Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35542

 1                           Tuesday, 19 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Yes, good morning, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  I'd like to

 8     introduce Raluca Dragan from Romania who is one of our legal interns who

 9     will be helping us today during this session.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  "Buna dimineata."

11             Good morning, Mr. Tieger.  Good morning, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  We

12     received the report contained in your periodic disclosure report.  I'd

13     like to ask you whether you have anything to add to the report we

14     received?

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I got the impression that you

16     wanted to hear more details on how we missed the items that were the

17     subject of the two recent disclosure violation motions and I am actually

18     prepared to do that.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, as briefly as possible.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, thank you.  But, Your Honour, at the

21     outset I have to say that when the Prosecution team detects an error

22     of -- in its disclosure, it's never routine to us.  And on the contrary,

23     the team members involved in search and disclosure matters - and there

24     are many - they are very upset about it, including myself.  And then we

25     immediately establish why these items have been missed and try to find a

Page 35543

 1     way to systematically and comprehensively react to this.

 2             In relation to these three Bosnian statements we missed, we found

 3     that they came from the files that we received from the Bosnian

 4     authorities many years ago, and these files were usually quite big and

 5     contained a considerable amount of statements, mostly inculpatory

 6     statements related to a given crime.  The statements were missed in the

 7     initial search and all subsequent searches because of the same OCR

 8     problem.  And as these three statements were never translated and also

 9     never separately processed into the OTP databases, the counter measures

10     for possible OCR problems never found them either.  Fortunately, the

11     lawyer preparing for the cross-examination of a Defence witness looked

12     into this file as this Defence witness was implicated in certain crimes,

13     and only then found the statements and we immediately disclosed it.  And

14     as we have seen from the disclosure report, we immediately have reacted

15     to it and we have meanwhile disclosed rules of the road files already in

16     a great extent and we are still doing it, but before doing so we have to

17     remove internal work products from these files, and, therefore, we will

18     need about two more weeks to complete the entire disclosure of the rules

19     of the road files related to the crimes charged in this case here.

20             And just if you want to know more of the rules of the road files,

21     I also have to tell you that very many of these files are duplicates or

22     triplicates or even more.  As an example, when ten persons are implicated

23     in a given crime, you have ten very similar files because for each

24     perpetrator the Bosnian authorities compare a separate file.  And the

25     Defence is also aware already of such files and has received quite a

Page 35544

 1     number of them because they showed up in the spreadsheets that we have

 2     compiled for the 66(B) requests for the Defence.  That's the first group

 3     of missed items.  And the second one is a report for Witness Vasiljevic,

 4     and I must say that troubled me the most because I was personally

 5     involved in this interview and it occurred at a time not long before the

 6     disclosure dead-line for witness statements of the Trial Chamber.

 7             The OTP has established procedures how to deal with such

 8     information reports.  The investigators conducting the interview have to

 9     prepare the report.  They then have to process it into the OTP evidence

10     collection.  They get ERN'd and then disclosed.  That is standard

11     procedure, and we have described this procedure in more details in

12     appendix B to the disclosure report of the 28th of July, 2011, where

13     Mr. Hogan, investigator, has described it in all steps.

14             When disclosure is particularly urgent, for instance, when we

15     have to meet a disclosure dead-line or when there is a witness upcoming,

16     sometimes the disclosure is done informally, also via e-mail, before a

17     given document is ERN'd.  In this particular case, the information report

18     was prepared in time but unfortunately it was not processed into the OTP

19     evidence collection but remained in the personal electronic file of the

20     investigator.  I, myself, was convinced that it was disclosed because of

21     the standard procedure.  Only when I prepared for the cross-examination

22     of Mr. -- of General Vasiljevic, I realised that the information report

23     was not showing in the spreadsheet for this witness that we had prepared

24     according to the 66(B) request.  At that time I still thought that this

25     disclosure report -- sorry, that this information report was disclosed

Page 35545

 1     and I thought probably, because of the urgency according to -- via e-mail

 2     without ERN-ing.  You can see that easily from my disclosure letter that

 3     was attached to the 78th disclosure violation motion because you can see

 4     an additional remark reflecting my thinking in this letter.  However, the

 5     review -- the internal review did not show any trace of any disclosure.

 6             As a consequence of the circumstance in this particular case, the

 7     team lawyers and investigators have been directed to review their

 8     personal electronic folders so that the Prosecution can exclude any

 9     similar human error in the future.  We also have requested the files of

10     the lawyers and investigators who have meanwhile left our team and left

11     the OTP, that they be retrieved from the archives and we will also review

12     these files.  It will take us about two weeks to do all this.

13             That is what I can say in relation to the two disclosure

14     violations at issue in your decision.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16             Do you wish to make any observations, Mr. Robinson?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you very much.  First

18     of all, we want to thank the Chamber for the efforts that it's been

19     making on our behalf, both yesterday in connection with our request for

20     the United Kingdom's documents and today by asking the Prosecution to

21     provide an oral explanation for the disclosure violations.  And we thank

22     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff for her detailed explanation of those.

23             I'd like to just give you some additional information on each

24     violation, the first one being the 77th disclosure violation motion,

25     where the Prosecution reported that the optical character recognition

Page 35546

 1     technology hadn't recognised the names.  In the Prosecution's

 2     consolidated response to the accused's third, fourth, and fifth motions

 3     for a finding of disclosure violations and for remedial measures on the

 4     6th of July, 2010, some two and a half years ago, the Prosecution said

 5     that they were already searching for the optical character recognition

 6     text of image files and that these multiple layers of searches enable the

 7     Prosecution to locate all witness-related materials.  They went on to say

 8     that they'd implemented an additional measure of searching through PDF

 9     and Microsoft Office files so that they could also, through optical

10     character recognition and other technology, do a full text search of

11     those documents.

12             In the Prosecution submission of a report concerning additional

13     measures related to Rule 66(A) disclosure filed on the

14     20th of August, 2010, the Prosecution reported that this search had been

15     completed for all witnesses.  In its notice of compliance with the

16     Trial Chamber's further decision on the 1st of December, 2010, the

17     Prosecution further reported that all four additional measures are

18     complete and all statements of their witnesses have been disclosed as of

19     the 30th of November, 2010.

20             In the Prosecution's response to Dr. Karadzic's 33rd, 34th, 35th,

21     and 37th motion for disclosure violations on the 4th of February, 2011,

22     it was said that the Prosecution conceded that it had violated

23     Rule 66(A)(ii).  And although the concrete measures implemented by the

24     Prosecution at the Trial Chamber's request had been somewhat effective,

25     by virtue of human error the statements at issue had been missed because

Page 35547

 1     the witness's name in the statement was not recognised by the optical

 2     character recognition process relied upon by the Prosecution.  And the

 3     Prosecution promised to continue to re-review the documents and the

 4     disclosure logs to identify any material which had been omitted from

 5     disclosure.

 6             In the Prosecution's disclosure report of the 27th of July, 2011,

 7     the Prosecution identified technical limitations in searching documents

 8     with poor quality as one of the reasons for the previous disclosure

 9     violations and it detailed the steps in which it was taking to remedy

10     that situation, including assigning Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff to personally

11     manage all aspects of this disclosure.  And it assured the Chamber that

12     the Prosecution has taken steps to ensure that all relevant interviews

13     had been reviewed and disclosed when required.  In the Prosecution's

14     response to the 74th motion for finding of disclosure violation on the

15     29th of October, 2012, the Prosecution explained that its failure to

16     disclose two documents from Defence Witness Andrej Demurenko was because

17     during the electronic search carried out for Witness Demurenko, the

18     optical character recognition technology did not recognise the documents

19     containing Colonel Demurenko's name or signature.

20             So I think that nothing we've heard today can give us any

21     confidence that the violations due to the optical character recognition

22     problems will be eradicated.

23             With respect to the 78th disclosure violation motion, the

24     Prosecution has explained that the statement was not entered into the OTP

25     evidence collection.  In its Prosecution's response to the accused's

Page 35548

 1     sixth motion for finding of disclosure violation and for remedial

 2     measures on the 12th of July, 2010, some two and a half years ago, the

 3     Prosecution acknowledged that the failure to disclose two proofing notes

 4     for Prosecution witnesses had been through oversight and indicated that

 5     the Prosecution has assigned a person to supplement the existing

 6     inter-case communication regarding witness disclosure by following up

 7     regarding the production of proofing notes, including their prompt

 8     assignment of evidence reference numbers.  It reported in its

 9     Prosecution's submission of report concerning additional measures on the

10     20th of August, 2010, that that measure had been completed.

11             In the Prosecution's response to Dr. Karadzic's 48th motion for

12     finding of disclosure violation and sanctions on the 16th of May, 2011,

13     the Prosecution said that the three interview reports that it had missed

14     had been located within the internal computer network of the Prosecution

15     and had been overlooked.  And they realised that they needed to search

16     certain secure drives in their network.  In the Prosecution's 49th motion

17     for finding of disclosure violation on the 8th of June, on their response

18     on the 8th of June, 2011, the Prosecution explained how it missed the

19     transcript of the interview with General Vlado Lizdek because it had not

20     properly been entered into the Prosecution's evidence unit when it was

21     received.

22             The Prosecution reported that in light of the oversight it had

23     identified interviews at a category of documents that should be further

24     examined and isolated interviews and undertook a systematic review of the

25     material to try to remedy the disclosure violations.  In the

Page 35549

 1     Prosecution's response to the 56th motion for finding of disclosure

 2     violations on the 18th of August, 2011, the Prosecution explained that

 3     the proofing note that it had not disclosed of the witness had been --

 4     had not been recorded in the disclosure log by another trial team and had

 5     therefore not been discovered and disclosed.

 6             In the Prosecution's response to the 58th motion for finding of

 7     disclosure violation, on the 7th of the September, 2011, the Prosecution

 8     explained that a transcript of witness testimony in another ICTY case had

 9     not been discovered because of human error.  This was not the first

10     disclosure violation with respect to General Vasiljevic.  In the

11     Prosecution's response to Dr. Karadzic's 71st motion for disclosure

12     violation on 15 May 2012, the Prosecution conceded that it failed to

13     timely disclose a 2005 information report of an interview with

14     General Vasiljevic, and the only explanation was that their previous

15     searches had not located this material and that it had been discovered by

16     another trial team within the Office of the Prosecutor.

17             So I think nothing that we've heard today can give us confidence

18     that the violations due to materials not being entered into the

19     Prosecution's database, can be eradicated.

20             To put these latest violations in context, the Prosecution has

21     failed to disclose 411 statements of its own witnesses which have been in

22     its possession since before May 2009 when that dead-line had expired.

23     Since the commencement of the trial, the Prosecution has disclosed

24     342.272 pages of exculpatory material, the vast majority of which was not

25     disclosed as soon as practicable and which was in its various collections

Page 35550

 1     before the trial had commenced.  On 62 occasions during the course of

 2     this trial, the Trial Chamber has made an express finding that the

 3     Prosecution had violated its disclosure obligations.  The violations have

 4     continued and will continue, and as long as the violations will continue

 5     we will continue to make a record of those violations.  And the

 6     violations will appear likely to continue throughout the trial, your

 7     deliberations, before the Appeals Chamber if there's a conviction, and

 8     the review process if a conviction is re -- affirmed on appeal.

 9             We welcome the Prosecution's initiative to disclose its

10     collection of witness statements known as the rules of the road

11     collection, and we see this as a very positive first step.  The

12     Prosecution has disclosed to us on Friday 1474 items totalling

13     267.343 pages, which it indicates is in the B/C/S language, majority of

14     interviews conducted by authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina after --

15     during and after the war.  We see open-file disclosure as the best

16     solution to these disclosure violations.  Give us the documents and the

17     time and resources to review them and we'll have no grounds to complain

18     about withheld disclosure, and there'll be no more disclosure violations

19     and no more disclosure violation motions.

20             And with the greatest respect, we believe that the Trial Chamber

21     has capitulated too readily to the obstacles to open-file disclosure

22     thrown up by the Prosecution.  Sensitive material can be segregated by

23     the Prosecution, can be excluded from the access given to the Defence

24     team, and can be reviewed by the Chamber or an independent party acting

25     at its direction.  After all these disclosure violations, requiring the

Page 35551

 1     Prosecution to segregate those items is a modest burden to ensure that it

 2     finally complies with its disclosure obligations.

 3             Thank you for your time and attention.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Do you wish to add anything, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, but only very briefly.  I

 6     mean, I agree with Mr. Robinson when he points out all the previous

 7     violations and he has identified the filings and the motions and the

 8     motion responses related to this.  And in the disclosure report that we

 9     filed on Friday, we have actually listed the -- in paragraphs 5 to 9 and

10     also in paragraph -- in footnote 3 all the major filings that show the

11     measures taken when a certain disclosure violation was found.  We have --

12     and all these measures that have been taken - and Mr. Robinson has

13     actually referred to them - have one thing in common, that is that every

14     time we tried to solve the situation comprehensively and systematically

15     and we added layer of layer of searches to find these things and we did

16     find a lot of measures -- a lot of items with these additional measures.

17     And I have explained to you why in the case of the -- of the three

18     statements for Mr. Bazdar and the protected witness, why all these layers

19     still missed the items, and, that is, a text search was not successful

20     because we never had a translation and we never had a proper index for

21     the particular statements in the system.  So the text searches pick up on

22     names when there is a name as a text in our system, but it wasn't for

23     these three.  And I've explained why that is so.

24             And in relation to the report for Witness Vasiljevic, we have --

25     we have done all these searches and the additional measures and the

Page 35552

 1     additional layers, but what we had not included and we had not envisioned

 2     because it should not be possible, that an information report remains on

 3     a personal file of an investigator and that is now what we are doing now.

 4     We are searching now the personal files of persons in the Prosecution

 5     team, current ones and even previous ones, that have ever dealt with

 6     witnesses.  And that was something that we hadn't foreseen and that is

 7     yet another additional layer.  So the measures that we took didn't fail.

 8     The only thing is we haven't thought of this particular possibility

 9     because we thought it would not happen because we have a standard

10     procedure for doing the work with witnesses.

11             And in relation to the request of an open file, I mean we have

12     already litigated that in writing and I don't want to add to this.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The booths have not been

14     given the text read by Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff and Mr. Robinson.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Again, I appreciate the hard work by the

16     interpreters, appreciate it very much.

17             Speaking for myself, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I'm of the opinion that

18     at the bottom of the circumstances lies the fact that the Prosecution

19     itself does not know what is contained in its very own evidence

20     collection.  Is my observation correct?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, let me tell you, we are talking

22     about 10 million of pages.  That's the extent of the evidence collection.

23     And of course nobody in this team or in any other team knows all these

24     10 million pages.  That's why we have to rely on searches, electronic

25     searches, and these electronic searches should pick up all relevant

Page 35553

 1     materials.  We, of course, know our witnesses and we also now get a lot

 2     of information on the Defence witnesses, but we definitely do not know

 3     the content of the 10 million pages.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  To put it directly, do you foresee that further

 5     disclosure violations are unavoidable despite the measures put in place?

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, there is no guarantee that we

 7     will not have any disclosure violations in the future.  There is no

 8     guarantee to this, because human error is very -- cannot be excluded and

 9     our search layers, as you have seen now, although we added so many, they

10     still, for particular reasons, miss a certain item.  I think we would not

11     be honest to say we can guarantee there will be no more.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your submissions and we'll leave the

15     matter at that.

16             There's another few matters I'd like to deal with.  Yes,

17     Mr. Tieger, the Chamber received a complaint from Witness Milan Martic

18     regarding the decision of the Registry denying the request to assign

19     Defence counsel.  So I wonder whether, if you would like to respond to

20     that complaint; and if yes, I would like to have it by the close of

21     business tomorrow, Wednesday.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Understood, Mr. President.  I haven't -- am aware of

23     it generally but haven't seen it.  I think the likelihood of our

24     responding is low, but it's prudent to look at it first.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 35554

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber received the courtesy copy and I was

 2     told that it was not officially filed yet.  Probably you will get it.

