment.  The

18     fist obstacle, well, the Muslims themselves say that.  The first obstacle

19     they had to cross was through minefields.  A few antipersonnel mines

20     exploded.

21        Q.   Mr. Savkic --

22        A.   Why don't you let me tell you what the truth is?  He has no idea

23     whatsoever.  I'm going to tell you everything.  I'm going to tell you the

24     names of the casualties from my battalion.

25        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

Page 33801

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We'll have a break now and we'll

 2     give you ten minutes after the break.

 3             Mr. Savkic, you may be excused now.  We'll continue after the

 4     short lunch break.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, why is the date that important?

 7     Whether it was 11th, 12th, or 13th, 16th in relation to this witness's

 8     evidence.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Because, Your Honour, basically this witness's

10     evidence is -- is incorrect.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  In terms of date.  Yes, let's suppose he

12     messed up the date.  Then he's -- based on the -- that date, his entire

13     testimony will be false.  Is that your case or -- my question is whether

14     the date has specific connotation or bearing upon his evidence.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If Your Honour would give me a moment, please.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it's the fact that the -- the date

18     is incorrect.  It's out by -- by two days.  But also the fact that there

19     was no Serb -- there was no Serb casualties to the extent that this

20     witness is saying there is.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, very well.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If 89 were to be read correctly,

24     then we would see that after Bokcin Potok they crossed the road and that

25     is only when there's a reference to Serb casualties, not before that.


Page 33802

 1     And it doesn't even have to be the 11th anymore, but on the 11th they

 2     were in Bokcin Potok.  Then they crossed the road as they were fighting,

 3     and then there's a reference to casualties.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  That's the matter to be seen.

 5             Very well.  We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at

 6     11 past 1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 33803

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, I take it notification should be

 7     reclassified as confidential.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No, I don't see anything in the notification that

 9     refers to --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see the associated exhibits?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, the associated exhibit -- that annex has

12     already and reclassified as confidential.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.  I note it.

14             Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Savkic, you said that Muslims "engaged in armed combat when

17     crossing the road" and very many of them were killed and this is from

18     paragraphs 89 to 90 of your statement.  I want to show you a short

19     video-clip of some video of the road on the 13th of July, 1995, and of

20     the VRS MUP engagement with members of the column, and this is at

21     Sandici.  If we could please play the video.  And I will go on to play

22     the clip, Your Honours, from 00:30:50 to 00:31:55.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   This Muslim man that you see in the video-clip, Ramo Mustafic,


Page 33804

 1     when he says, Of course I'm scared, he was found in a Srebrenica

 2     associated grave, and that's, for Your Honours' and Mr. Karadzic, P04642.

 3             Mr. Savkic, that was what was happening when the Muslims were

 4     crossing the road where -- where you say they were crossing in

 5     paragraphs 89 to 90.

 6        A.   What you have shown us could be footage from just about anywhere

 7     and you can say it's in Sandici, but it has nothing to do with the part I

 8     indicated on the map where I said they went through to my municipality.

 9     I'll tell you this --

10        Q.   Mr. --

11        A.   I'll tell you about what things looked like where I stopped.

12        Q.   Mr. Savkic, just a moment.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this was the Muslims surrendering

14     at the creek destroyed white house, and this was from the Srebrenica

15     trial video P04201.

16        Q.   Mr. Savkic, I'll play you quickly another clip then, and this is

17     clip number 1, and it is also at Sandici from the same Srebrenica trial

18     video from -- I wish to play 00:17:46 to 00:19:04.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:

21        Q.   You see, that was -- that was Sandici, wasn't it, the area that

22     you saw on the video-clip?

23        A.   Could we go back to the map, please, so that I can show you where

24     this is and where the weapons were that I saw, and you'll see that there

25     were no civilians.  There were thousands upon thousands of pieces of

Page 33805

 1     weapons when I walked over that part.

 2        Q.   Mr. Savkic, I'm moving on in the interests of time.  If

 3     Mr. Karadzic wishes to do that in redirect, then he may wish to do that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   You know Mane Djuric of the Zvornik MUP, don't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   He was Dragomir Vasic's deputy in July 1995?

 9        A.   Perhaps.  I don't remember.  It is possible.

10        Q.   I want to show you an excerpt from his diary.  If I can have

11     65 ter number 24067A, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  It wasn't released, Ms. Sutherland.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're waiting just in

14     materials of expiration of the time, I would just point out that the

15     playing of these video-clips didn't really advance much that couldn't

16     have been advanced through a closing submission.  So when you're

17     considering how much time, and particularly the fact that we have one

18     more witness who would like to finish today, I think I'd ask you to keep

19     that in mind.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I'm very sorry, but I can't restrain

21     myself from responding to that.  The witness testified that on this time,

22     and we got the dates straight, that there was heavy combat on the road on

23     both sides in this area which we say is this area.  That is why the video

24     played.  I don't tell my friend how to do his directs or his crosses.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed.  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 33806

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm advised that it has been

 2     released.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I think we are seeing that.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  And if we could just scroll so that we

 5     have the top of the document.

 6        Q.   Mr. Savkic, this is from the 14th of July, 1995, and we see at

 7     the top right-hand corner it has the Vlasenica number of your colleague,

 8     Mile Lalovic, 741-016.  And underneath it also has Tomo, and we can see

 9     on the B/C/S that there's an initial below the Tomo.

