Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35204

 1                           Tuesday, 12 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Would the witness make the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Ceklic.  Please be seated and make

11     yourself comfortable.

12                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO CEKLIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

16     Your Excellencies.  Good morning everybody.

17                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ceklic.

19        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

20        Q.   I must congratulate you.  You are the first and the second in a

21     series of 100 witnesses.  You're number 101.

22             I must ask you and remind myself, too, that we should speak

23     slowly and pause between question and answer so that everything can be

24     recorded.

25             Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

Page 35205

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D7899.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Can you see the statement in front of you now?

 6        A.   I can.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed the statement?

 8        A.   Yes, I read and signed it.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Please show us the last page with the signature.  Is

10     this your signature?

11        A.   Mr. President, yes, this is my signature.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said

13     to the Defence team, or does anything need to be changed?

14        A.   As far as I remember, the statement was faithfully rendered and

15     there is no need to change anything.

16        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you the same questions today, would

17     your answers be essentially the same?

18        A.   Yes.  The essence would not change at all.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Under Rule 92 ter, I seek to

21     tender the statement.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're offering three

23     associated exhibits listed in our 92 ter notice, and we would ask that

24     for each of them they be added to our Rule 65 ter list as we didn't have

25     them at the time that list was filed.

Page 35206

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, any objections?

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No, no objections,

 3     just an observation.  Document 1D14009, referenced at paragraph 37, has

 4     been admitted.  It's D1193.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, we'll receive the statement as well

 6     as the remaining two associated exhibits.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The 92 ter statement 1D7899

 8     will be D3112, and the other two associated exhibits will be D3113 and

 9     D3114 respectively.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read the

12     summary of Mr. Momcilo Ceklic's statement in English.

13             [In English] Momcilo Ceklic was born on the 23rd of September,

14     1941, in Obrinje village, Kalinovik municipality.  He is a lawyer by

15     profession and currently resides in east Novo Sarajevo.  He was the

16     secretary of the Ilidza Municipal Assembly and a member of the Crisis

17     Staff.

18             Following the establishment of the HDZ and SDA municipal parties

19     in 1990, the SDS Municipal Board was formed on 7th of September, 1990.

20     After the multi-party elections in November 1990, Mr. Momcilo Ceklic

21     observed relations between the parties deteriorated as interethnic

22     tensions continued to mount in the area.

23             In one instance in May 1991, the taxi drivers of Sarajevo drove

24     throughout Serbian areas of Ilidza with Muslim markings, making noise and

25     firing shots.  It was a public secret that the Muslims were preparing for

Page 35207

 1     war.  Momcilo Ceklic himself witnessed between 150 to 200 Muslims

 2     undergoing training at this time.  The Ilidza settlement of

 3     Sokolovic Kolonija was a stronghold of the SDA and its paramilitary

 4     formations.

 5             On January the 2nd, 1992, the Ilidza SDS Municipal Board formed a

 6     Crisis Staff, and on the following day, the SDS proclaimed the Serbian

 7     Ilidza municipality, which was intended for preventive and political

 8     activities.  The Crisis Staff did not hold a sessions -- session until

 9     early April, despite the difficulty security situation.

10             In the following period, persecution and arrests of Serbs began

11     in Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija, predominantly Muslim settlements of

12     Ilidza municipality.  Serbian deputies in the BH Assembly were out-voted,

13     and Muslims and Croatian deputies proclaimed the independence of BH

14     against the will of the Serbian people.  In early March 1992, Muslim

15     forces carried out an armed attack on a nearby Serbian settlement and

16     seized the Novi Grad and Novo Sarajevo police stations.

17     Alija Izetbegovic declared a general mobilisation, engaging and arming

18     Muslim forces, including the Green Berets paramilitary units.

19             In light of these events, the Crisis Staff of the Serbian

20     municipality Ilidza adopted a decision to place a defence around the

21     Serbian settlements in order in order to protect the Serbian people.  On

22     5th of April, 1992, the constitutive session of the Assembly of the

23     Serbian municipality of Ilidza took place.  The Assembly proclaimed a

24     state of imminent threat of war and authorised the commander of the

25     Crisis Staff to adopt decisions, orders, and instructions on behalf of

Page 35208

 1     the Assembly.

 2             Following a Muslim attack on Ilidza on April the 22nd, the Crisis

 3     Staff adopted a decision on to declare a state of war in Ilidza

 4     municipality.  Throughout this period, the Crisis Staff made a number of

 5     attempts to negotiate for lasting peace but received no co-operation from

 6     the Muslim side, and the conflict continued to escalate throughout 1992.

 7     In one incident, Momcilo Ceklic witnessed Muslim forces fire missiles on

 8     a bus station in Ilidza, killing and wounding several civilians.

 9             The Crisis Staff was formed pursuant to the instructions of the

10     government of the Serbian Republic of BH with the intention of taking

11     over the prerogatives and functions of the Municipal Assembly when it was

12     unable to meet.  Representatives of the government of the Serbian

13     Republic of BH appointed by the government played a co-ordinative role

14     for them to act professionally and in accordance with the law.  It was

15     not a means to remove members of the other nationalities from the

16     territory of BH in any inhumane method.  During the fighting that

17     followed, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs fled Ilidza, and some returned for

18     the duration of the war, including Muslims and Croats.  All civilians,

19     regardless of their ethnicity, were allowed freedom of movement.

20     Momcilo Ceklic had no knowledge of any camps for prisoners of war or

21     collection centre in his territory, except for one semiopen pre-war

22     prison used to house Croatian and Muslim prisoners of war as well as

23     Serbian prisoners.

24             It was never the policy of the SDS generally to permanently

25     remove Muslims and Croats from BH in Serbian regions, and genocide,

Page 35209

 1     persecution, extermination, deportation, and other inhumane acts were not

 2     propagated by the SDS staff.

 3             Dr. Radovan Karadzic could not have taken any unilateral

 4     decisions in the SDS, nor did he display such tendencies.  The

 5     municipalities were independent, and their relationship with the

 6     president of the Republika Srpska was in accordance with a valid

 7     constitutional and legal provisions.  With regards to Ilidza, it was cut

 8     off from the influence of higher organs of power throughout the war

 9     because it was under enemy encirclement.  There was no control, and the

10     course of events was decided by situation.

11             Momcilo Ceklic was aware of the existence of paramilitaries that

12     formed in the chaotic beginnings of the war, but they were not tolerated

13     by the Serbian municipality of Ilidza authorities which did its best to

14     remove them and impose order.

15             [Interpretation] This was a brief summary of Mr. Momcilo Ceklic's

16     statement summary.  I have no further questions to the witness at this

17     point.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ceklic, as you have noted from Mr. Karadzic's

19     comments that your evidence in chief in this case has been admitted in

20     writing in lieu of your oral testimony, and now you'll be cross-examined

21     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. Gustafson.

22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:


Page 35210

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ceklic.  At paragraph 12 of your statement you

 2     said that the HDZ formed a municipality in the Stup settlement of Ilidza

 3     and that on the 3rd of January, the SDS analogously proclaimed the

 4     Serbian Ilidza municipality.  Now, that suggests that this step taken by

 5     the Ilidza SDS was an independent local initiative, and in fact the

 6     decision to form a Serbian municipality in Ilidza was based at least in

 7     part on SDS Main Board instructions of 19 December 1991, otherwise known

 8     as the Variant A and B instructions; isn't that right?

 9        A.   I must tell you that the Croats in their area, that is at Stup 1

10     and Stup 2, were the first ones in Bosnia-Herzegovina who established

11     their own municipality, and as a response the Serbs proclaimed the

12     Assembly of the Serbian people on the 3rd of January, 1992.  This

13     Assembly of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza, which was proclaimed on

14     the 3rd of January, 1992, was purely fictitious, which means that it

15     didn't do anything special.  It had a preventive political character.

16        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my question was simply whether or

17     not you agree that the Serbian municipality of Ilidza was formed, at

18     least in part, based on SDS Main Board instructions of the -- of 19

19     December 1991.  Do you agree or disagree with that?

20        A.   Yes.  It was partly established based on that instruction, but

21     that instruction was never fully implemented, never fully honoured.

22        Q.   Okay.  And at paragraph 37 of your statement you talked about the

23     creation of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza, and

24     you state that the Crisis Staff was formed on the basis of the government

25     instructions, and you refer to P2717, and those instructions are dated

Page 35211

 1     the 26th of April, 1992.  And the document reflecting the creation of the

 2     Crisis Staff also referenced in your -- in that paragraph of your

 3     statement is D1193, and that document is dated the 10th of April, 1992.

 4             Now, you agree with me, don't you, that it's impossible for

 5     the -- it would have been impossible for the Serbian municipality of

 6     Ilidza to form a Crisis Staff on the 10th of April, 1992, on the basis of

 7     instructions that were only issued 16 days later, on the 26th of April,

 8     1992?

 9        A.   Speaking about Crisis Staffs in the Ilidza municipality, we must

10     distinguish between two types:  One was the party's Crisis Staff, which

11     was established on 2nd of January, 1992, and it's --

12        Q.   Mr. Ceklic, I'm aware of that distinction.  I'm just referring to

13     assertions that you have made in your statement, and your assertion at

14     paragraph 37 is that the Serbian municipality created a Crisis Staff, and

15     the document you've referenced for that is dated the 10th of April, 1992.

16     You've also asserted that that Crisis Staff was formed based on the

17     government instructions that were dated 16 days later, the 26th of April,

18     1992.  Now, you agree with me that that's impossible?

19        A.   I think I understood you well.  The Crisis Staff was formed

20     pursuant to the instruction dated 19 December 1991.  Maybe this is a play

21     on words in the statement.  The Crisis Staff was established following

22     the instructions of 19 December 1991.  Now the dates fit, and that date

23     is actually the right one.  Do you understand?  Because there was a

24     Crisis Staff that was a party's Crisis Staff of 3 January 1992, and

25     another Crisis Staff with a different structure was established on

Page 35212

 1     10 April, 1992, and this Crisis Staff in the true sense of the word is

 2     some type of a local government body which had -- which executed the

 3     duties of the municipality, although the municipality could not do its

 4     proper work.

 5             The situation at Ilidza throughout the war was very specific,

 6     because the Municipal Assembly and the municipal structures functioned

 7     almost throughout the war, and the Crisis Staff was one kind of

 8     co-ordination between the municipal bodies and the government bodies.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you again, but I think we're moving away

10     from my question.  Now, I understand your position now to be that both

11     Crisis Staffs were based -- were formed on the basis of the 19 December

12     1991 instructions.  Were you aware that at the 14th session of the

13     Bosnian Serb Assembly on the 27th of March, 1992, Karadzic instructed the

14     deputies to establish Crisis Staffs in their municipalities, and that's

15     D304, page 20?

16        A.   I was never aware of such instructions, and I doubt that

17     Mr. Karadzic would have issued such an instruction of his own accord.  He

18     is a great democrat, and all the main decisions were taken by the

19     Main Board at the level of the Serbian Republic.  Mr. Karadzic can make

20     proposals, but the decisions were taken by the Main Board which was a

21     collective organ of authority.  It decided in a democratic fashion.  In

22     the Main Board it was not Mr. Karadzic who could take decisions on his

23     own.

24             I'm not aware of any such instruction issued by Mr. Karadzic.

25     Finally, he never showed an inclination to do anything of this kind.

Page 35213

 1        Q.   Well, I won't take that any further except to just confirm that

 2     you never attended the Bosnian Serb Assembly; is that right?

 3        A.   I never attended.

 4        Q.   Okay.  That's clear.  Thank you.

 5        A.   I attended some of their meetings.

 6        Q.   Sorry, you said you never attend, and then you said I attended

 7     some of their meetings.  Did you ever attend any meetings of the Bosnian

 8     Serb Assembly at the republic level?

 9        A.   No, no.  There must be a misunderstanding.  I never attended the

10     Assembly sessions at the republic level, but I did attend meetings of the

11     Crisis Staff at the municipal level because it was part of my duties.  I

12     was referring to the local level.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ceklic.  I'm going to ask you to please keep your

14     answers as short and directed to the question as possible because I have

15     very limited time.

16             Okay.  In your statement you talk about how the Muslims were

17     preparing for war, including by arming, and I refer, for example, to

18     paragraph 13, but it's true, is it not, that the Serb authorities in

19     Ilidza undertook intense activity to arm citizens of Serbian nationality?

20        A.   I don't know what you're interested in first and foremost about

21     the arming of the Muslims or the arming of the Serbs.  The Serbs never

22     prepared for war.  They only prepared for defence, because the policy of

23     the Serb leadership and the SDS at the level of the Serbian

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina was directed at --

25        Q.   Mr. Ceklic.

Page 35214

 1        A.   -- the preservation of the biological and physical survival of

 2     the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you again, but I wasn't asking you about

 4     policies.  I was just asking you whether you agreed or disagreed with the

 5     proposition that prior to the war the Serb authorities in Ilidza

 6     undertook intense activity to arm citizens of Serbian nationality.  Do

 7     you agree or disagree?

 8        A.   The arming of the Serbs only started once the Muslims had started

 9     to arm themselves, and this arming process was based on weapons from the

10     Territorial Defence, to a very minor degree to -- on weapons from the

11     JNA's warehouses.  From Donji Potok somewhere in early April when the

12     MUP -- MUP's warehouse was placed under control, then weapons were

13     distributed to the Serbian people.  But it was clear that all the

14     goings-on would result in war.  There couldn't have been any other

15     outcome.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Krtelj was not recorded.  Perhaps

17     the witness could explain what that is.  But it was not recorded that the

18     Muslims took Krtelj.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:

20        Q.   Okay.  In your statement you refer in a number of places to

21     attacks by Muslim forces in Ilidza.  You refer to an all-out attack on

22     Ilidza on the 22nd of April.  That's paragraph 25.  An attack on Rakovica

23     settlement on the 27th of April, paragraph 32.  Another all-out attack on

24     Ilidza on the 14th of May, paragraph 33.  And at paragraph 35 you make

25     the general assertion that Ilidza was subjected to constant Muslim

Page 35215

 1     attacks, that the Serbian forces were constantly defending their lines,

 2     and they did not have any aspirations to conquer territory under Muslim

 3     control.

 4             Now, first with respect to the two all-out attacks you refer to

 5     on the 22nd of April and the 14th of May, Bosnian Serb forces not only

 6     repelled those attacks but conquered new territory in the course of them,

 7     and Bosnian Serb forces in Ilidza carried out a number of offensive

 8     operations resulting in conquering territory held by Muslims; isn't that

 9     right?

10        A.   No.  Absolutely false.  It is only correct that the first attack

11     on the Serbian population of Ilidza happened on the 25th of April at a

12     quarter before 6.00.  Ilidza was attacked from all directions,

13     Sokolovic Kolonija, Butmir, Hrasnica, Stupsko Brdo, and so on, and there

14     was heavy fighting that went on for about 12 hours.  Once they repelled

15     the Muslim attack, the Serbs stayed in their area without any ambitions

16     to conquer other territories.  The Serbs never had such ambitions.  That

17     is completely false.  Eleven people were killed, 56 were wounded.

18     Then -- but unfortunately -- yes?

19        Q.   Sorry to interrupt you again.  Your position is clear that my

20     proposition I put to you is completely false, and I'm not interested at

21     the moment in the details of these operations.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P2308, please.

