1 Thursday, 7 March 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Again today we'll be
7 sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Robinson -- I'm sorry,
8 Judge Morrison being away due to his official functions.
9 Good morning, Ms. Edgerton. Please continue.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 WITNESS: DESIMIR SARENAC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Lieutenant-Colonel.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. I'd just like to go back to a couple of things you discussed
17 yesterday and one of them is at page 45 - I'm sorry I don't have the
18 updated page references available - where you discussed the potential for
19 mobilisation of Muslim forces within Sarajevo, and you said that after
20 the war they had 120.000 armed combat amounts in the city. Now, you
21 don't mean to assert that that figure of 120.000 is accurate, do you?
22 A. This is their information, from their sources. Of course I did
23 not have any other possibilities to check this.
24 Q. Well, your own deputy commander, Colonel Sladoje has actually
25 given a statement to Dr. Karadzic's Defence counsel in this case and he
1 says that through the intelligence service he learned that there were
2 42.000 fighters in the ABiH 1st Corps and their 24-hour mobilisation
3 potential was 71.000 - and that's found in 1D05656, paragraph 1. So
4 that's actually 50.000 less than the figure that you've given and, by
5 Colonel Sladoje's account, that actually comes from your services,
6 doesn't it?
7 A. I'm saying that they mentioned this information when their former
8 commanders wrote about that. It was published in the newspapers and
9 obviously they had an enormous potential.
10 Q. And whatever potential they might have had, Lieutenant-Colonel,
11 you knew, didn't you, that the morale among the 1st Corps forces was low
12 and continued to diminish as the war went on, their forces were dying in
13 large numbers, they had problems with -- and they had problems with mass
14 desertions; isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes. Such information was available, of course.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, also in your testimony yesterday you spoke on a
17 couple of occasions about laser-guided missiles, talking about shelling,
18 you said that it would have to be laser guided so that an artillery shell
19 would fall somewhere into the street or onto a square. And that wasn't
20 possible given the equipment that existed there. And then at page 65 of
21 yesterday's transcript, again you said:
22 "People on the ground were convinced at first that it was
23 certainly not Serbian forces who had done that, and in my view it was
24 open logic because this took place in a small space, small tight areas.
25 For a mortar or a shell to reach such position, it would have to be laser
1 guided to hit such a spot."
2 And I only want to ask you about this reference to laser guiding
3 missiles or ordnances. The point you were making yesterday, I take it,
4 depends on the assumption that if someone is targeting a small area, a
5 tight place or a narrow street, as you said, so the point that you're
6 making depends on that as opposed to someone just shelling -- generally
7 shelling or randomly shelling a populated area, doesn't it?
8 A. Yes. During my service, inter alia, I had mortars in my unit
9 while I was a platoon commander, of course, before the war and so on. I
10 know that it was necessary to use at least three missiles to reach close
11 to a specific point and to be able then to shell the area. That was, of
12 course, before the war and so on and so forth. So to have just one shell
13 falling in a specific small area, that's absolutely impossible. I was
14 talking about that, that it could have been brought by a bird or it could
15 have been laser guided, and it couldn't have been otherwise.
16 Q. So if you're aiming at a particular spot as opposed to firing
17 randomly and you don't have a laser guidance system, how far off are you
18 going to be?
19 A. This kind of artillery weapon such as cannons, howitzers,
20 mortars, generally speaking, I'm not aware that they can be laser guided.
21 The only ones that can be guided by laser are rocket systems and rocket
22 weapons. So simply, any possibility of using mortar shells with a laser
23 guidance system is not possible. There's no need for me to explain the
24 other thing because a mortar missile or shell simply cannot be laser
1 And for one shell to fall in one specific place, that's
2 impossible. If we had had such abilities, we would have selected more
3 profitable targets probably. We would have selected ammunition depots or
4 a unit that was well prepared and at a position or we would have selected
5 their staff and so on. Why would the Serbs target a market? Poor
6 people -- each and every Serb knew that if there was to be a mistake,
7 that we could cause a reaction of the international public, both
8 international and domestic public. So why would we shell people who were
9 queuing for bread or queuing for water? It was just a motive that the
10 Muslims had to cause revolt of their own citizens against the Serbs, on
11 the one hand, and, on the other hand, to provoke a reaction of the
12 international community.
13 Q. So let's go back to my question. How far off are you going to
15 A. I can only tell you from my own experience, from the time when I
16 was a platoon commander and while I had those mortars under me, it could
17 happen that the first shell was fired and it would fall on one spot. The
18 next one would fall at least 50 metres from the first one. If it was
19 50 metres, that was good, it could be a hundred metres because the
20 charges were different, the weight of the propellants and the charges was
21 different and the weight of the shells themselves was different. So you
22 could never very precisely determine where it would be, otherwise you
23 wouldn't need any corrections. Corrections are made precisely so that
24 you could hit one specific spot, and in order to fire as a group, you
25 have to correct the aberration. There's always the aberration and when
1 it's 25 metres that you manage to achieve then --
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sarenac, do you remember what the question was?
3 Could you ask the question again, Ms. Edgerton.
4 MS. EDGERTON: I can, although I think he's -- the
5 Lieutenant-Colonel has made his way around to an answer.
6 Q. My question was: So if you're aiming at a particular spot as
7 opposed to firing randomly and you don't have a laser guidance system,
8 how far off are you going to be?
9 A. Well, I said a while ago only that I tried to explain in more
10 detail, 50 to 100 metre, at least a 50-metre aberration in my experience.
11 Q. Thank you. Now -- just one moment, please.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MS. EDGERTON:
14 Q. So then, taking into account everything that you've just said, it
15 sounds like, if you're aiming at a particular target, it's going to take
16 at least three shells to engage it, to neutralise it; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, you could say so. I would accept that.
18 Q. All right. Yesterday Dr. Karadzic showed you a document and that
19 was D3092, and perhaps we could call that up on the screen so that you
20 can be reminded of what Dr. Karadzic showed you. It was an official note
21 regarding an interview with a Mr. Kostic, and when Dr. Karadzic showed
22 you that document he said to you:
23 "I will ask you to show us in this example how you worked and how
24 you obtained intelligence."
25 Now, looking at this document again, you would agree with me that
1 in order for this raw data to become intelligence it needs to be
2 corroborated by other means, doesn't it?
3 A. Yes, of course. You can see down here below the title it says:
4 Reference, official note of 27 February 1995. So this was the second
5 interview, the clarification of the issue with regard to this source.
6 However, we did not have the first and only information. He did not
7 provide us with the first information nor did it end with this. Rather,
8 as I already said, this information was forwarded to the security and
9 intelligence organ in the corps and then the corps' intelligence and
10 security organ had at its disposal the intelligence and reconnaissance
11 units, also electronic interception units, wire-tapping, and so on. On
12 the other hand, observers from our own unit, in a group of ten soldiers
13 in every platoon and company there was one soldier who was in charge of
14 observation. He had to observe the air-space, the battle-field, and so
15 on. And only when the conversations and interviews were confirmed -- and
16 to have the information confirmed, this was 1995. We already had an
17 enormous amount of data so we made a selection, what is true and what is
18 not. Immediately here we would do the analysis, and in the corps they
19 would do it when everything was sent to them. No action could be carried
20 out on the basis of our information from the brigade. Something could be
21 initiated only from the corps once they completed it.
22 Q. And not everything was sent to the corps, was it?
23 A. Everything was sent to the corps. If something was not sent to
24 them, then it means that that piece of information was not relevant and
25 that on the basis of it you couldn't -- otherwise, what would be the
1 purpose of collecting and writing down information unless the information
2 was sent to the corps, to the higher command, so that the higher command
3 and unit would see if there are any elements for something to be done.
4 So everything was forwarded to the corps.
5 Q. Now -- so looking at this raw data --
6 MS. EDGERTON: And I wonder if we can make the English page a
7 little bit smaller so that the rest of us can have somewhere close to the
8 same amount of text that we see on the B/C/S page.
9 Q. So this raw data doesn't disclose anything about how Mr. Kostic
10 came to learn the information he's providing, does it? This document
11 doesn't disclose that at all?
12 A. Well, I will indicate once again the information within brackets:
13 Reference, official note of 27 February 1995 on the interview conducted
14 with Jovan Kostic. In this report all the information is explained, how
15 he came by that, where he had been, and so on. And this is just a
16 continuation of the first note. So in the first note, all of this is
17 explained, and that is to say, there was another note preceding this one.
18 Q. And where would we find indications about reliability of the
19 source? Because there's nothing in this note .
20 A. Of course this note doesn't say that. This note includes
21 specific details that he mentioned in another interview, in the second
22 interview, not in the first one. And as this was sent to the corps for
23 analysis and processing, then we did not provide here. That was provided
24 separately in a report. If a report was written, then it was included in
25 a report, but in this case, this was sent to the corps and it was only
1 there that they made the comparisons. Their analytical department then
2 established everything else.
3 Q. Thank you. I don't have any more questions about this document.
4 I'd like to go on to one other area you discussed yesterday. You -- at
5 page 68 of yesterday's transcript, you gave Dr. Karadzic an account about
6 a sniping of an UNPROFOR French soldier who was killed in a observation
7 post located at the Jewish cemetery. And you talked about being assigned
8 to tour your positions with UNPROFOR. And I'd like to ask you about
9 that. So your evidence is that you personally accompanied UNPROFOR
10 officials to the incident location?
11 A. Yes, right.
12 Q. So who did you go with?
13 A. Well, look, I did not draw up a note about who I went there with,
14 but after that, the television of Republika Srpska wanted to conduct an
15 interview. I'm not sure whether they interviewed them. I resisted for a
16 while because as a high-ranking officer, a major at the time, without the
17 approval of the superior command I had no right to appear on TV.
18 However, from the command of the corps this was approved and they told me
19 that I could give an interview about the findings and so on. And this
20 interview can be found somewhere in the archives of the radio and
21 television of Republika Srpska because I know --
22 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel --
23 A. -- that it was broadcast on several occasions --
24 Q. -- that's okay, but my question was who you went with, and I take
25 from your answer you didn't -- you don't recall --
1 A. I went --
2 Q. -- is that correct?
3 A. I don't remember. But I know that I went there with UNPROFOR
4 officers who had come to lodge a protest with the corps command, and then
5 the corps command assigned me as the soldiers from my brigade were there
6 at the line. So they sent me to tour the lines together with them and to
7 assess whether it had been possible for a sniper to fire from our
8 positions --
9 Q. All right.
10 A. -- that is to say, the positions of the Sarajevo-Romanija
12 Q. All right. Now, this was an incident -- or during this incident,
13 the French soldier was killed at the OP that was on the transit road,
14 wasn't he, at the south end of the Jewish cemetery; is that right?
15 A. Yes, yes, in the south end.
16 Q. And that observation post, that OP, was located almost at the
17 confrontation line; is that right?
18 A. In that area generally, yes, that was built-up area. There were
19 buildings and high-rises and our lines were close, one next to the other,
20 so to speak.
21 Q. And that incident actually took place in August 1994, didn't it?
22 A. Yes, I remember that it was summer in 1994 and now you remind me
23 that it was in August, so probably.
24 Q. And yesterday you talked about SRK positions being down the hill
25 from the incident location, but actually having toured the line, as you
1 just said you did, you can confirm to us that SRK positions weren't only
2 down the hill from the observation post but they ran the -- along the
3 whole length of the Jewish cemetery and the whole west -- the whole area
4 to the western side of the Jewish cemetery; correct?
5 A. Yes, that is so. But the position of the Jewish cemetery and the
6 geographical feature in general is such that it was above us. The Muslim
7 positions were located so that they were above us. They were looking at
8 us from above, in that section, all the way to Grbavica.
9 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, did you know that there was a UN
10 investigation made of this incident? The French military police with the
11 UN forces conducted an investigation?
12 A. That was how I understood them. As soon as they arrived to the
13 corps command and when I went to make this tour together with them, to
14 visit the locations, the finding that they sent to the corps command is
15 something I'm not aware of, but I know that it was then concluded to the
16 effect that the Serbian side was not to blame.
17 Q. Well, actually, I'd like to show you the report, a couple of
18 pages from the report that was made on the investigation, and that report
19 is 65 ter number 24727. And the report's dated the 19th of August. And
20 just before I ask the question I just want to note, can you read English,
21 Lieutenant-Colonel, because, unfortunately, I don't think I have a copy
22 of this in your language and I can read you the relevant passage if you
24 A. Unfortunately not, no. I can't read English.
25 Q. All right. This is -- this is a copy of, as I said, the military
1 police company's report on their investigation of this incident.
2 MS. EDGERTON: And I'd like to actually go all the way over to
3 page 7 of this incident -- of this document.
4 [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, I'm sorry.
7 Q. At the last bullet point at the bottom of this page above item
8 number 2, we see the last of a series of conclusions that the military
9 police arrived at following their investigation. They wrote:
10 "It is impossible to determine exactly which side is responsible
11 for this murder because no other UN soldier can explain the exact
12 position of the blue helmet ... before he was killed."
13 So UNPROFOR seems to have come to a different conclusion than
14 you've indicated with respect to the cause of death of the soldier,
15 haven't they?
16 A. Yes, obviously, and they said this knowing the activities of our
17 soldiers and knowing that at Zlatiste, above the Jewish cemetery, some
18 Muslim forces were deployed. They were part of the 15th Mountain
19 Brigade. So we actually knew and it was clear to us that fire had not
20 come from our side. In addition to their findings, we were certain that
21 the fire had not come from our side.
22 Q. Let's go over to page 9 of this document, and at page 9 you'll
23 see --
24 MS. EDGERTON: And perhaps we could blow it up for the
25 Lieutenant-Colonel just so he can see it as clearly as possible. I think
1 we could make the whole -- thank you.
2 Q. At page 9 you see the confrontation lines between your forces and
3 the Bosnian forces mapped out, the area in question, that's the black
4 line. And then you see a small wedge above the white text box in the
5 corner. The bottom line of the wedge is marked with a number 1 and
6 that's the observation line or indicated as being the observation line of
7 the killed soldier. The point of the wedge, that's item number -- marked
8 as number 3 is the observation post on the transit road, as you know.
9 And the line above the top line of the wedge is marked with item number 2
10 is the line of fire of the shooting, which, Lieutenant-Colonel, covers a
11 substantial area within Serb-held territory in Grbavica and actually is
12 completely and far away from the potential line of fire you've just
13 indicated at Zlatiste, isn't it?
14 A. This is a small map, of course, and Zlatiste is this whole
15 geographic feature up there, right above the transit line. In other
16 words, the Jewish cemetery is part of Zlatiste, in fact, but is just
17 called differently. I can see this but I can't give you any other
18 opinion or explanation than I've already done.
19 Q. Well, it appears, actually, that the information you gave as to
20 the potential source of fire or line of fire is inaccurate based on the
21 military police investigations, isn't it?
22 A. Well, of course I did not have this -- these findings of theirs
23 available. When I was part of their team, they did not conduct an
24 on-site investigation. So I couldn't point out to them on the ground
25 right then and there because they didn't know every feature and every
1 point and so on, so I couldn't point out to them that there were other
2 positions above. However, at that point in time, this position where the
3 observation post was was not physically visible from our side.