 3             Next, Mr. Robinson probably.  The Chamber received the Defence

 4     motion for subpoena General Zdravko Tolimir, which was filed

 5     12th of March, 2013.  I wonder whether it's clear that -- from the motion

 6     if the Defence has exhausted its endeavour to secure the voluntary

 7     co-operation from the witness in that the last e-mail correspondence from

 8     Mr. Gajic only seems to indicate that he prefers that nothing be planned

 9     early March as he has a dead-line for the submission of a notice of

10     appeal.  So if you could take a look into the matter.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I can advise you right now

12     because when I received that e-mail I told Professor Gajic to --if he

13     would please speak with General Tolimir, and if General Tolimir wanted to

14     testify, to let us know by the 7th of March, otherwise we would assume

15     that he didn't want to testify.  And as you can see from my e-mail to

16     him, he never heard anything from him, and to this day we haven't heard

17     anything from him.  So I think the best thing to do is to have a response

18     from General Tolimir to our motion.  And if there's any hint that he's

19     willing to testify, we could pursue it.  But from every piece of

20     information we have including his conversations with Dr. Karadzic and my

21     conversations with his legal advisor, we have no expectation whatsoever

22     that he's willing to testify in this case.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So I wonder whether you would like to contact

24     Mr. Gajic one last time and then whether his notice of appeal has been

25     filed and then it's clear that the general does not want to testify.

Page 35555

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  I'll do that.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             And finally, I have to make this observation, having observed

 4     evidence of Defence witnesses so far.  In earlier phases of the case and

 5     during the Rule 98 bis submissions, the accused made it clear that he

 6     would challenge all the charges in the indictment, including the

 7     occurrence of crimes.  However, the Chamber has noticed that recently,

 8     especially in relation to the Srebrenica component, the accused has

 9     called witnesses who themselves have testified to the occurrence of

10     crimes, thus triggering the Chamber to form an impression that his

11     defence is, as a result, focusing more on his alleged responsibility for

12     or linkage to the crimes charged.  More specifically, the Chamber is

13     wondering if Mr. Karadzic is conceding that certain crimes occurred.  If

14     that is the case, the Chamber would appreciate if the accused or

15     Mr. Robinson could liaise with the Prosecution on certain agreed facts

16     and come back to the Chamber with the result of discussions.  This would

17     be an exercise not only saving a great amount of time but also allowing

18     the Chamber and the parties to focus on more important issues.

19             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could just raise one

21     quick matter in connection with the Tolimir subpoena and, more broadly,

22     with respect to similarly situated witnesses who may arise, and that is

23     the following -- oh, and I should add this is a matter we've discussed

24     with Mr. Robinson in anticipation of this possibility.  Obviously, the

25     Prosecution is in no position to meaningfully prepare for

Page 35556

 1     cross-examination of such witnesses and even beyond that there's no

 2     guarantee that these witnesses will even testify at all, and under their

 3     particular circumstances may refuse.  And they, as the Court recognises,

 4     are witnesses whose preparation would involve extremely substantial

 5     efforts because of the nature of the witness and his involvement in the

 6     events.  So to avoid a lavish waste of resources expended in preparation

 7     for matters that do not arise for one of the two reasons I raised, we

 8     agreed with Mr. Robinson - but of course it's up to the Chamber - that

 9     the cross-examination of witnesses such as those would be deferred for

10     two weeks after the examination-in-chief, which would actually be half of

11     the time we would normally expect if we got a meaningful 65 ter summary

12     or a statement in advance, but at least compromises the circumstances

13     enough to take into account what would otherwise be a very unfortunate

14     wasteful expenditure of Prosecution resources and I presume Chamber

15     resources as well.

16             Thank you, Mr. President.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have some situations such

18     as with General Krstic.  We were unable to meet with the witness before

19     the witness's testimony because they refuse, and we don't know until they

20     come in to take the oath whether or not they're going to give testimony.

21     So we think it's reasonable for the Prosecution not to have to prepare

22     for that eventuality immediately.  And so if, in fact, the witness

23     testifies, which we hope they will, then we think it is reasonable that

24     the Prosecution be given some period of time after the direct examination

25     to prepare for and then conduct their cross-examination.  But that's

Page 35557

 1     completely up to you, but that's how we see it anyway.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Speaking for myself, it's difficult to issue its

 3     guidance in vacuum at the moment.  All I can say is to see how it

 4     evolves, and, as one Judge says, we play it by ear.

 5             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  That's the problem, Mr. President.  If we're simply

 7     playing it by ear, then the Prosecution -- the decision is actually made.

 8     The attorney handling that witness will have to prepare even if the Court

 9     later decides, well, that was unnecessary and unfair given the

10     circumstances.  That's why we're seeking some assurance from the Court

11     that there will be a deferral of the cross-examination under such

12     circumstances.  Otherwise, we have no choice but to go ahead and prepare,

13     thereby implicating the very concerns I expressed earlier.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let us take General Krstic.  Defence is in the

15     position -- I'm sorry.  The Defence is not in the position to know what

16     Krstic is going to testify; correct?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, no, that's not exactly correct,

18     Mr. President, because we have his previous testimony in his own trial as

19     well as statement he's given to the Office of the Prosecutor as well as

20     our own factual investigation, so we have some reasonable expectation as

21     to what he would testify to if he testified.

22             JUDGE KWON:  However, the Prosecution is in the same position,

23     isn't it?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, it is.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So why Prosecution does need more time to prepare

Page 35558

 1     its cross-examination?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Because the Rules provide for that, Mr. President.

 3     This is completely different situation.  It is their witness.  They can

 4     attempt to elicit from him what they choose, but the Rules provide for

 5     the Prosecution to be noticed with the facts upon which the witness will

 6     testify so that we can undertake adequate cross-examination preparation

 7     in the effort to illuminate the truth.  I mean, this is a quite different

 8     situation, it seems to me, when the one party calls a witness from whom

 9     it attempts -- it hopes to elicit favourable information to its case and

10     the other party has to, in advance, adhere itself --

11             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, my question is all the material the

12     Defence has in its custody are -- have been disclosed to the Prosecution,

13     haven't they?

14             MR. TIEGER:  First of all, Mr. President, we're talking about two

15     different situations.  Let me go back to the situation I talked about

16     earlier and I think they would involve potentially different solutions.

17     And I began with the case of Mr. Tolimir.  What you're asking is to have

18     the Prosecution - which, by the way, is working very, very long hours

19     already, as I know the Defence is - to invest a great deal of time into

20     the preparation for cross-examination of a witness who may not testify at

21     all, and who, if he does testify, may only testify to a very, very narrow

22     portion of events.  Now, that strikes me as a very unfair and unnecessary

23     expenditure of Prosecution resources.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I see your point.

25             But let's go back to General Krstic; why you need extra time

Page 35559

 1     after his direct examination.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  It may not be the case, but it cannot -- I mean,

 3     it's not fair to analogise precisely to the situation of the Defence.

 4     The reason -- I mean, you could -- you could, I think, essentially scrap

 5     65 ter (G) under the rationale that the Prosecution essentially can find

 6     itself in essentially the same position as the Defence.  The Rules

 7     provide for notice of what -- and this implicates the litigation we've

 8     been involved in concerning the provision of adequate 65 ter summaries

 9     and now the proposal that the -- this intractable problem be resolved by

10     the provision in advance of statements.  The fact is that for reasons

11     that we've come to appreciate during the course -- that all of us I think

12     have come to appreciate during the course of this case and other cases,

13     meaningful cross-examination requires meaningful notice so that the

14     cross-examination preparation can be focused.  The Rules provide for

15     that, and that's all we're seeking.  Now, it may well be the case that --

16     and I understand this part of the Court's position - that sometimes the

17     nature of the witness, the nature of his -- of that witness's testimony

18     can mean that the length of time after the examination-in-chief for the

19     Prosecution to fairly be asked to commence its cross-examination may

20     vary.  And we were, in the case of Mr. Krstic, prepared to begin on

21     relatively short notice under that situation and we prepared to do so.

22     But, as I think the Court is now aware, that's a different situation from

23     the situation of witnesses like Mr. Tolimir.  Nevertheless, the -- if

24     it's true that in some circumstances it may be possible for the

25     Prosecution to commence cross-examination right away based on its general

Page 35560

 1     preparations for that witness, it is certainly also true that on other

 2     occasions and perhaps many occasions fairness will demand that there be a

 3     deferral of time before cross-examination commences.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  -- speaking for myself here, I think the point is

 7     that why should a party have to spin its wheels for something that might

 8     not happen, given the scope of this case and the intensity of the pace of

 9     the case, that's -- to me is the point because we all have many, many

10     tasks to do.  This situation could well be reversed and that's why I'm

11     helping Mr. Tieger here because it's an issue of the parties, and maybe

12     the Chamber doesn't have the same problems that we do, but we don't have

13     time to prepare for witnesses who aren't going to testify - that's the

14     bottom line - and I'm sure the Prosecution doesn't either, so why make

15     them?  That's how we see it.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I believe the Chamber has never denied a

17     remedy which is, in fact, sound and warranted.  I'll discuss with my

18     colleagues.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll bring in the next witness.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

23     please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 35561

 1                           WITNESS:  VELJKO MARIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Dr. Maric.  Please be seated and make

 4     yourself comfortable.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

 8     Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Maric.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I will ask you to make pauses between questions and

13     answers and also to speak slowly so that everything would be recorded.

14     Dr. Maric, did you give a statement to my Defence team?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   You didn't give any statement?

17        A.   Yes, on arriving here on Saturday, I gave a statement on

18     Saturday.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

20        A.   I didn't understand you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7931 is the document that I would

22     ask to be shown in e-court, please.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  The document has not been released, Mr. Karadzic,

24     in e-court.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  As you know, the e-court

Page 35562

 1     system was down this weekend.  We've had this document sent to the people

 2     who are releasing them on behalf of the Registry, and apparently they

 3     haven't done that yet.  So I'm not sure if we can print out a copy of the

 4     statement and give it to him.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec, do you have any objection?

 6             MR. ZEC:  To the statement, no.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed with the hard copies that we have.

 8     Probably the witness has his hard copy as well, otherwise we can print it

 9     and provide him with the statement.

10             Do you have your statement with you, Doctor?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while this is being

13     printed, I would ask the following:  Could the Chamber encourage the

14     Registry to enable me to upload from my room documents in the system?  I

15     can do that during the night and then they would be released by the

16     case manager.  Otherwise, sometimes we really have a problem.  There is a

17     bottleneck with the uploading system and working with any electronical

18     equipment is really at 19th century level.

19             JUDGE KWON:  This seems to go beyond by purview.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, one thing that is within your

21     purview is the inequality of arms that we suffer as a result of the

22     e-court system because the Prosecution can upload documents directly into

23     e-court, Mr. Reid can do that; but for the Defence, apparently, they

24     don't trust us, so they put another layer.  So the ITSS people from the

25     Registry are the ones who only can upload Defence documents.  As we have

Page 35563

 1     done in this case, our case manager provided the documents in the system

 2     to the ITSS and has been calling them all yesterday and today to tell

 3     them that these things need to be in the system but it hasn't been done

 4     yet, probably because they're busy refiguring the system.  But if we

 5     ourselves had the same privilege as the Prosecution and could upload them

 6     directly then we wouldn't have had this problem.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Under the same circumstances, I take it even

 8     Mr. Reid could not have been able upload it.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  No, I think Mr. Reid could have uploaded it.  It's

10     only because the ITSS people haven't done the part that they're supposed

11     to do that we don't have it in e-court.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  I was told again, the system was down for everybody.

14     We'll leave it at that.

15             Yes, let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would ask you anyway to ask the

17     Registry with your encouragement for a possibility to reduce the

18     inequality which has existed up until now.  Let me continue.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Dr. Maric, do you now have your statement in front of you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  We just need to make short pauses between question

23     and answer.  Can you please confirm whether you have read and signed this

24     statement?

25        A.   Yes, I can.  Yes, I have.

Page 35564

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Is this statement truthful to what you told the

 2     Defence team?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you the same questions today, would

 5     your answers substantially be the same?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this

 9     statement and the associated documents to be admitted, but I have one

10     additional document which I would present viva voce.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, there are three associated

12     exhibits, and although it's not indicated on our Rule 92 ter notice, I

13     haven't been able to locate them in our Rule 65 ter exhibit list so I'm

14     asking for permission to add them to the list because it appears that

15     Dr. Maric was interviewed after our list was prepared.  And the third

16     document actually was -- previously the last page of 1D7239 but was not

17     related to that log so we separated it and created a separate document

18     for that.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Is 1D7932 uploaded on e-court?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, I think it's in the same situation as the

21     statement.  It was given for upload, but whether it's actually made it or

22     not, I don't know.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it has not been uploaded in e-court

24     as of yet.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it there's no English translation?

Page 35565

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  I believe that there is an English translation

 2     because it was the last page of 7239 at the time that 7239 was

 3     translated.  So probably our case manager uploaded both the document and

 4     its translation.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Mr. Zec?

 6             MR. ZEC:  No objection to the request to add these documents to

 7     the 65 ter list.  However, there are several issues with these exhibits

 8     that we've also communicated with the Defence last Friday and nothing has

 9     been resolved.  So I can go through these issues now if you like.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MR. ZEC:  With respect to ID073238, we asked for redaction of

12     item numbers of --

13             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, is it tendered?

14             MR. ZEC:  It's 1D07238 --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.

16             MR. ZEC:  -- of the associated exhibits.  It's not tendered.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Before he continues,

19     I'm just wondering if Mr. Zec has received the e-mail that I sent to him

20     and Mr. Tieger which answered each of these points.  So we could go

21     through it orally, but I sent an e-mail to the Prosecution team which

22     answered each of the items that Mr. Zec had raised.

23             MR. ZEC:  But that e-mail hasn't resolved these issues.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Zec.

25             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

Page 35566

 1             So with respect to this first associated exhibit listed in the

 2     list, we've asked for redaction of item numbers 111 to 122, at English

 3     pages 1 to 5, B/C/S pages 1 and 2, because we believe they are

 4     irrelevant.  We asked for information why six names appear twice in this

 5     log-book.  With respect to 1D07239 --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, shall we see it first, 1D7238.  But

 7     instead of spending time I wonder whether Mr. Karadzic is ready to deal

 8     with these three exhibits live with the witness and resolve the issue all

 9     together?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we could do that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then we'll admit the Rule 92 ter

12     statement of Dr. Maric.  Shall we give the number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, that's Exhibit D3128.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please --

15             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MR. ZEC:  Would you like me to address issues with other two

18     exhibits in terms of English translation and upload.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Probably the Defence is aware of the situation so

20     that Mr. Karadzic could deal with it and then, if necessary, you can take

21     up the issue by way of objection or in your cross-examination.

22             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, actually, we could probably use

24     some time to get organised for this because I was the one that was

25     dealing with these objections and I have to now advise Dr. Karadzic as to

Page 35567

 1     what the nature of them were so that he can deal with the documents.  So

 2     perhaps we could take an early recess for our morning break and we can

 3     come back and deal with those.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we break 15 minutes and another 15 minutes

 5     after this witness's evidence is over, if that is convenient to the

 6     parties?  We'll break for 15 minutes.

 7                           --- Break taken at 10.02 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.20 a.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             I should now like to read the summary of the statement of

12     Dr. Veljko Maric in English.

13             [In English] Dr. Veljko Maric was a surgeon in the Foca hospital.

14     The hospital near Foca was the only hospital in the municipality,

15     although there were outpatient clinics in other towns.  Before the war,

16     the hospital was run by republican organs which paid the salaries,

17     provided everyday materials and human resources.  After the beginning of

18     the conflict the organising body changed from BH to the Republika Srpska.

19             Before the war, the hospital kept 30 to 90 days' worth of medical

20     supplies; however, after the conflict started the stocks of medicines

21     were used, and as the original government organs were no longer

22     functioning the supplies were not replenished.  Therefore, medicine was

23     provided by humanitarian organisations and all the medicine was

24     efficiently used.  Despite this, there were shortages of medical supplies

25     throughout the war.

Page 35568

 1             The ethnic structure of the hospital staff was mixed until

 2     July 1992, when Muslim employees left the hospital.  These employees left

 3     of their own free will, they were not driven out.

 4             Veljko Maric estimates that the hospital was running on full

 5     capacity throughout the war.  There was no theft of medical supplies from

 6     Foca hospital and the building suffered some damages from the fighting

 7     which was not able to be repaired, but this only slightly affected the

 8     hospital's functioning.  It was difficult for patients and staff to visit

 9     the hospital, as access to the hospital was blocked by the Green Berets

10     who would not let Serbs pass through the barricade particularly in the

11     first few days of the fighting.  Only the wounded were allowed to pass

12     through.  On 8th of April, 1992, the Green Berets stopped the bus and

13     transported the staff to the hospital -- that transported the staff to

14     the hospital and would not let it pass; therefore, the staff had to

15     continue to the hospital on foot.