23        Q.   This is a report from the 20th of September, 1993, from the

24     Ilidza public security station to the RS MUP.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 4 in both the

Page 35216

 1     languages.

 2        A.   Could you please turn up the volume.  The volume, thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The usher will be coming to assist you, Mr. Ceklic.

 4     Do you hear me well now, Mr. Ceklic?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 7        Q.   Okay.  If you could look towards the bottom half of this page.

 8     It refers to the two attacks that you describe three paragraphs from the

 9     bottom, the attack on the 22nd of April, 1992, and then in the next

10     paragraph another attack on the 14th of May, 1992, and then at the bottom

11     of the page it says that:

12             "Organisation of the defence in the above-mentioned cases was

13     done by Mr. Kovac and his associates.  It was very successful, which is

14     confirmed by the fact that the enemy didn't gain any of our territory

15     while we conquered new territory ..."

16             And then if we go to the next page, it says:

17             "Offensive actions undertaken by the members of the public

18     security station resulting in new territories under our control are as

19     follows..."

20             And then there is a rather extensive list on page 5.  13th of

21     May, it says Binjezevo was liberated joining Hadzici to Ilidza.  From the

22     15th of May to the 31st of May, Rakovica local municipality was

23     liberated, again joining territories.  1st of March, liberation of

24     Ahatovici, referred to as a Muslim strategic point.  The 9th of June,

25     1992, there's a mistake in the English translation, refers to a

Page 35217

 1     successful action in Kasindolska Street.  17th of June, liberation of

 2     airport settlement, liberation of Doglodi, member -- the conquering of

 3     the shopping centre Cenex.

 4             It's clear from this document, isn't it, Mr. Ceklic, that there

 5     were a number of offensive operations aimed at conquering new territories

 6     by Bosnian Serb forces in Ilidza?

 7        A.   As far as I remember, we talked about the first attack on the

 8     22nd of April, and I told you about what transpired on the 22nd of April.

 9     Everything else that you went on to read was beyond the 22nd of April, at

10     a later date.  The 22nd of April was before, and I was talking about

11     that, when a Muslim attack was staved off, the attack on Ilidza.  The

12     Serbs kept the status quo and held onto their own territory.

13             Everything you have enumerated happened after the 22nd of April.

14     So -- I've never heard all of this information before.  Talking about

15     Rakovica, because that's what you mentioned, it never needed to be

16     liberated because it was part of the Ilidza municipality.  It could only

17     have been viewed as active defence and certainly not as an ambition to

18     conquer territory that was predominantly Muslim.  I'm not sure if we have

19     understanding here.  I am certainly doing my best to be perfectly clear

20     on these issues.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   Excuse me.  So I'm telling you what I know about the 22nd of

23     April as someone who was there and who was a first-hand witness.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ceklic.  I'd like to stay on this document for a

25     moment and move to another topic which is the statement that you made at

Page 35218

 1     paragraph 27 that people fled Ilidza in panic and fear during the

 2     fighting and that there was no organised or forced expulsions or ethnic

 3     cleansing.

 4             Now, first it's true that the Serb police in Ilidza were

 5     detaining Muslims and taking repressive measures against them

 6     resulting -- causing them to flee, is it not?

 7        A.   No, it's not true.  That's simply not what happened.  I need to

 8     explain one thing.  When there is a war on, what you have is chaos all

 9     over the place.  Everybody fears for their own personal safety and that

10     of their families.  It wasn't just the Muslims that were fleeing Ilidza

11     at the time but Serbs and Croats, too, leaving four predominantly Croat,

12     Serb, and Muslim areas.  Serbs, too, were leaving for Montenegro and

13     Serbia.  My own family was in Serbia at the time, and that applied to

14     quite a number of people there.  So it wasn't just that the Muslims were

15     leaving.  You have people from all three ethnic groups leaving the area

16     because of the war.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ceklic.  It's --

18        A.   May I just add one thing if I may?

19        Q.   No.  I'm sorry.  Your answer to my question was very clear.  I

20     have limited time.  I just don't have time for you to give me all these

21     details.

22             It's clear that you deny that the police were taking repressive

23     measures against detained Muslims causing them to flee.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 3 of this document,

25     please, and this is again the report from the Ilidza public security

Page 35219

 1     station to the RS MUP.

 2        Q.   And the second paragraph from the bottom states that:

 3             "All detained Muslims were thoroughly interrogated in order to

 4     extract useful information regarding their intentions.  Repressive

 5     measures undertaken against them for various reasons resulted in them

 6     increasingly fleeing and moving out of this territory."

 7             So it's right here in black and white from the Serbian police

 8     station in Ilidza itself; isn't that right, Mr. Ceklic?

 9        A.   There is one thing that you need to know:  I wasn't up to date on

10     the Ilidza police station reports.  I have a rough understanding of how

11     the situation evolved in terms of any population movements and people

12     leaving Ilidza for other areas.  As for police-generated information, you

13     must understand that I wasn't privy to that.

14        Q.   Okay.  That's clear.  Now, staying on the same topic but moving

15     to another part of your statement, you referred at paragraph 30 to an

16     incident at that took place during negotiations that were taking place on

17     the 23rd of April, 1992, and you said that Muslims opened fire on Serbian

18     areas from Gornji and Donji Kotorac.  And then you said that the JNA

19     returned fire and in the ensuing search of these settlements weapons were

20     seized, the biggest extremists were taken to Kula, while civilians from

21     these settlements fled to Butmir and Dobrinja.

22             Now, it's true, is it not, that after this 23rd of April

23     operation the Muslim civilians who had fled Gornji Kotorac returned?

24     Then on the 12th of May, 1992, on the order of Mr. Prstojevic, the women

25     and children were expelled to Sarajevo and the men were imprisoned in

Page 35220

 1     Kula.  And a few days later, those men, too, were expelled.  And this is

 2     another example of the organised expulsion of non-Serbs from Ilidza.

 3             Do you agree or disagree with that?

 4        A.   I disagree.  This is entirely erroneous.  Gornji Kotorac had a

 5     total of 70 Muslim households more or less.  This was prior to the 23rd

 6     of April, 1992.  There were frequent acts of provocation from

 7     Gornji Kotorac against Kasindol and the Lukavica barracks.  So they had

 8     no choice but to respond and deduce some form of control throughout that

 9     area where quite a large quantity of weapons was found.  There was fire

10     being opened at the barracks in Lukavica and Kasindol, and that was

11     causing a lot of problems.  So these people were taken to the Kula KP Dom

12     and kept there for a while.  There were no women and children there being

13     kept at this correctional facility.  The only people being held there

14     were Muslim extremists who were frequently opening fire on those

15     positions.

16             Secondly, you couldn't say that these civilians were expelled.

17     They left on their own accord.  The simple reason being they were afraid

18     because weapons were found in the position of their fellow Muslims in

19     their homes.  They were now taken to the Kula KP Dom.  So the women and

20     children now became scared, and they left Kotorac because of that.  It's

21     not that they were driven out.  Nobody was forced to stay.  Everybody

22     was -- who was forced to leave.  Everybody was allowed to stay.  Some

23     left, but some returned even during the war, and some even spent the

24     whole duration of the war in Ilidza.  Therefore, Madam Prosecutor, I

25     think what you just specified is entirely erroneous, and I can say that

Page 35221

 1     without any kind of bias at all.

 2             Even the military-aged men who returned eventually began to

 3     pursue their activities in terms of opening fire, using all kinds of

 4     different weapons to cause unrest.  I believe it was on or about the 12th

 5     of May that something like that reoccurred just prior to the 14th of

 6     April attack on Ilidza, the second attack.

 7             So they continued to pester the military and the Serbian

 8     settlements there.  There was no other way but to do something about it.

 9     People involved in such extreme activities had to be removed in order for

10     the situation to go back to normal to some extent at least.  That is the

11     only truth, and everything else is just speculation.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Your position is clear.  If we could go

13     to P1086, please.  This is a transcript of a conversation between

14     Mr. Prstojevic and a certain Milenko, then a certain Novakovic, and

15     although it's dated the 14th of May, 1992, there's evidence from

16     Mr. Prstojevic that it should be -- that this conversation actually took

17     place on the 12th of May, and that's at transcript page 13859.  And

18     towards the bottom of the page, Mr. -- or at the top of the next page in

19     the B/C/S, I apologise, the bottom of page 1 in the English,

20     Mr. Prstojevic says:

21             "Why did Mika phone me?"

22             And Milenko says:

23             "To check with you these people in Kotorac.  What should we do

24     with them?"

25             And Mr. Prstojevic says:

Page 35222

 1             "Did you arrest them?  What did you do?"

 2             And if we turn the page in the English, Milenko says:

 3             "People are down there."

 4             And Prstojevic asks again:

 5             "Have they been arrested?"

 6             And then Milenko says a couple of lines down:

 7             "Down there on the road all of them, men are separated from

 8     women."

 9             And then Milenko again a few lines down says:

10             "I just received the word men are in the Kula prison and women

11     went in the direction of Butmir."

12             And then Novakovic comes on the phone, and if we go to the next

13     page in the B/C/S, Prstojevic asks Novakovic:

14             "Have you been cleaning Kotorac today?"

15             And Novakovic says:

16             "They have.  I don't note exact details."

17             And then a few lines down Prstojevic says:

18             "That's okay, but tell me, please, I beg of you, why did you take

19     women to Butmir?"

20             And Novakovic says:

21             "They said women were not in Butmir."

22             And then he clarifies:

23             "Well, in Butmir, yes, not to KP Dom but to Butmir.  That's where

24     they're going."

25             And Prstojevic says:

Page 35223

 1             "They cannot go to Butmir.  We'll mop up Butmir in time as well."

 2             And then the next page in English, Prstojevic says:

 3             "Butmir will be mopped up, Sokolovic will be mopped up, Hrasnica

 4     will be mopped up."

 5             And Novakovic says:

 6             "Well, I don't know where to take them."

 7             And Prstojevic says:

 8             "They will all -- there is Bascarsija?  Please take all of them

 9     to Bascarsija on foot," and he clarifies, "women, and men to prison."

10             And then Novakovic says:

11             "Okay.  I'll check with them and I'll let you know."

12             And Prstojevic says:

13             "Tell them those who convert to Orthodox religion on the spot,

14     they can stay, women and children."

15             And then they sign off.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could now go to P1126.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask one thing.  Could we

18     have fewer of these really complex questions?

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I haven't asked my question yet.

20        Q.   At P1126 is a memo from the Ilidza -- sorry, the Kula police

21     station to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Ministry of Justice dated

22     the 20th of May, and it says that since the 12th of May until the 20th of

23     May there are 156 persons detained in KPD Butmir, and in the next

24     paragraph it says that 38 persons were brought in by the Ilidza TO who

25     were in possession of automatic weapons in Kasindolska Street, and then

Page 35224

 1     it says:

 2             "47 persons from Gornji Kotorac removed in an operation by former

 3     JNA and TO Kasindol forces but returned to the area of Gornji Kotorac on

 4     the 12th of May and were therefore taken to KPD Butmir."

 5             And then it goes on to refer to other people taken from Dobrinja

 6     and Nedzarici, Vraca, et cetera.

 7             And then on the next page of the English it refers to the

 8     inadequate conditions in the prison and the need to urgently resolve the

 9     status of these detainees.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could finally go to P1151.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I perhaps comment?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   I'll ask you a question after I show you one more document,

14     Mr. Ceklic.  And this is another letter from the Ilidza Kula police

15     station dated five days after their previous one, and it refers to their

16     previous letter again addressed to the Ministry of Justice and the

17     Ministry of the Interior, and it refers to the problems of accommodation

18     from the previous letter, and then in the next paragraph it says:

19             "After co-ordinating with the minister of justice and the SJB

20     undersecretary on the 20th of May, 114 persons were taken to the

21     Vrbanja Bridge location and sent into the city.  This group consisted of

22     persons whose place of residence was in Gornji Kotorac and Dobrinja."

23             And then it says that they had unsuccessful communications with

24     the Ilidza exchange bureau, so they decided to send these detainees to

25     the -- to Sarajevo, and then it refers to the need to resolve the status

Page 35225

 1     of the 38 persons taken in from Kasindolska Street who were in possession

 2     of automatic weapons, hand grenades, and it states had extreme views and

 3     therefore should not be exchanged.

 4             Now, as these documents show, the Muslim civilians from

 5     Gornji Kotorac who returned to Gornji Kotorac on the 12th of May were

 6     expelled; the women and children were sent directly to Bascarsija, the

 7     men were detained at Kula, and they, too, a few days later were sent into

 8     Muslim-held Sarajevo?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, excuse me, Mr. President, that's like a bar

10     examination question.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let's see how the witness can answer the

12     question.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  But how --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  How could he possibly remember all the --

16             JUDGE KWON:  If he does not remember, then he can say he cannot

17     remember that.  Let us see.

18             Yes, Mr. Ceklic, do you remember the question, or should I ask

19     her to repeat the question?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the question is a bit too

21     comprehensive.  Perhaps it would be more effective to ask a series of

22     questions subsumed under this one huge large-scale question.  But if we

23     have sufficient time, perhaps I could shed some light on this.

24             As for these orders, I'm really not privy to that.  As for the

25     KP Dom, again I did not have any direct knowledge of how it operated.

Page 35226

 1     All I know is the accounts of some people and witnesses who were there

 2     and were released.  They stated themselves for the record that they fared

 3     much better at the KP Dom than in their own homes and that the care there

 4     was better.  It's an incontrovertible fact that given the wartime

 5     conditions, the conditions at the KP Dom were good, and the professionals

 6     there, it is my deepest conviction, worked in keeping with all the rules

 7     governing the work and existence of that institution also in terms of

 8     prisoner treatment.

 9             As for Kotorac and women and children being driven out, I cannot

10     accept that assertion.  Not a single person was ever driven out of Ilidza

11     regardless of their ethnicity.  People were leaving because they feared

12     for their own personal safety and that of their families.  So it was only

13     to be expected that those people would be heading for predominantly

14     Muslim, Serb, or Croat areas as it were.  The reference here obviously is

15     to the Muslims.  Furthermore, no women or children or indeed pregnant

16     women were ever locked up in the KP Dom at Kula.  That is entirely untrue

17     and cannot be maintained as simple as that.  I was the Assembly

18     secretary.  I -- I worked in an office, but I did know quite a lot of

19     things about a number of different things that were going on at the time,

20     and that's what I can share with you today.

21             People being driven out, no way.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:

23        Q.   Okay.  Well, were you aware at the time that Mr. Prstojevic had a

24     conversation about what to do with people in Gornji Kotorac and he

25     instructed that the women and children be sent to Bascarsija on foot

Page 35227

 1     unless they converted to the Orthodox religion on the spot and the men

 2     were to be taken to the Kula prison?  Did you know about that at the

 3     time?

 4        A.   I didn't know that at the time.  I've heard about it somewhat

 5     later.  This is anti-rhetoric, though.  Mr. Prstojevic said a lot of

 6     things and said many more things than he actually ended up doing.  I

 7     don't think this was done.  I think he was just talking a lot.  But he's

 8     an honourable man, and I think if push ever came to shove, he would have

 9     been the first to take a stand and say that no one was to be driven out.