4 Q. Your evidence is that this observation post was not physically
5 visible anywhere from the whole expanse of Serb-held territory indicated
6 to its west on this map, the observation post which would have been
7 placed at that location so as to be able to observe the front lines,
9 A. Yes, that's correct. That is my conclusion, or rather, we found
10 that out. We knew that it wasn't visible; however, from our positions,
11 because they were on a higher position in relation to us, they could
12 observe our activities and our positions without us being able to see
13 them. There are also buildings below there and certain vegetation and so
14 on so that he could and was in a position to be able to observe us
15 without us being able to see him because of where he was, of his
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'll have nothing further, but I
18 wonder if we could have this page of this document marked as a
19 Prosecution exhibit, given the extensive discussion on it, please.
20 JUDGE KWON: What page do you refer to?
21 MS. EDGERTON: This is page 9.
22 JUDGE KWON: Only page 9?
23 MS. EDGERTON: I think so.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. ROBINSON: I think it would also be good -- we don't have any
1 objection to that. I think it would also be good to put in page 7 which
2 was referred to earlier which contains the conclusions of the
4 JUDGE KWON: And as well as the first page. Yes, we'll admit
5 three pages.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6187, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I have a few. But I
11 would like to make an intervention in the transcript, page 13, on lines 5
12 and 6, the Lieutenant-Colonel said, "They were not visible from our
13 positions." And the Lieutenant-Colonel keeps talking about "positions,"
14 the positions of the VRS.
15 Now, could we please have the image that the document we've just
16 seen before, could we see it on the screens, page 7 first and then on.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, I will read the first
19 paragraph for you in English slowly and that will be interpreted to you.
20 [In English] "The soldier Carbonnel was hit by one bullet only in
21 the course of the cross-fire between the opposing parties ..."
22 [Interpretation] Cross-fire. So was this execution or was this
23 in the course -- in cross-fire in fact?
24 A. Is that a question meant for me?
25 Q. Yes, Lieutenant-Colonel. It is their claim here that he was
1 killed in cross-fire between the two sides. Would you agree with that?
2 A. Well, the first version when they first talked about this, there
3 was no mention of that possibility. There was only talk about him being
4 killed by a sniper.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have the next page,
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Page 9.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now, that's page 9 or the third page of the adopted -- the
11 admitted document. You talked about positions, dominant positions, and
12 inferior positions in geographic terms. On this map, can we see who was
13 on a higher position and who was at the lower position?
14 A. Well, no, you can't see that because this is not a topographic
15 map -- I mean, it is but this part which shows the settled area, the
16 built-up area, you cannot really see that. You can only see it if you're
17 on the ground. Because below the transit road, that is a depression, a
18 slope. It -- this part here slopes down towards Grbavica from the
19 transit road.
20 Q. Thank you. But in terms of the Jewish cemetery, please look at
21 the western-most and the eastern-most border. Which area is lower and
22 which one is dominant in this map, can you tell?
23 A. Well, the western border is lower than the eastern in comparison
24 to the Jewish cemetery, so the one towards the transit is lower.
25 Q. Thank you. And who was on these -- on this elevation towards
1 Debelo Brdo? Who controlled that part? It's all the way to the south of
2 this map --
3 MS. EDGERTON: Well, we could just look at the map that the
4 Lieutenant-Colonel marked yesterday as to who controlled Debelo Brdo.
5 JUDGE KWON: I don't see a problem asking the witness here.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Debelo Brdo, if I can find my
7 bearings here, was under Muslim control.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you were asked about the accuracy of the
10 lines. Now, in your interviews, did you check what this defector, this
11 person who had crossed over, knew about the lines or what he knew about
12 the firing positions?
13 A. Well, of course, the accurate positions were determined by
14 certain features that were used as reference points showing that there
15 was something at that place. There was -- there were -- there was
16 military personnel in the features. The weapons were outside in the
17 field. Now, in this particular case that's how it was. Now, we were not
18 able to get from him specific geographic co-ordinates, but he was able to
19 just tell us about certain features that -- and that's how we could
20 determine where that was.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, do -- if you have your statement before you --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would appreciate the
23 Trial Chamber allowing the statement to use his statement, if we could
24 perhaps pull it up.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I don't have it
1 before me.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Well, I can read out a portion of it, although it hasn't been
4 admitted, but just as a reminder. You were asked how you established
5 what --
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --
7 JUDGE KWON: What -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: I don't think it's appropriate --
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 MS. EDGERTON: -- to put his statement to him, his draft
12 JUDGE KWON: No.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Well --
14 JUDGE KWON: But I don't -- Mr. Karadzic didn't indicate why his
15 showing this document is necessary.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, I can indicate that because I
17 was the one who suggested Dr. Karadzic do this. The point is, in his
18 statement he has identified certain documents as showing the locations of
19 places where there were military objects, legitimate military objects in
20 Sarajevo. And it's our intention to make a bar table motion at the end
21 of his testimony to admit those documents --
22 JUDGE KWON: Why could he not have done during his direct?
23 MR. ROBINSON: Because that would take about four to six hours,
24 so that was the whole purpose of making the map because you wouldn't
25 admit the documents as associated exhibits so we came to the quandary of
1 how to not use our 300 hours unnecessarily. So we had the map drawn and
2 which depicts the military objects that are identified in these
3 documents. But yesterday, Ms. Edgerton pointed out that there was some
4 variation in the map, for example, with the dentistry ministry, between
5 where he marked it and where the location was. So we think that the
6 documents will help you determine exactly what those military objects
8 So what we would like to do is now simply ask the witness by
9 showing his statement about how he came to draw this map and to establish
10 that the map was based upon these documents which are reliable and which
11 are based on information received by him or his service. Once we've done
12 that, we can then make a bar table motion and there will be no question
13 as to the provenance of those documents we're seeking to admit through
14 the bar table.
15 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, still why does he need to rely
16 on his draft statement? Can he not lead it directly without relying on
17 the document -- statement?
18 MR. ROBINSON: Well, the statement contains references to the
19 numbers of the documents, so by showing him the statement and having him
20 confirm that -- there's three paragraphs in the statement that --
21 JUDGE KWON: So why don't we use a map and without relying on the
22 document put the question to the witness without the statement?
23 MR. ROBINSON: Well, if we do that, then there won't be a link
24 between the particular 1D numbers that we're going to ask to be admitted
25 in the bar table and the objects on the map, but if you think that's
1 enough for the purposes -- I'm telling you what our purpose is. If you
2 think it's enough and it won't be a problem later when we make a bar
3 table motion, we'll do it that way --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just tell us the number of the
5 paragraphs you are referring to as a -- by way of example.
6 MR. ROBINSON: 29, 32, and I think 35 is the third one.
7 JUDGE KWON: I'm not still persuaded why Mr. Karadzic needs to
8 show these paragraphs to the witness.
9 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I obviously leave most of this to
11 Ms. Edgerton, but I need to repeat to the Court what I said to
12 Mr. Robinson when he first indicated to us that -- well, at -- just
13 before this witness was to testify, that they would be using a map. I
14 told him at that time that that -- I didn't know exactly how they
15 intended to use it, but it appeared to be a transparent and obvious
16 attempt to circumvent the Trial Chamber's order. Now it's not only
17 transparent, in my submission, but it's admitted. This is merely an
18 attempt to get around the Trial Chamber's order in a way that not only
19 undermines the spirit of the order, but it -- and, in fact, frankly, the
20 letter of the order, but also provides the Chamber with much less
21 information than it was seeking when it made the order in the first
22 place, that these documents and the testimony be led live.
23 So Ms. Edgerton may want to address more detailed aspects of
24 this, but this is -- this is exactly what we were concerned it might turn
25 out to be and now it's acknowledged as such explicitly by Mr. Robinson.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. --
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, your order was that we not
4 have all these documents be associated exhibits because it was burdensome
5 to the Chamber to review 230 documents as associated exhibits. So based
6 on that advice, we decided to try to present it by way of this map. But
7 now that the accuracy of the map has been questioned, we think that it's
8 fair that the documents themselves be admitted and the Chamber can see
9 then for itself at the -- during its deliberations exactly what the
10 military -- legitimate military targets in Sarajevo were.
11 So we don't see that this is circumventing your ruling, but we
12 think that it's actually implementing it in the same way that the witness
13 is here to be questioned about the reliability and provenance of the
14 documents. And he's been -- that has happened. And so we want to make
15 sure that there's an adequate basis for you to admit these from the bar
16 table, that's the purpose.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a -- whether to admit those documents through a
18 bar table motion is a separate matter, a matter that the Chamber will
19 deal with when it arises. However, still I do not see the point why
20 Mr. Karadzic has to show this paragraph 29, et cetera, to the witness.
21 If necessary, he can deal with it one by one, as ordered by the Chamber.
22 And I expected that he would have done it during his direct examination,
23 but it -- after being challenged, he may deal with point by point through
24 the map and the documents relevant to those locations if necessary. But
25 showing this paragraph in lump sum does not serve any purpose.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, the problem is that it --
2 within the time that it would take for him to go through these documents
3 one by one, we could call about 20 witnesses. And it's our estimation
4 that it's not worth it for us to waste -- spend that kind of time --
5 JUDGE KWON: It's your strategy -- it's up to the Defence what
6 strategy it should take.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Well, then, the problem is that the Chamber is
8 going to be deprived of information that it ought to have. So if the
9 Chamber believes that these documents should be led one by one, we would
10 like to ask the Chamber to give us an additional four hours --
11 JUDGE KWON: No --
12 MR. ROBINSON: -- to the total of 300.
13 JUDGE KWON: No, it's out of the point. 300 hours is more than
14 sufficient. It is the -- the Chamber is of the view that it is
15 sufficient enough, and I will consult with my colleagues.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber sees no reason to change its position.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. President. We'll make the motion
19 for the bar table and see how it turns out.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
21 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, let me ask you this specifically. By
24 looking at the documents, were you able to determine that this feature
25 was used as a military object?
1 A. Yes, we established that without any uncertainty.
2 Q. I asked whether you established or not, and tell us this: What
3 about the Kosevo Hospital, how reliable are the documents on the abuse
4 of --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, just a second.
6 How does it arise from the line of cross-examination?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was challenged here, the map was
8 challenged, the sources, the grounds, they were all challenged, and I
9 intend to proffer these documents later on, and I would like to hear from
10 the witness here whether the positions that are mentioned here that we
11 have documents for, whether they are accurate and whether this was
12 checked. And my question was misinterpreted. It sounds as a leading
13 question the way it's worded.
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: Your specific question about the location or -- of
17 Kosevo Hospital is not arising from the cross-examination. Please move
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up the map
20 that was shown yesterday in relation to Bjelave and it had to do with
21 Cekalusa Street. Could we have someone's assistance here, please?
22 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, 6186, exhibit --
23 MS. EDGERTON: It's on the screen.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, can you tell us what Bjelave is, is that
3 a street or what?
4 A. Well, Bjelave is a neighbourhood, it is a settlement, a part of
5 town. It comprises a number of streets. There is a police club there, a
6 special police unit, and so on. And Bjelave was interesting and I wanted
7 to show that this happened in Bjelave because it was helpful to present
8 the positions of the weapons and units. So it was helpful to show it in
9 Bjelave as a settlement.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, if we go from here westward, what is
11 the next neighbourhood?
12 A. Well, Ciglane, or rather, Mejtas.
13 Q. Yes, that's to the south but if you go to the west?
14 A. Yes, Ciglane.
15 Q. Do you see Cekalusa Street there? We see the Gabelina-Cekalusa
16 Street there. You can also see the mosque. It runs parallel to where it
17 says "Ciglane" and it's on the Bjelave side. Close to numbers 42 and 57,
18 can you see it?
19 JUDGE KWON: Could the usher kindly put the cursor on --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes,
21 yes. I can see the street, Cekalusa Street.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. Can you see the green spaces down there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. To which settlement does Cekalusa belong of the two, Ciglane or
2 A. As far as that is concerned, judging by the names of the
3 settlements here, it's closer to Ciglane.
4 Q. And judging by the geographic configuration?
5 A. Well, as this here divides it, then it belongs here to Bjelave,
6 or, rather, to Mejtas.
7 Q. Thank you. Just another question, Lieutenant-Colonel. You said
8 yesterday that the map is not detailed enough. Are there any remaining
9 positions and how many which have not been recorded on this map and it's
10 been verified that they existed?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton --
13 MS. EDGERTON: -- that's a leading question.
14 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Dr. Karadzic has asked a very leading question.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think that's the question you put
17 in -- during your direct examination.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. All right. Thank you. Just
19 another question.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. How long has your military career been?
22 A. 32 years of pensionable service or actually 35, if we take
23 everything into account.
24 Q. Thank you. How long did you command mortars of all the time and
25 in which period of your career?
1 A. Well, I commanded the mortars in the first four years when I was
2 the platoon commander, that is to say, up until 1972, and otherwise, when
3 you work with them once you never forget it, the effects and the other
4 thing and so on. It's a very interesting weapon.
5 Q. All right. Just one more question, please. You were asked about
6 corrections on page 5 today. As for adjustment, fire adjustment, can you
7 use the fire adjustment for one weapon for firing from another weapon and
8 from a distant position?
9 A. Well, you see, if you fire from a group of mortars, four or five,
10 depends on how many because it depends on the specific unit, then you
11 make the fire adjustments from one weapon and the other weapons follow
12 the elements. And then the elements are changed, the angle, the
13 distance, and so on. So once the fire adjustment is made for one weapon
14 and if the result is positive, then you can move on to a group fire.
15 Q. And can information from azimuth 240 be used from weapons which
16 are on the 170 azimuth?
17 A. Well --
18 MS. EDGERTON: Objection.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Where does anything -- first of all, I didn't ask
21 a single question today about corrections, and where does anything about
22 azimuths arise from the cross-examination at any point?
23 JUDGE KWON: You asked the question with respect to the distance
24 from the original target, and during the course of answering the question
25 he talked about the adjustment. I will ask my colleagues.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber agrees with Ms. Edgerton. Move on to
3 another topic, Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Then the question would be, Lieutenant-Colonel, whether during
7 the war you were mostly an intelligence and security officer except for
8 this one period?
9 A. Yes, throughout the war and during the half year that I spent as
10 the battalion commander, I did not neglect my basic duty because I was in
11 charge of intelligence and security issues.
12 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
16 Mr. Sarenac, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for your
17 coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: MANE DJURIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Djuric. Please be seated and make
2 yourself comfortable.
3 Before your commence your evidence, Mr. Djuric, I must draw your
4 attention to a certain rule that we have at this International Tribunal,
5 that is, Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Under this
6 rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the
7 Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer
8 might incriminate you in a criminal offence. In this context,
9 "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an admission of
10 guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might provide
11 evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence. However,
12 should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a
13 consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
14 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question. But in
15 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled
16 under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid
17 against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false
19 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Djuric?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 Mr. Karadzic.