16             Many patients of different ethnicities asked to be transferred to

17     areas where their ethnicity was in a majority and efforts were taken to

18     accommodate all of those requests.  In 1992, the hospital staff attempted

19     to hand-over the sick children of other ethnic groups to the Muslim

20     authorities for their own safety; however, the Muslim authorities refused

21     to take them.  The KPD received a separate supply of medicine from the

22     Red Cross and on a number of occasions the hospital had to borrow

23     supplies from the KPD as theirs had run out.  Foca hospital also assisted

24     with medical supplies for the KPD and prisoners would be treated at the

25     hospital on a regular basis.  Further, the doctors from Foca hospital

Page 35569

 1     would treat the prisoners at the KPD when the doctors from the KPD left.

 2     They provided assistance whenever it was required, usually on a daily

 3     basis.

 4             There was no relationship with the military or civilian

 5     authorities and these organisations could not influence the work of the

 6     doctors.  The provision of medical help was not affected by religions,

 7     ethnic affiliation, or skin colour.  Everyone who entered the hospital

 8     received treatment; no discrimination was made.  As far as

 9     Dr. Veljko Maric is aware, no doctors in the Foca hospital discriminated

10     on the grounds of religion or ethnicity.  In the first few days of the

11     fighting, the hospital also took in civilians who had nowhere else to go.

12     Both Serb and Muslim civilians stayed and received the food.

13             [Interpretation] That is the short summary.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And now, Dr. Maric, could we please look at a few documents.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We cannot use e-court, can we?

17             JUDGE KWON:  I think, yes, we can see them.  I see one -- the

18     document already.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we then call up

20     1D7932.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Karadzic, that particular document has not

22     been uploaded.  The other two documents are.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Then we'll try to see

24     it on the ELMO or perhaps it will be uploaded later.  Could we then see

25     1D07238.  Yes, we see it now.

Page 35570

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Dr. Maric, could you look on the left side, these dates of

 3     admission.  The Prosecution was interested to know why these lists of

 4     patients who were admitted in March and early April, 12th April,

 5     et cetera, are on this list.  Can you tell us what happened with those

 6     patients who were admitted in March, for instance, where number 120 was

 7     admitted on 12th April.  Were they in the hospital in the war period and

 8     for how long?

 9        A.   All patients were received as --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer the question.

11             Yes, Mr. Zec.

12             MR. ZEC:  In my translation, item 120 is received 2nd April.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Possibly, possibly.  I see

15     something 1204, but that's probably the 2nd.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Could you tell us about the movement of those patients who were

18     admitted before the outbreak of the conflict?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the second page as

20     well while removing the English.  What we see is just half of the page.

21     Could we see the other half in Serbian.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let us collapse the English.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber, first of all, what this document is,

25     what this book is, and then tell us about this page and these dates.  Why

Page 35571

 1     are they important?

 2        A.   This is a sheet of the protocol of admission of patients to the

 3     paediatric ward from 111 to 120.  Number 119 closes the month of March.

 4     The patients who were at the hospital in Foca, including the paediatric

 5     ward, numbered 59.  All of them continued with their treatment until they

 6     were cured and released from the hospital, specifically in this case from

 7     the paediatric ward.  In April 1992 we admitted patients on a daily basis

 8     from Foca, Visegrad, Cajnice, Rogatica, and Gorazde.  In the month of

 9     April we admitted 149 patients with different conditions of Muslim

10     ethnicity.  Thus, in May, June, July, August, and September we admitted

11     patients, and in that period we had 268 Muslim patients beginning with

12     pregnant women, adults, and children who sought our help.  They were

13     treated and discharged throughout 1992.

14        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber about this penultimate column on

15     the right-hand side.  What are these dates?

16        A.   These are dates of discharge and also an indication of their

17     status and improvement and where, in which ward, they were treated.

18        Q.   And tell us about column 11, could you read from top to bottom?

19        A.   The ordinal number, the first one?

20        Q.   No, column 11, type of service.

21        A.   It says, "Improved, cured, cured, cured, improved, cured,

22     improved, improved, improved."  Those are the qualifications of status of

23     patients upon discharge.

24        Q.   Did it ever happen that somebody was discharged without having

25     been either improved or been cured?

Page 35572

 1        A.   No.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And what about this last one?  He was released on the

 5     12th of April?

 6        A.   Yes, he was admitted on the 2nd and discharged on the 12th.

 7        Q.   Could you now explain this document, this page.

 8        A.   This is the next document in line 121 to 130, according to the

 9     sequence of admission of patients to the paediatric ward.

10        Q.   What is the last thing on this page number 8, column 8, the last

11     one on the left half of the page?

12        A.   That's the place of residence of patients, where they lived,

13     Gorazde, Sarajevo, Gorazde, Foca, Sarajevo, Foca, Foca, Cajnice, Foca,

14     Foca.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see the next page.  Could you explain,

16     Dr. Maric, what made people, Muslims from Cajnice and Gorazde, for

17     instance, to come amid the war for treatment to Foca.  Do you have an

18     explanation?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             Yes, Mr. Zec.

21             MR. ZEC:  Objection, leading.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Not at all, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Why do you think it was leading, Mr. Zec?

24             MR. ZEC:  Mr. Karadzic should ask the witness these facts, not

25     putting the facts to the witness.

Page 35573

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The witness confirmed these patients were from

 2     certain areas, and -- I will consult my colleagues.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.  We will allow the

 5     question.  Can you answer the question, Doctor?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hospital in Foca is a regional

 7     hospital, the regional hospital for this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

 8     it used to admit and still admits patients.  Patients had a choice to go

 9     outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina towards Uzice or Pljevlja, in

10     Montenegro, or Sokolac or Sarajevo, but they came to Foca because

11     regionally they belonged to us, they were our patients, and probably they

12     trusted us.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   It's all mixed here.  Can you tell me, I'll read the names, is it

15     Serbian or Muslim, Stanimirka?

16        A.   Serb.

17        Q.   Nikolina --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could this reading slow down, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The speed is such that the interpreters couldn't

20     follow at all.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.  I apologise.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Enida Hajric?

24        A.   Muslim; Konjo, Muslim; Hodzo Enis, Muslim; Marina Vojcic, Serb;

25     Drakul [phoen] Milici, Serb.

Page 35574

 1        Q.   This is already June and July; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Elvedin Konjo remained until 25th September; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted now

 6     without going through all of it?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr.  Zec.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, we still remained -- our objection that

 9     we should -- that item numbers 111 to 122, at English page 1 to 5, B/C/S

10     page 1 and 2, should be redacted as irrelevant.  It's before the

11     conflict.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see the point of redacting one item or

13     several items, 111 to 122.

14             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think Mr. Zec's point is that it

16     occurred before the conflict -- it occurred in March before April, but

17     the Prosecution's case is replete with events that occurred in March

18     against -- where Serbs and Muslims were in conflict, including the

19     setting up of barricades at the beginning of March.  They should also

20     exclude much of their evidence if they think it's irrelevant.  So we

21     think it's relevant, and many of these patients continue -- the Muslim

22     patients continue to be admitted into the hospital after the 6th of April

23     in any event.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We will receive it.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3129, Your Honours.

Page 35575

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now have

 3     1D07239 in e-court, please.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  And, Mr. President, while we're waiting for that,

 5     with respect -- I think this should be admitted as an associated exhibit

 6     without further clarification under -- and marked for identification

 7     because the Prosecution's objections to this exhibit are, number one,

 8     that only the first 16 pages are translated, and that's true.  We sent it

 9     all to translation but they only gave us back 16 pages, so we could admit

10     that for marked for identification until we get the rest.  And then they

11     said the second point for this document was that the last page was not

12     related to the rest of the pages and we agree with that, and the last

13     page is a separate document which we'll lead live.  So given that those

14     were the only objections to this document, I don't see any reason why we

15     should have to lead it live.

16             JUDGE KWON:  How about the last page?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, the last page is a separate exhibit which we

18     will lead live.  That is 7932.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Which hasn't been uploaded?  If it is uploaded here

20     why don't we deal with it?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I think it has -- that document has now been

22     uploaded --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  -- thanks to Mr. Reid.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec.

Page 35576

 1             MR. ZEC:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it -- but shall we mark it

 3     for identification pending English translation.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3130, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 1D7932, please,

 6     the last page as a separate document.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we still can't open the document.

 8     It doesn't show in our system.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Perhaps we could put it on the ELMO then.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Dr. Maric, can you tell us what can be seen on this sheet of

13     paper?

14        A.   This is part of the protocol, or rather, it's a page from the

15     protocol of children who were sent from the children's ward to the public

16     health institution Dr. Simo Milosevic in Montenegro.  Actually, these

17     children were our patients before the conflict broke out on the

18     8th of April in Foca.  And at first we tried to put them in a safe place

19     because we feared for them.  We didn't manage to.  And they stayed with

20     us all the way up until the end of 1993, or rather, you can see here.

21     Some of them until the 29th of December and some until September 1993

22     when we used ambulances to transport them to Montenegro and the

23     Norwegian Red Cross provided for their stay at this health institution,

24     and from there they probably went to their families or somewhere else.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could you explain this last one, the dates of

Page 35577

 1     discharge, and what does the one-but-last mean, Igalo, Igalo, Igalo, what

 2     does that mean?

 3        A.   That is a remark so that we know for the purpose of our own

 4     records that this patient when leaving our hospital was put up there.  So

 5     that we have these records for as long as the hospital is there, for as

 6     long as the medical records are there, everyone will know that these

 7     patients went to Igalo because that was recorded there.

 8        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what we mean by Igalo?

 9        A.   These children were put up at the rehabilitation centre

10     Dr. Simo Milosevic in Igalo, and they stayed there probably with the

11     assistance of the Norwegian Red Cross.  They paid and that's how they

12     managed to stay on there until they were definitely put up with certain

13     families or their families, and so on.

14        Q.   Thank you.  The third one from the bottom, the orthopaedic clinic

15     in Podgorica; right?

16        A.   Yes.  First this person was transferred to the orthopaedic clinic

17     in Podgorica and then this patient was also transferred to

18     Dr. Simo Milosevic, the public health institution in Igalo.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3131, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Dr. Maric, did you admit only the ill?  Did they send the wounded

25     to you, persons who were wounded during combat?

Page 35578

 1        A.   From the 8th of April until the end, the 30th of April, we

 2     admitted 48 wounded persons, Serbs, and Muslims; 37 Muslims and 11 Serbs,

 3     that is.  And I'm a surgeon, I'm one of the two surgeons there, so I

 4     operated on all of those people or I assisted during surgery.  They were

 5     treated, they were cured, they were at the surgery ward together, and

 6     their comrades from the front line came there to visit them and we had no

 7     problems whatsoever.  We functioned normally, we worked normally.  Upon

 8     treatment they were discharged from hospital.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D7933 in

11     e-court.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Dr. Asim Prutina, does the name ring a bell?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

15             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, with respect to this document we -- the

16     only notice we got was afternoon yesterday about this document.  That's

17     the only time it came up.  I haven't had opportunity to see it at all.

18     Also, I would note that there was not any form of notification as to what

19     the witness is going to testify about this document, nothing in the

20     statement, there is no proofing note.  So I would suggest that Defence be

21     prevented from using this document with this witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to respond, Mr. Karadzic or

23     Mr. Robinson?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.  This is a

25     document that has an ERN number.  The Prosecution obtained that and

Page 35579

 1     they've had it for a long time.  As for notification --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's not an issue.  Yes, what do you have to

 3     say about notification?  Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll ask Mr. Robinson, but

 5     you did see today how much the OTP complained today, probably rightly so,

 6     because of their lack of resources.  Can you imagine what it's like for

 7     the Defence with even less resources?  We're falling flat on our faces.

 8     I was tolerant when the OTP provided notification within even shorter

 9     periods of time.  Perhaps Mr. Robinson would have something to add.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, on the 16th, Saturday, we

11     provided notice that we were going to be using this document, and I

12     believe - and I'm looking at the e-mail but I might be wrong about

13     this - but in the e-mail of the 16th which was sent to the Prosecution,

14     one of the documents that was attached to that e-mail was this document,

15     1D7933, which bears the ERN 0039-1549.  So I don't understand why Mr. Zec

16     hasn't received it on Saturday with the e-mail that was sent to his team.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Mr. Zec?

18             MR. ZEC:  I'm looking at the e-mail again.  I don't see it.  I

19     don't see it.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Perhaps if you wouldn't mind, if Mr. Zec can just

21     walk over here I'll show it to him.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Given that it is just a one-page document, shall we

23     proceed?

24             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 35580

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  In the circumstances, the Chamber will allow the

 3     accused to use the document.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it in e-court?  All

 5     right.  We're going to use the ELMO then.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Dr. Maric, can you tell us whether Dr. Asim Prutina is someone

 8     you know.  Is the name familiar?

 9        A.   Yes, this is my colleague.  He's an internist and he's the

10     director of the medical centre in Gorazde.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read the heading here and can you tell the

12     Trial Chamber where Pljevlja is?

13        A.   This is a list of wounded and ill patients who were sent to the

14     hospital in Pljevlja.  Pljevlja is a town 100 kilometres away from

15     Gorazde in Montenegro.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Vulnus sclopetarium and others.  Can you tell us what

17     kind of injury that is that is recorded on this page?

18        A.   These are injuries due to fire-arms, all of them.  All of them,

19     actually.  I don't see any explosives or anything like that, so different

20     body parts were wounded by fire-arms.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And what about the names of the patients, do they

22     indicate any ethnic background?

23        A.   It's mixed, which would correspond to the population of Gorazde,

24     different ethnic backgrounds, Serbs, Muslims.

25        Q.   Aha.  Carapic is the last name under 7 and 8.

Page 35581

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Perhaps Mr. Karadzic will do that, but when he said

 3     there is a mix of ethnicity can we know exactly what -- where he is

 4     referring to and what ethnicity these people are.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it's Doctor's answer was mixed.  Probably he

 6     was about to read through.

 7             Could you be more specific when you said it's mixed, Dr. Maric.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both ethnicities are there.  On

 9     this list of ten patients, there are two Carapic's who are Serbs and

10     there are eight Muslims who were sent to the hospital in Pljevlja.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The Carapics are under which number?

13        A.   Seven and 8.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the next page now.  That's number 11.

15     Can you tell us who this is and can you tell us why this person was sent

16     to Pljevlja?

17        A.   This is an injury of the spine, again due to a fire-arm.  It is

18     Salaka Jusuf, a Muslim, who is being sent to Pljevlja.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the next page now.  Please, again, the

20     heading, and can you tell us where Uzice is?

21        A.   This is a list of persons who were wounded in Gorazde and they

22     were sent from Gorazde about 100 or 200 kilometres -- no, about

23     130 kilometres away, that's where Uzice is.  That's a town in Serbia.

24     The patients were sent from Gorazde due to their injuries.  Again they're

25     due to fire-arms, all the injuries registered here.  Except

Page 35582

 1     Radovic Dragoljub, the remaining nine persons are of Muslim ethnicity,

 2     whereas Radovic Dragoljub is an ethnic Serb.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  What about the date of admission?

 4        A.   The 4th of May, the 8th of June; that is to say, from the 4th

 5     until the 8th of May, 1992.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the next page now.  Can you just cast a

 7     glance.  Similar, but the first one, Goran, is a Serb and all the rest

 8     are Muslims; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can we have the next page now.  Also all of them are Muslims and

11     Prutina signed this and that's the end of May; right?

12        A.   Yes, the 30th of May.

13        Q.   And how would you assess these wounds?  Most of them are

14     sclopetarium; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Sclopetarium, could you please explain to the participants what

17     that means?

18        A.   That's an exit/entry wound due to fire-arms.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could we have the next page, please.  Thank you.

20     Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, again it says wounded persons.

21     Where is this Sokolac, can you tell us?

22        A.   Sokolac is a hospital which is about 80 or 90 kilometres away

23     from Gorazde.  It's in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, Republika Srpska.

24     And two patients, on the 6th and 7th of May, were sent from Gorazde to

25     the hospital in Sokolac.

Page 35583

 1        Q.   Under whose control was Sokolac then?

 2        A.   Serbs controlled Sokolac, and the hospital was managed and headed

 3     by Serbs.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And the last page, please.  Can you tell us where

 5     these persons were sent and what you know about that?