10     This is anti-rhetoric.  It's as simple as that.  He was just being

11     carried away by the general war atmosphere if you ask me.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, do you deny then that the men were -- were taken to

13     Kula prison in accordance with Mr. Prstojevic's instructions?

14        A.   I am not denying anything.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   I am not denying that there were men in prison because of all the

17     reasons that I enumerated but not for the reasons stated by

18     Mr. Prstojevic.  Mr. Prstojevic said a lot of things, but none of that

19     ever came to be.  He was just shooting his mouth off for the sake of

20     doing it.

21        Q.   Well, Mr. Ceklic, the Chamber has received substantial evidence

22     of Mr. Prstojevic's involvement in military matters in Ilidza and the

23     surroundings, and I would refer, for example, to P5710, P5705, P2411, and

24     P5690.

25             First, were you aware of Mr. Prstojevic's military role at the

Page 35228

 1     time?

 2        A.   No.  No.  Mr. Prstojevic had links to the civilian authorities

 3     and no more than that.  There was some co-ordination between these

 4     various bodies at Ilidza municipality level, but it was all about the

 5     normal operation of all the relevant authorities in Ilidza municipal

 6     territory.  The people in charge of the military were professionals,

 7     Territorial Defence likewise, police likewise, qualified, appropriately

 8     skilled people who knew their jobs.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I'd just like to cover one last topic briefly with you

10     which is the topic of paramilitaries.  At paragraphs 45 and 46 of your

11     statement, you said that the paramilitaries were not tolerated by the

12     army, the MUP, or the Serbian municipality of Ilidza and that the

13     municipality tried their best to have them removed.

14             If we could go to P5691, please.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 22 -- or, rather, page 22,

16     line 16, it should read "honourable man."

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   This is a transcript a conversation, Mr. Ceklic, on the 13th of

19     May between Captain Legija, one of Arkan's men, and Milisav Gagovic, who

20     at the time was commander of the JNA 4th Corps in Sarajevo, and this is a

21     brief conversation.  After the introductions, Gagovic asks:

22             "What's up?"

23             And Legija says:

24             "Well, these men here are kind of trying to get up there towards

25     those through Kasindolska Street to the airport, and those people they

Page 35229

 1     were fighting ferociously, but this very centre of Ilidza, these parts of

 2     the municipality, I don't know."

 3             Gagovic asks:

 4             "Okay.  Are they falling?  Is it possible to monitor where these

 5     shells are coming from?"

 6             And then a few lines down, Legija says:

 7             "I'm going to place my monitors up there."

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to the next page in the

 9     English.

10        Q.   Gagovic says -- and Gagovic says:

11             "Go ahead and have the monitor report about where the shells are

12     falling.  I can cover it all from here from the airport."

13             And then Legija says, and this is at the next page in the B/C/S:

14             "Well, I am going to place my monitors now.  And these things

15     coming down from Igman - and there they have those - I know mortars.  If

16     I catch their fire, I will send you their grid references up there."

17             And Gagovic says:

18             "Go ahead and do it now."

19             Now, were you aware, Mr. Ceklic, of this kind of co-ordination of

20     military activities between the commander of the JNA 4th Corps and

21     Arkan's men in reference to operations in Ilidza?

22        A.   No.  First I hear of it.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to P2229.

25        Q.   This is a conversation between Mico Stanisic and Nedjeljko Zugic

Page 35230

 1     from the 15th of May, 1992.  And again it's a very short conversation.

 2     And after the introductions, Stanisic says about halfway down the page:

 3             "What are you doing?"

 4             Zugic says:

 5             "I've just come from Sokolac."

 6             And a few lines down, Mico Stanisic says:

 7             "Good.  And where are you now?"

 8             And Zugic responds:

 9             "I'm in the Serb municipality of Ilidza."

10             "And Stanisic says:

11             "Tell me what the situation is like."

12             Zugic says:

13             "With Vuk and Mlaco and Prstojevic."

14             And on the next page in English, Stanisic says:

15             "Tell me what the situation is like over there."

16             And Zugic says:

17             "Well, we got reinforcements from Gagovic.  Some Arkanovci and

18     Seseljevci came.  I don't know."

19             And Stanisic says:

20             "Good."

21             Again, were you aware at the time of this kind of approval that

22     the minister of interior gave to the presence of Arkan and Seselj's men

23     in Ilidza?

24        A.   I know these men, Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Zugic, but I wasn't privy

25     to this information.  I don't know anything about it.  Unless you want to


Page 35231

 1     know about the paramilitary units and groups.  Perhaps I could should

 2     some light on that.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Mr. Ceklic.  I have no further

 4     questions.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Very briefly.  Can we

 8     please leave the last document -- or, rather, return the last document to

 9     our screen.  P2229.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please look at the second to last

12     thing here.

13             "Well, we have received reinforcements from Gagovic."

14             Could you tell us, this person Gagovic, he was an officer in

15     which army exactly?  Who was around on the 15th of May in your area?

16        A.   He was a JNA officer.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know anything about the relationship between

18     the army and -- on one hand and the volunteers and paramilitaries on the

19     other following the 12th of May when Republika Srpska VRS was

20     established?

21        A.   First and foremost, Mr. President, the paramilitary units and

22     volunteer units that arrived in Ilidza were people who were not known to

23     us, and they caused more damage to the Serbian people in Ilidza than any

24     good that they may have done.  There was no benefit to their presence at

25     all for us.  The regular military units and the police tried to drive

Page 35232

 1     those units out of Ilidza, but the MUP and the public security station in

 2     Ilidza was facing a dire situation because they were running out of

 3     equipment and weapons.

 4             Could you call those paramilitary units?  I don't know.  That may

 5     be a bit too harsh.  These weren't real units.  They were just minor

 6     groups normally numbering between 10 and 20 men.  They would only stick

 7     around for a very short while.  They would loot the areas around whenever

 8     and wherever they could, and they would simply leave, flee Ilidza with

 9     whatever it was that they took.

10             Now excuse me, Mr. President.  The military and the police were

11     doing their best to place those paramilitary units under control, which

12     was difficult to do, particularly after the date you specified when a

13     certain number of people, a great minority, reported, volunteered with

14     the VRS.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What was the distance between the war zone and

16     Gornji Kotorac, Ilidza, and the settlements that we have been talking

17     about?

18        A.   As the crow flies from right in the middle of Ilidza, across

19     Hrasnica and Vojkovic, I don't know, perhaps 1.000 metres.  Nonetheless,

20     for us to reach those areas, the eastern part of Ilidza, we had to take a

21     round about route of about 120, 140 kilometres.  So Ilidza was in the

22     thick of the war throughout its duration and the siege was far fiercer

23     than that of Muslim Sarajevo, and this is one thing that people tend to

24     forget these days.  Ilidza was under siege for the duration of the war.

25     And it was because of that siege, Mr. President, that we were unable to

Page 35233

 1     have a normal communication with the eastern reaches of our municipality.

 2     We had take a 140-kilometre round about route in order to get there,

 3     whereas as the crow flies the actual distance was no more than a

 4     kilometre.

 5        Q.   All right.  And what about Gornji Kotorac?  Where were the

 6     confrontation lines in relation to these villages and how far were those

 7     from the theatre of war?

 8        A.   The distance between those positions was not particularly great.

 9     I think between 150 and 200 metres.  No more than that separating the

10     confrontation lines.  If I understand you correctly, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And now tell us, please, as a lawyer you must know

12     this, what are the obligations?  Are there certain obligations of the

13     army that is in combat and fighting towards civilians in the areas that

14     are affected by the combat?

15        A.   Well, certainly each army in keeping with the international law

16     is supposed to treat civilians in a humane way to comply with the Geneva

17     Conventions and the rules of war.

18        Q.   What about evacuations?  Does it have the right or the duty --

19     or, rather, is it allowed to keep the civilians in the areas where combat

20     is going on?

21        A.   No.  It's not allowed to do that.  They can move them perhaps if

22     certain conditions are met.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just one more question.  There were some

24     measures mentioned here.  Now, as a lawyer, can you tell us whether there

25     are any measures that are envisaged by law?  Well, repressive measures

Page 35234

 1     envisaged by law.

 2        A.   Well, the repressive measures are there in order to prevent

 3     crimes being committed.  For instance, in our areas we had a historic

 4     session of the Assembly of the Ilidza municipality of the Serbian people

 5     on the 28th of August where certain decisions and conclusions were

 6     adopted to the effect that all relevant structures may carry out their

 7     normal duties, including the army, the police, the prosecutor's office,

 8     the judiciary, and so on.  So at this session, the special focus was

 9     placed on the prevention of crime, because there were frequently

10     instances where state public property was damaged, so there were calls

11     for those perpetrators to be prosecuted and for the prosecution and the

12     judiciary that at that time were functioning well to take measures in

13     keeping with the law.

14        Q.   Thank you.  What are the criteria that the Muslims took?  Or

15     actually what was Krtelj --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   -- for the Muslims?

19        A.   Well, that was a base of the Muslims.  On the 3rd and 4th of

20     April, Muslim Specials captured Krtelj and then they informed the Muslim

21     forces that there would be convoys arriving from Sarajevo, entire convoys

22     with weapons in order to arm of the Muslim people.  That's a generally

23     known fact.  This was on the 3rd and 4th of April, 1991, and at the same

24     time in this area sometime in the middle of the night around 12.30

25     they -- Muslims with some four APCs were prepared to capture Krtelj.

Page 35235

 1             So this is to do with the arming and with the movement of these

 2     forces.  So this was their main base, the main Muslim base which was used

 3     for arming the Muslim people.  Although there were other people who armed

 4     themselves via private channels, also taking weapons away from the TO

 5     depots and depots of JNA units.  So they've started arming themselves

 6     very early on, perhaps early in 1991.  Unfortunately, that was how it

 7     was.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to read out to you a brief portion on

 9     Mr. Prstojevic's position.  This is dated the 4th of May or the 1st of

10     May 1992, D10206.  He says as follows:

11             "We also stress that the Serbian authorities of the Serbian

12     municipality of Ilidza provide -- allow free movement of civilians across

13     the territory of this municipality irrespective of their ethnic party,

14     gender, or any other affiliation.  All of this, of course, provided that

15     there is police control at check-points."

16             Now, how does this tally with what you know about this?

17        A.   Mr. President, until the first attack on the 21st of April, 1992,

18     all citizens of Ilidza could move freely, because our check-points,

19     metaphorically speaking, I may say, were rather elastic.  So there was

20     absolutely no obstacle to freely moving along those roads.  Now, as of

21     the 21st of April, when the first attack on Ilidza was, the only persons

22     who were free to move -- who were allowed to move freely were able bodied

23     men of Serb ethnicity who had to stay there because -- for the purpose of

24     defence.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the basis for arresting able-bodied

Page 35236

 1     Muslims?  Were all Muslims, able bodied Muslims in Ilidza?  Were they all

 2     called up and taken to the police station to be questioned?

 3        A.   Well, no, not everybody was called to report to the police

 4     station.  Only extremists, people who had weapons, who harassed the

 5     Serbian population and military targets.  All other citizens who just

 6     behaved like any normal reasonable people, of course, they wouldn't have

 7     to be detained or brought to the police station for questioning, nor did

 8     we want for something like that to be done.  There was no decision of the

 9     Municipal Assembly, the War Presidency.  What -- adopted in that sense --

10     in that sense, nor was it ever -- nor was anything like that ever ordered

11     by the top leadership, including yourself, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ceklic, how did they distinguish the extremists

13     from ordinary people?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that was very simple.  An

15     extremist is a person who keeps opening fire on Serb areas against the

16     Serbian population, who opens fire at the Yugoslav People's Army, and the

17     police.  I don't know what else you could call it.  It's either an

18     extremist or an aggressor.  Probably aggressor rather than extremist.

19     And when these people were checked, that's where large quantities of

20     weapons were found, and there were lists of all the weapons that had been

21     seized.  And it is for this reason that these people were brought in and

22     kept at the penal and correctional facility at Butmir.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   Were there any Muslims and Croats -- or how many of them were

Page 35237

 1     there?  Because you said that there were some Muslims and Croats who

 2     returned or who stayed in this area throughout the war.

 3        A.   Yes.  Throughout the war there were Muslim and Croats who

 4     remained in Ilidza and they live there to this day.  I don't know if this

 5     Court has this information from 1994 from IFOR or UNHCR to the effect

 6     that a massive number of Muslims remained in Ilidza living there

 7     throughout the war and they still reside there to this day.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  How many Muslims did you convert to Christianity in

 9     the course of the war?

10        A.   Well, I really don't know.  Are you trying to say whether we put

11     pressure on them to convert to the Orthodox faith?  Well, that's really

12     absurd.  Everyone is free to choose what job they will do, what religion

13     they will abide by.  So that was never in our plan.

14        Q.   Well, it's "van svijke pomitaj" [phoen], I wouldn't really say

15     "observed."  I would say "out of mind."  Well, the reason I'm asking you

16     this is because of what Prstojevic quoted.

17        A.   Well, as I said, that's just sheer rhetoric, as I -- it had

18     nothing to do with reality.  It was very far from reality nor there was

19     ever anything like that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Ceklic.  I have no further questions.

21     Thank you for coming to answer the questions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That concludes your evidence,

23     Mr. Ceklic.  On behalf the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The

24     Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you.


Page 35238

 1     May I just put a question here if you allow me to the President of the

 2     Chamber?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We do not entertain a question from the witness --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's of a private nature.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to go to private session?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's of a private nature.  No, no.

 7     If I may just exchange greetings with Mr. President -- with the President

 8     before I leave The Hague Tribunal, that's all.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Cekic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies.  His name was Ceklic, not Cekic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it is really admirable how

14     well you can actually pronounce our last names.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Is the next witness ready?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness make the solemn declaration,

20     please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tesic.  Please be seated and make

24     yourself comfortable.

25                           WITNESS:  BRANIMIR TESIC


Page 35239

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Tesic, I must

 3     draw your attention to a certain Rule that we have here at the -- at the

 4     International Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E) of Rules of Procedure and

 5     Evidence.  Under this Rule, you may object to answering any question from

 6     Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe

 7     that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this

 8     context, "incriminate" means saying something that may amount to an

 9     admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might

10     provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

11     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

12     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

13     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.

14     However, in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony

15     compelled in -- under such circumstances would not be used in any case

16     that might be laid against you for any offence save and except the

17     offence of giving false testimony.

18             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Tesic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tesic.  Did you give a

24     statement to my Defence team?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 35240

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And thank you for pausing between my question and

 2     your answer, because we have to wait for the interpretation.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now 1D7198, please, in

 4     e-court.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 6        Q.   Can you see the statement of yours on the screen before you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

 9        A.   Yes, I've read it and signed it.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

11     the last page with his signature on it.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is this your signature?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect your words,

16     what you've said to the Defence team?

17        A.   Yes, it does.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today that

19     were put to you on that occasion, would your answer in essence be the

20     same?

21        A.   Yes, in essence they would be the same.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

24     statement under 92 ter, Rule 92 ter.

25             JUDGE KWON:  You are not tendering any associated exhibits?

Page 35241

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Costi?

