130221ED

Page 34160

1 testimony. Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

2 Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. Vega Iodice.

3 Please proceed.

4 MS. IODICE: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Ms. Iodice:

6 Q. Good morning, Dr. Andolina. Yesterday, we met, and I'd like to

7 thank you for that. In paragraphs 5 -- in paragraph 5 of your statement,

8 you -- you stated that you met Mr. Karadzic about four to seven times,

9 and yesterday you told me that these meetings were very brief, were

10 about -- they lasted for about 10 minutes; is that right?

11 A. As long as I can remember things of 20 years ago, I confirm.

12 Q. Thank you. In your statement you also described in paragraph 6

13 and 7 how Mr. Karadzic facilitated your work in the Balkans.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it fair to say that without Karadzic's approval, you would

16 have not been able to go through the territory of Republika Srpska with

17 your trucks?

18 A. Sure. It would be impossible and very dangerous.

19 Q. Thank you. And with regards to your experience in Bihac, you

20 were asked to bring humanitarian aid because the population in Bihac was

21 starving; is that right?

22 A. Yes. That was the request of some members. I don't know which

23 corps, of the Peti Korpus, the 5th Corps of the Bihac army.

24 Q. Thank you. And apart from the letter you attached to your

25 statement, the Bosnian Serbs also gave you a medal for your work; right?

Page 34161

1 A. Yes. I don't remember exactly, but late in the 1990s I -- a sad

2 success. I brought a sick Croatian girl through Srpska, east to west,

3 until Banja Luka. Soon after the Storm operation where most of the

4 refugees were -- were running to east, sometimes burning churches. So

5 they were terrified and upset. So it would be dangerous to bring a

6 Croatian girl through that convoys and so on. And so the Serbian

7 authorities allowed me to keep the girl that reached Belgrade probably by

8 plane, kept the girl in a hospital almost secretly, and then we passed

9 through the territory of Srpska until Banja Luka.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. Therein after few minutes she died in the arms of the mother, as

12 requested.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. Sorry. And for this reason, I don't remember it was Dr. Karadzic

15 himself or other one gave me a medal since I improved the humanitarian

16 image of the Serbs.

17 Q. Thank you. And exactly like you told me yesterday, the Bosnian

18 Serbs used you as a sort of -- for -- for propaganda purposes; right?

19 A. Well, I don't know whether we could say it's propaganda. Anyway,

20 I -- I helped them to give to the world the best image of -- of

21 themselves.

22 Q. Thank you. And you also met General Tolimir and General Mladic;

23 is that right?

24 A. Yes. General Tolimir was --

25 Q. That -- that's all right. Thank you.

Page 34162

1 A. Okay. Enough.

2 Q. I'll follow up with more questions. And during these meetings,

3 you never represented the Italian government or any Italian institution;

4 is that right?

5 A. Not in the 1990s, no.

6 Q. Thank you. And yesterday you also told me about the meeting you

7 had with General Mladic. You met Mladic to facilitate the release of two

8 French pilots who had been taken prisoner; is that correct?

9 A. Another point, difficult to say. So I met Mladic for my safety.

10 In that period I was afraid that he was a little upset since I gave some

11 information about the two French prisoners. So I went to him, so

12 greeted, shaking hands, drinking with him, and assuring him that I was a

13 friend. So mainly for my safety.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. IODICE: And I would like to call up 65 ter 24605.

16 Q. This is -- this is the official note written by Ljubisa Beara,

17 who was the chief of security of the VRS Main Staff, about the meeting

18 you had on 17th of September, 1995, where you discussed the French pilots

19 and other issues.

20 MS. IODICE: And if you could go -- we could go to page 2 in the

21 English, and the bottom of page 1 in B/C/S.

22 Q. On point 3, we can see that you discussed with Ljubisa Beara the

23 issue of the French pilots taken prisoners. You can see that Beara

24 recorded:

25 "Ivic and Andolina have had an idea related to the downed French

Page 34163

1 pilots for whom we agreed that we do not know where they are. When the

2 time comes that we no longer need these pilots and we decide to free

3 them, if we have them, and if they are alive, we shall transfer them to

4 Andolina ..."

5 And as you confirmed --

6 A. I have no glasses, but as long as I can read, I don't remember

7 completely such document. I never saw it. "An idea related to" --

8 Q. This is a contemporaneous recorded --

9 A. I don't remember that Ilija Ivic was involved in the freeing --

10 freeing the pilots. No, I didn't know that they thought about giving to

11 me the French pilots.

12 Q. But this is what you proposed them. This was --

13 A. No.

14 Q. -- your proposal to them?

15 A. No. No.

16 MS. IODICE: Can we go to the last page of this document in B --

17 JUDGE KWON: We are hearing French translation.

18 Why don't you show the doctor the first part of this official

19 note again, the first passage.

20 MS. IODICE:

21 Q. This is, as you can see here, this is an official note that was

22 written by -- by the chief of security of the VRS Main Staff after you

23 met with him. This is a recording that he made of the meeting that he

24 had, as you can see on the first line, with him together with priest

25 Ilija Ivic. And you can see that the official note says:

Page 34164

1 "The priest Ilija Ivic and professor Dr. Marino Andolina, an RS,

2 and Italian citizen, who was awarded the Nemanjic order for his services

3 in the struggle of the Serb people, came to the security administration

4 on 17th of September of this year."

5 Does that refresh your memory?

6 A. No. I remember the medal, yes. Probably the name of the medal

7 I -- I don't know whether it is this medal, but the medal was for the

8 Croatian girl. After really --

9 Q. And if we can look at point -- if you could look at point 1 now,

10 you can see that during this meeting your first proposal to Ljubisa Beara

11 was to work together with him to discover Muslim extremists in Italy, and

12 with that information you would then go to the Italian parliament and

13 bring it down, make it fall?

14 A. Oh, yes. This I remember, but later, I think, some member of

15 security forces, probably as acknowledge -- since I cured his son, gave

16 me -- oh, great. Thank you. I guess that about terrorists, as long as I

17 remember, the chief of the security forces of police in Banja Luka or

18 near Banja Luka after -- after a visit of his son gave me as agreement a

19 list of Muslim terrorists or so-called alleged terrorists --

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. -- and then I brought it to the Italian security service.

22 Q. Thank you. And then the last part in the English, beginning of

23 page 2. You could -- you can see that what you told Beara at the time

24 was that you would bring this information to the Italian parliament and

25 say, "You want to bomb the Serbs because the Serbs are terrorists, but

Page 34165

1 the real terrorists are the Muslims."

2 A. I don't --

3 Q. You recall that?

4 A. No, I don't remember these words, of course. I didn't mean that

5 anybody was a terrorist. So I brought a list of Arabs that --

6 fundamentalist Arabs that were living in Bosnia, nothing else. Names and

7 addresses. I tried to give to the Italian SISMI, but probably was

8 rejected since considered not relevant. And now I am afraid that I

9 brought to the Italian security forces the list of the camps where the --

10 the Islamic were training the KLA fighters. So for this reason I

11 interfered with Italian politics in that period.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. IODICE: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE KWON: Just for record, transcript page 10, line 7, bring

15 this information to the Italian parliament and say, and the following

16 should be in inverted commas. So "you" being the Italian authorities.

17 Do you confirm, Ms. Iodice? That's your question?

18 MS. IODICE: Yes, Your Honour. It should be: "... bring this

19 information to the Italian parliament, and say," and then it would be

20 inverted commas. That was the quotation from the document. Thank you.

21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. You're not tendering this document?

22 THE WITNESS: No.

23 MS. IODICE: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry, I forgot. I'm

24 tendering this document.

25 MR. ROBINSON: No objection, Mr. President.

Page 34170

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We're --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Under seal, interpreter's correction. Under

4 seal.

5 MR. ROBINSON: I don't believe it was meant under seal. Anyway,

6 we would just like to tender the statement and six associated exhibits.

7 None of them are on the 65 ter list, so we would ask permission to add

8 them because they were provided by the witness after we had filed our

9 exhibit list.