 6        A.   These were patients who came to the hospital in Foca, surgery,

 7     where I work and they came on these dates here when they were sent

 8     because they had been injured.  They had surgery, they were treated, and

 9     some of them like number 3, Prsusa [phoen] Jusuf, due to longer medical

10     treatment I transferred him to Sarajevo, to Sarajevo in Kosevo, because

11     of the chest wounds that he had sustained.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Prutina, Dr. Prutina, did he know who was working

13     in Foca and who he was sending patients to?

14        A.   Of course.  We are friends and colleagues and we just parted

15     briefly during the war.  We're friends to this day.  We visit each other.

16     We knew who does what and who was performing surgery because this is a

17     joint medical institution.  It used to be an SOUR in the former

18     Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And the last page, please.  Could you please tell the

20     Trial Chamber where Dr. Prutina sent these two patients, laceral

21     contusion and the other one is explosives, so it's a laceration and a

22     wound due to explosive.

23        A.   Yes, these were sent to Belgrade 300 kilometres away.  That's

24     what my colleague did.  Since they had to be treated for a long time, he

25     thought that he should not send them to us because we were a smaller

Page 35584

 1     institution.  He immediately wanted to send them to a major medical

 2     centre and that is why he decided, that is why my colleague decided, to

 3     send them to Belgrade.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Maric.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted and,

 6     actually, half of it is in Latin and the rest are names.  So the only

 7     thing that has to be translated are the headings.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3132, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

11     questions for Dr. Maric at this moment.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Dr. Karadzic.

13             Dr. Maric, as you have noted except for these four documents that

14     we admitted, your evidence in chief in this case has been admitted in

15     writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  After a break we are going to

16     take for 15 minutes, you will be cross-examined by the representative of

17     the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Zec.  15 minutes.  We'll resume at

18     quarter past 11.00.

19                           --- Break taken at 11.01 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.17 a.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

22             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would only note that the

23     previous document that was discussed was, in fact, sent to the

24     Prosecution as Mr. Robinson suggested.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your confirmation.

Page 35585

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

 2        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Maric.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Let me ask you first a couple of background questions.  You are

 5     member of the SNSD party, that is Alliance of Independent Social

 6     Democrats of Milorad Dodik, are you?

 7        A.   Yes.  I am also a deputy in Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Before you moved to the SNSD party, you were member

 9     of the SDS party; this is correct?

10        A.   No.  I was just a deputy after the first democratic elections.

11     My term of office was in 1997, and I was a deputy on behalf of the

12     Serbian Democratic Party and I served my duty for four years then.

13             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 24 --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, excuse me, Mr. Zec.

16     Mr. President, because of the ongoing technical difficulties, the

17     Prosecution exhibits aren't available to Dr. Karadzic other than being

18     printed out in hard copy.  So I'm sorry to bother you with this.  We

19     could ask somebody to be doing that right now, but could we perhaps take

20     another short recess so that he could have access to the exhibits that

21     the Prosecution is going to be using.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say something about the

23     transcript.  Dr. Maric said that as a representative of the

24     Serbian Democratic Party as a movement at that time.  So he was not

25     necessarily a member.  He was a representative on behalf of the

Page 35586

 1     Serbian Democratic Party as a movement, and this part "as a movement" has

 2     not been recorded in the transcript.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  How many documents are you going to use in your

 4     cross-examination, Mr. Zec?

 5             MR. ZEC:  Not that many, Mr. President.  But I just don't know

 6     how we can work without e-court.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, as I understand the situation, it's

 8     roughly as follows:  The documents that are not available in e-court are

 9     documents that were not previously in the system.  In addition, Mr. Reid

10     has worked out a system which allows those documents to be shown on

11     Sanction and has e-mailed to the Defence hard copies of those particular

12     documents.  The problem is that while Mr. Robinson has those documents

13     because of the e-mail system, I understand that Mr. Karadzic does not

14     have access to e-mail from where he's sitting, so he can't simply click

15     on those documents and see them, so, and -- which is why, I understand,

16     he's asking for the hard copies.

17             JUDGE KWON:  If we adjourn and resume at 11.30, would it be

18     sufficient, about eight minutes?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  I think so.  There's 15 documents to be printed

20     out.  I think it can be done.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll do so.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this portal should stop being

24     the portal of the accused, it should become the portal of the Defence so

25     that I could use it too.

Page 35587

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that it is now -- they are now available

 2     in the e-court.  Then we can continue.

 3             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             I asked that 65 ter 24730 be brought up.

 5        Q.   And this is, Dr. Maric, a publication of the SDS party for

 6     Serbian lands entitled programme.  Can we have next page in B/C/S.

 7     Dr. Maric, can you confirm that we see here Srbinje.  Can you confirm

 8     that Srbinje was the new name of Foca after the Bosnian Serb authorities

 9     renamed the town?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you confirm under item number 1 it is your name?

12        A.   Yes, that's right.

13             MR. ZEC:  I will tender this, Mr. President.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a list of candidates for

15     the elections in 1997.  This is the election list for the local

16     elections, the first democratic ones held in 1997 where I'm shown.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So you are tendering the first page and this page?

18             MR. ZEC:  And there is one more page.  The list goes on to the

19     next page.  In total three pages.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6203, Your Honours.

22             MR. ZEC:

23        Q.   Do you know, Dr. Maric, the accused in this case either privately

24     or professionally?

25        A.   I do, I do.

Page 35588

 1        Q.   How exactly?

 2        A.   Well, Dr. Karadzic is the president of Republika Srpska.  He was

 3     the first president of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   And you knew him -- so, for example, did you meet him during the

 5     war personally?

 6        A.   Well, I knew who Dr. Karadzic was as he's a psychiatrist.  I had

 7     an occasion during the times of the former Yugoslavia to meet him at some

 8     lectures and meetings of doctors, doctors from the former Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina.

10        Q.   And only quick yes or no answer.  During the war, did you have an

11     opportunity to meet him personally?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Would you remember the date, occasion?

14        A.   The president of the republic visited the health institution,

15     that is to say the hospital, in Foca and that was the first time I met

16     the president during the war.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You told us in paragraph 5 of your statement that the

18     conflicts which spread across Bosnia and Herzegovina forced people to go

19     where their own people were.  Dr. Maric, by the end of 1992, there were

20     almost no non-Serbs living in Foca; correct?

21        A.   No.  Foca is a town which had a population of approximately

22     50 per cent Serbs and 50 per cent Muslims.

23        Q.   Petko Cancar from Foca told the RS Assembly and the accused on

24     2nd April 1993 that only one people lives on the territory of Foca and

25     there's only one religion practiced there.  This was the reality of Foca

Page 35589

 1     in 1993, Dr. Maric, wasn't it?

 2        A.   In 1993 that was during the war, rather than before the war; that

 3     is, during the war.  But you have seen that I mentioned that life was

 4     not -- I had 260, I wanted patients at the hospital.  How many there were

 5     in the town, this I don't know.  268 non-Serb patients are those that I

 6     had at the hospital, so certainly their families were there as well, but

 7     I don't know how many people that was.

 8             MR. ZEC:  I refer to P01367, English page 25, B/C/S e-court

 9     page 17.

10        Q.   In May 1993 at the 30th Assembly, Petko Cancar said:

11             "I cannot persuade the international community, but I can

12     persuade you that there is currently not a single Muslim in the area of

13     the largest municipality in the former BH."

14             Again, Dr. Maric, this was the reality of Foca in 1993; correct?

15        A.   Well, let me not repeat once again, as I don't know this.  I'm

16     not familiar with Petko Cancar's statements and I cannot interpret them.

17     But I started from the point of view of my work.  That was the number of

18     patients I had, so on the basis of that I can judge how many families

19     were there as well because probably the patients were not there alone

20     with other families.

21             MR. ZEC:  I referred to P01371, English page 78, B/C/S e-court

22     page 38.

23        Q.   Just everyone is clear, Dr. Maric, Petko Cancar was -- had

24     several official positions during the war.  He was member of the

25     Crisis Staff in Foca in 1992, he was deputy in the RS Assembly, and he

Page 35590

 1     was appointed advisor to the RS Presidency in July 1992.  Can you confirm

 2     this, Dr. Maric?

 3        A.   He held many positions.  I don't really know all of them, to be

 4     honest, but he had positions at the republican level before the war and

 5     after the war and also in the local community.  And, by the way, he is a

 6     lawyer by occupation.

 7        Q.   This is in D00440, page 3, and P03333, page 40.  Dr. Maric, were

 8     you present in Foca for the town celebration of St. Nikola's day in 1994

 9     during which officials of the RS leadership and religious heads were

10     present?  Were you there?

11        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember.  I don't remember.  But

12     considering my profession, probably I was present if I was there, but I

13     don't remember.

14        Q.   Let me show you a short video-clip of this event, and this is a

15     speech made by Momcilo Krajisnik, president of the RS Assembly.  I will

16     be asking you to tell us whether you recognise the location and people

17     present.

18             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter -- sorry, 65 ter 40254A, videotape

19     V000-1078, time code 31 minutes, 4 seconds, 32 minutes, 52 seconds, date

20     is 21 May 1994.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Momcilo Krajisnik:  Brothers and

23     sisters, high priests, president of Srbinje Municipal Assembly, members

24     of the Assembly, dear professor Kilibarda [phoen], dear people of

25     Srbinje, it is a great pleasure to be among you after two and a half

Page 35591

 1     years.  Today, unlike before, I see a true Serbian town.  You proudly

 2     bear your true Serbian name.  You are the example to all Serbs because

 3     you have managed to eliminate what was coming from this town.  You

 4     prevented it so it would not happen.  From this town, from this

 5     community, the hardest things were aimed at the Serbian people by the

 6     then-leaders of the Serbian ... um ... Muslim organisation, the

 7     organisation SDA.  Mr. Izetbegovic then said that this town would be

 8     another Mecca.  But you would not allow that.  And for that, in the name

 9     of all Serbs, I thank you."

10             MR. ZEC:

11        Q.   Did you recognise this event, Dr. Maric?

12        A.   Yes, this is Momcilo Krajisnik who is standing on the pavement

13     and giving a speech in front of the Municipal Assembly.

14        Q.   In Foca?

15        A.   In Foca.

16        Q.   Did you recognise people present?

17        A.   Well, I see some uniformed people.  I didn't really pay attention

18     and it doesn't really mean much.

19        Q.   Mr. Krajisnik said that Srbinje is a true Serbian town that

20     proudly bears its Serbian name which, in fact, it was called Foca once

21     before; correct?

22        A.   Yes, the town was called Foca up until the decision of the

23     Municipal Assembly by which the name of the town was changed to Srbinje.

24             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender this.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

Page 35592

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6204, Your Honours.

 2             MR. ZEC:

 3        Q.   Miroslav Stanic, member of the Crisis Staff in Foca, made

 4     statements on the Serbian television at Pale about the dedication of the

 5     Serbian commanders in Foca, as a result of which he said Foca is free

 6     without having a constant headache from the Mujezins singing from the top

 7     of the minarets.  This was the reality of Foca, Dr. Maric.  By the end of

 8     1993 there was no mosques.  There was no Mujezins in Foca; correct?

 9        A.   That was the policy I'm not familiar with.  What I do know is

10     that I received 352 dead at the morgue of the hospital.  They were dead

11     soldiers and civilians.  And from the hospital morgue, as I was the

12     manager during those years, they were all sent, 646 dead people from

13     Foca.  And as for the policies pursued by Miroslav Stanic, this is

14     something I'm not familiar with.

15             MR. ZEC:  I refer Your Honours to P03476, page 4.

16        Q.   Mr. Karadzic was in Foca in August 1993 and you received him

17     there, and I believe you told us at the beginning about this event.

18     Among the people present at the time there were Mr. Karadzic,

19     Vojislav Maksimovic, Petko Cancar, Colonel Marko Kovac, and you,

20     Dr. Maric.  Can you confirm this?

21        A.   President Karadzic visited the hospital with his wife,

22     Vojislav Maksimovic, professor and dean of the university, as in 1993 on

23     the 15th of October in Foca.  Thanks, among others, to the local and

24     republican authorities, the medical and dental universities started

25     working with enrolment of the first students and now it's been already 20

Page 35593

 1     years that it's in operation.  So this could have been the visit during

 2     which I was present.

 3        Q.   I asked you if these particular persons were present, do you

 4     recall, for example, Colonel Marko Kovac being there, commander of the

 5     tactical group Foca?

 6        A.   No, no, no, no.

 7        Q.   Let's see a transcript of the video of the radio broadcast of

 8     this event.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 24728A.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see at line 21 of the previous page.  Could

11     you give the reference number again.

12             MR. ZEC:  My apologies.  It's P03476, page 4.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. ZEC:

15        Q.   Dr. Maric, in front of you there will be a transcript of the

16     radio broadcast of the event that we are talking about.  It starts with a

17     report about the visit.  It refers to you, among other people.  And there

18     is also a speech made --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait until we have it.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             MR. ZEC:  I believe we have it.  Can I continue?

22        Q.   And it -- as you will be able to see, Dr. Maric, it starts with

23     report about the visit --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Can you see?  I don't have it in front of me.

25             MR. ZEC:  I'm sorry, I thought that we had it.  Can I continue?

Page 35594

 1        Q.   So -- and then there is a speech made by Mr. Karadzic which is on

 2     the second part of the page.  Can we scroll down.  He talks about Foca

 3     and about its future.  At the bottom of the page and in next page

 4     Mr. Karadzic refers to the negotiations, and according to him the Muslim

 5     side does not ask for Zvornik or Foca anymore - can we also have next

 6     page - but for Visegrad and Bratunac which cannot be given.  He said, and

 7     this is at second page:

 8             "It is important for the citizens of Foca to know that the Muslim

 9     republic gave up on Foca."

10             Can we have last page, page number 3 in both languages.

11             Mr. Maric the B/C/S should be on the screen, B/C/S.  I would like

12     to read this portion of the transcript and I would like you to confirm

13     this -- that these were your words.  Can you see it, Dr. Maric?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I would tender this transcript.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the key so we

17     could see who UM is.

18             MR. ZEC:  Dr. Maric, I believe, just confirmed these were his

19     words.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I did not confirm

21     the words.  I'm reading the text which is presented to me.  Please,

22     please.  Since January 1993 I was the acting director of the hospital in

23     Foca.

24             MR. ZEC:

25        Q.   My apologies.  I have to interrupt you.  But if you read this

Page 35595

 1     portion, perhaps you can remember whether these were your words; and if

 2     not, so I can play you tape -- I can play the tape of this portion.

 3        A.   Well, look, it's been 20 years.

 4        Q.   I understand.  But if you read, perhaps you'll recall.  And you

 5     recalled event at the beginning when I asked you about this event.  It

 6     refers to the Serbian university --

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8        Q.   Go on.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think we should see the video,

10     then this would be no doubt.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's an audio.

12             MR. ZEC:  It is an audio, a radio broadcast.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Perhaps we can hear it so that the witness can see

14     if he recognises his voice.

15             MR. ZEC:  So I need 65 ter 24728A, clip number 2.

16                           [Audio-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Unknown man: ... with the work for

18     which we are motived.  We have shown that we can continue and

19     President Mr. Radovan Karadzic will continue to be happy with our work,

20     as he approves our plans and encourages us in our sound medical views

21     about the future and in general, both with respect to the clinical centre

22     and the education facilities, to establish a Serbian university.  The

23     three faculties which it will comprise with a high quality will be the

24     same level of quality as the one at Sarajevo university when it was set

25     up in 1946.  Again, this medical school must be the first faculty to open

Page 35596

 1     up in our new state."

 2             MR. ZEC:

 3        Q.   Dr. Maric, are you satisfied that these were your words?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I would tender this clip.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. ZEC:  And when I said "clip," the whole thing.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes --

11             MR. ZEC:

12        Q.   Can you perhaps wait, Dr. Maric, I have limited time.  Unless it

13     is related to this clip, and if you can ask Chamber to allow you to

14     speak.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6205, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Maric, did you want to add anything?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm asking to say

19     that the university in the Serbian Sarajevo, the medical and dentistry

20     school in Foca is part of the university in Serbian Sarajevo.  That's all

21     I wanted to add.  On 15th of October we started working at the university

22     as well, and these preparations started in 1992 so that there would be

23     two university schools in a town that had never had a university before.

24     My -- that was the thrust of my speech.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

Page 35597

 1             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, may I just clarify that we have this

 2     complete clip in evidence from the beginning when the reporter speaking,

 3     Dr. Karadzic's speech, and Dr. Maric's speech.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  When I said we would admit it, I meant the pages we

 5     saw.  But how many pages?