10             Mane Djuric says that this refers to you in his interview on the

11     21st of June, 2010.  Who else is in this entry with you?  Directly under

12     your name there's another number, and who's -- what's the name underneath

13     that?  Popovic?  Do you see it on the top right-hand corner?

14        A.   It could be Popovic.

15        Q.   And that would be Vujadin Popovic; right, the 4th Battalion?

16        A.   This is Radovan Popovic in our unit.  He's a civil engineer.  He

17     was employed in the mine, if that's the Popovic I have in mind.

18     Radovan Popovic whose brother Kojo Popovic had been taken to Srebrenica

19     and killed there like a stray dog.  It's good that you show this

20     document.  He was captured in Kravica on the 7th of January, 1993, taken

21     to Srebrenica and killed like a stray dog.

22        Q.   You see the number between your name and Popovic's name.  That's

23     the phone number of a house in Orahovac across from the school.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And it's the Prosecution's case that this house and number was

Page 33807

 1     used by the VRS security organ in Orahovac, i.e., Popovic.

 2             Mr. Savkic, Mane Djuric puts you in this same conversation with

 3     Popovic with the 4th Battalion and the security organs house used in

 4     Orahovac, and on that same day, the 14th of July, 1995, that Popovic and

 5     the 4th Battalion are executing over a thousand men in Orahovac.  So it's

 6     referencing to Vujadin Popovic not Dragan Popovic that you just

 7     mentioned.

 8        A.   Not Dragan but Radovan.  I say it can be any Popovic.  That last

 9     name doesn't mean anything much.  All of this scribble, I don't know why

10     this is being shown.  There are no telephone conversation --

11     conversations during that time, and there's no date.  It doesn't mean

12     anything to me.  I know exactly what I did, where I was.  So, yeah, I

13     understand you, but this has got nothing to do with me.  No way.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this, mark it for

15     identification at the very least.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.  It's not relevant.  I would

17     like to know if it's the Prosecution's case that Mr. Savkic participated

18     in any of these executions.  That's the implication here.  I actually

19     have my own notes in which I have different people's names and different

20     things on the same piece of paper.  So I don't think that this is even in

21     any way relevant unless the Prosecution intends to assert that Mr. Savkic

22     had something to do with the activities of Vujadin Popovic.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm -- sorry, we will seek to

24     tender this document through another witness.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  But I note that the telephone number and


Page 33808

 1     witness's -- witness's name was written in different pen, but it's for

 2     you to tender it later.  Let's continue.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have no further questions for

 4     this witness.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Do you have any re-examination,

 6     Mr. Karadzic, for this witness?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have to, your Excellency.

 8     Such extensive cross-examination deserves some explanation by the

 9     witness.  I will start with the most recent topic.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Savkic, please look at paragraph 89 of your

12     statement.  Can you tell us where, how, and then which of these locations

13     the soldiers of the 128th Division of the Army of BH came into combat

14     contact with the VRS?  Was it at Bokcin Potok?

15        A.   Yes, I can be precise if I were shown that map, since until the

16     1st of November, 1993, I commanded that battalion.  So the position of my

17     battalion was from Buljin towards Derventa.  And because at that point in

18     time I did not have a left-hand side neighbouring unit, our lines were

19     curved and went towards Mratinci, which is beyond Bokcin Potok.  Why do I

20     refer to that?  Two of our trenches, since the Drinjaca company didn't

21     dare or couldn't be at that side because then they would be left without

22     their left neighbouring unit too, I allowed for two of our trenches to be

23     moved so that the first and the second trench would be manned by the

24     Drinjaca company.  They had just broken through between the two trenches

25     of ours on the left side towards the Drinjaca company and in the

Page 33809

 1     direction of the rest battalion which was at their positions near Buljin.

 2     I told you they had first gone through a quadruple minefield.  There were

 3     two minefields of tripwire mines and two minefields of antipersonnel

 4     bombs, and of course that couldn't have gone unnoticed because many of

 5     them went off.  121st Brigade went through the first, and when the end of

 6     our positions from the battalion at Mratinci saw them, they probably

 7     opened fire and there was chaos because one part of the brigade had

 8     already gone through.  There were others coming on as well, and they

 9     probably lost communication.  There was an exchange of fire between the

10     end position of our battalion, which may have interrupted all sorts of

11     communication between the two parts of that brigade.  It is not in

12     dispute that the two brigades basically fought each other the whole night

13     in that place.

14        Q.   Can we see 24606 so that Mr. Savkic's officer can mark it.  We'll

15     also need it for -- because of Sandici.  24606.

16             Did you have casualties when the first contact was established

17     near the trenches?

18        A.   Yes.  Two fighters.  There were so many of them that two of our

19     soldiers were in a dugout, and they just picked them up along the way.

20     They took them alive and to date we or I at least have not been able to

21     find out what happened with them.  One of them was called Jankovic, and

22     he was the cousin of Pajlot Jankovic.  There was another one,

23     Ljubisa Jovanovic, who hailed from Kravica.  That's why I was quite upset

24     last time to see in a document that there was no fighting whatsoever.

25     They simply, once they arrived, took both of them alive.  So they were

Page 33810

 1     the first casualties.  That was on that day when they were breaking

 2     through.