10 JUDGE KWON: Did you say six?

11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.

12 JUDGE KWON: Could you go through one by one.

13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. The first one would be 1D13002, then --

14 JUDGE KWON: So you are not tendering the four items that were

15 objected to by the Prosecution through e-mail.

16 MR. ROBINSON: We're not tendering any of the videos because

17 we're going to lead some of them live, but we understand it's -- yes,

18 we're not tendering the videos as associated exhibits.

19 JUDGE KWON: So could you go through the -- just give us the

20 numbers that you are tendering.

21 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. So I've given you 1D --

22 JUDGE KWON: 13002.

23 MR. ROBINSON: Right. The next one we're tendering is 1D13003.

24 And 1D13004, and 1D51000, 1D51001, and 1D51002.

25 JUDGE KWON: How about 1D51003? That's also a video.

Page 34171

1 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct. That's a video-clip, so any of

2 the videos that we will use we will lead live.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just comment? I neither said

4 "MFI" nor "under seal." I'm tendering this package under 92 ter.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Mr. Karadzic did say

6 "under seal."

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lines 6 and 7.

9 JUDGE KWON: I myself often say that what I didn't mean to say.

10 Any objection, Mr. File, as to these Rule 92 ter statement and the

11 associated exhibits, six of them, that were tendered.

12 MR. FILE: Just one brief observation, Your Honour, which is that

13 I noticed recently that 1D13004 is almost a duplicate of D1656, which was

14 admitted into evidence in the Trial Chamber's decision of

15 4 November 2011. I don't know how the Trial Chamber wishes to deal with

16 that, but I just thought I would note that for the record.

17 JUDGE KWON: So if the parties could check there are any other

18 parts that were not included in one -- Exhibit D1656, then those parts

19 should be added to the previous exhibit, i.e., D1656. Otherwise, they

20 will have -- we'll admit the Rule 92 ter statement as well as the

21 remaining five associated exhibits.

22 Shall we give the numbers in lump sum.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The statement will be

24 Exhibit D3007, and the five exhibits will be Exhibits D3008 through to

25 D30012 respectively.

Page 34172

1 JUDGE KWON: And, Mr. Robinson, as to the video-clip that

2 Mr. Karadzic is planning to lead live, the Chamber had the opportunity to

3 take a look at those four items that were objected to by the Prosecution,

4 and the Chamber agrees that it's not relevant in that they provide more

5 information than necessary on crimes not in the indictment. So I'm not

6 sure that we need those items. However, the Chamber is happy to see the

7 video-clip with the number 1D51003.

8 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, should we say

10 something about this? I would like to ask Mr. Robinson to present the

11 view of the Defence concerning these video-clips and their relevance.

12 JUDGE KWON: I received Mr. Robinson's e-mail as to the relevance

13 as well. My point is that the witness's statement can be understood

14 without these clips and that -- in short, it's unnecessary to receive

15 this.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, are you speaking in terms of as an

17 associated exhibit since it's unnecessary as an associated exhibit, or is

18 there any problem with playing it, leading it live and having the witness

19 comment on it?

20 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from Mr. File.

21 MR. FILE: Your Honour, it's -- it's our contention that there

22 does not appear to be a claim that -- that these videos are linked in the

23 causality according to the argument that was made in the e-mail by

24 Mr. Robinson. I leave it in the Trial Chamber's hands, though, as to

25 whether Your Honours wish to view the clips in court or not.

Page 34173

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE KWON: It's only marginally relevant, but in any case, in

3 the circumstances, the Chamber will allow the accused to lead live as to

4 those clips.

5 Please continue.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I shall now read the

7 summary of Mr. Zoran Jovanovic's statement in English.

8 [In English] Zoran Jovanovic was chief of the communications

9 centre in Vlasenica Brigade. Also, he was manager of "Vlasenicke

10 Novosti" magazine.

11 The ethnic structure in Vlasenica where he lived was about 50/50

12 Serbs and Muslims. The SDS and the SDA were the strongest parties after

13 the elections, followed by Alliance of Reform Forces of Yugoslavia for BH

14 and the SDP. Power was therefore shared between these four parties.

15 Disagreements soon began and these grew with time. The founding of

16 national parties aggravated inter-ethnic relations as they disparaged the

17 other parties, Muslims in particular wanted a sovereign, independent and

18 indivisible unitary BH. Many Serbs were told to go to Serbia as BH was

19 not their country.

20 In 1991, when the war in Croatia broke out and the Muslims

21 supported the Croats in their effort to secede from Yugoslavia,

22 Zoran Jovanovic knew that if they were to succeed, the Muslims in BH

23 would do the same and war would be inevitable. Muslims sent men to

24 Croatia to attend police and military courses. The Muslims did not

25 acknowledge the JNA as the only armed force in Yugoslavia, and the Muslim

Page 34174

1 youth were not sent to the JNA to complete their compulsory service and

2 military training.

3 When a unit of the JNA was mobilised, SDA leaders urged the

4 Muslim members of -- to leave the JNA. The Serbs recognised that war

5 could be prevented if they remained united and told the Muslims this.

6 However, the majority of the Muslim soldiers left the JNA, and it became

7 clear to Zoran Jovanovic that Muslims were preparing for war. At the

8 same time, it was confirmed that the Patriotic League had been

9 established in Vlasenica.

10 Serbs were very worried about the situation in Vlasenica as

11 Muslims were arming themselves and forming military formations.

12 Prominent SDA leaders were procuring arms for Muslims. Information was

13 discovered by the army that demonstrated that Muslims had begun preparing

14 for war much earlier than originally thought. They were made -- they had

15 made plans to destroy buildings and kill or favourably exchange Serbian

16 people. In response to the -- in response, the Serbs then tried to

17 protect themselves by procuring arms.

18 In April 1992, Serbian Territorial Defence from surrounding

19 villages entered Vlasenica and took control of the town. No one was

20 killed in this operation and the Muslims were called upon to hand over

21 their weapons. About 900 weapons were handed in, and in the end of June,

22 up to 2.000 weapons had been surrendered. Negotiations were held with

23 paramilitary formations and a unit of the JNA. However, the situation

24 became more difficult due to debate regarding the division of territory.

25 Muslims and Serbs were moving from one part of the municipality to

Page 34175

1 another depending on the majority ethnic community.

2 In May 1992, Muslims killed eight Serb civilians, two of whom

3 were women. The civilians were on their way to work with the -- when

4 they were killed. Further, Serbs were ambushed during the course of

5 their work. This caused panic and many people, Muslims and Serbs, fled

6 Vlasenica.

7 The municipal authorities attempted to resolve the issue of

8 housing that had been created through the large movement of people around

9 the municipality. Abandoned houses were sealed off and used as

10 accommodation for Serb refugees, but this led to some Serbians feeling

11 embittered.

12 Muslims then attacked neighbouring villages, torching houses and

13 other buildings, taking Serb prisoners, killing many Serbian inhabitants,

14 including elderly people, and plundering property. This happened on a

15 number of occasions to some villages.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I should now like to ask you --

18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

19 Mr. Robinson excused himself.

20 Mr. Karadzic, the fact that I allowed you to lead live the five

21 video-clips does not necessarily mean that the Chamber agrees with its

22 relevance. But because the Chamber didn't have the opportunity to view

23 the video itself, we'll reserve the assessment after seeing the video

24 whether it is relevant and, as such, whether they should be admit the

25 later on.

Page 34176

1 Please carry on.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness be

3 shown 1D51003.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Could you prepare to explain to us what this footage is and from

6 what time it is.

7 A. We can't hear the sound.

8 [Video-clip played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] During riots in Vrsinje on the

10 occasion of the Muslim rally in Vlasenica. There are 260 young men in

11 Vrsinje who are ready for liberation of our region. We are all members

12 of the SDA party. We shall fight for independence."

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Could you tell the Chamber what this letter U represents that we

15 saw in the last sequence.