 6             MR. ZEC:  Three pages I believe, the complete thing, and we can

 7     provide those to all, just in case.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any difficulty with it, Mr. Zec.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Maric, let's talk about your colleagues, non-Serb doctors at

11     the Foca hospital.  You told us in paragraph 5 that they left the

12     hospital and that no one drove them out.  In fact, Dr. Maric, soon after

13     the conflict in Foca started, non-Serb doctors and other non-Serb

14     employees of the Foca hospital were either expelled or detained at

15     KP Dom Foca, were they?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Are you saying that there was no non-Serb doctor detained at the

18     KP Dom?

19        A.   No, no.

20        Q.   Among the non-Serb doctors that were detained at the KP Dom were

21     Dr. Amir Berberkic, Dr. Aziz Torlak, Dr. Ibrahim Karovic, medical

22     technicians, Mato Ivancic, Izet Causevic, Zeco Mehmedspahic, Karabegovic,

23     and others.  Are you aware, Dr. Maric, that these people, your

24     colleagues, were detained at the KP Dom?

25        A.   My colleague Amir Berberkic was wounded.  I operated on him on

Page 35598

 1     both of his knees.  And after he was successfully treated, he left

 2     probably as a prisoner.  He found himself in prison.  Dr. Aziz Torlak was

 3     supposed to reunite with his family and with the medical convoy he left,

 4     and later I learned he was in the prison in Foca.  My other colleagues

 5     were from the health centre.  However, in early 1992 they had some

 6     problems at the health centre and they were probably transferred from the

 7     health centre because of those disagreements, I'm talking about

 8     Dr. Ibro Karovic, into the KP Dom.  The medical technicians did not leave

 9     the hospital.  They probably placed themselves at the disposal.  Nobody

10     was taken away from the building of the hospital.  I say that with full

11     responsibility except that Dr. Torlak left with a medical convoy towards

12     Rogatica.  They were in town not at the hospital, so they did not leave

13     from the hospital and they were not taken away from the hospital.

14        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence that Dr. Aziz Torlak was

15     brought to the KP Dom from his work-place at the hospital; were you aware

16     of this?

17        A.   Dr. Torlak -- in fact Dr. Seku Stanic [phoen], director of the

18     hospital --

19        Q.   It was a simple question.  Yes or no?

20        A.   I cannot.  I'm trying to tell you that Dr. Torlak was taken away

21     with all the papers by a medical convoy.  He was given an ambulance, too,

22     to take him home.  He was going to Rogatica, and then probably on the way

23     from the hospital along those 2 kilometres this ambulance was stopped and

24     Aziz was placed in the KP Dom, because I visited 15 days later to see

25     what happened because he's my colleague, a surgeon.  He was going home

Page 35599

 1     and he found himself in the KP Dom.  I went with a colleague to the

 2     KP Dom to see what I can do because I'm a responsible person, a

 3     responsible work colleague, and that was my duty.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I refer to P03335, page 1212.  Can we

 5     have now 65 ter 24767.

 6        Q.   This is an order issued by Colonel Marko Kovac, commander of the

 7     Tactical Group Foca.  This order was issued pursuant to the order of the

 8     VRS Main Staff for the release and hand-over of Dr. Karovic to the

 9     representative of the exchange commission, Slobodan Mitrovic.  Dr. Maric,

10     your colleague, Dr. Karovic, was detained at the KP Dom; correct?

11        A.   He's a colleague from the health centre, but that's true.  He is

12     a colleague from a different health institution.

13             MR. ZEC:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6206, Your Honours.

16             MR. ZEC:

17        Q.   Let's talk about the medical treatment at the KP Dom.  Dr. Maric,

18     the KP Dom detainees died as a result of lack of medical treatment.  Did

19     you know that?

20        A.   No, and I don't believe it.

21        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence that KP Dom detainees

22     Esad Hadzic, Omer Kunovac, and Ibrahim Sandal died as a result of

23     sickness and beatings.  Were you aware that this was happening at the

24     KP Dom, Dr. Maric?

25        A.   All the sick and seriously ill from the KP Dom were brought to us

Page 35600

 1     to the hospital.  They were treated or operated on regardless of the fact

 2     that they were at the correctional penitentiary facility.  It's

 3     impossible for a person to have died without having been to the hospital

 4     before.  You should look at the documentation from the hospital and you

 5     would see that I operated on people from the prison.  They came to get

 6     specialised treatment, but what was going on at the prison I don't know

 7     because I had no occasion to see it.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I refer to P03568 page 2824 and P03335,

 9     page 1230 to 33 and page 1255.

10        Q.   Dr. Maric, among the detainees at the KP Dom there were

11     Asim Hadzimuratovic, Hamdija Hadzimuratovic, and Rasim Jusufovic, former

12     patients of the Foca hospital who had heart surgery performed on them

13     before the war.  They did not receive treatment for their condition

14     during the detention.  Did you know this, Dr. Maric?

15        A.   No, no.

16             MR. ZEC:  I referred to P03335 page 1220 to 21.

17        Q.   This Chamber has also received evidence that during the winter

18     1992/1993, the KP Dom detainees were held in the cells with no heating

19     provided.  The food and the hygienic conditions were poor.  Some of the

20     detainees had lost up to 40 kilos of their body weight by this point.

21     Some got lice on their bodies.  Were you aware of these conditions at the

22     KP Dom, Dr. Maric?

23        A.   Health care for detainees in the prison is the responsibility of

24     agencies outside the public health care fund or budget, so I was not

25     aware of this.  All they needed the hospital could have provided to them.

Page 35601

 1     My colleagues went to see those patients when their own doctors were

 2     absent.  They came to the hospital to be seen.  That's all I know.  I've

 3     been to the KP Dom only once when I went there to see -- to visit my

 4     colleague, Dr. Aziz, to see what had happened to him.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I refer to P03335, page 1226 to 28.

 6        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence that a male nurse by the name

 7     of Gojko Jokanovic was the only medical personnel at the KP Dom and that

 8     Dr. Cedomir Dragovic visited the KP Dom.  Dr. Dragovic was a

 9     gynaecologist, wasn't he, Dr. Maric?

10        A.   Yes, his specialisation was gynaecology.

11             MR. ZEC:  I refer Your Honours to P03335, page 1266; and

12     page [sic] 03349, page 3.

13        Q.   Dr. Amir Berberkic testified in the case of Milorad Krnojelac

14     that Dr. Drago Dragovic and later Dr. Vladicic [phoen] came to the KP Dom

15     once a week and that there was a queue during the visits.  They only

16     asked prisoners about their health in the presence of the guards without

17     conducting any examination.  This is at transcript page 23 -- sorry, 3740

18     to 41 of the Krnojelac case.  Dr. Maric, this was how the medical

19     treatments were conducted at the KP Dom.  Did you know this?

20        A.   I don't know, but I cannot accept that a doctor would go there

21     and conduct an examination in that way.  That is contrary, it cannot fit

22     in with our concept of medicine and the Hippocratic oath.

23        Q.   Let's talk about the log-books that you referred to in

24     paragraphs 11, 12, 21 to 23 of your statement.  It is my understanding

25     that you provided copies of these log-books, did you?

Page 35602

 1        A.   The service.

 2        Q.   And then you took from the service and you provided to the

 3     Defence copies of these log-books that we talked about earlier?

 4        A.   The service.  No, that's the regular service that took only the

 5     documents because there are permanent records of the hospital and it can

 6     be obtained at the request of the proper agencies.  I only approved it.

 7     It all came officially.  I did not bring any documents, but I have the

 8     originals in the archives in the hospital.

 9        Q.   I take it it was you who decided which pages should be provided,

10     did you?

11        A.   No, no.  Well, we couldn't do that with protocols.  We have

12     protocols covering 1500 to 2.000 patients.  The number admitted in 1992,

13     we couldn't take all of that.  We took only examples, samples to show

14     you, for you to see that there were 268 non-Serb patients treated that

15     year.

16        Q.   Let's first have a look at the log-book of the children's

17     department, 1D07238.

18             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, in order to get through this material

19     fast I have prepared charts for the log-books that Dr. Maric provided and

20     I have hard copies of these charts and also they are uploaded in e-court

21     as 65 ter 24796.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we get an explanation why

23     there is no type of service indicated or no outcome of the treatment.

24     Why is this selected in this way?

25             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I -- we considered to include what is the

Page 35603

 1     issue before the Chamber --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see how it is.

 3             MR. ZEC:

 4        Q.   Dr. Maric, if you look at the chart that you have in front of you

 5     of the children's department log-book, it shows that 15 Muslim children

 6     were received at the hospital in the period from 7 April 1992 to

 7     3 December 1992.  Dr. Maric, these children survived some of the most

 8     horrific events.  They watched their parents being killed or expelled and

 9     they were left behind.  Were you aware of this?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a reference to this?

11     What kind of examination is this?  How do we know this?  Where is this

12     information?

13             MR. ZEC:  These are my questions for the witness --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is testifying.  This is not a

15     question.  We don't have a reference for this --

16             MR. ZEC:  [Overlapping speakers]...  coming up also.

17             JUDGE KWON:  He is.  He's doing his cross-examination,

18     Mr. Karadzic.  This is an improper intervention on your part.

19             Please continue, Mr. Zec.

20             MR. ZEC:

21        Q.   So did you know, Dr. Maric, what happened to these children?

22        A.   Of course I do.  I'm a doctor at that hospital.  What we see on

23     the screen is the sequence of admission.  This is a protocol of the

24     paediatric department.  Every ward has its own protocol, its own record

25     of admission of patients into that ward.  This is the sequence in which

Page 35604

 1     they were admitted and discharged with the result of having improved or

 2     been cured or transferred to a different health care institution.  These

 3     are the categories we have in the medical profession.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  While your time is up -- but let us be clear, what

 5     document are we looking at now?  Are we looking at the same document?

 6             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Mr. President.  So this is -- on the screen is

 7     document 1D07238 and you should have chart -- the first page of the chart

 8     like an overview that's been prepared of this log-book.  That's on the

 9     hard copy that I gave to you.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, also, I think Dr. Karadzic did

11     have a good point.  When you look at line 61 -- page 61, line 4, that --

12     whenever it's been put to the witness, that's a statement by the

13     Prosecution.  So then he -- when it came time to ask his question he just

14     said:  Do you know what happened to these children?  But that was not the

15     same question he was implying by his own intervention.  So I think he

16     should be required to put to the doctor whether or not the doctor knows

17     that the children that are listed here survived and watched their parents

18     being killed or expelled while they were left behind.  Since the

19     Prosecutor made that statement, he should be required to put that to the

20     witness.

21             MR. ZEC:  And I will, Your Honours, in a minute or two.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             MR. ZEC:

24        Q.   Dr. Maric, did you know children by the name of Kemal Soro and

25     Azra Ramovic?

Page 35605

 1        A.   No, not by name.

 2        Q.   Kemal is listed in item 160 of this log-book and it is at English

 3     page 18, B/C/S page 5, of the log-book.  Kemal is also listed in the

 4     chart in front of you.  We have his statement.  Kemal said that one

 5     day --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Let's do it one by one.  So show the

 7     Kemal one from the chart.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, in the B/C/S if you look at the last,

 9     last row you see it's one -- item number 160.

10             JUDGE KWON:  So make sure that e-court is following so that the

11     witness can see the document.

12             MR. ZEC:  I will.

13        Q.   Dr. Maric, we have statement of Kemal.  He said that one day Serb

14     soldiers attacked his house in the area of Foca called Codor Mahala.  His

15     father and his uncle were taken to the KP Dom.  Kemal moved to his

16     grandparents' house about 2 kilometres away.  His mother and brother

17     stayed in Foca.  The statement of Kemal is 65 ter 24774.  We can have it

18     on the screen, and I need page 4.  Kemal said that the Serb soldiers

19     attacked this area as well.  They set the house on fire, and Kemal heard

20     shots.  He was hiding on a tree nearby.

21             MR. ZEC:  We would need page 4 of the statement, Mr. Registrar.

22        Q.   Next morning everyone from the house was missing, Kemal's

23     grandfather, uncle, two aunts, and their children.  Kemal went to the

24     house of Serb neighbour.  The neighbour directed Kemal to the hospital.

25     At the hospital Kemal was placed into a room with Muslim children only.

Page 35606

 1     There was a girl by the name of Azra.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, if you look at the chart Azra Ramovic is

 3     listed in the log-book twice at item numbers 153 and 182 at English

 4     pages 17 and 29, B/C/S pages 5 and 8.  According to the log-book, Azra

 5     was 4 in 1992.  Kemal said that Azra had injuries all over.  Azra told

 6     Kemal that his mother and brother were killed at the house in Foca where

 7     she was.  According to Azra, soldiers set the house on fire and shot

 8     those outside, the people that were in the house.

 9        Q.   Dr. Maric, this is what was happening to these children.  Were

10     you aware of this?

11        A.   I don't have the protocols on the screen showing these children.

12     I'm not a paediatrician, but I know the rules.  Since the paediatric ward

13     is small, and if they have been successfully treated but still remain in

14     the hospital, then we placed them in departments where there is room.  I

15     had the Serbian version of the protocol.  Now I see only the English one,

16     but I could see that he, this boy, was moved to the ophthalmology

17     department.  I don't know anything about these events if you ask me about

18     them.  I'm a surgeon and for 30 days I did not leave the OR.  I don't

19     know the things that you want me to answer.  That's the only fair thing I

20     can say.

21        Q.   Dr. Maric, the Serb authorities considered these children for

22     exchange, that is, to send them over to the other side in order to get a

23     Serb back.  Did you know this?

24        A.   Yes, I believe we were the one to suggest first that children

25     should be united with their families, but we did not succeed.  Where we

Page 35607

 1     did succeed is that one boy, Djuderija, was exchanged for some of our

 2     people.  But I don't really remember this exactly.  It was the wish of

 3     the authorities of both sides, I suppose, because they knew about these

 4     children who remained in the hospital in Foca.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Can we have P06080.

 6        Q.   And this is a combat report sent by Colonel Marko Kovac to the

 7     Herzegovina Corps in October 1992.  In item number 3 he refers to the

 8     visit of the ICRC to the hospital, and according to this report they

 9     talked to the Muslim children.  At the end of the report Colonel Kovac

10     refers to these children again, and he said:

11             "If there is interest, we have 21 Muslim child and a number of

12     women for exchange or we would send them to Gorazde."

13             This is, Dr. Maric, how it was dealt with these children.  Did

14     you know this?

15        A.   No, no.  I've already stated --

16        Q.   Let's have a look --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be allowed to

18     have a say?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What did you wanted to say, Mr. -- Dr. Maric?

20     Did you want to say something in response?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I don't want such statements

22     made about patients regardless of their ethnicity at the hospital in

23     Foca.  We treated all patients the best we could under those

24     circumstances, with the food we had, with the supplies we had.  We did

25     not treat them according to their ethnic background.  I've never stated

Page 35608

 1     that.  I've never said anything of the kind.

 2             MR. ZEC:

 3        Q.   Let's have a look at the log-book of the --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  How much more do you need, Mr. Zec?

 5             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, what I have prepared is I want to deal

 6     with the general admission log-book, there's a second log-book, and I had

 7     two newspaper articles about Foca today and the witness.  So if you allow

 8     me, I would only cover the next log-book and I would finish.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  It seems you do not pay any attention to the

10     time-limit the Chamber has imposed.

11             MR. ZEC:  I'm trying my best, Mr. President, and we had problems

12     with e-court and I'm trying -- and I apologise to cutting witness's

13     answer.  I'm doing my best.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.  I'm confident you can conclude

16     before the break.

17             MR. ZEC:  I will do my best.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MR. ZEC:  And I can stop whenever you wish me to.  Can we have a

20     look at admission log-book, that is 1D07239, and can we have it on the

21     screen.

22             And, Mr. President, I also prepared charts for this log-book that

23     should be also in front of you like second document.

24        Q.   You told us in paragraph 15 that the Serbian population was

25     prevented from coming to the hospital during first days of the conflict

Page 35609

 1     because it was blocked by the Green Berets.  Dr. Maric, the admission

 2     log-book that you provided shows that during this period there were

 3     patients of Serb ethnicity received at the hospital.  Were you aware of

 4     this?