 3        Q.   They were captured --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Is this what you heard or what you

 5     saw, Mr. Savkic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard it by -- from some people

 7     who told me as the municipal president.  Everyone knows about that.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   I can direct your attention at P4496, item 7, losses or

10     casualties.  The 1st Milici Infantry Brigade during the day at around

11     3.00 p.m. two fighters had gone missing during search of the terrain in

12     the Potok area, the two soldiers being Jovanovic and Ratko.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpret's note:  Mr. Karadzic read that out

14     too fast and the speakers are overlapping.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you give the number again and

16     put -- and pause between question and answer.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour, if I might interrupt.

18     And this is redirect so if Mr. Karadzic can lay a foundation and ask a

19     question before he puts a document to the witness and doesn't ask

20     questions in leading form.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that my learned friend

23     Ms. Sutherland disputed Mr. Savkic's statement that there were casualties

24     on the Serb side and he wasn't allowed to tell the names of the people

25     who were the initial casualties at Bokcin Potok.  Before I read out the

Page 33811

 1     names to him, he told -- he said the names himself.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I didn't dispute that

 3     there were casualties on the Serb side.  I in fact led in my questions to

 4     Mr. Savkic that there were, I think I said five Serb casualties, and I

 5     read -- referring to the exhibit.  So that is not correct, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you tell us this:  Were these two ever returned?

 9        A.   No, never.  Even today we still don't know anything about them.

10        Q.   They were not identified in any graves?

11        A.   I don't have such information.  It may be possible that they were

12     found in some Muslim graves.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In 4450, there's also a reference to five killed and

14     three wounded?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.  Mr. Karadzic, you heard the objection

16     of Ms. Sutherland.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am trying to confirm what

18     Ms. Sutherland said a moment ago where she stated that she mentioned five

19     victims.  However, these five are different.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Savkic, can you tell us this looking at the paragraph:  What

22     happened next -- sorry, before that?  Before they crossed the road at

23     Kaldrmica and Konjevic Polje, were Muslim soldiers being killed and how?

24     In what way?

25        A.   At first there was an exchange of fire with the

Page 33812

 1     1st Milici Battalion.  Next, the company that was nearby also opened

 2     fire.  I presume that was the Drinjaca Company.  And the biggest clash

 3     for the Serb side as well took place between the Muslim units at

 4     Gornji Bratinci [as interpreted].

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we assist Mr. Savkic with a pen

 6     so to indicate -- to indicate where the minefields were, where the Serbs

 7     engaged Muslims, and where the Muslims fought between themselves.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, excuse me for interrupting again

 9     but can Mr. Karadzic establish from the witness whether this is something

10     that the witness knows because he was there or because he heard it and if

11     so if he heard it, who did he hear it from.  At the moment it's sounding

12     like the witness is right there.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That's the point of my question.  Let's continue,

14     and then could you put that to the witness as well.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Savkic, where was your unit deployed on this map?

17        A.   On this map my unit -- well, like this.  Ravni Buljin, and then

18     this is the part I talked about, which went like this.  Then near

19     Brezani, further on.  The line stopped around here.  There was a reserve

20     platoon which was in Dolovi village.  Here it is.  Near the school

21     building.  There was a reserve platoon there with some guys who were

22     better.  This part towards Tuzla was open throughout the period, and from

23     Buljin it went towards Derventa and the settlement on the left.

24        Q.   Can you just mark the direction of Derventa with a D?

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 33813

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Next to the line itself can you write the Milici

 2     battalion or Milici Brigade, MB?

 3        A.   The 1st Milici battalion.

 4             [Marks]

 5        Q.   Did you have a unit of yours in Sandici?

 6        A.   No.  No.  That area did not have any military units at all.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you circle the area where the Muslims were killed

 8     in a minefield and how many.

 9        A.   Just a moment.  I'll tell you exactly.  This is a slope, and our

10     minefields were placed like this and then like this.  Just give me a

11     moment to get my bearings.  So there was one section of a minefield

12     particularly planted with antipersonnel mines.

13             Now, somewhere here were the two trenches of the Milici

14     battalion, and then this was the line held by the Drinjaca Company.  So

15     that was the situation.  Therefore, they first came across Bokcin Potok,

16     which I marked.  They passed through this area and then went on along

17     this line.

18        Q.   Please.  Please mark the minefield with letters MF.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             This is a bit slanted.

21        Q.   Can you please mark Bokcin Potok with BP.

22        A.   [Marks]

23             Then it says here --

24        Q.   Can you tell us did you see this with your own eyes or were you

25     informed about the events by your unit about how many people were killed,

Page 33814

 1     how many pieces of weapons that were discarded you found, et cetera.

 2     Tell us all of this.

 3        A.   As I said, the initial information I received from my troops.

 4     They phoned me, and since this is a forestry area, it's difficult to see

 5     the dead in the minefield, but one could hear the mines going off.  So

 6     sometime after the 15th of July, I don't know exactly when, and a couple

 7     of other men went and toured this entire area where my battalion was

 8     deployed.  I don't know if I should draw it, the direction which we took.

 9        Q.   It's not important where you went, but tell me what you found out

10     and in what manner.

11        A.   I saw everything with my own eyes.  Within this circle,

12     particularly here --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, but I don't think this arises from my

16     cross-examination, this line of questioning.