16 A. This entire footage was made towards the end of August 1991 in a

17 very remote village in upper Vrsinje in the Vlasenica region. This

18 footage proves that at that time when although the war was raging in

19 Croatia and Slovenia, I couldn't even dream there would be a war in

20 Bosnia, but this shows that the Muslims had begun to prepare for the war

21 much earlier than it began, and they are displaying the sign under which

22 they would fight for the liberation they mention in the video.

23 Liberation from whom? From what? Anyway, all this shows that

24 they were preparing for war, to free those territories for their own free

25 Bosnia -- independent Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it would all end in

Page 34177

1 bloodshed, in a bloody settlement of accounts.

2 Q. But what does the letter U mean?

3 A. The letter U is a symbol for Ustashas, fascists hordes from the

4 Second World War who perpetrated atrocious crimes in the whole region of

5 Birac and the entire Eastern Bosnia.

6 Q. Did you recognise -- you say in paragraph 16 that you recognised

7 some people.

8 A. I didn't know them personally, but I identified them when I got

9 this video-clip with the help of their neighbours who knew them. A

10 friend, Dragan Lukovic, helped me, who is a neighbour of this village

11 Gornje Vrsinje.

12 Q. In paragraph 30, you talk about the attack on Rogosija and then

13 Nedjeljista village that was burnt down.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D13005.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And could you explain to us this video. We have the transcript

17 of the translation.

18 [Video-clip played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Prodanovic, we shall ask him to

20 tell us what happened in this village.

21 "My neighbours, Becirevic Hasan, burned down my house. I got out

22 of my house and fled, and through the schoolyard I called for my son

23 Ilija and Nenad Pantic. I called, 'Where are you children? Our houses

24 are burning.'

25 "Behind us is the former primary school in Nedjeljista. You

Page 34178

1 built this together. Muslim and Serb children went to this school. And

2 how are you living this now?

3 "How? There were 70 pupils here, 70 of theirs and only 4 of ours

4 from three villages. Why should I continue to live here if I'm afraid

5 every night somebody will come in and slit my throat."

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have no transcript for this

7 video.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, tell us who made this video.

10 A. The reporter is myself, and the cameraman is Milan, not even

11 trained because we had just got that camera a few days before. It was

12 one of our first videos that we placed in the media.

13 Q. Thank you. Is this, from your knowledge, a solitary incident or

14 was it part of a plan? Did you have any information?

15 A. Several days before, on the 25th of June, the Serb village of

16 Rogosija was burned down. It had 10 to 12 houses. All of them were

17 burnt down. Even the cemetery was desecrated. And this village is next

18 door to Nedjeljista. And a few days later in June, Nedjeljista itself

19 was attacked. However, in Rogosija and Nedjeljista there were no

20 casualties because people had managed to flee, but all the houses were

21 looted, everything taken from them, and the houses were burnt down in

22 Rogosija. And most of Serb houses in Nedjeljista were burnt down,

23 because Nedjeljista was a mixed village. There were quite a few Muslims

24 very close by.

25 JUDGE KWON: We'll deal with the video-clips one by one. We'll

Page 34179

1 admit 1D51003. Shall we give the number.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D3013, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE KWON: And I'd like to hear from the parties as to the

4 relevance of the video-clip we just saw, 1D13005. Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before that, may I put a question

6 to the witness? May I put a question to the witness why I showed this?

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. How did this reflect on the atmosphere in Vlasenica of both

10 ethnicities?

11 A. Well, in the Vlasenica area, in late April, May, June, the

12 situation was such that tensions were increasing all the time. In other

13 words, the overall situation and the relations and life in the Vlasenica

14 area were chaotic. Refugees were arriving from Olovo, Kladanj, Gorazde,

15 especially many of them came in early June from Gorazde when a number of

16 Gorazde people were hurt in an ambush from Rogatica and 30 of them were

17 killed in the ambush. Vlasenica, if I may say, was occupied by refugees,

18 if I may put it that way. In my house, which is 93 square metres, for

19 two or three nights, 30 people were sleeping there in the house.

20 30 people slept in my house who were refugees from Rogatica. The overall

21 situation and all the relations in Rogatica could be described as

22 chaotic. Of course, this chaotic situation also resulted in - how can I

23 say? - the rage and anger and revolt among a certain number of people

24 there.

25 Q. Thank you. This document, which is 1D13003, that relates to

Page 34180

1 Nedjeljista and where it is stated all the things that need to be burned

2 and destroyed and the population killed. Does that refer to the same

3 Nedjeljista that we saw, and was something to that effect done?

4 A. After the torching of Nedjeljista on the 26th, one day afterwards

5 the Serbian forces carried out a counter-attack and drove the attackers

6 away, and in that military action by the Serbian Territorial Defence, a

7 bag was found, an officer's bag belonging to Aljukic Besir [phoen], a

8 lieutenant of the former JNA, a reserve lieutenant, who was in the

9 Territorial Defence with me, because I was also a reserve officer. We

10 knew each other very well. And his notebook was found in that bag, and

11 there was a list in that notebook of his, which I showed to you, where

12 you could see and it was written much before the action that they were

13 preparing what to destroy, who to execute, who to exchange and all of

14 this, and I mentioned all of this in my statement.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, this footage

17 from Nedjeljista is accompanying the exhibit 1D13003.

18 JUDGE KWON: All that you are tendering with respect to that

19 video is the clip we saw, the conversation between alleged Prodanovic and

20 Mr. Jovanovic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was looking at that area.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Is this footage longer than what we showed?

24 A. Well, it is a little bit longer, but Ljubo Prodanovic, who died

25 in 1995, he didn't live long, and he left his wife and children behind.

Page 34181

1 I don't know if she's still alive today. To tell the truth, I know his

2 sons who are working in Vlasenica.

3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. File.

4 MR. FILE: Yes, Your Honour. Just a couple of brief points. I

5 think the overarching points that we should remember are, first of all,

6 the Trial Chamber has in the past distinguished between evidence that was

7 presented in significant detail on issues that were considered to be

8 tu quoque and has excluded those, and I think that this falls within that

9 category. I also think that the contention here does not appear to be

10 that the diffusion of the videos themselves led to either increasing

11 tensions or to, as Mr. Robinson said in his e-mail, the killings at

12 Susica, which was -- was the primary issue related in -- to it in

13 argument there.

14 And as a third point I would add that what the witness has just

15 said actually tends to undercut the admissibility of these videos,

16 because he's discussing tensions arising from an influx of refugees, an

17 ambush, and other elements that are not related to the subject matter of

18 the video. I don't think the video aids the Trial Chamber in any

19 meaningful way, and for all of those reasons, I think it should be

20 excluded.

21 JUDGE KWON: While the witness's evidence could be understood

22 without this video-clip, I think it lies on the borderline, and since

23 it's a third-party statement which has been confirmed by the witness, on

24 that basis we have a basis to admit it in this case. We'll give the

25 number of it.

Page 34182

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3014, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, this was in June. In paragraph 31 you talk about

6 an attack on Kljestani and the killing of four elderly people. And this

7 influx of refugees, the killings in the around the area of Vlasenica, how

8 did that reflect upon the authorities in Vlasenica and their ability to

9 deal with this rage that you mentioned before?

10 A. It was very difficult. I think that the authorities were almost

11 powerless to deal with the rage of some people who had been expelled from

12 other areas, especially when these killings occurred in the Serbian

13 villages around Vlasenica. Then the rage grew among the villagers of

14 those villages whose inhabitants predominantly lived in Vlasenica.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now show the witness 1D4144,

16 please.

17 [Video-clip played]

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. While we're looking at this footage, could you please explain

20 what we're looking at and when and where this was made.

21 A. This was made in the Serbian village of Kljestani when four

22 elderly people were killed, two men and two women. They were all older

23 than 60. Of course, they were civilians who were not able to defend

24 themselves. Of course, they were taped here when they were already

25 brought into the house and when the preparations for the funeral already

Page 34183

1 began. And now we're looking at their relatives and neighbours and other

2 people reacting to this killing.