 5        A.   The first wounded person of Serb ethnicity could have entered the

 6     Foca hospital on the 14th of April, 1992; that is Marijan Blagojevic.

 7     From the 8th until the 14th, not a single wounded Serb person could have

 8     reached the hospital.  It was only civilians who were admitted into the

 9     hospital and there was no obstacle for civilians and ill persons.  I

10     already said that we had our first wounded person admitted on the 14th of

11     April.

12        Q.   Dr. Maric, if you look at the chart in front of you, that's the

13     paper I provided earlier.  Dr. Maric, it's hard copy.  So if you take

14     second document, that one, exactly.  So if you look at that chart and

15     that chart represents list of patients of Serb ethnicity that were

16     received at the hospital in the period that we have in the log-book, that

17     is from 7 April to 23 May.  Please keep in mind, Dr. Maric, that each

18     page of the B/C/S version of the log-book contains ten entries except for

19     page 1 and 37 which have 11 entries.  If you look at the chart, the

20     column called B/C/S, you will be able to see that there were number of

21     patients of Serb ethnicity received at the hospital during the first days

22     of the conflict.  For example, item numbers 2551 to 2670 at pages 1 to 12

23     of the B/C/S and 1 to 35 of the English cover period --

24             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure I'm following.

25             MR. ZEC:  So I'm referring to the log-book so -- and also --

Page 35610

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you take one by one.  I can't follow this.

 2             MR. ZEC:  So if you take that chart, Mr. President --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  What I received is just English showing the number

 4     of item -- the numbers.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Exactly, and that represents names of Serb ethnicity

 6     that were received at the hospital during the period we have in the

 7     log-book.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So why don't we show the witness the correct column

 9     and rows.

10             MR. ZEC:  On the screen.  Yes, we can do that.  So it's

11     65 ter 24796.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the paper

13     copies of those documents.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Rest assured they are just numbers.  You can follow

15     them.

16             MR. ZEC:  65 ter 24796.  Second page, please.

17        Q.   Dr. Maric, if you look the column B/C/S, each entry represents

18     Serb patient received at the hospital and it covers all the entries from

19     the beginning down to number 2667 represent Serb names.  And this is the

20     period from 7 to 17 April, which is ten days into the conflict.  During

21     these ten days there were about 40 patients of Serb ethnicity received at

22     the hospital out of 121 entries for that period.  So, Dr. Maric, patients

23     of Serb ethnicity were received at the hospital during the first days of

24     the conflict; correct?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, this list that we're given it

Page 35611

 1     doesn't include the names, so how is the doctor supposed to --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think he's putting his --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's hear the witness.

 5             Yes, Doctor.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.  I've said that wounded

 7     persons and injured persons could not enter the hospital in Foca until

 8     the 14th of April, 1992.  Marijan Blagojevic was the first patient.  Ill

 9     persons could probably be admitted because that was the only way in which

10     it could be done.  There was a war in Foca that went on for about eight

11     days, fighting in town, and that was dangerous for all citizens.  And

12     what you see there in the protocol, those are ill persons.  They came and

13     that's why we admitted them.  I've already said to the Defence, too, that

14     we admitted wounded persons from Gorazde but we could not receive people

15     from Foca because the road to the KP Dom across the Drina bridge, the

16     iron bridge, was probably under some control and the forces would decide,

17     probably, who they would let pass to the hospital.  That is my

18     explanation.

19             MR. ZEC:

20        Q.   Majority of the patients that asked for medical treatment at this

21     first initial period were non-Serbs; however, by the end of April and in

22     May the number of non-Serb patients drops and the number of Serb patients

23     increases.  If we look, for example, page 3 of the chart, these names

24     listed there are also Serb -- patients of Serb ethnicity.  And you can

25     see every day -- like each page that you see B/C/S represents ten entries

Page 35612

 1     and as you can see every page contains majority of Serb patients that

 2     were received at the hospital.  And this covers period late

 3     April/beginning of May.  So were you aware that almost --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Let's stop here.  You said names --

 5     let me see.  These names listed there are also -- where are these names

 6     appearing?  You are saying that these numbers represent Serbs --

 7             MR. ZEC:  That's the better --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  -- according to the original chart?

 9             MR. ZEC:  That's the better way to put it, yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And then you say B/C/S represents ten entries, what

11     do you mean by that?

12             MR. ZEC:  So every page in the B/C/S version of this log-book has

13     ten entries.

14             JUDGE KWON:  How is it clear from this document?

15             MR. ZEC:  But --

16             JUDGE KWON:  That's your analysis?

17             MR. ZEC:  Exactly.  You would have to go back to the original

18     log-book and you will be able to see that.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And then you may put the question to the Doctor.

20             MR. ZEC:

21        Q.   So, Doctor, were you aware that almost by the end of May there

22     were almost no non-Serb patients received at the hospital?

23        A.   Ill persons and wounded persons go to hospital, not Serbs and

24     Muslims, first and foremost.  Secondly, I said for 268 ill persons, if

25     you will, patients, Muslims, ethnic Muslims, they were treated in 1992.

Page 35613

 1     They were admitted from April until September and discharged as they

 2     would be cured throughout 1992, except for those seven children who

 3     stayed behind and in 1993 we took them to Igalo.  Certainly the war in

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the war operations did have an effect in terms

 5     of where patients would decide where they thought that they could find

 6     the best medical treatment for them.  So if you're just looking at the

 7     ethnic background and how sharp the decline was per month, well certainly

 8     people wouldn't want to go to hospital where they could get in trouble if

 9     it's, say, Serb-controlled territory.  So I don't know about those

10     patients and what the truth is.

11             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I would offer these charts into evidence

12     so you can look at them and compare against the original log-books.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm opposed to that.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Did you want to say something, Dr. Maric?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have documents

17     that were photocopied.  That's the only thing I can see.  As for these

18     tables, I accept them just because I'm sitting here but I cannot accept

19     them as documents.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I take it this is a summary analysis from the

21     original document.  You can use it as your supplementary material when

22     you make your submissions instead of tendering it as a separate exhibit.

23             MR. ZEC:  That's fair.  I can --

24             JUDGE KWON:  I will -- just -- I haven't heard from the Defence.

25             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 35614

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that's my position also.  It's a tool for

 2     argument, not a matter for evidence.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, but I was involved in an

 6     earlier exchange where -- and Mr. Zec has been very polite about not

 7     referencing this, we tried to seek an agreement or an understanding or

 8     stipulation from the Defence about the original logs and the ethnicity of

 9     the names of the patients who appeared there, which seemed a pretty

10     reasonable request when that's the focus of this submission by the

11     Defence in the first place.  But inexplicably they refused, which one

12     could consider to be an effort to have us press up against the time

13     allocations and Mr. Zec tried to deal with it as effectively as he could

14     under the circumstances, but I noted that there was -- there seemed to be

15     some implied criticism of Mr. Zec for trying to take this approach under

16     the circumstances which would have been obviated with a little bit of

17     comity, that is, with agreement from the Defence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  For example, in order to admit this one, witness

19     should have confirmed each item which is Serb or not.  We didn't go

20     through this document and the Defence is opposing.  It's not in

21     agreement, so what's the basis that we can admit it?  We can use it as

22     your submission --

23             MR. TIEGER:  I understand the Court.  I wasn't arguing with the

24     position the Court now feel forced to take, but I was suggesting that I

25     think unreasonably, especially given the basis for which these logs were

Page 35615

 1     tendered, that the Defence refused to acknowledge what Mr. Zec was trying

 2     to point out and that if we had sufficient time could have been done

 3     directly with the witness.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  While the Chamber has the sympathy with the points

 6     raised by Mr. Tieger, but under the circumstances we'll not admit this.

 7     Let's proceed.

 8             MR. ZEC:  Yeah, so, Mr. President, just to make my point, perhaps

 9     we can show the last page of the log-book, that is, 1D07239 and you can

10     follow also at the last page of the chart, there's page 39.  And there

11     are ten entries here at the chart, and I will ask the witness to go

12     through --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's upload that one, Exhibit D3130.  Let's

14     switch to the e-court.  I don't think there's an English page.

15             MR. ZEC:  There is no English.  I don't believe that we have

16     correct log-book in B/C/S.  So I have 1D --

17             JUDGE KWON:  I think we do.  It's page 40 of that exhibit.

18             MR. ZEC:  Can we -- so is that page 40?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that is the last page, and the

20     exhibit was MFI'd for that reason that we don't have a full translation.

21             MR. ZEC:  I understand because we asked the Defence to remove

22     page 40 because it's unrelated, so we need page 39.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for this page number 40, we

24     tendered it as a separate document and it has been admitted as a separate

25     document and its removal had been requested now.

Page 35616

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I remember that.

 2             MR. ZEC:  So now, Mr. President, this page, page 39 in B/C/S,

 3     contains entries from item number 2931 to 2940.  And you can find it on

 4     the last page of the chart.

 5        Q.   So, Mr. Maric, Dr. Maric, can you read the names and tell us

 6     their ethnicity?

 7        A.   I cannot.  I cannot see this well.

 8        Q.   Can we perhaps if Doctor cannot --

 9        A.   I can see -- well, I can read this.  It's some page from the

10     protocol.  It starts with 2.931.  I cannot see this first one Brod, Foca,

11     Maglic, then Skipina, probably Pavlovic, Vukovic, then the eye

12     department.  The second column are the departments where they were

13     admitted probably, probably the Loktic [phoen] --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please try to read the names on the end and tell us

15     whether they are Serbs or Muslims, if you could.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are Serbs.

17             MR. ZEC:

18        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Maric.

19             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I can go every page, but we have simply

20     no time and I can conclude at this point.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, Excellencies, before the

23     break, can I call up page 38 just one page before this?

24             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no.  How much do you need for your

25     re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?  Is that the only question for you?

Page 35617

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no, I would need some 10 or

 2     15 minutes, but since it's fresh in our minds I would like to show how

 3     the Prosecution selectively chooses its pages.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Well then please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 38, please, of this same

 6     document.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But it's -- we have no problem with the -- you

 8     showing the witness but your comment is improper.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not going to affect the

10     witness.  Please.  This has to do with facts and facts are obstinate.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation]  Dr. Maric, are all these people Serbs?  And who

13     is not a Serb, could you please give us the name of that person.  This is

14     the 21st of May, 1992.

15        A.   [Microphone not activated]

16        Q.   I think you haven't got your microphone on.

17        A.   Number 2927, that's a Muslim, a Muslim woman,

18     Mejra Murat [phoen].

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll the page down --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec.

21             MR. ZEC:  Only to note for the record that these two names, these

22     two entries that Doctor just read are not in the chart as of Serb

23     patients and so -- this page 38 contains only eight names out of ten and

24     this is what we asked the Defence on Friday if we could agree on so this

25     wouldn't be an issue at all in court today.

Page 35618

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow.  Eight names out of ten?

 2             MR. ZEC:  Correct.  Because on page 38 Doctor just read two names

 3     as Muslim patients.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But how -- where do you have eight in your chart?

 5     Ah, yes, in -- it's last page.

 6             MR. ZEC:  I'm sorry, correct.  Last page and you should follow

 7     this row 38.  That's the page, 38, that we are just looking at.  And

 8     Doctor read two names, two entries, 2927, 2929, as Muslim names and they

 9     are not in this chart.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Without your explanation, it's very difficult to

11     follow.  Now I see the point.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Dr. Maric, to the best of your knowledge, on the 21st of May was

15     a Muslim returned and were these -- when these two Muslims were admitted?

16        A.   No.  I repeat yet again, throughout 1992 Muslims were treated,

17     patients of Muslim ethnicity were treated in the hospital in Foca and

18     were then discharged.  They were admitted until September.  I do not see

19     the records now for after September that year.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Doctor.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's time for the break then I'm

22     going to continue with the rest after the break or should I continue now?

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for 45 minutes.  Before that --

24     yes, Mr. Robinson.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Sorry, Mr. President, I neglected to

Page 35619

 1     introduce our intern, Alice Yang, from Taiwan who's been with us during

 2     this session.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll resume at 1.25.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.26 p.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'd like to introduce

 9     Pauline Wilson of Australia who is a legal intern with our team and will

10     be joining us during this session.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14             Could we please have, for example, in this -- the first page in

15     this document.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Could I please ask you to read out the names of the Muslims of

18     the ten persons listed here, or you can say the numbers as well.

19        A.   2561, 2562, 2566, 2567, 2569, and 2570.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can we please see the following page --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you read out the name of --

22     under number 2561.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gogic, Ivanka.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Is he Serb or Muslim?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging by the last name, yes, but

Page 35620

 1     judging by the first name, no.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

 3             MR. ZEC:  If any of the assistance, in the translation page 1

 4     it's Jovanka Gogic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Why did you say for Gogic, are the Gogic's Muslims?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the next page.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Could I ask you once again just to read out the numbers, please.

13        A.   2551, 2552, 2553, 2554, 2556, and 2560.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I won't go further into this.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But just a second, could we also

16     please have just one more page, please, the next one.  If that was number

17     60 then it has to be more than that.  Just a second, 60 -- it should

18     begin with 2571.  Yes, that's the one.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Can you also read out the names --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The numbers.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   -- again where the patients are ethnic Muslims and what these

24     dates are.  The 4th of July, that's up until when you kept the last one

25     at hospital; correct?

Page 35621

 1        A.   Yes, the 4th of July, 80 -- no, these are the days, not the year,

 2     1997 but 87 days.

 3        Q.   Can you please read out the numbers which referred to, I think,

 4     Muslim patients.

 5        A.   2572, 2573, 2574, 2575, 2576, 2577, 2578.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So, Dr. Maric, once again I wish to ask you the

 7     following:  Did you ever, you or someone from your service, send back an

 8     ethnic Muslim or made any sort of difference in terms of treatment?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have the statement.

12             And if you can please help me, this statement of this little

13     Kemal which was quoted.  I would like to have that in e-court, please.

14             MR. ZEC:  It is 65 ter 24774.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank Mr. Zec.  Can we please see

16     that in e-court and I would need the last page, please.  The one-but-last

17     then, please, the penultimate page.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   As we only have this in English, I will now read this out to you.

20     It says in third line from above:

21             [In English] "I heard that she was later taken to a place where

22     many women were raped ..."

23             [Interpretation] And then it goes on.  And this has to do with

24     the hospital:

25             [In English] "At the hospital, we were generally treated well.

Page 35622

 1     But there was one female doctor who used to beat up children.  I do not

 2     recall her name.  She was elderly, very thin, had black hair and wore

 3     glasses."

 4             [Interpretation] And generally speaking, how does this correspond

 5     with your impressions that they were generally treated well, and was

 6     there a thin doctor wearing glasses who was beating children?

 7        A.   No, no.

 8        Q.   Could it have been somebody else who was a staff member?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   What did the patients get as food?

11        A.   In the beginning from the 8th of April, as at least 500 civilians

12     had entered the hospital complex, the patients and the staff, we all

13     shared whatever we had in our supplies at the hospital depot.  And

14     whatever was served to the patients was also the food provided to any

15     staff who were in the hospital and the situation was like that for the

16     first ten days.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us this, on page 59 you were asked today

18     and it was suggested to you that examinations were carried out by group.

19     Can you tell me if there is some doctor's activity at a hospital where

20     something is done with a group of patients, usually in the morning?

21        A.   Well, not in a group, but these are visits, the rounds, where we

22     as the doctors do the rounds of the hospital and see all individual

23     patients.  Then we analyse the information and this is the only thing I

24     know about that is done as a group.

25        Q.   What was described to you as a group examination, how would you

Page 35623

 1     fit that in the practice of the hospital?

 2        A.   Well, I couldn't fit it in.  Perhaps these were some

 3     psychological tests, if some psychologists did some tests jointly and

 4     then you would have a group of people who are given one and the same task

 5     and they are trying to do it.  Apart from that, I could not imagine a

 6     doctor examining a number of people at the same time.  In view of our

 7     obligation with regard to the protection and protecting the intimacy of

 8     the patients, they cannot be allowed to look at one another.

 9        Q.   Can you please describe to the Trial Chamber how does the morning

10     round look, where are the patients and where is the medical staff and the

11     doctor's team?

12        A.   The chief of service leads the team of his doctors together with

13     the nurses who are in charge of these patients.  The patients are in the

14     rooms in their beds waiting for the rounds, and the round lasts depending

15     on the specific problems that have to be dealt with and the illnesses in

16     question.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us whether all the Muslims the

18     medical staff orderlies and doctors were arrested and taken to the

19     KP Dom?

20        A.   No.  Rather, all of us together as there were few of us, both of

21     us, the Serbs and the Muslims, the gynaecologist, were my assistant as I

22     am a general surgeon and worked in all departments and sections and

23     admitted the injured and the ill people because our capacities were

24     small.  Today, the university hospital had 100 specialist doctors and

25     then there were barely 20 of us.