23 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djuric.
25 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
1 Q. As you hail from civilian authorities, I will not address you by
2 a rank though I believe you held a rank in the police?
3 A. Yes, I held the rank of lieutenant-colonel.
4 Q. Thank you. And did you -- and before that I will ask you just to
5 express my warning in accordance with Rule 90, I will just warn you that
6 we should make pauses between sentences and we should also speak as slow
7 as possible so that everything would be recorded.
8 A. Clear.
9 Q. Did you give a statement to my Defence team?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. That was quite fast. If you can just wait for a second and make
12 a pause.
13 A. Yes, I gave a statement to the Defence team.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D7826 in
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do not be confused by the redactions. By decision of the
19 Trial Chamber it was assessed that some parts were irrelevant, so just
20 neglect that. And taking that into account, can you see your statement
21 in front of you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Have you read and signed this statement?
24 A. I read it and I signed it.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the last page to
2 the witness so that he could identify his signature.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my signature.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. Is this statement one that truthfully conveys what
6 you told the Defence team?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. If I were to ask you the same questions today, would
9 your answers substantially be the same as in the statement?
10 A. Yes, absolutely. My answers would substantially be the same.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this package to be
13 admitted in accordance with the 92 ter rule, but there are several
14 documents that Mr. Djuric was kind enough to bring here himself and I
15 would ask him about them viva voce.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, first of all, I notice that
17 the redactions on the B/C/S version of the statement are not very
18 effective and I'm going to tell our Case Manager to replace that so that
19 the document is more -- is better redacted. Secondly, we're offering
20 four associated exhibits. We're asking that each of them be added to the
21 65 ter list because we didn't have them at the time that lists were
23 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Nicholls?
24 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: As regards paragraph 44, Mr. Karadzic, of this
1 witness which refers to a killing of Muslims, death of Muslims, in Drum,
2 I'm not sure whether it refers to the killing in the indictment because
3 the indictment refers to the time-frame of June but the witness is
4 talking about something in April. So I would like to deal with the issue
5 with the witness and how he came to know the incident as well.
6 Otherwise, we'll admit the statement as well as other -- the four
7 associated exhibits.
8 Shall we give the number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The 92 ter statement 1D7826
10 will be Exhibit D3093, and the four associated exhibits will be Exhibits
11 D3094 through D3097 respectively.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will read the summary
14 of Mr. Djuric's statement in the English language.
15 [In English] Mane Djuric was the acting chief of the
16 SJB Vlasenica and became the chief of the same SJB in August 1992. Also
17 he was a member of the Crisis Staff of Vlasenica municipality throughout
18 1992. Mane Djuric believes that in Vlasenica the population was roughly
19 half Serbian and half Muslim with very few Croats. Approximately the
20 same proportions were applied at the Vlasenica SJB after the multi-party
21 elections. However, competence was not taken into account when
22 appointments were made.
23 The relationship between Muslims and Serbs in Vlasenica was quite
24 good; however, this began to change after the multi-party elections.
25 When the Muslims and Croats proclaimed a sovereign BH, the Serbian people
1 realised that sovereignty was established against their will and that
2 none of their requests would be granted because they would be out-voted.
3 The Serbs looked for a way to protect themselves, and so the idea of
4 regional association in the Serbian autonomous regions was created and
5 autonomous regions of Birac was established.
6 The Crisis Staff was established in early April 1992.
7 Mane Djuric considers it was common practice for the municipal
8 authorities to establish a Crisis Staff when people's lives or property
9 were threatened. As a joint Assembly in Vlasenica did not function and
10 the security situation deteriorated by the hour, it was decided that a
11 Crisis Staff be established to monitor and take measures to overcome the
13 The Crisis Staff were not always able to consult the SJB chief
14 Sarajevo because the -- CJB, CJB chief of Sarajevo because at the
15 beginning the telephone lines were down and the road to Sarajevo was not
16 passable. Very soon after the Crisis Staff's creation, a decision was
17 made to divide Vlasenica municipality into three. Many of the
18 Crisis Staff members left Vlasenica for the municipality of Milici and
19 therefore the Crisis Staff could not function. Following this, boards of
20 commissioners were established to better inform the Presidency of the
21 Republika Srpska what the situation was in the municipalities.
22 By 19th of April, 1992, a large number of Muslims and Serbs had
23 left the area, and the Crisis Staff of Vlasenica declared an imminent
24 threat of war due to the impossibility of convening the municipal
25 Assembly. The departure of the Muslim citizens, the damaged interethnic
1 relations, and the large number of illegal weapons held by civilians.
2 Further, a decision was adopted taking over power in Vlasenica as the
3 joint Assembly could not function.
4 On 21st of April, 1992, the Vlasenica Territorial Defence was
5 mobilised because the property in public and socially owned enterprises
6 were threatened. Many employees remained at home and looting of the
7 buildings had begun. There was no fighting or armed resistance in
8 Vlasenica on that day.
9 It was common knowledge that both Muslims and Serbs were
10 obtaining arms before the outbreak of the war. The Serbs acquired most
11 of their weapons legally by being mobilised in the Territorial Defence.
12 However, the Muslims acquired most of their weapons illegally through the
13 SDA party. Although, the SJB knew this was occurring, it was very
14 difficult for the police to seize the weapons due to the mixed police
15 patrols. An attempt was made to disarm citizens who possessed illegal
16 weapons. A number of weapons were handed over; however, not all of the
17 Muslims co-operated. Intelligence was gathered and interviews were
18 conducted with them. Those who did not hand over their weapons had
19 criminal reports filed on them.
20 Further, a decision was made by the Crisis Staff to disarm all
21 active reserve members of the police force as the citizens no longer
22 trusted the joint police because it could not guarantee safety due to its
23 composition. The decision to disarm all of the reserve police was made
24 by the Crisis Staff alone without any orders from higher authorities.
25 After this a number of Muslim men did not return to the police station
1 for work. This decision was not an attempt to get rid of the Muslims in
2 the police. Nobody was given a decision on termination of employment.
3 The Muslims decided of their own accord not to become -- to come to work
5 Mane Djuric recalls that an Intervention Platoon from the army
6 caused problems in Vlasenica and that reports were filed against them,
7 and in some cases they resisted the police. It was proposed that this
8 unit be put under the control of the police; however, this was
9 unsuccessful. Therefore, an order was given for all paramilitary units
10 were disbanded and action was taken against those who broke the law.
11 A procedure was established for those citizens who wished to
12 leave Vlasenica to ensure that they were not being forced out of the
13 territory. Civilians could not leave until they signed a document saying
14 that they would leave the municipality voluntarily. This applied both to
15 the Muslims and to the Serbs. Many Muslims wanted to leave town;
16 however, many did not have their own transportation and therefore they
17 assembled in the front of the municipal buildings and asked for
18 transportation to be provided by the authorities. At the same time, many
19 Serbs came to Vlasenica as they had been forced to leave their homes by
20 Muslims and travelled to Vlasenica from neighbouring municipalities.
21 Mane Djuric denies that there was a camp for Muslims in Vlasenica
22 as alleged. He was aware that there was a holding centre for Muslims,
23 Croats, and Serbs who wanted transportation and shelter. Some people
24 went voluntarily in the evenings to spend the night in the centre before
25 returning to their own homes in the morning. Serbs wanted
1 accommodation -- wanting accommodation were accommodated in a building
2 centre in Susica which was secured by the Territorial Defence and the
4 Mane Djuric was aware that before the outbreak of the armed
5 conflict the Muslims were establishing their own armed forces because
6 they planned to wage a war to create a sovereign Islamic BH. By mid-1991
7 they had established the Patriotic League and the Green Berets in
8 Vlasenica. The Muslims also used the reserve police force as Muslims
9 were in the majority in this organisation.
10 Mane Djuric attended a meeting at which Radovan Karadzic and at
11 this Karadzic supported the implementation of the law advocating --
12 advocated helping the Muslims and Croats. Mane Djuric never heard of any
13 Vlasenica municipal officials say that Radovan Karadzic issued an order
14 regarding Muslims that could be threaten lives -- their lives or
15 property. Further, Mane Djuric considers that the Serbian army did not
16 conquer any territory, merely liberated what had been occupied by the
18 [Interpretation] I see the time. Would you like me to continue
19 with other documents or should we rather do that after the break?
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE KWON: For the planning purpose, I'm thinking about having
22 two 30-minute breaks, and if a further extension is necessary taking a
23 break of 15 minutes if there's -- I will -- I asked around so we'll be
24 able to know whether it's feasible. We'll take a break for half an hour
25 and resume three to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. And good morning, Your Honours. Just
5 a couple things before Mr. Karadzic starts. One, I won't go into it, but
6 at page 28, line 9, there's an incorrect statement by Mr. Karadzic about
7 the redaction. I don't think the Trial Chamber found anything irrelevant
8 in ordering it redacted. I won't go further than that.
9 Two, when Mr. Karadzic leads the additional documents live, I'd
10 request that he lead and just tell us where, when, and how Mr. Djuric got
11 these documents which he brought so that that doesn't come out of my
12 time, that basic foundation.
13 Third, my understanding from the Defence witness calendar they
14 provide us is that Mr. Djuric arrived in The Hague last Saturday. Now,
15 the revised transcript has 13 new paragraphs where they went over
16 adjudicated facts with the witness and got new comments on them. So I
17 don't see why when he brings documents with him it can't be done what the
18 Prosecution always does, which is to include these in a revised statement
19 or give us a proofing note or something. He complains about the amount
20 of time he has. He's got to lead this stuff live because he didn't
21 bother to incorporate it. Thank you.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. The reason it wasn't
24 incorporated in the statement is because we don't have -- we didn't have
25 enough time to get the documents translated. And since you don't accept
1 associated exhibits of untranslated documents we didn't put it in the
2 statement. Mr. Nicholls is correct, we should give a proofing note when
3 we receive the documents and some explanations of what their relevance
4 are and we'll try to do that in the future.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wouldn't like to
9 spoil the concord between Mr. Nicholls and Mr. Robinson, but Mr. Nicholls
10 hasn't spent a day in detention and I have to conduct my defence from the
11 Detention Unit, thus meeting the witnesses only once they have arrived --
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's an inappropriate comment. Please
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was supposed to be a joke,
15 Your Excellency. I don't know whether I managed to convey it but ...
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Djuric, do you have your statement before you in hard copy?
18 A. I do.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may the witness
20 rely on his statement on a hard copy before him?
21 JUDGE KWON: Yeah, if necessary you may refer -- you may consult
22 with your statement.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Djuric, kindly go to paragraph 44 of your statement in order
25 to shed some light on certain things. It says:
1 "I do know that people were killed on both sides in the fighting
2 in the Muslim villages of Pliskavice, Drum, Gradina, et cetera ..."
3 When you say that they were killed sometime later, what does it
4 refer to?
5 A. The first activity was on the side of the Territorial Defence in
6 early May. The next operation or activity was jointly with the army
7 sometime in June. As far as I know, in the previous activities there
8 were no casualties.
9 Q. Thank you. So on the 21st of April -- well, the victims on both
10 sides at the three locations, that does not refer to the 21st of April;
12 A. No, it does not.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, is it clearer
15 now what paragraph 44 refers to?
16 JUDGE KWON: I would like to hear what the witness knows about
18 Could you tell us?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drum village is in the immediate
20 environs of Vlasenica municipality. It's actually a town settlement
21 basically where both Serbs and Muslims lived together. It was typical of
22 Drum that in early -- in April, a group was registered there manning
23 check-points headed by Ferid Hodzic, the then TO chief who separated the
24 TO and he was appointed in legitimate fashion by the joint
25 Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica. One could hear shots fired and
1 provocations from the direction of those barricades aimed at Vlasenica
2 itself because the distance is quite small.
3 JUDGE KWON: What I meant was the Muslims -- death of Muslims you
4 referred to in your statement, your statement says:
5 "I heard about the death of the Muslims in Drum village from a
6 Muslim who lived there ..."
7 Do you remember that? Could you expand what happened and what
8 you heard and who it was?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That event took place in
10 early June, perhaps on the 2nd or 3rd of June. There was an operation,
11 so to speak, conducted by the TO and parts of the JNA where there were
12 between eight and nine casualties that I found out about. The next day
13 when a certain Begic arrived, a Muslim from that village whom I had known
14 before because he worked in the forestry company which dealt with cutting
15 wood, he came and wanted to ask that the victims be buried properly. He
16 said that he trusted the police, and indeed we met his request and made
17 sure that the victims were buried properly.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I will leave it at that.
19 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I don't think everything was recorded. Can you tell us, you said
22 that from Drum they were firing towards the settlement of Vlasenica
23 itself. Can you clarify? What kind of shooting was that and was that
24 the reason for the intervention?
25 A. I've mentioned the reasons for the intervention. There was
1 information that there were larger quantities of illegal weapons provided
2 by Mr. Ferid Hodzic. He also manned the check-point there because beyond
3 Vlasenica and Drum there is Cikote, which is a Serb village, and people
4 had difficulty passing through. They complained about it a lot.
5 Sometime during early evening hours, one could also hear and see shots
6 being fired, especially with tracing bullets, towards Vlasenica which is
7 in the part of town which is called Panorama. Such provocations occurred
8 practically daily.
9 Q. Thank you. Was there anything of military nature in Panorama,
10 the part that was being fired at?
11 A. No, it's a civilian part of town, it's a settlement which --
12 where the Panorama Hotel is as well as an additional 11 apartment blocks
13 called by the same name.
14 Q. [No interpretation]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Karadzic kindly
16 pause and repeat his question. Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Because of overlapping, you were not
18 heard, Mr. Karadzic. Could you repeat your question.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. The question was whether in the Panorama Hotel there was some
21 kind of command?
22 A. At the time in the Panorama Hotel there was no command. The
23 hotel functioned as such, and later on a unit was billeted there.
24 Q. Thank you. Let's have a look at the documents you were so kind
25 to provide.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 0 -- 1D07843.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Where did you get this document, Mr. Djuric?
4 A. This document and some others that may appear later is something
5 that I did not directly participate in, in the events they concern. I
6 found them or actually was given them during the hand-over of duty
7 between myself and my previous colleague Radomir Bjelanovic at the police
8 station. They were kept in our archives in a safe.
9 Q. Thank you. Let me read it out. It says:
11 "Request to suspend decision on the joining of Vlasenica
12 municipality to become part of the Autonomous Region of Birac."
13 Can we go to page 2, the last page, to see who signed it. The
14 date is the 17th of January, 1992; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who signed it and what is this document?
17 A. The signature is that of the president of the Executive Council,
18 Izet Redzic who at the time was the president of the Executive Board
19 which was lawfully appointed by the joint Vlasenica Municipal Assembly.
20 Q. What is this decision about? Can we go back to page 1? This is
21 not a Serb autonomous region. It was called the autonomous region;
23 A. Yes. Mr. Redzic was objecting to Vlasenica municipality joining
24 the Autonomous Region of Birac. The goal of that entity was to remain
25 part of Yugoslavia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what was that -- what was that he
2 objected against and what was he asking for?