17             JUDGE KWON:  You challenged the witness with witnessing --

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  On the date and massive casualties on the Serb

19     side.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Did you not challenge the witness' witnessing Muslim

21     corpses, albeit indirectly?  I will consult my colleagues.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was -- I was cross-examining him

23     about the fact that there was no heavy armed conflict when they were

24     crossing the road and the date.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

Page 33815

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Robinson, we shall like very much to hear you

 3     reply to Ms. Sutherland's submission on this matter, please.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Judge Baird.  I was

 5     just wondering myself if I was misunderstanding the Prosecution's

 6     position, because it was my understanding that their cross-examination

 7     was trying to show that this event that the witness described, including

 8     thousands and hundreds of bodies of Muslims who died either in combat

 9     with the Serbs or in combat with each other, I thought that they were --

10     the point of their cross-examination was to show that this event did not

11     take place, and if I'm mistaken in that and if they agree that it took

12     place in the way that the witness said it, then perhaps there's no need

13     for redirect, but I suspect that that's not the case and I think it falls

14     squarely within the cross-examination if that's the situation.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll allow the accused to continue.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So as briefly as possible and accurately as possible.  Where did

20     you see this number of corpses, and how had they died?  How did these

21     soldiers die?  Tell us everything.  How many died in the minefield, how

22     many died in Mratinci, et cetera?

23        A.   Not only in the circle of Mratinci, when the four of us were

24     going through, we saw bodies next to each other, and the area toward

25     Bokcin Potok is forested, and on the other side you have meadows, this

Page 33816

 1     slope, and you can see downwards.  At that time when I was there, the

 2     bodies were swollen, which led me to believe that that was after the

 3     15th, and there were already maggots appearing and I'm sure that the

 4     forensic can confirm that they died two days prior to that date.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please slow down.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   When you say this, can you please use the pencil and indicate

 9     what you're showing, because otherwise we don't know.

10        A.   This is the area that I'm talking about.  This is above Kamenica.

11             [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  How did they die?

13        A.   All these men, as far as I could observe, were mostly killed by

14     gunshot wounds, by bullets.  In this forested area and towards the peak,

15     there were dead bodies whose abdomens were blown as a result of being

16     shot by an LPG of the Chinese make, and there were at least a hundred of

17     them scattered around and nobody collected them.

18             Now, another interesting thing, below the red line towards the

19     forested area, the majority of fighters were facing the stream - I'm

20     talking about the dead bodies - whilst others up there were facing or

21     turned towards Mratinci village.  Gornji Mratinci village.

22             I didn't go to the area on the left, but I think it's obvious to

23     everyone here that the fighting took place towards Bokcin Potok and that

24     there was also fighting towards Gornji Mratinci where our troops were not

25     deployed.  It is possible that this platoon had reached the end of the

Page 33817

 1     positions of our battalions and that they got killed in clashes with that

 2     platoon.  But as I said, there was so many dead bodies you could hardly

 3     avoid treading on them.

 4             Later on, before I arrived, all automatic and semi-automatic

 5     weapons were collected --

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  Excuse me, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The question was how did they die.  The witness

 9     said all these men as far as I could observe were mostly killed by

10     gunshot wounds.  That's the answer.  And the witness has gone on now for

11     three paragraphs.  The other thing I would note, Your Honour, is this

12     map.  He's drawn a circle within this Mratinci area.  I don't know

13     whether Your Honours want him to do a notation for what this circle

14     represents so that the record's clear.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Who made the circle?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The witness just drew the red circle within the

17     larger black circle on the map in front of us, but I don't know whether

18     he needs to put what in fact that circle represents.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Savkic --

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The red circle.

21             JUDGE KWON:  What does the red circle mean?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The red circle indicates the

23     largest number of dead Muslim bodies and an area where the weapons that

24     belonged to the dead men remained, the weapons that hadn't been driven

25     away.

Page 33818

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you please put STB or SDB which stands for concentration of

 3     dead bodies.

 4        A.   Outside of the circle.  So since this is where the two men, our

 5     two men who were taken away and this area indicates where they were

 6     passing through.

 7        Q.   How many bodies were in minefields?

 8        A.   I didn't dare go over there, because these minefields were partly

 9     constructed whilst I was a commander, and after that engineering units

10     from Pale were involved.  So I didn't go there.  One can only assume, and

11     according to the stories I heard from my men, there were bodies there

12     because in actual fact they entered between the Milici battalion and the

13     Drinjaca Company.  They passed through that area.  I didn't see those

14     bodies, but I heard that were quite a few of them.  So this part between

15     the Drinjaca Company positions and this one here.

16             I'm talking about what I saw.  But I did hear that the situation

17     was the same there in this entire area of Pobudje.  People were telling

18     me that there were numberless dead bodies.

19        Q.   Can you please indicate the place where the Drinjaca Company was

20     deployed with letters DK.

21        A.   So from here I will just put an arrow, because I don't know.

22        Q.   Can you tell me briefly how many pieces of weapons were discarded

23     by those who were either killed or who surrendered?  You said that in the

24     cross-examination.

25        A.   Yes.  A truckload full of weapons FAP was loaded with the weapons

Page 33819

 1     collected there, as well as two tractor loads of weapons who were taken

 2     to the Milici Brigade.  While I was passing through the area, I could see

 3     M-48 rifles, submachine-guns, M-53, hunting rifles, and also LPGs of the

 4     Chinese make which I mentioned earlier with all these rockets, and there

 5     were bodies.  I said that along this line which I marked, I saw at least

 6     100 LPGs, and that stands for light rocket launchers.