3 The same thing happened on the 15th of August, 1992. On the same

4 day there is another video recording. Fourteen people were killed in the

5 village of Gornji Sadici. We're going to probably see that later.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at that second part on

8 the same day. That would be 1D41143.

9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We stop here. I'm struggling to

10 understand the relevance of this clip as such. Why do we need to admit

11 it, Mr. Robinson?

12 MR. ROBINSON: I'm going to defer to Dr. Karadzic.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the Prosecution

15 deserves this, because they asserted that my speech at the funeral in

16 late September was inflammatory and that it led to the commission of

17 crimes. What I'm trying to show here is the position of the authorities,

18 that they have a hand in the crimes, and that other than my speech could

19 anything else have been the cause of the rage among those who perpetrated

20 these crimes. This is something that the Prosecution asked for.

21 Before Rogosija, before the funeral we can see there were two

22 villages where crimes occurred, and from June to late September there

23 were a number of villages that were the victims.

24 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber finds this clip irrelevant and

25 unnecessary. We'll not admit this.

Page 34184

1 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can I show the

3 following, and then I have two more to show to the witness. We can show

4 them and then you decide however you wish.

5 [Video-clip played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the

7 transcript of this video.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, there's no point if we do not hear any

9 translation.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a transcript. There is a

11 transcribed translation.

12 JUDGE KWON: Shall we stop here? Did you distribute it to the

13 interpreters?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the transcript

15 accompanies this exhibit. I thought the participants opened it

16 themselves.

17 JUDGE KWON: Interpreters are not able to open in their booth.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. While we're waiting, Mr. Jovanovic, where were these Muslim

20 forces based that made incursions into your villages? Where did they

21 come from?

22 A. These were mostly neighbours. Most of them were stationed in

23 their villages. For example, close to Gornji Sadici there was the

24 village of Korkutovici. It's still there today. And Cerska was close

25 by, also where there were strong military formations of the Muslim army.

Page 34185

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. Perhaps it's important to note, as far as this footage is

3 concerned, that I personally submitted criminal charges some seven or

4 eight years ago against the perpetrators of this massacre and the killing

5 of these civilians to the prosecutor's office of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 but they still have not processed the criminal charges.

7 Q. Does that mean that the perpetrators are known?

8 A. Well, I discovered some of them in my own journalist

9 investigative work. I did have the opportunity to get some information.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting, can we look

11 at 1D5104 while we're waiting to give the interpreters the transcripts.

12 The transcripts are -- are in e-court. I didn't know that the

13 interpreters could not open that. We can play it without sound, and we

14 can ask the witness to explain to us what this footage is and the parties

15 do have the transcript in e-court.

16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Shall we take a break now so that

17 you can provide the interpreters with the transcript.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, yes. Very well.

19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. File, how long do you expect your

20 cross-examination to last?

21 MR. FILE: 45 minutes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for half an hour then. We'll

23 resume at quarter to 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

Page 34186

1 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask this video, 1D4143, to be

3 played again with the transcripts that have now been provided.

4 [Video-clip played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] This is the charred corpse of

6 Milivoje Misic. When they caught this Gojko Vukovic, they yelled,

7 'Hurrah, forward, here is a white-bearded Chetnik. Fuck his Chetnik

8 mother,' you know. We came here and saw ashes and fire. And then we

9 came to extract the corpses. Here we found two corpses. Over there we

10 found a woman whose genitals had been mutilated. She is Peja Misic, the

11 wife of Nedjo Misic.

12 "Zoran Jovanovic: How many people have they killed and

13 massacred?

14 "Around 10 people, I think that 10 people have been buried.

15 With this and Gornji Sadici, 11 houses have been burned, and in the

16 neighbouring village, Jaskovic, five houses have been burned down with no

17 remains.

18 "Zoran Jovanovic: The Muslims did all this?

19 "All of it is done by Muslims, all neighbours, who were on good

20 terms with us prior to this freedom.

21 "Zoran Jovanovic: Samirka Savic.

22 "Samirka Savic: We came here when they started shouting,

23 'Hurray, fire from the right. Fuck their Chetnik mother.' They started,

24 all with one voice, with the help of shootings from all of the

25 directions. We ran steeply, we left. I didn't cross the creek. The

Page 34187

1 houses were in flames.

2 "Zoran Jovanovic: Jovanka Misic, who was raped, you have to look

3 there at the leg which has been mutilated with a knife. Stabbed in the

4 forehead. Just look how her forehead is. It is a great horror. Next to

5 her is Peja Misic. Look how she was slaughtered. Her throat was slit.

6 They abused her horribly. She was raped in great pain. You see how she

7 is. Look at how she was mutilated. You have to look at it here, people.

8 Pure terror and disgrace."

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Thank you. Who made this video?

11 A. My cameraman, and I was with him. On the 16th of August we

12 filmed it, the day after this massacre.

13 Q. And in paragraph 32, you talk about --

14 JUDGE KWON: I said we'll deal with the video one by one.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, this chain of events of attacks on villages how --

17 what impact did it have on the situation in Vlasenica?

18 A. There was an impact on the population and the people who either

19 hailed or lived in Gornji Nedzarici, and as well as a number of them who

20 had been living in Vlasenica for a while. It had a very negative impact

21 on their sentiment and their overall conduct. With certain individuals,

22 such changes could not even have been controlled.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. File.

25 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I would just reiterate my prior

Page 34188

1 objection.

2 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

3 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view that we don't need the

6 video in the evidence. What -- what is said in the transcript has

7 been -- in the video has been reflected. We'll not admit this.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. As the last clip, I

9 would like to show the following:

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In paragraph 32, you that say that on the 24th of September, two

12 days prior to the attack on Rogosija, the village of Podravanje had been

13 attacked; correct?

14 A. Yes. Podravanje is close to the Boksit mine. They had their

15 headquarters in Vlasenica. The attack was carried out on Podravanje as

16 well as the mine itself.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D51004.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We are merely reading out

20 the transcript as provided by the Defence.

21 [Video-clip played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Doctor: Well, you see, probably in

23 different ways. We have this one here that has been killed by some

24 explosive that had blown up. This one here, both of his legs have been

25 blown off, probably also his head and arm. This one has been run over by

Page 34189

1 a tank or something else. You can see that the chest is crushed, the

2 head shattered. It has almost made flat bread out of his head and body.

3 This one here above, you see both of his legs have been blown off and

4 probably burned along the way. We have this one here behind the door.

5 It is a totally charred corpse, but I have a feeling it had previously

6 contacted some explosives which blew off the arms and limbs, both legs

7 and arms, and that it was later set on fire and completely charred."

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Were you able to form an opinion as to what was the point or need

10 to attack the villages?

11 A. In Vlasenica municipality, the way I saw it, there was this wish

12 to destroy anything that was Serbian in the environment -- environs of

13 Vlasenica so that Vlasenica town could be completely encircled by Muslim

14 forces. The case of Podravanje where the Boksit mine was attacked, on

15 that occasion the premises of the mine were looted and destroyed. All of

16 the property was taken away.

17 Q. Thank you. On the 26th, it was Rogosija's turn. The funeral was

18 on the 29th of September in Vlasenica. Did you attend the funeral?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. In your statement you say that you do not recall my speech. Did

21 anyone tell you that my speech was inflammatory or aggressive? Did

22 people take note of it?

23 A. I have your speech among my documents, and as of late, when I

24 discovered I was to appear as a witness, I looked at it again, and I

25 basically know it by heart. I even have the footage here in case the

Page 34190

1 speech is still not present here. I have the integral version.

2 Q. I'm sorry, I seem to have mixed it up. The witness doesn't seem

3 to recall it.

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. File.

5 MR. FILE: It's okay, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I mixed it up. Another witness said that he couldn't recall it.

9 Who recorded the speech?

10 A. I did partially, and the other part was taken by my cameraman.

11 He wasn't very experienced at the time, so the camera -- the camera moves

12 a lot. In any case, you can be heard as well as those who were in charge

13 of mourning and Velibor Ostojic's address is also on the footage.