3 A. Probably as a representative of the most numerous party in the
4 Assembly, the SDA, he put in their objection, they were opposed to this
5 joining. It wasn't their intention --it wasn't the purpose of it to
6 create independent regions as such, but to preserve the unity of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia. It states explicitly that he had been
8 provided with instructions or advised on a certain strategy that ran
9 contrary to the preservation of either Bosnia-Herzegovina or Yugoslavia.
10 Q. Does it say here that out of the 60 deputies, 27 were members of
11 the SDS, 26 of SDA, and then there was another leftist party? But the
12 ethnic make-up was in total 31 Serb deputies and 29 Muslim deputies,
13 taking into account the leftist parties as well; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The decision was passed by most of the votes of the Serb deputies
16 as well as most of the political parties; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. [No interpretation]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Karadzic kindly
20 wait and repeat his question.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. It didn't make its way into the transcript. What was their
23 reaction? What did they ask for and why?
24 A. They asked that this decision be suspended by virtue of this
25 document, and during the session the SDA deputies walked out of the
1 Assembly, whereas the representatives of the leftist parties of Muslim
2 ethnicity abstained.
3 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the next page -- actually, this is what
4 I wanted. Do you recall some similar situations to this one from the
5 joint Assembly? Was there any voting in the joint Assembly of
7 A. Yes. That situation kept recurring whenever out-voting took
8 place in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be marked for
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3098, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have 1D07844
15 next. Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. What is this document of the 30th of March, 1992?
18 A. This document is an assertion really that before a military court
19 there were proceedings against Izet Redzic for obstruction and take-over
20 of military documentation by the military organs on the 30th of March,
21 1992. It was prevented that the documentation be taken over, although
22 the persons who were supposed to seize it were authorised to do so.
23 Q. I'll read out the last part.
24 "Before a military court in Sarajevo there are proceedings that
25 were instituted against Izet Redzic ..." et cetera, et cetera.
1 And the last sentence says:
2 "The aforementioned person is charged with criminal offences
3 pertaining to Article 205, paras 1 and 3 ..."
4 I'll repeat it slowly:
5 "The aforementioned person is charged with offences from
6 Article 205, paragraphs 1 and 3 of the penal code of the SFRY."
7 So it was a criminal offence; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted and
12 JUDGE KWON: Did you say that -- this is related to the
13 proceedings against Izet Redzic for obstruction?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE KWON: And signed by Izet Redzic himself?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, because he was the
17 president of the Executive Board and it was probably that body which
18 asked that the register of documents be forwarded, and by sheer
19 coincidence he was one of the people involved. He was authorised to sign
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll mark it for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3099, Your Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have 1D07845.
24 The next page, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Djuric, kindly introduce this document to us dated the
2 24th of April, 1992. Who was writing to who and ordering what?
3 A. This is a TO document by the TO commander, whereby they are
4 making a security assessment in the territory of Vlasenica municipality,
5 with a particular stress on the possession of illegal weapons. Based on
6 their knowledge, they created this assessment and found it necessary to
7 secure preconditions to have the weapons handed over, seized, or returned
8 to the competent authorities or, to be more specific, to have the weapons
9 placed in the public security station in Vlasenica because the public
10 security station was competent to keep registers of weapons.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something, what village does the
12 first order refer to?
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
14 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry to interrupt, no objection, just for the
16 record in case it matters later, I think the date is 27 April, not 24.
17 JUDGE KWON: And I note it consists of several documents.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Please tell us, in addition to Turalici - can we see the next
23 page? - what other locations does this document relate to?
24 A. Well, the villages in the Vlasenica municipality. Some are
25 hamlets, some are local communes. Among others, we see Turalici,
1 Halihodzici, Zekici, Beros. Then in the next document, Kujancici,
2 Gramdzici [phoen]. Then in the next document, Donji Sadici, Dragasi,
3 Mramor. In the next document, Hrastovac, Sehmanovici [phoen],
4 Bajica Brdo [phoen], Dzemat. In the next we see Gradina.
5 So these are the places, settled-up areas where the
6 Territorial Defence and the security organ, when they conducted the
7 assessment, learned that there was a large quantity of illegal weapons.
8 Most of these were automatic weapons. And to that end, an order was
9 issued to these local units to engage in seizing these weapons, to take
10 activities to seize them, to be very careful and do it in a peaceful way
11 without any casualties and so on and so forth.
12 Q. Thank you. In lines 2, 4, 6, 8, it says:
13 "For the purpose of seizing weapons from citizens in a peaceful
14 manner without applying repressive measures except in the cases where
15 extremists opposed the implementation of this task."
16 And then a little lower, under 4, it says:
17 "Fire should only be opened in the event that our forces are
18 attacked by extremists."
19 Now, is this or was this successfully carried out in this manner
20 without having to open fire?
21 A. For the most part, members of these activities complied with this
22 order, and as far as I know, in all of these activities there were no
23 casualties or any major issues. However, there was this problem of old
24 weapons being handed in for the most part, whereas the illegally obtained
25 weapons, automatic weapons, were not really handed in because a number of
1 extremists continued to conceal those weapons. So that we could see in
2 the evening at the station that a lot of old weapons were handed in and
3 very few automatic rifles, and -- but we did have the information from
4 the field to that effect.
5 Q. Thank you. Could you just tell us whether the wording or the
6 substance of this -- the text is identical or very similar except that it
7 relates to different villages?
8 A. Yes, except that it relates to various villages and different
10 Q. Thank you. You were aware on negotiations on the establishment
11 of three municipalities in Vlasenica?
12 A. Well, yes. I was apprised of it. I knew that these activities
13 were under way, that there was talk about dividing the Vlasenica
14 municipality into three municipalities. There was a decision taken by
15 the Assembly, a joint Assembly, in other words, a decision taken by all
16 deputies that the municipality should be divided into three
17 municipalities - the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica, the Muslim
18 municipality of Vlasenica, and --
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter kindly requests that the
20 witness repeat the third name.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. You spoke a bit too fast, so
22 interpreters could not hear the name of the third municipality and could
23 you repeat from there.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. So at this
25 multi-ethnic Assembly a decision was taken to divide the municipality of
1 Vlasenica into three: The Muslim, the Serb municipality of Vlasenica,
2 and the Milici municipality.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. That suffices for now. Could you tell the
5 Trial Chamber -- could you list a number of places that would enter the
6 Muslim municipality of Vlasenica?
7 A. Well, one of the largest places was the Cerska village, and then
8 all the villages that were mentioned earlier in this document, they were
9 also envisaged as part of the Muslim municipality of Vlasenica.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you demand that Cerska be disarmed?
11 A. Yes. The Territorial Defence made an assessment on the disarming
12 of Cerska; however, that activity was not carried out then because there
13 was a large concentration of personnel there, a large number of
14 able-bodied men and armed men, so that the decision was taken not to
15 carry out that action then but, rather, to try to accomplish this through
16 negotiations. However, that did not -- that was not successful.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Albeit belated, yes.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Two things, Your Honour, one objection to leading.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: The right way to ask that, in my humble
21 submission, would be something like: What was the policy or attitude
22 towards Cerska and disarmament? The second is that although he has shown
23 these documents which the witness brought, this is a topic, division of
24 the municipality into three different entities, that easily could have
25 been included in the statement. So he's now moving on to a new area that
1 we really haven't had - unless I'm missing it in the statement - notice
2 of and using the documents as a vehicle to do that.
3 JUDGE KWON: Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic? And please don't
4 forget Mr. Nicholls' request, which the Chamber endorsed, that you lead
5 the witness as to the provenance of the document, i.e., where, when, and
6 how this witness got those documents. Please continue.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This
8 witness was a police officer. He did not take part in the negotiations
9 but he was aware of them. However, when we discussed this issue of
10 disarming and the toleration of these things in Cerska, I had to ask him
11 about this.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, Mr. Djuric, could you please tell us how did you obtain all
14 these documents? Did you obtain them in the same way, all of them?
15 A. Well, as I said a moment ago, I actually got these documents
16 during the hand-over of duties, I got them from my predecessor, the chief
17 Radomir Bjelanovic at the Public Security Station Vlasenica.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the previous
20 document for identification as a single document because it consists of a
21 number of different documents.
22 JUDGE KWON: Are they -- were they written all by a same person?
23 Because some documents were cut off in the bottom part so we cannot see
24 them all in the scanned version.
25 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll mark it for identification.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3100, Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now see
4 1D7846, please.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you tell us how you obtained this document and what this
7 document is about?
8 A. This is a statement by a citizen, Fikret Muminovic. He gave this
9 statement to the police station, or rather, public security station in
10 Milici. He was -- he provided a statement, a clear statement, that on
11 the 4th of April, 1992, he met Fadil Turkovic, who was the police station
12 commander in Vlasenica, and on this occasion together with others he was
13 issued a Schmeisser automatic rifle and some ammunition. However, in the
14 following days he handed over that weapon at the public security station
15 in Milici. He said that he had received it from Fadil Turkovic, the
16 then-commander of the public security station. So we can see here that
17 even Fadil, as a commander, as an official, a police official, was
18 involved in the illegal arming and distribution of weapons to Muslims.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
21 document, please, for identification.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection, Your Honour, on two counts. I didn't
24 object but that was an extremely leading way to answer -- to ask the
25 question. He could have simply asked: Do you know about the men in
1 these documents? Was there any criminal activity you know of regarding
2 them? Instead of having him read out the statement. Second, it's a
3 statement, a verbatim statement, and it should not be admitted through
4 this witness. They should call the declarant if they want to put in this
5 statement and go through the ordinary established method, which has been
6 discussed here many times, of putting statements in.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Well, it's nice to hear Mr. Nicholls saying
8 that -- been saying that since the beginning, but the rule the Chamber
9 has applied is that contemporaneous statements that are confirmed by the
10 witness can be admitted. And so the witness has confirmed this
11 statement, and therefore it should be admitted.
12 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President --
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second -- no, no, just a second --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may add, this is of the nature
15 of an official note.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Sorry to rise, Mr. President, but there are at least
18 two previous occasions when I came as -- as either in the capacity of the
19 lawyer calling the witness or in anticipation of just such a moment,
20 armed with all the jurisprudence and the case practice in this particular
21 case with regard to these materials, but did not on this occasion because
22 this matter has been ruled on repeatedly by the Trial Chamber as I
23 advised Mr. Robinson just a few moments ago before we started court and
24 for which he did not have a response. This falls within the
25 lex specialis, as the Court ruled in a precisely analogous situation
1 before, not too long ago. And these are -- kind of by pretending not to
2 acknowledge the repeated decisions of the Chamber on this matter and
3 others, we find ourselves dealing with unacknowledged motions for
4 reconsideration repeatedly.
5 But this should be a simple one. My best recollection is the
6 Court dealt with this in the very recent past in just the way I've
7 described. There aren't that many bright-line tests in the law or in
8 this case, but this has certainly been one of them that the Court has
10 JUDGE KWON: Is this an official note or a statement?
11 Mr. Djuric, could you read out the title.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The title here is "Statement." It
13 was provided to authorised officials, in other words, to police officers.
14 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?
15 MR. ROBINSON: I'm having trouble recalling the decisions that
16 Mr. Tieger has been alluding to. I don't think this is lex specialis
17 because it wasn't taken by the Office of the Prosecutor or the Defence
18 for the purposes of this litigation which would require it to be tendered
19 under 92 bis. So unless he's remembering something that I just have
20 simply forgot -- my understanding of the Chamber's practice is that
21 you've admitted statements of third parties, even un --
22 non-contemporaneous ones, where the witness has confirmed.
23 MR. TIEGER: Lex specialis -- the lex --
24 JUDGE KWON: No, just a second.
25 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, unless you have something urgent, I was
2 thinking about the same so we'll put this under advisement and come back
3 to this issue in due course.
4 MR. TIEGER: Very well, Mr. President. I'm happy to provide the
5 jurisprudence indicating lex specialis are statements taken for the
6 purposes of criminal proceedings.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I do remember that, but I wasn't clear whether
8 we admitted this kind of statement, but we'll see. I'll leave it at
10 Shall we continue.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In the penultimate paragraph, could you please tell us what it
14 says about the effect this has on others? What did this witness say
15 about it? And whether the weapons in Zaklopaca were handed over?
16 A. Well, the situation in -- is becoming more and more dangerous
17 from day-to-day for civilians --
18 Q. Could you please slow down.
19 A. Very well. Because the situation is becoming more and more
20 dangerous for citizens from day-to-day, I will do the best I can
21 personally that all those who possess illegal weapons in my village and
22 in the wider area to hand them over so that life could return to normal.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, were the weapons from Zaklopaca handed in?
24 A. Well, as far as I know they weren't; however, that was within the
25 competence of another public security station so I can't really claim
1 this. But I do know that not in a -- not in any village were the weapons
2 handed in in their entirety, and so it was in Zaklopaca as well.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have tendered this but now I
5 await your decision.
6 JUDGE KWON: But please bear in mind, Mr. Karadzic, that without
7 putting some foundational questions, just putting the document and asking
8 the witness what this document is about, is a typical way of leading
9 question. As objected to or indicated by Mr. Nicholls. So for the
10 remainder of the document, please bear that in mind.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. But this
12 was a document that the witness brought himself and that is why I asked
13 him why he had brought it, how he had obtained it, and what they
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that's the question you should put at the end
16 of your question, but that does not offer you the excuse for putting
17 leading questions, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Today you mentioned also - I'm not sure whether it was in the
21 statement or verbally - paramilitaries and crimes of a unit which could
22 not be placed under control. What was the situation as regards crimes?
23 Who committed them and what was the attitude of the police station to
25 A. From the very beginning and even earlier, there is paramilitary
1 groups, or let me call them just paramilitaries, appeared. One of their
2 goals was to commit crimes, or rather, to loot, steal, destroy property
3 and the like. In the public security station within its possibilities at
4 the time up until mid-May or thereabouts when stronger and more efficient
5 control of functioning was established could not oppose those groups and
6 para groups. Consequently we frequently came into conflict with them,
7 but later on when the station was established, we settled accounts
8 fiercely with these groups and paramilitaries. And by mid-August or
9 thereabouts we managed to have the situation under control and they were
10 no longer able to commit the acts which they used to commit in the area.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D07841.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Could you tell us what this document is and who drew it up?
14 A. This document is a response to a memo, a dispatch, requested by
15 the chief of the security service in the Romanija Bircan [phoen] centre
16 on the basis of the need to brief from the Ministry of the Interior.
17 This is our or, rather, my response to the questions contained in this
18 document. Inter alia, we are responding to the question concerning the
19 existence of these paramilitaries units. We replied that the
20 paramilitary units have not been registered in combat operations, but
21 that they were noted for their crimes, inter alia, one para group, the
22 so-called Red Berets, is mentioned. I can add that there was a group
23 called Vukovarci, that means the men from Vukovar, and other similar
24 groups that had no names at all. Their only goal was to loot and commit
25 other crimes.