 3             MR. COSTI:  No, Your Honours.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I note, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Karadzic, that it has been

 6     the -- our practice that when a substantial new information is added to

 7     the statement less than 48 hours prior to testimony, that new information

 8     should be led live.  Do you have any observation in that regard?  I'm

 9     referring to the last four paragraphs relating to the adjudicated facts.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, we don't -- we didn't --

11     first of all, we did run a little short of the 48-hour requirement, and

12     if I -- I was expecting if the Prosecution had any problem with that we

13     would have rescheduled the witness, and it would be our preference not to

14     lead those live, and we also don't think they're particularly

15     substantial, but if the Chamber -- whenever you want to hear something

16     live, of course, we'll do that.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE KWON:  In light of the circumstances, particularly in which

19     the Prosecution does not oppose the admission, on an exceptional basis

20     we'll admit the statement in its entirety, but we are making sure that we

21     are not deviating from our practice.  Please bear that in mind in the

22     future.

23             Yes.  We'll receive the statement.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3115, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 35242

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read out a

 2     short summary statement by Mr. Branimir Tesic in English.

 3             [In English] Branimir Tesic was born on 6th of May, 1995, in

 4     Bratunac, and currently resides in Ljubovija Serbia.  In 1992, he was

 5     appointed as the deputy commander of a Serbian police station in

 6     Bratunac.

 7             The Bratunac SJB employed mainly Muslims but also some Serbs.

 8     Interethnic relations were satisfactory until the beginning of the war as

 9     tensions mounted and people began obtaining weapons; however, people

10     became concerned for their safety and began leaving Bratunac.  In

11     Bratunac in 1991, a large number of Muslims gathered in front of the

12     municipality building in Bratunac where a small military police unit came

13     from Tuzla to take over the card files.  The Muslims refused to let them

14     enter the building.  After this news spread, Serbs started to gather in

15     order to support the JNA.  Thanks to the police who separated the people,

16     large-scale incidents were prevented.

17             Later, the commander of the military police unit was forced to

18     order firing in the air in order to make the Muslims move away from the

19     them, and then he withdrew with the unit.  They moved into a primary

20     school building near the municipality building while the Muslim police

21     remained in the police building, so making two police stations on a

22     grid-way.  Later the Muslims left this police station with the other and

23     handed over this police station to the Serbian police.  Mr. Tesic and

24     other policemen with an army unit were required to ask the inhabitants of

25     the area who owned weapons illegally to hand over the weapons to the

Page 35243

 1     police station.

 2             In early May 1992, Branimir Tesic and a police patrol were

 3     assigned to escort a struck to Milici.  On their way back, in Hranca,

 4     they saw shooting all around them and something was burning.  They were

 5     told that Muslims had attacked a JNA column that was withdrawing from the

 6     Central Bosnia towards Serbia, and this was confirmed later when they

 7     returned to Bratunac.

 8             Branimir Tesic was not aware that some Muslims were brought to

 9     Bratunac from Hranca that evening and locked up at the Vuk Karadzic

10     elementary school, nor did he know that some Muslims were killed during

11     that time because he was not there nor he was -- nor was he needed to

12     interfere.

13             Regarding the operation in Glogova in early May 1992,

14     Branimir Tesic had no specific knowledge because he was not there.

15     Through later -- though later he knew that some vehicles which were

16     carrying some Muslims, he did not know if any Muslims were taken to

17     Vuk Karadzic elementary school on that day.

18             Both army and civilian authorities had a lot of problems with

19     volunteers.  They were very hard to control, and many were often drunk or

20     steal property.  They even physically attacked policemen and the station

21     itself.

22             In late May 1992, Branimir Tesic heard rumours that Muslims in

23     Sandici had ambushed a military armoured vehicle travelling from Bratunac

24     to Vlasenica.  That night, the chief of the police station,

25     Milutin Milosevic, was captured and killed subsequently.  Many soldiers

Page 35244

 1     were killed or wounded there.  Later, they tried to exchange the bodies

 2     with the Muslims but were refused.

 3             Around 14th of July 1995, Branimir Tesic heard that

 4     Zeljko Ninkovic, a member of the PJP, was killed in Sandici during an

 5     attack launched by the Muslims from other police -- policemen who were

 6     with Ninkovic that day.  About the incident in the buildings of the

 7     farmers cooperative in Kravica, Branimir Tesic heard that one of the

 8     Muslims started shooting at the police with a rifle and then the security

 9     officers opened fire -- fires on the Muslims.

10             And that is a short summary.  I don't have questions for this --

11     for witness for the moment.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Before we take the

14     break, I was checking my records concerning the notification for this

15     witness, and I was wondering if the Chamber could also check, because my

16     records show that we provided 59 hours notice, but perhaps you could

17     check your own records.  Maybe you didn't receive notice when I did, so

18     thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a bit longer break than usual, for 35

22     minutes, and resume at 10 past 11.00.

23             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I was going to wait until after this, as I

25     appreciate you didn't see me, but I would -- just wanted to say that the


Page 35245

 1     distinction between 48 hours, 50 hours, and so on may be a distinction

 2     without a difference depending upon the substance of the additional

 3     information.  I think the Trial Chamber has made that clear, so I --

 4     we've made the point before that it isn't necessarily a bright line test

 5     depending on the nature of the information provided, and I think the

 6     Court has made that clear too.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I apologise for the delay.  The Judges' deliberation

11     went a bit longer than expected.

12             Yes, Mr. Costi.

13             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Costi:

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Tesic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   I would like to start by talking about the days after the fall of

18     Srebrenica in July 1995.  At paragraph 37 of your statement, you said

19     that one evening you saw a number of buses with Muslims arriving and

20     staying in Bratunac overnight.  The police was guarding the prisoners at

21     night; is that correct?

22        A.   It is correct that the military police were guarding those

23     prisoners during the night, as far as I know.

24        Q.   Well, let me briefly read you what Bogdan Subotic, a military

25     policeman, said in the Popovic case on the 1st September 2008 at

Page 35246

 1     transcript 24991 and 24992.  He's describing the military police

 2     escorting a column of buses from Nova Kasaba to Bratunac.  And then he's

 3     asked:

 4             "Q. When you arrived in Bratunac, who did you hand the prisoners

 5     over, to whom and where?

 6             "A. I handed them over to members of the station of the interior

 7     in Bratunac, the civilian police.  They awaited us at the entrance of the

 8     school."

 9             And later on he further explained:

10             "Can you tell me more about it?"

11             And he says:

12             "I was at the head of the column.  I reached the gate of the

13     elementary school.  I waited a member of the civilian police to come out,

14     and then I informed them that I had POWs.  He said - the police, the

15     civilian police - that he was informed and said that he should move the

16     armoured vehicle around so that the buses could enter into the school."

17             So I'm asking you again, the civilian police was guarding the

18     prisoners in Bratunac that night; correct?

19        A.   No.  The civilian police did not guard the prisoners during that

20     night at Bratunac.  First of all, you have just said that the civilian

21     police had to move their armoured vehicles, but the civilian police never

22     had any armoured vehicles.

23        Q.   I'm sorry.  There must have been a misunderstanding.  This is not

24     what I said.  This is the military policeman who testified and said that

25     he was told to move their armoured vehicle in order to let the buses to

Page 35247

 1     enter the school.  But you gave an interview to the office of the

 2     prosecutor of the state court of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 2008, and in that

 3     context you -- you gave a slightly different answer to the similar

 4     question.  You were asked:

 5             "Our information is that you instructed some policemen to go and

 6     help to secure the people."

 7             And your answer was:

 8             "That is possible.  That's possible, but what I'm saying is that

 9     I was not in position -- in a position to give out or to assign any

10     people to assist the security."

11             So if I understand correctly what you said to the prosecutor in

12     Bosnia is that it's possible that civilian police was there, but as far

13     as you knew, you didn't give any order.  You didn't deploy them, but it's

14     possible that they were there.  Is this your testimony today, or you

15     change your position and now you're saying that the civilian police was

16     not guarding the prisoners?

17        A.   No, no.  I have not changed my position.  This isn't about

18     positions but about what happened.  It's possible that there was someone,

19     but no order was issued.  I didn't have enough staff at the Bratunac

20     police station to provide security to buses carrying Muslims.

21        Q.   Thank you.  So you agree that it's possible that the police was

22     there.

23             Now, in the same interview to the Prosecutor in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you also said that you only heard about the shooting

25     and the killings that night at the Vuk Karadzic school and the stadium,

Page 35248

 1     and we are talking about 1995, that you only heard later through the

 2     trials.

 3             Now, you meant the trials here in The Hague, didn't you?

 4        A.   Yes.  Both here in The Hague and the trials in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, before the court of BH.  I heard shooting, but at

 6     that time you could hear shouting all about the place, from the stadium,

 7     from the school, from the Poca Usa [phoen], from Srebrenica, from

 8     Voljavica.  You could hear shooting from all over the place at the time.

 9     And we learned of the killings only later when the buildings, the

10     schools, and so on, were vacated and the civilian protection entered and

11     found a number of dead bodies.

12        Q.   So what you said at paragraph 37 of your statement is not

13     accurate, because -- and I read, you say:

14             "I do not know if there was shooting in the town that night and

15     if any Muslim were killed."

16        A.   Not that night.  I didn't know whether anybody was killed that

17     night, but later we learned that people had been killed, that is, dead

18     bodies were discovered, bodies of people who had probably been killed.

19        Q.   All right.  So you learned later through the trials as you

20     explained a few seconds ago.

21             MR. COSTI:  Now, can I have P04398, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Tesic, this is an article that was published in

23     "The Independent," an English newspaper, on the 21st of July 1995.  So

24     more or less a week after the 13 of July.  And if we go to the first page

25     at paragraph 3, it says:

Page 35249

 1             "One Serb woman who claimed to have seen the main execution site,

 2     a playground in Bratunac, spoke of a field knee-deep in blood.  And the

 3     killings are said to be continuing.  'It is terrible what they are doing.

 4     If I could, I would call the people in Bratunac for this,' the woman

 5     said."

 6             And on the second page in paragraph 4:

 7             "The two women say that the killing were going on at the

 8     'playground' earlier described as a stadium and a school near some kind

 9     of warehouse.  Testimony from all other sources mention the same sites."

10             So two random women from Serbia knew that people were killed at

11     that time and you, the deputy commander of the police, that probably, as

12     you said, but it was in fact there guarding the prisoners, you only heard

13     about this event through the trials in The Hague or before the Bosnian

14     Serb court.  Is this your testimony?

15        A.   No.  I'm not saying that I first learned of this in The Hague.

16     The information reached me much sooner when the buildings -- the school

17     buildings were vacated.  Then the news spread.  But what I'm trying to

18     say, that the civilian police of Bratunac was not charged with guarding

19     those buses.  At the time, we didn't have enough staff --

20        Q.   Sir --

21        A.   -- because they were in the field, and we could not assign anyone

22     to securing these buses.  We merely secured roads from Bratunac to

23     Kravica, Konjevic Polje, and so on.

24        Q.   So you were a deputy commander --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 35250

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The -- a question was put to the

 2     witness as if he hadn't answered at the top of page 42.  He said that

 3     they learned as soon as the school was vacated, that they learned of the

 4     killings.

 5             MR. COSTI:  If I may answer to that.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, very well.  Let's proceed, Mr. Costi, yes.

 7             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Now, in your statement you said at paragraph 39 that

 9     Zeljko Ninkovic was killed in the evening of the 13th July.  In fact, he

10     was killed early in the morning of the 13th July; is that correct?

11        A.   Here in paragraph 39 it says the 14th of July, 1995, but I

12     reiterate that I do not remember the exact date.  It was during that

13     period, however.  He was a police officer of the Bratunac police station.

14     At that moment he had been -- he was part of the unit from Zvornik and

15     that unit that secured that the road probably from Kravica to

16     Konjevic Polje.  This officer, Zeljko Ninkovic, was killed.

17        Q.   Let me just clarify:  At paragraph 39 you said that on the 14th

18     you learned that the evening before, meaning the 13th, Ninkovic was

19     killed.  So it's not the 14th, the date you indicated in your statement,

20     but I -- I understand your testimony.  You're not sure about the date.

21             MR. COSTI:  Can I have P06189, please.

22        Q.   Now, if we see the document on the screen, at the -- it says that

23     in the early morning hours of the 13th July 1995, the 1st PJP Company

24     Zvornik SJB had contact with a large enemy group.  And it goes on and it

25     says:

Page 35251

 1             "However, Zeljko Ninkovic, a policeman from the 1st Company, born

 2     in 1967, was killed."

 3             So this report, CJB report, Zvornik CJB report indicates that he

 4     was killed in the morning, early hours at 4.00 in the morning of the

 5     13th; is that correct?

 6        A.   Don't ask me if this is correct.  If such a document was drafted

 7     and sent out, it's probably true.  This document bears the date of

 8     13 July and probably it is accurate.  You're asking me after 20-odd years

 9     if I remember the date or possibly the hour when someone was killed.  I

10     can't know that now.  I can't know the exact hour when someone was

11     killed.  This is a dispatch and there is no signature on it, but it says

12     that it was -- the original was signed by Dragomir Vasic, and I think it

13     must be accurate.

14        Q.   Very well.  So -- and the funeral of Ninkovic was the day after,

15     on the 14th.

16        A.   Probably on the day after he was killed in accordance to Serbian

17     customs -- not only Serbian customs.  There must -- a certain time must

18     elapse before someone was buried.  So he was probably buried on the

19     following day.

20        Q.   Thank you.  At paragraph 40 of your statement you say that you

21     heard later about the massacre at the Kravica warehouse.  Now, you

22     actually heard about it on the 14th, didn't you?  So only a few hours

23     after people were killed at the Kravica warehouse, because on the 14th in

24     Bratunac, everyone was talking about it; is it correct?

25        A.   I cannot say if I learned of it on the 14th, but probably at the

Page 35252

 1     moment when it was happening I was in no position to know about it.  I

 2     was at Bratunac and they were at Sandici, which is some 13 or 14

 3     kilometres away.  A certain time had to pass, a few hours at the least,

 4     for the news to spread that the people were being killed there.  But I

 5     was nowhere close to Sandici on that day.

 6        Q.   Very well.  So let's go back in time to 1992.  In your statement

 7     at paragraph 27 and 28, you said that you only heard later that Muslims

 8     were kept at the football stadium, and that you only heard later that

 9     Muslims were detained and some of them killed at the Vuk Karadzic school.

10     We're talking about May 1992; is it correct?

11        A.   Here in my statement it says later.  "Later" can mean anything, a

12     few hours later or ten days later.  When people gathered at the stadium,

13     I probably knew a few hours later that this was happening.  The Muslim

14     population came there mostly voluntarily or escorted -- or rather,

15     secured by the TO.  Our orders were not to interfere with the TO's

16     business, and they were part of the armed forces, the JNA.  Besides the

17     TO, there was a small JNA unit present, and they had their own military

18     police squad.  Apart from the Bratunac MP, there was also this military

19     unit of the JNA, and we had received orders by Chief Milutin Milosevic

20     who, as far as we knew, had been in touch with the then CJB of the

21     Birca Romanija district, and we were ordered not to interfere with what

22     the TO and the army were doing.

23        Q.   Very well then.  You said this in the statement.

24             MR. COSTI:  Can we have P04308.  And if we can please go to the

25     last page, page 282.

Page 35253

 1        Q.   So this that you should have in front of you, it's an aerial

 2     picture of Bratunac that you can probably recognise.  Now, you can see,

 3     can't you, the -- that -- okay.  Sorry.  Now I can finally see it in

 4     front of my screen.  Apologies.