 7        Q.   You said that they were killed by the Chinese LPG.  Did we have

 8     this kind of weapon in our arsenal?

 9        A.   No.  No, we didn't have that kind of weapons.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Less distinguish what you saw and

11     what you heard first.  What is it that you saw, Mr. Savkic, at the time?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I saw LPGs, which

13     stands for light rocket launchers of the Chinese make.

14             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw rifles M-48.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry.  Please tell us again what you saw.

17     Including the bodies, weapons or whatever.  Tell us all that you saw at

18     the time.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Weapons, dead bodies, a car,

20     Zastava 285.  This is probably the Zepa Brigade.  I saw back-packs and

21     other sacks full of ammunition, 762-millimetre automatic and

22     semiautomatic rifles.  Well, that would be all.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Where did you see them?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This entire area that I encircled.

25     And I can also show you down there where I went from Kamenica downwards

Page 33820

 1     along the road to Sandici.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you please mark it on the map, because we can't see it.

 4        A.   So I went down this road.  I think this is how it runs from

 5     Kamenica.  [Marks].  At any rate, we were coming from that direction when

 6     we had battalion rotation.  We would hit the main road and then go back

 7     towards Konjevic Polje and this here.  Of course there were dead bodies

 8     on this section of the road as well but far fewer than on this part up

 9     there marked C, D, B, or whatever.

10        Q.   Can you mark the road with letter R or P.

11        A.   I can only write Cyrillic.

12        Q.   So put a P.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Just one more question.  Do you know what happened with these

15     bodies?  Have any sanitation measures been undertaken, and where were

16     they buried?  Do you know that?

17        A.   I have official information which came out in July 1998.  I was

18     the president of the Milici Municipal Assembly.  A representative of the

19     International Red Cross told me that from this area, but not only from

20     the area that I marked, but from the area -- from the Konjevic Polje road

21     all the way to Pobudje the commission, which I later heard whose

22     commission it was, collected 2.600 Muslim skeletons and that they were

23     taken to the old part of the Lipnica mine.  I have her photograph.  Her

24     name was Ines Miska [phoen], I think.  So it's not a problem.  Anyway, it

25     is common knowledge.  The local Muslims and Serbs were involved in

Page 33821

 1     collecting these bones from that area.  So --

 2        Q.   Thank you.  One more question with regard to the map.  Could you

 3     please use a blue pencil and mark the direction that they took in order

 4     to cross the area of Pobudje and where they crossed the road and the

 5     river Jadar.

 6        A.   I need to have this map lowered a bit.  I forgot to mention that

 7     this whole road from Gornji Mratinci all the way to Kamenica which I

 8     took, that was something very striking that I will never forget.  The

 9     part of the column that was crossing the meadows 5 to 6 metres on the

10     average, it looked like an asphalt road.  There was not a single grass --

11     grass blade left intact.

12             Now I'm using the blue pencil, and this is the road that we are

13     talking about and what I saw as they were passing.  So this is the

14     section that I discussed.  [Marks].  Maybe a bit to the left, but as I

15     said, the width was 5 to 6 metres where they passed, and they trod on the

16     grass.

17             If you go along this slope, you can reach Pobudje, but we need to

18     move the map to see Konjevic Polje.

19        Q.   If we do that, we're going to lose everything, and it's not

20     necessary.  Just put the date and your initials in the lower right-hand

21     corner.

22        A.   [Marks]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, could this be

24     admitted into evidence?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Two questions, Mr. Savkic.  How do you know that

Page 33822

 1     Muslim column followed that blue route?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I explained to you a while

 3     ago.  If you look at this blue circle, I told you nicely.  In this area,

 4     when they went out, the grass was trodden in the width of 5 to 6 metres

 5     on the average.  There was not a single grass blade left.  It was just

 6     dirt, black earth, and peasant shoes cannot easily eliminate grass.  And

 7     also a civilian footwear cannot do that.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  How did you know that some of them were killed by

 9     Chinese LPG?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They could have been killed by

11     bombs, by the Chinese LPGs.  This is an assumption.  Maybe they were

12     killed by rifle grenades, but if you see such huge wounds, these are not

13     bullet wounds.  So everybody knows that, and I suppose I was someone who

14     had an opportunity to see my own men killed by grenades, my men from my

15     battalion.

16             JUDGE KWON:  On several occasions you said "my troops" or "my

17     battalion."  Were you in a military hierarchical position at the time in

18     1995?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  As of 1st November, 1993,

20     I didn't have any military position.  However, I don't know the

21     War Presidency of the municipality to be a military position.  But as far

22     as command structure is concerned, I held no post whatsoever.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive this marked map as next Defence

24     exhibit.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2941, Your Honours.

Page 33823

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Savkic, today you were asked about Zaklopaca.  That was on

 5     page 56 of today's transcript, and paragraphs 63 through 65 of your

 6     statement.  You were asked -- or, rather, it was suggested that it was

 7     not true that this had not been planned and prepared, and you were asked

 8     about Serb casualties.  Were those all civilians, Mr. Savkic, and was

 9     Zaklopaca a place that had its own armed group that used to go -- become

10     engaged in fighting and then come back?