1 As there was a question about co-ordinated action between the
2 army and the Ministry of the Interior, we replied that we were engaged
3 jointly with the then newly established military police of the Army of
4 Republika Srpska in providing expert assistance so that these persons
5 could be punished. We provided professional assistance along these
6 lines, or rather, it was agreed at a meeting held later that as far as
7 all members of the VRS were concerned, they should be prosecuted by the
8 army and the civilians should be prosecuted by the public security
9 station. So we gave maximum support to the army security organs in order
10 to have these people placed under control.
11 Q. Thank you. What happened and how did you resolve the issue of
12 civilians who were present in the combat operations zone?
13 A. The civilians in the combat operation zone came to Vlasenica and,
14 if possible, they immediately went to places they wanted to go to. The
15 closest places were Kladanj, Olovo, some of them went in the direction of
16 Tuzla, but all of them via Kladanj. As for those civilians who could not
17 be transported to the desired place on that particular day were
18 accommodated at one point in a Territorial Defence facility in Susica
19 where they would spend the night. And on the following morning the
20 activity would be continued, namely, they would go wherever they wanted
22 Q. Thank you. Did the Serb civilians leave also and where?
23 A. The departure of civilians from Vlasenica was specific because it
24 began as early as in February or March, so that some of the Muslims went
25 in the direction of Tuzla and then later on returned. But the intensity
1 of this movement increased immediately before and after the
2 21st of April. Generally the Muslims were going in the direction of
3 Tuzla, that is to say, what is today the territory of the Federation of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas the Serbs mostly sent their families to
6 Q. Thank you. Did you report about this holding centre in Susica to
7 your superior, that is to say, Mr. Cvijetic?
8 A. Yes, whenever possible. However, the typical thing was that in
9 terms of the territorial organisation of the Vlasenica municipality
10 before the war it belonged to the Tuzla region, so that in the beginning
11 when the power was down, it was difficult to send communication up until
12 the time when the relays were redirected and until we found other sources
13 of electricity. So we sent some dispatches by courier and then later on
14 we resumed sending reports electronically once we had the electricity
15 running again.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at the
18 next page.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Please read to us paragraph 3.
21 But slowly, please. Read out the third paragraph "In the
22 area ..."
23 A. "In the area of this public security station, one centre for
24 taking care of persons from the combat operation zone has been
25 registered. These persons are treated in accordance with the principles
1 and rules established by international humanitarian organisations. The
2 centre is under the jurisdiction of the Serbian army."
3 Q. Thank you. Which centre are you talking about here?
4 A. This was precisely the reception centre in Susica, because it's
5 undoubted, if you analyse it, that up until the 31st of May the centre
6 was only of humanitarian character. All the persons who arrived there,
7 arrived for the sole reason to be provided with transportation as soon as
8 possible, because during the day it was not possible to provide so many
9 vehicles and buses for all of them to be transported on the same day. So
10 up until that period the character was only humanitarian.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this please be admitted?
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And you are the author --
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or can we, rather, move it up a
16 little bit so that we can see who the author of the document is.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. This is a response
18 to the dispatch from the chief of the security centre who collated the
19 information arriving from all areas later on.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3101, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This was the response to the questions from the next level, the
25 security services centre, that is to say. Was it the usual practice, or
1 rather, how did you inform each other, these questions between you and
2 the security services centre?
3 A. In the beginning, as I said, there were difficulties during the
4 month of May and partly June as well because on the 24th of April,
5 Vlasenica was left without electricity which lasted until March 1993.
6 But as there are small power-plants in the territory of the municipality
7 then we used them, but we had to prioritise who would be supplied with
8 electricity, the hospital, for example, and the MUP. So the
9 communications were maintained by courier. The driver would come along,
10 he would pick up the mail, and then take it to them. And once the
11 communications system was established, then we would use teleprinter
12 dispatch or some of it by fax when that was possible.
13 Q. Thank you. What sort of information was requested from the
14 security services centre?
15 A. The security services centre of Romanija and Birac mostly
16 insisted on establishing the public security station as the institution.
17 It came from the top, from the minister, that the institutions of the
18 Ministry of the Interior are to be established and would work in
19 accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs, that is to say, the requests
20 regarding the security of citizens, the security of property and persons,
21 traffic, the rights of citizens such as issuing ID cards and so on. So
22 these were the most frequently mentioned information, and the insistence
23 was on lawfulness and on removing from the Ministry of the Interior the
24 persons who had committed crimes or had shown a tendency to commit
25 crimes. And we were doing this continuously from the very beginning.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D07842.
3 Thank you. Could we please zoom in so that the witness could see.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Can you please tell us what was requested from you here and what
6 your response was?
7 A. Information was requested once again about the existence of the
8 reception centre. The response was that people were accommodated there
9 for as short as possible, until the conditions were met for them to go to
10 the areas where they wanted to go.
11 Q. Who requested this from you?
12 A. Again it was the centre chief. Probably he had to respond to a
13 dispatch from the minister or somebody else from the ministry.
14 Q. All right. Can you please tell us this. You responded to a
15 question. Can you please re-tell us what the first and second paragraphs
16 contain. The first and the third, I apologise.
17 A. Yes, yes. In the first paragraph the substance is that in the
18 territory of the Vlasenica municipality there was a reception centre for
19 the accommodation of persons of both Muslim and Serbian ethnicity who
20 expressed a wish to leave the territory of Vlasenica municipality as soon
21 as possible up until the technical conditions for their departure were
22 met, that is to say, buses provided and so on.
23 Q. Which reception centre do you have in mind?
24 A. Also Susica --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speakers please slow down for the
1 purpose of interpretation. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Shall we start over again from your
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you please tell us what is said about the conditions in
7 Susica in the third paragraph, but please speak slowly.
8 A. The reception centre meets all the criteria in terms of
9 accommodation, food, and all the other provisions prescribed by
10 international institutions and it is also in accordance with the decision
11 of the organs of the Serbian republic.
12 Q. And was this the line of reporting to the ministry and all the
13 higher instances?
14 A. Yes. This was a response to a question from the chief of the
15 centre of public security because that was the subordination. He often
16 received an order from the minister to draw up a report concerning his
17 area. The minister would then collate such information for the needs of
18 various institutions of Republika Srpska.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djuric.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for
21 this witness and I move to tender this document as well.
22 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3102, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Djuric, your evidence in this case,
25 evidence in chief, has been admitted in most part in writing, i.e.,
1 through your statement and now -- in lieu of your oral testimony and now
2 you'll be asked by Mr. Nicholls in his cross-examination.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Djuric, we've met before, do you remember?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session for one moment,
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 MR. NICHOLLS:
13 Q. Sir, the --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 35030 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. July 1995, your boss is Dragomir Vasic; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At that point you were deputy of the station in Zvornik, the MUP
19 station, correct, that had authority over the region?
20 A. Yes. That was the security centre for the Birac region.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we quickly bring up 65 ter 24700. And go to
23 e-court page 12 in the English, Serbian page 8.
24 JUDGE KWON: Is the security centre the one that is to be
25 abbreviated as CSB?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. CJB, the public security
3 JUDGE KWON: SJB or CJB?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] C stands for centre, J for javna or
5 public, and B stands for security. The lower level would be SJB, public
6 security station.
7 JUDGE KWON: Was there a CSB in, for example, Sarajevo?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The public security centres --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Security services centres existed
11 before the war when everything was under the same umbrella; however,
12 during the war, the public security was split from state security.
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I'll leave it at that.
14 So in the document we saw, in the previous document, in which you
15 sent the report to the Sarajevo CSB, it was to the CSB, not CJB, at the
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. And I have to keep reaching ...
20 Q. Very quickly I just want to go through some call-signs that we
21 talked about in our interview. The communications centre was -- in
22 Zvornik CJB was Omega; correct ? You need to answer verbally. You
23 nodded your head.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Omega 1 is the chief. July 1995, that's Dragomir Vasic; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Omega 2, that's you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Omega 21 is commander of the PJPs. July 1995, that is
5 Danilo Zoljic; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Very quickly if we can go to English page 8,
8 Serbian page 6.
9 Q. And while it's coming up, you'll probably remember Tomo Kovac is
10 Tango 2, right? That's his sign? Deputy minister.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I would tender this document, either
14 just these pages or -- I think it's a useful document. It's the Zvornik
15 CJB call-signs for the whole centre. Whichever the Chamber feels is
16 appropriate. It's about 57 pages in English, but it's just all the
17 call-signs of the different people and units.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Robinson -- excuse me, Mr. President, we
19 would like to just admit those pages that are referred to so far.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll do so.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: That's fine. Perhaps the cover page, the first
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6188.
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you about a different topic now.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have P04937.
3 Q. I'm going to ask you about the MUP's knowledge of the operation
4 to take Srebrenica and the movement of the Muslim column, and we
5 discussed this in our interview.
6 Now P4937, when it comes up, is dated 12 July 1995. It's a
7 report up the MUP chain to the ministry from the chief, Dragomir Vasic,
8 showing that on the 12th of July, the MUP knew about Muslim soldiers
9 trying to cross at Udrc, the need to block these Muslim soldiers from the
10 column at Crni Vrh, who was leading them, that there's about 8.000 of
11 them, about 1500 of them armed, and that they're in the
12 Konjevic Polje-Sandici sector, and that this information was received
13 from four captured Muslims.
14 So basically, just can you confirm, this is a type of realtime
15 relevant information that the MUP centre in Zvornik was receiving?
16 A. Yes, this is a dispatch or a letter to the staff of police forces
17 and the minister's cabinet. The situation was such that we had to report
18 from one moment to the next so that they would be informed of what was
19 going on. As for these assessments, sometimes they may have been
20 approximate, other times correct. It all depended on what access to
21 reliable information we had at any point of time.
22 Q. Sure. But my point is that it was important to Zvornik, and we
23 all know about that later, I don't want to get into it now, but to be
24 aware of the movement of the column of Muslim men from Srebrenica because
25 there were soldiers in it and it could have been a threat to Zvornik;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 01932 , please.
5 Q. While that's coming up, this is another dispatch from the chief
6 of the centre, Dragomir Vasic, the next day, 13 July. It states in the
8 "In the early morning hours of 13 July 1995 (at about
9 0400 hours), the first PJP ... had contact with a large enemy group in
10 the Sandici and Konjevic Polje areas ..." There was a "fierce battle and
11 the enemy suffered heavy losses. However," unfortunately for the
12 Serbian -- Bosnian Serbian MUP, "Zeljko Ninkovic was killed ... and
13 Nenad Andric, Zarko Zaric and Nenad Filipovic were wounded ..."
14 You remember that incident, I suppose?
15 A. I recall this dispatch. Given the fact that I wasn't in that
16 part which was closer to Bratunac, I focused most of my force and energy
17 to protect Zvornik itself. Chief Vasic drafted this dispatch based on
18 the relevant information he had. I'm sure of it.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. May I tender that, Your Honours?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6189, Your Honours.
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. And just -- I can make this very quick so you may not have to
24 give lengthy answers in the future about what you're doing. My
25 understanding is that, as we can -- during this period, 11th to, say,
1 16 July, when we say there are mass executions of Muslim soldiers being
2 committed by the MUP and the VRS, you're actually in the communications
3 centre of the Zvornik Brigade most of the time. You're not out in the
4 field; right?
5 A. No, I wasn't in the communications centre of the Zvornik Brigade.
6 I was in the public security centre in my position as deputy, given the
7 fact that Chief Vasic was away. Since he spent the -- several days in
8 Bratunac. I was in MUP, in the seat of the public security centre.
9 Q. You're right. I apologise. That was a bad misstatement by me.
10 I'm normally dealing with VRS. That's what I meant to say, you were in
11 the MUP centre, not in the field; correct? And you nodded your head so I
12 think you agreed.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. Could I have 65 ter 24607, please. And
15 start with just the first page.
16 Q. What I'm going to show you, sir, is a notebook or diary which I
17 went through with you in Belgrade and which you confirmed at page 5 of
18 your interview that it was your notebook and your handwriting. Do you
19 remember this notebook?
20 A. Perhaps. In any case, I see it is my handwriting.
21 Q. Yeah.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: And we have the original here if anybody needs to
23 look at it.
24 Could we go to page 9, please, of both versions.
25 Now, Your Honours, just to be clear, what's in e-court is an
1 excerpt. It's quite a large notebook. We don't have the whole thing in
2 e-court and the whole thing isn't translated.
3 Q. Okay. Sir, I don't have really much time at all. I just want to
4 go quickly, same exercise we did when I met you in Belgrade, talking
5 about what these pages of your notebook show. This one we can see here,
6 and we talked about it in your interview, was from the 11 July, you've
7 got the date there, at a time when Predrag Blagojevic, body-guard for
8 President Karadzic, apparently refuelled in Zvornik; correct?
9 A. Probably, since I noted it down, although I can't recall it
10 off-the-cuff. Predrag Blagojevic, although I can't recall who the person
11 was, but I can suppose he is as you say. I noted down that we issued him
12 with 40 litres of diesel fuel.
13 Q. Okay.
14 JUDGE KWON: While you are asking, could I see the original
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. All right. And below that we see Karisik came by and expressed
20 an interest. And just quickly in our interview you told us that must
21 have been Milenko Karisik; correct?
22 A. Most likely, yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we skip to page 11 now, moving quite
1 Q. Now here, somewhat in line with the dispatches from Dragomir
2 Vasic we saw on the 12th of July, the first one, we discussed in our
3 interview how this was the 12th of July and where we see there
4 Ravni Buljim, elevation 651, and then below it 651 circled, Bokcin Potok.
5 Again, that was just information received about the movement of the
6 column of Muslim men from Srebrenica; correct?
7 A. Approximately, yes.
8 Q. And at the bottom of the page, Sandici, Lolici, Kamenica, MUP,
9 just locations of -- it's common knowledge now where the MUP was going to
10 have to block the column on the road; correct?
11 A. MUP forces were deployed, and that was my understanding at the
12 time, to secure the road for the transport of civilians which were to
13 travel along that route.
14 Q. Okay. On the 12th of July, the MUP, PJPs, and Borovcanin's
15 special units were also blocking and capturing Muslim troops. I don't
16 want to go through the documents again, but the one from 12 July we saw
17 with Dragomir Vasic talked about the difficulties of fighting the Muslim
18 soldiers and how they just captured four Muslim prisoners; correct?
19 A. As I said, I can't be specific since I wasn't in that area. But
20 I do believe that there were some problems as part of that communication.
21 And if Chief Vasic reported it, I suppose it is correct or approximately
22 correct to the best of his knowledge at the time.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to page 14 -- excuse me, 13 of the
24 English, same in the Serbian.
25 Q. All right, yeah, very quickly. The bottom of the page here it
2 "1 dead.
3 "Nenad Andric.
4 "Zarko Zaric.
5 "Nenad Filipovic wounded."
6 Those were the same people we saw in Vasic dispatch,
7 65 ter 01932, just a few minutes ago, that that took place early on the
8 morning of the 13th; right?