 5             You can see that -- what is the stadium, can't you, is on the

 6     left side, is this empty field close to where we have the labour

 7     "Vuk Karadzic school"; right?  That's the stadium; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you can also see the Vuk Karadzic school itself because it's

10     pointed with a red arrow, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you can also see the police station is indicated right in the

13     centre of this picture.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, would you agree with me that this is not more than a

16     five-minute walk from the police station to the Vuk Karadzic school and

17     the stadium?  So my question for you is:  No matter what you were ordered

18     or not, you must have known at the time what was going on at the stadium

19     and the school?  You must have known as deputy head of the police that

20     thousands of Muslims were brought there, right, and not later.

21        A.   It is correct that this is within five minutes walking, but if

22     you're saying that I had to know, no, I didn't.  Why should I have to

23     know.  I know that Muslims are gathering on the stadium, the football

24     pitch, and that's what I stated in an earlier statement.  We didn't

25     provide security to them, and I don't see why I had to know.  Well, yes,


Page 35254

 1     I did know that they were gathering there.  The Muslims were gathering at

 2     the football pitch of Bratunac on that day.

 3        Q.   Before we move on, so you did know that the Muslims were at the

 4     football stadium and the Vuk Karadzic school at the time they were there

 5     and not later as you said in your statement.

 6        A.   I knew that these Muslims were gathering at the football pitch,

 7     and later we learned about some events, that there had been victims.

 8        Q.   Very well.

 9             MR. COSTI:  Mr. President, can we go into private session,

10     please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35255











11  Pages 35255-35256 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35257

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Can we have 65 ter 24757A.

17        Q.   Mr. Tesic, this is a statement that B1070, a protected witness in

18     the Slobodan Milosevic, gave again to the BiH MUP, this time on the 29th

19     of June, 1992.

20             MR. COSTI:  And if we go to e-court pages 8 and 9 of the English

21     and B/C/S 10.

22        Q.   And again the witness described --

23             MR. COSTI:  At the bottom of the page in English version.  Sorry.

24     It starts about -- yeah, around 19.

25        Q.   So the witness says he was again detained at the stadium and then


Page 35258

 1     brought to the Vuk Karadzic school, and he says when he was still in the

 2     stadium.

 3             "At around 1900 hours, the residents were ordered to form two

 4     lines and start walking towards the entrance gate of the stadium where

 5     there were guards.  There was a number of special task forces from

 6     Belgrade at the gate separating men aged between 15 and 50 from women,

 7     children, and old men who were led towards the trucks parked in front of

 8     Lamela in Bratunac.  Once he finished separating us, we were lined up in

 9     four rows.  At that moment, Miroslav Deronjic, chairman of the SDS of

10     Bratunac, Rodoljub Djukanovic, known as Rocko, chairman of the Executive

11     Board of the Bratunac Municipal Assembly, Branimir Tesic known as Baka,

12     deputy commander of the Serbian police station in Bratunac came by."

13             Now, we can see from this statement that the process of boarding

14     women and children on the trucks to be brought outside Bratunac and

15     bringing the men to the Vuk Karadzic school happened at the same time.

16     Now, you said that you might have been present when women and children

17     were boarded on buses.  I'm asking you did you also witness men selected

18     and walked to the close by Vuk Karadzic school?

19        A.   As a said a while ago and as I said in my statement, I may have

20     been near the stadium when the Muslim population were being assembled

21     there.  I didn't specify women or children.  There were men there

22     boarding the buses.  Most probably, again I must point out I don't quite

23     remember, we provided police escort, military police specifically.  We

24     entrusted them with the buses, and they were off to Kladanj.

25             As I said a while ago I was not a deputy head.  I was deputy

Page 35259

 1     commander of the police station.

 2        Q.   So how do you explain the two witnesses saw you there before

 3     being brought to the Vuk Karadzic school?  Both these witnesses we

 4     discussed were then brought to the Vuk Karadzic school, not on a bus or

 5     nowhere else.

 6        A.   As I said, I don't remember.  I don't know that they were taken

 7     there in my presence.  I didn't see that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like to discuss the events of the 9th of

 9     May in Glogova.  You said in your statement at paragraph 25 that you know

10     nothing specific about it.  However, the police was involved, wasn't it,

11     in the operation?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   So this Chamber heard the evidence of Milenko Katanic, and it is

14     his statement at P04374, at paragraph 35, he said -- and Milenko Katanic

15     took part to this operation:

16             "I was asked about the units involved in the operation.  I

17     mentioned Captain Reljic from Novi Sad Corps.  The police, public

18     security station also had their armed forces.  They were also deployed

19     and they all had their assignments."

20             So I'm asking again, the police was indeed involved in the

21     operation?

22        A.   I categorically assert that the police were not involved in this

23     operation.  This witness is not telling the truth.

24        Q.   Very well.  We'll let the Trial Chamber to decide who is telling

25     the truth.  And then the goal of the operation.  You said that the

Page 35260

 1     operation was aimed to -- to take weapons illegally detained.  Now, you

 2     might know that Miroslav Deronjic pled guilty to crimes against humanity

 3     for the killings of 64 Bosnian Muslim civilian in Glogova, the forcible

 4     displacement of the rest of the population, and the destruction of

 5     religious and civilian property in Glogova.  I'm asking you, the

 6     operation was not to disarm the population, was it?

 7        A.   Based on my information, based on what I heard, the objective was

 8     to do something about the communication between Bratunac and

 9     Konjevic Polje, to make it safe.

10        Q.   Now, again, Milenko Katanic in the statement mentioned before at

11     part -- at P4374 at paragraph 38, says:

12             "I've been told that what Deronjic said and pled guilty to, is

13     that the purpose to the Glogova operation was to remove the Muslim

14     population of Glogova from Bratunac municipality."

15             And then he said:

16             "That is the conclusion I myself made after the operation, but

17     that is not something I knew during the operation."

18             So I'm asking you:  Would you agree with Mr. Katanic that the

19     conclusion you should reach today is that the operation was not to disarm

20     or to secure the road, but it was, in fact, to expel the population?

21        A.   No, I wouldn't agree.  Milenko Katanic was a close associate of

22     Miroslav Deronjic, and he was probably in a better position than me to

23     know.  I didn't know.  I wasn't privy to that kind of information, and I

24     was not involved in politics.  I was not even involved in any

25     preparations, actions, or anything at all that took place there at the

Page 35261

 1     time.

 2        Q.   As you said, Milenko Katanic was in a better position than you to

 3     assess.  So you're not willing to change your view today in light of what

 4     a person that was better positioned than you said?

 5        A.   Why would I?  I believed -- what I believed at the time, and I

 6     still believe the same thing:  Milenko Katanic is entitled to his own

 7     views and he may have known better than me.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at paragraph 30 of your statement, you said you

 9     had problems with the volunteers and you describe it further in

10     additional paragraph that were add to your statement.  What you didn't

11     say is that the Serbs' authorities started being concerned with the

12     problem with the volunteers only when they start attacking Serbs' houses.

13     Isn't it true?

14        A.   The Serb authorities were concerned right after certain steps

15     were taken by the volunteers against the Muslim population.  It wasn't

16     just later when they actually started attacking Serb homes.  The

17     municipal authorities reached certain conclusions and took certain

18     decisions to drive out the paramilitary units.  Nevertheless, at the time

19     they did not have sufficient manpower to achieve that and to drive the

20     units out of the Bratunac area.

21             MR. COSTI:  Can we have 65 ter 04695, please.  And page 2 and 3

22     of the English version and page 2 of the B/C/S.

23        Q.   Mr. Tesic, this is a report of a performance inspection that was

24     made on the 22nd and 23rd of August, 1993, at the Bratunac SJB.  They

25     discuss several issues, and if we look at the last paragraph in the

Page 35262

 1     English version of this page, we see there's after all this talk which

 2     were held at Bratunac SJB, we had a meeting with representative of all,

 3     say, the Bratunac Serb authorities, the army, the president of the

 4     municipality, the chairman -- chairman of the SDS, Zoran Tesic on behalf

 5     of the municipality, other representative of the army, the head of the

 6     SJB Luka Bogdanovic, the commander Ljubomir Borovcanin, the deputy chief

 7     Branimir Tesic.  And now probably the translation should have said

 8     "deputy commander," as you specified before.

 9             "Now, during this meeting, the SJB chief gave a short overview,"

10     and I'm reading, "on the activities of the Bratunac SJB from the

11     beginning of the war until today," so August 1992, "saying that four SJB

12     member lost their lives in this war so far, the chief and three service

13     police officers.  He stated further," and this is the relevant part,

14     "that they have problems with different volunteer units on their

15     territory which in the beginning of the war played a role in the war but

16     which later on got mainly involved in robberies and trouble making on the

17     territory of the municipality."

18             Further down on page 2, almost at the bottom, and page 3 of the

19     B/C/S, then there are conclusion by the president of the municipality,

20     Simic.  He talks about problems in the organisation, and then he talks

21     about:

22             "A lot has been done already."

23             And that:

24             "The police should be engaged especially in preventing of further

25     lootings because Serbian houses are now being looted too."

Page 35263

 1             So my understanding of this document is that the Serb authorities

 2     played a role -- sorry, the Serb authorities' view is that the volunteers

 3     played a role at the beginning of the war, but then at one point it was

 4     necessary to take steps, because also Serbian houses were looted.  Is it

 5     correct?

 6        A.   May I just know the date of this meeting?

 7        Q.   I believe it happened between the 22nd and 23rd of August, 1992,

 8     because this is a report of this inspection that took place in these two

 9     days.  So either one of the two.  The report doesn't specify which day.

10        A.   You're asking me about some things that you probably got from

11     Mr. Luka Bogdanovic's contribution.  These are his words.  That was the

12     way he phrased it.  I have no idea about the reason for that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown who

14     authored or produced this report, please.

15             MR. COSTI:  It's on the last page.

16             JUDGE KWON:  But do you agree you were at the meeting, Mr. Tesic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I could agree if that's what

18     the document shows.  I don't particularly remember, and it's very

19     difficult for me to say anything.  I see that the report was submitted by

20     Blagoje Sasa.  I have no idea who that person is, Sasa Blagojevic.

21     Perhaps we could find some information in the header.  Who was this

22     produced by?  A centre, a security centre.  I have no idea who this

23     person is.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Sarajevo CSB.  Shall we show him the first

25     page.

Page 35264

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The header reads:  "The Birac

 2     Romanija Centre," and the police station was formally under that centre.

 3     Nonetheless, I did not know a person named Sasa Blagojevic, which doesn't

 4     mean that there wasn't a person named that around.  Perhaps he was there

 5     and attended the meeting.  I trust the document, but I can't remember the

 6     specific meeting held sometime in August back in 1992.

 7             MR. COSTI:

 8        Q.   Mr. Tesic, was a -- what I'm asking you is whether you agree with

 9     what I said, which is that the volunteers were useful, were used at the

10     beginning -- they had a role at the beginning of the war and that you

11     started being concerned with the lootings only when they start attacking

12     Serbs' houses?

13        A.   They never did us any good, not even back at the outset.  They

14     always stirred trouble.  Therefore, I would not agree with the words

15     stated here by the then commander.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. COSTI:  Can we go now to the paragraph 10 of the same

18     document, which is at page 4 of the English version and page -- sorry.

19     My mistake.  Not paragraph 10 but is page 2 of the English version and

20     B/C/S page 1, at the bottom.  And -- exactly.  That's the paragraph I'm

21     interested for the English.  The one that begin -- there's a paragraph at

22     the beginning that talks about investigation of war crimes and should be

23     the last paragraph of the B/C/S version.

24        Q.   And the English version says:

25             "In proving of war crimes and identifying of war criminals, the

Page 35265

 1     Bratunac SJB had achieved significant results using all available means

 2     and all operative knowledge based on which they created a photo and video

 3     documentation of the victims of the genocide while they are compiling a

 4     list of perpetrators of Muslim nationality who carried out the genocide

 5     against the Serbian nation based on the civil records, that is to say

 6     personal IDs, which they have been able to keep in safe custody of the

 7     SJB."

 8             Now, as head commander of the Bratunac SJB, isn't it true that

 9     you achieved significant result investigating war crimes by the Muslims,

10     but I don't see mention of any investigation on possible war crimes

11     committed by the Serbs, for example, at the Vuk Karadzic school, just two

12     or three months before?  Isn't it true that the document doesn't mention

13     any investigation of Serb crimes, war crimes?

14        A.   As for any war crimes investigations conducted by the then public

15     security station in Bratunac, this was something that was down to the

16     crime police, the inspectors working there, in co-operation with the

17     people from the Birac Romanija region while I was the deputy commander.

18     This wasn't my job.  And whatever they eventually achieved was not

19     available to me.  They submitted reports only to the chief of what used

20     to be the centre.

21        Q.   So you don't recall any investigation on war crimes potentially

22     committed by the Serb authorities?

23        A.   I didn't really go into investigations conducted by different

24     service, that of the centre or that of the public security station.

25     Again, I was deputy commander, and I was working at a police station.  I

Page 35266

 1     had no jurisdiction at all over the work of the crime police at the

 2     Bratunac public security station or indeed the public security centre

 3     police.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. COSTI:  Can we have in document admitted, Your Honour?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6196.

 8             MR. COSTI:  Now, can I have 65 ter 18496.  And here it's e-court

 9     page 4 for the English and 3 for the B/C/S.

10        Q.   Now, this is another report of a similar inspection, this time in

11     September 1992, and paragraph 10 at page 4 of the English says again:

12             "As for the documenting of war crimes against the Serbian people

13     committed by Muslim extremists, 46 cases were documented."

14             So again, no mention of any investigation on possible war crimes

15     committed by the Serb authorities, again like at the Vuk Karadzic school

16     or Glogova, nothing like that; right?

17        A.   Again you talk about the Serb authorities committing crimes.

18     This is not something that I'm aware of.

19        Q.   Very well.

20        A.   This report is probably accurate, and it was probably put

21     together by a control team that visited the Bratunac Public Security

22     Station, but I would like to know who signed it, who produced it, and

23     when exactly that occurred.

24        Q.   Yes, signed by the inspector for police duties and tasks and

25     reported, and again -- reported again as the one we saw before to

Page 35267

 1     Sarajevo Romanija.

 2             Now, if we could now look at paragraph 6 of this report.

 3             MR. COSTI:  And it's e-court page 3 for both English and B/C/S.

 4        Q.   It says:

 5             "The paramilitary formation in the area of Bratunac SJB from

 6     among the civilian berets, 50 men in total, of which 30 are locals,

 7     whereas 20 of them are from the Republic of Serbia, the public security

 8     station is engaged with its own forces and with assistance of the

 9     military and the civilian authorities in the dispersal of such formation

10     in order to put them under the command of the armed forces of

11     Republika Srpska."

12             So if I'm not wrong, far from investigating crime possibly

13     committed by these formations, you were actually busy to try to put them

14     under the control of the VRS; is it correct?

15        A.   This is an entirely different paramilitary unit who you're

16     talking about here at paragraph 6.  We are looking at a unit here which

17     arrived in the area I think back in 1993.  The unit was led --

18        Q.   The document is from 1992, so we are not talking about a unit

19     that entered in the area one year later the report -- after the report.

20        A.   The one thing that's confusing me is it reads here that the unit

21     numbered 20 men from the RS and about 30 locals, and the only unit I know

22     of that was around which corresponds with this description was in 1993

23     and it was led by an officer from Serbia, actually from Montenegro,

24     Vasilije Mijovic, who brought over a number of men from Serbia and put

25     together about 30 locals and then performed some specialised training

Page 35268

 1     with these men.