Page 35624

 1        Q.   Thank you.  What would then be the basis for several people who

 2     are mentioned here, Ibrahim Karovic, and, I don't know, a few others to

 3     be taken into custody?  Was it on account of their religion, profession,

 4     or was it a third factor?

 5        A.   Probably, though I don't know and I cannot accept that it could

 6     have been profession because we were -- perhaps something that's equal to

 7     all people, perhaps something third, if there was something.  If there

 8     wasn't, well, they would know.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  On page 57, or rather, 51 in line 10 of today's

10     transcript, you were asked something and then the following question was

11     whether you remembered and you said "no, no, no."  Let me read that out

12     to you.  What does that refer to, this "no, no, no"?  We have to clarify

13     this.  I apologise.  Page 51, here it is, line 10.  From line 7 the

14     question is:

15             [In English] If these particular persons were present, do you

16     recall, for example, Colonel Marko Kovac being there, commander of the

17     tactical group Foca?"

18             Your answer is:

19             "No, no, no, no."

20             [Interpretation] Did you answer that Kovac was not present or was

21     it an answer to this part of the question asking you whether you

22     remember?

23        A.   I don't remember and this is why I said that.  And I answered to

24     that effect, no, no, because 20 years later I do not remember whether I

25     met someone at a specific place or said something at a specific place.

Page 35625

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Some parts of the political discussion in the

 2     parliament were also quoted to you and specifically the words of

 3     Mr. Petko Cancar.  I wanted to ask you something about the Mujezins.  Was

 4     there some disagreement about the loud tone used in loud-speakers when

 5     they would play this and did this bother one or the other group?

 6        A.   At the beginning of the war, perhaps on the first two or three

 7     days, Radio Foca was abused and Semso Tucakovic, who was the director,

 8     abused it, and he informed us as the citizens that around 5- to 6.000

 9     armed men were entering the town and threatening in particular the Muslim

10     population, which caused panic among the people.  It was easiest to find

11     refuge with us at the hospital because we provided shelter to everyone

12     and so many people - I don't know the exact number - but about 500 people

13     or perhaps up to 800 people came to the hospital and stayed within the

14     hospital complex at the beginning of the war, that is to say in early

15     April.

16        Q.   Thank you.  On page 50 someone was quoted as saying what sort of

17     messages were arriving from Foca and that it was supposed to be turned

18     into another Mecca.  Can you tell us whether you know what this was based

19     on, what the deputy said about the messages from Foca?  Had there been

20     anything from the beginning of the multi-party system which could have

21     been interpreted as a message coming from Foca?

22        A.   There was a big rally in Foca during the election campaign, so

23     probably the great numbers of people who attended and who arrived in Foca

24     from all around was a sign based on which someone could have drawn such a

25     conclusion.  In the archives of Foca town there are documents about the

Page 35626

 1     building of one of the centres which was supposed to be high educational

 2     institution that would be devoted only to one ethnic group.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I know you said that you didn't study political

 4     issues, but as you were a deputy were you aware that there were ongoing

 5     negotiations about establishing two municipalities within Foca?

 6        A.   Well, we have two municipalities and that idea --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before you continue.

 8             Yes, Mr. Zec.

 9             MR. ZEC:  This goes beyond cross-examination.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Correct.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.  I'm laying the groundwork

12     for my question and the question is in reference to what Mr. Zec said,

13     that there is not a single Muslim left in Foca.  You should have a little

14     faith in me.  I'm not so inexperienced anymore.  It's been three years.

15     In fact, I've been sitting in the courtroom for a year.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You were told here that somebody had said there were no more

18     Muslims in Foca.  Is it the case there were no Muslims in Foca and did

19     the Serbs control all of Foca?

20        A.   There is Foca Ustikolina and Foca proper, that's the Foca as it

21     was before the war.  Foca Ustikolina is populated by Muslims and the

22     Serbs live in Foca, and that works well.  We divided right at the

23     beginning.  So if you look at the entire municipality that Foca covered,

24     had the same numbers of people as on that day.

25        Q.   In the Serbian Foca are there any Muslims?  Were there any during

Page 35627

 1     the war?

 2        A.   Well, I said judging by my patients there were Muslims and

 3     judging by the number of patients there should be the corresponding

 4     number of families, at least the patients from Foca had families in

 5     there.

 6        Q.   The witness said that there are Muslims to date in the Serbian

 7     part of Foca.

 8             Did you say that there are Muslims in Foca?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you very much, Dr. Maric, for coming to testify.  Just one

11     more question.  You said that I supported you.  Did anyone from the

12     authorities reproach you for your unbiased treatment of Muslim civilians

13     and Muslim injured and wounded?

14        A.   As a physician and later as the director of the hospital, I had

15     an exceptionally good co-operation with the local authorities.  I want to

16     say it was not just lip service.  In 1992 we were already preparing

17     premises and apartments and we were finishing building for the university

18     to start in Foca.  And it is thanks to that and all our efforts despite

19     the war that Foca today has over 2.000 students.  As for the authorities,

20     they never pressured me.  As head of the hospital I had a

21     misunderstanding with them at a point in time when the town did not have

22     its own morgue and the army did not have a morgue, and they were using

23     hospital premises.  And when there were battles with big loss of life,

24     such as the battle at Josanica, there were many dead, and the military

25     authorities had no understanding for our limitation of our capacities.

Page 35628

 1     You have to receive the bodies, make all the records, et cetera, and they

 2     couldn't understand why we couldn't do it fast enough, meeting all their

 3     demands and requirements.  That's what I have against the military

 4     authorities.

 5        Q.   What about the civilian authorities, myself and the minister of

 6     health, how did they view the fact that you did not distinguish between

 7     the Serb wounded and the Muslim wounded?

 8        A.   With approval --

 9             MR. ZEC:  I wonder, Mr. President, whether we still again go

10     beyond cross-examination.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree, Mr. Zec.  Unless you have further

12     questions, please conclude.  You almost said thank you to the Doctor.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I do, Your Excellency.  This

14     featured also in cross-examination.  There was the question of names and

15     lists.  I want to see where he ended up after treatment.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can I ask you, what did the Serbs do with the captured Muslim

18     wounded?  Where did they bring them?

19        A.   They brought them to our hospital for treatment.  They brought

20     them to us.  I said in my previous answers that all the prisoners,

21     captives, if they needed to be treated, were treated at the hospital and

22     kept there as long as they needed.

23        Q.   And after treatment, where does such a patient go?

24        A.   He would be discharged to the hospital or back to whoever brought

25     them.

Page 35629

 1        Q.   So a captive would be treated and then discharged and returned.

 2     Thank you, Dr. Maric.  I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Dr. Maric.  That concludes your evidence.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  On behalf of this Chamber, I would like to thank you

 6     for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, while we are waiting for the next

10     witness, I would like to receive your expedited response as well with

11     respect to the accused's motion for disclosure of records pertaining to

12     Milan Babic by close of Wednesday.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Very well, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, with respect to the appeal by

16     Milan Martic, we also would be making submissions.  We didn't receive

17     anything until this morning also, so I assume it's okay for us to make

18     those by the close of business tomorrow.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

22     please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  CVIJETIN SIMIC

Page 35630

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Simic.  Please be seated.  Make

 3     yourself comfortable, please.

 4             Do you hear me in the language you understand, Mr. Simic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Simic, I must

 7     draw your attention to a certain rule of procedure and evidence that we

 8     have here at the international Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this

 9     rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the

10     Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer

11     might incriminate you.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

12     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

13     offence or saying something that might provide evidence you might have

14     committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an answer

15     might incriminate you, and as a consequence you refuse to answer the

16     question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel

17     you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal would

18     ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not

19     be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence except

20     and save the offence of giving false testimony.  Do you understand what I

21     have just told you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 35631

 1                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could we speak at a moderate rate so that they may be recorded,

 9     and between my question and your answer let us make a short pause, that

10     is to say wait for the cursor to stop.

11             Did you, Mr. Simic, give a statement to my Defence team?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court 1D7930.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that due to the upgrading of the e-court

17     system, we are not at the moment able to see the document.  But given

18     that the witness has his statement with him, why don't we proceed with

19     the hard copies if the Prosecution is not opposed to it.

20             MR. TIEGER:  That should be fine, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, this turbo

23     process works with technology from the previous century.  We should do

24     something about it.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 35632

 1        Q.   Can I ask you to look at your statement and confirm that that is,

 2     indeed, the statement you have given us and tell us how you read it.

 3     Have you signed it?

 4        A.   This is the statement I brought with me, yes, I did sign it.

 5        Q.   Does that statement faithfully reflect what you told the Defence

 6     team?

 7        A.   Yes, it does.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put to you the same questions in the

 9     courtroom today as my Defence team has before me, would they be the same?

10        A.   Yes, they would.  But there is a small mistake.  In point 16 of

11     the corrigendum it's not "1992," it's "1991."

12        Q.   So point 16 should read "mid-November 1991"?

13        A.   That's correct, not 1992.

14        Q.   It's now on record.  Are there any more corrections?

15        A.   Well, ...

16        Q.   Does the rest correspond to what you said?

17        A.   There is one point that is not quite clear, but it's fine.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Which part is unclear, Mr. Simic?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need a minute to find it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Please take your time, Mr. Simic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 39, the last paragraph, all

24     were armed and in civilian clothing.  The word "and" should not be there.

25     It's suffices to delete the "i."

Page 35633

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can I ask you, did I understand this correctly.  All who were

 3     there were in civilians clothing and some of them only were armed, but

 4     even those armed wore civilian clothing?

 5        A.   Yes, because currently you could understand that everybody was

 6     armed.

 7        Q.   The rest is exactly what you said?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

11     92 ter.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, there's also one associated

13     exhibit which is 1D15014 that was not on our 65 ter list, as we had not

14     interviewed this witness at the time that this was filed so we would ask

15     that that be added and admitted.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Tieger?

17             MR. TIEGER:  I've already identified my objections to

18     paragraph 36 which I understood was going to be redacted.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, paragraph 36 --

20             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think I heard that in a serious sense.

21     What's the line of your objection, Mr. Tieger?

22             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, if I can note the Trial Chamber asked

23     us earlier to provide the Chamber with advance notice

24     of [overlapping speakers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  I know there was something but I didn't have --

Page 35634

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Okay, sorry.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  -- time to read it.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  The objection was that the entire paragraph is

 4     simply in reference to a document which has not been translated and which

 5     we did not receive.  So it no longer -- in that respect it's no longer

 6     apposite.  So on that basis alone I made the objection.  I might have

 7     gone on under other circumstances to note that it appears to be

 8     commentary about a document that has -- is not linked to -- in any way to

 9     the witness's personal knowledge and about which he could not offer

10     elucidation from his own experience, but instead commented -- analysed

11     the document.  So for a number of reasons that would have been subject to

12     redaction, but I understood from the Defence that in light of the

13     translation issue they were prepared to agree with the objection and

14     redact the paragraph.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Since the document has to be

16     led live in any event, then it's not necessary that the paragraph remain

17     in there and the same information will be -- or can be elicited by

18     Dr. Karadzic live.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, and --

20             JUDGE KWON:  But the issue remains whether this witness is an

21     appropriate person to deal with this document and whether this is

22     admissible after having heard the evidence?

23             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.  And my e-mail also noted that the

24     length of the document was such that I considered that it would be so

25     handicapped in not being able to grasp the totality of the evidence that

Page 35635

 1     was being discussed in part, that I thought it wasn't appropriate to --

 2     an appropriate option to simply lead it live given the length.  But I

 3     know the Chamber often wants to hear it, but I didn't want to acquiesce

 4     in that without noting what I had said in the e-mail.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see how it evolves, Mr. Tieger.

 6             Yes, we'll admit the Rule 92 ter statement as well as the

 7     associated exhibit.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Those will be Exhibits D3133 and Exhibit D3134

 9     respectively, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read a short

11     summary of Mr. Cvijetin Simic's statement and then I will present an

12     exhibit that's already in evidence which is in accord with this

13     associated exhibit and lead some of this live.  I will read in English.

14             [In English] Cvijetin Simic was born on 24th of January, 1958, in

15     Bijeljina and currently resides in the village of Velika Obarska.  He was

16     the president of the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly.

17             The SDS party was established following the formation of the SDA

18     and the HDZ, when it became clear that organising politically was the

19     only way for the Serbian people in BiH to protect their own interests.

20     The HDZ and the SDA acted exclusively in the interests of the Croat and

21     Muslims respectively and the latter in particular worked to incite

22     interethnic intolerance in Bijeljina.

23             In November 1990, the Bijeljina local authority was formed on the

24     basis of the election results.  Although the SDS clearly won these

25     elections, a coalition was formed with the SDA to protect and improve

Page 35636

 1     interethnic relations in the municipality.  During this period, groups of

 2     Muslims were crossing to Croatia to join paramilitary organisations and

 3     fight against the JNA units.

 4             In September 1991 the JNA mobilised in Bijeljina.  The SDA

 5     leaders successfully encouraged the Muslim population to ignore call-ups,

 6     whereas the Serbian -- Serbs in Bijeljina responded.  This explains the

 7     interethnic composition of the JNA at this time.  Relations between Serbs

 8     and Muslims deteriorated significantly in this period.  SDA authorities

 9     co-ordinated the illegal delivery of weapons from Croatia and the arming

10     of the Muslim population.  Illegal, armed groups of Muslims began to form

11     in the municipality.

12             The authorities of Bijeljina Municipal Assembly were against all

13     illegal organisations.  When a group of officers from the Bijeljina

14     garrison secretly distributed weapons to civilians they were stopped, the

15     weapons returned, and the instigators punished.  When on

16     15th of October, 1991, the Muslim and Croat leadership in BH voted to

17     withdraw from Yugoslavia, the SDS began to form Serbian autonomous

18     districts.  The aim of these districts was always to bring normalcy to

19     the lives of the civilians where possible.

20             The political differences between Muslims and Serbs and the

21     extremely deteriorated ethnic relations led to open conflicts between the

22     parties.  The Bijeljina Municipal Assembly was committed to and sincere

23     in maintaining peace in the municipality.  When, for instance, a Serb

24     threw a bomb on a Muslim cafe, senior Serb officials in

25     Bijeljina Municipal Assembly carried out a thorough investigation of the

Page 35637

 1     incident and the perpetrator was imprisoned.

 2             In late March 1992, Muslim formations instigated a general

 3     blockade of Bijeljina and it was clear these activities had been planned

 4     in advance.  By the 1st of April, street battles were -- had broken out

 5     throughout the town.  Mr. Cvijetin Simic was barricaded and threatened

 6     and came to the conclusion that these activities were organised by SDA

 7     leaders.  At a meeting to resolve the conflict that Cvijetin Simic

 8     attended, the SDA president refused to disarm the Muslim population and

 9     lift the barricades unless UN observers first came to the city.

10             Mr. Cvijetin Simic concluded that the SDA leadership wished to

11     continue the conflict as long as possible in order to accomplish their

12     political and military aims.  On April the 2nd, armed Muslims took

13     control of the hospital and civilians were prevented from receiving

14     medical care.  The Muslim-controlled state media meanwhile put out false

15     reports and propaganda alleging falsely that Serbs attacked Muslims in

16     Bijeljina; there had been thousands of Muslim fatalities.  Throughout

17     this period the Bijeljina municipality assembly operated transparently.

18     There was no need to form parallel institutions of authority, and hence

19     the Crisis Staff did not adopt any decision and Cvijetin Simic was not a

20     member of any Crisis Staff.

21             Mr. Simic and his colleagues in Bijeljina municipality worked

22     always with the aim of normalising life and work for all citizens.

23     Paramilitary organisations were not tolerated.  On the other hand, Muslim

24     leaders such as Hasan Tiric organised attacks on the legitimate organs of

25     authority in the municipality.

Page 35638

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I should now like to ask you -- you mentioned Mr. Tiric.  Do you

 3     have firsthand knowledge of Mr. Tiric and his actions?

 4        A.   I have --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second -- yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Let's try to keep the record straight.  He actually

 7     didn't mention Mr. Tiric, that's in the redacted portion of the

 8     statement.  But ...

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Now I see the point.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I still don't understand why this

12     would be redacted.  This is already in evidence and we have displayed it

13     before.

14             JUDGE KWON:  You agreed to redact it, but here already -- no,

15     could you reformulate your question.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Simic, it was your impression that what happened on the

18     evening of the 1st -- 31st of March was well-organised and synchronised.