9 A. That's right.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. Let's turn the page, page 14.
11 Q. So the 14th of July now -- 13th of July, excuse me, 1995. And if
12 you recall in our interview, that's page 28 of our interview, that the
13 number there and the Deronjic was for Miroslav Deronjic in Bratunac, but
14 you couldn't remember why his name was written there and what that
15 contact was about; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you don't remember today, do you?
18 A. No. Perhaps I can add something, Your Honours. This note
19 contains information as events developed as a reminder, and frequently I
20 simply noted things down without any further clarification. At that
21 point in time I may have been able to recall it, but it's much more
22 difficult from this position here today. It's not a diary.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
25 Could we now go to page 16, English and B/C/S.
1 Q. Only one part I want to show you there is in the middle. It says
2 Ljubisa for Krstic. We showed you the intercept I believe in our
3 interview of Krstic, General Krstic and Ljubisa Borovcanin speaking on
4 that day. So here, as you say, it's not a diary, but you've made a note
5 that Ljubisa was looking for Krstic; correct? Borovcanin was looking for
6 General Krstic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to page 18. Very quickly there it's
10 just a meeting held on 13 July at 1800 hours. Go to the next page,
11 page 19 for the record in both languages.
12 Q. So here we are in the evening of 13 July, and you've made
13 notifications same day we saw Nenad -- Miroslav Deronjic's name in here
14 of secure the buses, call regarding the buses' security, problem with
15 buses and security, problem of Milici, security reinforced as an
17 And in the interview we put it to you that that was about the
18 buses filled with Muslim men, prisoners, who'd been captured and
19 separated -- were separated at Potocari, who were being held in Bratunac,
20 and we'll talk about the convoy in a minute. Was that what those
21 notifications were about, security for the prisoners on those buses?
22 A. No. I think the problem is the buses and securing the buses. It
23 was asked that a certain number of buses be sent to Bratunac. One of the
24 ways to communicate that was to use our communications centre.
25 Q. Yeah, okay, but on the 13th of July the entire -- all the women
1 and children are gone from Srebrenica. This is about buses in Bratunac;
3 A. I suppose so.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I'm through with that for a moment,
5 although we'll probably come back to it if I have time. I'll ask you
6 about something else that you discussed in our interview, that was at
7 page 41, 65 ter is 24676. I'm not going to bring it up. But I asked you
8 and you confirmed that you had no advance knowledge that on the
9 14th of July a column of trucks and buses from Bratunac carrying
10 prisoners was going to arrive in Zvornik?
11 A. No, I had no such knowledge whatsoever, really.
12 Q. Right. Okay. However - and we'll go through it in a
13 minute - you also made it very clear that you were at the Hotel Vidikovac
14 in Divic, on the little bend that sticks out, near Zvornik, when that
15 convoy of buses and trucks filled with Muslim prisoners arrived; correct?
16 A. Correct. I was in the Vidikovac Hotel and I could see the convoy
17 from the terrace. It was around noon or a bit later.
18 Q. Yeah. And it was a surprise to you when you saw this huge convoy
19 arrive; that's what you said?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So let me just get it clear. The chief of the centre, which you
22 admitted earlier, Vasic, is in Bratunac on the 12th, 13th, and 14th,
23 where the convoy leaves from. The deputy, the second from the centre, is
24 in Zvornik, in communication and happens to be at the Vidikovac Hotel
25 when the column arrives. So is your testimony that you in the MUP, you
1 and Vasic, were able to track the movement of the Muslim columns through
2 the wood, knowing what elevation they were at, knowing when they were in
3 Sandici, knowing when they were in Lolici, knowing when they were in
4 Kamenica, but you didn't know when your chief was in Bratunac that the
5 Muslims were coming on the 13th to Zvornik? You lost track of all those
7 A. What I said was indeed so. We did not have knowledge of the
8 column moving to Zvornik. I cannot assert anything now, but I suppose
9 that Chief Vasic was there, taking part in it, or that he may have had
10 better knowledge of the movements of the convoy. If he had known that it
11 was moving towards Zvornik, he would have probably informed me. I
12 personally was unaware of it and I can't say anything positively about
13 Chief Vasic. If he had known, he would definitely have informed me and
14 provided suggestions.
15 Q. Okay. Let me correct the transcript. Unfortunately, I said 13th
16 when it arrived. It's the 14th as we all know. That's not in dispute.
17 I don't want to go into it at length but in an interview, which
18 is 65 ter 22146, Tomo Kovac told us that when he saw you very late on the
19 night of the 13th - this is at e-court pages 103 and 104 - that you told
20 him that because there was not enough room in Bratunac, that the
21 prisoners are to be transferred to Zvornik barracks, to Zvornik Brigade
22 barracks. That's what Tomo Kovac said he learned from you before they
23 arrived. Is that right or not right?
24 A. It is true that I was in contact with Mr. Tomo, the minister or
25 deputy, whatever he was at the time, and I told him that the column had
1 reached Zvornik. I explained to him that we didn't know of their
2 intentions as to which direction to take. We told him that it stopped
3 but it was most likely to go on to the registered reception centre at
4 Batkovic near Bijeljina or that the column would turn to Kalesija and
5 Tuzla towards the demarcation line. However, events developed the way
6 they did --
7 Q. Let me stop you --
8 A. What is the basic thing in all that --
9 Q. Let me stop you. You may have missed the point of my question.
10 He said that before - and to use our terminology, I'm not talking about
11 the column of Muslim prisoners - the convoy of Muslim men in trucks and
12 buses from Bratunac, he said that you told him before it arrived on the
13 night of the 13th that the prisoners are to be transferred to Zvornik.
14 Now, is that right what he said, yes or no?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. All right --
17 A. Only later, after arrival I informed Minister Kovac of the
18 problem there. He provided certain suggestions. We thought they would
19 go to Batkovic, as I've said, or to the demarcation line. And perhaps an
20 hour or two later, after the conversation, he told me, "Keep the police
21 out of it. There's the military police. You should only secure the road
22 to allow for the traffic to go through."
23 Q. Yeah, and that leads nicely to my next question which is why it's
24 a bit surprising that you didn't know about this huge convoy of thousands
25 of Muslim prisoners coming to your town from Bratunac, very close by, the
1 day after you'd been in contact with Miroslav Deronjic, but there
2 were - and there's lots of evidence in this case - MUP on those buses
3 providing security.
4 Milorad Bircakovic at P00360 testified unambiguously that on each
5 bus there were four or five civilian police. He testified that he got on
6 a bus -- I should say Milorad Bircakovic worked for Drago Nikolic - his
7 security organ at the Zvornik Brigade - as his driver. He was ordered to
8 get on a bus. That bus with civilian police on it went directly to
10 KDZ407 was at Orahovac, completely separate testimony - that's
11 P00379 - he's talked about receiving the prisoners who were brought in
12 the school at Orahovac and how civilian police were escorting these
13 prisoners in and helped them put the prisoners into the gym and those
14 prisoners were then all killed.
15 So how is it that the MUP, which is all your centre, come from
16 Bratunac to Zvornik on the buses and then stay on the buses when they go
17 to detention sites very near execution sites, and you don't know anything
18 about it? That's a nice open-ended question for you.
19 A. I've already partially answered that question. When the column
20 reached Zvornik it was stopped for a while. We didn't know what it was
21 all about and what was going on. I asked for some answers from the
22 minister. I informed him and I tried contacting the then-corps command
23 Zivanovic, but communication was difficult to establish. After the
24 second call to Minister Kovac, he suggested the following, "It is up to
25 you to secure the road and I don't want to see any police meddling,"
1 which is what the police did. It secured that the convoy could keep
2 going and, indeed, it did towards Zvornik. At that point in time I
3 thought it was to go to Batkovic and Bijeljina or, perhaps, to turn to
4 Karakaj and Kalesija, but it didn't take place. The only information I
5 received from the police, from a police patrol, was that they turned
6 somewhere in Pilica and somewhere else, but that they weren't allowed to
7 go there. It was confirmed a number of times before and that's the truth
8 of it.
9 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. The execution site in Kozluk, on the 15th of
10 July, the Trial Chamber have been there and seen how it's just
11 straight -- a very short distance down a dirt road from the police
12 station in Kozluk. And KDZ496, P00387 - I apologise for going so fast -
13 testified at e-court pages 7 and 35 that there were men there in blue
14 uniforms, police uniforms, as the executions took place.
15 So again, I'm going to ask you -- well, first of all, when we met
16 in Belgrade you agreed with me that those men on those buses and trucks
17 did not go to Batkovic. They didn't go to Kladanj. They were virtually
18 all executed. That's true, isn't it? You need to speak your answer.
19 A. If you allow me, I'd like to clarify something. The preceding
20 days, perhaps even that day, the convoy was mostly moving via Vlasenica
21 to Kladanj. We know that this convoy went in the direction of Zvornik;
23 Q. Answer my question, please. Do you agree with me that all those
24 men on the convoy that you met at the Vidikovac Hotel didn't go to
25 Batkovic, didn't go to Kladanj, they were murdered?
1 A. I only saw that later on, after about an hour or two, that the
2 column stopped there, that they resumed, and then it -- I was informed
3 that they were getting off the road, that they weren't -- that they were
4 going to Kalesija, but I only had instructions that the police should
5 just ensure and follow the routes along which this column was moving.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 4 - I would like to
7 intervene in the transcript - the witness said: Only this one column --
8 convoy went to Zvornik.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. Third time. Do you agree with me that all those men on the
11 convoy, except for the odd survivor that escaped, that you met at the
12 Hotel Vidikovac did not go to Batkovic camp; they were all murdered? Or
13 do you think there's -- that's what you agreed with me in your interview.
14 Are you now saying something different?
15 A. Well, I've said the same thing. It was our opinion that they
16 would go to Batkovici; however, they didn't. But the knowledge about
17 them moving and going in another direction and their execution, that was
18 something that I only learned later on.
19 Q. Okay. When did you learn that they had been executed, all these
21 A. Well, perhaps on the following day or the following days.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not sure if we're at break time, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break. I think it's evident we cannot
24 finish the next witness's evidence today. Is there any specific reason
25 that we have to conclude his evidence today, Mr. Robinson, i.e., whether
1 we cannot continue his evidence on Monday?
2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We can continue his evidence
3 on Monday. The problem -- he's been here since last Thursday because his
4 testimony was delayed at the request of the Prosecution, so he's been
5 here for a very long time, but as I understand it he can stay and, if
6 that's necessary, we can do it.
7 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a regular break for 45 minutes and see
8 how it evolves.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: I would just like to thank the Defence for
10 accommodating us on that request regarding the next witness's testimony.
11 JUDGE KWON: We'll break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.20.
12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.
14 JUDGE KWON: My apologies for the delay. The Chamber had some
16 Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Could I have 24607 up again, please, page 19 in both languages.
19 All right. This is just to orient us. This is a page we were
20 looking at before from 13 July.
21 Could we now go to the next page, 20 in each, please. All right.
22 Q. Now, sir, here in your handwriting we have on the top left
23 "raid." Below that "4th Battalion." "741-016," "Tomo," and then an S or
24 an 8 written under his name. Phone number 592-029 and "Popovic."
25 Now, very quickly, you recall when we met that you told us this
1 was, the Tomo and the phone number, that was Tomo Savic in Milici.
2 A. I suppose so.
3 Q. Okay. Now, our position is this is 14 July 1995, because we've
4 just moved on from pages which were 13 July, 14 July 1995 is the day of
5 the executions of over a thousand men in Orahovac. Vujadin Popovic,
6 Drina Corps security, is involved in those executions at Orahovac. The
7 number 592-029 is the phone number of a little house right across the
8 street from the Grbavci school which was used by the VRS. That the
9 4th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade carried out executions in Orahovac
10 that day and 4th -- and Orahovac is the area of the 4th Battalion.
11 Now, when we spoke in Belgrade - and that's on page 45 to 46 of
12 your interview - you told us that this could have been Vujadin Popovic
13 but you didn't remember. You didn't know why you'd written down
14 4th Battalion and you didn't know why you'd written down that phone
16 Do you stand by that or do you now remember why you have these
17 entries in your book?
18 A. I really don't remember and I couldn't comment on that. As I
19 said, this is a note where something is recorded so that later one
20 could -- but really, from this point in time, I do not remember what were
21 the reasons for me to record this here.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I would tender this notebook. The
24 portion we have in e-court is a total of 37 pages in English and Serbian
25 original, either the entire thing because I think it's useful or, at a
1 minimum, pages 9 to 21 which are the pages that I've gone -- or page 20,
2 excuse me, are the pages I've gone over with the witness.
3 JUDGE KWON: Unless indicated by -- otherwise indicated by the
4 Defence, I prefer to admit pages 9 to 21.
5 Mr. Robinson.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, that's okay. We're going to
7 probably talk about an entry on another page, but we could add it at that
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 What's the time-frame of those pages, Mr. Nicholls, pages 9 to
12 MR. NICHOLLS: 11 to 14 July 1995.
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
14 We'll admit those pages and add, if necessary, later on.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. And I don't know if you want to
16 just -- strike that.
17 JUDGE KWON: We give the number for this.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6190, Your Honours.
19 MR. NICHOLLS:
20 Q. All right, sir.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 35025, please.
22 And while it's coming up I will say this is a tactical
23 intercept -- sorry, pages -- page 4 of the English and 12 of the Serbian.
24 JUDGE KWON: We'll not broadcast.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think we can broadcast this, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE KWON: Could you check? I was told that it is under seal.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I --
4 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload it so that I can see it.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: This might be a situation, Your Honour, where if
6 we give it a different number that it can be broadcast without problems.
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: That on the left is not the right document.
9 Page 12 of the B/C/S, please. Okay. Thank you.
10 Q. Now, sir, this is an intercept and on the first page of the
11 English -- sorry, page 4 of the English, we're only on page 1. That's
12 right. Page 4 of the English we can see that this is talking about
13 Friday, 14 July 1995. If we could skip to the next page of the English
14 we could stay on the same page of the Serbian.
15 Now, the first part I want to ask you about, sir, in this
16 intercept is we've already established that you were Omega 2, that was
17 your call-sign in July 1995. If you look down just at the sentence that
18 begins "1930" about a quarter of the way down the page probably -- oh,
19 no, sorry, sorry, I'm looking at the English. It's at the bottom of the
20 page of yours, bottom quarter. It says:
21 "1930 they organised and linked ambushes (Omega 02, Vuk)."
22 Now, that's you talking to somebody named Vuk, who I don't know
23 who that is, just about the movement of the armed Muslim soldiers, the
24 column; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. If we look up a bit it says:
2 "Omega 21 is in Pilica."
3 That means Danilo Zoljic is in Pilica; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then if we look down we see:
6 "Celik requested from Omega," which we saw was the Zvornik MUP
7 communications centre, "to send security for Orahovac."
8 Now, we already went through how buses that arrived from Bratunac
9 on the 14th went to Orahovac, how there were MUP soldiers -- MUP
10 policemen who went on those buses to Orahovac. We saw the entry in your
11 notebook for 14 of July which had the phone number from Orahovac and
12 Popovic. And here we see that somebody requested the MUP to send
13 security for Orahovac.