14 Q. What was your impression of the speech, Mr. Jovanovic? My

15 speech.

16 A. Back then, since I recall it well, my impression was the same as

17 it is now. You were trying to ease the tension to -- to soothe the

18 feelings of the people gathered there and the relatives of those killed.

19 When I heard, for example, that you were charged with causing

20 certain events who took place later on in that -- in those difficult

21 circumstances, I was shaken up as well, because many of my friends and

22 their sons were killed. But if I ever have a comment on that part of the

23 charges, I still see it as a kind of soothing, as a balm which you tried

24 to apply to their wounds.

25 Q. Thank you. Were people in general familiar with the chain of

Page 34192

1 Mr. Jovanovic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this

2 case has been admitted in most part in writing in lieu of your oral

3 testimony. Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the

4 Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Jason File.

5 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning to everyone.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. File:

7 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, I noticed that in your witness statement you

8 omitted to mention --

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. -- the positions that you held in the VRS during the conflict

11 from 1992 to 1995. It's true that you were a reserve captain in the

12 Drina Corps; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when the Drina Corps Commander Zivanovic set up the

15 Drina Corps press centre on the 19th of November, 1992, he appointed you

16 as one of the first members of the centre; correct?

17 A. Yes. I was the head of the information service in the

18 Drina Corps.

19 Q. General Zivanovic also appointed you to the position of war

20 correspondent in the Drina Corps department for moral, religious, and

21 legal affairs; correct?

22 A. No.

23 MR FILE: Could we look at 65 ter number -- one moment.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. He didn't appoint me.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be allowed to

Page 34193

1 finish his answer rather than being confronted with a document as if he

2 hadn't said something.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at the head of the

4 information service of the Drina Corps. Its basic task was to inform the

5 public of the events in the Drina Corps, be it in terms of war operations

6 or during periods of lull and in civilian life.

7 MR. FILE:

8 Q. Okay. I'm just going to refresh your recollection by looking at

9 a document, which is 65 ter number 24637. Now, we don't have a

10 translation in English, unfortunately, but can you just read starting

11 from the number 1, where it has your name.

12 A. "Zoran Jovanovic, father's name Tomislav, reserve infantry

13 captain, personal military speciality 31102, register number JTZ, 1951."

14 Which should be the year. "Appointed as a war correspondent in the

15 department for morale, religious and legal affairs, military speciality

16 31001, captain first class - major."

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I tender that document.

19 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

20 MR. FILE: It will have to be marked for identification.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something?

22 JUDGE KWON: That was my point. You didn't ask a question about

23 this.

24 Yes, Mr. Jovanovic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am unaware of this document. It

Page 34194

1 is possible that this is how it was drafted as I can see it here. I was

2 acting head of the information service, which means that I wasn't

3 appointed to that position since I was a reserve officer. I was not in

4 that position permanently since I was not an officer. It is possible

5 that this document was drafted as if I were a war correspondent. Indeed,

6 I acted as one because I co-operated with a number of different

7 publications.

8 MR. FILE:

9 Q. So you did perform the duties that are described here as a war

10 correspondent.

11 A. A war reporter would be a better explanation.

12 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I would tender this document.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P6149, Your Honours.

15 MR. FILE:

16 Q. Now, Mr. Jovanovic, one of the functions of the Drina Corps press

17 centre was to ensure the effective use of propaganda. Isn't that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you recall sending out invitations for seminars in the

21 area of operations of the Drina Corps that were directed at people in

22 charge of so-called information and propaganda?

23 A. Yes, on two occasions.

24 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to the destruction of the

25 Hajrija mosque in Vlasenica which you witnessed because you filmed it;

Page 34195

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, the Hajrija mosque was destroyed by VRS engineering forces;

4 correct?

5 A. I don't know whose forces they were. Most of the people involved

6 are no longer alive. I really don't know whose men they were. It was on

7 the 19th. I remember the date, the 19th of August, 1992. The

8 Drina Corps had still not been established and there were different

9 paramilitary formations milling about. I really don't dare assert that

10 they were the forces of the VRS.

11 Q. Okay. I'm going to read to you the open-session testimony of

12 Witness ST-179 from the Stanisic and Zupljanin case here at the ICTY. It

13 was at transcript 7523 to 7524, on the 11th of March, 2010. There was

14 the question:

15 "Were you aware of the destruction of any mosques in Vlasenica in

16 the summer of 1992?"

17 The answer was:

18 "I knew that this would happen some two or three hours earlier

19 since it was done by the engineering forces of the army. We were given

20 advance notice of some two to three hours in order to make sure that the

21 population living in the surrounding area was evacuated. As soon as we

22 received notice of it, I instructed the policemen to go and inform the

23 population in the surrounding area to leave the general area since we

24 didn't know when the explosion would ensue."

25 "Q. And do you remember, was this the VRS army of engineers or

Page 34196

1 was this the JNA at this stage?

2 "A. The Army of Republika Srpska. And the JNA was no longer

3 there officially by August."

4 Does that refresh your recollection as to the identity of the

5 individuals who were charged with destroying the mosque?

6 A. I have told you what the situation was like in Vlasenica. When I

7 learned that the Hajrija mosque would be destroyed, I inquired, since I

8 wanted to know why, who, and how, and how much explosives would be used.

9 When they told me the amount, I told them, "That's impossible, people.

10 You're going to level half of the town." They told me to mind my own

11 business. And as a reserve officer, I was in a situation to ignite a

12 hundred grams of TNT, but the amount they wanted to use would raze half

13 of the town. I am still of the opinion that whoever ordered it to be

14 carried out that way wanted to have half of the town destroyed.

15 My camera was on a tripod, and because of the blast it was

16 knocked over.

17 Q. Now, you had -- you had obtained film of two Muslims standing in

18 front of the mosque the day before it was destroyed saying that it had

19 not been desecrated; is that correct?

20 A. As far as I know, it had not been.

21 Q. Well, you went on Republika Srpska television in the middle of

22 September, and you showed a clip of two Muslims standing in front of the

23 mosque the day before it was destroyed, and you said that:

24 "This was the best proof that claims of all those who wanted to

25 characterize Serbs as barbarians and destroyers of sacred sites were

Page 34197

1 false."

2 That's correct, isn't it?

3 A. I don't know about it. Do you have that footage?

4 Q. I'd like you to answer the question.

5 A. You are relying on something I don't know about. You say that I

6 talked to some people and that I showed it. Perhaps there were

7 conversations like that, but I don't think I ever had it broadcast under

8 such circumstances, especially not after the mosque had been destroyed.

9 MR. FILE: I'd like to refer to 65 ter number 24633.

10 Now, what you'll see from this is that this is an excerpt from an

11 anthology of papers from a conference on the 1991 to 1999 wars in

12 Yugoslavia, which was held in Belgrade on the 7th to the 9th of November,

13 2001.

14 And if we could go to English page 2, B/C/S page 5.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we be told who set it up, who

16 set up that panel discussion?

17 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I'm proceeding through the document now

18 with the --

19 JUDGE KWON: But I think the question was related to the

20 provenance of this document.

21 MR. FILE: This document is a -- is an anthology of papers. It

22 was -- it was originally admitted as a Defence exhibit, DH1600, in the

23 Hadzihasanovic case. I should say this is -- what we're showing is an

24 excerpt from that. The total ERN range that was admitted into evidence

25 in the Hadzihasanovic case was Y005-2655 to 2707.

Page 34198

1 JUDGE KWON: What was the conference about?

2 MR. FILE: It was on -- the title of the conference, Your Honour,

3 is "1991 - 1999 Wars in Yugoslavia."

4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask what the basis is for

6 this question to be raised in cross-examination, because this mosque in

7 particular does not form part of my indictment.