 2        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt.  We have very little time.  My question

 3     wasn't who are these men but whether no steps was taken to investigate

 4     these people.  Rather, the point was to take them under control without

 5     any investigation as whether war crimes were committed.  These units that

 6     you said you tried to ...

 7        A.   In paragraph 6 we're not talking about paramilitary units that

 8     committed crimes early in 1992.  We're talking about an entirely

 9     paramilitary unit here.  We did run into trouble with this one as well.

10     This particular paramilitary unit attacked a police station and wounded

11     one of our police officers.  Members of this paramilitary unit were

12     terrorising ethnic Serbs as well.  Well-regarded citizens of Bratunac who

13     were being brought in on account of allegedly committing crimes.  They

14     would interrogate them, beat them up, take them off somewhere to Serbia

15     and lock them up there.  The Bratunac police station actually had an

16     armed clash with these units.  One of our police officers was even

17     wounded during that clash.  And then the RS authorities somehow managed

18     to get these men out of Bratunac municipality.

19             MR. COSTI:  Can I admit this document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6197, Your Honours.

22             MR. COSTI:

23        Q.   Let me now briefly move back in 1995, July 1995.  Paragraph 36 of

24     your statement you said you went to Potocari after the fall of

25     Srebrenica, and you went with a policeman called Dragan Neskovic.  In

Page 35269

 1     Potocari, you witnessed a woman and children being loaded onto the buses.

 2     Is it correct?

 3        A.   It is correct that I went there with this police officer

 4     Dragan Neskovic, but I did not see any women or children there.  There

 5     were elderly persons being loaded onto buses there and able-bodied men,

 6     but I only caught the very start of this process of people being loaded

 7     on the buses.  I was only there for a very brief while for certain

 8     reasons which I will not go into now.

 9        Q.   We know the reason.  Let me now -- this is not what you actually

10     said in your interview with the Prosecutor at the state court of

11     Bosnia-Hercegovina.  What you said is that:

12             "The first time I saw people, women and children, getting onto

13     the buses was in Potocari."

14             So you did see not just elderly men but also women and children

15     being loaded on the buses, didn't you?

16        A.   I can assert now that I'm certain that I saw elderly men and

17     able-bodied men boarding the buses, but that was at the very start, the

18     early stage, the first couple of buses.  I stayed no more than half an

19     hour in Potocari before I went back to the station, which was in the

20     first day when the Muslim population reached Potocari.

21        Q.   Now, people were asking for help, didn't they?

22        A.   What people do you mean?

23        Q.   People that were pushed and loaded on the buses.  Prisoners -- I

24     mean, sorry, refugees in Potocari.

25        A.   I didn't hear anyone asking for help because I was there at the

Page 35270

 1     very start, and I didn't see that anyone was pushing anyone onto the

 2     buses.

 3        Q.   Let me read you what Dragan Neskovic, the policeman you went

 4     with, testified in the Popovic case on the 28th of October, 2008, at

 5     transcript 27431.

 6             "I probably would have stayed longer, but many people knew me.

 7     They were calling my name.  I couldn't bear that.  I could not help

 8     everybody.  I could not even maybe help the two that I was looking for.

 9     It would have been hard to do.  It was war.  So I returned, and Tesic

10     stayed behind."

11             Now, Neskovic returned to Bratunac because he could not bear the

12     fact that people were asking for help.  But you don't recall anyone

13     begging for help, although you stayed behind.  Is this your testimony?

14        A.   No.  I arrived there with Neskovic, and I went back to the police

15     station with Neskovic.  Now, when we arrived at Potocari, he went one way

16     and I went another way.  We went through the mass of people there and

17     probably Neskovic was better known by those people than I was because he

18     was older than I was and he had worked there longer in that service, and

19     these were all people from the Srebrenica municipality who didn't really

20     know me too well.  So when I went and walked amongst those people, I

21     questioned them.  I asked them a bit about what was going on there, and

22     he wasn't there, but we returned -- I returned to the police station with

23     Neskovic in the same police car.

24             MR. COSTI:  I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.


Page 35271

 1             Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Thank you.

 3     I hope I will be brief and complete this soon.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tesic, where do you live now?

 6        A.   Now as 20 and something years before, I lived in -- I live in

 7     Ljubovija.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Would you tell the Trial Chamber how far Ljubovija is

 9     from Bratunac as the crow flies and also if you go by road.

10        A.   Well, if you take the road it's about 7 to 8 kilometres, but as

11     the crow flies it's about 3 kilometres perhaps.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Where did you spend your time when you were not on

13     duty, and where did you spend your nights?

14        A.   Whenever I wasn't on duty I was at home in Ljubovija.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could we see -- or, rather, on page 52 the Prosecutor

16     was trying to establish when exactly you arrived there and what you saw.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 24757, please.  That

18     is a statement that -- I believe page 10 in the Serbian language and

19     pages 8 and 9 in the English.  But it's sufficient to have the Serbian

20     version on the screen.  As for the other participants here, they can

21     follow it on page 8 and 9.  It doesn't have to be broadcast, I mean.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I think we have a redacted version, and we'll

23     broadcast it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you just zoom in a bit.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 35272

 1        Q.   You said that you didn't see people being separated; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Let's see what we can read here.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in a bit.

 5     This is really not -- it's a bit difficult to read this.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Once the separation was complete, they were lined up in fours,

 8     and at the -- at that point in time, Deronjic, Djukanovic, and Tesic

 9     arrived, and they -- towards the end of the column.

10             Now, is this consistent with what you know, that actually you

11     arrived there once the separation had already been complete?

12        A.   Well, I've already said before that it is possible that I was

13     near the stadium, in the vicinity somewhere, when the Muslim

14     population -- when the Muslim civilians were entering the buses to be

15     transported, but I can't really recall the details.  We probably provide

16     the military -- police escort to assist the -- in the transport of these

17     men towards Kladanj.

18        Q.   Thank you.  The point that I'm trying to ask you about is this:

19     The Prosecutor showed you this statement trying to show, to prove that

20     you were there while the separation was going on and that you saw it, but

21     here in the statement it says that you arrived there after the separation

22     was already done.  So which is true, what you've said and what we see or

23     what the Prosecutor claimed?

24        A.   Well, I have to say again I did not see anyone being separated at

25     that time, nor did I see anyone already having been separated.

Page 35273

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Although the witness has answered it, the question

 3     was very much leading.  Let's proceed.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I was just trying to

 5     make a point to show, namely, that the statement doesn't really differ

 6     from this witness is saying.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Now, on page 54, from lines 15 and on, there is talk about

 9     various militaries.  Now, first let me ask you a general question.  What

10     was the position of the authorities towards the various military groups,

11     and has it changed and at what point?

12        A.   Well, the authorities were never quite receptive of the

13     paramilitary units.  As I've said before, they took the decision not at

14     the time where we saw that document in August or September.  Decisions to

15     that effect were taken much earlier, in April or May.  The authorities'

16     position was that paramilitary formations and units should be expelled.

17     However, these paramilitary units had the support of the population.

18     There was a large rally of citizens from Bratunac and refugees from

19     Srebrenica, Serbs, because all the villages around Srebrenica had been

20     torched and destroyed.

21             So these people rallied there outside the municipal building and

22     they did not allow -- or, rather, they expressed their support of the

23     paramilitary units.  So most of these people were refugees from these

24     villages that had been at that time in May and June already torched and

25     people expelled from them by Muslim extremists.

Page 35274

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 747, 65 ter 747 in

 3     e-court.  Could we also see English, because it's more legible.  Could we

 4     see the last -- the next page, please -- rather, the next two pages.

 5     This is just the cover page.  Page 3, please.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 7        Q.   The Serbian version is rather difficult to read out, so I will

 8     read it out in English.

 9             "[In English] Serbian Republic of BH, SAO of Birac, Bratunac

10     municipality Crisis Staff, Bratunac, 6th of May, 1992.

11             "On the basis of the Decision of the National Security Council of

12     the Serbian Republic of BH and pursuant to the SAO Birac Crisis Staff

13     Decision and the Decision of the commissioner of the government of the

14     Serbian Republic of BH for the Birac area, the Bratunac municipality

15     Crisis Staff hereby takes the following decision:  All paramilitary

16     formations should leave the territory of Bratunac by 1600 hours on 7th of

17     May 1992.

18             "The Decision was taken unanimously.

19             "If the paramilitary formations fail to act on the Decision,

20     legal military formations will be ordered to implement it."

21             [Interpretation] How does this tally with what you knew about the

22     position that the authorities took vis-a-vis the paramilitary units?

23        A.   Well, here we can see that the municipal authorities adopted this

24     kind of decision already in early May.  In other words, paramilitary

25     formations were never well received as far as the authorities and the

Page 35275

 1     police were concerned.  However, there you had it.  These crimes had

 2     occurred in the area of the Srebrenica municipality in Serbs villages,

 3     but also in Serb villages in the Bratunac municipality where hundreds and

 4     thousands of citizens had moved in order -- because their villages -- had

 5     moved to because their villages had been torched and destroyed.  And they

 6     supported these are paramilitary formations which, of course, was wrong.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber needs to rise at the moment.  We'll take

 8     a break.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

10     document, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll discuss it after the break.  We'll resume at

12     quarter past 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

17     would like to tender this document into evidence, please.

18             MR. COSTI:  No objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3116, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could would now take a

22     look at 00748 on the 65 ter list.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Tesic, the document of the 6th of May that we just saw a

25     moment ago, it was obviously put out before -- or, rather, let me put it

Page 35276

 1     this way:  When did Judge Zekic die?  When was he killed?

 2        A.   Mr. Goran Zekic was killed on the 7th of May, 1992.  On his way

 3     back from Srebrenica to Bratunac he was taking a roundabout way and this

 4     was close to Zalazje.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Was he killed in fighting or was he a civilian?

 6        A.   No, he wasn't killed in combat.  He was a civilian.  He was

 7     deputy in the pre-war BH Assembly, and after the war that was the Serbian

 8     Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He was in a civilian vehicle, and an

 9     acquaintance of his, Delivoje Sorak, was also in the car with him.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Where was he a judge?

11        A.   He was a judge in the then Lower Court in Srebrenica.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13        A.   Well, thank you.  I think -- I thought he might have been the

14     president of the court as well, but I'm not sure.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have page 3, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you recognise the signature that you see now?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Whose signature is it?

21        A.   This is the signature of Zoran Tesic.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to tell you this, although it's more

23     legible in English.  On the 1st of May, there is a reference to a

24     decision by the National Security Council of the Serbian Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Birac Crisis Staff, and it says that an order

Page 35277

 1     is being issued forbidding all paramilitary formations and illegal

 2     citizens to operate in the territory of Bratunac municipality.  So an

 3     order forbidding all paramilitary formations and illegal citizens to

 4     operate in the territory of Bratunac municipality.  All paramilitary

 5     formations and illegal citizens as well as all groups that have come in

 6     from outside are hereby forbidden to operate in the territory of the

 7     municipality.  The only authorised units that can operate in military

 8     terms are in the territory of -- in other words, only JNA, Yugoslav

 9     People's Army units, and TO defence units of the Serbian Republic have

10     the right to deal with military issues and performing duties in the state

11     of war that has been declared in the territory of Bratunac municipality.

12             Now, have you received this order?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter requests that the witness

14     repeat his answer.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Tesic.

16     Interpreters couldn't hear that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that the police

18     station ever received this order -- or, rather, the public security

19     station in Bratunac.  I can't see -- because I see here that it says

20     inform the TO -- the TO headquarters and the Bratunac Public Security

21     Station of this order, but I don't see that it was actually forwarded to

22     the public security station in Bratunac.

23        Q.   Thank you.  But were you aware, did you know that this was the

24     position of the authorities vis-a-vis paramilitary units even before

25     the -- they began mistreating Serbs?

Page 35278

 1        A.   Yes, I did know of this position and decisions to that effect

 2     that were taken by the Crisis Staff in Bratunac.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I -- I would like to tender

 5     this into evidence, please.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3117, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now briefly

 9     take a look at P1696.  That was a document that was just admitted into

10     evidence a few minutes ago.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   How often did these inspections visit you at the public security

13     station?  How often did they go there?

14        A.   Well, you couldn't really say that they came often.  Based on the

15     reports you can conclude that this was probably quarterly, on a quarterly

16     basis, every two or three months, or, rather, when there was a problem,

17     then they would come.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe this is not the same

19     document, 04695 on the 65 ter list, and the P, that was 6196.  6196, not

20     16.  Yes.  Very well.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Now, in this report we see that it was of the 27th of August, and

23     it says in line 5 or 6 that there is no crime scene technician.  Now, did

24     you have a crime scene technician at the time?

25        A.   At the time -- let me just try and -- and remember that.  I'm

Page 35279

 1     sorry.  I need to jog my memory.  No, we didn't.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, please look at the third bullet.  When examining

 3     the documents of the crime service at this public security station, I

 4     established that there is a lot of documented information on perpetrators

 5     of crimes.

 6             Did you collect documents only -- gather information only on

 7     Muslim perpetrators or how did you do that work?

 8        A.   Well, as I've said a few moments ago answering Mr. Prosecutor's

 9     questions, the job of documenting crimes, war crimes, was done by members

10     of the crime prevention service in co-operation with the crime prevention

11     service of the public security centre of the Birac-Romanija area.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But you may be aware of this.  It says here that the

13     authorities were not -- had not yet been -- the judicial organs have not

14     yet been established, so they're transferred to the Lower Court in

15     Zvornik.  So are you aware of this?

16        A.   Well, there was never a judicial organ in Bratunac, not during

17     the war.  The competent court was the Lower Court in Zvornik.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could we see the third page, please.  It says at the

19     top the commander of the police station then took the floor and he

20     proposed that meetings should be held every day at this level, and also

21     in order to resolve the problem of volunteers he proposed that all

22     persons who were illegally in the territory of the Republika Srpska

23     should be expelled and that lists of such persons should be compiled so

24     that they would be forbidden and prevented from coming into Bratunac.

25     Were you aware of this position?

Page 35280

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And a little lower it says the president of the municipality,

 3     Ljubisav Simic, pointed out that there were numerous problems in

 4     organising all three levels of authorities in this area saying in the

 5     process that there were even members of the public security service who

 6     engaged in illicit acts and he asked that they be purged, and he also

 7     acknowledged that already a lot had been done in that area.

 8             Now, were you aware that there was this purge on -- going on

 9     within the security service organs and that this was the position of the

10     municipal authorities?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. COSTI:  Your Honour, I would object this line of questioning

13     which seems to me leading.

14             JUDGE KWON:  It's very difficult to intervene when there's no

15     pause at all.  The witness has answered the question, but bear that in

16     mind, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Tesic, let me rephrase that.  Was this position by the

20     president of the municipality, Mr. Simic, implemented?

21        A.   Well, yes, it was implemented even from before.  In the month of

22     June there was a purge at the police station in Bratunac, and at that

23     point the number of police officers was reduced, those who breached the

24     discipline in any manner or committed some disciplinary infraction.  Such

25     policemen were dismissed.  And we also reduced the number of police

Page 35281

 1     officers for the need of the Bratunac Battalion that existed at the time,

 2     and we sent some policemen at the request of the army to the ranks of the

 3     army.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what was the situation with the communications

 5     at the time, and how was communication conducted with higher authorities,

 6     superior authorities?