11        A.   Speaking about Zaklopaca, before the events there took place

12     there is no doubt that it is true that Muslims of Zaklopaca said at the

13     public security station, although some of them returned with weapons, but

14     the others told them what kind of weapons certain individuals had in

15     their possession, and they enumerated those weapons.  They also said that

16     there was a group of some 30 men that when war operations began between

17     Derventa, Rudnik, Milici, Skelani, took part alongside paramilitary

18     formations, TO Djile.  So there is no doubt about that.  This is what the

19     Muslims said.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D4124, and I

22     apologise for this not having been translated, because I never

23     anticipated this to be in dispute.  So 1D4124.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 33824

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can Mr. Karadzic please be cautioned not to ask

 2     leading questions and also to lay a foundation before he puts the

 3     document to the witness.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm doing my best.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   But I wanted to ask you, sir, Mr. Savkic, do you know what

 7     Zalisine is?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I believe I laid a foundation through my previous

10     question.  Could I ask you to read this document, and could you please

11     tell us with a this document is.

12        A.   You want me to answer.  Well, you see, this is a report of the

13     1st Zepa Brigade, and it is providing information to the 2nd Corps of the

14     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it is stated clearly that the

15     above-mentioned persons were killed in Zaklopaca after returning from

16     Zalisine.  Zalisine was the headquarters with Ravno Gora, the

17     headquarters of the TO of Djile, and that was commanded by

18     Fadil Turkovic.  So this is confirmation of what I said earlier on,

19     namely that one of these formations out of 30 took part in the operations

20     from the 1st of May until the 7th of May, 1992, in all of those things

21     that were happening in that area.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other microphone

23     please be switched off.  Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you please read the first paragraph.  Could you finish

Page 33825

 1     reading this paragraph.  There are names up there.

 2        A.   Yes:

 3             "Could you please provide information for us for Muradif Hreljic,

 4     born 1960, in Zaklopaca, municipality of Vlasenica, and Murat Hreljic

 5     born in 1963, in Zaklopaca, municipality of Vlasenica."

 6        Q.   Go on.

 7        A.   "The above-mentioned persons were killed in Zaklopaca upon

 8     returning from Zalisine on the 16th of May, 1992, and they were members

 9     of the unit of Fadil Turkovic.  We are sending this information on the

10     basis of the statement made by the parent (father) Osman Hreljic."

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the benefit of the

13     participants, may I say that Murat Hreljic is registered in P4282, Amor

14     Masovic's findings as a victim of an execution.  Can this be admitted,

15     page 57 in that exhibit, referred to as an execution victim or, rather, a

16     person who had been killed.  Actually, identified in a mass grave.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D2942, Your Honours.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you, you mentioned Djile a moment ago.  Can you tell us why

21     Djile is important and what happened there?

22        A.   Well, Djile is very important, because after a deep canyon in

23     front of Djile - I mean there's Djile - and then behind Djile is the

24     bauxite mine.  Sometime towards the end of the month of September 1991,

25     Ibrahim Ademovic nickname Sakura, together with another group of persons

Page 33826

 1     who were similar to him and with an M-56 automatic weapon stopped buses

 2     that transported the Boksit workers, and he sent them to Milici on foot

 3     from there.  When the police patrol came, well, that's how he behaved the

 4     first time, September --

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  How does this arise out

 6     of cross-examination?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has to do with Zaklopaca,

 8     your Excellency.  Would I prefer a shorter answer, but it does have to do

 9     with Zaklopaca.  I'm interested in the importance of Djile that is

10     mentioned in the document and the importance of Derventa.  Very briefly,

11     and we have received an answer as to what Zalisine is.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djile is the headquarters of the

13     battalion -- or, rather, the Territorial Defence detachment.  At that

14     moment this is a parallel paraformation.  So that is the headquarters of

15     this detachment, and it was named after that.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you just tell us why --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Pause.  Pause.  Continue.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Why is Derventa important?

21        A.   Derventa is important -- well, from Derventa towards the mine

22     there is this road that goes through Muslim villages, and what is

23     important is that in Derventa, at the end of April and the beginning of

24     May, about 2 --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Karadzic, I can't follow the

Page 33827

 1     line of questioning.  Why it is important to the witness has nothing to

 2     do with us.  So how does it arise from the cross-examination of

 3     Ms. Sutherland?  You put specific question and lay foundation and you may

 4     put some documents or other propositions, but why certain thing is

 5     important to witness has nothing to do with it.

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

 8     witness.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.  Perhaps my

10     questions were not skilful enough, but all of these are locations where

11     heavy fighting took place, but I shall move on.  And now I'd like to call

12     up the following document 1D4073, and while we're waiting.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did you know Mustafa Mehmedovic or have you heard of him?  He's

15     from Zaklopaca.

16        A.   Mahmutovic.  That's a mistake.  Mahmutovic Mustafa.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have that document?  Do you know what happened

18     to him?

19        A.   Yes.  I heard about that later, that he lost his life in

20     Zaklopaca.  And I knew about him beforehand.  Before the war he was armed

21     with two automatic weapons.  He returned one, and that is his statement.

22     And the other one he kept.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you confirm that what is being proposed here is

24     that he -- or, rather, that these persons received decorations?  So can

25     we see bottom part of the page.  It's the Muslim committee for

Page 33828

 1     commemorating some anniversary or other, and the names of different

 2     fighters are listed there, those who had been proposed for decorations.