14 Does that refresh your memory about why you made these entries in
15 your notebook that day?
16 A. The handwriting here is not mine, so this is not my notebook. I
17 cannot remember who could have been using my notepad.
18 Q. This is not your notebook, sir. This is an intercept from the
19 Muslim side of intercepted conversations on the tactical lower ground
20 level. But if it doesn't help you remember, it doesn't help you
21 remember, but this is not your notebook. Don't worry.
22 JUDGE KWON: Could you ask the witness again whether he had such
23 a conversation at 1930.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah.
25 Q. Just again, you confirmed that at 1930 you had a conversation
1 just about the armed Muslim soldiers who were threatening Zvornik, that
2 that would be you.
3 A. Yes, Your Honours, I -- when preparing for this part of my
4 testimony in the Defence case I focused on 1992 in this case, so I didn't
5 really study these transcripts a lot, and it often happens, as now, that
6 I don't remember all the details. And I sincerely apologise, I will do
7 my best to provide as accurate information as possible, but I cannot
8 remember all the details.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that document, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE KWON: This page?
12 MR. NICHOLLS: This page, yeah.
13 MR. ROBINSON: It's already admitted according to my --
14 JUDGE KWON: No.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: It was MFI'd --
16 JUDGE KWON: No, no -- I think --
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Or not admitted actually --
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it was not admitted at the time.
19 MR. ROBINSON: And I take it it may be for the same reason it
20 shouldn't be admitted now if I'm thinking that this was not something
21 that was testified to by one of the intercept operators because that --
22 MR. NICHOLLS: No --
23 MR. ROBINSON: -- I don't know whether or not this particular
24 intercept has been authenticated.
25 JUDGE KWON: But this witness confirmed what he said about it.
1 MR. ROBINSON: That one line.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Well --
3 JUDGE KWON: Omega --
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I think that's enough, Your Honours. The reason
5 it was not admitted previously in our bar table is that it was
6 unfortunately, through our error, one of the ones where we didn't
7 reference transcript pages and the 94 -- the prior admissions, it was
8 previously admitted in Popovic, Tolimir, and I can't remember, either
9 Krstic or Blagojevic. And we cited those prior admissions but we didn't
10 cite them enough and Your Honours denied it on that basis. But as you
11 said, it has now been authenticated.
12 JUDGE KWON: I think we -- it's fair enough to admit at least
13 from "Omega 21" till "Orahovac."
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: That's all you put to the witness .
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, the only other thing is the date is on the
17 top which is important.
18 JUDGE KWON: Together with the date.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Shall we give the number now.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6191, Your Honours.
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. Okay. 1992, you have -- your statement concerns that. You just
24 said that's what you prepared for, and I want to talk to you about
25 mosques being blown up in Vlasenica when you were there in August 1992 in
1 the MUP.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go into private session, please.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
24 Q. And to your knowledge, nobody was ever prosecuted and punished
25 for this crime, blowing up the mosque; right?
1 A. We instructed our service on the following day to conduct the
2 on-site investigation; however, we submitted the report to the
3 prosecutor's office. I don't know what happened with that later because
4 those institutions were still not fully operational. And as none of us
5 later asked for any additions nor was our report dismissed by any
6 instance, and simultaneously the army was also allowed to conduct an
7 investigation, this was what we carried out. We submitted our report
8 about the on-site investigation to the prosecutor's office and that was
10 Q. Yeah, and so the answer then would be yes: To your knowledge,
11 nobody was ever prosecuted and punished for this crime to your knowledge?
12 A. No one has been prosecuted to this day; however, as I say, we
13 submitted the report and the same measures, that is to say, the
14 investigation could have been conducted by the crime police of the Army
15 of Republika Srpska because there was an agreement that in case of
16 criminal offences committed by members of the army should be prosecuted
17 by the military organs. In such a case, if that happened, we would then
18 contribute by forwarding the information we had to the relevant military
20 Q. Okay. Again, last time. I'm not asking you about the process,
21 just to your knowledge, you don't know that anybody was ever actually
22 punished for this crime, do you? That's a yes or no.
23 A. As far as I knew, I do not have information that anyone was
25 Q. Thank you. In your statement at paragraph 15 you talk about both
1 sides, meaning Muslims and Serbs, arming and you talked about Serbs
2 acquiring most of their weapons legally by being mobilised into the TO.
3 Let's see if we can make this short.
4 The SDS illegally armed Serb civilians, correct, in Vlasenica?
5 A. Perhaps it happened to a smaller extent because all members of
6 armed forces according to the former law were assigned to specific posts
7 and it was their duty to do that. Whoever responded to the lawful
8 mobilisation could be issued by a soldier's equipment, including weapons.
9 And I think that the SDS did not have any special need to be involved in
10 illegal procurement of weapons because it was mostly the Serbs who
11 responded to call-ups for mobilisation, that is to say, they reported
12 themselves to the JNA and the TO. And obviously the Muslims refused this
13 which can be found in a series of documents --
14 Q. Okay --
15 A. -- that they refused to respond to the mobilisation, but they did
16 obtain illegal weapons.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Let's go into private session, please.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 35058 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. While it's coming up, you'll remember this document. It's your
10 document, 3rd of August, 1992, to Romanija Birac CSB Sarajevo. And it
11 discusses crimes dealt with by your police station. And it states:
12 "In the period from 1st of April, 1992, to 30th of July, 1992" --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters. Thank
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. "-- the Vlasenica public security station dealt with the
17 following activities with regard to crime prevention," illegal possession
18 of weapons, 108 cases; right?
19 A. Not boxes or cases, but cases in the sense of incidents.
20 Q. Correct. That's what I meant, 108 incidents, yeah. Okay.
21 Now, P3216 is the crime register for your police station for
22 1992. I don't want to spend the time to bring it up, but do you recall
23 that you previously had a chance to go through this crime register and
24 you confirmed that through the end of July, the SJB processed 108 illegal
25 weapons cases and there was not a single one of them where the person
1 prosecuted was of Serb ethnicity, that it was only Muslims who were
2 prosecuted for illegal possession of weapons; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. And going through that record, you also didn't find a
5 single case of a crime committed by one of your police officers against a
6 Muslim or Croat and it would have been there if it had been reported;
8 A. The report says: Murder, five cases. I think these were, though
9 I can't remember exactly now, acts done against life and limb of certain
10 persons. Now I don't know, probably some of the cases that were under
11 procedure were also those where the perpetrators were Bosniaks by
13 Q. Correct.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session very briefly?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
12 MR. NICHOLLS:
13 Q. Now, in paragraphs 23 to 26 of your statement you discuss the
14 decision of 19 April 1992 of the Crisis Staff to disarm the police. And
15 you say at paragraph 23 --
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Let's bring that up. It's P06138.
17 Q. Go ahead and look at your statement if you want to. You say in
18 paragraph 23:
19 "The Crisis Staff adopted this decision because the citizens no
20 longer trusted the joint police force since it could not guarantee
22 At paragraph 24 you said:
23 "After the decision to disarm the police was adopted, all SJB
24 employees who had long-barrelled weapons were told ..." I'll skip a bit
25 "... to bring the weapons to the station."
1 And you also claim in paragraph 26:
2 "It is not true that this was an attempt to get rid of the
3 Muslims in the police and change the ethnic make-up of the police."
4 Do you stand by that, paragraph 26, "this was not an attempt to
5 change the ethnic make-up of the police"?
6 A. Yes, I stand by it. If I may, I'd like to clarify shortly.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given that a decision had been made
9 on the division of the municipality into the Muslim municipality of
10 Vlasenica, the Serb municipality of Vlasenica, and Milici municipality,
11 the policemen from the Milici municipal part went to Milici itself. And
12 by protocol which was decided on at the Assembly concerning the division
13 of the municipality also contained the following, it was stated that all
14 of the three municipalities should begin with establishing their own
15 institutions. In that case, Milici municipality started establishing
16 their own institutions and the Serb municipality did the same later on
17 when it was proclaimed. However, the Muslim side did not begin
18 establishing institutions of their own for reasons that were known to
19 them. It was a strategy of theirs because I could find in certain
20 documents that Mr. Redzic stated he had signed it because he had received
21 instructions from the SDA and Alija Izetbegovic to sign and to obstruct
22 the process as long as possible in order to have as many people move out
23 as possible. So the decision was to establish a police station which
24 could be operational. Basically, at that point in time it did not exist.
25 It did exist, but it was divided in terms of personnel. Some went to
1 Milici, some Muslims had left even before the 21st of April because they
2 left Vlasenica, and a very small number remained in the station. The
3 reason for this decision so was to set up a new principle in order to
4 establish a functioning police station.
5 Q. Now. --
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go into private session briefly?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 35064 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm nearly done, Your Honours. I think I'm right
23 at my time about. I'm going to have to speed up a bit.
24 Q. The special purpose unit you discuss in your statement at
25 paragraphs 31 to 38 was under the command of Miroslav Kraljevic and
1 you've previously said that it comprised 20 to 25 men. Do you remember
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And Elvis Djuric was the deputy; right? It's in your
5 statement at paragraph 33?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Let's see if we can make this quick. That special unit
8 was paid by the MUP and you actually signed the payrolls; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you also talk about in your statement how from day one there
11 were complaints with this unit. Paragraph 34 you talk about how this
12 unit of 20 to 25 men mistreated Muslims. You also talked about how this
13 unit made Muslims "disappear" without a trace. Paragraph 35 of your
15 "Every day I informed the Crisis Staff and the municipal
16 leadership about the problems with this unit, but we had no solution.
17 Armed fighting between the Serbs and the Muslims started on the ground,
18 people were getting killed, and so we had no time to control this unit.
19 Reports started coming in to the effect that on their own initiative they
20 had started to take away Muslims from their homes and that these people
21 then disappeared without a trace."
22 Now this --
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go in private session, Your Honours?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 35067 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. That's paragraph 38 of your statement what we were just talking
7 about where you say:
8 Within a very short period you received an order, 27 July 1992.
9 Sorry, based on an order of 27 July 1992, and you said:
10 "As soon as we received this order, we disbanded the unit," the
11 special unit run by Kraljevic.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Now I'd like to look attendant 65 ter 18358.
13 Q. This was not included in your statement although it relates to
14 the documents about disbanding the unit and paramilitaries in your
15 statement. Take a look at it. First of all, that's your signature on
16 the bottom; right? Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. This is a 10th of August, 1992, RE, topic, disbanding of the
19 special unit formed during the war in the SJB. And you reference the
20 28 July and 27 July decisions to disband paramilitaries. And you state
21 in your report up the chain:
22 "Soon after the war started in the area of Vlasenica municipality
23 (21 April 1992), a special purpose platoon was formed in the Vlasenica
24 SJB in order to realise goals, and on the basis of agreement and
25 suggestions of the Birac SAO government ..."
1 And then you say in the next paragraph:
2 "In order to carry out the order by the Minister of Interior of
3 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina ... 27 July ... this unit
4 has been transformed in such a way that it became part of a reserve
5 contingent, part was transferred into the military police of the main
6 command of Crna Rijeka ..." which means military police of the
7 Main Staff; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. "And part was given to the Serbian army. "This unit ... no
10 longer exists ..."
11 So, first of all, August 1992 is when we talked earlier about the
12 mosque being blown up and we confirmed that by that time there was only a
13 handful of Muslims left in Vlasenica. So once the unit that made Muslims
14 disappear without a trace had made all of the Muslims disappear without a
15 trace except for a handful and the supreme commander's forces blew up the
16 mosque, at that point you disbanded this unit; correct?
17 A. If one was to go by dates, that is so. However, as of the moment
18 this platoon was attached to the TO, the Intervention Platoon, that is,
19 of the TO to the police station, we kept asking constantly that the unit
20 be disbanded, removed, or dealt with in another way. Ultimately, none of
21 their members had the conditions to be employed by the Ministry of the
22 Interior and to work in the police because they had not been trained to
23 do so. It was for those reasons that we kept intervening and the
24 sequence of events was such that the minister indeed ordered that the
25 unit be disbanded. We undertook that immediately so that the station
1 could operate in keeping with the Law on Internal Affairs.
2 Q. Right --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, in your question did you say that the
4 supreme commander's forces blew up the mosque?
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: What did you mean by "supreme commander"?
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Mr. Karadzic, VRS, blew up the mosque, his forces.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. Exactly, that's my point, sir. As soon as you got the order to
11 disband this unit, it was disbanded; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Before that, you said in your statement, you didn't have time.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I tender this document, please?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6192, Your Honours.
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. All right, 65 ter 24719 is the last topic, sir.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I'm sorry this does not have a
20 translation so we'll -- may have to mark it but there's very little that
21 needs to be translated. It just didn't have time -- there is a
22 translation. I thought there wasn't.
23 Q. While it's coming up, just to save time, this is a list of
24 SJB Vlasenica reserve militia -- reserve police force, I should say,
25 sorry, at the Vlasenica SJB security station. If you look at persons
1 listed under number 76 and number 77, it's Miroslav Kraljevic and
2 Elvis Djuric, commander and deputy commander of the special unit; right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. They stayed in the MUP; right?
5 A. Miroslav Kraljevic was seriously wounded sometime in August. He
6 was then hospitalised in the VMA. For that reason, he couldn't be
7 deployed anywhere and yet he had to exercise some of his rights such as
8 salary to the extent possible. That's why he was kept on the list. As
9 for Elvis Djuric, he was sent alongside the group of policemen who had
10 the conditions in terms of education to attend training, to attend a
11 course to become regular policemen.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender this document, please?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6193.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: I think it's clear we will not hear the evidence of
17 the next witness.
18 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue with your re-examination.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] I'll start with what is the newest thing in our
22 recollection. A moment ago, on page 99, you were quoted that part of the
23 unit was given to the army. Which part was given to the army and which
24 part was treated in a different way?
25 A. A part of that unit was given to the army. It was such men who
1 had no conditions or interest to apply to attend a policeman course.
2 They were then given to the army and sent to provide security at
3 Crna Rijeka as far as I know. So some of them were completely dealt with
4 by having then gone to the army, whereas others went to attend a
5 policeman course.
6 Q. Thank you. On page 95 you were asked about the composition of
7 the station. You have mentioned it before as well as in your statement
8 that the joint police was no longer trusted. Can you tell us briefly
9 what was the reason for that --
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not quote anything,
12 Your Excellency.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not sure, Your Honour. I think it's okay if
15 we just continue.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I'm of the same opinion.
17 Let's continue.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can you tell us briefly why the joint police was no longer
21 A. One of the reasons was because in the previous period, let's say
22 in April, part of the Muslim policemen headed by their commander, the
23 official commander, Fadil Turkovic, took full part in the activities
24 surrounding the procurement of weapons and the police force became
25 divided. Consequently, the patrols could no longer function, or rather,
1 one could not create such a shift which could guarantee security during
2 the working hours. One could not set up a multi-ethnic police patrol
3 that would be able to guarantee it. Given the influence of commander
4 Fadil, the police force became divided. Before the 21st of April we
5 still managed to function in keeping with the Law on the Organisation of
6 Internal Affairs of the former B&H.
7 Q. Thank you. Since in the Muslim part of the municipality they did
8 not establish a police station, who was in charge of police affairs in
9 that rather large part of Vlasenica?