 7        A.   Well, we did not always have telephone lines available.  They

 8     weren't always functioning.  So I think we used the military system, the

 9     military signal system, in order to be in touch with the Serb -- with

10     Serbia, although we did use the radio station for some major issues.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tesic, would you put a pause before you start

12     answering the question.

13             And, Mr. Karadzic, how does this arise from the cross-examination

14     at all?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document was put to the

16     witness, and it was proposed by the Prosecution with this witness, and of

17     course the Prosecutor selected the portions that he asked the witness

18     about, but there is a lot more that was not explored.  It was very

19     selective.

20             Now, on the first page in the third paragraph it says that all

21     the communications are down and they were requesting that some form of

22     communication be established.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it does not mean that it opened every

24     issue, but how is it relevant to the issue that you would like to raise

25     or that was raised by Mr. Costi?

Page 35282

 1             Yes, Mr. Costi, you would like to add anything?

 2             MR. COSTI:  Not really, Your Honours.  The point was exactly the

 3     same.  I mean, even if the document covers other issue, that doesn't open

 4     the door to touch it if it weren't discussed in cross.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, may I just point out that when

 7     document is admitted, you're admitting it for all purposes, so it seems

 8     logical that we would have a chance to explore areas in that document

 9     regardless of whether it arose from the cross-examination.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is split, but the Chamber orders the

12     accused to move on, Judge Baird dissenting, but my point is that there is

13     no need to cover this issue repeatedly.  Move on, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It would be much easier

15     for the Defence if we knew the Chamber's position so we could reduce the

16     Defence.

17             Could we please see P1697.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, not 16 but 61.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 6197.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   How many police officers did you have?  A couple of minutes ago

22     you said that you gave them all to the army.  So how many did you have,

23     and was the number sufficient for keeping law and order?

24        A.   Once we had ceded a number of officers to the army, we were left

25     with 20 something.

Page 35283

 1        Q.   Thank you.  This audit was done ten days after the previous one,

 2     and it says under item 1 that the station has a total of 24 police

 3     officers.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat his last

 5     sentence.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you repeat your question, the

 7     last part of your question, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   In the last paragraph we read that they only had a fix --

10     fixed HF radio station for communication, and for telephones they only

11     had local phones.  Now, how does that tally with what Mr. Tesic is

12     claiming?

13        A.   Yes, this is correct.  We only had local communications,

14     communication lines, and the police had a couple of hand-held radio

15     stations.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Costi.

17             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think that's the same

18     issue.  Unless -- unless he's linking the passage he's reading to

19     something that arise from cross-examination, then that will be fine, but

20     this seems to be purely question about communication system that are not

21     related not only to my cross but to his testimony itself.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  You know the ruling.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Your Excellency, but if

24     this police station is expected to control an area and inform the higher

25     ranking bodies, we must establish whether that was possible.

Page 35284

 1             MR. COSTI:  I'm sorry again, but of course this wasn't an issue

 2     in my cross whether they could actually perform investigation or whether

 3     they could communicate the result to higher-rank level.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we move on, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next page, please.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This was covered in the cross-examination.  Did you document and

 8     file criminal charges, and was a distinction made based on ethnic

 9     affiliation?

10        A.   Criminal reports were filed.  There was no distinction made based

11     on ethnic affiliation at the time when the station had been established

12     and when we started functioning.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 44, second subparagraph, we say -- we

14     read that the police officers in the previous period have submitted 30

15     official notes that point to the existence of criminal -- criminal

16     offences.  Which service was in charge of that?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

18             MR. COSTI:  Just one little point.  The -- I never touched upon

19     the issue of common crimes.  I was talking about war crimes.  So I don't

20     know whether this arose and whether it is relevant at all.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Well, it's a bit difficult to exclude the relevance

22     of any criminal investigation.  Let's continue.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Please finish your answer.  Who did this, and then I will have no

25     further questions.  What does this phrase "police officers" mean?


Page 35285

 1        A.    "Police officers," this phrase refers to uniformed police

 2     officers of the Bratunac station, and in their work in the field they

 3     obtained operative intelligence, and based on that they drafted their

 4     official notes.  These are submitted to the commander of the police

 5     station of Bratunac who then forwards it to the chief -- or, rather,

 6     informs the chief, and these notes are forwarded to the crime

 7     investigation service, and if they think it is of interest to the police

 8     station of Bratunac, then they inform them, but if it's about a criminal

 9     offence with a more serious sentence, then it is also forwarded to the

10     CJB or the ministry.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Another question, Mr. Tesic.  Did the Bratunac

12     authorities take part in or contribute to the commission of war crimes

13     such as the persecution of the Muslim population?

14        A.   As far as I know, they did not.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for coming to testify.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for calling me,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I have a question directed to the parties rather

19     than to the witness, but I will do it while he's here.  Shall we upload

20     Exhibit D1 -- I'm sorry, Exhibit D3117.  That's a report, a decision of

21     Bratunac Crisis Staff, probably page 3 in English.  Yes.  It reads:

22             "On the basis of the decision of the National Security Council of

23     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on declaring an imminent

24     threat of war and pursuant to the SAO Birac Crisis Staff Decision on

25     declaring a state of emergency ..."

Page 35286

 1             And we also so similar phrases from the witness statement of

 2     previous one, Mr. Ceklic, paragraph 19 and 28, where he referred to the

 3     declaration of imminent threat of war and declaration of war -- or state

 4     of war in Ilidza municipality.  So my question for the parties,

 5     Mr. Tieger or Mr. Karadzic, do we have any documentary evidence of a

 6     municipality declaring a state of war or imminent threat of war and

 7     whether it was for the municipality or the central government, i.e., to

 8     declare such things?  Or if Mr. Tesic is capable of assisting us, could

 9     you tell us if you could?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think I can help you with

11     that.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Excellency.  We have

13     seen the Law on All People's Defence and social self-protection.  The

14     municipality has the same powers in the area of all people's defence as

15     the state.  The president of the municipality is the Supreme Commander,

16     and they have the right and the duty to make their own assessment when

17     there's a threat.  We later changed that, but it was taken over from

18     Tito's time.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So -- yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  To the best of my recollection, Mr. President, I

21     don't think we'll -- we have seen any references to the declaration of a

22     state of war in a municipality prior to the decision referred to at the

23     republic level in mid-April, and I similarly don't recall indications of

24     the existence of state of imminent threat of war in a municipality that

25     does not reference the republic-level decision, but that at the moment is

Page 35287

 1     based on my immediate recollection.  We'll keep an eye on it with the

 2     Court's inquiry in mind.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If the parties could provide the Chamber

 4     with references later on if they could.

 5             Very well.  Mr. Tesic, that concludes your evidence, and on

 6     behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague

 7     to give it.  Now you're free to go.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're bringing in the next

11     witness, just to -- with respect to this next witness, this is actually a

12     case where in fact the witness is testifying before the 48-hour period

13     expires.  I think perhaps the Chamber had this witness in mind instead of

14     the previous one when it indicated that it was considering some

15     paragraphs had to be led live.  So we would hope that the same ruling

16     would apply and that the four paragraphs in this statement could also be

17     accepted without having been led live.

18             The reason why the witness is testifying a little earlier than

19     expected is because our expert witness, Dr. Pasalic, was sick, and he had

20     to delay his arrival in The Hague by two days, and so instead of -- he

21     arrived -- he was proofed yesterday.  Instead of having him testify

22     today, we moved this witness up in the order.  So we apologise if it's an

23     inconvenience to anyone and we hope that we'll be able to lead his

24     evidence under Rule 92 ter.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

Page 35288

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would leave it with Your Honours.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  On an exceptional basis, yes.  But please bear that

 4     in mind.  This will not be repeated.

 5             Were some paragraphs redacted from this witness's statement,

 6     Mr. Robinson?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We've agreed to redact

 8     paragraphs 8 and 9 of the witness's statement, and we won't be offering

 9     the associated exhibit that was referenced in paragraph 8.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tesic.  Please be seated and make yourself

15     comfortable.

16                           WITNESS:  ALEKSANDAR TESIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think we are having two Mr. Tesics on the same day

19     from Bratunac, Mr. Tesic.

20             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Tesic, I must draw your

21     attention to a particular Rule that we have here at the International

22     Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E) of Rules of Evidence and Procedure.  Under

23     this Rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic,

24     the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer

25     might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this context,


Page 35289

 1     "incriminate" means saying something at that might amount to an admission

 2     of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might provide

 3     evidence you might have committed a criminal offence.  However, should

 4     you think that your answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you

 5     refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that Tribunal has the

 6     power to compel you to answer the question, but in that situation, the

 7     Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances

 8     would not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any

 9     offence save and except for the offence of giving false testimony.

10             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Tesic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Tesic.

16        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

17        Q.   I will ask you to pause between question and answer, and we

18     should both speak slowly for everything to be recorded.

19             Did you give a statement to the Defence team?

20        A.   I did.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D7195.  Could

23     we zoom in on the Serbian version.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you see that statement in front of you?

Page 35290

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read and sign that statement?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us show the witness the last

 6     page for him to identify the signature.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Is this your signature?

 9        A.   It is.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said

11     to the Defence team?

12        A.   It does.

13        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask the same questions to you live

14     today, would your answers to those questions be essentially the same as

15     the ones in the statement?

16        A.   Yes.  In -- in general terms, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I seek to tender

19     this statement under Rule 92 ter, and I will have another document that I

20     will lead after dealing with the summary.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Nicholls?

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  No.  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3118, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 35291

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read out a

 2     short summary of Mr. Aleksandar Tesic's summary in English.

 3             [In English] Aleksandar Tesic was born on 23rd of January, 1954,

 4     in Bratunac BH.  He lives in Ljubovija, Serbia.  He was the secretary of

 5     the municipal Secretariat for National Defence in Bratunac.

 6             On one occasion a small unit of military police attempted to

 7     remove mobilisation records from the municipal building in Bratunac.  A

 8     large group of Muslims gathered in front of the municipality building and

 9     more kept coming.  Aleksandar Tesic, who was employed in national defence

10     municipal secretariat, was asked to assist with the removal and believed

11     that the SDA Muslim party was behind this gathering.  The Muslims swore

12     and hurled insulted at the army and Serbs and tried to confront

13     physically the military police unit which had to fire into the air at one

14     point.  The police and military units were greatly outnumbered by the

15     Muslims, and it was very likely that they would be physically attacked.

16     Then the Serbs began to gather with the intention of protecting the

17     police and the members of the JNA.  Fortunately, in the end large

18     conflicts were avoided.

19             Regarding to the volunteers, Mr. Tesic said that they formed

20     their open unit instead of referring to the police.  They were hard to

21     control, having lots of problems such as looting and being drunk often.

22     They even attacked the police station.

23             At a meeting of the Crisis Staff, Aleksandar Tesic learned that

24     some volunteers took some Muslims to the Vuk Karadzic primary school.  He

25     said that what happened were -- there was a shock to them, and they all

Page 35292

 1     condemned it.  After this, the Crisis Staff decided to disarm these

 2     volunteers and to expel them from Bratunac.  One night the Crisis Staff

 3     decided to transport all the Muslims who were in the school because it

 4     was the only way to prevent an even worse disaster.

 5             On 9th of May, 1992, in order to prevent conflicts in Glogova, an

 6     operation to disarm the citizens were planned to be carried out.  Later

 7     on, Aleksandar Tesic heard that some people were killed or you wounded.

 8     He mentioned that the atmosphere was charged with the previous night due

 9     to the killing of a judge -- of the judge Goran Zekic, a member of

10     parliament who was killed by the Muslims in Srebrenica.

11             He was told about the Muslim attack on the JNA convoy in Hranca

12     on 2nd of May, 1992, and which had resulted in casualties.

13             On one occasion he discovered the bodies of around 20 Muslims in

14     the hangar.  Later the bodies were buried, and he believed that the

15     funeral of the dead Muslims were performed in accordance with the Geneva

16     Conventions.

17             He believed that the volunteers whom no one could control were

18     responsible for the killing of the Muslims in Bratunac and Glogova.

19             When General Mladic asked him about what to do to the people --

20     with the people in 1995, he assumed was referring to the Muslims in

21     Srebrenica.  He said that transport should be provided for those who

22     wanted to leave.  On 13th or 14th of July, 1995, he saw several buses

23     loaded with Muslims in Bratunac.  He did not hear the soldiers had abused

24     anyone because no soldiers were in the city, nor did he hear anyone was

25     killed.  Few days later, he learned that from Ljupko Ilic that there were

Page 35293

 1     some Muslims corpse in the Vuk Karadzic primary school.

 2             He said that during the meetings of the Crisis Staff, he never

 3     heard President Radovan Karadzic issue any orders in connection with the

 4     persecution, imprisonment, or killing of the Muslims.  Instead, the

 5     president always emphasised that they must adhere to the Geneva

 6     Conventions in relation to the Muslims and civilians.  He thought that

 7     President Karadzic could not have known a single incident that took place

 8     in Bratunac during the war due to the lack of communications.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And now, Mr. Tesic, I would like to ask you a question about

11     something that you state is your recollection of my stay in Bratunac.

12     You talk about that in paragraph 43.  What is your recollection?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, I have to make one objection to the

15     summary.  Lines 14 on page 85:

16             "He thought that President Karadzic could not have," there's a

17     typo there, "heard of a single incident that took place in Bratunac

18     during the war."

19             That very strong statement was in a prior version of the

20     witness's statement which was altered.  So that summary does not now

21     correctly reflect the last sentence of paragraph 42 which is what I think

22     it goes to.  So for the record, that is not in the witness statement.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, the wording here is

24     slightly different in that statement.  It was probably an earlier

25     summary.

Page 35294

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We just noted that.  As you know, your summary is

 2     not part of evidence, but please shall cautious in producing the summary.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you remember the question, or perhaps I should remind you.

 6     You describe your recollection of my visit when the convoy was stopped at

 7     Srebrenica.

 8        A.   Yes, I do remember that.  It was late in 1992.  There was a

 9     humanitarian convoy carrying food for Srebrenica.  At the entry point to

10     Bratunac, some grieving mothers stopped the convoy.  Their close

11     relatives had been killed in the fighting the previous summer, in autumn,

12     and their villages had been burnt down.  They stopped the convoy because

13     they believed that the convoy would be benefiting their enemy, and they

14     did not allow the convoy to go through.  Nonetheless, President Karadzic

15     had been informed by someone about this, so he travels to Bratunac.

16             He addressed the people assembled there from the balcony of a

17     building in Bratunac housing the Red Cross, saying that the civilians on

18     the other side were not responsible for the crimes committed by their

19     leaders and army, the Muslim army.  He gave a speech about the role and

20     importance of the Red Cross, saying that throughout its history, the Serb

21     people have always complied with humanitarian law and the rights of their

22     enemies, citing some examples from the Serb Bulgarian war in the late

23     19th century.

24             This produced a result, meaning the convoy was allowed to get

25     through carrying all of the goods that were en route for Srebrenica.

Page 35295

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  What was the reaction of the assembled

 2     people to my words?

 3        A.   People accepted, although with some difficulty and reluctance,

 4     what you said during that speech and as a result allowed the convoy

 5     through.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  What was the position take by the local

 7     authorities about the situation in which the convoy was stopped?  Did

 8     they have a part in that?

 9        A.   Well, I can't specifically remember or indeed know what position

10     was taken by each and every one of the people involved, but I don't think

11     anyone stood up to oppose the president's decision.