19     Could you tell us by whom and who was the most prominent leader of those

20     units that took over the town?

21        A.   During those days, as I described in my statement, I passed

22     several of those roadblocks set up by armed Muslim persons.  It was quite

23     obvious.  We later even asked for a meeting of the National

24     Defence Council in Bijeljina, I mentioned that in my statement, on the

25     1st of April.  Out of the Muslim representatives, there was the president

Page 35639

 1     of the SDA, the TO staff commander, and I believe one deputy to the

 2     Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, a Muslim.  And from those meetings and

 3     from the times I passed through the town, I was able to conclude that

 4     these roadblocks and this take-over was organised by the SDA, the

 5     Party of Democratic Action.  At that time I did not know yet who the main

 6     organisers were, and that's why I tried with the president of the party,

 7     whose name was Zenaid, I believe, to solve these problems.

 8             However, a few days later in the Croatian media there appeared

 9     reports that were taken over by our media where Mr. Tiric is named as the

10     leader and he was calling upon those who had left, his fighting men, to

11     come back and take Bijeljina back.  That was reported by the Croatian

12     media and those reports were reprinted by our own media and all over

13     Yugoslavia.

14             In 1993 and 1994 and also in 1992 there was an investigation

15     concerning this armed insurgency and these problems in the town.  And 60

16     to 70 witness statements were collected during the investigation that I

17     didn't see at the time, but I found out later.  And these statements

18     helped shed light on who organised this insurgency in Bijeljina.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see D01608, please, in

20     e-court.  There's also a translation.  This is a document that's been

21     admitted.

22        Q.   Please take a look at this first paragraph.  Which formation is

23     involved and who is mentioned as being the commander?  First of all, let

24     me introduce this document.  This is a document of the

25     Ministry of Defence of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  The date

Page 35640

 1     is the 9th of May, 1996, and they are providing information about

 2     Crni Labudovi, the Black Swans.  What do you know about the Black Swans?

 3        A.   I don't know much.  I know that it was a special unit, I think,

 4     in Zivinice in the Federation of BH.

 5        Q.   Then in the first paragraph --

 6        A.   I see here that their intention is to take Bijeljina.  We did not

 7     know then that that is what they were called.

 8        Q.   I see.  So the official date of the establishment of the unit is

 9     the 31st of March, 1992.  On that day, acting on orders from

10     Vahid Karavelic and the mentioned Captain Swan, Hasan Tiric, the present

11     commander of the Black Swans unit and about 15 members of the

12     Patriotic League found themselves in Bijeljina with the task of forming a

13     special purposes unit, and at that time he allegedly was to oppose the

14     VRS forces in their attempt to take Bijeljina.  How does this tally with

15     what you know about the beginning of the conflict in Bijeljina?

16        A.   Well --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just before you answer.

18             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Well, everything we've heard from the witness so far

20     is that he wasn't aware of this type of information at the time.  He's

21     been candid with us about that, to his credit.  Why Dr. Karadzic now

22     chooses to trot out this document and run a kind of history channel

23     educational effort with this witness is beyond me and is not a productive

24     use of his time.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, the witness

Page 35641

 1     said that he didn't know that that is what they were called.  I'm

 2     interested in what the witness knows, how this fits into his knowledge as

 3     to how and who started the conflict in Bijeljina.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  Since the -- from

 5     previous page, lines 24, to page 96, line 20, the witness said some words

 6     which seems to be related to this.  On that basis we'll allow the witness

 7     to answer the question.

 8             Yes, Mr. Simic.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this statement that I gave, I

10     presented my view and my knowledge as to what was happening on the ground

11     in town itself.  And in view of the attempts to find a solution on the

12     1st and 2nd of April, I said that according to the information that we

13     had and the information that was broadcast in the media afterwards,

14     Hasan Tiric appeared as the leader of this rebellion in Bijeljina as the

15     organiser.  But I did not know, as I've said here, that the name of this

16     unit was -- what was it?  The Black Swans.  I think that as far as what

17     basically happened on the ground is concerned, it corresponds to what is

18     written here.  I mean, if I'm saying it corresponds to that, let me add

19     something.  On the 31st of -- on the evening of the 31st, these

20     activities related to an armed rebellion started.  This sentence is

21     incorrect, oppose the Army of Republika Srpska, attempt to take

22     Bijeljina.  The VRS had no intention to take Bijeljina and I don't see

23     why they would do it and from whom they would take it.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   The Army of Republika Srpska, did it exist on the 31st of March?

Page 35642

 1        A.   No.  At that time there were units of the JNA in Bijeljina.  The

 2     Army of Republika Srpska was established sometime at the end of May,

 3     something like that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Bearing in mind your experience and this report of

 5     the Croatian intelligence service, do you have any doubts as to who it

 6     was who started the war and who came first, Arkan or Tiric?

 7        A.   No --

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Objection.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No.  You can ask the witness if he knows but not

10     based upon this document.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you confirm, or rather, how does this document fit into your

13     own knowledge about the essence of what happened there?  I asked you

14     about that and you confirmed.

15        A.   Yes, I've already said that as far as events are concerned, this

16     is correct.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have any doubt as to who it was that started

18     the war in Bijeljina?

19             MR. TIEGER:  I'm going to object again.  This is a fact witness

20     and Dr. Karadzic is trying to transform him into somebody from he's

21     seeking not-helpful opinions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Please move on to your next topic, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

24     questions at this point in time for Mr. Simic.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

Page 35643

 1             Mr. Simic, your evidence in chief in this case has been admitted

 2     in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  And now you will be

 3     cross-examined by the Prosecutor, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

 6        Q.   Mr. Simic, let me begin with paragraph 12 of your statement,

 7     which mentions the October 15th session of the joint Assembly in Bosnia

 8     and Herzegovina, which as you indicated adopted the enactment confirming

 9     the sovereignty of the republic of BH.  And then you said in your

10     paragraph:

11             "After this the SDS started forming Serbian autonomous districts

12     in response to the activities of the SDA and HDZ in BH."

13             Mr. Simic, did -- were you aware of a large plenary session on

14     the 7th of September, 1991, at which decisions were taken on the next

15     steps regarding regionalisation?  As one person put it:

16             "We'll split into Serbian Bosnia, Croat Bosnia,

17     Muslim Bosnia ..."

18             Were you aware of that meeting in early September 1991 about

19     regionalisation?  And that's a meeting of the SDS, sir.

20        A.   I don't know now.  I cannot remember exactly right now.  There

21     were meetings, several meetings.  I don't know the dates.

22        Q.   Mr. --

23             MR. TIEGER:  For benefit of the Court and the Defence, those

24     references can be found at P2530, 2544, and 2545.

25        Q.   Well, Mr. Simic, you may not recall that particular meeting, but

Page 35644

 1     did you miss the fact that in September of 1991 numerous SAOs were

 2     declared, that is, a month before what you told the Court in paragraph 12

 3     was the trigger for the establishment of those bodies?  And I'm referring

 4     specifically, for example, to SAO Herzegovina on the

 5     12th of September, 1991; the Autonomous Region of Krajina on 16

 6     September 1991; SAO north-Eastern Bosnia on 19 September 1991.  Those

 7     events took place a month before or the month before what you claim to

 8     this Trial Chamber was the trigger for their formation.

 9        A.   I have documents, I don't know which documents the OTP has, but

10     on the 28th of October, 1991, the Assembly of the region of

11     North-East Bosnia was established.  I think that it was perhaps on the

12     25th of October that the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina reached a

13     decision to accede to this agreement on regional organisation.  On the

14     basis of that decision of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, I signed

15     this agreement on the establishment of this autonomous region of

16     North-East Bosnia and I think that this was on the 28th of October.  As

17     for these other regions, I did not take part in that and I wasn't really

18     in charge of that -- well, now I may try to remember when it happened.

19     But that wouldn't really matter.

20        Q.   So your position then, Mr. Simic, is that you're aware of or

21     claim to be aware of the one -- of a regional formation that you were

22     involved with, but accept that there was -- that the formation or

23     establishment of SAOs elsewhere took place prior to that, correct, if

24     that's what the evidence in this court shows?

25        A.   Well, you said to me whether my information was correct, my

Page 35645

 1     statement, that on the 28th this region of North-East Bosnia was

 2     established.  If that is correct, I think that the question -- well, I

 3     mean, I have documents and I can present them to you that that is when it

 4     was established.  If you have something saying that it was established

 5     before that, let me see it.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   Yeah, we're going to take a look at that, but I'm going to move

 7     on for a moment in the interest of time, but we will return to that, the

 8     establishment of those municipalities.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  And, by the way, for benefit of the Court those

10     references can be found at P2536, pages 81 through 82.

11        Q.   Mr. Simic, do you -- with respect to the establishment of those

12     formations, you were aware that the purpose of the establishment of SAOs

13     was considered by many members or by certain members of the SDS to

14     destroy a unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina; correct?  And that is what

15     Bosnian Serb officials said in official forums at the time?

16        A.   I can take part in a discussion on the basis of the documents

17     that we adopted and discussed at the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, and

18     it clearly says there what the objective of the organisation is, what the

19     competences are, what the work is in this planned region.  I mean, who

20     said what where, I cannot comment on all of that.  As I said, in the

21     decision to accede to the agreement on the establishment of the region of

22     North-East Bosnia, all the tasks, all the objectives, are stated there

23     and I believe that you have that document as well.  The objective was not

24     to break up Bosnia and Herzegovina in that part, perhaps some

25     decentralisation in some of the work involved; that is not stated in the

Page 35646

 1     documents that you referred to.

 2        Q.   And the documents that I referred to, just to name a couple, are

 3     D456 at page 68, referring to the creation of the SAOs and districts; and

 4     D456 at page 70.  You did speak about the function in the SAOs and I

 5     wanted to ask you about a couple of documents in connection with that.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  If we could call up 65 ter 24793.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, while we're doing that I would

 8     like to raise an issue, this is now the second time that this has

 9     occurred, and that is that Prosecution has notified us that during this

10     one-hour cross-examination they've given us a list of 51 potential

11     exhibits.  And of course you know that that list, pursuant to your order,

12     is only given to us when the cross-examination starts.  There's no way

13     that the Prosecution can use 51 documents in an hour, and so this kind of

14     notice puts us at a big disadvantage to be trying to go through 51

15     documents during Mr. Tieger's cross-examination to guess which one he's

16     going to use.  And I think that that's not fair.  So I would ask that you

17     either order the Prosecution to give us notice 24 hours in advance of the

18     cross-examination or that you require the Prosecutor to be more focused

19     and give us notice of the documents he truly expects to use if they're

20     going to be doing it at this late stage.

21             MR. TIEGER:  This did not need to be hashed out here.  If

22     Mr. Robinson wanted to address that, we can talk about that.  Listed on

23     that notice are documents I intended to simply refer to by way of

24     information that the Court has received, and out of courtesy alert the

25     Defence to it.  If that doesn't help, and I can understand that

Page 35647

 1     Mr. Robinson may want to parse through that, we can do that in two

 2     different ways.  But that can be adjusted as needed.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's proceed.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 5        Q.   Mr. Simic, we have on the screen right now is -- should be 24793.

 6        A.   23765.

 7        Q.   This is a document that is dated -- should be dated the

 8     13th of April and then also the 21st of April, as you will see.  It's a

 9     request for an urgent reply and implementation of the decision of the

10     Executive Council of the Semberija and Majevica SAO.  And does this

11     accurately reflect, insofar as you are aware, because you did talk about

12     the functioning of the SAOs, how this would work; that is, that the SAO

13     being on the ground and more familiar with local needs, would essentially

14     nominate somebody and then turn to the ministry for actual implementation

15     and authorisation of the decision?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I'm actually not able

17     to find this document in e-court.  So we'd like to at least have a copy

18     e-mailed to us so we can follow other than just on the screen.  There may

19     be other pages of the document that are of interest to us in our

20     re-examination.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Reid is working on it.  I think I indicated the

22     nature of the problem before and how we do our best to surmount it, but

23     it continues to be a continuing problem.  I noted that at some point in

24     the earlier examination we temporarily overcame that uploading problem.

25     Currently it persists.

Page 35648

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I was wondering whether the witness could read it at

 2     all.

 3             Do you remember the question?  Can you answer the question,

 4     Mr. Simic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can read the document.  However,

 6     could I just see the date below?  I cannot see it now.  Could you scroll

 7     down a bit.  I can answer the question, though.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Sometime 21st of April, 1992.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   And, Mr. Simic, I'm not looking for a description of this

11     particular event but only if the relationship between the SAO government

12     and the ministry as reflected here is consistent with your understanding

13     of how that worked?

14        A.   I know what the relations were between the Municipal Assembly of

15     Bijeljina and this community and the appropriate ministries and

16     institutions, and I can explain that.  The Municipal Assembly proposed

17     certain people for certain positions, and they asked for the consent of

18     the relevant ministries and the acceptance of this proposal in some way

19     by the ministry.  I think that in this part the situation is similar.

20     Now, whether it was that way in the documents as well, I was not an

21     official of the region so I cannot say anything for sure, but I think

22     that the Assembly of the region did meet sometime around the 20th or the

23     21st of April, and probably this reply was sought on the basis of the

24     decision of the regional Assembly.  And I believe that you also have that

25     in the materials.

Page 35649

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this document and turn to one more; that's

 3     65 ter 24790.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we object.  We've never seen

 5     this document and it's very difficult to read.  We're looking at one

 6     page.  I don't see how it could be admitted without having been disclosed

 7     to us, but perhaps tomorrow we could look at it and let you know.  I

 8     think it would be better, actually, since we only have a few minutes left

 9     to not proceed with any more documents today.  I don't think it's fair to

10     make us look at documents at the same time as the witness that have never

11     been disclosed to us.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Well, that is very interesting in light of the

13     constant submission of documents of large length led live over our

14     objection about the concern.  So this is a one-page document that they

15     can't cope with.  I have no objection to continuing, but that should tell

16     us something about the nature of the process they've been pursuing.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive this.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6207, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And it's -- the logic also applies to the other

20     direction.  It's only five minutes.  Let's continue.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I called up 65 ter 24790.

22     That's an even smaller document.

23        Q.   Mr. Simic, this is a conclusion of the Serbian autonomous

24     district of Semberija and Majevica following its meeting of the

25     22nd of May, 1992, and it refers to the decision of the Serbian Republic

Page 35650

 1     of BH on general mobilisation and concludes that it shall be implemented

 2     and directs that the district secretary for defence and the municipal

 3     secretary for defence shall be tasked with implementing that decision.

 4     So this is a reflection of that same relationship in the other direction;

 5     right, Mr. Simic?  In the previous document we saw, the SAO turning to

 6     the ministry for implementation of some selections it had made, and here

 7     we see the SAO implementing the decisions of the Serbian republic;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   A decision cannot be carried out by way of a conclusion.  This

10     has to do with mobilisation, if I can read it, and this was done by

11     municipal secretariats of national defence.  Now, I don't know how the

12     region could be carrying out mobilisation.  What is written here is the

13     municipal secretariat of national defence.  They were the ones in charge

14     of that, not the region.  So that would be the conclusion.

15        Q.   Are you looking at the document, Mr. Simic?  It says -- it's not

16     so unclear.  There's a decision -- let's take it step by step.  The

17     Serbian republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina made -- that is, the republic

18     level made a decision on general mobilisation.  The SAO indicates that it

19     shall be implemented and then turns to the municipal secretariats for

20     that purpose; correct?

21        A.   Over here they're asking for the decision to be implemented.  At

22     the same time they charge the secretariats for national defence to carry

23     the decision out.  Now, I don't know the exact competences, who issues an

24     order for mobilisation.  I think it's military units, the military.  I

25     don't know to what extent the civilian authorities are in charge of that.

Page 35651

 1        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that, Mr. President, and it looks like

 3     we're out of time.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I'll object because I don't believe the

 5     witness has been able to comment on or confirm anything about the

 6     document.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  They're asking for the decision to be implemented at

 8     the same time they charge the secretariats for national defence to carry

 9     the decision out.  What could be more clear?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Anybody can read a document, but if the witness

11     confirms something in the document, then that should be the basis for

12     admission.

13             MR. TIEGER:  If he's not confirming it, then I'm impeaching him.

14     He's the one who raised the functioning of the SAOs in his statement,

15     Mr. President, so one way or another it should go in.

16             JUDGE KWON:  The rest of the day will calm down at bit further.

17     We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.  The hearing is adjourned.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

20                           March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.