10 A. They had an active reserve force before the 21st of April.
11 Q. No, sorry, the part that was not under control of the Serb
12 forces, such as Kasaba and Cerska, who policed those areas?
13 A. There were Muslim policemen. Some of them had left the station
14 and joined the reserve police station in Kasaba. In any case, Muslims
15 for the most part.
16 Q. What was the ethnic make-up of the police in the Muslim-held
18 A. They were all Muslim. They had an ethnically pure force.
19 Q. Thank you. At page 89, which is Exhibit P3216, there is
20 reference to five murders. Are you saying that in the four months of war
21 there were five murders?
22 A. I tried to comment that we processed the cases of five murders,
23 although I'm not familiar with the structure of the crimes. Although it
24 was a time of war, the police undertook full treatment, full
25 investigation on site and records as well.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the document, P3216,
3 page 10 in English and 12 in Serbian. English is enough. Could we just
4 zoom in, please.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Here we can see the perpetrators. Could you indicate the ones
7 that you actually prosecuted? And we have a breakdown here according to
8 ethnic membership. For instance, under numbers 12 and 13, who are those
10 A. Tesic Roksandic, and under 13 we see Zoran Surkovic.
11 Q. What ethnicity are they?
12 A. They're Serbian.
13 Q. Thank you. On page 16, lines 42 and 45 - so page 16 of the
14 English, please - what ethnicity are the people under 42 and 45?
15 A. Stanimir Vidovic is a Serb, and 45, Goran Viskovic, also a Serb.
16 Q. Thank you. On page 21 - 21, please - would you take a look at
17 59, 60, and 61, those numbers. Are there any Serbs under 59?
18 A. Yes. Zoran Bijelic.
19 Q. Under 6; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. What about 60 and 61?
22 A. Under 61 we see Mirko Vojvodic and 61 --
23 Q. Mladen, son of Sretan; right?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Are they --
1 A. Serbs.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 24 in English, please.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Would you just take a look at page 64 and 71, what ethnicity are
6 A. Sasa Masic, Dragan Dimitrovic, they are Serb. And what other
7 number did you say?
8 Q. 71.
9 A. Under 71 we see Janko Pajic, also a Serb.
10 Q. There are more but I don't want to waste any more time --
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, just to be clear, I'm a little bit
12 late but this doesn't really arise out of the cross because the cross
13 point was - and he's found one - but that only Muslims were prosecuted
14 for weapons, illegal weapons possession, that's what I took him to, not
15 that no Serbs were ever prosecuted. The ones he's shown here, one of the
16 murders was a Serb killing a Serb, others are for theft. He hasn't put
17 it to the witness what these cases are about. So just to be clear, my
18 suggestion was never that no Serbs were prosecuted for anything.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Since you said that you would be moving, let's continue.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Is it correct what has been said here, that these Serbs were
23 prosecuted for murders of Serbs and not Muslims?
24 A. Well, for the most part they were prosecuted. I can't recall all
25 the crimes, but there were cases where in the main we prosecuted for the
1 murders of Serbs, but for others we couldn't really document it. But
2 this -- it depends on the period of time.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, move on to another topic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. On page 88 you were -- it was suggested to you that you had said
7 that the Serb side, or rather, the SDS armed people together with the JNA
8 and you explained that that was the result of mobilisation. Now, could
9 you tell us what the position of the SD -- of the Serbian Democratic
10 Party was on the issue of response to call-ups?
11 A. Well, the Serbian Democratic Party supported the -- Yugoslavia
12 and that means that it also was in favour or supported the respect for
13 all the laws that were in place, which means that the people should
14 respond to mobilisation. Now, it was a legal obligation of every citizen
15 to respond to a mobilisation call-up under the existing laws then.
16 Q. Thank you. But despite the legal obligations, not all parties
17 took the same position; correct?
18 A. Well, that's correct. It was even proved that the SDA had,
19 already for a year, from sometime in mid-1991, instructed people not to
20 send their young soldiers to the army and not to respond to the
21 mobilisation. We have this case where this Mr. Izet Redzic, when the
22 mobilisation was proclaimed, when he came as an official person, he and
23 the then-deputy Kavazbasic, they went to Banja Luka. They collected and
24 took all the -- or withdrew -- took all the Muslim men who had been
25 mobilised into that unit and took them out. So they created a situation,
1 while only the Serbs remained, so that later they could point this out
2 that someone had actually made this army be all Serb, but that's not
3 true. This was actually their strategy to project that kind of
4 impression --
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I'll hear from you, although I know what --
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Then I'll just --
7 JUDGE KWON: -- what the point is --
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I was just saying that the first question arguably
9 arose from the cross; the second didn't when it went into the broader
10 issue of different ethnicities' views of mobilisation in general.
11 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it certainly does arise from
13 that and you can see that from the page that I cited.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now, you said that a criminal report was submitted because of the
16 blowing up of the mosque. Was the criminal report drafted for an unknown
17 accused or for known perpetrators?
18 A. Well, no, no --
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter requests that the witness
20 repeat his answer.
21 JUDGE KWON: Interpreters couldn't hear your answer, Mr. Djuric.
22 Could you repeat it.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the case of the mosque there was
24 a report submitted to the Prosecutor's office, a case that -- a complaint
25 that was submitted against unknown perpetrators.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Did you know who the perpetrators were?
3 A. No. Well, had we known, we would not do this, we would not
4 submit a report. We would actually submit a classic criminal report,
5 criminal complaint.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, did you know of any permission granted by any
7 kind of organ or authorities to allow this kind of behaviour or conduct?
8 A. No, I am not aware of any orders that such activities should be
9 carried out.
10 Q. The question did not reflect that I asked whether the central
11 organs or me as the commander ever issued an order that would allow such
12 conduct. This did not make it into the transcript when my question was
14 A. Well, generally observing what your positions were, you could
15 never infer such a conclusion and especially or, more specifically, you
16 never dealt with such specifics or such orders. You never issued such
17 orders or supported it. That is my opinion. That's my view.
18 Q. Thank you. When you said that the army could also conduct
19 investigations, would they do that if a commander issued an order to that
20 effect or if he knew who had ordered it?
21 A. Most probably, yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now briefly take a look at
24 P6190, the last page. Pages 19 or 20. This is not the last page. I'm
25 referring to the part that was admitted into evidence.
1 JUDGE KWON: Page 21.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the previous page. I
3 believe that 19 and 20 were admitted into evidence.
4 JUDGE KWON: Is this the page?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it is.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you tell us what the assault group that is mentioned at the
8 bottom of the page, the Planinci or the mount, what kind of forces is
9 this a reference to?
10 A. This was a reference to the column that was moving from
11 Srebrenica and the information we had was that they crossed the
12 Konjevic Polje communication and were headed for Crni Vrh, which is above
13 Zvornik towards Tuzla, and that they were getting closer to the defence
15 Q. Are you referring to Muslim forces?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please can we have page 2, now.
18 Page 22, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Can you help us and tell us what is the meaning of these words
21 "1.000 Batkovici," and this is an entry for the 15th of July and then
22 below that it says "Miletic"?
23 A. I cannot comment on this. I don't remember. But as -- since
24 they're mentioning Batkovici here, this probably means that perhaps some
25 1.000 people were moving towards Batkovici.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see the eight pages
3 further from this spot. I believe the end of the ERN is 90. And before
4 that could we just admit this into evidence, this one page?
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll add this page.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you tell us what the meaning of these words is "Slapovici,"
9 and then the third line where it says the safety deposit box or the safe
10 was not opened, what is this a reference to? What is "Slapovici"? What
11 are we talking about here? And then it goes on: Tendency towards
12 looting about 400 buildings and then vault has not been opened?
13 A. I cannot really remember this, but this was probably up there
14 probably towards Srebrenica someplace. I don't really know.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this,
18 JUDGE KWON: For what purpose?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, for the purpose of the
20 12 kilos of gold that somehow appeared, they were found with the
21 perpetrators, whereas here we see that it says that the vault had not
22 been opened.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. What page is this?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was discussed in Ademovic, the
25 gold. This is 973, that is -- or, rather, 930 is the ERN number. It
1 ends in 930.
2 JUDGE KWON: What's the e-court page number?
3 Say it to the transcript.
4 THE REGISTRAR: E-court page 30, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: 3-0?
6 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, what date is it?
8 MR. NICHOLLS: It should be 27th or --
9 JUDGE KWON: After 27th --
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah, sometime after 27 July. I mean, I'll note
11 that the witness had no idea what this referred to, he says. But
12 again -- I mean, I think we either admit the whole thing or -- which is
13 not a -- I think it's not a huge document or piecemeal like this, but
14 under your -- sorry, I'm a little tired. Under your Chamber's prior
15 ruling you would not admit this page, but I don't really have any problem
16 with any page of this document being admitted. I think it's useful.
17 JUDGE KWON: Given that he confirmed his handwriting, although he
18 didn't remember what it is about, there's no harm in admitting this page.
19 We'll do this. We'll add this to the exhibit, page 30. Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You were asked and there was a suggestion in that question that
23 you had seen a couple of thousand of people on those buses. Could you
24 tell us how many buses did you see from Vidikovac passing by there at
25 that point in time?
1 A. Well, this column was rather long; however, I couldn't count the
2 buses at that very point -- at that very moment. But later on I learned
3 from some conversations that I had that there were some 50 to 60 buses,
4 mostly buses.
5 Q. Well, how big were these buses and how many people could they
6 take on average?
7 A. Well, on average it would be about -- they could bus about
8 45 people on them.
9 Q. Very well. Thank you. On page 62 it was also mentioned that
10 there were Muslim civilians who had been killed in the village. Now,
11 were these civilians armed or was there shooting on both sides? And this
12 was in Drum.
13 A. Well, I didn't take part in that operation but I heard about it.
14 There was an action underway there and probably there was some kind of
15 provocation which then triggered this shooting, but I cannot claim with
16 certainty whether these civilians were armed or not. But in any case,
17 this did happen.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you need?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe about five minutes.
20 JUDGE KWON: If you could conclude as soon as possible. Please
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You were asked today, or rather, it was put to you, you were
25 asked whether there was a threat to Zvornik from these forces that were
1 in that area. Was this threat only a threat against Zvornik and how long
2 did this threat to Zvornik from Muslim forces that were around in the
3 woods, how long did it go on for?
4 A. Well, in the area above Zvornik, towards Udrc, we had information
5 that there were about some 3.000 to 4.000 men in the column. Later on we
6 established that over 80 per cent of them were, in fact, soldiers who
7 had -- who -- who had changed clothes. But this original -- this initial
8 information that there was some 3.000 to 4.000 men, that wasn't correct.
9 There were far many more than that.
10 Q. But can you tell us whether this threat to Zvornik was
11 long-lasting? How long did it go on for?
12 A. Well, it was a threat to Zvornik until the moment when the
13 commander, Colonel Pandurevic, ordered that an opening be made towards
14 Tuzla. But then there was still a threat because of all these groups
15 that were around there in that area and it was a threat to them.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1D1220.
18 This document has been translated. It is actually 1D21220.
19 The date is the 1st of August and it was sent to your station
20 from Milici.
21 1D21220. That's not it.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. While waiting for it, can you tell us when was this law adopted,
24 when the state security was taken out of MUP and when the names were
1 A. I can't recall exactly. I think it was in 1992, as of, say,
2 April on. I can't be precise. I do know that they separated the public
3 security and the state security.
4 Q. Thank you. On the 1st of August, 1995, Tomislav Savkic asked --
5 well, you can see it there. He says several thousand soldiers made a
6 break through along that axis and there are another 1500 left. He also
7 says that Milici is under threat. It was already the 1st of August.
8 What can you tell us about that?
9 A. As I've said already, the column which went through left behind
10 sizeable groups which moved about the territory of Birac region between
11 Srebrenica and Tuzla. There was a danger for the inhabitants and
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: It doesn't really arise much from the cross, but
17 no objection.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That's why I asked you.
19 We'll admit this.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3103, Your Honours.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It does arise. It was mentioned
22 that there was a threat to Zvornik. In any case, the last question,
23 since I don't want to take up anyone else's time anymore.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Djuric, have you ever seen a written report or any kind of
1 written communication reporting on the killing of Srebrenica prisoners?
2 A. No, I have never seen that report directly. I only received some
3 information later on through these statements, testimonies, and whatnot.
4 Q. Thank you. After July 1995 have you ever had occasion to meet,
5 the two of us?
6 A. I don't think so.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djuric. I have no further questions.
8 A. Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I don't -- haven't asked to do this
11 ever before, but there was a question put to the witness about what the
12 "1.000 Batkovic" meant in his handwritten notebook, and he said he
13 couldn't remember exactly what it meant. He discussed this in his
14 interview with me in June 2010, gave a little bit more. I don't know
15 if -- I think it might be useful to refresh his recollection on what he
16 said then and just see if it helps him remember or not, but I realise
17 that it's -- my part is done.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you proceed.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
21 Could we have that up again, it's 24 -- P6190, page 20 in both
22 languages -- sorry, sorry, 22.
23 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
24 Q. This will come up in a minute, sir. Here is what you said when
25 we asked you about this in your interview.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: This is at page 48 for my friends.
2 Q. [As read] "A thousand Batkovic, Bratunac, I don't know what it
3 was. Some information, it is mentioned here Miletic where it was the
4 fact that I mentioned earlier that I was convinced they are going to
5 Bratunac, something like that.
6 "Q. What's the word after 'Bratunac'? 'No'?
7 "Batkovic. No. I either asked, somebody told me, or I passed
8 this information. I was still convinced that they were going to
10 "Q. Yeah, but then you wrote 'no' because you found out they
13 "Most probably somebody said no, that they are not.
14 "You don't remember who told you?
15 "No, no, it says here 'Miletic' but it's referred to as Miletic.
16 I don't think I communicated with him."
17 So does that at all help you remember, would be my question?
18 A. It is all in the area of simply noting down events. It is
19 difficult to establish a link from this point in time.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your evidence,
21 Mr. Djuric. Thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you
22 are free to go.
23 Mr. Robinson, I wanted to --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: -- make an observation with respect to your comment
1 about usage of bar table motion. I will do that first thing on Monday
3 The hearing is adjourned -- I'm sorry, I didn't see you. You
4 were hiding. Yes, Mr. Tieger.
5 MR. TIEGER: I'll keep that in mind, Mr. President, by way of
6 this location.
7 Just by way of the reference I made earlier to Court's earlier
8 decisions about statements, I think the Court can turn to September 27,
9 2011, the transcript pages 11819 -- excuse me.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 MR. TIEGER: I think that was 19496 and lines 13 through 24, I
12 believe, and I think that was 27 September 2011. It was one I was able
13 to find quickly.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 I thank the staff, interpreters and reporters, for their
16 indulgence. Hearing is adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.04 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of
19 March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.