 3     Can we have the next page now.  The next page, please.  And now the

 4     bottom of the payment.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again, how does this arise from

 6     cross-examination?  I specifically cross-examined in relation to

 7     Zaklopaca about the incident that happened on the 16th of May, 1992.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that Mahmutovic was one of the victims

 9     killed on that day.  Otherwise, I'd like to ask --

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But the witness has actually confirmed that he

11     said that this gentleman died in the Zaklopaca incident.

12             JUDGE KWON:  And then whether there was -- he was killed as a --

13     as plan as you put it in your cross or whether he was killed during the

14     combat.  I think he's entitled to --

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I agree.  I agree.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could I then ask you to read what this says, why he is being

19     proposed for a decoration posthumously.  Does -- the part that is

20     underlined.

21        A.   He thoroughly prepared for the war having bought two weapons, and

22     he particular --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  But before we proceed, let's

24     identify what -- who we are talking about.  This document -- this

25     document is talking about Mehmetovic, Mehmedovic, but you said

Page 33829

 1     Mahmutovic.  Who are we talking about, Mr. Karadzic?  Let's clarify that

 2     first.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please explain to us what his last name was and whether

 5     this is the man that is being referred to here?

 6        A.   It's very easy to establish.  It's just the last name where the

 7     mistake was made.  His name, the name of his father, where he was born,

 8     when he was born, father's name, mother's name, all of it fits except

 9     Mahmutovic, this Ibro Nuhanovic wrote Mehmedovic, or perhaps it was just

10     a typo.  It was probably handwritten and somebody was typing this up and

11     that's where the mistake was made and all the rest can be established

12     easily.  Then there are the victims of Zaklopaca who lost their lives

13     there, so it's no problem.  Everything else fits.  So it's not Mehmedovic

14     but it's Mahmutovic.  All the rest is -- corresponds.

15        Q.   The witness just spoke of this -- what the witness just said now,

16     we can find that in Amor Masovic's report.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mahmut Fezim Mustafa [phoen], and all the other information

20     except that the last name is?

21        A.   Wrong.

22        Q.   Right there, wrong here.

23             JUDGE KWON:  That's nothing to do with your re-examination of

24     this witness.  That's subject of your further submissions.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like the witness to

Page 33830

 1     read why it is that they made this proposal to decorate this man who got

 2     killed in this incident in Zaklopaca.  Why they wanted to confer

 3     decoration upon him.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was preparing for war

 5     thoroughly.  Having bought two weapons, and he particularly figured

 6     prominently in organising the people of Zaklopaca for were resisting the

 7     aggressor.  During the first half of May, the above mentioned person

 8     established a unit consisting of about 30 armed neighbours and moved to

 9     the nearby mountain of Birac with them with the intention of linking

10     up --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the same formation from the

13     area of Derventa.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be zoomed in a bit for the

15     witness.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   And could you please go on reading.

18        A.   Because -- well, this is probably a typo again, because the

19     Derventa unit did not carry out what had been agreed upon.  There was

20     hesitation in Mustafa's unit, and the members of the unit decided to

21     return to the village.

22        Q.   Please go on.  The entire section that has been circled, but

23     please read it slowly so that it can be interpreted.

24        A.   The commander warned of the danger involved because of the total

25     encirclement, because the area was totally encircled by Serb population.

Page 33831

 1     He remained isolated in terms of such thinking because he said that he

 2     did not want to stay as an exception if he is going to return to a

 3     hornet's nest.  Unfortunately, his assumptions turned out to be the

 4     bitter truth, and the fatal mistake in the assessment of his neighbours

 5     resulted in a genocide.  That was the consequence.  Genocide over -- over

 6     60 inhabitants of this hamlet.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Who is proposing that he be decorated?

 8        A.   The president of the SDA of Vlasenica headquartered in

 9     Srebrenica, Ibro Nuhanovic with a degree of economics.

10        Q.   There are other members of the commission, too; right?

11        A.   Yes, from all these municipalities, Srebrenica, Bratunac, Zvornik

12     and Vlasenica.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You said to us today that people were furious.  They

14     came because some of their people had been killed and their suspicion was

15     that their soldiers who got killed had been fired at from that village.

16     What do you say to that now?  Was this well founded, this suspicion of

17     these persons who had killed them returning to Zaklopaca?

18        A.   That day part of the column, part of a JNA column passed through

19     Vlasenica, and they had been victimised in Tuzla on the previous day.  In

20     addition to that, a column from the Motorised Brigade from Jastrebarsko,

21     from Croatia, was also passing by.  It is beyond dispute that on that

22     day, our entire unit, that is to say that battalion, was involved in

23     heavy combat with the units from Srebrenica and Zepa in the area between

24     Derventa and the canyon facing the mine.  The police was there too, and

25     they were supposed to secure that road once the enemy was driven away.

Page 33832

 1     They were supposed to secure that road.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, can this be admitted

 4     for identification.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D2943.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, Mr. Karadzic, you referred to

 8     Mr. Masovic's report or Exhibit as P4282.  Could you give me the correct

 9     number?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The correct number is P, so it's a

11     Prosecution number, 4852.  And the page is 57 in e-court.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll change topics

14     now.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

16        Q.   I wanted to go back to the beginning of the cross-examination.

17     Mr. Savkic, you were asked why you did not list the positions you had

18     within your party when you created the list of your official positions.