8 JUDGE KWON: It's related to the credibility of this witness.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. FILE: So you'll see that the chapter we're talking about

11 here is called "The Destruction and Devastation of Islamic Community

12 Buildings in the Aggression Against BH 1991 - 1995." And I'd like to

13 direct the Court's attention to English page 4, B/C/S page 6. In the

14 B/C/S we're actually going to look at the left-hand side at the bottom,

15 the penultimate paragraph.

16 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, this paragraph says:

17 "Those who planned the destruction of the more prominent mosques,

18 prior to doing so, they would bring, under threat, selected Bosniaks to

19 testify in front of the said mosque that it was not desecrated and they

20 would video-tape this testimony for a story about that site. Such

21 recorded material was then kept and broadcast at the right moment. That

22 was the case with the Hajrija, a stunning mosque in Vlasenica.

23 Mid-September 1992, a story about this mosque was broadcast on Bosnian

24 Serb TV in which two Bosniaks were standing in front of this mosque and

25 testified that it had not been desecrated. On that occasion, journalist

Page 34199

1 Zoran Jovanovic said that this was the best proof that claims of all of

2 those who wanted to characterize the Serbs as barbarians and the

3 destroyers of sacred sites were false. Of course, the truth was totally

4 different; namely, the recording was done one day before that mosque was

5 destroyed, and it was broadcast about 20 days after it had been

6 destroyed."

7 Now, Mr. Jovanovic, isn't that an example of precisely the type

8 of propaganda you were trying to teach other so-called journalists to use

9 in the Drina Corps?

10 JUDGE KWON: No, no, no --

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think we all deserve to know who

12 said that.

13 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, this is absolutely

15 untrue, the stuff written in the book. It is absolutely untrue.

16 Absolutely. Give me proof. Show me footage. We'll find it. Does it

17 exist? I know everything I recorded in the four years, and I still have

18 it. It is absolutely untrue. Absolutely. It couldn't even take place.

19 I'll use an example of propaganda, because I saw some newly

20 created journalists who for different reasons came to the information

21 services in the Drina Corps. On one occasion I told them the following:

22 In order for you to understand what propaganda is in war, what it means

23 to inform at a time of war, I will quote Churchill, and I paraphrase:

24 The truth in times of war is so precious that it has to be accompanied by

25 a bodyguard of -- by bodyguards representing lies. As journalists, you

Page 34200

1 seem to be writing reports as if everything were a lie.

2 MR. FILE:

3 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, I think we're straying away from the subject of

4 the question.

5 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I would tender that document.

6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second. Let's collapse the

7 B/C/S and let's see the first page of English.

8 Yes. This says an anthology of papers, discussion from the round

9 table. Next page, second page. It says page 369, 370. And then page --

10 next page, page 3. And it continues, 371, 372. And page -- next page.

11 And the font has been changed, and it's in a different format, and I

12 can't follow what it is about, Mr. File.

13 MR. FILE: I'm happy to explain, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

15 MR. FILE: The existing translation that we had for this document

16 did not include these final three paragraphs on page 370, and so we

17 requested those paragraphs to be translated, and I provided the existing

18 translation for context.

19 JUDGE KWON: Then you may answer the question from the accused.

20 Is it a paper or is this an excerpt of somebody's speech at the

21 conference?

22 MR. FILE: We believe this is a paper that was presented at this

23 conference.

24 JUDGE KWON: Who said, or who wrote this?

25 MR. FILE: The author's name is on --

Page 34201

1 JUDGE KWON: Show us the page.

2 MR. FILE: B/C/S page -- page 5. Muharem Omerdic. It's on the

3 right-hand side.

4 JUDGE KWON: That's page 369, and the author's name was not

5 translated in English version.

6 MR. FILE: I think --

7 JUDGE KWON: Is my understanding correct?

8 MR. FILE: I don't think there's any B/C/S text around the

9 author's name that could be translated. It's just the name.

10 JUDGE KWON: So author's name was omitted in the translation.

11 MR. FILE: I believe that's correct. I also believe that that

12 translation starts further down the page on page 369.

13 JUDGE KWON: It started from the highlighted part.

14 MR. FILE: Yes, that's correct.

15 JUDGE KWON: I see. Yes, Mr. Robinson.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. I don't think I have to say too much,

17 Mr. President, but apart from the issues of reliability, this is a

18 third-party statement in 2001 that the witness has not confirmed in any

19 way. So under your practice, it wouldn't be admissible even if it was

20 even a somewhat less unreliable document than it appears to be.

21 MR. FILE: May I be heard, Your Honour?

22 JUDGE KWON: Would it not be related to the credibility issue,

23 Mr. Robinson?

24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, it's a relevant document, there's no doubt

25 about it. But it's a statement of a third party just like those that you

Page 34202

1 have excluded in the past. So it's been put to the witness. He made a

2 statement about it, and he hasn't confirmed anything about it, and it

3 shouldn't be admissible.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. File.

5 MR. FILE: Your Honour --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?

7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. This is a very technical issue on

8 the part of lawyers. Just a second.

9 Yes, Mr. File.

10 MR. FILE: I don't believe it's a statement. It's a paper from a

11 conference, and I also would rely on Rule 94 for a document that has been

12 admitted into evidence in a previous trial. I think that satisfies at

13 least the issue of authenticity, and I think that this -- because it is

14 directly on point to the witness's testimony and his function in this

15 trial, I would contend this should go to weight as opposed to

16 admissibility.

17 JUDGE KWON: I think for judicial notice of authenticity we need

18 some other requirements, but I'll consult my colleagues.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE KWON: Following the practice of the Chamber, we'll not

21 admit this at this stage, Mr. File.

22 MR. FILE: Very well, Your Honour.

23 I'd like to look at paragraph 4 of the --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say something, please?

25 MR. FILE:

Page 34203

1 Q. We're actually -- we're going to move on to another --

2 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. Jovanovic. We did not admit this, and if

3 necessary, Mr. Karadzic will take up the issue later on. Let's continue.

4 MR. FILE:

5 Q. I'd like to turn --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Q. -- your attention to paragraph 4 of your statement, where you

8 say:

9 "The ethnic structure in Vlasenica before the war was about

10 50/50, Serbs and Muslims, with a few Yugoslavs, Roma, Croats, and other

11 ethnic minorities. According to the 1991 census, Vlasenica municipality

12 had about 33.000 inhabitants."

13 You still stand by that statement; correct?

14 A. Yes. According to the last Muslims, there were -- there was a

15 smaller majority of Muslims, but nobody was over 50 per cent.

16 MR. FILE: Can we look at 65 ter 242L, please.

17 Q. You'll see that this is a copy of the 1991 census that you cited

18 in your statement.

19 MR. FILE: If we could go to e-court page 2.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask about this document? We

21 are again using exclusively a Croat document speaking to warring parties.

22 This is a Croatian document. Bosnia has its own documents on census.

23 Croatia was one of the warring parties in Bosnia.

24 JUDGE KWON: I -- I find this intervention inappropriate,

25 Mr. Karadzic. I think you can take up that issue in your submission

Page 34204

1 later on, or you can come back with Bosnian statistics if necessary.

2 Let's continue, Mr. File.

3 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, on this page you can see the entry for Vlasenica. In the

5 first column, you have the total 1991 population listed as 33.942. So

6 your statement appears to be close to that exact number. Then further

7 columns have the population divided into Croats, Muslims, Serbs,

8 Yugoslavs, and others, and you have some percentages. Now, looking at

9 the Muslim and --

10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's collapse the English. Yes,

11 please continue.

12 MR. FILE: That's better.

13 Q. Looking at the Muslim and Serb categories, you see Muslims were

14 55 per cent of the population and Serbs were 42 per cent of the total

15 population. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you would acknowledge that what you said in your statement and

18 again here today, that the population was 50/50 Serbs and Muslims is an

19 exaggeration. It was Muslims held an absolute majority with 55 per cent

20 and Serbs representing 42 per cent.