12        Q.   Thank you.  65 ter 101189, please.  That's my next document.

13     Thank you.  01189, please.

14             Are you familiar with this journal called "Nasa Rijec" and can

15     you tell me exactly what it is?

16        A.   Yes, "Nasa Rijec" was a local newspaper in Bratunac.  It mostly

17     covered developments in the Podrinje area.

18        Q.   Thank you.  There is this piece called: "We are Building our own

19     State."  Is that article in reference to my visit that you describe in

20     your statement?

21        A.   Believe me, I don't know, nor indeed can I read what it says

22     because the print is very, very small.

23        Q.   Perhaps we can zoom in on the upper right corner of the Serbian

24     text.

25        A.   That will do, thank you.

Page 35296

 1        Q.   Let me ask you the following question:  Towards the end of

 2     paragraph 2, is this a faithful reflection of my words:

 3             "We are building our own state, and we need to use our own

 4     behaviour to show the world that we deserve one.  The best way for us to

 5     do this will be to show our enemies that we are not building our state by

 6     using our hatred towards them, because this is not in the spirit of the

 7     Serb people."

 8        A.   Yes, I understand fully what you mean.  These are indeed your

 9     words.  You often used these words in your speeches.  I see the initials

10     of the person who wrote this piece.  It's probably Milan Jovanovic who

11     was the editor-in-chief of the newspaper at the time.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  Next paragraph.

13             "In front of an assembled crowd of citizens with mostly mothers,

14     children, and fighters who had been killed there, as well as refugees

15     from other areas..."

16             When you previously talked about grieving mothers, are these the

17     persons that you had in mind?

18        A.   Yes, the grieving mothers, the mothers of fighters who were

19     killed and civilians who were killed, or perhaps also refugees.  One

20     thing that applied to all the Serb villages in Srebrenica municipality

21     is -- Srebrenica municipality is that they were all set fire to, and the

22     refugees were now in the Bratunac area where they were received.  1992 in

23     particular, the fighting took a heavy toll.  From the month of May, this

24     situation went on through the summer and spilled over into 1993, late

25     January, to be more specific.

Page 35297

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  Towards the end of paragraph 1 it reads:

 2             "Karadzic told the assembled people that they should allow the

 3     convoy carrying humanitarian aid for Srebrenica's population through,"

 4     and then they quote the example of the Serb-Bulgarian war.

 5             And the last thing it says:

 6             "When leaving the municipality, Karadzic met with the

 7     representatives of the convoy."

 8             Is this consistent with what you happened to know about my

 9     positions, those publicly expressed, and my positions on issues regarding

10     humanitarian aid generally speaking?

11        A.   Yes, it is perfectly consistent with that.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this,

14     please.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3119, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Excellency, at

18     this point in time I have no further questions of Mr. Tesic.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I have one issue that you would like to take up.

20     Oh, fine, yes.  That's fine.

21             Mr. Tesic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this case

22     in most part has been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony,

23     and now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of

24     the Prosecutor.

25             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.


Page 35298

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   It's not your first time in the Tribunal; correct?  You testified

 6     here as a Defence witness in the Blagojevic case?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.  April 2004.

 8        Q.   And told the truth in that testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  I want to first ask you a little bit about your job

11     during the wartime.  You worked in civilian protection, which is part of

12     the -- under the Ministry of Defence; correct?

13        A.   I was not with civilian protection.  Before the war from, the 1st

14     of March, 1981, on, I worked with the secretariat for People's Defence in

15     Bratunac in the service for observation, reporting information and early

16     warning, command signals, and encryption, and then in 1992 specifically

17     on the 2nd of May, unbeknownst to me and without me having submitted any

18     request at all, the municipal Crisis Staff appointed me secretary of the

19     secretariat for All People's Defence in Bratunac.

20             Within the framework of the work done by that secretariat were

21     also various tasks related to civilian protection.  If you require

22     further details on that, I'm talking about military records, so entering

23     the information on military recruits, recruitment itself, and the persons

24     being sent to perform their regular military term at a particular

25     location.  So all of this was registered and recorded there.

Page 35299

 1        Q.   Let me stop you and try to refer you to some of your prior

 2     testimony.  The superior organ to the secretariat you worked in was in

 3     Zvornik; correct?

 4        A.   At one point, yes, during the war.

 5        Q.   During the war.  And above them was the headquarters in Pale;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   We didn't refer to it as headquarters.  It was the defence

 8     ministry.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So the Ministry of Defence was above the Zvornik centre,

10     which was above you.  That's my point.

11        A.   That's true.

12        Q.   And part -- let me just talk then about civil defence or civilian

13     protection which you discussed in your prior testimony.  This -- wait for

14     the question.  This is 65 ter 24746 at T7778 to 7780, your testimony in

15     the Blagojevic case.  You said -- the question was from Mr. Karnavas:

16             "You indicated civil defence.  Could you explain a little bit

17     about what you meant by civil defence?"

18             And your answer was:

19             "Civil defence or civil protection is a separate segment of the

20     defence and it is geared towards providing protection and safeguarding

21     people, the inhabitants and the society's material resources."

22             And then you go through the different aspects, which I won't go

23     through, in detail, and then you said:

24             "Then there was a unit for transport and supplies and a unit for

25     sanitation for the terrain and a biological and chemical protection


Page 35300

 1     unit."

 2             So that was part of civilian defence in Bratunac; correct?

 3        A.   I remember well what I said, but I can tell you what I said at

 4     the time.  I talked about the structure of the tasks performed by the

 5     secretariat for all people's defence in peacetime.  However, there comes

 6     a time when mobilisation must be carried out of the municipal civilian

 7     protection staff.  When that time comes, it can operate on an on-and-off

 8     basis, but it can also operate on a permanent basis, as in nonstop

 9     mobilisation.  (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted) - was

12     appointed --

13        Q.   Excuse me.

14        A.   -- as --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go into private session.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35301

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Wait, wait, wait.  We're in open session now,

15     again, and I don't know what the witness is about to say.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

17             Very well.  Let's continue.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you a question and try to speed this up.

20     This is from your testimony in that same case.  It's 78193.  And what I'm

21     getting to is that the municipal civilian protection staffs and the tasks

22     of cleaning and sanitising the terrain were not under the command of the

23     VRS.  Do you agree with that?  And I won't have to go through your

24     testimony.

25        A.   Yes.  Civilian protection was a special body, a special


Page 35302

 1     department comprising a sanitation unit and clearly the terrain.  The

 2     unit existed from before the war, but when the need arose, the unit was

 3     mobilised up to full complement, 100 per cent, and even extended.  There

 4     was a platoon-level unit also numbering 33 men.  The commander of that

 5     unit was Dragan Mirkovic who was the manager of the utilities, public

 6     utilities company in Bratunac.  He was fully qualified to perform that

 7     job --

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   -- because he had taken and completed a course.

10        Q.   Okay.  You've answered my question because I wasn't asking you to

11     go through all the personnel, but you've answered the question.

12             Why do you keep looking over at Mr. Karadzic when I ask you a

13     question?

14        A.   I can't say I even noticed Mr. Karadzic sitting there.  It may

15     have been a perfectly automatic reaction.  But if you mind, perhaps I

16     should turn around and sit in such a way that I'm facing you.

17        Q.   You can look however you want.  I was just wondering why you were

18     looking over there when I ask you questions.  So just to make it short,

19     basically the command chain of civilian -- of your staff in Bratunac went

20     through Zvornik and then up to the republican staff in Pale, right?

21        A.   As for civilian protection, is my understanding correct, yes.

22     The municipal civilian protection staff in Bratunac also had a regional

23     staff in Zvornik and another one at the republican level.  So that was

24     the chain of command and the links.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 35303

 1        A.   The way it operated.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, Drinska Street number 13 in Bratunac.  That's

 3     the street where the Vihor bus company is located on, right?

 4     Drinska Street.

 5        A.   Drinska Street number 13.  That's interesting.  Drinska Street

 6     number 13 is my family home.  The last couple of months perhaps or last

 7     year the street numbers were changed around.  So our home is now number

 8     21, and Vihor, I can't really say, but it could be street number 13 now.

 9        Q.   Okay.  My question wasn't clear.  Drinska Street number 13 is

10     where you used to live, correct, in Bratunac?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  My mother is still there.

12        Q.   Yes.  And you lived there during the war; right?

13        A.   I would spend the occasional night there during the war, but

14     normally I live in Ljubovija, which is in Serbia.  I bought some land

15     there in February 1987 and subsequently built a home.

16        Q.   Okay.  Well, I just ask you that, because in your sworn

17     statements to the Republika Srpska MUP, and we'll look at them later

18     maybe, you listed your address where you lived at Drinska Street

19     Bratunac, not Serbia like we see in your statement here today.

20        A.   Well, let me tell you this.  We have five houses in Bratunac, the

21     Tesics, and I myself own a house at this address.  That's a big home

22     where my youngest brother lives, and there is a smaller house,

23     middle-sized house where my mother lives, and the first house where --

24        Q.   Okay.  Let me stop --

25        A.   -- we were born.

Page 35304

 1        Q.   Right.  Where were you living in July 1995?  You listed in your

 2     MUP statements of 2003 Bratunac.  Were you living in Bratunac in July

 3     1995 during that very difficult period for Bratunac?

 4        A.   For the most part, more often than not, I slept in my office.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   At the municipal building.

 7        Q.   Right.  And when you weren't in your office, the last time I'm

 8     going to ask it, were you sleeping in Bratunac in, say, July 11th, 12th,

 9     13th, 14th, 15th?

10        A.   Those were critical days, and for sure I was at my office.

11     Almost certainly I spent every night there, although from time to time I

12     also went home to Ljubovija.

13        Q.   All right.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P04308 on the screen, please.  That

15     is an aerial of Bratunac.

16        Q.   And while that's coming up, the witness who testified just before

17     you, Branimir Tesic, is he related to you?

18        A.   We are brothers, both paternal and maternal.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It could also be "cousins"

20     in Serbian.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness has already spoken

22     about this.  When he said that he had five houses, he mentioned that, but

23     it didn't make it into the transcript.  When he mentioned that the house

24     where his mother lives, "that belonged to his brother who testified

25     before me."  That's what the witness said.

Page 35305

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:

 3        Q.   Page 282, please, in e-court.  All right.  Take a moment to look

 4     at this, sir.  It's an aerial view of Bratunac, and you can see the road

 5     on the bottom right leads to Potocari.  The one on the top heads off

 6     towards Ljubovija, Serbia.  And then we can see marked the Hotel Fontana

 7     with a red line, the police station with a red line where your brother

 8     worked, the Vuk Karadzic school and the stadium.  So could you, and the

 9     usher will help you, could you point to and put an M on the municipality

10     building where your office was, because that's not marked clearly.  If

11     you can find it.  Their Honours have been there.  I just want to make

12     this clear.

13        A.   What do you want me to mark?  What do you want me to show?  I

14     didn't hear it.

15        Q.   The municipality building where your office was.  It's right up

16     the street from the Vuk Karadzic school; right?

17        A.   I can't really see too well.  What is this?  Well, it was right

18     in the centre.  I don't know what exactly you want me to do.

19        Q.   Well, if you're having problem with the aerial, it was right down

20     the street from the Vuk Karadzic school towards the centre where the

21     mayor's office and the a -- is.

22        A.   Yes.  Could you help, please.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we zoom in a bit?

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, maybe if we could zoom in and maybe since

25     there are some markings there --

Page 35306

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  We can lose it.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah, start again.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Once again.  Can you zoom bit further.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:

 5        Q.   All right.  Well, you see the Vuk Karadzic school is marked with

 6     that red line.

 7        A.   Yes, I can see it.  This is the school, and then down here that

 8     leads towards Vihor.  Well, it's right here somewhere.  I don't know

 9     exactly which building.  It's a low building, rather long.  Before the

10     war the address was Marsala Tita Street 48.  I don't know what you want.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let's just leave that.  That's fine.  And Ljupko Ilic's

12     office was also in that municipality building, right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, I want talk about some of those critical days, as you called

15     them.  This is from paragraph 41 of your statement.  You said:

16             "On the night of 13 or 14 July, 1995, I saw several buses loaded

17     with Muslims in the town of Bratunac.  At the time, I thought these

18     people were from Potocari and could not be transported at night so they

19     stopped there until daybreak.  I did not hear that soldiers had abused

20     anyone because there were no soldiers in the city, only the elderly women

21     and children.  I did not hear either that people were killed on buses,

22     playgrounds, or streets.  Over the next days I learned from Ljupko Ilic

23     that there were several Muslim corpses in the Vuk Karadzic primary

24     school."

25             So we'll talk about 13 July in a minute, but something that's not

Page 35307

 1     in your statement at all is that the previous day, 12 July, you went to

 2     Potocari, didn't you?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   You went there around noon.

 5        A.   Just a minute.  Let me try to recall that.  After the meeting --

 6     well, it wasn't quite a meeting, but General Mladic asked me to come to

 7     the command.  He issued certain orders.  And after that, perhaps sometime

 8     around noon, I can't recall exactly, I went to Potocari to see and check

 9     whether the situation was really as General Mladic said it was.  He said

10     that there was some 20.000 people, women, and children.  Should I go on?

11     I went to Potocari with the president of the Executive Council,

12     Srbislav Davidovic, nicknamed Buco.  We went in my private car.  I went

13     there and I really saw for myself that there were as many people as he

14     said.  I had some experience with assessing numbers, because I frequently

15     went to football matches when I was a student, the Red Star club matches,

16     and I could judge because the stadium would fill with a number of people

17     and you could judge.  So there were about -- at least 20.000 people,

18     maybe even more there.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   In Potocari I stayed for perhaps 15 or 20 minutes.

21        Q.   Right.  And did you notice that there were as reported in the MUP

22     reports of that day virtually no men of military age present in the

23     crowd?

24        A.   Well, that depends.  Well, they looked miserable.  Maybe they

25     were young.  Well, not young.  In those wartime years, even men of 60

Page 35308

 1     years of age were conscripts, but there were people who were aged 30 or

 2     40 or 50, and there were also a lot of women and children, but I don't

 3     know if they were military aged or able-bodied men or not, whether they

 4     were conscripts or not.

 5        Q.   But it was overwhelmingly women and children and the elderly,

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  I think -- I think so.  Most people were elderly.

 8     People 40, 50 years of age.  As for able bodied young men who could carry

 9     their rifle every day, I don't think they were there.  There were a few

10     of them.  Because they took another route.  They did a breakthrough

11     towards Tuzla some 15-16.000 of them.  Those who wanted to fight --

12        Q.   I don't mean to cut you off but I don't have much time and you

13     answered my question, thank you.  You described that scene in your

14     testimony at 7814, line 18, as a scene of suffering and as a humanitarian

15     catastrophe.  And that's true when you testified about that, isn't it?

16     That's the way it looked to you.

17        A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's what it was like.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I don't know what your intentions

20     were.  I've got about a half hour left, I think of my hour.  I've got

21     another topic.  I'd rather just start that new topic tomorrow or we could

22     go for four minutes if you want.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let's adjourn.  Let's adjourn for today.

24             Mr. Tesic, we'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  I'd like to

25     advise you not to discuss with anybody else about your testimony.  Thank

Page 35309

 1     you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your welcome.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.43 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day

 6                           of March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.