19     Can you tell us what was it that you omitted and why?  Can you tell us

20     what sort of positions you were appointed to in your area, in your

21     municipality?

22        A.   In my municipality?  You mean Milici or --

23        Q.   First Vlasenica and then Milici.

24        A.   So as of November 1991, I think, until let's say the 31st --

25     well, I was never removed or dismissed, but until the Municipal Assembly

Page 33833

 1     of Milici was established.  In that period, I was the president of the

 2     Municipal Board of the SDS in Vlasenica.  In Milici, since war operations

 3     were already under way and I didn't have any similar function during the

 4     war.  Later on when this body resumed its work, another person was

 5     appointed as its president because we didn't have enough time to do

 6     anything else.  As I said, I became commander on the 1st of November,

 7     1992.  Before that, since I was a reserve military officer, for a while

 8     when I no longer worked in the bauxite mine, I was someone who provided

 9     engineering support, be it in securing the passage of JNA units or

10     providing engineering support to the work of the mine or of certain Serb

11     villages.  I became president -- oh, yes.  In the meantime, no one asked

12     about it, when Goran Zekic, a member of parliament, was killed, I became

13     a deputy in the RS Assembly.

14             When the War Presidency was established in 1991, it was

15     established, but as we can see in the documents, the Municipal Assembly

16     and the Executive Board of Milici municipality existed in parallel.  So

17     with the exception of that letter or document sent to the command of a

18     unit, the War Presidency did not have any role to play.  There was no

19     need in Milici municipality, not before the 28th Division broke through

20     the territory of Milici municipality.  Well, if there's anything that I

21     have forgotten, they can ask me.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us this please:  The bodies that were proclaimed

23     or established, were they included in the -- among the authorities?  Were

24     they in power, as a matter of fact?

25        A.   No.  They never had any power, because they were unsuccessful in

Page 33834

 1     being constituted, and initially they even couldn't agree on the seat of

 2     the Autonomous Region of Birac.  I just saw it here.  They held one or

 3     two sessions where they elected people to some commissions or working

 4     bodies, and as far as I know, that was the last thing they did,

 5     unfortunately, and that is why we had gone through everything we did.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what were the reasons to forge those

 7     documents in 1998?  What lay behind it?

 8        A.   I have explained it in detail last time.  I said clearly certain

 9     companies on the instructions of the RS government, when those

10     instructions referred to the functioning of the Crisis Staffs, well, in

11     those instructions the tasks of Crisis Staffs were specified.  Among

12     other things, it was stated that when the -- when the Municipal Assembly

13     and Executive Board could not function, they could make decisions about

14     state taxes so that such taxes be paid into the giro accounts of

15     municipalities.

16             Now, when in late -- well, at the end of that year, when the

17     government asked to have the calculations made concerning funds, and to

18     have them audited, it was discovered that the money didn't go to the

19     municipal account but actually they went to the accounts of a company.

20     When they tried to audit that information in Milici, attempts were made

21     to do something that would go directly against the state.  So in keeping

22     with the instructions of the RS government, an attempt was made to create

23     that document as if a decision had been made.

24             They tried to serve that decision on me, and there was no

25     rectangular stamp of the Municipal Assembly.  There was only the protocol

Page 33835

 1     stamp of the bauxite company in Milici.  I don't know where this one came

 2     from, but I could see it during the Krajisnik trial.  So it was a

 3     reception stamp of the bauxite mine.  I refused, of course, and it went

 4     unsigned.

 5             Later on when I refused, the managers of the company and certain

 6     people from the Municipal Assembly, including Mile Lalovic, did what they

 7     did.  The bauxite company in late 1992 sorted out the disputed tax

 8     amounts with the RS government.  I have that among my documents too.  I

 9     have shown it here.  So the figures seemed to tally and it turned out

10     according to that that the Milici municipal revenue that went to the

11     state was far greater than it really was.  I didn't want any part of it.

12             In all those documents you can see that they are not

13     contemporaneous.  Whatever document you pick up, you'll see that the

14     municipal stamp at the time looked different.  The stamp that was used

15     here was probably created based on the stamp of the Municipal Assembly

16     speaker in Milici in 1992.  It's just that instead of "Republika Srpska"

17     one can read the "Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

18             I'm not particularly interested in what those people did, and for

19     some personal reasons or disagreements with certain people I'd rather not

20     discuss it any further.  It's a settled matter in my book.  It's long

21     gone.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I would have several brief questions, but I will drop

23     them.  Thank you for having come and testified on behalf of the Defence.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Savkic.  On


Page 33836

 1     behalf the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.

 2     Now you're free to go.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise all together.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I just make a correction to the

 6     transcript.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  At transcript page 73, line 4, I gave an

 9     incorrect 65 ter number for the excerpt of Mane Djuric's diary.  I

10     said -- the proper number is 24607A.  So even though it wasn't admitted,

11     just so that the record is clear that that's the document I was referring

12     to.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And on another note, in relation to those two

15     Birac documents, they have both been admitted in a previous trial, that

16     was 65 ter number 17438A and 17442.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll note that.  We'll continue next

18     week on Monday.  The hearing is adjourned.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.47 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day

21                           of February, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.