21 A. Please, I as a journalist always used the relevant data. The

22 census of 1991 you are showing me, I heard this data. I didn't know you

23 were going to ask me this. I could have brought this myself. Never once

24 was it adopted by any competent organ of Bosnia. The 1991 census was

25 done very randomly.

Page 34205

1 Q. Pardon me for interrupting, but you cited the 1991 census in your

2 own statement as support for the number of inhabitants; correct?

3 A. All right. Maybe I did invoke it, and I did say it was the 1991

4 census, but I never recognised it and I never used it in my work as a

5 journalist. I relied on the previous 1981 census and the earlier ones

6 from 1971 and 1961. It would be very interesting to analyse all that.

7 Q. So just to clarify, when you said in your statement that the

8 ethnic structure in Vlasenica before the war was about 50/50 Serbs and

9 Muslims, what we were supposed to understand from that was that you meant

10 the ethnic structure in Vlasenica before the war, i.e., in 1971, was

11 about 50/50 Serbs and Muslims. Is that what you're saying?

12 A. No, no, no. In my mind it's always been 50/50, except before the

13 Second World War, before the killings in the Second World War when there

14 was a Serb majority.

15 Q. I'd like to ask you about paragraphs 23 and 24 of your statement

16 where you talk about a debate that was raging in the Vlasenica Assembly

17 on the division of territory into Milici municipality, Serbian Vlasenica,

18 and Muslim Vlasenica. You go on to say that Muslims and Serbs were

19 moving from one part of the municipality to the other depending on where

20 their ethnic community was the majority. You said the Muslims were in

21 the northern part towards Cerska, while the Serbs were in the south.

22 Now, in 1991, the Muslims were also the majority in Vlasenica

23 town and many villages surrounding that. Isn't that correct?

24 A. In Vlasenica itself, yes. There were more Muslims. I don't know

25 exactly, but that is also in the statistics from 1991. Except I'm not

Page 34206

1 quite sure it was exactly true because of that campaign that was led in

2 1991, but the surrounding villages around Vlasenica are majority Serb,

3 around the town. I can enumerate these villages.

4 Q. Well, I'm talking about towns like Drum and Zaklopaca. Those

5 were predominantly Muslim towns.

6 A. Zaklopaca itself, the centre of Zaklopaca, is Muslim. Around

7 Zaklopaca are Serb villages. The same goes for Drum.

8 Q. Okay. So I'd like to ask you about paragraph 29 of your

9 statement where you say:

10 "The municipal authorities formed a holding centre for Muslims in

11 facilities belonging to the TO in the Susica suburb to protect them from

12 attacks by Serbs who had been expelled and who came from various areas.

13 I once went to the facility to take cigarettes and other supplies to some

14 of my friends. I asked what it was like for them there, and they replied

15 that it was not that bad because no one was disturbing them."

16 So first of all, you personally went to the Susica camp; correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Only that once, to bring cigarettes and some food.

18 Q. And while you were there, you met Dragan Nikolic who was running

19 the camp; correct?

20 A. No. No. I did not meet with Dragan Nikolic that time. I met

21 with Veljko Basic, an old retired policeman, and I asked him to let me

22 take what I had brought to those people.

23 Q. You're aware of who Dragan Nikolic is?

24 A. I knew that Dragan Nikolic, but I didn't see him that time, the

25 only time I visited. Later on I had no more time. I had other work. I

Page 34207

1 was on other assignments. I didn't see him that time.

2 Q. Now, you're aware that Nikolic pled guilty before this Tribunal

3 for crimes committed at Susica; correct?

4 A. I know that.

5 Q. And do you know that the judgement in that case that was rendered

6 on 18 December 2003, found that the hangar where the detainees were

7 housed was severely overcrowded and the living conditions were

8 deplorable. Whole families were kept there, including women, the elderly

9 and children as young as eight. Many of the detained women were

10 subjected to sexual assaults including rape, and that Nikolic admitted

11 his personal involvement in the killing of nine people, torture, and

12 facilitating the sexual assault and rape of women by allowing guards,

13 soldiers, and other males to have access to these women on a repeated

14 basis and encouraging sexually abusive conduct.

15 So my question to you is: When you talked to these friends that

16 you describe and you say that they told you it was not that bad because

17 no one was disturbing them, who exactly are you talking about?

18 A. One used to be the owner of the dry cleaners in Vlasenica. I'll

19 try to remember his name. He confirmed what I quoted earlier. I'm

20 trying to remember his name. I didn't expect this question. Very soon

21 after that, he was transferred to Batkovic in a larger group.

22 What you've just told me I never heard on that occasion or later

23 from relevant witnesses. Even that Dragan Nikolic whom I saw a few times

24 later never spoke about that.

25 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's be more specific. During your time at

Page 34208

1 Susica, did you ever stand by and watch a woman get raped?

2 A. Never. Never.

3 MR. FILE: Could we have - and this is not to be broadcast -

4 65 ter number 24643, please. We're not broadcasting because of the

5 identity of a rape victim.

6 Q. This is a doctor's referral of a patient to a specialist, dated

7 17 September 1993. I'm just going to read to you the relevant parts of

8 this.

9 "In the middle of April 1992, my daughter was staying with my

10 father near Susica camp. I was at home. Six Chetniks came. They were

11 armed. They ordered me to run to the camp. It was my neighbour

12 Radenko Krstic who gave me the order. They brought me to the camp. They

13 sent me to the guard's house where they were recording personal data and

14 taking belongings. Dragan Nikolic and Zoran Jovanovic were present

15 there. They ordered Pero Djuric from the Elastik to search me. They put

16 me in the hall. I was forced to sit on concrete. In the evening,

17 Dragan Nikolic came and pointed an automatic rifle at me and ordered me

18 to stand up. He led me to the camp yard and demanded that I tell him

19 where my brother was. I told Pero Djuric to kill me. They beat me,

20 mistreated me and told me that they had killed me husband. They beat me

21 terribly. Using a knife they carved some letters on my body.

22 "The second evening, Pero Djuric and Dragan Nikolic led me

23 outside again and took me to the guard's house. There was a bed and a

24 chair there. They interrogated me once more. Then Dragan Nikolic went

25 outside and Pero Nikolic told me, 'You are in my hands now, bitch.' He

Page 34209

1 raped me there in front of Zoran Jovanovic. The others sat around

2 watching what he was doing and laughing."

3 I'll stop there.

4 A. Question --

5 Q. Do you recall that episode --

6 A. This is incredible how flagrant this lie is, with this

7 Dragan Nikolic and Pero Nikolic, people I generally know. I never spent

8 five minutes together during the war anywhere, let alone in Susica. This

9 is unbelievable. I read on Muslim web sites all sorts of blatant

10 untruths targeting me, but I'm honestly shocked that anybody could have

11 written this. This has absolutely nothing to do with the truth. That I

12 watched this scene described here, it's incredible, especially because I

13 did not spend five of minutes together during the war with Dragan Nikolic

14 and all the other people named here. Perhaps I spent 2 minutes together

15 with Dragan Nikolic in some war zone somewhere.

16 This is incredible, Mr. Prosecutor. Especially since I don't

17 know this woman.

18 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I would tender that document.

19 JUDGE KWON: But I don't have any clue that Zoran Jovanovic

20 referred to in this document is the witness.

21 MR. FILE: Well, the witness has at least confirmed that he was

22 present in the -- in the camp.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Again this is the statement

25 of a third person. You see the date of September 17th, 1993, on the

Page 34210

1 second line below the name and so it's not a contemporaneous statement.

2 So under your practice it -- and it's certainly not been confirmed by the

3 witness. Under your practice it wouldn't be admissible.

4 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add anything, Mr. File?

5 MR. FILE: No, Your Honour, in fact, I'll just move on.

6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

7 MR. FILE:

8 Q. I just have a few questions about --

9 JUDGE KWON: How much longer would you need? I think your time

10 is almost up.

11 MR. FILE: I only have about four or five more questions,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

14 MR. FILE:

15 Q. Now, after 1995, when you were the manager of Radio Vlasenica

16 after the conflict, did you ever announce on a broadcast that

17 General Ratko Mladic was a great man whose role in Bosnia's war was to

18 keep Islam from spreading across Europe?

19 A. I still think that today, if that's what you're asking. Now,

20 whether I said it, whether there was a radio show discussing that,

21 whether journalists made a report or a programme where that was

22 mentioned, I don't remember, but it's possible.

23 Q. These fine. You co-authored a book in 2010, with a second

24 edition in 2012, called "Srebrenica, What Really Happened." Is that

25 true?

Page 34211

1 A. "Srebrenica, How it Really Happened." That's the title of the

2 book, not "what really happened" but "how it really happened."

3 Q. And do you stand by everything in that book?

4 A. Certainly, and will make more books. I'm a fighter for the

5 truth. We want the truth. I don't want to cover up any Serb crime, but

6 I don't want crimes against Serbs covered up. I'm sorry that your Office

7 of the Prosecutor took over all of that material but never proceeded with

8 any investigations.

9 Q. Do you stand by the statement in the foreword to the book by

10 Peter Priskil, and I'm quoting now:

11 "Srebrenica in its official version is a propaganda lie that will

12 not become the truth however loudly and frequently it is repeated."

13 And it goes on to say:

14 "The propaganda Srebrenica is NATO's Auschwitz fake."

15 Do you agree with that?

16 A. That was written by Peter Priskil, a German from Freiburg, based

17 on the facts that he was able to obtain. I, as an individual, am trying

18 to prove that the shameless lie called Srebrenica -- and I'm not saying

19 that there were no crimes by Serbs, but they were not the way they are

20 portrayed, and you will soon have opportunity to find out the truth.

21 Q. I'm afraid that wasn't my question. My question was: Do you

22 stand by that statement?

23 A. That it's a shameless lie, yes, but the comment is his vision

24 which is close to my heart, but I couldn't call it the absolute truth.

25 Q. Would you call the propaganda Srebrenica is NATO's Auschwitz

Page 34212

1 fake?

2 A. That's his definition. At the end, when all this is over, we'll

3 see what it really is. This is Priskil's statement. What things really

4 are we will find out after all the inquiries that are yet to be

5 completed, but we will never give up on finding out the truth as long as

6 we are alive.

7 MR. FILE: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. File. Do you have any

9 re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few questions. I'll

11 conclude soon.

12 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed.

13 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jovanovic, you were asked about propaganda

15 or information work. I want to ask you, did you establish as a

16 journalist that along with the armed conflict there was also a propaganda

17 war?

18 A. Certainly. We Serbs lost the media war. Why? Because our

19 people who were supposed to think about that were unwilling to pay for

20 the truth. We all thought the truth would prevail, and we still think

21 that today. But for the truth to prevail, a lot, a lot of money is

22 needed.

23 Q. When there was discussion about the destruction of the mosque, in

24 your view was this mosque destroyed professionally and with minimal

25 purpose?

Page 34213

1 A. Totally unprofessionally as far as I'm concerned. And concerning

2 that conference and what was said there, I never wrote a single line in

3 any publication, not a single letter. Why? Because it was done so badly

4 that half of my hometown was destroyed, and I was appalled by all that.

5 Q. What was the attitude of the authorities or the involvement of

6 the authorities in Vlasenica in this event?

7 A. I was there on the spot. Nobody from the authorities was

8 anywhere in the vicinity, nor did I see any evidence later that anyone

9 from the local authorities of Vlasenica had been involved.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was not said that the witness

12 said: Nor did I hear later about any of the authorities.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that case will probably

14 feature in one of my books that I've been writing over the past few

15 years, and the footage that survived will find itself in some

16 documentary.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Kovacevic [sic], is it correct what you said that you did not

19 hear then nor later than any of the authorities were involved in this?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that this destruction occurred on

22 the 19th of August, what about that event? How does that stand in

23 relation to the other events, what happened on the 15th of August, what

24 happened on the 16th of August?

25 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I'd object to that.

Page 34214

1 JUDGE KWON: Just before you answer the question. Yes, Mr. File.

2 MR. FILE: First of all, it's a leading question, but more

3 importantly, it's straying away from the credibility issue that was

4 explored on cross-examination.

5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I think that the

7 credibility of this witness has not been disturbed. I'm just asking what

8 were the motives for the destruction of the mosque. This was suggest --

9 it was suggested that this was done by the professional service of the

10 engineering corps of the army.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last sentence

12 by Mr. Karadzic.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the destruction of the mosque itself

14 is not relevant as far as it relates to the cross-examination. Let's

15 move on.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. We will leave that

17 topic then.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, you were not on the SDS list. You were on the

20 list of a reform --

21 A. The Alliance of the Reform Forces of Yugoslavia for Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina whose president at the time was Ante, Ante. He recently

23 died. I forgot his name for the moment. And the person --

24 MR. FILE: Your Honour, this is beyond the scope of

25 cross-examination.

Page 34215

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- representing Bosnia-Herzegovina

2 was --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, no. I need to

4 be allowed to complete -- the questions are 50/50. I mean, it's a

5 question of the number of the population of the citizens since there are

6 doubts cast as to the census here.

7 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes, Mr. File.

8 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I just don't see how his political party

9 membership is relevant to that.

10 JUDGE KWON: Let's hear the question.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So what did you say? Who was the head at the level of Bosnia?

13 A. It was Nenad Kecmanovic for Bosnia and at the level of Yugoslavia

14 it was Ante Markovic.

15 Q. And there were -- were there other Serbs in that party of yours

16 and in other parties that were not the SDS?

17 A. Yes, there were, in the Reform Forces and the SDP. This was the

18 former League of Communists.

19 Q. And who won the elections in Vlasenica?

20 A. The SDS had 27 deputies, the SDA had 26, the Alliance of Reform

21 Forces 4, and the SDP 3. That was the number per party. There were a

22 total of 60 deputies in the Municipal Assembly. Among the four

23 representing the Reform Forces, I was among them.

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last two

Page 34216

1 questions and answers.

2 JUDGE KWON: The transcript should say "SDA 26." Yes.

3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

4 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. In view of the fact that you and Serbs in other ethnic groups

7 were voted for mostly by their relatives, how do you explain the victory

8 of the SDA if the census is correct?

9 MR. FILE: This is a leading question, Your Honour.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The SDS, interpreter's correction.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, and you are asking me that.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. SDS, not the SDA. All right.

14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. File.

15 MR. FILE: These are -- this is a line of leading questions,

16 Your Honour.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Well, it's not

18 important to me. I will leave that topic.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Are you going to reformulate it?

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I can rephrase it. The Serbian electorate was divided among a

22 number of parties; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How do you view the SDS victory in relation to the census data?

25 A. Well, I tried to comment on that a little bit already. I know

Page 34217

1 that that census from 1991 was never officially adopted by B and H organs

2 or the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica because that was how the process

3 of adopting the census results went. There was also a fierce campaign

4 regarding the census, who would be the signatories in which villages.

5 And I would say that there were also some machinations regarding that

6 census. It is a fact that the SDS won in the Vlasenica municipality

7 where according to the votes by -- along ethnic lines, voting for the SDA

8 or the SDS, the distribution should have been different, regardless of

9 these parties that were leaning toward the left.

10 Q. And my last question to you, Mr. Jovanovic, is this, although the

11 document was not admitted but it was probably admitted somewhere else.

12 It says in the document that in mid-April 1992, her daughter was captured

13 and so on and so forth. In mid-April, did you have the opportunity to

14 see that there was Susica for Muslims, and did you go to Susica in

15 mid-April?

16 A. I forgot to say that. It didn't exist in mid-April. The only

17 visit that I made to Susica was in early June, the 3rd or 4th of June. I

18 was there one single time, and I even think that I have it written down

19 somewhere when this was.

20 Q. Thank you. And in mid-April, was Susica set up to receive

21 Muslims?

22 A. No. Absolutely not.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. I

24 have no further questions.

25 Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic. You could have been in the SDS. It's